The Gospel According to Internet Comments

The false gospels that pervade our churches are reflected in comments that show up in response to articles on the internet. Whether the subject is moral, political, or religious, “defenders of the faith” can be counted on to respond with their versions of how people can receive eternal life.  I have rarely seen anyone who gets it right.

Following are some examples that I have garnered over the past few months. The comments are in italics, and my responses are in bold:

Jesus Christ, the Son of God loves you! As a matter of fact He loved you soooo much that He came to Earth and lived a sinless life and died on the Cross for your sins and if you Repent of your sins and accept Him as Lord and Savior, then you will be saved. Jesus Christ loves you! 🙂

 My comment: Repenting of your sins is not a requirement for eternal life.

…I have a changed life and heart after turning my life over to the god of the universe. I struggled for 20 years to obtain these changes to no avail. His word did the work that I could not. If you really want proof I can tell you how to obtain it, but you have to really be serious. If you are joking around it won’t work. If you really want to know and if God is real and He proves it to you will you give him the rest of your life? Will you make Him your God? If you are serious, God says that when you seek him with all of your heart you will find him. You must be willing to give up everything. If you are willing He will answer you. The God I serve cannot lie. Willing to take me up on it? I will lead you every step of the way.

My comment: We are not saved by giving God our lives. We are saved by believing that Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, died for our sins, was buried, and was raised from the dead.

 It is also clear that there are those who don’t like rules, don’t want to be judged, and want unconditional forgiveness. Jesus didn’t say there wouldn’t be any rules. Jesus said “if you love me, keep my commandments.” So I can understand why some would want to call me a hypocrite for pointing to the commandments. Because it causes people examine their own faults. But the bigger picture here is that Jesus paid the price for sin. He didn’t take away the rules, but He paid the ransom for breaking them if we abandon our lawlessness and follow Him. To all sinners, there is forgiveness, but it wad bought with a price, and we must repent of our sins, abandon them and walk in the light. We can’t have it both ways. We can’t serve two masters. We can’t live in sin and live for God. True Love is Jesus dying on the cross for you while you were yet an enemy of God and extending peace to you if you will surrender your life to Him and follow Him and deny yourself.

My comment: This is full of errors. We are not saved by surrendering our lives to Christ, nor are Christians under the law.

 doesn’t matter if the muslims love and follow Jesus.it doesn’t matter if ISIS loves and follows Jesus or angels.if either group is not saved and have not repented for their sins all of the above groups are lost in eternal hellfire.without accepting JESUS as LORD and savior NO ONE can be saved according to the bible which IS GODS word.it is simple really,do you believe Jesus is the son of GOD and do you believe he rose from the dead for the remittance of sins? just pray and ask Jesus to come into your heart and save you and forgive you of your sins and GOD promises in his word you WILL be saved.this is the ONLY way to heaven.see Romans 10:9,10,11,12

 My comment: We do not have to repent of sins to receive the free gift of eternal life. Jesus is Lord – we cannot make Him Lord.

______________________________________________________

The Bible says that we are saved by grace, through faith in Christ

Ephesians 2:8-9:

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If you are a “defender of the faith”, but have never received eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, click here:  The Real Story

921 responses to “The Gospel According to Internet Comments

  1. I just picked up this “gem” from an article by Matt Moore in the Christian Post:

    Striving to turn away from sin is not an optional aspect of faith; it is inseperable from saving faith.

    My comment: Striving is a work. We do not receive eternal life by works, but by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

  2. “It is well with my soul”. My appreciation for the grace in that hymn is renewed. When I search for covers, half the results are Hillsong and Bethel, yikes. I have better luck with foreign language versions. And I find the East African tune catchier. Salama rohoni is my guilt free philosophy.

  3. Thanks for your encouragement, Holly.

    3 months ago, I left this comment on Youtube: “I liked your answer. Said appropriately. My feelings exactly, and I don’t like TB Joshua at all. I agree, Jesus is sufficient. There are very few preachers that I like, and I have some of them on my playlist”. Adeola had said that Jesus is sufficient and has never disappointed anyone, and that she was not recommending any prophet or preacher. And two weeks ago, I received the notification that she loved the comment.

    In the last two months, two other comments of mine received similar responses from their videos’ authors.

  4. May your efforts will Ron’s tract and your words be multiplied Jason.

  5. Jason, very interesting!

  6. Here is something interesting. Brett Kavanaugh tweets a funny reflection on what LGBT and normal people think are God’s greatest gifts. My reply is one word: Grace. Recently, I pinned a tweet linking Ron Shea’s tract in two languages and a resource page of my own. And just today, Brett liked the reply.

  7. Kate – I am in awe sometimes of the people who claim they believe salvation is not of works, and turn right around and declare someone needs to turn from sin, or stop this, or promise that, etc. It’s so baffling that they don’t hear the conflict in their own words.

    But people are so used to parroting the words of ‘scholars’ and ‘princes of preachers’ and ‘famed authors’ that they don’t really even grasp the fact that they aren’t even loving, knowing, studying, storing up His Word in their heart. It sickens me for them, for those they deceive and for all who will be lost because of that deceit.

  8. Kate, I think you’re right. Religions (which are false and man-made) are all works-based.

  9. Katmazdobelieve

    As I rest more and more in His grace I see the belief systems in two categories; Grace or Works. It seems to me that all other systems, besides Christianity (and I mean true Christianity as being saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone), are works-based in some way or another.
    Maybe that is the cynical side of me.
    Idk.
    Thanks for reading,
    Kate

  10. Christina Grimmie sings “In Christ Alone” beautifully. The song is clear on the gospel. Unfortunately, her church’s website lords it up as usual with the repent of sins monkey business. Fellowship Alliance Chapel is in the same town as the Baptist church that I attended for 8 weeks and left because of romans road heresy. Christina was also tragically murdered two years ago. Her song was shared by a friend who is very busy but recently loved a Youtube comment in which I had shared the gospel.

    I wonder if most of these disappointing statements of faith were tampered with in the past ten years. It was much more common in the 80’s to hear a clear gospel preached.

  11. Jason, we see people of all political stripes trying to co-opt the Bible for political gain.

    Unfortunately, LS is very common among professing Christendom across by the political spectrum.

  12. Last weekend I was at the #walkaway rally in DC. At the end of the demonstration, I interviewed with one of the leaders, never got the name. He recorded with a device. His T shirt displayed his love for the gospel. My T shirt showed off some of my weird side. So I shared that I was saved by grace through faith. He agreed. But he had to add repentance. He obviously has sin as an object. His shirt did not tell me he is LS but words betray him.

    I used the movement as a reference point. Brandon Straka says it is about unconditional acceptance. If we who are evil know how to accept one another from various walks of life, how much more does God accept us through faith? But he was no ears. LS is fake tolerance far worse than the left.

    I have yet to stumble across the recording on Youtube.

  13. Jason, I saw that story. I think it was a non-RCC Church, but the narrative to the story was similar to the RCC miracle-oriented stories that punctuate the news sites.

  14. The Drudge Report tweeted a fake news story about a picture of Jesus that miraculously survived a church fire. I thought Drudge only did politics. I don’t need miracle oriented, RCC pandering fake news. What I need is grace.

  15. Jason, I am very pleased to hear that.

  16. It looks like my friend and I are back on the same page. Your prayers worked. Thank God.

  17. Jason, I agree with you that a clear Gospel presentation is essential.

  18. I suppose a leprosy victim has no chance, either.

    When I talked to my friend, he was unclear. He said that works are necessary “in salvation”, with stress on the preposition. It seemed that he was trying in his own way to say that we should do good works, but he was not able to achieve clarity. I told him that his friends would be confused and not blessed. He had told me he avoids church like the plague. I told him that his friends will inevitably interpret his words through the LS grid, and their confused minds will process the same message they heard in the pastoral swampland. The conversation trailed off here.

    An evangelist wins on the clear gospel. It has been my recent experience. But most preachers prefer mush. Sometimes a bad lawyer is clearer than a good pastor. It is a sad day when it happens. Galatians 3:1 beats LS any time. Who has bewitched them? As usual, it is the puppets in the pulpit. The jungle is full of them.

  19. Jason, sorry about your friend, I can certainly relate. One woman did the same. We even talked, she agreed repentance did not mean turning from sin. But on another post on her wall she contradicted what she previously said. Some just will agree with what people say to shut them up and/or they are like those who ‘sneak in’ (Gal 2:4-5). What is a ‘genuine turn from sin’ anyways?

    As for the one that said artificial hair could make someone miss heaven? How ludicrous… I suppose a cancer patient doesn’t have a chance in this person’s world.

    Praise the Lord that we know these things, these judgments, are rules and regulations of men and not what we must do to be saved 🙂

  20. Chas, you are right, the protestants are moving closer and closer to Roman Catholicism. A police show my husband had on, had a policeman appealing to a criminal that maybe God was giving him one last chance to repent. I had to kind of smh, knowing at that moment, this is not a colloquialism in the world today, yet, because of street preachers and signs, the world understands the world to mean ‘turn from sin’. And we know until we die we have a chance to repent. But I found it interesting a Roman Catholic on T.V. was using the word and Hollywood was o.k. with it.

  21. Jason, it is terribly sad when someone with whom we have shared the gospel and who appears to understand and believe it then undermines the gospel with LS teaching.

    I have prayed for your friend.

  22. When friends let you down.

    I had shared the gospel with a friend. My sharing included Shea, Bowen, Holly, and this site. He agreed and gave me likes. He said I was a blessing to others. He even said I was a preacher. I politely disagreed.

    And he posts this on his wall:

    “You claim to be born again????
    how many needy people have you helped?
    If none then you are a liar go back to the cross?”

    I replied: “I have shared the gospel and blessed you. Then I read this? I am disappointed. Helping the needy and a genuine turn from sin are works”, and gave the sad face.

    Another post of his defined repentance as a “genuine turn from sin”.

    Another from awhile back said that makeup and artificial hairs could cause you to “miss heaven”.

    I am saddened to hear about things like artificial hairs and the bleaching of the skin, but to throw LS into the mess is the worst insult ever. Repenting of real and imagined sin continues to cause corruption to the truth all around the world, which a Trump in every country cannot fix.

  23. Jason, mormonism is false doctrine that incorporates works for eternal life, among other errors. That was a very interesting quote you provided from the commenter, who left out the word “believe.” That’s a very significant omission.

  24. I saw this on the comment section of the song “We All Bleed the Same” (healing America version) by Alex Boyé:

    “We all bleed the same and sin the same so we all. Need repentance”

    The comment was ok until the last word. It is so LS. All who read it interpret it through a LS grid because it is so pervasive.

    Another commenter replied:

    “Finally someone who said the Truth! Thank you for speaking it. Yes God loved us so much that He sent his only Son that we might not perish but have an everlasting life. Amen”

    She missed the contradiction and misquoted John 3:16. Worst of all, she left out “believe”.

    I replied to the first commenter:

    “Wrong. We need grace alone. Lordship is more hate”

    I have experienced it.

    The artist is a Mormon by affiliation and immigrated into Utah. That is unfortunate. Mormonism is more LS.

  25. Jason, it is pathetic. People virtue signal on any number of dimensions.

  26. A certain video features some sort of minister questioning a caller because she voted for a certain candidate six years ago. That candidate supported abortion. The host told the caller that (1) she is not a Christian, and (2) he brought up race (theirs) and said that most of “them” hate God. The caller stated clearly that she does not support abortion. The gospel was never discussed.

    The fruit inspection is pathetic.

  27. Chas, it can be very draining to try to reason with religious people about the truth of the gospel and the sufficiency of Christ.

    All we can do is show them the truth from scripture. I have prayed for your recovery from surgery.

  28. It’s evident that so-called “protestant evangelicalism” is sounding more and more like Roman Catholicism in these end times.

    I know I’ve brought up RCC-ism a couple of times in this thread already, but the subject has weighed heavily on me over the last few months. I got a fresh look at the RCC side a few weeks ago as I was drawn into a lengthy exchange with a die-hard Catholic about RCC “authority” and a few of their other dubious claims. I attempted to steer the discussion to a biblically-oriented direction after quoting from the Council of Trent where the RCC dis-fellowships anyone who believes the true gospel of salvation by faith alone, apart from works. (The Council didn’t call what they were condemning “the true gospel” of course, but that is in essence what they referred to as a ground for anathematizing anyone who believes it.) My point in the discussion was that centuries ago the RCC officially separated themselves from the only gospel that saves, thereby pitting themselves against the Truth. Therefore their “gospel” of faith-plus-works is false by their own unwitting admission. That point was missed entirely by the Catholic responding to me. He insisted that the anathema decree “only applies to Catholics” (LOL!), and therefore doesn’t constitute a claim by RCC-sm to be “the only true church”. Vatican II came up, with the person quoting various high-sounding statements from that document in which the RCC tries to sound like it has abandoned any claim to be “the TRUE church” while at the same time using more subtle wording to restate that very claim in effect. Naturally, Matthew 16:18 came up, where any appeal to Scripture and Greek grammar was met with “That’s just your interpretation.” I’m afraid I didn’t do as well as I might have, especially since–in the diversion about RCC decrees and claims–I neglected to call his bluff about Romans 3., which he insisted is only about Paul telling the Roman church they didn’t need to keep the Jewish “ceremonial” law. (Yeah! I know!) I pointed out how he seemed to have Romans confused with Galatians, but he just doubled-down on his nonsense with “that’s just your interpretation” whenever Scripture contradicted his interpretation (which was a lot). There was the usual array of straw men arguments from his side. There were insinuations that I think I’m infallible, “have a lot of nerve”, was being “sanctimonious to the end”, etc. There was a lot of that, which I pretty much ignored in an effort to keep to the biblical points I was trying to make. It was the typical treatment of a believer by a legalist, iow, nothing unusual. But for some reason the whole thing left me very drained, more than it usually does when I’m coming off one of these RCC “encounters”. (Swidt?) I wasn’t at my best (as if my “best” was good enough, which it isn’t). What with the run-up to the shoulder surgery I underwent a couple weeks ago, and with the consequent “medications” involved I still haven’t recovered entirely from that discussion. My consolation is to pray for that individual (and those who “liked” his posts) whenever the exchange comes to mind. (Am I venting again? I guess so, this is the only place I feel comfortable “baring my soul” etc. etc.)

    Anyway, all that to say; the legalistic unbelief at the heart of LS, held by the RCC and so many other “Christian” systems of thought (we used to call them “denominations”) is rearing its ugly head with greater and greater clarity and unity between RCC-ism and the supposedly non-RCC camp. The false End Times Church is coalescing right before our eyes. It can’t be very long now.

    “Even so, come, Lord Jesus.”

  29. John WI, it does sound like Paul Washer to me also. Sadly, a lot of them parrot each other and so they begin to sing the same old song.

  30. Jason, that is very encouraging.

  31. Last Sunday, I made an interesting friend on Facebook. He was from a foreign country. He agreed with my misgivings about a certain false prophet. At some point, I brought up Expreacherman. I said that I rarely witnessed as much consistency with John 3:16 as I have seen here. He gave me a big thumbs up.

    It encourages me when I see grace resonating around the world.

  32. It sounds just like something Paul Washer would spew out.

  33. Pointless, hopeless and false.

    They are like dogs chasing their tails until they’re exhausted and then get up and try harder the next time. And teaching all their blind followers to do the same. It’s really very sad.

    This guy is a Pastor of yet again another ‘Grace’ IFB church. (That’s why he mentioned those other IFB churches that get it wrong according to him).

    He also claims to have gone to Florida Bible, have no idea if it’s true, but if so, obviously he was resistant to the truth.

  34. Hobbs, yes, it is pointless.

    The false gospels are often focused on a person’s motive for believing, which is not biblical.

    In this case, the false gospel is circular – believe in Jesus to change your life. If your life doesn’t change, you didn’t “sincerely believe.” So, if one wants to maintain the ruse, he has to engage in all sorts of religiousity.

  35. And so they neatly rule out any possiblity of anyone having any assurance.

    All a bit pointless really isn’t it?

    The institutional church steps in and says ‘follow our rules, we’ll save you’.

    Yeah, just the cults.

  36. Holly, this person is basically redefining faith as a desire to be freed from the practice of sin.

    The problem with this as the means of receiving eternal life is that it is based on man doing something to commend himself to God. In other words, it is dependent on someone who lacks eternal life deciding that he can make himself acceptable to God by desiring to give up his sins. If the desire to give up one’s sins is required to receive eternal life, than that is merely the desire to offer God filthy rags in exchange for eternal life. That would reduce eternal life to a trade, rather than it being a gift.

    The sole basis for assurance under this false gospel would be constant soul searching to make sure one was sincere when he decided that he wanted to stop sinning. This puts it all back on the subjectivity of a person’s feelings versus the objectivity of believing the gospel.

  37. I know the preference here is for shorter posts. But this is what I got in my email today from one wanting my thoughts on this false statement. Maybe could have taken a little more time, but I answered right then.

    MORE FALSE ‘GOSPEL’S’ ACCORDING TO THE INTERENET

    The preaching of * #REPENTANCE * is the historical position of the church. The denial of repentance and changing it into a new doctrine is the trend of the current church and is rampant among IFB churches. We claim to stand on the old truths, but I defy any IFB preacher to point out a gospel preacher of old who preached these things:
    1. You don’t need to turn from sin.
    2. Repentance is just a change of mind about how to go to heaven.
    3. If you confuse salvation and service people will think they must serve God.
    4. Salvation is all about going to heaven, serving God comes later.
    5. Preaching that men must turn from sin is a lie of the devil.
    6. The gospel of John doesn’t use the word #Repent so repentance is not to be preached to the lost.
    7. We teach “faith alone” because preaching repentance as turning from sin is adding to the gospel.
    The truth is that not only is repentance from sin the only gospel ever preached, but we can say these things about it:
    1. You must turn or burn.
    2. Repentance is a change of mind and heart about your sin, and the authority of Christ. You cannot just recognize you are a sinner, you must come to Jesus to be freed from the slavery of sin.
    3. People who know themselves to be sinners by the light of the Holy Spirit come to Jesus for a new life of service. They DO NOT serve to be saved, but they do not come to continue in sin either.
    4. Salvation is about you and God being reconciled after being His enemy. Therefore, it is the desire to serve Him now by His power AND the desire to go to heaven, having been delivered from sin’s power and penalty.
    5. Preaching that men must turn from sin is the only message of the Bible. They need NOT clean their life up to come to God. They must come to Jesus for healing from a rebellious heart, whereby He gives them a new heart and writes His laws upon it.
    6. The gospel of John is written to prove the deity of Christ. If you do not submit to the deity and Lordship of Jesus, you DO NOT BELIEVE He is God in your heart, only in your head, just like the devils of James chapter 2. To believe He is truly God is to submit your life to Him. Nothing could be more clear than that you live by the authority of your chosen God. Either you live after the devil, or Jesus. You cannot serve two masters. So if John proves Jesus is the true God, you must submit or die.
    7. A faith in Jesus that does not include a hearty repentance from sin does not originate from the Holy Spirit, but from the flesh which will do anything to stay in power. It will even profess Jesus and go soul winning, so long as it does not have to die. This is the place where real salvation meets the real needs of men. They need Jesus to rule them and empower them. Therefore, true salvation delivers men from the power of self, and places Jesus on the throne in the heart where He belongs. Nothing short of this answers the need of the human condition. Men need saving from themselves and their rebellious hearts. Hell is only the just consequence of that wickedness. Therefore, God’s object is not to get you out of hell and into heaven, but to get the devil out and Himself in, so the image of Jesus can be seen in men.

    My response:

    Here is my answer, but if this were on my wall I’d delete it after I answered.

    1. Believers should turn from sin. I defy that person to show where the apostles preached a turn from sin gospel (read all the Acts account, they usually use one, but the point is forgiveness of sins).

    2. Repentance is a change of mind about something. The philosophers at Mar’s Hill (Acts 17) ‘ought not think’ that God was made by man of gold, silver, stone. The Jewish Rulers needed not THINK that because they were children of Abraham, they were in. It’s a change of mind of what you previously thought was true, TO a belief of the truth.

    3. If you confuse salvation and service – people will think they must WORK for salvation and hence have not been saved. Eph 2:8-9, Rom 4:2-5; 11:6; Gal 2:16

    4. Salvation is all about being saved from the wages of sin (eternal death). The free gift is eternal life. Becoming a disciple is a process and happens as we continue in His Word (John 8:31-32),

    5. Obviously a strawman argument, we teach that turning from sin is a work. A good work, a righteous thing for believers to do. If we add turning from our evil deeds as a necessity to be saved, we’ve added a work (Titus 3:4-7 – NOT by works of righteousness).

    6. This person obviously has no clue about the whole counsel of God. Turning from sin is part and parcel of the whole law. Certain laws are absolutely about turning from sin, Numbers 5:6-7 is just one example of turning from sin in the law although really most of them are.

    Conclusion: Adding a work of the law to the gospel is an accursed gospel since no one has ever been justified by the law. (Gal 2:16; 1:6-9)

    Followup numbers.

    1. He’s quoting Charles Spurgeon not the Bible

    2. Chapter and verse?

    3. We don’t receive the Spirit until after we believe (Eph 1:13).

    4. If it were automatic, the epistles wouldn’t have been very necessary as most are about teaching believers how to do that.

    5. While we were YET sinners Christ died for us (Rom 5:6-8) and we know that He quickened us (made us alive) while we were still dead in our sins (Eph 2:1)

    6. I taught through John and Jn 20:30-31 tells us the purpose of John. Part of believing the gospel is believing WHO Jesus is, but we believe that He is God. They go further and bring up James 2 and the demons who were never offered salvation (obviously insinuating works for salvation).

    7. A ‘hearty repentance from sin’? By their humble opinion? If it were in our ability it would have to be perfect. ‘Jesus on the throne of the heart’ (again, chapter and verse?) I agree we need to submit to God, resist the enemy. Humble ourselves under His mighty hand. We, meaning believers (1 Pet 5).

    Anyways, lots of men’s words and opinions with no sound exegesis of Scripture.

  38. Edit:

    [Various punches and insults]
    My comment: LS is very oppressive. Sad.

  39. The story of Jimmy Taylor, the missionary who was arrested in Uganda, has gone viral. Since he is a missionary, he has a gospel to sell, and I thought it was worth commenting on. When an independent journalist shared this, I was shocked. I am so used to fake news. I can’t help myself.

    Some of his comments

    “Look at me. Look at Christ who died for you”
    My comment: Jimmy Taylor is not Jesus. Jimmy did not die for the sins of Ugandans or anyone else. Jesus warned us to flee these false christs. This is the evil fruit of theosis. Unfortunately, Francis was in no position to take flight, much less to fight back.

    “No, you calm up”.
    My comment: I don’t know what he means by that. He is drunk. He was rightly told to calm down.

    “Repent”
    My comment: the tone implies repenting of sins. It is not a condition for eternal life.

    “You obey me”
    My comment: obedience is not a condition for eternal life, and Jimmy is not Lord.

    “I have come to help Uganda”
    My comment: no country needs a false gospel or a false christ.

    “You disgrace Jesus”
    My comment: Jimmy disgraced Jesus with blasphemy, a false gospel, insults, and violent behavior. He showed no grace. Identity politics exists, and so does the real thing.

    “You hate yourself. You hate Uganda. You hate Jesus”
    My comment: this is pure fruit inspection. No attempt was made to gather facts before hurling accusations. Jimmy did not ask Francis what he believed. This is typical of accusers of the brethren.

    “In three days, three quarters of you will die”
    My comment: so he thinks he is a prophet. His doctrine already proves him false.

    [Various punches and insults]
    My comment: the “missionary position” is LS, and it is alive and well. Sad.

    Jimmy’s arrest is also circulating. He tried to disarm cops, in reverse Michael Brown style. He should have been shot. Despising government is a characteristic of false prophets (2 Peter 2:10).

    The gospel is the good news that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and that eternal life is freely offered, without respect of persons, to anyone who believes. It is none of the above madness. Stories like this confuse people about the character and work of Jesus, and make me sad.

  40. “His mercy speaks only when we are still alive”

    That is a clear denial of eternal life. I gave it a sad face.

  41. Phil, I think there’s a lot of that going on.

  42. Unfortunately, I think people are lead to say the magic words like…. confess with your mouth…..call on the name of the Lord….and you wonder if they really know and believe what Christ’s death and resurrection means for them personally.

  43. Where is the gospel believed? One reason I go places on the internet is to find out. I can’t resist. I also like road trips. I was in DC last Saturday.

  44. Phil, good point. People need to hear the gospel message and the only response needed is belief.

  45. I recently saw a film where there was a scene where a woman came forward in this church and wanted to be saved. She was told to confess her sins to God, believe Jesus is the Son of God, and confess him as Lord, and she would be saved. She was not given the gospel message.
    I think people are sometimes told what their response should be instead the facts and reasons behind why they can be saved and to believe Christ died for their sins and rose to save them. Instead they focus on Romans 10:9-10 as the go-to, two step salvation passage instead of the rest of what Romans and other Bible passages say about salvation.

  46. Kate, we are glad that you are here, and that you find the site to be a blessing.

    The various groups within “churchianity” can usually identify what makes them each unique. What they can’t identify is what makes them all the same.

  47. Katmazdobelieve

    Hobbs,
    Yes and Amen!!!

    Johninnc,
    I would always ask church elders, as well as peers, what exactly made Christianity different from all other religions, including RCC. The answers were always in the vein of “They worship false gods; They worship themselves”. Even in my fog while laboring under the delusion of the false gospel I could see that something was wrong in Churchanity.

    I am beyond grateful that I landed here. Since coming here and understanding the real Saving gospel the intrusive thoughts that fed my religious OCD (also called scrupulosity) have decreased to almost none. All the anxiety and depression which caused so much ” fear of the unknown”, to quote Hobbs, is no longer running my life. And when I do have moments of weakness and uncertainty, moments of doubt, then I rest in the assurance of eternal life given freely by my Maker because of Grace alone by Faith alone through Christ alone.
    The meaning of freedom in Christ always seemed to be obscured in my mind. That is no longer an issue. His yoke is light.
    Anyway. Thanks for reading my ramble. I know I don’t comment often, many times I want too but my biblical understanding is not near on level with the regular commenters here.
    Thanks again.
    This site and all of regulars were a God send.
    Kate.

  48. kate, I agree with you. The man-made religions are all the same at the core.

    And, many of the same people who won’t even tell you the correct way to have eternal life hold themselves out as “life coaches” through their books and articles.

  49. Jason, she may not be in that book, but she is well-documented as a false teacher.

  50. Hobbs, yes, what a relief!

  51. The fear of the unknown. Will I have a nasty surprise when I die? Have I done enough good in my life to ‘appease the gods’.
    How could anyone ever know on that basis?
    Faith is the only connection we have with the next realm.
    ‘For by grace are ye saved through faith…’
    Phew, what a relief.

  52. Katmazdobelieve

    Jason65,
    I think they are all the same. They can package the product differently but it all boils down to works for or evidence of salvation.
    It is grace plus works no matter how you slice it. And by reading casually on other religions it is still the same message of “Save Yourself by Your Own Good Deeds”.
    The religions of man are always self-centered.
    Kate.

  53. Oops, Bowen does not mention Meyer. There is nothing like a good old Mandela effect to throw me for a loop, lol. All these false teachers seem the same.

  54. Holly, yes, it is a ludicrous statement, and it would be considered comedy if it was said by someone that was mocking the church. But unfortunately, they are serious.

    Johninnc, yes, Billy Graham certainly was a false teacher, and his son, Franklin, is just as bad.

  55. Shane, I’m sure your laughter was like mine. Yes contradiction for sure. When it said ‘interior contradiction’ I thought of inward wolves. They just won’t believe the Word of God and corrupt minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    Still shaking my head at how ludicrous that statement below is….
    “Salvation includes being accepted just as you are, when you turn from your sin”.

  56. Shane, you are giving your friend sound advice.

    It reminds me of the Billy Graham events using “Just As I Am” as their signature song.

  57. Johninnc, I’m tired of the chew the meat, spit out the bones (or don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater). They are advocating that you literally take doctrinal teaching from one in error contrary to what the Scripture says.

  58. I looked up the doctrine of a church for a friend in a city where I used to pastor. When reading it, I just had to share with you all here, one of the most funny statements on salvation I’ve ever seen. It includes an interior contradiction. What is an interior contradiction? It is a statement that contradicts itself, like this one: “Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is never alone”.

    So here’s the one they put in their statement of faith: “Salvation includes being accepted just as you are, when you turn from your sin”.

    That’s a new one for me. I can be accepted by Jesus just as I am, so long as I sufficiently clean up first. Too funny!

    Needless to say, I will be telling her to avoid that place.

  59. Jason, I’m not a big fan of “chew the meat, spit out the bones.” The Bible says “mark and avoid.”

  60. I saw someone share a video of Joyce Meyer that she thought was uplifting. When people post these things, I do not know if they are spitting out the bones or swallowing whole or are ignorant of the full range of their teachings. I would rather put warning labels, or better yet, not share at all. In response, I shared the Bowen book, referenced the section on Meyer, and expressed my concerns. Most seriously, Meyer is LS.

  61. Jason I am sorry you lost your friend. I’m not sure he was clear from the beginning, but if so, I pray he comes out of bondage.

  62. Holly, I took a look at some of those comments and responses today. That poor guy is really carrying a heavy burden.

  63. John, I have a commenter over on my article on Paul Washer who doesn’t undertstand the same (eternal life is just that).

    I’m not going to entertain more of his comments (I re-read your guest guidelines – good rules which I will use as my own guideline at my site). But I did enjoy answering some of the typical junk they use to try to prove you can lose everlasting life.

    How sad of an existence that is. And how awful of an eternity if they do not come to a knowledge of the saving truth.

  64. A couple of comments today from an article on a pastor who committed suicide:

    He’s not with Jesus though, suicide is a sin so he’s with Satan.

    My comment: This commenter does not appear to understand the gospel. A believer in Christ has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited. If the pastor ever believed in Jesus as Savior, he is with Him now. If Christ died for our sins, that includes suicide. If a person believes that he will end up in hell if he commits suicide, then he doesn’t believe that he has eternal life.
    Instead, he believes that he has contingent eternal life, conditioned on his work of not committing suicide.

    Depends. For example, a soldier in battle jumps on a live grenade thrown by the enemy is a hero going to heaven for sure…even if he saved no one and wanted to die.

    My comment: This commenter also seems to believe that eternal life is conditioned on works. If the soldier in that example had ever believed in Jesus as his Savior he would be going to heaven for sure. If not, even if he saved an entire division by his heroic act, he would not be going to heaven.

  65. I am sorry. I couldn’t help myself. Losing a friend that I grew close to over six months was painful. I don’t intend to start a discussion. I respect your decision.

  66. Jason, as you know, we do not teach the spiritual death of Christ at ExPreacherman.

    However, comments on this issue were officially closed by the late Jack Weaver, and by Bruce and Jack collectively (please see links below if you are interested in those previous discussions).

    I would ask that we not rehash this topic again.

    https://expreacherman.com/2012/06/08/guilt-free-christianity/#comment-19764

    https://expreacherman.com/2012/12/18/dave-hunts-berean-call-promoting-not-only-calvinism-but-now-the-terrible-lordship-salvation-of-ray-comfort/#comment-18129

  67. I just lost my friend to that teaching. Sad.

  68. Jesus Died Spiritually heresy has missionaries. Burnt offering teaching is popping up in divers places. Sad.

  69. Jason65, in love and no condescension, just concern, don’t spend very much time on the counterfeit. Not enough time in the day to learn all the wisdom found in His Word.

  70. That’s true, because every ideology out there has its pet sins, and their base is like, repent of them or burn in hell. Sad. LS goes against the feel-good therapy of many of these groups, but they dish it anyway.

    I think I got Tucker and Jeffress confused, lol.

  71. Jason, the news sources and political channels promote LS, because it is so popular with their bases.

  72. Following news and political channels can get you mixed up with false gospels. Tucker Carlson teaches LS.

    I have listened to number of African sources, out of curiosity, and I had the misfortune of stumbling upon Dr Mumbi. Her news is interesting to me, but she promoted a prophecy of Myles Monroe, who I know raises many red flags. She is not clear on the gospel herself, since she always teaches discipleship and never salvation. I have yet to stumble upon her gospel. When explaining the meaning of Christmas, she mentioned the sacrifice of Christ but did not say what it means. She omitted to mention that it gives eternal life to the believer. She is not explicitly LS, but the problems with what is left unsaid are huge. Even if the Monroe prophecy of Africa’s rise comes to pass, God did not send it.

  73. It is ironic, but just the cares of this world. One need only to watch any television show, news channel, series, etc., and you would generally easily find one of a few things:

    1. Propaganda of some kind
    2. An Agenda against believers
    3. A worldly foretelling of future end times events
    4. Common ground with loadshippers in that man is somehow the savior in the story.

  74. Jason, very ironic.

  75. That same commenter who was justifying Trump on the basis of a false gospel now brings up the Rich Young Ruler.

    He said: “show me your fairh without works, and ill show you the President’s Faith by his works. What did Jesus tell the Rich Younger ruler to do? Nothing? Or did He tell him what to do to get to Heaven?”

    I am like, Trump did not sell all his possesseions. If he really believes that, he should espouse liberation theology. It follows. Nothing is sillier than right wingers with leftist false gospels.

  76. As if flat earth madness weren’t enough, Q gets thrown into the mix. The #walkaway movement is enticed into the trap. The latest prophecy is the arrest of Hillary. The obsession with codes is indistinguishable from astrology. Are they reading too much Snicket? The video, QAnon Is Dead, puts the jig up. Distraction is part of divide and conquer. Back to the gospel. Jesus died for all my sins so that I may live. If I know nothing else, even so, it is well.

  77. Johninnc – I can relate to the ‘too easy’ or ‘too hard’ but their ‘too easy’ is to just be a disciple, do all the things he commanded. (One told me all the acts and works of disciples was the ‘gospel 101’). He did make it easy, but they corrupt minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.

  78. Holly, these videos are not about the gospel but about politics. I do not expect the gospel to be mentioned. But in the comments, these false gospels rear their ugly head.

  79. Holly, I know. I’ve been told that I make it too easy and that I make it too hard. I didn’t make it anything. It’s the gospel of Jesus Christ.

  80. Johninnc, that last comment you posted, that I missed, it is just heartbreaking at times to see people get the gospel wrong, over and over, and think they can ‘achieve salvation’ and if you dare point out that isn’t what the Word teaches, it is you who are being ‘nitpicky’.

  81. Jason, what I always find very telling on those videos is they don’t mention the gospel at all.

    And the conditions they are mentioning about righting a wrong can be seen in multiple aspects of the law. And we know the law never made anyone righteous. They are so ME-centric, it doesn’t dawn on them the obvious. They are talking about what they must do to be saved, as as you noted, they rarely mention the only condition and if they do, we know they always add works to it.

  82. Jason, you are correct that neither asking for forgiveness, nor correcting wrongs are conditions for receiving eternal life.

  83. This comment was on the youtube channel Kevin’s Corner: “Kevin, Make a video about the President’s salvation. President Trump said that he did not believe that he needed to ask for God’s forgiveness, and the evangelical community went nuts, but he said that he needed to make right the things he has done wrong. THIS IS REAL SALVATION! I know a lot of people that have asked for forgiveness, but they refuse to make right those things they have done wrong. Just a thought Brother. God Bless Brother Kevin”

    And no one mentioned faith. Neither asking forgiveness nor correcting wrongs is a condition for receiving eternal life. The gospel dies the death of a thousand distractions.

  84. Jason, in many cases when the LS crowd talks about celebrities (as well as anyone else)they make sweeping conclusions about whether that person has eternal life.

    Like you said, we can’t know, and neither can they.

  85. From a youtube video on Kanye West’s rant: “please pray for this man. Pray for him, that he would have a revelation of who Jesus is. Pray that he would repent and turn from his sin”.

    My comment: Kanye was used by the left and is now being used by the changed lives crowd. They do not think he is saved. They think that repenting of sin is a condition for receiving eternal life. That is so wrong. He might be saved. He once confessed in one of his songs: “my momma used to say only Jesus can save us”. The appropriate prayer is: if he is not saved, that he would believe in Jesus for eternal life, and, if he is saved, that he would have peace and boldness to speak the truth. Now they inspect his fruit and say that he is still lost. The lordship plantation is a dangerous state of mind.

  86. Brother James Key. Breaking: Q identified, QAnon exposed.

    In this video, James Key is full of intimations of salvation by works. He is constantly boasting about what great love he has for the Lord, and saying that we must stay on the narrow way. He is creepy.

  87. Following is a comment I gleaned from the internet today:

    However, our God is a merciful one. Should they decide to repent, follow in the footsteps of the LIGHT OF THE WORLD, they can achieve salvation. Jesus refuses to give up. We have but only open the door to our hearts and let Him in and take control.

    My comment: Our God is merciful. He provided completely for our salvation by sending Jesus to be our Savior. On needs only believe in Jesus as his Savior to receive eternal life. We do not “achieve” eternal life. We receive it by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. One does not have to “let Him take control” to receive the free gift of eternal life.

  88. Jason, that is a very apt depiction.

  89. I seems that faith, in Catholicism, is a gift received through sacraments. Sad.

  90. Chas – it’s true, they don’t consider the ‘how much’ or ‘how long’ or ‘how sincere’ that can go on for that lifetime of perseverance. But similarly to the Catholics, they can’t really say they’re ‘saved’ yet. For them it’s presumptuous to do so.

    I ran across a Roman Catholic article recently and surprised to see it’s identical nature to the doctrine the Calvinists teach of the gift of faith and the gift of repentance. There was nothing on the article that a hard core Calvinist couldn’t have written, yet just like the Calvinists, no good Biblical proof, just proof texting (as in repentance given to the Gentiles or repentance and forgiveness given to Israel) as their proof.

  91. #3, the “confessed Jesus before men” requirement always made me wonder, “How many times? Just once? Once a day, a week, a month…? How many people a day do I hafta witness to for me to be really saved, HUH?

    At least the RCC has demands that are specific: Confess sins to a priest and receive the Eucharist once a year, minimum, attend Mass every Sunday (and “holy day of obligation”). Of course, the “good deeds” part is kinda open-ended…

  92. Hobbs – you asked, why not just rest in the knowledge that God is faithful to save us?

    I’ve asked that many times over the year, or why they preach Calvinism vs. Christ and Him crucified, and I’m afraid they haven’t come to that knowledge (that it’s God who is faithful) because they just don’t believe it. Or have become bewitched, either way we know they espouse a false and powerless gospel.

  93. Johninnc, I still marvel that people want to make a doctrine over a couple unclear verses used without context and witness from the rest of His Word. Whether it be repentance and faith being a gift bestowed upon a few, or confessing publicly in order to be given the free gift, or turning from sin, or becoming baptized, etc. They are unwilling to consider the other passages and I can’t figure that out. Afraid? Proud? Steeped in religious tradition? Or is it just the religious/carnal feeling of belonging to a certain sect?

    I find it sad for them, but I continue (as you do) to speak the Word in the hope and prayers that they might somehow take heed.

  94. Holly, I had told my wife earlier today that this sounded like Church Of Christ.

  95. Johninnc

    The person/group that explained how to become saved and stay saved sounds like Church of Christ or the like. They cannot ‘know’ as they suggest, there is no way they can know by their carnal standards.

  96. Following is a false gospel message that I found today in an internet comment.:

    The gospel invitation:

    1. Heard the word
    2. Believed the word Romans 10:17
    3. Confessed Jesus before men Matthew 10:32
    4. Been baptized for the remission of sins Acts 2:38

    and if so

    5. Are remaining faithful James 1:12-22

    The events in this word will continue until that final day, the question is, are you prepared? When you pass on, are you ready? You can be!

    My comment: Neither confessing Christ before men, nor water baptism, are required to receive the free gift of eternal life. And, it is God’s will that Christians be faithful. However, it is not an automatic consequence of believing.

    This internet commenter is trying to evangelize, but sounds like he needs to have the gospel explained to him by someone who clearly understands it. If this commenter has never believed in Christ alone, apart from works, he is not prepared.

  97. Yes it seems so convoluted to go into all the ‘God gives me the determination to stay faithful’. Why not just rest in the knowledge that God is faithful to save us. Again, the simplicty that is in Christ. It’s like a fear of simplicity, e.g. ‘you can’t say you just have to believe and you’re saved’. Actually the guy did start to say that elsewhere…. but, but… then he went and added ‘and confess with your mouth’, which he describes as God always requiring an ‘accompanying action’. Yes, we get it, add some work and a whole host of other requirements until our assurance is in shreds….

  98. Hobbs, Romans 7 describes our fate in the flesh well and so by God’s standards, we fail.

  99. Hobbs, that is a very good example of the confusion out there. Essentially, this person is saying that God has empowered him to keep himself saved (that is, work his way to heaven) by his determination to stay faithful, which is appropriated by faith. Very mixed up.

  100. Actually, no, on second thoughts…. I’ve never believed I was saved on the basis that I have ‘determined that I am going to remain faithful’. A silly attempt at humility on my part.

  101. This is from someone’s facebook video, a guy who’s actually been a Pastor much of his life:

    “If you want to know the truth about what I believe about eternal security, I am eternally secure. There is no way that I can lose my salvation. Why? Because I have determined that I am going to remain faithful. Now, it doesn’t depend on me, it’s the grace of God that brings salvation to me, and it’s by faith I appropriate His provision so that I am a born again son of the Living God and I am on my way to heaven. And there’s no way that I am going to throw this thing away. Halleluijah! So when He convicts me of sin, I quit sinning, when I do something that’s not pleasing to Him, I stop. If I do commit a sin, if I do something that I know I shouldn’t have done, I immediately confess that, and put it right.”

    My comment: I feel this epitomises what ExP is trying to correct; confused people thinking they can help save themselves. (Not that I wouldn’t have been just as muddled a couple of years back!)

  102. I agree about both comments. There seems to be no end to the subtleties of error.

  103. Following is an excerpt from a comment I read today, along with one of the responses to it. My comments, to both the original comment and the response, are in bold parentheses.

    Excerpt from original comment: Habitual sin, however, is you choosing to be separated from him for eternity.

    (My comment: habitual sin is not choosing to be separated from Christ for eternity. People who believe in Jesus as Savior have eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited, whether or not they sin habitually.)

    Response to original comment: You are wrong about habitual sin. All sin can be habitual. What God requires of believers is to be at war with their sins, which is a wholly different attitude than accepting sinful behavior as one’s chosen lifestyle.

    (My comment: Being at war with one’s sins is not a requirement for receiving, keeping, or proving that one has received eternal life. It is God’s will that believers not let sin reign in their lives, but it is not required for eternal life.)

  104. Jason, martyrdom, like any other work, won’t get anyone into heaven.

  105. I didn’t wish to revisit this topic again, but that heretical article proves that this false gospel is being used by the perveyors of LS generally and not just a few fringe groups. It is used at random. They usually assure you that if you aren’t practicing sin, you are ok. But sometimes they turn up the heat just to scare you, and they stay out of the kitchen themselves. The article was called, “I Hope My Son’s Life is in Danger”. What a murderous thought!

  106. Jason, agree. Being martyred has nothing to do with receiving, keeping, or proving that one has eternal life.

    In fact, believing that one must agree to martyrdom to receive, keep, or prove that one has eternal life is not consistent with believing in Christ alone for eternal life.

    It is a sad possibility that someone who has never believed in Jesus as Savior could become a martyr for a false gospel.

    The “Gospel Coalition,” is a Calvinist/Lordship “salvation”/ecumenical monstrosity that is actually aligned against the gospel.

  107. From the Gospel Coalition:

    “When my son posed his question before dinner, I was tempted for a moment to comfort him by saying that he may not actually die for his faith. But that’s not what the children who saw Christ die on the cross would have understood. And that’s not how Jesus talked when he said things like, “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you [on my account]” (Matthew 5:11). There is nothing more eternally healthy for the imagination of a young boy than to hear these words and place himself in the drama of Scripture. The same young imagination that may at first fear death, when captivated by Christ will remember these words and the breath of Jesus that lays low his enemies. In fact, we will know our children believe Jesus’ promises about heaven when they believe Jesus’ promises about now”

    My thoughts: that contradicts the testimony many funerals. Some die for him, some don’t. Nothing is more healthy than simply knowing the gospel and believing in it. The false gospel of dying for Jesus is not what the thief on the cross understood when he saw Jesus die a few hours before him, as I would suppose under the condtions. The thief died for his crime, but Jesus died for the thief. This is not what Nicodemus understood either. He avoided persecution but understood that he was promised eternal life. And no one practices the martyrdom gospel. They use it to give us false guilt. That is what I experienced with Wurmbrand. He himself ceased to practice this when he came to America and founded VOM. This article intimates that salvation is a trade. Withstanding persecution earns a reward, but the martyrdom gospel is just simply LS with the most stringent standard imaginable.

  108. Just wow. Now I am utterly convinced that Calvinism is new age.

  109. Jason, that is interesting. There is a pretty good section on grace at the old Clear Gospel. Please see below:

    http://old.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=8

  110. In the comments on a Facebook group post, I saw all sorts of confusing definitions of grace. The definitions included: a principle, an influence, a thing that teaches, a voice, the Holy Spirit. The OP asked for a definition, and some of the ansers given were true statements about grace (it teaches us to deny ungodliness) but not its definition (unmerited favor). Others stated that faith is a gift.

  111. Agree. My mom is currently affiliated with Methodists, and my sister has a female pastor. It happened due to a confluence of strange circumstances. But the main cause is that our churches got confused. My reaction was to cease to assemble. Theirs was to put up with the confusion. But I have known them my whole life and I have had this conversation with them. That leaves me with a good idea of what they believe. I recently found a church that was clear enough for me, and that makes my family happy for me. My mom even tried it with me on Mother’s day.

    My comment on the Kenya site is still awaiting approval. Bummer. I was hoping to reach them.

  112. A comment from today:

    With respect to Southern Baptists: None of them are true Christians.

    My comment: The Southern Baptist convention adheres to the Baptist Faith and Message, which does not comport with the gospel. However, merely belonging to a church that is confused about the gospel, or is affiliated with a group that is confused about the gospel, does not mean that a person lacks eternal life.

    People belong to these groups for a variety of reasons, most of which are not good reasons.

  113. Hobbs – I do the same as you, I think I’m being harsh when I’m protecting the truth, and I have to keep in prayer to not let my emotions (not saying you do) guide my time spent with these types. You want them to know the truth, but many are like the Pharisees of old and have stopped up their ears, some of them murderous in so many ways.

  114. Hobbs, that person did get one thing right, even though it’s probably not what he meant. He says, “There are many people following Jesus today in an unsaved condition”, which is true and just what Mat 7:21-23 says, because they are trusting in their works and not HIS work. It is finished, AMEN!

  115. Correcting myself again! It’s not ‘harsh’, understanding that is the difference between heaven and hell.

  116. “…paid for all their bad” being just a casual expression of course. Even a person’s ‘good’ is also sin until they trust Christ, according to the Bible. Seems harsh when we think of our ‘good’ un-saved friends. But that’s the book.

  117. Yeah, I guess until they are fully convinced that Christ has paid for all their bad, they’ll keep writing articles to bash everyone else over the head with.

  118. Hobbs, they get assurance from how obedient they think they are, relative to others, or from their own life trajectories (the “I used to’s”).

    If we point out that perfection is required to get into heaven, they will say something like “I’m not perfect, but God knows I’m trying.”

    “Trying” is a work.

  119. That un-marked grave, err… website I stumbled upon was using the ESV ‘tweak’ of John 3:36 to help qualify this statement:

    “We as Christians are not exempt from judgement or from the repercussions of sin. If we are in Christ, there is no condemnation, but if we are deceived by false theology into thinking we are in Christ, while actually living in disobedience, we are in trouble. We are not in Christ and there is condemnation. No salvation. The wrath of God remains on us. False-grace doctrine is eternally deadly. There are many people following Jesus today in an unsaved condition.”

    I suppose they’re defining false-grace as licentiousness?

    Why they wanna keeping beating-up on grace, for goodness sakes. It’s the only thing that’s ever gonna save them!

  120. Chas, yes, it is amazing, like JMac’s ‘hard to believe’ book. They make it hard, they shut up the kingdom of heaven to men and I completely agree, I once wrote on that very thing (insulting the Spirit of Grace) by their works.

    I see you and I were thinking alike on the ‘obey’, good one to add and I agree, they are rejecting His Lordship, that He is Jehovah, the Savior or Jehovah who saves. They are counting on themselves to add to or finish His work.

    Virtual venting also 🙂

  121. Hobbs, I tried to take all the loadshippers perversions of Scriptures (and no I’m not speaking of a particular translation) but of their ability to cherry pick Scripture and make the word obey as in salvation mean particularly obedience. And so I went looking for what the Word said vs. what they tried to do in twisting it (satanic) or wresting it to their destruction (those who might be carnal but can’t understand).

    Romans 10:14-17 tells us to obey unto salvation is believing His report (God’s testimony of His Son). To obey = believe His report 🙂

  122. Jason, I agree that John 11:25-26 is very clear regarding the promise of eternal life.

    I have prayed for these men as well.

  123. From KrazyInsideKenya:

    commenter2: “commenter1 what is the narrow gate. Jesus said He is the only gate. The only train you should be telling people is the Lord Jesus Christ not repentance and holiness. Jesus Christ is the only Holy and righteous and everyone who is in Him is counted holy and righteous this is the only truth of God’s word. Telling people to enter the train of repentance and holiness is misleading and not based in the true word of God”

    My observation: commenter2 gets it. Repentance (of sin) and holiness (works) are not conditions of eternal life. He correctly states that righteousness (justification) is in Christ alone. commenter1 was defending a gospel that was (counterfeit miracles aside) hardly different from MacArthur’s.

    commenter3: “i normally pity the holiness and repentance worshipers. they worship owuor more than they worship God. why do you kneel before the man? he is just another human being just like any of you. in fact you commit blasphemy by revering him that much. read the bible, understand what God needs of you and stop this nonsense of blindly worshiping owuor”

    My observation: “holiness and repentance worshipers” is an apt name for lordshippers. Churchianity is full of the reverence of men, both past and current. Commenter3 seems to get it. He went on to mention in a later comment that Jesus gave clear answers. John 11:25-26 is one of the clearest statements of the promise of eternal life.

    I hear that Kenya is full of false christs. I pray that these two commenters don’t fall for other traps. I mentioned this site and greeted them with: Mungu abariki ninyi (God bless you).

  124. Chas, good point about obeying the call to believe the gospel.

    And, no, you don’t come across as venting.

  125. Holly…
    Isn’t it amazing how LSers think that by making grace “expensive” (as opposed to “cheap” or “greasy”)– making an infinitely valuable gift of God into something “expensive” on their corrupt human scale–they have avoided insulting the Spirit of grace? I think many LSers have no sense of irony. I was surprised to find out what a heretic Dietrich Bonhoeffer was. So many “evangelicals” hold him up as such a shining example of Christian dedication.

    Regarding John 3:36, I think the main problem with LSers isn’t due to the ESV translation of John 3:36 per se, but that they don’t see that “obeying Jesus” in the context of the Gospel means obeying the call to believe the Gospel. That’s what “obedience to the faith” (Romans 1:5, KJV) is. LSers imagine that they have “obeyed the Son” in some conveniently-defined sense, “qualifying” them for salvation (and giving them a scale by which they can measure others). They don’t see that by their stubborn insistence on adding a requirement to the Gospel, they are not making Jesus their Lord, but just the opposite; they are rejecting His lordship. More in-their-face irony which they don’t get.

    John…
    Great point about “merited favor”. That’s it in a nutshell. And these same “Reformed Protestants” and “Evangelicals” will hoot and holler about the RCC’s false gospel, all the while proffering their own brand of the same thing. No wonder the Vatican is having such an easy time scooping the “lost brethren” into the RCC.

    Do I sound like I’m venting? I guess I am. Sorry.

  126. Hobbs, I try to avoid the poison as well.

    That’s a really bad translation of that verse.

  127. John, it’s probably best I just regard that stuff I read as poison and let it go. Guess it’s a lot about making a decision on where one stands and not wavering (easier said than done at times). Anyway, the guy was quoting the ESV perversion of John 3:36, where it changes ‘he that believeth not the Son shall not see life’ (from the KJV) into ‘whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life’. Says it all really.

  128. Hobbs, I don’t recall having heard that exact term. Since grace is “unmerited favor,” I suppose false grace would be “merited favor.” But the enemies of grace usually don’t have any problem with “merited favor” (salvation by works).

  129. ‘False Grace’ is one I heard the other day, guess it’s nothing new to people here? So there I go, googling ‘false grace’ like a lamb to the slaughter, knowing just what I’m in for…. and yep, sure enough, I get terrorised by all sorts of twisted ways to undermine a persons assurance. Oh well, suppose I’ll recover eventually.

  130. That’s good insight, it does seem sometimes like they think their fruit doesn’t stink 🙂 And they are positive you have none and are licentious. But I know where those accusations come from.

  131. Holly, if I hear someone call grace “greasy grace” or “cheap grace” or any of those types of terms, it makes me think they are uncomfortable with someone who is “undeserving” (relative to them) of receiving grace.

  132. The last article I wrote was yesterday about ‘greasy grace’. That term sickens me. Cheap grace originated from the ‘disciple’ Dietrich Bonhoeffer who didn’t even believe in the Deity of Christ or the literal resurrection or the virgin birth. And this is a man to quote? People are oblivious to the fact people can be disciples and not believers and believers can not be disciples. Yet the famous gotquestions site says this is not possible. It is not a ‘two-step’ process they say. If not, then salvation is a process over time, and they cannot possibly know if they have achieved it.

    In addition they define Christianity as a person who has ‘repented of their sins‘ and ‘made Jesus Lord of their life‘.

    We don’t ‘make Jesus Lord of our life’, we believe He IS Lord, who He said He is, the great I AM (God, the Messiah, the Savior). Jesus is Lord of even the demons, He is Lord of all, maybe THEY might remember that.

    I almost never hear them use the word Savior. They use Lord, they use Master, (as did Judas). But is He their Savior?

  133. Here is one from today, by someone who made multiple comments “defending Christianity”:

    You have to be born again that’s what the Lord Jesus said and that mean’s turning from your sins and turning to Jesus for salvation…All other’s is wrong and Jesus is right.

    My comment: Yes, one must be born again. But, that does not mean “turning from your sins and …”

    This commenter, like so many others, is teaching that Jesus is necessary for eternal life, but that He is not enough. One receives eternal life by Grace through faith in Christ.

    Adding the unbiblical requirement to “turn from sins” to receive the free gift of eternal life changes the gospel into a false gospel of works that cannot save anyone.

  134. Also gotcha, Holly!

  135. Chas, definitely I did not mean to imply that the man who had a false understanding of what he needed to do to be saved was ‘almost persuaded’. 🙂 Just again, wrong identification.

  136. John and Chas, my comment was mistakenly meant to address Ras, not Chas, and the Jewish man not Ironside’s comments at all. Ras, not Chas (hence my confusion) said that he had the gospel down pat (almost). Intellectually convinced of false good news he said, which is where my almost persuaded comment came from. Whether Agrippa was sarcastic or not, I was just using the terminology.

    Hope that clears up any confusion.

  137. I admit that I should not have jumped to a conclusion based on one snapshot. That incident with the Jew was too scary.

  138. chas, I think people who become believers are often eager to start associating with other believers, and are not careful to avoid associating with groups who are teaching false gospels, whatever their particular motives may be. In so doing, they themselves begin to tolerate, then accept, and then promote false gospels.

    Galatians 2:4 refers to “false brethren,” who came in to fool the real brethren. And, it worked. So, it is impossible to tell which is which.

    People who teach false gospels are under God’s curse, no matter why they feel the need to do it. It is irrelevant why they do it, only that they do it.

  139. Here it is May 10, and still my posts of 5/6 and 5/8 have not appeared on that site, nor have I gotten any response to my email. Either something is wrong with my email, or they’re ignoring me. Posts from others have appeared in the thread since, so I know somebody’s checking things.

    Regarding Ironside, I did find an excerpt from his personal testimony online. In it he recalls going home from a party as a teenager and deciding to read his Bible;

    I had an undefined feeling that I had better pray. But the thought came, “What shall I pray for?” Clearly and distinctly came back the answer, “For what God has been offering me for years. Why not then receive it, and thank Him?”

    My dear mother had often said, “The place to begin with God is at Romans 3 or John 3.” To both these Scriptures, I turned and read them carefully. Clearly, I saw I was a helpless sinner, but that for me Christ had died and that salvation was offered freely to all who trusted in Him. Reading John 3:16 the second time, I said, “That will do. “O God, I thank Thee that Thou hast loved me, and given Thy Son for me. I trust Him now as my Savior, and I rest on Thy Word, which tells me I have everlasting life.”

    Then I expected to feel a thrill of joy. It did not come. I wondered if I could be mistaken. I expected a sudden rush of love for Christ. It did not come either. I feared I could not be really saved with so little emotion.

    I read the words again. There could be no mistake. God loved the world of which I formed a part. God gave His Son to save all believers. I believed in Him as my Savior. Therefore, I must have everlasting life. Again, I thanked Him and rose from my knees to begin the walk of faith. God could not lie. I knew I must be saved.

    (Bold, mine.)

    No mention of a need for anything else besides faith. Even the “right feelings”. It looks to me as though–after trusting in Christ alone for his own salvation–Ironside at times fell into the trap of adding a certain amount of “commitment” as being necessary for salvation when explaining the Gospel to others. I’ve seen that in so much “evangelical Bible teachering” since I left the RCC back in the ’70s. It’s like people are afraid to tell others about the free gift of salvation in Christ without attaching some kind of qualification to it just to make sure they won’t be teaching “licentiousness”. No wonder so many people are so confused.

  140. MacArthur could quote Ironside.

  141. Jason, based on Ironside’s purported recollection of this incident, he was frustrating grace.

    Whether or not he the man ever heard the gospel and believed in Jesus as his Savior, we can’t know.

    And, with respect to Ironside himself, we can hope that he had trusted in Christ alone, although we can never be sure.

  142. This anecdote about Ironside tells me that he is as scary as MacArthur. He kept a man out of heaven, and I don’t know if he ever entered himself. This is not a simple case of waffling. When we are in heaven, we will know who the Nicodemuses are.

  143. Chas, I understand what you’re saying, and you may be right. The man may never have heard the clear gospel, due to the unbiblical add-on.

    I was having trouble relating it to Agrippa, since the Apostle Paul gave him the real gospel.

    It’s also possible that the man heard the gospel from Ironside and believed, prior to Ironside adding the unbiblical part. It’s impossible to know. In either case, Ironside muddied the water with this false gospel add-on.

  144. John…

    As I see it, the real issue with the Jewish man in Ironside’s anecdote is that Ironside didn’t give him the true gospel of grace. The man thought he had to “give his heart to Jesus” and then “stand for the faith” to be “truly saved”. As a result, the man knew all about Jesus identity and purpose, but felt he couldn’t rest in the facts of what Jesus did for him because he was told that a “true commitment” is necessary for salvation. It looks to me like a classic case of “Yeah, eternal life is free, but you have to pay for it later.”

    It appears my 2nd try at posting in that thread has been unsuccessful. This afternoon I sent the site an email asking why. The owners of the site have responded to me in the past when I contacted them on other matters, so I expect to get something in response.

  145. Holly, I don’t agree that someone who says he intellectually agrees, but can’t “give his heart to Jesus” is only “almost persuaded.”

    I also think Agrippa was being flippant when he said he was almost persuaded. I don’t think Agrippa believed either “intellectually” or “with his heart.”

    Following is how I interpret what happened with Agrippa:

    First, in Acts 26:3, Paul compliments Agrippa for being an “expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews.”

    Then, in Acts 26:22, Paul said that he was being tried for “saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come.”

    Then, in verse 27, Paul asked Agrippa if he believed the prophets, and then said “I know that thou believest.”

    Paul was doing what we refer to as “leading the witness.” Paul knew that Agrippa, being an expert in all Jewish matters, would not disavow belief in the prophets. (Prior to his having become a believer in Christ, Paul, a Pharisee, would never have disavowed belief in the prophets. But, until he became a believer, he inherently was disavowing the prophets by disavowing Christ, of Whom the prophets said should come.)

    In verse 28, Agrippa gives his flippant response. My attempt at a paraphrase is a flippant remark by Agrippa in which he was saying “yeah, great argument, you almost had me. Now, let me get on with the business at hand.”
    ——————————————————————————————-

    None of us received eternal life by “giving our hearts to Jesus.”

    There is no difference between “head faith” and “heart faith.” If there were, none of us could ever have any assurance of eternal life. It would be a constant introspection of “I know I believe, but did I really put my heart into it?”

    Regarding the man that Chas referenced, based on the man’s previous comment (that his confessing Christ would break his mother’s heart), he reminds me more of the believers in John 12:42: Nevertheless among the chief rulers many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

  146. Chas, really sad, reminds me of Agrippa, almost persuaded…

    Ras – I agree, we’re really near the end.

  147. Ras, I think a lot of people (perhaps most in professing Christendom) are “intellectually convinced” of a false gospel, even if they say they have “heart faith” (it is often still in a false gospel).

  148. Chas
    Years ago I watched a video on Youtube (still there? I don’t know) with a Jewish New Testament scholar (Pinkus Lapid). He had the gospel down pack (almost) but he believed it was a gentile gospel and Jesus was a gentile Messiah. It wasn’t for him/Jews. In other words he was intellectually convinced of false good news. Lapid is dead and gone and we don’t know if he ever came to believe the true good news. We can hold out hope for the Jewish gent you speak of . I think we are so close to the end that the dam is about to burst (concerning Jewish people coming to Christ).

  149. Chas, I have seen at least one example of Ironside using life change as proof of the veracity of Christianity.

    I am not sure about Ironside’s overall body of work, but I do not use him as a source for favorable quotes.

  150. John…
    No, it sure doesn’t sound like grace, which is why I’m wondering about Ironside. I didn’t expect that from him.
    The Jewish man also said told him, “Intellectually, I am convinced, but give Him [Jesus] my heart I cannot.” Apparently, he had been fed the “give Jesus your heart” method of salvation by Ironside. I’m beginning to think that the LS false gospel is more deeply entrenched in the “evangelical church” than I thought.

  151. Chas, it sounds like there are some diehard works “salvationists” frequenting the site you are referencing.

  152. Holly…
    The message that the Ironside quote was taken from was a lecture series given by Ironside. I don’t know exactly when the lecture series was given, but the incident itself happened shortly before the 1906 SF earthquake. The lecture was given sometime after the quake.

    Btw, my comment uploaded to that blog has not yet appeared. Posts there are subject to moderation, and they don’t show until after they are approved. A couple of comments within the last 24 hours have appeared, so either my comment was rejected, or I mis-clicked and it was never uploaded. On the unlikely event that it was lost, I posted a similar comment about a 1/2 hour ago. We’ll see if it ever appears.

    One of the comments that have shown up contained this:
    “[Christ] must be above all and we must be ready and willing to give it all up for Him, be it family, house, job, security, safety, esteem, friends, even body and life. That is discipleship and how it is when we have truly given Him our heart and soul.… (Bold, mine.) They got “discipleship” right I suppose, but note the implied back-door requirement of “commitment” as proof of salvation.

    And this:
    “I have friends and family too and have shared the gospel with them and for one reason or another, they just won’t come to Jesus the way He requires.” The person seems totally oblivious to the fact that “the way He requires” us to come to Him is with empty hands.

  153. Holly, like I said I am not crusading against beer or wine (neither of which is prohibited in scripture/drunkenness is) nor cigars. I have smoked a few cigars in my time and have drunk more than my share of beers. I dron’t dink anymore (I mean don’t drink) and have not smoked a cigar in about a decade (never a regular smoker but was a regular drinker of beer—lotsa beer). When I did either I never thought I was doing it to the glory of God. I drank to be drunk. When I smoked, I smoked for the extra buzz. But neither vice made me unredeemed or unredeemable neither did they make me “holier”. Am I to think that since I “believe” (use the Calvinist definition) and no longer do such things that I am now (maybe) “saved”? Or do I wait a few more years (and a few after those) to know if I have been given saving faith? Naw, my mind is made up (meaning I believe) that Jesus died to pay for my sin and rose from the grave to give eternal life. I might drink to get drunk again. I might smoke a cigar for the buzz again. I can’t imagine doing so and thinking it was done in the name of the Lord. I’ll know I am running the race backwards (and I might—God forbid—enjoy it).

  154. RAS – what an interesting observation on your part. That totally makes sense to me. As long as what they do they assign to the glory of God, then they are sinless. Really, really interesting thought. I do get doing what we do to His Glory, but I think we’ll find out later some were done more in our flesh. The point is, there is no way we can know for sure which each and every thing, but THEY seem to know that their works are all good. But really how sad and scared they must have been inside, even in their pride.

  155. Spurgeon was the Billy Graham of his day.
    Both Spurgeon and Graham preached false gospels.

    Those that emulate either in their false gospel doctrine are under God’s curse.

    The most popular preachers are just that – the most popular. One does not have to preach the gospel accurately to be a popular preacher.

  156. Apparently Spurgeon has a Twitter account. Can you imagine being so obsessed with a man’s teachings that you create a social media account using his name? Charles Spurgeon (whoever he is) recently tweeted this gem, “The greatest enemy to human souls is the self-righteous spirit which makes men look to themselves for salvation.” Whether the quote is from the real Spurgeon or not the irony is that Spurgeon knew he was elect because he “used to”…but no longer… Talk about looking to oneself!

    Chas pointed out Spurgeon’s love of cigars and I have heard him quoted as saying that he smoked to the glory of God. I seen Calvinist’s “cigar and beer” clubs and the men all seem to have “Spurgeon beards”.

    I don’t bring this up to crusade against cigars and beer but rather to point out the hypocritical self righteous attitudes we can all harbor concerning our own vices and sins and Calvinism is a refuge for assigning some sins as beyond the capability of the elect while celebrating other vices and indulgences.

  157. Chas, I wonder. Not sure which articles were which with Ironside, some of his earlier stuff, he was coming out of the Holiness/Arminian/loadship movement. Later in life he spoke on repentance not being what people taught it to be. I sure hope he got it right. I’ve enjoyed his ‘Full Assurance’ and ‘Eternal Security’ but it’s been a number of years since I read it, so sure will have to be careful, thanks.

    On Spurgeon, he repented later in life about smoking cigars. I read somewhere he quit because he came to believe it was wrong. Here’s what’s funny. If when he realized that he believed it to be wrong, did he harbor that one viper for one or two more cigars? And if he had died in between, would his soul have been sunk?

    smh…

  158. Hobbs me too… Spurgeon is a stronghold, so many seminaries tout him as the ‘prince of preachers’ and even seemingly free grace don’t take heed to the Word when they quote him. They assume he was saved, but they don’t ‘prove all things’ and look at his gospel.

    He wasn’t JUST a Calvinist. He was a hardcore holiness type preacher. Prove you’re saved or be damned.

    Yes, that part makes me mad. They won’t go in themselves, and try to keep others out too. It’s because they’re working for someone else.

  159. When I first ran across Ron Shea it was because I was doing my own research on all the instances of repent. I was looking for a secular example in history, and found Plutarch and I believe that’s how I found Ron and you guys too.

    But in my research I found how the word came about from the Latin and the meaning the Roman Catholic church falsely gave it way back when. And so this is why the error is so entrenched within so many false churches.

    Spurgeon’s sermons are just like a regurgitation of Pilgrim’s progress. And he’s made twice the sons of hell in so many preachers who also spew out the same false message that will condemn others.

  160. Jason, yes, very apt.

  161. Hobbs, that is why Holly calls it loadship.

  162. chas,that quote from Ironside does not sound like grace. No one has to confess Christ nor be baptized to have eternal life. Who is to say that the man hadn’t already believed unto eternal life?

  163. Holly…
    I sometimes wonder how Spurgeon would have reacted if someone with today’s attitude toward smoking had asked him when he would “repent” of smoking cigars.

    John…
    Besides Spurgeon, I’m wonder about H.A. Ironside. I just read an article attributed to him on another blog wherein he recounts a long talk he had with a Jew who had just heard Ironside speak at a San Francisco mission. Ironside talked to the man for hours, and at last the man said, “I am absolutely convinced now that Jesus Christ was the Messiah of Israel, and our people made a terrible mistake when they crucified Him so long ago.” Then Ironside told him, “I am glad to hear that. Now I trust you will come right out for Him, and by baptism confess His name.” The man then told Ironside how he couldn’t do that because it would “break his mother’s heart” and get him kicked out of his family, etc. Ironside used the incident as an illustration of how some people “love father and mother more than Christ” and implied that the man forfeited eternal life by not loving Jesus enough to leave his family.

    I posted a short response, saying that it was too bad that Ironside didn’t tell the man that all he needed to do to be saved was receive the free gift of God–eternal life–by simply believing in Christ’s sacrifice for him; that nothing else was required. The man might have believed right there, and then might even have had the strength to “stand for Christ” eventually (though of course that wouldn’t have been required for him to keep eternal life).

    It will be interesting to see the response to my post, which was the first comment.

  164. Hobbs, it makes me angry, too!

  165. As I read the end of that ‘turn or burn’ segment I too immediately recalled the ‘for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men’ verse. I was just going to search for the reference but carried on reading, only to find Holly had already got it. So I have to agree, Spurgeon is making it impossible for people there. And to think I would have just blindly submitted to this stuff before now; it sounds so ‘spiritual’. That sort of oppressive talk can send people to the funny farm – ‘loading men with intolerable burdens’ I’d say! Makes me angry.

  166. Holly, yes! He is setting a condition that no one can really meet.

    Notice how he says “the true penitent…” Penitence is not a requirement for eternal life. He has simply added another condition, thereby creating a false gospel.

    And, since he was a Calvinist, he preached a false god who would have had to have been the cause of the sin that Spurgeon claims to have so detested.

    Spurgeon has done so much harm to the spread of the gospel, and yet he is revered as “the prince of preachers,” and quoted as if he is scripture itself.

  167. These people get these ideas from listening to people like Spurgeon, who Paul Washer often mimics.

    From the Turn or Burn Sermon

    Besides the fact Spurgeon gets the meaning of Repentance wrong, take a close look at what Spurgeon claims about sin:

    If thou dost harbour one of those accursed vipers in thy heart, thy repentance is but a sham. If thou dost indulge in but one lust, and dost give up every other, that one lust, like one leak in a ship, will sink thy soul. Think it not sufficient to give up thy outward vices; fancy it not enough to cut off the more corrupt sins of thy life; it is all or none which God demands. “Repent,” says he; and when he bids you repent, he means repent for all thy sins, otherwise he never can accept thy repentance as being real and genuine. The true penitent hates sin in the race, not in the individual—in the mass, not in the particular. He says, “Gild thee as thou wilt, O sin, I abhor thee! Ay, cover thyself with pleasure, make thyself guady, like the snake with its azure scales—I hate thee still, for I know thy venom, and I flee from thee, even when thou comest to me in the most specious garb.” All sin must be given up, or else you shall never have Christ: all transgression must be renounced, or else the gates of heaven must be barred against you. Let us remember, then, that for repentance to be sincere it must be entire repentance.

    Does this remind you of Matt 23:13 at the very end where he says the gates of heaven will be barred against them?

    “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

  168. Jason, the reason why they don’t talk about what people should do, instead of what people will do, is because they are confused on the matter.

  169. Wow. Indeed, the scripture does not say, “saved people live changed lives”. Instead of saying that, why don’t they just quote Ephesians 2:10 and 1 Corinthians 3:15? Then they can clearly see that saved people should live change lives, and that salvation is not at stake should they fail. But they quote nonexistent scriptures instead.

  170. Holly, exactly!

  171. If the teaching of the Bible is ‘clear’, why don’t they use Scripture in context and let the Word speak for itself?

  172. Excerpt from a comment I read today:

    The teaching of the Bible is clear. Many “believe” in the sense they think/say God exists, Jesus is His Son, etc. But, they live as if they do not because they go their own way while ignoring God. The Bible defines itself, it is spiritually discerned by people with the help of the Holy Spirit. True believers live changed lives as a result of their encounter with the Creator.

    My comment: the phrase “true believer” never occurs in the Bible. A changed life is not inevitable for a believer.

    A person receives eternal life by believing in Christ (alone) as Savior. This does not require “changed lives.” People should never look to changed lives for assurance that they have truly believed.

    One has to be perfect to enter into heaven – not just changed for the better. The only way one receives perfection is by imputation of Christ’s perfect righteousness. That comes the moment one believes in Jesus as his Savior.

  173. Jason, I’ll suppose we’ll never know in this lifetime what is true and what is not in the world, since we know who is prince of it right now and the whole world lies in his sway. But the suppositions and imaginations of people are hard to even pass by on social media. They have ‘proof’ that people are reptiles and other stuff I’d rather not even give any time to. It’s just that the ‘Christian’ community is doing the same over things that aren’t there in Scripture or are not cut and dried, but then they have ‘Bible code’ and they make their ‘shows’ and their followers gasp in amazement at what the person found in the ‘code’. Itching ears. Silly people. Very sad.

  174. Holly, I still can’t fathom why anyone thinks Calvinism/LS is good news.

  175. Interesting comments John.
    And I always wonder how they know if God chose them (if they really believe what their doctrine teaches – a lifetime of perseverance), or how do they know that they aren’t just deceived by God and his supposed ‘evanescent grace’. What is the point of that? Yet people actually believe that’s true, that God would do that, be deceptive. But then again, they don’t realize they’re making him the god that blinds people from the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ (2 Cor 4).

    As for commenter 2, what is his assurance of being saved? That God chose him? Again how does he know? For that matter, how does he know commenter 1 is a ‘brother/sister’? Because by their doctrine they can only know after this person has persevered.

  176. Yeah, it’s amazing what some people will believe. There’s somebody that believes just about anything you could even imagine.

  177. I am astonished at the craziness of Youtube. Until 2016, I never thought I’d live to see the day that a significant fraction of a major social network would take flat earth nonsense seriously.

    But this takes the cake. Some Youtubers are so hysterical that they accuse the US government, FEMA, and Walmart of mass slaughter and chip implantation. And I am wondering, where is the global earthquake? Why is America still here?

  178. A couple from today:

    Commenter number 1:

    Everything happens at it’s appointed time. No human ever converted anyone. God chooses you, not the other way around.

    Commenter number 2, responding to commenter number 1:

    Amen, hallelujah!
    So many deceived by false teachers into thinking that because they “accepted” Him that is their assurance of being saved!
    Salvation is all of the Lord!
    Great comment brother/sister!

    My comment: commenter 1 is seriously confused. Yes, God is omniscient and therefore knows what will happen and when. And, everything that happens, God allows to happen.

    But, that does not mean that God chooses, or ordains, everything that happens. If He did, that would mean that He was responsible for sin, and all other human actions. This is an abominable misrepresentation of the character of God.

    Commenter 2 also has confused Calvinism with Christianity. God desires that all men be saved. He has provided completely for our salvation, but only those who believe in Jesus as Savior have eternal life. God does not choose who will believe. Commenter 2 thinks that his misrepresentation of God is cause for celebration, rather than being a malignment of God’s character.

    The only biblical basis for assurance of eternal life is having believed in Jesus as Savior. Commenter 2 rejects the biblical basis for assurance, with the tacit faux replaceement basis for assurance of having been “chosen” by God for eternal life.

  179. John, the one who was unsure about being full of glee, is probably a response to Paul Washer’s insistence we’ll be applauding, but of course they feel since they were ‘chosen’ everyone is evil.

    The other comment on indirect ways to accept Jesus is so reminiscent of Billy Graham. This type of sidestepping and making up their own opinion on whether one is saved by how wonderful they are, is just sickening to me.

    So many are deceived by these types into thinking they can be good enough to ‘get there’. Even Billy Graham hoped when he got there that ‘St. Peter would let him in’ (never mind there is no such reference).

    The person doesn’t ‘like it when someone takes literal interpretations of the words of the Bible’?

    Ai yi yi, the people get more and more deceived. What interpretation would he like people to take? A guess? Subjective opinion? Majority rules? That’s how they operate.

  180. califgracer – great to hear from you again. Hope all is well with you and yours.

  181. Full text of a comment I read today:

    but there are indirect ways to “accept” Jesus – if you don’t believe, but act in his image, then you are accepting him indirectly – in other words your heart is accepting him even if your brain is not. I do not like when people take such literal interpretations of the words in the Bible – god does not always take things at face value – if you accept jesus as your savior but you are a horrible person, which do you think god would rather have – a horrible person who believes or a saintly person who does not??? I think we all know the answer.

    My comment: According to the Bible, God does not have a preference as to who receives eternal life and who does not. In fact, God wants all men to be saved. But, the Bible is clear that only those who have believed in Jesus as Savior have eternal life. Their behavior has nothing to do with it.

  182. A couple from today:

    While I celebrate the consummation of God’s kingdom with you, I’m not sure we should wait with glee to see the wicked destroyed. After all, unless God had chosen us by his unmerited grace, we’d be right there with firm on the receiving end of His wrath.

    My comment: God wants all men to be saved. He did not choose some to be saved and some not to be saved. Eternal life is available to anyone by grace through faith in Christ.

    “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life.” There is a certain amount of confidence one can have. There is evidence to look for.

    My comment: One cannot have assurance, based solely on the word of God, if he is looking for other evidence based in changes within himself. The only evidence to look for is the biblical accounts of the gospel, and whether or not you believe the evidence.

  183. Reminds me of Brennan Manning.

  184. Hi So Cal Exile:
    I, too, am a Conservative Christian in So Cal, a state run by leftists (sigh). Re. Steve McVey, I read a couple of his books years ago (one was called, “Grace Walk,” the other, “Grace Land”). I recall some good things in the books speaking out against legalism, performance-based Christianity, compulsory duty based on fear and guilt in favor of experiencing freedom and joy in Christ, similar to Charles Swindoll’s, “The Grace Awakening.” Unlike Swindoll’s book, however, which in places condemned lordship salvation teaching, although he never labeled it as such, McVey’s writing, contrariwise, exhorts Christians to all get along. He claims not to be an ecumenicist, but he makes the following statements in “Grace Walk,” 1995, Harvest House, p. 164: “I am not suggesting that doctrine is unimportant. The faithful church holds to indispensable tenets of belief. However, a grace perspective on the church doesn’t demand that we all agree on every detail of faith and practice. . . . there must be room somewhere within the structure of God’s church for unity among the various members of the ecclesiastical family. Just because another brother may be different doesn’t automatically make him wrong. A grace perspective allows diversity among the family of God.”
    I once emailed his organization to get a clarifying explanation on its stance on lordship salvation teaching. The spokesperson who responded had no idea what lordship salvation was.

  185. SoCal, the author of “The Shack” wrote the forward to one of Mcvey’s books.

    That doesn’t really commend Mcvey to me.

    Please see previous comments linked below:

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/08/03/grace-ecumenism/#comment-40446

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/08/03/grace-ecumenism/#comment-40447

  186. Thoughts on Steve McVey? He’s got a few books on Amazon about grace, and gets the same accusations from the Lordship crowd that we do.

  187. One from today:

    Catholics don’t believe we can “work our way into heaven” without faith in Jesus. But to say that “I can accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior” and do nothing to put that faith into action and be saved is not Biblical.

    My comment: I heavily suspect that this commenter means that receiving eternal life requires faith in Christ plus some (unspecified and unquantified) works. That is consistent with Lordship “salvation,” which is a false gospel that acknowledges that Jesus is necessary for eternal life, but does not acknowledge that Jesus is enough for eternal life.

  188. Keith, that’s a very good scriptural reference for what seems to be going on with some of these religious folks.

    The reason we featured this article was to highlight what often passes for Christianity online. People will go back and forth defending their faith against detractors, whether or not their comments are consistent with grace.

  189. The zeal that the Calvinist/LS crowd has to make “disciples” or “Christ Followers” reminds me of what Jesus said about the Pharisees in Matt. 23:15:

    “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves”.

  190. Jason, agree.

    The most ardent “defenders of the faith” often don’t have any understanding of the gospel.

  191. That comment also ended with two things that are not conditions for eternal life. As usual

  192. Here is an excerpt from a commment I read today:

    I’d argue it’s more than just having a relationship with Jesus that gets you saved. Judas had a relationship with Christ, and, well, see how that turned. God gave us specific commands to adhere to, and expects us to use his gifts wisely.

    My comment: We receive eternal life by grace through faith in Christ. Nothing more, nothing less. As the commenter aptly pointed out, Judas was a disciple and he did not have eternal life. However, the reason Judas did not have eternal life was because he did not believe in Jesus as his Savior.

  193. Here are excerpts from a couple of comments that I read today:

    Commenter number 1:

    I’m a sinner, but I believe and I believe I’ll barely slide across the plate if I just keep trying to get through those gates with some spark of goodness that causes me to earn my way.

    My comment: This person is confused. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ.

    Commenter number 2 (in response to commenter number 1):

    It is not a matter of earning entrance into God’s kingdom. But of accepting the grace he has offered through Jesus Christ, receiving the Holy Spirit and doing your part as he will show you.

    My comment: “Doing your part as he will show you” is not a requirement for receiving eternal life. If this commenter believes that we receive eternal life by grace through faith in Christ, he should have clearly delineated how we receive eternal life from what God’s will is for our lives once we become believers.

  194. Phil, yes, a treadmill is a good analogy.

  195. And john, How often have we heard church sermons about what we need to do instead of what we allow the Spirit to do through us? A treadmill is a great example of works salvation.

  196. Hobbs, you are right – we need to focus on Jesus. It is the enemy, not God, who wants us to focus on ourselves.

  197. I particularly like Curtis’s expression that he uses often on this blog: ‘the faith-rest life’.

    Without faith in Christ and our trust in His finished work alone on our behalf there can be no rest for anyone; we will continually be looking over our shoulder wondering if our works/behaviour are satisfying God enough to let us into heaven.

    Peace of heart and mind comes from making our loving Saviour the object of our faith, NEVER our works or behaviour.

    Takes a while for that to really sink in, did for me, still is sinking in.

    But it’s the most wonderful, surest foundation.

    So yup, me too glad that God worked through Jack Weaver to show me the ‘faith-rest life’.

  198. I am glad to be out of the woods.

    Afshin Yaghtin has a six hour video that was very interesting. It shows the processes people go through when they come out of false teaching into the gospel. Near the end, they even questioned what it means to be Baptist. Rarely do I see such openness from an IFB group. They made favorable mention of Ralph Yankee Arnold.

  199. kat, we are glad you are off of the hamster wheel.

    A Christian is simply one who has received eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The false teachers are everywhere, keeping lost people lost, and trying to put believers back under the law.

    As the late Jack Weaver used to say, “the woods is full of ’em.”

  200. Jason, the LS crowd makes regular reference to Matthew 7:21-23 without knowing its real meaning.

  201. Katmazdobelieve

    Johninnc,
    The quote you shared states that True Christians obey the commands of Christ and love the Lord with all of their heart, mind and soul and love their neighbors as themselves.

    My comment: True. True Christians do one Christ’s command to rest in Him and his final work not learn and practice the art of being a Pharisee.
    I was invited to a women’s conference about being a spiritual warrior. I passed because the course is really about how to be a lawkeeper.
    I ran that hamster wheel too long. Now that I am off I will never forget back.
    The wheel kept me chasing something I can never have apart from Christ.

  202. I used to think that “true Christian” was implied by Matthew 7:21-23. I thought I had to be one in order to escape this judgement. Oh how I would brood over myself: was I really doing what Jesus said, or was I paying lip service? Armstrong exploited that weakness, as did Wurmbrand, Michael Brown, and all the false teachers. Did he really say to keep the Sabbath, be a martyr, or to disregard everything Paul said about my liberty in Christ? I eventually realized that LS itself says, Lord, Lord, and does not do what he says in John 3:16.

  203. Following is an excerpt from a comment that I read today:

    True Christians obey the commands of Christ and love the Lord with all of their heart, mind and soul and love their neighbors as themselves.

    My comment: According to the Bible, a Christian is someone who has received eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    The Bible never, ever uses the term “true Christian.”

  204. Brent, your experiences with LS sound similar to mine and other here. The peace and joy of God’s amazing grace to you.

  205. Chas, very good point about the “purpose driven” movement. And, getting people “working together” in the flesh under the guise of “getting busy for God” is very deceptive.

  206. Brent, thanks for sharing!

    I am very thankful that you are no longer sitting under LS teaching.

  207. “You gotta get busier” seems to be a mark of LS churches. Not coincidentally, it’s also a mark of “purpose driven” churches. The flesh trying to be “spiritual”, trying to redeem itself.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if “getting busy for God” turns out to be the leverage used by the false prophet to rally the people of the world to serve the beast.

  208. Just wanted to stop in and give a word of encouragement toward this site. I visit this site (but rarely comment) often and it has helped me understand one of the most misleading and subtle teachings out there which is LS.

    About 5-6 years ago I, by the grace of God, was introduced the errors of LS, which was the teaching I was setting under for the past 10-12 years. When I first started that church, I knew something wasn’t quiet right about the phrase make “Him Lord and Savior.” However, I was clueless to the concept of LS teachings. But I distinctly remember it not setting well within me about that phrase. What most people don’t realize that listen to and encourage LS teachings is that it prevents LOST people from hearing and believing the Gospel. What could happen, is a lost person under LS teaching could possibility jump to “works” to see if they are “truly saved” instead of hearing a clear Gospel message and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Thankfully, I was saved under a non-LS teaching church, however, started attending an LS leaning church a short while after I started college. I was saved but I quickly began questioning my salvation more and more because I wasn’t living up to the “standards” that man placed on me to determine if I was “truly saved.” Ironically, when I was looking to myself for “signs” of “true” salvation, what I was really doing was spending most of my time focusing on myself. But that is one of the subtly of LS teachings. To focus on anything but Christ’s finished work, mostly my works.

    Today, I enjoy not worrying about “making” sure I’m saved by my works. I trust in Jesus Christ’s finished work and have the gift of God, eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. I am so thankful for the Lord showing me through my new church, this site, and His word about how to rightly divide.

    This site IS a grace oasis and I am forever grateful.

    -Brent

  209. Incidentally, David Platt is a graduate of the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary (NOBTS).

  210. John, I agree.

    I recently heard a sermon online by Greg Durell, the pastor of Heritage Bible Church in Terrytown, LA, just outside New Orleans. He said that Chuck Kelley, the president of the SBC New Orleans Theological Seminary, allowed the Roman Catholic Archbishop of New Orleans to speak to students at the seminary without offering an opposing viewpoint. The spirit of ecumenism is alive and well in the SBC.

  211. Keith, according to Wikipedia, David Platt is the president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s International Missions Board.

    Just wow. How can anyone who understands and believes the gospel have anything to do with the SBC?

  212. Jason, MacArthur is an unfortunate choice for anyone hoping for illumination.

  213. People in my family’s circle of friends are looking for bible study guides on assorted topics, such as women in ministry. My mom had the misfortune of picking out a MacArthur book, forgetting that MacArthur is one of the men who caused me trouble. MacArthur sometimes says insensitive things. I wish people would spend more time on the gospel. I can’t recommend any good books on that other stuff. There are too many bones to spit out. I tried to recommend Secure Forever, but that wasn’t about women. When I tell people that Jesus is not a probation officer, it brightens their day. I think a hundred solid pages on the gospel would do the same.

  214. Keith, Platt’s new book has the same false gospel as his other books.

    It will likely become the new go to book for “Bible studies” throughout the land.

  215. Who among us here at expreacherman is going to be the first to purchase the new book “Follow Me” by David Platt? (Sarcasm intended)

    The following is a short description of the book’s contents:

    “What did Jesus really mean when he said, “Follow Me”?
    In this new book, David Platt, author of the New York Times bestselling book, Radical: Taking Back Your Faith from the American Dream, contends that multitudes of people around the world culturally think they are Christians yet biblically are not followers of Christ.

    “Scores of men, women, and children have been told that becoming a follower of Jesus simply involves believing certain truths or saying certain words. As a result, churches today are filled with people who believe they are Christians . . . but aren’t. We want to be disciples as long as doing so does not intrude on our lifestyles, our preferences, our comforts, and even our religion.

    “Revealing a biblical picture of what it means to truly be a Christian, Follow Me explores the gravity of what we must forsake in this world, as well as the indescribable joy and deep satisfaction to be found when we live for Christ.
    The call to follow Jesus is not simply an invitation to pray a prayer; it’s a summons to lose your life—and to find new life in him. This book will show you what such life actually looks like”.

    My comment: becoming a disciple or Christ follower requires first receiving eternal life by believing and resting on the truths of Christ’s finished work and His promise of eternal life for all who believe it. Assurance of eternal life is not conditioned on one’s intentions to be a Christ follower or the ongoing acts which should characterize a Christ follower,

    Platt seems to invite his readers to receive and have assurance of eternal life by becoming a lifelong follower of Christ, which to him requires forsaking worldly comforts and persevering in faithful service to the end of their lives.

    2 Tim. 3:13:

    “But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived”.

  216. Jason, the whole thing is a muddled mess.

  217. “It’s not about you”

    I really hate that part. Jesus died for you. Of course it’s about you, or do they just not get it? By these words, they intimate that Jesus did not die for you. They exchange the atonement for martyrdom and the gospel for foolishness. Jesus’ feelings are hurt.

  218. Keith, agree that church attendance is not a requirement for proving one has eternal life.

    Whoever made the comment doesn’t really seem to understand the gospel.

  219. Saw this on Facebook today:

    “It’s not about you!

    Being a Christian is not individual-spirituality, self determined service, or rationalized obedience. One of the tests for true saving faith is the desire to gather with God’s people as the body of Christ and serving one another in a local church. To really do this you have to get over your self and the deception that God overlooks waywardness.
    Many people think of God in a therapeutic moralistic way. That view of God is idolatry since the object of worship is really you”.

    My comment: there is no such thing as “true saving faith”. Faith does not save; the object of faith does. Christ and Him crucified and raised is the only proper object of faith for receiving eternal life.

    Lack of desire to gather with God’s people does not indicate that one has not made Christ the object of his or her faith and received eternal life. It may, however, indicate that he or she is not making his or her faith productive and fruitful as God intends (Jas. 2:14, 17; Eph. 2:10).

  220. “which means you try not to sin again”

    What a load to bear and what a load of malarkey! God grades on a curve? He imputes perfect righteousness for effort? Trying (and we/he/she will never fail to fail) doesn’t resolve the sin issue nor does it render satisfaction to God. Wasn’t that the purpose of the Law—to show that trying is not gonna cut it?

    This is the problem with fruit fads. One person wants to see oranges and another wants bananas. The gospel is what God has received from the work of Christ, that’s the gospel. All the rest of it is fruit of the gospel—oranges, bananas and all! What Christ did on the cross satisfied the very heart of God and we are given the gift of life through faith alone. This is why fruit inspectors redefine faith as they do to always means faith plus…

  221. Excerpt from an internet comment I read today:

    Without breaking His own rules, the only way He could save you was by paying the just penalty that you were supposed to pay. To qualify, you need to repent of your sins (not just feel sorry for them, but also to turn away from them) and accept Him as your Lord (which means you try not to sin again).

    My comment: Jesus did pay for our sin. We receive eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. There is no requirement to be sorry for sin, to turn from sin, nor to try not to sin again in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. If any of those things were required, then eternal life would not be a free gift, but would be a trade for our willingness to do those works.

    The commenter is not teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, but is promoting the false gospel of Lordship “salvation.” This same commenter has made quite a few comments trying to prove the reality of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Unfortunately, his testimony is that he isn’t trusting in Christ alone for eternal life.

  222. Excerpt from a comment I read today:

    If you believe, you are saved…but, here’s the catch…if you believe, you wouldn’t wake up each morning with the desire to sin against others. If you believe, while you may not be perfect, you are going to do your best to be a faithful servant of Jesus Christ during your time on earth as a human.

    My comment: There is no “catch.” Nor does the Bible guarantee that a Christian will always do his best to follow Christ in obedience. Doing one’s best is a work.

  223. Jason, I have prayed for those who attended the funeral. I am glad that you were able to share the gospel booklet with this gentleman.

  224. A friend of my family recently passed away. I had given him a booklet, and it was discovered lying open at his bedside. He had been a recovering drug addict. At the funeral, they said he was in heaven. I don’t know how clear they are on the gospel, but there are no fruit inspectors at funerals. Bad things are never said. Would that these people were consistent and applied every day what was preached that funeral.

  225. When reading yesterday, I missed the point that the commenter confessed works alone. I agree, very telling.

  226. One today regarding the execution of a condemned murderer:

    Original commenter: I bet he’s screaming and thrashing in hell right now, one can hope.

    Responder: No hoping needed. HE IS!

    My response: Why would someone hope for another person to end up in hell, when it its God’s will that all men be saved? And, how can someone conclusively assert that someone else is in hell, unless the Bible specifically states it for that person?

  227. John, this quote demonstrates that salvation by faith-plus-works, when taken to its logical conclusion, inevitably leads to salvation by works alone.

  228. One from today, regarding the late Billy Graham:

    No one can refute the millions upon millions lives that have given their hearts to Jesus by solely listening to this man preach. His good works alone will get him into heaven.

    My comment: You just can’t make this stuff up!

    No one ever received eternal life by giving their hearts to Jesus. Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    Billy Graham’s good works will not get him into heaven, nor help him get into heaven. If Billy Graham is in heaven, it is because he believed in Jesus as his Savior at some point in his life, despite the false gospel of works that he so often preached.

    The commenter’s comment reveals a complete lack of understanding of the gospel.

  229. Keith, you are right – the only real assurance of eternal life comes from believing the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement for our sins, as evidenced by His resurrection.

  230. I found this online recently regarding the meaning Romans 10:9, 10. Although the website on which the following quote appears does not necessarily subscribe to the expressed view, it does articulate the common LS (mis)understanding of what it means to “believe in thine heart that God hath raised [Christ] from the dead” in Rom. 10:9:

    “There are numerous options given to us by commentators and theologians for the Rom. 10:9-10 passage…When one truly ‘believes with the heart,’ he or she will eventually ‘confess Jesus as Lord.’ This will be the evidence that genuine faith has been exercised. What takes place in the heart in faith eventually reaches the lips. True Christians publicly identify with Christ. In Bob’s case, only God knows whether the faith in his heart was real. If it were, Bob would have confessed Christ publicly had he not died”.

    Oftentimes, in Biblical terminology, to “love” a first alternative and “hate” a second alternative is to exercise the will to choose the first instead of the second. In Rom. 9:13, Paul wrote, “As it is written, Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated” to describe God’s choice to select Jacob instead of Esau as the forefather of the nation of Israel. In 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Paul wrote that those who choose to accept the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation will do so because they “received not the love of the truth”. Therefore, those who “receive the love of the truth” will be those who choose to reject the Antichrist and believe the truth of the gospel.

    Paul articulated the gospel in 1 Cor. 15:3 and 4: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures…

    To “believe in thine heart that God hath raised [Christ] from the dead” in Rom. 10:9 is to choose to believe the truth that the resurrection proves conclusively that Christ paid the full penalty for one’s sins past, present and future. Since the resurrection proves that God was satisfied with the payment for sin’s penalty that Christ made on one’s behalf, the logical implication of such belief is that the atonement made is sufficient and that no additional offering for sin in any form is necessary to either secure eternal life or have immediate assurance of eternal life (Heb. 10:18). The one who accepts the full, once-for-all payment for the penalty of one’s sin which Christ secured, and the proof of such payment which the resurrection provides, has chosen to believe the truth that no further payment in the form of confession, good works, turning from sin, sacraments, animal sacrifices or any other offering is needed for immediate assurance of eternal life. Hence, he or she has “received the love of the truth”, and thus, believes in his or her heart that God raised Christ from the dead. This same idea is conveyed in Acts 8:37, in which Philip told the Ethiopian eunuch that he could be baptized “if you believe with all your heart”. To “believe with all your heart” is to believe that faith in Christ on the basis of His death, burial and resurrection, without any kind of “evidence” or “confirmation”, is sufficient to know that one has eternal life as a present possession.

    The one who is falsely converted under and sustains a belief in Lordship salvation or any other system which teaches works for assurance of eternal life, on the other hand, does not accept the implication that the resurrection proves conclusively that Christ made the final and complete sacrifice and offering for sin’s penalty so that no additional offering is necessary for one to secure or have immediate assurance of eternal life. Instead, the false convert maintains the belief that ongoing sacrifices and offerings in the form of a changed or transformed life, being a “Christ follower”, turning from sin, doing good works, etc., are necessary for assurance. Although a false convert may assent to the fact that Christ rose from the dead, he or she has not received the love of the truth, and thus, does not believe in his or her heart that Christ rose from the dead within the meaning of Rom. 10:9, 10. False teachers, in explaining Rom. 10:9, will often say something like “a person’s faith must be ‘heartfelt’, which implies that a certain kind of life will follow a “genuine profession”.

    A case in point is John Piper’s commentary on Rom. 9:10, which can be found on his Desiring God website:

    Therefore, believing in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead is much more than accepting a fact. It means being confident that God is for you, that he has closed ranks with you, that he is transforming your life, and that he will save you for eternal joy…

    According to Piper, one must offer up a continual or ongoing sacrifice or offering for sin in the form of a transformed life in order to have assurance of future eternal life. According to Heb. 10:26-31, the one who labors under such a false belief system can never have any real assurance that he has been delivered from sin’s penalty as he never knows whether he has done enough, turned enough or sacrificed enough to appease or “prove” he has been delivered from God’s judgment. In contrast, scripture promises immediate assurance of present eternal life (John 5:24) to all who believe in the sufficiency of the atonement as evidenced by the resurrection.

  231. One from today:

    A Christian is one who has resign from worldly life of sin, has confessed all sins to God and has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. One must believe in Jesus from the heart and not just by saying it. Read the Bible: NOT EVERYONE THAT SAYS “LORD, LORD” WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

    My comment: this is works for Salvation, with a lot of yelling in capital letters. According to the Bible, a Christian is someone who has believed in Jesus as Savior. This quote seems to be saying that it’s author doesn’t believe in Christ alone.

  232. I was in a science mood. I went on youtube to listen to physics videos, found one that is four hours long. It was mostly string theory and way over my head. Evolution motivates the money wasted on string theory. Anywho, I checked out the guy’s channel and looked at the playlists. So much was in German. I noticed a playlist on Christianity. I looked at a video on it, expecting the pope, and what do you know? It was Steve Anderson. Can science prove KJV Only? Nope, better luck with string theory.

  233. A fictional character tries to solve the problem of death with magic. In the real world, they make the attempt with technology. Extremely similar. This is called Transhumanism or Kurzweilianism. 1 Corinthians 15:26 comes to mind. Transhumanism could possibly be an aspect of the mark.

  234. John wow. Yes, the problem of sin, death and the grave, all overcome by Him.

  235. There was an interesting article today in the New York Times entitled “The Men Who Want to Live Forever.”

    It was about billionaires who are working with biotech companies to extend life and who, as some put it, are “solving the problem of death.”

    My comment: This is folly. The problem of death was solved by Jesus.

    John 11:25-26: Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

  236. Jason, I know what you mean. Some messengers and sites just don’t seem right, and sometimes it’s hard to put a finger on it.

  237. I agree, and I am pretty sure the commenter agrees. It is not just the words that are used by the man who made the video, but also the spirit in which he says them. Both the commenter and I could perceive something clearly wrong. I can empathize with people who are persecuted, just like I can empathize with people who are sick and suffering. But when I hear comments like “not if but when”, I go into introspective mode.

  238. Jason, withstanding real persecution is something that I think would bring eternal rewards, but no one has to do that to prove he has eternal life.

  239. On a spiritually jarring video about persecution, a female commenter had this to say:

    “im sorry i dont agree. thats not even scriptural what you just said. not all were called to be preachers, some are mothers without husbands like me. my husband died 10 years ago and if i were going to be killed for opening my mouthand then what happens to my little girl ? rape ? oh no. so you cant sat that in every instance. if i were alone i dont have a problem standing and preaching to anyone. denying him is different. they have you in front of a guillotine yea then its time your going to die then now is the time not to deny him. but to go out and preach to ppl knowing that they will kill you for it is crazy. Now if God Almighty tells me to preach..Then i will preach”

    My comment: my sentiments exactly! Persecution has become a loaded term, and relevant scripture gets twisted like James 2. That video made contradictory statements that reminded me of Calvinism. Abraham was not persecuted, and yet his reward is great. Calling petty injustices persecution sounds to me very much like reviling. I want nothing to do with it.

  240. Hixson uses Jesus Paid it All as intro in his Not By Works radio program. Mark Ratcliffe (friend of Holly’s) changed the lyrics of Victory in Jesus by taking the repent of sin out.

  241. The hymn, “Jesus paid it all”.. I am sure was meant to only say that salvation is truly ALL from Christ. I’m sure the writer meant there is no requirement from us, and thus, no way we could ever repay this as ordinary humans.
    This song is one my favorite, and only says that forgiveness and salvation are purely an eternal gift. If I were going to scrutinize this hymn then I could end up scrutinizing everything.
    I read the lyrics over and I don’t see anything LS in it: it’s pure grace: it’s title “Jesus Paid it all” says it all.

  242. Yes, the song isn’t clear. I picked up on it initially because I sensed it may have been written from an LS ‘backloading’ perspective.

  243. The song does not make it clear whether it is an add-on or a response. The quote sounds like clear LS. Laboring under loadship makes us all understandably hypersensitive. I myself struggle with “Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe”. I think that “owe” is a debt of gratitude, yet I am still uncomfortable. Paid in full means paid in full.

  244. Holly, I’ve just noticed, the verse in that song I found was: love and laughter and joy everafter, ours for the taking, just follow the Master. And for Johninnc’s other recent post he found this quote from Got Questions?: Faith must involve a personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). It is more than being convinced of the truth of the gospel; it is a forsaking of this world and a following of the Master… I’m thinking, at least the song makes a mention of the free gift, the other quote may well just turn people away, tragically.

  245. Holly, I thought the same thing.

  246. After being here for more than a year, I absolutely agree. The contradictions against the free gift are the root cause of all the instability.

  247. John:

    //There are many examples of people doing wonderful things in the name of their religion, let’s not forget them.//

    I feel pretty sure your mind went straight here:
    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matt 7:22-23

  248. What helps keep me grounded is knowing that eternal life is a gift, and not a trade.

    A gift is something freely given, without cost or obligation to the recipient.

    Grace need never be mixed with insistence on life change of any sort.

    Of course, it is God’s will that believers live faithfully. But, it is not a demand for the free gift of eternal life, nor is it an inevitability.

  249. About eight years ago, I considered Wilkinism. Later, an Amazon comment coming from a MacArthurite caused me to waver. Martuneac warned me about Wilkin. Then I was tossed to and fro by Zeller, Got Questions, and Philip B Brown. I also came here briefly and wavered.

    Now Brown turned out to be Saturday keeping, and his new wind of doctrine taught that both unbelievers and carnal Christians would be resurrected at the Millennium in order to complete the spiritual journey. This strange combination of kingdom exclusion and second chance had an appeal. This was probably the worst doctrine that tossed me, since Armstrongism.

    Meanwhile, Hyles, Anderson and Stewart threw me for a loop. Hyles in particular would come out strong against fruit inspection, but not if I read an NIV. Other inspected fruit included: Christmas trees, being a Narnia fan, wine vs grape juice, rock music, the “beat”. The one question that lingered on my mind was: is any fruit necessary at all? Hyles did harm, and I was not willing to get my lasting impression from him.

    Last year, I read “I Never Knew You” by Bowen, who was blameless, and I knew I was not going back.

  250. Hobbs, I would have done better to word it following is not necessarily synonymous with believing. I would agree with John 10 there, and the sheep. 🙂 In Christ, Holly

  251. Following is a comment I read today:

    Those who do harm in the name of any religion are truly evil and should not be the lasting impression one takes from that religion. There are many examples of people doing wonderful things in the name of their religion, let’s not forget them.

    My comment: People who do kind things, under the name of any religion or under the name of no religion at all, have not done anything to merit eternal life. Nor have they done anything to prove that they have received eternal life. The fact that adherents of any religion can point to good works and life transformation should reinforce why focusing on those things for evidence of eternal life is futile.

    Eternal life is receiced by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

  252. Hi Holly, I admit I was just going by John’s comment from his previous link where he says to a commenter: ‘We think “follow” in (John 10:27) means believing in Jesus as the only hope of eternal life’. It’s also stated that way in the ‘Difficult Verses’ section. Only that it can be synonymous, perhaps? Regards.

  253. Hobbs – Following is not synonymous with believing. Many who followed Him never believed, one betrayed Him. Many who believed on Him didn’t follow Him, some denied Him, some fled, some stayed carnal until death. But their soul was saved. God bless you this year.

  254. Yeah, so I’m really being a bit finicky with that song aren’t I. Following can be synonymous with believing. It’s a good song actually. Sorry Cliff. 🙂

  255. Jason, I’m glad!

  256. It cleared up my mind about John 10:27. Glory to God in the highest.

  257. Evidence of LS double-speak in a Christmas pop song.

    From ‘Mistletoe and Wine’, specifically this bit:

    ‘Love and laughter and joy everafter,
    ‘Ours for the taking, just follow the Master’

    So which is it; free for the taking or requiring a lifetime of following?

    Both?

    Sounds like another muddled message.

  258. Hobbs and Jason, funny to come here and see the comments about the rich, and Americans in relation to the rest of the world. What we have, even the poorest of us to those of us who are doing better. Money comes and money goes, we can die tomorrow, I was thinking about that the other day, how many possessions we all seem to have without thinking about it. I know I am guilty of having too much in that it’s time in my life to simplify some. I had decided that for Christmas, I am going to enjoy giving some of it away. I’m not going to buy a bunch of new, but enjoy giving some of the things I already have as gifts to my children with a story and a relation to the Word regarding it. This has been so much more enjoyable this year as the focus continues to be on Him in joy, so much comes to mind with each thing I see. When we begin to understand grace, joy and also tears of gratefulness really begin to touch our lives more and more. God bless you all.

  259. Compared to the unborn, even the Africans are rich. We are all rich because we have access to oxygen and can breathe. So that makes us all guilty of wealth. Sorry to confuse you further, lol. The only way to be poor enough to be saved by poverty is to have never been born. But thank God for grace. With God, through grace, salvation is possible and accessible without the self-negating rudimentary teachings of this world.

  260. Hobbs, there is a lot of bad teaching.

    Sometimes, off-hand comments can provide an open door for talking about the truth of the gospel.

  261. I remember mentioning the ‘rich man and lazarus’ passage to a friend a while back. He said something like ‘wow, yes, that is quite a chilling account, I’m glad I’m not a rich man. Oh, but then we are rich compared to starving Africans’. Since I always take my friend very seriously, I momentarily panicked, thinking ‘what is he saying, that we need to give everything to the poor to really be saved in the end?’

    Sounds like neither of us really trusted being saved by grace alone!

    But, with such a barrage of false teaching doing the rounds it’s so easy to become bewitched. I guess most Christians are, on and off.

    Yes, this blog is a real gem.

  262. Jason, agree that the stuff you cited is bad teaching that sows confusion.

  263. CAnswersTV omitted to say that with God, all things are possible, and with that double talk sowed doubts that negated all the accurate statements on salvation that filled the rest of his extremely long comment.

    Without teaching that belief in Jesus puts me under probation, he has already implied it by his subtle accusations. These false teachers deceive even when they do not teach heresy. It is such a blessing to find this oasis of grace. Without it, my doubts would still be throbbing under that pile of rubbish, and my itching ears would be perked up to gather more crumbs. And I would continue on deceiving and being deceived.

  264. Jason, Jesus also said that with men, this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.

    Earning one’s way to heaven was not possible for the rich young ruler, nor for anyone else.

    Someone who is rich need not acknowledge he is rich in order to receive eternal life.

  265. From a self-comment on the youtube channel of CAnswersTV, which deals with the web of lies surrounding Hank Hanegraaff. Most of its information is of excellent quality, but in the middle of an extremely long comment, I find this piece of rubbish:

    “Statistics provided in this video show that even the poorest Americans living in the United States have a better net income than most of the world. For instance, according to Forbes magazine, June 1, 2013, the bottom 5% of United States citizens are richer than 68% of people living throughout the rest of the world; U.S. citizens who make $50,000 a year are richer than 99.69% of the people in the rest of the world; U.S. citizens who make $20,000 a year are richer than 96% of the people in the rest of the world, U.S. citizens who make $10,000 a year are richer than 84% of the people in the rest of the world; U.S. citizens who make $100,000 a year are in a category that only 8 out of every 10,000 people achieve in the entire world. Will it be difficult for rich Americans who don’t think they’re rich to enter into the kingdom of heaven? Jesus already gave the answer”

    My comment: what does being an American and being rich have to do with receiving eternal life? I know that I am a lazy, selfish person who has it easy. I also know that as base as these qualites are, they are not sins that I need to repent of in order to receive eternal life, since repenting of sins is never a requirement to receive eternal life. It is precisely such subtle lies that had me confused so long. It is stupidity like this that also argues for redistributing wealth, so everyone has equal probability of getting to heaven. False teachers like this are part of the problem, and they aren’t helping anything.

    For all the good that Walter Martin did, he never to my knowledge exposed the heresy for lordship probation or the cult known as MacArthurism. He also omitted to point out that the protestant reformation reformed nothing.

  266. One from today:

    God does not pick and choose when someone asks for forgiveness. It is up to the individual to turn from their sinning ways.

    My comment: Neither asking for forgiveness, nor turning from sinning ways are required to receive the free gift of eternal life. Eternal life is receiced by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

  267. I just saw a video on Youtube by a conservative commentator (I do not know whether he has believed in Jesus Christ for eternal life) where he asked Amazons Alexa about Jesus Christ. Alexa’s answer was “Jesus Christ is a fictional character”. He then asked about Muhammad and Alexa said that he was a “very wise prophet”. He asked how Muhammad treated his wives and Alexa said she did not know. Reminds me of a line song I used to listen to “We are living in the future, I tell you how I know, I read it in the paper 15 years ago” but you can switch bible for paper. Crazy stuff.

  268. I wasn’t sure where to post this, but I saw the following description of a show on the EWTN (RCC) Network:

    Fr. Donald H. Calloway, MIC, presents men and women who have changed history through their trust in Our Lady and the rosary in “26 Champions of the Rosary: The Essential Guide to the Greatest Heroes of the Rosary.”

    My comment: This is idolatry, plain and simple.

  269. Johninnc, There was a guy who had a group following after him, I was incredulous that they would hear that Paul was a false teacher, but on the other hand, there are those who are unable to understand the whole counsel of God, so they instead relegate entire books written to the church as solely to the Jews. And in so doing, they may not call John, Jude, Peter and James false apostles, but they literally go against the purpose of the cross to make two men into one. Some have such a hard time with these other written epistles, they go so far that one teacher I ran into was calling it ‘meeting’ vs. church because we were not the church but the mystery.

  270. Jason, it is evident to me that those who question Paul can clearly see that he teaches salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. However, they so adamantly oppose grace that the only way they can explain away the Pauline epistles is to say that they are not inspired.

  271. I have been exposed to these teachings against Paul. For instance, Craig Winn draws people in with his sharp analysis of Islam on his Prophet of Doom site. And then he questions Paul and goes off into sacred name nonsense, denial of the Trinity, and Judaizing. One of his strange teachings is the femininity of the Holy Spirit.

    Those who question Paul also have to bear in mind that Peter and Luke supported him and that John similarly presents the gospel as simple. When Paul says that even “we” are under a curse if a different gospel is preached, he clearly includes himself. We ought to question and reject tradition, a pastor, a martyr, a church, or anything else, if it contradicts the very gospel. It is what it means to be Bereans. I do wonder what part of Galatians 1 people don’t get.

  272. Following are excerpts from a comment I read today:

    (Paul) Who is the 13th Aposte and was warned about by Jesus in Matt(hew) as being someone who talks you from following the Law. Jesus also mentioned him as a liar in Rev(elation) 2:2? Look it up.

    Paul offered “cheap grace” and said:

    “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than there one we have preached to you, let him be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!” He also had people call him “father” and said “imitate me.”

    Jesus said follow the Law. If you follow Christ, you follow Christ. Otherwise, your a Paulist and follow fake teachings.

    My comment: The writer is incorrect that Paul offered “cheap grace.” Paul gave the good news of the amazing, free grace that is offered through Christ Jesus.

    The writer is also incorrect about Paul being a fake teacher, and about Paul contradicting the teachings of Jesus. They are in complete harmony.

    The writer is trying to deceive people into thinking that the Pauline epistles are not the inspired Word of God, because the writer is aware that Paul preaches grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    No one will ever receive eternal life by law keeping.

  273. Holly, exactly. Just a blind person telling someone else to “get educated” is not very helpful. I guess it would be better than getting educated by them.

  274. Johninnc, every time I see those kinds of comments, I just shake my head in sadness. They don’t even see their own pride and arrogance, if they truly thought that what they were preaching was true, you’d think they’d deliver the message to you meekly, gently, instructing you with His truth, with some sort of ability to teach. Instead they frequently insult or manipulate with their words. Reminds me of 2 Cor 4:1-2

    Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; but have <brenounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

  275. “Get educated”.

    Usually this phrase is the calling card of the misinformed, ironically. A red flag.

    A more accurate translation would be “Get indoctrinated”.

  276. One from today. Name redacted:

    “__________ openly stated that he never repented of his sins or asked Jesus Christ to become Lord of his life. Obviously, that would mean he isn’t a Christian. Get educated.”

    My comment: the person who made the above statement is confused as to how someone becomes a Christian. Neither repenting of sins, not asking Jesus Christ to become Lord of one’s life are required to have eternal life.

  277. Jason – That’s because too many of them use Bunyan’s ‘Pilgrim’s Progress’ as their gospel.

  278. 2believe1is2trust – Astounds me too actually. A lot of the loadship/Calvinist churches are using the words ‘Grace’, I suppose they think they have a corner on grace with the five solas, but was that really what was proclaimed way back then? (I know you know it’s a rhetorical question).

    I do agree that they tend to put Him on the same playing field, as you say, but on the other hand, they attribute things to their idea of God that they would never attribute to themselves (i.e. choosing several of their children to go to hell before they were ever born). Like some awful lottery.

  279. We are also taught that to go places, we must follow directions and not make one wrong turn. The journey is not over until we arrive at our destination. No such thing as stepping into a magic wardrobe or clicking your heels three times and saying “no place like home”. Life itself is said to be a journey. The idea that only one turn is to be made, the road is very short, and leads straight to the gate, beyond which is eternal life, is just too simple.

  280. It’s always amazed me all these ‘preachers’ can say they believe in grace and consistently add works to salvation. They proclaim how great the Lord is, and He is, but put Him on the same human playing field so to speak. As humans, the sinners that we are, we always want to see results to help someone. ‘Yes but what have you done for ME?’ mentality. It’s not what we have done for Him but what HE has done for us. Too many take their eyes of Christ and put it on themselves as if we could ever have anything good enough to offer a Holy God! Blasphemy!

  281. Brad, yes, we’ve been taught we have to work or earn for things. Earn respect, earn our wage, work for everything we’ve got — even in those things, we don’t thank God for what we’ve been given (to our shame).

    It’s hard to comprehend free, we’ve been taught ‘nothing in life is free’. Yet He offered His life in our place, and in Christ and Him crucified, we see His price, but yet eternal life is offered ‘without price’ (Rom 5:15-ff, 6:23; Is 55:1-2). The ‘free gift’…

  282. Brad, good points. Our ways are not His ways.

  283. Prov. 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

    As quoted by Keith.

    Look at the world around us. It is all predicated on WORKS.

    “pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps”
    “work hard to succeed in the world”

    Everywhere, people HAVE to work to make ends meet. It is an unquestioned fact.

    God was giving humanity a free ride before the fall. Everything was already provided for them in full. After the fall God declared to Adam in Geneses 3:19:

    In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    In other words, you’re gonna have to WORK for what you need now. It has remained this way ever since.

    The way of FALLEN men is personal works for personal gains.

    This manifests itself in spirituality as religion. Men trying to solve their own problems without God. In the secular world the United Nations is a fantastic example of this.

    WORKS for salvation are the “ways of death”.

    A question to ponder: If the way that seems right to man is NOT works, then why does this entire world system, upheld by men, thrive on it? Surely if it didn’t seem right to men they would have risen up against it by now.

    Works feed men’s pride. If men’s pride isn’t fed their ego is damaged. If their ego is damaged… well… maybe they will start seeing themselves for what they truly are in God’s sight.

  284. Phil, agree completely.

  285. People seem to always be trying to be right with God through their own righteousness, keeping the law. And they always fall short. But the only way is the righteousness of Christ on our behalf. This is the only way we will ever be justified and be right with God. (Romans 3:19-28)

  286. “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death”.
    -Prov. 14:12

  287. Keith, all good points. Religion is always looking for a loophole.

  288. John, the poster in your comment stated, “Of course, we humans are *always* looking for the loophole that allows us (me included, BTW) to be among the “chosen of God” without having to change or that we fatalistically leave the sanctification to God without dying to self”.

    No, unregenerate humans are always looking for the loophole that allows them to be among the “chosen of God” by doing good works or observing life changes without trusting in the finished work of Christ alone for eternal life. This is why all the world’s man-made religions, Calvinism and LS included, require good works and faithfulness to attain or have the assurance of eternal life.

    The problem of self-justification in fallen humanity goes all the way back to Gen. 3:7, where Adam and Eve covered their nakedness and the guilt of their sin using sewn fig leaves. This work, however, done on their own initiative and not at God’s direction, was inadequate. So God had to sacrifice an animal and clothe them with tunics of skin (Gen. 3:21), foreshadowing the once-for-all, final sacrifice which Christ would ultimately make on theirs and all of humanities’ behalf.

    Just as Adam and Eve had to relinquish their clothes of fig leaves in order to put on the animal skins which God provided, an unbeliever must put off his good works, faithfulness, turning from sin, life changes or any intention of those (repent) in order to receive by faith the perfect, once-for-all sacrifice which Christ has already made on his behalf.

  289. And, along the same lines, here is a long excerpt from one that conditions receipt of eternal life on “having to change”:

    The thing about these verses (Ephesians 1:4-6 and Romans 8:28-30) and others like them is that Paul is not emphasizing that believers were “predestined before the foundation of the world…” to be “saved” or, as you put it, “win the cosmic lottery.” Rather, it is a call to all believers to conform to Christ in his holiness and love.

    Of course, we humans are *always* looking for the loophole that allows us (me included, BTW) to be among the “chosen of God” without having to change or that we fatalistically leave the sanctification to God without dying to self.

    The scriptures make very clear that such ones deceive themselves, holding to a form of godliness but lacking its power. God being God and possessing omniscience knows who are the “sheep” and who are the “goats.” But as for us, it remains that we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The problem isn’t that God is judgmental, capricious, and selfish; the problem is that God is good and we are not.

    One last verse from 1 John 5:24: “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” Of course, if I read an “X-acto” Bible, I’m inclined to ignore John’s call to love and holiness in virtually every verse that precedes!

    My comment: sigh. Where do I start? The writer says that the verses he cited are a call to believers to conform to Christ. Then, he suggests that if they don’t, they are not really believers. Why would non-believers be told to conform to Christ? And why would believers be told to conform to Christ if it were automatic, and therefore confirmed they were believers?

    Once a person believes in Jesus as Savior, he is chosen to be justified and ultimatlely glorified. One is not “chosen of God” by his willingness to change.

    The writer of the above comment seems to admit that he can’t know whether or not he has eternal life, so he just keeps working at it.

  290. Here is one I found today:

    Works are the naturally-occurring fruit of a saving faith, not a precondition of it.

    My comment: the above statement is predicated on the false Calvinist tenet of perseverance of the saints – if works WILL be present in one who has eternal life, they MUST be present.

  291. John 6:47 – I think we see in Scripture that works are not automatic, in fact the one thing that seems automatic is our propensity to sin.

    For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Romans 7:19

    It seems completely within the confines of literal context to understand that the exhortations in God’s Word are there because they are necessary. It doesn’t seen that complicated, but then again, Pharisee’s and Sadducee’s have always been selective with Scripture, ignoring what didn’t suit their own thinking and proof texting Scripture into their own accusations.

  292. It reminds me of the pompous king in The Little Prince who, on schedule, commands the sun to set. The sun sets automatically, so what was the point? He gives the lame excuse that no dictator would ever give an unreasonable command. He never heard of Lenin and the confiscation of grain, lol. Just like the Calvinists.

  293. Amen Holly, if works were automatic, then why would the Bible tell us to do good works? It’s like telling someone who can’t walk to not walk.

  294. John, I didn’t know that (about Rom 12:2 being the most searched Scripture), but we went over it in the Bible study a couple weeks ago. I completely agree, it is not automatic, it is an instruction for believers and wouldn’t be necessary if automatic. It is part of practical/ongoing sanctification when we cooperate to get in the Word I believe, (transformed by the renewing of your mind) which I believe comes by our walk with Him, the washing in the water by the Word (Eph 5:26) or the cleansing/sanctification by it (Jn 17:17). Abiding in Him and continuing in His Word.

  295. Spurgeon – sigh… these ‘princes’ are mini-accusers of the brethren.

  296. That made me chuckle, jason.

  297. Wow, I’m going to have to use that analogy when dealing with what I call the ‘changed life crowd’. I couldn’t come up with anything better myself.

  298. Jason, this is an apt analogy that illustrates the point pretty well.

  299. A Mafioso kills 100 people a day. He tries out Grace Confusion Church. He is told that he must live differently than before. For the next month, he kills 10 people per day. His Nouthetic Counselor tells him he is not truly saved. He says, but I used to kill 100 per day, now I only kill ten. How is that for living differently? The counselor takes him to MacArthur, who says, that’s not what I meant. The hitman complains that it is vague and hints that he knows other Mafiosi that could use his money. And he goes back to the priest, since the priest always prescribes how many prayers to Mary must be said.

  300. A repentance of sin for salvation needs to be repented of, but salvation by grace through faith is without repentance by God.

  301. Jason, this reminded me of a Spurgeon quote that also undermines the gospel:

    Another proof of the conquest of a soul for Christ will be found in a real change of life. If the man does not live differently from what he did before, both at home and abroad, his repentance needs to be repented of, and his conversion is a fiction. – 19th Century Preacher Charles Spurgeon

  302. Holly, it is indeed wonderful. I can’t imagine what it must be like to be in Adam’s situation.

    Everyone, this message from Hixson deals with the destructive Transhumanism movement.
    http://www.notbyworks.org/resources/multimedia/details?id=1336361

  303. Jason, isn’t it wonderful really to know that He knows, even when others can’t begin to know our hearts and our struggles and our tears, He knows and cares. We can get such healing and counsel from His Word (Ps 119:25, 28; Pr 22:17-21).

  304. I feel like my mind is not renewed without surveying the wondrous cross. Everything from where I came from to what I should do must be understood in light of God’s grace.

  305. most of the time when preached
    A pulpit person will go from Roman’s 1:16
    and jump right to romans 12:1-2 using guilt as the motivation hence nullifies Grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness. Then go about trying to live the Christian in the energy of the flesh.
    When the Christian Life is lived by our relationship to the Holy Spirit. We are either filled with the Spirit or not filled. There is No third option.
    We are Filled with the Spirit by enjoying our salvation through The Word of God.
    How is your appetite for the Word of God?

  306. Holly, a while back, I heard Tom say that Romans 12:2 is the most searched for Bible verse on the internet:

    Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    I hope that people are understanding that this verse reflects God’s desire for all believers, but that it is not automatic or guaranteed in the lives of believers.

  307. That 2013 comment was in the context of other people’s stuggles with bipolar disorder and depression, things the Bobgans won’t touch. My sister has bipolar. I gave the booklet yesterday to another lady who is a friend of the family, and she also struggles with bipolar. I have Asbergers. The Bible does know of at least one person who did not bring his problems on himself: Job.

    With that, I am once again turned off and will mark and avoid the Bobgans. They overreact.

  308. Excellent comment on James 2 and glorying Johninnc. Well thought out, completely agree, a pleasure to read the Word laid out clearly. Love and appreciate it.

  309. Hobb’s I’ve heard the argument about the ‘good sense to choose God’ or ‘smarter than someone else’. I’ve just never met their straw man before. Honestly, can you say you’ve met a grace believer who thinks it’s about being smarter, or having better sense, etc.? We know it’s not of works, lest any man should boast, and that it was because someone delivered the true message to is, the power of the gospel unto salvation. We all had God made known to us (Rom 1), we all had the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon us regarding sin, righteousness, judgment, unbelief. I know there were people praying for me, other’s labored in the harvest for me. God’s placing us in the best place, time, etc. Satan has minds blinded so people won’t believe the glorious gospel, we have to continue to get that light out there in wisdom in the battle. He has done all the work in salvation (1 Cor 1:30-31).

  310. Jason, I found at least one old comment (from 2013) critical of the Bobgans. Based on the quotes you provided earlier, I would rather not give them an extended platform here.

  311. I have had my own exposure to problem centered counseling with a job coach. It did not relieve job stress but added to it. I was uncomfortable fielding questions that were prying into the details of my life. I did not think questions such as whether I help my mom were appropriate. The coach used the counseling as an opportunity to inspect the apples and oranges that I consumed. In my deceitful heart, I cussed out the job coach. It was all I could do not to let the sin find verbal expression. I was an example of the Bobgans’ observation that men do not like being the counselee. I eventually resigned.

    Nouthetic Counseling is what MacArthur’s Grace Communism Church uses. I heard criticism of Theophostic Counseling from Hanegraaff (who converted to Eastern “Orthodoxy”).

    No one except the Bobgans criticizes counseling, and also no one criticizes the Bobgans.

    Jesus is Wonderful Counselor. He is the one who stores our tears in a bottle.

  312. yes. that was me promoting The psycohearasy website.
    the difficulty is their statement of faith for how a soul receives Christ is ok. But i have not researched all their papers.
    There really isn’t anything out there warning people of the dangers of trying to mix psychology and the Bible. for people who may find themselves caught in the web.
    the bottom line is the Clarity of The Gospel and our perfect standing in Christ before God the throne of Grace.

  313. Jason, agree with your analysis.

  314. Sorry Jason, was trying not to snitch. Honest.

  315. Material from Martin and Deidre Bobgan is sometimes promoted by comments on this site. I have caught them in double-minded fruit inspection before. Yesterday, I caught them teaching Lordship Salvation plain and simple.

    In Stop Counseling, Start Ministering, the Bobgans are exposing the dangers of biblical counseling, including Nouthetic and Theophostic. Their criticism can be summed up by saying that modern counseling, even if Bible based, encourages gossip, evil speaking, the unbridled tongue. Their teaching against self-esteem had turned me off, but their criticism of problem centered counseling held my interest.

    As they give an example of the problem with counseling, the Bobgans on p. 90 said:

    “From what Mary says during the dialogue, there is
    no evidence of repentance for sin or genuine conversion
    (beyond attending church and having some Christian friends
    for two years) or of any sense of her own sinfulness as she
    continues to complain about her husband and berate him.”

    This Mary had just claimed to have had a conversion experience. But what does repentance of sin have to do with salvation? What do the Bobgans say is genuine conversion? A sense of sinfulness has something to do with it but must be followed up with simple trust in the Savior. The Bobgans missed an opportunity to communicate the clear gospel and instead teach Lordship.

    I can’t recommend the Bobgans any more than Spurgeon.

  316. I was probably overthinking, just like the Calvinist. I agree with the discussion that followed.

  317. Hobbs, it sounds like you understand.

  318. Thanks all.

    I think I got a handle on the James 2 thing a while back, i.e. James isn’t saying faith is non-existent, just unproductive.

    Guess I stumbled a bit over the previous comment ‘Faith without works is dead, and it seems to please God to save us through dead faith’.

    But as Keith pointed out, ‘Faith unto salvation from sin’s penalty (receiving eternal life) is dead faith if works ARE involved’.

    Correct me if I still sound muddled!

  319. Hobbs, you said, “If faith without works are dead, is faith unto salvation dead faith since no works can be involved?”

    Faith unto salvation from sin’s penalty (receiving eternal life) is dead faith if works are involved, that is, if one’s assurance of salvation from sin’s penalty is in any way based on good works or the promise of good works. Romans 4:5 states, “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness”.

    God’s desire is for those who have been delivered from sin’s penalty to walk by the Spirit and do good works (Eph. 2:10). As he does so, the believer’s soul is saved, which means that he is delivered from sin’s power and unfruitfulness and fulfills God’s purposes for his life. He will be rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ after the rapture of the Church (1 Cor. 3: 12-14). For a believer who has already been delivered from sin’s penalty, if he sees a fellow believer in need and does nothing to meet that need, failure to do good works does not deliver him from sin’s power since he commits the sin of omission (Jas. 4:17). Faith alone can’t save him from an unproductive life and consequent loss of reward (Jas. 2:17), but he still possesses eternal life.

    In chapter 2, James is talking about faith unto salvation from sin’s power and unfruitfulness with its consequent loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ for one who has already been saved and knows he has been saved from sin’s penalty. By meeting the needs of fellow believers (v. 15 and 16), he demonstrates his faith to others and justifies himself before other people (v. 24), not before God or before himself (Rom. 4:2).

  320. as believer souls we can
    Shipwreck our faith
    Faith can be overthrown.
    We can loose our faith.

    but never never loose our perfect postion in Christ Jesus Justification

  321. Hobbs, we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The quality of our faith is not the issue in whether or not we have eternal life. The object of our faith is the issue. When one believes in Jesus as his Savior, the object of his faith is Jesus. Everyone who has faith in Christ as Savior has the potential to be faithful.

    James uses the term “dead” in relation to faith, to describe non-productive faith. Non-productive faith means that someone is not being faithful. James is appealing to the potential in his readership to be faithful, not to tell them to fruit inspect to determine whether they, or anyone else has eternal life based on works.

    This cannot lead to fruit inspection if we remember two things:

    1. The object of our faith is Christ. If we were to look to our works for evidence of eternal life, that would draw our eye away from our Redeemer to ourselves, which would make assurance of eternal life impossible.

    2. The Bible tells us that we can have assurance of eternal life if we have believed in Jesus as Savior – without any reference to works.

    Ephesians 2:8-9:

    [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Romans 3:26-28:

    [26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    [27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    [28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Romans 4:1-3:

    [1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
    [2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    [3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    The word “glory” in Romans 4:2 has the same meaning as the words “boasting” in Romans 3:27 and “boast” in Ephesians 2:9.

  322. Interesting point: if faith without works are dead, is faith unto salvation dead faith since no works can be involved? Why do I sense this could lead back to fruit inspection.

  323. Agree with the above

  324. The believer who has dead faith, or faith without works (Jas. 2:17), has still been eternally delivered from sin’s penalty. Dead faith cannot deliver a believer from loss of profit, or reward, at the Bema seat (Jas. 2:14).

  325. Jason, it pleases God to give us eternal life as a free gift. Then, it is His will that we live for Him. But, it is not a requirement for eternal life – either up front or at the back end.

  326. And if it is self-serving, that takes the merit out of it. Faith without works is dead, and it seems to please God to save us through dead faith.

  327. Thanks, John.

    Receiving deliverance from condemnation is a self-serving act and is not a saving virtue

    Yes, that sounds like a good explanation to me.

  328. Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    better translation is Faithfulness
    “the fruit of the Spirit”
    Byproduct of abiding in Christ Through the Word of God by The Spirit of God.
    The Spirit of God gets ahold of us through the Word of God desiring to make the Word of God practical in life. Through application of Truth through experience.

    So were does faith come from?
    Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God.
    How’s your appetite for the Word of God.?

  329. Hobbs, following is an excerpt from a quote by J.O. Hosler that addresses your question:

    Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit comes He will convict the world of unbelievers of sin, righteousness and of judgment (Jn.16:8-11). In order to do this, God created unbelievers with a capacity for experiencing conviction of sin, understanding the righteousness of God and understanding the judgment of God. To attribute to unregenerate man a sovereignly God-given capacity to believe is not attributing a saving virtue to the sinner. Receiving deliverance from condemnation is a self-serving act and is not a saving virtue (Rom. 4:5; II Pet. 1:5).

  330. Just out of interest, what is the counter-argument to the notion that if faith is not the gift then it kind of gives us the opportunity to boast that we at least had the good sense to choose God, even in our fallen state, than those who reject Him?

    Calvinism just sounds like a lot of over-thinking. Did my head in just working out that little paragraph!

    ‘Simplicity in Christ’ is the antidote to Calvinism.

  331. That faith in faith is unhealthy is another argument that the Calvinists use. If faith is NOT a gift, then our faith is in faith. In order for faith to be in God, it has to be of God. But would the vain fools know that gifted faith leads to fruit inspection, and fruit inspection to faith in faith?

    Why is it that we and Calvinists consistently derive the opposite conclusions from common premises? Faith is not in faith. The heart is deceitful. Human reasoning is corrupted. Faith is not a work. And even salvation is all of grace. And yet we cannot agree about the ordo salutis. They cannot see that works to prove salvation and works to keep it are effectively the same thing.

    They likewise cannot see that if God instructs us to believe and rejects us because he did not give our belief to us, then God offered us a fish and gave us a snake. Like Islam and hyperdisp, they make God a schemer and a deceiver.

  332. My prayers for all who read Ron’s booklet and hear and believe the gospel of grace alone.
    Brad, good point about people who make faith the object of their salvation rather than Christ Crucified for their salvation. To me this is the key issue and problem with Calvinism, LS, and any other form of legalism. No matter how they they try to present it, faith comes out as a work- faith plus works. And it’s not just faith; they just keep raising the bar of what that faith must produce in a persons life.
    Saving faith is no more than simply accepting the finished work of Christ at Calvary. When one does he receives full pardon and eternal life. Again, Christ has done all the work, all we do is accept it for our salvation.

  333. Holly, that distinction between salvation and discipleship is the most crucial isn’t it. Wish I had seen it when I was having my panic stations in the past.

    Found one of Jack’s old replies to someone on here:


    Fact:
    Salvation — we have a CHOICE to believe in Jesus Christ!
    Service, discipleship — we have a CHOICE to serve Him, it is NEITHER automatic nor mandatory. THAT is God’s Grace.

    The Bible is replete with admonitions for believers to “walk in the Spirit” (in obedience to Him), because it is not always easy nor desirable. The new nature says “Yes, serve Him” and the old nature says “No, I don’t want to, I have no desire.” These thoughts and decisions neither help nor hurt their salvation.

    Salvation is FREE —

    Service, discipleship can be costly — but voluntary and has absolutely NOTHING to do with saving or keeping one saved.

    I think that’s a wonderful bit of writing in truth and I guess it’s what I’m choosing to believe is correct at this point in my life.

    Yes you’re right I tend to have always looked at life and spiritual issues via the lens of my friend’s thinking. I should do the berean thing of course. Can’t say I honestly am/do much. Guess I’m learning my lesson the hard way. But I am getting to know scripture much better than I ever did though via the comments on here and from Pastor Arnold, so that’s something.

  334. So true Holly. If God gives people faith as calvinists believe, then why did he give some people in the bible a weak faith? Seems pretty self-sabotaging. God would have only ever given someone a perfect faith, if he did give it.

    I have noticed a lot of people like to make faith the object of their salvation, rather than Christ crucified. Faith only saves when it’s object is Jesus Christ.

    When I click the “Post Comment” button below, I TRUST that this comment will be submitted to this website. That is the same type of trust that saves a person. What God promised, He is also able to carry out.

  335. When I was a Calvinist, I was exposed to every order of salvation imaginable. I could not tell whether regeneration came first and it did not matter. It is now clear to me that a Calvinist thinks like a Sith.

  336. Jason, good news about your dad and Ron Shea’s booklet. Hope he’ll just desire more of the pure Word. When we get into the strong meat of His Word, our senses are better exercised to discern between good and evil. I notice that Arminians and Calvinists fight using cardboard and tinfoil swords. They don’t really use the Word of God, but men’s words who have arranged proof texts with shiny words to fight with. They honestly don’t recognize other Scriptures. Ask a Calvinist to share the gospel with you, it generally won’t happen. I have had it happen, and I was shocked, but I did tell him he left out the part where the Holy Spirit pre-regenerated the person to believe it. And how Jesus asked so many in the crowds to believe what He was saying and we know not all did, so why would He do that? Why would He call for them to ‘have faith’. Why would He commend someone for ‘great faith’ (if a gift from God then Jesus was giving the glory to the wrong person). Why would He chasten His disciples for being of little faith? Then again, He’s saying that God has done something that needs chastened? Assuming faith is the gift.

  337. Hobbs – we none measure up on loving Him the way we should. But part of our walk is the fact that we still have this sinful flesh, that we have to put off. Daily armor is really important in that.

    I think it’s o.k. to get counsel from others, trouble is, are we testing it according to what Scripture says. When someone tells you something, you shouldn’t be afraid at all to ask them where it says something in His Word. Ask them to send you some Scriptures. Look it up in context.

    The women’s Bible study I’ve been teaching for the past couple of weeks has been on positional sanctification vs. practical/progressive or ongoing sanctification. I realize that this study could be an awful long one if I let it, but we’re just looking at Scripture and asking, ‘is this already addressing believers?’ Is this addressing eternal life, or discipleship? Saved from what? Eternal death or consequences?

    Why did Jesus pray that His already clean (11) disciples would be sanctified with God’s Word? (Jn 17:17,19) Why did Jesus tell believers in chapter 8 (31-32) to continue in His Word to be disciples indeed?

    Basically the study I used to show others how to ask themselves, ‘does this speak to me being partially cleansed/washed, as in growing in maturity/discipleship? Or does this speak to the one time event of sanctification by His one sacrifice? (Heb 10:10,14; Rev 1:5-6). It helps clear up some of the difficult passages when you ask, ‘is this something a believer SHOULD do or something a nonbeliever HAS to do in order to be given the free gift of eternal life?’

    By the way when you ask someone to show you or answer something are they patiently laying it out with His Word? I usually ask if it gave me something to sow, or some food to eat (man does not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord). Does it settle on you like the Word says here? Does it accomplish the same thing? And no one should make you feel badly for asking someone to show you patiently in His Word, they should commend you (Acts 17:11).

    For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven,
    and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth,
    and maketh it bring forth and bud,
    that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
    so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
    it shall not return unto me void,
    but it shall accomplish that which I please,
    and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Is 55:10-11

  338. Jason, I am happy that you shared the booklet with your father and I will pray for him.

  339. Today I had an opportunity to give a copy of Shea’s booklet to both my mom and my dad. My dad’s case was interesting. Little did I know that my dad was wrestling with fruit inspection and had come to the conclusion that it was not of God.

    We were talking politics over Chinese food, and he mentioned the fact that Woodrow Wilson was a racist. I made mention of his religion. And that segued into the subject of the carnal Christian. I said that according to reformed theology’s definition of a Christian, that man was not truly saved. My dad said that was wrong and that Christians can do horrible things.

    So my dad no longer believes in POS. I told him about the MacArthur study bibles and that Calvinism is Augustinianism. Those facts were new to him. He is still hung up on election.

    When I showed him the booklet, he read the first two pages and knew it was on point. We reached a point of mutual understanding that I had not experienced in a long time.

  340. When I was a Calvinist, I leaned towards a TUIP view, with a free will paradox thrown in. I did not like the limited atonement at all. I stayed away from the doctrinaire folks. Hanegraaff had me convinced this was not an essential issue. I considered myself Protestant. I believed Luther was saved. I’m not sure now.

    I have heard that asking for salvation insults God. Yet the thief on the cross asked to be remembered and Jesus did not refuse him but gave him immediate assurance. How does asking for eternal life insult God, yet asking for faith is not equally insulting? Within that system, is not receiving the gift something God has decreed?

    The fine argument that once took me captive was that free will is a philosophy of man. Luther said so. He even attributed it to Aristotle. So much for that.

    As for praying for the dead, it could be rationalized as well. Or it could be argued that we should not pray at all.

  341. Jason, not even the Calvinists themselves can un-tie the Gordian Knots their system imposes on scripture. I’m still working on figuring out how they can be so sure that their system is correct and it can only be understood by the elect after regeneration (citing 1Cor 2:14) and they say they understand it yet are not sure if they are regenerated or of the elect because they have some preserving to do. I’m sure you’ve had the experience of after walking through step by step how they say the system works and they will agree as you walk through it and then when you make the logical conclusion they tell you “you just don’t understand”. I’m sure that asking for faith vs asking Jesus into one’s heart is just one of those things that they like to say we don’t understand.

    I was in conversation with a couple of them weeks ago and they totally affirmed that God has decreed (past tense) ALL that will come about. Then one said they pray to God that He will open my eyes to the truth. I asked if she was in the habit of praying for the physically dead. She said she was not. I agreed it is not a biblical practice and that the fate of the physically dead is sealed. I then asked if the decision that I would remain spiritually dead or be regenerated was made in eternity past (fate sealed) what good her prayer today would do. I asked “isn’t it a little man centered to think you have influence with God Who has already decided if I would be allowed to believe?” Turns out I just don’t understand the system…a sure sign of rebellion against God they tell me.

  342. Good point. I have never heard of Sproul et al criticizing the heart faith. They are invariably the ones who promote it.

    As for the asking, what about asking for the gift of faith? Since it is a heart faith, isn’t asking for it the same thing? Figure that one out.

  343. I am not a proponent of asking Jesus into one’s heart—this is not equal to believing in Him for eternal life. But for JMac, Sproul and others of the Calvinist stripe their opposition does not concern the heart but rather the asking. In their scheme the heart is vital but no one is capable of asking God to do something that He had not decreed that He would do in eternity past. Their scheme is heart centered. Asking is man centered. And that’s what they oppose. That’s really the only thing separating Calvinist LS from Arminian LS. They have the same premise; they make different deductions but come to the same conclusion i.e. that if one is truly saved they will persevere.

  344. There is a comment from two months ago on a Hank Lindstrom video, rationalizing the heretical teaching of asking Jesus into one’s heart. The defenses were numbered, systematic and pathetic. One of them was that the Bible consistently addresses the heart. This is true. But the Word addresses the heart to expose its unknowably deceitful wickedness and to exhort believers to walk according to the new heart that they were given. And not one of these addresses has anything to do with asking Jesus to enter. In none of the defenses given is the Biblical lack of distinction between the organs ever considered. The commenter hurls loaded language at Lindstrom, insinuating that he lacks understanding and implying that he never truly trusted.

    Even MacArthur does not go to this length to defend such language, because he knows that it confuses, and he wants to be clear that he believes in works to prove salvation. Sproul opposes it. I have heard people who are LS call it easy-believism. Such mumbo jumbo has been a disservice to both sides of the LS controversy and extremely useful to Satan.

  345. Hobbs, it is God’s desire that we grow in grace and He desires to teach us.

    God chastens (trains, provides instruction to) all believers, not just disobedient or rebellious believers.

    People respond to this discipline in a number of ways, some of which are appropriate and some of which are not. The most disciplined Christians are the ones who respond most appropriately to discipline.

  346. John, thanks for helpful comments.

    ‘We receive Christ’s imputed perfection when we believe in Him as Savior. Once we are saved, we do “measure up” in God’s eyes.’

    That being for salvation, but God still see’s our fleshly walk and may correct it via chastening etc. to help us ‘measure-up’ in discipleship terms, is that about right?

    It’s a relief to hear that not all saved believers necessarily love Christ. That would account for a lot.

    The bible says to believe in Christ to be saved, not love Christ to be saved. One tends to assume (or has been taught) that they are synonymous.

  347. Hobbs, the Bible does have standards – God’s standard is perfection. We receive Christ’s imputed perfection when we believe in Him as Savior. Once we are saved, we do “measure up” in God’s eyes.

    Incidentally, your friend said: …and that is why we love our Saviour

    My comment: Loving our Savior is not the same thing as believing in Him as Savior. Not all Christians love Jesus, and those that do, don’t all love Him all of the time.

  348. I had a friend once say to me something to the effect of ‘I know it sucks but the Bible is all about standards’. I immediately had that cold feeling of dread as he said it because I took it as ‘I gotta measure up, or else hell’ (this was before I got clear again on the Gospel).

    I’m still not measuring up much as far as I can see, so Grace is all I got!

    I’ve always been in awe of this friend, he genuinely seems to aim for very high standards in how he lives and treats people. Or at least that’s how I’ve always seen him.

    Ironically, he’s the reason I continued reading expreacherman. I sent him Jack’s ‘What is Grace’ article when I first read it back in 2015, wanting reassurance it was sound, and he came back that he agreed with it 100% and that Jack was absolutely right to speak out against Lordship ‘Salvation’. He concluded his email to me with ‘and that is why we love our Saviour’ i.e. because He freely died for us; no strings attached.

    Only problem is, I’m not sure if I’m really thinking for myself. It took someone else to verify the article and give me confidence with it. If he hadn’t approved it I would probably have just shrugged and gone back to wandering the internet again like a lost soul in torment.

    Lost ‘saved’ soul, that is.

    Christ paid for my sins!

  349. Jason, sounds like one to mark and avoid.

  350. *Five Marks

    It was much of the usual LS drivel. Cannot live in sin, the law applies, etc. A lot of but’s.

    One line that I haven’t thought of is that God calls me to a high standard. Without saying it, he has already implied that it is a standard that I must measure up to, or else hell. This is the problem with books like Jesus Calling. Calling to what? How about grace, eternal life, and a promise that only God shall perform? Usually, it is LS.

    Some other strange notions: the blood of Jesus transforms (infusion), demons escort the lost (with wrong definition of the lost) into hell.

  351. Jason, that’s a higher ratio of dislikes than I would have anticipated.

  352. A YouTube video “False Marks of the False-Grace Movement” has 600 likes and 300 dislikes. Since this is yet another lordship video, the 300 dislikes are good news. Even flat earth videos have had like to dislike ratios as high as 10 to 1. This video takes quite awhile to get to the point. But the title itself tells me they have a low view of Biblical grace.

  353. Jason and John, one person who used to visit here, a young man, was waylaid in private by this older woman on FB. She would put all these wonderful Pictures on her pages, with Bible verses with them, and seemed to be the model of grace. But behind the scenes she told a different story, preying on the week, and gossiping with those who were prone in that area, still those things seem to eventually come to the light.

    The young man who has now become a Demas, came to me about this woman using words like ‘real Christians’ or ‘true believers’ will or will not do certain things. I didn’t know at the time who the woman was, but I did tell her (as I tell all), tell this person to bring their doctrine to the light, if they really believe it to be truth, they should be proclaiming it out in front of all.

    These people sneak in, and they look for those who might hear them. They have lots of conversations in private, feeling people out and trying to draw away disciples. We know they can come from among us. That conversation you posted is just so much like whatever their do or don’t list is that proves they are believers. They forget their spouse, their family, their neighbor, their roommate KNOWS the type of person they really are. 🙂 More than that the Lord does, and if they have not believed that they are His apart from any works they have or will do, then they have not believed, and they are not the ‘actual Christians’ or the ‘true believers’ sadly for them.

  354. Jason, agree. Faith in Christ alone is how one receives eternal life.

    The writer of the editorial does not seem to understand that.

  355. Whatever that group is, it would have been appropriate rather to ask if they had a correct soteriology. Unfortunately, having a repugnant political view is possible for a true Christian, like every other conceivable failing.

  356. Holly, the part leading up to the quote that I gave said that anyone who held a particularly repugnant political view (I won’t list the particulars) was not a Christian.

    The exact quote:

    Good Christians do not believe this. At least not any more. The people who believe this are masquerading as Christians. Actual Christians strive to love our God with all our heart soul and mind and love our neighbors as ourselves…

    My comment: Fruit inspection 101. How could a “real Christian” have believed something 200 years ago and been a “real Christian,” but if they believe it these days they are “masquerading”?

    With LS, where there’s smoke, there’s fire.

  357. How can I put this in just a very honest way?

    I didn’t at all strive to do that, I at times tried to please Him by doing good, but it was more because it’s what I was taught vs. doing it out of love for Him. I didn’t know how to love someone I didn’t know. As I began to know Him more through His Word, seeing His wonderful character, His great love for me, understanding to some degree the unfathomable thought of a God storing my tears, counting the hairs on my head, having precious thoughts towards me?… Those things were just the barely scratching the surface of our great God, and the pitiful amount of love I can show Him is unworthy, but it’s honest, more honest than I ever understood it would be concerning loving Him. It’s so much a part of the good news. Who He is. What He has done for us in such great love.

    Striving? Yes we should try to express our love for Him but it only comes because we first were and continually are loved by Him. I hope I worded that well, been kind of busy in paperwork/taxes, and trying to take a break from time to time in order not to be overwhelmed. Anyways, may the Lord bless all who come to read here, to take heed to the truth they will find, and to confirm it with His Word.

  358. The following line came from an editorial today in “The State” (Columbia, SC) newspaper:

    Actual Christians strive to love our God with all our heart soul and mind and to love our neighbors as ourselves…

    My comment: According to this statement, no one could have assurance of eternal life unless he was consistently striving to love God with all of his heart soul and mind and to love his neighbor as himself.

    Christians SHOULD do these things. But, actual Christians are those who have believed in Christ alone as their Savior.

  359. Their were several OT blessings (think of the land that is still left to be fulfilled), but the blessing of eternal life (the just live by faith) has always been the same. Discipleship has been the same. People being cut off because of unbelief; the same. The difference we have that is wonderful is the taking away of sin, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

    We can quench the Holy Spirit, we can grieve Him (awful) but He will never leave us.

  360. Like, what is a soul? No math or physics will ever explain that.

  361. Keep in mind theese are physics professors we are talking about. The gentleman are so mathematically smart yet the simplest things can baffle them to no end.
    They try to explain away all interconnected details of what they are thinking and end up loosing what they were trying to say.

    I know there was a Time on expreacherman.com the moderators would not allow outside links. Im now seeing the wisdom in that.

  362. Jason, excellent point.

  363. I notice that at the end of Revelation, it gets focused on believing, referred to as drinking freely of the water of life. I take that as a clear biblical statement that the gospel has not changed through the ages. The tribulation saints aren’t drinking any less freely than we church agers.

    Robert Herman has books, books, books about math, and poorly written.

  364. The Old Testament Blessings was by Obedience.
    The New Testament Or dispensation of Grace In Christ We Have been blessed with all Spirtual Blessings.
    Wether we allow the Holy Spirit to find fulfillment in the lives we now live yeilded to Holy Spirit through the Word of God .
    They are ours wether we enjoy them or not they are still yours.

  365. Agree with your points, John.

    Technically, they were not Jews until Jacob. I think it is likely that Naaman, Nebuchadnezzar, and the Ninevites who heeded Jonah were saved.

    Whitcomb may have been careless. I found his ideas about the tribulation interesting, but he got hairy at points.

    I can tolerate a wide range of views about temporal punishment, but salvation had better be left as is.

    If millennial sacrifices cover temporal punishment, but godly living suffices during the church age, that is a contradiction. The symbolic view does not have that problem.

    It is sad to see people going astray.

  366. Jason, I think Adam is in heaven, and I don’t recall his having converted to Judaism.

    Regarding the purpose of millennial sacrifices, I was of the belief that they were meant to be more symbolic.

    Regarding averting temporal judgment during the church age, you will likely get a wide range of views and opinions.

    The Bible says that, as believers, we reap what we sow. So, if we sow to the flesh, we reap corruption. That could include damages to relationships and health, loss of life and liberty, and so on during this lifetime, as well as loss of rewards in eternity.

    Last, following the teachings of the Apostles is not a requirement for eternal life.

  367. I am puzzled by a few people that have been associated with Radtke by the GraceBibleStudies.org website. Radtke is well known by some of us, and I have no problem with him, in spite of the lack of a statement of faith. He solidly stands for eternal security.

    Charles Clough and John Whitcomb are linked on the site.

    Whitcomb has his own website, and his SoF is brief on salvation but long on Christian living. He teaches footwashing as a sacrament, and I find that troubing. In one of his messages, he mentioned being sorry for sins. Most puzzling, he is dogmatic about restored temple sacrifices. He is convinced that they are necessary to cover sins and avert temporal punishments. If so, what averts temporal punishments during the Church Age? He says that pre-cross and during the trib, one has to become a Jew in order to be saved. This sounds hyperdispensational. If one could believe God without becoming a Jew, belief would still be counted. Becoming a Jew required making a commitment to obey the law.

    Clough’s SoF, on his Bible Framework website, is vague on salvation. What Jesus did for us gets buried in a paragraph about Israel. Eternal life is not mentioned.

    Clough has mentioned the mathematician Robert Hermann. I looked him up, and I find his views controversial. His gospel presentation is full of his math references. Guess what? The math makes it extremely complicated. He literally thinks he can model God’s attributes, which I know is not possible. Hermann makes following the teaching of the Apostles a requirement for salvation, and that tells me he is LS.

  368. yeah confusing jason
    it seems like mystical legalism self inflicting righteousness setting on the high powered blend all with dull cutting blades.
    its just same ole works for and because of salvation.

  369. I think I figured it out now. It was difficult reading, lol.

  370. Jason, yes, very confusing.

    Perhaps it was a reference to Genesis 3:4-5.

  371. “…in who He is and in the words He speaks that first separated us from Him”

    That is really confusing. I thought it was our sins that separated us from him. The LS is heresy already, but this is icing on the cake.

  372. One from today:

    But, that’s why Jesus came: to offer us the chance to become who we were always meant to be: His pure and Holy child who loves God and one another with all that we are. It was not having faith in God: in who He is and in the words He speaks that first separated us from Him, only by having faith can we be restored to Him and receive the new heart and new nature that Christ died to make possible for us to have by repenting of our sins and asking Him to forgive and change us.

    My comment: repenting of sins is not a requirement to receive eternal life. Asking Him to forgive us is not a requirement to receiving eternal life. Asking Him to change us is not a requirement for receiving eternal life.

    This is an insidious false gospel message that has works as its focus. The errant reasoning is that if we “ask Jesus to change us,” and we don’t change, we weren’t sincere when we asked Him. No change, no salvation. So, our faith, in this errant view, is in Jesus’ promise to change our lives, rather than in His promise to give us eternal life.

  373. Jason, good question.

  374. Why aren’t they called the Works Coalition?

  375. when a soul Trust Christ Jesus as Their personal saviour all things Spiritual have been given unto them along with seal of Holy Spirit.
    Those “all spiritual things” are available to the believer wether they appropriate them or not
    live in the light of them walk in them or not.
    enjoy them or not.
    They belong to the believer no matter what.
    The Christian Life is lived by our relationship to Holly Spirit.
    it does not matter if a soul has not lived for Christ for 6 months or 6 years they can enjoy their spiritual blessings the same as one who is in fellowship by simply admiting (confessing that sin) they have not been.
    Spirituality and Growth are to remain separate in our thinking.
    when a soul thinks if i pray more go to church more, witness more, God will bless me.. That is solid works and the believer will never enjoy the Lord That way. Just like the unbeliever will not Trust Christ but must work their way to Heaven.

    ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    hath given unto us all things

    2 peter 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
    3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
    4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

  376. In my mind, I somehow had the Gospel Coalition confused with the Clear Gospel.

  377. I found the following on the website of a false gospel group known as “The Gospel Coalition”:

    Paul’s words show that there are practices and lifestyles that, if left unrepented of, can prevent someone from inheriting – that is, having a place in – the kingdom of God. To live as a Christian is to accept God’s authority over our own…

    Having said that, it is possible to sin in all kinds of ways in ignorance, rather than willfullly and knowingly. A new Christian might not know that they are called to honor their parents, or that lust is sinful. The key is that when they read in scripture that obedience to God means changing in these areas, they will work to do so.

    My comment: Nonsense. Turning from known sin is not a requirement for receiving eternal life. Nor does ignorance absolve anyone of sin. This false theology teaches that Christ’s atonement covers sins, but only those that are not willful or intentional. And, while they “work to do so,” how is this not works? What if someone realizes something is wrong and doesn’t “work to do so?”

    This is works for salvation theology, plain and simple.

  378. And many of them fall into GES, hyperdisp, KJVO, conspiracy theories. I have noticed dreiher2 videos lately, and he is GES.

  379. along with what Johninc said for myself personally unless youtube a preacher/teacher has a website doctrinal statement, a clear gospel presentation. Elder board and congregation i dont bother listening. for me if not have the above they all go wondering off into strange doctrines has been my experience…

  380. John, welcome and thanks for your question.

    I didn’t watch the video. I get lots of requests to listen to sermons and watch videos, and I generally cannot accommodate them. I also do not want to expose our readers to random material.

    If the video is a gospel video, and what the video teaches passes the following three tests, it might be true. Otherwise, no chance:

    1. Is it consistent with eternal life by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone?
    2. Is it consistent with eternal security?
    3. Is it consistent with assurance of eternal life, based on God’s promises alone (i.e., it is not internally-focused on changes in attitudes, behavior, etc.)?

  381. Any thoughts on some of the comments on this video? Any answers?

    (link removed by administrator)

  382. RAS – thank you, I think I needed to learn patience more than most. Still do. Thank you for your prayers for my family, you and everyone else who prays, it is very appreciated always.

    The lady that you are dealing with sadly doesn’t realize that although they claim they follow no man, they have learned their system of theology only from men and basically their family tree starts with men like Augustine.

    They don’t find their system in His Word as much as they claim they do.

    Again, I’m thankful for the fellowship of the saints here, it’s becoming mighty hard to find fellowship.

  383. More about the Calvinist movie…I hear you can’t get tickets even if you wanted to because they will be handed out randomly to people chosen before filming began. You might even have a ticket now but you may never know. Oh, and there is limited seating.

  384. Jason, oddly I’m seeing that (on the free pass) some, although I agree with RAS, I don’t think it’s going to happen too often. I think the truth is simply that error is going to find commonality with error vs. truth. Both of them are in error and we are not somewhere in the middle (as some claim).

  385. Holly, I am sure you understand more about patience than I. You and your son remain in my prayers. Jason, a couple of the people I am referring to will not claim the title Calvinist or even 5 pointer but are constantly talking about the “doctrines of grace”. The lady who accused me of being my own god constantly says she follows no man but she copies and pastes quotes from Pink, Gil, Spurgeon and others more often then she quotes scripture. And when she does quote scripture it more often than not says something different than what she thinks it does. I don’t think they would give a real Arminian a free pass all though I know what you mean…Calvinist “scholars” often call Arminians confused brethren.

  386. But these Calvinists seem happy to tell their Arminian brethren that Calvinism is not an essential. So why don’t we get a pass?

  387. Here’s what the majority of them think regarding whether you watch the movie or not. If you do not, you are likely reprobate. I’ve been told that because I don’t believe the tenets of TULIP are biblical, then I am a reprobate. This is basically what they do think, since as Spurgeon said (pp), Calvinism IS the gospel.

  388. Ras, why did I laugh with the patience comment?… I get it.

    I was raised in a home where my dad was a gentleman, and showed all of us how to be treated. He spoke up if someone spoke coarsely in front of us, opened the door for all of us girls on the way anywhere. He pulled out our chairs. My point is, that the secular world isn’t as vicious as the religious Pharisees are. But, take heart, there are onlookers, and these people aren’t discrediting you, they are discrediting themselves in the eyes of those who want to see, want to hear. You’ll not hear about all of it, but trust me, people watch to see if someone answers patiently, gently, using the Word aptly. And when our opponent is calling us names, they show their lack of wisdom or even godliness. They are mini-accusers of the brethren.

    Sometimes I tell them the job is already taken so perhaps they might use the Word instead of name calling? 🙂

    2 Cor 11:12-15, Keep it up!

  389. “I suppose by their logic, if I miss it, then it was God’s will. And, if I see it, then it was God’s will.”
    But if we be corpses floating down a river” according to theor system of thought logic cant know God’s will unless God infuses his will to see movie or not.
    Then there’s the problem with movies electricity and water. How is that going to work?

  390. I think they were predestined to give those thumbs up.

    And, I suppose by their logic, if I miss it, then it was God’s will. And, if I see it, then it was God’s will.

  391. I remember hearing about the Calvinist movie. I think I heard that Sproul gave it 5 thumbs up, Piper gave it 6 and Washer said if you miss this movie you better check yourself. Could be just rumors though.

  392. I recently got accused of being my own god and thinking I saved myself for being a “free willer”. What really set them off was when I pointed out that Reformed soteriology was no different than that of the RCC. It started with a 5 pointer appealing to Phil 1:6 to show that a “true” believer will not fall away. When I put the verse in context i.e. that Philippians was a “thank you” letter and the good work started was support of Paul’s ministry the name calling began. I pointed out that justification is not a work that is started to be completed later and if they believe it is then they really do have the same soteriology as the RCC. The floodgates of abuse opened wide (out right lies, misquotes, was even called an Arminian -Jesuit, anything to discredit me in the eyes of onlookers) along with the usual long list of proof text many like to copy and paste without reading a few verses in front and back of to get context. One thing I noticed, although I was already aware of, is that many think faith is a righteous act and not as scripture says counted as righteousness. This is why the hate free will (I prefer the term volition but…) and they think faith is the gift. Romans 5:18 says the free gift came upon all men just as the judgment came upon all men (all is the same group). If the gift is faith then all men would have faith but the gift is by grace salvation which is through faith (as it is in Eph). Faith is man’s responsibility it is not gifted. Because they believe that faith is a righteous act they think “free will” is self righteousness and therefore blasphemous. To be honest I’ve just about had it trying to reach some of these people even onlookers. I need more patience but don’t really look forward to getting it. Can we go home yet?

  393. Keith, someone posted a video (which I haven’t finished watching) but the beginning of the video has Sproul saying free will is blasphemy. These puffed up men…

  394. What most of those mean that contrast heart faith with head faith, or use the term mental assent, is basically a James 2 sort of faith. Keep in mind they of course read James 2 to say these people did not possess eternal life because they didn’t behave as if they had. They of course use the demons argument, of course they believe, they know Him. Like you said John, salvation isn’t offered to them.

    Those in James who were useless to others who needed help was a faith without any works. One that doesn’t demonstrate to others that they are walking worthy, not to be saved, or stay saved, but because it’s what we should do because of the great love He has shown for us.

    Many have difficulty with that passage because of the word justified. Justified unto what? Justified to whom? That helps a lot, because we can see they were already called brethren, brother, sister, beloved… they were also called other things that weren’t good names regarding their behavior. It didn’t mean they only had ‘mental assent’ but that they were hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. They needed chastised and reminded of what they should do and of what Jesus had done for them. These believers fought and warred, and lusted, and KILLED, and yet James said the SPIRIT dwelled in them (James 4)… Calvinists and load-ship teachers will try to say the opposite, even though the Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit states it in each and every chapter of James. I pray people start asking questions of the Lord as they read the Word. Who is this speaking to Lord? What is this about? What kind of salvation? (and so forth) and look at context…

  395. Keith, very good. It took me a minute, but very good.

  396. The thing that concerns me is that those who do not watch the movie to its conclusion will tragically deceive themselves into thinking that they’re watching the movie when they really aren’t.

  397. And you must make Hollywood your lord, by being a hardcore movie fan. You must commit yourelf to at least 2 movies per year, and that includes the future Narnia movies and the Left Behinds. And you must promote movies to all your friends and relatives. And you must worship Kirk Cameron as one of your heroes. OK, enough silliness.

    One of these days, they might make a movie about persecution. I wouldn’t be surprised.

  398. If you don’t persevere to the end of the movie, you never had a real ticket to it.
    Also popcorn WILL accompany a genuine ticket, and if not present then there was no real movie ticket to begin with, only a spurious one.

  399. Keith, I hadn’t heard of it, but I’m not surprised.

  400. Has anyone seen the preview for the new Calvinist movie? It seems that RT has become so popular that its adherents are using the arts to push the idea that man does not have the free will to choose to believe the gospel, but yet he apparently can choose to persevere in faithfulness and good works, thereby “proving” that God chose him to be one of the elect.

  401. Hyperdisp vs GES

    Hyperdisp = Paul only
    GES = John only

    This Robert Breaker guy says he is not a hyperdisp but he goes Paul only, with a hell threat. If you reject Paul, you reject Jesus. If you follow Jesus, you follow him into hell. He plays the You Are Damned game real hard. What a mess.

    The hyperdisp god abrogates his law and deceives his followers. That is a god I don’t trust.

    And why stop with Paul? One could draw another arbitrary line at 630 AD. The law is back on. The Church Age ended with the Migration. We are in the Mosque Age, lol. There are many ways to go nuts with this.

    The Biblical God fulfills his law and rewards his followers. That is the God I trust.

    Bob Breaker: I’m of Paul
    Bob Wilkin: I’m of John

    Paul: both Bobs are carnal

  402. I saw one of those “lockup” shows on TV last night. There was a man who was a jail guard who read a statement at the formal sentencing hearing of the man who had been convicted of murdering his brother. The convicted murderer was receiving a death sentence.

    The guard, in his statement, said that he and his family were going to have a big party on the day the sentence was carried out, knowing that the murderer was now in hell.

    My comment: It does not sound like the guard understands God’s plan of salvation. If not, I pray that he hears and understands the gospel so that he might believe and be saved.

  403. Jason, the Bible tells us that Satan tries to take away the seed that has been planted. False gospel substitutes and add-ons are one of the ways that he goes about that.

    Understanding and believing that eternal life is a gift, without cost or obligation to the recipient, is essential.

  404. I can’t help having thoughts about the SoF of my own.

    The gospel of John indeed often emphasizes belief and eternal life without explicit reference to other content. I think the reason is that many deceived souls already know the unmentioned content, and what they need to hear is that eternal life is free. A Roman Catholic already knows about the cross, as high Christology has been drummed into him. Give him John 3:16, and you have given him the gospel. Many know 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 but few understand that John 3:16 means exactly what it says, with no qualifications.

    Yet the Gospel of John as a whole includes the account of Jesus’ prayer, passion, crucifixion, and resurrection. It is a Gospel, after all. It includes the high Christology of John 1 as well.

    It is a promise, but not promise-only.

    Even if you give the complete gospel to an unreached soul, the one thing most likely to be misunderstood is that Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe him for it. It is the first area in which a wolf will confuse them. It is where I got confused.

  405. From GES Sof

    “Assurance is of the essence of believing in Jesus for everlasting life. That is, as long as a person believes in Jesus for everlasting life, he knows he has everlasting life (John 5:24 ; 6:35 , 47; 11:27 ; 1 John 5:9-13).”

    Now the above Statement under assurance from GES Statement of Faith. How could a believer soul know that they have eternal life as a present permanent possession sealed by Holy Spirit?
    They can’t know because it is based on their continual believing.
    We have eternal life because God’s Word says so and God cannot lie and his character can never be compromised.

    So what about a believer soul who ends up in a motorcycle accident with a head injury and doesn’t know which end is up. So according to GES sof they dont have eternal life because they do not know ?.

    see how much confusion this creates?
    head faith heart faith confusion.
    God is not the author of confusion
    God wants us to know.

    Assurance of salvation our perfect postion in Christ Jesus before the throne of grace never changes. That is were Growth comes from.
    Growth comes from appropriateing the gift of righteousness.
    That provision belongs to the believer who placed faith in Christ Jesus finished work whether they appropriate it or not their postion remains secure even though our relationship to our postion may change at anytime we are either Spiritual or Carnal the postion remains secure.

    Romans chapter 5

  406. Curtis

    You discovered a new species of wolf. Lupus decruciatus. The crossless bully.

  407. What is this Bob Wilkin week?
    someone following me around.?
    I was in a church were the gospel was not given but pulpit hammered away at sound doctrine and false teachers. yet no gospel given.
    How can i know sound doctrine without the Gospel?
    How can I know the Gospel without sound doctrine?
    Then was said to me I need to read a Bob Wilkin book?
    What the world does Bob Wilkin have to do with my eternal destiny?
    A Bob Wilkin book?
    Why should God let me into Heaven?
    because I read a Bob Wilkin book?
    How is the Christian life lived ?
    By reading a Bob Wilkin book?

    Then another church talking to pastor on phone after failure to clearly tell me how a soul is saved. said he is a Bob Wilkin follower and old school DTS calvanist.
    Found it interesting how gospel of grace tracts and reformed theology books were on same table.
    How does that work?

  408. Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

    How did you receive Christ Jesus?
    How do you Walk (live) the Christian life?

    Spirituality is in our thinking
    Spirituality and Growth separate

    Heb 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 

    Application of The Truth of God’s Word the promises of God appropriated to experiences of Life produces exceptable works.
    everything in the Christian life that counts for eternity is provided and produced for us by the Holy Spirit..
    We Receive Eternal Life by believing what Jesus did was for you.
    The Christian Life is lived by our response to the Holy Spirit through the Word of God through the abundance of the Grace of God.

    The Holy Spirit desires us to Yeild. The Holy Spirit gets ahold of us in our thinking through the Word of God. We need only yeild collapse enjoy the Lord Jesus through His Word.
    The Written Word of God.
    The Living Word of God
    The Spoken Word of God.
    And The Holy Spirit will take care of all the rest by the Law of the Spirit rom 8

    Head Faith Heart Faith comes from the reformation debate Calvanism Arminianism what we need is a reformation from the reformation

    here for an example :
    a 0 point calvanist thats not an arminian
    a Non denominational Fundamental Evangelical Bible Believer Believing the Bible Teaches Eternal Security of The spiritual and carnal believer in Christ.

    That statement wipes out Calvanism and Arminianism.
    for neither Calvanism or Arminianism have a message for the Holy Spirit to use for souls to Trust Christ Jesus by Faith and know that A Soul receives the Free Gift of eternal life the moment they believe The Gospel of Grace.
    the teachings only can produce followers of a system of thought. A system of thought to compartmentalize scripture.
    Buying Book’s Book’s Book’s buy another book enter a program.
    Head Faith Heart Faith as an example.
    Faith and Belief are synonymous Heart and Mind are synonymous. It is the object of our Faith Christ Jesus.
    Thinking and Thoughts are absolutely essential for Spiritualy and Growth.
    The Spirit of God gets a hold of us in our thinking as we study the Word of God. At any moment we are either Spiritual or Carnal in our Thinking we are either for or against God. There is no middle Ground.

    another simple way to knock out Calvanism and Arminianism is ask
    How did you receive the Holy Spirit?
    both systems of thought would answer
    Huh?

  409. Those who build their soteriology on a fool’s argument are definitely not enduring clear doctrine.

  410. Thanks for the response.

  411. Jason, sticking with what is clear is a good approach.

  412. Wow, I never realized the confusion that these manuscripts caused. Even the KJV went with the Alexandrian texts, go figure. Drove the point about sticking by what is clear home.

    I found the reference to hominids humorous.

  413. gosoel = gospel, my bad.

    I will give it a read. I have never found an analysis that satisfied me completely. I always fall back on interpreting what is cloudy by what is clear.

  414. Jason, you might like reading the extensive analysis of this passage at Clear Gospel. You may have problems with the formatting. If so, select the section in which you are interested, copy it and paste it into a Word document. See below:

    http://old.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=10&c_id=69

  415. I find it interesting that the vain fool is the same one who says that he will show his faith by his works if James shows his faith without works. This does not make any sense, unless James is aguing against both perverting the gosoel and being useless.

  416. Vicki, I think there is a difference between believing a set of facts and acting on that belief. The Bible tells us we are saved by believing the gospel, not by acting on our beliefs.

    I am very happy that you asked about “demon faith.”

    First, the Bible says demons believe there is one God. That isn’t the same as believing the gospel. It is simply monotheism. However, the Bible makes it clear that demons both recognize, and in certain cases obey, Jesus. See Matthew 8:28-32.

    Second, demons can’t be saved. Jesus did not die for THEIR sins. Jesus paid for the sins of Adam’s race, of which demons are not a part. Demons are beyond redemption.

    Third, the “demons believe and tremble” argument in James appears to have been the hypothetical ramblings of an imaginary vain man, or fool.

  417. I’ll have to think on that a bit, thanks. Questions: do you believe assenting to a set of facts about something is the same as acting on those facts personally? IOW, can one assent to facts on something and not act on it personally? Hope I’m making it clear. What about the devils? The Bible says they believe and tremble. What kind of belief would you call that since they obviously aren’t going to heaven. Thanks.

  418. I have had my own thoughts on the heart vs head thing. Many illustrations of faith are defective.

    Take getting in a wheelbarrow for example. Assent here is agreeing that the acrobat is able to roll you along the wire unharmed. Trust is getting in the wheelbarrow. If you agreed that the acrobat was reliable but did not get in, you had the wrong kind of faith. But this illustration is defective. Jesus is not asking you to get in a wheelbarrow but to merely assent to the gospel.

    Another example is crossing a bridge. If you assent to the bridge but do not cross, you get nowhere. Again, defective.

    The problem with these examples is that they all involve an active element. With the gospel, the trusting is in the assenting, and there is no distinction. He who agrees with the gospel trusts the Savior, by definition. The belief itself is the act of trust. It couldn’t be simpler. Adding works would not be trust.

  419. Vicki, welcome back! I am encouraged that you are still here.

    Regarding your comment:

    A person who hasn’t placed faith in Jesus for salvation has not excercised either intellectual assent (“head faith”) or heart faith. He simply hasn’t placed his faith in Jesus as his Savior at all. If someone believes the gospel, he will understand and believe that Christ died for HIS sins. That is, that the atonement that Christ provided is effectual for HIM. Believing the gospel means understanding and believing that it is for you.

    The reason I make no distinction between head faith and heart faith is because the Bible doesn’t.

    If there actually were a difference between “head faith” and “heart faith,” one’s assurance of eternal life would have to rest on his determining whether or not he had the right “kind” of faith.

  420. I haven’t posted in quite some time but feel the need to comment on something. Why do you insist that there is no difference between intellectual/mental assent and faith/belief? I’ll never get that because it’s so obviously false to me. I know the difference, I’ve experiences the difference. Bob Wilkin told me there is only one kind of belief and I seem to be hearing the same thing here. That’s just not true and it should be obvious that it’s not true.. There are plenty of people who will assent that God exists and even that Jesus existed and died for the sins of the world but they haven’t placed faith in Him for salvation. I’m sure you have an answer for everything worked out (I’ve seen a few novel interpretations of Scripture here) and may think you’re right about everything but I’m going to have to disagree with that. I’ve seen before how people manipulate the Bible to support a particular belief, especially among Catholics. And even if whoever decides whether this gets posted or not decides not to, at least one person will see it. I’ve been coming and reading posts though haven’t posted and I still find problems with some of what I hear here.

  421. Sadly, I have known a man who named the name of Christ and thought that poverty earns salvation. I had started to devour his books and stopped because I could take it no more. To him, economic improvement would actually be bad in itself. The best economic system in his view would be an austerity program. Austere, just like the monks. Oh, but they had such in the country of his origin. He railed against it, calling it Satanic. Figure that.

    I just want the simple gospel, because it saves. Neither behavioral nor economic improvements are automatic.

  422. Here is another, from a Washington Post article entitled “Christians are More Than Twice as Likely to Blame a Person’s Poverty on Lack of Effort.”

    A couple of the comments in the article, quoting a historian named Helen Rhee, were as follows:

    To the premillenialists, Rhee said, “The world is already lost. Things are going to get worse … The betterment of society is very intangible. You don’t know whether it’s going to happen or not. It’s a very difficult thing to do. You’ve got to just focus on what is important – that is, salvation if the soul.” That is, preach the gospel. Evangelism.”

    Saving an individual’s soul by correcting his personal behavior will do him far more good than fixing an economic structure, if the world is about to end anyway, Rhee explained. “They are being compassionate.”

    My comments: Possessing eternal life is infinitely more important than a person’s economic circumstances. So, any compassion without sharing the gospel is temporal.

    The writer’s understanding of how one receives eternal life seems to be confused. On one hand, she references the gospel. Then, she talks about saving someone’s soul by correcting his behavior. No one ever received eternal life, nor contributed to receiving eternal life, by making any corrections to his personal behavior.

  423. The false distinction was drummed into me so many times, ministry after ministry. InterVarsity, martyrs, Hanegraaff, his guests, internet forums. Heart vs Head.

    Herbert Armstrong said that Jesus died not to free us from the law but to empower us to keep the law. LS teaches exactly the same thing. I was never really freed from Herb until I came here.

    Back in 2000, I was posting on a forum on Black Voices, now defunct. It was full of lordshippers and pagans. I was repeatedly told to stay out of black people’s business, which I should have heeded. I was not reconciling anything. Creflo Dollar was popular. Hanegraaff was hated. I was part of the confusion.

    On that forum there was one lordshipper who called himself a prophet. He knew who was born again. He knew I was saved. I disagreed with his sin list and was reprobate. He promoted Stanley, taught eternal security. I said I believed. He called it lip service. I had failed my probation. He was wrong about me the first time. Some prophet.

  424. Bilateral contract salvation (aka “Lordship Salvation”) has become the false front for Christianity.

    Consider the following quotes from a June 29, 2016 article in The Atlantic, entitled “Just Another Sinner Born Again:”

    Evangelicals have distinctive ideas about what constitutes religious conversion, which they call being “born again.” To be born again, one must make a decision to pray, repent sin, and accept Jesus’s salvation. Most evangelicals look to such a conversion as the decisive mark of whether someone is Christian or not; some regard Roman Catholics and mainline Protestants who have not been through this experience as not really Christian. Being born again is a matter of the heart rather than intellectual assent or institutional affiliation.

    My comment: One doesn’t need to say a prayer or repent of sins to receive eternal life. Eternal life is receiced by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Anyone who has believed in Jesus as Savior is born again, irrespective of religious affiliation, or lack thereof. And, there is no difference between “intellectual assent” and belief.

  425. Jason, very good points!

  426. Chastisement inspection is no better. Persecution inspection is the worst. Causes martyr complexes. Inverts the cross, turns the atonement on its head. Speaks with a perceived authority of one bearing the marks of Christ and yet has the same effect as all other lordshipping. I see it all the time in promotions of organizations said to be supporting the “persucuted church”, essentially modern day “church fathers”. They have no clue what gospel they are dying for. The implied message is invariably: if you aren’t living like the martyrs, you are not truly saved. I personally labored under this deluded guilt trip.

  427. Fruit Inspection only causes Spirtual Pride, arogence or lack of assurance.
    Thats what happens looking at ourselves our walk instead of Christ Jesus and His Finished work.
    With lack of assurance as Holly said you can not know how to make deciples.

  428. Fruit inspecting on the outside may seem to work, but as Curtis mentioned, there is no perfection, so then what? And what may appear to be good fruit might be rotten inside (as in the false prophets of Matthew 7). And self-examination? (Always induced by mistaken understanding of 2 Cor 13:5). It just cannot every work based on works, since works can’t play a part in receiving the free gift of eternal life. They never seem to realize the irony. This is why people don’t know how to make disciples. They haven’t become disciples really, because they do not know the truth.

  429. Yeah and no matter how low I would set the standards of myself looking for fruit that still would be mickey mouse to God’s Standards which is perfection.
    I would have to admit failure failure after failure.
    We don’t live the Christian Life by trying to live the Christian Life.
    as believers God has given us the Holy Spirit. That does everything for us perfectly.
    Just as the Lord Jesus did not use His Devine Nature but Did the Father’s will apart from Him doing of His ownself.

  430. Following is an excerpt from a comment on another site:

    There is much of grace in James and I firmly believe grace alone saves and is not necessarily accompanied by works. Yet it is Christ’s will we produce “fruit” even “much fruit”. To have no fruit, especially after much time in Christ, is no doubt an aberration, a strong indication something is wrong…even a lack of true salvation through faith in Christ alone.

    My comment: So, should we examine our fruit (or that of others) to determine whether or not we (or they) have “a lack of true salvation through faith in Christ alone?”

    This is utter nonsense. This is fruit inspection 101. The source of assurance reflected in this comment is WORKS, despite the fact that the writer says that faith is not necessarily accompanied by works.

    The writer is speaking out of both sides of his mouth, and muddying the gospel in the process.

  431. All these people who speak of works truly have not examined their works. The ones that do, do it as the Pharisee in the square; “I thank God I am not like these sinners”, but if they actually considered their own thoughts, or imperfect actions. Evidently God grades on a scale in their case.

    Phil, I actually did have one of those guys one time who did recount his ‘works’. He talked about what he did for the poor, and how he gave here and there and fasted and prayed, etc. I was actually so instantly sad for him, it was like watching those hand puppets, the left hand telling the right hand what it was doing and the other one saying S’aright. 🙂

    These people though keep other believers from growing with the testimony of their own works. They don’t point people to Christ, but they point people to them. Then some point people to Christ and His Word. The simple needed things that people just aren’t getting. Christ and His Word.

  432. Yes God is always a perfect gentleman..
    God does not force a soul to accept the Free gift of eternal life by placing simple faith/believing in the finished work of Christ.
    many false doctrine teach inability to respond like a dead person. But that is false. We are created in the image of God with a free will volition to think and choose.
    “dead in trespasses and sins?
    if a dead person is dead as in a corpse how does a corpse aquire trespasses and sins?
    how does a dead person have a nature?
    how could a dead person be born?
    Ephesians 2:3

  433. To clarify my last statement: It takes a believer to do good works in the Spirit. The Spirit never forces good works in a believer, nor is it automatic.

  434. John, concerning your email comment. How many and which works does the Holy Spirit produce? This is what the legalists and LS’ers. used to ridicule we who actually hold with saved by grace alone thru faith alone. But they will soon change the subject if you ask them to give an account of all THEIR repenting, good works and changes in THEIR lives, and then ask them if they are sure they have done enough repenting of sins, changes and righteousness in their lives so that they God will accept and eternally save them. I would ask them based on their works if they are CERTAIN they are saved?? Are they certain they have changed their lives and are living righteousness enough to be saved.?

    If they ridicule me for believing OSAS by grace alone. I simply say that I am not saved by my repenting or forsaking my sins, or living a godly or righteous life. Instead, I am saved once and for all time because Christ paid for all my sins; that they were buried with Him, and I have been raised with him and have received all his righteousness and sinlessness as a free gift. My salvation, my justification is finished; it’s a done deal. Paul tell us in Ephesians 2 that we have already been raised and seated with Him (spiritually for now). But from God’s view we are already there in eternity. There is nothing we can add to Christ complete saving work. This is my answer to the faith + this or that LS’rs, and it shuts their mouths because they don’t have an answer for the complete, finished saving works of Christ.
    These LS’er, Calvinists or whoever, either don’t really understand the full meaning of the gospel of our salvation, or they are so steeped in their arrogance and pride that they have to show that they are one-up on the other guy. They want to show they are way up here and you are way down there. They want to weigh others down with works requirements, yet they don’t want to look in the mirror to see themselves to see if they measure up to the works requirement they place on others. Sound familiar? There have always been Pharasees with their false gospel ready to pounce on believers, and today is no different.
    Sure, I believe the Holy Spirit produces good works in the believer life, but these works are not a condition or requirement for salvation.

  435. Saving faith produces the works of the Holy Spirit in one’s life.

    This flawed line of reasoning means that behavioral changes for the better are the only source of assurance for eternal life.

    Romans 6:23 says the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. It does not say that the gift of God is positive behavioral changes through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    That is precisely why a personal testimony that centers in one’s changed life points people away from Christ.

    A believer who is walking in the Spirit will manifest the fruits of the Spirit. But, believers are exhorted to walk in the Spirit, so it is not automatic.

  436. The people James wrote to were saved by faith (James 1:18), yet some did not have works.

    It is possible for a saved person to be a hearer ONLY and not a doer (James 1:22)

  437. The Holy Spirit produces Faithfulness. Not saving Faith.
    the end of Galatians 5:22 should read Faithfulness not Faith.
    rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Without Faith it is impossible to please God..

    So how does that work if Holy Spirit produces saving faith?
    That would mean everyone goes to heaven because Holy Spirit makes no mistakes and looses none?

    It is easier than saving Faith.. Heaven is a gift to all those who believe.
    There is no saving merit in water baptism.
    water baptism is an identification principle of what has taken place Spiritualy.

    Why did Jesus get Baptized?

  438. The following comment came via e-mail to Expreacherman:

    “He that believes and is baptized”. “Faith without works is dead”. “Bear fruits in keeping with repentance”.. you are seriously misleading people to hell. Saving faith produces the works of the Holy Spirit in ones life.

    Saved by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone.

    My comment: Which works of the Holy Spirit does saving faith produce? How many? How soon?

    This commenter says he is saved by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone, and yet he also claims that if someone does not have some undefined works in his life, he does not have “saving faith. This is completely contradictory. What is the source of his assurance? Christ, or the works that the Holy Spirit is purportedly producing in his life?

  439. Indeed, I noticed a lot of Spurgeon quotes, as well other questionable sources. Spurgeon is the “prince” of lordshippers.

    I browsed Middletown Bible Church before I came here last year, and fell into Zeller’s stinkin’ thinkin’.

    Some internet comments of the past questioned Lou’s stand against LS, and I can’t remember where I found them.

    I noticed that he is free with his use of bible translations, notwithstanding a KJVO leaning position. He even quoted the New Lordship Translation.

    I guess this is a double-minded, unstable man.

  440. jason, we are not comfortable with Lou’s site, due to his tolerance for Charles Spurgeon and George Zeller. Both Spurgeon and Zeller attempt to eviscerate the gospel.

  441. The gospel according to Lou Martuneac
    “However, Stegall’s tendency to downplay the centrality of 1 Corinthians 15 is still evident today from the fact that on his church website there is absolutely no mention of 1 Corinthians 15 in his explanation of the gospel, even though numerous other verses are cited. This is the classic patchwork gospel approach used to define the gospel. But if the definition of Paul’s gospel is based on a synthesis of many Scriptures instead of an exegesis of 1 Corinthians 15, the search for the gospel message becomes largely a matter of speculation and human opinion. Furthermore, such an approach creates more problems than it solves. For example, who determines which passages to incorporate into the patchwork gospel synthesis? What Bible passages make the cut and which ones don’t? Who determines how many times a truth has to be mentioned before it becomes essential to the gospel synthesis? And how is the authoritative number determined? What if there is disagreement as to which passages to incorporate into the gospel synthesis? Bob Wilkin poses several more valid questions to consider, such as: “which passages do we link? How do we know which passages give us one or more of the essentials? How do we know when we have found all of the passages and all of the essentials?”10 Another problem with the patchwork and partial gospel espoused by Stegall and Hixson is that it fails to explain the passages of Scripture which specifically include, for example, Christ’s burial in the gospel message…”

    Lou’s negative comments linger on several blogs on the internet and are not helpful. His unbalanced attention to one passage is hard to understand. His railings against Duluth are shameful. I had to mention this because I have noticed that he was once an active contributor to this site, and was helpful in dealing with the crossless gospel and GES. Men like Hixson, Rokser, and Stegall have been a blessing to this community of believers in God’s free grace, and Curtis and I have recently had a chance to meet up with Randy at a Duluth sponsored conference.

    Now I don’t know what problem Lou has with “synthesis”, comparing scripture with scripture. Classic doctrines like the Trinity have been exegeted this way. Understanding that God’s gift of eternal life cannot be added to is likewise clarified by numerous passages. Complicating the gospel with extra baggage is the very thing we try to avoid. Lou brings up unfounded charges of paganism and triangle worship against a fellow believer and causes division, which reminds me of a few obnoxious individuals who have personally tried to put me under the law in the past. This is another person to mark and avoid.

  442. Jason – if only we would really apply 1 Thessalonians 5:21 and Acts 17:11, along with 1 Timothy 4:16 and Heb 5:12-14, He will keep us as we continue in His Word (John 8:31-32; Luke 10:38-42). It’s a continual process to compare His Word according to men’s words (1 Cor 4:6).

  443. Jon,

    Jack also was extremely kind and patient with me, and I thank God for the beloved in Him. I was so blessed also to read Tom Cucuzza’s ‘Secure Forever’ book. I downloaded it to my kindle then was ‘stuck’ in a doctor’s waiting room for almost two hours, but what a blessing to read while I was there. Praying your father-in-law might still be affected by God’s Word which is plentiful in Tom’s book.

    The reason they don’t have discernment is spelled out in Heb 5:12-14.

  444. Hmmm, if Joel Osteen thinks God is too good to send people to hell, then why does he think God is not good enough to save people who don’t repent of sin? And where does he think the unrepentant of sin go? Maybe he just says it because he hears it said so much. Maybe he is as double-minded about hell as he is about grace.

    “Even people who are clear on the gospel who sit under false teaching are likely to have it rub off on them.” -johninnc

    I am a living example of this. Enough reform in name only theology rubbed off on me to wet a towel. Not any more.

  445. Brian, thanks for bringing this up. Yes, Joel Osteen has the same gospel as Billy Graham and other similar “works salvationists.”

    People often overlook this, while criticizing Osteen on other fronts.

  446. From what I have seen several times, Joel Osteen closes his sermons with a ‘salvation’ message for people to “repent of their sins” and “make Jesus Lord of their lives.” Osteen is often criticized for weak/incorrect theology in other areas, but his false ‘salvation’ message unfortunately passes under most peoples radar. It’s basically the same at then end of every sermon.

  447. Jon, it’s hard to say how some people can hear grace and works, side-by-side, and not seem to be able to tell the difference. I don’t know. Some people are just unable to come to grips with the fact that churchianity is often not real. Even people who are clear on the gospel who sit under false teaching are likely to have it rub off on them.

  448. I am very thankful to have found this website several years ago. It was not by accident I’m sure. So thankful to finally see and hear the gospel of grace in my early 40’s. Jack was very kind and encouraging to me, in spite of what a dolt I can be. It is so scary to me to think of all the people who need to hear the Good News and sit in “church” pews every week and never hear it. Or hear a false version of it. Grace is unmerited favor. Salvation is a free gift. Jesus’ death,burial and resurrection paid for ALL of my/our sins. Christ’s righteousness is credited to my account when I put my faith in Him. Eternal life lasts forever and once you are saved there is nothing you can do that will send you to hell. I never heard any of this in a Mennonite church or an Evangelical Free church,etc.
    I once shared Tom’s Secure Forever book to my Father in law and he said it seemed like good doctrine, but didn’t say much else about it. They continue to attend a Mennonite church. He has talked about head faith vs. heart faith. They now tell us they enjoy watching Joel Osteen pretty much every week. I just wonder why they don’t have more discernment?

  449. Jon, I agree with what you are saying, and rejoicing with you that you are out of the false teaching! I know you are very thankful for that. I’ve seen many use the word ‘obey’ never realizing in relation to the gospel it’s believing, (also see in Gal 5 – those who were hindered from obeying the truth). I am exceptionally thankfully lately as I see so many in deception on social media, seems to be growing by leaps and bounds.

  450. Johninnc, that’s how I understood it when you first commented 🙂

  451. Holly, I agree, John’s point was valid. Obedience to the gospel is Biblical. My point was that the chances of them meaning it that way was slim to none. I realize now he was not trying to give them a pass. I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I am in an area in Canada with a lot of Mennonites(being a former one myself) around. I am not surrounded by Baptist’s so that is not something I can speak to. I think false gospels are damaging no matter who is promoting them. I am sure we all agree with that.

  452. Holly, I was equating obeying the gospel to believing the gospel, as in Romans 10:16-17.

    And, I do not think the Mennonites understand the truth. I do not give them the benefit of the doubt, anymore than I give Billy Graham, Charles Spurgeon, the Southern Baptist Convention, or John MacArthur the benefit of the doubt. They all teach false gospels.

  453. Jon, don’t think John was giving the Mennonites credit (or at least how I saw it), he was just commenting they could be right in only one area, obeying the gospel = believing the gospel, and likely he was citing Romans 10:16-17.

    But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    I agree with you both, the Mennonites don’t understand the truth, they have added works to the gospel which is accursed.

  454. Sure, I’ll take any pointers I can get.

    The late Jack Weaver set all of this up, so I have been trying to keep up with it, although I am not very tech savvy.

  455. Maybe someone with programming skills could volunteer and fix the problem. Depending on the technologies, I could research how to move the reply box. This could involve simply moving a textarea tag in a HTML or PHP file.

  456. Brad, I’m not sure how to move the comment box.

  457. Getting too deep into anabaptist history is hardly a step above “church” history. There are lots of baptists who go deep into it. If the Mennonites are representative of the anabaptist movement, there is not much there.

  458. Wow Jon, the mind games being played in that quote are amazing. They are essentially saying “Eternal security is true, but is conditional upon a person’s actions”. In other words, your salvation is secure until you sin.

    These truly are the days of rampant apostacy. Satan is getting more and more subtle in his works for salvation messages.

    On another topic, seeing as the comments on this website have been reversed recently (with the most recent being at the top), can you also put the comment box at the top as well?

  459. Jon, I am almost certain you are correct as to their intentions. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.

    And, the statement that you quoted doesn’t sound like good news to me either.

  460. Well John, I think they should have stated that belief and obedience to the gospel are interconnected then. Their statement was very open to interpretation. Knowing that most Mennonites believe you can lose your salvation(Arminian), I think you are giving them too much credit.
    Here is a very telling statement from an anabaptist website of what Mennonites believe: “The Scriptures teach that redemption is all of God, but salvation is conditional and based upon a conscious act of our will in the exercise of faith in Jesus Christ. The Scriptures also teach that a person who continues to exercise saving faith in Jesus Christ is secure. But when a person begins to neglect his spiritual life he will come to the place where he is not truly exercising saving faith in Jesus Christ. He may continue to say he believes, but it is only a verbal belief and not a conscious exercise of the will to live for God. That is all that saving faith is, a conscious exercise of the will to always do what we believe the Bible teaches. It is also obeying the voice of the Spirit in areas where the Scriptures are silent.
    When a person continues to habitually practice sin, he “ceases to be a believer” and is no longer a Christian. So the statement “The believer is eternally secure” is a correct statement. It is the definition of who is a believer that must be answered.”
    That is from an article titled the Security of the Believer. Doesn’t sound like Good News to me.

  461. Jon, that would be true, only in one sense: Obeying the gospel means to believe the gospel. Any meaning beyond this could be implying false works “salvation.”

  462. Not really an internet comment but a slogan I saw on a local Mennonite church sign. The sign said: “Belief and obedience are interconnected.”

  463. Jason
    we are all natural born legalist.
    bent towards the spirit of Cain
    Even the atheist by denying God have deified themselves as their own god

  464. Even my own thinking regresses if I am not careful. It is good news that receiving eternal life is not a process.

  465. Jason, there are quite a few out there who claim to teach against LS, while embracing one of the primary tenets of LS – “a true Christian will…”

  466. I even encountered a video that exposed “lordship salvation errors” and yet it taught one by quoting “works meet for repentance” out of context and teaching that the changed life results from getting saved. Even some who recognize lordship as heresy are not free of lordship.

  467. Yes, it is church of Christ John, but as we know, even though Loadship teachers may ‘say’ they don’t teach any works, it’s the same thing, these Church of Christ false teachers at least are up front about their accursed gospel although they don’t rightly handle His Word. The others are sneaky and don’t really say what they mean, and of course dishonest in handling God’s Word.

  468. Holly, 2 Corinthians 7 is a “go to” passage for Lordship “salvationists.” How is a nonbeliever supposed to muster up a Godly sorrow?

  469. Holly, it sounds like the false “Church of Christ” religion.

  470. Down in this internet commenter’s expansion of his corrupted gospel he says (just as I mentioned above – they use Scripture spoken to believers and use it out of context):

    Repentance then is produced by Godly sorrow (2 Corinthians 7:10) which >>>leads to a change of heart and a change of mind, which is the beginning of a changed life… one that is dedicated to God.

    No, repentance in 2 Cor 7 spoke to believers, and the Word tells us exactly what their repentance led them to being saved regarding: what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

  471. John, here is another internet comment regarding ‘salvation’ that you might recognize. Interesting that we have more of a part in our salvation according to this internet comment.

    GOD’S PART

    1. The great love of God for man (John 3:16)
    2. He gave His Son, Jesus Christ, as the Saviour (Luke 19:10)
    3. Sent the Holy Spirit as a guide (John 16:13)
    4. Gave the Gospel as “the power” unto salvation (Romans 1:16)
    5. Provided atonement by the blood of Christ (Romans 5:9)

    MAN’S PART

    1. Hear the Gospel. (Romans 10:17, John 8:32)
    2. Believe the Gospel (Hebrews 11:6, John 20:31)
    3. Repent of past sins (Luke 13:3, Acts 17:30)
    4. Confess faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:10, Matthew 10:32)
    5. Be Baptized (Galatians 3:27, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38)
    6. Be faithful unto death (Revelations 2:10)

    God has done His part; will you do yours?

  472. Jason, a guy had a sign, something like the ‘will work for food’ signs as my son-in-law and I left Home Depot. We had been staying in the area for several hours (after my visit to urgent care) so I could acclimate a little bit and give the medicine and 02 some time to work. So we had also had lunch/dinner, and he had run some errands. We both had leftovers from our meals, my son in law had ordered a sandwich, and had only eaten half. It was a clean cut, and so my SIL was scrambling for the food as I was going through my wallet for one of Tom Cucuzza’s tracts. I asked him, would you like half a sandwich, and his response was not happy, and he said, ‘well I guess’… He wanted money not food. I don’t think the Lord would have us giving out of guilt but out of joy, He loves a cheerful giver. It is a responsibility to be a good steward, and difficult when we have people asking us for money. I try to ask a few questions. Do I know their gospel? Have I fellowshipped with them? Do I feel comfortable giving if I have it?

    I still have trouble to this day, because I would give away the farm so to speak 🙂

  473. Oh my, our worst fears. How dare we be rich. Every time a bum asks me for money, thoughts like that have run through my mind. I have not always responded appropriately. The truth sets us free of such worries.

  474. We were watching a rerun last night of an old sitcom. The vignette involved a couple who had received money from the woman’s father under false pretenses. Upon finding that their friend needed the money for an operation to save the life of her dog, the couple decided to give her the money. The dialog went something like this:

    Wife: “Why should we give her the money?”
    Husband: “Because, if we don’t, we’ll spend forever burning in a lake of fire!”
    Wife: “Both of us?”
    Husband: “Yes.”
    Audience: Laughter

    My comment: Teachable moment. Many people have a works for salvation mindset.

  475. Right John… And what’s going to happen when it dawns on them that they maybe haven’t hated their sin enough?

    One lady said, “Our lack of interest and character qualities of the Holy Spirit, the fruit, is an indicator that someone is a pretender, they should be warned so they can choose Christ if they have only played the game, but never trusted Christ.”

    She also repeated this basically in another comment, but followed it up with the Matthew 7 warning for false prophets (they always seem to miss that, and miss the works justification).

    The problem is that people think they are born again but may not be, not because of their sin but because they are pretenders, they never trusted Christ that’s why they have no conscience toward their sin.

    Matthew 7:21-23 “21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”

    Somehow they know they never ‘trusted Christ’ because ‘they have no conscience towards their sin’.

  476. Holly, it also makes their assurance of eternal life rest on their consciousness and hatred of sin, rather than on the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

  477. John… it’s hard to keep up sometimes with the crazy comments out there, they seem to live to out-do each other. This false comment I saw today:

    “When we become born again Christ changes our hearts, we no longer want to sin, we hate any sin that we do and we confess to be cleansed. If someone remains in sin after claiming to be a Christian and has no conscience about it, then they were never born again.”

    I guess this is a person who believes Ananais and Sapphira were not saved, or that Simon (whose heart was not right) was not saved (even though he had believed). I hate these types of discussions, because it leads the person inevitably to accuse us of wanting to sin, or loving or sin, etc. These have no conscience about their pride, by their own standards they have accused themselves of being unsaved and literally should rip 1 Cor 5 & 6 also out of the Bible because surely an incestuous adulterer who wanted to sin, who didn’t hate his sin, his church friends didn’t hate his sin, perhaps none of them were saved? And if so, then these chapters have to be false (according to their own words).

  478. Curtis, good comment regarding mid-acts dispensationalism. I’ve been planning on writing something (again Lord willing) for quite some time. So much I have collected (including those wonderful Memes). I’ll take a listen to Dennis also. Thanks.

  479. Wow, never thought of that. So contrary to the loving God who gives eternal life.

  480. Here is one from today:

    Jesus of Nazareth (historical and proven, not at issue here) said he’d rather have someone hot or cold (believe or clearly not believe) than someone lukewarm. I agree with what he said. I think it’s more respectable to be an honest atheist than a Christian in name only. I respect Christians that sincerely believe and try to live it. I respect honest atheists and agnostics that are upfront about not believing. I don’t respect people who say they believe one thing and live out another.

    My comment: Jesus did not say that someone who is cold is someone who clearly does not believe.

    Revelation 3:15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

    If this had to do with whether or not someone was a believer, Jesus would literally be saying that He would prefer they be a non-believer (that is, that He would prefer that they go to hell!). That is one of the crazier notions that I have ever read.

  481. Marxist buttons, anti-marxist buttons? What’s the difference? Dominionism is liberation theology from the right. None of it is liberating. Can it really be that 95% of churchianity is bethel church and the majority is truly conservative?

  482. all them news anchor talking heads if they don’t in someway get your blood pressure up by pressing your buttons they feel they have not don’t their Job.
    I get a kick out of the conservative talking heads busting on passed adminstration Now that we have a rule of Law trying to get re established a Conservative administration . Now they find themselves flatfooted how quickly they start digging up dirt again saying nothing positive. I don’t listen to any of them.

  483. The guy who was tickled by Obama is Chris Matthews. I used to listen to Mark Levin (the “Grating” One) make fun of him, along with Nancy Pelosi.

  484. below is a teaching link on hyper Dispensationalism or Mid Acts dispensation . Most souls (myself as well) coming away from legalism and end up swinging all the way over into License , mysticism , Gnosticism . It is easy to do and fun to enjoy such freedom. However there is balance to scripture with No contradictions in scripture. There is very little information that disputes Mid Acts dispensation (youtube is loaded with mid acts dispensation teaching) and many go unnoticed among Free Grace . Im not questioning someones salvation (Justification) However I do and believe the scriptures warn us and tells us to avoid and shun false teaching, Prove all things ,. Study our workmanship, be a Berean. If you found this thread looking for more information about hyper dispensation or Mid Acts. Welcome. but please see the statement of Faith here at expreacherman and The Clear Gospel Booklet .
    1 point of many if i may that refutes Hyper Dispensation
    Romans 16:7
    Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

    who also were in Christ before me.
    “who also were in Christ before me.” this is Paul speaking of those also in Christ before him.
    Now were those in old testament redeemed ? Yes
    Were they in Christ ? No
    Was Paul redeemed ? Yes

    There are several other points in below teaching that refutes Hyper Dispensation , Mid Acts.

    20 – Dispensations 17 – Hyper-Dispensationalism: I Am Of Paul
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=515172320374

  485. John, every time I see these comments made by the press, I think of the one guy who got chills down his leg with Obama (don’t want to put the specific words to it). They haven’t a clue what saves, and Who is the Redeemer. They aren’t acquainted with the only Mediator, and they clutch those beads in the hope (and multiple prayers to mostly Mary), that they are ‘in’. I hate it, but I hate the idea of people losing their soul for all eternity because of these false traditions of men.

  486. Jason, I ‘think’ Michael’s book is linked here, and if I remember correctly his email is on it. Not quite sure. He has come and commented here a few times too.

  487. One sins pompously, the other sins ascetically. They both sin. One sinner cannot redeem another. Christ will save both if they only believe. The worldly media teaches heresy hilariously.

    The Ave Maria can be listened to on Youtube. People think that is beautiful because it is in Latin and has pleasing melody. It has been covered in classical music so many times. It is an age-old lie. Jesus already prayed for us sinners in the gospel of John, a few days before his passion and crucifixion.

  488. From an editorial in today’s “New York Times” entitled “A Prayer for Donald Trump”:

    Regarding Trump’s scheduled meeting with Pope Francis:

    One of them is splenetic. The other is ascetic. One sins. The other redeems. Cue the metaphors and clutch your rosary beads.

    My comment: The Pope cannot redeem anyone. Christ is our redeemer.

  489. Is he reachable? He actually got to use his programming skills, lol. And he loves astronomy. He and I could talk about lots of things.

  490. Jason, I’m sure Michael would be blessed to hear it.

  491. My experience, too. I escaped the name it and claim it mindset with the help of Mr Orthodox, only to discover that I still wasn’t back to the gospel. Equip.org and faithalone.org were and are part of the junk, as were ptm.org and wcg.org. Even letusreason.org is junk. They think that running the race in vain proves you weren’t saved. I never liked them, anyway. When I stumbled here in roughly 2011, it sounded to me too good to be true yet irrefutable. Last year, I read Michael Patrick Bowen, and he scared me out of repent of sin. He confirmed what I thought I knew about I never knew you. I had a blind guide from IV back in 1996 who I am sure would never get it. I was really stunned about Stanley especially.

  492. Jason, I was actually about to re-comment as I saw how my comment might have sounded. I didn’t mean it to somehow sound how it ended up — it’s just that I have stumbled across so much junk since I first got on the internet, back in the early 90s when webpages were just that, a page 🙂 I remember first running into things I wasn’t really aware of, like the name it and claim it folks. But there was a common theme under it all. It’s man-centered.

  493. I hear you. Here, there, skeletors everywhere

  494. Jason, I agree with FryingPan9. Be very careful. Get fed, take time to study, search His Scriptures, Hide them in your heart, He’ll help by bringing them to your remembrance, keeps us from sinning, keeps us from error. The internet is chock full of deceivers and those deceived, takes much time to sift through…. and might lead you into stinkin’ thinkin’.

  495. Good sites are few and far between. Instead of marking and avoiding the bad, we should be marking and embracing the good, lol.

  496. Why keep looking?* You have this site. One look at that home page and I was done. Way too creepy . . .

    *That’s a rhetorical question . . . 🙂

  497. Websites that disappoint

    I stumble upon secondtree.net and read, concerning Eden: “GOD’S COMMANDMENT WAS CLEAR: God was indicating that righteousness cannot be achieved through learning the difference between right and wrong. To learn right from wrong would be a sin worthy of death. The way of righteousness would be to simply believe God and obey His commandment concerning the forbidden fruit.”

    Instantly, I recognized a grace site. Not always. Reading on, the commandment became unclear and then contradicted, as repent of sin was said and eternal security denounced as heresy. If God’s command is clear then believing a false gospel is breaking it.

    Oh bummer, another site to mark and avoid.

  498. I agree about the systems of thought. That was one of my points in my comment to kevin thompson.

  499. System of thought as opposed to , The Holy Spirit using a Believer Soul’s original Voice as they have studied the scriptures for themselves asking for wisdom and understanding yet all speaking the same Clear Gospel of Grace Truth of The Gospel message .

    Joh 18:34  Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? 

  500. I disagree about the comparison, Curtis. When I was influenced by Calvinism, covenant theology at least seemed consistent. Hyperdisp had me in turmoil about the changing soteriologies back then, and still does not make sense now. It totally makes Jesus untrustworthy by changing him yesterday, today, and forever. And like Calvinism, it has Jesus dying for a subset.

    Btw kevin was one of the hyperdisps linked by renee.

  501. another note when i’m listening to preaching/teaching I am expecting to hear the Gospel .I’m convinced if a preacher/teacher has been drinking or are drunk on dirty spiritual water they can not deliver a clear Gospel presentation

  502. Loud, in your face arrogant teaching . . . Like the late, not so great Gene Scott who called himself a Paulinist . . .

    That’s the first thing that came to mind when I read this comment.

  503. Looks like Hyper dispensaltionsm to me , Renee has a link on her channel to Hyper dispensastionlist on Her channel.
    I listened to her a little The hyper dispansatilist are real close to a Clear Gospel of Grace , a lot closer than Calvinism , when it comes down to it Hyper dispensation is just another system of thought. They miss the meaning of the identification principle of water baptism.
    key trigger words “rightly divide” “Paul’s Gospel”
    the preachers/ teachers usually always standing in front of dispensation display board. Loud in your face arrogant Teaching

  504. I love her passionate rants against lordship and defending the simplicity of grace.

  505. Jason, we’ve had a couple of commenters recommend her. I have read one of her comments on Redeeming Moments, and she seemed to be clear on grace. That said, I haven’t listened to, nor evaluated her teaching.

  506. Anyone come across Renee Roland’s channel? Her suffering draws my sympathy. Plenty of loadshipers comment just to tear her apart and make light of it. Yet she defends Wilkin.and has been mixed up with the purgatory teaching crowd.

  507. I guess he thought I was a Calvinist, lol. I wonder why.

  508. I saw one comment by Jacksmack (probably my 3rd or 4th) around 4 years ago on YouTube telling one commenter, “Calvinists are not welcome here.”

    That was enough for me . . . Sounds like a bit of lunatic to me.

  509. Pastor Leonard Radtke
    1 John
    Description: #6 – 1 John 2:1-9
    Date: 11/30/1977
    http://gracebiblestudies.org/Message.aspx?MessageID=219

  510. Came up file not found

  511. here is what’s missing in Baptist Preaching. Always dealing with symptoms never getting to the source.
    also what i have not heard 10 years in a IFCA church

    http://gracebiblestudies.org/Message.aspx

  512. Thanks for your comment. Jacksmack pays lip service to the rapture, so I am surprised.

  513. jack-smack
    an open handed, back-hand slap to the temple. not intended to knock someone out, but instead, to make someone appreciate your point of view in a forceful manner so they eventually agree with you. this is considered a more intimidating and more painful form of “point making” as opposed to the more traditional and less painful open hand cheek slap.

    Is that How the Grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness ?

    I have in the past listened to a lot of Jacksmack , but his brow beating tirades is not what the scriptures teach but if that is what a soul wants to read into the scriptures have at it.
    as a saved soul they will not enter into the Faith Rest Life and go about duplicating the same error as the children of Israel.
    yes there are consequences from not yielding to Holy Spirit.
    God is always a perfect gentleman. God never over rides free will and His Character is never compromised .
    another area of confusion for me is that jacksmack promotes Stephen L Sanders a legalistic anti Zionist preacher who is an out right heretical false teacher. who even has gone as far to deny the holocaust . jacksmack also promotes another anti Zionist website through his youtube channels I would rather not mention.
    when it all comes down to were rubber hits the road with most Baptist they may say Grace Grace but get them in a corner and it is works as evidence of salvation.
    most time you can smoke them out if they pass the Gospel of Grace Test and doctrinal statement is to find out were they stand with Israel in relation to the Church. Charles Spurgeon and other like hell fire preachers get all mixed up on Israel and the Church and or Gods Covenants with Israel.
    also when bumping into the King James onlyist out there on the internet and churches this is basically what I have found.
    i’m sure there are other biblically sound Baptist around but the only one I can recommend is Pastor Tom of Northland Baptist

  514. Jason, Curtis just responded, but I clumsily deleted his comment rather than posting it.

    Curtis, could you please resend the comment?

  515. I’m curious what Curtis was going to say.

  516. avoid jacksmack more later

  517. These internet believers. You find one, are built up by him for a while, and then you find he has issues. He also promoted the Ragamuffin gospel, and that is a crossless gospel. According to Brennan Manning, the one question you should expect to be asked at Judgement is, “did you believe that I loved you?”, not “did you believe that I died for you?”.

  518. Sounds like a waste of time to listen to.

  519. jacksmack77 rants on youtube that every Christian should throw away his TV because watching TV is sin. What pathetic legalism coming from a Zane Hodges defending free gracer, prescribing to all Christians the only wise way to use their time. He also condemns football as a waste of time. I guess the Four Corners Offense post reveals our ungodliness. It sure feels good to be judged. I even caught him backloading the gospel with a work when he was angry at a brother and telling him to go where unbelievers are going. I caught him listening to a really raucous secular band called Napalm Death, revealing hypocrisy. You just don’t get to pick a few pet peccadillos to condemn while you practice one.

  520. You just can’t make this stuff up. Following is a comment I read today in response to another comment regarding an article about Pope Francis:

    Flipping off the Pope?!? My friend I believe you have just punched your ticket to Hell

    My comment: The Bible says that one’s eternal destiny is dependent solely on whether he has believed in Jesus as his Savior. The Bible does not recognize any “Pope,” nor does the Bible even remotely suggest that disrespecting the Pope (a work) would result in the forfeiture of eternal life.

  521. preacher in training

    (Content removed by administrator)

    Note from administrator: Preacher in training – the fact that we warn to stay away from dominionist/theonomic/works for salvation sites in no manner reflects our commenters’ acceptance of things that are clearly wrong in God’s eyes.

  522. Jason, sounds like a good site to avoid.

  523. The website contains condemnation of abortion, but notice the tone. All readers are having their fruit inspected over the most indirect association imaginable with the evil. By merely being Americans and voting for the lesser of two evils, they are being judged worthy of condemnation. They are being condemned for merely sending their kids to a public school. Never mind the poor mother with few financial options. The Republican party fails to stop the evil, and what is the remedy offered? Not the Gospel but a violent revolution. This is pure dominionism, plain and simple. And it is loadship.

  524. Preacher in training, I think where a lot of people unknowingly fall into bondage with these types of sites is that they preach turning from sin (what? should we sin that grace might abound?) and those of us that know we should be setting our minds on things above, might unwittingly take that to be about discipleship. The trouble is, that they are preaching this in conjunction with receiving the free gift of eternal life, or proof that we have actually ever believed. The very reason many get caught up is that they are indeed preaching against abortion or licentiousness of different kinds, but the enemy knows this and so we have to understand and ask “are they preaching the gospel or another” (i.e. Church of Christ, lawkeepers, loadshippers, Calvinists, Roman Catholics etc.) or ask “are they preaching Jesus or another?” (i.e. Mormonism, Jehovah’s witness, etc.)

  525. The Calvinist bend of post-millennialism is “Reconstructionism”. The Pentecostal bend is “Domionism”. The Reconstructionists were adamantly opposed to Pentecostalism until the early 1980’s when their shared disdain for Pre-millennialism brought Calvinist and Pentecostals together in the “culture war”. The Reconstructionists taught the Domionists Preterism and have been in bed together ever since.

    Fire Breathing Christians is a Reconstructionist/ Preterist website pushing the Mosaic Law to Christians and society in general and as such and it is hostile to the Futurist, Pre-millennial, Church is not Israel view.

  526. preacher in training

    That website contains articles condemning such abominations as abortion etc. … God hates the hands which shed innocent blood. (Proverbs 6:16-19).
    But yes, such doctrines as theonomy and dominionism are completely false. I’m not very familiar with theonomy, because I did not come from a calvinist background, but dominionism is something I’ve researched in the past. That doctrine is gaining popularity in the pentacostal/charismatic and even some baptist churches with the advent of the “new apostolic reformation.” It ties in to this false notion that there will be an “end times revival” rather than what the Bible says (a great falling away). Many who believe in that doctrine also believe in post-millennial eschatology.

  527. The phrase “license to sin” comes from the whole calvanism/arminism debate.
    both sides are in biblical error.

    as born again belivers in/of Christ Jesus His finished work. We have been set free from the law of sin a death never to be judge for our sin.. We have been granted the precious privilege to choose the freedom to serve God or serve ourselves. God never overides free will. God does not make or want robots to serve out of fear but our motivatiated by His Love.
    the love of Christ Constrains us.
    Sin still has consequences…
    When hearing “license to sin” to me it is an attempt to draw me into a never ending argument. with souls who really need to hear the clarity of the Gospel.. and be re oriented to The Gospel of Grace.
    Grace teaches us to deny ungolieness..
    Practicing the Truth.. Perfecting Holiness in the Fear of The Lord..

  528. That website teaches Calvinism and Theonomy. It was linked from Pulpit and Pen, another Calvinist blog. I went there to read about Hank Hanegraaff’s hankering for Orthodoxy. I cannot find an endorsable site that will cover that story, so I had to listen to James White and Pulpit and Pen and endure more adoration of the reformation. Equip.org still displays content anathematized by the EOC. They are rotten liars, all.

    Theonomy is another devilish system within Calvivism, which is akin to fascism.

    I am not even clear where Walter Martin, CRI founder, stood on grace.

  529. preacher in training, “free gracers” are not “pro sin” or “anything goes.” I don’t think that was the point of Jason’s comment.

    I think it was more about the concept of dominionism – the false, worldly notion that we are to establish the kingdom of God on earth.

    Having said that, I am not familiar with the website, and do not intend to spend time evaluating it, or discussing it at Expreacherman.

  530. preacher in training

    Had a brief look at the front page for the website Fire Breathing Christian, and it contains a lot of articles against a lot of things which the Bible says are wrong. So, my question is, are Free Grace believers a bunch of liberals who are pro sin?
    I know we are justified by faith alone, but that doesn’t mean we should have an anything-goes attitude to sin.

  531. Jason, thanks for the warning.

  532. The Gospel According to Fire Breathing Christian

    I am disheartened to stumble upon the site Fire Breathing Christian, linked to Pulpit and Pen. I see that it is all politics and no gospel. Every title of every article and book is dripping with hypocrisy and pride. The strategy is direct: calls for revolution and taking captive every thought. Utter disdain for any restraint or self-control. Every failure of America is addressed with condemnation, directed at every reader from every walk of life. Nothing is said about the believer’s position in Christ, other than the presumption that the Christian is equipped to execute the conquest. References to repenting of sin are not lacking.

  533. Looking back to the times I listened to Hank Orthograaf, it all seems like bondage. Making sure I didn’t have a said faith, mumbling the reformation mantra, saving faith is never alone, disdaining easy believism, worrying about apostasy, getting deep into churchianity history, looking for the elusive healthy, well-balanced church, personal phone calls from Hank that revolved around a cold relationship with money, being sold a bill of goods on Israel, and now discovering that Hank is an Eastern god chaser. Enough bones of contention to make a dinosaur.

  534. Vicki Frazier, welcome! So glad to hear that comment, I can certainly relate. I had gospels of John and Romans I was giving out without ‘proving all things’ or being a noble Berean, and sadly many added things in the front pages about ‘repenting from sin’ or ‘stop sinning’ etc… Trash… Thankful He showed me in His Word.

    Here is one you can print from Pastor Tom Cucuzza.

    http://s3.amazonaws.com/storage.nm-storage.com/northlandchurch/downloads/how_to_be_sure_you_are_going_to_heaven_with_cover.pdf

  535. Johninnc, don’t get me wrong, you need to keep putting those comments out there because people need to hear. What I ‘meant’ was those who are hearing the commenter often fall into bondage. Hearing you, they understand it is false, different story. Keep up the good work!

  536. Wecome Vicki
    about 20 years for me as a saved soul yet under the bewitching of false gospels..
    lost alot of health and wealth from all the knee jerk reactions instead of faith resting.. at this point im looking unto Jesus to finish well

  537. Vicki, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    I think that there are many believers coexisting with false gospels being promulgated by religious organizations. It is important to recognize and separate from gospel-related error.

    I agree that when believers choose to walk in the Spirit, they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Unfortunately, some people will cede the point that one doesn’t have to turn from sins or do good works to receive eternal life, but then insist that “true believers” will show some degree (always unspecified) of life change.

    Lordship “salvation” error has become pervasive in professing Christendom, by inserting good works at the front-end, or by back-loading the gospel with works.

  538. Vicki Frazier

    God has recently opened my eyes to recognize all this “Lordship salvation” teachings and how it’s creeped into about everything. It’s in the gospel tracts I’ve used for years and years. Lost people don’t have to stop sinning and clean themselves up, all they need is to come to Jesus and believe on Him. After salvation, the cleanup job is the work of the Holy Spirit. I don’t know why I’ve been blind for so many years. Oh I’ve always know salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone, I just have been blind to the false teachings right in front of my face.

  539. “plain and simple infant baptism is damnable heresy teaching salvation by water baptism. Im not spurgeon”.

    This comment was on youtube responding to a comment on a video about Baptist history. He was conflating infant baptism with baptismal regeneration and calling it damnable. He was also promoting Spurgeon and now he makes a disclaimer. He hates anything Protestant, yet he could not answer the point that Spurgeon was a Calvinist. I could not tell this Baptist apart from a Campbellite, since he was making a mode of baptism necessary for salvation. Infant baptism is error, but it is not by itself adding works to salvation. Salvation by baptism by immersion is still salvation by baptism. Some Baptists are “church of christ” and do not know it.

  540. Holly, I keep registering them, because they are indicative of what is passing for “christianity.” I am hopeful that if readers see the various twists and turns that the religious have invented to corrupt the gospel, that it will help to make the truth of the gospel more clear.

  541. Hobbs, it is a load of ‘c–p’ or dung as Paul put it. Religion and learning can put us up in front of men and lift us to an important position, but without the truth it is nothing but dung, no matter how important to others.

  542. Oh, it is so terribly sad to me to see those types of comments, both for the commenter and the hearer…

  543. And, here is one in response to an article regarding the death of “Happy Days” cast member Erin Moran:

    Seek the Lord and His forgiveness today while you still have the breath of life in you. lest you perish in your sins and come unto the great judgment.

    Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, repent of your sins, turn from the world and the sinful ways of the world and follow Him is the message of the Bible.

    To do otherwise and to continue in your worldly ways will surely bring you at last to eternal ruin and damnation.

    My comment: This is a false gospel of works. Has the commenter repented of his sins, turned from the world, and the sinful ways of the world to follow Jesus? Has he done so perfectly?

    Eternal life is not received by repenting from sin, turning from the world, or by following Jesus. Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

  544. Agree that no one has to confess sins to receive eternal life, as that would be inconsistent with salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    Following is an extensive excerpt of the link that I provided earlier:

    Most of our commenters believe that 1 John 1:9 instructs believers to continually confess their sins to stay in fellowship with God. As such, the confession of sin would be an acknowledgment that we had allowed our flesh to manifest itself.

    There are several interpretations of 1 John 1:9 that I have come across that are consistent with grace, including:

    1. It is written to believers, and is a reference to their acknowledgement, in having come to Christ for eternal life, that they were sinners in need of a Savior. It does not relate to needing to confess sins on an ongoing basis to maintain fellowship.

    2. It is written to believers, and refers to confessing sin as a necessity for maintaining fellowship, or at least close fellowship, with Christ.

    3. It is written to nonbelievers who do not understand that they are sinners, in need of a Savior. If they are going to come to Christ for eternal life, they will have to come to the realization that they are sinners, in need of a Savior.

    4. It is written to both nonbelievers and believers. For nonbelievers, it is a call for acknowledgement that they are sinners in need of a Savior. For believers, it is either a call for the ongoing confession of sins or a continued acknowledgment that they have not reached a state of sinless perfection.

    We have had extensive discussion of this topic at Expreacherman, and our commenters have registered their views as to their interpretations of 1 John 1:9, together with their reasons for coming to those interpretations.

    I do not want to start that discussion afresh.

    For a good overview of that discussion, start with the first link and finish with the last link below:

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/06/01/some-lordship-salvationists-pet-passages-explained/#comment-66587

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/06/01/some-lordship-salvationists-pet-passages-explained/#comment-66678

  545. Brad you asked why are we to confess our sins. Many even here don’t really see eye to eye, but here is my take on 1 John.

    It was written to believers.
    The purpose statement so that their fellowship with God and others would continue and that their joy might remain full.

    One thing we all agree on, (I believe) is that it has nothing to do with positional forgiveness. Our new man, the one that is eternal, is washed, sanctified and perfected forever by one sacrifice (Heb 10:10, 14). By one sacrifice, one offering only are we forgiven positionally, He washed us in His own blood (Rev 1:5).

    But, as we tend to do in the flesh, we may recognize one sin and deal with it, but we might stubbornly refuse to recognize another, we do not agree we have a problem with ________________________. Do we hate someone? Then we are not ‘doing’ the truth. Do we walk in darkness? There are some things we need to recognize at times that may be hampering us, either with other believers, or with our walk with Him. It’s not God shutting us out, but us shutting Him out, and our sins do so easily beset us, and when we agree with Him that it is sin, we are more able to lay it aside. One of mine that wasn’t as obvious as the other sins that others could easily spot was thinking I was pretty good. After all, I didn’t curse, I didn’t do this, that, and the other. But that in of itself is offensive, it is pride and we can have God resisting us then (1 Pet 5), so therefore we are told to humble ourselves under His mighty hand. I know we can have a tendency to not see things we do, and I believe it is when we say we do not sin, it’s the sin we need to agree with God and humble ourselves in agreeing/confessing it.

    I do believe some teach it as some sort of laundry list prayer and you were somehow only forgiven for past sins. ALL our trespasses were forgiven at the cross (Col 2:13-15). All we needed to do was believe upon Him as our Savior (Christ and Him crucified), and resurrected of course, and we receive complete forgiveness for our sins. White as snow. Hard to comprehend, but we’re speaking of the supernatural here, not the natural, not the hand we can hold out and see, but the truth we can hold onto because He spoke it, and we believed His testimony of His Son, and He is not a man that He should lie.

    It is not by our feelings, or our experiences, which cannot be trusted because those are our flesh, but it is because He has said so, and He has done so. It is His Work and it is His Word. That’s it.

  546. Brad:

    I agree with John, when I felt that way I’d pray and ask the Lord to show me in His Word. When I’d run across certain passages that were difficult, I’d pray again, and tell Him I was wanting Him to show me, and I knew if I did my part (studied with His approval), He’d show me in due time. Or maybe it was just about me learning how to answer the accuser of the brethren. One thing you must do is be a Berean, look up all the Scriptures, take your time. Look up people’s proof-texting in context and ask the right questions — the who, what, where, why, when, how, etc., and when in doubt, look for other Scriptures to confirm what you believe it’s saying. So when you have doubts like the above you posted, take time to answer them one by one by looking up Scripture, you and the Lord.

    God does not give us a spirit of fear right? So if He wanted to show us something, we need to ask where will we find truth? (Jn 17:17). We need to not only mark, but to >>>AVOID those places that are full of the voice of the accuser. These things are not the voice of the Shepherd, these are not things He has said in His Word, this is where being built up in His Word is so important (Acts 20:32).

    When we are in the ‘strong meat’ of His Word, we are more able to exercise discernment between good and evil (Heb 5:12-14), so exercise your senses. Keep at the needed thing, the good part (Lk 10:38-42), remember everything He said, it will not be taken from you. The Holy Spirit will bring it to your remembrance. Pray for more things, He’ll direct your paths. He told those who believed to continue in His Word (why?) so they would know the truth and the truth would set them free (Jn 8:31-32).

    Well free from what? Weren’t they already set free when they believed? Yes, they were already freed from the sting of death, the penalty of sin as eternal separation from God. BUT, we still struggle because we , have to PUT OFF the old man, we need to offer ourselves as living sacrifices, but for me, it can be several times a day. Just get back up, because He has done the work. Ask Him to help—He will. We can get into bondage by going into fear and allowing bad doctrine (law) to infiltrate our thinking. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. We are cleansed by taking heed to His Word (Ps 119:9-11), that is the truth that sets believers free. 1 Tim 4:16 instructs and already saved Timothy to take heed to the doctrine SAVING both Himself and his hearers. Saved from what? They were already saved eternally, so saved from what?

    Eph 5 tells believers how Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it, and that we are sanctified and cleansed by the washing of the water by the Word, why? So HE might present to Himself a glorious church, no spot, nor wrinkle or any such thing. It goes back and forth between husband and wife and Christ in the end of the chapter. We are Christ’s body, He loves us and nourishes us. He is able to keep us from stumbling and present us faultless on that day (Jude).

    Get into studying the Word, choose to do it with His approval in mind (2 Tim 2:15), knowing as we seek Him, we’ll find Him, ask, seek, knock. He will not give us a stone or a serpent. All good gifts come from Him. He does not make it hard, people do.

    Rest in Christ, what He has done, He is the end of the law for righteousness for those of us who have believed (Rom 10:4). Sin has no power over us, because Christ is our righteousness. Now we sin, and it affects us in the flesh, and others as well so we should do good works (Titus 3:8). But it does not affect our eternity, because He has given us eternal life, already translated into the Kingdom (Col 1:13, John 5:24). You need to look up and build your own arsenal of Bible verses so you can answer the enemy when He comes in to accuse you, as Jesus did, ‘it is written’ (Matt 4).

    Sorry this is so long, hope it helps. In Christ, Holly

  547. Brad
    I can empathize with your feeling of isolation and I can vouch that this site is a good place to talk. As Curtis said, God is not a system of thought, but He is also not the author of confusion. Most systems are formulated and held to by assuming certain passages say what the system (which comes first) says those passage say. It is system first then you will understand scripture for some people. I was told this exact thing this week. The reason I cannot understand why faith must be gifted and works must follow true faith is because I don’t understand “the system”.

    Think about it, any system that says justification has not taken place if faith is not followed by works has not separated justification or faith from works even if they tell you “we do not believe in works salvation”, that is system double talk and their last resort will be to appeal to the mysteries of God and Rom 11:33. And don’t you know that the mysteries of God will always be opposed to a plain reading of the text and in harmony with “the system”.

  548. Why I Am No Longer Free Grace
    Published on Oct 25, 2013
    JB Hixson shares his insights into the free grace movement based upon his experience as a founding board member and first executive director of the Free Grace Alliance, and his seven-year tenure as administrator and faculty at the largest free grace educational institution in the world.

  549. Brad wrote:
    “john i know my past comments have been on point with free grace but i could just as easily espouse a works-based doctrine because i have looked at all theological doctrines so closely.”

    Me:
    God is NOT a system of Thought! . If and when a soul goes searching for god in a system of thought that is were they will remain ever searching and NEVER coming to the Truth resisting the Truth.

    2Ti 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 
    2Ti 3:8  Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 

  550. Comment 3 about the suicide sounds irrelevant or even contradictory. The vain things of this world are the things that keep you attached to the world, not the rash acts that take you out of it. As misguided as suicide is, the suicide committer has seen the vanity of it all and has had enough of it. There are things worth living for, and not all is vain. It is possible to be heavenly minded and hell bound by trying to earn heaven and not trusting Jesus.

  551. Brad, please find link below in which I attempted to answer your question a little over a month ago.

    https://expreacherman.com/2017/03/05/lordship-salvation-following-the-menyouscript/#comment-67488

  552. Why are we told to confess our sins for forgiveness if Jesus already died for all of our sins? Fellowship?

    I need to stop (insert unspeakable sin here) otherwise this whole situation will just get worse.

    I thank you for your prayers and responses. God bless you.

    In times like this i like to remember the examples of Lot and the Corinthian church as reasons why I haven’t lost my salvation. Yes i am aware that you believe a person cannot lose salvation but in this situation where i am plagued with those thoughts it is a nice reassurance.

    Also I know full well i have a new nature, and that that new nature is Christ living in me.

    The regeneration i experienced 7 months ago was unmistakable. It was like there was an added element to my life i had never experienced before. I had a new line of thought and a sense of fulfillment totally independant of this world.

  553. Brad, the moment a person believes in Jesus as his Savior, he is declared righteous by God, on the basis of Christ’s righteousness. He is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and kept saved by God the father, by Christ Jesus, and by the Holy Spirit. He has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.

    I think the Bible is true. As such, it cannot contradict itself. The Bible says God cannot lie. Accordingly, He cannot contradict Himself.There are three tenets taught so clearly in scripture that the only way they could be refuted by other scripture is if either the Bible was not true, or if God were a liar. Those three tenets are:

    1. Eternal life is a FREE GIFT – received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
    2. Eternal life is eternal – it can never be lost or forfeited.
    3. A person can have assurance of eternal life based SOLELY on God’s promises.

    I can tell you that you are not alone in having the enemy attempt to undermine your assurance in the truth of the gospel by having you read or consider interpretations of scripture that seem to contradict any of the three tenets listed above. Satan attacks each of us at our weakest points, and at our weakest moments.

    Some of his specific goals are:
    1. To plant seeds of doubt and despair in order to rob you of
    the joy and assurance of your eternal life.
    2. To lead you astray in order to keep you from growing in the
    knowledge of the truth, and
    3. To keep you from sharing your faith in Christ with others.

    (Source: “The Gospel” booklet, by Ron Shea)

    We can protect ourselves with God’s armor, not our own. (See Ephesians 6).

    Brad, you said: i wish i never went back to sin i remember 7 moonths ago how good everytging was it was like i came to life for the very first time everything was fantastic

    My comment: You have to realize, that as fantastic as your life seemed to be during that time, you had not achieved sinless perfection. You still had the flesh with which to contend. You may have stopped or curtailed certain behaviors, but you still were not perfect.

    Since perfection is required to get into heaven, it must be based on imputed righteousness from Christ, not our behavior, which can be fickle, and will never be perfect while we are still attached to our bodies in this lifetime.

    Brad, I would focus on this:

    Is Jesus God in the flesh? Did He die for our sins (all of them – past, present, and future)? Did that include your sins – past, present, and future? Was He raised from the dead, proving that His payment was accepted?

    The “what if I?” questions need to be turned back and met with “what DID Jesus do?”

  554. john i know my past comments have been on point with free grace but i could just as easily espouse a works-based doctrine because i have looked at all theological doctrines so closely.

    the simplest doctrine by far in my findings is faith alone. it makes the most sense.

    here is my issue:

    as (obviously) solid as you all are on the beliefs you hold, i am still very new to this. there are many verses from the bible i have come accross that (on the surface) teach a works-based salvation.

    i should be collecting them. the ones that talk about having to follow Christ and keep his commandments. the ones in Romans 2. as i said there’s so many ways to consider these verses and on top of this confusion i am being tormented with the thought that i am not saved anymore my parents are totally puzzled and i have no job or friends my dreams at night are just always about a better time in my life and i wake up and just feel terrible i feel like my life is over but it isn’t. (content removed by administrator, due to focus on specific behavior that is not relevant to the discussion).

    i wish i never went back to sin i remember 7 moonths ago how good everytging was it was like i came to life for the very first time everything was fantastic …i. even got a seasonal job! right after Christmas i fell into (list of specific behaviors removed by administrator, due to irrelevance) and it just kept happening.

    i am rambling i know but i literally have no one else to talk to

  555. that not of yourselves
    that not of yourselves
    Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 
    Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    that not of yourselves

    “There is a form of self-righteousness which leads many believers to doubt their acceptance with God because of their imperfections which they find in themselves.You may say, “But ought I not to have misgivings when I find my spirit and the state of my mind so contrary to that which befits a Christian?” That you ought to judge yourself, and be humbled before your Father about these things, is most true; BUT it is in no wise true that your righteousness and acceptance with God. depend upon yourself, or are measured by your condition or conduct. To have such a thought in the mind is really to suppose that you could be in the favor of your Father by being worthy of that favor in yourself. It is simply self-righteousness.”

  556. Brad, I feel for you, that could be me talking. I’m sure many others here empathise; they’ve been through/go through that stuff.

    Kind of see it that this website, at it’s very least, helps to stem the growing tide of mental health problems prevalent in society (mainly among Christians and the religious perhaps) and at it’s best, points people to the true Gospel of Christ and eternal life through Him, as intended.

    I do wonder if mental asylums aren’t full of people terrorised by false doctrines, loaded with ‘intolerable burdens’ as Jesus described. I’ve always assumed those burdens were emotional/psychological.

    Guess it’s no conicidence that since visiting here regularly and also going to Yankee Arnold’s live feed often, my fears have greatly subsided. Was thinking about this just last night; how good that is. But oddly, that thought/realisation caused me to nose-dive into a panic such as you describe above and kept me awake for hours! Probably satan taking his opportunity – he so slippery.

    But, thank God, that hasn’t happened for a good while so it’s getting better. I guess it’s the steadying effects of hearing sound doctrine. We’ve been so loaded down with the other c**p all our lives we’re starved of it.

    Anyway that’s all mainly my emotional reaction to your post; John’s comments above are the meat and I for one appreciate them.

    ‘Playing internet roulette’ – yep, been there, done that. Got the scars to prove it.

  557. What John said
    “Please pray for wisdom and stop playing internet roulette!”

  558. Brad
    False and weak doctrine will affect us and infect us because that is what False teaching does.
    We are all on different levels of growth and there was a point for me coming out of indoctrination of false teaching I needed to shut all down and learn to Trust the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me in Truth and Stop Trying to Learn what I already Know. Simply rejoicing in that I know I am saved and Eternal Life is a present possession and a future hope no matter what.
    My Sins are paid for passed present and future no matter what.
    one of the things for me to get over was some of the same verses i knew that had me bound were same ones to set me free In my Thinking.

    Context, Content , Compare , Conclude

    but there be some that trouble you

    Gal 1:6  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 
    Gal 1:7  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 

    God is not the author of confusion
    1Co 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 

    Study to shew thyself
    A Worker Approved by God
    2Ti 2:14  Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 
    2Ti 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

  559. Brad, the “smoking gun” revelation that you seek is that Christ was raised from the dead.

    Romans 4:25: Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

  560. Brad, from your previous comments, I think you know the truth. I would suggest that you stop letting the devil play “devil’s advocate” with you.

    You said: I was regenerated 7 months ago…… i have been struggling with sin and the only theological position that provides me any comfort right now is grace alone. but there are so many compelling arguments out there to the contrary and now i am just confused and dont know where to turn

    My comment: The reason that grace is the only theological position that provides you any comfort is because that is the only way anyone could ever have any comfort. There are no compelling arguments out there to the contrary. None of them are true.

    Remember this: when you are feeling confused, it is not God’s work. God is not the author of confusion.

    Please pray for wisdom and stop playing internet roulette! I have prayed for you, Brad.

  561. I am very confused i started off thinking i am eternally secure but i dont know i have read many websites with massively varying views and they all seem to make very good points. there are many verses in the bible that seem to teach you must turn from sin to be saved but you guys make good points too im so confused i am just sitting here on my bed void of any happiness or peace i dont want to burn for eternity. if it is by Christ’s sacrifice great but i have been strugggling with sin for months and i cant shake the thoughts that its too late and i should just give up.

    i need help… but i dont know what that help could possiblt be……….

    every time i subscribe in my mind to a certain theological view i keep thinking “but what if i am wrong and still on my way to hell”

    do i have to pay restitutions for past sins? or do i not?

    ITS LIKE THIS GAME OF TOTAL INSANITY WHERE NOTHING SEEMS TO PROVIDE ME COMFORT I HATE THIS I HATE THIS

    WHAT GETS ME TO HEAVEN

    “well you have to turn from your sins”

    “well it’s by faith in Christ alone”

    “it’s by faith inChrist but that faith must be a working faith”

    “you need to turn from your sins and atone for all your past sins”

    “you need to confess your sins and make sure you dont miss any”

    “you need to stop sinning completely, you need to be perfect”

    i was regenerated 7 months ago…… i have been struggling with sin and the only theological position that provides me any comfort right now is grace alone. but there are so many compelling arguments out there to the contrary and now i am just confused and dont know where to turn

    i know all the different positions inside and out but i dont know what to choose!

    i need a smoking gun type revelation here. SOMETHING THAT CAN JUST PROVE TO ME ONCE AND FOR ALL WHAT IS RIGGT!

    THERES LIKE A MILLION DIFFERENT INTERPETATIONS OF A SINGLE VERSE IN THE BIBLE. WHAT THE HECK DO I DO

  562. John, I haven’t really followed sports for a long time, but my husband semi filled me in on the murders and apparent suicide. Only God knows what has happened, and if Aaron ever believed upon Him. Samson committed suicide (along with others) but we know he was commended for his faith. David murdered, and it really was particularly heinous in that this was his friend, and he had his friend’s wife. Yet we know where David is. Satan has blinded their minds I am afraid, or they have been bewitched and are in bondage to a false gospel.

  563. John and Keith, interesting story of Raymond and that episode. Very realistic account of the Catholic church, the ‘good’ Catholics and the ‘bad’ Catholics (naughty or nice) and the basic underlying ‘truth’ of that church and it is, belong to the church, be active in the church, give to the church, go to mass frequently, confess your sins to man, do good deeds in order to save yourself from more time in purgatory, and pray for the dead (much like your commenter on the suicide). Paul said ‘they’ pray for the dead to rise again. But ‘we’ (believers) know there is only one way, and Jesus has already told them. Jesus is relegated to a second place with His mother somehow the true god of that church. There is a sense of pride in belong to that ‘church’ but later so many of them will find they did wonderful works and cried Lord Lord, but that will never justify them, and by then it will be too late.

  564. Following are three internet comments regarding the apparent suicide of Aaron Hernandez. Each of them contains false doctrine:

    Did he not realize suicide is a one way ticket to hell according to Christianity?

    My comment: This comment is patently false and reflects a view that eternal life is merited by works (in this case avoiding the commission of suicide). Further, there are no two-way tickets to hell.

    I pray for the souls of everyone who has died in this tragedy.

    My comment: praying for people who have died is a waste is time.

    It doesn’t matter if he had the entire New Testament written over his body…He did NOT have the Word of God written in his heart.

    When God saves a great sinner (like me) He puts His Spirit within you and then you have an entirely new outlook on the vanity of the things of this world and you become a new creature with your heart set on heavenly things and you would not, nor could you ever come to kill yourself no matter how dire your circumstances may be.

    You would share the mercy of God via His gospel of salvation with whomever you could until the very day you die or until Christ comes.

    Very sadly, this guy died unsaved.

    My comment: This is just more self-righteousness from someone who presumes to judge another person’s eternal state.

  565. What’s wrong with the 1984 NIV? Is one modern translation not enough? No, they also need the the NLT, the Life Confusion Bible, gender neutral verions, and the Mess.

  566. The Life Recovery Bible , based on NLT and NIV as far gone from Truth as those two versions are Yet there still is enough Truth in them for a soul to be without excuse BUT not an excuse to keep using them.

    God is not in the recovery business , God starts all over again with a Brand New Creation a New Nature . God declares the Old Nature Dead in Trespasses and sin worthless..
    If the apostle Paul was to offers to help paint the walls of your house he would show up with bulldozers and heavy machinery to start all over again at the foundation’s. That’s How the Word of God does recovery

  567. I saw this on Facebook today:

    “The Life Recovery Bible is today’s #1-selling recovery Bible and is based on the 12-step recovery model. It was created by two of today’s leading recovery experts, David Stoop, Ph.D., and Stephen Arterburn, M.Ed., to lead readers to the source of true healing—God himself”.

    My comment: What’s wrong with the KJV?

  568. This was not on the internet, but on the TV show “Everyone Loves Raymond.” The entire episode was about why Raymond wasn’t going to Catholic Mass. The “comedic drama” came when Raymond’s father told Raymond’s children that Raymond was going to hell because he wasn’t going to mass. Raymond’s wife asks him if he is still Catholic, and Raymond replies something to the effect of “nobody outgrows being a Catholic.”

    Following is a synopsis of that episode, from Wikipedia:

    Ray does not want to go to church, and his entire family is disappointed. When Ally makes a picture of him in hell, because of skipping church, he decides to start going to the church regularly to make his father happy. He then realizes that his dad is a usher who never really sits through the mass.

    My comment: Sad, abject denial of the gospel.

  569. Keith, I think so too – Catholicism and watered down Catholicism, both aberrant.

  570. John, I agree that a believer becomes a member of the universal church at the moment he or she believes the gospel. And, contrary to the assertion of the poster you mentioned, it is becoming less and less important in which church one seeks this “full strength Christianity” as the poster understands it, since he or she likely partakes of the same aberrant doctrine whether it is found in the Catholic Church or some Protestant denomination, just maybe in a different form.

  571. I came across this little “gem” today:

    Note: I am not against people seeking God in other Christian churches. I am a former Protestant myself. But if you want “full strength Christianity” and not a watered down or muddled version of Christianity, you must seek Him in His Catholic Church.

    My comment: a believer becomes a member of the universal church at the moment of belief. There is no “muddled version” of Christianity, but there is plenty of false doctrine being promulgated and perpetuated by “churchianity,” including the Catholic Church.

  572. Keith, agree. Sproul is bad news.

  573. Today I read the following comment in response to a Ligonier (R.C. Sproul) “Ministries” article entitled “What do Americans believe about God, salvation, and the Bible?”:

    OUR GOAL HAS A CHRISTIAN IS GO TO HEAVEN.

    My comment: Heaven is not a goal but a gift which is immediately given to all who place their faith in Christ for eternal life (Romans 6:23).

  574. John, these kinds of comments are straight out of the mouth of the accuser of the brethren. I had one use this portion from James, “I’ll show you my faith by my works”. I marveled that he could not see his quick anger, his accusations towards others, his lack of humility. If I was looking for faith by his works, he’d be in trouble.

    I wish they would learn to look at the book of James in its entirety, and understand who this is addressed to and why…

  575. Daniel, I had a Carbon Monoxide detector that was constantly doing that until I moved it to a different outlet in the same room. I pray it’s just an error like that.

  576. Here is one from today, under the monicker of “idon’tknow:”

    Wrong. Either your actions show you are a Christian, or they don’t…

    After someone posted that it was by faith, not of works, “idon’tknow” followed up with:

    Faith without works is dead…

    My comment: “idon’tknow” doesn’t seem to know (the gospel).

  577. One from today, in response to an article about the senseless killing of a hippopotamus at a zoo in El Salvador:

    I hope the animals that did this realize that God is not so forgiving of this type of sin…

    My comment: God is just as forgiving of this type of sin as He is any other type of sin. One is either forgiven of all of his sins or none of them.

  578. Daniel, I have prayed for God’s protection for you and your family, and for you to not be frightened.

  579. Aye guys. I’m not sure what happened but please pray for me and my family. Our CO Alarm was making beeping at times for the past two days.
    I remember reading its warning saying something like ” ACTIVATION OF YOUR CO ALARM INDICATES THE PRESENCE OF CARBON MONOXIDE WHICH CAN KILL YOU.”
    I’m Frightened.
    My faith in the lord can waver at times and this is one of them.

  580. Following is an exchange of comments I read today:

    First commenter: I love Jesus. _______ does NOT love Jesus. He loves himself and this world. Worldly people will NEVER enter the kingdom of God. That’s the whole reason Jesus came, to teach us how to enter the Kingdom. Amen!

    Second commenter: Glad you are a believer but as a believer you should know that by accepting Jesus even the worldly are saved. And for the record that is without exception.

    First commenter: Yes, if they believe in Jesus and that He IS the true living son of God! If they believe that, then it doesn’t matter how worldly they are…IF THEY REPENT!

    Entering the kingdom is something that happens during meditation. Those that think about the world, money, tasks, work, kids, etc…can never enter it.

    My comment: you can’t make this stuff up. The first commenter appears to believe something, but it does not appear to be the gospel of Jesus Christ. By his criteria, no one would ever get into heaven.

    The second commenter was correct.

  581. RAS, never heard this one. Sounds like a good one to avoid.

  582. I want to warn of a very strange theology I encountered (see Nov 2016 comments for background). Not sure what it is called maybe “Death to Life” theology. Death to life is a Biblical concept it is the truth about believing in Christ for life but there is much more to this theology as I found out through conversations with one persistent (and I mean persistent), cunning, adherent.

    I mentioned in November that this propagator is articulate and prolific and seemed to hold some clout with less mature believers. This past week, to my surprise and delight, some other posters began confronting him with his errors (more on them later) and they filled me in on his history of causing divisions on this particular board. He pushed back, very cleverly rebuking and blessing us in each response. He showed he had a working knowledge of scripture (so does Satan) and cunningly disguised the fact that his definitions of death, sin and justice among others were different than the rest of us. He would post scripture changing verb tenses; he would equivocate and inter weave words. He would scorn others for inferring from scripture while his whole theology is based on inference (of course if we equivocate and inter weave words it’s easy to deceive even ourselves).

    Errors: He does not sin now and the only sin he was guilty of was unbelief. Israel? now they were sinners, unless they kept the law perfectly (and some did he claims). Of course keeping the law does not give life he says (Free Grace bend).Man is basically good, maybe a little naughty and telling others that Christ died for their sins is an error. Christ died to give life to dead gentiles who have one sin (idolatry/unbelief) and dead Jews who have many (see they were under law).

    I am a little shaken (maybe more than a little) by this encounter. I was encouraged by the push back of others. Did I mention that this guy is persistent? I feel like I have encountered demons.

  583. Holly, yes. So many litmus tests, arranged around the test givers’ individualized versions of self-righteousness.

  584. So true John…

    I’ve watched and been saddened to see similar false statements…

    “If you voted, you are a part of this world and you are not saved”…

    “If you didn’t vote, you are not saved”…

    “If you voted for ____________, you are not saved”…

    “So and so (in politics) IS a Christian because __________ (followed with a false example of what being born again includes).

    “So and so (in politics) IS NOT a Christian because __________ (followed with a false example of what that person does not ‘prove’ as being a ‘true’ born again person).

    I kind of reflect back to Daniel and think on how some of these people might have judged and related to Nebudchadnezzar.

  585. One from a comment to an article in today’s New York Times:

    The basic tenet of Christianity is that someone died on the cross for everyone. Anyone who voted for _______ is not a Christian.

    My comment: Christ died for our sins and was raised from the dead. It wasn’t just “someone.”

    Further, God transcends politics. This partisan version of works salvation is just as insidious as any other form of works salvation. This comment is, in and of itself, a denial of Christ.

  586. Ben – obviously justified men can be barren and unfruitful (lacking works) – 2 Pet 1:5-9. In every epistle we see the believers at some point being instructed regarded not only their lack of works but what they need to do in order to walk in the Spirit.

  587. Ben, the quote that you provided is basic Lordship “salvation.” It is similar to “man is saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.”

  588. “Justification is not by works, but no justified man is without them”.

  589. RAS – I love how the Word continues to feed us or give us seed to sow. I am pretribulational and dispensational but not hyper which is another thing altogether. All we can do is lay the Word out and pray they might hear. Thankful something I shared from His Word helped. God bless.

  590. Jason, agree. Truth on the internet is rare, just as it is in “churches.”

  591. The internet is full of hard fruits that believe in:
    flat earth
    holocaust hoax
    hollow earth
    Oswald was innocent
    moon landing faked
    CERN opens door to abyss / black hole , demons unleashed
    firmament found in Antarctica
    government hiding extraterrestrials
    hell at earth’s core
    9/11 inside job

    And even if they bring the gospel, their testimony is in shreds. Alex Jones of Infowars is a case in point. Truth on the internet is rare.

  592. Thanks Holly
    The conversation has continued. I believe he has never really thought this through and now his pride is keeping him from admitting that Paul said (Rom 4:15) for where there is no law there is no transgression and (Rom 5:14) according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam. He has set Rom 5:13 as his fortress and is/has been convinced that law always means the Mosaic Law. I think it is for pride and fear of being wrong that he throws these barbs that loosely hint that the gospel I am teaching is the same as Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and other apostates.

    I believe he is using the KJV and he is some sort of dispensational, maybe hyper. By reading his other comments I can see that he is strongly pre-tribulational. He is also a Pelagian, denying any sin nature but only sin choice and he counts all sin (gentile sin) as idolatry and Adam’s sin was idolatry (some truth to that) not a transgressing of a commandment (no truth to that). He seems to be Free Grace yet he believes that saying Jesus paid the penalty for sin leads to works salvation (law keeping).

    Anyway thanks for the encouragement and link to your article. I have read it and it is wonderful. The Job quote is quite useful in this debate. I must say again that this conversation with him has given me a greater appreciation for the integrity of scripture and a deeper understanding of our guilt and Jesus’ sacrifice as the spotless Lamb of God.
    Thank you all

  593. John, that’s pretty typical that they accuse us of licentiousness, cheap or ‘greasy’ grace, or call us antinomians. I don’t remember who it was here that brought up this portion from Romans 3, but it appears that Paul and the others were accused of the same thing.

    7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
    8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

  594. RAS – interesting conversation. Job says that Adam hid his transgression. The Gentiles are said to be without the law, yet have the law written on their heart. Which law since there were many Gentiles besides Adam, Abraham wasn’t even a Jew, nor Isaac. I wonder which Bible translation he uses, in some of them Hosea says Adam broke the covenant. Maybe your friend is also not dispensational? Anyways, keep doing what you’re doing, using His Word, they need it. Awhile back Jack and John reposted this article I wrote regarding the law, mainly it’s just a list with Bible verses, maybe something might nudge you if you take a look.

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/07/06/tell-me-those-of-you-who-desire-to-be-under-the-law-do-you-not-hear-the-law/

  595. Thanks Keith
    I was unable (in the discussion) to use the OT or Jesus’ teachings since Israel was under the law. I did cite Rom 3:19 and 4:15, 5:14 which speaks of transgression but it was unconvincing to the individual I was speaking with. I am loving studying this subject deeper.

  596. RAS, if you have not considered them already, here are some passages which I think show that unbelievers are under the guilt of the law unless and until they believe the Gospel.

    Jeremiah 31:29-30: “In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge”.

    Jeremiah 31:34: “And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more”.

    Matthew 5:21-22 and 5:27-30 teach that the law heaps condemnation on those who attempt to justify themselves before God by keeping it, which is the condition of the unbeliever.

    Romans 3:19: “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God”.

    Matt. 5:18 states, “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled”. I think the fulfillment of this is at the Great White Throne judgment, where those who rejected the Gospel are judged according to the law (their works) in Rev. 20:12:

    “And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books”. Note that this takes place right before the old heavens and earth pass away and the new heavens and the new earth are created in chapter 21.

  597. Here is one from today:

    Evangelicals believe Jesus dies for your sins so you can pretty much do what you want in this life. Kind of like a get out of jail free card. There are people sitting in prison who would love this arrangement.

    My comment:

    This commenter is suggesting that Evangelicals believe that Jesus died for our sins SO that we can sin. We were already able to do that. Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead SO that we could have eternal life.

    Those who understand and believe the gospel know that behavior has no relevance in whether or not someone has eternal life. Rather, they know that whoever has believed in Jesus as Savior has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.

    This “arrangement,” also known as God’s plan of salvation, is available to everyone, including those in prison.

  598. RAS, you are not teaching a false legalistic gospel.

  599. Thanks John
    I suppose it’s not necessary to believe in imputed sin to be saved. I think it is strange to deny that by one man’s transgression (Adam) death and guilt came to all men while accepting that by One Man’s death (Jesus Christ) life and imputed righteousness (justification) is given to those who believe.

    I agree that Adam did not have everlasting life when he was created but he also had no guilt. There was no death but there was the capacity to die, hence the commandment. Both death and guilt are from Adam. Both life and righteousness are from Christ. The position of this fellow is that only death is from Adam, not guilt. Guilt is our own but our guilt is not legal because we were never under law therefore no penalty—just death. He can’t justify getting rid of justification but he cannot tell me what it for if sin does not carry legal guilt.

    The guy is free to have his opinion but I was in the middle of witnessing to another and he basically told the other guy that I was teaching a false “legalism” gospel by saying Jesus paid the penalty for sin. Otherwise I would have let him think he was wise in his own estimation. Anyway it was a first for me.

  600. RAS, I know of people who do not believe in imputed sin who believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. However, I think they still believe that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins (our personal sins, not the guilt of Adam’s sin imputed to us).

    The Bible is replete with passages regarding sin against God, prior to the advent of the Mosaic Law.

    It is useful to look at Romans 5:12, and Romans 5:18-21 apart from the parenthetical break in Romans 5:13-17.

    [12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    [18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    [19] For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    [20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
    [21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    The parenthetical Romans 5:13-17:

    [13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    [14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    [15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    [16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    [17] For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

    I understand it as follows:

    Adam did not have eternal life when he was created. If he had ever had eternal life, he could not have lost it.

    He had life, which he lost when he sinned. All descendants of Adam lack eternal life and are sinners under a death sentence – both physical and spiritual. Adam, once he sinned, and all of his descendants, need the life of Christ, which is received by grace, through faith in Christ.

    I am also aware of others who hold that Christ did not die to pay the penalty for our sins. I think that this view is wrong, and that scripture clearly teaches that Jesus atoned (paid the penalty) for our sins.

    Romans 4:24-25:

    [24] But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
    [25] Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

    Romans 5:11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

    1 Corinthians 15:3: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

  601. For the past week I have been engaging with two individuals through the internet. The first one claims to be a new Christian, a member of the RCC. Of course his gospel is that of the RCC i.e. that justification is a process and that process is through the RCC. I explained the gospel to him; that Jesus paid the penalty for sin on the cross that that those who believe in Him for everlasting life are justified, will not into judgment and are gifted everlasting life the moment of faith. This conversation continued with us going through scripture (John, Romans, and James etc). He seem to start to understand when I pointed out that Jam 2:24 was talking about two different justifications, one by faith before God and one by works before men and that Jam 2:21,25 showed that justification happens in an instance.

    Then the second individual joined the conversation and he took exception to the word “penalty” for sin. He denies imputed sin and therefore a penalty for sin. The sum of his argument is that Christ died to give life to the dead not to pay a penalty, Adam was not under the law, he himself was never under the law so neither he nor Adam bore guilt they we simply dead until being given life.

    This conversation centered in Romans 5 and Genesis 2-3. He did not deny the cross or the need for life or claim to be sinless but he was denying guilt in Adam’s transgression because neither he nor Adam was under the law. He claims that “And the Lord God commanded the man, saying” (Gen 2:16-17) was “instructional” not a commandment or law because the only law is the law of Moses and sin is not imputed where there is no law.

    Now first of all I believe this person is wrong. He could not explain why justification was needed if death was the only thing separating sinners from God. He could not explain how by one man came death but not guilt yet by One Man come life and righteousness. He could not see that laws change while God’s standard remains the same. He said that my position made Rom 5:12 a lie. What I fear, and why I kept at him and will keep at him is that this individual seems to hold some clout with many of the posters at this particular site as an authority. This was evident in many of his responses to me. He claimed “I only express to you what the scripture actually says” and tried to mire the conversation in Greek and the rules of grammar. When scholarship was used to prove him wrong he claimed the scholarship was based on eisegesis and not a clear reading of the scripture. He called me a legalist, a baby Christian in danger of going the way of the RCC, JW’s, Mormons and Word of Faith teachers. He said I was in danger of wanting to become God. Now as silly as those things sound they were mixed in throughout his responses with reasoning (faulty reasoning) that could make it seem reasonable to many who see the truths he proclaims yet miss his errors.

    Why am I bothering any of you with this? Well I’m not sure but it’s not for my glory or brains (a small 3 pounder). I guess it’s because this is the first time that I can recall ever seriously engaging with person who firmly denies imputed sin yet claims to believe in salvation by grace through faith alone. I have now heard the argument, seen the proof text. I am processing what took place and this is my favorite site to do so.

    thanks for listening.

  602. Here is one from today, in response to someone who wrote that both Islam and Mormonism were of the devil:

    We are all entitled to our opinions but before saying BOTH of those religions are of the devil you might want to take a look at the day to day actions of mormons. To me all of their morals and actions are christ-like in all of the catholic & christian views of a God. They’re some of the nicest, most selfless & giving people I know. They give so much to not only Americans but other countries as well. If thats being of the devil then you’ve set your bar of being christ-like at an unreachable height.

    My comment: The writer of this comment appears to believe that works qualify someone for eternal life.

  603. Holly, thanks for the link to the Bonhoeffer article.

    I thought I remembered Metaxas as having been the author of the Bonhoeffer book.

  604. Eric Metaxas wrote the book about Bonhoeffer. I address him in this article. His pastor is (or was) Tim Keller. He spoke at the presidential breakfast years ago and was appointed to Breakpoint when Chuck Colson died. Haven’t followed him, but I did confront him when he came to Scottsdale years ago about Bonhoeffer’s denial of a literal, physical resurrection of Christ. He said it was an ‘internet rumor’ after he looked back at his Alliance Defense Fund buddy.

    https://redeemingmoments.com/2014/07/14/dietrich-bonhoeffer-should-he-be-quoted-by-christians/

  605. Following is an excerpt from a reader comment to the Metaxas article:

    The ‘church’ is not a denomination, it is the group of followers who believe Christ is the son of the one true God, believe he sacrificed himself for forgiveness of sins and in whom we continue to trust in for salvation and to help us live our lives.

    My comment: Not true. The church is the group of people who have believed in Christ alone as Savior. This does not require “following” Jesus in discipleship, continuing to trust in Him for salvation, nor trusting in Him to help us live our lives.

  606. I read an article today entitled “Americans & Evangelicals Misunderdtand Basic Christian Doctrines – Fail Theology 101,” by Eric Metaxas.

    While the article had some good points, Metaxas said: “Folks, if we hope to preserve not only evangelical faith in the generations to come, but also the “mere Christianity” expressed in the Nicene Creed, we have to take theological instruction seriously again.”

    My comment: the Nicene Creed fails to mention that Christ died for our sins. Perhaps that is why so many people in”churchianity” are trying to save themselves by “turning from sins,” “putting Christ on the throne of their life,” and so on.

  607. They usually get that thinking about fruit in not understanding John 15. Obviously they have not read 2 Pet 1:5-9 .

    5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

  608. John, Yes, fruit is not an accurate indicator of whether or not one is saved. Many devout Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc, bear “fruit”, but are clearly not saved. Many philanthropists, humanitarianists, the Boys/Girls Scouts of America, and even some atheists bear good “fruit”, but are clearly unsaved.

  609. And, here is another from the same thread:

    Or……If you are not a fruitful you’re condemned

    My comment: The Bible does not teach that being “fruitful” is required to have, or to prove that one has, eternal life.

  610. Here is one from today:

    God has chosen his elect. read the Gospel of John. those whom he has called come to him joyfully. if someone backs away, they were never called! also, we know His true church is invisible hidden within the secular church. so when numbers are mentioned know they cannot be

    My comment: God did not choose who would receive eternal life and who would not. Also, the Bible does not teach that if someone “backs away,” they were never called.

    The Bible teaches that anyone who believes in Jesus as Savior has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.

  611. Holly, Sure be my guest.

  612. Thank you William, it’s not my paper, just a short paragraph, I separated his writings into another, but I’ll save those on it, thank you, shall I source you?

  613. William, the Southern Baptist Covention has been steeped in Calvinism since it’s very inception.

    The revered “prince of preachers” Charles Spurgeon was a dyed in the wool Calvinist.

    Much of what the world knows as “Christianity” is warmed over Galatianism, codified into “church” doctrine throughout the ages by such people as Augustine, Calvin, Spurgeon, MacArthur, amd legions of their predecessors and successors.

  614. Holly, Thank you. Good paper on Augustine. I wanted to add that Augustine had 2 mistresses during his early years and had one illegitimate child, named Adeodatus from the first mistress – in the book, “Augustine of Hippo” by Peter Brown, page 39, 1967. Augustine later dumped his first mistress and took another – “St. Augustine of Hippo” – Gerald Bonner, pg. 71, Philadelphia, The Westminster Press, 1963.

    Also originated the following heresies:

    1) “Purgatory” in the book, “Immortality” by Loraine Boettner, pg. 135, 1956.
    2) Taught that sex was the great sin behind human misery – Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology on “Augustinianism”, page 58,
    3) Taught that sex was always shameful – City of God – On Original Sin – 2.42.
    4) Taught that sex was sinful if not for the purpose of procreation – City of God – On the Morals of the Manichaeans – 18.65.
    5) Advocated the use of force/violence in dealing with “heretics” who did not agree with him – City of God, “On the Correction of the Donatists” – book 4, section 17, section 18, book 5, section 19, 20, book 6, section 21-24. His advocating the use of force is responsible for the genocide of millions of Bible believing Christians during the Inquisition. See also Philip Schaff, “History of the Christian Church” vol. 3, page 144, 1910.
    6) Taught that the “Virgin Mary” was sinless and promoted her worship – “History of the Christian Church” volume 3, page 1021, 1910 by Philip Schaff.

    7) Intercession of the saints – “History of the Christian Church” , pages 434-435, 441.

    8) The use of relics and the miracles attributed to them – “History of the Christian Church” – pgs. 459-460

    Augustine states the following regarding the use of force/violence:

    “Why, therefore, should not the Church use force in compelling her lost sons to return, if the lost ones compelled others to their destruction?……” in City of God, “On the Correction of the Donatists” – chapter 6, section 23.

    Since Calvin idolized Augustine and was his ardent admirer, Calvin emulated his master’s ways when he ruled the city of Geneva with an iron fist imposing and enforcing his Calvinist doctrine through floggings, imprisonments, banishments, torture, and burnings at the stake. Every aspect of life in Geneva was under his tight control including the way women wore their hair, jewelry, the number of dishes allowed in the kitchen, etc. Calvin was a control freak.

    Augustine also states the following regarding the Catholic Church:

    “The Catholic Church alone is the body of Christ, of which He is the head and Saviour of His body. Outside this body the Holy Spirit giveth life to no one, seeing that, as the apostle says himself, “The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us;” but he is not a partaker of the divine love who is the enemy of unity. Therefore they have not the Holy Ghost who are outside the Church.” – Augustine in City of God, “On the Correction of the Donatists”, 11.50.

    Well, folks there you have it, Augustine who is the father of Roman Catholicism and Calvinism, often praised by many Calvinists.

  615. I started a paper on Augustine, I start a lot on a lot of people, it keeps me from having to store it in my head 🙂

    Anyways, please note the last one on the short list. His ‘conversion’.

    Saint Augustine (of Hippo) November 13, 354 – August 28, 430 ACE
    • “Christian” Neoplatonist (oxymoron), philosophy, dynamic panentheism 1
    • Father of Calvinism-doctrines of grace,
    • Doctor of the RC Church, Roman Catholic Bishop, North African Bishop
    • Foremost Amillennialist (prior to Augustine, considered heresy)4. Arbitrarily made the millennium, non-literal.5
    • Philosopher, (Romanized Berber Philosopher2), Medieval Philosophy1, Greek Philosphy1,
    • Thought to be the true originator of “Calvinism”.
    • Idolized by Calvin who cites him about 1000 times in his “Institutes of Christianity”
    • AKA Augustine of Hippo, Augustin(no ‘e’), Aurelius Augustinus, St. Augustine
    • Manichaeist , studied Manichaeism for about nine years.
    • Monk who formed the Monastery in Hippo in Northern Africa. Took on the Monastic way of life before his ‘conversion’.
    • Brought a non-literal spiritualistic approach to interpreting Scriptures. 5
    • Replacement theology, making the church Israel, said “Jewish people should be treated unmercifully”. 5, 13
    • Augustine’s teachings were systemized by Calvin
    • Not saved by the hearing of the gospel, but two stories, and a child’s voice, that kept repeating (in French) ‘take up and read’. Neither stories, nor the two verses in the Bible (he read at the end), had anything to do with the gospel. More of Ouija board Bible understanding. 3, 12

    It just goes to show that Satan who blinds the mind of these from the gospel is their god. He will save them instead by pre-regeneration (the gift of faith enabling them to believe the truth, thereby diminishing the power of the gospel to zilch).

  616. William – glad you are well, food poisoning is just awful, would not ever like to repeat that. God bless you.

  617. Phil R, Thanks for your prayers for me. I’m feeling much better now. Praise God!

  618. John and RAS, Well said!

  619. Also William, the Calvinist interpretation of Rom 9:20-21 follows from their interpretation of Rom 9:13 in which individuals are seen and not nations and love and hate are seen as heaven and hell. We can’t be having Christians supporting Israel the harlot…therefore Jacob represents the elect (the Church now) and Esau represents all those Christ chose not to die for :Simple deduction. Yuck!

  620. William, the Augustinians/Calvinists have it all wrong. If God had not been willing to save us, he would be a different god. He would not have all of the attributes that the God of the Bible possesses.

    The Calvinist god is not the God of the Bible.

  621. It looks like Augustine was the one who originated Calvinism’s “gift of faith” heresy that John Calvin later copied which is still a major part of Calvinism’s perverse doctrines. Monkey see, monkey do on the part of Calvin and all Calvinists.

    From Augustine’s shoddy book, “City of God” – “ON THE PREDESTINATION OF THE SAINTS and ON THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE, book 1, chapter 16:

    Chap. 16.—Why the gift of faith is not given to all.

    “Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God’s gift; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to some, while to some it is not given. But why it is not given to all ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glorieth may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in the Lord. But why He delivers one rather than another,—” His judgments are unsearchable, and His ways past finding out.” For it is better in this case for us to hear or to say, “O man, who art thou that repliest against God?” than to dare to speak as if we could know what He has chosen to be kept secret. Since, moreover, He could not will anything unrighteous.”

    Notice how Augustine throws in Romans 9:20-21 at the end part of his defense? Modern day Calvinists always throw in Romans 9:20-21 in defense of their position, but their eisegesis will always be refuted with 2 Timothy 2:20-22, Jeremiah 5:18-19, Jeremiah 16:10-12.

  622. Thanks William, I pray you will fully recover.

  623. Phil, The albacore tuna that I ate was fresh caught in the ocean and I ate it raw, sashimi style, but it was delicious. Eating raw fish can sometimes be risky as the bacteria or whatever is in there is microscopic. I’ve been eating raw tuna fish for 33 years, but this is the first time this happened to me. I never had a problem with canned tuna before when I make tuna sandwiches.

  624. William, I might also add Baptists and MacArthurism.

    Also, was the food poisoning from the canned Albacore tuna or the tuna packs? I’m going camping at the end of the month and i like these small tuna and salmon packs that don’t require refrigeration unless they are opened.

  625. John, good post, also.

  626. Keith, Well said. Roman Catholicism is the mother of all whores – Revelation 17:5 who is drunk from the blood of all the martyred Christians of the Inquisition – Revelation 17:6. Calvinism/Lordship Salvation, Arminianism/Lordship Salvation, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witness doctrine, Pentacostalism, Lutheranism, Methodism, and Presbyterianism, are all the whore daughters as they all deny eternal security/once saved always saved. Satan basically repackages the same thing under different names.

  627. Phil R. Thanks so much for your prayers for me. I am pretty much recovered after taking the antibiotics. It was a pretty bad case as I literally lost 8 pounds in one week! I was going to the restroom about 20 times a day!

  628. Yes, those are very interesting parallels between Roman Catholicism and Calvinism. If a person doesn’t like RC, no problem, Satan has something else for them.

  629. William, my prayers are with you that God will help you to recover from this food poisoning. It is encouraging to read your above post on the false doctrines of Calvinism. I hope this informative post is a sign of your recovery.

  630. William, your explanations of what “election” and “predestination” really mean, when taken in their proper context, are very helpful.

    And, you are right that Calvinism and Roman Catholicism share common roots.

    According to the “Grace Chart” that accompanies “The Gospel” booklet by Ron Shea:

    “Bilateral contract salvation” and the “Perseverance of the Saints” are two separate but interrelated doctrines within a complex theological system of salvation by works, which relies, at its core, on redefining the word “grace” as some sort of mystical empowering substance. This theological system is set forth in Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, Part 1 of the Second Part, Questions 109-114, “Treatise of Grace,” a 12th century manifesto of Roman Catholic Theology. In Protestantism, it is known as “Reformed Theology” or “Calvinism”.

  631. The following quotes come from eminent Calvinist apologists that show the connection that Calvinism has with Roman Catholicism.

    1) Richard Muller – “John Calvin was part of a long line of thinkers who based their doctrine of predestination on the Augustinian interpretation of St. Paul.” In his book, “Christ and the decree” 1988 page 22.

    2) Alvin Baker – “There is hardly a doctrine of Calvin that does not bear the marks of Augustine’s influence.” In his book, “Berkouwer’s Doctrine of Election: Balance or Imbalance” pg 25. 1981,

    3) Gregg C. Singer – “The main features of Calvin’s theology are found in the writings of St. Augustine to such an extent that many theologians regard Calvinism as a more full developed form of Augustinianism.” In his book, “John Calvin: His roots and fruits” , 1989, pg. viii

    4) B.B. Warfield – “The system of doctrine taught by Calvin is just the Augustinianism common to the whole body of the Reformers.” In his book, “Calvin and Augustine”, page 22, 1956.

    5) Loraine Boettner – “Calvin and Augustine easily rank as the two outstanding systematic expounders of the Christian system since Saint Paul”. In his book, “The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination” page 405, 1932.

    6) John Calvin himself – “Augustine is so wholly with me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings” In the book, “Calvin’s Calvinism:”A treatise on the eternal predestination of God” written by John Calvin in 1552, Translated by Henry Cole, page 38, 1987.

    7) B.B, Warfield – “Augustine is in a true sense the founder of Roman Catholicism” In his book, “Calvin and Augustine” page 313, 1956,

    It was Augustine who invented his own twisted interpretation of “PREDESTINATION/UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION” in his book, “City of God”. Augustine states,”That owing to one man all pass into condemnation who are born of Adam unless they are born again in Christ, even as He has appointed them to be regenerated, before they die in the body, whom He predestinated to everlasting life, as the most merciful bestower of grace; whilst to those whom He has predestinated to eternal death, He is also the most righteous awarder of punishment.” – “The City of God” On the Soul and its Origin – 4.16

    Again, it was Augustine who invented “IRRESISTIBLE GRACE” in his book, “The City of God” – “On the predestination of the saints” -7, 8, 16.

    Augustine errantly believed that the will of God became the cause of all things – In his book, “City of God” – under “Enchiridion” – 95, 96, 100, 101.

    Augustine errantly believed “that no man is saved unless God wills it.” In his book, “City of God” – under Enchiridion – 103.

    It was Augustine who invented what is now known today as the 5th point of Calvinism which is “PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS”:

    Augustine states, “We, then, call men elected, and Christ’s disciple’s, and God’s children, because they are to be so called whom, being regenerated, we see to live piously; but they are then truly what they are called IF they shall abide in that on account of which they are so called.” In “City of God” – “On Rebuke and Grace” – 22.

    Augustine states, “It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children–whom He has regenerated in Christ–to whom He has given FAITH, hope, love, God does not give PERSEVERANCE also.” – In his book, “City of God” – “On Rebuke and Grace” – 18.

    Augustine states, “But they who fall and perish have never been in the number of the predestinated.” – In his book, “City of God” – “On Rebuke and Grace” – 36.

    Augustine errantly believed that salvation can be lost and he taught that only those who are regenerated by God and PERSEVERE, or in those that have lost their salvation that only after they “persevere” that
    the grace of regeneration is restored, are finally saved. – In his book, “The History of Christian Doctrines” – Louis Berkhof – page 136, 1937.

    Now, does not all of the above sound like what Calvinism currently teaches?

    Augustine’s version of “predestination”, “irresistible grace”, and “perseverance of the saints” sounds identical to what MacArthur, Piper, and what Sproul teaches which are 3 of the biggest names in Calvinism/Lordship Salvation today. Are they not? Is that not what Calvinism teaches? Calvin’s idol was definitely Augustine.

    The Bible teaches that God “predestinated” people who have willingly believed on Christ and His finished work on the cross and are saved to be transformed into immortal physical bodies of FLESH/BONE at the Rapture when Jesus returns which is a future aspect – 1 Cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:16-17 These will be eternal physical bodies just like Jesus resurrected physical body described in Luke 24:39, 1 John 3:2. Christ’s resurrected physical body is the prototype of what all saved Christians will be transformed into at the Rapture.

    The Biblical passages on predestination like Ephesians 1:4-5, 11, and Romans 8:29-30 all need to be read in light of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. and 1 John 3:2. What Augustine and Calvin did was take Ephesians 1:4-5, 1:11, and Romans 8:29-30 in ISOLATION and eisegeted those texts and read their “theology” into the text falsely teaching that God “picked and choosed” whom He saves in eternity past and whom He damns in eternity past and that there is nothing man can do about it. Is this not identical to the Islamic belief of FATALISM? Is it not identical to Stoicism’s belief in determinism? Are these not all the same thing, but under different names?

    In regards to true Biblical election, God elected those that are already saved for SERVICE/MINISTRY. God “elected” Moses to lead His people, God “elected” Abraham, God “elected” King David, God “elected” King Solomon after David, God “elected” Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles, God “elected” Simon Peter to be the apostle to the Jews, etc, etc. God did not “elect” people for salvation/damnation in eternity past which Calvinism falsely teaches.

    “Irresistible grace” is refuted with Acts 7:51. The Pharisees and the teachers of the law resisted Jesus in Matthew 12, Mark 3, and the unbelieving Jews resisted Jesus in John 10:33, and John 12:37 despite His miracles/healings in their very presence. Jonah resisted God. The Pharisees accused Jesus of being “demon possessed” and performing exorcisms by the power of Satan. The unbelieving Jews in John10:33 accused Jesus of being only a “mere man” despite His miracles which verified that He was indeed God in human flesh.

    “Perseverance of the saints” which is Augustine’s original twisted concept is also refuted with Scripture. King Solomon did not “persevere” at the end of his life, but became a serial polygamist and demon worshiper – 1 Kings 11. Does that mean that Solomon was “never saved to begin with?” NO.

    Christians who don’t persevere and who even die in that state are still eternally saved.

    John 10:28-29 – 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

    Romans 8:38-39 – 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    2 Timothy 2:13 – 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    Saved Christians are not kept eternally secure because of their own faithfulness which will always be susceptible to faltering and failure, but they are kept secure because of an UNFAILING SAVIOR.

  632. Keith, yeah – based on Sproul’s previous body of work, he doesn’t come across as understanding grace.

  633. Today I saw an article on Facebook entitled, “R.C. Sproul explains why it’s imperative to hold fast to the doctrine of justification by faith alone”. Isn’t that a bit like a prostitute lecturing a group of high school kids on the importance of sexual purity? There is no clearer example of how Calvinists have hijacked the Gospel.

  634. Following is a quote from a CNN political article I read today:

    Christ left room for all to redeem themselves and we should extend the same courtesy, even when it’s difficult — in fact, especially when it’s difficult. The already redeemed don’t need us to remind them about God’s grace, an unearned, unqualified favor available to anyone.

    My comment: no one has ever redeemed himself. This quote completely contradicts itself.

  635. RAS – the article is basically just a compilation by me of His Word, but of course you know that is what is good in it. I am with you, I surely feel as if time is so short, sometimes it seems very peaceful, at other times such turmoil, but looking forward to that day of our gathering together in the clouds to meet Him.

  636. William, praying for you too.

  637. William, I have prayed for your healing and relief from anxiety.

  638. Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, Please continue to pray for me. My condition has gotten worse and is not responding to the meds I’m on. I have not been able to sleep all night and have been praying the whole time and I’m scared.

  639. I tell you, I think it’s very late (Come Lord). I just had an internet conversation (on a secular site) with someone calling them self HumanExtinctionIsTheOnlySolution. After getting past the crazy arguments and digesting the moniker it hit me… wow …that is what the Gospel is all about: Human extinction IS the only solution— human regeneration is the only means and Jesus Christ is the only WAY. The seed was sown…what type of soil? I’ll have to wait to see (not in the Calvinist sense).

  640. Outstanding article you linked to Holly, thanks

  641. Holly,thanks for posting the link to that excellent article.

  642. Praying you feel better William, I surely can relate.

  643. No, we the church are not under any law. Hebrews explains the New Covenant made the first, old, it is decaying, vanishing away. It is obsolete. Now the law was given to Israel through the first prophet Moses. Jesus is our Priest, Prophet and King. Below is an article John and Jack graciously reprinted about the law, not sure how up to date, there is so much on that it would take multiple articles.

    As for ‘no more sacrifice’, there is no more sacrifice, even though those priests stood daily ministering to it, sin had been taken away by the final sacrifice, the Lamb of God, the sacrifice that God promised to provide, Jehovah Jireh. We see it in Abraham’s offering of Isaac. We all willfully sin, probably more often than not in the beginning of our walk and so to say a sacrifice which perfected us forever is being spoken of is just poor interpretation.

    Arminians often read that sacrifice as speaking to a believer (whether Jew or Gentile) that willfully sins. What is spoken of here I believe, is the persecution of Jewish believers who are considering going back under the law, the sacrificial system, the old way, in favor of not suffering at the hands of the non believing Jews. To give into that pressure would be trampling the Son of God underfoot and counting His blood an unholy thing. There would be consequences, both in this life and at the Judgment seat of Christ. Fear because these believers knew better, yet this would be a fall from grace (similar to those in Galatia) and they would be back into bondage. Many of us can relate to times in our lives where we lived in fear for that very reason.

    Here is the link if any want some Bible verses regarding the fulfillment of the law, who it was given to, etc.

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/07/06/tell-me-those-of-you-who-desire-to-be-under-the-law-do-you-not-hear-the-law/

  644. John, one of the big deceptions of Calvinism and Arminianism is that believers no longer have to keep the ceremonial laws or the separation laws but must keep the moral law for salvation. Both Christ (Matt. 5:22 and 28-30) and Paul (Romans 7:7, 3:19, 20) made it clear that the moral law condemns everyone and cannot justify a person before God.

    Also, my prayers for William for a speedy recovery.

  645. Thank you John.

  646. William, I have prayed for you, my friend.

  647. Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, Please pray for me. I just came down with a severe case of food poisoning after eating albacore tuna that was probably contaminated. I’m on antibiotics right now. I appreciate your prayer support. Thanks.

  648. And here is one that is really weird:

    …the Old Testament laws were divided into three categories: moral laws, ceremonial laws, and separation laws. Moral laws are always in force, but Christ’s sacrifice defers the spiritual punishment until death. Ceremonial laws were removed with his sacrifice, and separation laws only apply to the Jewish people.

    My comment: Hogwash! Christians are not under any of the OT law. Christ’s sacrifice does not “defer” spiritual punishment for breaking laws, it removes guilt and punishment for believers.

  649. Here is an interesting tidbit from a women accused of child abuse:

    Her Christian beliefs were the “guiding values” that influenced her behavior when she punished her son on Feb. 3, according to the motion to dismiss filed by her attorney, Greg Bowes…

    She believed she needed to take “strong corrective action” to save her daughter from her son’s harmful behavior, according to the motion to dismiss. Otherwise, her son “would not earn his salvation with God after his death.”

    My comment: Based solely on the quote from the motion to dismiss (the child abuse charge), this woman doesn’t hold any Christian beliefs. No one who holds Christian beliefs would think someone had to earn his own salvation.

  650. Benchap, if people think those things are necessary to have eternal life, then I agree with you.

  651. Yep, that too.

    How does one turn from sins and continue in faithful obedience without believing they are meriting their salvation or seeing that they are contradicting “free gift of eternal life”?

  652. Benchap, me too.

    Plus, it is all Chtistians who will be raptured.

  653. “Many of God’s faithful followers will be protected from the tribulation (Revelation 3:10). And, most importantly, Jesus promises eternal life to all who truly believe, turn from sin and persevere in their faithful obedience: “He who endures to the end shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13).

    Since we know that the handwriting is on the wall, what will we now choose to do?”

    Whenever I see “truly believe” or “true believe” it is almost always followed by a false Gospel.

  654. I’ve seen and heard that one before in local Baptist circles.

    They’ll usually follow your claim with “to turn to Christ you turn away from something (sin)…we’re not teaching works salvation, blah blah blah”.

  655. Here is an excerpt from a comment I read today:

    God already has judged them guilty. Christians just reminds evil doers of God’s wrath & to turn from their wicked ways to his son Christ in obedience to his word for Salvation!

    My comment: If someone isn’t a believer, he stands condemned. But, it is not necessary to turn from wicked ways for eternal salvation. To think one MUST turn from sins in order to gain eternal life is not obedience to God’s word – it is a denial of God’s word.

    Eternal life is a gift, received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

  656. Curtis, good point.

  657. here is a thought to ponder are there any sacrifices under the mosaic Law for willful sins? or practicing sin it is also called ?

  658. socal, your interpretation is consistent with grace.

    I have seen grace believers with several different interpretations, summarized in the comment linked below.

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/11/08/lordship-salvationists-fail-their-own-test/#comment-47322

  659. John,

    I’ve noticed there’s no explanation for Hebrews 10:26 (on this page (at least one that shows up in the search), and I’ve been confronted several times lately as a ‘proof-text’ that one can lose salvation.

    This is my response.:

    In Hebrews 10, the author is contrasting the old sacrifices and the New Sacrifice (Christ). as for v.26, it’s already been explained by v.18:

    17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

    There is no offering for sin if we sin, because the sacrifice for our sin has been pain once and for all, as stated earlier in the context:

    “11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified

    As for v.27 and after, it’s talking about those Jews who were persecuting the original recipients, who no longer had a viable sacrifice for their sin, and were in fact persecuting the One and only Sacrifice left.

    Just in case anyone searches for this verse or Hebrews 10:26-27.

  660. I would prefer that we move on.

  661. I’m not all that into preachers who mumble then yell. It sets off my hyperacuity, and his tone and anger at his flock really hurt me spiritually. If I was in that church I would have walked out and may have written-off his “grace” belief like I have written off Calvinism due to the manners of the Calvinists.

  662. I hear you socal , the next sermon Radke settles down and admits people were having trouble following him . He is loud and goes off yes , but to equate him to Paul Washer is not fair .
    for sometime i didn’t listen to any preaching coming out of indoctrination . I had been beating myself up with religious self effort calling myself worm food being self absorbed in the depravity of man of calvinism.

  663. I tried to listen to one of Radtke’s teachings on 1 John 2, and he was so in the flesh and screaming and pounding about something with the people in his church, because he was berating and browbeating specific issues with “christians” that I had to turn him off and do a brain dump. He sounded like Paul Washer in his indignation.

    I’ll stick with Arnold, Cucuzza and Rokster.

  664. Amen Curtis. I also agree about Charlie Clough.I highly recommend his Bible Framework series and website (224 lessons).

  665. To defend the Gospel Proclaim the Gospel
    as the Holy Spirit leads and given opportunity if i sense a soul is religious I like to ask ” are my sins paid for ? ”
    another one “what is God’s standard for righteousness ?”
    I myself don’t bring up “Lordship salvation ” all souls are natural born legalist Just keep pointing souls to Jesus .finished work
    below is a teaching series by charles clough he is one simple smart cookie
    from that series i learned how to handle a tough question about homosexuality and the gospel of Grace objection “all pagan cultures had sodomy ” call it what it is it is sodomy
    see how the objection is smartly dealt with and move forward with the Gospel of Grace

    Charles Clough
    Not Ashamed Of The Gospel
    http://gracebiblestudies.org/Series.aspx?SeriesId=17

  666. good message on first John
    Pastor Leonard Radtke
    1 John
    Description: #5 – 1 John 2:12-15
    Date: 11/23/1977

    http://www.gracebiblestudies.org/Message.aspx?MessageID=218

  667. SoCal, the gospel itself (along with a good explanation from a source such as “The Gospel” booklet) is the best.

    I think the articles “You Might Be a Lordship Salvationist If…” (Parts 1 and 2) might be helpful.

    I would also be interested in our readers’ thoughts on those things that they have found helpful.

  668. John, can you do (or do you have) a post on what arguments/points you find effective in dealing with those deceived by Lordship Salvation?

  669. Mary
    “I could not get him to separate justification and sanctification, he said its part of the gospel. ”

    Nice catch , that has been my experience as well with pastors who err on the gospel ,they will agree on Gospel up but when pressed it is sanctification by works and are spiritually drunk on another gospel and by using sleight desiring not to be drunk alone on frustrated grace.

    tossed to and fro, by the sleight of men
    Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

  670. Socal, I have some thoughts on 1 John 2. I’d like to expand on the point you made on us knowing Him, vs. Him knowing us.

    3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Finish with vs. 5, keeping his words shows us that the love of God is ‘perfected in us’.

    5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

    In John 8, we are told to ‘continue in His Word.’

    31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    In 1 Pet 2, knowledge is one of the things believers are to add to their faith (vs. 5-6). In 2 Pet 3, it says we need to grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior. I kind of reflect back on Peter being asked by Jesus if he loved him (in John 21). Peter was clean, he failed on some fronts. He denied Him, and He even fell into not walking uprightly about the truth of the gospel. Anyways, I believe ‘knowing’ Him has to do with being in fellowship with Him, and growing in His grace by abiding in Him and continuing in His Word.

  671. Mary, I have prayed that this pastor will not corrupt minds from the simplicity of Christ.

  672. Thanks John, he was saying that a changed life is proof that we are saved, he said someone who just makes a profession of faith, how can you know he is saved, if he does not continue in the faith. I said to him thats the only evidence, i think he has been taught the false faith vs the genuine faith, like MacArthur does. He just could not separate the justification and sanctification. These are lordshippers and I will not sit under their teachings.

    He opens a new church tomorrow morning how sad, how many people will be infected and affected by his false gospel, he thinks god has commissioned him to start this church. Lots say to me they think god is blessing Macarthurs church. At the end of the day, we don’t know if MacArthur is saved, but he certainly is preaching a false gospel and he messes up peoples lives with his poisonous doctrine. You can’t tell them, they just will not listen. Very frustrating…….

  673. fellowship
    ye also may have fellowship
    that ye also may have fellowship with us
    1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
    1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

  674. They try to make a distinction between the “commandments of the Mosaic Law” and the “commandments of Christ”. Obviously without realizing that the entire Bible is Christ.

  675. SoCal, obeying the gospel (believing in Jesus as Savior) is the only obedience required for eternal life. No one obeys His commandments perfectly, so obedience to His commandments cannot be a litmus test for a “true believer.” If it were, everyone would fail.

    Heaven is a perfect place, not a place just for people who are being “pretty good” at keeping His commandments.

    You make a great point that Him knowing us is what is referenced in Matthew 7.

  676. Someone brought up 1 John 2:4 as proof works (keeping commandments) plays a role in salvation:

    “If you say you love God and believe in God but live a life of complete disobedience than you are a liar. According to John. (1 John 2:4)”

    My response:

    “[It] Doesn’t say “complete disobedience”, it says “doesn’t keep His commandments”. Check out 1 John 1:8 and James 2:10. But knowing Christ isn’t a condition of eternal life, CHRIST KNOWING YOU is a condition of eternal life; see Matthew 7:22-23,”

    How do you answer this one?

  677. John, had a conversation where an Anglican said exactly the same thing and couldn’t move past it.

  678. How do you do it without being exhausted? I discuss these things with people who don’t want to hear it and I walk away drained.

  679. Holly, there is a difference between “making progress,” and “not continuing sinning.” Neither are required to have eternal life, nor assurance of eternal life.

  680. Mary, we are sanctified (some call this “positional sanctification”) the moment we believe in Jesus as Savior.

    1 Corinthians 6:11: And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    But, if the pastor with whom you were speaking was referring to the process of being transformed (some people call this “progressive sanctification”), one does not have to believe this will happen in order to receive eternal life. That is because it requires our cooperation. Paul wouldn’t have beseeched us, as brothers and sisters in Christ, to do something that was required to become brothers and sisters in Christ.

    Romans 12:1-2: [1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
    [2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

  681. ‘Should be making progress’ is a whole lot different then not ‘continue sinning’. So did David and Moses lose their salvation when they murdered?

  682. I have just spent the last hour and a half talking to a Baptist pastor who is opening a new church down the road, i thought i could visit it, so I thought I could ring him and ask him where he stands on the gospel and as usual they agree with u that u can’t lose it. I could not get him to separate justification and sanctification, he said its part of the gospel. I told him the only evidence we need is if someone professes to understand the gospel then they are saved. EASY BELIEVISM IS WHAT THEY ARE SILENTLY SCREAMING.

    So he said, so just a profession was enough, I said as long as they are trusting in the finished work of christ. He was horrified, he said just a profession is not enough, i found him so confusing, i told him he was preaching a subtle form of works. Could not see it. He was really saying that we are justified by faith, but sanctification is part of justification, while saying we are saved by faith alone and not by works, I know there is lots of Calvanism and lordship in his current church, so how can I sit under that confusing gospel.

    A very pleasant man to talk to, I told him to re-think his gospel, I don’t think that went down to well. You can see he didn’t want me visiting his church, thought i would cause trouble, he said you must have it out with me and not the people in the church. I told him as a pastor god would hold him accountable for the gospel he is teaching , i said to him I thought, getting the gospel right was the most important thing.

    I came off the phone thinking am I being too picky, you can even doubt your position, so you have to reassure yourself that you are on the right track and be so solid on what you believe…..

  683. Here is an excerpt of a comment from another site:

    …this whole time I could be a sleeping around, lying, stealing, heck even murder someone instead of trying to live a godly life pleasing to Him and still go to heaven? Jesus died for those sins, so as long as I believe, I can continue sinning? Why on earth would I want to live a godly life then? So I can have a few more blessings here and rewards in heaven? How about I live Luke warm so I can have some blessings and still enjoy sin? I don’t want the Holy Spirit in my life guiding me, I don’t want Him to change my ways, but since I believe that he died for my sins, I’m all set for heaven? I SHOULD be making progress in my Christian life but I don’t really have to, right? That’s a gospel everyone wants. Who would turn that down? Why would anyone?

    My comment: Who would turn that down? Lots of people. Based on the commenter’s questions, it is not clear that he understands or believes the gospel. Why would anyone? Because they insist on the futility of trying to save themselves.

  684. I love reading how they all put a different spin on it, but teach exactly the same thing.

    The Catholics point at the protestants as the protestants point at the Catholics and cults. They’re all on the same side.

  685. One more I found today:

    We are steeped in the Western evangelical view of the courtroom metaphor, where God is the judge, we are the wicked, sinful defendant, and Jesus is our rescuer/stand-in/defense attorney. Consider the predominantly Eastern Orthodox metaphor that sin is a disease – we are afflicted with something that we cannot cure ourselves. God’s position, in contrast to an angry judge, is one of a concerned parent. He has the cure and is making it available to us.

    My comment: God’s plan of salvation through Jesus is not a metaphor, either Eastern or Western. Before one believes in Jesus as his Savior, he has no spiritual life. Once one believes in Jesus as Savior, he has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited. This is true, even if a believer’s life never changes in any way in terms of sinning less, or in terms of doing good works.

    Hence, if the commenter intends to mean that the “Eastern Orthodox metaphor” requires one to believe that Jesus is going to “change his life,” it implies that eternal life is received by one allowing Jesus to change his life. This would, by implication, be teaching Lordship “salvation” and justification by works, wherein justification is a process by which our lives are transformed (borrowed wording heavily from Clear Gospel Ministries).

  686. Here are two more that I found today. Both of them seem to share a common theme – that believing in Jesus for eternal life MUST also entail believing that He is going to “clean up” your life. See below:

    1. I think the most loving thing we can say to someone who is trapped in any lifestyle of sin is “God can take that from you, and heal you, and make you truly whole. It won’t be easy, or free of pain, but He will do it! For it is the only way to gain eternal spiritual life.”

    My comment: First, we can’t assume that someone “trapped in any lifestyle of sin” is a non-believer. Second, once a person believes in Jesus as his Savior, he may begin to have victory over sinful patterns in his life. But, this is by no means guaranteed. Therefore, one does not have to believe that Jesus is going to change his life in order to receive eternal life. A person receives eternal life by believing in Jesus as his Savior.

    2. Though we all fall short and are covered by the grace of our Heavenly Father, he still gives His commandments and tells of our sins that we are to repent and turn from or else warns of our destiny. We have two choices, heaven or hell, bible is clear on that. If we don’t warn our brothers and sisters, OUT OF LOVE for them then we’re not being loving. God told the woman at the well, go and sin no more…he states to turn from your evil ways. Jesus was the perfect example of how to live. He faced trials and temptations and overcame them all. He has given us that ability if we just have faith and trust in Him and allow Him to lead us by the one He left with us, the Holy Spirit.

    My comment: There is no biblical record that Jesus told the woman at the well to go and sin no more. I believe the commenter may have been referring to the woman caught in adultery. We do not receive eternal life by “turning from sin.” This is basic salvation by works religion that has never saved anyone. We receive eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

  687. Holly, a lot of the false views of the gospel seem to hinge on a faulty view of grace. The Bible teaches that grace reflects God’s disposition (inclination) to justify a lost sinner apart from the works of the law. Most of the other views center on God providing a person power, through divine enablement, to persevere in good works that either qualify them for eternal life, or confirm that they have received eternal life.

  688. RAS – I like that… “a car battery is still a battery, even if dead”.

    These men have never considered charging the battery to make it useful again. The remedy is, feed His sheep (that is if they love Him)…

  689. John, I was thinking on the man who said, “To say you have faith in Jesus and do nothing about it is to make a false claim.”

    I guess he never acknowledged the words believer, brethren, beloved, etc. in James beforehand. And evidently doesn’t understand how we can be unfaithful. The claim cannot be false since the Holy Spirit in inspiring those same Scriptures identified them as believers and He doesn’t lie.

  690. Curtis, I have never heard the “sinners like you and me” line. That is really crafty, and not in a good way.

  691. hear is another subtle one i just picked up on when relistened to a sermon and challenged me to repent (change my thinky about Christ Jesus) The pastor challenged me that calvanist and the like will use “sinners like you and me” in witnessing . Because they cant say christ Jesus died for all because You may not be an elected one

    “Sinners like you and me ” Now that sounds good and there even is a song wrote about it. The works for or because of salvation loves it for it appeals to the flesh . However what did Paul Preach ?
    “that Christ died for our sins ” our means our Paul included himself with them all to the saved and unsaved .
    “sinners like you and me ” Now that is a pretty slick twist on a gospel that is not The Gospel

    1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

  692. Some are more subtle. Like this:

    Sin, pride, and rebellion, which won’t be in Heaven, versus obedience, humility and submission, which would be the heart conditions that lead people to either receive redemption through Christ, or not. Everyone is a sinner. But sinners who aspire God’s heart end up saved through Christ’s death. Sinners who want God of their own free will will also want to go the way of obedience, humility, and submission.

    My comment: if by “obedience,” the commenter means “obeying the gospel” (by believing it), I would agree. If by “humility,” the writer means to understand that one cannot save himself, I agree. And, if by “submission,” the writer means submitting to Christ’s righteousness versus seeking to establish one’s own righteousness, then I would agree.

    Otherwise, obedience and submission could mean agreeing to obey Christ and to make Him “Lord of our lives” in order to receive eternal life. If either of those things are intended by the writer, that would make her gospel a false gospel of works.

  693. Yikes! That’s more severe than the first. Maturity equals impeccability? The apostles sinned no more? It might not be a new one but it’s at a level I rarely encounter. As you mentioned it contains the common conflations and the typical inconsistencies of LS though. Thanks for sharing.

  694. RAS, here are excerpts from another person who thinks that believing in Jesus as Savior entails believing that he WILL change your life. This is similar to e-mail traffic that I have received that basically says that to insist that a person’s life may not change when he becomes saved is tantamount to having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof (2 Timothy 3:5).

    The power to sin no more lies in truly believing or knowing who God is and his divine nature. By “being like Jesus” is to tap into the power of the spirit of God/Holy Spirit. Truly having the spirit of God completely indwell in you will make you no different than Jesus…

    A misunderstood point about salvation. Salvation is a “life long endeavor” and not an instant ticket into the kingdom of heaven/God by saying some magical words like “I am a sinner, come into my heart and forgive me.” Admitting that I am a sinner and always will be if not for the power of God within you is just the start or turning point from heading toward death to heading toward a new life/birth into growing into a “fully mature” Christian/imitator of Christ/God.

    A mature Christian will be able to follow/imitate Jesus and his disciples/apostles to be able to “sin no more.” This is not some unattainable goal, but is an expected state of “being” that all truly mature Christians should be able to practice and uphold. “Sin no more” is not only possible but expected of us if we are to enter the kingdom of heaven.

    My comment: This comment was written in response to a thread on the woman caught in adultery. The commenter does not appear to understand the gospel. He is confusing imputed righteousness (which one receives when we believes in Christ alone as his Savior), with lifestyle. He is conflating believing in Jesus as Savior with believing that Jesus will change one’s behavior. Since a change in behavior is not necessary to prove one has eternal life, there is no way that believing in the inevitability of a changed life is a necessary part of becoming a believer in Christ.

    Further, the commenter does not appear to believe in eternal security, but rather seems to believe that justification is a process in which one allows Jesus to “change his life.”

    Finally, the commenter is internally inconsistent. The Holy Spirit permanently indwells all believers in the church age (although Jesus’ encounter with the woman caught in adultery is prior to the start of the church age, which makes the commenter’s comment all the more errant). Yet, if that makes them no different than Jesus, why would they need to follow or imitate Jesus?

  695. That’s horrible but much too common. I wish I had a nickel for every time (in the past year alone) that I have heard Matt 7:16 and 21 used incorrectly. A fruit fad has over taken politicians and television talking heads and even “discernment” websites. Of course they always skip v15 and the last part of v18. And the fact that the people referenced (Matt 7:21-23) do not deny Jesus as Lord but they do deny him as Savior (the narrow gate) by proclaiming their own works (the wide gate) is completely lost on them.

    James’ questions have nothing to do with the eternal destination of the believers he is addressing (1:18) but concerns the here and now as evident by v15-16. Faith can be dead but it is still faith just like my car battery is still a car battery when it is “dead”.
    If people would spend as much time searching scripture for evidence of their conclusions as the spend searching themselves for evidence of faith much confusion could be avoided.

    Thanks for keeping an eye out for this stuff John.

  696. Following is a rather long-winded interpretation of James 2:14 that is simply Lordship “salvation” under the guise of grace:

    The bottome line, true faith will result in works. Works alone do not save, works are the natural result of true faith. Love is much the same. As Christ stated, love for Him will result in doing the things He commanded. To say you have faith in Jesus and do nothing about it is to make a false claim. We are saved by grace through faith as the Bible teaches. As a result of faith we do those things God has asked. Abraham and Rahab did the same. Can faith save someone who claims to have faith but does nothing about his claimed faith? That is the question of verse 14, and the answer is clearly no. If the person really has faith, his faith would drive natural actions. Jesus said “not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” – Matthew 7:21. Again, those who claim to have faith, but fail to do the will of God, the natural reaction of true faith, have no home in heaven. Notice the action words that result from true saving faith.

    My comment: How would someone ever have assurance of eternal life? It would have to be based on his self-assessment of whether his combination of good works and behavioral reformation proved his faith. Alternatively, he would have to draw assurance from his intention to be faithful (faith in his good intentions – and there is an old saying about good intentions). Or, finally, he would have to believe that his faith in Christ was going to result in good works and behavioral modification, and when the good works and behavioral modification were manifested in sufficient quantity/combination, that would confirm his circular belief. And, if those confirmatory actions were lacking, he would have to go back to square one and “try to believe in Jesus again.” Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

  697. Curtis, wow!

    So many want to come up with their own gospels.

  698. yea heres one concerning “following ”
    There is a singing group coming to the fundamentalist church i once attended . So I looked up their statement concerning the gospel for salvation

    *That each person when presented with the Gospel must then choose who they will follow (Matthew 19:16-27, Joshua 24:15, John 3:15-17)

    My comments below :

    ​choose who they will follow
    Really ?​

    Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    1Co_1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

  699. Ben, I know what you mean. I have tried to remove that stuff from my vocabulary.

    If you haven’t already seen it, you might like the article on this subject, linked below:

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/04/21/in-search-of-a-true-believer/

  700. John, my favourite remains “real” or “true Christian”, terms used by people who perceive themselves as saved because they are “trying to follow God” or “don’t sin habitually” etc.

    They don’t need Christ, they’re righteous!

  701. Benchap, here is another, from today:

    Christians who follow Christ would warn them that continuing to practice such behaviors will send them right to hell (per the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11)…

    Furthermore, Scripture cites a warning for those “Christians” who approve of such behaviors in Romans 1:32.

    My comment: Behaviors do not send anyone to hell. One doesn’t have to do anything to go to hell. Whoever does not believe in Christ is condemned already (John 3:18).

    Romans 1:32 is not a warning for those “Christians.” It is part of a sweeping passage that lets every single person in the world know that he is a sinner under a death penalty, and therefore in need of a Savior.

    The commenter is advancing and defending a false religion of works that he has mistaken for Christianity.

  702. Benchap, what is is really sad is that these two comments were some of the least virulent of the LS-laden, condemning comments.

    Most were focused on Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, with either no mention (or scant mention) of the grace of God, available through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

  703. Two comments that highlight the typical beliefs of the modern “Christian”.

  704. Here are a couple that I came across today:

    1. I am a man of faith. I believe that God is loving and forgiving of anyone’s sin of any kind when the person repents, and turns from the sinful action. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, “Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.” The last part is critical, it requires a change of direction in her life.

    My comment: You claim to be a man of faith, but faith in what/whom? One does not have to change direction in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    2. I don’t hate Trey, and love him, and will pray for him, but this lifestyle he choose will lead straight to the Gates of Hell. His sin is equal to me telling a lie, or having hate in my heart to another person. No sin is to big for Christ to forgive! Lord has endless grace and mercy! I’m a sinner saved by God’s Grace and Mercy and Christ has changed my life! I’m not saved by dead religion, or by good works, but by receiving the gift of salvation through the love of Christ! John 3:16

    My comment: This was in response to an article about a Christian performer coming out as gay. The commenter is right that no sin is too big for Christ to forgive. The commenter says that he is not saved by dead religion, or by good works, but by receiving the gift of salvation through the love of Christ. However, the commenter says that the lifestyle that Trey chose will lead to the gates of hell. It is not consistent to both believe that eternal life is a free gift, received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, while simultaneously believing that one’s lifestyle will determine his eternal destiny.

    And, while it is great that Christ has changed the commenter’s life, what if his life changes back? Believing in Jesus as Savior does not require believing that He will change your life. It requires believing that He paid for all of our sins at Calvary.

  705. Saw this post on Facebook today:

    I want deliberately to encourage this mighty longing after God. The lack of it has brought us to our present low estate. The stiff and wooden quality about our religious lives is a result of our lack of holy desire. Complacency is a deadly foe of all spiritual growth. Acute desire must be present or there will be no manifestation of Christ to His people. He waits to be wanted. Too bad that with many of us He waits so long, so very long, in vain. The Pursuit of God by A.W. Tozer

    My comment: the “stiff and wooden quality” about the spiritual lives of most in the evangelical church today stems largely from lack of assurance about where they will spend eternity, due to the false gospels of Calvinism and LS. Flesh-driven religious exercises and a mediocre spirituality in which the person in question draws comparisons between his or her level of devotion and commitment and those of others are the inevitable result.

    These popular Reformed theologians like to lambast people for not being devoted, committed or holy enough but do not tell them the solution, and that is to believe the Gospel with childlike faith in its simplicity and power, completely apart from one’s works, commitment, good intentions or worthiness. They are like the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:4:

    “For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers”.

  706. Jon – Clay Nuttal is a nut.

    “No one ever comes to Christ for salvation without first dealing with his or her sin.”Clay Nuttall

    In the flesh, the old man, we are unable to ‘deal with our own sin’,

    “For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. Rom 7:5

    And it is Jesus Christ who DEALT with our sin. Once for all, by one sacrifice we are perfected (Heb 10:10,14). Why doesn’t it say, “He who comes to me (and deals with their sin), I will in no wise cast out” (Jn 6:37)? Or why doesn’t His Word say, “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, DEAL WITH YOUR SIN, and THEN I will give you rest”?

    How can sin be DEALT with? Only by the shedding of blood and it must be a perfect sacrifice, because without a sinless sacrifice, it is a temporary solution. So do they think we can somehow come to God with a temporary solution in hand and bring it to Him as some sort of sacrifice in exchange for the forgiveness of sin? Without shedding of blood there is NO REMISSION (Heb 9:22).

    These people have been drinking self-righteous Satanically blinding Kool-Aid. Forgive my bluntness here, but they are only bringing filthy rags of their own self- righteousness (Is 64:6) which comes from the law (Phil 3:9).

  707. Johninnc – your guy quoting 1 Cor 6:9-11 and Romans 1, I had to chuckle a little because in Romans 1, they always see the ‘big’ sins, and miss that this is a list of what unrighteousness is, and avoid the ‘littler’ ones or don’t even drink them in at all…

    He better look up anything classified as wicked in the Bible and figure out, that all sin is wicked. Has he ever coveted? Been malicious to another? Envious? Hated someone (guilty of murder? Debated? Deceived (lied)? Whispered about someone? Been a backbiter? Proud or boastful? Disobedient to parents?

    The thing that I don’t think they’ve ever even considered on the list, have they or are they now ‘without understanding’ (undiscerning)? Then by their own standards, they’re a goner….

  708. Yes
    And For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    And the whole doctrine of subustionary aattonment.
    The demonstrated sacrifices of the old testament.
    Oh and the the on the cross

    I smell smoke clay and it’s not BBQ chicken

  709. If our sin problem is dealt with before coming to Jesus, why do we need to come to Jesus? For what reason should we be thankful toward Him?

    The quote attempts to sound godly, but it denies the Lord completely.

  710. Jon, I agree with you completely. Jesus dealt with our sin.

  711. Here’s something I just read today: “No one ever comes to Christ for salvation without first dealing with his or her sin.” -Clay Nuttall

    Does this not fly in the face of Romans 5:8 which says: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

  712. Latest from today:

    1 Corinthians 9-11, Romans 1:24-32. If one does not believe the Words in the Bible, and abstain from such immorality, then their home after death is hell according to scripture. Just saying.

    My comment: The writer has zero understanding of the gospel. One does not receive eternal life by abstaining from immorality. One receives eternal life by grace through faith in Christ alone.

  713. Interesting conversation you saw John. The Colonel sounds like he has been listening to John MacArthur, who tells that story in a similar fashion, his viewpoint is because the ruler isn’t willing to let go of his wealth, unwilling to forsake all, in order to enter the kingdom he says….

  714. I will try to make this easy to follow. These are excerpts from a “give and take” between two commenters about the meaning of Jesus’ interaction with the rich young ruler in Luke 18:18-23.

    Commenter A calls himself “The Colonel,” and is a Southern Baptist.
    Commenter B calls herself “Mary.”

    Neither one seems to have a clue.
    ________________________________________________

    The Colonel:

    The guidance was specific to the “rich young ruler” not intended to be guidance for us all as it is never mentioned as a requirement to anyone else. (an edit here, I did not intend to say that the verse doesn’t have application to all Christians but rather that it deals with a specific heart condition addressed in 1 Timothy 6:10. My point is that you don’t have to live in sackcloth and ashes to be a Christian. The “guidance” I am addressing is that the rich young ruler was to give it all away – you don’t have to be a pauper to follow Christ but the love of money makes it impossible) The rich young ruler was looking for a formula for salvation rather than salvation itself. In order to point this out, Jesus pointed to his one true weakness, his love of his wealth.

    Mary:

    The problem I see is that many modern Christians, particularly far right evangelicals is they want a plan for salvation that requires little of nothing of them. They want to come to church on Sunday, give some money, pray for forgiveness and then repeat the same next week. They read the entire story you are discussing and like you dismiss it as not applicable to me. They have their home, their cars, their beach house, their club memberships, etc. etc. and they sit by and watch poor people starve every day, they watch refugees die from lack of food and shelter. Surely god does not expect them to help those people.

    I think god’s message here is being rich will not keep you out of heaven, but will make it much harder for you to get there. You should concentrate on your salvation. Not on accumulating wealth in this world. You should should spend your money on helping others, and not stash it away in your piggy bank.

    Unfortunately I think your analysis is what most Christians like. i.e. that was not intended for me. I can handle the wealth. I will be one of the “very few” rich people god pushes through the eye of the needle. I will be the exception to the rule. I can have it all.
    ________________________________________________

    My comments:

    The Colonel has a misunderstanding of this passage that is very common. That is, the false belief that each person has something he must give up (his sin of choice) in order to receive the free gift of eternal life.

    Jesus was not telling the rich young ruler that he was required to give up his wealth in order to have eternal life. Rather, he was telling him that he needed to quit trusting in keeping the law for eternal life, because he had already broken it, and was therefore disqualified.

    There is only one plan of salvation. It is not “customized” to each person, based on his particular sin.

    Mary also has a misunderstanding of the gospel. God’s plan of salvation does not require that we “concentrate on our salvation” (that is, receiving eternal life is not a “work in process”). Nor does receiving et