Lordship Salvation: Honoring God by Calling Him a Liar

Romans 3:27:28:  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Lordship Salvation (LS) is the unsupportable belief that the PERFORMANCE of good works, the PROMISE of good works, or the EVIDENCE of good works MUST accompany faith in Christ in order to make that faith result in eternal life.

Lordship “salvationists” (“LSers”) pay lip service to believing in salvation by grace through faith in Christ, but add statements that betray their real belief in salvation by works. By insisting on adding works to the salvation equation, LSers are calling God a liar.

LSers will try to disguise their disbelief in the gospel with self-righteous statements such as:

No man can have Jesus as Savior without having Him as Lord!

This is to insert the work of obedience to Christ as a phony condition to receiving eternal life.  The implication is that the LSer has himself done this, so that he can boast that he has done something other than trusting in Christ to earn his place in heaven.

Should we encourage a person to have assurance of salvation who persists in this, that, or the other sin?

This is to insert the work of turning from specific sins as another bogus add-on condition to receiving eternal life.  The obvious implication is that the LSer doesn’t commit these specific sins, so he has earned his way into heaven by trusting in Christ and not engaging in these sins.

A true Christian will have a change in behavior, attitude, etc.

 This is to insert works into the back end of the salvation equation. The implication is that the LSer thinks his behavior has improved, that he is becoming more holy, and so on.

The intrepid LSer will almost always say that works don’t save anyone, but that works will always accompany salvation.  Consider this recent excerpt from an LS commenter at ExPreacherman (purportedly through his brother), who definitively states that he would not go to heaven if he did not have any good works to show for himself:

I asked him, “If you live the rest of your life without changing one iota, without doing one good work, will you go to heaven?” He said “No”, but he still affirms that he is trusting in Jesus alone to save him from his sins. He denies that he is trusting in his changed life. He said that we are not saved by having a changed life. A changed life is not what saves you. He said that Jesus alone saves people. He said that a changed life is evidence of being converted, not the cause of our salvation.

This patently absurd line of reasoning works like this:  One doesn’t have to do works to get into heaven.  But, a real Christian will always do good works.  Therefore, if one doesn’t have good works, he won’t get into heaven.

In their minds, LSers are honoring God by making obedience, discipleship, and good works contingencies to receiving eternal life.

In reality, LSers are dishonoring God by distorting the gospel, frustrating grace, calling God a liar, and trying to bring glory to themselves.

Here is the real story on how to have eternal life: https://expreacherman.com/eternal-life-for-you/

155 responses to “Lordship Salvation: Honoring God by Calling Him a Liar

  1. Chas – good reminder whether you have or not.

    Seems like sometimes we’re saying something over and over, but it’s because people continue to misrepresent the Word of God. And it’s damaging to believers and causes the lost to stay lost.

  2. Yes, I too appreciate the reminder. It remedies man’s attempts to contaminate the message and keep people in subjection. The empire builders really hate that simple message.

  3. chas, it is a good reminder.

  4. “He said that a changed life is evidence of being converted, not the cause of our salvation.”

    And that sounds so reasonable, doesn’t it? After all, (a) where there is life, shouldn’t we expect to see growth? (Even though we’re not even sure what “growth” looks like?) And (b) doesn’t the absence of growth mean that there is no life, therefore no salvation?

    Such is human, fleshly reasoning. The practical effect of both (a) and (b) is that the believer’s attention will be on “growth”–works–not on Christ. It’s the same effect as the hardcore LS-er who demands “repentance from sins” in order to be saved.

    Until a person regards God’s promise of eternal life to anyone who believes on Jesus as all the “proof of salvation” that is necessary, that person will be caught in the LS trap.

    Have I posted this before? Maybe I’m just reminding myself.

  5. Name, In regards to your understanding of Galatians 5:17-26, King David was a man of God and was an adulterer/murderer, Samson is a true man of God and at the same time a fornicator – Judges 16:1, Noah is a man of God who got drunk and went naked in his tent – Genesis 9:21, and some of the Corinthian believers got drunk in 1 Corinthians 11:20-22.

    God chastised them in 1 Corinthians 11:29-30 with sickness, and physical death, but they were still saved. The fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, peace, patience, etc, are attributes that can also be seen in unsaved philanthropists, humanitarianists, Buddhists, practitioners of Tai Chi, and even among some atheists.

    The context of Revelation 2:5 is talking about being removed from active service. The church in Ephesus lost much of their spiritual fervor and zeal in the faith and were not fired up as they should have been. Having their candlestick removed does not equal “loss of salvation” if that’s what you’re thinking. God did not want a little flickering flame, but He wants a brightly lit strong flame like that of a flame thrower.

    In regards to James 2:14-26, A man can have a complete weight set and weight bench in his possession as a gift from someone, but how will that weight set and bench PROFIT his physique and muscles if he never works out? The weight set/weight bench is in his possession, but he won’t lose it if he never works out.

    The same principle applies to James 2:14-26. James is saying that there are 2 types of justification:

    1) JUSTIFICATION BEFORE GOD is by faith alone in Christ alone APART from works – Romans 3:20, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:2-6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 10:4, Romans 11:6, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:21, Galatians 3:6, Galatians 5:4, Titus 3:5.

    2) JUSTIFICATION BEFORE PEOPLE is by our works because people cannot visually see our faith – 2 Corinthians 8:21, Matthew 5:16, 1 John 3:17-18.

    There are many devout Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Calvinists, etc, who do good works in the name of Christ, but are not saved because their “Jesus” is not the same Jesus of the Bible. They have a “Jesus” that front loads and back loads the gospel with works. Also, there are many devout philanthropists, humanitarianists, the Boys/Girls Scouts of America, Buddhists, meditation practitioners, martial artists, and even some atheists who exhibit good works and fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, peace, patience, etc, but are not saved. These people can sometimes exist side by side with saved Christians who don’t exhibit good works.

  6. Holly, Good comment. #1 of course, is Arminianism, and #2 is of course, Calvinism and both come to those errant conclusions because its always about them and their works instead of the finished work of Christ.

  7. Name, you might want to look at a passage where Paul is saying the same thing as you point to in the passage Galatians 5:17 thru 26, but to perhaps the most carnal fleshly of all the early churches; the church at Corinth.
    “Know ye not, that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers, of themselves with mankind, nor thieves nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. AND SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: BUT YOU ARE WASHED, BUT YOU ARE SANCTIFIED, BUT YOU ARE JUSTIFIED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS, AND BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.” (1 Corinthians 6:9 thru 11)

    Paul is telling them that their salvation is not based on their conduct or works; but ONLY the cleaning, sanctifying, and justifying work of Christ Paul is telling them to lead their lives in accordance to their new life in Christ and not according to world and the flesh, which will be condemned and will not be part of God’s kingdom; that they have been delivered and redeemed from thru the cross.

    I have noticed that Catholics and other churches who teach salvation is by faith plus a persons works and merits will stop at 1 Corinthians verse 10, but will stop there and not give the next verse 1 Corinthians verse 11, which I have highlighted in CAP’S….Now, why do you suppose that is?.

  8. Name, welcome.

    I had quite a long conversation on FB with a few women and one young man who continued to use that passage from Galatians 5 over and over again to make an uncertain point (he vacillated on what his point was throughout).

    The point of James 2 and Galatians 5 is that believers (already had the spirit indwelling them) were not walking in the Spirit, but instead were walking by the lusts of the flesh.

    Their faith wasn’t ‘dead’ as in non-existent, but as in totally not beneficial to other men. Believers should indeed maintain good works as Titus 3:8 exhorts us.

    Believers were doing the very works of the flesh that were listed in Galatians 5 and also Ephesians 5 and 1 Corinthians 6. In the chapter before 1 Corinthians 6, Paul speaks to more believers who are behaving worse than those who will not inherit the kingdom.

    Who will not inherit the kingdom?

    The simple answer is flesh and blood will not. Only our new creation will. That which was born again of the incorruptible seed, the Word of God. So WHY do believers behave worse than the world sometimes? And WHY the admonition to believers with this list?

    It is apparent if we read context and cross reference with other like chapters. There are only a few possible conclusions, and only one is right.

    1) If you commit any of the sins in the aforementioned list, and you are the believer I’m speaking to, then you’ve lost your salvation.

    2) If you commit any of the sins in the aforementioned list and you are among the believers I’m speaking to, then you were never saved.

    3) If you commit any of the sins in the aforementioned list and you are a believer you are shaming the name of Christ and you need to cut it out and grow up. You are not demonstrating a working faith before others. Your faith is useless (dead) and you need to walk in the Spirit so you can be a witness to those who are still seen as workers of iniquity because they have not submitted to the righteousness of Christ, but are still seeking to establish their own. By the way if you break just one law, you have broken them ALL. Guilty of one sin, guilty of all when living under the law. Believers are no longer under the law, and are counted righteous by our belief in Christ, not by our works before, during, or after. Believers should do good works after we have believed.

    We think the Biblical answer is #3.

  9. Name, thanks for dropping by.

    I am inferring that your point is that we have to show works to receive, maintain, or prove that we have eternal life. If so, that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scripture clearly teaches. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that.

    Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

  10. Faith without works is dead

    Galatians 5:17-26 KJV
    For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. [18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these ; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. [26] Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

    Revelation 2:5 KJV
    Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first *works;* or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
    (He literally commamds a church to change their ways/lives and do works)

    And to reiterate in detail
    James 2:14-20 KJV
    What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, [16] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? [17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [20] But wilt r thou know, O vain s man, that faith without works is dead?

  11. Funny about Tommy Tenney and God chasers, somebody gave me that book, never heard of him before, just got to the part about the acrylic podium exploding and that was about all I could take. Never finished his ‘experience’ but now I wonder what stuff those people plant to bilk the people out of money.

  12. At the time, I had a friend who was a charismatic. He convinced me to chase after experiences, with this fine-sounding argument: if you believe, you shall see the power of God. He told me to put aside intellectualism. In other words, check my brain at the door. And so off I went to be slain in the spirit. He had been too much of a mentor. With a comparison of John 3:16, he convinced me to be KJVO for while. Yet he thought God had annointed the liberal Moffatt. What a mess.

    I would later attribute the experience to “easy-believism” and would dread to go back. I take heed to Hanegraaff’s trite saying, that experiences are notoriously unreliable. He warned about Tommy Tenney. And off he goes chasing god in Eastern “Orthodoxy”.

  13. Jason, your warnings of the pain that you endured due to false teaching should be help others to avoid those specific false teachers, and more generally, the kinds of false doctrinal traps that Satan sets for people – believers and non-believers alike.

  14. It gives me pleasure to discover that all the backloading I had to endure, whether from voices of the past, from a voice from behind the Iron Curtain, or from my own backyard, were whispers of the devil. And it gives me pleasure to relate it all. All that garbage about cheap grace was just that, garbage.

    One time I even had an experience. I was recovering from Armstrong. I had written a letter to a friend that I was sharing the gospel with. I said some things that were strange and wrong. I was relating my experience with Armstrong. Yet at the end of the letter, I got the notion to say that the gospel was simple, that it was a matter of believing. I was an emotional mess. I was not a stable man. At the same time, I wanted to believe that those who taught false gospels were never truly saved even if they once believed the truth. I was becoming hypergrace. I did not think racists were truly saved. Luther was my hero.

    I was getting some rebellious thoughts. I was in prayer, and it was a rare time in my life where I spent my time in much prayer. I was questioning God. Then suddenly I felt despair. Blasphemies were entering my mind, and something was trying to make me utter them. I could feel it physically. It had landed on my left shoulder. I thought I was not truly saved. This was a mystical experience, and I was not liking it. I sought help from people at InterVarsity. They backloaded on me and asked me for the changed life. Nothing I could say could convince them I had it. I got emotional again. I had to get born again yet again to satisfy them, as if that were possible.

    I spent what seems like rest of my life retreating into Calvinism. I came under the spell of Wurmbrand and Michael Brown. Eventually, I researched Lordship Salvation, and one by one my heroes fell. Michael Bowen snapped me out of my deadly malaise, and I started posting here.

  15. To be clear, the satisfaction I get is not from thinking I am superior but from knowing that you (Jason) have searched scripture and weighed the false systems and found them wanting.

  16. I get great satisfaction meeting people like you Jason who have come from false systems. I am chief of sinners as Paul thought himself but I was very blessed to have grown up in a solid biblical, dispensational environment (pretty solidly free grace too). I only judged other systems according to how they dealt with eschatology and ecclesiology until about 5 years ago. I was wayward and while not embracing false systems, false systems led me to started taking theology and subsequently scripture more seriously, scratching my head as to why Christians vary so much on how they interpret scripture. This led me to be occupied with free grace which is where my focus should have been all along. I find free grace so intertwined with eschatology and ecclesiology really all the ologyies. The plain reading of the text leads me to my conclusions in all these areas.

  17. Luther has as many Gordian knots to untangle as Calvin. He too taught predestination and the bondage of the will. His former life as a monk left mystical influences. Wurmbrand was a Jew who converted to Lutheranism, resulting in a Siberian train wreck. Luther once said, “the Christian is Christ”. He drank from the same poisoned theotic well as Teresa of Avila.

    When I was corrected about Herbert Armstrong, I was warned of these errors:

    God is making us into Himself
    Jesus is the first born again man
    Salvation is a process, eternal life is not a present possession
    Jesus enables us to keep the law

    But when I thought I was reformed and got into church history, I found that these errors were all taught by the churchian fathers. The Mormon teaching that God is an exalted man resonates with them. Adoptionism was also widespread once, and is now repackaged by NT Wright, ie Jesus became Lord after his resurrection. Armstrong splinter groups are reading Polycarp and seeing ancient support for their beliefs. The English race replaces Israel now, just as the Greek church did then. It drives me mad.

  18. I think Luther’s anti-Semitism came later in his life after he was gung-ho to “convert” the Jewish people. Of course in his “conversion” the Jew would have to stop being a Jew (ethnically) and this was rightfully met with great resistance. It seems to me that he and his system then became hardened from pride and ignorance. Replacement theology is a terrible (completely unbiblical) platform to build a system on. Luther may have understood faith alone from Paul (not here to debate that) but he whiffed completely on the nature of the Church regarding Jew and Gentile.

  19. Holly, I don’t know if I will ever get over the contradictions that are in Luther. There are passages where he seems to teach the security of the believer. But they are outweighed by the places where he backloads. How he rejects James and acts like the James gang is beyond me.

  20. Hobbs — again, if believers automatically prospered, I guess like Tom Cucuzza once said (not close to verbatim), we’d not need much of the epistles to exhort believers to maintain good works, to add to our faith, to put off the old man, to renew our minds, to walk in the Spirit, to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, to grow up into the head that is Christ, to not be blown about by every wind of doctrine, to stop being hypocrites that weren’t straightforward about the truth of the gospel, to obey the truth, to put aside the sins that so easily beset us, etc.

  21. Jason, regarding Luther, he absolutely did not teach what the Word teaches about Scripture. People laud him today for ‘reform’ but they never have even read his 95 theses he tacked to the door of Wittenburg. The ‘reforms’ he supposedly supported had a lot to do with indulgences not being spread around to the less wealthy churches although he did speak about them not pressing them on the poor, it didn’t negate the fact he never called them false. The Lord undoubtedly used some of the ‘reform’ to get the Word into the hands of the common people, however, people praise Luther instead of the Lord for that.

    Luther hated the Jews and called for them to be killed, expelled from their homes etc. By any standards of the loadshippers today he would never be called a man of God or a ‘true believer’. Only God knows that. But they are hypocrites in their selective memory.

  22. It was out of order before we first believed. Never again, since.

  23. Hobbs, yesterday I saw a sign at a church that read something like: “Do You Want to Go to Heaven? You’d Better Have Your Passport in Order.”

    My comment: When has our passport ever been out of order?

  24. ‘If you aren’t prospering, you do not have enough faith. You see where that could go’

    Yes, all this stuff leads back to that same dirty little message whispered in our ears all the time ‘if you don’t measure up you won’t be saved in the end’.


    Christ died for us. He measured up for us. Thank God!

  25. The lordshippers confuse hypergrace with us. Grace is amazing, and free. Prosperity theology is a form of fruit inspection. If you aren’t prospering, you do not have enough faith. You see where that could go.

  26. Mary, Joseph Prince teaches that physical healing is part of the atonement and makes it sound as if good works are an automatic byproduct of someone receiving eternal life.

    We don’t teach ether one of those things.

    The false teaching that good works automatically flow from faith in Christ leads to fruit inspection.

    See link to previous comments on Joseph Prince below.


  27. Is Hyper-Grace what our gospel is being referred to, what is the difference with what Joseph Prince the word of faith prosperity teacher teaches and our gospel.

  28. It feels like I’m living in an island universe. Most of the stars went dark trillions of years ago. The Andromeda-Milky Way is made up of only a few thousand fifth generation stars obiting the Abyss. All the other galaxies have been redshifted to oblivion. The sun has died, the earth frozen, climate change not caused by man. The gospel was once orderly, man infused it with entropy. What a lonely world.

    And the hymns they sing:
    Jesus Paid it Almost All, A Tiny Bit We Owe
    Infusing Grace, How Neat the Sound
    The Adorned, Celtic Cross
    Victory in Jesus (I repented of my sins)
    Living for Jesus
    Because He Rules
    Anything but the Blood
    Safe as an Arm of Jesus (composed by Wurmbrand)
    Into My Heart
    There is Room in my Heart
    And Must it Be, That God Did not me Choose
    When I Survey that Wondrous Change
    There is Power in my Flesh
    The Prayer of Pope Francis
    Kum Bah Allah
    Ave Maria

  29. Jason, I had read the same thing about Luther and James 2. I have also read that Luther thought someone could walk away from eternal life.

    I was thinking more broadly of reformers, including Calvin, who was both a reformer and a Calvinist.

  30. And yet Luther reforms the Canon by rejecting James.

    I wonder if the distinction between reforming a false church and leaving it is subtle. Luther would have said that he did not leave the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church left him. Yet he recognized the Pope as Antichrist. And yet again, he does not apply Revelation 18:4 to himself. Revelation is another book that he rejected, as too difficult.

    Luther is a grave disappointment, like Joseph Prince. Hypergrace, yet not fully grace.

    Rejecting the Catholic Church entails rejecting the church fathers, starting with Polycarp. He may have been with John at Smyrna, but he was not of them. For Polycarp taught that God is Father and Son and is making us into Himself, which is Armstrongism. And yet we are told that they are our ancestors and that we must worship them. After all, they have become part of the God Family. I repented of Armstrongism only to find that Armstrongism is precisely what the One True Church has taught all along. British Israelism is just another form of Replacement Theology. My head hurts.

  31. Jason and Holly, I agree that one cannot “reform” a false religion.

    “Reformers” who use James 2 (or any other scripture) to try to convince people that good works are automatic in the lives of believers, and thereby to falsely conclude that the presence or absence of good works can be used to prove the presence or absence of eternal life, have not really “reformed” anything.

    Such false teaching just reinforces something that most unsaved people naturally already believe – that one has to earn eternal life by some nebulous combination of good intentions and unquantified measure of good works.

    People who teach a false gospel of works in exchange for eternal life are teaching people to enter the sheepfold by some other way than by faith alone in Christ alone.

    John 10:1: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

  32. Holly, today I was just in Barnes and Noble reading Lindal Roper’s book on Luther. Amazon reviewers observe that Roper has left wing bias, nevertheless she seems to objectively portray the dark side of a worshiped hero. She remarks that liberty of conscience did not mean for Luther what it means today, and Luther does not seem to mean what Paul taught about the subject. For liberty would certainly have it that infant baptism should not be forced against one’s conscience nor rebaptism prohibited.

    I was shocked to read that Luther was double-minded about even the very reforms he allegedly supported. When Karlstadt wanted to smash idols, Luther prohibited him. And yet Karlstadt was more in touch with the people. Luther even opposed German mass and communion in two kinds, only because the one implementing them was someone he hated. Luther flip-flopped for emotional reasons.

    One thing that stands out is that everyone involved in the plot seems to seek martyrdom. While there are the martyrdoms of John the Baptizer, Stephen and Peter, none of the deaths of other apostles are directly mentioned in the Bible, and we only read about them from the church fathers. Anytime martyrdom is used as rhetoric, it always leads to boasting about who is more worthy, and nothing good comes of it. I cringe even when Hixson or Mark S mention it. No one from that period ever seems to have a sound mind.

  33. Maximillian, coming a little late to the table, and I haven’t read all the comments of brethren here, so this may be redundant.

    Funny, I was just reading a little more on the Protestant ‘reformation’. I find it interesting the different ‘takes’ on what actually happened back then, but whether pro or against, the outcome is basically the same.

    What supposedly set them apart was their understanding of grace (supposedly). One thing is consistent though, even though declared they affirmed faith alone, they continued in the Roman Catholic tradition of interpreting James 2:14-26 and contradicted in the same breath what they declared to be true.

    That’s the saddest part of the ‘protest-ants’. They simply reformed Roman Catholicism — they didn’t mark and avoid it, they just repackaged it. Unfortunately this tradition continues in most churches today.

    They didn’t look at the whole of Scripture — the whole counsel of God in holding up James 2 as a proof-meter of possessing eternal life (as most loadshippers twist this passage unfortunately for them and those who listen to them).

    That God declared Abraham righteous far before this ‘justification’ spoken of in James 2 seems to escape them as they make their own declarations of what constitutes ‘proof of life’. This passage in James 2 is speaking to a useless non-working faith vs. a demonstration of faith before others. But unfortunately most won’t ‘hear’ this as other people rightly explain this passage to them in light of other Scriptures (i.e., Abraham was declared righteous before when in uncircumcision), instead it seems their hands go up over their ears and they don’t want to hear what is said.

    All I can encourage you is to ask some questions of each of these people named in James. Since James called them brethren, brothers, sisters, beloved, that had the Spirit dwelling in them they WERE believers, sealed until the day of redemption and they were failing miserably. James was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when these words were written. So there were no mistakes or misunderstanding, what God has joined together (Christ and the church into one body – Eph 5), let no man put asunder. Do you think the Spirit would actually cause James to question whether these people HE identified as saved people were actually saved?

    No way! It contradicts His Word. That would be the enemy’s way, not the way of the Lord in truth.

  34. Their system is ripped off of paganism. The gods are immortal. The sun god is a god. So the sun god is immortal? Yet the sun god dies daily. Their system is no better. Ragnarok (the Norse myth of the fate of the gods) is a contradiction. And so is Calvinism. If Jesus died in vain, then we may as well be Egyptians. For he has then lost his uniqueness and stands not apart from the other gods. Like the philosophers, their thinking has become futile.

  35. RAS, yeah – what the “James Gang” teaches is amazing, but it ain’t grace.

  36. William and John
    Those aforementioned members of the modern James Gang are about 99% sure that they believe and have everlasting life but their philosophy makes them way less than 99% sure about the rest of believers which causes them to add modifiers to the word believer such as “professing” and to the word faith they add “saving” or “effective”. Can you imagine not even knowing what you believe? Yet these gangsters have a set of beliefs that informs them they may not believe what they think they believe because they may never had been intended to believe what is necessary to be believed . Now if you add works to their system then they call it faith!

  37. William, those are some of the more notorious.

  38. John, The modern day “James Gang” consists of prominent spiritual outlaws as James White, John MacArthur, John Piper, RC Sproul, Paul Washer, Francis Chan, just to name a few.

  39. John, I just read your article on James 2 and I like your “James Gang” illustration.

  40. William, you are right that James 2:14-26 are often misused by works “salvationists.”

    We had an article a while back on that, linked below:


  41. James 2:14-26 has been notoriously used by Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists as a “proof” text in an attempt to “prove” that “faith without works” means a person is not saved. The one verse that throws many Christians off is James 2:14 which reads in the KJV, ” What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”

    The question we need to ask is this, “can faith save him from WHAT?” James is not talking about being saved from hell as the whole book of James was written to people who were already saved. All throughout the book of James, James addresses his readers as “my brethren” indicating that these are saved people possessing eternal life. James is asking if a Christian’s faith that is not put into action save him from the loss of eternal rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ – 2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. He is also asking if a Christian’s inactive faith will save him from appearing cold and insensitive in the eyes of those in need. James 2:14 entails these implications.

  42. Maximilian, Regarding James 2:14-26, the first part of James 2:14 is asking about profit. He is asking what profit is there if a Christian does not put his/her faith into ACTION? James 2:15-16 explains how a Christian’s faith that is not put into action will not profit a needy brother or sister. Verse 16 asks how it will profit. A Christian who is saved and whose faith is not put into action will not profit the Christian himself and will not profit others in need. James is exhorting saved Christians to put their faith into ACTION to prevent spiritual atrophy/stagnancy. A faith that is put into action pleases God and also earn the Christian eternal rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ – 2 Corinthians 5:10 – “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

    James is not saying that “faith without works is dead” means that the person is unsaved.

    1 John 3:17-18 is parallel to James 2:15-16 by saying, ” If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.”

    James is also teaching that there are 2 types of justification:

    1) Justification before GOD which is eternal salvation is by FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE APART FROM WORKS – Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:20, 3:28, 4:3-5, 9:32, 11:6, Galatians 2:16, 2:21, Galatians Ch.3, Titus 3:5.

    2) Justification before PEOPLE is by our WORKS. People cannot visually see our faith and they can only see our faith when we exercise our faith
    by putting it into action, not to be saved, but because we ARE SAVED – Ephesians 2:10. In Ephesians 2:10 in the KJV, it says that we “should walk” in good works, not “must walk” or “will walk”. We are to do good works if we want to be a good witness for Christ and good works will help prevent spiritual atrophy/stagnancy and will help us to grow and progress forward in discipleship/sanctification – Matthew 5:15-16, Luke 8:16, 11:33, 2 Corinthians 8:21, 1 John 3:17-18.

    When Abraham BELIEVED God in Genesis 15:6, he was justified and eternally saved at that moment in time, then much later in Genesis 22, Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice Isaac justified him before PEOPLE, that is, the whole nation of Israel. Abraham put his faith into ACTION. Rahab the prostitute’s faith in God justified and saved her eternally in Joshua 2, and her hiding the 2 spies and sending them off in a different direction justified her before her whole family when they were spared from physical death – Joshua 6:25, Hebrews 11:31. Rahab put her faith into ACTION.

    James 2:14-26 is an exhortation for all saved Christians to put their faith into ACTION to prevent spiritual atrophy/stagnancy and to be a good witness for Christ. Doing good works will justify us before PEOPLE so that people can see God’s love manifest in our lives. Doing good works will help edify us spiritually and to help us progress forward in discipleship/sanctification. God does not want us to be “missing in action”. There are many Christians who are saved, but are very LAZY.

  43. It always confounds me how people can confirm to believe that they are saved by faith alone and yet read James 2 in way that denies justification before God through faith alone. I am not trying to pile on Maximilian but in his short comment he separated faith and works twice after implying that they are inseparable [Having saving faith will result in works]. Faith is not a synonym for works. If it were there would be no need for the “and”. Works are a byproduct of faith that is functioning.

    As James illustrates, dead faith is like a body without spirit yet the body was alive (with spirit) at one time. It did not cease being a body; it ceased to function as a body. There are two justifications spoken of in James 2, one by faith and one by works, not one justification by faith that works or faith that is works. It’s not “Man is justified by works and not only by faith”: It’s “Man is justified by faith and man is by works”: Two justifications in two separate realms. The same can be said for the word “saved”. Man is saved from the second death by faith alone in Christ alone and man is saved from the consequences of dead faith by applying the word of God to their lives.

  44. Faith is one of those things that you either have or don’t. There are no in-betweens. There may be weaker faith and stronger faith, but it is all faith nonetheless. Even the weakest faith saves a person.

    If someone has put their faith entirely in Christ for their salvation, then they are saved.

    We must be on the lookout for those who pervert the definition of faith to include works. Faith and works are separate according to God’s Word:

    – Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    God’s Gospel of grace crushes the self-righteousness of man.

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

    That verse in my opinion is exact reason why so many people misunderstand God’s Word and God’s character. They assume He thinks and acts like men. Far from it. Far from it.

  45. Hi Maximilian,

    Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

  46. Yes Max, we are new creations as it says in 2 Cor 5:17, but that simply means we had to be created anew in Christ’s perfect righteousness and sinlessness to have eternal life with God. So Christ had to take away all our sins at the cross and give us his perfect righteousness by imputation (2 Cor 5:21) making us new creations in Him. As He died and rose for us, so we died and then rose as new creations in Him. 2 Cor 5;17 has to do with our new identity in Christ. If it were based on our actions, works, behavior, godliness… none of us would ever measure up; we would be doomed.

  47. Maximilian, thanks for swinging by our oasis of grace.

    We do not agree that “saving faith” makes good works inevitable. If good works WILL be present than good works MUST be present. Also, we do not believe that the passage you cited from James has to do with proving who the true believers are.

    Since you have found your way to the ExPreacherman site, you might like our latest article, which is linked below:


  48. It is indeed true that we are saved by grace through faith as it is a gift from God. Having saving faith will result in works of some sort as any one who is in Christ is a new creation. Having a look at James 2:14-26 on faith and works…

    Faith and Deeds
    14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[b] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

  49. Only three installments? That means eventually you had to stop paying. Clearly your free gift has been revoked from you.

    Better get down to the confession booth asap. Also don’t forget to pay some indulgences and say 247 hail Mary’s on your way out. Hell awaits you if you don’t 🙂

  50. For me, it costed $699 in three installments. What a scam. Not paid in full at all. They used the following tactics: pressure to perform, pressure to decide, doublespeak, and pretending to be authority (government). Had to have the bank rip my card. Lies were no doubt involved.

    The false gospel uses the same method
    pressure to perform
    pressure to decide
    bait and switch
    pretending to be authority (apostolic, Catholic)
    lies, damned lies and lordship damnation

  51. Obviously the free gift requires monthly payments of $29.99 including gst.

  52. Hobbs, very well said – sarcasm and all!

  53. Getting this mental image of God grabbing believers by the neck at the end of their lives, chopping them down, chucking them in the fire and declaring: ‘Well he didn’t bear any fruit. Totally useless! What do they think – it’s a FREE GIFT or something?!’

    Don’t mean sarcasm with that by that, just irony.

    I mean if it’s not a FREE GIFT why does the Bible say it is in so many places?

  54. If a man concludes that another man is not saved because of the way he is living, he still cannot see that man’s heart and know whether he has actually trusted Christ or not, because it is faith alone that saves – not faith plus works, or faith plus a showing of works. It would be wrong to judge another’s heart as we cannot see their heart. On the other hand, God can see men’s hearts. That is one of the distinctions James is making in his letter from, lets say, Pauls letter to the Romans.

    I know that one of first thoughts at this point is: “faith without works is dead”. This is true, but the original Greek word translated “dead”, nekros, does not mean non-existent, it means idle or unused. Faith without works is PRACTICALLY useless, but still ensures the believer’s eternal destination.

    The early church at Corinth was living in a fairly sinful state for a number of years before Paul wrote 1 Corinthians in order to rebuke them and set them straight so to speak. Interestingly Paul did not question in that entire letter their salvation. In fact, from the very get-go he affirmed it:

    – 1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

    A person cannot lose their salvation, your post to johninnc seemed to imply the contrary, my apologies if I am wrong:

    – Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    – Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    The Greek word translated “repentance” in Romans 11:29 means “irrevocable”. The NASB (and some other newer translations) hit the nail on the head with that translation:

    – Romans 11:29 (NASB) for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

    This begs the question, if eternal life is a gift of God and God’s gifts are irrevocable, then a person’s salvation cannot be lost.

    I know the term easy-believism is closely associated with walking down and aisle or saying a sinner prayer to be saved. That’s not what saves a person. Faith in Christ’s death, burial and bodily ressurection as full payment for their sins (the Gospel) saves a person. With that said, it IS easy to believe.

  55. Jonas, it would seem, from your pejorative use of the term “easy believism,” that you are uncomfortable with grace. This may explain why you are insistent on the inevitability of good works as evidence that someone has eternal life.

    None of your arguments are new to us. we have heard them so many times, we can’t count them.

  56. Jonas, to say that “saved faith” WILL result in works is to say that “saved faith” MUST result in works.

    The Bible simply does not teach that good works are automatic in the lives of believers. In the parable of the sower, soils 2-4 represent saved individuals.

    You said: “I’ve seen both extremes.”

    My comment: What you’ve seen has no bearing on whether or not it something is true. There are not two extremes. There is one truth: Eternal life is by grace ALONE by faith ALONE in Christ ALONE. Anything else is a false gospel.

    The Bible says that anyone who has believed in Jesus as Savior has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited. The Bible also says that anyone who has believed in Jesus as Savior can be assured that he has eternal life. If one had to wait to see whether the works manifest themselves to know he has eternal life, then he could never really have assurance.

    Jonas, rather than continue to answer your comments, and thereby subject our readers to a “tennis match” of eternal salvation by grace through faith in Christ (which we proclaim at this site) and eternal salvation by grace through faith in Christ plus works (which you are promoting), I invite you to read the attached gospel presentation:

    Click to access English-Display-Pkg-2014.pdf

    Thank you for your interest in this website, and I pray that you will give serious consideration to our responses to your comments. We will not be posting any further of your comments.

  57. Hi Brad,

    I agree with what you are saying.
    You said:
    “The passages you cited from James are talking about being justified in men’s sight. Men see works, God sees faith. What good, practically, is a man’s faith if he is not putting it into practice in his life? He is living in the Spirit, but not walking in the Spirit:”

    This is correct. James called this works. This is the “flip” side of it I was mentioning. I guess why I point this is to avoid the easy believism.

  58. Hi John

    I hear what you are saying. As mentioned I’ve seen both extremes. I see that you are stressing the fact that we are saved by Grace and not our works which is good but as mentioned there is a flip side which is that saved faith will result in works.

    Have a look at the parable of the sower. The seed in the good soil produced a yield of various amounts. Will every believe have the exact same amount of fruit? No. But every tree that does not bear fruit will be cut down.

  59. Note to KR, I’m glad you are still coming to our oasis of grace.

  60. Hi Jonas.

    If the bible says that we are saved by grace through faith, how can the bible also say we are saved by our efforts or works?

    There is no “flip side” to grace. The very definition of the word demands an absense of self-merit. I say this with love.

    The unrighteous won’t inherit the kingdom of God, that is true. But the bible also tells us that there are NONE righteous, not even one! It also tells us that all of our works are filthy and imperfect in God’s sight:

    – Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    – Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    – Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

    – Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    That would mean we need the righteousness of someone else imputed to our accounts through faith, namely Christ’s righteousness, to be DECLARED righteous in God’s sight, therefore being able to inherit (enter) the kingdom of God:

    – Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    – Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    – Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    The two greatest commandments of the law are to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind and soul and to love thy neighbour as thyself. Thankfully we are not justified by the deeds of the law or else we would all be going to hell:

    – Matthew 22:36-39 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    – Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    – Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    God’s standard for righteousness is absolute perfection from cradle to grave:

    – Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    It’s important to remember we are all hell deserving sinners who need a savior. If we could save ourselves then Christ is dead in vain. Christ is the Savior and there is no other way to the Father but by Him:

    – Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    – John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    The passages you cited from James are talking about being justified in men’s sight. Men see works, God sees faith. What good, practically, is a man’s faith if he is not putting it into practice in his life? He is living in the Spirit, but not walking in the Spirit:

    – Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

    In the book of John, some asked Jesus what works they must do to be saved. Christ’s reply cannot be overlooked:

    John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

  61. Jonas, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    We would agree that It is God’s will that Christians live holy lives.

    However, living a holy life is not required to receive eternal life, keep eternal life, or to provide evidence (either primary or confirmatory) that one has received eternal life.

    There is no “balance” between grace and works in determing whether or not someone has eternal life. Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    We are familiar with each of the passages that you have cited.

    Regarding Acts 3:19, “repent,” when used in conjunction with receiving eternal life, never has sin as it’s object.

    We are familiar with this and each of the other passages that you have cited.

    For explanations of the other passages you have cited, please see link below:


  62. I seem to see this quite often… people seem to go to both extremes on this. Let’s look to see what the bible says:

    For by Grace you are saved through faith. And it is not your own doing; it is a gift from God. EPH 2:8.

    Therefore if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: the old has gone, the new is here. 2COR 5:17

    Repent then and turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord ACTS 3:19

    Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherent the kingdom of God? 1COR 6:9

    There are many passages about being saved but Grace through faith. There is however a flip side where there are many passages about seeking to live holy.

    Read James 2:14-26 to get a better I’m standing.

  63. Brad, very nicely said.

  64. If we have to turn from sins and follow Christ in order to be saved, then we have to remember that God demands absolute peefection in order to be saved (which is why perfect Christ had to do all the work for us).

    We would, as imperfect beings, have to be perfect in all of our ways. An impossibility. Even if we could suddenly start being perfect in all of our ways, our past sins would still need to be paid for. Good deeds don’t pay for bad deeds.

    Legalists miss this.

  65. “We are made in the image of GOD, and we are to FOLLOW CHRIST – READ THE KING JAMES VERSION – IT’S IN THERE!!!”

    Follow Christ for what?
    and by what standard do we know when we are following Christ for the amount of works we see?
    Judas was a Christ Follower ?

  66. People seem to enjoy misrepresenting the free grace position as if we are condoning sinful lifestyles even though we make it clear that we should not live like the world.

    It is interesting that the Apostle Paul had the same issue in his days preaching the gospel:

    Romans 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

    The flesh is empowered by the law. I know as I am sure many of us do, that giving a list of “thou shalt nots” to our flesh only encourages it to break those imposed rules. Remove the “must nots” or “will nots” and replace them with “should nots” and the flesh loses its power. Kind of like a rebellious teenager haha.

  67. Kimberly, thanks for dropping by and commenting.

    You are correct that Christians SHOULD not allow themselves to be conformed to the world, and SHOULD follow Christ in obedient discipleship. However, when one makes those things either conditions for receiving eternal life, or automatic outcomes of having received eternal life, then eternal life is no longer a gift – it is a trade.

    The Bible is clear that believers have a choice. Check out these verses:

    Romans 6:12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

    Romans 12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God

    Galatians 5:25: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

    Kimberlee, these verses were all written to believers! If these things were automatic, why did they need to be written?

    I have to imagine that you still sin, Kimberlee. Even if you are not strung out on heroine, or falling down drunk, or cursing, or committing fornication. You may be avoiding those particular things, but there is still sin in your life. Accordingly, your behavior (or improved behavior) still does not qualify you for heaven. Are your sins evidence of the Holy Spirit in your life? I would think not, since God would not have you sin.

    Since you still sin, and you have to be perfect to get into heaven, what are you going to do? Is your assurance in avoiding the sins you listed, or does it come from God’s promises alone?

  68. Kimberlee Rivera

    I have watched and listened to Paul Washer, Tim Conway, and John MacArthur for three years now, and you are mistaken. They teach the free gift of salvation – by grace through faith in JESUS CHRIST are ye saved!!! They teach that once you are saved, you will be led by the HOLY SPIRIT unto good works, and you will want to deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow JESUS CHRIST!!! In the Bible we who are “being saved,” ( meaning sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT), and saved by grace through faith in JESUS CHRIST, are called to be set apart from the world! How are we to be witnesses for JESUS CHRIST if we claim we are saved, but yet we are strung out on heroin, and falling down drunk, and cursing, and committing fornication, ( oh – uhm – sowing wild oats?) Do you call that being set apart from the world?! No – that is being just like the world!!! We are made in the image of GOD, and we are to FOLLOW CHRIST – READ THE KING JAMES VERSION – IT’S IN THERE!!! If people are looking for “loopholes” in the gospel so they can live like the world – the first thing they will do is blame someone else for teaching heresy! Twisting Scripture is what I call it!!! If you seriously think that the power of the GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST can’t and doesn’t change someone after they have been saved – you might not know the true gospel!!!

  69. Nathan, as you read James, take time to ask yourself questions like these:

    1. Is justification unto life free? (Read Romans 5).
    2. Does it happen right at the moment of belief? (Eph 1:13; John 5:24; Col 1:13 etc.).
    3. Was Abraham justified as in righteousness unto life when He offered up Isaac? Or was it many years before then, before He was even circumcised?
    (Rom 4:10-11), so what kind of justification could possibly be spoken of? Are we justified different ways or over time, or before others? I believe it speaks to a demonstration of faith (works), but these do not save as unto eternal life (Rom 4:4-6; Eph 2:8,9) because we know the Word does not contradict itself.

  70. Here is another link as well From Standforthefaith.com blog. Jim Floyd
    on James. We see so many souls bring up and are hung up James chapter 2 its a pattern.
    Hope you will read Praying for wisdom and understanding and not looking to be confirmed in your Opinion.


  71. Nathan, thanks for dropping by. I have read the book of James. We have written and commented on it extensively.

    You might find the article linked below to be helpful:


  72. Have you ever read the book of James??

  73. Dan, we agree that Tim Conway teaches a corrupt gospel. BUt, we cannot know whether he has ever believed in Christ alone as his savior.

    By the way, the Bible says we are saved by believing in Jesus – not by “asking Jesus into our heart.”

  74. Tim Conway is lost and needs to repent of his false teachings and ask Jesus into his heart……

  75. William
    praying for you

  76. William,
    Will be praying for you.

    John, Holly, William, and Curtis, great responses.

  77. Katie, I prefer the KJV for the reasons set forth in the article linked below:


  78. Thank you God bless

  79. Thank you! I appreciate your response but the nlt is still a Bible. It seems to be a little legalistic to read only the kjv version don’t you think?

  80. William – I started my post, left for awhile. Will be praying. The Lord is with us, He will help us.

  81. Katie, take your time to learn each thing, prayerfully considering God’s Word with respect (Isaiah 66:2), studying with His approval (2 Tim 2:15). See, the problem is so many men/women have muddied things up with teachings that we have not learned to separate verses that speak to responsibilities of believers in order to behave or walk worthy, vs. verses that speak to what one must do to receive the free gift of eternal life.

    So we confuse receiving eternal life to = discipleship, follower

    But one can be a disciple or follower of Jesus and never be a believer, consequently will be some of those in Matthew 7, doing wonderful works, seemingly worthy of a disciple without having ever believed. John 6 shows us many who were disciples were not believers.

    Please don’t read paraphrases like the NLT which ADD to God’s Word by adding ‘FROM SIN’ to the word repent or repentance.

    Turning from sin is a good work is it not?
    And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Jonah 3:10

    As we see just one example above.

    Turning from sin does not = repent
    Turning from sin = a work, a good work

    We know salvation cannot come from a good work.

    But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9

    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Rom 11:6 (see also Rom 4)

  82. William, I am praying for you. God bless!

  83. Katie,

    Samson is a true man of God and at the same time a FORNICATOR – Judges 16:1, then in Judges 16:28-30, Samson commits a simultaneous MURDER/SUICIDE with God’s help. Yet Samson is listed as a Godly man of faith in Hebrews 11:32. Samson would not be listed there if he was unsaved.

    King Solomon is a true man of God, but became a serial polygamist and demon worshiper at the end of his life – 1 Kings 11:1-13. Solomon even built 2 altars to the 2 demon gods, Chemosh and Molech in 1 Kings 11:7. Molech was a demon god that required child sacrifices – a Satanic practice. This was King Solomon. Solomon persisted in his sins despite God warning him TWICE – 1 Kings 11:9-11. Because of Solomon’s defiance, God declared to Solomon that He would tear away a major portion of his kingdom, but do it in his son’s generation because of God’s covenant with Solomon’s father, King David.

    God then brought 3 adversaries against Solomon – 1 Kings 11:14, 23, 26. Then we read that Solomon tried to commit MURDER in 1 Kings 11:40. Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say that Solomon “lost his salvation” or “never had it to begin with.”

  84. Katie, Grace is NOT a license to sin – Romans 6:1, Romans 6:14-15, Galatians 5:13. Christians who are saved and use grace as a license to sin will inevitably face God’s wrath and punishment, the worst being physical death – 1 John 5:16-17, but loss of salvation is NEVER one of the consequences nor is it an indication that a person was never saved to begin with.

    Scripture is clear that there are indeed carnal Christians that are saved. It’s not good or spiritually edifying that they are living in sin. God will punish them because they are His children, but they are still saved. The book of 1 Corinthians confirms the reality of carnal Christians and Paul affirmed that they are eternally saved by addressing them as “sanctified in Christ Jesus” and “saints” in 1 Cor 1:2.

    Paul addresses them as “brethren” in 1 Cor 2:1, as “brethren” and “carnal’ “babes in Christ” in 1 Cor 3:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 4:6, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 10:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 11:2, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 12:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 14:20, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 15:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 15:58. (KJV)

    The above list in 1 Corinthians where Paul repeatedly addressed the Corinthian Christians as “brethren” is overwhelming evidence that these are saved people possessing eternal life. Paul would not have addressed them as “brethren” if they were not saved.

    Self-righteous Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists would of course deliberately deny the existence of carnal Christians and would deliberately write off carnal Christians as “unsaved” despite overwhelming evidence from Scripture.

    1 Corinthians 3:10-15 indicates that Christian’s lives and works here on earth will be evaluated at the Judgment Seat of Christ. If the Christian’s works don’t stand up to the fiery test, then the Christian will suffer a loss of eternal reward that he/she otherwise could have earned, but their eternal salvation remains intact. You need to read 1 Corinthians 3:15 and what it says.

    The Corinthian Christians of the apostle Paul’s time were living in gross sin and immorality, but Paul affirmed the fact that they were saved in 1 Corinthians 3:1 as he addressed them as “brethren” that were “carnal” babes in Christ. Paul would not have addressed them in that way if they were not saved.

    The lives they were living were deplorable:

    1 Corinthians 3:3 – there was envying, strife, and divisions among the Christians.

    1 Corinthians 5:1-5 – a Christian man was having sex with his stepmother and consequently Paul pronounced judgment on this man in 1 Corinthians 5:5 where Paul says, “hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    In 2 Corinthians 2:5-8 we read that this man was chastened and that God had mercy on him and did not terminate his physical life. Paul instructs the church to forgive and comfort him so that he wont be overcome by excessive sorrow and to reaffirm their love and concern for him.

    1 Corinthians 4:18 – there was arrogance among the Corinthian Christians.

    1 Corinthians 6:7-8 – there were Christians taking other Christians to court and there was cheating among them.

    1 Corinthians 7:2 – there was fornication among the Christians.

    1 Corinthians 11:21 – there were Christians hogging and gorging themselves with food, and there was drunkenness at the Lord’s Supper.

    Hope this helps, God bless.

  85. Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

    Please pray for me. I will be having a surgical procedure done tomorrow in an attempt to remove a very painful kidney stone. I am in a lot of pain right now. Please pray that the surgical procedure will go well with no complications. To be honest, I also feel anxiety right now about the procedure which will require general anesthesia as I have been in a lot of pain for 2 days. Thank you for praying for me.


  86. Greg Laurie
    warning False doctrine from his own website statement of faith , the reason why the statement below is false doctrine has been well pointed out in the above response by Johninnc

    “We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful humanity, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is essential, and that repentance from sin and acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is the only way to come into a relationship with God.”

  87. Katie, I wil address your points, one by one, and then I am going to ask you to read a gospel tract, which is linked below.

    1. You said: And once that happens He starts to change our hearts for His glory and purpose for our lives and that He will do good works in us that we ourselves can’t do. Yes we shouldn’t brag about our selfrighteousness but we should boast about Jesus and what good things He does in our lives.

    My comment: Our testimony should not be about what good things He does in our lives. Our testimony should be who He is (God in the flesh) and what He did to secure our salvation (He took away our sins, once and for all, through His death, burial, and resurrection).

    Believing in Jesus as Savior does not require believing that He will change our lives. Believing in Jesus requires that we understand who He is, what He has done, and that He offers eternal life as a free gift to anyone who will honor Him by believing in Him alone for salvation.

    2. You might have heard of Greg Laurie who helps people come to Christ. Would you consider that bad?

    My comment: I believe Greg Laurie is a false teacher, who teaches a false gospel of salvation by works. See links, below, for further information:



    3. You said: I’m not trying to be rude, but after coming to Christ I’ve suddenly witnessed a change in my life. Yes, no one is perfect, but we can’t hide things from God. No one can change themselves only Christ can do that so I know Christ is in someone if there’s little or a lot changed in someone’s life.

    My comment: No one can tell if Christ is in someone if there’s a little or a lot changed in their lives. It is great that you have witnessed a change in your life. If you had not, would you still think that you had believed in Jesus? Our subjective experience is not a replacement for scripture.

    4. You said: A carnal Christian is someone who might go to church but never be saved, or willfully sins. We’re not called to willfully sin either. But will we backslide? Yes, we will.

    My comment: This is not true. A carnal Christian is someone who is saved, but who is carnal. There is no such thing as a Christian who is not saved. See 1 Corinthians 3:1-4.

    5. You said: And we all know Jesus is Lord and that we accept Him He has become Lord of our lives helping to change our hearts.

    My comment: Believing in Jesus as Savior does not require that we allow Him to become Lord of our lives. As I wrote in a previous post, change is not automatic for a believer.

    6. You said: Yes you are right that we will have a constant spiritual battle also. Most of us wanted to give up being Christian, been there before, and I thought I could lose my salvation but realized later on I couldn’t, because Jesus helps us to know to never give up and keep on going. John 10:28 tells us that no one and nothing can snatch us from God after giving us eternal life. Thank God for that!

    My comment: You are 100% correct that we can never lose eternal life. But, it has nothing to do with Jesus helping us know to never give up and keep on going. We do not have to never give up and keep on going. He alone keeps us saved, and our perseverance has nothing at all to do with it.

    Katie, now I am not being rude, but you have posted six comments today that collectively make me think that you have received some bad teaching regarding the gospel.

    For that reason, I would ask you to read the attached booklet several times before you come back with additional comments or questions:

    Click to access the-gospel.pdf

  88. Katie, yes, Jesus wants us to take up our cross and follow Him. Yes, He wants us to be salt and light.

    But, neither is required to receive salvation, keep salvation, or prove that we have salvation.

  89. Katie,

    Repenting of sins is never held out as a condition for receiving eternal life. If it were, then eternal life would not be a free gift. It would be a trade.

    Please note that the KJV of the Bible never uses the term “repent of sins.”

    Matthew 4:17: From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    According to the Bible, walking in the Spirit results in fruit. Failing to walk in the Spirit results in fruitlessness. Since believers have a choice, it is not biblical to say that all believers will automatically bear fruit.

    Christians can live like the world, and still have eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited. If this were not the case, the Bible would say so. Instead, the Bible tells believers to not be conformed to the world, but to be transformed by the renewing of their minds.

    Romans 12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    I believe we are sanctified once and for all, the moment we believe in Jesus as Savior.

    Hebrews 10:10: By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    I believe in being transformed by a renewing of our minds (some would call this practical sanctification). I do not believe that this is automatic.

    Teaching that life change/works are automatic and inevitable in the life of the believer could easily cause a non-believer to misunderstand the gospel and think it is about allowing Jesus to change his life, instead of believing that Jesus took away all of his sins. In this way, such teaching keeps people lost.

    In addition, such teaching may cause believers to try to look to their works and life change for assurance of salvation, and therefore try to finish in the flesh. It also ruins their Christian testimony, if their life change in any way becomes the focus.

  90. I agree that yes salvation is a free gift from God by believing in His Son by Grace alone through faith alone. And once that happens He starts to change our hearts for His glory and purpose for our lives and that He will do good works in us that we ourselves can’t do. Yes we shouldn’t brag about our selfrighteousness but we should boast about Jesus and what good things He does in our lives. You might have heard of Greg Laurie who helps people come to Christ. Would you consider that bad? I’m not trying to be rude, but after coming to Christ I’ve suddenly witnessed a change in my life. Yes, no one is perfect, but we can’t hide things from God. No one can change themselves only Christ can do that so I know Christ is in someone if there’s little or a lot changed in someone’s life. A carnal Christian is someone who might go to church but never be saved, or willfully sins. We’re not called to willfully sin either. But will we backslide? Yes, we will. And we all know Jesus is Lord and that we accept Him He has become Lord of our lives helping to change our hearts. Yes you are right that we will have a constant spiritual battle also. Most of us wanted to give up being Christian, been there before, and I thought I could lose my salvation but realized later on I couldn’t, because Jesus helps us to know to never give up and keep on going. John 10:28 tells us that no one and nothing can snatch us from God after giving us eternal life. Thank God for that!

  91. Matthew 16:24 tells us that Jesus wants us to take up our cross to follow Him to keep faith in Him and wants us to turn from our selfish ways. In Matthew 5:13-16 Jesus wants His followers to become like salt and light to let Him shine through us so others can praise our Heavenly Father.

  92. What do you mean by sufficient change? Doesn’t God change our hearts once we become believers? Isn’t repenting your sins being obedient? Sorry for so many questions but matthew 4:17 says from then on Jesus began to preach, “Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near. This is the new living translation Bible

  93. Katie, most LSers don’t think that one can lose salvation.

    Instead, they think that if someone doesn’t show sufficient change (to some arbitrary standard), then maybe they were never saved in the first place.

    Regarding the so-called “sinner’s prayer” for salvation, I don’t think it is biblical.

    And, “repenting of sin” is never held out as a requirement for receiving eternal life.

    We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

  94. Btw do they think we can lose our salvation?

  95. Thanks for the response! What I meant to say was that the Lordship salvation is different. It’s debatable and somewhat doesn’t make sense. What you said is absolutely true, we do become new creations after putting our faith in Christ alone and that Christ does the good works in us but we have a constant battle with our fleshly desires. Yes, as we become followers of Christ were already considered disciples. We can’t work our way into discipleship. What was confusing was that they say the sinner’s prayer is a false idea when really you are to repent of sins. However, we should treat them with loving kindness, but it feels like they want us to work in for our salvation when salvation is freely given.

  96. Katie, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    Following is our discussion of 2 Corinthians 5:17 from our “Difficult Verses” section:

    [17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Question: Does this verse mean that whoever has believed in Christ as Savior will have an instantaneous change, in which their mind receives a holy disposition, their will is subdued, and their affections are changed from a love of sin and self to a love of holiness and God?

    Answer: No. The affections of a saved person are not automatically changed from a love of sin and self to a love of holiness and God. Changing our way of thinking to line up with God’s way of thinking takes our cooperation, as Romans 12:2 makes so clear:

    Romans 12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by a renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    2 Corinthians 5:17 means that whoever has received eternal life through faith in Christ has been regenerated, resulting in the creation of a new man who is a sinless, incorruptible child of God.

    This new man is a result of the second birth, a spiritual birth, which all who possess eternal life have undergone. The flesh nature, which is neither good, nor righteous, does not go away when we are born again. That results in a conflict between the flesh and the spirit, which will continue until we die, or are raptured. We are instructed to walk in the newness of life (Romans 6:4), to put on the new man (Ephesians 4:24), and to walk in the spirit (Galatians 5:16 and 25) so that we can manifest the fruits of the spirit (which are good things) and not the works of the flesh (which are evil).

  97. This is so crazy to me honestly. The Bible says that everyone who believes in Christ Jesus will be saved. That simple. And once you know in your heart what Jesus did you’re saved no matter what. They seem to think you can lose your salvation which you can’t. 2 Corinthians 5:17 tells us that we become new creations in Christ which has happened to us. So yes, our hearts do change because of Jesus, praise God! Salvation is given freely!

  98. Mary – some have been taught this and have learned to practice it, so I am not attributing what they do to any.. If it is from the Lord, it would be following His Biblical rules. If they say they are, then I have nothing to say, but I’ve never, ever once seen a Pentecostal, charismatic or otherwise able to say they are.

  99. Cessationists are not missing out Mary, this guy is mistaken. The Holy Spirit distributes the gifts as HE wills, not as they do. So, why don’t some of us who think this way, why doesn’t our Father chasten us and show us otherwise? You know if the gift were for today, we’d have to expect them to follow the rules. A known language, not gibberish. No more than two or three with interpretation, if not, stay silent. They all speak in tongues or multiples, and they don’t stay silent. Paul said in 1 Cor 14 that he would pray in the spirit BUT he would pray with understanding. Ask them if they stay silent, most will respond they speak quietly. No! Stay quiet with no interpretation! If you ‘pray with tongues, then WHY do you not understand what you are saying when the Word tells you you must?

    That is the problem, whether they think someone is ‘missing out’, they have proven by their total disregard of the Biblical rules that the tongues they speak are not from Him.

  100. The other thing i forgot to mention, that he said was that christians that don’t serve god, are excluded from reigning with christ. The doctrine of millenial exclusion has man differing opinions with it. I said do u mean a protestant purgatory. He said no, just that the rewards we miss out is on serving in the millenium. If we don’t suffer with him we don’t reign with him.

    I’m not sure is this right. I know the Bob Wilkins and the Zane Hodges were into christians will be cast into outer darkness. But i never thought about that we miss out on a position in the Millenium.

  101. Hi guys,
    Well I did call this pastor at the pentecostal church, who is preaching the grace gospel, he said he was influenced by Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones, so i said to him u would have been Arminian before and now your not. He said he realised he was under a false gospel and leading people astray.

    I thought wow, pastors do shift their positions with doctrine and gospels. i asked him why he still aligned himself with the pentecostals. He said to influence them. He is a moderate pentecostal, who doesn’t involve himself with all the hyper charismatics, he understood lordship salvation and who John Macarthur was. He didn’t have a problem with Spurgeon, i told him he spoke out of both sides of his mouth.

    Once again its confusing to see a free grace teacher, moderate pentecostal. Believes in the Rapture and the doctrine of rewards with the bema judgement.

    I said so where we differ is in the tongues and gifts for today. I asked him so what am i missing out on, because i don’t speak in tongues, i am missing out on all god has for me, he said. He said that cessationists are dead and missing out on all that god wants for us. He remained gracious, no nastisness in him at all.

    In time god may bring him out of that, he told me no one has it all right or that anyone has the monopoly on truth. Baffled.I am glad people are still getting saved under the correct gospel. I guess we divide the word of god differently than they do when it comes to the gifts.

  102. Will try and re call the head pastor there, i guess i was trying to see what gospel they are under. They didn’t have a problem with Brian Houston Hillsong word of faith. But will call them and challenge them on these things.
    It has got me stumped.

  103. Mary, I haven’t encountered this. Here is an excerpt from Northland Bible Baptist Church’s “What We Believe”:

    The gift of tongues (languages) was a manifestation of the Spirit’s power solely for the demonstration of God’s wisdom, purpose and power in the establishment of the early church and always was in a language that was in use. We believe that tongues fulfilled its purpose in the first century and ceased to be used before the completion of the New Testament. We further believe that the modern tongues movement is not of God. Acts 2:16-18, I Corinthians 14:22.

    I would also ask about their belief in the pre-tribulation rapture.

  104. Yes, thats what has baffled me, i will re ring this church, to speak to the main pastor, as he has teachings on You tube, that salvation is forever, how can this mix be, from what i can gather, one pastor says that he listens to Jospeh Prince and that Prince has distanced himself from Copeland and all the hyper pentecostals.

    I asked him if baptism or tongues has to be evidence, he says no, has anyone else encountered this mix. i think whats happened he has captured this gospel of grace, but not left the moderate pentecostalism. They believe in tongues but don’t get caught up in whether some have it or not.

    He said they are trying to break into all these churches with this grace, including the Anglicans. I asked him if he agreed that metanoi is just a change of mind and not a behaviour he agreed.

  105. Mary, regarding the pentecostal church you mentioned – do they believe in eternal security? Do they believe that if someone doesn’t speak in tongues, but believes in Jesus as Savior, he is still saved?

  106. Today, i encountered a Pentecostal church that claims they have grace teaching, so i rang and spoke to the assistant pastor, lovely gracious man to talk to. He certainly believes in the doctrine of eternal security.

    I’m confused, because they are into moderate charismania, he didn’t see anything wrong with Joseph Prince, or spurgeon or Dr. Martin lloyd Jones.

    So they may not know about these other teachers, but i guess its possible to be free grace and believe in tongues, has got me confused.

  107. The “I Never Knew You” PDF booklet looks great. Perhaps an addendum could be written in order to include a chapter on John MacArthur!

  108. Holly and all,

    I think this link will go to Michael Bowen’s excellent free PDF booklet, “I never knew you.”


    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  109. This one takes you directly to the pdf file by Michael Bowen.

    Click to access i-never-knew-you-bowen.pdf

  110. Sorry Jack, Here is the correct link I believe. He covers Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, Charles Stanley, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, Beth Moore and a few others.

  111. Holly,

    Thanks but Nope, that link does not work. I have forgotten where I placed the original link to Bowen’s booklet.

    I will appreciate it if someone can find it and post it here. I know it is somewhere on ExP.. Thanks.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  112. Unfortunately Swaggart is also turn from sin, repent from sin Lordship teaching. I don’t know of any Pentecostal teachers who do not teach you can lose your salvation, could be wrong, but that is pretty much the norm.

    On Swindoll, he also was using the “Mess-AGE” new age and occult like ‘bible’ that people excuse as a paraphrase, but so much worse. Also Charles Stanley evidently has turned to teaching a gospel that cannot save. You will find the info in the book by Michael Bowen that Jack shared here. I believe this link will work.


  113. William,

    Thanks for your comment. However, I would make at least one reservation to your recommended list of teachers.

    Chuck Swindoll is known for compromising and cooperating with the likes of Greg Laurie (false repentance and Contemplative Spirituality advocate) in an “evangelism” booklet and served on a discussion panel with John MacArthur at a web site of Laurie’s called Preach the Word. (Not recommended).

    Also 8-10 years ago, when I was able to read printed type on a page, I read one of Swindoll’s self help books on a recommendation from a friend (don’t recall the book name). It was all psychology and no Gospel and no mention of Jesus Christ. That may have been an anomaly but be careful.

    Just be wary and compare man’s words with Scripture.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  114. John, I didn’t know that regarding Swaggart. Wow, it appears that the majority of Christians don’t believe in eternal security. Are we Free Gracers the only ones who do? I remember years ago Dr. Walter Martin (founder of CRI, also the original “Bible Answer Man”) addressed Swaggart as a “brother” in the faith.
    I know that the following speakers believe in eternal security: Charles Stanley, Chuck Swindoll, Norman Geisler, Thomas Cucuzza, Ralph Yankee Arnold, and Hank Lindstrom. I’m not too sure about Dr. Walter Martin because he once stated that when he was in the ministry at a much younger age that he believed that salvation could be lost and I’m not sure if his view changed as he got older.

  115. William, excellent points regarding the moral or doctrinal failures of people in the Bible. Regarding Jimmy Swaggart, I don’t know if he ever actually understood the gospel message, or not. Swaggart has, throughout his ministry, and up to this point, denied the doctrine of eternal security.

  116. I recently made a comment regarding 2 of MacArthur’s closest friends who became apostate and I also recently heard MacArthur give a more detailed and more accurate account regarding actually 3 of his closest Christian friends over YouTube which contributed to his changing the gospel. He states that back in high school he had one friend who partnered with him doing street evangelism in Los Angeles, but eventually his friend went away to college for several years and when he returned, he announced to MacArthur that he became atheist. This was the first blow.

    Then in college another close friend of his who was brought up in a Christian home, who was also a youth pastor at the time wound up teaching philosophy. He stated that this 2nd friend fell away doing drugs and indulging in sexual orgies. This was the 2nd blow.

    During his seminary years, another close friend of his who was the seminary dean’s son ministered with MacArthur and sang together in a choir with him eventually wound up marrying a Buddhist woman and abandoned the faith. This was the 3rd blow.

    MacArthur stated that he had much difficulty handling the realities of his 3 closest friends and that it didn’t make sense in his mind. I believe it was at this point that he “redefined” the gospel and embraced Calvinism which gave a convenient explanation as to “why” his friends ended up that way.

    MacArthur fails to realize that these types of failures, be it moral or doctrinal were common even among the most Godly people in the OT, NT, and even TODAY in the church. I mean there’s King David, King Solomon, Samson, Lot, the Corinthian Christians, Jimmy Swaggart, myself, etc, but we are still ETERNALLY SAVED.

  117. Thanks John, Abe, Cyndi, and Holly on the information on Joseph Prince.

  118. William – So like John MacArthur to speak out of both sides of his mouth…

    Salvation is free…
    Salvation is costly…

    No wonder the lost stay lost. When I did a review on his one sermon ‘the only road to heaven’, his hypocrisy does astound me, yet is it hypocrisy even? It’s just flat out lying against the gospel, and corrupting minds from the simplicity that is in Christ, just as Satan did. I guess I’m not wise enough or bold enough to call MacArthur false brethren, but it’s beyond me how he can be reprimanded for decades and not return to the truth if he ever believed it.

    His gospel is no gospel, it is another, it is accursed…that I can say with firm conviction…

  119. Yes, he is Word of faith… (Joseph Prince). Excellent detail Cyndi, good proving!

  120. Hi William;
    Joseph Prince is a part of the Word of Faith movement. You may/may not be familiar with this > Just in case it’s new to you the Word of Faith followers believe essentially that whatever a person thinks and speaks will attract those things thought about or spoken of. Does that make sense? Very New Age. It originated with Phineas Quimby. Quimby was a believer in a metaphysical cult known as ‘New Thought’. The Christian Science cult/false religion’s denial of physical symptoms with sickness/disease is a result of Quimby’s doctrines.

    This is probably way too much detail, but I would be concerned with any one who claims to stand on the foundation of the Word of God, but also follows any of this New Age, heretical Word of Faith teaching.

    The fact that you are asking about Mr. Prince shows the Spirit is moving in you in His truth. I trust everyone’s comments will guide you as you seek sound Biblical teaching. Be encouraged!
    Blessings to you,

  121. William, I agree with johninnc about Joseph Prince.

    Whenever I teach free grace to people, they sometimes say, “Oh, you need to hear Joseph Prince, you sound like him!”

    So a few years ago, I looked up his statement of faith, and found that same thing that johninnc found, and realized that I’m not in agreement with Joseph Prince. Because if Prince’s statement were true, then what works will result, and how many?

    Digging deep enough into Prince, you find out that he’s basically Reformed-light.

  122. William, Joseph Prince also includes healing in his statement of faith.

    Following is an interesting paragraph from his home page:

    ” And every day, testimonies pour in telling of hearts and minds liberated, bodies healed and made whole, lives impacted and transformed, marriages rescued and restored, and addictions and bondages destroyed. All these just by hearing the unadulterated gospel of grace preached and knowing the truth that today, it is no longer about what we need to do or what we have done to earn God’s blessings, but all about what Jesus has done.”

    My comment: This type of “testimony” implies that salvation is allowing Jesus to change one’s life, with the consequence of being able to observe such change.

    From Clear Gospel Campaign:

    “We believe that in any presentation of the gospel, great care should be taken to ensure that the hearer does not misconstrue works as being a necessity for salvation or assurance of salvation. The Christian “testimony” is no exception.”

  123. William, I have looked at the statement of faith for Joseph Prince Ministries in the past.

    I am not entirely comfortable with it. Most notably, the following:

    “That salvation is the gift of God to man. This gift is effected by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and it results in works pleasing to God.”

    My comment: This makes it sound like good works are the automatic result of faith in Christ.

  124. MacArthur’s radio program should be retitled, “Lies To You”. Does anyone know of the ministry of Joseph Prince? Is he another false teacher?

  125. William,

    Thanks… Those are devastatingly hypocritical quotes… He and those who follow and defend his lies are terribly deceived. How can he possibly have the word “Grace” in the name of his web site? Abominable!!

    He ignores most of the New Testament which emphasizes the teaching of God’s Grace apart from man’s works.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  126. I just got the following quotes by MacArthur in his book, “The Gospel According to Jesus” over the internet:

    John M says, “Faith as He [Jesus] characterized it is nothing less than a complete exchange of all that we are for all that He is.” (The Gospel According to Jesus pg.144)

    “The man who sells all to obtain treasure pictures the one who enters the kingdom of heaven.” (pg 145)

    “The kingdom of heaven is only for those who perceive its immeasurable value and are willing to sacrifice everything else to acquire it.” (pg 147)

    “Those who do get a glimpse of the value of the kingdom will then joyfully give all they have to obtain it.” (pg 148)

    “He will liquidate everything to get it…That is the nature of saving faith” (pg 148)

    “Do not throw away this paradox just because it is difficult. Salvation is both free and costly.” (pg 149)

    MacArthur is such a hypocrite since he does not practice what he preaches. If he did, he wouldn’t be wearing those fine suits up on the pulpit every Sunday, he wouldn’t be living in a nice house and driving a car, and playing golf, and he wouldn’t have a 6 digit figure in his bank account, but instead he should be LIVING A MEAGER EXISTENCE IN A CAVE.

  127. I thank the Lord I was saved by His grace, His exceeding grace… He has reminded me, I am not under the law, but also live under His grace. I really understand that verse Curtis, thank you very much for sharing…

    “That we might live through Him”

  128. Reading your comment I am reminded of this verse

    “that we might live through him. ”

    1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.


  129. Curtis, i was very frustrated one time with Tim Conway’s, “I’ll be honest” message and he gave a long list of what true ‘saving faith’ ‘looked like’. So I made my own graphic regarding what it was. They are so busy looking inward or looking at others, they either forgot to keep their eyes fixed on Him, or never did have their eyes on Him. It’s so ironic isn’t it that they elude to us being all about ‘self’ and they miss that is about all they talk about is what they do, or who they are, or what they’ve stopped doing, or what they are doing for him, etc. If Jesus is Lord of all in their lives, seems like they wouldn’t need to talk about it. They do their alms in public, doesn’t it dawn on them if we are not doing our alms in public, that someone might not know if they have ‘evidence’ of their salvation? It’s ironically ridiculous…

  130. never heard of Tim Conway , but a trip to the churches website statement of faith I see to many words.

    Pro 10:19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

    I choose not to read all of it but A couple of flags that pop right out to me

    “Obeying the Scriptures is one of the chief marks of a true Christian.”

    “Even more, loving and delighting in the Scriptures marks the genuine Christian.”

    Key phrases “True Christian” and “genuine Christian”

    There also is no simple plan of salvation to click on other than to start listening to vids, I will be sparring myself that .


  131. Fryingpan – honestly? I think we can all relate to the “duh” after mindlessly listening to one of these videos and not really even ‘hearing’ the whole message.

    I am reminded of how vigilant we have to be with our enemy who is on the prowl…

  132. Hi Holly,

    Sorry for my delayed response–I have an iPhone now but don’t know how to reply to comments using it yet. But now that I’m back at the desktop . . .

    You know, it’s possible I watched TWO Tim Conway videos in the summer of 2012. I wouldn’t put that sort of “Duh, what’s THIS video all about?” sort of carelessness past me. At any rate, BOTH videos are bad news. And yes, so far as I can remember, he’s the one with the YouTube handle of “I”ll Be Honest.” Honestly heretical maybe . . .

  133. FryingPan…
    I think the portion I saw just spoke of the ‘monkey trap’. Every now and then I’ve done a spoof on these guys, isn’t he “I’ll be honest”?

    I am glad I mentioned it, because these teachers although I’ve heard of them, I confess, I rarely have been one to go along with the flow. So if one was ‘popular’ I shied from them naturally as I had long since learned that the majority were in error. I had heard snippets to see, but also hadn’t listened all the way through. I figured if the majority liked them, likely they were in error.

    You know, your pastor could have told you how to ‘prove all things’ regarding Conway. He also could have told you to search for important things like eternal security or adding works to the gospel, Calvinism or Arminianism. Conway is not only Lordship, but Pentecostal and Arminian. How hard is that for your ex-pastor to take heed to the flock? They would rather ‘get along’, but they will answer and I wouldn’t want to be them…

    Here is what I think of these teachers like Conway. They are likable. And their videos have different elements to appeal to people, whether good graphics, or emotions, things we would like to do better like submitting to Him, or acknowledging Him in more of our ways, but maybe we don’t really hear that they are preaching it as a ‘must’ in salvation. The Lord allows this so we also learn, and are able to show someone else the mercy we were shown and pull them from the fire.

    These guys have become so puffed up that they literally believe that they have given up everything…

    No way, they are lying to themselves, they are false teachers, and are preaching another gospel.

    Works, and more works. A totally man-centered gospel masquerading itself as submitted to the Lord, but that is a lie. Romans 10:3 says clearly what these men are and are NOT doing.

    For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

  134. Hi expreacherman.

    Stu, has followed me to my blog, and has tried commenting there. I assume you can guess it was more of the same, defending his ‘scriptural arguments’ that he said you deleted, and even saying that obey/obedience wasn’t even present in Rom 10:14-17. I will give my response here, in the hopes Evan (he changed his name) or Stu, whichever he may be may read.


    Your arguments were not scriptural arguments. Not only did you say the believers ‘obedience’ was part of the gospel, citing Heb 5, you also said, that the believer through disobedience, could experience spiritual death and lose their salvation through habitual sin and disobedience.

    You also said we need to ‘continue obeying’ in order to have eternal salvation.

    In addition you said, (on my blog, which I did not post) that Rom 10:14-17, makes no mention at all of obedience, and that you didn’t know how; ‘one can equate obeying with believing using this passage since obedience is not even mentioned at all.’

    Stu – Evan – whoever you may be, You are confused, and you are teaching a false gospel by works. So, you will have to find another name, another blog…. You will answer for adding works.

    And let me help you see where believing is obeying the gospel shown in Romans 10:14-17. I believe I have give you enough time, and the rest of your responses will go to spam.

    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

  135. Holly, I know EXACTLY which Tim Conway video you’re talking about. It’s the one where he goes off on a couple of “backsliders” who’ve written him letters, worried about their eternal destiny. I saw it in the summer of 2012 and it was just horrible. I’ve alluded to it in other posts on this blog, but I never mentioned the monkey trap illustration part of it. Your friend was wise to give you such fair warning–friends like that are hard to come by it seems.

    Watching that awful video really was my turning point. I was so confused back then . . . And I was in counseling with my pastor back then as well, mainly because (I didn’t know it was LS back then) I was so confused. I asked my pastor if he’d watch the video for me but he never did. I don’t mind that he didn’t watch the video, as he couldn’t assume every request of everyone in his fold, but looking back it’s beyond disappointing that he was not able to discern that (based on what I shared with him in our counseling sessions) I was simply a victim of false doctrine and bad teaching. Because he didn’t KNOW the full scope and range of false teaching and bad doctrine, because he was peddling a more covert and subtle form of it himself without even knowing it. (He’s a Calvary Chapel pastor.)

    Too bad I wasn’t made sick by watching that Tim Conway video–not in the way you were anyway, because you know better. But I have to admit looking back now, I’ve learned to trust that “punch in the gut feeling of total dread” in retrospect as being the Holy Spirit basically telling me, “That’s not from ME. Don’t ascribe this to God. It’s not holy. It’s profane and of another spirit”

  136. I like that passage a lot too. You know Curtis, these Load-ship teachers use these very things to accuse others, but they even know how to twist this story saying the publican was bereft of himself, had given everything up, was really sorry, in the smiting of his breast.

    They seem to miss their daily signed quote, full of finger-pointing, fruit-inspecting, accusing of the brethren, is just too similar to their counterpart in the Word.

    >> I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess…

  137. This text is becoming more and more of a favorite Luke 18:9-14

    Luke 18: 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

    tell you, this man went down to his house “justified” rather than the other

  138. Have you ever had one use Thomas on you? Saying Thomas said, “My Lord and My God”? He is my Lord and my God, and I know and believe on who He is. Even their religious statement above I would agree with, except I understand their meaning.

    “No man can have Jesus as Savior without having Him as Lord!”

    Some do not believe in His Deity, and/or question it, such as the people that say He was not God while on this earth, or someone as the Jehovah’s witnesses. We must of course believe Jesus is God who saves, God the Messiah. The anointed one, Messiah the Prince.

    You know some are truly confused thinking somehow we deny Him as Lord?

    I’ve heard it and they think by the lies of these teachers, that we are some cult that want to get people to deny Jesus as Lord. Jesus is Lord, we never will deny that. He is our Lord. It is they who say we have not made Him our Lord BY our own works of ‘total submission’, ‘total abandonment’ etc.

    A friend sent me a video by Tim Conway last night with the disclaimer ‘this will make you sick’. It did.

    He likened repentance to monkey’s hand, and the kingdom of heaven being a ‘monkey trap’. He continued to speak of what he said was an urban legend of how to trap a monkey. They would put nuts in the jar, and the monkey would stick his hand in to grab them. When the trapper came, unless he let go of ALL of it, he would not be saved.

    He continued and said, you must‘renounce all you have’, and then said, “If there is even one thing you are not willing to give up, you cannot go through…”

    Wow…. and this ravening wolf thinks he achieved all that ‘repentance’ while he was a sinner?

    I’m just curious, do they have inspectors within the church to stamp them when they are ‘false converts’ or ‘lost your salvation’ so that they can attempt the impossible once again and fail. The monkey saved himself if he let go of those nuts…Not one bit of gospel.

    They too are attempting to establish their own self righteousness and have not submitted to HIS. (Rom 10:3-4pp)

  139. Thank you John for going back into context of Luke 6. Question on cross references. Is it possible there is confusion there because it switches over to what seems to be the Pharisees, the blind leading the blind, (or blind guides of the blind). Similar also is the portion spoken regarding the good tree and the bad tree.

    Just a thought why it’s hard for some to see the connection to vs. 40, and the tie-up in 46, where coming, hearing and building on the Rock are referenced.

  140. Great article, John.

    I uh . . . mainly commented here because I don’t know any other way to receive email notifications when new comments are posted, and I’d like to know about all of them.

    That said, the seriousness of how this type of false doctrine calls God a liar needs to be exposed.

    Thanks for standing for the truth as always.

  141. Stu001, this is a discipleship passage, not a passage about how to receive eternal life.

    You have to be perfect to enter into heaven, not just good. No one can do this. And trying (which is a work) doesn’t count.

    Jesus knows that no one could keep the law. That’s why he came to be our sin bearer.

    Romans 3:20-26:

    [20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    [21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    [26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

  142. How did Jesus define this matter; after all who else better to define Lordship than the Lord himself.
    “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. But the one who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the stream broke against it, immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great” (Lk 6:46-49).

  143. I find it’s very difficult actually to pin down anyone teaching Lordship what they believe the gospel entails in it’s entirety, but if you press them, they will make their colors known unfortunately almost every time.

  144. I was talking to someone of this very thing recently, how they say they believe in salvation by grace through faith, and that they believe you cannot add works, yet somehow, they add works.

    One recently used “outward fruits” and said that anyone that taught that a believer may not exhibit outward fruits was a ‘deceiver’. It spurred me to write some things last night and today, and glad to see your post on it today John.

  145. Reblogged this on Redeemingmoments and commented:
    A must read…

  146. That is true, they do speak out of both sides of their mouths. Perhaps they’re experiencing a conflict of pride? Because so many times pride is at the center of works. Man cannot even allow God to set His righteous standard for salvation > because man thinks he can do it better than God. Also deceit. These ‘teachers of the law’ are not only prideful but deceived as well, as they deceive their congregations and followers, and so it goes . . . the cycle of deceit. As we all know Jesus regularly dealt with these prideful men, in the form of the Pharisees, rebuking and calling them out on their sin.

    During John MacArthur’s ‘Strange Fire’ conference last fall many charismatics wondered the same thing > why won’t John MacArthur sit down with his ‘enemies’ (the charismatics) and address the issues he had with them in a Q & A forum. As far as I could see he refused. So in response to your second excellent point, perhaps he doesn’t seem to allow himself to be exposed to hard, truthful debate that could reveal the weaknesses in his own doctrines. I don’t intend to pick on JMac, but he is such an excellent example of someone willing to hurl accusations and condemnation but seemingly unwilling to face those he judges. Yes he has been on Larry King Live several times, but ‘ol Larry King doesn’t exactly understand the doctrine of salvation well enough to be challenging, and JMac knows this. Safe environment as well.

  147. I want to comment on (“LSers”) pay lip service to believing in salvation by grace through faith in Christ, but add statements that betray their real belief in salvation by works.It just baffles me that they cant see that their mixing grace and works and at the same time preaching that your saved by grace through faith.I guess a person has to decide whose telling the truth I really wish someone would press one of these guys like jmac or ray comfort in a live interview and get to the core of what the Gospel is and is not.Its just like politics the people that have access to them never ask the tough questions.

  148. Forgot to say: Great article!

  149. So Christ IS already Lord > we cannot MAKE Him Lord. Is it the same concept as exaltation? I.E. We cannot exalt Him because He IS exalted.
    Lord and Exalted are God’s attributes.
    Please correct me if I’m wrong here. 8}

  150. “No man can have Jesus as Savior without having Him as Lord!”
    I hear this false statement so often. Salvation has to do with receiving God’s free gift of salvation by grace through faith in Christ based on the gospel. It does not have to do with deciding to be obedient to Jesus as Lord. Christ is the Lord anyway.

    Jim F

  151. John,

    Excellent article, Biblical, informative and strikes at the very core of Lordship “salvation” — which is no salvation at all.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  152. My opinion is they think that there making their salvation more secure by frontloading or backloading the Gospel with works.The truth is they really dont think simple faith is enough to secure Gods gift.So I guess that would be calling God a liar 1 John 5:10

  153. Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.