By johninnc
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I recently received from our regular commenter Holly a couple of YouTube videos from Greg Laurie, a prominent false teacher and Lordship “Salvationist.”
This information was very well-timed to warn people of Laurie’s false doctrine, as Laurie is just days away from hosting the 29th annual SoCal Harvest, an “evangelical” event being held from August 17-19 in Orange County California. This year’s event is expected to draw between 90,000 and 100,000 attendees. The ExPreacherman ministry has warned of Greg Laurie’s false doctrine for years, but given the upcoming Harvest event, it is an opportune time to chronicle some of his teaching that contradicts the gospel.
Following are quotes from an article by Laurie entitled “How to Know You’re a Christian,” published by the BILLY GRAHAM Evangelistic Association on October 4, 2010:
Jesus essentially said the only way your sins are forgiven and to know you will spend eternity in Heaven is by putting your complete trust in Him. And there will be tangible results to show you have done that.
My comment: this is truth mixed with error. The Bible does not teach that “there will be tangible results to show you have done that.” Looking for those “tangible results” means looking away from Christ and to oneself for assurance of eternal life.
You see, the outward change is often without the inward. However, the inward change is never without the outward.
My comment: this means that if a person’s behavior doesn’t change, he does not have eternal life. This is a heretical teaching that means that no one could be sure he had eternal life unless he experienced some kind of behavioral change, which Laurie doesn’t quantify, nor specify.
By contrast, the Bible teaches that our assurance of eternal life comes from knowing we have believed in Jesus as Savior.
John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word , and believeth in Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.
Fine. But what does “believing” actually mean? The Bible says that even the demons from hell believe, and tremble at what they know very well to be true (James 2:19). Here are the elements of the Good News that we must believe and receive to become a born-again child of God.
My comment: Jesus did not die for the sins of demons. This is a classic Lordship “salvation” line of reasoning, meant to convince the listener that faith in Christ is not sufficient for eternal life, generally followed by changing the definition of the word “believe” to inherently include works. In so doing, they are preaching a false gospel.
Here are the elements Laurie includes:
Realize You Are a Sinner
My comment: so far, so good.
Repent of Your Sins
To repent means to “change” or to “turn.” It’s like driving down the highway, pulling a U-turn and heading the other direction. More than simply being sorry, it is a word of action. Many people feel remorse for their sin but never truly repent. Remorse is being sorry, repentance is being sorry enough to stop.
My comment: the Bible teaches that eternal life is a free gift, without cost or obligation to the recipient. Laurie’s definition means that works are required to receive eternal life. There is no good news here.
Believe and Receive Jesus Christ into Your Life
…You need to believe that, and ask Him into your life.
My comment: one does not need to “ask Him into your life” to receive eternal life.
Do it Now!
Good intentions are not enough. Agreeing with what I have said here is not enough. You must admit you are a sinner, repent of that sin, and put your faith in Christ.
My comment: Laurie is correct only in that agreeing with what he has said is not enough. Believing Laurie’s false gospel will not bring eternal life. Laurie preaches that we must believe in Jesus as our helper, whereas the Bible teaches that we must believe in Jesus as Savior.
Following is a sample of some of the pastoral endorsements for the Harvest events:
Dr. Tony Evans
Rick Warren
JD Greear
Chuck Swindoll
Billy Graham
Max Lucado
Ribert Morris
Dr. Ronnie Floyd
Dr. Robert Jeffress
The SoCal 2018 event also features several prominent “Christian” musicians (Passion, Mercy Me, among others).
All of these pastors and musicians are throwing (or have thrown) their support behind the false gospel being taught by Greg Laurie and are therefore participating in his bitter harvest.
If you would like to know what the Bible teaches about how to have eternal life, as opposed to the false gospel Greg Laurie preaches, please click here: The Gospel
Notes From A Retired Preacher 
Robin Rose,
You said: “There is a reason why so many well respected men of God commend Laurie’s servanthood, presentation of the Truth and his outreach. Perhaps it is you that is the heretic?”
That kind of reasoning is kind of refuted by His Word:
Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
For so did their fathers to the false prophets. Lk 6:26
For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. 2 Cor 10:12
Robin, thanks for swinging by.
You said my critique was circular, convoluted, and parsed, but you did not provide any evidence for your comment. As to my critique being based on limited excerpts from Laurie’s evangelistic messages, that is a true charge. I limited my critique to those parts of Laurie’s messages that I have read that contradict the biblical gospel.
The reasons why so many “respected men of God commend Laurie’s servanthood, presentation of the Truth and his outreach” are hard to know. But, their commendations intrinsically include Laurie’s false gospel, which means none of those who commend Laurie can be trusted with the gospel message, even if they seem to be otherwise trustworthy.
Robin, you said perhaps it is me that is the heretic? If you have read what we have written at expreacherman about how to have eternal life, and have compared it to what the Bible says about how to have eternal life, you should have found no disconnect. If you found such a disconnect, your comment does not reflect that.
With that said, please find linked below an explanation of the gospel message. I hope that you will read it and understand it.
Click to access English-Display-Pkg-2014.pdf
Your circular, convoluted, and parsed critique of the gospel is based on limited excerpts from Laurie’s evangelistic messages. There is a reason why so many well respected men of God commend Laurie’s servanthood, presentation of the Truth and his outreach. Perhaps it is you that is the heretic?
Heather
You initially said, “their life won’t ‘necessarily’ look any different.”
That’s right, it may not necessarily look different on the outside.
Where in His Word do we see Believers who don’t look like saved people?
It’s possible for a believer to not continue in the Word of Christ (Jn. 8:31-32)
It would have been possible for even the disciples to not abide in Christ (Jn 15:1-8) or He wouldn’t have warned them
It was possible for Paul to become disqualified in the race of the Christian life in rewards (1 Cor. 9:24-27), so any of us could.
It’s possible for believers to resist God’s chastening and correcting to the point of physical death (1 Cor. 11:30-32; James 5:19-20)
Possible for believers to stray from the faith (1 Tim 1:5-6)
Or have their faith made shipwreck (1 Tim 1:18-20)
It’s possible for believers to fall from grace, being back in bondage (Gal 5:3-4)
It’s possible for believers to consider His blood no big deal (a common thing) or to trample the Son of God under their feet(Heb 10:29)
Believers can Insult the Spirit of Grace (Heb 10:29)
Believers can Grieve the Spirit (Eph 4:30)
Believers can quench the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19)
Some even thought they could buy the power of the Holy Spirit – (Acts 8:18-19)
Believers can fall away from the faith (1 Tim 4:1-3)
Or deny the faith (1 Tim 5:8)
Cast off initial faith and follow Satan (1 Tim 5:12-15)
12) Stray from the faith by loving money (1 Tim 6:9-10)
Believers can love the world more than God and go back into it (2 Tim 4:10)
Believers can commit murder (2 Sam 11:14-17)
Believers can commit adultery (1 Cor 5:1-5; 2 Sam 11:2-5
Believers can become apostates – (1 Kings 11:1-10)
Stray from the faith when they don’t avoid false doctrine. (1 Tim 6:20-21)
Believers may not take heed to the doctrine, needing saved (1 Tim 4:16)
Believers can both deny Christ and also be faithless (1 Tim 5:8; 2 Tim 2:11-13)
Believers can have their faith overthrown (1 Cor 15:12; 2 Tim 2:14-18)
Act just like or worse than unbelievers (1 Cor 5:1; Rom 12:2; 1 Tim 5:8)
Conversely, wolves can look like believers on the outside and yet have many wonderful works (Matt 7:15-25)
John answered you on a lot of your error. You also completely misused 2 Cor 13:5 as most people who don’t understand context do. I pray you will be willing to hear more. I could answer more, but sadly I suspect it may be possible you will decide to be like the others before you. Who have simply cast God’s Word behind their back, (Ps 50:16-17), not even willing to take the time to consider the passages shared. I hope I am wrong, I really do.
Heather, thanks for swinging by.
As with all Lordship “salvationists,” your false arguments contradict scripture. And, in your case, your arguments contradict themselves.
You said: True believers will/should have visible changes in their lives.
My comment: Will and should are entirely different things. There are a lot of things that people should do, that they don’t necessarily do. Once you turn should into will, you have set the table for “fruit inspection,” which is one of the hallmarks of Lordship “salvation” (LS).
You said: Wouldn’t being “transformed by the Spirit” so that you are not “conformed to the world” imply actual, visible changes in your life (Romans 12:2)?
My comment: Perhaps so. But, let’s look at what Romans 12:2 actually says:
Romans 12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
You will note that it does not say “ye be.” It says “be ye.” That means that it is not automatic. If it were automatic, this verse would not be given as an instruction.
Most of your other arguments about signs of a “true Christian” are all predicated on the same false notion. Namely, that things the Bible teaches as instructions for Christians are automatic in the lives of Christians. If that were the case, none of these concepts would have been written as instructions for Christian living, because they would have been automatic.
You said: Are the spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit gives believers invisible, unable to be detected (1 Cor. 12:7 calls them “manifestations of the Spirit,” and manifestations are visible, by nature)?
My comment: Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues (languages), and faith healings were manifestations of the Holy Spirit’s power solely for the demonstration of God’s wisdom, purpose and power in the establishment of the early church. We believe these gifts have ceased to exist, now that scripture is complete. 1 Corinthians 13:8.
You said: To me, it sounds like a way of excusing believers who live just like they did before they got saved. And I’m not sure why you would try to push this idea.
My comment: This statement undermines your entire false argument. You have gone to great lengths to establish that people who don’t live differently than the non-believing world aren’t true believers, but then say we are excusing believers who live just like they did before they got saved. So, you are acknowledging that believers may choose to live just like they did before they got saved, after spending so much time saying that someone who is truly saved wouldn’t do that. Further, your impugning of our motives for keeping the gospel clear is a common attack from works salvationists.
You said: They are saying that it’s not enough to just SAY/THINK that you believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior (getting caught up in an emotional moment when you claim you made Jesus your Lord and Savior but really didn’t, when you were really attracted to the feel-good emotional/spiritual experience instead of to Jesus), but that you have to actually make Jesus your Lord and Savior, and that your life will eventually show if you did or not. And so if we don’t see any changes in our lives over time (like the ones in the verses above), then it might be because we never really made Jesus our Lord and Savior.
My comment: One does not become a Christian by making Jesus your Lord and Savior. A person becomes a Christian when they believe in Jesus as Savior. A person cannot make Jesus Lord. He is Lord of all. A person must believe in His Deity in order to understand and believe the gospel, but that in no way implies “putting Him on the throne of one’s life,” agreeing to follow Him in obedient discipleship, etc. Those things are God’s will for believers, but not requirements for receiving, keeping, nor proving that one has received eternal life.
You said: Of course, this doesn’t mean that good changes prove we are saved or that we “earn” salvation through them or that we lose salvation if we don’t continuously work to keep it. It just means that if we are truly saved, there will be evidence of it over time, even though we might stumble and fall along the way.
My comment: This statement is contradictory. If truly saved means evidence of eternal life, then lack of that evidence means not truly saved. Hence, your false argument is that lack of life change proves a person isn’t truly saved and life change kind of proves that they are.
Heather, in your 860 word comment, you never once used the word assurance. Your comment suggests that your source of assurance is not Christ alone, but Christ plus life change. I would ask you to reconsider that, and rest on these words:
John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
You said: The Bible does not teach that “there will be tangible results to show you have done that [believed].”
It sounds like you are saying that there won’t necessarily be any visible results/changes to show that someone got saved, that their life won’t necessarily look any different than from before they got saved.
Then what does the regeneration of the Spirit mean to you, if it doesn’t mean He helps believers change their lives? Wouldn’t being “transformed by the Spirit” so that you are not “conformed to the world” imply actual, visible changes in your life (Romans 12:2)? Will those who are filled with the Spirit (who realize they are a temple of the Holy Spirit) live lives that look the same as unbelievers (1 Cor. 6:18-20)? What are the “fruits of the Spirit,” and are they supposed to be invisible or visible (Gal. 5:22-23)? If the believer has been made a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17), does it or does it not mean there will be changes in their life, that they will or will not live differently than the old nature? Are the spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit gives believers invisible, unable to be detected (1 Cor. 12:7 calls them “manifestations of the Spirit,” and manifestations are visible, by nature)? Isn’t the love believers have for others meant to be visible (John 13:35), so that people will know we are His disciples? What does “live according to the Spirit” mean, if it doesn’t imply visible changes in a believer’s life (Romans 8:4)? Is our light supposed to shine so that others may see and glorify God (Matt. 5:16), or is it supposed to be undetected by others and ourselves? Wouldn’t “abstaining from the passions of the flesh” (1 Peter 2:11) be something others can see, that makes our lives look different from those in the world? Wouldn’t “walking in a worthy of the calling” also be visible (Eph 4:1)?
All of these will show up in visible ways in the life of a true believer. These changes are not meant to be invisible, undetectable. And I think you err in saying that the Bible doesn’t say there will be visible results of being saved (of believing), that it won’t necessarily lead to visible changes. To me, it sounds like a way of excusing believers who live just like they did before they got saved. And I’m not sure why you would try to push this idea.
I can understand if you mean to say that we are not saved BECUASE OF these changes/visible “evidences,” that we don’t do good, godly things TO BE saved. And I can understand if you are saying that believers won’t always live perfectly, that we will still stumble and sin at times but it doesn’t mean we are not saved.
And I don’t think all those preachers you listed are saying that our salvation hinges on or results from these good changes/evidences, just that if we are truly saved then we will see proof of it, positive changes in our lives as the Spirit guides us and helps us along the way. They are saying that it’s not enough to just SAY/THINK that you believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior (getting caught up in an emotional moment when you claim you made Jesus your Lord and Savior but really didn’t, when you were really attracted to the feel-good emotional/spiritual experience instead of to Jesus), but that you have to actually make Jesus your Lord and Savior, and that your life will eventually show if you did or not. And so if we don’t see any changes in our lives over time (like the ones in the verses above), then it might be because we never really made Jesus our Lord and Savior. (I think this is different from true Lordship Salvation where you believe you have to do good things to work for/keep/prove your salvation. But that’s different from believing that if you are truly saved then there will be changes as the Spirit guides you in life and transforms your mind and heart.)
Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. True believers will/should have visible changes in their lives. Of course, this doesn’t mean that good changes prove we are saved or that we “earn” salvation through them or that we lose salvation if we don’t continuously work to keep it. It just means that if we are truly saved, there will be evidence of it over time, even though we might stumble and fall along the way.
2 Cor. 13 talks about testing ourselves to see if we are really in the faith, about not doing the wrong thing, about doing the right thing, about not doing anything against the truth. Doesn’t all this imply examining our lives to see if we are really in the faith? But how can we test ourselves and examine our lives if there is not supposed to be anything visible to examine, any visible effects of being saved?
Once again, we don’t do these good/godly things to be saved. But true believers will show signs of these because they are saved.
Holly, I am hopeful that Travis is receptive to what the Bible teaches about how to have eternal life and does not continue to teach God’s will for Christians as conditions for receiving, keeping, or providing evidence that one has received, eternal life.
Travis, it’s not really about whether we ‘like’ someone’s words, but more about asking, ‘do they line up with what His Word says’. It is the importance of contending earnestly for the faith once delivered (Jude 3) — someone did it for us in our past. Being noble and searching the Scriptures to see if what a man is saying is so (Acts 17:11). It’s not a bad thing, but something to be praised for, if that is what one has done (checked man’s teaching against His Word).
You said with a smile, ‘love and obey’ (for there’s no other way), and I assume you meant the song ‘Trust and obey’, the song continues after, that there’s no other way, ‘to be happy in Jesus’.
Obeying is what believers SHOULD do. That is where our joy is full. Our fellowship with the Lord and others more intimate. Our light shining brighter for the world so they will glorify Him. We have example after example in His Word of believers who do not obey sadly. Some continually (like the carnal Corinthians) and some lost their physical life over grievous sin. This is not what He wants, we SHOULD be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). We SHOULD add to our faith so we will not be barren nor unfruitful (nor even forgetting our purged and forgiven sins, and so we will have an abundant entrance – rewards – into heaven) – 2 Pet 1:5-11. We SHOULD flee from all manner of evil, we SHOULD renew our minds, and we SHOULD be in the strong meat of His Word so we can better discern between good and evil (Heb 5:12-14).
Believers not doing what they should do in their walk is not an excuse to judge His servant and suggest they are not saved. (By the way Matt 7 addresses false prophets that try to justify themselves by boasting of all their wonderful works. Ps 94:4 says the workers of inquity boast in their works). But WE know it is not of works lest any man should boast.
There’s more I could say, but I pray the Lord might touch your heart to seek out in His Word what He is really saying about eternal life and how we receive it freely. And learn to differentiate between walking in the light and walking in the darkness as believers.
Love in Christ
Travis, obedient discipleship is not a litmus test for whether or not someone is “truly born again.”
Let’s look at John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
This verse says that assurance of eternal life is based solely on whether or not someone has believed in Jesus as Savior. There is no other dependable basis for assurance. That is the same for anyone, no matter how long they have been a Christian.
Your first message was not terse. It was boilerplate lordship salvation, as is your second message.
Travis, your words seem to indicate that you would doubt the truth of other peoples’ testimony of faith in Christ based, at least in part, on your judgment of their behaviors. If you were to honestly apply that judgment to yourself, and were to realize that God’s standard isn’t “getting better” or “sinning less,” you would have to conclude that you aren’t perfect either. And, if you “try to obey His commands” and fail, that doesn’t work either. Trying is a work!
So, why not rest your assurance on Christ and not on yourself? Whether you have eternal life, or not, your comments indicate some confusion about the gospel. As such, I encourage you to read the gospel booklet, linked below, that was also linked to the article to which you commented. I suspect that if you had thoroughly read that booklet at the time you read the article, most of the above would have already been addressed:
Click to access English-Display-Pkg-2014.pdf
Travis, welcome and thanks for your question.
I don’t like Greg Laurie’s words, because he preaches a false gospel substitute. The article to which you are commenting states that point clearly.
What do I think of Matthew 7:21? I believe it refers to the many who have relied on their works, in whole or in part, for eternal life. They have not done the will of the father in that context, which is to have believed, at some point in their lives, that all of the work necessary for their salvation was accomplished by Jesus.
These people recognize Jesus as Lord. They tout their works as the reason they should get into heaven. They are not condemned because of sinful lifestyles, or lack of sufficient good works. No, they are condemned because they have not believed in Jesus as Savior (see John 3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.). Please note that in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus did not refute their claims of good works. They were not His, because they did not believe.
Doing the will of the Father in terms of receiving the free gift of eternal life, means believing in Jesus as Savior.
John 6:29: Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
(Administrator’s note to all readers and prospective commenters: we are having some problems with the moderation feature at the website, so we are moving to manual moderation for all comments submitted. We appreciate your patience.)
The truth is that Jesus said that His disciples would be known by our love one for another. Therefore, if you are truly born again, you will have love for other Christians and almost surely will show that love through words and deeds.
If someone says they have believed in Jesus, but do not show love and do not try to obey His commands, I would doubt that they have truly believed. It is not that we are saved by our love or our obedience. We are saved through faith, but if we have faith, God has come to dwell within us and causes us to love and to obey (there’s no other way : ) ).
I hope you are well. I apologize for my first message being terse.
Dear Johninnc,
You seem not to like Pastor Laurie’s words, but what do you think of Jesus’ words?
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens.”
(Matthew 7:21)
Curtis, yes, it is God’s desire that believers grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus and that they live according to His will. And, like you said, it is not possible for anyone who has trusted in Jesus for eternal life to end up destined for Hell – no matter how much or how little they live their lives according to God’s will for them. Judas is an example of someone who followed Christ, but never believed.
Amen John
a saved soul who Trusted in Christ Jesus finished work.. 1 john 5 :11-13
Can loose their faith, shipwreck their faith but Never loose their salvation
we are to build our faith.
the bible no were teaches that saved souls children of God can live as they please apart from pleasing God.
A soul can be saved and be dead to the purpose God desires for them.
I have yet to find a passage in scripture were a soul trusted Christ Jesus for eternal life and died and went to Hell destined for lake of Fire.
Judas kissed the door of heaven and went to hell when he died
Curtis, these are all very good questions for Kenneth to contemplate. I am hopeful that he will do so and prayerfully consider the truth.
Helen, You are right that many are trusting in themselves these days – in fact it is what the overwhelming majority of churchianity is teaching these days. And, James 2 is very often a “go to” passage for those teaching a false gospel of works.
Anyone who has ever believed in Jesus as Savior has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited. In the case of someone who seems to be still looking to their works for assurance, it is either a believer who has taken his eyes off of Christ and put them back on himself or someone who has never believed.
If you are trusting in your works to get you to heaven, then you have not the righteousness of God and are still trusting in your own. Many are trusting in themselves these days, but Jesus is God who cannot lie. Only Jesus can pay for sin, because He is sinless, and since we have all sinned, we have all earned death, which is separation from God in the lake of fire. However, God so loved the world (John 3:16) that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Salvation is simple to understand because it requires simple faith in God’s record of His son:
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son – 1 John 5:10.
Look at the amazing assurance that scripture gives us when we trust the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God – 1 John 5:11-13
James is also a scripture often taken out of context to add works to the simplicity that is in Christ, when James 2 is speaking of having an active or practical faith. We can say we believe, but if we have no works to back up that belief, who is going to see that we are Christ’s? I encourage you to read this 19 page PDF booklet “Faith Without Works is Dead”
Click to access cucuzza-faith-without-works-is-dead.pdf
How much change Ken ?
Did you learn that from scripture or someone else teach you that ?
For how long do i for sake all my sin?
by what Standard do i use to prove to myself that i made a change and enough change to enter heaven ?
how Do i know i have eternal Life ?
I repent of all my sin
Jesus is Lord and master of my life.
I condemed my sin.
For saken my sin..
ok Now Am I perfect ?
a cheif of all sinners that i know i am .
no need to practice sin. I am an expert at sin…
a soul must be perfect to enter heaven.
Kenneth Childress, thanks for swinging by.
There are millions of sites on the internet where you will find people receptive to your false doctrine. This is not one of them.
The Bible says that anyone who has believed in Jesus as Savior has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.
James does not say that anyone who has eternal life WILL have works that show that faith. If good works were automatic in the lives of all believers, there would be no need to admonish believers to maintain good works. And yet we have Titus 3:8.
Can’t go on living a sinful life and be a Christian? Then why the admonishment in Romans 6:12 to believers to not let sin reign in their mortal bodies?
You seem to be very familiar with scripture, but I am concerned that you are interpreting it all through the lens of works being a requirement for eternal life. This focus undermines the gospel.
Kenneth, your comment makes me think that you have never really understood the gospel. A person must believe in Jesus as Savior, not just helper, in order to receive eternal life. Your focus on changed lives and works to the extent that you would write us to contradict our clear gospel teaching sounds more like the latter.
I have prayed for you. I would invite you to read the booklet linked below to help you understand the gospel:
Click to access English-Display-Pkg-2014.pdf
I don’t agree with many things these so called men of God say or preach. However what you are saying here is heresy! There must be a change in heart when we are saved by believing in Christ’s finished work! Gods word says we are over comers by the Blood of the Lamb and word of our testimony. That’s on earth not after we are in heaven. Also it says in James that having faith in the finished work of Christ that leads to salvation will also have works that show that faith. If you think you can go on living a sinful life and call yourself a Christian you’re sadly mistaken my friend are in danger of a Godless eternity in hell.
I think it is really important to pray for President Trump and other leaders, including that if they know Jesus as Savior they will grow in grace, and if not that they will hear (or read) the gospel clearly presented.
Chas, I keep praying that President Trump might hear the true gospel, or hear the verses or passages and be convinced by His Word. I pray for more laborers in the harvest in his life all the time. I pray for Trump and his family, and Pence, and Mitch McConnell and all those trying to at least stand for right and wrong.
Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
Joh 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
There will be believer souls in heaven that believed a messed up gospel . a Soul can Trust Christ Jesus for the free gift of eternal life and get mixed up Trying to work for their salvation and get mixed up tossed around of all kinds of bad doctrine .. The contrary is True as well there are souls who say they believed Jesus Christ for salvation but that’s not what they are Trusting in to get them to heaven .
The acid test is do you know you have Eternal Life .. ?
How do you know you have Eternal Life ?
Can God Lie ?
Are you perfect ? Must be perfect to go to Heaven
God can use a crocked stick to deliver a message .. How ever that’s no excuse to keep being a crocked Stick
Chas, understood and agree.
As do I, johninnc.
Btw, my post was not meant as a dig at the President. Far from it. I just find it alarming that so many false teachers have access to him. Still, the Lord can get through all the noise.
chas, agree that Greg Laurie is bad news that is unlikely to encourage anyone. I have continued to pray for our president.
Just read on a news site that President Trump will “tune in” to a Palm Sunday service at Greg Laurie’s church today. Great. Just great. It isn’t bad enough that he’s got Paula White as a “spiritual adviser”, now he’s hearing GL’s LS nonsense.
Before finding that article, I had read another that Trump is getting discouraged by the rising misery caused by Covid-19. The last thing he needs to hear is any LS false gospel. He really needs some biblical input from… somebody. Anybody.
1 Corinthians 4:6 comes to mind with those who defend their teacher or church above the Word:
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
Curtis:
That was a great point about sharing one’s church instead of sharing the Gospel.
“Sharing one’s church” instead of the Gospel is a hallmark of RC-ism. I’ve mentioned before a certain political news blog that I frequent, which is infested with Catholics. Some are restrained, but there are a couple that are always parading their “faith” before the rest of us as though it was a badge of supreme virtue (which I’m sure they think it is). They are often the most prolific posters as well. One of them posts in almost every thread, and can’t seem to get through a thread without making some reference to his Catholicism, often posting stuff like “Went to Mass today…” (After more than a year of it, I’ve been tempted to reply with something like “WHAT? You’re Catholic? Who knew?” but so far I’ve fought off the impulse successfully.)
I suppose one would expect that practice from a group that thinks they’re “The Mother Church”, but the tendency to evangelize for a church instead of Christ Himself seems to be part of the old nature. Gradually I became aware of a more subdued version of the same tendency at CCCM, and in “the CC Movement” in general. Some CC pastors try to discourage it (Chuck Smith did) and CC-ites may deny it of course (I did) but it’s there just the same. CC Riverside (Laurie’s church) seems to be arch-typical.
There are so many subtle forms of legalism, but they have one thing in common: they destroy the Gospel.
Curtis, all very good points.
I’m not sure what Greg Laurie’s objective is, but he is simply not preaching the truth about how to have eternal life.
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
“nor of the will of the flesh”
Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is IMPOSSIBLE , but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for mankind to save themselves . you must be perfect to enter heaven . so does whosoevers teaching/doctrine make a soul perfect ?
Nicodemus you MUST be born again …
ok listen to all you like to whosoever does the teaching make you perfect ?
were you going when you die ?
is heaven a gift for the guilty or a reward for the righteous ?
im talking about going to heaven not earning reward .
a recent witnessing opportunity I was sharing the gospel they wanted to know where i went to church ? . then wanted me to listen to pastor greg.
to wit i explained I’m sharing the gospel and you are trying to share your church .. going to church is that how a soul goes to heaven ? .. they didn’t know what to say
Justice, thanks for swinging by. In the absence of March Madness, I’ll borrow one of its phrases. You are “one and done,” as far as our willingness to post any more of your comments here. I encourage you, however, to stick around and read and learn.
We do not “twist” what Laurie says. We quote what he says, so that we can warn others to mark and avoid him.
As we clearly pointed out in our article, using Laurie’s own words, Laurie says one must “repent of sins” in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. And, so that we don’t have to read his mind, Laurie spells out what he thinks that means:
To repent means to “change” or to “turn.” It’s like driving down the highway, pulling a U-turn and heading the other direction. More than simply being sorry, it is a word of action. Many people feel remorse for their sin but never truly repent. Remorse is being sorry, repentance is being sorry enough to stop.
There you have it. In Laurie’s own words.
Now, let’s contrast Laurie’s words with those of someone more credible:
John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Does Jesus reference any requirement to sin less? Does He ask us to examine ourselves to determine whether or not we sin less in order to have assurance that we have passed from death unto life?
I invite you to read the booklet linked below:
Click to access English-Display-Pkg-2014.pdf
Just to clarify, you’re totally off. I’ve been skeptical of Greg, but doing tons of research and watching his sermons, yall take what he says and twists it. When laurie talks about faith and works, hes not saying what you have said. He means there will be signs that you’re a Christian, and he doesn’t say”you become sinless”. He says you sin less. Because when the holy spirit is in you, he is there in one of many ways, to help you sin less against God. Man you guys twist so many things. How?
Greg Laurie has basically become a mini-Graham. Different message depending on the day. A mixed bag, I think sadly they try to include a bunch of different styles and language from different ‘evangelists’ vs. using the Word.
Chas, thanks for sharing your experience. I agree that LS, whatever the brand, is just warmed over RCC.
johninnc, fryingpan9, and Michael…
Thanks for your messages. I can relate. Back in the mid ’70s the teachings of Greg Laurie always did leave me with a strange, burdensome pang in my stomach (which he might label as “conviction”). For a long time I couldn’t put my finger on it, but something always seemed wrong so after a while I just avoided him. There were a few other “teachers” at CC and on the radio who would leave me with the same pang. Over the years they have proven–one by one–to have been teaching what boiled down to LS. Laurie always was good at pushing the “prove your faith” buttons, and it appears he hasn’t lost his touch.
Clueless LS-ers (those teaching some form of LS without knowing it) are–I think–the majority of LS-ers. The “real Christians just naturally show it” idea is drilled into people by “evangelicalism” in general. Calvary Chapel-ites (of which I once was) are steeped in it. Consequently, the implication that anyone who doesn’t show any “fruits of salvation” sooner or later “probably isn’t saved” looms over the typical CC-ite constantly. The need to be “saved by grace” is stated often (at least it was in Chuck Smith’s day), but the usual LS qualifiers are added to it unconsciously in each mind. The resultant pressure to “serve” or to “turn from sin” in some tangible way to show one’s “commitment” is pervasive.
In my view at the time, it beat the Roman Catholic treadmill, but after a while I wondered if I hadn’t traded the RCC +one for a more subtle, less well-defined version. Ironically, Pastor Chuck’s admonition to study the Bible myself played a big part in my deliverance from CC’s peculiar brand of LS. The true Gospel is liberating.
fryingpan, I think you are right that many purveyors of LS are unaware that they are teaching error. There is always hope that they will turn from their false teachings to the truth of the gospel.
Hi Michael,
So glad you found this blog. I found it almost exactly 7 years ago after doing research on Francis Chan and Ray Comfort. Now those guys REALLY creeped me out. I wasn’t hip to how false Greg Laurie’s message was till after I came here, interacted, studied a lot and then got clued in by a great commenters here. I think his name is Abe.
Obviously we can’t read minds and hearts, but I suspect Greg, like many Lordship Salvationists of the Calvary “bend” don’t even realize they’re on the wrong side of doctrine.
Michael, we’re glad you found us and that the articles helped clarify the false gospel that Greg Laurie is teaching and how it differs from scripture.
For some reason, I always found Greg Laurie creepy. I never really had an exact reason, because I always listened in the car, and never really sat and listened to him thoroughly. Your website here cleared it all up. Greg Laurie is working for and with the adversary. Nothing creepier than that.
Monica, your comment is both distressing and encouraging to me.
It is distressing to me, because it is, in and of itself, the fruit of a false gospel message, and because you seem to want to teach that false message to others.
It is encouraging to me, because I have the opportunity to contrast it with the truth of the gospel, and thereby help you and other readers to understand the difference between the truth of the gospel and the false doctrine that you are repeating.
First, the Bible teaches that faith without works is dead (non-productive). Greg Laurie teaches that faith without works is non-existent. There is a huge difference. If works were required to show evidence of eternal life, then one would have to look to his works to have assurance of eternal life. And, one could not know he had eternal life until those works manifested themselves in some irrefutable way. But, the Bible does not tell us to look to our works for assurance.
John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Is there any mention of works here? NO! Is the source reliable? YES!
Second, Greg Laurie teaches that you have to be sorry enough for your sins to stop doing them in order to have eternal life. This is works for salvation, plain and simple. If you have to be sorry enough for your sins to stop doing them in order to have eternal life, that would seem to be an all or none proposition. One must be PERFECT to have eternal life. That perfection can only come from Christ’s imputed perfection. Because no one is perfect, Monica, Greg Laurie’s false requirement to stop sinning to gain eternal life cannot be true.
Revelation 21:27: And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Third, you said: You will know who is or who isn’t a Christian by their fruits (aka works). We as Christians do not do “good works” to be saved but because we are saved! It’s evidence of our salvation!
By contrast, the Bible says that you will know false prophets by their fruits (Matthew 7:16). What this means is that false prophets teach false doctrine. Their fruits are those people that errantly adopt, or repeat their false doctrine. So, your comment is the fruit of a false prophet.
Monica, based on all of the “Christian leaders” who have endorsed Greg Laurie’s events, large numbers of people would agree with your error. But, should we trust the majority about how to have eternal life, or trust God? The majority does not rule. God does!
Monica, I would encourage you to read the booklets linked below. If, after having read them, you have legitimate questions, we will consider posting and answering them, If, on the other hand, you are here simply to “straighten us out,” we will not be posting any more of your comments.
Click to access cucuzza-faith-without-works-is-dead.pdf
Click to access English-Display-Pkg-2014.pdf
I think Greg Laurie teaches “faith without works is dead”. There are a lot of professing “Christians” these days. You will know who is or who isn’t a Christian by their fruits (aka works). We as Christians do not do “good works” to be saved but because we are saved! It’s evidence of our salvation!
Barbara Panzo, (I hope this length of response will be o.k.)
I certainly agree with Johninnc, but I also relate to your thinking in my past. After having been a believer for probably about 40 years (I was very young when I first believed), I thought similarly to you.. There ‘should’ be change and ‘IF’ someone hadn’t done ‘this’ or stopped ‘that’, then I thought (and unfortunately likely said) that they probably weren’t saved.
How much sorrow I have experienced from that behavior and stinking thinking in my past. I probably made many young one stumbles for a time and never got to ask for forgiveness from one that I recall (my husband who was terminally ill).
I am so thankful to the Lord that He directed my steps as I started back towards Him, acknowledging Him again in more of my ways. It was different than the acknowledgment I thought I was giving before, it was a place of being beat up and exhausted by this kind of doctrine. And the reason wasn’t just that my husband was ill and I had 8 children and had to work to support everyone. Always living in some fear had me tormented. Fear that I wasn’t ‘truly’ saved. And the best thing He comforted me with is that fear was not from Him. I was to learn it was from all this faulty doctrine that drove me away from Him (yes, even in church and Bible studies many hearts are still far away).
I started to get into the Word in a different way, with a different attitude and needing His help. I was reminded I really was to revere and respect it (tremble) and His approval became important to me above any other thing/person. I decided that I didn’t want to somehow be repeating tradition or error that I learned along the way, continuing to ask the Lord to show me in His Word. I had to let go of my pride, God was resisting me and I didn’t even know it. Later I was to see people stating things I had previously thought in my head (if it wasn’t things they did or didn’t do, then it was how long they were a Christian, what seminary they attended, what theological terms they knew, how many Bible studies, what church they attended, etc.). What dung… (smh in sadness), that is not what matters to Him, and in presenting the gospel, nor does wisdom of words or excellency of speech.
We can never know we are saved by some automatic change in our lives. Or any subjective opinion of how good we are doing. We will soon be self-condemned if we have any humility left. As John said, God’s way is perfect, and the only way we can know we possess eternal life, the only way, is if we have believed His testimony of His Son. And if we add something else to believing whether before, during or after — we might not even be saved, or we have become bewitched and are useless. That was an eye opener for me, and another many years of regret for me after my husband died. Oh the Lord was so faithful to forgive me, but I started going to all my children (and any friends or family) and explained how I had been wrong, and showed them in His Word what the truth was. That there were baby and carnal Christians living terribly without any feeling of remorse. That there were Christians who had believed and should have been teachers by that time but were considering defecting basically and going back under the old way. I told them the truth and gave them the simple tools.
I pray you will see it too, and understand that we definitely want to encourage others to live for Christ. But we also want to defend the clarity of the gospel.
Fryingpan, all excellent points!
Eternal life comes by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. And, while it may seem spiritual to examine ourselves or others for evidence of eternal life, it really isn’t.
It can’t be “free will” if by accepting Jesus as lord and savior there WILL BE evidence of repentance.
The only evidence of “repentance” required is that of the sinner, knowing his or her hopeless condition (condemned already) and putting all of their faith and trust in Christ’s finished work on the cross for their salvation.
We either believe John 3:18 and John 3:36 or we don’t.
The only “smell test” as to whether or not one is saved is what that person has believed and what their faith is in.
We can either look upon the finished work on Calvary and our belief that God raised Jesus on the 3rd day, or we can look to the condition of our own hearts, our willingness to obey, how serious we are (or were and are once again) in our commitment to Christ, how sincere we were when we “first believed”, etc.
The list of things we can put our faith in the are NOT part of the gospel is quite long. And SO much of it SOUNDS so spiritual and “Christian”.
Barbara Panzo,thanks for swinging by.
Your comment is self-contradictory, because it mixes those things that Christians should do with those things that a person must do to establish that he has received eternal life.
You said: If you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior there will be evidence of repentance.
My comment: When one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior, he immediately has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited, irrespective of how he lives his life. You say there will be “evidence of repentance.” How much? What sort? Since the standard for entering God’s Kingdom is perfection, then “life change” simply won’t cut it. I would ask you this: If you aren’t 100% perfect in your thoughts, attitudes, and actions may I assume that you don’t have eternal life? What if your life changes, showing this so called “evidence of repentance” and then changes for the worse? May I assume that you were never a “true Christian”? Can you see how slippery this slope of yours really is?
You said: All of the Apostle Paul’s writings caution us to stay away from evil and to live our lives wholly and completely for Jesus Christ.
My comment: Did it ever dawn on you that Paul’s cautionary writings would only be necessary if Paul thought that some Christians might not stay away from evil and might not live their lives wholly and completely for Jesus Christ? If this “evidence of repentance” automatically manifests itself in all believers, why would any cautionary writings be necessary?
Barbara, our obedience and faithfulness as Christians is important, and is God’s will for us. But, it has nothing to do with whether or not we have eternal life. Making obedience and faithfulness automatic conditions to prove that one has eternal life is what Lordship “salvation” is all about.
You said: And that’s what we all should desire as Christians.
My comment: Exactly! You notice what you did there? You used the word should. We have no quarrel with that.
John, Ex Preacher Man I think you’re way off. Greg Laurie’s got it right. If you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior there will be evidence of repentance. If we love God and want to please Him then we keep his Commandments. All of the Apostle Paul’s writings caution us to stay away from evil and to live our lives wholly and completely for Jesus Christ. John chapter 15 tells us to abide in the Vine, Jesus Christ. If we truly love God, then we must allow the resurrection power of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit to transform us. That’s not our works. That’s simply a willing heartKama a heart like David’s. In Psalms David says cleanse me oh Lord, forgive my sins and my transgressions, create in me a new heart. And that’s what we all should desire as Christians. A desire to be Sanctified and holy because he is Holy . God will change us and transform us. He will complete the work that He started in us. But we must be willing. Using our free will, our responsibility is to make a decision for Jesus Christ. It’s a condition of the heart. It is not works.
“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Romans 3:20 KJV
kr2726, actually, repentance is not turning from sin. It is a change of mind.
Turning from sin is a work.
Jonah 3:10: And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
kr2726, thanks for stopping by. I will post your two comments, which are attacks on the gospel, and respond to them. You will not be welcome to commenting further, because you are here to negate us, rather than to learn.
Acts 26:20: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
This verse does not say that works prove repentance. It says that works are “meet for repentance,” which means “worthy of repentance” (see Matthew 3:8 and Luke 3:8, in which the two phrases are used interchangeably).
One must be perfect to enter into heaven. The only way that perfection can be received is by imputation – receiving the imputed perfection of Christ by believing in Him alone as Savior.
You might benefit from reading the article linked below:
Additionally, repentance, turning from sin, is NOT a “work of the law.” This redefinition of repentance as a work of the law is Satanic, and was foretold the Spirit in 1 Tim. 4 and 2 Tim.4, when people will heed the doctrines of demons and gather around themselves teachers who say what their itching ears want to hear.
The apostle Paul said in Acts 26:20, that “men should repent and turn to God, and PROVE THEIR REPENTANCE by their DEEDS”–but you falsely say that is “works salvation.”
Jason, agree.
Brad, this was one of the late Jack Weaver’s “go to” verses to refute LS.
Romans 11:6 makes it so clear that grace and works do not mix.
“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
Romans 11:6 KJV
Dylan, not exactly.
Lordship “salvation” is the mistaken belief that internal life requires faith in Christ plus the performance, promise, or evidence of works.
Turning from one’s sinful ways to God is not Lordship “salvation.” Believing that one must turn from sinful ways, in addition to trusting in Christ as Savior in order to receive eternal life is Lordship “salvation.”
Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
See our definition of Lordship “salvation” below:
So lordship salvation is turning from ones ways and turning from your sinful ways to God? Repentence is a change of mind that agrees with God that one os a dinner and agrees with what Jesus did on the cross. Please respond
Shane, I didn’t say the Bible leads to group think.
Shane, that’s why we see so many that follow the “men u script” vs. following the manuscript.
Johninnc, I think you’re right about the four categories. A lack of even basic knowledge of the Bible seems to be the culprit, at least in my mind. Very few that wear the Christian label, are able to discern virtually anything using the Bible, and are actually antagonistic and mocking of those that attempt to.
Shane, people who participate in the Laurie event, including the bands, fit one of four categories, as far as I can tell:
1. They are ignorant of the false gospel that Greg Laurie teaches
2. They are ignorant of the gospel and believe what Greg Laurie teaches
3. They are not discerning enough to tell the difference between the gospel and its counterfeits
4. They know that what Greg Laurie teaches is a false gospel, but growing their own audiences and selling their wares outweighs any concern they might have
I actually don’t see the Bible as leading to groupthink at all. Not at all. Because every individual person stands alone. I know what I believe about every topic.
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
This was Peter talking after the multitudes left. I personally believe that we’re all in that situation. I am saying to Jesus, “Lord, to whom shall I go?”. It’s not changing my decision, even if there isn’t even one other person that believes.
I am certain there are things I believe about the Bible, that would be rejected by some here. They’re not salvation topics, so, it won’t deal any death blow to fellowship (I’m assuming). But even on those topics, the number of adherents won’t change my mind. The Bible has taught me that kind of individual thinking.
Any group naturally encourages group-think. That’s the nature of what a group is. “I’m a part of this group, so I must believe, do and say as they do”.
Even the community on this website (as an example) is a group that engages is group-think. We believe we are correct in what we believe because the Bible has proven itself in so many ways to be Divinely inspired and not just another bunch of words on a bunch of pages like every other book is.
Group-think can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on what the group believes or how the group behaves; and an individual can remain a member of a group even whilst rising above it out of it’s group-think mentality towards being an individual thinker instead – also known as the leader(s) of the group. These people, now no longer being bound by group-think, can choose to either remain a part of the group they were in or leave it.
Bringing this back to religion, which Jesus was staunchly opposed to so I’m not sure why people immediately associate Him with it, there are so many groups in false Christianity that one has to wonder if Satan has influenced things in this direction to capitalize on the group-think mentality and a person’s sense of “wanting to belong”. Protestantism simply fragmented Christianity into so many pieces that essentially every individual became their own church in a sense, thus why there’s so much disagreement and contention among false and true Christians about what the Bible teaches. There’s so many different interpretations of the Bible today that it would be a great challenge to even put a number on how many there are.
God is not the author of confusion, yet we see confusion virtually everywhere in our world in all viewpoints and topics.
Satan is the author of confusion and has devised millions upon millions of different ways to keep people away from the simplicity in Christ.
One of the biggest assurances I have these days of the Bible being the Word of God, upon studying and seeing all of these things, is all the confusion, contentions, misleading, deceiving, misinterpreting, attacking, lying and outright ignoring the Bible. I look at a world that is clearly for the most part, completely against the Bible in one way or the other, then I see a world in shambles in so many ways.
When I applied God’s will to my life, my life improved greatly, because His will is good and meant to help humanity, not hurt it.
Whenever I neglected God’s will in my life and lived for the flesh/world instead, things would go wrong frequently and I would suffer because of it.
Brad, yes, with all due respect to your mother, catholicism is certainly a groupthink organization. And their underlings, the megachurch celebrity pastors, are also operators in groupthink. Those that follow the celebrity pastors will defend the pastors far more than they would ever defend the Bible. So the definition of “few”, I cannot say in terms of actual numbers. But I can look at how many people in my 20 years of experience in all of this, have told me the true Gospel. It is very few indeed. Perhaps some of them believed the true Gospel at one point in the past, and have now deviated (which would make them still saved of course). That would bring the number up some. But it’s still a small number, at least in my personal experience. I rarely find someone that will describe the Gospel to me without works of some sort added. All the more reason to get the word out daily.
Shane, I once asked my mother (who is a Catholic) whether she considered 2.2 billion people (the estimated worldwide population of the Catholic church last I check) to be “few” or “many”.
I asked her this because she agrees with the Bible verses where Jesus says that many will go to Hell and few will go to Heaven.
She stumbled over herself in answering this question (because she is bound by the group-think of Catholicism) telling me 2.2 billion people is the “few” because there’s more than 2.2 billion people on the planet. She actually told be 2.2 billion people is “few”.
Now I know her, I suspect she knew her answer was wrong or at least faulty. But she’s already a member of a group and anything that challenges that group’s beliefs she immediately feels she must stand up for, no matter how factual the challenge to her group is.
Holly, yes, the bands. The music bands are always ecumenical, always NAR-connected somehow, and all of that of course also leads to the vatican/jesuit/catholic umbrella. It’s a “crusade”, after all, and catholicism is lordship salvation just like they are. Birds of a feather……. There’s nothing to receive from it in terms of truth, and Greg Laurie, his buddy Rick Warren, and all the supposed “evangelicals” are not Bible believers, they don’t preach the Gospel, and they are just some of a world full of deceivers. The way is narrow, and few find it.
Holly thanks for correcting me on the amount of commandments in the Old Testament. We see yet another Bible prophecy occurring in that the Jewish (and many others for that matter) people are perishing for lack of knowledge.
I was talking about group-think and rising above the group on a purely psychological level. Certainly Jews fall into the issue of group-think but so do thousands of other groups in religious/non-religious areas of the world. Psychologically it is detrimental to the individual because if the group becomes wrong or is wrong, so are they. Unless of course they choose to rise above the group-think mentality and begin thinking independently for themselves.
Having an open mind is important as well. Always keeping in mind that you could be wrong about something you believe allows it to be easier for someone to correct you if it turns out that you are indeed wrong about that something.
Holly, sadder still are those who never even believe the gospel because they have been inundated with so many false gospels like those promoted by BGEA.
John, I was reading the comments from the BGEA that you posted, And there will be tangible results to show you have done that.
There were plenty that never showed ‘tangible results’ sadly that were taken out by the Lord. Plenty that didn’t even show a decent conscience (such as the church of Corinth that didn’t mourn over grievous sin, they didn’t put the incestuous adulterer out, nor the drunkard or railer, and took each other to human courts.) Paul said they looked worse than the world such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles.
I was having a conversation with one of the ladies from my Bible study group, and she told me of a time she talked to a woman in the parking lot and she told her that Jesus loved her. She explained she needed to hear that, and my friend went over the gospel with her. The woman said she believed. She told her she had done some bad things in her marriage and that the church was calling her in to ascertain whether she was even saved. My friend asked what church, and she found it was a Calvinist one, and she was able to also explain the error of Calvinism and Load-ship and how people errantly look to themselves for assurance of salvation, which will eventually lead you to believe you are not saved if you are honest at all. In turn others look to your works to somehow prove you are one of them.
It was typical of the Billy Graham statement above…sigh.
Brad, the Bible says my people perish for lack of knowledge. That there is a famine in the land for the hearing of God’s Word.
There are 613 commandments of the law, and yet most Jews do not know the Old Testament even a little. If they did, they would realize that no one was ever justified by the law. The just have always lived by faith. If they listened to His Word, they’d know what the prophets said about the Messiah. The timing of the Messiah. The lineage He would come through. Just knowing Daniel’s prophecy alone would help ascertain who the Messiah was.
It wasn’t group mentality, because we do need fellowship and accountability.
It can be a bad thing if the group is listening to men over the Word of God. We need to individually be Berean’s and know His Word, and check to see if what another person says is what the Word is saying.
Shane, I recently saw some new activity on Laurie too. I noticed that especially where the crusade is held, people are terribly excited about the ‘bands’ that will be there. I hope they will be so deafened by the band they won’t ‘hear’ the false gospel. It’s so sad to me.
Lordship Salvation is just a form of legalism. It’s interesting that the Jews believe the Old Testament is inspired, but not the New Testament. Therefore they believe they must keep 618 rules contained in the Old Testament in order to go to Heaven.
Facts:
– 100% of Jews do not keep all 618 commandments perfectly
– The Old Testament says that Abraham was saved by believing
– Deuteronomy 27:26 states “Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.”
On the last 2 facts, do Jews willingly ignore these Old Testament teachings that directly contradict legalism? Or do they make unwarranted logical leaps to change what these Old Testament teachings mean in order to not have to consider they may be wrong?
These are rhetorical questions. People who are members of a group are very prone to falling into a group-think mentality. Which means wherever the group goes, they blindly go too.
Standing on our own two feet as individuals above the group is important.
Jason, agree that false gospels such as LS are a huge danger to salvation.
Many people involved in the political #walkaway movement may be involved in this rally. I am afraid that not all is well. When it comes to salvation, LS is infinitely more dangerous than Antifa.
Just so everyone is clear on rules of engagement for commenting at ExPreacherman, please read first section of below link:
https://expreacherman.com/comments/
Shane, I had heard about that. I support his freedom of speech, but not his false gospel.
Back to Greg Laurie…… you may have heard about the whole billboard thing where his advertisement was stopped and so on. And now there is a big “rally around Greg Laurie” movement supposedly going on. So brace yourself for more Greg Laurie shoved in your face, meaning, more false gospel shoved in your face.
Holly, thanks for your postscripts to the discussion!
I think everyone here has good intentions, even if we don’t always agree on all things.
I was troubled by the Ironside quote, because I thought that it could lead to unhealthy introspection, and that it wasn’t scriptually based, but based on his purported feelings and experience.
And, with that, I will once again close the discussion.
I hadn’t read all the comments when I posted to Brad. So I’ll just finish by saying, sometimes we want to make a point so badly we aren’t happy when another disagrees. But I don’t see Ironside making his point by Scripture in that one post, and I am troubled when I know it doesn’t align with other Scripture.
I personally appreciate a firm stand on these matters, because soon they can drift off to foolish arguments if we’re not careful, subverting the hearers.
There is one way to have assurance. Believe what God said. The Word was written ahead of time for our comfort in these things (Romans 15:4), so that we would KNOW we possessed eternal life (1 John 5:9-13) BUT, it is because we have believed God’s Testimony of His Son, not because we feel or do or desire certain things. We still have evil dwelling within us, and the minute we start looking at our desires or actions as part of our assurance we’re in a bad place.
I have been saved since I was a young girl. What happened along the way was some tainting, it happened in some of the seminary and also Christian High School teaching. It happened in my search for ‘experience’, and then my desire to move closer to Christ, and this is where I got off track.
I stopped looking at the truth of God’s Word, and started looking at myself. I want to encourage you Brad as a new believer, to continue in His Word. Try to stay away from too many men’s writings. And when you do read someone like Ironside, don’t judge what he says to be true by any emotion or experience in your life, but be noble and look to the Word to see if that is what it says.
If we don’t, we’re going to trip up. And we’re going to be easily offended when others tell us what someone is saying is not so. And not so willing to listen sometimes. If what they are saying is not backed up by Scripture that would be one thing.
John is exhorting you to get your assurance from what God has said alone. Ironside is saying he did that in the beginning. That is troubling, we should do it throughout our entire lives, and His Word should be the only source for any assurance, because His Word is truth.
I apologize if I continued if I should have, but I’m a little disappointed at the tone you have used here towards John. John is standing on God’s Word as truth and trying to patiently explain it, and it seems that you’re not quite liking his answer. There is a time for us to humble ourselves under His mighty hand and submit to each other.
Admins and moderators have hard jobs, and need to do the hard thing sometimes so that truth remains. We need to be praying for them, and if we think they err, how about provide the Word of God and trust the power of it? We shouldn’t provide men’s quotes and our experiences as truth.
As far as Eph 2:10, again, we SHOULD walk in them. We SHOULD add to our faith (2 Pet 1:5-9). We SHOULD be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), the Bible is full of plenty of things believers SHOULD do and it also records plenty of things believers did that they SHOULD NOT do.
In Christ, Holly (and I won’t post anymore).
Brad, you know it’s funny. I read “Full Assurance” and also the Eternal Security of the believer, probably about 15 years ago. Then I found much helpful in the books, and probably didn’t realize some of the subtle traditional error I now see here and there, probably leftovers from his Holiness days.
Starting with the first line: “While at the beginning I rested everything for eternity upon the naked Word of God”…
We should always rest our eternity upon His Word, what God has said, not what we think God’s Word says in between the lines.
“Let us look carefully at some of these corroborative proofs which assure our hearts before Him.”
“First the believer becomes conscious of an inborn love for the will of God. ‘Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected; hereby know we that we are in him’ (1 John 2:3-5). It is not natural for the unbeliever to delight in the will of God.”
I’m a little troubled by the way he handles 1 John, because we are assuring our hearts regarding whether we are walking in darkness or light. Whether we are loving our brothers or not. Whether we are being obedient. Whether we are in sin that needs confessed. Whether we are in fellowship. That is what 1 John is written for, and when we are doers of the Word and not just hearers, we know that our joy is going to remain full (as is the purpose of the book) and so will our fellowship be good with God and other men. Some see 1 John as a test of salvation, others as a test of our obedient walk with God. I see it as the later.
Ironside says:
The unsaved man loves his own way and resents being asked to yield his will to another.”
Trouble is what he is quoting is opinion, not His Word.
The Corinthians loved their own way. This should read the ‘carnal man’ loves his own way and resents being asked to yield his will to another. If you read through 1 & 2 Corinthians, you will find that they RESENTED being told anything by Paul and were brattily questioning his apostleship. Look to the Word to see if what someone is saying is correct, we can always give opinion that may not line up with His Word.
Read Romans 6, you’ll see a whole lot of instruction to the carnal to the necessity of them yielding themselves to God, NOT yielding themselves or their body members to unrighteousness etc.
Brad, I will address your points, and then I will move on.
1. I made the comment about the Holy Spirit’s activity in believers’ lives to affirm that, even if someone falls into sin, that doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit hasn’t been active in their lives. This was not to quote you, nor contradict you.
2. I made the comment about not looking to life change for confirmatory assurance of eternal life, because my reading of the Ironside quote with which you began this whole conversation was that it could lead to people thinking that they should begin to look for the subjective manifestations that Ironside cited. And, looking for such subjective manifestations would be introspective, and self-focused, rather than Christ-focused.
I continue to be concerned about the Ironside quote for that reason.
Whether or not that was your point, you introduced the quote, and asked me what I thought about it.
3. I did not put words in your mouth, and I replied to what you wrote to the best of my ability.
4. My point regarding having patiently responded to your previous comments was meant to remind you that I have spent a great deal of time with your comments, so I was highly surprised that you would accuse me of censoring and misrepresenting you today, when you have expressed no such concern previously.
Brad, our mission at ExPreacherman is to promote and defend the gospel. I believe that to continue this discussion will be distracting from that mission, and that is why I requested that we stop. It was not to censor you, nor misrepresent you.
Please note that I will not publish any more comments from you on this subject.
You said,
“Brad, I am not going to engage you any further on this topic.”
You said,
“Further, when a believer slips into sin, that in no way negates the ministry of the Holy Spirit in that person’s life.”
I never said that.
You said,
“However, if someone is looking at a changed life for confirmatory assurance of eternal life, I believe he is looking in the wrong place, and will likely end up with diminished assurance.”
That wasn’t my point.
Disagreement is fine as it spurs fruitful discussion. Which helps everyone understand things better. But you put words in my mouth and replied to a point I was not making as though I was.
We are all imperfect so I do not condemn you, nor will I ever do so. I am providing constructive criticism.
I know there have been instances on this website with people you have not allowed to express fully their ideas. If someone is stuck is lordship salvation and won’t budge I condone the censoring of their posts because we should mark and avoid them. They are wolves among the sheep herd.
I appreciate that you allow me to express my ideas and forgive me if I am wrong, but when you said,
“I have posted all of your comments for almost two years, and have patiently responded.”
It sounds to me like you were inclined to impatience on some of the posts I have made and had to choose to be patient with it. I understand this for my earlier posts where I was still on the milk of the Word but at this stage is that still the case? Because I am now on the meat of the word.
Please though correct me substantially if I am erring with any of this. I do not want a debate but I do want to set the record of my intentions straight.
As I said, none of us are perfect, we all make mistakes in a variety of ways. We all need a Savior and that Savior is Jesus Christ.
Brad, I have allowed you to freely express your ideas. I have posted all of your comments for almost two years, and have patiently responded.
Your words are all there, as are my responses. I did not misrepresent your points, I disagreed with some of them.
BIG DIFFERENCE
You misrepresented my points multiple times but then close the conversation.
See the problem there?
You can choose to not approve this comment because you declare the “Discussion is Closed”.
But that is censorship of a viewpoint you are misinterpreting of mine and I now have no avenue publicly (on this website) to correct the record.
Brad, I am not going to engage you any further on this topic.
There are plenty of people who do not have eternal life who have given up bad habits.
The Ironside vignette I gave is illustrative of why I am not comfortable quoting him. If someone’s salvation testimony is that “Jesus changed my life,” then he is implying that receiving eternal life entails allowing Jesus to change one’s life, with the consequence of being able to observe such a change.
This is the problem that I have with the Ironside story that I mentioned, and why I am more than a little leery of Ironside. Whether or not you are comfortable with him is up to you.
And, just to clarify my earlier statement – I have no way of knowing whether you, or anyone else is looking at a changed life for confirmatory assurance of eternal life. Further, when a believer slips into sin, that in no way negates the ministry of the Holy Spirit in that person’s life.
However, if someone is looking at a changed life for confirmatory assurance of eternal life, I believe he is looking in the wrong place, and will likely end up with diminished assurance.
Please consider this discussion closed.
John. You are only making an assumption in saying that. I look to Christ alone for my salvation. He paid for it all as God’s word clearly teaches hundreds of times. We all sin. None of us are perfect. If I backslide into sinful living are you saying I will suddenly start ignoring the evidence I have experienced already of the Holy Spirit and the new nature post-salvation? Because I wouldn’t and I couldn’t. Those experiences have already occurred.
Regarding the quote from Ironside you mentioned. For a believer who has made the personal decision to live for the Lord and is doing so, perhaps he was referring to a person such as that to use as an example for the agnostic of the saving power of Christ. Without Christ we don’t have the strength/will to properly live for the Lord to begin with. I understand people can fake such a strength/will – this is why I emphasize not fruit inspecting others on this topic (or at all) but only looking inwardly and on a personal level for evidences of the Holy Spirit dwelling within you. Keep it personal.
To invoke something Dennis Rokser in his book “Shall Never Perish Forever” taught and I am paraphrasing: “If a person is trusting in their works to be saved, a love for God and His will is no longer their motivation for living the Christian life, but a fear of going to hell”.
To quote an interesting point Hank Lindstrom made and I am paraphrasing again: “God’s Word said that ‘All that the Father bringeth me I shall lose none” so no one can lose their salvation once they have received it. But if the verse said ‘All that the Father bringeth me I shall lose one’ then I would have to spend my whole life wondering if I was that one that he would lose.” God’s will is that each one of His children has full assurance that they are saved and going to heaven when they physically die. On a logical level it makes perfect sense. Anything less than FULL assurance gives Satan an opening to flood doubt into a believers mind/life.
Full Assurance of salvation is necessary for properly living the Christian life that God has ordained for those who are saved that they should live it. Without full assurance a fear of going to hell becomes a person’s motivation, which is a motivation that would fluctuate greatly as it is not a solid foundation. That could explain why there is so much tension surrounding subjects such as salvation and the works versus faith alone beliefs. People are afraid, afraid specifically of hell or getting the Biblical doctrine of salvation wrong, especially those who are believing in these UN-Biblical doctrines of works for salvation or fruit inspecting . Their false doctrine puts them to an extent into a state of fear and therefore detracts away from their inborn capacity to live their lives according to God’s will purely out love for it.
To quote Thomas Cucuzza in his book “Secure Forever”:
“It should be emphasized at this point that when we trust Christ, we DO receive a new nature, and with that the power to overcome sin and live victoriously for the Lord, as we certainly should do. Ephesians 2:10 is crystal clear on this.”
From this quote, Cucuzza is clearly implying that without a new nature (that only believers have) they do not have the power to “overcome sin and live victoriously for the Lord”. This power is of course left entirely in the hands of the believer as to whether or not they will use it, but now it is there, when before their salvation it wasn’t. I recommend reading Ephesians 2:10 for proper context on this from God’s word.
From what I have read of Ironside’s writings he understood the Gospel just as well as someone like Hank Lindstrom or Ralph Arnold did/do. I believe this because of the writings I have read of Ironside’s.
If you believe I am wrong about any of this, please correct me.
Brad, I am glad you have overcome certain sinful acts in your life.
However, if you were to slip back into those sins, then that corroborative assurance would be gone.
Personally, I experienced exactly what Ironside was talking about in the section from his book I quoted. A new inborn love for the will of God and a newfound strength to overcome sinful acts in my life such as alcohol abuse. Strengths I did not have before I believed.
I understand fully that speaking about these experiences to someone not aware and privy to the lordship salvation issue can easily begin to look at themselves and therefore take their eyes off Christ with thoughts such as “oh, did I have the same experiences?” or “I’m still struggling with sin, I must not have the strength, I must not be saved”. So I would never speak of these things in my first paragraph to someone prone to looking at themselves.
But from my first hand experience. There is tangible proof a singular individual can look at in order to see evidence of the Holy Spirit dwelling within them and the new nature they now possess, having been saved. Depending on the circumstances in your life at the moment of the salvation, this could be more visible for some than others.
I don’t want you to misinterpret my words as if I am drifting into looking for evidence in other people for proof of their salvation. I am talking about an individual looking inwardly at them self and personally seeing a change.
I don’t believe it is accurate to say that receiving and possessing the Holy Spirit is a reality that goes completely unnoticed. It’s God’s spirit. It’s a big deal.
I pray you understand what I am trying to convey in this post. I don’t want to debate about it so this will be my last post on this particular topic as you have already made clear your belief that there are zero tangible evidences of the Holy Spirit that a person can, on a private personal level, look at in their own lives.
Brad, I think you might be interested in this old comment:
Regarding Ironside, he seemed clear on the gospel at times, but also famously drifted into life change as evidence of eternal life. That is the reason that I don’t quote Ironside as a source.
Following is a an Ironside quote from a purported response to an agnostic:
Now, if you will promise to bring these two people with you as examples of what agnosticism can do, I will promise to meet you at the Academy of Science Hall at four o’clock next Sunday, and I will bring with me at the very least one hundred men and women who for years lives in just such sinful degradation as I have tried to depict, but who have been gloriously saved through believing the gospel which you ridicule. I will have these men and women with me on the platform as witnesses to the miraculous saving power of Jesus Christ as present-day proof of the truth of the Bible.
My comment: Ironside was challenging an agnostic to provide proof of the life changing power of agnosticism and Ironside would provide proof of the life-changing power of Christ.
The punchline was that the agnostic demurred, while Ironside said he could provide at least one hundred people whose lives had been cleaned up by faith in Christ.
All that this incident accomplished is to promote the false doctrine of life change as evidence or proof of eternal life.
No.
Do you believe there is any tangible evidence for a believer to personally experience that the Holy Spirit dwells within them?
Brad, I don’t think there is a such thing as “corroborative proofs” for assurance, whether its an inborn love for the word of God, or anything else.
People looking for “corroborative proofs” will be looking to themselves, not Christ. This is not conducive to assurance.
I would like to quote a section from Harry Ironside’s book “Full Assurance” and read your opinions of it.
From Chapter 8 “Assurance of the Heart”:
“While at the beginning I rested everything for eternity upon the naked Word of God, I find as I continue in faith, overwhelming confirmation of the truth of that Word in the manifestations of eternal life actually imparted to me a sinner, through grace.
Let us look carefully at some of these corroborative proofs which assure our hearts before Him.
First the believer becomes conscious of an inborn love for the will of God. ‘Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected; hereby know we that we are in him’ (1 John 2:3-5). It is not natural for the unbeliever to delight in the will of God. The unsaved man loves his own way and resents being asked to yield his will to another.”
I once spoke to a Lordship Salvationist and he said to me: “We are saved by works and we are not saved by works.”
Jason
Falling into error is likely a process. I saw a discussion about Tony Evans, Charles Stanley and John MacArthur. They liked their preaching, they just felt they did some ‘anti-Catholic’ bashing.
I found that kind of sad.
I wish we had like buttons on this site. Old Evans books in my collection were clear on grace, and repentance was never brought up. It is Stanley all over again. Is it a process? I too caught the WOF in his thinking.
All the focuses. Faith becomes true-believism, which is LS. Prayer morphs into mighty prophet mode. The devil focus dovetails into the victim mentality. Kanye has a better handle on it than these imperiused minions of the lordship plantation. Tears.
Holly…
That Evans quote sounds to me like a typical W-of-F approach: Focus on anything but God. Focus on prayer (how “fervent” and “powerful” it is), focus on one’s “faith”, focus on the devil, focus on anything but God and His word.
Chas & John, so true, they are lying about the truth, whether in realization, or in bondage. I wonder, but only the Lord knows.
I remember when I first looked him and his daughter up (Priscilla Shirer) because usually the apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree. I ran across a book, and he was talking about how to deal with Satan and it sounds more like Word of Faith then it does good sound Biblical advice. Where there might have been some truth, he chooses to use his words instead of Gods.
Tony Evan says:
“Satan is allergic to prayer. When the air is filled with prayer and praise, it chokes Satan up and makes it hard for him to function, just like pollen in the air aggravates a physical allergy. Satan can’t hang around because the environment is too uncomfortable for him. Satan can’t handle it when you draw near to God.”
Very interesting, Holly.
So, instead of being content to hide behind the English word “repentance” to support their legalism, the new LS tactic is to poison the well at the source–the Greek language–and add all of their unbiblical requirements to “metanoia” directly. They note correctly that the word means “a change of mind”, but deny that by itself the word means only that. Very slick, and very much like the techniques of the RCC, which isn’t surprising. Those techniques come from the same source: the father of lies.
Holly, yes, he is all over the place. And yes, his associations should be the first clue.
I saved a number of things on Tony Evans, but he like so many professing ‘grace’ teachers tend to hang out with like-minded people so their associations should be the first clue. But here you can see he is all over the place with his many definitions of Repent and he is speaking of the gospel.
You can see like John MacArthur he improperly uses James 4 as some sort of call to the gospel. You can see just like all the other loadshippers he SAYS he believes metanoia means ‘change of mind’ and then goes on to contradict his own words with his all-over-the-place definition.
(I’d like to note also that repentance doesn’t restore harmony unless our change of mind is about who Jesus is and what He has done. HE removes the wall when we believe.)
Repentance is God’s way of restoring harmony and removing the impregnable wall that goes up when we’ve lost our close fellowship with Him. Repentance is the decision to turn from sin >>in order for God to bring an end to the judgment He has wrought on us. Repentance repairs relationships.
The Greek word metanoia means a change of mind. It is often translated as repentance. It involves a change of heart, a new way of looking at life. Only >>>one aspect of metanoia is repentance. It is much more like a rebirth. Metanoia involves a realization or new way of looking at ourselves. Like David (who was righteous already) who said: “I have sinned against the Lord” (2 Samuel 12:13), we need to wake up to the fact that we have sinned against God and God alone. We have offended God.
True repentance involves regret. We should feel sorrow over our sin, not just sorrow over the fact that we got caught. “Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom” (James 4:8-9). We need to be broken-hearted before God about our sins.
Brad – Absolutely great point! If they don’t believe that you can do any sin in the book and still be saved, then they don’t believe Jesus paid for all sins. Because they’re still trying to earn their way to Heaven and pay for their salvation by their works. Of course, they won’t be good enough to enter Heaven, because you have to be perfect to go to Heaven and NO ONE is perfect.
Brad, Tom had a good sermon that touched on this a few years ago. Please see comment with pertinent excerpts, and link to the sermon, below:
The one caveat I would make is that a Lordship “salvationist” could be someone who has trusted in Christ alone, but is now confused. We can’t really know whether or not someone has eternal life.
Here’s a good point to put to a suspected or known Lordship Salvationist who proclaims to believe that Jesus paid for our sins past, present and future and who proclaims to believe that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone:
“If you believe that Jesus paid for all of our sins past, present and future, then a person who has trusted Christ alone as their Savior can continue sinning after being saved because He has paid for all of their future sins already”.
If they try to change the subject, or skirt past that point then they are stuck in a doubleminded state. If they agree with it then you have potentially won a soul to Christ.
Chas, in addition to the things you mentioned, Chuck Swindoll gave a whole-hearted endorsement of Greg Laurie, as did Tony Evans.
Their endorsements (as well as those by the others) have to be based on at least one of the following:
1. They are ignorant of the false gospel that Greg Laurie teaches
2. They are ignorant of the gospel and believe what Greg Laurie teaches
3. They are not discerning enough to tell the difference between the gospel and its counterfeits
4. They know that what Greg Laurie teaches is a false gospel, but growing their own audiences and selling their wares outweighs any concern they might have
Dennis, you are correct that Greg Laurie makes false claims about what the Bible says.
Chuck Swindoll is someone to avoid. If he’s a veiled Calvinist, that’s the least of his problems.
Swindoll wrote a book called So You Want to be Like Christ. Its just another “evangelical” promotion of contemplative “spirituality” which encourages people to engage in the mystical practice of the “silence”. He quotes Henry Nouwen, a Roman Catholic mystic who championed Catholic mysticism and “contemplative prayer”. Swindoll then wrote a subsequent book called The Church Awakening: An Urgent Call for Renewal. Sounds all “spiritual”, doesn’t it? But in that book Swindoll quotes from The Message, a horrible NON-translation of the Bible by Eugene Peterson which doesn’t even deserve to be called a paraphrase. So much for biblical teaching.
The more I find out about him, the more Swindoll seems to be copying the deceptive techniques of Rick Warren. I guess there’s lots of money in that these days.
From the Harvest. org website, an unscriptural definition of repentance:
“Repent of your sin.
The Bible tells us, “Repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away.” The word repent means to change our direction in life. Instead of running from God, we can run toward Him.”
He said “The Bible tells us…,” which of course it does NOT.
Following that is the usual bogus sinner’s prayer (prevalent in most churches today):
“Dear Lord Jesus, I know I am a sinner. I believe You died for my sins. Right now, I turn from my sins and open the door of my heart and life. I confess You as my personal Lord and Savior. Thank You for saving me. Amen.”
To be honest, my knowledge of Swindoll is purely from things I’ve heard second hand. I even had to Google to see what he looks like. From what I’ve heard/read from him(very little) he seems to downplay his Calvinism while JMac puts his front and center. I have heard (from some who know him) that Swindoll affirms the 5 points.
So, I guess that means Swindoll only believes the parts of the Bible that God chose for him to believe (sarcasm intended).
I believe Swindoll’s soteriology is Calvinist (all 5 points). His eschatology and ecclesiology is Dispensational—much like JMac.
Russell, we’ve had several people comment on Chuck Swindoll over the years, particularly his association with Calvinists/Lordship “salvationists.”
Sample comments are linked below:
We have not had a lot of comments on Tony Evans, but here is what he has to say in his endorsement of Greg Laurie:
God has mightily used Greg on so many different ways and at many different venues. Because of him, many people are in the kingdom through the Harvest Crusades, Harvest America, a dynamic church, a great testimony, a great man. I pray that you will join me and partner in this year’s outreach.
Here is what Chuck Swindoll has to say about Laurie:
The gathering of thousands of people for the single purpose of focusing their praise and worship on Christ alone is more than inspiring – it is life-changing. Those who attend, longing to fill the empty holes in their hearts with reliable truth, never leave disappointed. Here’s why: God has raised up and speaks through Greg Laurie. This gifted servant consistently prepares and delivers fresh food for the hungry soul.
My comment: both Evans and Swindoll praise the dissemination of Laurie’s false gospel, which the Bible calls accursed.
Brad, agree that works are never the basis for determining whether or not one has eternal life, and with the separate judgements.
Titus 3:8: This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
John, this verse is pregnant with refutation of Lordship Salvation. Step 1: Believe (be saved). Step 2: Do good works (live the Christian life).
To say “these things (good works) are good and profitable unto men” demonstrates clearly salvation is by faith alone barr any works and that for the child of God, doing good works are simply profitable in the sense of being good for us both here on earth and into eternity. In my struggles with sin since being saved I have experienced this concept first hand. God blesses the lives of His obedient children and curses the lives of His disobedient ones.
I tried to mention the 2 seperate judgement seats (one for unbelievers and one for believers), but his almost obsessive intention to keep going off on tangents from what ever were discussing made it hard for me get that point accross fully to him.
If one judgement seat is for the unsaved while the other is for the saved, does that not prove the clear separation from faith and works? Works willl be judged at both seats, but the final destinations are different after that judement is made.
I did teach him that halos are derived from Pagan sun worship. He said he was astonished by this fact. I used examples such as the Roman Catholic art work depicting Biblical figures with yellow circles around their heads. This is Paganism even according to a simple google search. Catholicism is nothing but Paganism pretending to be Christian.
I am finished with tip toeing around the issue of Lordship salvation with people both face to face and over the phone/text messages. If they are going to be offended by the truth then let them be offended.
I am surprised by Tony Evans and Chuck Swindoll being involved as I would consider them as free grace teachers. I have heard both of them present the gospel as by faith alone with no added works to either earn or prove salvation. Tony Evans has been especially clear at the times I’ve heard him and so has Chuck. Sometimes I think that when pastors become celebrities they afraid to offend let they lose that title. Any thoughts?
Brad, it was good that you patiently explained these things to the pastor.
As you pointed out to him, if good works will be there, then good works must be there.
One verse that helps explain the non-compulsory nature of works for a Christian is Titus 3:8: This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
The problem is that most of the people who espouse the doublespeak of “it’s not faith plus works, it’s faith that works” and so on, must be looking to their works, at least in part, for assurance. Otherwise, I don’t know why they would be so insistent to defend their point.
Alice I recently spoke to the pastor of that church I was talking to you about and he certainly is Lordship Salvation in a very subtle way. We got into a discussion about what the word “should” means in Ephesians 2:10. I said the word should presents us with an option to either do or don’t do something. He said he believed the word means, quoting him; “compulsory” and “necessary”. He looked up the definition of the word should and amongst the many definitions and sentence examples showing that it clearly means what we all know it means, he selectively kept zeroing in on the one definition that came up saying it means something compulsory. If it means that (which it doesn’t) then he is saying that the works God has ordained for believers to do are compulsory. I asked him; compulsory for what? He kept skirting that question and implying/directly saying that he doesn’t believe the word presents us with an option, but rather a compulsory obligation.
At the same time, he agreed the words “must” and “will” mean compulsory. I showed him the many verses showing it is clearly by faith alone in Christ alone and he agreed with the correct interpretation of all of them. Yet the word “should” in his mind means “must” and “will”. I told him that he is believing that works are necessary to prove a person is saved or to maintain salvation. He said he was offended by me tellling him he is being hypocritical, which I didn’t say directly to him, so on a level he picked up on his own hypocrisy and doublethink regarding salvation – yet, even noticing it, he still decided to look the other way.
Simply another case of doublethink. The MacArthur mindset. He believes it is by faith alone and also believes it is by works, simultaneously. His doctrine was clearly in favor of the false doctrine of perseverence of the saints from Calvinism, yet has told me in the past he disagrees with Calvinism. I said to him that I believe if a person is truly saved that they can live however they want and will still go to heaven, he replied to me that that view was quite ambitious and that I had a lot of confidence to go that far, implying of course that he does not have that same confidence to be biblically accurate about the doctrine of salvation.
As I am sure you all see throughout false Christianity (Lordship Salvation) it is all based upon the foundation of doublethink. He espouses both the faith alone belief and the works for salvation belief. I saw it clearly, he was completely blind to his own hypocrisy. It was astonishing to watch for the 3 hours I conversed with him.
I asked him at the end of our discussion whether he had ever heard of Lordship Salvation and he said no.
He said it was good that we have disagreements (it wasn’t a bitter conversation), although it is vitally important we get this specific doctrine 100% correct. He said I have my opinion and he has his (which is a classic cop-out response). It reminds me of when those who don’t believe in God say that the burden of proof is on the one claiming He exists, not the ones claiming He doesn’t exist, but in reality the burden of proof is equally upon both sides, because both sides are making a claim, therefore both sides are placing a burden of proof upon themselves.
To demonstrate how blind he is to his own doublemindedness, last year I lent him my copy of Secure Forever and he said it was a good read and appeared to agree with it. I’m not sure how much of it he actually read given his complete blindness to his own doctrinal error that is clearly laid out and comprehensively articulated in that book.
I gave him the link to this website and I pray that he reads the posts here with an open mind, including this comment. I could sense he was getting agitated by my challenges on his contradictive statements and doctrine. My intentions is never to agitate or upset, but especially in this day and age, the truth hurts and upsets people. Take political correctness and “safe spaces” for example on college campuses. They are literally afraid of dissenting or opposing viewpoints to their own. Their minds are closed and their arrogance guides them.
Thank God for this ministry and thank God for his FREE gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
Yep, ecumenical, lordship (no) salvation Greg Laurie. He’s been a false teacher the whole time. Never once have I ever heard him preach the true Gospel
Note that the pastors who have signed onto Laurie’s false gospel include a “who’s who” of SBC (Salvation By Contract) dignitaries.
For related articles on the SBC, please see below:
Alice, thanks for the warning.
This guy is preaching a false gospel. He is encouraging people to reject Christ.
Just a warning here concerning David Pawson from UK:
In a youtube video titled: ‘Believers in Hell’ around 21 minute mark, David Pawson says:
‘Those who say, ‘now that you have accepted Christ, you’ve done everything you need to do, He’s has done everything for you and that’s all’ then what happens to the 1100 Do’s and Don’ts in the N.T, well, you just happily ignore them?’ I have written a book: Once saved, Always Saved?’ I’ve got a big question mark at the end of that because I don’t believe it, that phrase which is not in the Bible, has done more damage to Christians by leading them to a complacent safety: ‘I’m saved, I’m OK, I’m heading to heaven!’. That is a dangerous assumption.’
David Pawson believes that believers will go to hell if they don’t end their Christian lives well! He has got 4 Do’s for people to make sure they make it to heaven: Repent of sins, Believe, get baptised and receive the Holy Spirit.
This is clearly adding ‘works’ to Grace and fails to distinguish Justification from Sanctification.
chas, this is a critical issue – these guys seem willing to coalesce with one another, no matter what their differences, as long as there is a “catch” (works) required either to attain eternal life, keep eternal life, or show evidence that one has received eternal life.
So Greg Laurie and a few of the usual suspects–including Rick Warren–are doing his annual works-fest for 2018, complete with all the “repent-of-sins” virtue-signalling. No surprises there. I suspect it’s all to bolster the validity of GL’s own salvation in his own mind, ultimately.
I recall early in my CCCM days (mid-’70s) being exposed to GL’s “teachings” which were essentially no different then than they are today; gotta manifest that “fruit”. It was so depressing, though at the time I couldn’t put my finger on why. After a while, I would just avoid him out of self-defense. I count GL as one of the major causes of my confusion during that time. It’s no wonder he’s so chummy with the RCC.
It is astounding how these people will quote John 3:16 and then void it in the same breath. And they seem to be doubling down on their heresy. I’ve been praying that the LS vs. Biblical Salvation issue would become front-and-center in the Church’s attention these days, since the issue is at the very center of the Gospel. That seems to be happening, but it’s disturbing how so many “discernment” ministries–even some who have Greg Laurie and his cohorts pegged–are on the wrong side. The lines are being drawn.
Correction: after reading Greg Laurie’s Harvest church site, he appears to be Calvinist and LS and not Pentecostal or charismatic. I may have him confused with someone else.
Holly always enjoy and learn from your posts, keep on talking. I especially appreciate you all pointing out false teaching and revealing why its incorrect.
A some people, like G. Laurie, seem to get mentioned a lot on TBN are of the same ilk as Paul and Jan Crouch, TBN founders were, Pentecostal, Charismatic…. who have a good works/behavior contingency view of salvation. Others who are Calvinists are not so promoted, but receive air time.
PhilR, yes I believe he was on either TBN or CBN (or maybe both). They do not see a problem with it as they need numbers.
Greg Laurie consistently brags of his numbers while the Calvinists judge the ‘fruits’ and see ‘no fruit of conversion’ in the audience, and they both miss the truth.
What’s interesting (but typical) of these types, they will have some reformed promoting them and then they have other Calvinists with ‘discernment ministries’ outing them. One is a well known site which speaks of all Laurie’s associations but I don’t see them outing their Calvinist cohorts. They bring up Ann Graham Lotz, and the Benham brothers, James Robison, Priscilla Shirer, Kay Arthur, Steven Furtick etc.
These ‘evangelists’ explain it away by saying they are there to ‘preach the gospel’ and they’ll go anywhere to do it.
As we know, their gospel is another.
Sometimes they will get you saved, and then tell you there is more.
I believe Greg Laurie was on TBN.
Holly says some truths that we should hang on to: that we cannot stop sinning, That’s why we need Christ as our Savior to take away our sins, and raise us unto eternal life. He did what we cannot do ourselves: He defeated sin for us.
Stay with us Skyrapture, we are a grace believing family at this Oasis of Grace.
Holly, I don’t mind.
Fryingpan, Sam, Jason – I always want to say something to you all, but don’t want to dominate the conversation 🙂 I thank God for expreacherman too and pray for this Oasis daily 🙂
I was once recovering from Armstrongism. I was getting clear on the gospel and grasping at its simplicity, when I heard on the radio that I could kiss the gospel goodbye. That caused me no end of confusion.
Johninnc, your son is right, they will use John 3:16 then say, “this is what YOU need to do. They twist Scripture to their own destruction.
Skyrapture, so sorry to hear of all you have gone through, but I have come to realize too that it is the religious Pharisees that are shutting up the Kingdom of Heaven against not only others, but also themselves.
Jesus made a way for us, knowing we could not stop sinning, and that was the purpose of the law, to make us aware of sin and point us to our need for Christ.
Jesus in great love gave Himself for us on the Cross. He is God, come in the flesh as His name says. Only God is Savior, so when we believe Him, we are given everlasting life. The Word is where we begin to be set free when we continue in it. Learning what context was, and asking questions like ‘what kind of a salvation is being discussed’ was helpful along with gathering other similar Scriptures to witness with the other ones. Preparing in the gospel every day was a big part of my armor that I had neglected. And proving all things by His Word, being a Berean has helped me immensely.
Stick with us here. Ask questions, you’ve found a good place to fellowship.
In Christ, Holly
Holly, the false gospels being taught by these people are terribly sad, both for those teaching them and those listening to them.
My son told me last night that LSers basically blow off John 3:16. That’s why I started the article with that verse – to show the simplicity of the truth contrasted with the convoluted error of Greg Laurie.
Johninnc
Bitter Harvest is a very appropriate term for Greg Laurie’s Harvest event.
I found it interesting this quote: More than simply being sorry, it is a word of action. Many people feel remorse for their sin but never truly repent. Remorse is being sorry, repentance is being sorry enough to stop.
I’m wondering always if they’ve stopped their sins. If not, by their definition, they have not repented. Not surprised at all by his list of supporters.
What’s terribly sad is all those who will go seeking to find the truth and instead will be fed a false gospel.
Good article…
Sam, there is a group-think mentality that none of these guys seems to challenge. Like you, I don’t buy Laurie’s claims of having stopped sinning.
Jason, yes. Shame on anyone throwing in with these false gospel purveyors.
Your absolutely correct they will start with something true then wipe it out with a lie contadicting themselves.Its amazing how these guys all follow along together as they have to know these statements make no sense.I like the statement repentence means sorry enough to stop sinning,I wish one of them would pacifically explain to me how he did that.Yes they will point to the Christ going to the cross but it is never quite enough if we don’t get our sin management under control, lower it and keep on improving day by day or else your faith isn’t geniune.Hopefully people seek and search for the clear truth of the Gospel (good news) as they won’t hear it at those conferences.I know most of the readers here all started out with confusing teachers but by the grace of God led us to the simplicity of Gods Grace and Love .Thanks Johninnc
Greg Laurie used to come on after Hanegraaff on my local station in Philadelphia, from which I live south of the border. His program was called, A New Beginning, and it made me feel good on the few occasions that I listened. It is sorrowful to learn, one by one, that my brethren are false. Evans is clear on the gospel. Shame on him for endorsing this mush.
Skyrapture, I enjoyed your post. All movements have had things that make me go hmmm. It feels like the only thing I can be sure of is salvation by grace. I think you might enjoy my youtube channel, which is mostly playlists.
Skyrapture, we are glad you enjoyed the article.
God transcends politics, so we generally avoid political discussions as distracting to our mission of advancing and defending the gospel.
We agree that adding one work to the gospel makes it a false gospel. And, while we can’t know whether individual people who have embraced false gospels are eternally secure Christians who became confused, or if they have never believed in Jesus as Savior, such people need our prayers and they need to hear the gospel presented faithfully.
To Whom It May Concern:
First, I hope this will be read. I hope this does not go in one ear and out the other. First, let me say you are right about what I choose to call control and domination which is a much harsher term for me to use than lordship salvation. This lordship salvation is man’s way of determining whether one of his fellow human creatures is saved. There are so many false preachers on the radio today that I do not listen to Christian radio any more. Throughout the forty five years of my life I have prayed prayers numerous times, walked aisles, I can’t tell you how many times I have been baptized in water. You get my drift. If. I told you my whole story I’d ask those of you with sleep apnea to get on your machines because there’s no doubt you’d fall asleep. By the way I am totally blind and use an iPhone with voice over and I am also writing this post as I head home from work so I apologize in advance for mistakes. I have had several control freeks in my life. I won’t mention their names. I forgive them for what happened and that’s that. However, the lessons they taught me can’t be undone. When around these people I never felt like I measured up to their expectations of me, and thus I never felt like I was saved. I have heard so many Baptist preachers especially say turn from your sins. By the way if you really want a great example of lordship salvation or what I call control and domination salvation listen to the drama Affabel by John Bevere and read his book Driven By Eternity. I wish people who believe in the real gospel would expose him for the false teacher he is. Listen to the dramatic performance of Affavbel. You’ll agree with me after you listen to it. After hearing that I left the church that was going goo goo ga ga over John Bevere. It took a few weeks, but I eventually left that church. Whenever I’ve heard that drama I thought there’s no way I could be saved. I did not measure up to people’s expectations of me as a child and as an adult, and I certainly never felt I could measure up to God’s expectations. I have been dealing with a sexual addiction (I won’t say what it is out of respect for the readers of this post) for years. This according to control and domination salvationists is an automatic trip to hell do not pass go do not collect two hundred dollars. After spending my adult life in churches where I do not measure up to human expectations let alone the god they teach about’s expectations I left and have gone to Unity. I am loved there. I am accepted there regardless of the fact I have a disability. I feel sure I am saved because I have come to believe in the true and living God. This isn’t the god who can’t wait to kick me out of his club for messing up one time. This is also a place that does not care about the fact I did not vote for Donald Trump who many lordship salvationists believe is Jesus Christ in His second incarnation; (they won’t admit that because lots of people would leave their churches if they did). A friend of mine told me that people can’t be Christians and democrats at the same time. I’ve read the four gospels as well as the rest of the Bible, and this friend fits the very description of the Pharisees. This is what is allowed to be taught in mainstream Christianity today in and out of the four walls and on Christian radio. These people also hate people of different races, gays and lesbians, and even some of them hate persons with disabilities. Many of these people in these churches have an attitude of self righteousness because they’ve overcome this or that sin. This is wrong. Greg Laurie does not believe Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and neither do many of these other people who believe in this control and domination salvation. Anybody who believes that you have to do one thing to obtain salvation can’t be saved; one work you have to do and you thus negate Jesus being the way, the truth, and the life. If you have to accept Jesus plus vote Republican then that’s not salvation. Unity does not teach this. By the way thank you for clarifying James 2:19. Any thinking person who believes in the passion of Jesus would know if they would just think logically that Jesus did not die for the demons who are already damned. Thank you, thank you for clarifying this truth to me in your post. My question is where are the good Christian radio stations that will teach the real truth, and that will help people know that they know that they know that they know that they know they are saved? WHERE ARE THEY? Well, I feel I am now in the place where God wants me. I have found a spiritual home. Thank you for reading this post and keep spreading the real gospel. God bless you. Bobby
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 7, 2018, at 11:48 AM, Notes From A Retired Preacher wrote: > > >
Fryingpan, it’s great to hear from you.
As sad as Laurie’s false gospel is, all of the “preacherticians” glomming onto it makes it all the worse.
Thank you for this post, johninnc.
I (pretty consistently at least) spend some time every morning writing down the things for which I’m grateful. You and this blog are among them.
I once was told by a Greg Laurie apologist that there’s more to “believing” and that we must “believe ON” the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved, meaning that “believe on” implies action, commitment, and the usual lies from hell.
Makes me so irritated sometimes.