Lordship Salvationists Fail Their Own Test

by Jack Weaver and johninnc

One of Jack’s long-ago friends and a great help in his church in South Florida, Tom Croley, dropped this excellent observation to Jack last week. What a classic dilemma this presents for Lordship “salvation” pushers (LSers).

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The other day the Lord gave me an observation about LS that I have never put together before. You have probably already thought of it but here it is.

The same people that say you must examine your faith to make sure your faith is genuine (“true faith”) usually teach that God chooses who will be saved and who will not and the associated erroneous teaching that “faith is the gift of God”.

They never seem to think about what they are telling people.

Suppose I am in the congregation listening to them expound on all the “tests” of true faith and I decide that … “Whoa! I don’t have genuine faith after all.” THEN what can I do about it?

Nothing! Because the same preacher on another Sunday will tell them that God gives you faith. So if you discover that your faith is not genuine upon hearing said sermon, you might as well get up and walk out the door and deposit your Bible on the way out — because according to them, you cannot DO anything about it you’re just not chosen, tough luck!

It makes you wonder why they even bother to preach sermons on “testing your faith to see if you are really saved.”

After all, what are they going to do…. “believe harder?” Or maybe they should go out and do a bunch of extra good works to prove that their faith is real after all?

Since nobody does get up and walk out, it shows that people are not listening, or if they are, they smugly think that their Pastor must be talking about someone else, because “there is nothing wrong with my faith” and “I don’t need to do any more good works.”

This is a form of arrogance. We can always do more for Jesus.

Praise God for Acts 16:31:

“And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

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Jack’s friend Tom Croley makes an excellent point. Of course, the scriptural passages that LSers misuse to come up with their non-Biblical, gospel-eviscerating “tests”, cannot possibly mean what they say they mean.

The Bible says that one can have assurance of eternal life as soon as he has believed in Christ as Savior:

John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

But, a new Christian doesn’t have anything of himself to examine for salvation. If a new Christian can have assurance of salvation without looking to himself, SO CAN ANY CHRISTIAN!

One CANNOT POSSIBLY look to his works, attitudes, good intentions, commitment, passion, feelings, emotions, direction of his life, sinning less, being more sensitive to sin, or any of these things to affirm, or even to corroborate whether or not he has eternal life.

The Bible teaches that works do not enter into the equation of whether or not someone goes to heaven or hell.

Romans 11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

LSers are left on the horns of a dilemma: How can they trust in Christ alone as Savior, yet look to their works for assurance of salvation?

Perhaps as you’ve read this article, it has dawned on you that the “tests of life” that pastors have been teaching are not Biblical.

And, maybe it has dawned on you that in relying on these “tests”, you have never trusted in Christ alone as your Savior.

If you would like to know how to have eternal life, click here:  Gospel link

 

93 responses to “Lordship Salvationists Fail Their Own Test

  1. Funny to re-read here, I always wonder who is going to grade their test after they have ‘examined themselves’. 🙂

    What if they have been fooled by evanescent grace? They ‘think’ they are saved but only because God tricked them with a fake faith. So who exactly can judge their salvation? Their test only means, “check out your works and see if you have really been sorry, and are ‘repenting from sin’ and ‘keep repenting the rest of your lives'” (Washer).

    I wonder if people anonymously graded their ‘test’ if the others who knew them would find them to be ‘saved’?

    The whole point of 2 Cor 13:5 is the test was these people could KNOW because Jesus Christ was in them because they had believed… it was proof Paul was a true apostle. Not proof that they were true believers….

  2. It’s good to ask saved from what.

    Every time we see saved or salvation, we should ask ‘from what’ or ‘what kind’ of deliverance do we see. Are we being saved from hell, or is a believer being saved from some consequence or loss? Here is a list I put together once on an article regarding eternal security.

    Things we can be saved from:

    Loss of Fellowship with God (1 John 1:3, 6,9)
    Loss of Fellowship with others (1 John 1:3, 7)
    Loss of Fullness of joy in or walk (1 John 1:4)
    Loss of Rewards at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor 3:10-16)
    Judgment in this lifetime (1 Cor 11:29)
    Loss of our physical life (1 Cor 5:5; Acts 5:1-11, 1 Cor 11:30)
    Loss of our health, be weak or sickly (1 Cor 11:30)
    Loss of our testimony or justification before men (James 2, Titus 3:8)
    Shaming the name of Christ for sins named among us (Eph 5:3).
    Chastening (1 Cor 11:32; Heb 12:5-6)
    Consequences for our actions (Gal 6:7-9)
    Others face things because of us, including loss of knowing Christ. (Gal 6:9)
    We can stray from the truth, and be dishonorable – (2 Tim 2:18-20)
    Being ashamed at His appearing – (1 John 2:28)
    Losing the joy of our salvation (Ps 51:12)

  3. Journalistic Mistake

    That last sentence is what I needed to hear.

    I have been stressed too. I would awake with the same anger, toward others and God. I also noticed that being under a false Gospel made me mean, self righteous and everything I didn’t want to be. I left a job because I was told by my friends to fight for my rights (paraphrase), which I knew wasn’t the way Jesus would want a believer to go.

    Yeah, I’ve only come out from my church recently (March, I believe), and I am often tossed to and fro and tormented by my own failure to understand verses. More than that, I’m tormented by not having the assurance that I know will lead to correct motives for service and will draw me closer to the Lord. However, this website is certainly helping.

    That last sentence, as said, is great advice. Thank you.

  4. God resisteth the proud
    giveth grace to the humble
    1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

    the grace of God = Teaching us
    Tit 2:11 For Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
    hath appeared to all men,
    T

  5. Welcome to expreacheman Journalistic Mistake

    we share similar testimonies I was called out from among them caught up in Calvinism/legalism of the IFCA fundamentalist kind
    had a major episode august 9th 2010 and fall 2011 . the one in fall 2011 ended up in hospital for 5 days getting my heart back in rhythm from all the stress. from a church split and confrontation from elders over the clarity of the Gospel .

    i don’t think false doctrine can affect every soul like it did me but at the very least it stunts spiritual growth . for me if i find myself getting angry or waking up angry i start back tracking what may have heard.
    I attended a local church in my area knowing they don’t believe in eternal life is a present possession and that you can loose it . They did appear to receive what the scriptures had to say when i spoke up during Sunday school class thinking i was some kind of formally trained pastor who knew scripture very well but at the same time I was tormenting my soul sitting under a pulpit teaching a false gospel . it got me so worked up and un happy I almost quit my job because i started focusing on what is wrong instead of what is right about my job.
    That’s what works for salvation can do to a soul it can cause you to see only the negative making you mean in general and discontented .

    In short be careful what you are listening to and know the doctrinal position of the pulpit you choose to sit under and choose to lighn up with scripture rather than a pulpit .
    a good friend of mine told me when a soul comes out from a bondage and is set free they have a tendency to be very sensitive towards the bondage they were in.
    so take time to allow Jesus to love on us all . allow scripture to read you allow the gospel to know you rather than trying to understand the gospel in your own understanding

    Curt

  6. Journalistic Mistake – you could have described a whole lot of things I have experienced, maybe a little more spaced out. Isaiah 64:6 is a special one to me too. I didn’t get caught up in Calvinism mostly because the first guy I ran across was so learned, so brash, so unkind, that as I spoke Scripture and saw how contemptuous he was, how dismissive, it instantly made me question the doctrine. Don’t get me wrong, I ran across some nice ones, except when I crossed the doctrine, eventually most would become pretty unkind. I went through a lot of the same books, I remember reading John and Romans a lot because I had a John/Romans combo I kept in my purse, so when I was out, I’d re-read, and there was something new to be seen all the time.

    Several verses have affected me deeply regarding praying and staying in the Word and always checking everything by it: Pro 3:5-6, Luke 10:38-42; John 8:31, 1 Thess 5:21; Acts 17:11 are some. So glad to have you here with us, may you just stay close to Him and continue in His Word 🙂

  7. John,

    you said – But, even if these particular people were unsaved, that doesn’t mean that anyone who lives a sinful lifestyle is unsaved.

    Carnal church at Corinth
    The publican (vs) the pharisee
    Those who have their faith overthrown.

    all saved.

    I agree, no “fruit inspecting” for salvation; only belief in who Jesus was and the gospel.

  8. Mary and Preston, I can also see it both ways. But, even if these particular people were unsaved, that doesn’t mean that anyone who lives a sinful lifestyle is unsaved.

    Since there is no quantification standard for how many sins, or what types, prove someone isn’t
    saved, looking to behavior for evidence of salvation, or lack of salvation, is impossible.

    It might be useful to you to read the section on “The Evidence of Salvation”in Yankee Arnold’s church’s’ Statement of Faith.

  9. Phil R, I think this is excellent advice.

  10. Mary,

    that is a REALLY good question. I can see it “both” ways.

    verse 1-6 – Paul tells us that the law cant save. IF anyone should be able to boast about the law, it was him. Even persecuting the church by the law.
    – to me, this follows along with the “judaizers” coming in and preaching “another gospel”. Why would he be telling them this about himself. Seems he had to defend against them here as well.

    verses – 7-11 – now he considered everything he did to be nothing. That ALL he WAS is “dung”. verse 9 -tells us that own righteousness is of the law.
    – to me we see the transition here. I was that and now I am this. I was considered “blameless” in the jews religion.

    verses 12-16 – telling us that we should act as though we have not attained salvation, that we should press forward in the high calling of Christ, although we HAVE already attained it (verse 16).
    – we KNOW we have already attained it, but we shouldn’t “act” like we have.

    Then your verses

    19-20 – looking forward to the time when we will be changed and have a glorious body

    NOT THE ANSWER YOU WANTED TO HEAR – I can see it both ways.
    It could be back referring to those that keep the law for salvation (v 1-6) and THIER end is destruction.

    OR it could be talking about the believer, who has used his “liberty” as a cloke to sin.

    IF I was forced to choose. I would think it is about those who were following the flesh for salvation. The judaizers, who were establishing their own rightouesness which is of the law, that were following him around. In Romans, Paul weeped for his countrymen, telling us he would go to hell for them.

    Sorry, that wasn’t much help. but my thoughts.

  11. Journalistic Mistake

    Thank you, guys and gal.

    I believe I have been granted wisdom and clarification on the matter.

    In March of 2012 I read the Sermon on the mount and saw myself as a sinner. I had been previously trying to make myself righteous, but now understood I couldn’t. I understood Jesus was God. I continued to read the Gospels. I came across John and again realised Jesus was God and that He had died on the cross to save me and give me everlasting life. I believed on Him to save me from death and I believed I received the new nature assuring me that I was His. I continued to read and Romans and Galatians and Ephesians taught me that salvation was indeed by grace through faith alone, no works no self righteousness. I also came across verses such as the one in Isaiah about my works being filthy rags. I believe I had trusted solely in the Lord.

    However, immediately after being saved I was hammered by Calvinists. I was beguiled almost immediately. Their teaching, however, didn’t match the grace of God I had seen in the scriptures so I removed myself from them. However, I did for a time believe that works would follow automatically after salvation due to the new nature (I did not understand the flesh and Spirit war). I came across SDAs and Mormons and all those cults and saw through their attempts to tell me I had to add works to the finished work of Christ and I never believed this.

    Eight months into my salvation, I decided to find a church. I begun to attend a baptist church. It was here that the Lord begun to shed light of the flesh and Spirit war and I began to better understand grace again. I no longer believed works were automatic in the Christian life through being born again, but through walking in the Spirit (a choice that had no bearing on salvation). I read Tozer and the man who wrote grace abounding and began to see, especially in the latter, that these people believed in works salvation. At the same time, churches linked to mine preached a Gospel of turn from sins (something I knew was incorrect because of my time with the Calvinists) and, more troubling to me, you must call on the Lord to be saved.

    When I believed I was saved, I did not call. I did call on the Lord a week or so after as I read through Romans 10 and was worried that maybe I had deceived myself into thinking the peace that I had never experienced previously was due to having been saved. So I prayed the prayer and it only affirmed to me that I had already trusted on the Lord and been saved.

    However, this Baptist movement beguiled me and my faith reached a point where I would call on the Lord for salvation numerous times a day out of fear that my salvation experience where I placed trust in the Lord to save me from the punishment of my sin was not enough because I didn’t also ask for salvation.

    I left this movement this year after seeing that nearly almost all of these churches preach that “a real Christian will…” which was contrary to what I believe the Lord had been teaching me – both through His word and through the fact that I was a true Christian and yet I had been overcome with sin and a declining faith throughout my time in the movement that focuses on externals.

    Anyway, I just revisited some of the websites of these churches and I have seen that they promote Lordship Salvationists such as MacArthur. I always knew that these churches didn’t teach the same grace that I had seen in scripture in the early days of being saved, but I could never understand the reason so I was tormented with the thought that perhaps the Christianity and Gospel and Christ I thought was true was really my own delusion.

    But NO! They are Lordship Salvationists and, like I thought, they teach and preach a religion of guilt and bondage, false assurance and one that mixes justification and sanctification, rather than the true religion of liberty and joy and peace in the everlasting, unmerited love of our Lord.

    This may be long. I hope it doesn’t make me look like I’m trying to boast in myself either. I am so thankful for you guys, this website and the Lord Jesus Christ for leading me here when I was about to give up on my faith, His love for me and live as if He doesn’t exist or care. You guys may have saved my life (temporal) and helped me back into the peace and joy of the Lord that I have been kept from for too long.

    Thank you 🙂

  12. JM, your struggles with feelings like, “I may not have believed the right way to have saving faith” is something I and others here have wrestled with also (Satan loves to put these worries and lies in our minds and keep us bound)..
    My advise: just let go and turn it over to God. The fact is that there is nothing you can or ever could do to remove the sins of your lifetime. That is why Christ had to do it all for you and do something you could never do; that is out of yours and my reach, and that is to pay the penalty for all our sins at the cross. And when he was raised from the dead that sealed our reconciliation with God giving us eternal life with Christ. So stop worrying about all your confusion about your focus on your faith or if it was the right kind of faith, and know that Christ already did it all and paid it all for you.
    Something else to remember that I hope will give you joy and peace. Since Christ was raised from the dead, then we too have been raised with Christ and seated with Him. JM, that means it’s a done deal and you have been raised with Christ. So you see you can’t strive for your salvation: you are already there.

  13. JM, the Word was written so we might have comfort and hope (Romans 15:4) and so that we might know we have eternal life (1 John 5:13), even a whole book (John 20:31) so we might know, so just keep studying with the right motives (2 Tim 2:15) and trust the Lord will show you the certainty of the word of truth (Prov 22:17-21) as you apply yourself to His knowledge.

    Praying for you.

  14. Sorry to change the subject, but I got Ralph Arnolds book, called The Gospel Driven Man, on page 51, he is discussing the two natures we have. I understand the carnal believer can look just like the lost man. He is quoting Phillipians 3.18.19. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

    They live for their belly; their natural appetites,
    yes a saved man can live according to his flesh nature and he can live for himself. For whosover will save his life shall lose it. (Mark 8.35) At first glance you would think this is talking to an unbeliever. Ralph says that aploeia(greek) is destruction, meaning ruin or loss in the Concordance.

    Do you all agree this scripture in Phillipians is only for the saved.

  15. JM, I feel for you. I have had the same struggles of doubt and second guessing my faith in Christ. Or I have condemning thoughts like’ if you are really saved why do you still commit x,y or z sin’? I couldn’t possibly add to or say more than what John and Preston have already said. But you might find this sermon by Tom Cucuzza helpful: 4 Major Reasons People Doubt Their Salvation Link: http://www.northlandchurch.com/content.cfm?id=213&download_id=51 It’s been a while since I listened to it but I believe I found it helpful at the time. There are times when I feel like I need some kind of pastoral counseling but I don’t think there are any sound pastors in my area. Hope the sermon is helpful. Hearing the Gospel(Good News) presented clearly is always a good thing too. Tom and Yankee Arnold both present the Gospel clearly and often in my opinion.

  16. Eternal security is PREVELANT in the scriptures. Again, if one does not believe in eternal security, then he or she is saying, in effect, “I have to do something to obtain it or keep it.” This results in NOT BELIEVING (putting total confidence in) the gospel and putting SOME amount of confidence in his or her self. Below are ten reasons why I believe in the eternal security of the believer. Always remember, the Bible CANNOT contradict itself.

    Reason 1 – Everlasting life means everlasting life. In the book of John, the words “eternal life” are directly correlated with believe. (See last chapter). Take John 6:47,

    “Verily, verily I say unto thee, he that believeth in me HATH everlasting life.

    The word “hath” is present tense; similar to “has”. A person who put his or her trust (belief) in Jesus HAS everlasting life. If one HAS everlasting life, how long does it last? It lasts forever. If one could lose his or her salvation, then the person never had everlasting life. They had temporary life. Thus Jesus would have lied and that is impossible.

    In hope of eternal life, which God, that CANNOT lie, promised before the world began (Titus 1:2)

    Reason 2 – Sealed means sealed. As we have seen in the chapter, “The Gospel”, one is sealed the moment he or she believes (trusts) the Gospel. We also have seen that this person is “sealed” unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30). If a person is sealed unto the day of redemption, how can one lose salvation? People are either sealed unto the day of redemption or they are not sealed unto the day of redemption. Since the Bible is the word of God, I will believe (Eph 4:30).

    Reason 3 – Jesus promised not to lose nothing in the book of John. “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:39,40).

    Are we to think that when Jesus has one, He will actually lose one? I see the “should”. However, since Jesus is God, again—are we to think that he will lose one?

    Reason 4 – The Bible states that ALL sins are forgiven to the believer. ALL in the Greek is PAZ – it means total, all, 100%, always (which is a measure of time). If the Bible says ALL my sins are forgiven (past, present, future) then I CAN’T lose my salvation.

    “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, HAVING FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross” (Colossians 2:13,14).

    “And by him all that BELIEVE are justified from ALL THINGS, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses” (Acts 13:39).

    Am I not to believe the Bible when it reads “ALL”? If ALL my sins are forgiven, what sins do I have left to send me to hell? NONE.

    Reason 5 – In the book of Hebrews, the writer tells us that those that are sanctified are “perfected forever”. How does one get sanctified? We are told by Jesus himself in Acts 26:18,

    “To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which ARE SANCTIFIED BY FAITH that is IN ME.”

    We clearly see that we are sanctified by faith in Jesus; NOT faith in ourselves, the law or works. If 100% of our faith is in Jesus, then we are perfected forever.

    “For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOREVER them that are sanctified” (Heb 10:14).

    Since, I am perfected FOREVER, how can I lose my salvation?

    Reason 6 – Salvation is a GIFT and not a reward. There a MANY verses that read salvation is a GIFT. We see this in Eph 2:8-9, Rom 6:23 and Rom 5:15-20, which reads:

    But not as the offence, so also is the FREE GIFT. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the GIFT BY GRACE, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the GIFT: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the FREE GIFT is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.

    Salvation is NOT a gift if one has to do something to earn it. IF one cannot earn it, how can one lose it? Also, how many times does the Bible need to tell us that salvation is FREE before we will actually believe it?

    Reason 7 – Jesus said that nothing will be plucked out of His hand or the Father’s hand.

    “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER PERISH, neither shall ANY MAN pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28,29).

    If one could lose their salvation, then someone or something “plucked them out of His hand”. I find that to be impossible for anything to pluck us out of God’s hand. The same holds true in Romans 38,39.

    “For I am persuaded, that NEITHER death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

    NOTHING—not even ourselves—will be able to pluck us out of His hand.

    Reason 8 – A born again believer cannot lose their salvation because THEN we would be able to “boast”.

    “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph 2:8,9).

    “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith” (Romans 3:27).

    Boasting simply means this, we can’t go to the Father and say, “See, I deserve to be here because I am not a sinner like Hitler!” This is boasting before God. IF, I could lose my salvation, THEN I would be able to boast, “See, I didn’t do that sin to lose my salvation like that guy over there!” ONE CAN’T BOAST at all about his or her salvation.

    Reason 9 – The Bible says over and over that the believer is “declared righteous” by faith, belief, grace. There is NO verse that states once a believer is “declared righteous” they become unrighteous. JUSTIFIED means “declared righteous”. The following are two examples.

    “Being JUSTIFIED FREELY by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3:24).

    “Knowing that a man is NOT justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and NOT by the works of the law: for by the works of the law SHALL NO flesh be justified” (Gal 2:16).

    Reason 10 – IF I could lose my salvation, then “the flesh” gets partial credit. The “born again” believer understands that “the flesh” cannot justify them AT ALL.

    “For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have NO CONFIDENCE in the flesh” (Phil 3:3).

    “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth NO GOOD thing” (Rom 7:18a).
    “Are ye so FOOLISH? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the FLESH?” (Gal 3:1-3).

    Our flesh cannot please God at all. Are we to think that once we are sealed that we maintain our salvation through the flesh (works or works of the law that WE do)? Only “religion” would have us be so foolish (Gal 3:1-3).

    Bonus reason – Here are two more verses to consider.

    “…to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, RESERVED in heaven for you 5 Who are KEPT by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (1 Peter 1:4-5).

    “Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that ARE SANCTIFIED by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ, and called…” (Jude 1:1).

    If I am kept by God and preserved by God, how can I lose my salvation? The simple answer is; I can’t.

    A QUESTION

    The Bible is full of people who found salvation both as individuals and groups. The list includes: Saul, Cornelius, the Ethiopian, Simon the Sorcerer, the thief on the cross, the Philippian jailor, etc. Can you find ONE example in the Bible where someone lost his or her salvation in the New Testament? Here’s a hint. You won’t find one person named in the New Testament who lost his or her salvation. The Bible CANNOT contradict itself! It is God who keeps us, seals us, never losing us and not allowing anything to pluck us out of His hand. Believers ARE the body of Christ and nothing will ever separate us from the love of God. He sanctifies us by faith.

    “For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOREVER them that are sanctified” (Heb 10:14).

    WOW! How great is this?! How great is grace! How great is God! Believe (put TOTAL confidence in) the Gospel of Jesus today. DON’T trust in yourself, religion, or works to save you. Salvation is FREE; a GIFT. Believe ONLY in Him (Jesus) and be eternally secured!

    NOTE – For a more in depth study on eternal security, see a book titled Secure Forever by Tom Cucuzza.

  17. JM,

    post 1

    been there done that. i called it “faith in my faith”. was my faith good enough, was it enough?

    How many times did Jesus tell His already saved disciples, “ye of LITTLE faith”?

    See? the disciples had “little faith” but were saved,

    It not the level of ones faith that saves. its the “object” of that faith that saves.

    “For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

    This verse is sending two clear messages. First, notice salvation is a GIFT. Pssssst, a little secret for you: Gifts are free!

    Second is what we owe for our sin. “Wages” is a term mostly used for employment. Wages are what are owed to the employee in exchange for the work they have done. Well, death is what we owe in exchange for our sin. Death, in this passage, can be referring to physical death or to the second death, which is eternal torment in a literal lake of fire (See Rev 20:14). Both can apply. “The wages of sin is death.” So, let’s ask ourselves a few questions, shall we?

    1. If you had 10 chocolate bars and you gave away ALL 10 bars, how many bars would you have left? The answer: NONE.

    2. If you had 25 mugs at a yard sale and someone bought ALL 25 mugs, how many mugs would you have left? The answer: NONE

    3. If you had $100 and a thief stole ALL $100, how many dollars would you have left? The answer: NONE

    HERE IT COMES!

    4. If you have ALL these sins you owe as wages and JESUS came and paid for ALL those sins, how many sins would you have left to send you to hell? The answer: NONE.

    onto post 2 – eternal security.

  18. JM, it sounds like you know that salvation is by grace, through faith in Christ alone. So, when you have doubts, perhaps it is because you focus your assurance back on yourself. You do not have to have, or maintain a perfect faith in order to remain saved.

    If you believe that Christ took away the sins of the world, that would have to include yours.

    Please see this excerpt from one of our articles entitled “To Declare His Righteousness”:

    Is Jesus God in the flesh? Did He die for our sins (all of them, for everyone in the world – past, present, and future)? Did that include your sins – past, present, and future? Was He raised from the dead, proving that His payment was accepted?

    The “what if I?” questions need to be turned back and met with “what DID Jesus do?”

    JM, I would recommend that you not dwell on yourself, but turn your eyes back to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

  19. Journalistic Mistake

    Hey guys,

    I know this is true. I believe I have believed, however I’m tormented daily that I haven’t believed on Christ but rather continue to believe on Christ plus me, which is really just belief in me. I always have doubts about eternal security, despite knowing the verses, and this only continues the cycle of doubt and fear that I’ve never believed on Christ alone. I know this means I would not be born again, and therefore I’m destined for judgement.

    I don’t know how to break this cycle. I go through the Gospel often and try to understand it and believe it and Him, but I always worry that I didn’t believe properly (that is, I still trust myself or that I must persevere). It’s really frustrating. I don’t know if I’m merely a battered believer or a lost soul who simply will not believe not matter how much I think I want to.

    I know this sounds crazy, and indeed it is, I just don’t know how to break the cycle.

  20. Preston, depends on the venue. Is it for a book, or a blog? If you do capitalize and bold, make sure you do it consistently and orderly, such as capitalize sections, and maybe bold important points? Just a drawing board thought. I know some that are helpful at editing. But if you have a publisher, they generally know how much is too much.

    I’m sorry, I’m missing the question on how to do it better, forgive me. Yankee explained the one in 1 John 3:9 as being commit – poieo vs. prasso. Maybe what you are saying is prasso is in Romans 7? Anyways, we’ll try again 🙂 In Christ, Holly

  21. Holly, Curtis,

    I never saw your posts

    Thanks for the encouragement!!!!! you too Nathan.

    I agree about Romans and 1 John being about 2 separate births. One of the nuggets I got not too long ago was that in v19 (Rom 7) – the word “do” is prassw that means “to practice, to habitually commit”. I think it came from a “Tom sermon”. I used Romans 7 in the chapter explaining 1 John 3:9.

    There is a chapter explaining 1 John 3:9. Thus i wrote “If you read the CHAPTER on 1 John 3:6 carefully”

    Do you have a better way of putting it? maybe just take it out??? again, I am a poor writer.

    Another question. In the chapters i capitalize and bold a lot to grab attention. The publisher recommended that i dont do this.

    Any thoughts? I thought it helpful to bold and capitalize words that people might not see when first reading it. – maybe do it less??????

  22. Preston, that was good, just would be questioning 1 John 3:5-9 as saying we are all practicing sin. He took away our sin, in the new man, perfected forever. The word is commit (poieo) not practice. As in one time, and I believe both speak to the new man don’t they? At least that is how I understand 1 John 3, although I know most every new translation changes it to ‘practicing sin’.

    So I agree with Romans 7 which contrasts both new man (mind serves the law of God) and old man (flesh serves the law of sin), but wasn’t quite seeing eye to eye on 1 John 3. Let me know what you think 🙂

    In Christ, Holly

  23. you should keep writing Preston , I myself find your writing simple We need more simple these days .

    also one of my favorite’s to remember “Jesus SAT DOWN “

  24. Marty, for the rewards comments, start with the one from Lisa dated December 9, 2014 at 10:37 am.

  25. Preston,

    I only have one word to say to you regarding your post………..

    Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  26. Good day,

    This is long but I thought he might be helpful. So i understand if you dont post it. I am actually writing a book (dont know if I will publish it or not as I am not a good writer). But Here is the chapter on Heb 10:26 I literally just finished. since it was brought up on this post, I figured it might help.

    I actually took some things out to make it a bit shorter. AND YES ,I will take constructive criticism for my poor writing.

    Hebrews 10:26
    6 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    I obviously know that passage of scripture being a smoker and searching whole heartedly for the TRUTH and what is really the gospel. By looking at it ALONE, it is a very condemning verse. It causes much panic. I know, it caused me to panic early in my walk. It SEEMS like one can lose their salvation by sinning. (See eternal security chapter). However, when one looks at the context of what is being said in Hebrews, it turns panic into SECURITY.

    CONTEXT -what is being discussed in this area? It is a letter written to Jewish people that had believed the gospel and were saved. The writer called them “Holy brethren” (Heb 3:1) What was happening? They were going back to the levitical LAW. This includes the SACRIFICING OF ANIMALS. How does one know this? Chapter 9: 11 – 13

    – 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;12 Neither by the blood of GOATS and CALVES, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for US.13 For if the blood of BULLS and GOATS, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh4 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works TO SERVE the living God?

    We get a lot from these verses of scripture. First, we don’t get atonement by the shedding of blood from bulls and goats (OT). Second, the writer said, “obtaining eternal redemption for US”. This means he was writing to saved people. Third, we see that “dead works” don’t save (Heb 6). We are not saved by works (Rom 11:6). So quit trying to earn salvation by working, they are DEAD works!!! We are saved by the precious blood of Jesus Christ shed at the cross (1 cor 15:1-4). However, we do works “to serve” the living God. Salvation is FREE, without works (Eph 2:8-9). We serve the Lord because we are ALREADY saved. Salvation and service, always keep the separate.

    Hebrews 9 and 10, within the context of the book, we see that these SAVED jewish brethren were being convinced to go BACK under the levitical law and the animal, sacrificial system of the OT. The writer is trying to convince them that JESUS was the eternal sacrifice for sin. Go Back to Hebrews 1:3.

    -3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had BY HIMSELF purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

    This is the theme of the book of Hebrews and the issue the writer was attempting to address. Let’s Keep going in chapter 9. Later in the chapter, it speaks of Jesus being the sacrifice ONCE FOR ALL. That in the OT, the priest entered into the temple every year, but no more. For Jesus has entered into the Holy place to put away sin….AMEN.

    24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
    25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
    26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but NOW once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of HIMSELF.
    27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
    28 So Christ was ONCE offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation

    Into Hebrews 10, you get the same theme.

    3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    THEN

    8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
    9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second

    Here comes a couple of GREAT verses.

    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for ALL
    12 But this man, after he had offered ONE SACRIFICE for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God
    14-For by ONE offering he hath PERFECTED FOREVER them that are sanctified.

    Isn’t this one of the most uplifting books in the bible? I mean, look how many times does it tells us that JESUS was the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world. How many times do we see ONCE for ALL? How about verse 14 “ perfected forever”? YES, I know the other versions read “being sanctified”- I am KJV1611 PREFERRED for many reasons). As if this wasn’t enough, the writer, talking to saved people who were leaving Jesus and grace, wants to give assurance to these believers. It does this by saying “for he is faithful that promised”. Salvation IS about Jesus’s promises to us!!!

    22 Let us draw near with a true heart in FULL assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (FOR HE IS FAITHFUL THAT PROMISED)24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works

    HERE IS THE VERSE – For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

    If you read the chapter on 1 John 3:6 carefully, you will see that we are all practicing sinners. Many of the sins Christians commit are willful. Read Romans 7:15-25 to see Paul’s current battle with sin. What I mean by current is this, when he wrote Romans, he was currently sinning. Look at the verbs. They are all present tense. Roman 7:15-20

    Sin is sin; whether willful or not. Most sin is willful. What was the willful sin going on here? Rejecting Jesus sacrifice and sacrificing animals. Anyway, for if we willfully/or not wilfully sin after we hear the knowledge of truth there REMAINS NO SACRIFICE FOR SINS.

    WHAT A TRUE STATEMENT THIS IS? Today, there is NO goat, NO lamb, NO animal sacrifice that REMAINS that can take away sin. Today, there REMAINS no more sacrifice for sin. WHY? The once for all sacrifice happened 2000 years ago by Jesus. This is the CONTEXT of the book!!!! We must look at who the book is written to, what is going on and the solution. Convincing saved people that went BACK to sacrificing animals, that no more animal sacrifices are needed. QUIT doing it!!! There REMAINS no sacrifice for sin. Their action pretty much is saying “Jesus sacrifice was NOT good enough”. This action troddens under foot the Son of God (verse 29).

    – PERSONAL QUESTION – How many professing Christians do you know that say, ”Jesus sacrifice was not good enough” by adding to the gospel????

    Many religious use this passage to say one can lose their salvation. Hog wash!!! In verse 14 it reads “perfected forever”. If a born again believer is perfected forever, how can they lose their salvation??? The religious will always take scripture out of context!!! Again, He was telling these jewish brethren who were sacrificing animals, “there REMAINS no more sacrifice for sins!!” If we continue reading in Hebrews we read that these people believed the gospel and did some things for the kingdom (verse 32-35). Verse 35 is another assurance of salvation verse.

    – 35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of REWARD.36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise

    What is the will of God????? – John 6:40 – 40 And this is the WILL OF HIM THAT SENT ME, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

    What are the promises of God? Salvation is promised to those who believe on the completed work of Jesus at the cross (that’s FREE a GIFT of God-Eph 2:8-9). REWARDS are promised to those who abide in the faith and bear fruit worthy of repentance (change of mind).

    Have you believed/trusted in the ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice of Jesus or are you believing/trusting in something else? Maybe you are trusting in what Hebrews calls “dead works”? If you have trusted in this sacrifice of Jesus alone, you are perfected forever (Heb 10:14)

  27. be careful of anyone who says the KJV is the “preserved word of God “

  28. Holly, it’s not just Gail Riplinger and Peter Ruckman one should watch out for, but the whole quatrefecta of them and Jack Chick and Samuel Gipp, who all associate with each other and propagate a distorted version of dispensationalism and who have no problem with the snakes of a false definition of repentance and a subtle form of lordship salvation to sneak in under the door as well as with some outrageous doctrines concerning Ham and Noah, Canaan’s curse and covert racism towards the descendants of Ham (read black people) as well as other problems with doctrine.
    And there’s the issue that these big name people seem to have some occultism in their teachings as well, which is also telling, but I already wrote about that a few months ago.
    That and they’re money-grubby with putting out books and tracts and with their online stores.

    But these aren’t the only KJVOs to watch out for, the whole of big name brothers like Kent and Eric Hovind, Chuck Missler, etc., who promote a KJVO issue and a perfect bible translation in English or any other language not written by the jewish writers of the Word of God does not exist.
    Only the autographs and thir faithful copies.

    But the KJV is a trustworthy translation, unlike many modern ones, and so are the other reformation bibles in Europe and other faithfully translated bibles in other languages.
    I like my Statenvertaling (the dutch equivalent of the KJV, from 1637) and my Lutherbibel (the first reformation bible, it’s the german one and stems from 1545) and they read quite well with the updated language.

    Thank God for these great bibles and what He did with them through faithfule men and women.
    Not other books, poems and supposed christian classics and essentials should we read, but foremost His holy Word in our languages. [2 Timothy 3:15-16]

  29. Hi John John – you know I’ve had some of the most interesting studies in KJV, but you can’t really go to the dictionary for some of the words, but my favorite memory is redound in 2 Cor 4:15, and just seeing the depth of the word, I can only imagine how difficult to convey always everything, but no matter, when I read, there is always seeming to be something new, His Word never gets old.

  30. Jack, thanks! Glad to be welcome. I’m happy to use the KJV when here.

    Holly, interesting points as always.

  31. John John – interesting that one of the translators (Leland Ryken) wrote a book on the English translations, I forget the title, but I think it was ‘understanding the English translations’, something like that. I found it at the time to be fairly benign (don’t know if it is), but one thing I noticed in the book, even though he didn’t seem to favor one translation, in the comparisons, the KJV certainly won out in being the best translation from what I could see. A translation is just that, but I do not believe any words translated in KJV change the true meaning of the original Scriptures, I watch out for KJVOnlyists (meaning those who say the KJV is THE Bible, above the originals and actually denigrate the original manuscripts as being faulty — imagine that kind of thinking. That would be Gail Riplinger and Peter Ruckman). Sadly, they through their faulty arguments I believe are used by the enemy to trash what I believe to be the most faithful translation we have in English. Just a little input, hope it helps.

  32. Curtis, I looked it up in the online version of the 1828 Noah Webster Dictionary. I noticed definition 3 says: “To change the mind in consequence of the inconvenience or injury done by past conduct.”

    I don’t think this is the correct Biblical definition.

  33. even modern dictionaries like Merian Webster promote a reformed theology to watch out for . use a 1828 Noah Webster dictionary for the correct use of the word “repent “

  34. John John

    We at ExP prefer the KJV and believe that, in a group discussion of Scripture, it is preferred that we use the KJV so we will all be on the same page.

    Of course you may read, listen to and study any book you wish. We are simply aware of some version’s tendency to push their particular ideologies – and we would rather our readers understand that from the get-go.

    Let’s exegete and discuss from the KJV rather than take some editor’s and author’s predigested word for it in another version.

    I held my nose and visited an extrreme Reformed (Calvinist) web site and found this quote. Take it for what it is worth:

    The ESVSB being so broadly eccumenical again gave hesitation because I thought it may not take a stand on this issue. I was wrong again. Eccumenial in this instance, simply means the contributors included Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicals and Charismatic. But the is it overall most definitely Reformed and quite strikingly covenantal in most places. While the Study Bible (perhaps wisely) does not take a firm stand on any millennial view, it does seem to openly affirm some basics of Covenant Theology rather than Dispensationalism or New Covenant Theology.

    Once again, we are not a “KJV Only” group but we prefer King James for discussion purposes.

    John John you are welcome and appreciated here.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  35. Jack,

    “I am not aware that the Administrators at ExP have recommended reading the ESV in order to better understand the KJV.”

    I didn’t get that impression, either. My “problem” is that I am, in fact, listening to that version on audio as of present. Does that disqualify me from participating here? If not “KJV-only”, is your site “No-ESV”? I personally like to compare various translations online when I read Scripture. I am not committed to any specific translation (at least not yet).

    I found the discussion above interesting, and a little confusing: “We are not KJV-only/every other translation is substandard”. I can use the KJV when quoting Scripture if needed to participate.

    At any rate, thank you so much for this site and all those who participate!

  36. John John

    Our primary objection to the ESV is its propensity to lean toward and promote Calvinist/Reformed ideology in its interpretation. Such is often subtle and we believe babes in Christ may not distinguish that as well as more mature believers.

    I am not aware that the Administrators at ExP have recommended reading the ESV in order to better understand the KJV.

    Last time we checked, the list of ESV “authors” include some prominent Calvinists also. That is not a recommendation.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  37. In mulling over the discussion here re: KJV over-the-ESV (or NIV, etc.), I found a paper on the ESV (which I listen to on audio because I love the narrator’s voice and reading), titled “Why the English Standard Version (ESV) Should not become the Standard English Version”.

    Very interesting piece that could probably be written about every translation. The author liked the ESV but found it wanting in many areas. Interestingly, it was the book of HEBREWS that he felt the ESV actually got right as to the spirit and letter of translation.

    One of his “Oops!” translation examples/critiques:

    Prov. 30:26 ESV “the ants are a people not strong, yet they provide their food in the summer; rock badgers are a people not mighty, yet they make their homes in the cliffs;”
    HIS COMMENT: In addition to the tortured word order, the ESV’s use of “people” is very strange. We sometimes joke that animals are people too, but surely ants and rock badgers are “creatures” or “species,” not people.

    Anyway, if I heard that while listening I would “get” what was being said. Reading it would be different perhaps. Since this site is not KJV Only, I trust listening to the ESV won’t disqualify me from participation? At the same time, I am intrigued by your approval of it to perhaps begin learning the KJV. I bought a massive family bible at half-price books a while back (New Standard Reference Bible – Blue Ribbon – Hertel) and its loaded with resources and pictures and maps. And it’s King James!

  38. Preston, I like your discussion of Hebrews 10:26, think it is plausible, and entirely consistent with grace.

  39. Good day,

    might I add another interpretation to the “willfully sinning”.

    First , everyone sins willfully to some degree or another. Paul wrote about this in Romans 7:15-28. He KNEW he was sinning but couldn’t always stop it…thus it is willful.

    Jesus said to the rich young ruler “if thou wilst be PERFECT, sell all you have, give it to the poor, and follow me”

    Well, has everyone here sold all they had and given it to the poor??? probably not. So we ALL have “willfully” not been perfect. Thus breaking the first commandment (ALL thy heart, soul and mind).

    It is 100% agreed that the writer was addressing jewish BELIEVERS (3:1 holy brethren) that were going back under the “levitical law” and sacrificing animals for their atonement. This is what “troddens underfoot” the Son of God.
    – verse 29 says – counting Jesus blood as a unholy thing.

    ALL Heb 10:26 is saying is that when you sin (most sin IS willful), there remains NO MORE sacrifice for sins (no lamb, no goat, no bull). What a TRUE statement!!! Since the cross, there remains NO MORE sacrifice for sins BECAUSE -THAT – “was finished”.
    – if you are not trusting in the gospel – you will have a fearful looking for judgement – -always wondering if you have done enough
    – notice – it shall devour the “adversaries” NOT those whom the author is writing to.

    The whole point of the book was to get the “already saved” people back on track to the gospel. I believe it is Heb 5-6 that called them “babes” when they should have been teachers by now.

    in the same chapter notice Heb 10:14 – 4 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    my two cents.

  40. Dino, I have seen four plausible interpretations, each of which I think are consistent with grace:

    1. The “willful sin” of Hebrews 10:26 is a renunciation of the Christian faith by eternally secure believers and a return to the Jewish sacrificial practices. The “judgment and fiery indignation” (verse 27) is not loss of eternal life, but could involve severe chastening from God in this life and loss of rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. One twist to this is that some would say that the “willful sin” of Hebrews 10:26 is forsaking the assembly, as referenced in Hebrews 10:25. I don’t believe the latter interpretation. I think that forsaking the assembly would increase the likelihood that the Hebrew believers would not hold fast the profession of faith (verse 23), but that forsaking the assembly is not the “willful sin” described in Hebrews 10:26.

    2. The “willful sin” of Hebrews 10:26 refers more generally to rebellion against God by eternally secure believers. Again, the “judgment and fiery indignation” is not loss of eternal life, but could involve severe chastening from God in this life and loss of rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

    3. The “willful sin” of Hebrews 10:26 may refer generally to willful sin by eternally secure believers, for which there is no more sacrifice either needed, or available. But, the “adversaries” are those who do not believe and will experience the “judgment and fiery indignation”, which is eternity in hell. This explanation would most likely need to be attended by an interpretation of Hebrews 10:29 that the phrase “wherewith he was sanctified” refers to Jesus’ sanctification, rather than the believer’s sanctification. John 17:19 speaks to Jesus’ sanctification, as follows: And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

    4. The “willful sin” of Hebrews 10:26 is a rejection of Christ by unbelievers. I think this explanation would require the same view of Hebrews 10:29 as discussed under number 3, above.

  41. Thanks John,

    I was in complete shock after finding out that most of the Independent Fundamental baptist preachers I have been listening to used Chick Tracts and another one described repentance is hating sin… This is damnable.. I have like almost 4 gig of their sermons and I have listened to them since 2012-2013… No wonder I had difficulties understanding the clear gospel of Grace… I’m going to delete everything exepct tom cucuzza and Yankee’s.

    I have another question…

    Hebrews 10:26
    King James Version (KJV)
    For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    I had formulated 2 assumptions here.

    1) A believer that abused grace, willfully sinned and met the harsh judgement of God in his life on earth..

    2) A non-believer who recieved the knowledge of the truth BUT refused to believe it because I came to the conclusion that we are NOT saved by receiving the knowledge, but by Believing (Trusting) in Jesus Christ as savior.

    Is any of my assumptions correct?

  42. Dino, there is a new creation, born of the Spirit. Following is from “What We Believe” from Northland Bible Baptist Church:

    A true child of God has two births; one of the flesh, the other of the Spirit, giving man a flesh nature and a Spirit nature. The flesh nature is neither good nor righteous. The Spiritual man does not commit any sin. This results in a warfare between the Spirit and the flesh, which continues until physical death, or the return of the Lord. The flesh nature of man does not change in any way with the new birth, but can be controlled and kept subdued by the new man. John 3:3-7, Rom 8:8, Isa 64:6, Eph 2:3, 1 Pet 1:23, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 3:9, Rom 7:15-25, Col 2:6-7, Gal 5:16-23.

  43. I have a question on the 2 natures.

    2 Corinthians 5:17
    King James Version (KJV)
    Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    So from how I understand this.. When I trusted in Jesus Christ alone as savior, He saved my soul right? Then does that mean the new creature being referred to in that passage is my soul? is my soul the one born again being referred to in 1 john 3:9?

    1 John 3:9
    King James Version (KJV)
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    So my soul and my flesh got seperated or it literally means that there is “Another Dino” inside my body? A “Spiritual Dino” who cannot sin..?

  44. Nathan, I agree.

    The narrow way is Jesus Christ. Not our behavior, but our reliance on Christ alone for eternal life.

    This is affirmed in John 14:6:

    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Few find it, because so many are insistent on looking to themselves for righteousness.

  45. Johninnc,

    I am not a theologian but I know what this does to my simple thinking. The NKJV gives me the sense that if I am not experiencing difficulty in the way then I have not found it.

  46. Nathan, the NKJV translation of Matthew 7:14 is problematic.

    Most in professing Christendom don’t understand this verse in any translation.

    As to ownership of Bible versions, I believe the KJV is one of the few widely-used versions that is not subject to copyright laws.

  47. IAGrace

    Yes of course. I understood the issue and principles of Justification, Sanctification and Glorification and how saved is used in that context – when JB Hixon was in diapers (maybe before).

    ExPreacherMan is not designed for seminarians but as an Oasis of Grace for the lost, the deceived, the inquisitive and as a tool for believers to grow in Grace. Obviously we are not a resource for seminarians and don’t intend to be – but we welcome them as long as they keep it simple.

    2 Cor. 11:3
    “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”

    I have no time to dig deeply into Hixon but I do appreciate what I have heard of his stand on Grace.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  48. One more thing I forgot to add. What is “difficult” about Matthew 11:28 (KJV) “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”

    Resting does not seem to difficult.

  49. Another interesting Bible version comparison that messes things up a bit.

    Matthew 7:14 (KJV)
    Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Matthew 7:14 (NKJV)
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

    So the “way” in the NKJV is difficult instead of narrow. These two words can mean different things. Just because something is narrow, does that make it difficult? Seems different to me what is being said between the two.

    I am not attacking the NKJV. I am just trying to get at the truth. I also researched and found this on Wikipedia………. “The New King James Version (NKJV) is a modern translation of the Bible published by Thomas Nelson, Inc.[1](a subsidiary of News Corp).”

    So the media has ties to this version………….News Corp? Don’t know if this should be considered or not.

  50. Beholdason….I hope that was of some help to you.
    Nathan…if you are comfortable with the old English, that is a fine choice.
    We need to be into God’s Word daily and if that is where yo uget your feeding, then that is a fine choice.
    I believe we need to be able to defend “Grace” using more than just the KJV. Frankly that is not what the average person we are hoping to lead to Christ will use, and that’s just a fact.
    The gospel be defended in the modern versions as well.
    Jack…I agree Justification is a one-time event…absolutely…do you understand the issue of Justification, Sanctification and Glorification and how saved is used in that context?
    Did Dr Hixson’s explanation help?

  51. Nathan,

    Thanks — We agree — keep it simple — Why use versions of the Bible that may leave some doubt. There IS NO doubt about Salvation in Jesus.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  52. Iaagrace,

    Yes we agree — LS, Calvinism, NIV and the ESV seem to be quadruplets, joined at the hip for unsound teaching. We have documented that for years.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  53. BeholdaSon, Iaagrace,

    Just an important reminder, Justification is a moment in time event which happens the instant a person believes in Jesus Christ for salvation (SAFE).

    Justification is NOT subject to ongoing maintenance by any believer, no matter how 1 Corinthians 1:18 and its companion verse is interpreted or rendered in in ANY translation.

    A moment in time, Jesus Christ speaking:

    John 3:36 (KJV)
    He that believeth on the Son HATH (right now – instantly) everlasting life (SAFE): and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.””

    A moment in time !!! Saved, safe and secure in Jesus eternally! THAT is Good News and removes any reason for concern or angst.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  54. Iaagrace,

    For myself, I choose to keep it simple and stick with the “Are Saved” as written in the (KJV) The other readings leave to much wiggle room as I experienced with the pastor I spoke to. It was like he quickly pulled this idea “beeeeing saved” right out of his back pocket when I simply tried to pose a question eternal security. It has left me gun shy of any other versions for now.

  55. Beholdason…my friend Dr JB Hixson of NotbyWorks..org explained the wording of 1 Corn 1:18 in the NKJV in a way that makes alot of sense to me and hopefully will be a blessing to you as well.

    “It is kind of like if I were to say something like, “That cancer treatment is a great success with those who are being cured.” The idea is “those who are being and in fact have been” cured.

    Some people would call this the “progressive present” use of the present tense, because it describes a state of affairs that begun in time past but is still going on in the present. That is, people are still being saved by the power of the cross.”

  56. “Beholdason…great name!

    This may help:
    This is kind of how I look at that verse as it is worded in the NKJV.
    8 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

    8 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, (who have not believed the gospel) but to us who are being saved (meaning a plural forum of talking about a group of people who have believed the gospel….”Many people …who have believed… vs a group of people..who are perishing (who are rejecting the gospel…still unsaved).
    Does that make sense?

    I think sometimes believers are too quick to on the one hand dismiss the KJV as archiac (with a little study it is not) or too quick on the other hand to cast as “evil” the NKJV and NASB because they do not understand why it is translated that way.
    In some cases infact, NKJV and NASB may be more accurate to the Greek or Hebrew.
    What is my point? You can teach grace alone and reject Lordship Salvation with any of the three above mentioned conservative literal translations.
    For preaching and church teaching (like Adult Sunday School which I teach) I also use the KJV. If I were to plant a church…I would make NKJV/KJV my choice for teaching and preaching (because I am Majority Text ) and continue to consult NASB for reference and devotional reading.

    By the way, to clarify about Ryrie…I like my Ryrie Study Bible most of all not because of the notes…but because of the layout, the excellent cross references and the font…seriously! It’s not really the notes, though many are very helpful.
    I think for a doctrinal study bible…the Scofields (either one new or Old) are still doctrinally the best.

    I love bibles.. love talking about them, there is nothing more important than God’s Word and this discussion has been a blessing.

  57. John,

    That’s encouraging.

  58. Iaagrace, I attended a funeral yesterday. The pastor doing the service said that God promises to transform those of us who are in Christ. I was waiting to hear if he would take it in an LS direction, but he didn’t. He said “Mike (the decedent) has now been transformed.”

  59. No greek Scholar here…but here is how I have heard it explained. The NKJV and NASB In 1 Corn 1:18 translate the greek term as being saved. That is because being saved is in the same tense as perishing, present tense. They say it is actually a more literal translation of the greek. That does not mean it is saying we are “being saved” positionally a little every day or something! No! I will try and find a more technical answer but it does not teach a “Process of salvation” .
    This might help…
    Pastor Dennis Rokser at Duluth Bible Church has written about “Salvation In Three Time Zones”…a must read and our pastor has taught this and it might help.
    We were saved in the past (Justification) ….if we trust in Christ work alone …saved forever…Again…Justification. Saved from Sin’s Penalty.
    SANCTIFICATION. We are being saved…
    If (notice if-conditional) we walk in our nature….We are saved daily from the Power of sin in our lives so saved from sin’s Power. (Sanctification)

    And when we get to heaven…we will saved from sin’s Presence (Glorification)
    All believers are saved from sin’s penalty …Justification….all believers will be saved from sin’s presence in Glory in heaven….Glorification …with the possibility of being sanctified while on earth. Justification and Glorification will happen for every believer with the possibility of Sanctification IF you walk in the Spirit in the new nature.
    I will try and find out more info on the present tense of 1 corn 1:18 as I am too am curious.
    John, you are right on about the NLT.and NIV.

  60. “New Lordship Translation.” – > LOL!

    NIV – New International perVersion

  61. Iaagrace, the NLT is a disaster.

    Luke 13:3 (NLT): Not at all! And you will perish, too, unless you repent of your sins and turn to God.

    Luke 13:3: (KJV): I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    These are radically different messages. The NLT should be called the “New Lordship Translation.”

  62. Beholdason and Nathan

    The problem lies in other versions rather than the KJV. They obviously have a theological axe to grind. Where these authors of other “bibles” get that doctrine is from man.. John Calvin for one and then they mix it into new “bibles” to support their own teaching..

    The Greek word for “saved” is not a continuing effort or action but a done deal, “safe,”

    Saved – Strong’s Concordance:

    sozo, from a primary sos “safe”); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literal or figurative) :- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

    Nowhere does it implies a continuous action on our part or Jesus’s — but a single act and fact “safe”, “to save”, “deliver, protect”

    It was declared as a one time act when Jesus shed his blood on the cross and rose from the grave — and a one time act when we decide to trust Jesus as Savior. Safe in Jesus!!!!!

    Hope this helps.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  63. It is worth noting that coming from a non-LS background of the Independent Baptist variety:

    It was only when I became friends with a John Macarthur/John Piper fan that I started on the downhill slide into apostasy.

    That, followed by a stint in the Anglican and ‘Grace’ churches here pretty much stripped away any and all of the trust I had in Christ alone, and placed it onto my awesome spiritual growth and fabulous ability to converse on deep matters like Calvinism with equally obnoxious zealots.

    Thank God for yanking me out of that mess.

    Nathan… that “being saved” issue is really concerning.

    I remember reading about that recently. Just curious… what does the Greek say about ‘saved’ in those “being saved” verses.

    Any Greek readers here?

  64. Dino, I agree. I would not bother studying stuff from false teachers. If they don’t have the gospel right, nothing else they say matters.

    I also think it’s interesting that this pastor bases his opinion of doctrine on the relative sinfulness of the country associated with such doctrine. The only way to test doctrine is against scripture.

    And, you are right. The gift of God is eternal life – not faith.

  65. I recently spoke with our senior pastor. he threatened me not to say anything against the pentecostal movement because I haven’t given myself an opportunity to study about them since I informed him that I have dedicated my past 2 years (2012-2013) in studying baptist doctrines and teachings. The reason why I don’t want to study about them is because they promote the Use of NIV, they promote the teaching of losing your salvation. Who would want to study something like that? And he again repeated his stand in believing that salvation can be lost and it cannot be lost. How confusing.. He pastors over 600+ folks yet contradicts himself and he also believes one must prove that he is saved… How sad.

    My pastor tried to discredit baptists by telling me “Look at america and the mess they are in… full of rebellion and bad stuff..” I just told myself that the country I live in (Philippines) is not far behind the statistics. There’s no perfect country. all countries will fall apart one way or another if they begin to move away from the proper doctrines of the bible. I still believe there are a number of good bible believing folks in america as there are here also.

    I recently closed my old FB account to open a new one. I have alot of painful memories in my FB. Both church and personal related issues. I can’t stand reading their messages everyday about bible verses that they do not explain very well… I recently immersed myself in studying about the 2 natures and I can understand more thoroughly some of the things contained in the bible..

    Please correct me if I am wrong. I also just learned this week that God does not give us the faith to believe.. But Faith comes from us by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17) and we develop or strengthen our faith in 2 ways. one is by reading the bible and the other, by exercising it just as James 2 explains that we need to exercise our faith to grow as a christian and NOT to maintain salvation. Rather asking for faith, I pray to God to help me strengthen my faith towards him.

    There are alot of CCM songs that support LS. There is this famous CCM song “Give me Faith” and it’s been misinterpred by most of my churchmates thinking that it is God who gives the faith. CCM artists have taken this country by storm and whenever their concert finishes, guys like francis chan steps on the pulpit and preaches a false gospel of works-salvation…. Alot of Christians here look for the “Encounter” or the “Experience”. They may say that they don’t base it on feelings but they do.

    LS appeals to feelings. LS appeals to experience.

  66. Jack you’re right. The more interpretive translations…NIV, NLT and ESV to some extent interpret more than translate. The KJV, NKJV and NASB translate word for word not thought for thought and that makes a difference.

  67. Iaagrace

    Thanks for your observation. You are essentially right..

    Study of the KJV is easier and more accurate when the old time concordances (i.e. Strong’s for instance) have accurate Greek-Hebrew to English for every OT and NT verse. However one must still realize that such concordances and dictionaries are not the inspired word of God — thus they must be studied in context and with the clear understanding of God’s Grace as an overriding principle.

    If we depend on the interpreters of “other bibles,” even though they may be easy to read, each of the interpreters have their own “theological” axe to grind. If you look at the authors of the ESV you will find theologians of every stripe. Example: Ryrie was one of many authors of the original standard ESV and even sells his own study Bible in at least three different flavors; the ESV, NASB and the KJV. But I suspect his inaccurate rendering of James 2 and 1st John are just as false. However, if Ryrie has re-thought those passages in light of God’s Grace — and is now teaching them accurately, he should write and have an apology book tour, proclaiming to the world that he was teaching a false message, was severely wrong and misleading. His apology book should then give the correct exegesis of those passages in light of God’s Grace.

    We have also heard that the NIV is a virtual copy of the original Jehovah Witness “bible”, The New World Translation. However, a disclaimer, I have never personally compared them verse by verse for obvious reasons. FYI, I don’t intend to.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  68. Jack,
    Tell me if I am wrong but I think that is why you and some other teachers/pastors use the KJV, they would rather explain the often difficult words than worry about someone absorbing false doctrine.

  69. Jack and all,
    I do notice a parallel between Lordship heresy and the use of the NIV, NLT and ESV.

  70. Iaagrace and Jude,

    We here at ExP appreciate your discernment in matters of God’s Gift of salvation by Grace alone through one’s faith decision in Jesus Christ alone. We who believe that are rare.

    Yes the NIV is very inaccurate in their re-interpretation of scripture.

    And the ESV is known as the Calvinist Bible. Best to steer away from both.

    Thanks again for your testimonies and comments.

    Thanks to John for linking to our article on Ryrie.

    We agree with this quote from a friend:

    Ryrie’s views of James 2 and 1 John are deal breakers. If I were to hear a pastor advocating Ryrie’s views of these scriptures, I would get up and walk out.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  71. Jude,

    I will pray for you and your family. I know what you mean about the NIV especially. Though the NIV was a help to me when I first got saved (I also grew up Catholic with almost 0 bible…so I struggled with the KJV)…I have since stopped using it, it is too much a paraphrastic!
    Never really used the ESV too much, though I do have one.
    The Calvinists like it too much! 🙂
    It is a rare indeed to find a “Grace” church that REALLY beleives in Eternal Security, they are rare.

  72. Jude, you said: It’s maddening because I feel that most of these people are saved people who once trusted Christ and got saved but have now fallen into error. But they just seem to be blind to it all.

    My comment: That is one possibility. Another is that they have never heard the gospel presented faithfully.

    My wife was interacting with someone the other day on Facebook. He is a deacon in an SBC church. He has been a frequent short-term foreign missionary. His dad is an SBC preacher. Following is one of the more telling quotes from their exchange:

    …so a dispassionate statement of belief, with nothing behind it, and no intention to serve God in any way is all it takes…interesting belief. Never heard that before.

    This guy sounds like someone who had never heard the gospel, but considered himself a believer. I supposed it’s possible that he is saved, and has become confused. But, his testimony is that he “never heard that before.”

  73. Thanks so much guys for the prayers, kind words and recommendations. I’ve only been a Christian for two years. I am so grateful to God for revealing so much truth to me in such a short amount of time. He has brought me out of so much deception, it’s amazing. I got saved when my parents gave me a CD from a popular TV pastor who is pretty clear on the gospel, but teaches the “health and wealth” stuff as well. I was also reading the NIV bible at the time. After only being saved for a couple months, I went into the Lordship teaching of my local church which never quite set well with me but I wasn’t sure why until I was lead to your website and it all became much clearer. Thank you for your ministry.

    Iaagrace- I wouldn’t make KJV an issue if a local church in my area taught the clear gospel. But every single one teaches various forms of Lordship Salvation and every single one uses the ESV or NIV. I’d be ok with the NKJV or the NASB like you said, but I honestly can’t stand the ESV or NIV. I feel like I’m not even reading the Word when I have to use those. Thanks for the preacher you recommended I will check him out for sure. There is one church in my area that says in their statement of faith that they believe in the eternal security of the believer. But after listening to a couple of his sermons he said “If you don’t forgive others you are probably not saved.”

    The church I go to is loosely affiliated with Calvary Chapel. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church and I honestly feel like the gap between the RCC and so called “Bible” churches is getting slimmer. They both teach that Jesus work is not finished. It’s just so disheartening because I, like Pastor Cucuzza, feel that involvement in the local church is vital for me and my family. But my local church can’t even admit that faith in Jesus’ finished work secures our salvation. They seem to think that our “changed life” secures our salvation. It’s maddening because I feel that most of these people are saved people who once trusted Christ and got saved but have now fallen into error. But they just seem to be blind to it all.

    Anyway thanks for listening. It can be a bit lonely standing up for the truth. God bless you all.

  74. Yes..he has some wording that is problematic for us in the Grace Community. I would disagree with his notes in James 2 and 1 John, He takes the test of life view not the test of fellowship view. Except for a few problems like these, I think the Ryrie is a good study bible. As you well know, no human expositor is perfect, not Ryrie, not Scofield. Our eyes need to be on Christ and not on man. Properly used, Study Bibles can be helpful, if you lean on them exclusively, they all can have problems! 🙂
    What is weird about Ryrie is he would agree with our discussions here, he has spoken at the Grace Conference in Chicago, but in his study notes in those places it is confusing.

  75. iaagrace, we agree that the clarity of the gospel is of paramount importance.

    I would urge caution with Charles Ryrie, as some of his positions are not compatible with grace.

  76. Hey Jude,

    I am hearing a song in my head!

    Just a thought brother.. the clear gospel should be the main issue when looking for a church, I would not be so terribly concerned about the KJV per se. In other words if you find a clear gospel church that is not Lordship Salvation and uses another good conservative translation, I would not exclude them. There are some fine churches that for example use NKJV and NASB that are “Clear Gospel/ Grace” churches.
    (Duluth Bible Church, Sugarland Bible Church near Houston)

    Though I use and enjoy my NASB Ryrie Study Bible and it is my personal favorite, the KJV is a wonderful translation. I am weird, I prefer the “Crispness” of the NASB, I think it is the most literal in my opinion.. but I am Majority Text. I like the text behind the KJV. I use both the KJV and NASB when studying etc. (Sidenote: The NASB does not banish to the bottom of the page non-majority text verses as the NIV and ESV do…that is one of the reasons I like it)
    But my point is Jude, I would not make the King James an issue when looking for a “free” grace church.

    Until you find such a church, in addition to the wonderful messages from Tom Cucuzza who is a wonderful teacher, I recommend Dennis Rokser at Duluth Bible Church as well. Duluth’s messages are on on their website at duluthbible.com.

  77. Jude1

    Thanks for your keen discernment. Many of our friends here have experienced the same problem in churches… It simply boils down to false doctrine — “another gospel.” Galatians 1:8-9

    You are among friends here in our Oasis of Grace. Likewise, we are happy you are listening to Tom Cucuzza.

    We appreciate your comment and will pray for you.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  78. Jude, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    I have prayed for those who attend that church, and for you in finding a doctrinally sound church.

  79. This is timely for me guys. My pastor is teaching on 1 John and he was talking about how the letter is a test to see if you really are saved. I feel so discouraged because there is no church in my area that affirms eternal security or uses the KJV. The church in America is in such bad shape. I had a congregation member at my church look at me like I was from another planet when I told him a person does not have to be baptized to be saved. And another boldly declared to me that a person who does not forgive could never have actually been saved. Why can’t they admit that Jesus paid for every sin and there is nothing we can do to earn salvation or keep it because he is the one securing our salvation for us? I’m grateful for the admins and commenters here. Thank you for recommending Tom Cucuzza. I don’t know what I’d do without his podcasts.

  80. Bob, that’s so sad. Yet, I used to sit in churches hoping I might be saved, but not really knowing.

  81. Our friend Kees Boer (FBC – 1981, now a missionary in Bolivia) grew up in Calvinist Holland, and tells of church congregations there full of people who are sure they are NOT among the “elect”! Yet they continue to come to church, without hope! How sad!

  82. William,

    Thanks — we totally agree with you in doctrine —

    *EXCEPT* We prefer the use of the KJV. {edited by Jack who mistakenly typed NIV}

    The KJV is so much better, so much easier to exegete, more accurate regarding the original languages, fewer translation errors — and just plain better to me.

    Your last verse repeated — but this time from the KJV Bible:

    Romans 10:17
    “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

    Clear and simple, classic language rather than common and, until so many “translations” were published, it was universally preferred.

    We are not a KJV only group but our preference for the KJV is basically the same as reported in Dr. Tom Cucuzza in his excellent article here at ExP, supplied by him at our request. This way, quoting the KJV when we discuss verses, we are all on the same page, so to speak:

    Dr Cucuzza’s Article:
    https://expreacherman.com/2011/10/28/why-i-use-the-king-james-version/

    Thanks again for your excellent points.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  83. Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists just love to EISEGETE God’s Word rather than EXEGETE IT.

  84. Jack,

    I totally agree with your comment, “The worst part of the LS dilemma is that most of them falsely claim their god gave them their faith.

    Faith is not the Gift of God. Eternal Life IS the Gift of God. Romans 6:23

    But LSers assert that if a person is not living up to their expectations and standards (works) then they are not saved. So, a logical person would have to conclude that the “faith” their god “gave” them to “save” them is a faulty and an inadequate “faith.”

    That’s enough confusion, as Tom Croley said, for them to get up, walk out of the church and deposit their Bible at the door.

    This is a sad “theology” so many have fallen for.”

    My comment – Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists are one and the same. They always claim that “faith” is a gift that comes directly from God and bypasses the preacher. This then implies that “regeneration precedes faith” which literally puts the cart in front of the horse.

    Thank God for Romans 10:14 – How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

    Romans 10:17 – Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

  85. very Nice outline Nathan
    nice catch

  86. John,

    Yes, “sovereignty”, a word not even in the KJV Bible, is their primary building block used in an effort to support all the rest of their un-Biblical T.U.L.I.P. teaching.

    You may recall our article a couple of years ago on the Calvinist catchword sovereignty. It shows vividly what a fake the premise is and how they use it proudly but erroneously..

    https://expreacherman.com/2012/03/08/sovereignty-calvinist-and-lordship-salvation-crutch-or-catchword/

    What a sad and hopeless religion is presented in those deadly twins, the dogma of LS/Calvinism.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  87. 3 years ago I approached a pastor about a confusing point he made in his message on Sunday morning. In his message he was eluding to examining yourself to make sure your faith is genuine. I don’t remember his exact words but I do remember what I asked him after the service and what he said that has prevented me from going back ever since.

    I quoted to him Acts 16:31 “And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

    I said to him that I thought this verse states that you only need to believe to be saved. His immediate response was “No, we are being saved.” His voice really emphasized the word “being.” He said “we are BEEEEING saved.”

    I couldn’t figure out what he meant when not backing up Acts 16:31 right out as believing for salvation as a one time event. It sounded like he didn’t agree with it. It haunted me for 2 years until I found what I think he was talking about. I decided to do a word search on that phrase “being saved” in the Bible to see if I could find what it meant. In almost every version of the Bible I could find the words “being saved” hooked together in a couple of verses in 1 and 2 Corinthians.

    1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (New International Version)

    2 Corinthians 2:15 “For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing”
    (New American Standard Bible)

    When I read these verses in almost every different translated version of the Bible the word “being saved” is there for these verses.

    The only version of the Bible that I could NOT find the 2 words together “Being Saved” was in the (KJV)

    1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” (KJV)

    2 Corinthians 2:15 “For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish” (KJV)

    The (KJV) says “ARE SAVED”

    It appears now that the pastor I was talking to could have been insinuating an LS position, possibly based on what he thought these verses were saying in the other versions of the Bible “Being Saved” or in other words “On the way of salvation” as the Message (MSG) version states.

    I will stick with the (KJV) for clarity on this from now on.

    In Christ Forever,
    Nathan

  88. Jack, I just came across a website from one of our would be Calvinist/LS visitors, that has the following excerpts:

    Even the faith by which sinners lay hold of Christ is the work of sovereign grace, not the work of sinful nature.

    and

    We believe any “faith” that does not involve a thorough turning from sin and a purpose of heart to obey Christ’s commands [repentance] is not the faith the gospel demands. Human works form no part of the basis of our justification before God.

    My comment: The second false statement is predicated on the first false statement. If their god gives them the faith to believe, it follows that the faith will “work” (i.e., “make them start being good”). No one holding to such a false view could ever know whether or not he was saved. To say that “faith” must “involve a thorough turning from sin”, but then maintain that “human works form no part of the basis of our justification before God” is utterly contradictory.

    Calvinism/LS is salvation by works, under the guise of “God’s Sovereignty.” The Bible speaks of people who recognize Christ’s Lordship and they work, work, work, but still end up in hell, because they have never believed in Christ ALONE as Savior.

    Matthew 7:22-23:

    [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

  89. The worst part of the LS dilemma is that most of them falsely claim their god gave them their faith.

    Faith is not the Gift of God. Eternal Life IS the Gift of God. Romans 6:23

    But LSers assert that if a person is not living up to their expectations and standards (works) then they are not saved. So, a logical person would have to conclude that the “faith” their god “gave” them to “save” them is a faulty and an inadequate “faith.”

    That’s enough confusion, as Tom Croley said, for them to get up, walk out of the church and deposit their Bible at the door.

    This is a sad “theology” so many have fallen for.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

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