The Gospel According to Internet Comments

The false gospels that pervade our churches are reflected in comments that show up in response to articles on the internet. Whether the subject is moral, political, or religious, “defenders of the faith” can be counted on to respond with their versions of how people can receive eternal life.  I have rarely seen anyone who gets it right.

Following are some examples that I have garnered over the past few months. The comments are in italics, and my responses are in bold:

Jesus Christ, the Son of God loves you! As a matter of fact He loved you soooo much that He came to Earth and lived a sinless life and died on the Cross for your sins and if you Repent of your sins and accept Him as Lord and Savior, then you will be saved. Jesus Christ loves you! 🙂

 My comment: Repenting of your sins is not a requirement for eternal life.

…I have a changed life and heart after turning my life over to the god of the universe. I struggled for 20 years to obtain these changes to no avail. His word did the work that I could not. If you really want proof I can tell you how to obtain it, but you have to really be serious. If you are joking around it won’t work. If you really want to know and if God is real and He proves it to you will you give him the rest of your life? Will you make Him your God? If you are serious, God says that when you seek him with all of your heart you will find him. You must be willing to give up everything. If you are willing He will answer you. The God I serve cannot lie. Willing to take me up on it? I will lead you every step of the way.

My comment: We are not saved by giving God our lives. We are saved by believing that Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, died for our sins, was buried, and was raised from the dead.

 It is also clear that there are those who don’t like rules, don’t want to be judged, and want unconditional forgiveness. Jesus didn’t say there wouldn’t be any rules. Jesus said “if you love me, keep my commandments.” So I can understand why some would want to call me a hypocrite for pointing to the commandments. Because it causes people examine their own faults. But the bigger picture here is that Jesus paid the price for sin. He didn’t take away the rules, but He paid the ransom for breaking them if we abandon our lawlessness and follow Him. To all sinners, there is forgiveness, but it wad bought with a price, and we must repent of our sins, abandon them and walk in the light. We can’t have it both ways. We can’t serve two masters. We can’t live in sin and live for God. True Love is Jesus dying on the cross for you while you were yet an enemy of God and extending peace to you if you will surrender your life to Him and follow Him and deny yourself.

My comment: This is full of errors. We are not saved by surrendering our lives to Christ, nor are Christians under the law.

 doesn’t matter if the muslims love and follow doesn’t matter if ISIS loves and follows Jesus or angels.if either group is not saved and have not repented for their sins all of the above groups are lost in eternal hellfire.without accepting JESUS as LORD and savior NO ONE can be saved according to the bible which IS GODS is simple really,do you believe Jesus is the son of GOD and do you believe he rose from the dead for the remittance of sins? just pray and ask Jesus to come into your heart and save you and forgive you of your sins and GOD promises in his word you WILL be saved.this is the ONLY way to heaven.see Romans 10:9,10,11,12

 My comment: We do not have to repent of sins to receive the free gift of eternal life. Jesus is Lord – we cannot make Him Lord.


The Bible says that we are saved by grace, through faith in Christ

Ephesians 2:8-9:

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If you are a “defender of the faith”, but have never received eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, click here:  The Real Story

376 responses to “The Gospel According to Internet Comments

  1. This article sadden my heart. I think of all the people in this article, the people who knock on my door or met on the street. All those famous pastors who ask for a commitments or pray for repentance (not knowing that repentance was already give to the Gentiles Acts 11:18). The only evidence I have is my belief in the death, burial, and resurrection.. In three days… All according to the scriptures 1 Cor 15: 1-4. It is so simple to just believe the word of God.

    Christ crucified

  2. Interesting post.

    I just finished going through the 55 verses on Repent,Repentance and Repented with much help from Ron Shea’s old clear gospel website.


    I found it very helpful to go through each verse and note the Subject, Object and Consequence of Repentance/Lack of Repentance.

    Acts 11:18 is amazing as it shows (as does Hebrews 12:14-17) that repentance really is simply a change of mind. Nothing to do with turning from sin. God granted the Gentiles (Cornelius in this instance) the opportunity to change their mind and exercise faith in the Savior.

    My eyes are so much more open to the false ‘repent of your sins’ to be saved message.

    (Can’t bring myself to call it a gospel as it ain’t good news).

  3. beholdason, that’s a great reference.

    If one really believes eternal life is the gift of God, then there is absolutely no way that “turning from sins” or “repenting of sines” could be required in order to receive eternal life. Otherwise, eternal life would no longer be a gift.

  4. beholdason, that’s a great reference.

    If one really believes eternal life is the gift of God, then there is absolutely no way that “turning from sins” or “repenting of sines” could be required in order to receive eternal life. Otherwise, eternal life would no longer be a gift.

  5. I recently wrote to a ministry leader as follows (I have removed some identifiers, for now):

    Dear Sir:

    I have a question, but must first introduce myself. I am a veteran of some 23 [evangelistic] events. I was saved when a fifteen year old, at an informal Bible study at someone’s house, where the gospel was made clear to me, in January, 1970.

    Since then, I have graduated from a Bible college with a BA, taught for a dozen or more years in Christian schools, seven years in a Bible college, pastored a church for two and a half years, and am currently again teaching and serving as registrar in a Bible college.

    In my local church I serve as an adult Sunday school teacher, and was recently elected to the controlling board (here they are called “Elders”.)

    My wife is also a veteran of some ten [evangelistic] events. We last December brought another college staff member, his wife, and three college students, to the Jacksonville, FL [weekend evangelistic event]. All had a blessed time. This past weekend, I brought again another staff member, and the same three students, to the [one-day evangelistic event] in Perry GA. Again, the Lord blessed.

    Sunday I was chatting with a biker in our church, and remarked that he and I would have to go to a[n evangelistic] ministry event together. He replied, “[That ministry]? I won’t go with them. I looked up their doctrine – they teach works for salvation.”

    I just reviewed (again) the ministry doctrinal statement – and am assured that “works for salvation” is not the official position if the [evangelistic] ministry. So I had to think about where my friend got this idea.

    I have come to the conclusion that it is in the invitation portion of the [ministry] gospel tract.

    It is my habit, when using that tract, to go to the inside fold after the fourth Bible verse (John 14:6), because in my view, Revelation 3:20 has nothing to do with lost people – Jesus is seeking fellowship with church folks who have shut him out (the training video for the gospel tract acknowledges this, also); and Romans 10:9 adds the confusing requirement of “confessing with your mouth”, to the otherwise perfectly clear “believe” of John 3:16.

    Once inside, I am happy to go through the first three questions and answers, because they are a reiteration of the meat of the gospel just presented.

    But I skip right to the prayer, from there – because the text below those questions adds in several apparently ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS on the person who is coming to the Savior: “Do you want to invite Jesus into your heart and life right now?” That phrase may be well-meant – but it is NOT Biblical. It is just NOT in the Bible!

    So I go to the prayer – and teach through it – and right after “I believe you rose from the dead”, I stop, and say, “According to John 3:16 – let’s look back there – WHAT JUST HAPPENED?”

    If they are with me, as they usually are, they will acknowledge – the one praying SHALL NOT PERISH, BUT HAS ETERNAL LIFE. Then I usually say, the rest of the things in this prayer are good, good to pray, after you know you have eternal life. But do you want to pray this with me right now? And I lead them through the first half of the prayer.

    The other phrases in the prayer: “Receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior; TURN FROM MY WAY, FOLLOW AND trust Him as my LORD and Savior…make me a new person.” “Make me the person you want me to be…” — these phrases are a confusing mixture of some elements of salvation (believe, receive the Savior), and some elements of LIVING THE CHRISTIAN LIFE.

    I believe it is confusing and foolish to ask a lost person to sign up for any of the elements of the Christian life, before he has believed in the Savior. I believe it is VITAL that we not put any burden upon the lost man, who is near salvation, more than what Jesus put on the lost person (John 1:12; John 3:16; John 6:47). I am with Paul (Eph. 2:8,9; Titus 3:5), and John (1 John 5:13).

    I hope you know that it is with a humble spirit that I put this before you. I do not want to criticize. I want to be able to invite and involve more new [workers] in the [evangelistic] ministry. But when my friend expressed the view,”They teach works for salvation”, I thought I should first think it through, and then try to present it to you.

    If you wish, I invite your consideration, and conversation on this matter. I think it is of the highest importance.


    Bob Gilbert”

  6. Where in the Bible does it say we must ‘pray’, alongside believing?

    Do we really need to encourage people to do this extra step?

    I ask sincerely.

    Believing is all that is required. Why add steps?

  7. beholdason, I agree completely about the prayer. I see no need to ceremonialize believing.

    I don’t see it with Cornelius, I don’t see it with Martha, I don’t see it with the woman at the well.

  8. My gospel presentation just got simpler. 🙂

    Ta John.

    God is so good.

  9. Here is another great internet comment:

    Only Pope Francis can answer that question. Only he knows what HE believes. Now if you ask me, my humble opinion is that if you lead a good life in a truly judeo-christian framework, yes they should go to heaven. BUT… I’m not Pope Francis, I am not a bishop, I’m not even a priest. Just a plain ole guy aspiring to be a good guy doing good.

    My comment: This was in response to the question: “Does the Pope believe that Baptists can also go to heaven?” Leading a “good life” has no bearing on whether or not someone goes to heaven.

  10. Bob, I’m a little confused. Your biker friend sees some works of inviting Jesus into your heart and life, and confessing with the mouth, and yet you are still using the tract, just skipping over those things?

    Just trying to clarify what you said here. I had some thoughts, but not sure if you mean the ministry adds some of these things, or the tract itself does. If the tract, can’t you use one of Yankees? If the ministry, can’t you go to them and speak to them about the absolute importance of the clarity of the gospel?

    Until I know what you mean I don’t want to say too much, but I have some thoughts. In Christ, Holly

  11. John and BeholdaSon, I always include an offer for prayer because it’s talking to God and non-believers generally have some skewed idea on that too. I will use that opportunity to clarify points they may have heard in gospel presentations before, i.e., now that you have believed, you have been given eternal life freely. It’s not by anything you can do, although some people will wrongly tell you things such as turning from sins, or going to a certain church, or promising to do better, etc., but this is not the case. He asks that we believe on Him, so now you can know you have eternal life.

    I’ll say, some tell you to pray to ask Jesus into your heart, but when you believe, the Lord has come to live in your heart by your faith, it’s a result of you believing (Rom 8:9; Eph 3:17), and you are baptized and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. You will never lose your salvation.

    I talk to them about the importance of spending time with Him and what it’s like to talk to Him. And then I’ll ask them if they’d like me to pray for them, or if they’d like to just thank Him for His free gift.

    I tell them usually to start in the gospel of John and go from there. Those are just some ideas. My brother-in-law when I led him to the Lord, we were driving down the road after 3 days of in-depth speaking to him regarding the errors of the RC church according to the Word of God. He is mentally handicapped, and has a simple but intuitive mind, a gentle giant. He understood and told me he wanted to be a new man. As I was driving, I told him again the clear gospel and made sure he understood what Jesus had done on his behalf. After I questioned him to see if he believed the gospel and he said he did, I asked if he would like to talk to the Lord about it. Since he has only known and rehearsed repetitive prayers, I asked if he wanted to pray some things, which I can’t remember, but mostly thanking God for what He had done, for saving Him, for giving Him eternal life. This six foot four giant began to sob, and I began to weep and I missed my turn completely as we were miles pass the turn off before I recognized it. I suppose that’s not the optimum place to be crying and weeping, (I prayed with my eyes open don’t worry!) 🙂

    Anyways, Bobby Ray, my ‘little’ brother is one of the saints now, and not one of the RC saints ❤

    Love in Christ to you both. Nite.

  12. and you know what I love most about this story Holly?

    The fact that this six foot giant sobbed as he thanked the Lord. I was exactly the same.

    No Paul Washer style preaching required. Some of us have a good cry, some of us don’t.

  13. Holly, beautiful story about your “gentle giant” believing the Gospel!

  14. BeholdaSon – I didn’t cry, I was swinging on my swingset alone, knowing that Jesus loved me, that He died for my sin, and I believed. The thing was when I went to my mom, she led me in a prayer and for many years I kept re-praying the prayer thinking I hadn’t been sincere enough, and thinking I hadn’t been sorry enough etc.

    I was so happy to really have someone make it to clear me, what I had known before tradition corrupted my thinking through the subtilty of the enemy. That all I had to do was believe and I was saved. What good news, so many lost years, much my fault, but I am angered in so many ways at those lost years, if I had but known.

  15. John John, that gentle giant is 6’4″ and weights over 300 lbs. My husband was not that tall nor large, but big and tall for a Mexican. My dear brother-in-law is special, and the Lord knows it. He has loved coming to our house for years, and it has been difficult, especially when I was caring for my husband, but I am so glad I did. Because he tried to fight with me a little on the Catholicism, and I told him to hush and hear me for a change because he knew I loved him, and I had never forced him to do anything, so just hear me out. And I taught him the Word. For days we talked about the Word, and I’d read it to him, explain it, and then contrast it at times to the Catholic teachings, then reinforce it with the Word. I had a dental surgery to go too, and it was a three hour one. No one to drive me, and the drive up was over an hour. So, we had a nice long talk up there. And I wasn’t put under, but afterwards just to collect myself, I got him a haircut (he loves to go for those kinds of things), then took him over to subway to get him a sandwich. Then we got in the car, and that’s when he told me that he wanted to be a new man. I still weep thinking of it, since my husband will be so happy to see him when he joins him some day. His sister is the only sibling left, his mom and dad are gone, so she caregives for him to a certain extent, he is capable of most anything, except needs driven to doctors, or medicines ordered. He and sister did not get along at that time, and when he went back, I got him an audio Bible. (He can’t read). I told him to listen to every day, and to pray for his sister when he felt she was being unkind or grumpy. (He’d put it a little more strongly). He’d complain to me a lot, and I told him, he’d do better if he told the Lord his problems rather than another person, and to keep telling Him. They get along great to this day. He came to know the Lord 2 years after his brother, my husband went to be with the Lord. My father-in-law I believe placed his trust in the Lord before he died, my parents went over to speak with him (he was in California). My mother-in-law, I am not sure, but she stayed with us a month (was going into early dementia) and she slept with my daughters who assailed her nightly 🙂 So, I pray so. She didn’t like me much, but I loved her, and sure hope she believed on Him.

    May we never stop praying, and may God be glorified in it.

  16. Bob Gilbert – by the way, I just want you to know, I sincerely want to know what you are asking, because I sure think it’s an important subject and want to share some ideas with you, and you certainly seem willing.

  17. Holly/John, It’s becoming more and more clear to me how “Believing” is simply not enough for many people.

    Just gotta do more. (is the mentality).

    I’ve been reading through 1 John and Hebrews 6 this morning. I’m wondering if there’s a possibility of proposing topics (relating to salvation/LS issues) based on difficult texts we’re trying to figure out?

    I’ve found the comments of many believers so helpful, in addition to the actual posts themselves.

    Whilst the difficult verses link on this website is helpful, it is limited in the sense that it actually leaves me with further questions that I cannot have answered without using the internet (hardly reliable) to find answers.

    Any suggestions?

  18. Welcome Bob Gilbert
    for me personally what i have done is seek and study the Truth of the Gospel and Proclaim it.
    A properly articulated Gospel presentation is the one we should all strive for. It is of the utmost importance . There is a wealth of information here on expreacherman. one of the most clear , calm presentations of the gospel is done by Tom Cucuzza

  19. Beholdason, I’m open to suggestions for topics.

    However, I like to stick with very clear verses on the gospel.

  20. Something I’m ‘working through’ at the moment is the difficult verses in relation to ‘falling away’ and eternal security.

    I often find great messages about clear passages but they often won’t touch on the difficult passages which often get misinterpreted to justify loss of salvation or false profession type teaching.

    In my mind it’s great if the clear passages are presented, and then followed up by ‘commonly misinterpreted passages’ relating to the same topic. So it’s all together and there’s no room left to say, “Well, what about this verse or that passage” etc.

    If you know what I mean. I’m listening to Ralph Arnold now on Heb 6. I’m just wondering if anyone has done a sermon or if there’s a post on these issues where all the verses are covered in one hit?

    (maybe I’m just being a bit greedy here) – hehe

  21. Beholdason, I know what you mean, and you are not being greedy.

    Jack and I had talked about trying to do something comprehensive, but agreed that there is no limit to passages that works salvationists would point to that they think contradict the clear doctrines of grace, eternal security, or assurance.

    If it’s not in in the KJV, they will go to different translations. If it’s not in scripture, they’ll go outside of scripture. We have even had one guy guarantee that the thief on the cross would have done a lifetime of good works, had he been afforded the opportunity.

    Also, there are various interpretations of certain passages within the grace community.

    Tom Cucuzza did a comprehensive study of Hebrews within the last year or two. I believe it is still archived.

  22. My friend and I have been contacting pastors from various denominations including Baptist, Pentacostal, Church of Christ, Anglican, Brethren, Presbyterian etc by phone in our ‘city of churches’ Adelaide, South Australia and asking them how they defined ‘repentance’ and where they stood on the Gospel and salvation. Do they believe eternal security /’OSAS’ once saved always saved or can a believer lose their salvation if they fall into grievous sin or turn their back to God? We got varied replies ranging from ‘turning from your sins’ as a requirement for salvation and others telling us that believers can lose salvation if they don’t persevere in faith and obedience. Some from Baptist denomination told us that if a person claiming to be a Christian doesn’t give ‘evidence’ in their works, it is possible that person was never saved.
    Apart from one or two out of the 20+ pastors we have spoken to so far, nearly all of them gave LS answers. Some got quite angry and told me that I am looking for a ‘theological debate’..!!
    Not wanting to lose a God-given opportunity, we gave them the clear, simple Gospel of Grace of Christ as we finished the phone calls and prayed that the Lord will open their eyes to the truth of His Word.
    One woman from our former church sent me a ‘stinging’ email back to me today after I wrote to her that those who believe/teach that you can lose your salvation are to some degree trusting in their ‘works’ for salvation and not Christ alone and that it is an accursed mixture of ‘grace+works’ .She got quite upset with me as I said that this is a serious matter of heaven/hell, eternal life/death and we need to get it right before we leave this earth. It is a lonely road for those of us who understand the issues which is why I keep coming back to Expreacherman to get some much needed encouragement after getting spiritually assaulted by other ‘Christians’.

  23. We run up against many folk (including my pastor) that say one must repent of sin to be saved – we have written a tract to try to explain biblical repentance

    Yes it is if you have the correct Biblical definition of the word “repentance.” In the Holy Bible, the word repentance comes from the Greek word “metanois,” which simply means “to change your mind.”

    “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Mark 16:15. Did Jesus tell any of His disciples to go out into all the world and get people to repent of sin as a prerequisite for salvation? No. He was very clear when He spoke of the “only one” requirement for salvation. He that believeth… shall be saved…believeth not…damned. Salvation is predicated on our belief in Christ, not on repentance.

    A lot of well-meaning people emphasise that a person needs to repent of sin in order to be saved. This is not what the Bible teaches. Repenting of sin in order to get saved is a self-based works related salvation and is not what the Bible teaches.

    “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9. The part of this verse that is most neglected to be applied to our salvation is; “and that not of yourselves.” Our Lord Jesus Christ is our One and only Saviour; we cannot be saved by our own personal repentance of sin or of our own good deeds or works.

    To have to repent of our sin in order to be saved is to try to obtain salvation by our own self-works-based repentance, and that is to try to gain salvation by our own works. Ephesians tells us, “Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Our Lord Jesus Christ saved us at the cross long before we ever repented. We only truly repent of sin after we truly believe; and this is only done in response to what our Lord Jesus has already done for us.

    However, our Lord Jesus stated that there is a work that we need to do in order to be saved, and this work is “not of ourselves, nor of our own works.” This work also indirectly includes the correct definition of the word “repentance,” and that is “to change our mind.”

    In the following verses we find a multitude of people following Jesus who were very much works orientated when it came to their understanding of how to please God. They questioned our Lord Jesus as to what they had to do in the way of works to be accepted by God. “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:29. Believe on Him who God hath sent.
    The work of God that saves us and is not of ourselves, nor of our own works, “is to believe on Him whom He hath sent.” This is both the gift of God and the work of God, and indirectly includes the fact that we have to “change our mind” to be able to accept what our Lord Jesus is saying concerning the kind of work that we need to do to in order to be saved.

    People must first experience a “change of mind” (i.e. “repent”) to even consider God’s truth. It is in accepting this fact that enables us to “believe on Him who He hath sent.”

    “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” Acts 10:43 Jesus said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” John 6:4

    As soon as you truly believed, God immediately justified you for salvation and eternal life. This means that you can now know that by continuing to believe in our Lord Jesus for your salvation and eternal life, you will escape the fire of hell and eternal damnation.

    “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:15-16

    “And by him (our Lord Jesus) all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the Law of Moses.” Acts 13:39

    So, there is a work that must be done in order to be saved, and this work is not our own work, it is the work of God, and because it is the work of God, it is not of ourselves so that we cannot boast about it. It is also not of our own works because it is the gift of God to grant repentance unto us.

    “When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.” Acts 11:18

    No one can repent and come to God unless God draws us. Jesus said; “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” John 6:44. Acts 5:31 and 11:18 tells us that repentance is something God gives…it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God’s longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).

    So we get saved by doing the work of God for our salvation, which is neither of ourselves nor of our own works, and that is “by believing on Him who He hath sent.”

  24. beholdason,

    Heb 6 is actually an eternal security passage.

    Hebrews 6

    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame (Heb 6:4-6)

    Hebrews 6:4-6 is one of the passages that are used by “religion” to say one can lose their salvation. This is a load of dung! Yes, Paul used the word dung too in the bible. We have clearly shown that eternal security is prevalent in the scriptures (see previous chapter). We will use 2 Timothy to show that even if a believer loses his faith, they are still saved. Really? Yes really!!!! Then we will look at Hebrews 6:4-6.

    The bible says once one believes/trusts the gospel; they are sealed. This is important in relating to 2 Timothy as the writer uses the word “seal” in that passage…

    – Eph 1:13 – In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise
    – Eph 4:30 – And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption
    – 2 Cor 1:21-22 – Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;22 Who HATH ALSO SEALED US, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts

    LETS GO TO 2 TIMOTHY – note – Timothy is a letter written from Paul to Timothy so the “WE” is referring to BELIEVERS.

    – 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
    12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
    13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    Jesus CANT deny himself. We have seen, Jesus promised not to lose one and that nothing will pluck us out of His hand. Again, Jesus CANT deny himself. He can’t make promises He doesn’t intend to keep. Let us keep reading.

    – 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
    – 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and OVERTHROW the FAITH of some.

    We see that some had their faith overthrown. This MEANS that they believed. Let’s go to the next verse. The first word is NEVERTHELESS. This is the key. The word “nevertheless” means “in spite of”. So some had their faith overthrown…NEVERTHELESS….or…..”in spite of this”….

    – 19 NEVERTHELESS the foundation of God standeth sure, having THIS SEAL, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity

    Did you catch it? They were STILL SEALED despite their faith being overthrown.
    – read next verses to explain “depart from iniquity”. YES a believer should depart from iniquity. One reason is to build rewards of gold and silver and NOT wood hay and stubble; which will be burned at the Judgment Seat of Christ. (1 Cor 3:10-15).

    – Heb 11:6 – But WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him

    2 Timothy SUMMARY – these people whose faith were overthrown were producing NOTHING. Their faith was gone!!! They had no more faith THUS it is impossible to please God (produce). Were they saved? YES – NEVERTHELESS, having THIS SEAL, the Lord knoweth them that are HIS

    The bible CANNOT contradict itself. It can’t say that if a person loses faith they are still sealed; THEN say they lost their salvation in another.
    So let’s go back to Hebrews 6:4-6. It reads…
    -4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    The first point that needs to be made is this; this passage is talking about saved people. See the phrases used such as: tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted the word of God. These are definitely saved people. So we have saved people who, IF they were to “fall away”, it is impossible to renew them AGAIN unto repentance.

    STOP for just a second. Where in this passage does it read one lost their salvation? Where’s the example of someone whose faith was overthrown (2 Tim gave an example)? You won’t find it. Why? It is not there. People ASSUME they lost their salvation. All it reads is “it is impossible to renew them AGAIN”. This is a true statement. How? It is quite simple actually. You can’t renew AGAIN something that is still renewed; or, as 2 Timothy reads “still sealed”. Heb 6:4-6 is actually an eternal security passage. IF Jesus sacrifice was NOT good enough the first time, he would have to come back down here and get crucified again (or afresh). This is what would put Him to an open shame. Look at these other passages in Hebrews.

    -Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had BY HIMSELF purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high
    -Heb 12:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for ALL.
    -Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered ONE SACRIFICE for sins FOREVER, sat down on the right hand of God;

    ONE sacrifice, ONE time for ALL the sins of the world. Hebrews 6 doesn’t seem so scary anymore does it! Even IF your faith is overthrown you are still sealed. It is IMPOSSIBLE to renew you AGAIN. Jesus promised to never lose you and that nothing will be plucked out of His hand or the Fathers hand. Again, it is impossible for a child of God to be renewed AGAIN. Once you are His child, you are always His child.

  25. Alice, it is great that you are discussing the clear gospel with people from these various groups. As you have noted, the most stringent objections will come from those most vested in some other approach to salvation.

  26. Murray, it’s great to hear from you again. There is a lot of truth in your comment, particularly that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ.

    However, there are a couple of things that you said, on which we have different positions.

    You said: As soon as you truly believed, God immediately justified you for salvation and eternal life. This means that you can now know that by continuing to believe in our Lord Jesus for your salvation and eternal life, you will escape the fire of hell and eternal damnation.

    My comment: A believer does not have to continue to believe in our Lord Jesus in order to be saved. Once someone has believed, he is eternally secure, even if his faith does not endure.

    You may recall that we discussed this in some comments under another thread. You will find those comments linked below:

    You said: John 6:44. Acts 5:31 and 11:18 tells us that repentance is something God gives…it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God’s longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).

    My comment: God draws all men to Him, and desires that all men be saved. God grants repentance to gentiles (Acts 11:18) in the sense that eternal life is available to them the same way that it is to the Jews – through faith in Christ.

    God does give lost people the ability to repent. However, individual repentance unto salvation is not granted by God. It is the responsibility of the creature, not his Creator.

    Acts 17:30: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    God would not command people to do something that He does for them.

  27. Hey Preston, thanks for sharing that.

    I kept waking up last night with Hebrews 6 in my head so I just had to spend about an hour this morning seriously looking at it.

    I copied and pasted Hebrews 5:12-6:20 onto a word doc and typed some notes underneath every few passages as I felt so led.

    What I noticed is that from verse 5:12-6:3 it’s talking about the lack of spiritual growth of the believers. They were babes when really they should have been teachers.

    When we get to 6:4-6 which says:

    “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame”.

    Considering the verses preceding 6:4-6, I am left to wonder whether what it is saying is something a little like this (my understanding of 5:12-6:8:

    If you babes in the word do not move on from the “first principles of the oracles of God”… and the “laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment which God permitting we will do… IF you should fall away (due to not maturing), it is impossible for you to repent again (change your mind about God) because it puts Christ back on the cross again. The works that you do will be burned.

    (ref:- 1 Cor 3:10-15 “15: If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.)

    I don’t really see that what it is saying that it is impossible to renew someone again unto a change of mind because it is unnecessary (due to Christ having only needed to die ONCE for all).

    But rather, I am currently thinking that this passage is saying that it is impossible for a person who “falls away” (the person being a former believer – eternally secure who has not matured and moved on from the first principles listed)…

    it is not possible for this apostate Christian to “be renewed AGAIN unto a change of mind” in the sense that they have rejected the truth and fallen away from the faith (so to speak). In other words, they no longer walk with the Lord, they’re carnal… they look, act and speak like an unbeliever.

    Their “end is to be burned” (not them, but their works). It is impossible for these people to come back to a right relationship with the Lord (renewed again unto a change of mind – repentance).

    That’s what I’m seeing from the text at the moment.

    Can you see how I come to this conclusion?

    – Not sure if it’s right, but that’s what I’m seeing it as at the moment.

    Pray for me please 🙂

  28. Some other verses which refer to “falling away”. Interesting when you consider these verses in light of the “falling away” of the believers in Hebrews.

    Luke 8:13

    They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

    (consider Luke 8:6)

    And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

    2 Peter 3:17

    Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being LED AWAY with the error of the wicked, FALL from your own stedfastness.

    Those who fall away in Luke 8:6 + 13 seem to do so because they have no root and lack moisture. (figure that one out haha). Those in 2 Peter 3:17 are led away with the error of the wicked and cease from being stedfast.

  29. ALICE — I am familiar with you of the “spiritual assault by other ‘Christians’”. Trouble is as we know, some may not know Him. So I try to keep Col 4:5-6 in mind as I believe you do, and try to share the gospel, or get them to share what the gospel is. Some refuse, or give an accursed gospel. It still gives us an opportunity to share with them.

    Some are sheep that protect the wolves and nip and baaaa about ‘chewing the meat and spitting out the bones’, or ‘nobody’s perfect’, but we know the most important thing is the gospel, so we do our best to continue to warn, and win souls to Christ with the good news. There are many out there with puffed up and feigned words, deceitfully mishandling His Word, preaching another gospel. They are the deceivers, and there are many deceived too. They will be judged in the end if they do not believe themselves. Frightening.

    God bless your efforts, and Satan always seems to kick up a bigger fuss when we are sharing the clear gospel. Praying for the deceived sheep to come to their senses and get out of bondage.

  30. Johninnc and Holly, thank you for your encouraging comments, it is SO good to have fellowship with like-minded believers. Today I received another email from the same woman telling me that while she appreciates my passion & zeal for the truth, contending for the faith and being a Berean etc but I ‘shouldn’t tie myself up in knots no matter how well-intended’..!! She apologised for being curt with me earlier but I don’t think she understands Lordship Salvation no matter how clearly I explained. Anyway, I will leave her in God’s hands.

  31. Murray – I agree with John’s response to you. Right now I’m reminded of Jesus many encouragements that His disciples continue to believe (have faith) because He knew what they would be facing. But it wasn’t not speaking for them to continue to believe that they might have eternal life. They already were pronounced clean by Jesus so it couldn’t have been that. Believing the gospel, at that moment we are indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit, baptized into the body.

    It seems you believe somehow that faith and repentance are gifts (you said it was a work of God), which is what Calvinism teaches in total inability. That the person needs ‘gifted’ with faith and repentance, by being pre-regenerated before they can believe. Is this where you are coming from?

  32. Alice, hang in there!

    Many people will try to explain away the differences between salvation by grace and salvation by grace plus works, as if they are really the same thing. In essence, they are trying to “harmonize” the two, so that we can all “get along.”

    The most obvious way to “harmonize” salvation by grace with salvation by grace plus works is through “back-door” Lordship “salvation.” This is the notion that good works will automatically accompany faith in Christ.

    We must beware of this heresy. If we concede that good works WILL accompany faith in Christ, we are conceding that good works MUST accompany faith in Christ. Then, we are back to salvation by works.

  33. beholdason,

    you could very well be correct. I don’t claim omniscience.

    assuming I understood your comment correctly,

    if one is not “rooted” well and they fall away, God might “blind” them so to speak—talking about “fellowship” and they can never be “renewed” again.

    however, my first thought is, “what about the prodigal son”?

    in others words, if a child of God “falls away” God will never accept the fellowship with His Child until he physically dies?

    not sure I can “jump on that bandwagon yet”. 🙂

    I do agree we CAN be out of fellowship with God (1 john), but we “confess’ our sins to restore it.

    If others would like to jump in and attempt to convince me, I would not mind at all. a year or two ago, I had not decided whether the “lukewarm” church was saved or out of fellowship. I could see both. one day John typed one simple sentence, “Can an unbeliever be “lukewarm”? From that I determined, yep, they were out of fellowship.

    BTW, I love how you went back a chapter and forward a bit to look at context.

  34. Holly, Murray responded to your comment, but I chose not to post his reply.

    He is continuing to assert, with increasing insistence, that perseverance in belief and faith are essential for salvation, and that salvation is conditional upon those things.

    This is a perfect example of how people pushing false doctrine operate.

    Step 1. He asked a seemingly innocuous question on January 20, which we answered.
    Step 2. He read our responses.
    Step 3. He lay low for six weeks.
    Step 4. He made a very long-winded post with some truth, but with his heretical denial of eternal security imbedded deeply within.
    Step 5. He read our responses.
    Step 6. He came back with a full-throated proclamation of his heretical doctrine.

  35. I would have a ton of questions for him.

    number 1 on the list…..

    how does he explain 2 Timothy 2 which illustrates people who had their faith “overthrown” but were still sealed?

  36. Preston, I sent you the comment by e-mail.

    Murray did not come here to learn. He came here to preach false doctrine.

  37. Excellent job Johninc in rightly dividing the word of truth and addressing Murray’s apparent false position theologically. A thank you also for protecting the sheep who participate in this blog from the damaging and confusing doctrine of calvinism.

    With my heart I pray that Murray sincerely acknowledges the source of his false doctrine and trusts in Christ alone to save him – if he hasn’t already. If he has, then that he will abandon and flee from the perverted tenants he holds to and embrace the truth of Grace so clearly held out in Scripture when one studies the WHOLE Bible, and not just select passages which have been gleaned and applied inappropriately.

  38. it appears to be English in the first, second and third person.

    I Believe
    thou believest
    he believeth

    it depends on in which “person” the passage is being presented.

    1st person,
    Acts 8:37b – I believe that Jesus is the Son of God

    2nd person
    “i will raise him up the last day……believist thou this”
    ” thou believist there is one God….

    3rd person
    ” he that believeth in me hath…..
    ” he that believeth in me, though he were dead……

    its just grammer of the day.

  39. I found another great example of false doctrine touching on salvation – salvation by keeping the 10 commandments:

    …As you can see very few people put God 1st in there daily activities and practice the 10 commandments with humility and love. mankind has lost its way today because Satan has stepped into influence their lives in greater fashion people forget Pray and depend on Jesus for help in every present moment. People today do not confess there sins and thing it’s ok. Satin loves that approach that man is taking because millions of souls go to hell every day because of man’s human reasoning. No human reasoning can compromise Gods Ten Commandments. this is the truth with out the Ten Commandments you cannot get to heaven without them. All praise be to Jesus Christ the Son of God the savior of the world who died for our sins and is in love with you every second you heart beats

  40. Hey Preston!

    You wrote: “however, my first thought is, “what about the prodigal son”?
    In others words, if a child of God “falls away” God will never accept the fellowship with His Child until he physically dies?

    not sure I can “jump on that bandwagon yet”. 🙂

    I do agree we CAN be out of fellowship with God (1 john), but we “confess’ our sins to restore it.”


    – Good point! I guess the question now on my mind is, “Did the prodigal son reject/deny His Father? or simply choose to go down the sin path?” What is noteworthy is that the prodigal son DID change his mind as he remembered what he had “back home”. He was hungry and he knew where to find the goods.

    – Considering Heb 6… I think those who fall away are beyond the prodigal son’s “state” of “falling away”. In other words, I don’t think the Prodigal son “fell away” but simply went into carnal/lukewarm mode. He still knew His Father was His Father. I think the Hebrews 6 people are those who actually deny Christ (as he’s need to be re-crucified). They reject the “first principles” and don’t progress at all.

    I’ve lived for several years like this… sinning in ways I won’t mention and yet all the while still believed God was and is. I even saw friends come to Christ in the midst of my carnality! (God be praised). But I came back eventually and bowed the knee. Now I’m pretty much perfect. (just kidding – haha)

    To be honest, I’m not entirely on “that bandwagon yet either” haha but it’s what I “see” (ooo) in the text and am unsure if it’s correct.

    Gotta look more into this apostasy thing and falling away.

    Are there different states of having your conscience seared?

    I also think of the Romans hedonists whom god “gave up” to do those things we won’t mention.


  41. Johninnc, you hti the nail on the head when you said: ‘Many people will try to explain away the differences between salvation by grace and salvation by grace plus works, as if they are really the same thing. In essence, they are trying to “harmonize” the two, so that we can all “get along.”

    People in churches think that since we agree on the core doctrines of the Bible such as the Deity of Christ, His virgin birth, miracles, prophecies, His substitutionary death on the cross for our sins, redemption through His blood, His bodily resurrection from the dead,, salvation by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone, we are all on the SAME page and therefore nothing to quibble over or divide/separate/avoid and get ‘tied up in knots’ over this issue.
    What they fail to realise is that by subtle addition of ‘works’ to GRACE either by insisting that one has to ‘turn from sin/ repent of sin’ to be saved, (front loading the Gospel) or that we need ‘evidence/ proof of works’ that we are truly saved, (back-loading) they are under an accursed gospel which can NOT save and so it is a difference of heaven and hell. In order to get this understanding we need to be teachable and be willing to be corrected by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. But what I am finding is that most people are comfortable in their false doctrine thinking that they are saved and so not willing to be corrected.

  42. Alice, I have found that a lot of people can’t really tell the difference. Maybe they are saved, and have heard the false gospel substitutes and add-ons for so long that they think they are part of the gospel.

    But, I never assume that. I try to provide a clear gospel presentation. If someone objects to it, and persists in his objections, then I am concerned that he has never understood or believed the gospel.

  43. Hey John, I see “works righteousness” as the default human position. Since everyone’s conversion isn’t “ideal”, with a clear-cut denouement concerning “dead works”, the world/flesh/devil triumvirate OF COURSE aim their flaming arrows at our natural weakness towards DOING.

    “And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”—Galatians 3:12

    This, IMO, is “the way that seems right to a man” because it SOUNDS right. Sinning every hour on the hour does not, contrary to the caricature promoted by LS’ers.

    Satan is AGAINST CHRIST (antichrist), so he will always offer a slander against the goodness of God in Christ, against the steadfastness of His love.

    Concerning whether conversion in this or that case is “real”, I think of all those who were “added” to the early church quite simply. Really, what all did they KNOW (yet)? If we believe our salvation rests on Christ ALONE, we ought not shortchange His supernatural ability to perfect those who come to him in faith which, though “little”, IS saving faith! He doesn’t give up on us in this fight vs. principalities and powers, as we eventually come to KNOW—against all feeling—that “by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (Eph. 2:8-10)

    Everyone here is struggling with these issues because they are SAVED! Unregenerate people don’t want to “walk worthy” before God or want to do GOOD works vs dead ones. They don’t sit around and wonder if they’re saved. That comes from the Spirit. Our MINDS are what have to be renewed and there is a lot of works junk in there, ha!

    Just my thoughts at the moment.

  44. PS. I didn’t mean to imply that confusion “comes from the Spirit” but that Satan can only attempt to confuse in this way those whom the Spirit has enlightened.

  45. john john, just a couple of thoughts on your comments.

    I agree that believers are being transformed by a renewing of their minds (Romans 12:2), and there is a lot of junk in there.

    I grew up believing that Christ died for our sins and was raised from the dead. But, I didn’t really understand what “for our sins” meant until just over four years ago. Up until then, I thought I had to do my part by repenting of sins, and committing and so on. My sputtering attempts to do that usually coincided with me worrying about not being saved. And, they always failed after pretty short intervals. Then I would forget about it for a while, try to think of other things and so on. The light really didn’t come on for me – and I wasn’t saved – until I realized that eternal life was a gift, and not a trade.

    So, I think there might be others out there who aren’t really saved, because they’ve never heard, or understood, the gospel message. That has been the driving force behind my concern for the clarity of the gospel.

    To your point, john john, Tom Cuczza said the following in his sermon entitled “It’s All of Christ”:

    Minutes 3:35-3:52

    We must protect the gospel. Now, what is the gospel? It’s the good news that God sent His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to die on the cross to pay for all of our sins and that He came back from the dead to prove it was done, and that all who would simply put their faith in Christ and Christ alone receive eternal life.

    Minutes 4:07-4:35

    Now, if there is only one plan of salvation, which the Bible says that is true, if there is only one gospel, which the Bible says that is true, then the truth needs to be protected.

    We cannot give false teachers a place – and you’ll notice what he said – not even for an hour. Now, that’s not being mean-spirited, that’s just standing our ground. That’s having the courage to say: “Excuse me, not here. That message is not welcome here.”

    Minutes 4:49-5:34

    There are those who are saved and yet are confused about this issue. And they are -many times – just because they haven’t learned, they haven’t been taught better – they are saying things that aren’t true, but it hasn’t occurred to them that what they are saying is not true. What do we do with them? We teach them. We kindly teach them. We take them alongside and we show them the way of God more perfectly. Alright? There is that ministry. Every man is a ministry. We need to see that.

    However, there are those, though, who are fixed on preaching error and teaching error. And when they are approached with the truth – and we try to make that clear – they say: “That’s not true! I don’t believe that. I believe you’re the one who’s teaching falsehood.”

  46. Tom Cucuzza’s message above is excellent: There is only ONE Gospel that saves and it is the Gospel of Grace. (Things that are different are NOT the same…!!
    I am frustrated that people are NOT seeing the difference between:
    1. Salvation by Grace Alone.
    2. Salvation by Grace + works.
    For example one pastor I spoke to on the phone last week when I asked him how he defined REPENTANCE, he said it means to ‘turn from your sin and turn to God’. But when I explained the clear Gospel of Pure Grace (that Jesus did it ALL and we simply trust in His finished work on the cross to get saved) he said: yes I agree with you…!! NO, we don’t agree…!! He just told me a few minutes ago that we need to turn from sin and turn to God for salvation, and if we don’t persevere in faith and give evidence of works/fruit in life, then we are not saved and now he says he agrees with me…??? The difference is huge… but I can’t get them to see…! Oh Lord, open their eyes….!!

  47. ALice, I agree.

    I think there are FAR MORE real believers in false gospels than false believers in the real gospel.

    Matthew 7:13-14:

    [13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

  48. Hi Guys,
    Just wanting to throw another in the mix, been thinking on this one on the weekend. 2 Thess 2.10 because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Can this ever refer to christians, if they are

    saved then continued in false doctrine, like word of faith. Does god give christians over, if they have been continually warned and they don’t listen, if they are in error. Surely there has to be a consequence in following the false teachers,

    I myself was caught up in false teaching, but looking back i was under a lordship salvation (an accursed gospel)

    iIguess what I am asking is, does god give christians over to a delusion if they are disobedient in helping satan build his kingdom, as i know of many who i think are saved, but are very ecumenical,they don’t think catholic church is not christian, is it that satan is working thru them due to their ignorance and lack of understanding.

    Sorry hope i have made myself clear.

  49. Mary, I think that verse refers to people who have never been believers.

    I’m interested to read what others have to say.

  50. John/Mary,

    I think John is correct. 2 Thes is talking about unbelievers. However, I would take it a step further.

    It is talking about unbelievers during the 70th week of Daniel (or last 7 years). The churhc wuold be raptured before this.

    example – verses 3 and 4 (also see verse 1 for more context)

    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    This is taking about the Abomination of Desolation the both Daniel and Jesus spoke about, which is the “antichrist” sitting in the temple of God proclaiming to be God.

    I have not found any place in the new testament that says God blinds his children. satan can blind us. we can even decieve ourselves (1 John). false prophets (fasle brethren) can come in and deceive us. IF it si there, i have not found it yet.

    I see this passage have a similarity to the Pharoh and the Exodus of Israel from Egyspt. AFTER 5 signs/plagues, Pharoh would not let them go. THEN God “hardened his heart”.

    There will be sooooooo many fulfilled prophesies in the final 7 years (not to mention the rapture of the church), and people STILL wont believe (like pharoh) that God will send them a strong delusion that they WILL believe the lie (that through sign s and wonders, this “son of perdition, is God).
    – pretty much God saying, I have shown you ALL of this in my word and you still dont believe???? Fine, have it your way.

    my two cents.

  51. myself i am pursauded that just as a soul can trust Jesus as their personal saviour and live as a disobeident child of God …a soul can also get caught in doctrinal error and not be obeidient to the word of God. disobiedence is disobidence.
    there is the peace WITH God and the peace OF God. we get peace with God when we trust Jesus as saviour . beliving His death burial and resurection paid my sin debt passed present and future.
    look what happened to Paul in the book of galations he planted that church only to come back to find them bewitched into another gospel.
    i caused myself all kinds of heart aeke and vexation of soul from following my own ways reading scripture following a system of thought. the knowledge of good and evil really has us all messed up need to fix our eyes on Jesus. mankind wants to desperatly drag along the old sinfull nature up to the cross to have it fixed to have some part in salvation like adam and evebwith their fig leaf religion . God says no Jesus paid the price now stop it and be freee to be who you are in Christ Jesus a new creation .

  52. Sorry I wasn’t around the last couple of days, but very happy when you do not allow that stuff to go on Johninnc.

    They act in a fashion similar to the one you described with Murray, sneak in, throw in a couple things here and there, and when you recognize it, go full blown. Happy not to see all that garbage here.

  53. I have just recently become aware of the LS controversy among believers. I spent approximately seven years in the “family-integrated” church (two different ones), a movement started by Doug Phillips of Vision Forum fame. These churches were steeped in reformed theology, and I was always aware of a slight uneasiness within my spirit while attending. The LS doctrine was not preached outright, but rather subtly implied. My husband and I were finally able to put our finger on why we always felt that something wasn’t right – was outside of what we believed and understood about salvation according to God’s word. It is faith alone in Jesus Christ and His finished work.

    As I’ve pondered this often divisive argument within the church, I’ve been reminded of the thief on the cross next to Jesus. He had mere minutes before death claimed him when he recognized and acknowledged Jesus as God. “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Luke 23:42
    And Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43. This man, by his own admission, was being punished justly, and he had no chance to visibly show through the way he lived (repentance, commitment, obedience, and perseverance) that he had changed. This brief yet powerful exchange has always spoken to me of how God can change someone’s eternal destination even as he/she draws their final breath. At any rate, I can’t imagine how the LS camp would respond to this, especially since the words of assurance came from Jesus Himself. But I’m sure they would devise some sort of rebuttal to defend their stance.

    For me, I believe LS terribly negates what Jesus alone has done for me, and therefore is an offense to God. My salvation is in Christ alone. My love for Him causes me to want to obey Him and grow daily in a way that I take on His likeness, the result of being a new creation in Him.

  54. Susannah, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    We have had some very inventive comments from Lordship “salvation” proponents. One went so far as to guarantee that the thief on the cross would have performed a lifetime of good works, had he been given the opportunity.

    And while all Christians are born again, and therefore have become new creatures, the extent to which we are transformed in this lifetime depends on the extent to which we cooperate.

  55. Susannah welcome and thank you for posting
    I thank God to hear you and your husband caught yourselves out of a snare by the Holy Spirit working in you.

    “LS terribly negates what Jesus alone has done for me,”
    Amen that is the snare of works for salvation.
    another thought for negate is the “double bind ”

    “It is a “double-bind” message to combine grace with merit. This message asks a person to do two conflicting things. By definition, grace is God’s unmerited favor, a free gift (eternal life—Rom 6:23). This means that one cannot earn grace because this, would contradict the definition. Thus, when a minister or priest asks someone to do something for the grace of God, he has just presented the individual with an impossible choice. If the individual chooses grace, he cannot do anything for it. Yet, the minister has told him that he must do something. The person cannot win!”
    To see the Apostle Paul’s words about this “double-bind” message read Rom 4:1-25.”

  56. I found another example of false works for salvation theology this morning. Please see below:

    “God is no respecter of persons and he will not discriminate between the immorality of the people in this World. You will all be sent to the same place so don’t be jealous and feel left out. You will be down there right with your master the Devil for eternity in Hell. There is no get out of hell free card. Unless you change your life around, than it’s going to be You and God. And God cannot lose. It doesn’t matter how many people disagree with Him. They will lose and God will be victorious. Have fun while you can.”

    My comment: One cannot earn eternal life by changing his life around. Eternal life is the gift of God through Jesus Chtist our Lord. This writer understands that there is a God to whom we’re accountable. But, he doesn’t show any understanding of how one can have eternal life. He would do well to read Romans 2. Then, he might see that the answer lies not in pointing his finger at the people in Romans 1, but in relying on Christ’s righteousness (Romans 3 and 4).

  57. John,

    I apologize, I had to chuckle. BUT then realized it is very sad.

    he said – There is no get out of hell FREE card

    maybe he should add Romans 5 after he is done with 2,3 and 4.

  58. Preston, I agree completely. I edited this a little, but you are still spot on.


    I KNOW I got you beat. The name I got called by a “religious” Pharisee.


    He called me “a bible thumper”.

    Yep, He told me I was too much of a “bible thumper” and I needed to get AWAY from the bible.

    Ever heard that one yet??? 🙂

  60. Preston, Preston, Preston lol!

    Yes, I am afraid I have you beat on this one too (roflol)….

    One day on Facebook, I had a post going (on my own page), I had made a Bible verse, and was adding other Bible verses along the same vein in separate comments. After a dozen verses (I felt like I was worshipping God and at the same time being revived and strengthened by His Word), a guy came in to chastise by yes calling me a Bible thumper, but continuing with, “Is that all you ever do is quote Bible verses, can’t you speak in normal English”?

    I can still remember this guy’s name (bless Doug Lord). I don’t quite remember, but he asked me a question which had a perfectly suitable answer in the Word (and by the way, this guy said he was a believer), so I said, you know, I have to tell you that this verse has the perfect answer for you and then shared. He did the argggggghhhhhh thing, and left, and went to his own page, and posted a post that another friend came in and asked him, “You can’t possibly be serious are you?”

    His post after our exchange?

    “If all Christ ever did was speak the Word of God to His disciples all the time, they would have been bored to tears…


    Btw, I DID get called a Baptist the other day lol!!!!

  61. I have also been called a ‘Biblidolator’. And mocked for ‘loving the Bible more than God’. I told the one guy that I loved and treasured His Word, it gave me knowledge of the One who bought me with His precious blood.

    But outside of all jest, I am finding people do not know or even recognize the Word if you do not use the reference. And they do not love it. They love to heap up teachers. They do not love His Word….

  62. Johninnc — poor deluded blinded person….

    “Unless YOU change your life around, than it’s going to be You and God. ”

    This poor guy needs to understand Repentance from dead works.

  63. oh man. always the bridesmaid….

    well, at least I am going to heaven when I die.

  64. Preston – I have no doubt since you use the Word of God, you’ll ‘win’ big in one of the name calling events. In fact, next week I hope to publish your one article, just have had a lot going on, so will be interesting to see what might transpire there.

  65. Here is another confused excerpt from a professing Christian:

    “Just because a person say they are one thing doesn’t make it so. What makes it so is following the rules of the creed. In my case the Commandments to the best of my ability. I am not perfect and never claimed to be, but I strive to be and am forgiven of my shortcomings by the grace of God. A person must resist such temptation any other way is an apostate and a anomination to the creed.”

  66. Please do NOT trust Middletown Bible Church ministry, and think they are sound in doctrine. Here is what they say on their website regarding ‘Marks of a true believer”: (notice Not one of those marks asks: HAVE YOU TRUSTED IN CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOUR?)
    1. ______ …believes the Word of God.

    2. ______ …has a hunger for God’s Word.

    3. ______ …prays to his Heavenly Father.

    4. ______ …loves the brethren.

    5. _______ …obeys the Lord (keeps His Word).

    6. ______ …does not continue in sin but lives a righteous life.

    7. ______ …does not enjoy living in sin.

    8. ______ …performs good works.

    9. ______ …confesses Christ before men

  67. Alice, I do not consider George Zeller or Middletown Bible Church to be doctrinally sound on the gospel. They are backdoor LS all the way. Pure poison.

    We had an article about them, with lots of comments, a long time ago. It is called “The Truth LIES Somewhere in Between.” See below:

    Zeller has been in oft-featured columnist at “Grace Family Journal” (which has also featured Sourgeon), and has some of his articles linked to at least one other prominent “grace” site. All that does is confuse people looking for the truth.

  68. Alice, thank you for more thorough info on Zeller, and middletownbible because he speaks on MacArthur and the ‘dangers of reformed theology’, people think he is a good source to go to. I remember going there, and gleaning the Bible verses, but saw that he had part of TULIP missing, and wondered why. Jack filled me in on it.

  69. Following are a couple of more “defenders of the faith” commenting on Kim Kardashian and Kanye West having their 21-month old child baptized:

    Michael: The bishop is doing something against Christian doctrine, when their baby is baptized, he has to be baptized into the faith of both of his parents that were married in a officially sanctioned church through a canonically ordained priest. The baby is expected to live a Christian life according to the faith of his parents. I am not judging non-believers but one cannot baptize babies to Muslim parents that grow up in a Muslim household and become Muslim.

    Jessica: Michael – Wrong. Baptize the child so the Holy Spirit may reside within that baby and may the light of the Creator heal the ignorance of the parents for their own salvation…

    ezrider123: A Christian new born is usually christened within 3 to 4 months after birth. These 2 morons waited 21 months. What’s the reason for the long wait besides stupidity?

    My comment: There is no such thing as a “Christian new born.” The Holy Spirit indwells all believers from the moment of belief. Water baptism has nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit.

    Infant baptism is not biblical.

  70. John – how terribly sad that people haven’t been ‘brought up in the way they should go’, instead, they are stuck in the traditions and philosophies of men. I pray some are pulled from the fire.

  71. Here is another one I found today:

    As the Bible teaches; salvation is for those who DO THE WILL OF GOD. Believing in him in NOT suffice. That is a start but with that belief comes WORKS/ACTIONS to PROVE that we in fact do believe in him and are willing to do as he asks us to do in the scriptures.

    My comment: False gospel of works for salvation. Believing in Him will not suffice? This commenter is calling God a liar.

  72. And another:

    The Anglican/Episcopalian conservatives converted back to the Catholic Church, now we have our nuns back.

    It is now time to declare which side of the spiritual warfare you belong – God’s or satan’s before the final separation of wheat from the tares.

    My comment: The RC and major Protestant denominations have much in common – namely, works for salvation.

  73. John — unreal. Believing in Him will not suffice…?” wow…May the Lord rebuke this person, and keep him from leading others astray.

    As far as the Anglican and Episcopalians, there will be more that will head back to Rome …

  74. Here is one from today:

    The definition of ‘Christianity’ is “0ne who believes in Jesus and follows his teachings”. Unfortunately, most of those who profess to be Christians don’t even begin to follow what he said and did while he was alive. In Matthew 5 it state by Him that the had come and fulfilled the Laws of Moses; and proceed to give a new set of directions for His followers were to use: the ‘Beatitudes’. That means that the Jews were to still continue using and honoring the Ten Commandments, while all the Christians were live their lives using the Beatitudes to live by. How may so-called Christians even know what the ‘Beatitudes’ are; let alone live by them; or see them posted anywhere; like the Ten Commandments are.

    My comment: Being a Christian means that one has believed in Jesus Christ as his Savior. Following Jesus’ teachings is something Christians should do, but doing so will not make someone a Christian, and failing to do so does not mean that someone isn’t a Christian.

    See article linked below for more detail:

    No Christians (including Jews who are believers) are under the law.

    See attached article from Holly for more detail:

  75. This one is a quite a bit more subtle in its error:

    Niick danger? Really? What do you really know? Sounds like your opinions are like noses,everybody has one! That’s NOT knowledge! You deceive yourself! Why should the MOST HIGH expose any more knowledge to you nick? What makes you so “special”? ” without faith it is impossible to please god, for first you MUST believe that HE is and that HE is a rewarder of those who DILIGENTLY seek HIM”. From your post it would appear you have chosen to not follow HIS abovementioned injunction! Mormonism is a cult, but that don’t mean that GOD, the real GOD ain’t out there waiting for a “heartfelt” response from those who truly seek HIM! Wake up, before your window in time had elapsed!

    My comment: What is a “heartfelt” response? This will invariably lead to the “heart faith” versus “intellectual assent” error of the Lordship “salvationists.”

    This next point may be a little controversial:

    I think the concept that the only people who are evangelized are being rewarded for their diligence seems to introduce an element of merit into it. How many people who are hearing the gospel for the first time have heard the “injunction” that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him?

    Was the Apostle Paul diligently seeking HIm on the road to Damascus? Was the Phillipine jailor diligently seeking HIm? The thief on the cross?

  76. Those are all good examples John. Words people use, and they just slip in a few, and they take one Scripture and they seem to forget Christ and Him crucified.

  77. Here’s the latest from an outfit called “Christian Prophecy”, which showed up on my Facebook newsfeed this morning:

    “Do you call yourself a Christian but live life as you wish? Titus 1:15-16 says “Everything is clean to those who are clean, but nothing is clean to those who are corrupt and unbelieving. Indeed, their very way of thinking and their consciences have been corrupted. They claim to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, and disqualified to do anything good.” Don’t you realize that simply saying that you believe in Jesus Christ is not enough?!?!? You MUST believe in your heart and your belief is demonstrated with how you behave! If in your daily life you curse, lie, cheat, or any of the other things that God forbids, then you aren’t saved and your destiny is hell!!!”

  78. Keith, wow – salvation by law keeping! These false teachers are everywhere.

  79. Keith – they like Paul Washer too. They said it was about ‘willful sin’ and ‘keeping the commandments’… Typical of Ray Comfort style lordship… I’m looking at it now.

  80. Keith – Well, got blocked or kicked off, not sure which 🙂 I will warn against them.

  81. Facebook is full of salvation by works preachers. Our friend Jackie shared one guy, who is a pastor.

    His gospel was similar to Murray’s above, you must continue to believe, you must stay in the faith or you are out of the faith and you have to get back in the faith again to get your ‘position back’. The sadly amusing and ironic part was he used James 1:6-8 to show this is someone who has lost their salvation.

    6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

  82. Here is one from tonight:

    you do know that as a christian that the only thing that can seperate you from god is sin without repentance(change)…

    we are forgiven of committing sin but not willfully living as a sin. is it worth maby giving up living with god for eternity in heaven???

    My comment: The writer of this comment is very confused. All sin was paid for by Christ. This person seems to think that some sin – up to a point – may be forgiven. But, if it is excessive, then no forgiveness and no heaven. We are not saved by avoiding excessive sin. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ.

  83. Yes, separation from God is because of sin (Isaiah 59:2), not because of sin without change. How much change, how does this person know? How long? How much is practicing, and may I ask, does he accidentally sin vs. willfully? A lot of people misunderstand Hebrews 10:26 and the willful sin. They also miss that the person hasn’t lost their salvation by the willful sin, just that the old sacrifice no longer remains.

    Living for God once one has received eternal life, is what we should do. Living for God for salvation, following Him for salvation, being a disciple, none of these things is how we receive the free gift of eternal life.

    I wish people could learn to understand simply, as a child, that the free gift is eternal life. It is free. Free to those who will believe upon Him without adding some work to it. Frightening. I pray whoever this was might read “eternal life for you” above.

  84. Holly, the quote was excerpted from a comment to an article on the internet.

    The back-and-forth usually goes something like this:

    Person A: “If you don’t stop this, that, or the other sin, you will not go to heaven.”

    Person B: “You might be right if what I am doing is a sin. But, what I am doing is not really a sin.”

    Neither person A, nor person B shows any signs of understanding the gospel. Both seem to have bought into a false gospel of works.

  85. Or a possible Person C: I don’t practice my sin and I know I am saved because I have remorse and extreme regret for my sin when I do sin.

  86. Here are a couple more interesting excerpts from comments to an internet article. They are from two different people. The second is in response to the first.

    Excerpt from comment 1:

    Josh will be lucky if god forgives him. he broke so many commandments, and he sinned so many times.

    My comment: we are all fortunate that God is merciful, gracious, and propitious.

    Yet, forgiveness of sins is not predicated on how many commandments we have broken, or think that we have not broken. The Bible says if we have broken one, we have broken them all (James 2:10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.)

    The Bible says that whoever believes in Jesus as Savior is forgiven of all sins – past, present, and future.

    Ephesians 1:7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Colossians 1:14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    Excerpt from Comment 2 (rebuttal to comment 1):

    It is clear that you have an incomplete understanding about the grace and mercy of God in your overly simplistic post. As far as Ive seen, the Duggars dont teach their children that God just keeps on forgiving when a believer shows no godly sorrow and truly repents. Gods grace and mercy is not a license to sin freely.

    My comment: I agree that the first commenter has an incomplete understanding of the grace and mercy of God.

    And yet, I sense that you (commenter 2), if you have a complete understanding of the grace and mercy of God, you did not explain it very well.

    While grace is not a license to sin, those believers who continue to sin without showing godly sorrow and true repentance are never in danger of losing their eternal life. Nor is a casual, or even callous attitude toward sin a dependable signal that someone is not a believer in Christ.

    There are consequences for sin in the life of a believer, but loss of eternal life is never one of them.

  87. I read an article today regarding the president of a Christian college who has run into some personal problems. I know nothing about the guy, or his theology. However, the following comments demonstrate a total lack of understanding of the giape by the commenters:

    Here is one from someone calling himself “Repent or die in sin”:

    “He has fallen to the practices of the world. Unless he repents, and cleans up his life, he is theirs.”

    Here is another, which reads, in part:

    “He is NOT a Christian. He is doing YOUR will. You celebrate immorality at every turn. Celebrate him for serving you.”

    My comment: So these commenters have concluded that someone who sins is not a Christian? We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, not by behaving ourselves properly.

  88. These commenters not only judge someone’s salvation, they also never give the remedy should someone actually have not believed the gospel. But I am sadly afraid most don’t know the remedy…

  89. Here is and excerpt from a comment I found tonight:

    It might help to remember that a Christian is a Christian because they strive to hold to the principals that Christ taught regarding our duty to God and to one another and if they do not do so their Christianity is questionable.

    My comment: A Christian is a Christian because he has believed in Christ as his Savior – not because he strives to hold to the principals that Christ taught regarding our duty to God and to one another.

  90. And here is another:

    Mainline Christianity does not regard Mormonism as a denomination but rather consider it to be a cult due to its many beliefs that are totally different. Nice folks but wrong beliefs to call themselves Christian. We are not all Children of God, but rather enemies of God until we repent of our sins and accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior, then we become His children.

    My comment: Repenting of sins is not a condition for receiving eternal life. To say it is changes the gospel of Jesus Christ to a false gospel of salvation by works.

  91. I spoke to two gentleman yesterday who had recently been ‘married’. Their opinion of street preachers and others oddly was correct. I had an opportunity to share the gospel with them, I don’t know what they received, however, I know the Lord loves them, and desires that they should be saved.

  92. Following is an excerpt of a comment I read tonight:

    Doesn’t Christ, and not the pope justify sinners, and that always through faith. If this Franciscan friar repented of his sins and trusted in Christ, he was justified by faith like ever other saint, Period!! Our deeds are done for love of Christ and was the out working of salvation. Salvation puts the desire to obey and serve in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. No one who loves their sin will enter the kingdom of God regardless of what church he attends. Every true believer wants to obey God though we all still fall short.

    My comment: The above commenter correctly states that Christ justifies sinners, through faith. However, he then says: If this Franciscan friar repented of his sins and trusted in Christ, he was justified by faith like ever other saint, Period!!

    Which is it? Is he justified by faith, or is he justified by faith PLUS repenting of his sins? These are two different concepts. Justified by faith means justified by faith ALONE in Christ ALONE.

    The commenter also said: No one who loves their sin will enter the kingdom of God regardless of what church he attends. Every true believer wants to obey God though we all still fall short.

    Whether or not one loves his sin is not at issue in determining whether or not he has eternal life. Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Not every believer wants to obey God, and those who do want to obey God don’t necessarily want to obey God all of the time. Wanting to obey God is not a requirement for eternal life, and is not a test of whether or not one has eternal life.

    This commenter is trying to correct Catholic theology, which I agree is errant. However, the commenter has missed the forest for the trees. He seems to believe in good works (repenting of sin) to receive eternal life and good works (not loving sin, and wanting to obey God) as proof that one has received eternal life.

  93. Here is an excerpt from a comment in which the writer seems to be trusting in both Jesus and himself:

    Certainly, we all would be well advised to remember, we are sinners saved by grace, and come short of the Glory of God.
    The whole point of being accepting of sinners and not the sin is the concept Jesus taught. He also taught to repent and turn away from sin. The pope believes exactly the same thing, repent and turn away from sin. Jesus Christ loves us in spite of our sin, we return our love by turning from sin and turning to Him. We are not saved by that turning away, but we are expressing the extent of our love and thankfulness for bringing us out of things that harm us and left un-repented lead us to eternal darkness, separated from the presence of an Almighty God, (hell) . The blood of Christ saves us, not ourselves, nor our goodness, nor the lack of sin, nor the extent of our sin, only the precious blood of a Savior.

    My comment: This is the classic “grace sandwich.”

    The writer correctly states that we are not saved by turning from sin. Then, he says that things (sins) left un-repented result in one going to hell. The second part of his comment negates the first. The last sentence affirms his first point, but negates the second.

  94. Here’s a tidbit from R.C. sproul on the necessity of attending church to make it to heaven:

    “When God constituted the people of Israel, He organized them into a visible nation and placed upon them a sober and sacred obligation to be in corporate worship before Him. If a person is in Christ, he is called to participate in koinonia—the fellowship of other Christians and the worship of God according to the precepts of Christ,” Sproul writes.

    “If a person knows all these things and persistently and willfully refuses to join in them, would that not raise serious questions about the reality of that person’s conversion?”

    My comment: Perhaps Sproul and other Reformed “theologians” should add animal sacrifices and free will offerings to the test for whether one possesses eternal life since one must keep the whole law if he keeps any of it (James 2:10).

  95. Keith, wow!

    Sproul’s version of John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him and goeth to church, and participateth in koinonia, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

  96. Yes John, and persevereth to the very end as well.

  97. And readeth and desireth the latest systematic theology book. 🙂

  98. I found the following comment online tonight:

    We don’t get to define what is and what is not sin…God does… turning a blind eye to a brother’s sin and calling it something other than what it is, is not loving that brother – it’s allowing them to remove them self from the Kingdom of God. No one who would sit by and watch their friend destroy themselves through substance abuse, adultery, criminal activity etc can be considered a friend… that’s not being judgmental – that’s being caring, loving, and providing guidance. Pointing out sinful behavior is no different… God doesn’t excuse sin – he forgives it, but only if we recognize it, confess it, and repent of it.

    My comment: The writer of this comment may mean well, but he is distorting the gospel.

    Turning a blind eye to a brother’s sin does not allow that person to remove himself from the Kingdom of God. If he is a brother in Christ, he can do nothing that will make him lose his salvation. If he is not a brother in Christ, he cannot become a brother in Christ by repenting of his sin.

    The only way to receive eternal life is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    Ephesians 2:8-9:

    [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    God forgives all of our sin (past, present, and future) when we believe in Jesus as Savior.

    Acts 10:43: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    The Bible is clear that whoever believes in Jesus as Savior has eternal life, and anyone who does not believe in Jesus as Savior does not have eternal life.

    John 3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

  99. I’ll add my conversation with someone.

    Commenter: “Yes,if they drift away from belief,they never believed in the first place!

    Now if we’re talking about drifting as in sinning,then we all dropped the ball that leads to life,but Christ made a fool proof way that says we gotta believe but let’s not fool ourselves to say we are still counted ,even though we arent,gotta hang on to the simple gospel that’s for all those that believe that,”Christ died for the entire worLds sins but without that Spirit that comes from only faith,we surely remain dead in sins and are NOT counted,so let’s be clear and not sway and say without faith,we remain spiritually dead,as hell!”

    This person says that a believer who stops believing is not a believer, yet here he follows with “we gotta hang on”.

    He also said:

    “Once saved always saved but seriously wild branches,once the Spirit has beared witness to us,”Who changes back to dead after that?”

    These are the types of people who the young sheep need to be most wary of and protected from, for they are close enough to the truth and use enough words like “grace” “eternal life” and “once saved always saved” to convince you they have the truth and corrupt the simplicity that is in Christ.

  100. Benchap, the statement “we gotta hang on” is really troublesome.

    From Tom Cucuzza’s booklet “The Permanence of Salvation”:

    If you are struggling to “hang on”, you do not understand that Biblical salvation is a gift.

  101. Following is an excerpt from a comment responding to an article on the Pope’s denunciation of religious fundamentalism:

    God has made it clear in His Word He is the only God, but the world refuses to let go of their false gods. The Lord says He has only one body or church, but the world refuses to be part of the one church and continue on in their many false counterfeit bodies or churches in this world. Ephesians 5:23 says that Christ “is the Savior of the body”, which is His one body, His one church. Christ is only going to save His one church, and not any of the counterfeit churches. Christ “loved the church and gave Himself for her” (Ephesians 5:25). When someone believes the Gospel and asks Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sins and they truly repent of them, they receive the Holy Spirit. Followers of Christ are the temple of God because the Holy Spirit dwells in us (Rom. 8:9, 8:11, 1 Cor.3:16, 6:19) 2 Cor.6:16 “For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

    My comment: It is not necessary to ask Jesus christ for forgiveness of one’s sins, nor to “truly repent of them” in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

  102. The excerpter’s comment is right in line with the theology of the RCC and, I might add, most evangelical churches as well.

  103. hmmmmmm?????

    When someone believes the Gospel AND asks Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sins AND they truly repent of them, they receive the Holy Spirit

    Eph 1:13 – In whom ye also TRUSTED, after that ye heard the word of truth, THE GOSPEL of your salvation: in whom also after that ye BELIEVED, ye were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT of promise,

    hmmmmmm????? who to believe?

  104. Preston, the chance of finding someone who has the right message regarding eternal life is like the chance of being struck by lightning.

    But, that doesn’t stop people from offering opinions.

  105. LOL Preston
    Sure is something how mankind’s religion would have a soul divide its self against itself using self as the standard ” truly believe ” does just that . nullifying the wonderful free Gift of Grace . Self gets to decide when the unatainable standard is achieved.

  106. Hehe, Preston. That is s great comment. Humour and scripture. I like.

    I thought the excerptor was about to say “and the only true church is the Catholic one, so join it”. Was surprised when he went on a more “evangelical” path. Another path that leads to destruction, despite many on it having great “perseverance” and “faith”.

  107. Hi everyone,

    I just got the following information on MacArthur’s past from Robert Wilkin’s book, “A Gospel of Doubt” – The Legacy of John MacArthur’s The Gospel According to Jesus. I thought the following excerpt by Dr.Wilkin on MacArthur is interesting:

    ” Although I am convinced that MacArthur preaches a false gospel of salvation by works, I am not thereby suggesting that he is unregenerate. I’ve heard him say that prior to his study of the Puritans in 1980 he believed in justification by simple faith apart from works. And I have met people who have been in his church for over twenty years who told me that only after he studied the Puritans in 1980 did his theology change. On that basis, I believe that MacArthur is regenerate and eternally secure.

    He, like all of us, will have to answer at the Judgment Seat of Christ for anything he has taught which is in error ( James 3:1). Yet in the end, I expect to spend eternity with him as a brother in the Lord. MacArthur himself illustrates the beauty of once saved always saved. Even if someone ceases to believe in justification by faith alone apart from works, his later belief in works salvation cannot undo the new birth. But people who have never believed in justification by faith alone apart from works remain unregenerate, no matter how committed and seemingly obedient they are, for they have failed to do the will of the Father concerning His Son.”

    My comment – Based on what I know, I believe MacArthur’s theology was deviant as far back as 1976 with his article entitled, “Not His bleeding, but His dying” where he claims that it was Christ’s death that atoned for sins, and not His shed blood. I believe MacArthur’s 3 very close friends in ministry who defected and became apostate in the faith were a contributing factor in his embracing Calvinism. MacArthur, after seeing his 3 friends become apostate said he, “had trouble filing all of that theologically”.

    I believe his embracing Calvinism gave MacArthur a viable and logical explanation as to why his 3 closest friends became apostate. He also stated that it was not just only his 3 closest friends, but his observation of many other Christians in his church and other churches as well.

  108. William, I remember having read this a while back.

    We know from scripture that some believers stop believing (Luke 8:13: They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.).

    Based on MacArthur’s account, it is possible that seeing his friends become apostate became a temptation for him, and he has fallen away from faith in Christ, to a false gospel of Calvinism/Lordship “salvation.”

    It is also possible that MacArthur was never a believer. It is hard to say. What we can say, is that he does not give a testimony of believing the gospel now.

    The Apostle Paul, by contrast, continued to proclaim the gospel after his friend Demas left his ministry. Paul did not use the discouragement as an excuse to change the Gospel.

    2 Timothy 4:10: For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

    And, Paul never suggested that Demas was not a “true believer”.

  109. Thanks for posting William

  110. From website. Look at how insidious this post is (i’ve not direct quoted the entire article. I’ve done my best not to lose the context, as not to misquote the man who wrote the article. That said, let’s take a look.

    “When we come to recognize and repent for our sins, Christ washes them away, making us new creatures in his name…..Paul refers to the sins of our old self as dead works, because these sins are forgiven, and no longer relevant to our lives…Re-repentance from dead works is an insult to Christ, because it implies that initially he did not fully heal us, and set us free from our sins.

    Sounds ok, apart from the one phrase “repent for our sins”, right?

    But wait, there’s more.

    “Christ gives us eyes that see, so we can recognize our sins, and improve and work on ourselves. This striving to become more Christlike is a responsibility that we have as part of our relationship with him, and not a gift like salvation. In Christ, we are forgiven from our sins, but if we refuse to recognize and confess our own sins and failings, we have rendered ourselves unusable for his purpose and plan.”

    And here’s the poison.

    “Now this doesn’t mean that the second a Christian sins they are out of the book, and no longer a Christian. Our inevitable sins our washed clean if we believe in and follow Christ. What is does mean is that it’s not okay for us to sin, so we have to war against it in Christ, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6.1-2 KJV bible). So it is the willful and habitual sinner, living in sin, whom the wrath of God will be upon when Christ returns to reign (Ephesians 5.3-6).”

    So, he calls salvation a gift. Yet one must repent from sins and follow Christ. If they do not, it appears the wrath of God will still be upon them. Thus, salvation is a work, not a gift, according to this man, but he either doesn’t see that he has transformed the gift into a reward, or he does and is very, very deceptive.

  111. Benchap, you are exactly right. Satan, this time through the person you have quoted, mixes truth with lies.

  112. This person evidently believes you can lose your salvation. Plus his comment here, “Re-repentance from dead works is an insult to Christ, because it implies that initially he did not fully heal us, and set us free from our sins.”

    Dead works I do not believe has to do with sin at all, but trying to work for salvation. If it had to do with sin, then the author would have been saying that repentance from sin was the foundation of our faith. No, it is changing our thinking that anything we do can reconcile us to God. We must believe on Jesus Christ to be reconciled to the Father.

    The person is a mixed bag of loadship and Arminianism.

  113. Yep, Holly.

    What is it with heretics also being prolific writers?

  114. The soul is spiritually drunk

  115. Ben,

    Heretics are wrong if they think their many “wise” words amount to anything. They refuse to use the Scriptures and allow them to speak. They forget that there are those who will not be wooed and wowed by their excellency of speech nor proliferation of words.

    “And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:1-4)

    That’s the problem today. Too many non-discerning Christians today bank their knowledge of salvation on the wisdom of men, but not in the truth of the Gospel — the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16-17). Heretics do not esteem the knowledge of salvation with fear and trembling. Instead, they are cavalier and are ignorant of the stricter judgement teachers of the Word receive.

    “In the multitude of words wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.” (Proverbs 10:19)

  116. Amen Jackie

    Proverbs 10 :19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

  117. Ben and Curtis, so true. And Jackie said it perfectly. Oddly, when I have used that on them (1 Cor 2), they don’t recognize the words from the Scripture. It’s very sad actually, they know all the reformed writers, just don’t recognize the Word outside of their proof texts.

  118. This comment is under the heading “The Gospel according to a Catholic priest”.

    He used 1 John like many others do! If we love each other, God is in us (in the context of: we are at that point a real Christian”

    I couldn’t believe, remembering that I was at a Catholic wedding, how similar Catholic beliefs and teachings are to the Independant Baptist Church and obviously Calvinists and Arminians. It was insane.

    They mix sanctification and salvation in nearly every sentence! Then we sacrificed Jesus a fresh and many ate and drank him. They ask for forgiveness of sins so that they can enter eternity, -and they do this weekly. Then they bless the people who are dead and in eternity (how in the world do they know?) and pray that they would be accepted to (on what basis????).

    I wanted to scream and cry and in the end I just shook my head in disbelief and disappointment. These people aren’t an enemy (the leaders are), they are just deceived and need Christ!

    Anyway, if anyone reads this comment within the next five hours, please pray that I would have wisdom to speak to these people. There will be many doors at the reception, I believe.

  119. Benchap, I have prayed that you will have an opportunity to share the gospel with some of these people.

    Yes, Catholicism is just part of the wide world of churchianity that does not teach the finished work of Christ.

  120. Hi I was wondering if any of you have listened to Robert dean ministries . I was fine listening to his teaching in Romans and John saying you simply beleive no repentance involved. But then listening to him in acts he pretty much said repentance means a change of mind attitude and to turn. And said in acts 26 that change your mind and turn to God and do works worthy of repentance to him he said it meant turn in the sense from the way you were living to bringing forth works . Strange that he says in John you only have to beleive for eternal life no repentance involved like from sin etc. and he teaches James right as well. Has he changed his stance as I noticed between his book of John and Romans before acts was 5 years . I thought he was free grace. As he was on ges site. Any one heard of him? Pity because I enjoyed the book of John he taught.

  121. Maree, due to Robert Dean’s aberrant teaching in regard to the “spiritual death” of Christ, I cannot recommend him. Dean says that Christ paid for our sins while still physically alive.

    For information on Robert Dean’s teaching on the “spiritual death” of Christ, please see the link below to an article written by Jim Floyd on this subject:

    Repentance, in a salvation context, does not involve turning from sin, nor the willingness to turn from sin in any way. Eternal life cannot be both a free gift, and also be contingent on our good works. Doing works worthy of repentance is not automatic in the lives of believers, but it is God’s will that Christians do good works.

  122. Thanks . Heard that Jesus died spiritually years ago didn’t get it so left it alone. It gets limiting on who to listen too. Good on some topics but not on others. I notice ges and other free grace teachers differ on repentance gets confusing to say the least. Yankee Arnold change of mind explains it well that it fits . But admit I still get doubt when I have listened to other people and have to kick out the doubt by going back over the scriptures on grace.

  123. Maree, the GES guys got off the rails when they began teaching the cross-less gospel.

    I would recommend that you not listen to anyone whose explanation of repentance makes you have doubts as to the scriptures on grace.

  124. Hi Maree

    “We believe that each believer must grow in grace….”
    found under responsibility of believers dean ministries . yes it is Gods will that all believers grow in Grace by repeated mental responses to Grace by Faith but sadly not all believers grow and some our undergoing God’s chastening .
    it is something I see over and over and over when a ministry has a doctrinal statement and or website Void of a clear plan of salvation 10 out of 10 have weak to false teaching concerning salvation and doctrine .
    I would not waste my time with a ministry that is not clear on the Gospel and the 3 tenses of salvation (justification, sanctification,glorification) .
    At the very least if a soul desires to be bound in an area let it be to desire to properly articulate clearly God’s simple clear plan of salvation

  125. I like that Curtis, “if a soul desires to be bound in an area let it be to desire to properly articulate clearly God’s simple clear plan of salvation.”

    Amen to that!

    Maree– I’ve taken to checking out preachers first, (prove all things) you can put their name plus heresy, false, problems, errors, etc. and then you can look to see what the error may be before they subtly introduce heretical doctrine or bring us back under bondage. Looking at their gospel and statement of faith is a must for me. If it is not easily available, I know something is very wrong.

  126. I was reading an article today, in which the Pope said Catholics should no longer attempt to convert Jews.

    I agree that Catholics should not try to convert Jews to Catholicism. If a Christian is in the Roman Catholic Church, he should separate from it, and try to preach the gospel to any and everybody, including Jews.

    Following is one is the more interesting comments to the article.

    I’m a Catholic but the Roman Catholic Church is just getting crazier and crazier. I’ll always be a Christian but the church no longer speaks for me. The only thing Christ would care about is whether Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Catholic is the message of love and how you treat your fellow man. I doubt your personal beliefs would matter to him.

    My comment: Christ is the only Savior. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. We are not saved by how we treat our fellow man. And, the Bible says that our personal beliefs do matter to Christ.

    John 3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

  127. Very telling Johninnc —

    It is a classic sign of the end. The AC will set himself up as god in the midpoint of the tribulation, and those who know the Scriptures will flee. The children of wrath will always persecute the Jews and the church.

  128. Holly,

    its even worse, replacement theology has “the church” persecuting the Jews.

    I am all over you tube, the Jews are hated and blamed for everything by many…..its like Hitler on steroids.

  129. The root of the problem, whether it’s LS, Calvinism, replacement theology, Reformed, Catholic…is they all have one thing in common. They use what I call Add-on theology. The co-mingle Law and grace. They will use what Christ taught under the Law to the Jews, like the requirements of the Sermon on the Mount, as the requirements to be saved. It’s not just believe the gospel, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as your salvation. They will also add you also have to do this or that. whether it’s from the Gospel accounts or other verses in the Bible.
    Years ago I read C.I. Scofield’s ” Rightly Dividing the Word in Truth”.
    In Chapter 6 of this Scofield makes some sound points of what was required under the Law of Moses, and what is for the Christian believer under grace alone.. Here are some points he makes:
    “Law always has a place and work distinct and wholly diverse from that of grace. Law is God prohibiting and requiring; grace is God beseeching and bestowing. Law is a ministry of condemnation; grace of forgiveness. Law curses; grace redeems from that curse. Law kills; grace makes alive. Law shuts every mouth before God; grace opens every mouth to praise Him. Law puts a great and guilty distance between man and God; grace makes guilty man nigh unto God. Law says, “Hate thine enemy”, grace, “love your enemies. Law says, do and live, grace, believe and live. Law never had a missionary; Grace is to be preached to every creature. Law utterly condemns the best man; grace freely justifies the worst. Law is a system of probation; grace, of favor. Law stones an adulteress; grace says, “Neither do I condemn thee.” Under law the sheep dies for the shepherd; under grace the Shepherd dies for the sheep.
    Everywhere the Scriptures present law and grace in sharply contrasted spheres. The mingling of them in much of the current teaching of the day spoils both, for the law is robbed of its terror and grace of this freeness.”

    There is much more to this essay of Scofield. But I think he hit it on the head: The reason for the legalism– and the faith plus this or that to be saved, faith plus you must repent and forsake all your sins to be saved is the failure to rightly divide the word–to separate what is for the law and what is for the church–that is grace alone. Galatianism or added legal requirements to faith and grace was the false teaching Paul had to deal with, and, sadly what Scofield saw, and it is still what dominates what passes for the majority of Christian doctrine and beliefs today.
    Galatianism/ Lordship Salvation/Calvinism/Catholicism/Puritanism/Arminianism/ Covenant theology/replacement theology have always been and still are Satan’s favorite and most successful theology.

  130. Phil, very well said!

    Ron Shea says the problem hinges on the redefinition of the word “grace”:

    The lynchpin is not baptismal regeneration, lordship salvation, eternal security, or assurance. These are symptoms. The doctrine of “justification-by-works” crystalizes around a redefinition of the word “grace.” “Infused grace became the agent of transformation. The process of transformation was known as “justification.” To Augustine, God did not declare us righteous while we were yet sinners, he transformed us into righteousness…

    This “transformation” hinged upon the infusion of a mystical substance called “grace.”

    My comment: I would put it more succinctly. One either believes eternal life is a gift, or not.

  131. Thanks john, Here is what Scripture says when grace occurs. “For while we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteousness man will one die; yet peradventure for good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Rom 5:6 -10).
    “But God , who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved through faith. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of this grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.” (Eph 2:4-7)

    I wonder if Calvinists ever study Galatians? They should because Paul is talking about them. No matter what the Calvinists and LS’s say about they they believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone, or sugar coat it In reality they really believe in justification and salvation by WORKS. They believe and promote another gospel that Paul warns about. (Gal 1:8,9)

  132. Phil, you said:. No matter what the Calvinists and LS’s say about they they believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone, or sugar coat it In reality they really believe in justification and salvation by WORKS. They believe and promote another gospel that Paul warns about. (Gal 1:8,9)

    My comment: Agree. They are often not even aware of it – particularly those who adhere to backdoor LS (aka “perseverance of the saints,” or “a true Christian will.”)

    Calvinism and LS both point to one’s own righteousness – instead of Christ’s righteousness – for justification. The Bible teaches that believers in Christ are justified by Him.

    Acts 13:39: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Romans 3:26:To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    2 Corinthians 5:21: For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

  133. as an repentant calvinist if you would of accused me of being a calvinist years ago while under the bewitching of LS. I would have denied being a calvinist saying leave calvin out of it not knowing I was following calvinist theology . That’s how twisted my calvinist LS world was then being under the works for salvation spell .

    Just keep sharing Gospel Truth with those who oppose themselves.

  134. Back in the 1990’s as a believer, I knew very little about LS and Calvinism, I made the mistake of starting to attend an IFCA Bible church. The regular adult Bible study teacher on Sundays was not there one Sunday and this church elder filled in to teach the class. His subject was James 2 and he started in on “you gotta have the works to be saved”. “John MacArthur tells all about this….”
    He went on to say, “I know I have the works.”
    He even kept the ribbon marker neatly placed in his pristine Bible. Maybe that meant he hadn’t contaminated his pristine grace and kept up his good works to get to heaven.
    There was a lot more LS Calvinism that I discovered over time there. I thought there are differences in beliefs in any church and I would just stay with my grace only beliefs. But it didn’t work and I ended up leaving this church after a couple of years mostly in disgust over John MacArthurism. I knew very little about JMac when i started going to this church, but over time the more I heard about his LS teachings, the more red flags went up.

    Curtis, you are right. They see the cross as a jump start on their treadmill of personal righteousness. And no matter what they say about the 5 solas, grace alone, faith alone, in Christ alone…..are not really alone to them. In reality, they believe in salvation by working your way to heaven.

  135. “They see the cross as a jump start on their treadmill of personal righteousness.”

    Yes , said well phil
    1995 I started attending an IFCA church the church had a bitter split about 5 years ago over John MacArthurism . I no longer attend church there both sides are in doctrinal error on salvation .

  136. Very true Preston, the other day on a FB group under our guidelines, a professing Christian woman came unglued when we said we supported Israel, the remnant, and the promises made to them for the land. We provided Scriptures. They’ve been there since our inception, but she must have just read them, she came unglued sadly.

  137. Curtis, Phil, John – they really do have one obvious thing in common, works. Same as any other worldly religion, no matter how they package it as “Christian”, it still smells like a Pharisee.

  138. Holly, I agree completely.

    From time-to-time, we have someone come here who tries to find a bridge between one of these false religions (usually the false Calvinist/LS tenet of “perseverance of the saints”) and grace.

    It is a complete waste of time.

    There is no bridge between the false religion of Calvinism and the gospel of grace. They are completely incompatible. The only way to find a bridge between Calvinism and grace is to compromise the gospel.

  139. Amen Holly , Thank you for the reminder

    The beauty of the Gospel is that is so wonderfully excludes a soul and is based entirely on the work of the Lord Jesus in what He has done received as a Gift . mankind desires to stick finger in the pudding of the pie .
    upon receiving the gift of righteousness we have privilege to be under a higher law . The law of the Spirit to reign in appropriating the gift of righteousness to our souls. to be filled with Spirit spilling out to others.

    reign = to be a king
    King in what?
    in appropriating the gift of righteousness.
    How ?
    yield to the Spirit .
    repeated responses to Grace by Faith the same way we are saved.

    that’s to simple there’s got to be a vice grip or legalistic straight jacket I could put on and have someone ride on me . unfortunately there are false teachings abound that take advantage of a soul who would desire a vise grip or straight jacket. To work their way right into Hell.
    Heaven is easy it’s a gift you got to work at going to Hell .
    sinners go to heaven , good people go to Hell.
    Whoa to them whom offences come

    Rom 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

    Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

  140. Here’s 3 passages from God’s Word that utterly refutes “faith + “works” = salvation:

    1) Luke 7:50 – Jesus said to the woman, “YOUR FAITH HAS SAVED YOU; GO IN PEACE.” Notice Jesus did NOT say to her, “Thy faith plus works has saved you.”

    2) Luke 17:19 – Then he said to him, “Rise and go; YOUR FAITH HAS MADE YOU WELL.” This was the only leper out of the 10 who were healed by Jesus who came back and knelt before Him to praise and thank Him. This one leper was healed of leprosy and also eternally saved at that very moment.

    3) Luke 18:42 – And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE.

    The blind man BELIEVED that Jesus is the Messiah that gives eternal life in Luke 18:38. He was healed of his blindness and at the same time instantly and eternally saved right then and there in verse 42.

    Now, where is the mention of WORKS from Jesus? NONE.

    Sola Fide!

  141. William, thanks for sharing those great passages!

    The Bible is clear that eternal life is a free gift, but so many people try to corrupt and complicate the message.

  142. Fellow grace believing saints, I am sure you know we are under attack. Just today I ran across this site called “Truth Unchanging” by a Randy Seiver. It attacks this Oasis of Grace, Expreacherman. It is definitely LS/Calvinist. Lordship “salvation” in every respect. It does the usual adding to simple faith and grace and adds works and discipleship the gospel in 1 Cor 15 which we are to alone believe for eternal life. Seiver tries to say the LS and Calvinists have done an poor job of communicating the “true and complete” gospel for eternal life. According to Seiver, we are saved by grace alone, thru faith alone plus discipleship.
    When I started reading his site, it sounded like bridge building, but it is nothing but pure LS, covenent, Calvinism. He talks out of both sides of his mouth saying salvation is sola fide, sola gracia, but in reality it is justification by works.
    He tries to make a strawman out of this site Exp that we are antinomianists who are promoting a head belief to get to heaven and sin doesn’t matter once you are saved, the same type of accusations directed at Paul. At the root of the matter, he like other Calvinists, have a totally incorrect understanding of grace (which is God’s unmerited favor to sinners.)

    But who knows? He may just change his mind. After all, we have other brothers and sisters on this Oasis of Grace here who came out of LS and Calvinism.

  143. Phil, I am aware of the guy to whom you are referring. The late Jack Weaver blocked him from commenting on here a long time ago.

    Sin in the life of a believer has consequences, but none of them has to do with whether or not one has eternal life. Eternal life is received by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

  144. Holly, I’m still praying for you and Adam. Happy Holidays!

  145. Thanks for the heads up Phil
    I went and read the doctrinal statement there , was going to post some of it here but the doctrinal statement is a mess like a incoherent drunkard especially under salvation , faith and repentance .

    one of the first places we see the gospel under attack in scripture is when cain slew abel and when adam and eve covered up with fig leaves

  146. I prefer to avoid people who are trying to “build bridges” to unite Calvinism/LS with grace.

    Whether such person is hostile, or courteous,it is deception. Calvinism/LS are not compatible with grace.

  147. It looked like he tried to start some sort of forum for debate or questions about 4 years ago on this site. It doesn’t look like he got any posts or replies in all that time. Maybe people are starting to believe it is Christ alone who gets them to Heaven and not them getting themselves there.

  148. Phil, I continue to pray for those who seem to be confused on the differentiation between grace and works.

  149. Here is an excerpt from a comment I read today:

    Romans 10:9-10 are THE pivotal verses for understanding what it takes to saved [belief that God raised Jesus from the dead and a committment to Jesus as Lord of your life].

    My comment: Romans 10:9-10 say nothing of making a commitment to Jesus as Lord of your life in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. This commenter has turned the free gift of eternal life into a false gospel of salvation through commitment to Jesus.

  150. This fixation that many people seem to have with Roman 10:9-10 as being a must to be followed to be saved. It seems to have become like a button they push and then they are saved. And it seems to be the pet passage or go-to salvation passage recipe for those who either have a poor understanding what all salvation really is, or who have trouble explaining salvation to someone. Makes you wonder if anyone ever told them what all is said about grace and faith in the rest of Romans, particularly Romans 3 thru 5.
    You will hear preachers throw Rom 10:9,10 out to their flocks without an explanation of what all is involved in Christ saving us. It’s popular with the “name it and claim it crowd” and Pentecostals, “Just profess and believe these two verses and you’ve made it, you’re saved! ”
    Yes John, Romans 10:9,10 are not eternal salvation verses. Instead we are eternally saved by simply believing the gospel of our salvation. (1 Cor 15:1-11)

  151. “Miss Sophia is well versed in this area. She is no slouch, neither is she confused about eternal security.
    Not to take sides, only to make clear that she isn’t pushing Lordship Salvation 1 tiny bit.

    I also espouse the doctrine: “Eternal Security of the Believer” as best I know how.


    I see what Miss Sophia is speaking about, for sure! Easy Prayerism = fake Christian.

    it usually sounds like this: ‘If you don’t wanna go to hell… repeat after me: Dear Jesus come into my heart.’
    ¡Viola! —> Now you are eternally secure because you said the prayer.

    No way! The idea of repentance = believing is powerful.
    We are to change our attitude about sin and believe that Jesus paid for it. There is no works required – and yet THERE IS a fundemental, paradigm shift. We are no longer putting “Self” in front of “God”. Not talking about actions.. but … 》INTENTIONS《.
    When we are born again our intent is to follow Him deliberately at the expense of self ambition.

    Practically speaking – If the years go by… and a person acts like a child of the devil… I would tell them I think they missed something when they think they got saved. I would counsel them to MAKE SURE they grasp what Jesus did … and How they deserved wrath for sin.

    HOWEVER —> We cannot know the difference between a lost person posing as a believer.. and a backslidden Christian in truth, soooo we must tread lightly enough that the Lord will forgive us, for being wrong. Either, that we accused a fellow heir of not being real… or that we gave confidence of salvation to a lost person. (And now.. they won’t recieve the gospel because they have been VACCINATED against the truth.)”

  152. Benchap, this is a great example of someone trying to mix grace with works.

    Excerpt from quote:

    There is no works required – and yet THERE IS a fundemental, paradigm shift. We are no longer putting “Self” in front of “God”. Not talking about actions.. but … 》INTENTIONS《.
    When we are born again our intent is to follow Him deliberately at the expense of self ambition.

    My comment: A “paradigm shift” in which one intends to follow Jesus at the expense of self ambition is not a requirement for receiving the free gift of eternal life. Nor is an evaluation of our intentions for evidence of such a “paradigm shift” any kind of a basis for assurance, nor lack of assurance of salvation.

    Excerpt from quote: Practically speaking – If the years go by… and a person acts like a child of the devil… I would tell them I think they missed something when they think they got saved. I would counsel them to MAKE SURE they grasp what Jesus did … and How they deserved wrath for sin.

    My comment: Neither one’s own behavior, or that of someone else, should be evaluated for evidence of eternal life.

    Excerpt from quote: HOWEVER —> We cannot know the difference between a lost person posing as a believer.. and a backslidden Christian in truth, soooo we must tread lightly enough that the Lord will forgive us, for being wrong. Either, that we accused a fellow heir of not being real… or that we gave confidence of salvation to a lost person. (And now.. they won’t recieve the gospel because they have been VACCINATED against the truth.)

    My comment: We should not make any assumptions about whether or not someone has eternal life based on his behavior. Rather, we should try to assess whether or not someone understands the gospel clearly. If they do, great. If not, we should try to explain it to them from scripture.

  153. Jackie Garcia

    John (and anyone else who can answer), will a believer always have a conviction of sin and spiritual understanding that differs from the unsaved person? The following comments seem backdoor lordship:

    “I know. I have tried, without success to explain the Gospel to some and they insist they believe. But their lives and their understanding do not reflect salvation. So I persevere in PRAYER for them.”

    *another person ask what is meant their lives do not reflect salvation*

    “They remain solidly in a world of worldly understanding. No knowledge of Scripture, no preference for the things of God. No association with brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. Nothing but the claim of belief.”

    “I ALWAYS knew I was doing wrong. I always had discernment, too. Isn’t that amazing? Even when steeped in sin, I recognized that Benny Hinn was a fraud.”

    “I discerned the false nearly always when I was living in sin.
    What I didn’t discern was the false nature of Lordship. It was a wonderful discovery when I found out that I had NOT lost my salvation.”

    According to this person, if someone lacks the conviction of sin, desire to be in fellowship, spiritual discernment, they prove they’re not saved. What’s frightening is this person has presented themselves as believing free-grace theology.

  154. Same guy:

    “There are many who presume they are saved, because of an Amway meeting, that told them they could make money if they accept Jesus, too.
    They think they are saved.. but trusted a falsehood.
    So….when we see a pattern of poor daily dealings… OR a lack of charity: We havento wonder.
    Lost person decieved into thinking they are saved… or Saved person needs to understand Romans 6?”

  155. Same person as my last post, not Jackie’s ****

  156. Jackie, I don’t think a believer will always have a conviction of sin that differs from that of an unsaved person. I do think a believer who is in God’s word and yielded to the Holy Spirit will understand things that an unsaved person will not.

    An unsaved person, for example, may read into scripture that he must do good works to be saved, or that one can lose salvation through sin. Such a person may know that Jesus is necessary for eternal life, but believe that He is not enough.

    Bible knowledge and spiritual discernment are not the same thing.

    For Christians, one who is not in God’s word will not understand as much scripture as one who is. Some Christians are more discerning than others. There are differences in interpretation of some passages by saved people. And, Christians who compromise and sit under false teaching may become confused.

    Conversely, almost anyone – saved or not – should be able to tell that Benny Hinn is a fraud.

    Now, regarding the quotes that you provided, they reflect the confusion of Lordship “salvation.” I will try to address them one by one:

    Excerpt from quote: “I know. I have tried, without success to explain the Gospel to some and they insist they believe. But their lives and their understanding do not reflect salvation. So I persevere in PRAYER for them.”

    My comment: If this person is having difficult explaining the gospel to someone, it is likely because he is confused about the gospel himself. His quote reveals that he thinks someone must exhibit a changed life to “reflect” salvation.

    Excerpt from quote: “They remain solidly in a world of worldly understanding. No knowledge of Scripture, no preference for the things of God. No association with brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. Nothing but the claim of belief.”

    My comment: As I said above, a Christian may have little knowledge of scripture for a number of reasons, including not being in God’s word, or sitting under false teaching.

    One does not have to have a preference for the things of God, or association with brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus to prove he is saved. If he has heard the gospel clearly presented, understands it, and believes it, he need not have any of these other things present in his life to confirm that he is a Christian.

    Excerpt from quote: “I ALWAYS knew I was doing wrong. I always had discernment, too. Isn’t that amazing? Even when steeped in sin, I recognized that Benny Hinn was a fraud.”

    My comment: “I” “I” “I”! This person is substituting his perception of his experience for the word of God.

    Excerpt from quote: “I discerned the false nearly always when I was living in sin.
    What I didn’t discern was the false nature of Lordship. It was a wonderful discovery when I found out that I had NOT lost my salvation.”

    My comment: The timing of this person discovering that he had not lost his salvation may have actually preceded, or coincided with him believing in Jesus as his Savior for the first time. If so, he may be looking in the rearview mirror for evidence that he had been saved all along. He will not find it. There is no evidence of salvation, other than Whom we are trusting for eternal life.

    So much of churchianity puts the mistaken emphasis on life change for their Christian testimony. This can inadvertently turn the “Christian testimony” into a testimony of salvation by works.

    From Clear Gospel Campaign:

    When the “changed life” becomes the focus of a “conversion” testimony, it is not only a practice unknown to Scripture, it is in fact, counter productive in pointing men and women to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. It implies that salvation is allowing Jesus to change one’s life, with the consequence of observing a change. Ultimately, such “testimonies teache, by implication, the doctrines of Lordship salvation and justification by works, wherein justification is a process by which our lives are transformed. This is, by definition, the doctrine of Justification by works. In view of this, the modern “testimony” has become a cancer on the church. It not only deviates from the example given by Scripture, in truth, it is become an impediment to salvation, and a coruption of the gospel message.

  157. Benchap, a pattern of poor daily dealings or a lack of charity are not reasons to think that a person is either saved or unsaved.

    If the gospel has been clearly explained to a person, and they understand and believe it, they have eternal life. Their lifestyle has nothing to do with it. If it did, we would all be lost, because we all still sin.

  158. John, I agree on all accounts.

    There has been so much drama over the past 24 hours because I stood against these teachings – and the one’s Jackie posted.

    I’m so drained, lol.

  159. Ben, I have prayed for both you and Jackie to be gentle and wise in contending for the faith.

  160. 3 positions for a soul

    once saved we are either spiritual being filled with holy spirit or carnal .
    being filled is to yield to holy spirit or not filled grieve .
    yield to holy spirit in our thinking
    1.know one’s position in christ
    2. recon ,count up the cost or price paid by Jesus believing that what God’s word says to be Truth ( worship in spirit and Truth)
    3. present ourselves (perpetually) romans 12 :1-2
    4. Yield to Holy Spirit
    if you are not being filled with the spirit and serving the lord the next response is to look to ourselves . We are either looking to the lord or looking at self

    Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

    i’m 50 years old saved 30 years and now looking back over my saved life
    the one thing missing is positional Truth . I myself did not study positional truth for myself and was exposed to weak to false teaching while listening to “christian radio ” while driving truck . also grew up in a very legalistic culture in my area. Amish , River Brethren , mennonite, united christian .
    being exposed to weak to false teaching left me floundering because the emphasis is always on self and sin when all along sin is not the issue it is where is your focus ? Is it on Jesus and His finished work allowing the Holy Spirit to do the changing in our thinking ?
    or is focus on self and self can not know self has eternal life as a free gift because of looking for evidence of salvation . While all along the Holy Spirit is given being born again that a soul is saved apart from works .
    I also am living in the consequences of exposing my family and myself to 8 years at a IFCA church the pastor even taught and promoted scofield yet positional Truth and assurance of salvation was not proclaimed but “we want you here every time church doors are open” I sat in three years of scofield tuesday nite classes and towards the end of the 3 years the Pastor asked class “How are we saved? ” and not one person of about 20 souls knew we are saved by Grace . years later the church bitterly split over calvinism of the john macarthur kind.

    *another person ask what is meant their lives do not reflect salvation*
    when a soul starts going down this road
    they are headed for failure and failure is the plan of God showing us where we are getting into the act . A saved soul who is a preacher or lay person asking these types of questions are either unsaved or carnal .
    if a pastor is preaching ” reflecting salvation ”
    run forest run

  161. Benchap
    Multi level marketing , Network Marketing or whatever spin they putting on it these days . Will split churches, family and friends quicker than handing out bottles of moonshine . I have seen it happen once a saved soul crosses over into carnality of the multi level marketing kind they are under a spell a virus that affects and infects souls around them . I have had elders and deacons come to my wife and I with MLM schemes. It is difficult to think towards a soul the same way once you get “the phone call” to be invited to a MLM meeting.
    If you get an opportunity to talk to a soul under the MLM influence present the Clear Gospel of Grace to them , they will probably just agree with everything you say about the Gospel of Grace in hopes of winning you over to sign up. In their MLM thinking they try and hook souls into MLM to get them saved

  162. Curtis, I have also noticed the prevalence of multi-level marketing in the LS community.

  163. I found this excerpt today, from a commenter going back and forth with atheists:

    Either you pay for your sin or someone must step into your place and take your spot. Jesus Christ, the Son of God did that for us, for all who repent of their sins and believe in Him.

    My comment: Believing that Jesus paid the full price for our sins is contradicted by believing that we must repent of our sins in order to receive eternal life. Turning from sins is a work, and we are saved by grace, apart from works.

  164. The wages of sin is death romans 6:23
    the payment for sin is not repenting of sin
    the payment is made by dying for your sin
    Jesus paid our sin debt
    BUT BUT BUT the Gift Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ Our Lord

    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    it is ironic pardox to me that God would use “repenting of sin ” to revive me. during a revival service at a IFCA church were guest pastor said need to “repent of sin ” for salvation I remember leaning front to another pastor and said “that’s not the gospel ” then fending off elders trying to get me saved again with1 john 1:9.
    Hungering for Truth of The Gospel here I am now on this blog .
    saddle up and seat belts our optional

  165. Curtis, I am thankful that yiu are here!

  166. Ben and Jackie, you did a very good job on that thread on Facebook. Sorry I missed the first part or I would have addressed them too. They had both quit the group before I got back from the trauma care. I was impressed with your firm and bold speech and use of the Scriptures. It’s hard to not get waylaid in those conversations when others get personal and do not used Scripture. Or take a side track like the gentleman you posted Ben, and throw out the foolish arguments that were never brought up or suggested even, i.e, easy prayerism, or faith in the wrong thing (i.e. Amway). These are not reasoned discussions using Scripture but again foolish arguments on their part. Praying for a seed to have been planted and for not only them, but for those they will mislead in their pride or lack of understanding.

    John did a great job of answering the excerpts. Both people do not have an understanding that they are still enmeshed to a certain degree in Loadship, but I pray they will. No matter whether I like either person, their doctrine was wrong and needed brought into the light. God bless you both 🙂

  167. Curtis – I needed the laugh!

    “if a pastor is preaching ” reflecting salvation ”
    run forest run”

    “Hungering for Truth of The Gospel here I am now on this blog .
    saddle up and seat belts are optional”

    Amen, and thanks for the words of wisdom and the laughter too.

  168. Here’s another accusing me I’m deceived after I rebuked this man’s teaching of an accursed gospel. The religious lost know no bounds.

    “You are deceived. Corinthians is written to Christians, Acts 2:38 was preached to non-Christians & three thousand repented, were baptized & received the Holy Spirit. Your gospel is a different gospel. A gospel of easy-believism & non-committal. You don’t have the Holy Spirit so therefore you don’t even belong to Jesus Christ Rom.8:9. You are attempting to come into the sheep pen through a different gate than the one that Jesus prescribed. You will pay for your rebellion.”

  169. Jackie, so this person can now judge your soul?

    And, he bases your absence of eternal life on the lack of commitment to Christ? If so, his commitment had better be perfect and unfailing.

  170. Same thought as well . this gentleman somehow claims to know if a soul has the Holy Spirit or not .
    The very fact that Jackie questions / reproves this gentleman on the Gospel is evidence of the Holy Spirit.
    It is a very fare question to ask a soul if they know they have eternal life.
    If a soul does not know they have eternal life there is no eternal life. The Holy Spirit gives us the assurance of eternal life through the Word of Truth . commitment for eternal life or for indwelling Holy is not biblical.
    We are seeing who was on Paul’s heals

  171. Jackie,

    he said – You are attempting to come into the sheep pen through a different gate

    Jesus said, i am the door, BY ME if any man enter in……

    trying to enter in through baptism and commitment is actually “another gate”.

  172. Angela (johnthreefourteen)

    Jackie, hold tight. The Enemy is attacking you through this man, and the others who as he is doing. The Enemy wants to get us to doubt the Lord’s promises and that fact that God never lies. The Enemy wants to be the one people think is telling them the truth and that it is God who lies. The Enemy is causing this trouble all throughout the church today. We know that salvation is not of works. God couldn’t have said it any simpler that He has. The Lord bless you for holding to the truth and contending for it! Keep at it, Sister!

  173. johnthreefourteen

    Amen, Preston!

  174. Yes, have your armor on Jackie, and having done all to STAND.

  175. “Miss Sophia” is now using Galatians 5:19-21 to say these people that do these things are not Christians, and basing the fact that no Christian could murder on 1 John 3:15. That’s the trouble with lifting verses out without understanding or using context.

    She told one that she believes in grace, however, ‘we take grace too far’ in stating one cannot show signs of being a believer, and I assume that meant her list of conviction of sins, love for things of God, love for His Word, love for others in the body, and not committing serious sins.

  176. These passages in Galatians (and the mirrored ones in Corinthians) are further affirmation of Jesus’ truth: you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God.

    It isn’t saying: “believer” do you practice these things? Then you aren’t a believer/you still won’t enter the kingdom.

    It is a reminder of what people make heaven and also a reminder to believers that they have two contrary natures. If they walk in one, they fulfill lusts of the flesh. If they choose to walk in another, this is the list of traits that follow.

    Sophia is wrong. This is not a list given to discern who is really saved, nor to prove that works are automatic. The end of Galatians five COMMANDS believers to walk in the Spirit. “If Ye live in the Spirit walk Ye in Him”. It makes a clear distinction between living (being born again) and walking in the Spirit. It disproves this silly notion that it’s automatic.

    But of course, you can’t teach a wilfully ignorant person this. It infringes upon self justification.

  177. Benchap, I agree with you completely. Sophia is wrong.

    I have prayed that Sophia will become clear on this.

  178. Ben & John, those passages are difficult for some to understand, that’s for sure.. But as one who is instructing others on what these mean, she has a lot to answer for. I found out yet another has been conversing with her. I do pray for her, but mostly that those she has private messaged (for who knows how long) will not be misled.

  179. Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

    Mrs Sophia is missing the tenses of salvation and missing the sin nature (that is not eradicated as believer souls 1 John 1:10 ) that we all have to deal with and be dead too as Believer people .
    If mrs sophia or any other soul don’t see or exposed to the battle between the flesh and Spirit . First things First They NEED TO GET SAVED. and to Stop trying to read and understand scripture as an unsaved soul .

  180. I see what you’re saying Curtis, but I don’t think we can determine one’s salvation based on whether or not they are fully clean of backdoor a Lordship.

    Doing this is no different to fruit inspecting, only that its intellectual fruit inspecting.

    Many Christians are not clear on the flesh/Spirit battle post salvation and many are easily bewitched into believing that because they’ve been saved now they’ll automatically act better because of Christ in them.

    I agree that this is untrue and that it only leads to bondage as people start fruit inspecting themselves, putting themselves subtly under the law of sin and death for righteousness and causing themselves nothing but doubt and fear as they take their view off of the promises of God and onto themselves to see if they really have eternal life.

    I can’t say if Sophia needs to be saved. She does need to repent of false teaching, though. If that is so she can be restored or saved, I know not.

  181. John Piper, a wicked wolf and minister of satan, needs to have his mouth stopped. Piper is responsible for the blood of countless men and he will be held accountable by Almighty God. What a frightening thought. Just stumbled across this quote of his:

    “Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there. It’s a way of overcoming every obstacle to everlasting joy in God. If we don’t want God above all things, we have not been converted by the gospel.”

  182. Jackie, I suppose if John Piper wants God above all things, all the time, perfectly, he should be in pretty good shape (sarcasm intended).

    The Bible says that Christ died for the ungodly.

    Romans 5:6: For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    Piper is saying that Christ died only for the godly. Piper is saying that he is saved by grace PLUS wanting God above all things.

    Piper’s testimony, essentially, is “I don’t believe in Jesus.”

  183. Piper really does not believe the Gospel. I pray he once did before accepting an accursed message. The grace of God is so great and unfathomable that those who – after trusting Christ as Savior – prefer not to see Him there WILL be there! They will surely regret thinking such a blasphemous thought, but Jesus also paid for that by His precious shed blood. Such people will praise Him into all of eternity for the grace and love He showed them when they deserved it least. Looks like Piper’s god doesn’t have a whole lot of grace to go around and is reserved only for those who treasure him above all else.

    John Piper is a thief, attempting to enter the sheepfold through any other door other than Jesus Christ. He’s making others try to enter another way than the only Way in. Shame on him.

  184. Jackie, I pray that John Piper will turn from the evil false gospel that he is preaching and that if he does not know Jesus as his Savior, that he will hear the gospel and understand, so that he may believe.

  185. “How do you know you are saved and are a child of God? By loving Him. How do you show that you love Him? You keep His commands.”

    Honestly in a state where I could cry. I’m just so over these people.

  186. There’s that word “true” again.

    Another person who doesn’t understand that the narrow way is a person and that person is Christ. The way, truth, life. Another person who calls salvation a free gift, yet says it’ll cost you all to spend eternity with Him.

    “The True Salvation Gospel

    Christianity is not just about “accepting Jesus into your life”, having a “Christian” world-view, or being a good person, but laying down your life, by living and losing it entirely for Jesus Christ.

    Matthew 7:13-14, 21

    “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it…”

    “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.”

    The Holy Scriptures spells out the price you will pay for working out your salvation in fear and trembling. It may cost everything you have, everyone you love, and all you once hoped for.

    Salvation is free for all those who, like the thief on the cross, die with Christ. Whatever it may cost you, it is still the bargain of your lifetime.

    Matthew 13:45-46:

    “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a merchant on the lookout for choice pearls. When he discovered a pearl of great value he sold everything he owned and bought it!”

    Matthew 10:32-39:

    “Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.

    “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword.

    ‘I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Your enemies will be right in your own household!’

    “If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine.”

    “If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine. If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it.”

    After many years of following Him, through both dark valleys and over soaring mountain tops, I bear witness that Jesus has never left me cold, alone or afraid, but has faithfully guarded my heart and mind as it is stayed on Him. As the old hymn says:

    “Every day with Jesus is sweeter than the day before.
    Every day with Jesus, I love Him more and more;
    Jesus saves and keeps me, and He’s the One I’m waiting for.
    Every day with Jesus is sweeter than the day before.”

    Please join me in prayer:

    “Dear Jesus,

    Please forgive me for being cool in my faith, wobbly in my walk and fearful in my heart. I want to follow you faithfully today and every day from this day forward.

    You are first above all else, here and now, and forever and ever more. Please help me forgive others as you have forgiven me. I want to live and die in you.

    In Jesus’ Name,


    May God bless you and keep you and shine His light upon you as you follow Him.

    Stephen Wilcox
    Theological Foundations Ministries”

  187. Benchap, one sad quote says it all: Whatever it may cost you, it is still the bargain of your lifetime.

    Pastor Wilcox needs for someone to explain the gospel to him.

  188. Here is one from today:

    Man can only change his sin nature through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord making him the most important in your life. Living for him instead of this world.

    Then you will not want to do the sins you use to do (born again) . Then you hunger for God’s word of the bible. It is a very dangerous thing to trust in a baptism, church or religion to save you. Jesus came into the world to save sinners and unless He is Lord in your heart, He will not be your Savior.

    My comment: one is not born again by making Jesus the most important thing in his life, nor by living for Him instead of the world.

    This commenter says it is dangerous to trust in religion, but then appears to do it.

  189. Our works remain sinful before and after salvation. This person needs to understand that believing in Jesus Christ and finished work is the only way could ever have His righteousness/works needed to enter Heaven. So sad, this blinded one.

  190. MAN can only
    HIS sin nature
    through the ACCEPTANCE of Jesus Christ as Lord
    MAKING him
    LIVING for him
    INSTEAD of this world.

    Then YOU will not WANT to do the sins
    YOU use to DO (born again) .
    Then YOU
    HUNGER for God’s word of the bible.

    It is a very dangerous thing to trust in a baptism, church or religion to save you. Jesus came into the world to save sinners and unless He is Lord in your heart, He will not be your Savior.
    That’s a pretty big list of things this commenter is doing to save him/her self.

  191. Here is one from today:

    Thank you lord he is dead. May he burn in Hell. Jesus said himself that many people that claim to be Christian are NOT. Scalia was a racist. God’s greatest commandment was to love god and your neighbor as yourself. This commandment alone will send countless republicans to Hell. They don’t love that illegal, that black person or that poor person as thyself.

    My comment: Whoever wrote this seems to think that one is saved by his works. He seems to relish the thought of SOMEONE ELSE going to hell, based on having broken God’s commandments, even though God’s will is that all men be saved. The writer of this comment must think that he will get into heaven by virtue of having kept God’s laws perfectly.

    The Bible says we are not saved by keeping God’s laws. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith in Christ.

  192. Good post, John. I read that Mormons have a shameful history of white supremacy in their doctrine and abhorred African Americans and native American Indians. Loving people of other races and other people that are legitimately poor and oppressed and in dire straits is Biblical, but loving con artists that masquerade as “poor” and “homeless” is not. I have to admit that I have a very hard time doing the latter because of past experiences. Years ago, I remember seeing a little girl about age 7 with her little dog sitting with a sign that read, “Please help me!” The little girl was cuddled up with her dog in a blanket and when pedestrians saw her, they would put coins and dollar bills in her metal can.

    I happened to be having lunch in the restaurant next to where she and her dog were situated. When I was done I walked outside and put a dollar bill and also a gospel tract ( not a chick tract) in her metal can. I browsed around that same street for about a good 10 to 15 minutes because of all the shops that sold exotic Asian souvenirs. Then suddenly I noticed that the little girl and her dog disappeared and noticed a much older woman that looked like her stand in the same spot where the little girl was earlier. I remember seeing her empty the money that was in the metal can and she pocketed the money, but the gospel tract that I noticed that she didn’t even bother looking through, was immediately thrown out in the street.

    I said to myself, “Wait a minute!”. At that point it dawned on me that the older woman was the little girl’s mother because of the facial resemblance and it appeared that she was a con artist using her little daughter and dog to try to win people’s sympathy in order to get cash money. This type of chicanery is very common in my city. I have seen many so called “poor” or “homeless” persons carrying signs that read, “Please help, Gulf War Veteran” or “Need Money For Medicine” and other signs that are questionable. Are we as Christians to love people who are con artists who pretend to be what they are not?


    The flawed doctrine works based salvation basically says that when “We’re good boys and girls and do our works, then we are saved”, but if not, “then we lose our salvation.” That is the essence of Arminian doctrine and all other false doctrines. Asinine!

    Calvinism/LS teaches that if there is no “evidence” or “proof” of works to the end, then the person is “unsaved” and a “false professor.”

    Arminianism teaches that if there is no “evidence” or “proof” of works to the end, OR if the person falls away into apostasy and grievous sin, then the person “loses” salvation and can’t get it back.

    Calvinism and Arminianism are basically the same, but packaged a little differently. With Calvinism they have the 5 point “tulip” system and with Arminianism they have the 5 “articles of remonstrance” which contrasts with the “tulip”, but is still false doctrine.

    I mentioned before that people of all nations and of all races are born and raised in a society that forever teaches that nothing in life is free, but that EVERYTHING must be earned and achieved by our works which is true when it comes to money, possessions, and academic degrees, BUT not true when it comes to God’s free gift of everlasting life. The mentality of earning/achieving has become so ingrained and so deep seated in the minds of many that the simple promise/simple truth of John 3:16 sounds too easy and too good to be true.

    Notice what it says in John 10:33 – “We are not stoning you for any GOOD WORK,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

    The Jews of Jesus time were also embracing Calvinism/LS in that they acknowledged “GOOD WORKS” without a doubt, but they denied and rejected the fact that it was Jesus who freely gives everlasting life to anyone who comes to Him by faith alone. Jesus was performing miracle after miracle and healing after healing in their midst which no doubt verified that He was indeed God, but they falsely accused Him of being a “mere” man which shows their faulty reasoning and logic. If Jesus was a “mere man”, like everyone else, how could he perform those miracles and healings?

    The Pharisees and teachers of the Law accused Jesus of being “demon possessed” and performing exorcisms by the power of Satan in Matthew 12, and Mark 3. Then we have the Jews who accused Jesus of being a “mere man” in spite of His healings and miracles.

    John 12:37 – 37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This shows a degree of HARDNESS of heart and unbelief that is utterly astounding.

  193. Umm.. Guys…. On believers justification post.
    Did I anger someone? Because of before. I didn’t go to it because if there’s a reply from someone that’s… Annoyed…
    If I did. IF I did. It was never my intent. I feel kind of like a jerk.
    I might not come back until March. I will still read stuff on here but not comment for a while. See you guys for now.

  194. William, you asked, ” Are we as Christians to love people who are con artists who pretend to be what they are not?”

    Yes. The Bible is clear. It doesn’t say to be unwise, it says to love our enemy. It says to pray for ALL men (1 Tim 2:1-6), because He gave Himself a ransom for ALL. He loves the whole world, why should I not?

  195. William, your comments bring tears to my eyes, and that may or may not move you, but I ask you to consider these things. The outcome of our love towards one of these is not in our hands, but God determines the increase whether someone throws a tract in the garbage or not. Everyone is our neighbor. All of the lost are our enemies. Those who hate us, those who are unthankful, those who are spiteful, those who revile us, those who use us, the Scriptures are clear, God loves them, sent His Son for them and desires NONE of them should perish. With great love He died for me, He gave Himself for me, how dare I not love those who are unlovely? I was unlovely, I was an enemy of God, I was a wretch like them. But God is love, and we should be showing the same undeserved love towards others.

    For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Gal 5:14

    And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward ALL men, even as we do toward you: to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 1 Thess 3:12-13

    (Love toward ALL MEN IS fulfilling the royal law-James 2:8)

    He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 1 John 4:8-9

    God’s love is for the whole world, and His kindness, grace and love has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11; 3:4). He has given us a spirit of love (2 Tim 1:7) and it is one of the things we are to follow after (1 Tim 6:11), it is part of who we are to be. We are to love those who hate us.

    We are to love those who spitefully use us…
    And love those who persecute us…
    Love our neighbor as ourselves
    He is kind to the unthankful, should we not follow His example?
    He is kind to the evil, should we not also do the same?

    God so loved the world….

  196. “Not of yourselves”
    “Calvinism and Arminianism” and all the other ist’s, ism’s and ite’s all minister to self the old man through systems of thought. in an attempt to make the old sinful nature less sinful. when God will have no parts of the old nature God starts all over with a New creation , when a soul is born again by the precious blood of Jesus by His finished work by Grace through faith the old sin nature is made inoperative we then are given the freedom , permission to choose Life or death , spiritual or carnal .
    the old sinful nature hates that it cant help God out to live the christian life and opposes Grace
    God ask will you collapse into the finished work of Christ , Quit working, Stop being religious, drop dead and avail yourselves , Yield, appropriate the Free Gift of righteousness
    its ok Jesus is not a crutch He is more like a couch

    not of yourselves Not of works
    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    which are by Jesus Christ
    Php 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

  197. Oh for goodness sake.

    God loved Paul (a murderer of Christians). So yes, you can love a con artist.

  198. Benchap, It’s very hard for me to love those who are con artists. It’s easier said than done. The most I can do is pray for them, but nothing beyond that.

  199. Daniel, your comment – “Umm.. Guys…. On believers justification post.
    Did I anger someone? Because of before. I didn’t go to it because if there’s a reply from someone that’s… Annoyed…
    If I did. IF I did. It was never my intent. I feel kind of like a jerk.
    I might not come back until March. I will still read stuff on here but not comment for a while. See you guys for now.”

    My comment – Daniel, please don’t worry. You did not anger or annoy anyone here. You were being honest about how you felt about people in your school bullying you and I am glad that you shared. I myself, have experienced many instances of bullying in the schools that I attended. I was even bullied and despised in a CHRISTIAN HIGH SCHOOL.

    I was made fun of and bullied because of the fact that I am Asian and not white. It was stupid of the other students to do that, but it still happened despite the fact that this was a Christian high school. Daniel, when others bully or harass us, we sometimes need to speak up or take action like going to the authorities and not let idiots walk all over us. One of my former downstairs tenant’s son was bullied a lot when he was back in high school as well. He was spit on and physically assaulted because of the fact that he was Asian which resulted in his taking martial arts to defend himself. The bullies left him alone. My tenant’s son went on and became a karate champion.

    Self defense for the Christian is justified. Did you know that King David and his men were great martial artists of their time? The same was true of King Solomon and his men. ( 1 Chronicles 11:10-47, 1 Chronicles 21:5, Judges 20:17, Song of Songs 3:8, 2 Samuel 24:9.)

  200. Daniel, please always feel free to come back and visit us here at We’re still human and we all experience all kinds of trials and tribulations and I’m happy that you also shared your struggles with us.

    Galatians 6:2 – Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

  201. Daniel – definitely not even in the slightest annoyed. I too was bullied and mocked, and at a Christian High School, even by the teachers there, one in front of a whole group of high school boys (he didn’t know my hearing was so good). Still, even in the feelings, Jesus is a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief… We are just trying to point you to what He tells us in His Word, so we can do what He asks us to, in order that others may know Him.

    God bless you and give you comfort.

  202. I will try to make this easy to follow. These are excerpts from a “give and take” between two commenters about the meaning of Jesus’ interaction with the rich young ruler in Luke 18:18-23.

    Commenter A calls himself “The Colonel,” and is a Southern Baptist.
    Commenter B calls herself “Mary.”

    Neither one seems to have a clue.

    The Colonel:

    The guidance was specific to the “rich young ruler” not intended to be guidance for us all as it is never mentioned as a requirement to anyone else. (an edit here, I did not intend to say that the verse doesn’t have application to all Christians but rather that it deals with a specific heart condition addressed in 1 Timothy 6:10. My point is that you don’t have to live in sackcloth and ashes to be a Christian. The “guidance” I am addressing is that the rich young ruler was to give it all away – you don’t have to be a pauper to follow Christ but the love of money makes it impossible) The rich young ruler was looking for a formula for salvation rather than salvation itself. In order to point this out, Jesus pointed to his one true weakness, his love of his wealth.


    The problem I see is that many modern Christians, particularly far right evangelicals is they want a plan for salvation that requires little of nothing of them. They want to come to church on Sunday, give some money, pray for forgiveness and then repeat the same next week. They read the entire story you are discussing and like you dismiss it as not applicable to me. They have their home, their cars, their beach house, their club memberships, etc. etc. and they sit by and watch poor people starve every day, they watch refugees die from lack of food and shelter. Surely god does not expect them to help those people.

    I think god’s message here is being rich will not keep you out of heaven, but will make it much harder for you to get there. You should concentrate on your salvation. Not on accumulating wealth in this world. You should should spend your money on helping others, and not stash it away in your piggy bank.

    Unfortunately I think your analysis is what most Christians like. i.e. that was not intended for me. I can handle the wealth. I will be one of the “very few” rich people god pushes through the eye of the needle. I will be the exception to the rule. I can have it all.

    My comments:

    The Colonel has a misunderstanding of this passage that is very common. That is, the false belief that each person has something he must give up (his sin of choice) in order to receive the free gift of eternal life.

    Jesus was not telling the rich young ruler that he was required to give up his wealth in order to have eternal life. Rather, he was telling him that he needed to quit trusting in keeping the law for eternal life, because he had already broken it, and was therefore disqualified.

    There is only one plan of salvation. It is not “customized” to each person, based on his particular sin.

    Mary also has a misunderstanding of the gospel. God’s plan of salvation does not require that we “concentrate on our salvation” (that is, receiving eternal life is not a “work in process”). Nor does receiving eternal life require anything of us. It requires only that we trust in His provision for our salvation – Jesus.

  203. Interesting conversation you saw John. The Colonel sounds like he has been listening to John MacArthur, who tells that story in a similar fashion, his viewpoint is because the ruler isn’t willing to let go of his wealth, unwilling to forsake all, in order to enter the kingdom he says….

  204. Latest from today:

    1 Corinthians 9-11, Romans 1:24-32. If one does not believe the Words in the Bible, and abstain from such immorality, then their home after death is hell according to scripture. Just saying.

    My comment: The writer has zero understanding of the gospel. One does not receive eternal life by abstaining from immorality. One receives eternal life by grace through faith in Christ alone.

  205. Here’s something I just read today: “No one ever comes to Christ for salvation without first dealing with his or her sin.” -Clay Nuttall

    Does this not fly in the face of Romans 5:8 which says: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

  206. Jon, I agree with you completely. Jesus dealt with our sin.

  207. If our sin problem is dealt with before coming to Jesus, why do we need to come to Jesus? For what reason should we be thankful toward Him?

    The quote attempts to sound godly, but it denies the Lord completely.

  208. Yes
    And For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    And the whole doctrine of subustionary aattonment.
    The demonstrated sacrifices of the old testament.
    Oh and the the on the cross

    I smell smoke clay and it’s not BBQ chicken

  209. Johninnc – your guy quoting 1 Cor 6:9-11 and Romans 1, I had to chuckle a little because in Romans 1, they always see the ‘big’ sins, and miss that this is a list of what unrighteousness is, and avoid the ‘littler’ ones or don’t even drink them in at all…

    He better look up anything classified as wicked in the Bible and figure out, that all sin is wicked. Has he ever coveted? Been malicious to another? Envious? Hated someone (guilty of murder? Debated? Deceived (lied)? Whispered about someone? Been a backbiter? Proud or boastful? Disobedient to parents?

    The thing that I don’t think they’ve ever even considered on the list, have they or are they now ‘without understanding’ (undiscerning)? Then by their own standards, they’re a goner….

  210. Jon – Clay Nuttal is a nut.

    “No one ever comes to Christ for salvation without first dealing with his or her sin.”Clay Nuttall

    In the flesh, the old man, we are unable to ‘deal with our own sin’,

    “For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. Rom 7:5

    And it is Jesus Christ who DEALT with our sin. Once for all, by one sacrifice we are perfected (Heb 10:10,14). Why doesn’t it say, “He who comes to me (and deals with their sin), I will in no wise cast out” (Jn 6:37)? Or why doesn’t His Word say, “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, DEAL WITH YOUR SIN, and THEN I will give you rest”?

    How can sin be DEALT with? Only by the shedding of blood and it must be a perfect sacrifice, because without a sinless sacrifice, it is a temporary solution. So do they think we can somehow come to God with a temporary solution in hand and bring it to Him as some sort of sacrifice in exchange for the forgiveness of sin? Without shedding of blood there is NO REMISSION (Heb 9:22).

    These people have been drinking self-righteous Satanically blinding Kool-Aid. Forgive my bluntness here, but they are only bringing filthy rags of their own self- righteousness (Is 64:6) which comes from the law (Phil 3:9).

  211. Saw this post on Facebook today:

    I want deliberately to encourage this mighty longing after God. The lack of it has brought us to our present low estate. The stiff and wooden quality about our religious lives is a result of our lack of holy desire. Complacency is a deadly foe of all spiritual growth. Acute desire must be present or there will be no manifestation of Christ to His people. He waits to be wanted. Too bad that with many of us He waits so long, so very long, in vain. The Pursuit of God by A.W. Tozer

    My comment: the “stiff and wooden quality” about the spiritual lives of most in the evangelical church today stems largely from lack of assurance about where they will spend eternity, due to the false gospels of Calvinism and LS. Flesh-driven religious exercises and a mediocre spirituality in which the person in question draws comparisons between his or her level of devotion and commitment and those of others are the inevitable result.

    These popular Reformed theologians like to lambast people for not being devoted, committed or holy enough but do not tell them the solution, and that is to believe the Gospel with childlike faith in its simplicity and power, completely apart from one’s works, commitment, good intentions or worthiness. They are like the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:4:

    “For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers”.

  212. Here are a couple that I came across today:

    1. I am a man of faith. I believe that God is loving and forgiving of anyone’s sin of any kind when the person repents, and turns from the sinful action. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, “Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.” The last part is critical, it requires a change of direction in her life.

    My comment: You claim to be a man of faith, but faith in what/whom? One does not have to change direction in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    2. I don’t hate Trey, and love him, and will pray for him, but this lifestyle he choose will lead straight to the Gates of Hell. His sin is equal to me telling a lie, or having hate in my heart to another person. No sin is to big for Christ to forgive! Lord has endless grace and mercy! I’m a sinner saved by God’s Grace and Mercy and Christ has changed my life! I’m not saved by dead religion, or by good works, but by receiving the gift of salvation through the love of Christ! John 3:16

    My comment: This was in response to an article about a Christian performer coming out as gay. The commenter is right that no sin is too big for Christ to forgive. The commenter says that he is not saved by dead religion, or by good works, but by receiving the gift of salvation through the love of Christ. However, the commenter says that the lifestyle that Trey chose will lead to the gates of hell. It is not consistent to both believe that eternal life is a free gift, received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, while simultaneously believing that one’s lifestyle will determine his eternal destiny.

    And, while it is great that Christ has changed the commenter’s life, what if his life changes back? Believing in Jesus as Savior does not require believing that He will change your life. It requires believing that He paid for all of our sins at Calvary.

  213. Two comments that highlight the typical beliefs of the modern “Christian”.

  214. Benchap, what is is really sad is that these two comments were some of the least virulent of the LS-laden, condemning comments.

    Most were focused on Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, with either no mention (or scant mention) of the grace of God, available through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

  215. Benchap, here is another, from today:

    Christians who follow Christ would warn them that continuing to practice such behaviors will send them right to hell (per the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11)…

    Furthermore, Scripture cites a warning for those “Christians” who approve of such behaviors in Romans 1:32.

    My comment: Behaviors do not send anyone to hell. One doesn’t have to do anything to go to hell. Whoever does not believe in Christ is condemned already (John 3:18).

    Romans 1:32 is not a warning for those “Christians.” It is part of a sweeping passage that lets every single person in the world know that he is a sinner under a death penalty, and therefore in need of a Savior.

    The commenter is advancing and defending a false religion of works that he has mistaken for Christianity.

  216. John, my favourite remains “real” or “true Christian”, terms used by people who perceive themselves as saved because they are “trying to follow God” or “don’t sin habitually” etc.

    They don’t need Christ, they’re righteous!

  217. Ben, I know what you mean. I have tried to remove that stuff from my vocabulary.

    If you haven’t already seen it, you might like the article on this subject, linked below:

  218. yea heres one concerning “following ”
    There is a singing group coming to the fundamentalist church i once attended . So I looked up their statement concerning the gospel for salvation

    *That each person when presented with the Gospel must then choose who they will follow (Matthew 19:16-27, Joshua 24:15, John 3:15-17)

    My comments below :

    ​choose who they will follow
    Really ?​

    Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    1Co_1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

  219. Curtis, wow!

    So many want to come up with their own gospels.

  220. Following is a rather long-winded interpretation of James 2:14 that is simply Lordship “salvation” under the guise of grace:

    The bottome line, true faith will result in works. Works alone do not save, works are the natural result of true faith. Love is much the same. As Christ stated, love for Him will result in doing the things He commanded. To say you have faith in Jesus and do nothing about it is to make a false claim. We are saved by grace through faith as the Bible teaches. As a result of faith we do those things God has asked. Abraham and Rahab did the same. Can faith save someone who claims to have faith but does nothing about his claimed faith? That is the question of verse 14, and the answer is clearly no. If the person really has faith, his faith would drive natural actions. Jesus said “not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” – Matthew 7:21. Again, those who claim to have faith, but fail to do the will of God, the natural reaction of true faith, have no home in heaven. Notice the action words that result from true saving faith.

    My comment: How would someone ever have assurance of eternal life? It would have to be based on his self-assessment of whether his combination of good works and behavioral reformation proved his faith. Alternatively, he would have to draw assurance from his intention to be faithful (faith in his good intentions – and there is an old saying about good intentions). Or, finally, he would have to believe that his faith in Christ was going to result in good works and behavioral modification, and when the good works and behavioral modification were manifested in sufficient quantity/combination, that would confirm his circular belief. And, if those confirmatory actions were lacking, he would have to go back to square one and “try to believe in Jesus again.” Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

  221. That’s horrible but much too common. I wish I had a nickel for every time (in the past year alone) that I have heard Matt 7:16 and 21 used incorrectly. A fruit fad has over taken politicians and television talking heads and even “discernment” websites. Of course they always skip v15 and the last part of v18. And the fact that the people referenced (Matt 7:21-23) do not deny Jesus as Lord but they do deny him as Savior (the narrow gate) by proclaiming their own works (the wide gate) is completely lost on them.

    James’ questions have nothing to do with the eternal destination of the believers he is addressing (1:18) but concerns the here and now as evident by v15-16. Faith can be dead but it is still faith just like my car battery is still a car battery when it is “dead”.
    If people would spend as much time searching scripture for evidence of their conclusions as the spend searching themselves for evidence of faith much confusion could be avoided.

    Thanks for keeping an eye out for this stuff John.

  222. RAS, here are excerpts from another person who thinks that believing in Jesus as Savior entails believing that he WILL change your life. This is similar to e-mail traffic that I have received that basically says that to insist that a person’s life may not change when he becomes saved is tantamount to having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof (2 Timothy 3:5).

    The power to sin no more lies in truly believing or knowing who God is and his divine nature. By “being like Jesus” is to tap into the power of the spirit of God/Holy Spirit. Truly having the spirit of God completely indwell in you will make you no different than Jesus…

    A misunderstood point about salvation. Salvation is a “life long endeavor” and not an instant ticket into the kingdom of heaven/God by saying some magical words like “I am a sinner, come into my heart and forgive me.” Admitting that I am a sinner and always will be if not for the power of God within you is just the start or turning point from heading toward death to heading toward a new life/birth into growing into a “fully mature” Christian/imitator of Christ/God.

    A mature Christian will be able to follow/imitate Jesus and his disciples/apostles to be able to “sin no more.” This is not some unattainable goal, but is an expected state of “being” that all truly mature Christians should be able to practice and uphold. “Sin no more” is not only possible but expected of us if we are to enter the kingdom of heaven.

    My comment: This comment was written in response to a thread on the woman caught in adultery. The commenter does not appear to understand the gospel. He is confusing imputed righteousness (which one receives when we believes in Christ alone as his Savior), with lifestyle. He is conflating believing in Jesus as Savior with believing that Jesus will change one’s behavior. Since a change in behavior is not necessary to prove one has eternal life, there is no way that believing in the inevitability of a changed life is a necessary part of becoming a believer in Christ.

    Further, the commenter does not appear to believe in eternal security, but rather seems to believe that justification is a process in which one allows Jesus to “change his life.”

    Finally, the commenter is internally inconsistent. The Holy Spirit permanently indwells all believers in the church age (although Jesus’ encounter with the woman caught in adultery is prior to the start of the church age, which makes the commenter’s comment all the more errant). Yet, if that makes them no different than Jesus, why would they need to follow or imitate Jesus?

  223. Yikes! That’s more severe than the first. Maturity equals impeccability? The apostles sinned no more? It might not be a new one but it’s at a level I rarely encounter. As you mentioned it contains the common conflations and the typical inconsistencies of LS though. Thanks for sharing.

  224. Some are more subtle. Like this:

    Sin, pride, and rebellion, which won’t be in Heaven, versus obedience, humility and submission, which would be the heart conditions that lead people to either receive redemption through Christ, or not. Everyone is a sinner. But sinners who aspire God’s heart end up saved through Christ’s death. Sinners who want God of their own free will will also want to go the way of obedience, humility, and submission.

    My comment: if by “obedience,” the commenter means “obeying the gospel” (by believing it), I would agree. If by “humility,” the writer means to understand that one cannot save himself, I agree. And, if by “submission,” the writer means submitting to Christ’s righteousness versus seeking to establish one’s own righteousness, then I would agree.

    Otherwise, obedience and submission could mean agreeing to obey Christ and to make Him “Lord of our lives” in order to receive eternal life. If either of those things are intended by the writer, that would make her gospel a false gospel of works.

  225. hear is another subtle one i just picked up on when relistened to a sermon and challenged me to repent (change my thinky about Christ Jesus) The pastor challenged me that calvanist and the like will use “sinners like you and me” in witnessing . Because they cant say christ Jesus died for all because You may not be an elected one

    “Sinners like you and me ” Now that sounds good and there even is a song wrote about it. The works for or because of salvation loves it for it appeals to the flesh . However what did Paul Preach ?
    “that Christ died for our sins ” our means our Paul included himself with them all to the saved and unsaved .
    “sinners like you and me ” Now that is a pretty slick twist on a gospel that is not The Gospel

    1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

  226. Curtis, I have never heard the “sinners like you and me” line. That is really crafty, and not in a good way.

  227. John, I was thinking on the man who said, “To say you have faith in Jesus and do nothing about it is to make a false claim.”

    I guess he never acknowledged the words believer, brethren, beloved, etc. in James beforehand. And evidently doesn’t understand how we can be unfaithful. The claim cannot be false since the Holy Spirit in inspiring those same Scriptures identified them as believers and He doesn’t lie.

  228. RAS – I like that… “a car battery is still a battery, even if dead”.

    These men have never considered charging the battery to make it useful again. The remedy is, feed His sheep (that is if they love Him)…

  229. Holly, a lot of the false views of the gospel seem to hinge on a faulty view of grace. The Bible teaches that grace reflects God’s disposition (inclination) to justify a lost sinner apart from the works of the law. Most of the other views center on God providing a person power, through divine enablement, to persevere in good works that either qualify them for eternal life, or confirm that they have received eternal life.

  230. Here are two more that I found today. Both of them seem to share a common theme – that believing in Jesus for eternal life MUST also entail believing that He is going to “clean up” your life. See below:

    1. I think the most loving thing we can say to someone who is trapped in any lifestyle of sin is “God can take that from you, and heal you, and make you truly whole. It won’t be easy, or free of pain, but He will do it! For it is the only way to gain eternal spiritual life.”

    My comment: First, we can’t assume that someone “trapped in any lifestyle of sin” is a non-believer. Second, once a person believes in Jesus as his Savior, he may begin to have victory over sinful patterns in his life. But, this is by no means guaranteed. Therefore, one does not have to believe that Jesus is going to change his life in order to receive eternal life. A person receives eternal life by believing in Jesus as his Savior.

    2. Though we all fall short and are covered by the grace of our Heavenly Father, he still gives His commandments and tells of our sins that we are to repent and turn from or else warns of our destiny. We have two choices, heaven or hell, bible is clear on that. If we don’t warn our brothers and sisters, OUT OF LOVE for them then we’re not being loving. God told the woman at the well, go and sin no more…he states to turn from your evil ways. Jesus was the perfect example of how to live. He faced trials and temptations and overcame them all. He has given us that ability if we just have faith and trust in Him and allow Him to lead us by the one He left with us, the Holy Spirit.

    My comment: There is no biblical record that Jesus told the woman at the well to go and sin no more. I believe the commenter may have been referring to the woman caught in adultery. We do not receive eternal life by “turning from sin.” This is basic salvation by works religion that has never saved anyone. We receive eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

  231. One more I found today:

    We are steeped in the Western evangelical view of the courtroom metaphor, where God is the judge, we are the wicked, sinful defendant, and Jesus is our rescuer/stand-in/defense attorney. Consider the predominantly Eastern Orthodox metaphor that sin is a disease – we are afflicted with something that we cannot cure ourselves. God’s position, in contrast to an angry judge, is one of a concerned parent. He has the cure and is making it available to us.

    My comment: God’s plan of salvation through Jesus is not a metaphor, either Eastern or Western. Before one believes in Jesus as his Savior, he has no spiritual life. Once one believes in Jesus as Savior, he has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited. This is true, even if a believer’s life never changes in any way in terms of sinning less, or in terms of doing good works.

    Hence, if the commenter intends to mean that the “Eastern Orthodox metaphor” requires one to believe that Jesus is going to “change his life,” it implies that eternal life is received by one allowing Jesus to change his life. This would, by implication, be teaching Lordship “salvation” and justification by works, wherein justification is a process by which our lives are transformed (borrowed wording heavily from Clear Gospel Ministries).

  232. I love reading how they all put a different spin on it, but teach exactly the same thing.

    The Catholics point at the protestants as the protestants point at the Catholics and cults. They’re all on the same side.

  233. Here is an excerpt of a comment from another site:

    …this whole time I could be a sleeping around, lying, stealing, heck even murder someone instead of trying to live a godly life pleasing to Him and still go to heaven? Jesus died for those sins, so as long as I believe, I can continue sinning? Why on earth would I want to live a godly life then? So I can have a few more blessings here and rewards in heaven? How about I live Luke warm so I can have some blessings and still enjoy sin? I don’t want the Holy Spirit in my life guiding me, I don’t want Him to change my ways, but since I believe that he died for my sins, I’m all set for heaven? I SHOULD be making progress in my Christian life but I don’t really have to, right? That’s a gospel everyone wants. Who would turn that down? Why would anyone?

    My comment: Who would turn that down? Lots of people. Based on the commenter’s questions, it is not clear that he understands or believes the gospel. Why would anyone? Because they insist on the futility of trying to save themselves.

  234. I have just spent the last hour and a half talking to a Baptist pastor who is opening a new church down the road, i thought i could visit it, so I thought I could ring him and ask him where he stands on the gospel and as usual they agree with u that u can’t lose it. I could not get him to separate justification and sanctification, he said its part of the gospel. I told him the only evidence we need is if someone professes to understand the gospel then they are saved. EASY BELIEVISM IS WHAT THEY ARE SILENTLY SCREAMING.

    So he said, so just a profession was enough, I said as long as they are trusting in the finished work of christ. He was horrified, he said just a profession is not enough, i found him so confusing, i told him he was preaching a subtle form of works. Could not see it. He was really saying that we are justified by faith, but sanctification is part of justification, while saying we are saved by faith alone and not by works, I know there is lots of Calvanism and lordship in his current church, so how can I sit under that confusing gospel.

    A very pleasant man to talk to, I told him to re-think his gospel, I don’t think that went down to well. You can see he didn’t want me visiting his church, thought i would cause trouble, he said you must have it out with me and not the people in the church. I told him as a pastor god would hold him accountable for the gospel he is teaching , i said to him I thought, getting the gospel right was the most important thing.

    I came off the phone thinking am I being too picky, you can even doubt your position, so you have to reassure yourself that you are on the right track and be so solid on what you believe…..

  235. ‘Should be making progress’ is a whole lot different then not ‘continue sinning’. So did David and Moses lose their salvation when they murdered?

  236. Mary, we are sanctified (some call this “positional sanctification”) the moment we believe in Jesus as Savior.

    1 Corinthians 6:11: And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    But, if the pastor with whom you were speaking was referring to the process of being transformed (some people call this “progressive sanctification”), one does not have to believe this will happen in order to receive eternal life. That is because it requires our cooperation. Paul wouldn’t have beseeched us, as brothers and sisters in Christ, to do something that was required to become brothers and sisters in Christ.

    Romans 12:1-2: [1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
    [2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

  237. Holly, there is a difference between “making progress,” and “not continuing sinning.” Neither are required to have eternal life, nor assurance of eternal life.

  238. How do you do it without being exhausted? I discuss these things with people who don’t want to hear it and I walk away drained.

  239. John, had a conversation where an Anglican said exactly the same thing and couldn’t move past it.

  240. Someone brought up 1 John 2:4 as proof works (keeping commandments) plays a role in salvation:

    “If you say you love God and believe in God but live a life of complete disobedience than you are a liar. According to John. (1 John 2:4)”

    My response:

    “[It] Doesn’t say “complete disobedience”, it says “doesn’t keep His commandments”. Check out 1 John 1:8 and James 2:10. But knowing Christ isn’t a condition of eternal life, CHRIST KNOWING YOU is a condition of eternal life; see Matthew 7:22-23,”

    How do you answer this one?

  241. SoCal, obeying the gospel (believing in Jesus as Savior) is the only obedience required for eternal life. No one obeys His commandments perfectly, so obedience to His commandments cannot be a litmus test for a “true believer.” If it were, everyone would fail.

    Heaven is a perfect place, not a place just for people who are being “pretty good” at keeping His commandments.

    You make a great point that Him knowing us is what is referenced in Matthew 7.

  242. They try to make a distinction between the “commandments of the Mosaic Law” and the “commandments of Christ”. Obviously without realizing that the entire Bible is Christ.

  243. fellowship
    ye also may have fellowship
    that ye also may have fellowship with us
    1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
    1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

  244. Thanks John, he was saying that a changed life is proof that we are saved, he said someone who just makes a profession of faith, how can you know he is saved, if he does not continue in the faith. I said to him thats the only evidence, i think he has been taught the false faith vs the genuine faith, like MacArthur does. He just could not separate the justification and sanctification. These are lordshippers and I will not sit under their teachings.

    He opens a new church tomorrow morning how sad, how many people will be infected and affected by his false gospel, he thinks god has commissioned him to start this church. Lots say to me they think god is blessing Macarthurs church. At the end of the day, we don’t know if MacArthur is saved, but he certainly is preaching a false gospel and he messes up peoples lives with his poisonous doctrine. You can’t tell them, they just will not listen. Very frustrating…….

  245. Mary, I have prayed that this pastor will not corrupt minds from the simplicity of Christ.

  246. Socal, I have some thoughts on 1 John 2. I’d like to expand on the point you made on us knowing Him, vs. Him knowing us.

    3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Finish with vs. 5, keeping his words shows us that the love of God is ‘perfected in us’.

    5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

    In John 8, we are told to ‘continue in His Word.’

    31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    In 1 Pet 2, knowledge is one of the things believers are to add to their faith (vs. 5-6). In 2 Pet 3, it says we need to grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior. I kind of reflect back on Peter being asked by Jesus if he loved him (in John 21). Peter was clean, he failed on some fronts. He denied Him, and He even fell into not walking uprightly about the truth of the gospel. Anyways, I believe ‘knowing’ Him has to do with being in fellowship with Him, and growing in His grace by abiding in Him and continuing in His Word.

  247. Mary
    “I could not get him to separate justification and sanctification, he said its part of the gospel. ”

    Nice catch , that has been my experience as well with pastors who err on the gospel ,they will agree on Gospel up but when pressed it is sanctification by works and are spiritually drunk on another gospel and by using sleight desiring not to be drunk alone on frustrated grace.

    tossed to and fro, by the sleight of men
    Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

  248. John, can you do (or do you have) a post on what arguments/points you find effective in dealing with those deceived by Lordship Salvation?

  249. SoCal, the gospel itself (along with a good explanation from a source such as “The Gospel” booklet) is the best.

    I think the articles “You Might Be a Lordship Salvationist If…” (Parts 1 and 2) might be helpful.

    I would also be interested in our readers’ thoughts on those things that they have found helpful.

  250. good message on first John
    Pastor Leonard Radtke
    1 John
    Description: #5 – 1 John 2:12-15
    Date: 11/23/1977

  251. To defend the Gospel Proclaim the Gospel
    as the Holy Spirit leads and given opportunity if i sense a soul is religious I like to ask ” are my sins paid for ? ”
    another one “what is God’s standard for righteousness ?”
    I myself don’t bring up “Lordship salvation ” all souls are natural born legalist Just keep pointing souls to Jesus .finished work
    below is a teaching series by charles clough he is one simple smart cookie
    from that series i learned how to handle a tough question about homosexuality and the gospel of Grace objection “all pagan cultures had sodomy ” call it what it is it is sodomy
    see how the objection is smartly dealt with and move forward with the Gospel of Grace

    Charles Clough
    Not Ashamed Of The Gospel

  252. Amen Curtis. I also agree about Charlie Clough.I highly recommend his Bible Framework series and website (224 lessons).

  253. I tried to listen to one of Radtke’s teachings on 1 John 2, and he was so in the flesh and screaming and pounding about something with the people in his church, because he was berating and browbeating specific issues with “christians” that I had to turn him off and do a brain dump. He sounded like Paul Washer in his indignation.

    I’ll stick with Arnold, Cucuzza and Rokster.

  254. I hear you socal , the next sermon Radke settles down and admits people were having trouble following him . He is loud and goes off yes , but to equate him to Paul Washer is not fair .
    for sometime i didn’t listen to any preaching coming out of indoctrination . I had been beating myself up with religious self effort calling myself worm food being self absorbed in the depravity of man of calvinism.

  255. I’m not all that into preachers who mumble then yell. It sets off my hyperacuity, and his tone and anger at his flock really hurt me spiritually. If I was in that church I would have walked out and may have written-off his “grace” belief like I have written off Calvinism due to the manners of the Calvinists.

  256. I would prefer that we move on.

  257. John,

    I’ve noticed there’s no explanation for Hebrews 10:26 (on this page (at least one that shows up in the search), and I’ve been confronted several times lately as a ‘proof-text’ that one can lose salvation.

    This is my response.:

    In Hebrews 10, the author is contrasting the old sacrifices and the New Sacrifice (Christ). as for v.26, it’s already been explained by v.18:

    17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

    There is no offering for sin if we sin, because the sacrifice for our sin has been pain once and for all, as stated earlier in the context:

    “11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified

    As for v.27 and after, it’s talking about those Jews who were persecuting the original recipients, who no longer had a viable sacrifice for their sin, and were in fact persecuting the One and only Sacrifice left.

    Just in case anyone searches for this verse or Hebrews 10:26-27.

  258. socal, your interpretation is consistent with grace.

    I have seen grace believers with several different interpretations, summarized in the comment linked below.

  259. here is a thought to ponder are there any sacrifices under the mosaic Law for willful sins? or practicing sin it is also called ?

  260. Curtis, good point.

  261. Here is an excerpt from a comment I read today:

    God already has judged them guilty. Christians just reminds evil doers of God’s wrath & to turn from their wicked ways to his son Christ in obedience to his word for Salvation!

    My comment: If someone isn’t a believer, he stands condemned. But, it is not necessary to turn from wicked ways for eternal salvation. To think one MUST turn from sins in order to gain eternal life is not obedience to God’s word – it is a denial of God’s word.

    Eternal life is a gift, received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

  262. I’ve seen and heard that one before in local Baptist circles.

    They’ll usually follow your claim with “to turn to Christ you turn away from something (sin)…we’re not teaching works salvation, blah blah blah”.

  263. “Many of God’s faithful followers will be protected from the tribulation (Revelation 3:10). And, most importantly, Jesus promises eternal life to all who truly believe, turn from sin and persevere in their faithful obedience: “He who endures to the end shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13).

    Since we know that the handwriting is on the wall, what will we now choose to do?”

    Whenever I see “truly believe” or “true believe” it is almost always followed by a false Gospel.

  264. Benchap, me too.

    Plus, it is all Chtistians who will be raptured.

  265. Yep, that too.

    How does one turn from sins and continue in faithful obedience without believing they are meriting their salvation or seeing that they are contradicting “free gift of eternal life”?

  266. Benchap, if people think those things are necessary to have eternal life, then I agree with you.

  267. Here is an interesting tidbit from a women accused of child abuse:

    Her Christian beliefs were the “guiding values” that influenced her behavior when she punished her son on Feb. 3, according to the motion to dismiss filed by her attorney, Greg Bowes…

    She believed she needed to take “strong corrective action” to save her daughter from her son’s harmful behavior, according to the motion to dismiss. Otherwise, her son “would not earn his salvation with God after his death.”

    My comment: Based solely on the quote from the motion to dismiss (the child abuse charge), this woman doesn’t hold any Christian beliefs. No one who holds Christian beliefs would think someone had to earn his own salvation.

  268. And here is one that is really weird:

    …the Old Testament laws were divided into three categories: moral laws, ceremonial laws, and separation laws. Moral laws are always in force, but Christ’s sacrifice defers the spiritual punishment until death. Ceremonial laws were removed with his sacrifice, and separation laws only apply to the Jewish people.

    My comment: Hogwash! Christians are not under any of the OT law. Christ’s sacrifice does not “defer” spiritual punishment for breaking laws, it removes guilt and punishment for believers.

  269. Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, Please pray for me. I just came down with a severe case of food poisoning after eating albacore tuna that was probably contaminated. I’m on antibiotics right now. I appreciate your prayer support. Thanks.

  270. William, I have prayed for you, my friend.

  271. Thank you John.

  272. John, one of the big deceptions of Calvinism and Arminianism is that believers no longer have to keep the ceremonial laws or the separation laws but must keep the moral law for salvation. Both Christ (Matt. 5:22 and 28-30) and Paul (Romans 7:7, 3:19, 20) made it clear that the moral law condemns everyone and cannot justify a person before God.

    Also, my prayers for William for a speedy recovery.

  273. No, we the church are not under any law. Hebrews explains the New Covenant made the first, old, it is decaying, vanishing away. It is obsolete. Now the law was given to Israel through the first prophet Moses. Jesus is our Priest, Prophet and King. Below is an article John and Jack graciously reprinted about the law, not sure how up to date, there is so much on that it would take multiple articles.

    As for ‘no more sacrifice’, there is no more sacrifice, even though those priests stood daily ministering to it, sin had been taken away by the final sacrifice, the Lamb of God, the sacrifice that God promised to provide, Jehovah Jireh. We see it in Abraham’s offering of Isaac. We all willfully sin, probably more often than not in the beginning of our walk and so to say a sacrifice which perfected us forever is being spoken of is just poor interpretation.

    Arminians often read that sacrifice as speaking to a believer (whether Jew or Gentile) that willfully sins. What is spoken of here I believe, is the persecution of Jewish believers who are considering going back under the law, the sacrificial system, the old way, in favor of not suffering at the hands of the non believing Jews. To give into that pressure would be trampling the Son of God underfoot and counting His blood an unholy thing. There would be consequences, both in this life and at the Judgment seat of Christ. Fear because these believers knew better, yet this would be a fall from grace (similar to those in Galatia) and they would be back into bondage. Many of us can relate to times in our lives where we lived in fear for that very reason.

    Here is the link if any want some Bible verses regarding the fulfillment of the law, who it was given to, etc.

  274. Praying you feel better William, I surely can relate.

  275. Holly,thanks for posting the link to that excellent article.

  276. Outstanding article you linked to Holly, thanks

  277. I tell you, I think it’s very late (Come Lord). I just had an internet conversation (on a secular site) with someone calling them self HumanExtinctionIsTheOnlySolution. After getting past the crazy arguments and digesting the moniker it hit me… wow …that is what the Gospel is all about: Human extinction IS the only solution— human regeneration is the only means and Jesus Christ is the only WAY. The seed was sown…what type of soil? I’ll have to wait to see (not in the Calvinist sense).

  278. Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, Please continue to pray for me. My condition has gotten worse and is not responding to the meds I’m on. I have not been able to sleep all night and have been praying the whole time and I’m scared.

  279. William, I have prayed for your healing and relief from anxiety.

  280. William, praying for you too.

  281. RAS – the article is basically just a compilation by me of His Word, but of course you know that is what is good in it. I am with you, I surely feel as if time is so short, sometimes it seems very peaceful, at other times such turmoil, but looking forward to that day of our gathering together in the clouds to meet Him.

  282. Following is a quote from a CNN political article I read today:

    Christ left room for all to redeem themselves and we should extend the same courtesy, even when it’s difficult — in fact, especially when it’s difficult. The already redeemed don’t need us to remind them about God’s grace, an unearned, unqualified favor available to anyone.

    My comment: no one has ever redeemed himself. This quote completely contradicts itself.

  283. Today I saw an article on Facebook entitled, “R.C. Sproul explains why it’s imperative to hold fast to the doctrine of justification by faith alone”. Isn’t that a bit like a prostitute lecturing a group of high school kids on the importance of sexual purity? There is no clearer example of how Calvinists have hijacked the Gospel.

  284. Keith, yeah – based on Sproul’s previous body of work, he doesn’t come across as understanding grace.

  285. The following quotes come from eminent Calvinist apologists that show the connection that Calvinism has with Roman Catholicism.

    1) Richard Muller – “John Calvin was part of a long line of thinkers who based their doctrine of predestination on the Augustinian interpretation of St. Paul.” In his book, “Christ and the decree” 1988 page 22.

    2) Alvin Baker – “There is hardly a doctrine of Calvin that does not bear the marks of Augustine’s influence.” In his book, “Berkouwer’s Doctrine of Election: Balance or Imbalance” pg 25. 1981,

    3) Gregg C. Singer – “The main features of Calvin’s theology are found in the writings of St. Augustine to such an extent that many theologians regard Calvinism as a more full developed form of Augustinianism.” In his book, “John Calvin: His roots and fruits” , 1989, pg. viii

    4) B.B. Warfield – “The system of doctrine taught by Calvin is just the Augustinianism common to the whole body of the Reformers.” In his book, “Calvin and Augustine”, page 22, 1956.

    5) Loraine Boettner – “Calvin and Augustine easily rank as the two outstanding systematic expounders of the Christian system since Saint Paul”. In his book, “The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination” page 405, 1932.

    6) John Calvin himself – “Augustine is so wholly with me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings” In the book, “Calvin’s Calvinism:”A treatise on the eternal predestination of God” written by John Calvin in 1552, Translated by Henry Cole, page 38, 1987.

    7) B.B, Warfield – “Augustine is in a true sense the founder of Roman Catholicism” In his book, “Calvin and Augustine” page 313, 1956,

    It was Augustine who invented his own twisted interpretation of “PREDESTINATION/UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION” in his book, “City of God”. Augustine states,”That owing to one man all pass into condemnation who are born of Adam unless they are born again in Christ, even as He has appointed them to be regenerated, before they die in the body, whom He predestinated to everlasting life, as the most merciful bestower of grace; whilst to those whom He has predestinated to eternal death, He is also the most righteous awarder of punishment.” – “The City of God” On the Soul and its Origin – 4.16

    Again, it was Augustine who invented “IRRESISTIBLE GRACE” in his book, “The City of God” – “On the predestination of the saints” -7, 8, 16.

    Augustine errantly believed that the will of God became the cause of all things – In his book, “City of God” – under “Enchiridion” – 95, 96, 100, 101.

    Augustine errantly believed “that no man is saved unless God wills it.” In his book, “City of God” – under Enchiridion – 103.

    It was Augustine who invented what is now known today as the 5th point of Calvinism which is “PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS”:

    Augustine states, “We, then, call men elected, and Christ’s disciple’s, and God’s children, because they are to be so called whom, being regenerated, we see to live piously; but they are then truly what they are called IF they shall abide in that on account of which they are so called.” In “City of God” – “On Rebuke and Grace” – 22.

    Augustine states, “It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children–whom He has regenerated in Christ–to whom He has given FAITH, hope, love, God does not give PERSEVERANCE also.” – In his book, “City of God” – “On Rebuke and Grace” – 18.

    Augustine states, “But they who fall and perish have never been in the number of the predestinated.” – In his book, “City of God” – “On Rebuke and Grace” – 36.

    Augustine errantly believed that salvation can be lost and he taught that only those who are regenerated by God and PERSEVERE, or in those that have lost their salvation that only after they “persevere” that
    the grace of regeneration is restored, are finally saved. – In his book, “The History of Christian Doctrines” – Louis Berkhof – page 136, 1937.

    Now, does not all of the above sound like what Calvinism currently teaches?

    Augustine’s version of “predestination”, “irresistible grace”, and “perseverance of the saints” sounds identical to what MacArthur, Piper, and what Sproul teaches which are 3 of the biggest names in Calvinism/Lordship Salvation today. Are they not? Is that not what Calvinism teaches? Calvin’s idol was definitely Augustine.

    The Bible teaches that God “predestinated” people who have willingly believed on Christ and His finished work on the cross and are saved to be transformed into immortal physical bodies of FLESH/BONE at the Rapture when Jesus returns which is a future aspect – 1 Cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:16-17 These will be eternal physical bodies just like Jesus resurrected physical body described in Luke 24:39, 1 John 3:2. Christ’s resurrected physical body is the prototype of what all saved Christians will be transformed into at the Rapture.

    The Biblical passages on predestination like Ephesians 1:4-5, 11, and Romans 8:29-30 all need to be read in light of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. and 1 John 3:2. What Augustine and Calvin did was take Ephesians 1:4-5, 1:11, and Romans 8:29-30 in ISOLATION and eisegeted those texts and read their “theology” into the text falsely teaching that God “picked and choosed” whom He saves in eternity past and whom He damns in eternity past and that there is nothing man can do about it. Is this not identical to the Islamic belief of FATALISM? Is it not identical to Stoicism’s belief in determinism? Are these not all the same thing, but under different names?

    In regards to true Biblical election, God elected those that are already saved for SERVICE/MINISTRY. God “elected” Moses to lead His people, God “elected” Abraham, God “elected” King David, God “elected” King Solomon after David, God “elected” Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles, God “elected” Simon Peter to be the apostle to the Jews, etc, etc. God did not “elect” people for salvation/damnation in eternity past which Calvinism falsely teaches.

    “Irresistible grace” is refuted with Acts 7:51. The Pharisees and the teachers of the law resisted Jesus in Matthew 12, Mark 3, and the unbelieving Jews resisted Jesus in John 10:33, and John 12:37 despite His miracles/healings in their very presence. Jonah resisted God. The Pharisees accused Jesus of being “demon possessed” and performing exorcisms by the power of Satan. The unbelieving Jews in John10:33 accused Jesus of being only a “mere man” despite His miracles which verified that He was indeed God in human flesh.

    “Perseverance of the saints” which is Augustine’s original twisted concept is also refuted with Scripture. King Solomon did not “persevere” at the end of his life, but became a serial polygamist and demon worshiper – 1 Kings 11. Does that mean that Solomon was “never saved to begin with?” NO.

    Christians who don’t persevere and who even die in that state are still eternally saved.

    John 10:28-29 – 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

    Romans 8:38-39 – 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    2 Timothy 2:13 – 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    Saved Christians are not kept eternally secure because of their own faithfulness which will always be susceptible to faltering and failure, but they are kept secure because of an UNFAILING SAVIOR.

  286. William, your explanations of what “election” and “predestination” really mean, when taken in their proper context, are very helpful.

    And, you are right that Calvinism and Roman Catholicism share common roots.

    According to the “Grace Chart” that accompanies “The Gospel” booklet by Ron Shea:

    “Bilateral contract salvation” and the “Perseverance of the Saints” are two separate but interrelated doctrines within a complex theological system of salvation by works, which relies, at its core, on redefining the word “grace” as some sort of mystical empowering substance. This theological system is set forth in Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, Part 1 of the Second Part, Questions 109-114, “Treatise of Grace,” a 12th century manifesto of Roman Catholic Theology. In Protestantism, it is known as “Reformed Theology” or “Calvinism”.

  287. William, my prayers are with you that God will help you to recover from this food poisoning. It is encouraging to read your above post on the false doctrines of Calvinism. I hope this informative post is a sign of your recovery.

  288. Yes, those are very interesting parallels between Roman Catholicism and Calvinism. If a person doesn’t like RC, no problem, Satan has something else for them.

  289. Phil R. Thanks so much for your prayers for me. I am pretty much recovered after taking the antibiotics. It was a pretty bad case as I literally lost 8 pounds in one week! I was going to the restroom about 20 times a day!

  290. Keith, Well said. Roman Catholicism is the mother of all whores – Revelation 17:5 who is drunk from the blood of all the martyred Christians of the Inquisition – Revelation 17:6. Calvinism/Lordship Salvation, Arminianism/Lordship Salvation, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witness doctrine, Pentacostalism, Lutheranism, Methodism, and Presbyterianism, are all the whore daughters as they all deny eternal security/once saved always saved. Satan basically repackages the same thing under different names.

  291. John, good post, also.

  292. William, I might also add Baptists and MacArthurism.

    Also, was the food poisoning from the canned Albacore tuna or the tuna packs? I’m going camping at the end of the month and i like these small tuna and salmon packs that don’t require refrigeration unless they are opened.

  293. Phil, The albacore tuna that I ate was fresh caught in the ocean and I ate it raw, sashimi style, but it was delicious. Eating raw fish can sometimes be risky as the bacteria or whatever is in there is microscopic. I’ve been eating raw tuna fish for 33 years, but this is the first time this happened to me. I never had a problem with canned tuna before when I make tuna sandwiches.

  294. Thanks William, I pray you will fully recover.

  295. It looks like Augustine was the one who originated Calvinism’s “gift of faith” heresy that John Calvin later copied which is still a major part of Calvinism’s perverse doctrines. Monkey see, monkey do on the part of Calvin and all Calvinists.

    From Augustine’s shoddy book, “City of God” – “ON THE PREDESTINATION OF THE SAINTS and ON THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE, book 1, chapter 16:

    Chap. 16.—Why the gift of faith is not given to all.

    “Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God’s gift; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to some, while to some it is not given. But why it is not given to all ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glorieth may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in the Lord. But why He delivers one rather than another,—” His judgments are unsearchable, and His ways past finding out.” For it is better in this case for us to hear or to say, “O man, who art thou that repliest against God?” than to dare to speak as if we could know what He has chosen to be kept secret. Since, moreover, He could not will anything unrighteous.”

    Notice how Augustine throws in Romans 9:20-21 at the end part of his defense? Modern day Calvinists always throw in Romans 9:20-21 in defense of their position, but their eisegesis will always be refuted with 2 Timothy 2:20-22, Jeremiah 5:18-19, Jeremiah 16:10-12.

  296. William, the Augustinians/Calvinists have it all wrong. If God had not been willing to save us, he would be a different god. He would not have all of the attributes that the God of the Bible possesses.

    The Calvinist god is not the God of the Bible.

  297. Also William, the Calvinist interpretation of Rom 9:20-21 follows from their interpretation of Rom 9:13 in which individuals are seen and not nations and love and hate are seen as heaven and hell. We can’t be having Christians supporting Israel the harlot…therefore Jacob represents the elect (the Church now) and Esau represents all those Christ chose not to die for :Simple deduction. Yuck!

  298. John and RAS, Well said!

  299. Phil R, Thanks for your prayers for me. I’m feeling much better now. Praise God!

  300. William – glad you are well, food poisoning is just awful, would not ever like to repeat that. God bless you.

  301. I started a paper on Augustine, I start a lot on a lot of people, it keeps me from having to store it in my head 🙂

    Anyways, please note the last one on the short list. His ‘conversion’.

    Saint Augustine (of Hippo) November 13, 354 – August 28, 430 ACE
    • “Christian” Neoplatonist (oxymoron), philosophy, dynamic panentheism 1
    • Father of Calvinism-doctrines of grace,
    • Doctor of the RC Church, Roman Catholic Bishop, North African Bishop
    • Foremost Amillennialist (prior to Augustine, considered heresy)4. Arbitrarily made the millennium, non-literal.5
    • Philosopher, (Romanized Berber Philosopher2), Medieval Philosophy1, Greek Philosphy1,
    • Thought to be the true originator of “Calvinism”.
    • Idolized by Calvin who cites him about 1000 times in his “Institutes of Christianity”
    • AKA Augustine of Hippo, Augustin(no ‘e’), Aurelius Augustinus, St. Augustine
    • Manichaeist , studied Manichaeism for about nine years.
    • Monk who formed the Monastery in Hippo in Northern Africa. Took on the Monastic way of life before his ‘conversion’.
    • Brought a non-literal spiritualistic approach to interpreting Scriptures. 5
    • Replacement theology, making the church Israel, said “Jewish people should be treated unmercifully”. 5, 13
    • Augustine’s teachings were systemized by Calvin
    • Not saved by the hearing of the gospel, but two stories, and a child’s voice, that kept repeating (in French) ‘take up and read’. Neither stories, nor the two verses in the Bible (he read at the end), had anything to do with the gospel. More of Ouija board Bible understanding. 3, 12

    It just goes to show that Satan who blinds the mind of these from the gospel is their god. He will save them instead by pre-regeneration (the gift of faith enabling them to believe the truth, thereby diminishing the power of the gospel to zilch).

  302. Holly, Thank you. Good paper on Augustine. I wanted to add that Augustine had 2 mistresses during his early years and had one illegitimate child, named Adeodatus from the first mistress – in the book, “Augustine of Hippo” by Peter Brown, page 39, 1967. Augustine later dumped his first mistress and took another – “St. Augustine of Hippo” – Gerald Bonner, pg. 71, Philadelphia, The Westminster Press, 1963.

    Also originated the following heresies:

    1) “Purgatory” in the book, “Immortality” by Loraine Boettner, pg. 135, 1956.
    2) Taught that sex was the great sin behind human misery – Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology on “Augustinianism”, page 58,
    3) Taught that sex was always shameful – City of God – On Original Sin – 2.42.
    4) Taught that sex was sinful if not for the purpose of procreation – City of God – On the Morals of the Manichaeans – 18.65.
    5) Advocated the use of force/violence in dealing with “heretics” who did not agree with him – City of God, “On the Correction of the Donatists” – book 4, section 17, section 18, book 5, section 19, 20, book 6, section 21-24. His advocating the use of force is responsible for the genocide of millions of Bible believing Christians during the Inquisition. See also Philip Schaff, “History of the Christian Church” vol. 3, page 144, 1910.
    6) Taught that the “Virgin Mary” was sinless and promoted her worship – “History of the Christian Church” volume 3, page 1021, 1910 by Philip Schaff.

    7) Intercession of the saints – “History of the Christian Church” , pages 434-435, 441.

    8) The use of relics and the miracles attributed to them – “History of the Christian Church” – pgs. 459-460

    Augustine states the following regarding the use of force/violence:

    “Why, therefore, should not the Church use force in compelling her lost sons to return, if the lost ones compelled others to their destruction?……” in City of God, “On the Correction of the Donatists” – chapter 6, section 23.

    Since Calvin idolized Augustine and was his ardent admirer, Calvin emulated his master’s ways when he ruled the city of Geneva with an iron fist imposing and enforcing his Calvinist doctrine through floggings, imprisonments, banishments, torture, and burnings at the stake. Every aspect of life in Geneva was under his tight control including the way women wore their hair, jewelry, the number of dishes allowed in the kitchen, etc. Calvin was a control freak.

    Augustine also states the following regarding the Catholic Church:

    “The Catholic Church alone is the body of Christ, of which He is the head and Saviour of His body. Outside this body the Holy Spirit giveth life to no one, seeing that, as the apostle says himself, “The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us;” but he is not a partaker of the divine love who is the enemy of unity. Therefore they have not the Holy Ghost who are outside the Church.” – Augustine in City of God, “On the Correction of the Donatists”, 11.50.

    Well, folks there you have it, Augustine who is the father of Roman Catholicism and Calvinism, often praised by many Calvinists.

  303. William, the Southern Baptist Covention has been steeped in Calvinism since it’s very inception.

    The revered “prince of preachers” Charles Spurgeon was a dyed in the wool Calvinist.

    Much of what the world knows as “Christianity” is warmed over Galatianism, codified into “church” doctrine throughout the ages by such people as Augustine, Calvin, Spurgeon, MacArthur, amd legions of their predecessors and successors.

  304. Thank you William, it’s not my paper, just a short paragraph, I separated his writings into another, but I’ll save those on it, thank you, shall I source you?

  305. Holly, Sure be my guest.

  306. Here is one from today:

    God has chosen his elect. read the Gospel of John. those whom he has called come to him joyfully. if someone backs away, they were never called! also, we know His true church is invisible hidden within the secular church. so when numbers are mentioned know they cannot be

    My comment: God did not choose who would receive eternal life and who would not. Also, the Bible does not teach that if someone “backs away,” they were never called.

    The Bible teaches that anyone who believes in Jesus as Savior has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.

  307. And, here is another from the same thread:

    Or……If you are not a fruitful you’re condemned

    My comment: The Bible does not teach that being “fruitful” is required to have, or to prove that one has, eternal life.

  308. John, Yes, fruit is not an accurate indicator of whether or not one is saved. Many devout Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc, bear “fruit”, but are clearly not saved. Many philanthropists, humanitarianists, the Boys/Girls Scouts of America, and even some atheists bear good “fruit”, but are clearly unsaved.

  309. They usually get that thinking about fruit in not understanding John 15. Obviously they have not read 2 Pet 1:5-9 .

    5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

  310. I read an article today entitled “Americans & Evangelicals Misunderdtand Basic Christian Doctrines – Fail Theology 101,” by Eric Metaxas.

    While the article had some good points, Metaxas said: “Folks, if we hope to preserve not only evangelical faith in the generations to come, but also the “mere Christianity” expressed in the Nicene Creed, we have to take theological instruction seriously again.”

    My comment: the Nicene Creed fails to mention that Christ died for our sins. Perhaps that is why so many people in”churchianity” are trying to save themselves by “turning from sins,” “putting Christ on the throne of their life,” and so on.

  311. Following is an excerpt from a reader comment to the Metaxas article:

    The ‘church’ is not a denomination, it is the group of followers who believe Christ is the son of the one true God, believe he sacrificed himself for forgiveness of sins and in whom we continue to trust in for salvation and to help us live our lives.

    My comment: Not true. The church is the group of people who have believed in Christ alone as Savior. This does not require “following” Jesus in discipleship, continuing to trust in Him for salvation, nor trusting in Him to help us live our lives.

  312. Eric Metaxas wrote the book about Bonhoeffer. I address him in this article. His pastor is (or was) Tim Keller. He spoke at the presidential breakfast years ago and was appointed to Breakpoint when Chuck Colson died. Haven’t followed him, but I did confront him when he came to Scottsdale years ago about Bonhoeffer’s denial of a literal, physical resurrection of Christ. He said it was an ‘internet rumor’ after he looked back at his Alliance Defense Fund buddy.

  313. Holly, thanks for the link to the Bonhoeffer article.

    I thought I remembered Metaxas as having been the author of the Bonhoeffer book.

  314. Here is one from today, in response to someone who wrote that both Islam and Mormonism were of the devil:

    We are all entitled to our opinions but before saying BOTH of those religions are of the devil you might want to take a look at the day to day actions of mormons. To me all of their morals and actions are christ-like in all of the catholic & christian views of a God. They’re some of the nicest, most selfless & giving people I know. They give so much to not only Americans but other countries as well. If thats being of the devil then you’ve set your bar of being christ-like at an unreachable height.

    My comment: The writer of this comment appears to believe that works qualify someone for eternal life.

  315. For the past week I have been engaging with two individuals through the internet. The first one claims to be a new Christian, a member of the RCC. Of course his gospel is that of the RCC i.e. that justification is a process and that process is through the RCC. I explained the gospel to him; that Jesus paid the penalty for sin on the cross that that those who believe in Him for everlasting life are justified, will not into judgment and are gifted everlasting life the moment of faith. This conversation continued with us going through scripture (John, Romans, and James etc). He seem to start to understand when I pointed out that Jam 2:24 was talking about two different justifications, one by faith before God and one by works before men and that Jam 2:21,25 showed that justification happens in an instance.

    Then the second individual joined the conversation and he took exception to the word “penalty” for sin. He denies imputed sin and therefore a penalty for sin. The sum of his argument is that Christ died to give life to the dead not to pay a penalty, Adam was not under the law, he himself was never under the law so neither he nor Adam bore guilt they we simply dead until being given life.

    This conversation centered in Romans 5 and Genesis 2-3. He did not deny the cross or the need for life or claim to be sinless but he was denying guilt in Adam’s transgression because neither he nor Adam was under the law. He claims that “And the Lord God commanded the man, saying” (Gen 2:16-17) was “instructional” not a commandment or law because the only law is the law of Moses and sin is not imputed where there is no law.

    Now first of all I believe this person is wrong. He could not explain why justification was needed if death was the only thing separating sinners from God. He could not explain how by one man came death but not guilt yet by One Man come life and righteousness. He could not see that laws change while God’s standard remains the same. He said that my position made Rom 5:12 a lie. What I fear, and why I kept at him and will keep at him is that this individual seems to hold some clout with many of the posters at this particular site as an authority. This was evident in many of his responses to me. He claimed “I only express to you what the scripture actually says” and tried to mire the conversation in Greek and the rules of grammar. When scholarship was used to prove him wrong he claimed the scholarship was based on eisegesis and not a clear reading of the scripture. He called me a legalist, a baby Christian in danger of going the way of the RCC, JW’s, Mormons and Word of Faith teachers. He said I was in danger of wanting to become God. Now as silly as those things sound they were mixed in throughout his responses with reasoning (faulty reasoning) that could make it seem reasonable to many who see the truths he proclaims yet miss his errors.

    Why am I bothering any of you with this? Well I’m not sure but it’s not for my glory or brains (a small 3 pounder). I guess it’s because this is the first time that I can recall ever seriously engaging with person who firmly denies imputed sin yet claims to believe in salvation by grace through faith alone. I have now heard the argument, seen the proof text. I am processing what took place and this is my favorite site to do so.

    thanks for listening.

  316. RAS, I know of people who do not believe in imputed sin who believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. However, I think they still believe that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins (our personal sins, not the guilt of Adam’s sin imputed to us).

    The Bible is replete with passages regarding sin against God, prior to the advent of the Mosaic Law.

    It is useful to look at Romans 5:12, and Romans 5:18-21 apart from the parenthetical break in Romans 5:13-17.

    [12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    [18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    [19] For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    [20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
    [21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    The parenthetical Romans 5:13-17:

    [13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    [14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    [15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    [16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    [17] For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

    I understand it as follows:

    Adam did not have eternal life when he was created. If he had ever had eternal life, he could not have lost it.

    He had life, which he lost when he sinned. All descendants of Adam lack eternal life and are sinners under a death sentence – both physical and spiritual. Adam, once he sinned, and all of his descendants, need the life of Christ, which is received by grace, through faith in Christ.

    I am also aware of others who hold that Christ did not die to pay the penalty for our sins. I think that this view is wrong, and that scripture clearly teaches that Jesus atoned (paid the penalty) for our sins.

    Romans 4:24-25:

    [24] But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
    [25] Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

    Romans 5:11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

    1 Corinthians 15:3: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

  317. Thanks John
    I suppose it’s not necessary to believe in imputed sin to be saved. I think it is strange to deny that by one man’s transgression (Adam) death and guilt came to all men while accepting that by One Man’s death (Jesus Christ) life and imputed righteousness (justification) is given to those who believe.

    I agree that Adam did not have everlasting life when he was created but he also had no guilt. There was no death but there was the capacity to die, hence the commandment. Both death and guilt are from Adam. Both life and righteousness are from Christ. The position of this fellow is that only death is from Adam, not guilt. Guilt is our own but our guilt is not legal because we were never under law therefore no penalty—just death. He can’t justify getting rid of justification but he cannot tell me what it for if sin does not carry legal guilt.

    The guy is free to have his opinion but I was in the middle of witnessing to another and he basically told the other guy that I was teaching a false “legalism” gospel by saying Jesus paid the penalty for sin. Otherwise I would have let him think he was wise in his own estimation. Anyway it was a first for me.

  318. RAS, you are not teaching a false legalistic gospel.

  319. Here is one from today:

    Evangelicals believe Jesus dies for your sins so you can pretty much do what you want in this life. Kind of like a get out of jail free card. There are people sitting in prison who would love this arrangement.

    My comment:

    This commenter is suggesting that Evangelicals believe that Jesus died for our sins SO that we can sin. We were already able to do that. Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead SO that we could have eternal life.

    Those who understand and believe the gospel know that behavior has no relevance in whether or not someone has eternal life. Rather, they know that whoever has believed in Jesus as Savior has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.

    This “arrangement,” also known as God’s plan of salvation, is available to everyone, including those in prison.

  320. RAS, if you have not considered them already, here are some passages which I think show that unbelievers are under the guilt of the law unless and until they believe the Gospel.

    Jeremiah 31:29-30: “In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge”.

    Jeremiah 31:34: “And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more”.

    Matthew 5:21-22 and 5:27-30 teach that the law heaps condemnation on those who attempt to justify themselves before God by keeping it, which is the condition of the unbeliever.

    Romans 3:19: “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God”.

    Matt. 5:18 states, “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled”. I think the fulfillment of this is at the Great White Throne judgment, where those who rejected the Gospel are judged according to the law (their works) in Rev. 20:12:

    “And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books”. Note that this takes place right before the old heavens and earth pass away and the new heavens and the new earth are created in chapter 21.

  321. Thanks Keith
    I was unable (in the discussion) to use the OT or Jesus’ teachings since Israel was under the law. I did cite Rom 3:19 and 4:15, 5:14 which speaks of transgression but it was unconvincing to the individual I was speaking with. I am loving studying this subject deeper.

  322. RAS – interesting conversation. Job says that Adam hid his transgression. The Gentiles are said to be without the law, yet have the law written on their heart. Which law since there were many Gentiles besides Adam, Abraham wasn’t even a Jew, nor Isaac. I wonder which Bible translation he uses, in some of them Hosea says Adam broke the covenant. Maybe your friend is also not dispensational? Anyways, keep doing what you’re doing, using His Word, they need it. Awhile back Jack and John reposted this article I wrote regarding the law, mainly it’s just a list with Bible verses, maybe something might nudge you if you take a look.

  323. John, that’s pretty typical that they accuse us of licentiousness, cheap or ‘greasy’ grace, or call us antinomians. I don’t remember who it was here that brought up this portion from Romans 3, but it appears that Paul and the others were accused of the same thing.

    7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
    8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

  324. Thanks Holly
    The conversation has continued. I believe he has never really thought this through and now his pride is keeping him from admitting that Paul said (Rom 4:15) for where there is no law there is no transgression and (Rom 5:14) according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam. He has set Rom 5:13 as his fortress and is/has been convinced that law always means the Mosaic Law. I think it is for pride and fear of being wrong that he throws these barbs that loosely hint that the gospel I am teaching is the same as Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and other apostates.

    I believe he is using the KJV and he is some sort of dispensational, maybe hyper. By reading his other comments I can see that he is strongly pre-tribulational. He is also a Pelagian, denying any sin nature but only sin choice and he counts all sin (gentile sin) as idolatry and Adam’s sin was idolatry (some truth to that) not a transgressing of a commandment (no truth to that). He seems to be Free Grace yet he believes that saying Jesus paid the penalty for sin leads to works salvation (law keeping).

    Anyway thanks for the encouragement and link to your article. I have read it and it is wonderful. The Job quote is quite useful in this debate. I must say again that this conversation with him has given me a greater appreciation for the integrity of scripture and a deeper understanding of our guilt and Jesus’ sacrifice as the spotless Lamb of God.
    Thank you all

  325. The internet is full of hard fruits that believe in:
    flat earth
    holocaust hoax
    hollow earth
    Oswald was innocent
    moon landing faked
    CERN opens door to abyss / black hole , demons unleashed
    firmament found in Antarctica
    government hiding extraterrestrials
    hell at earth’s core
    9/11 inside job

    And even if they bring the gospel, their testimony is in shreds. Alex Jones of Infowars is a case in point. Truth on the internet is rare.

  326. Jason, agree. Truth on the internet is rare, just as it is in “churches.”

  327. RAS – I love how the Word continues to feed us or give us seed to sow. I am pretribulational and dispensational but not hyper which is another thing altogether. All we can do is lay the Word out and pray they might hear. Thankful something I shared from His Word helped. God bless.

  328. “Justification is not by works, but no justified man is without them”.

  329. Ben, the quote that you provided is basic Lordship “salvation.” It is similar to “man is saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.”

  330. Ben – obviously justified men can be barren and unfruitful (lacking works) – 2 Pet 1:5-9. In every epistle we see the believers at some point being instructed regarded not only their lack of works but what they need to do in order to walk in the Spirit.

  331. One from a comment to an article in today’s New York Times:

    The basic tenet of Christianity is that someone died on the cross for everyone. Anyone who voted for _______ is not a Christian.

    My comment: Christ died for our sins and was raised from the dead. It wasn’t just “someone.”

    Further, God transcends politics. This partisan version of works salvation is just as insidious as any other form of works salvation. This comment is, in and of itself, a denial of Christ.

  332. So true John…

    I’ve watched and been saddened to see similar false statements…

    “If you voted, you are a part of this world and you are not saved”…

    “If you didn’t vote, you are not saved”…

    “If you voted for ____________, you are not saved”…

    “So and so (in politics) IS a Christian because __________ (followed with a false example of what being born again includes).

    “So and so (in politics) IS NOT a Christian because __________ (followed with a false example of what that person does not ‘prove’ as being a ‘true’ born again person).

    I kind of reflect back to Daniel and think on how some of these people might have judged and related to Nebudchadnezzar.

  333. Holly, yes. So many litmus tests, arranged around the test givers’ individualized versions of self-righteousness.

  334. I want to warn of a very strange theology I encountered (see Nov 2016 comments for background). Not sure what it is called maybe “Death to Life” theology. Death to life is a Biblical concept it is the truth about believing in Christ for life but there is much more to this theology as I found out through conversations with one persistent (and I mean persistent), cunning, adherent.

    I mentioned in November that this propagator is articulate and prolific and seemed to hold some clout with less mature believers. This past week, to my surprise and delight, some other posters began confronting him with his errors (more on them later) and they filled me in on his history of causing divisions on this particular board. He pushed back, very cleverly rebuking and blessing us in each response. He showed he had a working knowledge of scripture (so does Satan) and cunningly disguised the fact that his definitions of death, sin and justice among others were different than the rest of us. He would post scripture changing verb tenses; he would equivocate and inter weave words. He would scorn others for inferring from scripture while his whole theology is based on inference (of course if we equivocate and inter weave words it’s easy to deceive even ourselves).

    Errors: He does not sin now and the only sin he was guilty of was unbelief. Israel? now they were sinners, unless they kept the law perfectly (and some did he claims). Of course keeping the law does not give life he says (Free Grace bend).Man is basically good, maybe a little naughty and telling others that Christ died for their sins is an error. Christ died to give life to dead gentiles who have one sin (idolatry/unbelief) and dead Jews who have many (see they were under law).

    I am a little shaken (maybe more than a little) by this encounter. I was encouraged by the push back of others. Did I mention that this guy is persistent? I feel like I have encountered demons.

  335. RAS, never heard this one. Sounds like a good one to avoid.

  336. Following is an exchange of comments I read today:

    First commenter: I love Jesus. _______ does NOT love Jesus. He loves himself and this world. Worldly people will NEVER enter the kingdom of God. That’s the whole reason Jesus came, to teach us how to enter the Kingdom. Amen!

    Second commenter: Glad you are a believer but as a believer you should know that by accepting Jesus even the worldly are saved. And for the record that is without exception.

    First commenter: Yes, if they believe in Jesus and that He IS the true living son of God! If they believe that, then it doesn’t matter how worldly they are…IF THEY REPENT!

    Entering the kingdom is something that happens during meditation. Those that think about the world, money, tasks, work, kids, etc…can never enter it.

    My comment: you can’t make this stuff up. The first commenter appears to believe something, but it does not appear to be the gospel of Jesus Christ. By his criteria, no one would ever get into heaven.

    The second commenter was correct.

  337. Aye guys. I’m not sure what happened but please pray for me and my family. Our CO Alarm was making beeping at times for the past two days.
    I’m Frightened.
    My faith in the lord can waver at times and this is one of them.

  338. Daniel, I have prayed for God’s protection for you and your family, and for you to not be frightened.

  339. One from today, in response to an article about the senseless killing of a hippopotamus at a zoo in El Salvador:

    I hope the animals that did this realize that God is not so forgiving of this type of sin…

    My comment: God is just as forgiving of this type of sin as He is any other type of sin. One is either forgiven of all of his sins or none of them.

  340. Here is one from today, under the monicker of “idon’tknow:”

    Wrong. Either your actions show you are a Christian, or they don’t…

    After someone posted that it was by faith, not of works, “idon’tknow” followed up with:

    Faith without works is dead…

    My comment: “idon’tknow” doesn’t seem to know (the gospel).

  341. Daniel, I had a Carbon Monoxide detector that was constantly doing that until I moved it to a different outlet in the same room. I pray it’s just an error like that.

  342. John, these kinds of comments are straight out of the mouth of the accuser of the brethren. I had one use this portion from James, “I’ll show you my faith by my works”. I marveled that he could not see his quick anger, his accusations towards others, his lack of humility. If I was looking for faith by his works, he’d be in trouble.

    I wish they would learn to look at the book of James in its entirety, and understand who this is addressed to and why…

  343. Today I read the following comment in response to a Ligonier (R.C. Sproul) “Ministries” article entitled “What do Americans believe about God, salvation, and the Bible?”:


    My comment: Heaven is not a goal but a gift which is immediately given to all who place their faith in Christ for eternal life (Romans 6:23).

  344. Keith, agree. Sproul is bad news.

  345. I came across this little “gem” today:

    Note: I am not against people seeking God in other Christian churches. I am a former Protestant myself. But if you want “full strength Christianity” and not a watered down or muddled version of Christianity, you must seek Him in His Catholic Church.

    My comment: a believer becomes a member of the universal church at the moment of belief. There is no “muddled version” of Christianity, but there is plenty of false doctrine being promulgated and perpetuated by “churchianity,” including the Catholic Church.

  346. John, I agree that a believer becomes a member of the universal church at the moment he or she believes the gospel. And, contrary to the assertion of the poster you mentioned, it is becoming less and less important in which church one seeks this “full strength Christianity” as the poster understands it, since he or she likely partakes of the same aberrant doctrine whether it is found in the Catholic Church or some Protestant denomination, just maybe in a different form.

  347. Keith, I think so too – Catholicism and watered down Catholicism, both aberrant.

  348. This was not on the internet, but on the TV show “Everyone Loves Raymond.” The entire episode was about why Raymond wasn’t going to Catholic Mass. The “comedic drama” came when Raymond’s father told Raymond’s children that Raymond was going to hell because he wasn’t going to mass. Raymond’s wife asks him if he is still Catholic, and Raymond replies something to the effect of “nobody outgrows being a Catholic.”

    Following is a synopsis of that episode, from Wikipedia:

    Ray does not want to go to church, and his entire family is disappointed. When Ally makes a picture of him in hell, because of skipping church, he decides to start going to the church regularly to make his father happy. He then realizes that his dad is a usher who never really sits through the mass.

    My comment: Sad, abject denial of the gospel.

  349. I saw this on Facebook today:

    “The Life Recovery Bible is today’s #1-selling recovery Bible and is based on the 12-step recovery model. It was created by two of today’s leading recovery experts, David Stoop, Ph.D., and Stephen Arterburn, M.Ed., to lead readers to the source of true healing—God himself”.

    My comment: What’s wrong with the KJV?

  350. The Life Recovery Bible , based on NLT and NIV as far gone from Truth as those two versions are Yet there still is enough Truth in them for a soul to be without excuse BUT not an excuse to keep using them.

    God is not in the recovery business , God starts all over again with a Brand New Creation a New Nature . God declares the Old Nature Dead in Trespasses and sin worthless..
    If the apostle Paul was to offers to help paint the walls of your house he would show up with bulldozers and heavy machinery to start all over again at the foundation’s. That’s How the Word of God does recovery

  351. What’s wrong with the 1984 NIV? Is one modern translation not enough? No, they also need the the NLT, the Life Confusion Bible, gender neutral verions, and the Mess.

  352. Following are three internet comments regarding the apparent suicide of Aaron Hernandez. Each of them contains false doctrine:

    Did he not realize suicide is a one way ticket to hell according to Christianity?

    My comment: This comment is patently false and reflects a view that eternal life is merited by works (in this case avoiding the commission of suicide). Further, there are no two-way tickets to hell.

    I pray for the souls of everyone who has died in this tragedy.

    My comment: praying for people who have died is a waste is time.

    It doesn’t matter if he had the entire New Testament written over his body…He did NOT have the Word of God written in his heart.

    When God saves a great sinner (like me) He puts His Spirit within you and then you have an entirely new outlook on the vanity of the things of this world and you become a new creature with your heart set on heavenly things and you would not, nor could you ever come to kill yourself no matter how dire your circumstances may be.

    You would share the mercy of God via His gospel of salvation with whomever you could until the very day you die or until Christ comes.

    Very sadly, this guy died unsaved.

    My comment: This is just more self-righteousness from someone who presumes to judge another person’s eternal state.

  353. John and Keith, interesting story of Raymond and that episode. Very realistic account of the Catholic church, the ‘good’ Catholics and the ‘bad’ Catholics (naughty or nice) and the basic underlying ‘truth’ of that church and it is, belong to the church, be active in the church, give to the church, go to mass frequently, confess your sins to man, do good deeds in order to save yourself from more time in purgatory, and pray for the dead (much like your commenter on the suicide). Paul said ‘they’ pray for the dead to rise again. But ‘we’ (believers) know there is only one way, and Jesus has already told them. Jesus is relegated to a second place with His mother somehow the true god of that church. There is a sense of pride in belong to that ‘church’ but later so many of them will find they did wonderful works and cried Lord Lord, but that will never justify them, and by then it will be too late.

  354. John, I haven’t really followed sports for a long time, but my husband semi filled me in on the murders and apparent suicide. Only God knows what has happened, and if Aaron ever believed upon Him. Samson committed suicide (along with others) but we know he was commended for his faith. David murdered, and it really was particularly heinous in that this was his friend, and he had his friend’s wife. Yet we know where David is. Satan has blinded their minds I am afraid, or they have been bewitched and are in bondage to a false gospel.

  355. I am very confused i started off thinking i am eternally secure but i dont know i have read many websites with massively varying views and they all seem to make very good points. there are many verses in the bible that seem to teach you must turn from sin to be saved but you guys make good points too im so confused i am just sitting here on my bed void of any happiness or peace i dont want to burn for eternity. if it is by Christ’s sacrifice great but i have been strugggling with sin for months and i cant shake the thoughts that its too late and i should just give up.

    i need help… but i dont know what that help could possiblt be……….

    every time i subscribe in my mind to a certain theological view i keep thinking “but what if i am wrong and still on my way to hell”

    do i have to pay restitutions for past sins? or do i not?



    “well you have to turn from your sins”

    “well it’s by faith in Christ alone”

    “it’s by faith inChrist but that faith must be a working faith”

    “you need to turn from your sins and atone for all your past sins”

    “you need to confess your sins and make sure you dont miss any”

    “you need to stop sinning completely, you need to be perfect”

    i was regenerated 7 months ago…… i have been struggling with sin and the only theological position that provides me any comfort right now is grace alone. but there are so many compelling arguments out there to the contrary and now i am just confused and dont know where to turn

    i know all the different positions inside and out but i dont know what to choose!

    i need a smoking gun type revelation here. SOMETHING THAT CAN JUST PROVE TO ME ONCE AND FOR ALL WHAT IS RIGGT!


  356. Brad, from your previous comments, I think you know the truth. I would suggest that you stop letting the devil play “devil’s advocate” with you.

    You said: I was regenerated 7 months ago…… i have been struggling with sin and the only theological position that provides me any comfort right now is grace alone. but there are so many compelling arguments out there to the contrary and now i am just confused and dont know where to turn

    My comment: The reason that grace is the only theological position that provides you any comfort is because that is the only way anyone could ever have any comfort. There are no compelling arguments out there to the contrary. None of them are true.

    Remember this: when you are feeling confused, it is not God’s work. God is not the author of confusion.

    Please pray for wisdom and stop playing internet roulette! I have prayed for you, Brad.

  357. Brad, the “smoking gun” revelation that you seek is that Christ was raised from the dead.

    Romans 4:25: Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

  358. Brad
    False and weak doctrine will affect us and infect us because that is what False teaching does.
    We are all on different levels of growth and there was a point for me coming out of indoctrination of false teaching I needed to shut all down and learn to Trust the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me in Truth and Stop Trying to Learn what I already Know. Simply rejoicing in that I know I am saved and Eternal Life is a present possession and a future hope no matter what.
    My Sins are paid for passed present and future no matter what.
    one of the things for me to get over was some of the same verses i knew that had me bound were same ones to set me free In my Thinking.

    Context, Content , Compare , Conclude

    but there be some that trouble you

    Gal 1:6  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 
    Gal 1:7  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 

    God is not the author of confusion
    1Co 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 

    Study to shew thyself
    A Worker Approved by God
    2Ti 2:14  Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 
    2Ti 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

  359. What John said
    “Please pray for wisdom and stop playing internet roulette!”

  360. Brad, I feel for you, that could be me talking. I’m sure many others here empathise; they’ve been through/go through that stuff.

    Kind of see it that this website, at it’s very least, helps to stem the growing tide of mental health problems prevalent in society (mainly among Christians and the religious perhaps) and at it’s best, points people to the true Gospel of Christ and eternal life through Him, as intended.

    I do wonder if mental asylums aren’t full of people terrorised by false doctrines, loaded with ‘intolerable burdens’ as Jesus described. I’ve always assumed those burdens were emotional/psychological.

    Guess it’s no conicidence that since visiting here regularly and also going to Yankee Arnold’s live feed often, my fears have greatly subsided. Was thinking about this just last night; how good that is. But oddly, that thought/realisation caused me to nose-dive into a panic such as you describe above and kept me awake for hours! Probably satan taking his opportunity – he so slippery.

    But, thank God, that hasn’t happened for a good while so it’s getting better. I guess it’s the steadying effects of hearing sound doctrine. We’ve been so loaded down with the other c**p all our lives we’re starved of it.

    Anyway that’s all mainly my emotional reaction to your post; John’s comments above are the meat and I for one appreciate them.

    ‘Playing internet roulette’ – yep, been there, done that. Got the scars to prove it.

  361. that not of yourselves
    that not of yourselves
    Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 
    Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    that not of yourselves

    “There is a form of self-righteousness which leads many believers to doubt their acceptance with God because of their imperfections which they find in themselves.You may say, “But ought I not to have misgivings when I find my spirit and the state of my mind so contrary to that which befits a Christian?” That you ought to judge yourself, and be humbled before your Father about these things, is most true; BUT it is in no wise true that your righteousness and acceptance with God. depend upon yourself, or are measured by your condition or conduct. To have such a thought in the mind is really to suppose that you could be in the favor of your Father by being worthy of that favor in yourself. It is simply self-righteousness.”

  362. john i know my past comments have been on point with free grace but i could just as easily espouse a works-based doctrine because i have looked at all theological doctrines so closely.

    the simplest doctrine by far in my findings is faith alone. it makes the most sense.

    here is my issue:

    as (obviously) solid as you all are on the beliefs you hold, i am still very new to this. there are many verses from the bible i have come accross that (on the surface) teach a works-based salvation.

    i should be collecting them. the ones that talk about having to follow Christ and keep his commandments. the ones in Romans 2. as i said there’s so many ways to consider these verses and on top of this confusion i am being tormented with the thought that i am not saved anymore my parents are totally puzzled and i have no job or friends my dreams at night are just always about a better time in my life and i wake up and just feel terrible i feel like my life is over but it isn’t. (content removed by administrator, due to focus on specific behavior that is not relevant to the discussion).

    i wish i never went back to sin i remember 7 moonths ago how good everytging was it was like i came to life for the very first time everything was fantastic …i. even got a seasonal job! right after Christmas i fell into (list of specific behaviors removed by administrator, due to irrelevance) and it just kept happening.

    i am rambling i know but i literally have no one else to talk to

  363. Brad, the moment a person believes in Jesus as his Savior, he is declared righteous by God, on the basis of Christ’s righteousness. He is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and kept saved by God the father, by Christ Jesus, and by the Holy Spirit. He has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.

    I think the Bible is true. As such, it cannot contradict itself. The Bible says God cannot lie. Accordingly, He cannot contradict Himself.There are three tenets taught so clearly in scripture that the only way they could be refuted by other scripture is if either the Bible was not true, or if God were a liar. Those three tenets are:

    1. Eternal life is a FREE GIFT – received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
    2. Eternal life is eternal – it can never be lost or forfeited.
    3. A person can have assurance of eternal life based SOLELY on God’s promises.

    I can tell you that you are not alone in having the enemy attempt to undermine your assurance in the truth of the gospel by having you read or consider interpretations of scripture that seem to contradict any of the three tenets listed above. Satan attacks each of us at our weakest points, and at our weakest moments.

    Some of his specific goals are:
    1. To plant seeds of doubt and despair in order to rob you of
    the joy and assurance of your eternal life.
    2. To lead you astray in order to keep you from growing in the
    knowledge of the truth, and
    3. To keep you from sharing your faith in Christ with others.

    (Source: “The Gospel” booklet, by Ron Shea)

    We can protect ourselves with God’s armor, not our own. (See Ephesians 6).

    Brad, you said: i wish i never went back to sin i remember 7 moonths ago how good everytging was it was like i came to life for the very first time everything was fantastic

    My comment: You have to realize, that as fantastic as your life seemed to be during that time, you had not achieved sinless perfection. You still had the flesh with which to contend. You may have stopped or curtailed certain behaviors, but you still were not perfect.

    Since perfection is required to get into heaven, it must be based on imputed righteousness from Christ, not our behavior, which can be fickle, and will never be perfect while we are still attached to our bodies in this lifetime.

    Brad, I would focus on this:

    Is Jesus God in the flesh? Did He die for our sins (all of them – past, present, and future)? Did that include your sins – past, present, and future? Was He raised from the dead, proving that His payment was accepted?

    The “what if I?” questions need to be turned back and met with “what DID Jesus do?”

  364. Why are we told to confess our sins for forgiveness if Jesus already died for all of our sins? Fellowship?

    I need to stop (insert unspeakable sin here) otherwise this whole situation will just get worse.

    I thank you for your prayers and responses. God bless you.

    In times like this i like to remember the examples of Lot and the Corinthian church as reasons why I haven’t lost my salvation. Yes i am aware that you believe a person cannot lose salvation but in this situation where i am plagued with those thoughts it is a nice reassurance.

    Also I know full well i have a new nature, and that that new nature is Christ living in me.

    The regeneration i experienced 7 months ago was unmistakable. It was like there was an added element to my life i had never experienced before. I had a new line of thought and a sense of fulfillment totally independant of this world.

  365. Brad, please find link below in which I attempted to answer your question a little over a month ago.

  366. Comment 3 about the suicide sounds irrelevant or even contradictory. The vain things of this world are the things that keep you attached to the world, not the rash acts that take you out of it. As misguided as suicide is, the suicide committer has seen the vanity of it all and has had enough of it. There are things worth living for, and not all is vain. It is possible to be heavenly minded and hell bound by trying to earn heaven and not trusting Jesus.

  367. Brad wrote:
    “john i know my past comments have been on point with free grace but i could just as easily espouse a works-based doctrine because i have looked at all theological doctrines so closely.”

    God is NOT a system of Thought! . If and when a soul goes searching for god in a system of thought that is were they will remain ever searching and NEVER coming to the Truth resisting the Truth.

    2Ti 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 
    2Ti 3:8  Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 

  368. Why I Am No Longer Free Grace
    Published on Oct 25, 2013
    JB Hixson shares his insights into the free grace movement based upon his experience as a founding board member and first executive director of the Free Grace Alliance, and his seven-year tenure as administrator and faculty at the largest free grace educational institution in the world.

  369. Brad
    I can empathize with your feeling of isolation and I can vouch that this site is a good place to talk. As Curtis said, God is not a system of thought, but He is also not the author of confusion. Most systems are formulated and held to by assuming certain passages say what the system (which comes first) says those passage say. It is system first then you will understand scripture for some people. I was told this exact thing this week. The reason I cannot understand why faith must be gifted and works must follow true faith is because I don’t understand “the system”.

    Think about it, any system that says justification has not taken place if faith is not followed by works has not separated justification or faith from works even if they tell you “we do not believe in works salvation”, that is system double talk and their last resort will be to appeal to the mysteries of God and Rom 11:33. And don’t you know that the mysteries of God will always be opposed to a plain reading of the text and in harmony with “the system”.

  370. Brad:

    I agree with John, when I felt that way I’d pray and ask the Lord to show me in His Word. When I’d run across certain passages that were difficult, I’d pray again, and tell Him I was wanting Him to show me, and I knew if I did my part (studied with His approval), He’d show me in due time. Or maybe it was just about me learning how to answer the accuser of the brethren. One thing you must do is be a Berean, look up all the Scriptures, take your time. Look up people’s proof-texting in context and ask the right questions — the who, what, where, why, when, how, etc., and when in doubt, look for other Scriptures to confirm what you believe it’s saying. So when you have doubts like the above you posted, take time to answer them one by one by looking up Scripture, you and the Lord.

    God does not give us a spirit of fear right? So if He wanted to show us something, we need to ask where will we find truth? (Jn 17:17). We need to not only mark, but to >>>AVOID those places that are full of the voice of the accuser. These things are not the voice of the Shepherd, these are not things He has said in His Word, this is where being built up in His Word is so important (Acts 20:32).

    When we are in the ‘strong meat’ of His Word, we are more able to exercise discernment between good and evil (Heb 5:12-14), so exercise your senses. Keep at the needed thing, the good part (Lk 10:38-42), remember everything He said, it will not be taken from you. The Holy Spirit will bring it to your remembrance. Pray for more things, He’ll direct your paths. He told those who believed to continue in His Word (why?) so they would know the truth and the truth would set them free (Jn 8:31-32).

    Well free from what? Weren’t they already set free when they believed? Yes, they were already freed from the sting of death, the penalty of sin as eternal separation from God. BUT, we still struggle because we , have to PUT OFF the old man, we need to offer ourselves as living sacrifices, but for me, it can be several times a day. Just get back up, because He has done the work. Ask Him to help—He will. We can get into bondage by going into fear and allowing bad doctrine (law) to infiltrate our thinking. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. We are cleansed by taking heed to His Word (Ps 119:9-11), that is the truth that sets believers free. 1 Tim 4:16 instructs and already saved Timothy to take heed to the doctrine SAVING both Himself and his hearers. Saved from what? They were already saved eternally, so saved from what?

    Eph 5 tells believers how Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it, and that we are sanctified and cleansed by the washing of the water by the Word, why? So HE might present to Himself a glorious church, no spot, nor wrinkle or any such thing. It goes back and forth between husband and wife and Christ in the end of the chapter. We are Christ’s body, He loves us and nourishes us. He is able to keep us from stumbling and present us faultless on that day (Jude).

    Get into studying the Word, choose to do it with His approval in mind (2 Tim 2:15), knowing as we seek Him, we’ll find Him, ask, seek, knock. He will not give us a stone or a serpent. All good gifts come from Him. He does not make it hard, people do.

    Rest in Christ, what He has done, He is the end of the law for righteousness for those of us who have believed (Rom 10:4). Sin has no power over us, because Christ is our righteousness. Now we sin, and it affects us in the flesh, and others as well so we should do good works (Titus 3:8). But it does not affect our eternity, because He has given us eternal life, already translated into the Kingdom (Col 1:13, John 5:24). You need to look up and build your own arsenal of Bible verses so you can answer the enemy when He comes in to accuse you, as Jesus did, ‘it is written’ (Matt 4).

    Sorry this is so long, hope it helps. In Christ, Holly

  371. Brad you asked why are we to confess our sins. Many even here don’t really see eye to eye, but here is my take on 1 John.

    It was written to believers.
    The purpose statement so that their fellowship with God and others would continue and that their joy might remain full.

    One thing we all agree on, (I believe) is that it has nothing to do with positional forgiveness. Our new man, the one that is eternal, is washed, sanctified and perfected forever by one sacrifice (Heb 10:10, 14). By one sacrifice, one offering only are we forgiven positionally, He washed us in His own blood (Rev 1:5).

    But, as we tend to do in the flesh, we may recognize one sin and deal with it, but we might stubbornly refuse to recognize another, we do not agree we have a problem with ________________________. Do we hate someone? Then we are not ‘doing’ the truth. Do we walk in darkness? There are some things we need to recognize at times that may be hampering us, either with other believers, or with our walk with Him. It’s not God shutting us out, but us shutting Him out, and our sins do so easily beset us, and when we agree with Him that it is sin, we are more able to lay it aside. One of mine that wasn’t as obvious as the other sins that others could easily spot was thinking I was pretty good. After all, I didn’t curse, I didn’t do this, that, and the other. But that in of itself is offensive, it is pride and we can have God resisting us then (1 Pet 5), so therefore we are told to humble ourselves under His mighty hand. I know we can have a tendency to not see things we do, and I believe it is when we say we do not sin, it’s the sin we need to agree with God and humble ourselves in agreeing/confessing it.

    I do believe some teach it as some sort of laundry list prayer and you were somehow only forgiven for past sins. ALL our trespasses were forgiven at the cross (Col 2:13-15). All we needed to do was believe upon Him as our Savior (Christ and Him crucified), and resurrected of course, and we receive complete forgiveness for our sins. White as snow. Hard to comprehend, but we’re speaking of the supernatural here, not the natural, not the hand we can hold out and see, but the truth we can hold onto because He spoke it, and we believed His testimony of His Son, and He is not a man that He should lie.

    It is not by our feelings, or our experiences, which cannot be trusted because those are our flesh, but it is because He has said so, and He has done so. It is His Work and it is His Word. That’s it.

  372. Agree that no one has to confess sins to receive eternal life, as that would be inconsistent with salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    Following is an extensive excerpt of the link that I provided earlier:

    Most of our commenters believe that 1 John 1:9 instructs believers to continually confess their sins to stay in fellowship with God. As such, the confession of sin would be an acknowledgment that we had allowed our flesh to manifest itself.

    There are several interpretations of 1 John 1:9 that I have come across that are consistent with grace, including:

    1. It is written to believers, and is a reference to their acknowledgement, in having come to Christ for eternal life, that they were sinners in need of a Savior. It does not relate to needing to confess sins on an ongoing basis to maintain fellowship.

    2. It is written to believers, and refers to confessing sin as a necessity for maintaining fellowship, or at least close fellowship, with Christ.

    3. It is written to nonbelievers who do not understand that they are sinners, in need of a Savior. If they are going to come to Christ for eternal life, they will have to come to the realization that they are sinners, in need of a Savior.

    4. It is written to both nonbelievers and believers. For nonbelievers, it is a call for acknowledgement that they are sinners in need of a Savior. For believers, it is either a call for the ongoing confession of sins or a continued acknowledgment that they have not reached a state of sinless perfection.

    We have had extensive discussion of this topic at Expreacherman, and our commenters have registered their views as to their interpretations of 1 John 1:9, together with their reasons for coming to those interpretations.

    I do not want to start that discussion afresh.

    For a good overview of that discussion, start with the first link and finish with the last link below:

  373. And, here is one in response to an article regarding the death of “Happy Days” cast member Erin Moran:

    Seek the Lord and His forgiveness today while you still have the breath of life in you. lest you perish in your sins and come unto the great judgment.

    Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, repent of your sins, turn from the world and the sinful ways of the world and follow Him is the message of the Bible.

    To do otherwise and to continue in your worldly ways will surely bring you at last to eternal ruin and damnation.

    My comment: This is a false gospel of works. Has the commenter repented of his sins, turned from the world, and the sinful ways of the world to follow Jesus? Has he done so perfectly?

    Eternal life is not received by repenting from sin, turning from the world, or by following Jesus. Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

  374. Oh, it is so terribly sad to me to see those types of comments, both for the commenter and the hearer…

  375. Hobbs, it is a load of ‘c–p’ or dung as Paul put it. Religion and learning can put us up in front of men and lift us to an important position, but without the truth it is nothing but dung, no matter how important to others.

  376. Holly, I keep registering them, because they are indicative of what is passing for “christianity.” I am hopeful that if readers see the various twists and turns that the religious have invented to corrupt the gospel, that it will help to make the truth of the gospel more clear.

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