By johninnc
2 Corinthians 4:3-4: But of our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
In reading countless comments from Lordship “salvationists” who condemn adherents of other false religions, as well as godless atheists, it has dawned on me that Lordship “salvationists” are actually MEtheists. That is, their god is not the God of the Bible. Rather it is a false god that they have constructed that is a hybrid of the true God and themselves.
For a background definition of Lordship “salvation,” please see link below:
While Lordship “salvationists” may give lip service to acknowledging that the Bible is God’s word, they imagine all sorts of contradictions, paradoxes, and “tensions” lie therein.
As Ron Shea notes:
Rather than coming to scripture to learn the mind of God, some unregenerate men approach scripture to justify the views they already hold…
Not surprisingly therefore, those who think that they, rather than Jesus Christ, are the Savior of their own souls have, for centuries, sought from scripture proof texts to justify this conclusion.
Like other religions, Lordship “salvation” is man’s attempt to establish his own righteousness.
Romans 10:2-3: For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.
The Lordship “salvationist” seems indignant that other people do not follow God’s laws – laws that he also does not follow.
Often, he constructs his own moral “code of conduct” that, in his mind, replaces God’s perfect law. If he is successful in following this code, or is at least trying, he thinks this helps justify him to God.
But, this is pure foolishness. Anyone who tries to keep the law to be justified must keep it all to be justified.
Galatians 3:10: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them.
And, if he thinks that others have no code, or a more relaxed code, that might indicate that they don’t have eternal life.
Romans 2:1: Therefore, thou art inexcusable O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Lordship “salvation” is highly focused on “life change,” or comparative conduct, for evidence of eternal life in others, or assurance of eternal life in oneself.
But, the Bible says that we are justified by faith, without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
For anyone “on the fence,” who thinks that good works are an essential evidence of eternal life, the Bible says otherwise:
John 5:24: Verily, verily I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth in him that sent me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.
Please note in the above verse that there is absolutely no reference to life change, sinning less, or comparing oneself to others – or even comparing oneself to oneself before becoming a believer.
If, while reading this article, you have realized that you might be trusting in your own works for eternal life – either in whole are in part – and are tired of being on that treadmill, please consider the following invitation:
Matthew 11:28: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
If you have believed in the false gospel of MEtheism, and would like to know the truth, please click here:
Notes From A Retired Preacher 
Holly, agree.
You know John, I was thinking about what Ron said, and we know besides the reprobate, that just untaught or unstable people who are believers can twist His Word to their destruction 2 Pet 3 (in their walk). I think also of James 4, and those believers were doubleminded and were behaving so badly. When we do not remember to continue looking in that perfect law of liberty, how fast we can fall into destruction in our lives, forgetting who we are in Christ. (Not trying to change what the Word says in any manner, just thinking out loud regarding a few Scriptures).
Alice, A few rules of context and comparison helped me greatly. Asking who the passage was written to and regarding what was huge for me (along with the other ‘w’s and the ‘how’). Contrasting or comparing other Scripture which would contradict what those passages said helped me ask myself, ‘what they did they mean?’
If He sanctifies us once (positionally) and perfects us forever, then why do we continue to be sanctified (Jn 17:17) once we are believers (helped me understand the different types of sanctification).
Knowing His Word (Heb 5:12-14) keeps us from being misled, and being Bereans and students is a big one too (Acts 17:11; 2 Tim 2:15) with always the right person’s approval in mind — His.
When being challenged on eternal life years and years ago, so many Scriptures came into play. Several places say we are perfected forever, passed from death unto life, in receipt of eternal life, already seated in heavenly places, citizenship in heaven, etc., with a new creation that does not sin, then the ‘saved’ in enduring to the end cannot speak to being saved from hell, but being saved from death. Those Jews who endure unto the end (along with any Gentile believers) will live to populate the Millennial Kingdom.
If one passage says we confess and another passage shows believers not confessing Him publicly (Jn 12), then I see that the end result isn’t a loss of eternal life but has to speak to our walk with Him which can affect us in this lifetime and cause a loss of rewards that we could have had for Him. Since none of us are perfect except in the new man, all of us will suffer loss and see things burnt up behind us. Many things I suspect we thought were good but were more good deeds rather than deeds done in Christ.
But I think the common sense of someone saying we should always ask ‘saved from what’ was one that was super helpful to me. We learned so much traditional language that was supposed to always mean one thing, and we had to unlearn that stinkin’ thinkin’ (as me and some of my friends have become accustomed to labeling it as).
I even had to unlearn the translation explanations, where people insisted ‘continue to believe’ shouldn’t be there, and was a translation issue. But I wanted to learn what was really being said and not fall into pat answers from one crowd. And I looked and I would see a continuing action spoken of as I checked into the parsing, and I would pray and study ad ask Him what was being imparted there. I truly believe He will teach any of us who want to apply our hearts to His wisdom and knowledge (Pr 22:17-21).
We have a one time faith which nets us the free gift of eternal life. We can stop believing because of various things. We can continue to believe when we learn to walk in the Spirit and remind ourselves that we are His eternally because we believed (past tense) the testimony that God gave of His Son, and these things are written that we might keep believing or be strong in the faith (to those who were already believers who were being unsettled by the gnostics). Romans 15:4 tells believers, For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. (I like Jack’s article here on Hope).
We know that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word, does that always just speak to eternal life? I don’t think so — we need to abide in His Word and then we will be His disciples (Jn 8:31-32)
While doing a search on Google on one of the greats, one of the hits is a pdf file, with this sample of words posted below the link:
“…mine, his guilt as mine, to be sure that I am not a little bit better than he. That is what Christ did when He took our guilt upon Himself. To take upon yourself the sins of others is essential. Jesus says to His adversaries, …”
If that isn’t MEtheism, I don’t know what is. I know only of Jesus the Savior and nothing of Him making me a co-savior. There is no need to bother to open that link. It is not possible for me to take on myself the sins of others. Jesus is sufficient.
Alice, we can use the word of God, and pray for understanding, but we can’t make people believe, and God doesn’t either. If neither Matthew 10:33, nor Matthew 6:15 were in the Bible, those who are bent on LS would find countless other passages on which to base their corruption of the gospel.
And, if they were to run out of verses on which to base their corruption of the gospel, they would simply make stuff up
From Ron Shea:
Rather than coming to scripture to learn the mind of God, some unregenerate men approach scripture determined to justify the beliefs they already hold…
Not surprisingly therefore, those who believe that they, rather than Jesus Christ, are the Savior of their own souls, have, for centuries, sought from Scripture proof-texts to justify this conclusion.
The Bible is clear that:
1. We receive eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
2. We are eternally secure in Christ.
3. We can have assurance of eternal life, based on God’s promises alone, without having to wait to “see how we do.”
If any interpretation of scripture violates any of these clear tenets, it simply cannot be true.
Thanks Johninnc and Holly for your responses which are always helpful.
A superficial reading of Matt 10:33: ‘But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven’ would sound like if a believer denies Christ (under torture or persecution or hardships) then that believer will go to hell being denied entry into heaven.
And Matt 6: 15
‘ But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses’ sounds like unless we forgive other people their sins, neither will our Father forgive us our sins. Once again these types of verses are often quoted by ignorant, unlearned people as conditions for salvation and that our entry into heaven depends upon our ability to stay faithful/not deny Christ under any circumstances and our ability to forgive others who sin against us, otherwise we won’t make it into heaven. So trusting in Christ alone is not enough, but also our ability to endure till the end is necessary for Salvation.
Would it have been helpful if those verses specifically stated that these verses are not about ‘Salvation’ but about ‘service/discipleship/growth/maturity’? Who is to say that I am right and they are wrong? How can we explain to people in Bible studies/Churches who are in LS that Salvation is a Free Gift of Grace, not a merit-based contract, who believe that faith in Christ is not enough?
Jason, so thankful for His mercy and His Word and the faithful ministries of others. Been continuing to pray for those who work hard and are flesh and blood like us. That they are strengthened and also protected. So thankful He watched over us and helped us when our feet were slipping.
17 Unless the Lord had been my help,
my soul had almost dwelt in silence.
18 When I said, My foot slippeth;
thy mercy, O Lord, held me up.
19 In the multitude of my thoughts within me
thy comforts delight my soul.
Psalm 94:17-19
Holly, so much in those books was about me: me being savior and me being god. Pantheism and theosis pervaded them. So did denial of God’s promises and denial of reality. The existence of me was denied and at the same time, the deity of me was dogmatically affirmed. So much mysticism and garbage. Catherine of Sienna and Teresa of Avila were quoted ad nauseam. My mind can’t take it. In “Victorious Faith”, he literally adds himself to the Bible. And his testimony is being used to manipulate emotions and accuse.
Alice – btw, hope you are ‘outta there’ 🙂
John – knowing the character of God and the obnoxious way that some of the Calvinists behave, one was so reprehensible I just got tears at the way he spoke of his upcoming grandchild, possibly reprobate, he didn’t know. Some are downright wicked, Paul Washer speaking of how he’s going to applaud when the nonbelievers are sent to hell. What if he’s not ‘really’ one of the chosen? Will he still be applauding?
Fryingpan – seriously appreciate the prayer. We are weary.
Jason – I loved all those books, and it was funny, I never saw them the same, because maybe I read them more like fiction or a possibility or never caught the nuances of people will be faithful. I had someone email me the other day, He said that the Lord is faithful to those who trust in Him. I told him true, but that the Lord was also faithful when we are not.
This article on ME theism is very appropriate to how loadshippers ‘prove’ that they are saved, it’s all about ME and they don’t see it. It’s a word you all see me use often, but it’s tragic. They think they are humble, but so many are those white washed tombs.
Alice, it;s interesting you recently had a similar ‘teaching’ that my daughter did at her church. She didn’t realize they were leaning that way. Her pastor said he ‘used to believe’ that your salvation was secure, but then he came to the conclusion in certain circumstances you could lose it. After a couple of conversations they left that church.
Also, when I was still a child, that I could deny my salvation away was probably the first deception in my church that I had encountered. If not, it was the moment when a Sunday school or VBS teacher mishandled the Rich Young Ruler and the pastor divided it rightly the next sermon.
Jason, anything that ladens the sheep with guilt and guile is not of God.
Sounds like bad news.
The possibility of denying Christ under torture scared me. I have mentioned the horrible influence of Wurmbrand on my thought life. He may have been exaggerating (he used the word “unspeakable” and spoke of it anyway, in excruciating detail), but even if his accounts of intense torture were the whole truth, to endure that is surely a work. Even to submit to a painless lethal injection is a work. And to add any work to the gospel is to pervert it. I was deluded in thinking I was blessed by reading “Tortured for Christ”, and when I read his other books, I knew I had been deceived, but the guilt was horrible. Loadship loves to use both Wurmbrand and Bonhoeffer as great men to laden the sheep with guilt and guile.
johnininc,
Thank you. I agree. I’m very grateful God put it on my heart to use it that day.
Fryingpan, it is a really good question to ask. It can cut right to the heart of someone’s beliefs.
Thank you for that, Holly. I have prayed for that.
johnininc, the example you mentioned about Peter was pertinent to a conversation I had with a very heavy LS individual about 3 months before I discovered this blog pretty much exactly 5 years ago.
I was working a temp job and there was some serious slow time and the conversation with one co-worker drifted to me describing a falling out I’d had with an old friend who over the years (after moving away) devolved into a raging alcoholic. “Oh, well he’s not saved” she told me about my estranged friend. The conversation didn’t last long and for those who don’t know or don’t remember, I didn’t even know what Lordship Salvation WAS at this point. But I had enough of a grasp on the gospel to ask this woman, “Okay, so, if Peter had been struck by lightning and killed right after he denied Jesus 3 times, and before he could be restored, would he have gone to hell?”
“Oh ABSOLUTELY! You can’t DENY GOD!”
“Okay,” I said. I knew that to continue the conversation at that point was a waste of time. (Not to mention the fact that we were disturbing our co-workers at that point.)
Alice, had Peter died just after denying Christ, would he have gone to heaven?
The answer is obviously yes.
I attended a Bible study at my old church a couple of days ago and they were discussing the subject of Faith. The pastor went to all the places in the NT regarding: No faith, little faith, wavering faith, great faith, mustard size faith and so on. I tried to concentrate on the Object of faith, the Lord Jesus Christ, not the amount or size of faith.
I asked the pastor if a believer of many years will still go to heaven if she/he renounced faith in Christ and caved in under persecution and the pastor replied, no, she/he will go to hell for not being ‘faithful’ and endure to the end. I asked him if that would not be adding ‘works’ to simple faith in Christ and His finished work alone for salvation, but he disagreed. The others were horrified in the group that I would dare to suggest that a believer could ‘cave in’ to pressure under intense persecution and still be allowed into heaven!
Holly, I have prayed that God would continue to use those booklets to reach people in that Bible study and elsewhere with His word.
Fryingpan – we went to a Bible study at the acute rehab my husband is at (until Friday – yay!) and we had no idea what it might be, mostly Scripture reading as it turned out. But there were believers there, and I got to pass out Tom Cucuzza’s gospel booklet which most received gratefully. There was a time for prayer requests and then you could volunteer to pray for one. There was a women who asked for prayer for the numbness in her legs then talked about how many surgeries she had, but would talk to the people about whether they were believers or not. And one woman in a wheelchair across the room told her she needed to ‘pay attention’ because obviously God was trying to ‘get her attention’ about something. It was meant in a way that this woman was suggesting the other woman deserved all the surgeries. Granted certainly God can get our attention in many ways, but I found it so hugely ironic, the one finger pointer in the wheelchair suggesting the other one in the wheelchair was the sinner. (Not in such drastic terms). I just thought of the Pharisees and the sinners Jesus went to. I thought about how people sometimes cannot see their own condition, or the forest for the trees. I saw also the look on her husband’s face, he was not happy that someone was suggesting his wife deserved this. I offered to pray for her, and I talked about Peter being taken somewhere he would not want to go, and Paul and I don’t remember honestly who else, but brought up the passage (from Isaiah and Romans) how beautiful are the feet (on the mountains) that bring the gospel of peace, and that if her legs weren’t healed, that she would be able to bring the good news to others.
Later her husband tracked me down, and asked me if I had more booklets. We walked out to my car, and he shared about being so sick of churches that don’t teach about the love of God and don’t have teaching pastors. How they have a pastor now who teaches through the Word and was going through 1 Cor 13 in the last service, and how it’s so good to know of God’s Love. I agree.
It’s the love of Christ that constraineth (or compels) us. Today I delivered more of the gospels to one of the ladies (who works there) who also runs the Bible study. Pray that they might be willing to use that and more if God is willing.
Holly, you mention they boast about their numbers. It reminds me of an experience I had about 4 years ago. A then co-worker recommended his church to me. I went online to scope it out and basically all I remember are two things. Nowhere could I find what they really believed about the plan of salvation (massive red flag of course) but I DID find a lot about how we basically prove we’re walking in God’s plan for out life by how well we’re doing in life. It was a really slick way of basically saying, “We’re prosperity gospel believers, but we’ll insist we really aren’t”.
I like making as good a living as possible as the next guy, believer or otherwise. but this made me want to puke.
“Never mind all that eternal life and being forgiven nonsense. We’re going to look down our nose at you if you’re not killing it in this life.”
Only tangentially related, but I had to get that off my chest. 🙂
Holly, you make a very good point. Why should a Calvinist ever be angry at anyone? I guess they could say that God caused them to be?
It’s funny but we understand that the god of this age has minds blinded.
Calvinists believe the God of the Bible keeps people from believing. They don’t realize their own claim to faith is futile because they don’t know if their god has them fooled. They boast about their many wonderful works, and how they have made Him Lord (Lord, Lord). They boast of their numbers (broad path). They boast of their intellect and their scholars and their prince of preachers (Luke 6:26). Woe to you if you speak ill of THEM, you have touched their anointed and they become furious. I ask them why if their god has ordained for me to do this. Why do they question their god’s marionette strings? It might sound simplistic but I think it’s terribly sad they don’t see themselves in the shoes of those wolves in sheep’s clothing in Matthew 7.
Brad, you are correct that neither religion, nor good works can contribute in any way as to whether or not someone has eternal life.
It has been the case, throughout history, that few would enter the strait gate and the narrow way that leads to eternal life.
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
An interesting parallel with the faith versus works debate is seen here.
God’s word tells us that “many” will pass through the wide broad gate to destruction (hell) and “few” will pass through the strait narrow gate to heaven. If God’s word said it then it is a 100% accurate prophecy (both of then and now).
The contrast of the words “many” and “few” are stark indeed.
Lets look at the world. I believe it is abundantly fair to say that MANY people are trusting their works to get to heaven, a brief list:
– Judaism
– Islam
– Mormonism
– Jehovas Witnesses
– Catholicism
– Lutheranism
– Hinduism
– Buddhism
– Spiritualism
I just mentioned in that list most of world’s population. The MANY. Even outside of religion people generally believe if they are a good person (works) they will go to heaven.
So now only the FEW remain that actually trust Christ alone, wholly apart from works, for their salvation.
IF works for salvation was the correct pathway to heaven, that would mean MANY would pass through the strait narrow gate to heaven and FEW would pass through the wide broad gate to destruction. Which would contradict God’s prophetic word directly.
Anyone who may be reading this who is trusting in their own self-effort in some way to get to heaven, please give some serious prayerful thought to this. Jesus is waiting with open arms to relieve you from the burden of works and the curse of the law:
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Holly, it sounds almost like Cahn teaches British Israelism,
Alice, it’s disappointing when some seemingly sound prophecy teachers hook up with those who are someone we should mark and avoid. Jonathan Cahn is a self-appointed prophet, if you read his own write-up on himself, and makes it out that God made a covenant with the US, much like His covenant with Israel (some say he makes US Israel). He uses mystical writings like the Zohar, he is into Kabbalah, and all sorts of things. He calls himself Rabbi (direct prohibition regarding that in the Scriptures). Hope that helped somewhat 🙂
jason, I’ve listened to quite a few of those sermons, and you are right. He may not have every scintilla of prophecy correct, but he is very clear on the gospel.
Tom Cucuzza has done a sermon series on Revelation. He seems to be a prophecy expert who gets the Gospel right. Ralph Yankee Arnold also has some prophecy sermons.
Alice, Holly has written several negative comments about Jonathon Cahn. Please see links to a couple of them below:
Alice, we are told to mark and avoid teachers who are under God’s curse for preaching false gospels.
In trying to assuage our curiosity for prophecy, we could unwitttingly stumble, or cause others to stumble.
I’m not familiar with all of these guys that you mentioned.
Just wondering if I am being too ‘judgemental’ about the Blessed Hope Prophecy Forum being held this weekend Oct 13-15 in Norman Oklahoma which includes 33 speakers according to their own promotions: Mark Hitchcock, Thomas Ice, Randall Price, Andy Woods, Jonathan Cahn, J D Farag, Terry James, Bill Koenig and many other well-known prophecy scholars and authors/teachers/pastors/ TV evangelists. The subject topics include: The key to God’s plan, Israel, Artificial Intelligence, Jerusalem Temple, One world order, Mystery Babylon and other interesting subjects. But I am wondering if they all agree on the Gospel of Grace of Jesus Christ. I am sure some of them are Arminian and some Calvinist LSers. What would God think about such a ‘Prophecy Conference’ and would He be honoured and glorified OR can He still use it for His purposes, not because of it, but in spite of it?
One thing I like about Australia is that their football leagues (and there are several types) are not to my knowledge disrespecting the flag of their own country. I have said I would rather watch rugby, lol.
This is the same pastor who a week ago gave me some mixed messages regarding how to be saved, such as asking God for forgiveness in a prayer. So there’s some work to do. God already forgave our sins at Calvary so no sense in asking Him to do what he has already done lol.
Brad, I think you did a good thing letting the pastor borrow the book. I pray that the pastor will understand that works are not required to receive eternal life, keep eternal life, or provide evidence that one has received eternal life.
I lent the Secure forever book to a pastor at a local church. He seems like a pretty down to earth fellow so hopefully he understands the issues raised in that book. This particular church is conservative, uses KJV and no contemporary rock music or pretty lights. Very traditional values/setup. He did emphasize salvation as being a “free gift” during his sermon so that was encouraging. Praying that he will see the truth.
lonely in Australia, I live on the Gold Coast (hour south of Bris).
Brad, I live one hour drive west of Brisbane.
Phil, I agree with the warning.
Beware of churches who state they believe in eternal security. It’s often a foregone conclusion and assumed that after a person is saved then changes in the persons behavior will follow. This can be one of the biggest hurdles to deal with even in a church that says they are eternal security and grace alone. That is often NOT what they are. They are actually faith+ works.
I recall recently hearing an otherwise sound preacher saying that nonsense about the mortal body. I can’t remember who.
I stand corrected. Good point john. For those raptured their physical bodies are caught up and changed. Forgot about that!
Brad, I think it is a changed (redeemed) version of our current body, including for those who have already died physically, but have eternal life. At the rapture, believers who are still alive physically will not slough off their existing bodies and leave them behind. If that is the case, then it seems like those physically dead believers’ bodies would also be raised incorruptible.
Jesus’ body is no longer in the tomb, and I don’t think believers bodies’ will be left in the tomb, in the dust, etc.
1 Corinthians 15:50-54:
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
be wary of people or churches who attempt to “win you” to themselves.
before asking you if you know you have eternal life as a free gift?
or just flip it right back on them asking them
How do I know I have the Free Gift of eternal life ?
Our mortal bodies don’t change. They die and return to the dust of the earth. Thus the word “mortal”. We are given entirely new bodies upon glorification.
Right?
Dear Lonely in Australia:
Welcome to our online fellowship here. We understand. Many of us have gone through this same thing for years, and I think it’s part of understanding His sufferings too. Think of the religious who didn’t believe Him. It’s His Word that will judge them in the end.
I would say the person that preached the statement on what separates Biblical Christianity has it completely backwards (unfortunately for him). Sad for you, tragic for him in many ways (as a teacher and as one who may not personally understand the gospel).
Yes, they hate the word eternal security, so I ask them how long is everlasting? How long is forever? How long is eternal? Does God give defective gifts? His gift is ETERNAL life…
Pilgrim’s progress is well loved by Calvinists and loadshippers alike. (not a typo by the way). Before you go to these churches, you might look up their gospel online, but no matter what you do, please have your armor on. Be in prayer and thankfulness for the fact you do understand the gospel, and have been given the free gift. We mourn for them, but we rejoice for His mercy and the grace that brings salvation to all men (who will believe).
In Christ (by the way, I do not know of a grace church with a sound gospel near me either.)
Brad, I would have to agree with John in the quickening referring to our mortal bodies being changed.
If you look at the verse itself, since the verse before contrasts the spirit, then it speaks the physical, Christ being risen from the dead, so shall we be risen physical from the dead. This is ultimate sanctification. I believe it means being brought to life. A quickening of our spirit would be the new creation and it could not speak to our flesh at this time (in my humble opinion).
Wow, it seems that statements of faith mean nothing, these days. They are all being worked over by MacArthurites.
I’m Australian, where do you live?
Lonely in Australia, I have prayed that you would find a church, or just a person or two, with whom you can meet, and that you will not be despondent.
Hi. I’m not sure why I’m writing this other than feeling lonely and not having anyone else to talk to. I still haven’t found a non LS church to attend.
In my quest to find a church which holds to the one true Gospel, I tried visiting a church which claimed to believe in eternal security. The church turned out to be a mixture of Calvinists and even Arminians of all sorts. The sermon which was preached included the following statement (paraphrased from memory): “so many Christians think that what separates Biblical Christianity from all other world religions is that salvation is free and not by works – but this is wrong – what separates Biblical Christianity from all other religions is belief in the Trinity.”
Right after the sermon I headed straight for the door but was stopped by some of the men there who began a conversation with me. I told them I’m not a Calvinist but believe in eternal security. They then began treating me with suspicion as they asked me how I got saved. Long story short, they basically were trying to make me feel like I wasn’t really saved during my teenage years (because I told them I wasn’t always walking very close to God).
A lot of them actually frown upon the term “eternal security.”
Then the following Sunday I visited a different church which claimed to be non Calvinist but believe in Eternal Security. Long story short, for the sermon the pastor mostly read from Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress. The message was all about perseverance and making sure we make it to heaven and not fall of the narrow, difficult, excruciatingly laborious path.
I’m quote despondent at not being able to find a church which actually believes that salvation is a free gift. Tomorrow I’ll be visiting a different church. Hopefully they’re the one which does.
I would agree john if it didn’t say “mortal bodies”, as opposed to our immortal resurrection bodies. Certainly the Holy Spirit dwelling in us quickens our mortal bodies to overcome sin if we choose to walk in it. I know it’s not gospel specific so I don’t want to hang on it too much.
Phil, I know that water baptism doesn’t save and all that, I was only wondering if those verses could have been referring to it, not in a saving way though. I’m not a Catholic anymore! haha.
Brad, I think this refers to our physical resurrection at the time of the rapture. I don’t see this referring to our growing in Christlikeness.
Water baptism is meant to be an outward symbol of an inward reality in which is we are baptized into Christ’s death and raised to new life.
Holly, when it says we have been quickened together with Him, is that the same thing that is being referred to in Romans 8:11?
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
That verse above always appeared to me to be talking about a practical sanctification via walking in the Spirit, in that it refers to our mortal bodies specifically.
So would there be a positional quickening and a practical quickening being taught in scriptures? Thanks for your answers btw.
Brad, I agree with John.
Believers are placed ‘in Him’ or ‘baptized into Jesus Christ’ (placed into one body by one Spirit) 1 Cor 12:13, see also Gal 3:27), baptized into his death (old man crucified/died to the law). We are risen again/quickened by the Spirit, new creation. There is only ‘one baptism’ according to Eph 4:4-6 as far as our position in Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Col 2:10-15
Okay thanks. A literal placing into Christ’s body (and by extension, His perfectly lived life, death, burial, resurrection and ascension) by the Holy Spirit.
Brad, this is referring to baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism.
If it were taking about water baptism, it wouldn’t refer to all Christians.
It is the spiritual reality of what has happened to all Christians.
Amen Phil. Perhaps these people who believe it can be lost just don’t see how much happens to a person when they are saved, they see possessing salvation as nothing more than possessing a couch or a television, you know, things that can easily be lost.
Your post is quite timely for the question I have:
Romans 6:3-6 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
What type of baptism is being referred to here? I was under the impression it is talking about a positional reality of being immersed into the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Christ. But I am also thinking it could be water baptism.
To lose salvation, the new nature in us would have to sin, and the life of God removed from us. We would have to be unmade new creatures, which is impossible.
Hy Brad, as to your earlier comment about the Bible not saying anything about how salvation could be lost. You’re right; it does not. There is another absolute proof that salvation cannot be lost. We have died with Christ, and have been buried with Christ with all our sins, and raised with Christ as new creations in the righteousness of Christ received as a gift credited to us. Spiritually, we have already arrived and are seated in the heavenlies. To those who say we can loose all this, are they saying we can undo what Christ has done through our future sins?
We have been made new creations because of what Christ has done for us at Calvary. not by our changing and reforming ourselves.
A believer soul in the finished work of Christ Jesus can not go to hell if they wanted to.
as a believer breaks fellowship with God in Santification.
We can not choose the consequences of allowing the manifestation of sin in our lives. and in grieving the Holy Spirit
Exactly. Jesus died for all sins ONCE.
It is finished, it is done.
For an unsaved person, they only experience the second death once, regardless of how many individual sins they committed in their lives. In the same way, Christ died the death that we were scheduled to die ONCE as was necessary to save us.
As a child of God, I still deserve to go to hell and I still don’t deserve the eternal life given to me freely through faith. How can I, by my sins, deserve something even less than not at all?
John 6:47, many believe only their past sins were paid for and even though Col 2:13-15 and others tell us otherwise, they say sins only up until the time you were born again, and then the confession in 1 John 1:9 is seen for forgiveness (judicially speaking) for the rest of their life here. I try to explain to them that this is not what 1 John 1:9 speaks of, but so many in not understanding the purpose statement and audience of 1 John just don’t get it. All you can do is keep giving them the Word and praying for the Lord to move them to listen.
Jason, I ask them the same questions (those who think they can lose/keep their salvation). They are so hyper-focused on the big sins that they just can’t seem to understand they have a beam of self-righteousness clouding their sight, many likely are blinded by the god of this age and need to hear the gospel.
In addition, if salvific loss were possible, wouldn’t that mean that whatever sin makes you lose your salvation is more powerful than the Blood of Christ? If Jesus paid for all of my sins, and He did, how many sins are left to damn me to hell? If there is still something that can damn me to hell after salvation, then all would have to mean all EXCEPT (fill in the blank).
Brad, again, excellent points.
It’s just that these people who subscribe to these doctrines just don’t think these things through all the way.
Another example, the bible makes it abundantly clear that we are saved by believing (entrusting) the gospel of Jesus Christ for salvation. It is said over 150 times plainly and directly.
Now, if that salvation could be lost, the bible is very strangely silent on the matter (besides the small handful of verses people take out of context). Wouldn’t the bible be just as persistent with telling us how we could lose salvation as it is with telling us how to gain it?
Salvation is a big deal, so losing that salvation would be an equally big deal. But again, the bible is very hushed on the matter.
Now we know the bible doesn’t teach that you can lose it. I am directing this at anyone reading who may believe that it can be lost.
If it could be lost, don’t you think Jesus would have IMMEDIATELY and CLEARLY clarified such a matter after, for example, telling Nicodemas how to be saved? Or when Paul told the Philippian jailer how to be saved?
And for God not to be the author of confusion, He also would have had to explain in the clearest concisest detail HOW salvation could be lost, so not to be left up to the subjective interpretation of the fallible reader.
Brad, very good points.
For those who believe you can lose salvation. Given it only took a single sin to lead to the downfall of this world and all humanity. It would realistically only take a single sin to lose salvation.
Sin is a HUGE deal in God’s sight, why would he permit ANY sin? Why would he say for example, “Oh you can sin 100 times after being saved, but the 101st time you will be booted out of my family”. That would mean God would be condoning/permitting the first 100 sins.
Also for those who believe you must turn from a certain amount of sin to get to heaven, how much? If your answer was anything less than 100% then you are not meeting God’s standard for righteousness. If God told us that you had to turn from 80% of your sin to get to heaven for example, he would be permitting/condoning the other 20%.
I know you cannot lose salvation by sinning, nor earn it by not sinning, just bringing these false doctrines to their logical ends.
John 6:47, yes, Revelation 21:27 is a great verse to emphasize that imputed perfection is the standard.
Fantastic article! I can absolutely agree 100% that the god of Lordship Damnation is certainly themselves. Since their jesus is incapable of paying for sin once and for all, they think they have to pay for their sins by their “good” works. And since they are the arbiters of how many works are required to get, maintain, or prove salvation, they immediately start comparing themselves to other people. “Well I know I tell little white lies every now and then, but you can’t commit THOSE big sins and still be saved.” However, Revelation 21:27 says that even telling a single lie is enough to bar the way to Heaven if you don’t have Christ’s imputed righteousness.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Brad, you bring up an interesting point. Their double emphasis on “Lord” does seem to be imploring Him to acknowledge their suitability for eternal life, based on their obedience to Him via their works.
Hey I just saw something when reading Matthew 7:22-23.
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity”
Now we all know that this verse is talking about what Jesus will say to those trusting in their works to get to heaven.
They say “Lord, Lord”.
I always wondered why these unsaved people said the word “Lord” twice. I have a theory on this.
They were 100% focused on making Jesus lord of their lives (doing works for salvation) that they never focused on Jesus being saviour of their lives.
Instead of saying “Lord, Saviour”, they said “Lord, Lord”.
God bless you Holly. That is a fantastic article. So many ways people are deceived into thinking they are saved without ever actually being saved.
Holly, I was referring to the article you linked.
Brad and John, I have posted it yet (assuming you mean the positional vs. practical/progressive/ongoing sanctification). I taught it in my women’s Bible study – online conference call. When I get it more of a paper vs. an outline with me talking, I’ll send it over to John to look at (for any help on wording or Bible verses etc) and I’ll get it posted then. In Christ, Holly
Otherwise, if you’re speaking of the gospel and subtle issues and bad language we let creep into our gospel presentations, it is this link (basically a repost of an older article):
https://redeemingmoments.com/2017/09/21/has-the-wrong-language-crept-in-to-your-gospel/
Please, if any of you see redundancy (I’m sure there is) or any grammar or other issues, don’t hesitate to let me know.
Brad, I understand. I will look for Holly to link it so that we get the right one.
The one Holly just referred to.
Brad, which article?
They would have believed a whole bunch of contradictory things and would spend the rest of their lives being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. My aim right now is to find a doctrinally sound church, but when I am at these churches I have this strong urge to show them their errors. I suppose showing them a good gospel booklet would be the best way to go.
Positional versus literal is so important. Positionally as believers we are sinless in God’s sight, but literally we are still sinners, as an example.
I’d like to read that article you wrote if you can link it please.
Brad, if a nonbeliever were listening to that pastor, would they have believed? And believed what? How sad… Maybe send him a link from cleargospel.org on the gospel handbook, or Pastor Cucuzza’s booklet on how to know you are going to heaven. I think I’ve kind of cemented in my mind what Tuesday’s women’s study will be on. I was teaching on progressive/practical sanctification vs. positional, and we’ve had a couple parts, but I have had this on my mind that people need to know language that really isn’t used in the Scripture. I did an article on it a few years back regarding subtle language that has crept into our ‘gospel’.
God being omniscient knew every sin we would ever commit, that is how he could punish Christ perfectly for all of it.
So there’s nothing left for us to do, it is already done.
It’s not just good news, it’s the best news. The just for the unjust, the righteous for the unrighteous, the godly for the ungodly.
If we could have earned our own way to heaven then Jesus wouldn’t have had to come down and die for us.
It is heard of in this world of people laying down their lives for those who love them. But Jesus laid down his life for those who hated, mocked and scorned Him. There is just no greater demonstration of love than that.
Brad, you are right – one’s good intentions have nothing to do with whether or not something is true.
No one could ever have assurance of eternal life if they have to have works to show they are “truly saved.”
We don’t have to confess sins to receive eternal life, nor do we have to ask for forgiveness to be saved.
We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
A person must know he is a sinner, in need of a Savior in order to understand and believe the gospel. If He died for our sins, that means we had sins.
I go to try a church today and just more mixed messages. The pastor told me that as long as I have a clear conscience I am saved. He had me say a sinner’s prayer asking God into my life. He told me I have to confess my sins for them to be forgiven. He told me I have to “ask God for forgiveness” in order to be saved. He told me if a person is truly saved he will have works to show for it. He also told me that Jesus Christ paid for my sins on the cross.
Mixed messages. If someone ignorant of scripture was talking with him he would have lead them straight off the cliff into lordship salvation.
He did give me a free KJV bible, so at least there’s that. Now I can do a bible study with my mum!
The thing that upsets me the most is how well meaning he was. He genuinely cared, but has been misled.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions…
Just like we wouldn’t use even one quote from Spurgeon, prince of lordshippers, or one article from James White.
Jack Hyles = Praying from pulpit
IFB mind control cult.. best not to listen to any sermons from Jack Hyles.
Backdoor Works for Lordship Salvation
key words “show me” “produce”.
But that has already been provided by Holy Spirit and is a byproduct of abiding in Christ through the Word of Christ.
I only know of Jack Hyles from sermons I have listened to from him. He certainly preached the gospel and was consistent with grace as far as I heard. I don’t really want to discuss him though, just thought I’d include that quote of his for the discussion we were having.
I missed Brad’s quote of Jack Hyles on September 24, 2017 at 6:04 pm. FYI, Hyles is Vindictive Fundamental Dogmatist (IFB) and King James Only. He was full of pride, and his congregation erected an obelisk to his memory. He was abusive, and in their eyes he could do no wrong. If this is the “not new nature”, I want no part in it. It is absolutely creepy.
Johninnc, unfortunately, this one supposedly doesn’t preach repent from sins in conjuction with salvation, but still, they get hung up by making a distinction between ‘certain sins’ and therefore they slide right off the track of whatever truth they once may have spoken.
And besides no longer being straightforward about the way of truth, no way they can make someone a disciple. Just frustrating to see.
Fryingpan9, seems ridiculous to consider that someone would buy it, but I read somewhere her excuse was supposedly the golden commode was an antique so not really for ‘sitting’? I guess that explains it then!
Brad I think if people are focused on the ‘big sins’ then they can sweep their little ones under the carpet. I agree, it has to be so they feel good about themselves, ‘I thank you God that I am not like that sinner’…(sound familiar?) 🙂 They just can’t ‘see’ Rev. 21:27 (as John mentioned).
Curtis true! We are either walking in the flesh or by the Spirit. Hard for people to reconcile at times, but when we do, I think it’s easier to figure out where to set our mind back to, where to re-fix our gaze.
Brad, I think they are different, but related.
I think 2 Peter 1:3-4 means that upon salvation, God has equipped us to Grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (understanding more of His divine nature). The next few verses discuss Christian growth.
So there is a difference between partaking of the divine nature and possessing a new nature?
That makes sense. We are exactly the way God intended us to be when he made man. That includes our unique traits. He would have been clearer if he left the word “man” unqualified in that statement.
Jason, I think what Ron meant is that some components of our personality, etc. are passed onto the new man.
I’m surprised to hear the word “infusion” from Shea’s lips.
“Genetic component of the old man” sounds confusing. I like much better the way Ralph Arnold said it. Being born again is not like converting your living room into a garage. It is more like adding a garage. God does not change what is old but gives you something that is entirely new.
Brad, of course the divine nature existed before we were partakers of it.
There is a very good discussion of regeneration at Clear Gospel. Please find below a link and pertinent excerpts. Note that you may have formatting issues with the link, in which case it would be helpful to select text and paste it to a Word document:
In a similar manner, when the believer is regenerated, God’s life goes forth into the formation of the new person. This is the very life which has existed for eternity, the very life which is in fact incapable of death! But while the regenerate man derives his life from God, there is no component portion of him which could be distinctly and exclusively identified as God. The person of God does indeed indwell the believer, but that is not regeneration, it is indwelling. That which indwells him is the eternal creator God. But the regenerate nature infused into man is not God. It is a new person separate and distinct from God!…
So it is with regeneration. Although God’s life is in the regenerate man, it has been irreversibly fused in some way to some “genetic” component of the old man to form a separate new entity. God’s life is no longer a separate identifiable component of the regenerate person, therefore, Gods’ life could not be extracted from that person. Once the new man is formed, he cannot be separated into his original components any more than I could extract my life from my daughter.
http://old.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=25&c_id=256
We walk in the Spirit (capital S) in order to not fulfil the lusts of the flesh. Is it coincidence that the qualities of the Spirit (again, capital S) in Galatians 5:22 are the same qualities as the new nature? If we are made partakers of the divine nature, does that not demonstrate that the nature existed before we were made partakers of it?
I would love to discuss this without contention, it is important (but not vital). Disagreement is welcomed!
I agree that the new nature is not the Holy Spirit. The spirit and the Spirit are not the same thing but are related. The Eastern “Orthodox” Church seems to think they are.
Brad, not exactly. The Holy Spirit is God, therefore omniscient. Our new nature has some of God’s characteristics, but is missing others.
Would it be fair to say the new nature IS the Holy Spirit? Given these Scriptures:
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Pastor Jack Hyles said this:
The new birth is not the beginning of a new nature. It is the One Who is the Beginning entering a person. This is why Paul could say, “Christ in me, the hope of glory.” Being born again is not a new nature being begun; it is the nature of Christ Himself entering into us as we are “born from the Beginning” or “have the Beginning born in us.”
The CROSS is necessary to deal with the OLD SIN NATURE.
While the HOLY SPIRIT is necessary to enable the NEW NATURE.
I cannot live the Christian Life.
it must be by faith in Jesus Christ who lives it through me by means of the Spirit.
Holly, that someone you thought was sound should be able to see that his false gospel is the same false gospel that Franklin Graham teaches.
Below is a quote from Franklin Graham:
“Maybe gays that are watching want to know, ‘Can God forgive me? Or can I go to heaven as a gay person?’ Absolutely. But the same for any of us. We have to repent of our sins in turn. A person cannot stay in adultery and be accepted by God. You’ll have to repent.
Graham continued, “Franklim Graham is a sinner, and I’m no better than a gay person. I’m a sinner. But I’ve been forgiven, and I’ve turned from my sins. For any person that’s willing to repent in turn, God will forgive him.”
My comment: This false view of the gospel attempts to turn the free gift of eternal life into a trade.
Graham’s father, evangelist Billy Graham, redefined “gift” into “greater gift” in one of his false comments regarding how to have eternal life. Following is an excerpt from that quote:
Giving up something to follow Christ is not earning salvation; it is giving up what keeps you from salvation. When we hold on to something that is dearer to us than receiving the greater gift of salvation in Christ, we lose.
My comment: Following Christ in discipleship is not the same thing as believing in Him for eternal life. Billy Graham confuses the two, and in so doing, creates a false gospel of works.
Brad, correct. Revelation 21:27 makes this point explicitly.
Yep Brad, its what is not said that can be just as misleading as what is said.
another of weak and false teaching is they can not say “Eternal Life is a Free Gift” or “Free Gift of Eternal Life”
I have found when that is left unsaid in doctrine the teaching is lacking dicernment of our Position in Christ and Our Condition. The 3 Tenses of Salvation
Justification Sanctification Glorification.
That We Have beed blessed with all Spirtual Blessings. Trusting Christ Jesus as our Saviour.
Our Perfect Postion in Christ does not change in spite of ourselves.
Christ Died for the ungodly and that Qualifies me. That’s enough to go to heaven but not enough to live the Christian Life.
The Christian Life is lived by our relationship to the Holy Spirit.
at anytime we our either Spiritual or Carnal. Walking in the Spirit or in The Flesh.
God wants to show us by failure were we our trying to live the Christian Life by ourselves.
You will not hear a legalist admit failure they will hang on fighting against God until their faith blow’s up blow’s down or blow’s out.
God’s Word defines sin as anything that falls short of God’s glory (perfection). So everything we do is stained with sin. Even the greatest work we can muster up is imperfect filthy rags in God’s sight.
Men like to change the definition of what sin is, so they can feel good about themselves. When I was first saved I did this. Looking only at “big sins” while ignoring other sins that I deemed personally to not be as serious.
In God’s sight ALL SIN IS DAMNING.
Holly Garcia, I got a good chuckle from the golden commode comment . . . And I’m not typically into toilet humor. 😉
Brad, I always shake my head in sadness, it’s the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes. John MacArthur tells them there is no such thing as a carnal Christian so therefore it must be so. (According to them).
Ray Comfort(less) tells them that you need to turn from ALL your sin, so therefore it must be the truth.
Joyce Meyer says she has stopped sinning, and is not a sinner because she’s a saint. I’m guessing that’s why she needed a gold commode.
Those who are a little more realistic stick with the ‘big sins’, they don’t fornicate, so they’re not going to hell.
Or even someone I formerly thought was sound, I heard recently say that if a homosexual doesn’t give up all their homosexual activity, then they cannot be saved. How does that not appear to him to be the same as turning from sin before you can be saved? It’s because they aren’t thinking with the mind of Christ, they have become legalistic themselves and cannot see and WILL NOT be questioned by others.
It was a blind spot I had myself. I would fool myself into thinking I was consistent.
I was reading a comment section of one of your posts on redeemingmoments Holly and saw a person who believed God’s Word did not speak of carnal Christians and when you showed him the clear verses from 1 Corinthians about it, he seemed to just outright ignore your points and keep believing what he believed. Which I found astounding. They have a theological blind spot.
God bless you and everyone else on this website on your efforts for the Word.
Brad, turning from sin was listed as a work in Jonah 3:9-10, and yet people still will not see. They’ll frequently cite Jesus saying ‘go and sin no more’, and yet not look into the context of what was being said to the particular person in the incidents.
The entrance of His Word brings light (Ps 119:130), we know we can hide it in our hearts to help us keep from sinning (Ps 119:11) although we know in the discourse in Romans 7, we still practice what we don’t want to do because we have sin still dwelling in us. His Word cleanses us (John 17:17; Eph 5:26), so taking heed to it (Ps 119:9) is a very good thing for us to do 🙂 Adding to our faith is a great thing to do (2 Pet 1:5-9) so we can bear fruit, along with of course abiding in the vine (John 15:5) and continuing in His Word (John 8:31-32; Lk 10:38-42). In Christ.
Religion is the way of men.
Brad, exactly. God’s ways are not the ways of men.
Yeh. There’s this false doctrine floating around that good deeds pay for bad deeds. According to God’s Word, there is only two ways that a person’s sins can be paid for; either by them going to hell for eternity, or by them trusting Christ alone as their saviour.
There are actually people out there who believe they have achieved sinless perfection in this lifetime! Even if that were possible (and it isn’t) it still doesn’t account for the sins they had already committed up to that point.
The more I read God’s Word, the more true it rings to me that the ways of God are NOT the ways of men. At. All.
Brad, you make some good points.
Even if someone could repent of sin, their sin still had to be paid for. And, only Jesus could do that for us.
We have tried repeatedly to advance explanations of scripture that are consistent with grace. Some people find grace compelling, some don’t.
Thanks for that info John. I don’t understand how people can think repent means turn from sin, when that would mean that God Himself turned from sin multiple times. They are calling God a sinner by holding that position.
Have you ever put that point to somene who believes repent means turn from sin? How do they reconcile that one?
Brad, please see link below. If you have problems with formatting, you may need to select the text and copy it onto a Word document.
http://old.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=27&c_id=313
Also, from Tom Cucuzza’s booklet on repentance:
a. The Old Testament. Let me say that there is no direct grammatical relationship between the Hebrew and Greek words for repentance. The KJV translators decided to use the same English word in both the Old and New Testaments. In the Old Testament, we find there are two Hebrew root words translated as repent. The first is the word nacham, which appears in its various forms 108 times. It means to sigh or breathe deeply. Out of the 108 times this Hebrew word is found, it is translated as comfort and comforter 66 times. Only 41 times is it translated repent. It is also translated as the word ease 1 time. This word nacham is usually used in reference to God, not man. The other Hebrew word is shub which basically means to turn or return. This is used 391 times. It is also translated as again, and is used 248 times. It is only translated as repent 3 times.
If repentance means “turning from one’s sin,” a problem arises. As we read the Old Testament we not only have a God who frequently turns from His sins, we also have a God who frequently refuses to turn from His sins! This simply makes no sense, seeing God has no sins to turn from. This fact should sound an alarm in the mind of any Bible believing Christian about the meaning of repentance.
2Tim 2 :15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Would like to address reading the scriptures “literally”.
Suppose you wanted Granite Countertops installed in your kitchen and you spent time and resources searching out and picking out the perfect slabs of stone.
You hire someone who takes you “litteraly”
to install your choice stone.
The installers show up with your slabs and sledgehammers to break up your slabs and place pieces ontop of your counters.
you said you wanted granite countertops installed? Thats a literal interpretation.
you didn’t say you wanted slabs “Rightly Divided”.
So much more should we take heed and study our workmanship when reading scripture.
Normal
Grammatical
Contexual
Historically
.
Context, Content, Compare, Conclude
Has anyone done any research on the hebrew word translated to “repent” or “repentance” in the old testament? I would research it myself but I really can’t be bothered sifting through the mountains of websites telling me I have to turn from my sins. Just wondering if anyone has any information on it.
Jason, agree.
Let’s move on from this topic.
“it’s always important to only believe things that have supporting evidence”
Isn’t that how science is supposed to work? No support for evolution but plenty for a globe.
Jason it’s always important to only believe things that have supporting evidence. It can happen to people, as it has to me in the past, that just because they have uncovered some truth about something they hadn’t seen before, there must also be hidden truths in unrelated topics as well. It’s called a conspiratorial worldview where everything has to be different to what we’ve been told. That may be where things like flat earth theorism comes from.
These people who believe this, their possible logical walk would be: “I don’t trust the government —> NASA is part of the government —> NASA says the world is round —> therefore the world is flat”.
I am just using that as an example. The main point I am making (not just to you obviously) is don’t just leap into the first rabbit hole you see. I know I am much better off because of it.
I just follow God’s Word now and my worldview has never been clearer because of it. The simplicity in Christ silences the complications of this world.
When I was new, I asked rhetorically, is the earth flat? I was facetious. My world seemed confusing.
Ah ok Holly. It amazes me that parts of humanity are regressing back to believing the earth is flat. I shall stop talking about it now.
Reading Curtis’ first comment on this post,
Romans 4:4-5 is so important. I want to try and write it in the clearest way possible.
“To the person who trusts in their works to get to heaven, they will have to go to hell because of their unpaid-for sin debt. But to the person who does not trust in their works, but trusts in Jesus Christ’s payment for their sins, it is their faith that allows them entrance into heaven.”
I know I didn’t have to do that, but whatever 🙂
I used to think the flat earth society was a joke. Then Youtube happened.
Brad – sorry, was in comment to the flat earth believer
, the passage was Is 44 not Is 40, but still, people take select verses in any theories and don’t use the whole counsel of God as they come up with new theories. I known John didn’t want to spend any time on this, so just didn’t want to ignore you. We’ll leave it with the verse 🙂
I reject your comment, “Subjective confirmation of being born again should come in time.” In fact I reject the concept of subjective confirmation for assurance. We cannot ever confirm our salvation or assurance upon our behavior or works (subjective).
For a believer to wrestle with subjective confirmation (introspection) is to undermine their assurance.
Jack wrote this comment less than 3 months before he died. He was weak, and could barely see, but he was tireless in his defense of the gospel.
Amen Jack
Introspection causes a soul to go look for someone kind of part to play in salvation. I got some kind of value somewere to play apart for salvation or to help God out to live the Christian Life. both thoughts treacherous one leads to Hell the other a defeated unfruitfull tormented Christian life
Chas, I am very thankful for the life of Jack Weaver and for this site that he founded.
Johninnc:
Many thanx for that quote from the late Jack Weaver. I sure wish I’d found this site before he went home!
What do you mean, Holly?
I just have to add, to use Isaiah 40, but not use context…
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. Is 40:22
Johninnc – your reposted comment of Jack’s on 9-17 brought tears to my eyes, and I though immediately of the power of Christ resting upon him in his weakness.
2 Cor 12:7-10
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
Isaiah 40:22 – It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
The Biblical Hebrew word for “circle” (חוג—chuwg) can also mean “round” or “sphere.”
The bible told us the earth was round thousands of years before mankind discovered it. Christopher Columbus’ historic voyage around the earth to prove this was actually inspired by this verse.
DTaylor Welcome
Yes the Focus of expreacherman.com is the Clarity of the Gospel of Grace The Truth of The Gospel of Christ.
Yes we/ most are aware of the flat earth society. I have personally met a young man who is and now hopefully free of the flat earth conspiracy theory.
There is plenty of information that debunks the fallicy of a flat earth out there on the internet.
You will not find us debating this topic at expreacherman.com
The earth is a round globe
Phil, the LSers think that the extent to which one wants to sin, or not, is pertinent in whether or not a person has eternal life.
John, I think you said it well:” a person must know he is a sinner in need of a Savior.” Romans chapters 3 and 5 make this very clear, and the sinner finds his Savior in these and other passages.
Too often we grace alone believers are portrayed like we just believe the gospel of our salvation and that’s it without what CAUSED US to trust in Christ saving work on the Cross as our only hope as helpless sinners that only Christ can redeem. We get accused of accepting Christ and then living like the devil. These legalists LS’rs hypocrates need to read what grace only believers have to say on this grace fellowship forum. and the day to day struggles with sins and how we seek to walk by the Spirit seeking to overcome sins. We here are not trying to save ourselves: we already have a Savior that has already won our complete eternal salvation.
D Taylor, I would rather not spend a lot of time on this topic. I believe the earth is round.
Just wanted to say that Eternal Life is as The Gospel of John says, anyone who believes that Jesus of the New Testament is the promised Messiah from the Old Testament receives the Gift of God : Eternal Life and no action can be added to faith,belief,trust.
John 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
I know this sites main focus is exposing the false teachings of lordship salvation
But I also wanted to pass along, something i came across last March. First i would like say that i take the Bible literally example i believe that God created Adam and Eve etc.. about creation God created everything as stated in the Bible as it is stated.
With that said if you have not heard of this yet i would look it this topic about creation and that is. The earth God created what does it look like. Is it a spinning ball traveling through space as our God hating evolutionary scientist tell us. Or is it, as described in the Bible a flat stationary earth with the sun moon and stars moving around the flat earth. Not one time when looking into the original text/language of the Bible is there any mention of planets or a universe being created but again and again you see in the Bible God speaking about creating the Heavens (1,2,3) and the Earth.
Take a look at Genesis 1:6-18 God states He created a raqia (vault, firmament, expanse, some also say dome) and placed the sun, moon and stars in the raqia Genesis 14,15 and 17. Also notice that there is water above the raqia and below the raqia with the sun moon and stars placed in between these waters.
Genesis 1:6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
Also take a look at Joshua 10:12-15 the sun and moon stop for a whole day showing that it is the sun moving around the earth and not the earth moving around the sun.
12 Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel:
“Sun, stand still over Gibeon; And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still, And the moon stopped, Till the people had revenge Upon their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. 14 And there has been no day like that, before it or after it, that the Lord heeded the voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel.
Not trying to start a big debate but just wanted to pass this along to anyone who may want to look into this, in the Bible for themselves.
other verses Isaiah 44:24
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
The question is, has the governments of the world guided by satan created this false God less creation, a globe earth. Simply to hide the very creation that testifies to the God of the Bible and keep many people from believing in the God of the Bible.
Jason, we have had people come on here and insist that someone must verbally confess Christ as Lord, or make some other verbal confession in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. None of that is true.
Someone must know he is a sinner, in need of a Savior in order to understand and believe the gospel. After all, if Christ is righteous, that distinguishes Him from us. If He was delivered for our offenses, and raised again for our justification, that means we had offenses and needed justification through Him. And, if He died for our sins, that means we had sins.
How often we hear, confess that you are a sinner, along with a gospel presentation. Confession about something or other. It often goes along with other careless sayings that aren’t scriptural. But unlike the mumbo jumbo, there are passages that mention confession in some sense.
Perhaps they don’t mean it literally. Sometimes the message may be otherwise consistent with eternal security. For instance, Afshin thinks it is ok if verbal confession is a way of expressing faith but should never be used as a barometer. Anderson requires it, and this is where he goes LS. (They both have other issues, this is just an example.) The whole thing makes me cringe, and yet it is one of those things that did not used to bother me, unless it was made into a ritual as with Billy Graham.
Chas, you said: Over the weekend I got into it with somebody on a staunchly Pre-Trib prophecy site who claimed vehemently to believe in “faith alone” for salvation, only to go on to insist that “a saved person WILL have works…” etc. etc.
My comment: This reminded me of something that the late Jack Weaver wrote a few years ago to correct someone who was errantly asserting that “subjective confirmation of being born again should come in time.” Following is an excerpt:
I reject your comment, “Subjective confirmation of being born again should come in time.” In fact I reject the concept of subjective confirmation for assurance. We cannot ever confirm our salvation or assurance upon our behavior or works (subjective).
For a believer to wrestle with subjective confirmation (introspection) is to undermine their assurance.
Jack wrote this comment less than 3 months before he died. He was weak, and could barely see, but he was tireless in his defense of the gospel.
Regarding the whole “you should change” doctrine (which is true), I have found that in the last year of being saved, even when I was living sinfully God was still working it all for good anyways. I was growing in His grace regardless of how I was living. That has been my personal experience.
Interesting. It seems to be all about him, rather than the Word.
I once drove through Charlotte on a trip home from California, and I saw an exit along the freeway for a street named after Billy Graham.
Graham wrote a book called Just as I Am, but his message adds “but leave trasformed” to the gospel as a requirement.
Brad, agree. I live in Charlotte and have to pass by billboards for the Billy Graham Library, and a big display at the baggage claim area at our airport showing Billy Graham holding his Bible preaching.
By the way, the logo for the Billy Graham Library has his name in much larger font than for the word “library.”
They are all so slick and smooth on those TV channels. They dress nicely, speak calmly, stand in beautiful auditoriums and hold the bible while they speak. But they don’t teach God’s word. Looks truly can be deceiving. They package works for salvation in so many different imaginitive ways too.
Jason, I fixed it.
John, you had me and Brad confused, lol.
Agree, that TV preacher sounds goofy.
Brad, the teaching that you referenced sounds goofy.
I saw only one reference to “day star” in the Bible (2 Peter 1:19), and it didn’t seem to pertain to Satan.
I was watching one of those “Christian” TV stations earlier and wow, first thing I hear is a preacher saying that a person posseses only an old nature while they are sinning and posseses only a new nature while they are not. I turn it off for a minute, turn it back on and he is holding a Nintendo 64 and using it as some sort of biblical analogy. Was kinda funny. I think it was “Daystar”. Isn’t that a name given to Lucifer?
the stament below is not entirely mine and added corection and additions of my own.
The kind of error that we are dealing with cannot be afforded any assumption that it is a legitimate view. It is not a respectable alternative view of theology. It is more like a systemic Virus that poisons every aspect of scripture and Christianity. It creates spiritually dead Christians and lifeless churches. While the deceived Christians may be saved themselves, but the lifetime of evangelistic fruit to lost souls, love towards the saints and the Faith Rest Life they could have had will be thwarted. What this means is that many people unnecessarily wind up never hearing the gospel, or never getting the planting or watering that they need, and they go to hell without Christ.
If They are saved they torment themselves with looking at themselves for evidence of salvation competing against God to live the Christian Life.
That is not acceptable. It is not a legitimate alternative.
If the Calvanist and Arminian’s and all the other ist’s, ism’s and ite’s are right when it comes to ephesians 1:4 then:
1. Salvation is decided outside of Christ, which is both heresy and blasphemy.
2. All the Elect should be like John the Baptist and have the Holy Ghost from the mother’s womb with no need for regeneration or conversion. And,
3. Evangelism is really just pretend talk for a Hindu style enlightenment ministry for those who have always been elect and just don’t know it. If the Biblical position is Correct, then all people are born Sinners. They are in Adam, not Christ. They are without hope, and without God in the world. After hearing the gospel and trusting Christ, the believer is placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit. Once in Christ, all things are become new. The believer gets a new past, present, and future, and location, all due to one thing, and one thing only Their Postion IN CHRIST.
because John 3 :16 has the power of God to save a soul from lake of fire Hell.
but John 3 :16 does not tell a soul how the Christian Life is lived by our relationship to Holly Spirit through our response to the word of God in our thinking.
so Churchanity looks at self for evidence of salvation.
Chas, it is very frustrating to see people so focused on works and life change as evidence of eternal life. Our focus should always be on Christ’s righteousness for our hope of eternal life, not our own new and improved righteousness.
Regarding John 3:16, I’m sure if you asked an average Roman Catholic if they believed John 3:16 that they would quickly affirm that they do. I would have when I was RC. The problem is that RC doctrine employs double meanings for many key words. The RC church has been working full-time at countering “protestantism” ever since the Reformation began some 500 years ago. Words like “believe” and “saved” don’t have the unadorned, straightforward meaning they should have to any English-speaking person. By the same token, the “works” supposedly needed for salvation are drastically different between RCism and so-called Protestantism.
As far as that goes, even some “strict fundamentalists” (as opposed to Evangelicals and traditional Protestants) stumble over the definition of repentance, getting all tangled up in “changed lives” as proof of salvation. Over the weekend I got into it with somebody on a staunchly Pre-Trib prophecy site who claimed vehemently to believe in “faith alone” for salvation, only to go on to insist that “a saved person WILL have works…” etc. etc. Then the person rolled out a bunch of the usual misapplied proof texts, demonstrating their own complete misunderstanding of the very Scriptures they use for support. Besides me there was only one other person (out of 8 or more) attempting to expose the unbiblical lordship-salvation aspects of such beliefs, and counter them Biblically. Very frustrating.
Brad, I always like Hank, and look forward to seeing him and Jack again. I didn’t know that about changing your mind about sin, good point!
Johninnc, I saw that article, and I think we’re going to be seeing more of the ‘protestant’ or ‘reformed’ and Catholic finding common ground with each other. They are just finding this out? I think most of us saw it all along.
FryingPan – sorry, I am not very good with FB, but here are the exact names you can search that way.
Christians Explaining the Heresies of Calvinism and Lordship Doctrine
BIBLE BEREANS: Searching the Scriptures Daily
I imagine Jesus was a pretty skilled carpenter too and would not be looking for a welfare check or to create a Sharia no go zone. Oops, I just made it about politics.
11% think the catholic church teaches free grace and the protestants lordship? What a whopper.
Keith Urban sings about John 3:16, and he’s catholic.
The what if’s make me curious, too.
That’s a fantastic quote from Ron Shea. The NLT bible actually added the term “repent of sins”. I really do believe that these new bible translations are going downhill quickly. Hillsong church once gave me a bible that is literally a comic book, a huge emphasis on aesthetic pictures while sidelining the actual Word itself.
Hank Lindstrom made a good point that the term “repent of your sins” would contextually mean “change your mind of your sins”, which would mean a person changing their mind about sin (i.e. seeing sin as a good thing if they already saw it as bad).
RAS, I saw that, too. It shows that the “reverend” Jesse Jackson either doesn’t know how one receives eternal life, or misrepresents it.
This is not a comment about politics or the anti-christ but I just saw where the “Rev” Jesse Jackson just said this about the POTUS —“Trump says you must be able to speak the language English to be qualified and have a job skill. Jesus would not qualify to come in Trump’s country. He would not qualify to get into Jesus’ kingdom.”
“Rev” Ha!
One of our readers and commenters, Dan Frawley, sent me a compilation of surveys conducted on the subject of “the route to salvation.” I selected on of the more recent, to give a flavor.
It is entitled “A new dawn: Catholics and Protestants have a shocking amount in common, new Pew research finds.” The article seems to have originally been published in Christian Today. Following are some of the quotes:
Protestants and Catholics across the West now agree on so much – including the route to salvation being both faithand works – that Christians of past centuries would be shocked, according to a new Pew survey marking the Reformation’s 500th anniversary.
My comment: While Christians of past centuries might be shocked, I am not.
Meanwhile, more than half of US Protestants also now believe that church teaching and traditions are as important as the Bible when it comes to faith, the findings reveal.
My comment: my only surprise was that 48% think the Bible provides all of the religious guidance that Christians need. I would have thought the number would be lower.
The US survey found that around half of US Protestants (52 per cent) say that both good deeds and faith in God are needed to get into heaven — historically a Catholic position. The other half (46 per cent) say that faith alone is needed to attain salvation.
My comment: I am not surprised that as many as 46% say that faith alone is needed for salvation. Many who responded that way probably don’t know that some of what their churches teach contradicts their stated belief in salvation by grace alone.
Indeed, only 30 per cent of all US Protestants affirm both sola fide and sola scripture.
My comment: Again, I’m not surprised.
However, far fewer (23 per cent) know that only Protestants traditionally teach that salvation comes through faith alone; 45 per cent erroneously say that both Protestantism and Catholicism traditionally hold that position, and only 19 per cent say that neither religious tradition espouses sola fide, while one-in-ten US adults (11 per cent) say that only Catholicism traditionally teaches that salvation comes through faith alone.
My comment: This seems like “fake news.” I don’t know that only Protestants traditionally teach that salvation comes through faith alone. I don’t really think that most protestant religions really teach that.
Good to hear from you Preston..
Johninc please email a copy of the “what abouts”
Curtis M
@Holly. It appears one must already be in those Facebook groups to use those links . . . 🙂
Holly, when I click on the second and third links, I get the error message: “The page you requested cannot be displayed right now. It may be temporarily unavailable, the link you clicked on may be broken or expired, or you may not have permission to view this page”.
in proper context, content compare and the conclude.
When peter and john the Baptist were saying to repent They were addressing Jewish believers of God in the works of the mosaic law of Sacrifice for sins.
The Jews needed to repent of works for access to God and believe Jesus the Christ is the Final sacrifice The messianic saviour.
Repent means to change their minds of how access God.
God’s Standard for righteousness is Christ Jesus
Brad, Ron Shea has a good summary on this:
Repentance has no intrinsic subject. Anyone can repent, even God!
Repentance has no intrinsic object. It is not automatically directed toward sin. One can repent about virtually anything. One can even repent from good to evil!
Repentance has no intrinsic consequence. It does not automatically result in eternal salvation. It can result in any consequence that naturally follows the exercise God’s free will, or man’s free will.
The actual phrase “repent of your sins” never occurs in Scripture. NEVER!
The Bible never teaches that one must repent of their sins to be saved.
Whenever sin is the object of repentance, the consequence of repentance is never eternal salvation.
Whenever eternal salvation is the consequence of repentance, the object of repentance is never sin.
In every passage on repentance relating to eternal salvation, the object of repentance is, in some way or another, the person of Jesus Christ, his eternal divinity, his atoning death, His resurrection, or the freeness of the eternal salvation he provides. The object of saving repentance is no different than the elements of saving faith described in other terms throughout Scripture.
If you are able to remember these simple truths about biblical repentance, you will know more about repentance, and more about the doctrine of salvation, than 99.9% of the ministers filling the pulpits of Christian churches across the land. In the pages of this work, you will hopefully come to appreciate how deeply confused the church is over the very message of salvation, even at the pastoral level. With this dawning realization hopefully, you will develop a renewed sense of purpose in your Christian life . . . perhaps a purpose in your life that you have never before experienced.
The church will never fulfill the Great Commission as long as it is confused on the very message of the gospel! Certainly not while it continues to proclaim salvation by faith plus. And the church will never be lifted from its confusion unless each of those who understand the truth of the gospel labor to change it.
Jason, our statement of faith includes our belief in the pre tribulation rapture. We do have some readers who have expressed other views, but the pre-trib view is predominant.
I personally see a lot of fear in the post-trib view, including amassing of food, weapons and ammo and sales of “end of world” supplies by charlatans such as Jim Bakker.
Not only is The Clear Gospel of Grace The Truth of The Gospel free gift of eternal life to all who believe in/on upon the finished work of Christ Jesus. Given from pulpits in my area.
The Christian Life is lived by our relationship to Holly Spirit.
The biblical distinction between saved and lost.
the biblical distinction of the saved between being spiritual or carnal
is never made as well.
belivers are either in fellowship or carnal there is no middle ground.
if you treat everyone as saved and in fellowship with God a pulpit will never get in trouble.
a Pulpit should never assume everyone is saved and in fellowship with God
The Gospel message should adress both lost and saved.
thats a reason why we see so much confusion.
We need to keep it seperate in our thinking between Spirituality and Growth.
Spirituality being born again happens in a fraction of a second by believing.
Growth takes time and no 2 belivers are the same and no pulpit should try to make them the same.
Growth happens by allowing the Word of God to saturate our thinking.
1john 1:7 is prevention Walking in fellowship with God allowing are thinking to be adjusted before sin finds expression..
1john 1:9 is corection when sin does find expression.
there is no power in confession of sin. Confession of sin clears the way to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
its what we do not do to be filled with the Spirit..
Ad a finger nail clipping or a finger print to Grace it nullifies Grace.
Spirituality is invisible and vertical
Holly, I could not find your group on Google or Facebook search. All sorts of “Berean Bible” churches (mostly LS), but not “Bible Bereans”.
The word “Berean” hardly means anything anymore.
If the word repent means a turn from sin then the bible contradicts itself, it simply cannot mean that inside of biblical context. The KJV translators by and large did a great job translating the bible, but using the word repent was a grievous mistake. Satan has made great use of it.
The word repent has become nothing more than a mantra of legalism. So many people are just theologically stuck on it. If someone comes along and tells them the true gospel, there is a mental block in their head that just screams “BUT WHAT ABOUT WHEN JESUS TOLD US TO REPENT??!??!??” and they go back to sleep.
Holly, I too might look for that group. Thanks
Most people in here are pre-tribbers. And probably most are politically conservative.
I don’t think pre-trib belief is essential for salvation, but it clarifies much confusion. I think post-trib causes fear and is contrary to the doctrine of Christ.
It seems that dispensationalism and Israel are topics frequently discussed.
Cheers
I have accounts on Facebook, Skype, and Discord.
Quoting John the Baptist is probably not the best way to present the gospel. I think it actually causes confusion in today’s LS-dominated environment where everyone is programmed to think that “repent” refers to sin. I can identify with the urge to talk about politics. I used to go around asking people what they thought of Obama.
I don’t have any social media accounts, sorry.
Fair enough. The rapturees wouldn’t need to care anyways haha. The last thing I’ll say is that the gospel is the most important thing to get right. So many people talk about fighting the political/social realities society is marching towards as if they are avoidable in any way. This is all biblical prophecy, it simply will happen. The tribulation isn’t going to be a walk in the park, frankly nor will the immediate lead up to it be.
So we need to always remember the eternal destiny of a soul is the most important thing and you’re right, people of all walks of life need to get this right, they only have one chance. Trusting Jesus alone as savior means a person wont even be around to experience the darkest times in world history.
Brad, I don’t know. I would rather not use this site to speculate on who the antichrist will be.
John, in relation to that quote from Keith, do you believe the Antichrist will be a US president? The shoe seems to fit nicely.
Religions of all sorts – including “Christian” dominionism – stand in opposition to God’s will.
I would like to interject the following excerpt from a comment that Keith made a few months ago.
I also concur with John’s questioning of America as ever having been a “Christian” nation in the way many understand it. This nation was founded on the principle of religious freedom, which provides a climate in which the biblical Gospel can go forth unhindered to be freely accepted or rejected by its citizens as well as exported to other nations. Some groups with a dominionist mindset like to call America a Christian nation because of their worldly and misguided ambition to establish the kingdom of God on earth by surreptitiously merging church with state, rather than believing that Christ will establish His kingdom at the Second Coming. However, they are unwittingly helping to establish the kingdom of the antichrist rather than Christ’s kingdom, which is not of this world (John 18:36).
Jason, the problem with life change as a Christian “testimony” is that it gives the impression that receiving eternal life requires allowing God to change one’s life, with the implication being that life change must occur to evidence eternal life.
I also have experienced the bewilderment. Any more, even when I hear of changed hearts and transformed lives, I cringe at the possibility that underlying these words is false teaching and confusion about the heart. There is nothing good in us, and God does not change what is already there but gives us something entirely new, his incorruptible seed.
Isn’t it interesting how the implication behind all the false biblical theologies (such as LS) is that the bible contradicts itself? The seeds of doubt are sown subsonsciously right away.
Since being saved I have had people suggest to me that the bible is unreliable and needs to be added to/subtracted from. The interesting thing I have found is that when I reject those suggestions they immediately back off and change the topic. It is as if they are unwilling to just say directly to my face that the bible is wrong, they would rather say it in a coded indirect way.
This seems to be what the false teachers do as well, they repeatedly imply their doctrine in what I would call passing statements but they would rarely sit down and in lamen’s terms just say what they mean. They like to run logical circles around you instead. One moment they say faith alone and the very next moment they say by works, rinse and repeat.
I have been researching hypnosis (new age origins) and what I have found is that the hypnotist puts a person into a “trance” state commonly through confusing the subject momentarily, then in that moment of confusion the conscious mind is essentially disarmed and the subconscious mind receives the “sleep” command. It is the suggestion the hypnotist gives to the subject in an environment of confusion that causes the creation of the belief that “I am sleeping now”.
I believe there is something to that in how false teachers affect people. It is sometimes called neuro-linguistic programming. Essentially talking in a certain way, with certain words and certain hand movements.
Brad, you make some very good points. The Bible simply cannot contradict itself.
If we have to do works to be saved, then the bible blatantly contradicts itself in many areas. The verses that clearly state it is not of works would be at total odds with the supposed verses that teach it is by works. People who subscribe to this contradictory doctrine will attempt to reconcile their beliefs by concluding that it is only some works that don’t save, while other works do save.
From that logic, the most obvious question would be for example; which works would be the ones that save and which works would be the ones that don’t? Of course an answer is not given in the bible because the concept of faith plus works is a contradictive theology. It is then entirely left up to the subjective view of the person to decide for themselves what will save them and what won’t. This is where religion begins. One person’s perception of a sinless lifestyle might be another persons perception of a sinful lifestyle.
Why is the bible a book of absolutes? For this very reason, to avoid contradictive mentalities. If the onus is put upon the reader to decide what is right or wrong in God’s eyes, the reader will almost certainly get it wrong, as the ways of men are not the ways of God.
In an environment of confusion, it is incredibly tempting to just “throw up your hands” so to speak and give up trying to make sense of things. This is where Satan thrives. Why is it that so many teachers blatantly teach diametrically opposing doctrines, sometimes in the same sermon or even the same breath? Because now the listener is being told essentially that what they have just heard must make perfect sense, even if it does not, given the success or popularity the teacher has.
I believe many people base what they believe soloely upon what is the most popular, easily accessible or socially acceptable doctrine. It becomes a matter of pure vanity, which is largely what this world system thrives on. We may know this more simply as judging a book by its cover.
On this website and some others, there is a very healthy habit of reading the content of the book and ignoring the cover altogether, because the cover more often than not is deceptive. In a society of laziness, people just want quick answers to everything and anything that is a challenge to think about is thrown on the backburners.
Why are there so many groups in this world who attack the bible and attempt to discredit it? This is a good place to look for assurance in what the bible says. This world is against God, so the Word of God which is contained in the bible this world would also be against. It is not enough for them to just simply yell “the bible is wrong!”, but to also establish incredibly comprehensive belief systems tailored specifically to distracting people’s attention away from what is contained in the bible.
We see this especially in the new age movement, which is at the highest levels a series of beliefs given to certain people such as Alice Bailey and Helena Blavatsky through direct communications with demons who call themselves “ascended masters” or other names that imply credibility or honesty. These would be the same beings that people communicate with when using drugs like DMT, psychedelics, satanic rituals and ouija boards.
The interesting thing about the new age movement is that many of it’s beliefs are actually found in world religions, such as Buddhism (meditation), Hinduism (reincarnation), Scientology (aliens or extraterrestrials), Catholicism (men poessesing supernatural powers) etc.
The new age movement always throws Christianity under the bus, while propping up everything else. We need to ask ourselves – why is that? What are these beings so concerned about? If it is just another book, why all the hysteria surrounding it? Why is there such a social stigma in society by and large when it comes to reading the bible? Where did that stigma come from?
What will be phased out in the coming one-world religion? Put it is this way, it certainly wont be humanism. The pride of men will be held at the highest level. The pride of men is manifested in works for salvation. It is literally the biggest issue facing professing Christianity today and this website is at the tip of the spear in that fight.
Holly, just wow! Addressing the error in this person’s thinking would take a complete volume.
I don’t think you need to “ease up” on Greg Locke. He has at least one other person mesmerized with his heretical doctrine.
Holly, that is a good addition to the people who object to grace with the “what abouts? Ask them, “what about the sin in your life?”
A preacher named Greg Locke, who has a website, had this on his SOF.
“However, those who have trusted Christ are His and will obey Him and His Word. We do not believe a person can live any way they so desire and be saved….we must surrender.
When a couple of sound believers warned people to avoid this man, this woman, (the MeDoist and MeDonist) came in to say this: (reminds me of others I’ve seen come in to this site).
I disagree that this man is “adding to the Gospel.” The Scriptures most assuredly DO declare that a person is a new creature in Christ. “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” II Corinthians 5:17. “. . .behold all things are become new.” All means all, right? It is true that we are not automatically perfected, but a new creature in Christ Jesus means a new creature in Christ Jesus. Something is different. Something is new. This is not “adding” but rather acknowledging what we know to be truth in the Word.
“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
Ephesians 2:10.
If God has ordained the works, doesn’t sound “optional” to me.
Further, while we are certain of our salvation, we are not assured that we will be free from consequence if we refuse to walk in the light which is shed on us. John the Baptist chided the Pharisees for not showing sincerity in their actions,
“And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” Matthew 3:10.
Jesus, also, used a fruit tree to demonstrate what happens when there is “no fruit.”
“He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.” Luke 13:6-9.
And in the parable of the sower:
“But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.”
Luke 8:15.
There are consequences for a life devoid of fruit, and while we are not told precisely what, I believe it is possible that Ananais and Sapphira were examples. Even Paul expressed the possibility that if he was not obedient, he might be “disqualified.” (I Corinthians 9:27.)
I think we need to “ease up” on Greg Locke and consider that free grace is not synonymous with “free pass.”
Laughing, thinking on monkey see and monkey do.
What about MEdontDoism?
An old ‘friend’ shared my post with the caveat that she didn’t agree with my ‘theology’ or something to that effect. She believes she is saved because she ‘does’ DO this, or she DOESN’T do that.
I like to tell them, ask people who know you. Your wife, your husband, or in her case, her roommates and people who ran across her. If behavior was PROOF I am pretty sure the vote wouldn’t have been positive in her favor. Thank the Lord it is not by our works, promises, things we do, things we have stopped doing that grant or help us gain eternal life…
Excellent article John. I pray that somehow, someone will ‘hear’ this and understand the truth, and that the truth might set them free.
Phil, I believe the Holy Spirit is drawing everyone. And, while we may be discouraged at times, we know that the gospel is the single thing most worth advancing and defending.
I think what we are doing here, proclaiming and defending the gospel of grace alone, is the right approach. We see the example of how Paul defended the gospel from the LS legalists in Galatians.
We may be discouraged and frustrated at times and think the message of salvation by grace without works is at a stalemate against the arguments of LS’rs, but remember the power of the Holy Spirit working to help change peoples minds and believe the good news.
Sam, agree. Much of the blinding of people to the truth is done from pulpits.
Sorry to say this but their denominations are teaching them lordship or works salvation and most people believe whatever their denominations tell them.Their minds are blinded by the very same people that claim there going to help them.SAD very SAD
Jason, the MeDooism often accompanies METheism. And, sometimes it’s just accompanied by “MePromisetoDooism.”
Kate, reminding ourselves of the truth of the gospel through reading God’s word is a big part of putting on the full armor of God.
And, staying away from repetitive false teachers who misuse God’s word to corrupt the gospel is also important.
MeTheism and MeDooism. Self as co-redemptrix and works for salvation.
Johninnc.
Without the repetition and reinforcement of the truth of Grace I would be a reed in the wind again. I need to read these things often. It builds my confidence in the promise that by simply believing I am saved.
So Jack was right about that.
Thanks
Kate
fryingpan, thanks for the encouragement.
The late Jack Weaver once told me that “repitition is the Mucilage of theology.”
(For those not familiar with that term, “Mucilage”is a type of glue.)
Great new post, johninnc!
Please be encouraged that no matter how many times the enemy whispers in your ear that you’re just rehashing the same things over and over and preaching to the choir that those are all lies and that your skill at writing and willingness to defend the gospel is very much needed by the lost as well as the saved, not to mention the confused on either side of the divide.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Yes been pondering this in light of comments on expreacherman.com and recent challenges I have had with souls who refuse to believe Eternal life is a gift.
Would like to ask if any would like to comment based on what Johninc posted and in the light of verses in Rom 4:4-5
1. What is God’s Standard for righteousness?
2. What Standard would you use to keep the standard that got declares as the standard for righteousness?
if more than 1 standard please list at least 3 standards you are keeping to keep up with God’s Standard for righteousness.
then also let us know how you are doing with those standards you have listed?
Thank You
Curtis M