Lighthouse Trails has a very interesting and disturbing article on Rick Warren’s New Age “Daniel Plan.” I have included some excerpts from the article along with my comments .
Do these names and terms sound familiar? Are they names and terms you would associate with a world wide Christian “evangelistic” movement?
Peter Drucker (friend and mentor to Rick Warren), Michelle Obama, Bill Gates (Warren friend and World wide Health Care Reform Advocate), New Age Physicians, Dr. Mark Hyman, Dr. Mehmet Oz, Dr. Daniel Amen (New Agers all), the concept of Social Transformation, Wellness, Success Statistics, “Human Capital,” Church member’s personal, confidential health records kept in Rick Warren’s Daniel Plan Data Bank.
Quote from Rick Warren:
“The search for self becomes a search for health, for wholeness….”
My friends, this is, without any doubt, a primary New Age, Mystic Teaching.
Quote from the article:
“Rick Warren has now plunged into a role as Change Agent for health care reform in America. It is significant that he chose some genuine New Age gurus to be his partners.” (Dr. Mark Hyman, Dr. Mehmet Oz, Dr. Daniel Amen)
If you ever wondered about the ultimate goal of Rick Warren, it is obviously NOT to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to unbelievers. Here is another ominous quote from the article:
“With Rick Warren at the helm, the CHURCH is now in the BUSINESS of health care REFORM. This is the 3-legged stool. It is the integration of church/state/corporate that business guru Peter Drucker (Rick Warren’s mentor) proposed as the method for restructuring Society.”
[…]
It appears that the premise for Warren’s wholesale sellout to the New Age movement was described in:
“Marilyn Ferguson’s The Aquarian Conspiracy, published in 1980. This book was ‘an important New Age manifesto [that attempted] to announce and popularize what the New Agers chose to publicly display in their Movement.'”
[…]
“Three decades after Ferguson’s book came out, the evangelical world has comfortably adopted the ‘body-mind-spirit’ worldview of the New Agers. Many eastern mystical ‘holistic health’ ideas were simply re-written into biblical terminology and passed off to evangelicals as higher forms of spirituality. Today, meditation, contemplation, drumming, etc. are becoming commonplace. This is the face of the seeker-sensitive church. By accommodating itself to the eastern worldview, the Church fools itself into thinking it is more ‘culturally relevant.’ So the next step in the seeker-sensitive journey is for the Church to become an ‘agent of ‘cultural renewal.'”
[…]
[Warren’s vision for the Church] “is acting as a Change Agent working in collaboration with the State and Corporate Business to facilitate transformation.”
[…]
“In [Obama advisor] Peter Drucker’s utopian world only those who possess “human capital” are deemed worthy citizens, and those assessed without it have no safe place in Society. Scary. . .”
Could this be the same as ObamaCare Death Panels?
Believers in Jesus Christ MUST be aware of the way Satan uses “pastors” for his devious ends.
Warren’s Video of the “Daniel Plan
Therefore, “Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.” Ephesians 6:11
“The Truth: ‘And Jesus said unto them, ‘I am the Bread of Life: he that cometh to Me shall never hunger’. . .” (John 6:35)
Eternal Life For You <click
Notes From A Retired Preacher 
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I am in agreement with you on the whole tongue and move of the holy spirit issue. I have heard plenty of good teaching on the matter and ex preachers of the penecostal movement. I wish I could convince the rest of my family, I can only now pray about it as Ive talked my head off on the matter. I do like shepperds chapel arnold murry and going along with him, though some things he speaks of others my argue about , but I like straight bible teaching and his approach. Examine all things, even the words of Paul said ring clear to me. Let no man deceive you Jesus said, so we have to hold all things to the word. I love learning about the ancient history, what they were doing, their traditions, etc. to help understand what was being said to whom, where, why, etc. Even rapture theory to me needs closer examination, as at this point I dont want the antichrist convincing folks to fly away some how, I believe its more an instant transformation from physical to spiritual, snatched away, twinkling of the eye, instant. I dont get into pre mid post anything just that event that transforms into spirit, that protects from the wrath comming prior to the millinium. satan probably. has his own counterfeit rapture as well. The new agers and these folks taking on these counterfeit spirits all seem to think they can transport now into heaven, or bring it down. Then you have so many others waiting for giant ufo’s, and star fleets. I listen to NO prophets, only the words of the old ones and know there are the two yet to come, I hope Im transformed , lol.. xoxo thanks for your prayers I have wrote other pastors that never responded. I wish you well in your retirement, and still working on your garment. I need to spend more time in the field and giving to others balance it all out nicely.
Hello again Marlane’a:
Thanks for your word of testimony about your process of removing yourself from false teachings which are a big part of Pentecostal churches. You mentioned that from now on you are going to stick to reading the Word of God and allowing the Holy Spirit to make it clear to you. That is great and we pray that you do not allow yourself to become drawn back to strange seducing spirits. Keep reading and studying the Bible. That’s the best way to learn and follow God’s will.
Much of the justification for the Pentecostal movement is taken, wrongfully and out of historical context, from Acts Chapter 2. Keep in mind that the events of Acts 2 comprised a one-time-only event, never to be repeated, to launch the early church. Dr. J. Vernon McGee, in his Thru The Bible Radio sermon on Acts 2, commented that the Apostles’ preaching was heard by the crowd in recognizable KNOWN LANGUAGES of the day (dialektos in Greek, from which we get the English “dialects”). How different is this from the “unknown” tongues of Pentecostalism today. And, McGee commented, if you read Acts Chapter 2 carefully, the apostles DID NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES. The spoke in their own Galilean dialect (verse 7), most likely of their main language of Aramaic. However, the crowd HEARD THEM or better stated, UNDERSTOOD THEM, in their own various dialects. To reiterate, there was NO speaking in tongues, only HEARING or UNDERSTANDING in tongues, which were KNOWN dialects of that day.
Yes, the pastor is so kind, does so much good work for the community, preaches well out of the word, encourages all members to read it daily, preaches to live it out daily, reach out etc. His statement to the congregation was that this cloud was in the sanctuary; he was alone, became frightened, dropped to his knees, asked the spirit had he committed sin or error, he said this spirit revealed to him , that many would be saved this year at this place. That was his testimony the following worship service. With some penecostal background in my past, I always thought there was a holy force out there too and begged for the gifts. I never got touched so to speak, even listened to sid roth and tried to quote learn tongues, let em roll and the spirit will come down on ya sid roth said. I did this and I felt some presence above my head, but something always made it flee, as it had several times in the past.
I always cried, felt I was not worthy, begged for forgiveness , then figured it just was not my time, would wipe the tears and just move on. Even in childhood my sister and I would beg for tongues/gifts in prayer rooms with all the old fasioned penecostal ladies; we would cry a bit but thats it, nothing else while we saw other kids having manifestations; talk about guilt trips lol. Six months ago, after re-evaluating everything I believed to his word, I changed my mind about all of the penecostals and their ways of doing things though I still as Paul states seek the gifts, ask but not the show, as the pagans, etc. When I asked the Lord to purge me from error, false teachings, lead me to all truth, I asked for whatever gifts he wanted me to have. I had a total renewed hunger for everything in his word and a passion for discernment. I asked for my eyes to be opened as I wanted to know what was from him and what wasnt, I said a prayer to cast out demons and I actually saw things , shadowy things rise and flee. After seeing all this crazyness in churches I wanted to know what was behind it, could I see it, to help others. I have not seen anything since cleaning my own house, but I have not spent time in this church but two ocassions/good Friday and one other, I did not see anything. If my sister and kids are just bent on going to see kilpatrick in Oct. and he surely has been drunken, laughin, slain, all of this stuff, I want and pray to see something to warn. My efforts may also be in vain, I just pray and talk to my family involved , and tell them what scripture says vs. what is going on today……I pray they’re eyes and ears would open. I would love to be a watchman, but I am not eager to run and start yelling until I have spent a great deal more in his word….a work for him I will do, but I want to be absolutely sure……the call is coming from our savior. I want to be absolutely sure any gift given is from him too. For about a year I have felt this constant, pulling, I cannot describe, one that I could feel pulling me out of the bed, beating down on me , tugging at me, like something just has to be done, I dragged my feet, fearful then one day in the shower, I heard a small voice, inside or outside I cannot say for certain, but the voice said , hear ye, O Israel……
Marlane’a
Your description of that church sounds like a place to avoid. “Clouds and smoky things” are not evidence of the Holy Spirit but it sounds like manipulations of the charlatans of International House of Prayer (IHOP) and similar groups.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Thank you for your kind comment; I have always believed the same, as I see they seem to be in some sort of bondage, always struggling with the sin issues. It seems to make them a slave to the issue, and they appear to have strongholds that keep them bound to more church, more seeking the holy spirit, more works in my thinking. Like they need some sort of emotional charge to make them feel better, though short lived. My dear sister seems to get mad when people do not go, and she feels I am against them because I am not religious, I believe in the simplicity of the finished work of the cross and studying the word, and the works needed are giving the same compassion to others as we are given it, not just studying it. I believe the work of the holy spirit is quiet, in the hearts of each ind. person, not something you call down into a sanctuary at an altar call. I am hearing reports of clouds, smoky things entering some sanctuaries. I am not sure what spirit that is. I do pray it is holy, for their sake, but I am not yet convinced it is if there is error.
The AOG churches also require that you believe that you could lose your salvation. So that is another error they have always carried.
Marlane’a ,
Thanks for your comments.. I note that you state that the Assembly of God (AOG) in Ft. Wayne was a “safe church” but has since been infiltrated.
It is no surprise that the church is falling for error. If one looks up the Statement of beliefs of the AOG, among other things, he will find:
1. They believe in the un-scriptural teaching of “speaking in tongues.”
2. The unscriptural teaching of “healing is in the atonement.”
3. The us of the word “repentance” without adequate explanation of the true meaning of the word, thereby indicating a “work” for salvation.
4. The AOG believes in the unscriptural teaching of a separate “baptism in the Holy Spirit.” As reported in their statement: “All believers are entitled to and should ardently expect and earnestly seek the promise of the Father, the baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire..”
The link to the erroneous doctrines of AOG:
http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/
They proudly proclaim: “These are non-negotiable tenets of faith that all Assemblies of God churches adhere to”
It is no wonder that the AOG churches are degrading themselves into the anti-Biblical teachings and practices of IHOP (International House of Prayer) and other way-out charismatic groups, teachers and theories.
We are happy to see that you recognize the errors of that religion and have come out from among them.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Besides the obvious heresy of recent times, I also include false teachers of old; there are too many works promoters, grace abusers, self rightous controllers, those who have borne false witness to instill fear to control, etc. What does it mean to each one of us, to be pure in heart, to have a heart like Christ, and what does the word say about what is the right religon, we know what the word says, one unblemished by the world, many who think they have been rightous for decades have usually given more lip service and looking at others to do what they don’t even do, and beg for money from the poor, even demanding it. It is not business as usual anymore, we must examine ourselves, be pure at heart, always serving others, and giving as he has done for us and commands it. It is time to shed this world and the flesh, and work on our spiritual robes. There is nothing new under the sun, from ancient times till now, the word is full of life’s lesson’s; stop relying on men to teach and start reading the word; learn some Greek and learn some history taken in right context and know what applies to us today; pray to be his elite, and thank him for the millennium, which I believe will be for the non elect, but saved, the time for grace will then be over, so be prepared to do a lot of works.
Welcome Marlane’a! Thanks for joining our discussion today!
You give some strong warnings about apostasy in the church today. Yes, false teaching is thriving and snowballing in recent years. And I agree with you that we are getting very near to the return of Christ. God certainly has been patient.
Could it be the word means to come out of the institutionalized church, and come out of her my people, do not take part of her plagues? We are now in a total state of confusion, aka babylon.
I do not see in the bible where there is some great revial prior to the antichrist, in fact the oposite, the apostate church, the falling away. My family in very active in this church and they do good works for the community, but I fear satan may be moving in. I have been watching for a while now, it’s very very heart breaking; I am very concerned for the body, and I pray it isn’t so, but I cannot ignore the fact that we are in that season. I do not see many evangelicals educating the church today on discernment, nor do I see them warning of the false wonders, signs and miracles, simply because it seems these things cannot be in God’s churches, they seem to preach they are all safe……and seem more concerned in evangelizing, building more, and growing more. To unite? to whom? under what spirit?
I see Rick Warren’s books being promoted in a large first Assembly of God here in Fort Wayne, Indiana, then I found out IHOP is there weekly, not sure if they are soaking in God’s glory yet, and now I see John Kilpatrick is doing a revival there in Oct. titled digging up the wells of azuza. He has been drunk in the spirit, holy laughter, and all these strange manifestations. I find all this a shame as this church has been a safe church for many years but I feel satan’s revivals are thriving.
Correction to the above: “He agrees that these folks are false and harmful, but sees these articles that expose as slanderous.” Omit “doesn’t”. Forgive the typo.
Done, thanks for writing
As usual, Ex-Preacherman has given me the courage and confirmation I needed to keep on exposing Rick Warren for the spoof that he is. I keep getting taken to the wood shed by one person in particular every time I post something negative about the social gospel, Obama, or recently, Rick Warren. He’s a Christian man too (the one who keeps taking me to task) and I don’t get it. He agrees that these folks are false and harmful, but sees these articles that expose as slanderous. He calls it, “throwing the baby out with the bath water”. Oh how I hate that phrase. This friend of mine is very intense about helping the helpless, which we all know, next to His Son is the heartbeat of God. So what does God say about this? Do we continue to work with dominionists and keep our mouths shut, keeping the peace, or do we separate and expose? Is there harm done to the lost and needy, homeless, widowed, and orphaned if we separate and expose the social gospel? I feel like he kind of protects these wolves putting them under Ephesians 4:31 where God tells us not to slander or speak evil. What? Kind of confusing, I know… 🙂 Daisy
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Michelle,
Thanks for dropping in and commenting.
We agree that God’s Word, The Bible, should be our only source of doctrine — and rather than casting stones and passing judgment on a person, we attempt to be guided by God’s Word and warn the bretheren.
“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;” 2 Timothy 4:2-3
We attempt to use discernment as we “reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.”
We see folks like Warren, Chan and MacArthur deceiving believers and unbelievers, thus we are concerned. While they all have huge audiences, books, tapes, etc, this medium is the only platform we have to share the Truth — so this is what we use.
Michelle, I am sure, that if you have family and children, you do warn them of error and traps in their spiritual and physical life. That is admirable and expected. We try the same here on a slightly different scale to the family of Faith.
We do sincerely appreciate your comment and pray you will continue to visit and comment as you feel led.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
What I find more troubling than anything is the sole use of a third party source for reference. There is only one publication in the world that should ever be solely trusted, and that is the Bible. I’m not saying that I agree or disagree with Mr. Warren’s position. I just find it rather disturbing the number of intelligent Christians who continue to believe things just because it’s in print. Also, I’m pretty sure that casting stones and passing judgement on a person most of us don’t even know is extremely hypocritical of the “Christian” stance most people are claiming here.
Daniel Plan, Pearl, is another issue.
With all due respect, Scotty, I don’t agree that it’s “another issue” but an extension of it. Warren is considered a guru because his teachings perfectly align with other gurus. He is not a “liberal” theologian, but an apostate.
As a matter of fact, I think this would be a great time for some one more knowledgeable than I to lay out what distinguishes a “liberal” theologian from a “conservative” one.
I’ve heard Vernon McGee refer to liberals many times, and it always comes down to them denying that Jesus was (1) born of a virgin; (2) that He was God in the flesh; and (3) that He rose from the dead. These outright apostates (liberal is a misleading term) are teaching in most seminaries.
Jan, you said “So many others don’t have anywhere they can go in their area.”
We’re there. We have church at home, and Vernon McGee is our pastor.
It appears that Warren’s goal and his judgment about how to get there are items we should question.
Quite a few years ago, when Warren and the forces behind him first started the Purpose Driven push, my daughter in TN called (she will admit she is no spiritual giant but she does have Biblical discernment). Her Baptist church was beginning Warren’s 40 day study of PD Life plan. Her statement was, “Dad, there is something wrong with this.” She investigated and was shocked — the result was that she and many of her friends left that church. The true application of the Gospel was nowhere to be found in PD.
Last year she returned to the same church — they had abandoned Warren and the PD plan and the church came back together as a Biblical community. Actually that close-to-home event is what piqued my interest in investigating Warren and his programs.
Yesterday I received a newsletter from The Berean Call which quoted one of Warren’s advisers on the Daniel Plan, Dr. Mehmet Oz, (famous surgeon and a host on the Oprah’s Radio XM channel). Oz is an enthusiastic supporter and promoter of the New Age, mystical, cultic “therapy” and teaching of Reiki “massage therapy.” Berean Call took these excerpts were from the “Reiki Digest.”
In one of his radio programs, Oz announced, Reiki “broadens dramatically the spectrum of where we might be able to go in our bodies, and this is the area of energy medicine. ”
Oz continued, “[M]y wife Lisa is a Reiki master, so when the kids get sick, or when I’m out of sorts, she actually comes by, I can’t even tell when she’s treating me, sometimes she secretly treats me, if she thinks I’m in a bad mood and I see hands moving around, but I actually feel the heat.” Oz recommended to his vast audience, “Try Reiki” as the #1 “Oz’s Order”
In my humble opinion, Reiki is a mystical, demonic cult and I would never recommend it. One might ask, “Why would Warren consort with and recommend Dr. Mehmet Oz in Warren’s Daniel Plan”?
One more time, it illustrates Rick Warren’s lack of Biblical discernment and his leading the sheep astray into un-biblical mysticism.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
This is INCREDIBLY presumptuous and a judgment you are not qualified to make.
Presumptuous? Nope, experience.
Daniel Plan, Pearl, is another issue.
Your story so much resembles others I’ve read. Truly heartbreaking.
Have you found another fellowship?
Thanks Pearl. It was very difficult for us, though by no means the worst of the stories out there. I am grateful to have found a church pastored by a man who recognized the fleshly basis of Warren’s approach and therefore never got involved in it. However, he lists in the LS direction and that makes me unhappy. A lot of us who left our old church ended up here as it is the one of the very few churches in our county that are remotely Biblical anymore. I am just grateful to have somewhere to go! So many others don’t have anywhere they can go in their area.
JanH
Blaming Rick Warren would sure ease the guilt of a situation of poor behavior within a congregation. Why else would they go for some external help if there wasn’t something going on to begin with. There was a problem long before the PD life! I’ve traveled much and have seen many a church get along fine without some program dreamed up by another.
This is INCREDIBLY presumptuous and a judgment you are not qualified to make.
All that leaves is that every single church that has been “transformed” by Rick Warren’s Purpose Driven paradigm was a sick church to begin with. That is incredibly naive and it sets you up for deception as you don’t understand, or don’t respect, the dynamic of apostasy. Nobody went “outside” the church for “help.” Warren’s teaching was brought in and sold to the leadership. But even if they had, if I were sick and went to a doctor who misdiagnosed me and got me on a program that destroyed what health I did have, yes, I WOULD blame the doctor for his part in harming me.
Did I leave bitter and filled with animosity?
This is equally presumptuous and unwarranted. The lot of us who left have put the events behind us in our personal lives and moved on. We obviously do not appreciate what happened are are not glad about it, but we do not allow bitterness to consume us. However, when Warren does come up, I will tell what happened so people will know, if I deem it worth my while to do so.
I really don’t appreciate your judgmental attitude on a situation you weren’t involved in with people you don’t know. And for someone who really doesn’t like how Christians can’t seem to get along, it is completely out of line. The least you can do is respect my testimony, even if you don’t like it or think there could be more to it, especially if you want to see better relating between believers. That would have gone a long way.
Scotty, if all you can see is me, or anyone else, bitterly blaming Rick Warren for what happened at their church then we have a problem. I wonder who would be able to tell you an “anti Warren” testimony that would not just get chucked in that bin. There are tons of such testimonies out there. If there is one, I’d like to know about it. If not, then I guess we are done here.
You are defending this man who you say you don’t even support against people who have been hurt by his teachings being practiced in our churches, which makes no sense at all, and revictimizes the victims. You don’t support him, yet you are not going to take my testimony seriously and dismissively say my church was sick and imply that I am bitter. I hope you understand that I won’t submit myself to that kind of treatment further. I have had enough trouble from Warren and discussions related to him. I am not going through it again.
JanH
Hi, Scotty ~
In light of the personalities involved with the Daniel Plan, I seriously doubt this. Btw, does that go for McLaren as well?
I think your willingness to give him the benefit of the doubt is very charitable. I just don’t believe this one is worthy of your pearls of kindness.
Hi Jan ~
Your story so much resembles others I’ve read. Truly heartbreaking.
Have you found another fellowship?
As for Warren’s name being on the list of gurus (actually celebrated on this new age site), I think speaks volumes. Do you honestly think Jack could appear on the same list? No. And why is that? Is it really about good works, or is it about the message accompanying those “good works”?
Pearl,
I forgot to address this in my last thoughts.
I would suggest the reason that Warren’s face appears on that site is, that it is an attempt to lend credibility to themselves, not Warren. Rick Warren is a big name, many will attempt to latch on to that star in one form or another.
I saw and experienced first hand what Rick Warren’s teaching does to a congregation.
Jan,
My first thought on that statement is, it’s easy to blame Rick Warren. I would suspect that the congregation wasn’t that healthy to begin with.
Blaming Rick Warren would sure ease the guilt of a situation of poor behavior within a congregation. Why else would they go for some external help if there wasn’t something going on to begin with. There was a problem long before the PD life! I’ve traveled much and have seen many a church get along fine without some program dreamed up by another.
I’ve left quite a few churches because I couldn’t accept what was going on there. Did I leave bitter and filled with animosity? Nope, I just moved on. Sometimes that is what one has to do.
The group you wrote about was to blame, certainly not Rick Warren!
You walk away, shaking the dust from your sandals as you go. Harboring bitterness, contempt anger towards Warren yields nothing. If people chose to be asses, that’s of their own choosing, Warren didn‘t make that happen!,
You can glean all that from just this one line? Amazing!!
Actually, I gleaned that from observation and experience, as I alluded to further along in my comment. The quote is a summary and my experience shows it to be accurate. I did not just pull that out of the air. There is a context to it.
I saw and experienced first hand what Rick Warren’s teaching does to a congregation. And my (our) experience has been repeated many times over in other churches. Many, many people have had to leave or been dismissed from their churches because of him. Sometimes the pastor of the church they are asked to leave will “help” them find a new one. But sometimes folks in leadership positions are not accepted as leaders in the new church the pastor of the old church “helps” them find, as the pastor of that church has been “warned” about these “Sanballats”/trouble makers. Thankfully, I have not heard of that happening to anyone who left our old church. But when I would hear people’s accounts of what happened to them (i.e.- from Lighthouse trails or Crosstalk, etc.), I totally got it–feeling like their church had been hijacked (it had), their positions suddenly done away with, and without even discussing it with them (I came across an account of a church organist who came in to practice one weekend only to find the organ was gone. No one bothered to tell her, let alone ask her about doing this.) I knew just what they were talking about since it happened to many of us as well.
I saw the power grab, the deacons set on the board who made it their purpose to fight and claw for what the pastor wanted done, irrespective of anyone else’s take. I saw the formation of a special, elite group formed (the three deacons and their wives, of course, were in it, along with a few others) who were the pastor’s front line against any and all “assaults” against his agenda. Another woman who left told me of a meeting where this group was sitting between the pastor and the congregation “like a wall of defense.” I saw how this elite group was given all the jobs of making the agenda happen and promoting it. It became the same faces making announcements all the time. And no questions or opposition would be tolerated. That was made clear from the pulpit by one of these deacons, in no uncertain terms and again at another time by another leader. If you did not like what was happening YOU had a problem and would not be listened to, but dismissed. Don’t even bother complaining because they didn’t want to hear it and you’re nuts to have a problem with this anyway. The one faithful deacon (who eventually had to leave, too) told terrible accounts of the deacons’ meetings with the pastor’s men. And everyone in the group was like that. They were just HIS. Like his personal pit bulls.
And all of this was in a congregation that did not ever become officially Purpose Driven. And why not? Because “it wouldn’t work here.” There were enough members in high places who were against it (especially since it means leaving your denomination behind–no more Baptist, and no more congregational rule) that they were able to keep that from happening. But the leaven was still in operation.
I saw a missionary, who was the son of one of the mission’s committee members and a dearly loved member of our church, have his support taken away because the group that was supporting him on their own was told they could not do that. Why? Because the pastor didn’t want to have to cut a second check for him (he was also supported directly by the rest of the church). He didn’t want to deal with the accounting on that. Never mind that this group wanted to support him and it was their own special ministry. Then it changed to, if they wanted to support a missionary, they must support a missionary to a particular people group.
I saw the people manipulated, again from the pulpit, like nobody’s business to give gobs of money for a building the pastor decided he wanted built. This was part of his “vision.” The thing was sold and oversold to the congregation and those who did not want to give were made to feel they were disobeying God. The same woman I mentioned before had a terrible time with this as she only wanted to do what God wanted but didn’t feel that the building was a good idea because of the cost it would take to maintain it after it was built. It didn’t seem wise to her given the level of giving as things were. She struggled in confusion over what to do for a long time. Finally she and her husband gave to the building fund. She regrets that now.
I saw so many things happen that should not happen to a congregation that were a direct result of Rick Warren’s teaching. There was much confusion, many people were hurt. Many did not know what was going on, but they knew something was wrong somewhere and were made to believe the problem was them. Needless to say, many left.
I shudder to think what would have happened had the pastor won and the church become Purpose Driven for real (BTW, from the pulpit this pastor identified our church as Purpose Driven, clean out of the blue. When the Indonesian tsunami hit, he told us we were going to join with “other Purpose Driven churches” in sending financial relief. It was definitely his intention to make that church a PD church.)
This is all standard operating procedure in transforming a church to PD. It is just done. Never mind what the voting congregation wants. They do not vote in PD churches. It is just done to them. The pastor’s vision, which is always assumed to be God given, becomes the purpose that drives the church. Everyone is there to implement it, like little worker bees. That is what it means to be a member in a PD church. You fulfill the pastor’s vision. If you oppose it or him, you are a Sanballat, opposing the will of God and are dealt with accordingly, first by attempting to win you over. If that doesn’t work then you are encouraged to leave.
I won’t say it is impossible for anyone to come to Christ in the midst of such a situation. It is true that God can and does bring people to himself regardless of what Rick Warren is doing. But if anyone comes to Christ, or is drawn closer to Christ in the midst of Rick Warren’s teaching, it is my opinion that it is IN SPITE of him, not BECAUSE of him. God may not be hindered from saving people because of Rick Warren, but given the level of destruction in that man’s wake, I would say that what he does matters very much indeed.
I totally hear you on the disagreeing disagreeably issue with Christians, Scotty. Arguing for argument’s sake is not helpful to anyone and does give Christians a bad name, especially with the infantile behavior Christians can display sometimes in their defense of the faith. But please do not think that anyone who seems to be doing something that looks like it does some good to someone somewhere should just be allowed to go on when there is testimony after testimony of harm he does, too. Jesus may have left the ninety and nine to find the one that was lost. But He did not trample over the ninety and nine in doing so, as Rick Warren’s teaching an ministry system has done to so many of the Lord’s own.
JanH
Well, Scotty, I have to agree with you for the most part on the bickering which takes place on many watch blogs (I recently expressed these exact sentiments on another blog), and I sure don’t mean to drag you in on another one. I’m sorry to have confronted you with my own nagative tone.
My concern expressed at that other blog was what began as a legitimate need for watchmen on the wall has turned into just about every one wanting to be one. After all, it is much more interesting to get in the mud and read about Rick Warren’s latest shenanigans than it is to read about the attributes of Jesus Christ, and commit ourselves to diligent bible study. By and large, it has become a glorified flesh fest.
Also, a danger I see is that the unpleasant tones (over use of sarcasm, varying degrees of arrogance, anger), with which much of the bad news is communicated really turns off a lot of people standing on the sidelines, unbelievers and believers alike. It may very well cause the opposite effect, as your expressed opinion testifies: while you haven’t claimed to support Warren, you appear much more sympathetic to him than those who are stumbling in their sincere, albeit fleshly, attempts to warn the body. After all, Warren’s, et al, preaching is so much more “loving”, “positive” and “tolerant”.
As for Warren’s name being on the list of gurus (actually celebrated on this new age site), I think speaks volumes. Do you honestly think Jack could appear on the same list? No. And why is that? Is it really about good works, or is it about the message accompanying those “good works”?
Again, I agree with your overall analysis. But, I’ll not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Pearl,
Because numii.net likes some things that Warren says, does not a “guru” make.
Listen, I’m not a convert. I don’t like much of what Warren says because I think it a bit liberal for my tastes.
I don’t care for Warren because he seems to seek the media limelight a bit too much for my tastes.
I’ve read “The Purpose Driven Life” and I think it’s hokey but, in someway, if it possibly brings somebody closer to Christ I think it great. If it gets some armchair Christians off their butts and they do something they think is in the name of Christ, that’s a GOOD thing.
I don’t care for his and many pastor’s views on social justice but, I’m more disturbed that the church as a whole has given up it’s job to help others in favor of the government doing it.
What it all has become, is a modern day witch hunt and it’s disgusting. It’s disgusting watching so many people making money by tearing others apart “in the name of Christ“, because they disagree with Rick Warren and others.
If I don’t like what a pastor does, I simply will not go to that church. It doesn’t serve anybody if I then go into a tirade and start to demean him because I disagree, even if by chance I’m correct in my assertions, especially in a public forum. I don’t think it serves the Body of Christ. If anything I see it giving more impetus for unbelievers to dislike Christians and another excuse not to explore the possibilities of Christian life.
For the life of me, I can’t blame some for staying away from us, upon viewing all the infighting and bickering that seems to be part a parcel of Christians. Especially via the internet!
I used to be very active on many Christian blogs and now, this is the only one I frequent, because of the statement I made in my previous sentence. It’s depressing to watch the infighting.
Ultimately, and I insinuated in a earlier post, it doesn’t matter what Rick Warren does, as God has the uncanny ability to bring people to Himself and put them where they need to be and where he wants them to be. I’ve never seen it fail!
I also said earlier, it all distracts from the Mark 16:15 command.
You mean you can’t, Scotty?
That’s one thing to “admire” about Muslims and false teachers: they practice what they preach. Warren has been very clear about his goals, and they’re being playing out right before us.
How blatant does it have to get before you’ll see it? Joining hands with new age gurus? Pentagrams? Here you go:
http://www.numii.net/word_press/gurus (where Warren is listed among other prominent gurus)
http://tinyurl.com/2dw6nkb (co-laborer Brian McLaren’s associations)
No mention of Lighthouse Trails on these links…these come straight from the horses’ mouths.
“Therefore, I have deliberately used paraphrases in order to help you see God’s truth in new, fresh ways.” (Emphasis his.)
You can glean all that from just this one line? Amazing!!
Rick Warren’s heretical teachings can be summed up in this one sentence from The Purpose Driven Life (p. 325):
“Therefore, I have deliberately used paraphrases in order to help you see God’s truth in new, fresh ways.” (Emphasis his.)
Thus, he has used this “new, fresh ways” hermeneutic to teach himself and countless others that in spite of Peter’s admonition in 2 Peter 1:20 to the contrary, God’s word is subject to private interpretation after all. All we need to do to get it is to use whatever translation or paraphrase that supports the particular point we want to make, thus showing that God’s truth can be seen in whatever “new, fresh ways” we want to promote at the moment. Thus, if we use a broad enough assortment of translations and paraphrases, we can get God to say whatever we want. Most notably justify a completely unbiblical purpose and authority structure for the local church.
Warren has “helped” the church see God’s truth in “new, fresh ways” that have done irreparable harm. He has “helped” pastors look at God’s truth in “new, fresh ways” that have led them to set themselves up as kings on a hill; turn their churches into businesses; divide their congregations; get the movers, shakers, monetarily endowed, and other power brokers among them in his back pocket; and leave many sheep wounded and abused, without a shepherd or local flock.
His “new, fresh ways” of seeing God’s truth have rendered the church almost unrecognizable from what she was before he “helped” her. His “new, fresh ways” of seeing God’s truth have brought alliances and associations with some of the strangest heresies of our time, such as Emergent and Contemplative (though Contemplative has been around for centuries). His “new, fresh ways” of seeing God’s truth have counseled alliances with Muslims and other Christ hating groups in order to “bring God’s kingdom” to earth, sans the King, through his PEACE plan.
Warren’s “new, fresh ways” distort and pervert God’s truth and are a strange fire to God. His “new, fresh ways of seeing God’s truth” have caused “an astonishing and horrible thing [to be] committed in the land: The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests rule by their own power; and [God’s] people love to have it so.”
But not all of God’s people love to have it so. Some of us are still grieving from being Purpose Driven out of our churches that we loved dearly, before they were destroyed by Purpose Driven pastors and the deacons and other leaders who were deceived into “loving to have it so.”
JanH
Pearl,
Thanks for your accurate analysis and discernment. Well said.
We must be Bereans in our study.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Regarding Lighthouse Trails failing to recognize/address the Lordship Salvation issue, I don’t believe that is their calling, nor should they be faulted for it.
Actually, any discernment ministry which puts too many topics on their plate is bound to become seriously diluted, as they attempt to address each and every fire that pops up.
They’ve focused solely on the mysticism creeping into the church via the East/New Age and Catholicism. That’s it. No other distractions, making them the number one source of heralding the arrival of this vast danger which is completely ecumenical in nature. It’s amazing how many inroads it has made and the countless people falling for it. It’s everywhere. And sympathy expressed toward wolves in sheeps’ clothing like Warren and his ilk only shows how persuasive its representatives can be. I’m sure if I spent some time with a charismatic cult leader, no doubt his smooth words could wear me down, like the serpent did with Eve.
There are many Christian folks who seem to think they are stronger than most and thus able to read works written by fringe personalities and not be affected by the thoughts/teachings contained therein.
Norman Grubb and A.W. Tozer are just two men who thought they could get away with it. You know, “eat the meat, spit out the bones”. And yet, Grubb found himself adopting and spreading the teachings of theosophy as communicated by the very deep, thought-provoking works of Jacob Boehme, who is considered the father of theosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_B%C3%B6hme ) .
Tozer said in his sermon called “The Deeper Life” that Merton was a great man of God – a prophet! Really?
And yet, Merton said:
“I see no contradiction between Buddhism and Christianity … I intend to become as good a Buddhist as I can.”
(David Steindl-Rast, “Recollection of Thomas Merton’s Last Days in the West” (Monastic Studies, 7:10, 1969)
Warren is a false teacher, plain and simple, peddling this stuff into mainstream Christianity.
Thanks Z, great to hear from you.
Yep, God is in control in the big picture — but decisions of error or truth He leaves to believers, just as He leaves decisions of trusting or rejecting Christ to unbelievers. He does not force either decision.
The Lord wants us all to be clear and pure with our message about salvation by Faith alone in in Jesus Christ.
We see many Bible examples of folks who went astray with their life and message.. and the Lord promised they would be disciplined. For instance, the Children of Israel were made to wander 40 years in the desert because of their disobedience. Israel’s great leader Moses was banned from crossing over the Jordan River into Canaan because of his error and disobedience.
So we strive to speak the Truth and share a clear Gospel message.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
So many people admire and go by what RIck Warren says…….I find it troubling. His popular book sold millions. That he’s now siding with healthcare, etc., is dismaying and I just have to keep telling myself GOD IS IN CONTROL…………….a million times 🙂
As I said, I disagree with most of what Warren does and says. I just don’t see the boogey man there that they seem to see. I see most of what he does a matter of preferences and not absolutes.
If someone came to me asked me what I thought of Rick Warren, I would point them towards a more “conservative” preacher. One without the trappings and the hoopla that seems to follow him. I think it all distracts from the Mark 16:15 call.
I think it’s too easy to allow others to do our thinking for us. In that I mean, in this case, I read a LOT of Warrens works and see a lot of “out of context” being used against him and so, as often happens, the dreaded straw man arguments against him. There’s no winning against these type of arguments.
I read his writings only because I heard all the clamor against him. I think he’s wrong on a lot things. But then, who can say they’re perfect, like you said.
I think establishing a ministry based on critique others and often waiting for a slip of a tongue or a shaking of a wrong hand to pounce is for the wrong reasons. And there are many out there, that if it weren’t for the internet and being watchers, would have no ministry at all. Most of what I have seen on the internet aren’t worthy of tying a Walter Martin’s shoes…..but hey that’s just my opinion.
“ but I agree with your statement about Calvinism. I see that Lighthouse does not seem to discern Lordship salvation authors. I had a long email discussion with Lighthouse Editor Dombrowski about that — and she denied any sympathy with the false teaching yet I disagreed with her on a point or two.”
I’m glad you brought that up. It’s so often I see” the enemy of my enemy is my friend” run rampant among these folks.
“and she denied any sympathy with the false teaching yet I disagreed with her on a point or two.”
And that makes my point. I have seen nothing on Lighthouse that about “Lordship Salvation”. Personally, I find that much more abhorrent that most of what Warren teaches.
Scotty,
We slightly disagree on some things..
Lighthouse does a great service informing those who care about error and those who are involved with the mystic, contemplative, etc. Any time I read a report from them, I double check it with other sources and the people themselves. They can make an error (as we all can) — but they do have expertise in the kind of error they expose.
Not sure about Lighthouse’s accommodation of Calvinism — but I agree with your statement about Calvinism. I see that Lighthouse does not seem to discern Lordship salvation authors. I had a long email discussion with Lighthouse Editor Dombrowski about that — and she denied any sympathy with the false teaching yet I disagreed with her on a point or two.
“Guilt by association” is a real problem when preaching Biblical Christianity. The Bible tells believers to “be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers … and come out from among them and be ye separate..” (2 Corinthians 6:14-17) I would not judge Warren’s salvation — nor Calvinists — except to listen to their words and see their associations.. Warren’s associations with the three mystic doctors (among others) does not recommend him to me. He should be condemning their mysticism and sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Likewise, when a Calvinist tells me their God only chooses some to be saved and thereby leaving the rest to Hell, they lie against God’s Grace as spoken by His Word. By Warren’s and Calvinist’s words I could not assume they are saved.. that is why I leave that up to the Lord. But I do expose their error.
Schuller, Warren, et al are, to use your phrase, causing “collateral damage” when their message is not the pure Gospel of Grace of Jesus Christ but another Gospel.
You said, “Personally? I think God has got it ALL under control despite the help of the many watch dogs out there. Despite who Rick Warren is and what he does, people are coming to Christ because of him, funny how that works.”
Scotty, the Lord’s control still leaves decisions up to individuals — to believe or adhere to truth or error. Yet He can and does use many ways to speak to man, even as He spoke through Balaam’s donkey in the OT.
We are told to use words “easy to be understood” (1 Corinthians 14:9) and “Seeing then that we have such hope [guarantee], we use great plainness of speech: (2 Corinthians 3:12)
I am happy that you did trust Christ as your Savior and are my brother in Christ now, in spite of the messengers. I likewise was involved with Dale Carnegie and trusted Christ as my Savior indirectly because of my involvement in politics — but neither Carnegie nor politics are the Gospel of Jesus Christ for anyone’s salvation.
Scotty, I never intend to “put God in a box” but I plead, as did the Apostle Paul, “use great plainness of speech.”
You are right that Jesus shared the Gospel (Himself) with cheats, sinners and thieves.. but He did not get his message from them, neither did He recommend them nor encourage us to emulate them, their lifestyle or their message. Christ’s message was of His Salvation — not the social gospel message of so many modern day churches.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
This is not a defense of Rick Warren, let me say that first and foremost. Rick Warren is not for me. But I stopped reading Lighthouse a long time ago.
I have found them so often a little loose with facts. And so often condemning many just through GBA, guilt by association. I’ve seen them and others, condemn folks solely based on preferences and style.
Another thing I’ve noticed about many “watch dogs” is they tend to lean towards the Calvinistic point of view. A viewpoint that I disagree with just as much as I disagree with Warren. But, despite that, I believe that Rick Warren is saved as I believe the Calvinist are saved.
I’ve watched them try to eat their own, Mark Driscoll at Mars Hill in Washington is a good example of that. Some of the nasty and seemingly bitter vile things I’ve seen written about him are shocking. I’ve listened to MANY of his sermons and he is NOT the devil!!
I’ve seen folks question others salvation based on if they use hymns during worship services or contempory music. I think some of it is getting out of control!
Personally? I think God has got it ALL under control despite the help of the many watch dogs out there. Despite who Rick Warren is and what he does, people are coming to Christ because of him, funny how that works.
A personal testimony…….Robert Schuller. I know now that most of what he teaches is hardly biblical. But he was the first one that peaked my curiosity. I was in sales in my early life. I was reading Og Madino, Dale Carnegie and many other positive thinking authors, it was part and parcel of that way of life.
To make a long story short. That was enough to put a crack in the shell built around me by my disbelief. God used Robert Schuller to get my attention And it was constantly pecking away on that shell until I accepted Christ in a bible thumping AOG church 38 years ago.
Despite of what Lighthouse and other write, people are coming to Christ despite those people they write about. So often it seems they forget the it’s the Holy Spirit that draws people Christ. It’s putting God in a box if they think God can’t work through Rick Warren or many others they disagree with. Because, while they may think they’re fighting the “good fight” in military terms there is a lot of collateral damage they are inflicting and I think they will be held accountable for that damage.
I read a bunch of Rick Warrens stuff and while I don’t like his style, one thing he isn’t is, a “New Ager”. They condemn Rick Warren because of the people he associates with forgetting that it was Jesus that hung around with cheats, adulterers, sinners thieves……..the list is pretty big.