By johninnc
1 Timothy 2:4-6: [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; [6] Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
I did an internet search on the word “Christian” today, just out of curiosity, to see how many references it would garner. The number was 1.43 billion.
I have spent a good bit of time reading content at internet sites that claim to be teaching Christian doctrine, and have found very few that do not contain some form of corruption of the gospel message.
Among the more common forms of corruption are sites that teach Lordship “salvation” (the false idea that good works must accompany faith in Christ in order for one to receive, maintain, or indicate that he has received eternal life). For a more complete explanation of the error of Lordship “salvation,” please see link below:
In any event, if you have been deceived by Lordship “salvation,” and have been drawn to, or even stumbled across the Expreacherman website, we are glad you have found us.
I believe that you may be here for one, or more, of the following reasons, each of which can be manifested in glorifying God.
- You are here because you have never believed in Jesus as Savior, and you need to hear, or read, the gospel message in its clarity, unhindered by any contradictions, nor masked by any of the false language or concepts that have become pervasive in presentations purporting to be the gospel.
You may be have spent a lifetime in church activities, lived a good life, and so on, but still deep down wonder if you have done enough.
Or, you may have avoided church like the plague, because you never really felt like you fit in. Or, maybe you have tried to engage in religion sporadically, whenever you felt lost.
If any of these scenarios strikes close to home, I invite you to read the attached link. Ask questions if there’s something you still don’t understand.
The Gospel: //www.cleargospel.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/English/English-Display-Pkg-2014.pdf
- You are here because, while you have believed in Jesus as Savior, you have been exposed to false teaching that has served to undermine your assurance, Christian growth, and power for Christian living.
Perhaps you have never really gotten grounded in your faith, because you either unwittingly, or even purposefully, tolerated false teaching. Perhaps that tolerance for false doctrine has led to your accepting, embracing, or even teaching it. But, deep down, you know something is not right.
If this sounds you, we have some suggestions:
- Go on a spiritual “diet.” Stop consuming false doctrine. Stop looking for man’s consensus. See article below for further discussion:
Stop following the “menyouscript.”
- Read God’s word. We would advise anyone to consider interpretation of scripture in light of the following three clear tenets. If someone’s interpretation of scripture renders an answer of “NO” to any of the following questions, it cannot be true:
- Is it consistent with eternal life by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone?
- Is it consistent with eternal security?
- Is it consistent with assurance of eternal life, based on God’s promises alone (i.e., it is not internally-focused on changes in attitudes, behavior, etc.)?
Again, ask questions if there is something you don’t understand.
- You are here because you would like to equip yourself to oppose false doctrine that undermines the gospel message. If so, a good starting point may be found in the link below:
- You are here to oppose the message of grace, to contradict our clear teaching of the gospel, to teach doctrine that undermines the gospel, and otherwise “straighten us out.”
If this describes you, we will answer your false doctrine with scripture, in its proper context, and try to persuade you that you are in error. We will allow you to make your claims, and we will answer them. But, we will not engage in a protracted debate, and we will not allow you to have the last word. We will lay out, and make stark, whatever error you are teaching, and contrast it with the truth.
We will protect our flock from you. And, we will pray for you.
We will pray that if you have never believed in Jesus as Savior, that you would hear and understand the gospel, and that if you do know Jesus as Savior, that you would have the wisdom, discernment, and humility to turn from the false doctrine that you are teaching, and that you would begin teaching the truth.
For those of us who are familiar with Expreacherman, I would repeat the following sentiment from earlier this year:
I join you in asking God to bless this ministry. I pray that those who come here who know Jesus as Savior will seek to honor God with their posts, that we will be faithful to Him and His word, that we will comfort and encourage one another, that we will be bold in proclaiming and defending the gospel, that we will be gentle and wise, that we won’t become confused with the wisdom of men, and that we will not allow our comments to become sidetracked with unimportant things.
Also, I pray that those who come here who are seeking truth, and do not know Jesus as Savior, would hear/read and understand the gospel message.
Happy New Year everyone!
Notes From A Retired Preacher 
Please note:
We have received comments of late that attempt to draw this site into arguments ongoing at other sites.
That is not the purpose of this ministry. We consider such comments a distraction and will not entertain them.
Johninnc
I do pray for this ministry every day. I am well aware of the attacks against it, as I have on my page. Not as frequently as yours, but we also deal with it in the groups on FB. Some people don’t understand as they may only see surface comments and don’t see the comments we don’t post which can get quite nasty or manipulative or both. Anyways, I am knowing that you need prayer and this ministry in general, for the enemy definitely is prowling about, and we need to have our armor on. Take heart, we don’t have a clue what is being accomplished, but we do what we do for Him, and so that the truth will remain.
I’ve thought about this article quite a bit lately, particularly number 4.
Sometimes it seems like there is a whole cottage industry out there devoted to contradicting this oasis of grace.
Please continue to pray for this ministry.
Phil, you and I agree. There is nothing the verse twisters and verse pickers can do to change the truth, but they are deceived and deceivers.
John , these verse twisters and verse pickers cannot argue with the completed saving work of the gospel of our salvation. That ALL our sins, cradle to grave, have already been taken away at the cross, and Christ has been raised by God from the dead; that means the believer has been raised with Christ. Eternal salvation has already been accomplished for the believer–it’s a done deal. So, all their verses taken out of context by these legalist verse twisters,, don’t measure up the the gospel of our salvation. (1 Cor 15:1-19; Eph 1:13,14; Eph 2;1-10; Col 2:9-13) Yes, believers are to live righteously and do good works NOT to attain eternal life, but in gratitude for Christ’s gift of eternal life for us. (Rom 6;23; Col 3;1-6)
Johninnc – True. No matter what, they’ll find some verse to twist and say, “See, this verse says you can lose your salvation!” Or “This verse says you must persevere to the end!” Or “This verse says you must have works as evidence!” And so on.
Jason, if that wasn’t there, they would run to something else.
For pathetic excuse not to believe God and to call Him a liar, they run to the parable of the vine and the branches. They have ears and do not hear.
Holly – Indeed. They act like the Bible has magic words and definitions. But whether it is in the Bible, or anywhere else, believe means to be persuaded that something is true (or trust) and does NOT mean obey, surrender, follow Christ and definitely does NOT mean keep the law. The law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12), so believe CANNOT include works.
John — me too… that’s why they go beyond and try to qualify the simple word/understanding of belief. They make it hard to believe like MacArthur. Or they use the A.W. Pink explanation of ‘mental assent’ or head change making a heart change, blah blah, and they again corrupt the simplicity that is in Christ.
John 6:47 I agree that it is the one book (not the only one), but that was specifically written to tell people how to be saved eternally. I am still stumped at how people would disagree, but hyperdispensationalism as well as Calvinism doesn’t like the book of John (they also leave out Hebrew, James, 1-3 John and Revelation as being for the church).
I was so thankful when I just started doing a repent word study through the Scriptures and started adding ‘turn from sin’ in place of repent and of course God did not turn from sin. And then I found turning from sin was a work. I agree that one must know that Jesus died for our sin, and rose again from the dead. This is the story of Christ and Him crucified. People go too far, and instead of trusting the Word go to extremes or they leave things out and argue for that. As for me, I just want to share clearly who Christ is, and what He did for them, so that they may know He is the Savior and no one else.
Holly, I have seen lots of people try to explain away “believe” in scripture, including in John 8:30-31, John 8:42, and Luke 8:13.
hollysgarcia – Exactly! The one book in the Bible that is specifically written to tell people how to be saved leaves out one of the Lordshippers favorite words: repent. Of course repent = change of mind and not turn from sin, as God repented in the Bible more times than man did.
John 6:47 – yes I do, and what I’m noticing too is with hyperdispensationalism they are saying that John is not evangelical in nature, and say all the believing has nothing to do with eternal life because it’s not the same message as Paul (each one has a different theory on that from several sides of the aisle).
One speaking against GES says this: “The belief of which this verse speaks, as well as many of the occurrences of the word “believe” in the Gospel of John, is a persuasion concerning the identify of Christ; in other words, a persuasion that He is who He claims Himself to be. The syntax of the above verse demands this understanding. “That you might believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God” is a persuasion of His Messianic credentials and in no way suggests a faith in Jesus as the grantor of everlasting life as GES suggests.”
Although I have issues with what some of GES teaches, I also have issues with this. It’s not just a persuasion of His Messianic Credentials but a revealing and a testimony of who Christ is and what He came to do and what He did. This same person says it’s not the same gospel seen in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, yet I see Jesus crucified for our sins on the cross, risen again, seen by many as the Scriptures said. How is that not the same?
But this is what happens in hyperdivision and may I not mishandle His Scripture in any way, it really troubles me. John is clear, and a blessing, and a reminder of not only who Christ is, but as Messiah, He is our Savior. And I think every aspect of that including the indwelling/baptism of the Holy Spirit is seen in John.
hollysgarcia – Notice how the false teachers avoid the book of John because it doesn’t have the word repent in it? The only time they go to John is to twist John 15 and John 14:15 (which are disciplship verses, NOT salvation verses).
John 6:47 – I wish people would take Scripture in context, and do just what you did, repeat succinctly what it says. Instead, they seem to ignore clear Scripture and say ‘I think’ or ‘I believe’ as if that is now the gospel truth. Good to see you again 🙂
John 6:47, its good to hear from you again.
It is amazing how many people get this wrong.
Amen! So many churches are teaching a false gospel that the lost man already believes pretty much. Even though the Lordshippers have millions of ways to say salvation is by works without using the word “works”, they still think that you have to be a good person and live a good life to go to Heaven
Faith + Works = Works
Faith + Nothing = Salvation
Faith + Works = Damnation
So many people are trying to find a “happy medium” between grace and works. News flash, THAT DOESN’T EXIST! It is IMPOSSIBLE to trust Christ AND trust yourself. Grace and Works are mutually exclusive (Romans 11:6). It’s like oil and water. THEY DON’T MIX! You CANNOT help Jesus save you. He saves you BY HIMSELF. None of your works contribute one iota to salvation. Consider Romans 4:14-16.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
1. We see that if salvation is by works, faith is void and the promise of God is of none effect. Think about it. “He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” If it’s by the law (and turn from sin = keep the law), then faith is useless and that promise is null and void.
2. The law does NOT promise you salvation or eternal life. The law promises you wrath. Galatians 3:10 states,
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
You see, if you add one work to Christ’s finished work on the cross, it’s 100% all of works. The law is a packaged deal. You don’t get to chop parts out and say “Well I do some sins over here but I keep all these other laws.”
3. Because of the IMPOSSIBILITY of salvation by works, God made it 100% of grace. God has not and will not save anybody who is trying to save themselves. The ONLY people that are saved are those who trust in the finished work of the cross ALONE.
Andrew Farley has quite a bit I take issue with. Oddly as a supposed ‘free-gracer’, he sides with the Load-shippers on the necessity of Good works proving faith, his James 2 exposition is awful.
Hope Bible Institute is a different subject. Their red flag is the strange jargon coming from a “great man”.
Jason, it’s interesting that they have that view of head faith/heart faith.
Their previously mentioned guest, Andrew Farley, draws a distinction.
I’m a bit surprised that no further comments are coming from Socal and Jon about Grace roots, lol.
Yesterday, I came across the channel of Hope Bible Institute in California. This seminary posts free lectures, which seems to be a first. Universities have already been doing this for at least the last six years, as evidenced from the physics lectures that I have watched.
I watched two lectures from Hope’s channel, on Lordship vs Grace, and they made the astute point against heart vs head faith. That was so encouraging. But as I browsed the catolog, I saw courses called, “Rebound” and “Reversionism”. When I watched the first lecture on Reversionism, I heard about the “edification complex of the soul”. I don’t believe that the soul has parts, lol. There are definitely some bones to pick.
Jason, yeah. His version of Ephesians 2:9: Not of work (singular), lest any man should boast.
During his second day as a guest, Farley actually discussed the Naked Gospel. He got to his one work heresy, and they did not bat an eye. I posted the link to our article in the comments. This is a consequence of one nature theology, in action.
Jason, that’s good to know. I had never heard of Grace Roots, but I think I can do without them.
I have some bad news about Grace Roots. In 2015, they had as a guest Andrew Farley. They even mentioned the Naked Gospel. I found this out by checking out the channel. Why am I usually the one who finds the red flags?
The Bible seems the best place to stick with and we have a blessing in being able to see a lot of the original text and contrast with other usages. Too many prefer to have certain teachers tell them how to think, what to believe, and if people don’t agree with them on certain things there is derision. I just am not interested in being around it. Sorry to hear Shane is KJVO vs. just preferred and in that type of thinking.
I have found ProclaimHisWord annoying, lately 😦
He did not use the exact word but it was off putting.
Jason, yeah, it’s more than a little off putting to be told we’re pathetic.
Shane Robinson’s channel is quite sound, but he has an annoying KJV only streak. He argues that originalists are pathetic because they concede that they have no Bible. Even our beloved Arnold won’t go that far. Even the Majority Texts have their variations.
lukes, you are right – many translations change the meaning of that verse completely.
Thanks everyone for the encouraging comments. Yes the mystery of the gospel that sin is never imputed to the believer and the new nature cannot sin is lost on many people but scripture is clear
1John5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin
It seems there are only 2 options
1. Either no one is born of God because all sin
2.Paul is talking about the believers spirit nature which does not sin
This is truth is made much more obscure by the LS salvation crowd. in the Esv and other translations It says “whoever is born of God does not make a practice of sinning” a completely different and false sentiment.
Phil, great comment.
They typically try to ignore the fact;
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (poieo) might have been better rendered ‘practice’ and it is in the present tense no matter how people like John MacArthur try to pretend this is Paul speaking of his past.
But it can’t possibly be, without knowing any Greek, anyone can just look at the next verse also.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
If it isn’t him doing the wrong (the new man) but the sin that is still in Paul, then this is an obvious fact (as I definitely know you know) 🙂
And the rest is clear:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Luke, I read your testimony of shedding the bondage of LS. It sounds like what many of us here have been through before. Glad you have found this oasis of grace! I hope you have read the 36 Amazing Things God has done for the believer in this site.
The believer is a new creation with a new nature, but he is still vulnerable to his old sin nature that is from before he was saved. Another way to look at it is we have been made a new man in Christ, but there is the old man, the Adam or sin man, that is still able to surface, yet this cannot cancel our salvation.
Christ has redeemed us and given the permanent gift of eternal salvation. We can’t improve on this gift, or shine it up, or do good works, and forsaking of our sins to maintain it in order to keep our salvation. Salvation, forgiveness, eternal life are all the work of Christ.
These LS teachers want you to think that you can’t simply change your mind and believe the gospel of your salvation, they also are saying you have to change your way of living your life to make your salvation real.
But here is what I say: Christ died for my sins, was buried, and rose from the dead for me. That means i died with him and I was raised with him. Since I have been raised my redemption is complete….So all this worry and anxiety that these LS’rs can bring up is trumped by completed finished gospel of salvation. (Rom 6:1-10; Gal 2:20; Col 2:9,10: Col 3:1-4)
Jon, I have listened to several of their podcasts and really, the two nature thing was the only issue worth even a comment. In the end it’s a semantic issue between us and them, because they haven’t heard our take on it before. I do not feel that it is a significant enough of a stopping point to not share their channel with people who are hurting from the yoke of bondage that is placed upon them by the majority of religious institutions out there. We can agree to disagree on this one issue because they in no way encourage fruit inspection.
Luke, just sitting next to my husband in cardiac icu as my husband sleeps just reading. I can relate and am so thankful to have been set free by continuing in His Word. Encouraged to read.
socalexile(Dan) I didn’t do an extensive search on the grace roots channel or anything like that. I literally stumbled onto that 2 natures video almost right away and a red flag went up for me from their description. I also noticed you had a lengthy discussion with them in the comments but it didn’t seem to resolve anything. I am not an authority on anything and people are free to explore whatever channels they want to. For myself it is an important subject and the explanations from Yankee and Tom Cucuzza have helped me to understand the Bible better. I feel like their video would probably just confuse the issue for me.
Another one to mark and avoid is Dave McKay, who I believe posts videos as Voice in the Desert. His followers try to “obey the teachings of Jesus” by “selling all they have”, and they do it in order to be saved. Like many other LS groups, they think that OSAS amounts to saying a prayer. They “warn” that OSAS will be used in the last days as an excuse to take the Mark.
lukes, welcome and thanks for sharing your testimony.
I am thankful that you have found your way free from the bondage of LS and I have prayed that you would continue to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus.
Hi guys my names Luke, a believer in Christ from the UK. I have been following this website for a while ,reading but never actually commenting myself on the posts. on reflection i think its time i said hi and introduced myself .
I’ve been a believer in Christ for over 10 years now. I grew up in a non Christian family and first came across the gospel message online when i was around 18 years old . It was at that time i first understood Christ loving me and dying for me and the free gift of salvation was to be accepted by a simple faith and could not be worked for or earned. I trusted christ alone to save me and I began attending church . This was a time in my life when i was profoundly joyful and thankful , rejoicing in the free gift of eternal life .
A few years later i came across people who taught Lordship salvation. Not been rooted and grounded in the faith I fell for it hook line and sinker . I began telling people they must turn from sin to be saved . I judged others harshly and was a first class fruit inspector, but not nearly as harshly as i judged myself. Under the loadship system i lost all joy and assurance of salvation and was utterly consumed by misery and fear. I would wake up and weep .i remember praying to God at that time and asking him why he had created me to taste joy and happiness only to be proved a false convert later on . Reading the bible through the lordship lense was a horrible and scary way to live
Sometimes i would feel good about myself thinking i was showing “real fruit” and a “genuine repentance”. I preached regular in the open air begging others to turn from there sin to be saved when all along i knew i wasn’t doing it myself . I saw a womans face utterly crushed as i shared this false gospel message with her. Deep down i knew something had gone profoundly wrong in my Christian life. Jesus had said you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. But this teaching had brought nothing but bondage and misery
This frame of mind brought about by false teaching went on for a number of years. Under the lordship system i just never knew what was good enough or what was enough fruit . i asked my elders but they didn’t know either.
One day when i was questioning the sincerity of my own “repentance” i stumbled across an article by Eli Bradley entitled ” the great meaning of metanoia” It explained and articulated what i had known deep down all along. Salvation really was a gift which couldn’t be earned . When the bible told me to repent it was talking about a simple change of mind. Not trusting in myself but in him. Ironically the lordship salvationist with all there talk of repentance had pushed me far far away from the simplicity of the gospel and the simple call to change my mind and trust him
The path became clear once more. Not that i found anything new, but that same old gospel was still there .The Lord Jesus really was still good and it was fully safe to trust in him alone. Since then i have sought to be a bearean as it where and not be again entangled by a yoke of slavery . To that end this site has been a great help
I have found here what jack intended , an oasis of grace. I still struggle daily with the sinful nature and constantly need to be renewing the mind and not give the devil a foothold but by Gods grace i am a much more joyful believer then i was before : )
I still have lots to learn and lots to unlearn and I’m sure having fellowship here will be helpful to that end.
Hope this is of encouragement for some. You never know the power of a simple Internet article to change lives of those who are struggling. Keep sharing the good news of His grace
With love in Christ Luke
Oh I see where I’m getting confused, Drysdale presumably goes the ‘one nature’ route. I see He’s had training from Bethel and they teach that as a believer ‘everything about you loves God, even your flesh loves God’. Ok, I won’t mention him here anymore.
So in that passage John is talking about the new nature in a believer, that it cannot sin, not that if you sin you aren’t really saved. Presumably Phil Drysdale doesn’t see it that way? But I suppose he’d make a distinction between a momentary lapse and ‘living in it’. They always seem determined to put boundaries on God’s grace. And this from a supposed ‘Grace’ teacher too.
The technical term is “Spurgeonianity,” aka “LS.”
It’s amazing, how does grace cover all sin, but unless there’s a change away from sin, there is no grace? I don’t know whether to call it ‘begging the question’, or a ‘self-refuting argument’. What’s the technical term for that?
SoCal, oh dear!
Phil Drysdale sounds like a good M&A candidate (mark and avoid).
Disregard Phil Drysdale, he’s firmly in the fruit inspection camp. He writes that someone who doesn’t have a change in lifestyle doesn’t have grace.
“Grace does cover all sin. The problem is you need to be under grace to experience that. The very fact that these people haven’t seen a turn around in their lives tells us that they are not under grace because we all know that it is not our own efforts that bring any lasting change or righteousness but rather Jesus’ effort on the cross. As John says – if you are living with sin in your life you have neither seen nor heard the Father, you are still a son of the devil (1 John 3:4-10)”
On the subject of grace preachers, does anyone have an opinion on Phil Drysdale?
Hobbs, they have a little different argument for their viewpoint that seems to stem from them hearing about the Doctrine of the Two Natures from a different source than say, Ralph Yankee Arnold. They argue that it comes from a bad translation of the Greek word “sarx” in the NIV. They haven’t heard of the teaching from RYA until I brought it up. Ultimately it’s a semantic issue and I hope they’re rethinking it.
The point about fruit inspection is one that really doesn’t apply to GR, because they thoroughly preach rest in Christ, and that since the Law has been taken away, there is no sin imputed to us; and the Law only increased sin, whereas as a believer grows in grace, a lot of those things fall off –
although we never judge our or another’s salvation by it, as salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. Ultimately their angle is “freedom from religion and the Law, and rest in Christ”
Think this teaching stems from the idea that since Adam and Eve didn’t have a sin nature in the Garden of Eden, how then were they able to sin? Supposedly proving that all one needs to sin is temptation and a free will; no sin nature required. That, although it’s not in a believer’s nature to sin anymore, he can still succumb to the occasional temptation. As Jason points out, this can lead to fruit inspection. A momentary lapse is ok but anything more prolonged and your confession of faith is in question.
Hollysgarcia, I think it’s wise to be cautious, but we can’t be dogmatic on the peripherals. Make up your own mind on the channel, but they are firmly grace believers that preach rest in Christ.
(BTW this is Dan S., had some account issues earlier).
Jon, thank you for the warning, I was wondering who the channel was. Many ‘Grace’ named channels ‘seem’ to be o.k., but I’m finding more and more these days the need to proceed with caution, and always check first. Thanks again.
Lise, we have had extensive discussion of this question. No one has to confess sins to receive eternal life, as that would be inconsistent with salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
There are various opinions from our commenters, which I have summarized below.
Please note that I do not want to re-open the debate, as we have already covered it extensively.
Please see extensive excerpt from previous summary:
Most of our commenters believe that 1 John 1:9 instructs believers to continually confess their sins to stay in fellowship with God. As such, the confession of sin would be an acknowledgment that we had allowed our flesh to manifest itself.
There are several interpretations of 1 John 1:9 that I have come across that are consistent with grace, including:
1. It is written to believers, and is a reference to their acknowledgement, in having come to Christ for eternal life, that they were sinners in need of a Savior. It does not relate to needing to confess sins on an ongoing basis to maintain fellowship.
2. It is written to believers, and refers to confessing sin as a necessity for maintaining fellowship, or at least close fellowship, with Christ.
3. It is written to nonbelievers who do not understand that they are sinners, in need of a Savior. If they are going to come to Christ for eternal life, they will have to come to the realization that they are sinners, in need of a Savior.
4. It is written to both nonbelievers and believers. For nonbelievers, it is a call for acknowledgement that they are sinners in need of a Savior. For believers, it is either a call for the ongoing confession of sins or a continued acknowledgment that they have not reached a state of sinless perfection.
We have had extensive discussion of this topic at Expreacherman, and our commenters have registered their views as to their interpretations of 1 John 1:9, together with their reasons for coming to those interpretations.
I do not want to start that discussion afresh.
For a good overview of that discussion, start with the first link and finish with the last link below:
https://expreacherman.com/2014/06/01/some-lordship-salvationists-pet-passages-explained/#comment-66678
Jon, on the Grace Roots and the two nature thing, I have commented on their video to bring it to their attention what is actually being said about it, I get the impression that they’re confusing “identity” with “the source of the flesh vs. the spirit” which is what we mean when we talk about the two natures. We and Grace Roots agree that our new identity is in Christ and by that identity we are made sinless and perfect. What they confused is that “nature” isn’t “identity” when we talk about it – that when we say “nature”, we’re talking about the root source of the flesh (Adam and sin) vs. the Spirit (Jesus and life).
I’m going to disagree on that point with them and chalk it up to the fact that we’re all limited people. Otherwise they are very spot-on and very good with the Gospel.
Please forgive me if this question is misplaced, but I couldn’t find a thread dedicated to it.
Question: Is it necessary for believers to confess their sins (after they have been saved)? My view has been that if all has already been forgiven, then what is the point?
Thank you! 🙂
Lise
To Dan i also listen to growing in grace and i find them to very good on a clear gospel.I read their book clash of the covenants and i would say it was one of the best out there.ive read secure forever which is also very good.I dont think anyone on this blog would have any major problem with what they talk about.They have a few differences but nothing that would cause me not to recommend them.I always enjoy the comments on this blog as ive learned a lot from everyone here.
The reason why they are confusing is that it is not of the Spirit, but their flesh. They lie against the truth. Some hear them and go home satisfied they’ve had their daily bread somehow. They figure they’ve been fed on Sunday by the people like MacArthur who even name their ministry ‘Grace to you’ when they have no idea what God’s grace is about. They lie against the truth. And their followers are blindly following. We can only speak the truth in love, boldly, be sure we are in the Word ourselves, and stay away from those who teach it once we know. Time is short, may we continue to share the gospel of grace with those who will hear.
Jon, I understood. I just wanted to let others see our position on that issue.
John, I know exactly what section 9 of the SOF says. I read it before I posted. I just wanted to WARN people about that youtube channel. Was this not clear?
Jason, agree.
Paul appealed to the Galatians to walk in the Spirit, so they would not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Logically, belief in one nature leads to fruit inspection and is a contributing reason why people teach it.
Jon, our SOF says that a child of God has both a flesh nature and a Spirit nature and that the Spiritual Man does not commit any sin.
See section 9 of link below:
I would just like to give a word of caution about the Grace Roots youtube channel. They seem to teach against a believer having two natures: “Many Christians have been taught they are living with two natures; one that is holy and righteous, and another that is sinful. At the very least, this is misleading and at the most it’s just plain erroneous. One who has come to belief in Christ, born in the newness of life and given a new heart, cannot also have a nature of evil dwelling within the spirit of the inner man.” Partial quote from the video titled Fake News: Believers Still Have a Sinful Nature (Growing in Grace #588) This is not compatible with the Statement of Faith of Expreacherman.
I myself forgot to mention Mark S who has posted here, and his channel is ProclaimHisWord. I cringe when he mentions persecuted Christians, because that world is just as full of false gospels as ours, and I don’t know how much of it is real Christians dying for the real gospel. Wurmbrand, Nee, Lee and Eastern Lightning come to mind.
I like Renee very much, and I worry about the other traps that she has been exposed to, such as GES and Nephilim hysteria.
jasonc65, also check out Renee Roland’s channel on YouTube. Very grace oriented and very much outspoken against LS and anyone that disrupts resting in Christ.
One of the good guys is the “Growing in Grace” podcast that is posted on the YouTube channel “Grace Roots”.
Jason, agree. It is very confusing.
Here is a confusing statement from none other than Roger Williams:
“had also in mine eye, that this exercise might occasion some Soul Consideration in many. I told them that we had a dolefull Alarum and instruction lately, we were taught what Salvation and saving was, in the late death and drowning of a person so known to us (and all N. England) Nicholas Davis. I told them our case, and the case of all mankind is his (in Spirituall and Soul matters) Oh a world for an Oar, a Rope, a Plank. Only it must be to all of us our work, to try whether our Saviour our Salvation be reall, and not failing in so great a Straight”
My comment: I cannot make out the language, with its long and confusing sentences, which never seem to be completed yet ramble on and on. As a point of reference, the King James Bible was written 61 years earlier and yet is far clearer than this mess. The illustration of the drowning man is left woefully undeveloped and unenlightening. If this is how he defines salvation, it cannot lead me to salvation but only to looking within and inspecting fruit, just as with the Quakers that he is debating.
Jason, as you have observed, people routinely contradict purported “grace” beliefs.
An article against Luther clearly contrasts baptismal regeneration with the gospel. Throughout the reading of it, I am drawn out of medieval darkness into the simplicity of Christ, until the very last sentence, with which he nullifies everything: “If faith is real in the heart, then the expectation of Scripture is that believer’s baptism (obedience/good works/fruit) will follow!”. Isn’t that precisely Luther’s point?
Why do these people keep doing this? Writing books books books against error and then nullifying it in one careless, callous or clueless statement. I used to put up with it. Then I came here.
Another person I can’t stand is John Ankerberg. I used to mark and avoid him for a very different reason, a tangential issue, a disputable matter. But now I am uncomfortable with him over the nonnegatiable issue of getting the gospel wrong. He is a loadshipper of the “lord and savior” variety. Also, say a prayer and open your life are said. Annoying.
Jason, there are a lot of people who believe in eternal security, but pair it with LS/Calvinism.
A lot of times when you see eternal security paired with “truly saved” or “true Christian” you will find LS/Calvinism close behind.
There is another reason I am here. Confusion. Everywhere else I go, even if there isn’t loadship, there is confusion. Even when the sof is accurate, something inaccurate will be said later. Even if the sof and gp are both accurate, inaccuracy will show up in an article somewhere.
In order to be comfortable, I must hear a straight answer about loadship. If I do not, then inevitably a loadship statement will be said later.
These are the only sites and ministries I feel comfortable with
Expreacherman
RedeemingMoments
JimF’s blog
Bibleline
Tom Cucuzza
Two of Holly’s facebook groups
Clear Gospel
JB Hixson
There is one group that I no longer trust.
And they all have one thing in common: they expose loadship for what it is.
A related issue is repentance. Every man’s definition of repent is turn from sin, unless they explicitly say otherwise. That has been my universal observation. Whenever I see “repent and believe”, I will later discover that by repent they meant turn from sin. David Cloud’s gp is a case in point. The second half of the presentation repeats the first half, and the whole thing is long and boring. The first half seems accurate, and the second half messes up. Someone could get saved reading part way, get bored, and never reach the part where he says they must repent of sin.
Whenever a site says saved by grace and adds nothing to it, they always add to it later. Yet the very few sites that say saved by grace and add “lordship is wrong”, they are usually ok. Unless they fall into some other trap. I wonder why. I used to be comfortable with anybody who taught eternal security, but not anymore.
Another issue is quoting the menyouscript. Even GES can be smoked out by looking for the Spurgeon quotes.
Dori, it is good to hear from you again!
Tara, happy new year to you. It is always good to hear from you, and we are thankful that you find the site to be a blessing.
Tara and Dori, glad you are here and hope you will both stick around.
Yes, the good news, the gospel is so simple. Christ has done it all for us at Calvary. We believe the good news of our salvation and receive eternal salvation. Yet, as you say, the world had corrupted it.
Tara and Dori, I am praying too, for this ministry, for pastor Tom Cucuzza and others who are remaining faithful to the gospel and will suffer spiritual attack in it. Praying that we keep our eyes on Him, our mind stayed on Him, and keep answering the enemy with the Word of God, allowing it’s power to work.
Thankful for the fellowship and prayers of the saints.
I cannot express in words the thankfulness I have to God for this site!! I join you in your prayer Johninnc, that the Lord will continue to use it to save the lost & to break the chains of the leaven of the enemies works based lies!! I read your & hollysgarcia’s comments (and others) for the encouragement and edification that I cannot find anywhere in fellowship where I live!! God bless you all brethren!! Happy New Year!
“I join you in asking God to bless this ministry. I pray that those who come here who know Jesus as Savior will seek to honor God with their posts, that we will be faithful to Him and His word, that we will comfort and encourage one another, that we will be bold in proclaiming and defending the gospel, that we will be gentle and wise, that we won’t become confused with the wisdom of men, and that we will not allow our comments to become sidetracked with unimportant things.
Also, I pray that those who come here who are seeking truth, and do not know Jesus as Savior, would hear/read and understand the gospel message.”
AMEN!
And those were Job’s family members. Marking and avoiding family is so difficult.
Thank you for this John and the outline you have given here before has been helpful to many in reading the Word or problematic passages in context.
People need encouraged to approach the Scriptures with His approval as their goal, and not mans. So many parrot what these loadship teachers continue to claim the Word says.
So thankful He helped me as I started to cooperate to study with the right motives and leave men’s ‘helpful’ books behind. What dung. What garbage they can plant in people’s minds. And it is dangerous and even deadly to many.
I was thinking on the famous people in the Bible yesterday. And how even the wisest man at the time, Solomon, fell into apostasy. The most righteous man at the time Job fell into justifying himself to his friends (instead of justifying God) because he allowed them to condemn him subtly. But their words weren’t right and he listened to them. I think that was his first mistake.
We need to mark and avoid those who don’t speak right so that we don’t become ensnared by their double speak and deceitful handling of God’s Word. Thankful for His Word that can help exercise our senses to discern between good and evil (Heb 5:12-14).
Brad, I’m so thankful you did find this site EARLY and can say “Reading the Bible has very quickly become my favourite activity.” After having a very hard struggle myself, I find my only real encouragement comes from the Scriptures! I can enjoy listening to other sound believers, but nothing “gets me” like His Word.
jasonc65, Wow! I am experiencing something similar to what you describe. I have a different take in that I feel we have to pass through the fog of error, as it were, in our earthly experience. There is error, but along the way there are also people that God loves and has “perfect patience” towards in hopes of their salvation and, if believers, their maturity.
WH Auden wrote a poem, LUTHER, and whatever the “Reformation” meant in reality, I think the spark of it is in this stanza:
The fuse of Judgement spluttered in his head:
“Lord, smoke these honeyed insects from their hives.
All Works, Great Men, Societies are bad.
The Just shall live by Faith…” he cried in dread.
I think this agrees with Paul’s letter to the Romans, which caused the spark (IIRC).
Jason, thanks for the warning.
I just now caught sensationalist Tom Friess, of Inquisition Update, teaching repent of sin for salvation. I am not surprised. He said that Jesus is treated like a Catholic priest, effectively calling grace cheap like Bonhoeffer. Among his other strange teachings is: the rapture will be canceled. Marking and avoiding is better than protesting.
Even before I was focusing too much on false doctrines, if we just stick to what the Word actually says the false doctrines naturally come tumbling down anyways.
Brad, so many want to remove our focus from the simplicity of Christ. You are right. Marking and avoiding them is extremely important.
Marking and avoiding is so important.
I love just focusing on the simplicity of Christ and disregarding everything else (for salvation). It makes life far more enjoyable and peaceful. I am very thankful that I found this website so early into my salvation.
Reading the Bible has very quickly become my favourite activity.
Happy new year everyone.
Jason, much of churchianity is better marked and avoided, as you have found.
I have spent much of my later life getting affiliated with some group and drifiting away, having desires to go back and never fulfilling them, not helped by insomnia and messed up day-night cycles, and waking up one day to realize that I have been avoiding church like the plague. I had been embracing and then marking and avoiding one group after another: the Voice of the Martyrs, the Worldwide Church of God, charismatics, NBC-affiliated Baptists, Hanegraaff, Calvinism and LS. Hero after hero fell. Things that I had tacitly embraced were refuted: the church fathers, what it means to be a Baptist, Protestantism, lists of “essentials” that did not include the gospel, CS Lewis, evangelicalism, fundamentalism, Luther, and other great ideas, movements and men. Things that I tolerated were to be marked and avoided. Google searches turned up a plethora of Catholic websites, defending Tradition and telling me in Latin that there is no salvation outside the Church and at the same time, with condescension and doublespeak, pardoning my invincible ignorance. Even now, with every round of research, more and more layers of deception in my life are being unpealed.