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Notes From A Retired Preacher 
John, yes. God loves all people, and desires that all be saved.
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 5:8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Thanks for your answer. I don’t mean to use this forum as a free resource for Bible questions but you guys have a good perspective and it is much appreciated. I have another question that is bothering me: is there any biblical evidence that God actually loves sinners who do not Believe in Christ. Other than his willingness to forgive me, before I Believed did the Lord actually love me?
John, I have seen a couple of interpretations of the sheep and goats judgment that are consistent with grace.
The sheep and goats judgment (Matthew 25:31-46) seems to deal with sheep (people who become believers after the rapture – tribulation believers) and goats (those who survive the great tribulation, but are not believers). It does not deal with church age believers, who appear at the judgment seat of Christ described in 1 Corinthians 3.
One interpretation that I have read is that the only believers to physically survive the great tribulation will be those believers who are faithful until the end of that period. Unfaithful believers (and many faithful martyrs as well) will die physically during the tribulation. Therefore, this specific passage deals with either faithful believers (who are the only believers who survive the tribulation) or non-believers.
Another interpretation is that the gratitude of tribulation believers toward the messengers who brought them the message of salvation will result in the tribulation believers providing material comfort and aid to the messengers.
I don’t know which, if either interpretation is exactly right (I am more inclined to believe the first one), but I do know this: the people in Matthew 25:37-39 express surprise that they have good works that are commended by Jesus. People who use this passage as a proof text that good works are required to receive eternal life or to prove that one has received eternal life, would not be surprised. If Jesus were to commend them for good works, they would say “duh”! Many will commend themselves to Jesus for their many wonderful works done in His name (see Matthew 7:22-23).
I’ve got another question, does Mathew 25 seem to indicate a works salvation? A lot of people use this verse to “prove” you must have good works to get into heaven. I would like a counter argument that is biblically sound.
Holly, it is sad that some people won’t consider the truth.
I feel the worst when people will not even consider Scripture that speaks directly to what they’re trying to preach. Hyperdispensationalists have been out a lot lately and insisting in two gospels.
I said to one, if I can prove that Paul preached the same as the Jewish churches in Judaea will you hear? (He didn’t).
He then stated Jesus never preached the cross, nor Peter, nor the other disciples. I started providing passages, so he sent me a private message instead of answering. Had to let him go.
Holly, yeah, in addition, many of them will proudly point to their credentials and testimonials from other prominent people.
A lot of people want to go with the self-proclaimed “experts,” but I am hopeful that they will embrace the truth.
Johninnc, and if you don’t agree with the ‘you must turn from your sins’ message, these same ‘men of the cloth’ will turn around to viciously tear you up.
I always wonder why their followers cannot see. But I just pray that they might escape from the wolf and come to believe the truth.
OK, thanks John, yes I prefer KJV too.
Hobbs, I prefer the KJV. I’m not sure that the NIV is explicitly trying to add works to the gospel, but I prefer the KJV wording.
Re: Revelation 19:8
The KJV says:
‘And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.’
The NIV has:
‘Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)’
Just seen the NIV version used to prove the invitation to the wedding feast in Matt 22 is about being clothed in the correct works, rather than simply being justified by faith in Christ.
Would this be another attempt to add works to the gospel?
John, I’ve seen some different interpretations of the group to whom Paul was speaking in Acts 19:2.
One is that they were Old Testament saints who had believed on the coming Messiah, but still did not know that it was Jesus.
Another is that they were disciples of John who had not yet become believers.
Agreed. Assurance based on my performance would indeed be a terrifying thing. Because I would have NONE.
Also I have a question, In acts 19:2 were the group Paul was speaking to saved? I know it’s not possible to understand every single word in the entire Bible perfectly but I am quite curious/confused if these were believers and had not received the Holy Spirit for some other reason.
Holly, yeah, I’ve run into this a lot. So many pastors teach this false “turn from sins for eternal life” mantra, that many people have a hard time looking past their “credentials” to learn the truth. Wanting to turn from sin has no bearing on whether or not one has eternal life. If it did, the gospel would not be good news, eternal life would not be a gift, and any assurance of eternal life would be based on one’s ongoing assessment of their desire to turn from sin.
John, it seems no matter where, people are blinded to why this teaching isn’t part of the gospel. They will ask, “don’t you want to turn from sin?” Or they might outright accuse that you just want to sin like the devil. Others are very certain repent means to turn from sin. Over and over they insist on the same error, and prove it by searching for and copying and pasting a list of verses that use the word ‘repent’.
Repent does not = turn from sin…
John, we had a couple with whom we were able to meet for a few years. More recently we have mostly conversed with others via ExPreacherman and john524promise.
Johninnc, thank you for that. Are you able to fellowship in person?
John, I have prayed for you, that God would guide you and lead you to others who are clear on the gospel.
Holly, I’m in alabama. Very difficult to find a church that is not either “repent of sins” or “ one cannot come to Christ unless he bears his cross”
The difference between salvation and discipleship is apparently lost in modern church. Please pray for me, that God will guide me and that I can at least find some believers to talk with.
Much love to you all I hope you are blessed.
John, I remember being tempted to find the ‘early church fathers’ or ‘early writings’ that held to a grace based position, and although I did find some, the truth of the matter is we have everything we need in His Word. And if we go through it asking who is spoken to, what about, etc., we will get clearer and clearer and clearer if we are studying with His approval as our desire.
Learning to even ask, ‘what kind of salvation’? ‘What kind of justification’? really helped. The justification in James 2 is not justification as in being declared righteous. How do we know? Well they were already identified as brethren, brothers, sisters, beloved brethren etc., but also Abraham was declared righteous when he believed God, not when he offered up Isaac. He was declared righteous before he was ever circumcised (before Isaac was ever born). So just knowing more of Scripture clears up confusion and trusting Him for the simplicity that is in Christ.
Praying you find somewhere to fellowship, but I’m with John, it’s hard. Where are you if you’d like to share the city?
“..Few there be that find it..”
I have to assume this is referring to the absolute scarcity of hearing the gospel without works.
Even “reformed” theology seems to also be works salvation. It is extremely daunting trying to find anyone telling the truth. It has made me feel like I was wrong because surely God would have more “true” churches in America or the world. But I stick to the scriptures.
John, thanks for the clarification. When I first became a believer, it was really hard for me to come to grips with the observation that much/most of professing Christendom was undermining the gospel. As the late Jack Weaver used to say, “the woods is full of em.”
Also to clarify, I ABSOLUTELY agree with the free grace view. Without it I know for sure I would burn in hell. I have never been and never could be faithful enough to God to earn anything towards salvation. I am Humbly in need of his Mercy and thank God for Christ paying for my sins.
John, I know the gospel has been under attack from the get go. As to what twists and turns it’s taken along the way, it’s hard to say. I don’t have much trust in what is taught as “church history.” All I know is the Bible clearly teaches eternal life by grace through faith, eternal security, and assurance based on God’s promise alone.
Do you know the history of free grace? I ask that to say, am I just reading this into the scriptures or was this the original interpretation that people have slowly steered away from?
I know that since even after Christ died that people have been almost immediately adding works to the gospel (like Cephas got entangled in Galatians).
I just wonder if In the early days the way the gospel was preached and the scriptures understood would be considered “free grace”.
John, if you were to contact the church about their statement, they aren’t likely to change it in any meaningful way.
I know what you mean about wondering how so many get it wrong. It does seem daunting. The Lord allows this because we have free will.
I will absolutely steer clear.
I am honestly confused on what to do, do you think I should contact the church and ask them about their statement?
I also sometimes fear as to why we who believe this way, are in such a minority. Is everyone else just simply not interpreting the scriptures correctly? Why would the Lord allow practically every modern church to be so barren of the Gospel?
John, like you, I would steer clear of a church that had that statement.
As far as finding a church goes, it can be exceedingly difficult to find a church that is clear on the gospel. While finding a good local church is a blessing, that may not be a viable option. Meeting with small groups of other like-minded believers at homes, through media, or even online forums may be the best alternative.
How do I find a church that preaches the clear and original Gospel??? I was trapped by Lordship salvation and have been shown how evil it was! I cannot go back to a church with this statement about the gospel: The proper response to the gospel is faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, a faith that is naturally accompanied by repentance from sin. Biblical repentance is characterized by a changed life, and saving faith is evidenced by kingdom service or works. While neither repentance nor works save, unless a person is willing to deny himself, pick up his cross and follow Christ, he cannot become His disciple.
“This response to the gospel is rooted and grounded in the free and unconditional election of God for His own pleasure and glory. This gospel of grace is to be sincerely preached to all men in all nations.“