Lordship Salvation: The Baptist Faith and Message is an Affront to the Gospel

By johninnc

Ephesians 6:12: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The Baptist Faith and Message, which is ascribed to by a number of Baptist groups, including the apostate Southern Baptist Convention,  is an affront to the gospel!

The Baptist Faith and Message has a number of false tenets that are antithetical to the gospel of grace. This article will focus on just one. From the Baptist Faith and Message:  All true believers endure to the end.

My comment: Really? What is a “true believer.” Show me the passage in the Bible that uses that term. What does the Bible really say?

Mark 4:16-17:

[16] And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
[17] And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.

The above passage pertains to the “second soil” believers in the parable of the Sower. How do we know they are believers? The companion passage in Luke tells us that.

Luke 8:13: They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Now, let’s go through a little logic exercise. Lordship “salvationists” and Calvinists don’t really like this sport, but we’ll do it anyway.

We’ll start with John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

That means that anyone who has believed in Jesus as Savior has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited. That includes the “second soil” believers spoken of in the parable of the Sower.  That is backed up by lots of scripture, including:

Ephesians 1:13-14:

[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Now, lets move to 1 John 5:13: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

That means that anyone who believes in Jesus can know he has eternal life. He need not wait to see if he “endures to the end” or “perseveres to the end.”

The person who believes in Jesus has eternal life, whether or not he “endures to the end” or “perseveres to the end.”

If any of the “endure to the end” passages (such as Matthew 24:13) had to do with receiving eternal life, than one of the following would have to be true:

1. No one would receive eternal life until they endured to the end (which would render both John 5:24, 1 John 5:13, and many other passages in God’s word lies); or

2. Anyone who has eternal life will automatically endure to the end (which would render the “endure to the end” passages to be nothing more than rhetorical, unnecessary statements); or

3. Believing in Jesus would entail believing that He was going to cause you  to endure to the end (again, rendering the “endure to the end” passages to be nothing more than a rhetorical waste of time).

The Baptist Faith and Message is not Christianity. It is Calvinism, which is a man-made substitute.

If you would like to know the truth about how to have eternal life, please click here: THE GOSPEL

78 responses to “Lordship Salvation: The Baptist Faith and Message is an Affront to the Gospel

  1. An app becoming a means of grace? What sacrilege!

  2. So true John and sadly they likely will use something like this to round up their parishioners quickly when the Antichrist comes on the scene.

  3. Phil, I just found a story on a new app released by the RCC. Following is the complete text:

    (Vatican Radio) In an impressive move to introduce a legacy of the Year of Mercy, a Scottish archbishop has launched what is thought to be the world’s first GPS-powered Sacrament-finding app.

    Archbishop Leo Cushley from the Archdiocese of St Andrews and Edinburgh announced the launch of ‘The Catholic App’ outside St Peter’s Basilica on 22nd November 2016, surrounded by pilgrims and seminarians from his archdiocese, accompanied by the sound of the Scottish bagpipe.

    The app will allow users around the archdiocese to find the nearest and soonest opportunities to go to Confession and Holy Mass, as well as Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.

    The archbishop called the app “a little bit of smart technology that could make a big impact on how the Catholic Church brings the mercy of God and the joy of the Gospel to our contemporary world.”

    The app will be launched in conjunction with Scottish technology company Musemantik. Dr Maciej Zurawski is the founder and CEO. He said that he now hopes that other Catholic dioceses around the world will purchase the new app. He said that in a time when websites are losing popularity, it is important to engage “with the mobile generation, with an app that is smart and personal.”

    Also present was Monsignor Viganò, Prefect of the Vatican’s Secretariat for Communication. He was quick to praise the launch. “I congratulate Archbishop Cushley, the Archdiocese of St Andrews and Edinburgh and the Catholic Church in Scotland for being so imaginative in responding to the Holy Father’s call to bring the mercy of God to modern society by means of modern communications.” He continued, “That’s why I’m sure that the Church in many other parts of the world will sit up and take note of this launch today.”

    Vatican Radio’s Ryan Black met with Archbishop Cushley after the announcement. They spoke about the app and about the former Vatican diplomat’s recent encounter with the Holy Father at the Closing Mass in St Peter’s Square, when he received the Apostolic Letter, Misericordia et misera, from Pope Francis on behalf of the bishops of the world. His Grace also spoke about another Year of Mercy legacy that will be launched on the feast of the archdiocesan patron, St Andrew the Apostle.

    My comment: This app will help distribute false RCC doctrine, not the mercy of God and the joy of the gospel to our contemporary world.

  4. Chas, regrading your RCC opponent: He has probably been told that “the church” is the final authority from God on Christian doctrine. Catholics are taught that they cannot willfully go against their church teaching on matters of faith and morals on pain of mortal sin. Until he or she sees that the Bible is the word of God and the true authority and not what the clergy of the RCC dictate. then he will probably fall back on what has always been drummed into him by the RCC. And again, the RCC definition of grace is “a sharing in God’s life” which they teach that one can loose through mortal sin and regained again through going to confession to a priest. The RCC never says grace is God’s unmerited favor.
    I know this because I used to be Catholic until I saw the truth from the word of God the Bible and left the RCC many years ago.
    I pray that this person will believe the gospel of his salvation that is simply received by grace alone through faith alone.

  5. Many thanks, johninnc and Curtis M. You reminded me of several Scriptures that I didn’t think of.

    I’m not sure how much good this exchange will do for the person responding. I’m doing it more for the benefit of any “lurking” readers. My “opponent” is becoming increasingly obtuse and bizarre in his reasoning, which must be evident to other readers. The tough part will be knowing when to break it off. I’ve spent a couple of weekends already (including Labor Day) looking up references and composing responses–each taking several hours to write–so this is no casual effort. My wife is getting lonely!

    Anyway, Thanks again.

  6. Curtis, I agree that one should have assurance.

    However, one does not have to be in a perpetual state of assurance in order to be saved. If he did, then one would have to believe he would never have any doubts in order to be saved.

    Then, if he ever had any doubts, he could conclude he wasn’t saved.

    That would put on the believer the burden of maintaining His faith in order to be saved.

    The Bible is clear that some people only believe for a while (Luke 8:13). As such, it is not possible that those represented by the second soil are “resting in assurance” after they quit believing.

  7. TRUTHS ONE MUST SEE AND BELIEVE IN ORDER TO BE SAVED

    I MUST ACCEPT A HOLY GOD’S EVALUATION OF ME
    Romans 3:10-12 There is none riqhteous, ” “None seek after God, ” “None – that do Good. ”
    Romans 3:.23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. ”
    Isaiah 64:5 “All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

    I MUST SEE WHAT GOD HAS PROVIDED FOR ME
    Romans 5·: 6 “For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.”
    Romans 5:8 “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    I MUST BELIEVE THAT ETERNAL LIFE IS A GIFT TO ME APART FROM RELIGIOUS WORKS
    Rom 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the un godly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
    Eph. 2:8,9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast~” .

    I MUST REST IN GOD’S ASSURANCE TO ME
    John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.”
    1John 5 :12,13 “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that You may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

    I MUST CONCEDE THAT MY REJECTION OF CHRIST CONDEMNS ME AND NOTHING ELSE
    I John 5:12,13
    John 3:l8,l9 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”

  8. Chas, I have prayed for you in witnessing to this individual who is so steeped in the RC doctrine.

    The doctrine that has deceived so many is not the witness of God, it is always the witness of men.

    I was listening to a sermon by Tom Cucuzza this morning, and he went through this passage from 1 John 5:

    [9] If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
    [10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
    [11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    [12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    [13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    Tom discusses the false doctrine of purgatory around the 29:40 point in the sermon. Please see link below:

    http://northlandchurch.com/content.cfm?id=213&download_id=1138

  9. Not meaning to divert this thread, but since the RCC definition of “grace” has already come up I’d like to make a pertinent prayer request:
    I’m currently involved in an online back-and-forth with a Roman Catholic regarding the usual issues such as “salvation by faith alone”, Purgatory, etc. I won’t drag the conflict in here, but the Lord is using it to demonstrate to me the current depth of RCC deception on such matters. (It’s BAD; worse than I thought, and I used to be RC.)
    Anyway, the spiritual support of people who understand the biblical concepts of “grace”, “faith”, “justification” etc. would be much appreciated.

    Many thanx, y’all.

  10. Yes, you can find it all there. So any churches using that are fit to be avoided.

    Jim F

  11. Jim, there is also front door Lordship “salvation” on the New Hampshire confession – requiring contrition (sorrow for sin), supplication for mercy (asking for salvation), and receiving Jesus as Prophet, Priest, and King (implicit obedience – like making Him “Lord of your life”).

  12. Benches, right. That is because so many believe like the calvinistic New Hampshire confession states:

    “Of Grace in Regeneration We believe that, in order to be saved, sinners must be regenerated, or born again (37); that regeneration consists in giving a holy disposition to the mind (38); that it is effected in a manner above our comprehension by the power of the Holy Spirit, in connection with divine truth (39), so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the gospel (40); and that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance, and faith, and newness of life (41).

    Of Repentance and Faith We believe that Repentance and Faith are sacred duties, and also inseparable graces, wrought in our souls by the regenerating Spirit of God (42); whereby being deeply convinced of our guilt, danger, and helplessness, and of the way of salvation by Christ (43), we turn to God with unfeigned contrition, confession, and supplication for mercy (44); at the same time heartily receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Prophet, Priest, and King, and relying on him alone as the only and all-sufficient Saviour (45).”

    By making faith a gift and placing regeneration first, they create a case where they need works to try to authenticate if faith is “real”. Instant backdoor lordship. Awful.

    Jim F

  13. “For sure free grace minded Baptists are the minority among Baptists.”

    Yep. Most I have met are backdoor Lordship. “Grace through faith” but “no fruit = no salvation, false conversion” blah blah.

  14. Jim F, good clarification – I had thought to make mention of Tom’s church as an example of a grace oriented church with baptist in its name.

  15. Phil, John

    Yeah there are some Baptists that believe grace is unmerited favor but they may well be the minority. For sure free grace minded Baptists are the minority among Baptists. And of those many will be KJV only. I currently attend a Bible church but would consider myself basically baptistic in a general sense. For example, Tom Cuzza or Dr Scudder would be Baptist preacher’s that agree with the Grace viewpoint. Now others like of the SBC or those that hold even to the New Hampshire confession are going to primarily be lordship in some fashion .

    Jim F

  16. Excellent list of questions for anyone to ask their pastor John. I think a few pastors are defecting from various groups that are affirming things as a whole they as a pastor cannot agree with that muddy or change the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ. Many others however, that may not agree, are staying silent. I pray more people in these churches might write their pastors and urge them to take a Biblical stand.

  17. Phil and Brian, agree that Baptist (and even Southern Baptist) theology is a mixed bag. What I can’t understand is why anyone would affiliate with a group that affirms the “Baptist Faith and Message.”

    Some reasons that are specific to the SBC (but might have some overlap with other groups that use “The Baptist Faith and Message”) would be:

    1. Does the church use some of my offering to support the SBC?
    2. Does the church participate in missions with the SBC? If so, what doctrine is being taught?
    3. Does the church recognize (or even require) degrees for its pastors from the seminaries that are affiliated with the SBC?
    4. Does the church use literature put out by the SBC?
    5. Does the church accept members who have “transferred by letter” from other SBC churches?
    6. Does the leadership of the church repudiate the false doctrine imbedded in the “Baptist Faith and Message,” or do they affirm it? Or worse, will they not take a stand?

    Just some of the reasons I can’t “do” SBC church.

  18. John, one of the first Baptists I knew did say grace is God’s unmerited favor; but he was Regular Baptist and thought SBC had gotten away from the word.
    The SBC does sound pretty Calvinistic according to what you wrote above, .

  19. There are of course many Baptist church’s that are independent. Some will teach correctly on grace and salvation (faith alone) and others will be incorrect (“repent of sins to be saved” etc.)

  20. Phil, I’m not so sure that Baptists believe that grace is unmerited favor. Their statement of faith says that repentance and faith are graces. This would be similar to the false Calvinist teaching that regeneration precedes faith in Christ, and that faith itself is the gift of God. The current version of the “Baptist Faith and Message” is somewhat different from a prior version. I guess God must have changed his mind about how someone is saved (just kidding)!

    From the current “Baptist Faith and Message”:

    Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

    From the 1925 version of the “Baptist Faith and Message”:

    We believe the Scriptures teach that repentance and faith are sacred duties, and also inseparable graces, wrought in our souls by the regenerating Spirit of God; whereby being deeply convinced of our guilt, danger and helplessness and of the way of salvation by Christ, we turn to God with unfeigned contrition, confession, and supplication for mercy; at the same time heartily receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our prophet, priest and king, and relying on him alone as the only and all-sufficient Savior.

    Jim Floyd commented on this a few years ago. See his comment, linked below:

    https://expreacherman.com/2012/12/04/southern-baptists-fragile-detente-the-fight-over-competing-false-gospels-calvinism-and-lordship-salvation/#comment-15506

  21. Chas, the difference is that the RCC defines grace as being a “sharing in God’s life” which must be received through the sacraments, namely water baptism, their communion, and confession to a priest. And that grace can be gained, but can be lost through serious sin and regained again through their sacrament of confession. (I’m a happy Ex-Catholic also)

    Baptists, like us, believe grace is God;s unmerited favor, and that salvation is by grace through faith. But they distort saving faith with their false definition that forsaking one’s sins and trusting Christ as Savior are all part of the same saving faith.

    In both cases, the RCC and Baptists, you have the doctrines of man twisting the word of God.

  22. Chas, I agree – there is really no difference between one “works for salvation” doctrine and another.

  23. A very informative post, John. Many thanks.

    It never ceases to amaze me how people can make the simple concept of unmerited favor (grace) so tangled and complicated. Those statements about “grace” from the Baptist Articles of Faith make it plain that the Baptist doctrine of grace is no different from Roman Catholic doctrine (from which I was rescued some 40 years ago).

  24. Holly, agree, these statements of faith reflect a wide-scale misunderstanding of grace, across long periods of time and spanning many/most of the mainline deniminations and conventions.

  25. John, I am always incredulous when people think they have actually accomplished what they are asking others to do in order to be saved. Confessing sins is a work of the law (Numbers 5:6-7), and cannot be added into what we must do to be saved, otherwise it is no longer grace.

    One thing I’ve never had any success with, is getting an answer from them on how they know for sure they received these graces. Their theology often teaches evanescent grace, which states one can basically be fooled (by God) into thinking they are saved for the whole of their life. Why they don’t see that as deception, a lie — therefore not of God, also baffles me. Another thing I’ve never gotten a realistic answer on is how much sin, how sorry, turn from how many sins, or how long are they supposed to have these feelings — or is it just momentary?

  26. Meanwhile, I looked up the “Articles of Faith” for the National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc. According to the Charlotte Obesever, The National Baptist Convention USA is the nation’s largest predominantly African-American Christian denomination, headquartered in Nashville, Tenn., and has about 31,000 congregations.

    Following is an excerpt from this group’s articles of faith, that includes many of the false add-ons that religions require for a person to receive the free gift of eternal life:

    VIII. Repentance and Faith.
    We believe the Scriptures teach that repentance and faith are sacred duties, and also inseparable graces, wrought in our souls by the regenerating Spirit of God; whereby being deeply convinced of our guilt, danger and helplessness and of the way of salvation by Christ, we turn to God with unfeigned contrition, confession, and supplication for mercy; at the same time heartily receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our prophet, priest and king, and relying on him alone as the only and all-sufficient Savior.

    My comment: This is the exact language from the 1925 version of the “Baptist Faith and Message,” which I posted on an earlier comment.

    This language makes faith itself a grace (part of the gift of God), requires contrition (sorrow for sins), confession (of what is unspecified), supplication (asking for salvation), “heartily” (whatever that means) receiving Jesus as our prophet, priest, and King (which implies that the intention to be obedient must be present).

  27. No problem Holly, I understood your point. I was just acknowledging that I believed Andy to be correct concerning Paul’s usage of the terms. I keep you and your son in my prayers.

  28. New creature or New creation, sorry, still a little foggy.

  29. RAS – you are correct, should have used New nature. We are told to ‘put on the new man’, but new creation is a better choice.

  30. That didn’t take long, did it, ha.

    Ben.

  31. Andy, we agree that no sin that a born again person commits comes from his regenerate nature.

    Christians can, and do give into sin, because the flesh (including our fleshly desires) is susceptible to it.

    See Galatians 5:17.

    Please consider this topic closed.

  32. Andy, the Law that was abolished at the Cross was the Law given to Israel on Mount Sinai. It was this Law that kept Gentiles (even proselytes) and Jews separate. Adam was not under this Law but sinned. If Joseph would have had an affair with Potiphar’s wife it would not have transgressed the Law because he was not under the Law. It would have been sin none the less. Gentiles were never under the Law yet all have sinned. John says believers need to confess our sins not our weakness.
    I do agree with your take on Paul and the one new man differing from the new creature.

  33. Andy Young, PPT contributing editor

    Holly,
    The “New Man” is the term Paul uses to describe the Body of Christ that is made up of both Jew and Gentile.
    “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:” ~ Ephesians 2:15-16
    “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:” ~ ~ Ephesians 2:15-16

    The born again believer is called a “new creature”, but he is not referred to as a new man.

    Moreover, the bible never says flesh is “sinful”. It says it is “weak”, there is a big difference. We must not have a singular view of the term “sin”. The Bible makes a distinction between “sin” as a transgression of the law, and “sin” as an entity which seeks to wield control over another. The believer cannot “sin” because the law was ended for him and so there is no transgression, but “sin” as an entity can still try to use the weakness of flesh to exert control over the believer, tempting him to obey it instead of showing love towards God and others.

  34. Andy, Another example is Samson who was a true man of God, but at the same time a fornicator – Judges 16:1. Then we read that Samson commits a simultaneous murder/suicide in Judges 16:28-30. Yet Samson is listed as a Godly man of faith in Hebrews 11:32.

    King Solomon is a true man of God, but became a serial polygamist and demon worshiper at the end of his life – 1 Kings 11:1-13. Solomon even built 2 altars to the 2 demon gods, Chemosh and Molech in 1 Kings 11:7. Molech was a demon god that required child sacrifices – a Satanic practice. (The practice of sacrificing one’s sons/daughters in the fire – Leviticus 18:21, 2 Kings 23:10) This was King Solomon. Solomon persisted in his sins despite God warning him TWICE – 1 Kings 9:2 – 6, 1 Kings 11:9-11. Because of Solomon’s defiance, God declared to Solomon that He would tear away a major portion of his kingdom, but do it in his son’s generation because of God’s covenant with Solomon’s father, King David.

    God then brought 3 adversaries against Solomon – 1 Kings 11:14, 23, 26. Then we read that Solomon tried to commit MURDER in 1 Kings 11:40. Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say that Solomon “lost his salvation” or “never had it to begin with.”

  35. The new man, the incorruptible does not sin. The flesh in which evil still dwells, can sin. But thankful He has delivered us and will deliver us from this flesh one of these days.

  36. Andy, The examples of the Corinthian Christians are worth considering.

    The Corinthian Christian’s works of the apostle Paul’s time certainly would convince many people that they were “unsaved”. Their lives were deplorable:

    The Corinthian Christians of the apostle Paul’s time were living in gross sin and immorality, but Paul affirmed the fact that they were saved in 1 Corinthians 3:1 as he addressed them as “brethren” that were “carnal” babes in Christ. Paul would not have addressed them in that way if they were not saved.

    1) 1 Corinthians 3:3 – there was envying, strife, and divisions among the Christians.

    2) 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 – a Christian man was having sex with his stepmother and consequently Paul pronounced judgment on this man in 1 Corinthians 5:5 where Paul says, “hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. The Corinthian Christians attitude despite the fact that this man who was sleeping with his stepmother was one of PRIDE – 1 Cor 5:2

    In 2 Corinthians 2:5-8 we read that this man was chastened and that God had mercy on him and did not terminate his physical life. Paul instructs the church to forgive and comfort him so that he wont be overcome by excessive sorrow and to reaffirm their love and concern for him.

    3) 1 Corinthians 4:18 – there was arrogance among the Corinthian Christians.

    4) 1 Corinthians 6:7-8 – there were Christians taking other Christians to court and there was cheating among them.

    5) 1 Corinthians 7:2 – there was fornication among the Christians.

    6) 1 Corinthians 11:21 – there were Christians hogging and gorging themselves with food, and there was drunkenness at the Lord’s Supper.

    Because of their selfish indulgence of food and getting drunk God brought about sickness and physical death as punishment – 1 Cor 11:29-30.

    Scripture is clear that there are indeed carnal Christians that are saved. It’s not good or spiritually edifying that they are living in sin. God will punish them because they are His children, but they are still saved. The book of 1 Corinthians confirms the reality of carnal Christians and Paul affirmed that they are eternally saved by addressing them as “sanctified in Christ Jesus” and “saints” in 1 Cor 1:2.

    Paul addresses them as “brethren” in 1 Cor 2:1, as “brethren” and “carnal’ “babes in Christ” in 1 Cor 3:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 4:6, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 10:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 11:2, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 12:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 14:20, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 15:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 15:58. (KJV)

    The above list in 1 Corinthians where Paul repeatedly addressed the Corinthian Christians as “brethren” is overwhelming evidence that these are saved people possessing eternal life. Paul would not have addressed them as “brethren” if they were not saved.

    Self-righteous Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists would of course deliberately deny the existence of carnal Christians and would deliberately write off carnal Christians as “unsaved” despite overwhelming evidence from Scripture.

  37. Andy Young, PPT contributing editor

    It was not my intention to start a debate. Someone asked me a question and I responded to it.

  38. Andy, we agree that the new man cannot sin, and that any manifestation of sin does not come from the new man.

    However, we believe that the Bible teaches that believers still have corruptible flesh that can manifest itself in sin.

    Please see our statement of faith.

    We are aware of the point of view that a Christian can no longer sin, but we do not agree.

    We would point to passages, such as Romans 6:12, James 4:8, and Hebrews 12:1, that show that sin is still a possibility in the lives of Christians.

    We have had substantial debate over the issue of whether Christians are capable of sin in the past on this website, and we do not intend to rehash them.

  39. Andy Young, PPT contributing editor

    Well it would be rational to conclude that such behavior would be incongruous with the nature of one who is the born again offspring of the Father. The Apostle Paul himself makes this same rhetorical remark:
    “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” ~ Romans 6:15

    The reality is that the believer CANNOT sin (1 John 3:9) because he is no longer under law; the law has been ended for him, so it cannot condemn him. It does not affect his justification. There is no sin where there is no law to condemn. So because a believer is now free from condemnation, where his motivation was once FEAR, his new motivation is now LOVE. He is free to use the law to aggressively show love to God and to others without fear of messing up. So for the believer, a failure to obey does not condemn, it is a failure to show love. Love if the fulfillment of the law. Every time a believer shows love he fulfills the law.

    I like to use the example of Joseph and Potiphar. Joseph would not have the affair with Potiphar’s wife not because he feared Potiphar. He would not do it be cause he loved him and realized that such an action would not be showing love to him or to God. It was unthinkable to him.

    So I guess to answer your question, I would say that we have no place to judge another’s salvation, and such behavior from one who calls himself a child of God is not condemning sin that would affect his justification, it is at best nothing more than a failure to show love to God.

  40. Andy,

    What is your opinion on someone who says they believe the Gospel (the actual one) but continues to live a wicked life and bears no fruit?

  41. Andy, no. We do not teach that a petson must maintain his eternal life by continued faith in Christ.

  42. Andy Young, PPT contributing editor

    “We want to make sure to emphasize that we believe that eternal life will continue [to] be received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone even during the Tribulation.”

    Sorry, could you please clarify that for me, because your statement could be interpreted two different ways. And I want to be sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that the believer’s salvation is maintained by continued faith in Christ? That as long as a person continues to live by faith he will continue to receive grace?

  43. Andy, we agree that “endure to the end” does not apply to the church.

    We want to make sure to emphasize that we believe that eternal life will continue to be received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone even during the Tribulation.

  44. Andy Young, PPT contributing editor

    Let us also be clear that “enduring to the end” passages like Matthew 24 as well as Mark 13, are not a reference to the assembly but to Israel. It speaks to the salvation available to national Israel to those who endure to the end of the tribulation period who will look up to see Christ returning. Looking on the one whom they pierced who will deliver them from all of their enemies who have gather around them. It would be erroneous to make any kind of application of these passages to the assembly.

  45. Andy, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    We agree that someone who believes in Christ as Savior is born again, not under the law, and free from condemnation/judgment in the lake of fire, no matter how he performs.

  46. Andy Young, PPT contributing editor

    ” ‘Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.’
    That means that anyone who has believed in Jesus as Savior has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.”

    Let’s be clear.
    The context of John 5 is the same as John 3. Jesus is speaking of the New Birth.
    With that in mind, condemnation has to do with sin and judgment. Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation for the one who is in Christ. The believer is not condemned because he is no longer under law. The law has no jurisdiction over him. He is righteous by virtue of the reality that he is the born again righteous offspring of the Father. The old man who was under law is dead. In his place is a new creature who CANNOT be judged by the law. He has life everlasting because he is free from condemnation/judgment in the Lake of Fire, regardless of how well he performs/perseveres in this lifetime.

  47. A friend of ours mentioned last night that the “Baptist Faith and Message” keeps changing over time.

    Following is an excerpt from a comment that we posted a few years ago about that exact point. The problem is, the more it changes, the more it stays the same:

    The Baptist Faith and Message has evolved over time, but it has been based on A FALSE GOSPEL OF WORKS at least as far back as 1925, and much likely, even before that. Excerpts from the Baptist Faith and Message, three versions, are set forth below:

    1925

    VIII. Repentance and Faith

    We believe that repentance and faith are sacred duties, and also inseparable graces, wrought in our souls by the regenerating Spirit of God; whereby being deeply convinced of our guilt, danger, and helplessness, and of the way of salvation by Christ, we turn to God with unfeigned contrition, confession, and supplication for mercy; at the same time heartily receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Prophet, Priest, and King, and relying on him alone as the only and all-sufficient Saviour.

    XI. Perseverance

    All real believers endure to the end. Their continuance in well-doing is the mark which distinguishes them from mere professors. A special Providence cares for them, and they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

    1963

    Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace. Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour. Justification is God’s gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer into a relationship of peace and favor with God.

    All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the cause of Christ, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

  48. Eirenacch – that is great news, thank the Lord for the increase!

  49. Jim F – I completely agree, we must say it, we’re responsible to the Lord and His truth ultimately. Not really clear if it sounded somewhere like I meant otherwise, but I do think it’s good to consider what we say and do prayerfully, doing our best to always have Him in mind. I don’t know how well I do. I’m tired, sometimes weary or otherwise distracted, so we never know how that may affect how we come across. At any rate, may the Lord give us wisdom in all we say and do.

  50. eireannach, I am very happy to learn of our new sister in Christ, and I have both prayed for her and thanked God that you were there to lead her to Christ.

  51. Hi guys thanks for the great posts. I once asked my pastor where the phrase true believer occured in scripture because he loved to use that expression. It always made me wince in church. Eventually I had to make the hard decision to leave that church. Its the object of our faith that is crucial and what we believe about it. I had the privilege of leading a soul to Christ last night using the help of this website. Please pray for the spiritual growth of QuennieJoy. Thank you all.

  52. Holly,

    I think part of blog writing that is difficult is determining a specific target audience. Sometimes I also think the constructive criticism given to John could also be given to me. I’ve noticed that sometimes I write with likeminded grace believers in view but in that case it is sometimes written with a touch less sensitivity to others. I am still working on a good balance so to still show love to those who may disagree. That said you cannot over analyze it either and not say the harder truths. No matter what someone might not like something but God’s approve is key.

    Jim F

  53. Ryan,

    Yes you will find that quite a bit. Many Calvinists talk the eternal security lingo but really mean perseverance of the saints (works) and thus no real security. I will pray that you can find a good church. It took me two years to find one and some have yet to find one.

    John,

    I agree with your take on Hebrews 10:25 and 26. Alice and others that can’t find a good church that preaches the true gospel are not in violation of 10:25.

    Jim F

  54. Socal, Hebrews 10:26 seems like it is explained in Hebrews 10:11-18.

  55. Isn’t Hebrews 10:25 already explained in Hebrews 10:11-18?

    11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

    15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

    16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

  56. Sam, my take on Hebrews 10:25 was it was written to encourage the Hebrew believers to continue in the Christian Faith, and not return to Jewish sacrificial rites. The admonition to not forsake assembling was meant to keep them from becoming separated from other believers, which would make them more vulnerable.

  57. Alice i have been out of a organised religion for three years now.I tried to help them understand the Gospel of Grace but all it did was create a frustration i could not handle.I feel more free and closer to God now then i did when i was in a religious setting.I can only speak for myself but im done with all religions and sticking to Grace.I think Johninnc gave an explanation of how he interpreted heb 10:25 a while back but i think rom 16:17 is definitely enough for me.Hope you dont suffer guilt and become more free gal 5:1 day by day

  58. Got this from FB:

    Gym Membership: An Allegory

    One day, a woman goes looking for a gym.

    The first gym charges $50 a month for membership.

    The second gym charges $75 a month for membership, but if you’re short you can do some extra things to make up for it.

    The third gym is free to join, but it costs $100 a month to *remain* a member.

    The fourth gym says it’s free, but if you were *really* a member you’d pay at least $50 to $120 a month “just be sure.”

    The fifth gym is completely free and open to all, thanks to an endowment given by a wealthy benefactor.

    The woman joins the fifth gym and uses the money she would have paid to help some neighbors out.

    ***
    Most churches make eternal salvation depend on works the way the first four gyms make membership depend on paying money. Some churches are upfront about saying you need works to be saved. Others say you need works, but are happy to fudge the exact amount. Others say you need works to stay saved. Others say you need works to prove you’re saved. So far as I know, only Free Grace churches teach that salvation is completely free, because Jesus did all the works we would ever need for our salvation.

  59. Ryan, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    I have encountered the same thing you have – churches that claim they are grace-oriented, yet are Calvinists who do things like favorably quote Charles Spurgeon, or insist that “true believers” will have a changed life (though they can never seem to agree as the nature or extent of such changes).

    I would also urge caution in dealing with those in the “Free Grace” camp who have changed the biblical meaning of repentance and have devolved into preaching a “crossless gospel.”

  60. I am glad I found this blog because it has helped figure out the true meaning of the gospel, rather than the holier-than-thou teaching I get from most other places. I have also been looking for a true gospel church in my area, can’t seem to find one. There was one who claimed in their SOF that when one believes in Christ that they are secure forever. However when I expanded it they went into much more detail they were talking about election and was basically Calvinism.

  61. Alice, like the accuser of the brethren this pastor misuses Scripture. You are not forbidding the assembly, you are forsaking false doctrine. Many of us are in the same dilemma. If we had a good Bible based church in our area, one that taught the clear gospel, we should go, we should participate and fellowship there. I have searched out all the ‘grace’ churches in my area as well as the ‘Christian’ ones. Giving the benefit of the doubt to several only cost us time and could have cost my husband and children doubts because of their error. I will happily go and participate in the day that one is available. A family member told me ‘nobody is perfect and you are never going to find a perfect church’. I’m not looking for a perfect church or pastor, but one that does not teach loadship, nor add works to the gospel. I haven’t been in a ‘church’ building for years, although I have found a body to fellowship with locally, we listen to Tom Cucuzza’s sermons on Sunday evenings together. And we get to assemble here and elsewhere (praise the Lord for that).

  62. Russell, yes, Michael Brown is a Load bearing Arminian who debates James White, defends Benny Hinn, and is sort of a Hebrew Roots Pentecostal mix preacher. (In a nutshell). Definitely to be marked and avoided.

  63. Alice: You are not forsaking the assembling. Finding a good Bible teaching church that clearly teaches the Gospel of Grace is very very very hard to do. I view the church I attend as a mission field. I have wanted to leave but I believe that the Lord has me there. I am given the opportunity to lead a Bible study during the week and as stated, I get to teach an adult Sunday School Class. I teach an absolutely free grace gospel message. I will stay in that church as long as this is possible. If I am told to stop that will be the end for me going there.

    As a side note I am wondering if anyone has heard of a Michael Brown. He is someone to avoid. I have read some news articles he wrote and found out that he is a pastor. I have read some of his stuff and he is way off. Just FYI.

  64. alice, I think you’re right – Satan is using this pastor to try to make you feel guilty for not going to church. I don’t think that any guilt you are feeling is coming from God.

    The pastor that you mentioned is under God’s curse for preaching a false gospel.

    Galatians 1:8-9:

    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    [9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    You do not want to partake in any of the evil deeds of people who teach a false gospel. You do not even want to wish them well in their ministry, provided they continue to preach a false gospel.

    2 John 1:10:11:

    [10] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    [11] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    I would continue to pray that God will bring you into contact with like-minded believers. God did that for my wife and me in what seems like the most unlikely circumstances.

  65. Thank you to all who responded to my comments concerning my interaction with that Baptist pastor. You make very good points and I feel encouraged, edified and comforted.
    As far as his accusation that I am disobeying the Lord for not attending a church regularly and therefore ‘forsaking the assembling of ourselves together’ Hebrews 10 :25, I want to ask you if you agree with me.
    The same Lord who inspired the author of Hebrews 10: 25 also inspired the author of Romans (namely Apostle Paul) to write Rom 16:17 ‘Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them’.
    So by that command, I want to avoid those churches/ pastors/ denominations/authors/speakers/ ministries/organisations which preach a false gospel of ‘faith + works’, who frustrate, nullify, muddy the Grace of God.
    As far as I am concerned if they teach/believe a doctrine (especially a fundamental, essential, central doctrine such as how to receive Salvation/Eternal Life) that is diametrically opposed to what the Bible teaches, my clear command from the Lord is to mark and avoid them. By adding ‘works’ to Grace, by denying the sufficiency of the cross and the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ and His full payment for my sin, they preach a false gospel.
    I believe that Satan is using this pastor to make me feel guilty for not attending a church every Sunday here in my area (Australia) where I can’t find a church that preaches the Gospel with clarity and simplicity.
    For me, everyone who comments on Expreacherman site, is my ‘church’ with whom I can have true, Biblical fellowship and I thank the Lord for all of you.
    I listen to sermons by Tom Cucuzza, Dennis Rokser, Ralph Arnold online each week, so I am not missing out on teaching either (rightly dividing the Word of Truth unlike these false pastors).
    Please understand that I am not trying to justify myself for not going to church, there really isn’t a church here that ‘gets’ Grace. If the Lord provides one, I will be eager to attend.
    Thankfully the Lord has provided a handful of people around me who are all of the same mind when it comes to the Gospel of Grace, and we do have fellowship, prayer and listen to sermons online every week.

  66. “What I have found out is that Christians are trapped in mindless clichés regarding the gospel and have never thought about the real meanings of these clichés”

    🙂

  67. Alice – Just some thoughts on your comments. I recently was teaching an adult Sunday School class and the issue of repentance came up. I brought up that while someone may have no problem saying that a person has to repent of their sins and believe to be saved if they were honest they would say that to be saved a person has to obey the 10 commandments and believe. That is exactly what a person is saying by repent or turn from your sins and also believe to be saved. Most people are not willing to say that because that makes it clear that your telling someone to keep the law to be saved. What I have found out is that Christians are trapped in mindless clichés regarding the gospel and have never thought about the real meanings of these clichés. They also don’t believe that salvation is really a free gift.

    I was listening to a debate between a Calvinist and an Arminian. At the end of the debate they basically came to the same statement: perseverance is necessary to be saved. One stated to prove your one of the elect the other to make sure you did not fall away and lose salvation. How sad. The blind leading the blind

  68. Magnoliaponds – I agree somewhat with what you are saying about using wisdom towards those who are without. But here’s something for all to consider, mostly my own thoughts.

    If we do not explain in a straightforward manner that these things are apostasy or heresy, and we are possibly weak in expressing it by trying to appease others, might we cause others to stumble or be misled?

    Now this is my opinion, I could be wrong for sure, but I am basing this on the amount of time I have lost because people did the ‘nobody’s perfect’ answer to me when I had trouble with a teaching. And by not outright marking them, others don’t know that they are to be avoided. It cost me greatly, so I think we have to discern, who is the deceived vs. who is doing the deceiving. And the ones that are doing the deceiving, I believe we have to be plain — heretics get warned twice, but we must let other people know, so they aren’t misled by them.

    Just some of my thoughts on how I believe we’re guided in these instances, but still learning after all these years, and still struggling actually with letting my sensitive feelings get in the way of doing the hard thing. I’m thankful for those who are strong and speak plainly about these things.

    I loved Jack, I wish I had the pleasure of meeting him in person this side of heaven, but one day, looking forward to seeing many who have gone on before me.

  69. Alice, praise God that you took you stand against loadship salvation.
    God has made salvation so simple, too simple for the prideful, “theologically educated.”
    The plan is clear: we were under the slavery of sin that condemns us and their is nothing we can do to escape this bondage. But Christ paid the price at the cross to free us from the penalty of our sins: he has bought us from the slave market of sins condemnation. All we are required to do is accept the sacrifice of the risen Christ and He eternally sets us free! There is nothing we can add to this of ourselves or change about ourselves to make us fit to be saved. All we can do is accept his offer of forgiveness and eternal life.
    These churches that put “repent” into their statements of faith are actually adding something to simply believing the gospel of our salvation. The truth is if all of these people (this pastor you mention included) who insist a person must “repent” of their sins to be saved would all fail and be condemned. Because they would never live up to their commitment to forsake their sins.

  70. Alice,

    Grace does tend to seem like “hyper”grace when compared to “grace” that has been mixed with works. But it is rather simple. Is it by faith or by works? If a pastor adds in even one work then they are choosing salvation by works. Maybe this pastor will one day see the truth of the issue through the deception his has been brought under.

    I am glad to hear about how you stood up to him with the truth.

    Jim F

  71. Alice, it’s really amazing how so many want to cling to their church traditions over the word of God.

    What kind of fruit would be good enough for this pastor? How much? Would doing bad things offset the good things that he did?

  72. Johninnc, your new post this week is timely and God used it to confirm that I am on the right track. You make an excellent point: ‘That means that anyone who believes in Jesus can know he has eternal life. He need not wait to see if he “endures to the end” or “perseveres to the end.”’
    Ironically, I was speaking to a Baptist pastor over the phone 2 days ago exactly about the ‘Parable of the Sower’ and the 4 soils.
    He told me that soils 2 and 3 represent ‘unsaved’ people because they didn’t produce any fruit or persevere until the end when persecution or temptation came, and they fell away.
    Only those who produced fruit in Soil 4 are saved, according to him. When I asked him what is/are the condition/s for ‘salvation’, he replied ‘faith’ but to prove that the faith is genuine or real, there HAS to be ‘fruit’.
    He asked me what church do I go and when I told him that I don’t, he accused me of ‘forsaking the assembling of ourselves together’ etc, and that I am disobeying God.
    I told him would go to a church if it preached ‘Grace’ Biblically but there isn’t any such church in my area. He told me to come to his church as they preach ‘Grace’ but he doesn’t realise that he is actually LS.
    He also told me that I have moved to the other extreme from Legalism to Hyper-grace, and that I have a false gospel of ‘NO-REPENTANCE’ gospel or ‘NO-LORDSHIP’ gospel.
    He defines ‘Repentance’ as turning from sin and told me that God doesn’t save us IN our sins but FROM our sins, so Repentance for him, is ‘turning’ and/or ‘be willing to turn’ from sin.
    I tried to direct him to Dr. Tom Cucuzza’s ‘Understanding Repentance’, but he told me that I am listening to too many ‘men’ and he doesn’t care if someone is a Dr or whatever, he wasn’t going to listen.
    At the end of the day, it is really difficult to ‘contend’ for the faith, but we keep going….

  73. magnoliaponds, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    It is great to hear from someone who knew the late Jack Weaver, particularly someone who was ordained into the ministry by him.

    I understand what you are saying about not wanting to cause potential readers to become defensive, and thus not consider the truth of the information being presented.

    I will take that into consideration in future writing, but must continue to balance gentleness with the urgent need to awaken the “evangelical” community to the errors that they may be embracing, and perpetuating.

  74. magnoliaponds

    Hello John. I enjoy getting your emails as Jack Weaver was one of my closest friends when I was in Florida and he was also the minister who ordained me. Bit of constructive criticism here. In your most recent email you describe the Southern Baptist convention as apostate. I believe that they are. But if I was a southern baptist and was getting your email, I would immediately be defensive when you start calling my organization apostate in I may not pay attention to the truth that you have to deliver. Let your grace be seasoned with salt and convince the listeners without being negative. They will listen and read further if they are not attacked.  In the furtherance of the truth, Max.

    Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

  75. RAS, thanks for your explanation of the “endure to the end passages.” I think, in particular, it is helpful in addressing the misconception that some hold that for post-tribulation saints, eternal life will be gained by faith plus enduring to the end.

  76. Daniel, that will be a great day!

    In the meantime, we are here for a purpose.

    Colossians 4:5-6:

    [5] Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.
    [6] Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

  77. So many people miss that the seed remains in three of the four soils and “springs up” in three of the four. Only in the first soil does the Devil remove the word and this so that they not believe (spring up). In other words the first soil is categorically different from the other three. How people take this passage as well as how they take Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8 tells a lot about how they read scripture.

    People also fail to recognize that nobody has endured to “the end” spoken of in Matt 24 because that “end” has not yet come. Those who twist Matt 10 and 24 into a test of “true” faith do so by denying the historic and geographic context of those passages in the name of unifying the biblical covenants into one theological covenant and the peoples of God into one body. They often accuse those of us who make the biblical distinction between Israel as a nation and the Church as the body of Christ to be teaching two ways of salvation under two convents. This is of course a straw man.

    There are people who take “endure” in Matt 24 to be teaching a works salvation for tribulation saints but these people miss the fact that “saved” in context does not mean justified but rather delivered from the very men who seek to kill them i.e. as the disciples were in Matt 10 —saved physically.

    Because of theological inferences the “ologies” get skewed from what the text plainly says. A person’s ecclesiology will affect their protology which will affect their eschatology which will affect their soteriology etc. More often than not, when in conversation with a LSer, I find that our disagreement is not solely about grace and faith but about beginnings and endings.

    Like the Pharisees of the second Temple, who clung to the Mishnah and oral traditions to define the legal details of what r-e-s-t meant, today’s LSers also rely on uninspired literature and lectures from PHDs to define the legal details of what b-e-l-i-e-v-e means. And countless many of them use T-U-L-I-P as the starting point.

  78. John. I want the rapture to come so badly. Don’t want us to be in these sinful bodies anymore. I want my glorified body. Away from this wretched planet.

We appreciate you. Please leave a reply & subscribe to our Web site and comments using check boxes below,

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s