Tell Me, Those Of You Who Desire To Be Under The Law, Do You Not Hear The Law?
Re-posted from our friend, Holly Garcia
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment. Acts 15:24
Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. I Tim 1:5-7
I’d like to address those who are confused by the Law or law-keepers. What law are we under? Are we under the ten commandments? What commandments do we follow? Do we keep the Sabbath? I think a good understanding of the law and the covenants are crucial to knowing why we are NOT under the law of Moses. The law includes the ten commandments and is one unit.
PLEASE, look up each Scripture. Make it a Bible study. Do not take my word for it. I was blessed to tears reading these Scriptures; it reminds me of what He has done in my place.
MEDIATOR OF THE OLD/MOSAIC COVENANT
MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT
But if any one preach the Jewish law unto you, listen not to him. For it is better to hearken to Christian doctrine from a man who has been circumcised, than to Judaism from one uncircumcised. But if either of such persons do not speak concerning Jesus Christ, they are in my judgment but as monuments and sepulchres of the dead, upon which are written only the names of men. Flee therefore the wicked devices and snares of the prince of this world, lest at any time being conquered by his artifices, ye grow weak in your love. (* ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus – I am not recommending them, just quoting to show others mentioning this problem with Judaizers was continuing, pervasive from the beginning.)
- Israel through Moses – Deut 4:7-8, Deut 5:1-3, Deut. 4:7-8; Ps. 147:19-20; Mal. 4:4
- Not made with Abraham – The Lord made NOT this covenant with our fathers, but with us… (Deut 5:2)
- Not made with the Gentiles – Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment. (Acts 15:24) ….having NOT the law (Rom 2:14)
NAMES: (This will be important later as you see the fulfillment of Christ dying on the cross and risen again)
• The Law – Matt 22:36 (No one kept the law. John 7:19)
• The Law of the Lord – Luke 2:23-24, 27, 39
• The Law of the Jews – Acts 25:8
• Your Law/Their law/Our law – (spoken to the Pharisees – John 8:17; 10:34; 15:25; 19:7)
• The Law of Moses – Acts 15:5, 24, 13:39; John 7:23;
• The Law at Mt. Sinai (also Horeb) – Gal 4:24
• The Law of Sin and Death – Rom 8:2
• Bondwoman – Gal 4:24
• Hagar – Gal 4:25
• Bondage – (because they were brought out of the house of bondage-Ex 20:2-3 and Gal 4)
• Ministry/ministration of Death (2 Cor 3:7)
• Letters engraved on stones (2 Cor 3:7) – Ten Commandments
• The Letter (Rom 2:29, Rom 7:6; 2 Cor 3:6)
• Ministry of Condemnation – on stones (2 Cor 3:9) – Ten Commandments
• Wall of Partition – Eph 2:15
• Handwriting of ordinances against you-Col 2:14-15
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7:24
PURPOSE OF THE LAW
- To show us God’s holiness (I Pet 1:15-16, Lev. 11:44-45, 19:2; 20:7)
- To show us God’s righteousness (Rom 3:25-26)
- To keep the Jews set apart from others (Lev 11:44-45; Deut 7:6; 14:1-2)
- As a wall of Partition (Eph 2:15)
- Appoint Feasts and times for worship for Israel (Lev 23)
- To show us we fall short of His glory, and cannot approach Him (Ps 24:3-5)
- Temporarily forgave sin, enabled fellowship with God.(Lev 1-7)
- Kept under guard for the faith, afterward to be revealed. (Gal 3:24)
- Schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Gal 3:24)
- To give us knowledge of sin (Rom 3:20; 5:20; 7:7, 24-25; Gal 2:19)
- Added because of Sin UNTIL the Seed (Jesus) would come. (Gal 3:16-19)
- Guilt- Stop our mouths (Rom 3:19)
- Causes us to sin more. This, as one person put it, is “strange but true” (Rom 4:15; 5:20, 7:7). The law makes us terribly aware of our own sinful state. How merciful God is to show our great need for Him, and His great love for us.
FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW
Christ came to fulfill the law (Matt 5:17). The very same verse Judaizers will use this passage to try to compel us to keep the law, saying that He did not come to destroy the law. No…He didn’t; He came to fulfill the law. It is done. It is finished.
The Road to Emmaus shows the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law – Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” Luke 24:44
We are not under the law, it was taken away, changed… we are dead to it. The law, the wall of partition, was broken down at the cross, nailed to the cross, and done away with. Christ redeemed us from under the law, and is the End of the Law for righteousness for those of us who believe – (Romans 10:3-4). Here are some more places you can look:
- The Law is NOT made for the Righteous – 1 Tim 1:9a
- No longer under the Law – Rom 6:15
- Cast out the bondwoman – Gal 4:23-25, 30)
- Christ took away the first, so He could establish the second – Heb 10:9
- Dead to the Law by the body of Christ – Rom 7:4
- Set free from the Law – Rom 8:2
- Wall of partition was broken down at Christ’s death – Eph 2:15
- Law was until John the Baptist – Matt 11:13; Luke 16:16
- Nailed to the cross – handwriting of ordinances – Col 2:14-15
- Law done away with – The Letter – 2 Cor 3:11
- Redeemed from under the Law, adopted as Sons, when Christ came – Gal 4:4-5
- Disciples were ministers of the new covenant NOT of The Letter – 2 Cor 3:6
- A change of Law, no more Levite Priests.
Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the Law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the Law. (Heb 7:12-13)
- Final Sacrifice once for all – Heb 9:12
- Last Word – He was the fulfillment and the last word – Heb 1:1-2
- New Covenant
- Once Christ came, the Mediator of the more excellent ministry established on better promises. (Heb 8:6)
- In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:13)
- It is obsolete: In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:13 – see also Jer 31:31-34)
- The Law never justified: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:39)
The Power of God and the wisdom of God are in the gospel. (Rom 1:16-17; I Cor 1:17-18, 24)
WE ARE UNDER A NEW LAW
The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus – the Law of Christ. (Rom 8:2; Gal 6:2)
Does not come by the Law (Gal 2:21)
Is only by His free gift, never the Law (Rom 4-5), through faith in Him. (Phil 3:9, Rom 3:22)
Does not come by the Law. (Rom 3:20; Gal 2:16; Gal 3:11)
Is only by faith. (Rom 3:28; Gal 2:16; Gal 3:11, 24)
The Law cannot sanctify permanently; the Law was only temporary.
Comes by faith in Christ and is permanent. (Acts 20:32; I Cor 1:2; Heb 10:14)
Comes by the Blood of Christ:
Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. (Heb 13:12)
Comes by the Holy Spirit by belief in the truth (Rom 15:16; 2 Thess 2:13; I Pet 1:2)
Is by the Word (Eph 5:26; John 17:17)
Comes by the Father who preserves us in Jesus Christ, keeps us from stumbling and presents us faultless, as we are kept by HIS POWER. (see Jude 1,24; 1 Pet 1:5; 2 Tim 1:12)
Sanctification before God is FOREVER:
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (Heb 10:14)
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (I Cor 6:11)
Who became for us:
Wisdom from God
All glory to God! (pp 1 Cor 1:29-31)
THOSE WHO ARE STILL KEEP THE LAW
- Are you doing it to be made right?
- Because you think it commends you to God?
- Because you think the commandments are still in effect?
- To be justified?
- Because you “really love Him”?
- Do you travel to Jerusalem to keep the appointed feasts?
- How many of the laws do you fall short in?
If you are doing it for any of the above reasons, you have fallen from grace.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Gal 5:4)
Did Peter, who was the apostle to the Jews, preach the law? Where? The Righteousness of God is APART from the law. (Rom 3:21-22)
Can someone follow certain portions of the law out of freedom? Keep a feast? What if it bothers a Jewish believer to eat pork? Or another believer to eat something that he doesn’t know if it was strangled or even mistreated? What if you are in the home of a Jew and they are kosher?
What if the child of an alcoholic does not want others to drink wine around them? Or they have come to believe a holiday is pagan and they just feel odd about participating?
These are all matters of conscience, or wisdom to those who are without. As long as they do not do it because they feel they must keep the Law. As long as they do not believe it contributes in any way to their righteousness, justification, salvation — OR as long as they do not compel others in any manner to keep the Law, then they are free to do what their conscience can handle.
But—remember, BOTH SIDES, do not make the other stumble for the sake of food. Food does not commend us to God, nor Sabbaths, nor Holy days, nor days celebrated, nor days not celebrated. (Read Rom 14; Col 2; 1 Cor 10:12-31. Especially—read Galatians carefully. You may certainly consider 1 Cor 9:19-22, Paul was all things to men so he might save some.)
If any try to live by the law, be justified by the law, they are under a curse, for they need to continue in ALL things (not possible) that are written in the Law. (Gal 3) If you are trying to compel people to live under the Law, you are in the wrong and are not being honest about the gospel. Thus, you are preaching an accursed gospel. (Gal 1-2) Worse, what if you never understood the gospel of grace? You are lost.
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Acts 15:10
* Holly’s Web Site: Redeeming Moments
Keith, Paul says they are dead wrong. The futility of anyone trying to keep the law is what should lead people to saving faith in Christ as the one and only way to be justified and redeemed. Galatians 3:10 thru 25.
Phil, Christ used the moral law to show the Jews they did not keep the whole law perfectly:
“Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire”. -Matt. 18:8
In spite of that, many today think they can be justified by keeping it.
Very wise words, PhilR.
Phil, you are right that many make that incorrect distinction and you are also correct that we are not under the law at all.
Something to watch out for is teachers and preachers who will say that Paul was only referring to the “ceremonial law” in his epistles such as Romans, Galatians, and Colossians when he states “we are no longer under the Law.”
Paul may refer to certain aspects of the law, but if you would put yourself under any part of the law, such as circumcision, you would be automatically under all of it including the ten commandments. (See Galatians). All of the law is interrelated. And Christ fulfilled all of the law for us, so we are not under any of it: we are instead under grace alone.
If anyone is in doubt that when Paul says saved believers are no longer under the law that he means the whole law of Moses then just read Romans 3:9 thru 28. This passage is not referring to cereminal law; it is referring to every persons’ sins and their breaking every commandment of the law. But Christ freed us from the condemnation of the law by justifying and redeeming us from the law. So if we are no longer under the demands and condemnation of the law, what are we under? We are under grace alone and we are guided by the Holy Spirit who guides our consciences in the principles of what is right and wrong, Christ’s great commandment.
The lawkeepers or ‘teachers of the law’ are relentless, often cruel, and really don’t know the law (hear the law). They have no idea it’s not for them, to them, and it’s not possible for the law to be kept.
Curtis… thank you, I still pray for you and Doris. I really am surprised too when I see men or women like this, but there are many. Sometimes they get very outlandish, but in the end it’s sad for them. I realize I’m nobody, not without Christ. If not for Christ, I’d still be a nice person in my own sight, thinking I was pretty good because I didn’t do this or that… The Word has a way of showing us how much we need a Savior and it’s good to be reminded of the fact there isn’t one thing we can do to earn or keep or salvation. Love in Christ to you. Praying still for the caregiving situation.
JohnWI, I agree. Glad to see Curtis back.
Curtis, it’s so nice to see you back on expreacherman!
That’s why I had to post… It enrages me when men bully women from behind a keyboard..
You are a good God fearing woman Holy… Your internet testimony is far reaching…
Curtis, funny you should bring up that verse, I used exactly that one to say even a lie. Keeping the law is a curse, and I brought up Galatians 2:16 and 3:10-14. Really sad to me. They are hateful. He actually called me a murderer, I have no clue why, but I explained how I had not shown hate, but I seen it.
Curtis, it’s good to hear from you.
As you said, Jesus paid it all!
Sadly, there are still those who haven’t come to that realization, and are still seeking to establish their own righteousness.
Nothing that defiles shal enter in…..
you must be perfect to enter Heaven.. Hence the new birth born from above goes to heaven. The old man must die… Must be changed hence other than rapture the old man body does not go. To heaven..
Now does the gospel message you offer make a Soul perfect?
Repenting of sin make a soul perfect?
Making Jesus Lord and master make a soul perfect
I know I’m going to Heaven because I can’t go to Hell because I have no sin/sins to pay for..
Because Jesus paid my sin debt..
Now there are consequences for sin yes.
Consequences are God’s choices..
Holly, it is a shame that someone would attack you for asking them what they were trusting in for eternal life.
So many think that Christ is necessary, but not sufficient for eternal life.
It’s interesting how much ‘law’ comes up whether dealing with standard law keepers, Hebrew roots, sacred name or Loadship teachers. It’s all about them, what they do, what they don’t do.
Today I had another lawkeeper, I asked him multiple times how he was saved. He refused to answer. I asked him what the gospel was. Refused to answer.
Then he called me a ‘church whore’ and ‘lol’. Doesn’t dawn on them that they’re not without sin in their mouths?…
Jason, I think if you consider ‘the law’ vs. the word ‘law’ it gets a little less confusing. The first usage is something established. He established our liberty (James 1) in Him. Also in Strongs it means to divide or handed down. It’s the Word He gave to us. It’s what He has approved of for us. It’s not the Mosaic law, which never saved, it’s purpose was to point people to the Messiah, and to establish their sinfulness.
So what was handed down by God to Moses for Israel, what was established for them BECAUSE of their transgression (remember it wasn’t given for 430 years after the promises made to Abraham), what has been established or handed down to the church is different because the Messiah has come. He settled the sin problem at the cross. The law never justified anyone.
Phil, my parents were listening to his prophecy stuff, and to me it’s almost a given if they’re large, there is little accountability not more. And a lot more flexibility and compromise. I found those things (along with the Mess-AGE ‘bible’ usage), and it was hard to get them to hear. They say one thing on one page, then another (similar to Billy Graham). Double-minded and unstable in all their ways.
If they are SBC, then why are they not called Shadow Mountain Baptist Church, lol?
It always rubs me the wrong way when churches have two or three different offerings for different purposes.
Thanks john for the link. .This is kind of what I suspected about David Jeremiah, that faith to them involves more than just believing; that it must also have a commitment of forsaking of sins and turning ones life around. From their site, SMCC is a mega church, probably with a mega budget that depends on their flock getting in lock-step needing everyone to bring their in tithes–for mega-tithes to balance their books.
I used to be in a small home based church some years back where they would just put an offering plate on the snack and coffee table if you wanted to give. People were never pressured to give. In other words, no church budget needed. You could of course contribute to the coffee and snacks.
Phil, I wonder why they don’t dissociate from the SBC. We have had some commentary on David Jeremiah in the past, and I would not recommend him. Please see below:
As to my recent post on tithing, I mentioned a church broadcast where the pastor was urging his flock to tithe. It was David Jeremiah pastor of Shadow Mountain Community Church. Although they are an SBC church, everything in the SOF says salvation by grace alone thru faith In Christ alone, plus nothing else (surprising for an SBC church.)…. But true to form of SBC churches, they tell their flocks that Christians are still supposed to tithe.
I agree that it is very heady. My mind just doesn’t want to leave it alone, lol.
Jason, this is kind of heady stuff. I think of it like this: the law of sin and death has been replaced by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.
I think you explained it pretty well, actually.
Here is a quandary.
1. I am under no law
2. The law of Christ is a law
3. Therefore, I am not under the law of Christ
This is a perfectly logical argument. The conclusion sounds a bit off. So there must be a problem in the premises. Premise 1 must be granted if we deny Galatianism. Premise 2 sits right with my spirit. So I am confused, and I remain confused even now. I could tolerate this contradiction while under Calvinism, but I can no longer ignore it.
Perhaps the conclusion is actually correct because the law of Christ is not something that I am under but is part of my new nature. I fulfill it as long as I walk in it. But my flesh is under the law of sin, as Paul seems so clearly to say in Romans.
God Himself is not under the law, but God’s law is not something arbitrary but is of God’s nature and as such is coequal with Him. God cannot transgress his own law and neither can the incorruptible seed.
Churches will use Malachi 3:8-10, under the law, commanding the tithe. But they don’t seem to realize, or just ignore the fact, that tithing was like a tax on grain and livestock and more that was used to support the landless Levitical priesthood in the OT. If these churches who want to just follow this part of the law were honest they would have to not just tithe their money, but from everything else they had.
Many churches have expanded from simple bodies of believers to organizations with big plans and big budgets. So they use tithing trying to put their congregations on a guilt trip–and getting them to think God is commanding them to tithe, which He’s not.
If you are saved, then you are already a member of the only church that counts for eternity: the church of the first born, that isn’t going to weigh you down with their mega budgets and debt and put you under the OT law of tithing to pressure you.
As John said earlier, there simply is no tithe requirement for the Christian believer.
Jason, good point.
I have even heard of “Christian” schools requiring their teachers and other employees to tithe to the sponsoring church.
Yes, It was called something like that. I meant to qualify that statement but forgot and hit the button, lol. It is particularly hilarious when people tithe and receive financial support from their church. A Catholic who tithes and receives from Catholic Charities comes to mind. All it accomplishes is shuffling money around.
Jason, I could be mistaken, but I thought the Arnold sermon was entitled “Why I Tithe.”
I think it would be better if people in the church stopped using the term “tithe” for giving.
Tom Cucuzza went off on a tithing sermonette during his series on suffering. I also recall seeing a video on Arnold’s channel called “why the tithe is right”. Even some grace churches are infected.
Phil, agree completely about tithing.
I am aware of a church (not a grace church, but an SBC church) that had a major split over the issue of whether someone’s tithe should go to the church, or whether one could support multiple ministries or charities with his “tithe.” Of course, neither answer is correct. There simply is no “tithe” for us.
See 2 Corinthians 9:7.
It is too bad that neither of the churches mentioned above were consistently clear on the gospel, and that no one from either group seemed to care enough about the gospel to dissociate from the SBC and faithfully teach the clear gospel in a consistent manner.
I briefly watched this well known TV church show the other night. From watching it in the past they do believe we are saved by grace alone thru faith alone and I assume they believe we are not longer under the Law.
But how ironic, this church like so many other churches will turn around and say just the opposite and contradict itself. The will pressure their congregations in different forms, subtly or directly, to give their tithe. I’ve seen everything from church leaders telling people that if you don’t tithe they doubt you are saved, to telling them they will be blessed if they tithe. Just about every church I have been in will pressure the congregation in one form or another to tithe their income. But whatever form they put it in, what they are actually doing is putting people under the law of Moses which we are no longer under. The truth is, pressuring people to tithe is an answer to big church budgets and their big plans.
As believers we have a giving from the heart principle, not a tithing principle– which is just putting us back under the law. Now if a person out of gratitude to God voluntarily wants to tithe and give then that’s fine. But believers should never in any way be compelled or pressured to be under the law–and tithing was part of the law of Moses and was meant for Jews to support the Levitical priesthood.
I welcome your input.
Thanks for the Reminder Holly I had forgotten about that what Preston said concerning Turn From Sin means keeping the Law.
Holly, this comment fits the article and comments very well.
Saw this today by Preston Greene, reminded me of this article, and thought the comment would go good with it.
7 hrs ·
1 John 3:4 – for sin IS “transgression of the law”
As a result, when one says one MUST”turn from sin” to be saved……what they are REALLY saying is one MUST “keep the law” to be saved. For sin IS “transgression of the law.
Turn from sin = keep the law
Some scriptures on the law and salvation…….
1. The law frustrates grace (Gal 2:21)
2. not justified by the law (Gal 2:16)
3. “the law” is establishing your own righteousness (Phil 3:9)
4. Christ is the end of the law FOR righteousness (rom 10:3-4)
5. concluded one is not justified by the law (Rom 3:27-28)
6. the law tempts God (Acts 15:10)
7. the law puts a yoke around the disciples necks (Acts 15:10)
8. the apostles gave no such commandment to keep the law to be saved (Acts 15:24)
9. the law MAKES FAITH VOID (Rom 4:13-14)
10 – Hebrews 7:19 – the law NEVER made anyone PERFECT.
HECK – Jesus said it was impossible for man to keep the commandments to enter life (rich young ruler)
So, trying to “be good” to go to heaven (keep the law) WILL NOT WORK.
Simply believe (trust) that Jesus (Gods only Son; God in the flesh) died as payment for your sins and rose again.
IF Jesus died as payment for ALL of your sins….how many sins do you have to condemn you to hell???????????
NOT “the law”.
NOT “how good you think you are.
Because “the law” NEVER saved anyone. IF it did, Christ would not have had to die.
– Gal 3:21-22 -21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for IF THERE HAD BEEN ANY LAW given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe (TRUST).
The hardening Holly mentioned
myself I didn’t even know I was under the bewitchment of calvanism (works for or because of salvation) . in fact if you would of asked me if im a calvanist I would of denied it. Would of said leave Calvin out of it what does Calvin have to do with it?
“better than I deserve”
“totally depraved worm food”
“remember the Lord”
“but the lord”
“the judgment seat of christ”
Would of left you with one of many tag lines in departure from you..
RAS – I wonder the same too — (“I often wonder if they put themselves under the same hardening as real Israel by adopting Israel’s title.”) Or by thinking they can actually be justified by the law in some way, they are puffed up like the Pharisee, thanking God they are not like those other sinners.
Johninnc – no, they don’t see the common denominator in their legalism, trying to be justified by the law — Satan isn’t really very original. I notice too when they argue, they accuse others of the very things they are doing or saying. Romans 10:3-4 comes to mind; For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Misty, thinking of you, praying for you.
Holly, that is the bottom line with religion. One would think people would see the commonality, but most don’t.
There’s a lot of untwisting to be done on those kinds of people—Torah, Hebrew roots, Gentile-Israelites. I often wonder if they put themselves under the same hardening as real Israel by adopting Israel’s title.
Thanks John. He was hostile at first, but then not entirely so as I spoke to him for awhile. People get so entrenched in this, but the bottom line is, all of religion is law keeping of some kind. Anything but the only way.
Holly, I have prayed for the person you mentioned.
Dealing with a Torah keeper tonight who I hope reads this article but with the intent to search the Scriptures to see if these things are so. He is black and believes all blacks are of Judah and therefore Israelites.May the Lord open his eyes.
Kate, don’t know if you’ll see this comment, but this is the article regarding the law, and the church is not under any portion of it.
People to this day, under different religious auspices, are trying to bring people back under the law.
My friend, who was a Catholic, (when she was) used to say she gave up O-Doul’s for lent (a non-alcoholic beer).
John and Preston. Two of the lawkeepers emailed me to warn me!! One told me the ‘devil could quote Scripture better’. Interesting fellows.
One more sternly than the other, saying that if I ‘taught error elsewhere’, there would be an ‘or else’. Of course they both tucked tail and ran, blocked me. One is named Chris Lewis, I have heard of him before. These people also make money instilling fear into people through religion.
we don’t steal jokes here………we “borrow” or “give” jokes. 🙂
Holly, yeah, false doctrine is really convenient.
I’ve been out of the country for a few days. I’m having trouble with Internet service, but noticed that Steven Furtick is on cable where I am. His brilliance transcends the continental U.S.
Preston, you stole my joke…or, I stole yours!
Speaking of “Lent”
you wanna know what I gave up for “lent”?????
and yes, i have ran into many who dismiss Paul. I usually will hear, “quit following Paul and follow Jesus”. (smh).
I ran in to two lawkeepers today, this is why I came back to this post. One denied all the writings of Paul, in an odd way, they are cousins to the Catholics and Calvinists who give lip service to the Word of God and give more credence to men’s words/books/teachings.
The other guy was teaching keeping the laws, and they are just half-brothers to the Load-ship teachers.
Johninnc – WHAT???? Drive through forehead ashes? How did I miss this? That’s a great comment, “Eternal life is the gift of God. It is not “lent” to us. It is given to us.”
Oh my goodness, so, so terribly sad…
Holly, I read that they were offering about 40 mobile ash sites in Washington, D.C. last week, so that the “faithful” who didn’t have time to duck into a church could get their ashes on the run.
Eternal life is the gift of God. It is not “lent” to us. It is given to us.
So this week, a friend that lives across town, decided to go to my childhood church, Bethany Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona. I am naming them so people will be aware, evidently their theology is being tainted. She called me concerned, because she went to a service based on a series called ‘Crucified’. Evidently they have a iconic looking pasty faced Jesus on the website (looked completely Catholic) along with celebrating Ash Wednesday. Another large church in town collaborated with them, North Phoenix Baptist.
My church was a non-denominational Bible church and is joining in on those practices? I wonder who ‘blessed’ the Ashes for them? I wonder if they have been properly instructed of how to dispose of the ‘holy things’…?
Talk about going into bondage and having fellowship with these works that are so predominantly seen in the Catholic and reformed/Catholic blends like Anglican, Lutheran, Episcopalians, etc.
The Road to Rome gets broader and broader…
Curtis – I really hope sometimes that when I’m talking to these people that they knew Him and were led astray. I could be wrong, but I think it’s believers that have been led astray in 2 Tim 2 and if we remember how to deal with them in the way the Lord shows us, we might be able to recover themselves out of the enemy’s snare as their minds change from the person’s aptness to teach, their meekness, and patience, and gentleness etc. Either way, at times, it’s difficult for me personally to differentiate between that and a sharp rebuke for those who may have been caught in lawkeeping. Or whether this is a Col 4:5-6 matter. But a pastor who is unable or unwilling to preach the gospel? I can only surmise it’s the deceitful handling of His Word.
I had asked him a few days earlier what was his gospeo, and he beat around the bush for days and finally listed Rom 3:25-26 as verses he gave for the gospel. He made comments about how it depends on whether a person is this religion or that religion as to how he presents it, etc.
Then another person asked him a couple days later and he started doing the same thing. So I posted also, and told him that it’s not about his presentation, but what he believes the gospel to be, to just share that. He went on and on about our ‘motives’ for asking, so I reminded him that Paul didn’t care the motives of why another was preaching the gospel, just that the gospel is preached.
He got so angry that he finally called me ignorant a couple of times and another guy came to post a link with the ‘active and passive obedience of Christ’ and I said ‘no thank you to anything from Gospel Coalition) plus I already knew what it meant basically, and was trying to get Him to use the actual Word of God. They say it ‘contains’ the Word of God (these theological terms)… doublespeak.
As I spoke the Gospel, I shared it, a little more in detail than 1 Cor 15:3-4, man sinned, man had to die, and how Jesus was that perfect sacrifice who died in our place for our sins. The Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. God had provided — and how Jesus proved not only that He was God by taking up His life again, but that He proved the veracity of the Scriptures and prophecies about Him (as the Scriptures said).. I said God did it all, and our condition is to believe upon Him, as He alone saves. A free gift offered and available to all.
After sharing that with His death, burial and resurrection interspersed, he had worked himself up so much that several posts later he snidely told me to share my gospel. I told him that I had, and it was several posts above, and it would be good if we were to have a conversation, that we would actually read one another’s posts. I was very careful how I spoke, and even though he called me names, and even said I was ‘ranting and raving’, he had to have shown himself to some as the wolf he is. I sure pray so, as another person came in to defend him as a ‘valued member of the group’ and a ‘wonderful pastor’.
yea , sure is something when asking a pastor of a church about the Gospel it seems to quickly turns defensive and argumentative , when scripture says we are to persuade and be gentle .
2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
I had to tease you guys. I have to laugh at God’s sense of humor.
Dealing with a Calvinist pastor a couple days ago when he ducked sharing the gospel when I asked him, and I noted (in a group) how people seem to miss praising and thanking the Lord, and said a number of things that the majority was just me repeating Scripture about the goodness of God, as I reflected on the Lord. Thing was this 5-different churches (commended himself) reformed pastor didn’t recognize the Word of God, and told me I sounded like Brian McLaren!!!!
Ha! Shows me for teasing you guys. I took each portion I had said, and gave him the Scripture for it. Didn’t seem to move the hireling.
The Lord, the Lord…. He is so good…
Holly you wrote, “If a person is married by McLaren, are they really married? lol!”
I was thinking the same thing! hahahah
I told my wife your comment and she said I should reply back so you know, that I know, you were joking. of course you were joking. but its better for me “to follow instructions”. 🙂
so here was my original thoughts.
are you saying me and my wife are not really married?
oh the amount of jokes, comments and thoughts running through my head!!!!
its what comes out of the mouth that defiles a man
its what comes out of the mouth that defiles a man
its what comes out of the mouth that defiles a man
its what comes out of the mouth that defiles a man
its what comes out of the mouth that defiles a man
inhale in……….exhale out……..
out of my mouth – I believe God still sees us as married. whew!!!!!! escaped one there. 🙂
Oh my goodness Preston, I feel like doing one of the ‘if a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound if no one is there’ jokes.
If a person is married by McLaren, are they really married? lol!
you said “ecumenical”.
here is a “fun fact” about Preston.
My wife and I were married 15 years ago. Who was the pastor?
Brian McLaren. (one the of the biggest/famous ecumenical people today).
James Robison has Beth Moore on his ‘television show’, and is definitely mixed up. He is heavily ecumenical and collaborating with the Roman Catholic church.
That might make sense on why he has that type of mentality. There is a Christian right, who seems to feel they can take over by demanding their rights, vs. living out their life in His power, by His love, and sharing the gospel in wisdom to the world.
I was once “treated” to a sermon by a televangelist named James Robison, who was a featured guest at my boyhood church (circa 1980).
James Robison spun a yarn about a funeral for someone who had lived a very ungodly lifestyle. He said someone might say the decedent was saved back when he was a child. He then mocked this possibility by sarcastically saying “yeah, right!”
He also said that anytime someone wanted to go out with his daughter, he would ask him to recite the ten commandments.
Did Robison think that it wasn’t possible for a believer to have a sinful lifestyle? Did he think that his own efforts as a Christian merited salvation, while the fictional decedent’s efforts did not? Did he only want his daughter to date boys who were still under the law?
Is this the kind of mentality that pervades Christendom, in which people insist that their rights as Christians are being abridged if they can’t post the Ten Commandments (that they are no longer under) in the town square? Do they ever say “we have been freed from the penalty of having broken (and continuing to break) these laws”?
Misty – praying for you today.
This is a verse that comes to remembrance, that many have used in their gospel presentation. This is spoken to a church (which we know contains wheat and tares) but they are not doing well. There are differing beliefs on whether this verse speaks to salvation, because of the counsel before, and the word (sup, supper) and symbolizing salvation, so I do not know, and won’t go that far, but believe it has to do with fellowship for sure.
How many believers are in this church, who knows, but the fellowship with those who are believers is lacking). Why?
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Just open the door to restored fellowship, confess anything you think that might be holding you back from a relationship, don’t try to fix it, just share it with Him, ask for help, He is faithful (1 John 1:9), and then hear His voice, open the door… Try to start spending time just talking to Him about more things, and looking for things in His Word. Try to read in context, and get counsel from seasoned believers who understand the gospel clearly and the Word of His Grace. In Him, Holly
William – I too prayed for more transparent believers, and thought on Christ and His disciples and what they shared as they went village to village, tired, grumpy and just facts of life they had to deal with. They shared wine together. That was nothing I even saw growing up and was a ‘shocker’. And that’s when I kind of was able to understand legalism.
I totally agree with what Jon said. Don’t give up hope! Your honesty and openness in sharing is very encouraging to us. In the past, I’ve met Christians who were NEVER open in sharing their struggles and problems with others and were always tight-lipped about everything. One wonders how they are going to grow and progress and move forward if they’re always so tight-lipped, secretive, and overly self-conscious.
Jon, that is a great comment, who of us have not felt like we have not gone too far, or just cannot do it. I am so glad He did it for me, God set His seal upon the Son, and His seal is upon us, the Holy Spirit He gave all with the gift of eternal life.
Misty, don’t give up hope! I have appreciated your comments here. You have been very brave and honest about your struggles and your past. You have been an encouragement to me also. I don’t believe God has lost patience with you. I have had those same feelings about myself. It’s not true. God loves you no matter what. Yankee Arnold said in his Prodigal Son sermon: “We’re all sinners. And Christ receives sinners. That’s good news.” The Gospel is Good News not bad news.
He will never leave us nor forsake us. We need the Word to remind us of that.
1 John 5:13 – These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 5:24 – Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
Misty and all, myself as well
The Lord be with you , When you trusted Jesus as your Savior you entered into a covenant with God that He has established before the foundation of the world it can not be broken or undone (study it for yourself). He Loves you and will never leave you know matter what. He pursues us relentlessly that we would recognize that He is the one who is closer to you than a brother . God is for you to do you good The Lord be with you Misty and all remind yourself of that .His presence is with you. We have God’s favor the God of Abraham , Issac, and Jacob by the shed blood of His one and only begotten Son Jesus who is the Christ
Misty, I can understand your feelings, I once felt that way, but that was when I was under the impression that my performance had something to do with my salvation. I was bewitched into thinking, that what had begun in the Spirit, I could finish in the flesh. The flesh is dying, so to try to finish in it, put us in a position of dying.
Do you believe there is another way of salvation?
Do you believe that Christ died for all men including you?
Is it hard to believe that Christ even died for Charles Manson, Hitler, or even the Muslims today who are murdering others who name Christ? He died for sinners.
We cannot contribute a certain percent, nothing imperfect will enter heaven. Christ is the only perfect man who ever lived, and the only perfect man who ever died in our place. Man sinned, man was the solution.
That man was Jesus Christ who is God. He gave His life willingly and He was able to take it back up again. Freely He gave, you can only receive the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life, freely.
1% Misty + 99% Christ still = imperfect. A little leaven (sin) leavens the whole lump.
20% righteousness of the best of the best of mankind we can think of is still as bad, maybe worse, for they think they are good.
Righteousness has to be freely received with no hindrances, Only Christ can save us, the only answer we could give regarding ourselves is, I can add nothing, I can only believe that Christ died for me, and it was Christ alone, by Himself, who paid the penalty for my sin and gave me the FREE GIFT of eternal life. Have you received that by Belief alone and no works?
If so, then cooperation with Him is what is needed so you can gradually be set free from the power of sin in your life which blinds us.
What He has done:
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, according as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And beside this, giving all diligence,
add to your faith virtue;
and to virtue knowledge;
and to knowledge temperance;
and to temperance patience;
and to patience godliness;
and to godliness brotherly kindness;
and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
If we fail to cooperate and grow in His grace?
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 2 Pet 1:2-9
Don’t forget, your sins were taken away. Keep in His Word, keep in prayer, keep confessing your sins with the knowledge He is the one who is faithful and just to forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. This keeps us in fellowship with Him and also with other believers.
Trust in the Lord’s Word to work in your life (1 Thess 2:13; John 17:17).
Or, you can do as I did and waste time feeling sorry for myself, being blinded by my lack of cooperation to get into His Word and grow, and continually allowing the accuser to condemn me day after day in a terrible pattern till the time I was completely battered and could only say “help Lord”. Don’t let the enemy keep you from the Word of God.
You commented in the last sentence of your post: “there is no hope as this has went on for far to long.”
No!!! There is ALWAYS hope for you. Please read our article on Biblical Hope. You may be encouraged.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Excellent Words of wisdom William and all , I have learned a lot on this thread
for me I needed to forgive myself sometimes we cant see the finished work of Christ Jesus because of our sin.
“cant see the forest because of all the Tree’s ”
Know this :
God loves us as we are ,were we are, there we are.
God does desire us to change
medication’s can amplify ones emotions actually making them worse even for years after being exposed to them.
condemnation is not of God because the world is already condemned whether God sent His son or not BUT God
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
William, very good answers, I liked the analogy too. The reason why so many don’t get sanctified practically is multi-fold. It can be the things of this world, our own lifestyle. I’m sure your brother was chastened although like me (looking back) I was chastened greatly, probably as much as I could handle, and praise God I got time to mature and have had times of bearing or not bearing fruit, some had to do with incorrect teaching. Much of that out there. I made a list at someone’s request today and she questioned, “Is there no one sound out there”?
It sure seems like it at times, but we’ve also made a list, and some of us get our ‘sermons’ online, and our fellowship is mostly online. I have a Bible study I go to, and the people in it are bearing fruit, but we are not exactly a structured church. I don’t know if we’re going to see many anymore, too much compromise, the little churches get choked out if they do not compromise or play the same worldly games to draw in the world.
You say, ” I am the one who has believed the lie, and according to the scriptures, there is no hope as this has went on for far to long.”
I don’t know if you are aware of this, but I feel you have been listening to the lies of Satan. It is Satan who is trying to convince you that you are a hopeless case and that you cannot be saved.
It appears that Satan is using your anxiety disorder to torment you via Scripture taken OUT OF CONTEXT to erode away your assurance of salvation.
Ephesians 6:12-13 – For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
James 4:7 – Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
1 Corinthians 10:13 – There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
William, what a great analogy!
In response to your statement, ” I do not know if these soils are permanent situations, as in the one who fell by the wayside, can he ever become one who received the word and was fruitful? I have never been able to permanently walk away from God, yet, I have never progressed.”
I have in my backyard 3 fruit trees: A lemon tree that is not currently bearing any lemons, but once did. I have a peach tree that bears immature peaches about the size of a golf ball, and I have an Asian fruit tree that is bearing much fruit this year, but in previous years it bore NO FRUIT.
Now, despite the fact that my lemon tree is not bearing any lemons and its been that way for years and the fact that my peach tree bears immature peaches, that in no way negates the fact that these are fruit bearing trees.
The same is true of Christians. Some Christians bear much fruit, some bear little fruit, and some bear no fruit at all, but that in no way negates the fact that they are saved and possessing eternal life. “Fruit” and “works” are not an accurate indicator of whether one is saved or not. There are people in society who do “good works” and exhibit “good moral behavior”, but are not saved and sometimes these people exist side by side with Christians.
I also wanted to comment some more on Luke 8:6-7:
Luke 8:6-7 – Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants WITHERED because they had no moisture. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and CHOKED the plants.
“Withered” does not mean dead, and “choked” does not mean dead. I presently have an aloe vera plant in my backyard that once “withered” because of excessive sunlight and it looked pretty bad. I immediately took it out of the sunlight and put it in a shady area where I started watering it with the rinse water from washing rice which contains nutrients. After about a month’s time, it started showing signs of improvement after continual watering with rice water, and today it is a healthy full grown plant again.
A “withered” arm may be considered “dead” or useless because of muscle atrophy and lack of strength, but it is not “dead” in the sense that there is no pulse or no blood circulation going through it, though the blood circulation may be poor, and it certainly is not “dead” in the sense that it is decomposing flesh.
“Choked” does not mean dead. A person may eat too fast and a small particle of food may fall into the windpipe causing the person to “choke” and cough, but the person is not choked to death. “Choked” in the context of Luke 8:7 indicates the presence of a hindrance that stunts the plants growth, but the plant is still alive.
You mentioned about the seed which fell on the rocky or thorny soil which is Luke 8:6-7, and the Christians described in Luke 8:13-14 with varying degrees of faith. At age 19, I was a Luke 8:13 Christian for roughly a year and I was growing, but then a year later things started going rough beginning with the death of my mother and shortly afterwards I had a severe OCD anxiety attack that was so bad that it would not respond to continuous prayer, medication or therapy.
Then I fell away. A careful reading of the Parable of the Sower and the seeds indicates that the seeds which fell in the rocky and thorny soils are indeed seeds which germinated, but grew up to a certain point because of hindrances present causing them to be in a state of atrophy.
Luke 8:13-14 corresponds with Luke 8:6-7.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as IT WAS SPRUNG UP, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns SPRANG UP WITH IT, and choked it.
If you carefully notice the phrases in verses 6 and 7 that goes, “IT WAS SPRUNG UP” and “SPRANG UP WITH IT”, these phrases indicate that those seeds GERMINATED resulting in plant life.
Luke 8:13-14 – They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which FOR A WHILE BELIEVE and in time of temptation fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and THEY DO NOT MATURE.
Look at the statement in verse 13 which says, “FOR A WHILE BELIEVE” and the statement in verse 14 which says, “THEY DO NOT MATURE.”
“BELIEVING” in the gospel results in instantaneous eternal life which eternally saves the person at that moment in time that forever cannot be lost no matter what. Yes, they fall away when the “going gets rough” because they are immature “babes in Christ” lacking patience and perseverance like I did. The statement, “THEY DO NOT MATURE” indicates that this is indeed a SAVED PERSON with eternal life, but in a state of spiritual immaturity/atrophy because of the hindrances – life’s worries, riches and pleasures. This person’s spiritual growth is stunted because of his/her preoccupations with life.
At the moment of BELIEF/FAITH apart from works in the free grace gospel of John 3:16, a person is INSTANTANEOUSLY SAVED and sealed forever.
A case in point is the thief on the cross next to Jesus:
Luke 23:42-43 – Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, TODAY you will be with me in paradise.”
Misty, do you see it? The thief on the cross BELIEVED in Jesus for eternal life and it was granted to him INSTANTANEOUSLY for all eternity. He was saved right then and there at that very moment.
Why do you think Satan had that desperate sense of urgency in snatching away the seed in Luke 8:12?
Luke 8:12 – Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they MAY NOT BELIEVE and be SAVED. Satan knows that once a person BELIEVES in the free grace gospel of John 3:16 apart from works that the person is eternally saved right at that very moment in time and NOTHING CAN STOP IT. Eternal life germinated.
The reality is that not all Christians are Luke 8:15 Christians. There are MANY, MANY Luke 8:13 and Luke 8:14 Christians that are saved, but they are in a state of spiritual atrophy/stagnancy because of discouragement, laziness, preoccupations with riches, pleasures, and workaholism.
My brother was a Luke 8:14 Christian. My mother told me decades ago that he BELIEVED in Jesus and was growing spiritually for the first couple of years, but then when he immigrated to the US, something happened. He became preoccupied with the “pleasures of life” – fornication, partying, drinking, gambling, etc, and was carnal up to the very day of his death. Whether or not God chastised him, I don’t know because I never lived with him, but the fact that he once BELIEVED, he is eternally saved and I will one day see him when I die.
My brother’s salvation was not jeopardized in any way because of the way he lived and what he did, but I’m sure his eternal rewards, if any, will be forfeited, and he will experience rebuke and reprimand from Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ – 2 Corinthians 5:10, but his salvation remains untouched – 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 and because it is a FREE GIFT from God -Ephesians 2:8-9.
Misty, if you ever BELIEVED in Jesus for eternal life, then you are eternally saved whether you feel like it or not. Don’t look to your feelings, failures, and works as proof that you are saved. That is the wrong place to look.
Misty, you have pinpointed your problem. You’ve never really studied His Word. Go do it in obedience to Him telling you to abide in His Word.
Start again with John, and read by studying and noting every incident of ‘believe’ or ‘believing’ or ‘not believing’ etc. and what it relates to. Maybe take note of the miracles, or look for the “I Am” statements throughout the book of life and what He is identifying He is, such as “the true vine” or the ‘bread of life” or the ‘bread from heaven’, etc.
Note when He is called something else such as the “Light of the World” or the “Lamb of God”, or the “Son of David”. Those things will give you other things to study. Stop back in after you’ve finished John and ask questions. Note your questions to the side, and then keep reading in prayer.
Start there Misty, start there in prayer, trust Him, His Word will light up your path. His Word will also enlarge your heart.
Start! Do it a little each day and night, and keep it up.
In Him, Holly
Misty, I think that eternally saved people can become more or less fruitful over the course of their lives. Nothing we have done in the past can be redone. So, there is simply no reason to dwell on the past (see Philippians 3:13-14).
Misty, none of us are good enough to deserve heaven. That’s why Jesus came to save us.
You said: “I have never experienced grace, so maybe my heart is hardened.”
My comment: If you have believed in Jesus as your Savior, then you have experienced grace!
Misty, look to Christ’s righteousness. Don’t look at your failures, or successes, or compare yourself to other people.
John, I believe that at 21, I was the seed that received the word with joy, but then the trials (my fears, and thoughts that I could not be good enough to be saved.), came along, and I returned to my vomit. I do not know if these soils are permanent situations, as in the one who fell by the wayside, can he ever become one who received the word and was fruitful? I have never been able to permanently walk away from God, yet, I have never progressed. It does no good to pretend, so in all honesty, I have never really studied God’s word, I have never been consistent with my walk. In the deepest recesses of my heart, I yearn to be a good productive christian, but because of the fiery trials, I hide in cowardice.I have absolutely no doubt that Jesus is the son of God, that he was crucified for the sins of the world.I have never experienced grace, so my negative thoughts and behaviors have not changed.What most one consider major external sins, I do not do, bit rather mine are of the worst kinfmd-the heart. I so desperately want to be like you all, able to quote scripture, with a heart that believes it is for me. Maybe my heart is hardened, maybe I have believed the lie. I know with 100% certainty that I do not deserve the sacrifice, nor do I deserve heaven, but the selfish side of me wants to make it. Perfect live casteth out fear, if I knew the Lord, I dont think I would be fearful. I do not kniw what is sin, and what isn’t, I literally think that God has said enough! I listen to you guys and can see that you know Christ, I see it in your fruit. I am the one who has believed the lie, and according to the scriptures, there is no hope as this has went on for far to long.
Sometimes when we figure out we cannot do it, that we are failures, that we can’t stop this or that, then we are in the right starting place to start applying our hearts to His wisdom vs. our own understanding. Our endurance in this race is to keep enduring in abiding in the Lord and in His Word. Cooperating the best we can with His help. Asking for the prayers of the saints. Keeping fellowship with Him so we can abide in Him. Everyone struggles with disappointment in themselves, any time I look at self, I’m pretty much dissatisfied, but when I look at Christ (as someone or more pointed out above), I’m not looking at my own abilities or looking down at the boisterous winds and being afraid of the stormy waters and sinking. Perfect timing to look back at Christ who saves us in our time of fear (remember He rebuked Peter for being of little faith? Remember too that the Lord rebuked the wind. The very thing that caused Peter to fear).
The point is, that we need to remember who our trust is in. Is it in our own abilities? Or is it in Him? He is the one who raises the stormy wind, but He is the one that also calms the raging sea.
O Lord God of hosts,
Who is mighty like You, O Lord?
Your faithfulness also surrounds You.
You rule the raging of the sea;
When its waves rise, You still them.
For He commands and raises the stormy wind,
Which lifts up the waves of the sea.
They mount up to the heavens,
They go down again to the depths;
Their soul melts because of trouble.
They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man,
And are at their wits’ end.
Then they cry out to the Lord in their trouble,
And He brings them out of their distresses.
He calms the storm,
So that its waves are still.
Jon, I believe that christians come in all shapes and sizes. Some walk closer to God than others, some struggle in their walk. We have flesh patterns that sometimes carry over into our walk with the Lord. For example, because of childhood trauma, and ptsd, I have a hard time trusting. My flesh tells me that I have to be good, and then God will love me. These of course are all lies, but for the sufferer they are very real. We have to understand that these issues are hard for some people to understand or deal with. The more pressure you put on yourself, the harder it is to be what you think God wants you to be. Love helps us remove the masks. You need to find someone that can love you just as you are, fears and all. God loves us through people. William, your story about your struggles blessed me, because I realized that I am not alone. Jon, the same goes for you. When we share our struggles God uses them to help others. Thank you all so much.
“God sees you as righteous as Jesus. ”
“The LAW causes you to look within.
GRACE causes you to look unto Him (Jesus)
Heb_12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Agreed Matt. Thank you! Always by Grace.
You are 100% righteous in Christ. God sees you as righteous as Jesus. God always hears Jesus. God always hears you.
The LAW causes you to look within.
GRACE causes you to look unto Him (Jesus).
Thanks everyone for your replies. Some very good scriptures and thoughts. I need to be in the Word more.
The Calvinistic “Jesus” is a FAILURE in that he didn’t die for all.
The Lordship Salvation “Jesus” is a FAILURE in that he needs us to add works to what he has already done.
The Arminian “Jesus” is a FAILURE because he cannot keep anyone saved and teaches that salvation can be lost.
The true and one and only Jesus of the Bible died for ALL – John 1:29, 1 John 2:2. He finished the work, not us – John 19:30. and He guarantees and affirms the certainty of eternal life – John 5:24, John 6:47, 10:28-29.
Misty – His Word will help us with anxiety and fear, and His Word will be our counselors (Ps 119). His Word as you know is a lamp for our feet & a light for our path, ordering our steps. His Word strengthens our faith to shield the fiery darts of the enemy. We are upheld by His Word (Ps 119:116).
Unless the LORD had been my help,
my soul had almost dwelt in silence.
When I said, My foot slippeth;
thy mercy, O LORD, held me up.
In the multitude of my thoughts within me
thy comforts delight my soul. Ps 94:17-19
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Rom 15:4
The entrance of thy words giveth light;
it giveth understanding unto the simple. Ps 119:30
We are not only given understanding, we are revived, strengthened, helped to not sin, given understanding, hope, shown mercy.. We are given counsel and our hearts enlarged, when we delight in His Word. (Ps 119).
In Him, Holly
That was a really solid answer John, thank you. For a number of reasons. His Word, and wisdom, seeking His wisdom, desiring His desires. It sure doesn’t come naturally, but even getting to know Him, learning from Him, casting our cares on Him (1 Pet 5), applying our heart to knowledge (Pr 22:17-21).
How quickly we can stray if we are not abiding in His Word. And I loved what you said here, I can go to God and ask that He help me to understand it. Or, I can go on the internet and see what every Tom, Dick, and Harry has to say about it. This is likely to cause wavering. Oh how true that is….
I explained it to my daughters somewhat like this. You have someone you really love and it’s real, deep love that will last forever. He went away for a time, but is coming back for you. In the meantime, he write you letters, and you let someone else read them to you. They tell you what they say, or they may read portions then tell you what He meant. Or you have others call him for you, but you never call.
I talked about His great love for us, how could we not want to comb every sentence, and read it over and over, seeing if we have missed something? (Again, I speak to myself). In that scenario, we’d be reading and savoring every moment and even if the person was faithfully sharing what those letters said, we’d want to be re-reading and checking to see if it was true.
You are so right, all the many voices, so many deceivers out there, it causes much doubt and wavering. We need His Word, and we need to be talking to Him, and thank the Lord for the fellowship of the saints.
Curtis, what you said is true and brought something else to mind. I think people’s mind ‘shut up’ in fear when they see certain passages and they forget to study in context and to search His Word to see what this means. One important thing is not to take teaching from a teacher whose gospel is not right.
A friend sent me a study to read, and I told her, I don’t know the man, I will first have to check out his gospel and see what he is teaching.
Her answer? Something to the effect that the article was about the Kingdom of God vs Kingdom of heaven, not the gospel.
It is so important we remember Proverbs 4:23;
Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
When Jesus told us to beware of the leaven (doctrine) of the Pharisees, I don’t think He meant pick and choose which part is o.k. to learn from.
A few things come to mind Jon regarding faith and those passages your brought up. (sorry for the length and if there is redundancy, forgive me, I have not read through yet)
WHO our faith is in matters not so much that we will get exactly what we ask for, but important to have faith that we will get a good gift from the Father (James 1:16).
And knowing what His Word says about Prayer matters. If we don’t have faith in Him in matters, then we will be tossed to and fro, also by winds of doctrine. We need to abide in the Lord and His Word. We will have problem if we are not abiding in Him, for apart from Him we can do nothing.
We do practically need to build our faith and get washed in His Word. The passage in James 5 have us going to more spiritually mature ‘elders’ to get anointed with oil. Confessing our faults to others, to ask for prayer and so their faith also comes in to play. This passage shows me it’s good to go to others, but not necessarily just anyone. Those who have commended themselves by their own walk and sound speech.
Is it positional or practical righteousness? I’m kind of learning towards positional (not knowing) but since the next verse contrasts Elijah as being a man ‘subject to like passions as we are’ and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain. So, if they are going to contrast Elijah as being just like me, and it has to do with practical, I’m in trouble for ever getting my prayers answered. BUT, we also have to consider James 4, WHY they were asking for things “asking amiss” so they could “consume it” upon their lusts. They were in some bad shape practically, so I will have to say practical righteousness also matters in so many ways, think also on James 1:19-20, our wrath does not produce the righteousness of God.
Knowing He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (fellowship with Him-1 Jn 1), helps our prayer life. It’s good to get those sins we might be harboring confessed to Him, for our sake too, as we’re more likely to know what is right when we are in fellowship. Or 1 Pet 3:7 gives husbands some answers so their prayers are not hindered. Also Ps 119:11 is helpful if we are dealing with persistent sin in one area (making note of this again for myself).
Besides trusting He is ABLE, and asking for others with faith to pray, we need to build up our own shield of faith. Romans 10:17 gives us a solid answer on how to strengthen our faith. John 15, give us more answers; we need to abide in His Word in order to be His disciples ‘students’. We not only need to hear is Word, but ‘do’ (James 2-see also Psalm 119:9 – we need to take ‘heed’ to what we have read/studied heard).
We need to study the Word with His approval in mind always. If His words abide in us, we are more able to know if this is the right thing to ask, sometimes we just don’t know but we can lean on His will in the matter, His ability, His goodness to us. How do we know if it’s His will we are healed? Paul asked three times, and there came a time for Paul to trust in God’s grace to be sufficient. So we ask, and trust Him to answer, and always give us the right solution. Sometimes a different answer than what we expected sometimes or even many times happens. It’s always better His will than ours. I think those are the things our faith needs to be in, not faith in our own faith.
John 7 tells us that if we will the Father’s will, we shall know the doctrine whether it be of God or not. Knowing His Doctrine makes it easier to ask for the right thing. We trust in Him, we can trust in His Word, but we need to continue in His Word too, knowing how important (2 Tim 3:14-17)
Desiring His will while we are praying (willing to do His will). Knowing that makes it much easier to ask and have faith. I wouldn’t have known if I was supposed to pray for no rain, because I wouldn’t know if that was God’s will, but I could pray having faith in Him, not in my own righteousness, besides, we have none of our own anyways. Our righteousness is because of Christ.
We can also remember that He ever liveth to make intercession for us. So we can have faith, He will intercede for us. I guess I have made this long enough, prayerfully, this has some helpful things for you, Heb 11:6 just also came to mind. We need to have faith in Him, in His abilities, in His goodness, in His love for us, in our position with Him, in His Word being true. God bless you Jon. 🙂
Curtis, I agree. Many people equate being a Christian with going to church. “Church” nearly cost me understanding how to receive eternal life.
Yes Thank you for your honesty Jon and others.
my biggest battle these days is simply getting along with myself . I do know God Loves me in spite of myself.
1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
for me personally the self condemning thoughts were from teaching I was sitting under and teachers I was listening too.
If i wake up in the mornings angry for no reason I start back tracking to see if there was a song I listened too or something spiritual I have heard. sometimes a message may sound good BUT is laced with LS.
There is only 1 thing to do with sin as believer’s in Christ confess it and have it condemned to hell 1john 1:9 this is fellowship with God not salvation.
reprove “the world of sin” sin is not the issue it is Unbelief the Jesus paid for sin
The Holy Spirit The Believer person Of righteousness,
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
unfortunately droves of souls will do the weekly ritual and “go to church” and only hear how much of sinners they are having sin stirred up and not told Jesus paid for sin and to focus on Jesus death burial and resurrection and who we are in Christ Jesus because of “it is finished” he declared.
Jon, your honesty is refreshing. God wants you to pray! So, any voice that is telling you not to pray is not of God.
Thanks for your thoughts and the verses John. I suppose I could’ve asked God to help me understand those verses, but that is part of the problem of prayer for me. I often don’t know what to pray for and feel like it is a one sided conversation. I’m sure this all sounds extremely negative, but I am being honest. My mind is a scary place sometimes. I get thoughts like: ‘prayer is useless for you Jon, you know you’re not righteous’. Is that the devil or just my broken brain? I’m not sure.
Misty I hope you are free from any Lordship influence now. I think Acts 15:24 sums up quite well how LS and false teaching in general can make people feel: 24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”[a] —to whom we gave no such commandment—
Misty, LS is a false gospel. Not only can it cause damage to people who know Christ as Savior, but it keeps people from understanding the gospel message that they might be saved.
Matthew 13:19: When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Pastors who teach LS, no matter how kind or well-meaning, are doing Satan’s work, not God’s.
Jon, I am glad you asked those questions, because I am in the same boat. It is hard not to waiver when you are anxious, I feel sometimes that I am being tossed to and fro.The damage done to me by Lordship teaching is quite serious. I would urge anyone, and everyone to stay away from it. My uncle is a lordship pastor that deeply admires John MacArthur, and not knowing any better, when I started having these horrific fears, I went to him for counsel, and his words instead of bringing hope, actually worsened my condition! I have learned, and am learning the hard way to avoid any teaching that puts me first in the salvation equation. Sorry, I went off topic, but I believe that false teaching has put us in this situation.
Jon, you’ve asked some great questions, and I am interested to read other peoples’ answers.
But, here are some of my thoughts:
We ought to pray. The Bible tells us to. I think God likes to hear from us. It is essential to fellowship, and it helps us to learn to go to God with our cares. Following are some verses to consider:
1 Thessalonians 5:17: Pray without ceasing.
Philippians 4:6: Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Romans 8:26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
I am not sure whether James 5:16 is referring to a positionally righteous (someone who is a saved person) or practically righteous (someone who is living a godly life) man. I think that praying for things that have been revealed to us through the Word of God as being in line with His will shows that our thinking is lining up with His. That would require both positional righteousness and a positive inclination toward desiring the things that God desires.
Regarding James 1:6-7, let’s back up a verse:
James 1:5: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
I think this verse provides context for verses 6 and 7. I think the wisdom to which this refers is the meaning of the Word of God. A practical application is this: If I am confused by a passage in the Bible, I can go to God and ask that He help me to understand it. Or, I can go on the internet and see what every Tom, Dick, and Harry has to say about it. This is likely to cause wavering.
Free Grace Alliance Article
The Fallout of
Lordship Faith Teaching
“The teaching and preaching of Lordship Salvation can foster a tremendous state of anxiety and doubt for some believers because its precepts demand a high level of purity of thought and lifestyle undergirded by the constant threat of not having been blameless enough or virtuous enough to merit salvation. “
I have struggled with prayer for a long long time. Verses like this don’t help: James 6-7 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
I waver/doubt plenty. If I should not expect anything from the Lord, why should I bother praying? The second part of James 5:16 The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Is that a positionally righteous man or a practically righteous man? Because practically I’m not in great shape. I am weak, He is strong.
Legalism kills, the law only brings forth fruit unto death.
But the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death…. (Rom 7 & 8)
Matt for Grace and Truth,
” I’d like a add one thing. People with OCD, anxiety disorders, and the like are, I believe, at greater tendency to be ravaged by the uncertainty and impossible demands of LS teachings. And that is yet another reason why the true and accurate message of God’s free grace needs to be preached, taught and proclaimed”.
What you just said is very true. In fact, I believe it is the reason why Dr. Frank B. Minirth, a Christian psychiatrist of Minirth Meier Clinics wrote an article on the psychological effects of Lordship Salvation. It is so obvious that Satan uses Lordship Salvation to his advantage to torment Christians who are anxiety prone. The Free Grace gospel of John 3:16 is the one and only true gospel. God made it so plain and simple that a child could BELIEVE and be SAVED. Amen! SOLA FIDE ALL THE WAY!
Amen! “Let’s continue to pray for one another”.
> that we will grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18),
> that we will be faithful in proclaiming and defending the gospel (Philippians 3:17),
> that we will love one another (1 Peter 1:22),
> and that we will learn to cast all of our cares upon Jesus (1 Peter 5:7).
> for the advance of the gospel. Most of the people we encounter day-to-day are lost.
I’d like to especially say amen to the last one, as I was reminded yesterday about an old friend. He used to be a guitarist and writer for Alice Cooper. He was married to his sister. I hadn’t talked to him in about three years or more. And before that, maybe another 10 years or so.
Anyways, I saw on FB that this guitarist had died, not my friend Frank, but I was led to call Frank’s store, he was a wine broker. After I left the gallery in Montecito around 1989), he opened up a wine store a few years later. He worked at an upscale grocery store and was right next store. Anyhow, at that time, I doubt I shared with him. And don’t know about when I called a few years ago, it was business for a client. I know I shared some personal things, but not sure what.
When I called yesterday, I found out that Frank too had passed away from cancer. I was so sad to hear, and reminded, nothing is more important than giving someone what they need to know to be saved from eternal death. I cannot help my past failures, but I sure pray we will all do better than the day before in sharing the gospel, in speaking His Word, in being prepared with an answer for the reason of the hope that is within us.
Jon – yes, I believe all believers for different reasons feel ‘alone’, I had a great period during my husband’s illness. But I praise God for that feeling even, for it sent me to Him. I really began to learn how we are never alone. If I had not been in need for answers, I might not have gone to His Word so often.
If I had not felt so lonely, and had found an other human to talk to about these things, I might not have prayed so often. (I did have my husband and kids, but I couldn’t go about my business crying in front of them, or sharing my concerns and fears with my husband about all these worries, I wanted him to have hope for whatever the Lord was going to give Him and my children too).
So my tears were mostly shed in prayer behind closed doors with the Lord consoling me through Words of Wisdom as I searched for answers and as I poured my heart out to Him. If I had not done that, I don’t know how I could have made it. He truly became my strength, I had none.
So as painful the years, circumstances, concerns; I praise God for every moment in that, each time I got to spend with Him because of it. I didn’ always remember to acknowledge Him in all of my ways, still don’t. I wasn’t always able to trust in Him with all of my heart, but I asked Him for His help. I couldn’t help but lean on my own understanding as each think seemed to bombard me, but I remembered and began to turn more quickly to the Lord in prayer and by His Word. Great consolation, much patience and comfort is in the Scriptures, giving us great hope, which is a true hope on a sure thing, a God who does not lie, (as you’ll see if any read Jack’s article).
Misty, William, beholdaSon and (forgive me if I missed another), but I do agree with Matt for Grace and truth’s answer, that anxiety of any kind whether a physical, mental, or emotional or circumstantial kind, is exacerbated by the impossible demands of the unbiblical doctrine of load-ship teachers.
It makes a burden that is impossible to bear, that no one has ever been able to. It angers me, I will say my anxieties were likely circumstantial; a bazillion little kids, money, business, a very ill husband, debt, responsibilities, CALGON take me away 🙂
However, the only reason I mention this is to say, we have such great Hope, and I recommend this link, along with 36 amazing things. It’s good to revive ourselves in His Word, obviously in the Psalms we see much about anxiety and fear and sickness and yet the person knew who to come to, who to cry out too. Praise God, that we have the Lord during difficult times in our lives.
Only one thing defines us, “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:1-2
Curtis – I agree, the Rock, but praise God He was our foundation. I sort of decided not to listen to diagnoses of doctors too, not saying that someone should not, but in most cases, I believe strength and reviving comes from being in His Word and I start and I finish, and I go back again. I am weak He is strong. Sharing that we all have weaknesses, is good at times to ask for prayer and in order to point to the Rock that is higher than I! 🙂
I’d like a add one thing. People with OCD, anxiety disorders, and the like are, I believe, at greater tendency to be ravaged by the uncertainty and impossible demands of LS teachings. And that is yet another reason why the true and accurate message of God’s free grace needs to be preached, taught and proclaimed.
Let’s continue to pray for one another. Among other specific needs, let us pray that we will grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18), that we will be faithful in proclaiming and defending the gospel (Philippians 3:17), that we will love one another (1 Peter 1:22), and that we will learn to cast all of our cares upon Jesus (1 Peter 5:7).
Let’s also remember to pray for the advance of the gospel. Most of the people we encounter day-to-day are lost.
We’re sorry to hear about your anxiety and depression. Me, Misty, you and another person, “beholdason” are on the same boat and we can empathize and understand what you must be going through. I’ve had OCD anxiety since I was 6 years old and I’m currently 50. We know its hard and we are familiar with that feeling of isolation, but you’re not alone. God calls for us to bear one another’s burdens through prayer and action:
Galatians 6:2 – Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
1 John 3:18 – 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with ACTIONS AND IN TRUTH.
Hang in there brother, you’re not the only one. This is a problem that I struggle with almost on a daily basis.
Happy to hear that this website has been a blessing to you. It indeed has been a blessing to me ever since I discovered it. Also, happy to hear that you will be getting those commentaries soon. They have helped me and they cover and explain many of the difficult passages in the NT that can cause anxiety for Christians like us who have OCD. You do not need to apologize. In fact, I am happy that you shared about your struggles and anxieties because it helps me to know that I am not the only one. I hope that my sharing has helped you and others too.
Scripture teaches us as Christians to bear one another’s burdens and I believe this includes sharing about our problems so that we can pray for one another and help one another with action.
Galatians 6:2 – Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
1 John 3:18 – 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with ACTIONS AND IN TRUTH.
That’s why I wanted to offer you the commentaries free of charge. I firmly believe it is not just prayer alone, but PRAYER with ACTION. James exhorts us in James 2:14-26 to put our faith into action not to be saved, but because we are saved. Putting our faith into action prevents spiritual atrophy/stagnancy. I’ve been to churchs where I basically was left alone to suffer in my worst moments.
The apostle Paul understood this well in Phiippians 2:21 – For everyone looks out for their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. Timothy really stood out. Paul exhorts us in Philippians 2:14-15, ” Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky.” When Paul was in need, the Philippian church was the only church that helped him – Philippians 4:15.
We are happy that ExPreacherMan’s Grace Gospel presentations and our fellowship of believers has benefited you in some way.
Of course we are also happy that you understand that we at ExP are not equipped to be a forum on emotional conditions.
Yet we do know that, as we emphasize, the ultimate Eternal Problem Solver is trusting Jesus Christ, by His Grace through our faith decision to believe in Him alone for our eternal salvation. (John 3:16)
Thank you, Misty,
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Thank you all so much for the advice, I have read and enjoyed most of the articles you all have mentioned. I am grateful that I found this site, and even more grateful that it is filled with caring people who know the word. William, I would especially like to thank you for your kindness in offering me the commentaries at no cost, but I feel that they are affordable, and will be purchasing the set as soon as possible. I would also like to apologize to all of you. This forum, is not about mental health, and I honestly did not mean to turn the conversation in that direction. I felt that it would be helpful to understand who I am and why I struggle so much if I shared some of my history. I appreciate all of the kindness shown, and with joy, I look forward to and read every comment. Again, I apologize if my comments caused the board to go in a different direction.
Yes, you are right. The clear unadulterated Gospel of the Grace of God is the answer to our problems.
However, ExPreacherMan is not here nor designed to diagnose or to recommend treatment or non-treatment of any physical or emotional ailments.
So let us all stick together with God’s Word, the Gospel and prayer for each other.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
What Holly said
I pray sometime I could put into words what the Rock at the Bottom of my life Jesus has brought me through the passed 5 years .
maybe i should start a blog about it .
what I could say now is be careful with P.Doc diagnoses and reading stuff about it on the internet. To Me the more you believe what a doctor says about your emotional health the more you start believing it yourself . Unless you are receiving clear gospel biblical counseling along with a psychologist or psychiatrist you are caught in a trap.
stop looking at yourself and look unto Jesus
Psa 73:24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
William, I have never been diagnosed with OCD. I do know I can obsess over things people say to me though. I have had anxiety and depression for most of my life. I believe it stems from childhood trauma. I believe I also had PTSD from abuse I witnessed as a child. I have been reading about childhood trauma lately and how much it negatively effects your mental and physical health into adulthood. A lot of people don’t seem to understand so I am hesitant to share too much. I feel very isolated a lot of the time.
William – I think that often Christians are tight-lipped about a lot of things with other believers, also with non-believers, not knowing at times how much is too much to share. Then there are other Christians daily who are making known all their issues, all their problems and seem to have no joy in anything. So, I think that people struggle with how much, when and with whom. I remember when my husband was sick, being asked and told some pretty thoughtless things, but even those things grew me in closeness with the Lord, so I thank Him for those trials, hurts, hurtful words, times of my own sickness and even the moment the Lord ‘took away’ my husband.
Blessed be the name of the Lord!
Having OCD is not easy since there is no cure and sometimes an anxiety attack can be VERY overwhelming and painful that it interferes with a person’s daily functioning. The more serious cases require heavy medication and hospitalization in a mental hospital. I’m sure there are many Christians out there who have this disorder, but some are very secretive and tight-lipped about it.
The Lord does not always heal which is the hard part to deal with a lot of times especially when the anxiety is intense and overwhelming, but God teaches that His grace is sufficient for us and that His power is made perfect in weakness. The good part of it is that the Lord can sometimes use us with this illness to comfort and encourage those who have this illness. It takes a sufferer to understand the suffering of another.
Excellent reply William and a wonderful knitting together of Scripture. It is very well done, and good insight. May we all remember to be thankful for all He has done. I think I’d like to share your post one day in the future, a little under at the moment, but will save it to the side.
Welcome! You too? Looks like you and I and Misty are on the same boat. Yes, I agree, it is because of the fall of man that we now currently have things that were never originally meant to be. God does not always heal and I understand why because sometimes healings do not produce faith in people. Take for instance the Jews in John 12:37 who refused to believe in Jesus despite the fact that He performed miracle after miracle in their presence.
Another example is the 10 lepers that Jesus healed in Luke 17:11-17. Jesus healed all 10, but only 1 comes back to give thanks and praise to Jesus. It appears that the other 9 just took Jesus for granted. Back then, having leprosy was a serious illness and matter, not only did the lepers suffer the effects of the disease, but they also suffered the rejection and social exclusion from society.
The magnitude of that healing was great, but the fact that only ONE comes back to give thanks and praise says a lot about human nature. God does not always heal because He knows us too well inside and out.
2 Corinthians 12:8-10 – Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.
William & Misty
My OCD/Anxiety disorder has been around since I was 6.
I’m glad for it. It gives me the opportunity to reach sufferers with the same condition (which I attribute to the fall and sin) with the Gospel of hope.
Thank God for our weakness.
He is strong for us.
Amen Matt – I agree with you on children and not understanding… I don’t know how hold, but I think of the promised land and the age that the Lord let those enter, and the ones that didn’t. God is extremely long suffering and merciful.
Misty, we need to remember He bought us, He purchased us with His precious blood, He laid down His life for us knowing exactly who were were, as John said, 2000 years before these things were happening. And He knows what you’ll next week and the week after, and forgave you. If you believe upon Him, His work in your place, you are saved. If you have believed a gospel that says you must earn your salvation, before, during or after, they have still put a load on top of the gospel that doesn’t belong there. The Gospel is eternal, the free gift, eternal, so we have to remember, before, during or after is still addition.
If you have believed the gospel, then the reason people have doubts is bad teaching, a lack of being in the strong meat of His Word, bad company, besetting sins, etc., all which the enemy can use to accuse us. Armor up each day. Go over the points of your armor with Him and prepare yourself with the gospel some each day…
Curtis, good advice remaining care out there, I too determined to really try to do most of my ‘proving’ beforehand, then Word in hand after that. The Word is truth, and so it is also great advice regarding statements of faiths,, and their gospels (if you can find it). And worse? People like Michael Brown or even Ray Comfort will have sort of a generic gospel on their statement of faith, yet teach something totally different..
“William, not sure if I posted this, but I have a form of OCD, known as scrupulosity.”
Have you thought about going to see a psychotherapist for this problem? I know how you feel because this is a tough one. In the past, I’ve seen secular psychotherapists, Christian psychotherapists, Christian psychologists, taken various medication, tried hypnosis, prayed about it over and over again, but none of it worked. Sometimes I really hate myself for having this disorder. I know how hard it is, but I know I’m not alone and you’re not alone. There are many people who have this disorder not just in Christianity, but in other religions as well.
I know it’s hard for people who don’t have this disorder to understand what we go through. The fellow believers in my former church just could not and would not understand. It was very frustrating and hard when everyone got tired of me and just pushed me off to one side to suffer alone, but God has blessed me with a wife who has been with me all these years. She’s not perfect and she has her moments when she gets tired of seeing me with this illness.
The apostle Paul had some kind of lingering illness that just drove him to his knees and he asked God 3 times to remove it, but God would not. I’m not sure if his illness was mental or physical because the Bible does not say. Paul referred to it as a ” a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.”
To this day, no one knows what that “thorn” was. God offered Paul the following words in 2 Corinthians 12:9 – And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
I know how you feel because I have had OCD all my life and it is not easy. I have thought based OCD which comes and goes and it’s going to be with me for the rest of my life until Christ returns.
he hath made him to be sin for us
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
the love of God toward us
live through him.
1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Misty, Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 4:5 and 5:6). He did that 2,000 years before you had ever committed a single sin. He paid the full price for ALL of your sins way back then.
He tasted death for EVERY man (Hebrews 2:9).
You can trust God’s Word. He cannot lie.
Condemnation and guilt is (in your type of situation) from the flesh and/or the enemy, and you are perhaps more susceptible to infection of same due to your OCD. But meditate, remember, and often remind yourself that:
I am deemed 100 percent righteous in Christ.
All of my past, present and future sins are forgiven and forgotten completely by God.
I am totally accepted (FREELY favored) by God in the Beloved Jesus.
Jesus paid ALL of my sin debt. ALL means EVERY sin, big or small.
So I can approach God any and all times with boldness, knowing He sees me as PERFECT in Jesus.
GRACE is UNdeserved favor. Do you deserve judgment? If yes, you qualify for God’s grace and blessing!
What a perfect salvation and Savior we have!
becarefull with you-tube vids. myself personally I turned everything off for a time and studied the gospel on my own. I also adopted my own personal doctrinal statement . The one on expreacherman is one of the best around and I obsessed over a lot of doctrinal statement’s.
I also determined for a time not to sit under a pulpit or listen to a teacher or read a book unless I am certain they line up with my doctrinal statement.
I know William means well but please becarefull with Jacksmack vids as well I can appreciate Jack’s passion in sharing the gospel and teaching BUT we cant go around condemning souls to hell because they read another translation .
The only Preachers and teacher’s I would endorse are those found on Expreacherman the moderators here are real sharp
Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Misty, btw, so happy you are not going back to that church. My suggestion because of all the ‘voices’ is that you are really careful with youtube, or media where they have not been ‘proven’ by other believers who are strong in the faith. Remember, there are MANY deceivers out there…. Can’t go wrong by refreshing in the book of John. The reason I asked what you were studying and how, is that it’s an important part of our growth. It’s like having diabetes or hypoglycemia and not eating right. You’ll just get worse and worse, and not desire to eat because you’ll be so sick.
James says if you commit one sin; you have committed them all. Sin is sin and forgiveness is FREELY given by God if you accept it.
NOBODY who is saved by GRACE will say anything different. We KNOW we cant boast about salvation…that we somehow earned it.
Eph 2:8-9 – For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
Romans 3 :24-27 – Being justified FREELY by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? IT IS EXCLUDED. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
your children – they ARE in heaven. Although Calvinists would say “we dont know if the were elected or not”
Paul was born jewish; he was a pharisee. Its WAS who he was; his identity.
Paul wrote – For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (Romans 7:9)
When was Paul NEVER under the LAW since he was born jewish and he was a pharisee?????
When Paul was born, he did not understand the law; thus he was ALIVE without the law. Your kids never understood the law-they ARE in heaven.
Wouldn’t it be cool if the first people you meet and hug in heaven are your children. 🙂
Misty, No matter how horrible our sins, he has forgiven us. On FB, I have a wonderful friend who has had two prior abortions, and she is a believer too. Then she had a full term still birth, she was devastated. Later she adopted her sister-in-law’s baby, and they had more children, she is a beautiful believer right now, yet still confesses to struggling with her flesh in certain areas. We all do. Some have tempers, some maybe physical habits. Guard you heart, most especially from things that are ‘Christian’ like movies or books or sermons. Just get into the Word, and just trust the Holy Spirit to work through the Word. Take the multitude of counsel when you see recommendations here that several you respect share with you, then if you have time, go read, and do it with your Bible open, and in constant prayer, (I Thess 5:21, Acts 17:11;1 John 4:1)
We’re praying you will turn your focus to Him, the one who bought and paid for you with His blood, not His blood + some of your works 🙂 In Christ, Holly
If God can forgive my darkest sins, and if God can forgive King David’s darkest sins of adultery and murder, He can and has forgiven yours. Christ’s death atonement on the cross covered ALL our sins, past, present, and future. Remember when I mentioned about the Corinthian Christians of Paul’s time? Paul affirmed that they were saved despite the awful and sinful condition they were in.
1 John 1:8-9 – 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 2:1 – My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
I don’t think you did. I have suffered from OCD ever since I was 6 and I’ve had this disorder my whole life and I am currently 50. My wife is one of the few women who can tolerate a man with this kind of a disorder. I am up on YouTube and my screen name is wtom04. I don’t have a channel, but I’m usually up there making comments and refuting false doctrine.
Would you like the commentary that I suggested? I can have the publisher send it to you free of charge. I believe that this commentary will help relieve the anxiety/fear that you experience when you come across difficult and hard to understand passages.
William, not sure if I posted this, but I have a form of OCD, known as scrupulosity.
All of you guys are precious to me. I get excited when I see a new comment in my email. William, you seem like you are probably most familiar with my struggles. Do you have a youtube channel? Holly, you asked if I attend church with my independent baptist friend. I went with her about 3 or four times,and she keeps wanting me to go back, but I will not ever go there agai! I was already sitting there terrified, and the pastor starts preaching on a reprobate mind, so I got up and went outside, and started crying out to God to forgive me for my years of being backslidden. I regret walking away, I regret the choices I made during that time. I went to a clinic, and did the “unthinkable!” I was supposedly a christian when I made the choice to terminate a pregnancy, and I did this more than one time. That was fourteen years ago, and I live with the horror of what I chose to do. I pray that God will have mercy on me. What I just confessed is my deepest, and darkest sin. I feel alone and condemned. I do however believe that there Ida glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. You guys are a tremendous blessing to me! I am reading the stuff that you suggest and for the first time in years, I want to live, before I was yearning for death, believing that it would end the misery I have been dealing with. Keep praying for me, it is working.
Yes, God has been very gracious to me and I have been blessed much through this website and by the comments that you, Jack, John, and others have made. Are you keeping in contact with Misty outside of this website via e-mail or Facebook?
Since Jack has rules about not giving out e-mails, etc., what I can do is have the 2 volume commentary sent directly to Misty from the publisher. What do you think? I can relate with Misty’s anxiety and fear when she comes across difficult passages in the NT because this is what I used to experience myself when I was a younger believer.
I believe that just reading God’s Word is not enough and I really believe we should all have a good commentary as well as expositional articles which break down and explain the difficult passages from a Free Grace point of view. I remember my anxieties went down greatly with the help of these resources. It’s especially hard for Christians who suffer from anxiety disorders such as obsessive-compulsive disorder to read the difficult passages and to experience fear/anxiety.
Fear and anxiety is definitely a hindrance to spiritual growth and the person just gets stuck going around in a vicious circle and Satan can use that to his advantage.
God is so good to guide us, we need to acknowledge Him in all our ways. Trust in Him. Trust Him with the difficult passages, but study them with His approval always. He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
William, I am blessed to hear your testimony of His goodness in your life.
I wanted to comment on what you said, “The bible causes me fear because I always go to the scary passages and believe they are referring to me”. I used to do that a lot when I was a much younger and inexperienced believer. I would go to Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-27, John 15:2,6, Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3;29, and Luke 12:10, Revelation 3:5.
Those passages would scare me into thinking that I could lose my salvation or never had it to begin with and I would be scared that I had committed the “unpardonable sin”. As I look back, I am now convinced that Satan was using those passages out of context in an attempt to try to create as much distress as possible regarding my salvation and by doing that, my assurance would be eroded away literally preventing me from growing spiritually. As I mentioned earlier, I suffered from obsessive-compulsive disorder and I believe that Satan used that to his advantage.
Satan used Scripture out of context when he tempted Jesus, but Jesus refuted him every time. Later, as I got a hold of some expositional articles on those passages from a theological library and from a Free Grace Commentary and got the true Biblical interpretation that was in line with the rest of Scripture, my anxieties about losing salvation went away.
If you would like, I can get you the 2 volume set of the Grace New Testament Commentary free of charge. This 2 volume set is written from a Free Grace perspective. I am serious because this commentary has been a great help in helping me understand the difficult passages in the New Testament that can create unnecessary anxiety in Christians. The commentary covers from Matthew to Revelation.
” (I was saved young and had intermittent periods of sanctification but not much until the early 2000′s). And even then, seemed as slow as a snail, but it seemed God needed to undo and get me to unlearn certain things so my walls could be built properly.”
It was the same for me, being saved at 19, I did not grow much in the early years. It was not until the Lord chastised me that I started to have growth. My growth was like yours being intermittent, but I really started to grow more and learn more when I started visiting this website and listening to sermons by Ralph Yankee Arnold, Hank Lindstrom, and Thomas Cucuzza and reading the comments by you, Jack, John, Preston, Curtis, etc. I’ve learned so much from you guys that I have a big stack of papers just filled with notes that I’ve written down. The things that I have learned from you guys are among one of my most precious possessions.
YouTube has also been a great help to me as well. There’s a good Free Grace speaker that goes by the screen name “Jacksmack 77” (Matthew Corelle) who has done a wonderful job in refuting Calvinism, Lordship Salvation, Arminianism, and Pentacostalism and has done a great job in defending the Free Grace gospel.
Let’s all continue to pray for Misty!
Misty, we need the Lord and His Word to begin to change (Lk 10:38-42)…. As William mentioned, some of us slower than others. I’d hate to name the decades (I was saved young and had intermittent periods of sanctification but not much until the early 2000’s). And even then, seemed as slow as a snail, but it seemed God needed to undo and get me to unlearn certain things so my walls could be built properly. Comparing myself to others did what you did to yourself, very destructive, and if I did it now, I’d grow discouraged, but my job is to endure with Him by abiding in Him and abiding in His Word. I fail, but the benefit is for me and others.
I think of a few verses and passages. Jesus prayed for us to be sanctified by the Word of God.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truthJn 17:17
…..even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word Eph 5:25b-26
Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way?
by taking heed thereto according to thy word. Ps 119:9
Since this was spoken to Timothy (already saved), we know this cannot speak to eternal life. So what are they being saved from? Lack of Assurance? Being Deceived? Being ineffective at planting or sowing? Chastening? Consequences of our actions?
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1 Tim 4:16
So to me? This passage spells it out quite a bit. The elders were warned, but today, warning is considered a lack of unity. Are many pastors taking heed to the flock and to the doctrine? I don’t think so. What about commending them to the Word of His Grace? Nope, usually their latest and greatest best seller, or their sermons filled with proof-texts, verses used out of context, and exclusion of much of the counsel of God in order to draw away disciples after themselves.
Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. Acts 20:26-32
That’s was good William, we do still sin and will until we die. Not sure how anyone is somehow assured they have not sinned enough to be assured of salvation.
It is by the Word and talking to God, and fellowship with others who are believers too that we grow.
I also wanted to make another comment regarding what you said, ” If I am
forgiven then why do I still have behaviors (feelings and attitudes) that don’t glorify God? I am terrified that Jesus is coming back, and I am going to miss the rapture.”
Changes in behavior, feelings, and attitudes are not automatic AFTER a person is saved and these things do not in any way affect our eternal salvation in Jesus Christ. Dr. Cucuzza taught in one of his sermons that Christians SHOULD have changes in behavior, feelings, and attitudes AFTER we are saved. It is NOT MUST because that would be WORKS SALVATION, and it is NOT WILL because that would be Calvinism.
Our behaviors, and attitudes after we are saved will incur God’s discipline if they are sinful and are persistent. This is normal because God loves His children much the same way we love our children and we discipline them when they are out of line. – Proverbs 3:11-12
Proverbs 3:11-12 – My son, do not despise the Lord’s discipline,and do not resent his rebuke, because the Lord disciplines those he loves as a father the son he delights in.
It is SHOULD and it takes time. I’m still learning and changes in behavior, feelings, and attitudes took years for me to change and these things vary from person to person depending on their personality traits and temperament. One important thing to remember is that changes in behavior, feelings, and attitudes affect our FELLOWSHIP with God and with others, and our eternal rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ where all Christians will experience either rebuke, reprimand, commendation, or the gain or loss of eternal rewards – 2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, BUT their eternal salvation remains intact because it is a free gift from God bestowed on those who simply BELIEVE in Jesus. Jesus did it ALL on the cross. We do nothing. That’s the grace of God – Titus 3:5
2 Corinthians 5:10 – For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Remember, the Judgment Seat of Christ is NOT about eternal destiny, but about ETERNAL REWARDS.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 – 10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss BUT YET WILL BE SAVED—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Changes in behavior, and attitudes are discipleship/sanctification issues which are lifelong because we still sin after we’re saved.
Misty, also as John answered, Esau’s birthright had nothing to do with salvation. You cannot give away your salvation. When we believe we now BELONG to the Son. We are a GIFT by the Father. We will not lose our salvation, we will not walk away, we now belong to Christ, and are a part of His Body. We have passed from darkness into light, from death unto life, we have already been translated into the Kingdom of His dear Son (from Col 1:13), we are already seated in heavenly places, our new man forgiven, and perfected forever for each and every sin, past, present, future (Heb 10:10,14). As one recent book says something to this extent, and I’ll have to look up the author, “Salvation in three tenses”, (not verbatim),
For those of us who HAVE believed (which is a one time event for the receiving of the free gift of salvation), this is how salvation works.
In the PAST we have been delivered from the PENALTY of sin (already given eternal life as a gift and sealed with the Spirit).
In the PRESENT, we are being delivered from the POWER of sin in our lives (varying degrees depending on our cooperation or lack thereof. We need to be in the Word, prayer, fellowship with other believers who understand the clear gospel and take heed to the doctrine).
In the FUTURE we will be delivered from the PRESENCE of sin.
Anyone who has believed, the Father GIVES to the Son by translating us into His Kingdom, by His Power and His Will.
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that EVERY ONE which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:39-40
No one means NO ONE. Never means NEVER. Any man means ANY man, including ourselves.
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one. John 10:28-30
Misty, Another thing I’d like to answer if I may is regarding this statement:
“So Holly maybe I have never been saved even though I asked when I was a child, and then again at 21, and 100′s of times afterwards. I can’t save myself or get rid of my attitude on my own, so maybe I do not know the Lord, but then again, I am not able to just totally walk away and forget him either.
First, we do not have to ‘ask’ to be saved. It is a matter of believing that He did it for you, and that there is nothing you can do. I think that you have a problem with the latter.
In being saved, we recognize that we are a sinner and one whose penalty is death. There is no works we can offer, before, during or after that can help get us saved. Not by any works of righteousness we have done, but it is by His grace through faith we are saved. It is a free gift, and we cannot repent from enough sins, because no one that is not perfect can enter into the kingdom of heaven. Christ is the only way, the only way for us to be made righteous, not of works, lest any man/woman should boast.
You are somehow counting on your works or behavior to prove you are saved, but the Bible tells us how we can KNOW.
It ‘sounds’ like you have believed the record God gave of His Son, that He died on the cross, was buried and rose again, all for us, for our sins, so we might be reconciled to the Father through Jesus His Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God ; that ye may know that ye have eternal life , and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13
Or do you believe there is another way to be saved?
What do you believe you MUST do in order to be saved? And really dig deep and ask yourself, do I think I need to turn from sin, or at least desire to? Should I have sorrow? Should I have proof by my behavior? Which of those things (or name your own) might be in your understanding of what it takes to be saved?
Misty, I have a few things to say too, I pray you will take them in the spirit in which it’s given, because I believe that I can relate to you by a period in my own life. Any presumption I make that has nothing to do with you, please overlook and assume I am speaking of my own experience, o.k.? And please know I am praying for you.
You said a few things I want to address first, so will try to do in short responses. You said, I know that jesus died for the sins of the world, but I struggle to believe he died for me. No, wait. I believe he died for me, but somehow, I just never was able to get it together.
You believe He died for you? That’s good because we know God is not a liar. He says He died for all. He is the Saviour of ALL men, but especially those who believe we see in 1 Tim 4:10. That does not mean all men are saved, but He died for all.
The second part, “You were just never able to get it together”. And you won’t as long as you are not spending time in His Word, studying with just His approval in mind. Stop looking at others, stop looking at your own performance, and tell the Lord you will try to talk to Him about more things, and you will also try to read the Word every single day (with His help). Any ‘getting it together on your own is useless anyways, it will not work’.
Your job is to spend time with Him, so may I ask you, what are you reading right now? Verses here and there? Men or teachers? Share with me if you will, what you have read lately and I’ll continue with my answer. There is no judgment in this question, it is an honest attempt to help, so if nothing, say so, if just troublesome passages, let me know. Also, have you been attending your best friend’s church?
And no, I would never put up with a man hitting me, I am part of the sin by allowing it to go on. Abuse should not be permitted in a marriage which is a picture of the body of Christ. And if hitting me, he might hit the children if he has not already. I won’t say much more, but think of this, you say your friend is a believer. She then is the bride of Christ. What will Christ do to this man, her husband, for abusing her when the marriage is to be a picture of the relationship between Christ and the church? Don’t look to others for examples, often, we see only a small part of the picture. Or worse, we might be looking to a mother Teresa type and saying, “she did such good works, how could I ever compete”? So we know there are those in religions that do plenty of good, are humble, even kind, but it doesn’t get them saved.
It appears that Satan is causing you to doubt your salvation and he knows that once a person BELIEVES that person is instantly saved eternally at that moment and nothing can undo it. Satan will move to the next best thing, which is your ASSURANCE of salvation. He will try his best to erode away your assurance making you confused and uncertain. He will do that by trying to convince you that you’re not saved by using your failures to accuse you. When I was a younger believer I had moments where I was not sure if I was saved, but it was because I did not understand the nature of eternal life. I thought that it could be lost.
Another contributing factor was that for a short period of time I was led astray by the false teachings of John MacArthur which caused me to doubt my salvation. I also am obsessive-compulsive and have obsessive compulsive disorder which was another contributing factor. I was young and immature and lacked spiritual discernment and experience, but now I know better. It’s not good to rely on our feelings, emotions, and works as evidence of our salvation because those are not accurate indicators and that is the wrong place to look.
We are SAVED because we have BELIEVED in an unfailing Savior – John 10:28-29, Romans 8:38-39, Romans 11:29, 2 Timothy 2:13. It is Christ’s finished work on the cross with His shed blood, death, and resurrection that saved us, not our works.
In response to your statement, ” If I am forgiven then why do I still have behaviors (feelings and attitudes) that don’t glorify God? I am terrified that Jesus is coming back, and I am going to miss the rapture. ” Misty, you have those behaviors, feelings and attitudes that don’t glorify God because you are human and still have the sin nature. I have to admit that I still have behaviors, feelings and attitudes that don’t glorify God. I sometimes swear and cuss and say 4 letter words when I’m frustrated, or angry and say things that I should not say, and have evil thoughts, thoughts of lust, I throw things, BUT does that mean I’m unsaved?? NO.
ALL Christians still sin AFTER we are saved. Even the apostle Paul still sinned AFTER he was saved which prompted him to write Romans 7:14-25. In this passage, Paul describes the struggle that he goes through which is also true of me and every Christian on the face of this earth. 1 John 1:8-9, 1 John 2:1 was written for a reason. Were they written because Christians no longer sin AFTER they’re saved? NO. They were written because Christians do sin AFTER they’re saved and will continue to do so until Christ returns.
If you still have behaviors, feelings and attitudes that don’t glorify God, you should check out the Corinthian Christians of Paul’s time:
1 Corinthians 3:3 – there was envying, strife, and divisions among the Corinthian Christians.
1 Corinthians 5:1-5 – a Christian man was having sex with his step mother.
1 Corinthians 6:7 – there were lawsuits among the Christians.
1 Corinthians 7:2 – there was fornication among the Christian men.
1 Corinthians 11:21 – there were Christians hogging up all the food and drunkenness at the Lord’s Supper.
Sounds pretty bad, doesn’t it? In fact, most people would think that these people in the Corinthian church were not saved. These behaviors, feelings, and attitudes sure did not glorify God, BUT Paul affirmed the fact that they are saved when he addressed them as “sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy” in 1 Cor 1:2, as “brothers” in 1 Cor 1:10, 1:26, 2:1, as “brothers” that were carnal and “babes in Christ” in 1 Cor 3:1 as “brothers” in 1 Cor 4:6, as “my dear children” in 1 Cor 4:14, as “brothers” in 1 Cor 10:1, as “brothers” in 1 Cor 14:20, 1 Cor 15:1.
The fact that Paul addressed these people with these names indicates that they were indeed saved and possessing eternal life, but they were living in gross sin. I’m sure God chastised the Corinthians, but loss of salvation is NEVER one of the consequences. Paul would never have addressed them this way if they were not saved.
Misty, look at King David, his feelings and behaviors sure did not glorify God when he committed adultery with Bathsheba and then murdered her husband. God chastised him with a series of painful experiences, but King David’s salvation in God remains intact. King Solomon is another example of one whose behaviors did not glorify God when he became an idolater at the end of his life, and he also built 2 altars to 2 demonic gods, Chemosh and Molech for child sacrifices in 1 Kings 11:7.
Samson was a man of God who slept with a prostitute, but he’s saved. Noah was a man of God who got drunk and naked in Genesis 9:21. Lot was a Godly man, but then he sleeps with his 2 daughters in Genesis 19:30-36.
These were ALL GODLY people who engaged in behaviors that did not glorify God, but they were still saved. I’m sure there were negative consequences, God’s chastisement, etc, BUT loss of salvation is NEVER one of the consequences.
Hang in there, Misty, hope this helps!
if you have believed (put total confidence in the gospel) you are SEALED.
Eph 1:13 – In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise
Eph 4:30 – And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are SEALED unto the day of redemption
– notice you are sealed unto your redemption (cant be unsealed)
2 Cor 1:21-22 – 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also SEALED US, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts
guess what??? once you are “sealed” you are included in the rapture!!!!!
To the extremely carnal church at Corinth, Paul wrote, “51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not ALL sleep, but we shall ALL be changed” 1 Cor 15:51
– SEE the word “ALL”. yes even the most carnal of born again Christians WILL be raptured according to the apostle Paul—-we shall ALL be changed.
Praying for you Misty
If I may suggest Please put aside ALL denomination’s for a time and study what John suggest to do. You have got to know the Gospel for yourself and allow the Gospel to know you AS You are.
I know some what of what you are going through. when I trusted Jesus as Savior I was expecting fireworks and feelings but you cant do that I am saved simply because God said so and God can not lie
Tit_1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Heb_6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
I grew up in an area were it is all works for salvation. PA Dutch, River Brethren , Dunkard’s, Amish ,Menonite, United Christian they all are deeply en grained in the culture here .
My father grew up under strict Mennonite and rebelled against it.
the devastation and mental emotional abuse that doctrine has caused on our family not enough words.
In most of these religious households I later found out Love is never expressed only wrongs are pointed out and never a word of encouragement.
It is hard I know coming out from condemnation Please take it easy on yourself and Forgive yourself. God does not condemn us. Sin has been Paid for.
So please Please read the scriptures for your self and forget about what other people think. Ask God for wisdom .
The enemy will use condemnation against you and play you like a base fiddle.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I am sorry for your friend , maybe God would use you to minister to this family with THE Gospel.
Misty, once someone believes in Jesus as Savior, he need not wait around to see if it “stuck.” If the “it” that you are looking to see if it “stuck” is a changed life, then you are looking in the wrong place. We can never get assurance from looking at ourselves or other people.
You said: “Sometimes I don’t won’t to be around her because I feel so bad and condemned when I see her goodness and how precious she is to God.”
My comment: Misty, you can’t compare yourself to other people. How does your friend compare to Christ? Not even close! What if your friend never existed? What if you were the only person on earth? How do YOU compare to Christ? Not even close! That’s why we need CHRIST’s righteousness – because we have none of our own. You don’t, I don’t, your friend doesn’t.
Esau traded his birthright for a bowl of porridge. I believe the point of the account is that short-term gratification can be really expensive. If we live for ourselves today, it may be at the expense of rewards in heaven.
Misty, please read the booklet “The Gospel” by Ron Shea. It is linked below.
Please pay particular attention to the bottom of page 19 and to the section on “Assurance” on page 20.
Click to access the-gospel.pdf
Misty, I am praying for you. God loves you so much.
Thank you guys for staying in touch. Maybe I haven’t ever believed. I know that jesus died for the sins of the world, but I struggle to believe he died for me. No, wait. I believe he died for me, but somehow, I just never was able to get it together. I have watched other christians and seen how spiritual they are. I have asked God to save me about 500 times, yet I have never felt like it “stuck.” My best friend is independent Baptist. She is super spiritual, very humble, and submissive to an abusive husband, and I unfortunately have a personality more like Joyce Meyers. I am the one saying to her that I would not put up with that stuff. Telling her that I would set him straight! Then I feel bad for having those feelings and try harder to be like her. Sometimes I don’t won’t to be around her because I feel so bad and condemned when I see her goodness and how precious she is to God. I sometimes feel that we are Cain and Abel. I have layed with my face to the floor begging for his mercy, but I still feel the same. If I am forgiven then why do I still have behaviors (feelings and attitudes) that don’t glorify God? I am terrified that Jesus is coming back, and I am going to miss the rapture. The bible causes me fear because I always go to the scary passages and believe they are referring to me.So Holly maybe I have never been saved even though I asked when I was a child, and then again at 21, and 100’s of times afterwards. I can’t save myself or get rid of my attitude on my own, so maybe I do not know the Lord, but then again, I am not able to just totally walk away and forget him either.Can someone explain the scripture in Hebrews about Esau though he sought it with tears he could never get it back. Have I sold my birthright? ?
Misty, I am praying with you with William and I know others here. William gave some good passages which should help. We need His Word and we need to be constantly talking to Him. Praying for solid Christian friends for you, and praying for the renewing of your mind. Praying for His peace to come over you as His Word settles on you like the rain and the snow from the mountains (pp of Is 55:10-11). His Word will penetrate, but it should not be a terror to those who have believed. It should be by the patience and comfort of the Scriptures, we will have HOPE (Rom 15:4)
Read Jack’s article above on what BIBLE HOPE is…
Hope things are going well for you. I’m still praying for you that you will grow strong in Christ and I hope that you can get the commentary on the New Testament that I recommended which is written from a Free Grace perspective. Again, I would not recommend you going to just any local church. I am saying this because there are just way too many false teachers in MANY churches out there in our society teaching false doctrine. A good Free Grace church is very hard to find. The Bible is full of warnings against false doctrine and just because someone quotes the Bible does not automatically guarantee that the person is teaching the truth. Even Satan quoted Scripture when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness – Matthew 4:1-7. Satan does not feed us poison directly, he hides it in the meat.
Matthew 7:15 – Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
1) False doctrine can confuse immature Christians – Ephesians 4:14 – Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.
2) False doctrine can destroy people’s faith – 1 Timothy 4:1-2 – Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
3) God’s Word teaches that we must test every teacher, correct their errors, and even rebuke them if necessary – 1 Thessalonians 5:21 – Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Acts 17:11 – Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
4) Don’t be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings:
Galatians 1:6-9 – 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
2 Corinthians 11:4 – For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
2 Peter 2:1-3 – But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
Hope this helps!
It is good to remember believing is being persuaded of something that is true.
So it’s good to keep the truth ever before our friends and loved ones, believing that His Word is able to make people wise unto salvation, His Gospel, the power of God unto salvation. We need to be prepared daily with His gospel.
We make it too hard. Do we believe the world is round? Yes, because it is.
Do we believe that Jesus is Lord (God, the Messiah), that He is the only one who can save us? That He died to save us from the penalty of our sin. That He was buried, as we too died with Him when we believed. That He rose from he dead, proving He is God, that He had victory over death, He is our Savior. It is all what He did, nothing of what we have done. It takes no work to believe something that is true. But to be assured of that truth, we need to be in His Word, and keep the Gospel ever before us daily as part of our armor.
Thank you for the reminder about Hank Lindstom I listened to his messages on youtube . I love his peaceful steady assuring voice . He was one of the first God used to bring me to the Truth of the Gospel. He had a very simplistic approach towards the scripture. Nothing so impressive as simplicity
You do need to study the Gospel for yourself a prayer of declaration I myself made before God is and continues I shall not be self righteously Ignorant of THE Gospel.
do you know the Gospel and also does the Gospel know you ?
Study your workmanship
2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
William, I spoke to Jack and Shirley yesterday. Jack has been undergoing tests to determine his preparedness for surgery.
He is appreciative of everyone’s prayers on his behalf.
Does anyone know how Jack is doing?
Misty, I agree with Preston that you should read the book of John first. I also suggest that you read the book of Galatians which is the apostle Paul’s defense of the gospel. When I was a much younger Christian, I used to misinterpret Scripture to the point where I scared myself too. I recommend that you also get a good commentary on the New Testament written from a Free Grace theological perspective. A good one that I have is, “The Grace New Testament Commentary” which is a 2 volume commentary on the NT. It’s available up on Amazon for under $30. I’ve read through it time and again and it’s very good on eternal security, faith alone in Christ alone apart from works, and assurance of salvation.
Misty – I do not know if you are on FB, but I think there are some good suggestions here, and if you are on FB, friend me at Holly Sprenger Garcia. If not, John is free to give you my email. In Christ’s love. I agree, start with John and read/study it several times, knowing that of all books, it’s purpose statement is found in John 20:30-31. So knowing the reason it was written, is all the more reason to study it intently. I know Dr. Hank Lindstrom has a series on the book of John, here is the link, the first is at the bottom. Please feel free to stop and ask questions if you are stuck with anything.
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
And I also highly recommend this by Dr. Ralph (Yankee) Arnold, a good way to remember where things are in any book of the Bible.
Also – I would read the gospel of John first. THEN read it 3 times more BEFORE moving to another book.
The purpose of the book—John 20:31 – But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name
When you read it – substitute “believe” FOR “put total confidence in; trust”. For example….John 6:47 – Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth (puts total confidence in; trusts) on me hath everlasting life.
Personally – i would then read Romans, 1 Corinthians (where the gospel is declared 15:1-4), then Galatians.
We are ALL here to help. Feel free to “blast out” any scripture that is bothering you.
Misty, please read the “Goals” section at the top of the Home page for ExPreacherMan. Following is a set of criteria that I use to help evaluate scriptural interpretations:
1. Is it consistent with eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone?
2. Is it consistent with eternal security?
3. Is it consistent with assurance of eternal life, based on God’s promises alone? (i.e., it is not internally-focused on changes in attitudes, behavior, etc.)?
If a scriptural interpretation clears ALL 3 tests, it might be true. Otherwise, it can be categorically dismissed as false. Please note that most of the more subtle attacks on the gospel will clear the first two tests, but not the third.
Misty, please study scripture for yourself, as Curtis suggested. Pray for wisdom.
If you have specific questions, please continue to ask them.
Also, please see the “Difficult Verses” section. We have begun to develop Biblical responses to some of the Lordship “Salvationists'” favorite verses that they take out of context and misinterpret to continue to perpetuate their false gospels of works.
I would recommend Holly if some how you ladies could get together. The place you are at ladies should counsel ladies IMHO
The only preachers i would recommend listening to is Ralph Yankee Arnold or Tom Cuzza from this site.
For me personally it was hard for me to listen to Yankee at first because of the high level dose of Truth i was getting.
Yankee has Live church service as well
It takes time Misty allow yourself the grace to discover the truth of the Gospel.
Thank you so much for the warnings about Tullian Tchividjian. I am not an experienced christian, and I was so desperate to hear someone preaching on Gods grace that I settled. I am really desperate to get back in Gods word, but for some reason I feel fear when I go to read it! I am asking if there is anyone here that would help me through the new testament. Maybe coach me, because I am misinterpreting passages to the point that I am scaring myself. I did not mention but when I was was a young girl, my only exposure to church was my aunt taking me to the Pentecostal, holiness church. She has always scared me about God, so I do not go to her.I am so desperate to please God, but something has to happen for me to have an attitude change. I have cried so many tears to God, begging him to forgive me and have mercy on me. I think the problem is that I am condemning myself to the point of despair. If anyone is willing to disciple me through the new testament, I will apply myself and work hard.
People don’t sometimes equate Calvinistic or Lordship teaching with the law.
Usually they see the Law, as either the 10 commandments, or as what was given to the Jews. The Law is one unit comprised of 613 commandments (the number is usually agreed upon).
Here are some ways that they require works for being saved. Many require repentance from sin (listed as repent from wrongdoing) on the list of commandments compiled by Maimonides, taken from Numbers 5:7.
There are also many that require for you to confess your (sins) wrongoings (Num 5:7) as part of your salvation. I.E. John MacArthur, on one of his pages has that very thing listed, or you are “going to hell” he says.
This is adding works of the law to our justification. There is more that they do in their gospel additions, but it’s important for us to realize the purpose of the law, and it has nothing to do with being made righteous or being justified. And their gospel is accursed because of adding works of the law. (Gal 1:6-9)
Dear Misty, We love because He first loved us, so getting to know more and more about His love, enables us to love others.
I saw where you said the church is part of the Acts 29 planting… Dear sister, FLEE! That is Matt Chandler, and no matter how nice they may seem, in speaking how they are a failure, a sinner, they speak of their total depravity, their inability to seek God at all, and how God draws only some, and others He chooses for hell. He is a Calvinist and Lordship teacher. This would make sense why you are in such fear. Trust me, what sounds good can still cause fear and even death as we see from the time of the garden of Eden.
The other guy Steve Brown is a five-point Calvinist who urges people to cuss, says people should burn Dave Hunt’s book criticizing his hero Richard Foster (Foster is way out there). He also says the only super Christians he can think of is Mother Teresa and Billy Graham (Roman Catholic and Lordship). He is ecumenical and wears a new-age bracelet to help with physical ailments, joking he ‘tried Jesus and it didn’t work, so he’s trying this”…
People appropriate the name of “Grace” very often, usually Calvinists. I pray you will withdraw from these people before it cost you more pain, and your children even. It may cost them their very souls. Jack would tell you if he was here, his testimony of having been raised in a Calvinist church. Don’t think you can chew the meat and spit out the bones. There is poison in the meat too….
Be careful with the Radical Grace movement I have been down that rabbit hole myself coming out of my own legalism. Yes we can live as we choose BUT BUT we don’t have permission and there is consequences of sin.
We also still have a sin nature that some deny as you closer to Gnosticism.
I have been called an antinomian more times then I can remember. Since the bible says NO LAW for salvation, that the law makes faith void, the law makes Gods promise of none effect, the law “frustrates” grace…….so yes I am antinominan (FOR salvation).
Jack does not like us to post out email. If you do, he deletes it (I tried to give it to a Lordship Salvationist on this blog; and yes, Jack deleted it). He doesn’t want to be responsible for any future emails – I CAN understand that.
However, he has given out emails “behind the scenes”.
John/Jack – you can give her mine ——OR to anyone for that matter. In fact, Feel free to give it to Piper, Washer, Graham, the Pope, etc!!!!
Misty, please don’t overlook anyone teaching the false doctrine of predestination. It is a HUGE error. The Bible repeatedly calls eternal life the Gift of God (see Romans 6:23). If some people are predestined to believe on Christ, then eternal life is imposed on them. In other words, a gift is only a gift if it can be either accepted or refused by the recipient. If there is no gift, there is no grace. That is because grace is a gift.
Tullian Tchvidjian is a doctrinaire Calvinist, who we include under our “Wiki-Heresies” section.
You all have no idea, how excited I get when I see a comment from you! I praise God that I have found my tribe. 🙂 I started going to a church here that is part of the Acts 29 planting. I must tell you, that I had never experienced anything like it! The pastor talked about how he is a failure, how he is a sinner. He talks about our human nature, and how many christians are so self righteous! I have never heard a pastor talk about our natures in such a way as to expose his own failings. There is no condemnation in that church. He said it is for really messed up people! I also love Steve Brown.He has been accused of being Antinomian, and unsaved because he preaches radical grace. He said he knows a former member of John MacArthurs church, a man that actually worked there at one time, and this man said “the only thing John MacArthur knows about sin, is what he sees in other people.” Steve Brown and Tullian Tchvidjian, are nothing like those other people. Tullian says it is about grace, and that God pursues rebels. I know that Tullian has left the Gospel Coalition, they had a public falling out because Tullians blogs were to radical for them. He is all about jesus plus nothing equals everything. I know they believe in predestination, but the way they explain it, makes it a bit easy to overlook so you can enjoy the grace aspect. They basically believe that if you have an inkling towards God, then you are called. The reason I would like to find a different church is because this particular church is basically made up of very young members in their mid twenties, and college students. I would like to find a church with people my age, with kids.I wished there was a way to give my email so that I could learn more from you guys without clogging the board. I give my permission for any of you to have it, and contact me.
“I do not know how to love, I fear that I am a reprobate.”
Misty from what I have seen you post here you are not of reprobate mind You do have a desire to retain knowledge of God.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
I myself personally made a determination towards God that ” I shall know the Truth of THE Gospel” also I needed to Forgive myself and allow God to Love me in spite of myself. God is for me/us He is not against me/us. He only desires the very best for me/us and these are easy words to say but I know very hard to believe in over whelming circumstances be thankful for the little things .
sometimes It may be best just to give “church” a break for a time and be very careful who you listen to and Keep (guard) yourself in the Love of God.
I also recomend studying King James only for a time . I am not a KJV only person.
the word Keep is a very old English word describing the fortified area of a Castle
Keep Yourselves in The Love of God
that we might live through him.
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
the parable of the 10 virgins.
1. The parable does NOT apply to you. It is a second coming parable. how do we know.
Go back to Matt 24 – verse 31 – Immediately AFTER the tribulation……..
Matt 25 starts – verse 1 – THEN shall the kingdom of heaven
ALL of the Matt 24 and 25 parables are second coming parables.
2. IF you look at the parable you have to ask yourself……Wheres the bride?
– the born again church is the bride of Christ. She has already been taken in the “pre 70th” week rapture.
– study a how a jewish wedding works and you will see the bride is taken for a period before the feast.
3. NOTICE all 3 parables in Matt 25 have FINALITY – I know you not; thrown into outer darkness.
– AFTER the rapture, MANY people from many nations get saved (see revelations). as a result, we can see it doesn’t apply to the church.
4. ALL parables – notice the “wicked” are taken. Those that are “alive in the FLESH” at His coming will be allowed into the “earthly kingdom”—–being STILL in the flesh to repopulate the earth during Jesus’ millennial reign.
Jesus early in chapter 24 was asked what are the signs of thy coming? Remember, Jesus was NOT crucified yet and Israel had NOT yet rejected Him.
Again – these parables do not apply to the born again church (that means you 🙂
Misty, You’re very welcome! Finding a good church that teaches true sound doctrine today is hard. I live in a city that is basically a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah. There is a church in my neighborhood that has long been considered a “conservative” church, but when I visited this church for 2 Sundays, I discovered that the 2 pastors that lead the church are graduates of the Master’s Seminary which is John MacArthur’s seminary. I interviewed one of the pastors briefly after one Sunday and I could just tell that his theology was not in line with Scripture.
I got out of there as quick as possible and I have not attended any church at all since 2011, but my faith in Christ is still strong. In fact, to tell you the truth I have learned more and grown more spiritually from just visiting this website and doing my own study of the Bible and listening to online messages on YouTube by Dr. Thomas Cucuzza, Ralph Yankee Arnold, and Hank Lindstrom and it has helped me to grow and learn more than I ever did when I attended church.
When I attended church, I didn’t learn much or grow at all because everyone including myself just relied upon the pastor to spoon feed us every Sunday. Church is good IF if it teaches true doctrine from a good pastor and teachers who are solidly grounded in true doctrine. There are MANY churches today whose messages are watered down and they don’t preach what people NEED TO hear, but only what people WANT TO hear. There are many churches that preach and teach false doctrine and it has spread like an epidemic.
I don’t know if you are aware of this, but according to a Free Grace theologian that I know who has engaged in debates with other people all over the US who have been deceived by false doctrine, he estimates that about 95% of all churches, denominations, church pastors, seminaries, seminary professors, and Sunday school teachers, believe in and are deceived by the false doctrines of Calvinism/Lordship Salvation, and Arminianism. I’m not trying to discourage you from going to church, but I feel that a good church that preaches and teaches true doctrine is hard to find. I’ve encountered and debated MANY people up on YouTube who are just utterly deceived by Calvinism/Lordship Salvation/Arminianism and they just will not budge when they are presented with true Biblical doctrine.
I think at this point it is best for you to stick with sermons by Ralph Yankee Arnold, Dr. Cucuzza, and Hank Lindstrom. I’ve learned a lot from them and also from brothers and sisters from this website.
Regarding a hardened heart, when I backslided and fell away from God for 9 years, my heart had become so hardened that it resisted all human attempts from fellow believers to try to persuade me to come back. The last thing I wanted to do was come back to God and I severed all contacts with fellow believers, I cursed God, denounced my faith, and destroyed my Bible. It was impossible humanly speaking as described in Hebrews 6:4, BUT not impossible for God.
It took the chastening hand of God to punish me and to soften up my heart before I came back to Him. It was an experience that I will NEVER forget for the rest of my life – Hebrews 6:8, Hebrews 10:27, Hebrews 10:31. As I look back at that experience that was 21 years ago, it was the best thing that ever happened to me during my 9 years of apostasy. I personally communicated with 2 other Christians up on YouTube recently who were once backslidden and became apostate and they told me that they had also experienced God’s chastening which was similar to my experience.
In your case, Misty, it does not sound like you have a hardened heart like I did. Just the fact that you have come to this website and have expressed your concerns, feelings and fears and have communicated with us shows that you are receptive to God. When I fell away, I was totally UNRECEPTIVE to God. You mentioned that you were saved when you were 21 which means that you are eternally saved whether you feel like it or not. I was saved when I was 19 and despite the fact that I fell away and became apostate did not jeopardize my eternal salvation – John 10:28-29, Romans 8:38-39, 2 Timothy 2:13. What is jeopardized is any eternal REWARDS that I may have earned – 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, 2 Corinthians 5:10. Once a person is eternally saved, that person cannot lose their salvation even if they wanted to. Salvation is not fragile glass that shatters when stained with sin or failure, but eternal salvation is shatterproof glass that is impossible to shatter.
Misty, we ARE NOT saved by “unfailing faith” on our part in commitment, obedience, and perseverance, which is susceptible to faltering and failure because we are still human and still sin, but we are kept eternally secure because we have BELIEVED in an UNFAILING SAVIOR – John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:28-29, Romans 8:38-39.
Hope this helps! Please feel free to ask us any questions. We’re here for you and we care about you! God bless you, Misty!
Misty, I just sent an e-mail to someone who lives in Chattanooga to see if I can get a church recommendation. I will follow up with you if I do.
I think the central point of the parable of the virgins is that everyone should be prepared for Christ’s appearing. Those who know Christ as Savior will go to be with Him when He comes. Those who don’t will not.
I also wanted you guys to know that God led me here to this website a couple of years ago, when things were going “dark.” I always came here to find hope when I felt there was none. Thank you all so very much!
Holly, thank you! That is what I wonder about myself.Is my heart hardened?? If it is I can not change it, only God can do that. That is one of my greatest fears. I would also like to say thank you to William for sharing part of your testimony with me.I felt very encouraged and hopeful! I am confused about several passages of scripture, and wondered if anyone could explain the parable of the virgins? Also, does anyone know of a good church in or near Chattanooga?
I prayed for you this morning Misty. We are saved by believing there is nothing we can do, He is the Savior alone, and what He did for us in our place is the price that has to be paid. It is His righteousness imputed to us when we believe.
Just keep reading His Word, remembering it will work in you effectively (1 Thess 2:13) We need to fellowship with others. We need His Word, we need time with Him. We need to remember in our fellowship with Him, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We are already forgiven in eternity, but temporally He has made this way for us, and I believe for our hearts to not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Also so we are able to fellowship with other believers.
I know for a fact, both Comfort and Piper caused fear in my life too. I didn’t really listen to Piper, but the enemy has a way of getting digs in, since he is the accuser of the brethren. Build up your shield of faith, keep hearing the Word! May the Lord direct your steps as you pray for each thing, acknowledging Him in all your ways.
you are going to be just fine; I KNOW it!!!! watch those yankee Arnold videos (there are many on you tube); and ask this group ANY question on ANY passage.
Again, what you are going through….I lived it. It got so bad, I remember praying to God, “whats the point of being Christian when I cant live it” I ended my prayer with “where’s the REST you promised”.
– the next day, I could NOT YET explain those passages that seemed to contradict each other BUT inside, I was completely calm.
– Matt 11:28 – Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest — TODAY, still one of my favorite passages of scripture because of its application to my walk with God.
As for Hebrews, the bible CANNOT contradict itself. Hebrews 10:14 reads “For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOREVER them that are SANCTIFIED”
– the book cant say that one is PERFECTED FOREVER in one place then say something else in another.
How does one get sanctified? JESUS said in Acts 26:18 – To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are SANCTIFIED BY FAITH that is in me
if you have believed the gospel that Jesus died for your sins and rose again from the dead (alone) – YOU ARE sanctified and thus—- PERFECTED FOREVER!!!!
– kind of amazing; isn’t it??????
Misty, Thanks for sharing! You were saved at 21! Praise God! I will continue to pray for you that you will grow strong in the faith. I also highly recommend that you read Dr. Thomas Cucuzza’s newest article on the true definition of Biblical repentance which you can download. There is a link to it at this website. The article is entitled, “Repentance” – It’s Meaning and Application. If you scroll all the way up to the top left, you’ll see it. God bless you!
Misty, I have prayed for you again tonight.
Following is a good passage about the Word of God:
2 Timothy 3:16-17:
 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Misty, one of the problems with the false teachers that you went to (John Piper and Ray Comfort) is that they take our focus away from Christ’s righteousness, and turn our focus toward ourselves. There is nothing in the Word of God that should cause a Christian to think they are beyond saving. The Word of God repeatedly affirms to Christians that they are already saved.
Consider the case of the carnal church at Corinth. Paul wrote them to rebuke their carnality, yet he affirmed their salvation.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52:
 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Misty, God loves the most vile criminal infinitely more than I love my own children. God could not possibly love you any more than He does. We all have sin in our lives, but if we have trusted Christ as Savior, God does not see our sins – He sees Christ’s righteousness.
I will keep praying the God continues to reveal His truth to you through the Word. Watch anything you can from Yankee Arnold. He preaches grace free and clear. Lots of more good articles on here as well.
You guys have no idea how you have cheered my weary mind, and heart. I used to be a “baseball” mom, attending games with my husband and young son. Now my life is consumed with fear and terror. I am a shell of my former self. I am 42 years old. I got saved at home in the middle of the night after a bad dream, I was 21 years old. I went to church for about 3 months, and because I was under so much legalism, I gave up. I started living in the world..social drinking etc.. I went through a divorce, and have been remarried for 15 years. I have been off and on with God, because I have never felt that he could love someone like me. These thoughts and feelings stem from years of childhood trauma, and abuse. I have not and do not live like the world. As in, my sins are more about my attitude, and things in my heart. I do not drink, I do not do drugs, adultery etc…I am a stay at home mom. About two years ago I decided to get serious with God. I was reading the word..I was praying.I asked God to reveal my ugly heart to me, because I felt that I couldn’t see the depth of my sin. Oh did he ever show me! I started seeing things that I wanted to run from. It was like the closer I got to him, the more I was seeing about myself that was not good at all. So I became disheartened, and thought I am beyond saving. That’s when I googled about backslide christians, and saw what John Piper, and Ray Comfort said about the Hebrews passages. I became terrified to open the bible, it was condemning me every time I opened it. I need rest for my mind, and soul. My family is worried about me, because I am consumed with this fear. I am going to watch the videos by Ralph Yankee, and read whatever you guys tell me to read! Please just stay with me, and pray!
If you are not sure you are saved:
Acts 16:30-31 – 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”31 They replied, “BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus, AND YOU WILL BE SAVED—you and your household.”
It really is that simple. God made salvation plain and simple that a child could BELIEVE and be SAVED. God made salvation plain and simple, but it is man under the influence of Satan that has made the gospel complicated, hard, and confusing.
For Misty or any others struggling with self inspection, please refocus your thoughts squarely on Christ. He is our hope, life, and peace. When we trust Him as Savior God no longer holds any sin past, present, or future against. There is no way to gain salvation by our performance and no way to lose it by our performance.
I say amen to the other comments. Yes, stay away from these men who will put you back under the law. They preach an accursed gospel. Paul said he did not give these false brethren place for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel might remain. Many people are going to face the Lord in tears for their compromise and what it may have cost others in letting these wolves into the sheep pen….
I suggest also Wiki-index above for those to avoid.
Misty, Please feel free to ask more questions if you are having anxiety over the Hebrews passages. As mentioned earlier, I was a former living example of those passages. I also have in my possession some of the best expositional articles on the warning passages in Hebrews and a copy of a doctoral dissertation on the warning passages in Hebrews. All the literature that I have are written from a Free Grace perspective and is free from the false gospel contaminants of Calvinism/Lordship Salvation, Arminianism, and Roman Catholicism.
Misty, I read your comment, “Is there hope for a backslider? I am terrified. Hebrews doesnt give much hope. And neither does Ray Comfort, or John Piper. Please help me..I am not doing well.”
You’re not the only one. I once backslided for 9 long years living in apostasy, sin, and rebellion against God and even cursed God and destroyed my Bible and I was a former living example of Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-27. I thought I had fallen to the point of no return and had lost my salvation, but God in His mercy chastened me severely and here I am today. That was 21 years ago.
I have a strong feeling that you read the passages in Hebrews 6 and 10 and is causing you much anxiety regarding your salvation. Contrary to what Ray Comfort or John Piper may teach, the passages in Hebrews DO NOT threaten believers who backslide or who commit apostasy that they will lose their salvation which is impossible. The passages instead teach that Christians who take that path and persist will inevitably face God’s chastisement on the individual as a wake up call, but their salvation remains intact.
God chastens, but He also restores. God is strong on discipline and He is strong on love. God chastised me when I backslided and became apostate for 9 long years, but He has also been very gracious to me all these years.
Job 5:17-18 – “Blessed is the one whom God corrects;
so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty.
18 For he wounds, but he also binds up;
he injures, but his hands also heal.
Misty, salvation is a free gift granted at the moment of BELIEF/FAITH in Jesus finished work on the cross with His shed blood, death, and resurrection and the person is eternally saved instantly – Acts 16:30-31, John 5:24, John 6:47, Luke 23:42-43. It is an eternal work of God which cannot be reversed no matter what happens in the future, no matter what the believer does or does not do – John 10:28-29, Romans 8:38-39, 2 Timothy 2:13.
I strongly advise that you stay far away from the teachings of Ray Comfort, John Piper, John MacArthur, RC Sproul, and Paul Washer. These men are all false teachers teaching the false gospel of Calvinism/Lordship Salvation and they falsely teach that salvation depends on the works of the believer and that salvation can be lost. Hope this helps! God Bless you!
BTW – Hebrews is a warning to believers mostly about their lack of understanding of Christ’s preeminence, nor the end of the law, or the change of priesthood. Christ is both priest and King of the New Covenant (Melchizedek). These believers weren’t maturing spiritually and under persecution were considering going back into the sacrificial system (the temple had not yet been destroyed) and Paul was warning them about this. There is more on that too, but I suggest you go through the book of John, and take your time. Look for what we must do to be saved. Look for all instances of the word believe. Look up John 20:31 before you start to see the purpose statement of John. You need His Word. His Word is a sharp two edged sword. It builds up our shield of faith by the hearing of it. It reminds us of who our righteousness is, and who placed that helmet of salvation on us. It surrounds us, encompasses us, girds us with truth. His Word is truth. We need to shod our feet daily with the preparation of the gospel of peace. Keep reading the gospel every day, refresh yourself. Put on your armor with the Word and in prayer.
Dear Misty, I have prayed for you too. You are not alone. You were given some very good passages and some good places to start. Don’t try to be good like the people you see in church. I know that one well, and don’t try to belong or fit in. What you are is unique, and the Lord wants you to build your own walls.
I have not read through, I saw your post first this morning and then skimmed the rest, so first I’d like to ask you what your understanding of what you must do to be saved. The best thing that can ever happen to us is for us to realize we can never do anything to save ourselves, we can never be good enough. If you have believed that you have to ‘repent from sin’ or ‘turn from sin’ in your understanding of the gospel, then you will have fear the rest of your life. Ray Comfort has his own anxiety attacks. Francis Chan had his own break down. John Piper doesn’t know if he is saved to this day. Why? Because they are trusting on a system of doctrine instead of what the Word of God says.
Please do trust the Lord, acknowledge Him in all your ways, most especially everything you study. Do not take teaching from anyone without testing the spirits first. But let me say, pray for each thing if you remember, do not beat yourself up. Ask the Lord to help you and when you fail, if you remember, or realize, confess it, and thank Him for being so faithful to forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. We’re clean in God’s sight when we believe, perfected forever (Heb 10:10,14), but our flesh, well, evil is still present with us (Romans 7). We need the sanctifying work of the Word and the Holy Spirit. It’s a lot to explain in one sitting, but let me say, your part is to cooperate with the Lord by talking to Him, by asking Him for help and let the outcome be His. Trust Him. Spend time in His Word. Meditate on it. Talk to Him as you read. Pray first always. Ask Him questions. Study with only His approval in mind. Thank Him that He says He will guide you into all truth, so ask Him to help you be open to His guidance.
Proverbs 3:5-6 and Luke 10:38-42 will help you. Abide in the Lord and in His Word. HE will do the work. Do your part, cooperate, and if you have any doubts at all that you are not saved, then lets talk. Stay with us, and you can also find me on Facebook under Holly Sprenger Garcia if you need a friend.
In His love, remember, we are powerless to fix it. The Lord will help bind those wounds through the patience and comfort of His Scriptures, you will have hope (Rom 15:4 I believe.)
Like someone said above, the Lord does not give that spirit of fear, so ask the Lord to rebuke the enemy, and remember how Jesus answered the enemy in Matt 4, “It is written”. So look up Scriptures that deal with just one of your issues, whether fear, hurt, sorrow, and then write them down in a notebook. The reason to write things down is that we have much greater retention when we do. If you are unable, then copy and paste, and do a study on it. Commit some to memory (Ps 119:11). Ask Him to help on everything remembering it is the Lord who works in us. We’re praying with and for you. He loves you.
Misty, God loves you so much. He demonstrated his love for us by sending Jesus to save us. Jesus died for you and me before we ever committed our first sin. Jesus paid the full price for our sin, leaving us nothing to pay. We need only believe that Jesus has done this for us and we receive forgiveness of all of our sins (past, present, and future) and we are guaranteed eternal life in heaven.
Our behavior, whether good or bad, is not relevant in whether we receive eternal life. Salvation is a free gift, available by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Do not be troubled by anything you heard from Piper or Comfort. Both are false teachers.
God wants everyone to be saved. He wants everyone who is saved to be assured of their salvation. Assurance of salvation can only come from knowing that one has trusted in Christ alone for salvation. Anyone who teaches that assurance of salvation can from our behaviors, attitude, or anything else is a false teacher.
Misty, I have prayed for you just now. Please read the booklets to which I referred earlier.
I guess I will keep going. Washers perverted gospel explained. I emailed this a few weeks ago to a “Washer follower”. its a bit lengthy.
Let me start with how “repent of sins” FOR salvation is “another/perverted” gospel. I could write a 50 page paper about it. However, I might lose your focus. So i will only use Galations in THIS email (might use another verse in the bible to support).
– It should be noted that i use the KJV 1611 (currently, I am not KJV-only BUT am KJV-preferred for several reasons)
FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT….
we need to DEFINE sin. The definition of sin is in 1 John. 1 john 3:4 reads “4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
We see from this passage that sin IS “transgression of the LAW”. NOW, if a person (Washer) says that one MUST “turn from their sins” FOR salvation THEN they are saying the SAME THING as one MUST keep the LAW or “keep the LAW better”.
– WHY? because sin is transgression of the LAW.
– turn from sin = keep the law (or keep the law better).
IF YOU DID NOT GRASP THIS; PLEASE RE-READ IT AGAIN (and again, and again)
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto ANOTHER GOSPEL:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would PERVERT THE GOSPEL of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
ME – we see that someone had come into Galatia and preached “another/perverted gospel” So what was being preached to them. AFTER Paul goes through his conversion and his dispute with Peter, he gets into the problem.
Gal 2:16 – 16 Knowing that a man is NOT justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and NOT by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
Gal 2:21 – I do not FRUSTRATE the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain
ME- frustrate does not mean to irritate in this passage; it means “to make void; to nullify”. the LAW nullifies GRACE. Lets keep going in Galations.
Gal 3:1-3 – O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
ME – Paul is asking them “Did your salvation (sealed by the Holy Spirit) come by the LAW of the hearing of faith? (the answer should be obvious). Someone has bewitched them telling them that the law needed to be kept. He called them “foolish” for thinking they are made perfect by the flesh. phil 3:3 – For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the SPIRIT, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have NO CONFIDENCE in the FLESH.
Gal 3:6-7 – 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.7 Know ye therefore that they which are of FAITH, the same are the children of Abraham
Gal 3:10 – For as many as are of the works of the law ARE UNDER THE CURSE: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.11 But that NO MAN is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith
Gal 3:13 – Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might RECEIVE THE PROMISE of the Spirit through FAITH.
Gal 3:17 – And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of NONE EFFECT
– the LAW makes faith VOID and of “none effect” Romans 4:13-1413 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.14 For IF they which are of the LAW be heirs, faith IS MADE VOID, and the promise made of NONE EFFECT
Gal 3:18 – For if the inheritance be of the law, it is NO MORE of promise: but God gave it to Abraham BY PROMISE
ME – salvation is about Gods PROMISE to us and NOT how well someone keeps the LAW. This PROMISES comes by faith ONLY. The LAW makes VOID the promise. Lets keep reading….
Gal 3:21 – 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the PROMISE BY FAITH of Jesus Christ might be given to them that BELIEVE.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the LAW was our SCHOOLMASTER to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we ARE NO LONGER under a schoolmaster (LAW).
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 4:21 -Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:31 – So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the FREE
ME – as you can clearly see, a born again believer IS no longer under the schoolmaster (the LAW) but under GRACE. A believer is of the FREE woman.
SUMMARY – Sin is defined as transgression of the LAW. When Mr. washer states that one MUST repent of their sins FOR salvation, he is putting that person “under the law” (schoolmaster). WHY? “turn from sin” = keep the law because sin is transgression of the LAW. Salvation is by PROMISE through the gospel of Jesus ALONE. The LAW makes faith VOID and the PROMISE of none effect.
Mr. Washer is preaching what Galations calls “another/perverted gospel” (1:6-8). He is NOT alone. So does J. Mac, Ray Comfort, Billy Graham; etc. There is NOT ONE major evangelical today that does NOT preach a perverted gospel. This MIGHT be the great apostasy in Thes.
If you keep reading in Galations 5:1; you will read what Paul would have said about Mr. Washer.
– Gal 5 -Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the WHOLE LAW.4 Christ is become of NO EFFECT unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
VERSE 12 – I would they (Mr Washer) were even CUT OFF which trouble you
years ago I felt the same way. why? because I could not explain those “tough to understand scriptures”. I had a case of the “what ifs” so bad, I was considering “cutting of a hand or plucking out an eye” (surgically of course).
Stay away from them!!!!
Good news – you said God has shown you that your heart is wicked. That is awesome!!!! God is right!!! guess what—I am wicked too!!!
Gods love for you – it is found in the gospel. Do you want to know how much God loves you???!!! He loved you soooooo much, that He would rather come to earth, get beaten, spit on, ridiculed suffer and die on a cross BECAUSE He did NOT want to spend eternity WITHOUT YOU!!!!. That is how much He loves you.
So what is the gospel. what is salvation.
Romans 1:16 – For I am not ashamed of the GOSPEL of Christ: for it is the power of God unto SALVATION to every one that believeth
ME – so one must ask, “what is THIS gospel that is the POWER OF GOD unto salvation?”. the GOSPEL is declared in 1 cor 15:1-4.
1 Cor 15:1-4 – Moreover, brethren, I DECLARE unto you the GOSPEL which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ DIED FOR OUR SIN according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
ME – this is it!!!! this is the gospel!!! This is the WHOLE gospel. unfortunately, most professing Christians ADD to it. ANYWAY what happens to a person when they BELIEVE this GOSPEL that Jesus DIED FOR OUR SINS and rose again? The answer is in Eph 1:13.
Eph 1:13 – In whom ye also TRUSTED, after that ye heard the word of truth, the GOSPEL of your salvation: in whom also after that ye BELIEVED, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise,
ME – we clearly see that the believer is SEALED by the Holy Spirit the MOMENT one believes in this gospel (that Jesus DIED FOR OUR SINS). “BELIEVE” means—-to put TOTAL confidence in; to trust; to rely upon.
MISTY- I am convinced the Lord lead you here!!!!! I can, as well as many others here, show you how, according to the bible, Washer preaches a perverted gospel; another gospel that frustrates grace.
This is the gospel. put your total confidence in the gospel – that Jesus died for your sins and rose again from the dead and you will be SEALED. YES – He loved YOU that much!!!!
I am barely able to type this..I am trembling so bad. I have been in fear and torment for two years with this belief. I come from a non christian home, and a long history of abuse. I have never known love, I want to be good. I want God to love me. I have tried off and on through the years to be a good person. But God has shown me that my heart is desperately wicked. I do not like what is in my heart, but I can not change it. Fears of abandonment, jealousies..I hate that this is in my heart. I never before saw how bad I am, and I am thankful that God has shown me, but I am powerless to fix it.I have never been steady in church, but have always had a sense of wanting to be lived and “good,” like the people I saw in church. I never felt like I belonged.I do not know how to love, I fear that I am a reprobate. I have become neurotic due to the great fear I have been under for the last two years. I listened to a sermon by Ray Comfort, and John Piper on Hebrews and it has nearly destroyed my mental health. I am so desperate to do right by God, but it seems that I will never be what he wants me to be. Pray for me.pray for me because I feel so alone, and in terror!
Misty, in addition to the resources suggested already, you might also be interested in the following booklets under “Dr. Cucuzza’s Stack” on our website:
1. How to be Sure You are Going to Heaven
2. The Permanence of Salvation
We are very glad that you are here!
Please consider the verses I share here:
I also recommend Dr Ralph “Yankee” Arnold and his sermon on the only evidence needed to prove that you are saved. Tom Cucuzza’s book Secure Forever is also a must read. Please continue to ask us any questions.
a good sermon on this is on youtube “Ralph yankee arnold can a Christian backslide”
I recommend him over any “MAJOR” evangelical as most, if not all of them, preach “another gospel”.
Once a person is saved, they are ALWAYS saved no matter what. John/Jack, FEEL FREE to give her my email. I give it out all the time on line to anyone (I know this site doesnt like to give out email addresses publicly) WHY?
1. because sometimes answers can get long and this blog wants comments to be kept short.
2. She might never come back to the blog.
forget backsliding for a second……even if on has their faith overthrown, they are still going to heaven!!!! (this is what Hebrews 6:4-6 is REALLY saying).
I use the KJV1611 only.
First, we need some verses that say the believer is SEALED.
1. Eph 1:13 – In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise
2. Eph 4:20 – 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are SEALED unto the day of redemption
3. 2 Cor 1:21-22 – Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;22 Who hath also SEALED us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Timothy is a book written from Paul to timothy. So the “WE” in this passage is referring to BELIEVERS.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (REWARDS)
13 If WE believe NOT, yet he abideth FAITHFUL: he cannot deny himself
ME – Jesus cant promise to lose nothing and have nothing plucked from His or the FATHERS hand and THEN actually lose one – that would be denying himself.
Lets keep reading and we will see people had their faith overthrown.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and OVERTHROW THE FAITH OF SOME
ME – we clearly see that some had their faith overthrown. The KEY is the next word. The word is nevertheless. It means in spite of…..so….
NEVERTHELESS (or in spite of) the foundation of God standeth sure, having THIS SEAL, The Lord knoweth them that are his.
ME – regardless of one’s faith being overthrown, we see that they were still SEALED.
– the rest of verse 19 is about building on the foundation – some to honour (christians) and some to dishonour (extremely carnal christians who have produced nothing)
one small “blurb” about Hebrews 6 as there a rules for lengthy comments.
Hebrews 6:6 – If they shall fall away, to renew them AGAIN unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
– We SEE in 2 Timothy that some fell away and are still sealed.
– the key word in this verse is AGAIN. They cant be renewed AGAIN because they are STILL RENEWED (sealed). even if they have their faith overthrown OR “fall away from the faith” (same thing)
– WHY? because that would put Jesus to an open shame —-saying His sacrifice was NOT good enough the first time puts him to shame. He would then have to be crucified again.
make sense? Hebrews 6:4-6 is ACTUALLY an eternal security passage.
John is right – RUN from those people as they preach another gospel.
Misty said : “Is there hope for a backslider? I am terrified.”
The spirit of fear is not of God Misty.
the fact you are here reading this blog is hope of discovering the clear simple Gospel of the Blessed Hope of Christ Jesus. Cry out to Jesus
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Misty, of course there is hope for a backslidden Christian. First, the hope (certainty) of eternal life. Second, God desires close fellowship with us (see Revelation 3:20).
You might be interested in reading some discussion of difficult passages in Hebrews here under “Difficult Passages”.
I wouldn’t pay any attention to Piper or Ray Comfort.
Is there hope for a backslider? I am terrified. Hebrews doesnt give much hope. And neither does Ray Comfort, or John Piper. Please help me..I am not doing well..
Thank you Curtis,
The wise in heart shall be called prudent:
and the sweetness of the lips increaseth learning.
Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it:
but the instruction of fools is folly.
The heart of the wise teacheth his mouth,
and addeth learning to his lips.
Pleasant words are as an honeycomb,
sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
keep in mind when studying the word and let the word study you , Justification has everything to do with Sanctification BUT Sanctification has nothing to do with Justification they must remain separate.
Salvation and service
why do good works ? and do what is right ? that it may be well with you
I am so happy God loves me still in spite of myself .
When the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob looks upon a soul who has placed their faith in the finished work of Christ Jesus for Justification alone He see’s them as though they have never sinned.
Deu 5:33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.
1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
We need to realize that doing good works is something we are encouraged to do in His Word. As believers we should be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). There are many reasons, but it is beneficial to all men, as well as not besmirching the name of the One who bought and paid for us. But works done in the flesh and not in Him, are ones I believe will be burnt up, because it has not been done in faith in Him, but in faith in living legally. It happened to those at Galatia we see.
We cannot be fooled by the Lordship/Perseverance of the Saints teachers who tell us good works prove salvation. That is just as much law keeping as the Hebrew Roots groups. On that vein, I recommend readers look into two sources.
One is by Thomas Cucuzza, and is a book (or kindle) on Perseverance of the Saints. “Secure Forever! God’s Promise or Our Perseverance?” You can find it on Amazon. Not sure if he carries it on northlandchurch.com
The other is by Jim Floyd at Stand for the Faith blog regarding this very issue. Bible Basics: Do Good Works Prove Salvation?
That’s where understanding the difference between being saved (given the free gift of eternal life) and becoming a disciple/student is really terribly helpful. Many churches who claim to be ‘making disciples’ are really teaching people to ‘finish in the flesh’ unfortunately.
I can’t agree with you more John and pray that more will learn to spend time with Him, take heed to His Word, hide it in their hearts, study with His approval in mind…. abide in His Word… such a difference, it was slow still for me, however, I believe there were things I had to ‘unlearn’ and be re-taught.
In order to be saved, one does not need to think that Jesus will make him better. He needs to believe that Jesus gives him His imputed perfection. The deliverance from the power of sin our day-to-day lives requires our cooperation, which faith in Christ for eternal life does not guarantee.
Thank you, yes, we have all been there in varying degrees and ways, and praise Him for that too, those things that led us to draw nearer to Him. I love the comparison between Matt 11:28-30 and Acts 15:10, so true….even the hyper dispensationalists, the ones who believe that the Jews were under the law as well as grace, they have missed this, and forget the purification that comes by faith alone…
I found a three-parter by Dr. (Yankee) Arnold and also this one that was by itself, so I’ll share the link, thanks, listening now.
Another passage comes to mind about ‘regulatory principles’, in that if it is in the Word, certainly it seems that is how we would set our standards. Trouble is many reformed churches have worship according to traditions or thinking of men beyond what is written, and worse they try to bring people back under the law. I believe we have to keep remembering the purpose of the law, and look to the New and see what He is asking of us there. This passage somewhat speaks to both the fast and loose people like the Bethel church types, a law unto themselves, fleshly worship, and also to those who might take it too far into the legalism department, subjecting themselves to regulations/ordinances, judging others by their own conscience, (which I have been guilty of). I am thankful though as I am reminded to dig for the answers in His Word, rightly divided, rightly applied, and in context.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
I struggled with that too. Funny though, with sin and law, it’s like trying to untangle ourselves from a fish net, the more we struggle in our own power, the worse we become entangled it seems.
I would agree with John. How can someone who is without strength be willing to stop sinning in the future? They are unrighteous sinners He died for. Can the ungodly do something godly? I think even if they were willing, it is still a promise or an exchange for a free gift. And as we know, sin is a snare, and living by the law a trap that causes us to sin even more.
So, the only thing we have to be willing to do, is rely upon/believe on Jesus Christ and His work to deliver us from the power of sin, to save us from the sting of death. He has the victory, we can’t contribute performance or promises of it. He makes us new. His Word washes us. His Spirit empowers us.
I think people try so hard on their own and I am sure because many want to please Him. He has shown me through His Word and through some hard lessons, that the very things I thought would be a ‘snap’ to get rid of in my life, seemed to be those that lingered around the longest. Perhaps it was because I thought I could do it myself and I’d just leave the harder stuff to Him 🙂 .
And I believe His Word shows us we lean on, trust in Him for all things, and so we have to allow Him like Peter to wash our feet. I think I was Peter too, “No Lord, you shall never wash my feet”…. Probably why I was out of fellowship (no part with Him) for so long. I was trying to do it myself. Our part, the good part, the one thing that is needed, is to spend time with the Lord in His Word, which will not be taken from us….
Dan, Thank you for all the information, you have given me some insight. I really did not have much of an idea, so that is helpful to know. I assume when I was younger at the Presbyterian church that we were reading through one of them. I know they have some Psalms in them, I too looked it up briefly online, they also have some devotions of some sort?
You know, I was so happy to learn that worship was just not singing, this I totally understand now, and I am so thankful to Him (since I do not have much of a voice) :).
I was able to discover worship through reading and wanting to understand His Word, and talk to Him in it. I was so afraid that I was not able to worship Him, or that I didn’t know how, but I also really had a problem with just hearing the ‘words’ people said, such as what seemed like a rote repetitive phrase, “praise the Lord” and not quite feeling that was worship. Or repeating something that wasn’t coming from my heart. It wasn’t working, or at least it wasn’t working for me.
I was worried for myself truthfully, wondering, “are you worshipping Him?” As I was comforted by the Scriptures I began to have hope:) I started to have such a heart of thankfulness, and was just able to simply tell Him “thank you. He helped me learn and do things in a spirit of worship (like the Bible verse pictures I’ve made over the years). I’m not very talented, however, the meaning to me in the making of each one, was that God allowed me this form of worship that I am so grateful for, God is so good, it is to be for Him, but it also affects us in such a meaningful way.
Just in every day life, as I observe the flowers bobbing slightly up and down in the breeze, the tree’s leaves, twisting and turning, glistening in the warmth of the day; I imagine their quiet worship. I watch the buzzing hummingbird zoom through my patio, chastising as he/she passes for its lack of sustenance in the feeder, and I have tears of thanks to Him for the beauty of His creation.
The Holy Spirit seems to bring to remembrance the verses that speak of the mountains and the hills leading the singing, the trees dancing, the rivers or floods clapping as the seas roar. It’s as if right now I can hear (in my imagination), creation groaning for that day, as I also long for it. And to tell Him I love Him, is part of my praise and worship; to be fortunate enough to be blessed to show that love, by feeding His sheep, or washing the feet of the saints, or whatever the Lord brings my way to allow for me to do. One thing I know now, I just want to always be thankful and worship Him each day, each moment, acknowledging Him in all my ways (this is my desire, unfortunately not always accomplished…). I don’t know what worship should be other than pleasing to Him and from the heart, and with good doctrine, only in truth. His Word is truth I am reminded. We are selfish creatures and want worship for ourselves, but as we grow in His Grace, to the head which is Christ, we learn along the way as He leads us in His truth. I will hopefully continue to prove all things by His Word. I’m learning with you brother….
Thanks for allowing the book response In Christ, Holly
I am so blessed to see your response. Thank you, and please go through the verses, and really I believe the Lord will bring far more passages to mind, this article could have been a book. I wrote this in response actually to several people, but one I was literally shocked to see go from a pastor’s wife in a large well-known church associated with Chuck Missler, go straight into full-blown law-keeping. The attempt to keep the law will ruin us every time. There is no hope for ‘finishing in the flesh’, I’ve learned this too many times in my life unfortunately. I must finish in the Spirit, so best to attempt all through Him and by His power and might. Spending time with Him and in hearing His Word has been the best thing I’ve learned in this life after being saved. So thankful.
As I see people attempt to live by the law, any aspect of it (the law is a unit), they don’t realize they are trampling the Son of God underfoot, counting the blood of the Covenant by which we were sanctified forever, and uncommon thing. They insult the Spirit of Grace. I wrote this other article, not sure if it was before or after, but Calvinists, Arminians, Hebrew Roots, religious people…. they are all doing the same thing. I’ve done it…
Praise God for His deliverance. In Christ.
By the way, here is the link to the other if you would like some more passages.
Sorry, I should have added…..
I believe ralph yankee Arnold has a good sermon on this subject on youtube.
“ralph yankee Arnold salvation vs service”
another way to put it (or add). Jesus doesn’t expect or demand anything for salvation—that’s free.
HOWEVER, it is the will of God (not demanded) that all of Gods adopted children conform to the image of His Son. So the child of God now has a choice to make….Do I want to serve God BECAUSE of the FREE GIFT of salvation or not? There are GREAT benefits for serving the Lord as well as consequences for not serving the Lord.
I think to sum this up in a verse lets go to the letter written to the carnal church at Corinth. 1 Corinthians 6:20 – For ye ARE BOUGHT with a price: THEREFORE glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s
– They were already bought (saved)
– therefore (as a result of being bought) Pauls writes what they “ought” to do.
no demand BUT a choice.
Jan, we don’t have to be willing to turn from sim after becoming saved in order to become saved. Otherwise, salvation would be a trade for our willingness to turn from sin, rather than being by grace through faith in Christ.
What I’ve been struggling with is whether God demands us to be ready/willing to stop sinning in the future after we are saved, as in being part of repentance.
I’m quite surethat isn’t the case and I haven’t read that in my Dutch Statenvertaling or that that isn’t in any other reformation bible, including the KJV.
I’m sure any willingness or promise of law keeping by the old man before being born again is nonsensical and not part of any repentance, because only the new man, the new creature in Jesus Christ is righteous and able to please the Father.
The article by the way is excellent, Holly.
Thank you for writing it.
comments like yours are so motivating for me. We have pretty much ALL been there.
matt 11:28-30 – Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will GIVE YOU REST.
29 Take MY YOKE upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find REST unto your SOULS.
30 For MY YOKE is EASY, and my burden is LIGHT.
COMPARE Jesus’ yoke to the yoke that “tempts God to put a yoke around the disciples necks….” (the law) – Acts 15:10
I just want you guys to know that I have tears in my eyes as this post is an answer to a very specific prayer asking for help regarding understanding “the Law”.
I will be printing off the content for study with my friends.
The wickedness that is works salvation has taken too many years off my life which is In Christ.
God is so good.
I agree, getting the gospel right is most important, both in the Word preached, and in the Word “sung.” Both should have good theology.
I often find much modern music lacking in theological depth. Horatius Bonar (although he was a Calvinist) wrote some good hymns. Listen to this one (you can listen on Cyber hymnal) :
Not what my hands have done can save my guilty soul;
Not what my toiling flesh has borne can make my spirit whole.
Not what I feel or do can give me peace with God;
Not all my prayers and sighs and tears can bear my awful load.
Thy work alone, O Christ, can ease this weight of sin;
Thy blood alone, O Lamb of God, can give me peace within.
Thy love to me, O God, not mine, O Lord, to Thee,
Can rid me of this dark unrest, And set my spirit free.
I bless the Christ of God; I rest on love divine;
And with unfaltering lip and heart I call this Savior mine.
His cross dispels each doubt; I bury in His tomb
Each thought of unbelief and fear, each lingering shade of gloom.
Gospel assurance! Theologically sound, with depth, and should be the cry of our hearts.
For me I would be happy to go to a free grace church even if I had to put up with some music I didn’t really like. For me that is better than putting up with a false gospel. But I haven’t found even a free grace church around here[/quote]
Very true. The gospel is non-negotiable. Sorry you are not able to find a good church in your area. I was surprised myself to find how much Calvinistic influence there is in fundamentalist churches in my area as well. Very sad.
Kimberrly and Holly,
The “Trinity Psalter” is popular, as well as the “Scottish Metrical Psalter.” The OPC and PCA incorporates many Psalter selections from various psalters (including the Scottish Metrical Psalter and the 1912 Psalter) in their hymnal (Trinity Hymnal).
A Psalter is a translation (or paraphrase) into meter (often common meter, long meter or short meter). For example the 23rd psalm from the Scottish Metrical Psalter (first 2 verses) reads:
1. The Lord’s my Shepherd, I’ll not want;
He makes me down to lie
In pastures green; He leadeth me
The quiet waters by.
2. My soul He doth restore again,
And me to walk doth make
Within the paths of righteousness,
E’en for His own Name’s sake.
Sorry I haven’t responded earlier…busy,busy…..
First, when I said “worship,” I didn’t mean music (though singing is an element of worship), I meant the entirety from the call to worship to the close thereof (singing, prayer, the Word read and preached, the Lord’ table, etc…).
Do churches have a right to apply standards? As long as it’s Biblically correct, they sure should. We know that we live now under the law of Christ, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Gal 6, Rom 8). We are to let the Word dwell richly in our heart, speaking with Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs in our hearts TO the Lord.
When it comes to applying Biblically based standards, the question might be should worship (all elements thereof) be limited to those elements presented in scripture (such as prayer, the word preached, singing psalms and hymns, the Lord’s table), or can a church add to the elements (such as lighting candles, interrupting worship with announcements, etc…). The idea of strictly limiting the elements to those revealed in scripture is the position of the “regulative principle.” The other end of the spectrum seems to be “anything goes as long as it is not prohibited in scripture.”
You also said: “Does it possibly offend others?”
I think this is key as well. If we add elements to worship that are not Biblically grounded, then we might be binding the consciences of those who would not be comfortable participating in an extra-Biblical practice (such as lighting candles).
Curtis, you sure expressed some of the things I’ve thought about, dealt with, and lightened up on in some ways because of (as you said) the weaker brother (with you on the not sure if it’s me or not).
I’ve always had a tendency with music, to hear some words the wrong way 🙂 Kind of like kids. So with some of the CCM, I have ‘re-written’ what it actually said, and later spotted the error. My intent was to worship Him I believe, and so He started to show me as I might have more ‘quiet’ time without distractions and I really ‘heard’ some of the things being said instead of hearing the beautiful music. Michael W. Smith came out with a song that spoke of His holy presence living in him, which isn’t wrong, and I could relate to the ‘wanting more of Him’, and that’s where people get sucked it. How can you be desperate without Him, lost without Him, if He’s living in you?
This music many time appeals to the hurting/grieving as they might wrongly apply their own feelings to what a lyric is actually saying.
And so I see all sorts of wrong theology throughout music, I’ve been asked before if I could ‘recommend’ someone and I guess mostly I can’t think of one person I could recommend, it seems like even the ones I thought were mostly sound will compromise to sell their music. It’s almost as if you wrote where I am at, after getting back on the clear simple Gospel, I put always most of the music too. If I listen, for me personally, I look up lyrics now. Not to be legalistic, but because I don’t always ‘catch’ all that is being sung, so trying to be more diligent, and continuing to try to prove all things, and hold fast to that which is good. I’ve come to the conclusion, if I’m singing as unto Him, I had better not be singing mindlessly, or by rote, (as obviously I did before)…. I’m learning all the time. He is patient fortunately.
God bless you all today, Jack and John, may the Lord bless you too.
Jim, excellent point. The Bible study I attend, our worship is just singing acapella and there aren’t any voices in there I could say would make one of the talent shows 🙂
But, we sing from old hymn books, but even then (I’ve learned) you have to be selective. But like you say, the most important to me is the theology, grateful for that so much, not knowing how long it might last, but will be there every night while it’s there.
Kim, that is a good question. Truthfully, I don’t know which Psalters which groups use. I visited a Presbyterian church with my friend when I was in high school. The formality and coldness of her particular church was just dark to me back then. Not even sure if you call them pastors or priests, but he would speak, then the audience, just so monotone and repetitive to me. Not saying some didn’t feel or mean it, just was tough for me to see that.
What Psalters do Presbyterian’s use? Thanks for asking the question by the way.
some verses to chew on
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (spiritual act of worship)
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
As long as the words that are sung are correct pertaining to the definition of a Biblical Christian that represent a simple clear gospel message . my conscience does not bother me., guitars , drums , jump around hoot and holler does not bother me.
How ever to me it all starts with the pulpit person and doctrinal statement under salvation if it is not clear simple Gospel coming across pulpit to me nothing is right.
a twisted gospel message in a song can do more damage to a soul and trap a soul more than most rock and roll. In rock and roll you can hear the deception and expect it. In CCC and some of the old Hymns . it is hard to spot the deception some of it sounds so good but they are singing from a warped salvation message.
I could list several well known songs and groups but i don’t know who the weaker brother is ,maybe it is me. After getting back on the clear simple Gospel of Eph 2:8-9 I put away almost all of my CCC simply because of the doctrinal position they stand for but this is my walk personally .
Many Baptists I know of are fundamental high church types. (Bob Jones style) The music is usually very conservative for church services but may be more laid back for youth meetings etc. The problem is that I may agree with their music standards but not agree with their theology or gospel. Many are Lordship in terms of the gospel and Calvinistic in theology. You’ll even find a few covenant types mixed in. There are some that have moved on to be more contemporary.
For me I would be happy to go to a free grace church even if I had to put up with some music I didn’t really like. For me that is better than putting up with a false gospel. But I haven’t found even a free grace church around here.
I believe things in the church should be done decently and orderly but there is room for each church to decide for themselves how to best conduct a service and which music to use. I believe music should be conducive for glorifying God. I feel there are three pitfalls with music: words that are unbiblical, worldly styles that appeal to the flesh, and songs/styles that glorify the performer more than Christ.
Worship can be formal or informal. Some meet in formal churches others meet in their homes. The Holy Spirit through the Word will convict if something is out of place. Just make sure you use the Word to clarify and you’ll find many principles for the church in Paul’s epistles. (Just like the one Holly mentioned above.)
Hi! What do you mean ” Psalter”… from what I got out of Google, it’s an book that has some Psalms and some “Extra” Biblical reading and not from the “Word of God” itself. Is this correct?
or is this Psalms put into music? Little confused here about the meaning actually. If it’s the Word of God… then YES Baptists(which I used to go to for several years) DOES sing from the Psalms and other Hymns as well..
Does the Psalter you are speaking of come from Calvin?
This is basically what was going through my mind regarding worship.
And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. Col 3:14-17
Dan, I guess I can only think of a few things to answer you with. And I didn’t at all get a desire of debate, just seemed like an honest question for me.
First, I can tell you I prefer a more formal worship myself, in the respect of songs that have meaningful and Biblically correct lyrics. I don’t like ‘worship’ that seems to mimic a nightclub. I guess I don’t have to go too far in explaining that one. I don’t know about Baptists per se’, although I did for awhile in my early teens attend a Southern Baptist church, I cannot truly remember it’s worship, only reflect that it’s probably where I first learned some legalism.
The thing that comes to mind is to stand fast in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and not to be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. That bondage was addressed in the chapter before (Gal. 4) and was identified as the law that came from Mount Sinai. Most definitely the 10 commandments. Is the law good? If one uses it lawfully.
Do churches have a right to apply standards? As long as it’s Biblically correct, they sure should. We know that we live now under the law of Christ, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Gal 6, Rom 8). We are to let the Word dwell richly in our heart, speaking with Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs in our hearts TO the Lord.
So then I think on the greatest two commandments, which are to love the Lord with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength, and others as ourselves. So I guess what I ask, is this worship towards the Lord or self-oriented? Does it align with His Word? Does it possibly offend others? We are to be in fellowship together, so I think a lot of things need to be taken into account. Including even possibly our own traditions that might cause a hang-up, or our preferences, or even our ages 🙂 I know it should be with the right attitude, as unto Him. I remember when I was young, the murmuring in church for a song that had been played by a guitar. It was the guitar, not the words, not the lyrics, not anything but the instrument being a regular guitar…. I have heard people say a drum beat is of the devil I guess that when I hear things like that, I have to say I cannot agree, and yet we must be discerning in all we do, and do what we do, as unto Him.
I hope somehow that answered your question and if I missed, please do let me know. In Christ’s love.
Holly (or anyone else),
Concerning your comment from July 7, 6:37pm
As a former Presbyterian, accustomed to the Presbyterian “Regulative Principle of Worship”, as I am now searching for a church to call home, one of the difficulties I am finding is the seemingly low worship standards in churches.
I admit that I have baggage, and there are a lot of things for me to think through again, as much of what I have believed in the past is built on a system of thought (Covenant Theology). What constitutes proper worship seems to be one of those questions.
Finding a church that preaches free grace is hard enough –this has limited the short list of churches in driving distance to a VERY short list. But the worship standards seem to be lacking….
Where do Baptist churches get their standards for what properly constitutes worship? What are the proper elements of worship? Why are all the dispensationalist/Baptist churches in the area so “informal” in their worship? Is it “okay” to be informal in worship, or should worship be taken more seriously?
Now the Presbyterians/Reformed base their system of worship on the Regulative Principle, which they believe to be an application of the 2nd commandment, as per the WLC Q 108-109, which says:
Q. 108. What are the duties required in the second commandment?
A. The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God hath instituted in his word; particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ; the reading, preaching, and hearing of the word; the administration and receiving of the sacraments; church government and discipline; the ministry and maintenance thereof; religious fasting; swearing by the name of God, and vowing unto him: as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing, all false worship; and, according to each one’s place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry.
Q. 109. What sins are forbidden in the second commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and any wise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever; all worshiping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.
If I am understanding dispensationalism correctly, the 2nd commandment passed away with the Mosaic Covenant. How applicable is it to the worship standards of the church today? Is worship to be limited to the revealed will of God (as in the presbyterian Regulative Principle)… ie, the Word read and preached, prayer, the singing of psalms and hymns, administration of the Lord’s table; or, are churches allowed to “add” to the list? For example, candlelight services at Christmas, or interrupting worship for announcements and/or informal shaking hands… Do Baptist church ever sing from the Psalter? ever?
I don’t want to debate; I sincerely would like to know why Baptists seem so informal, and if (or why) that is acceptable.
The formality/seriousness of worship is what I am going to miss most from the Presbyterian system. 😦
Any answers would be appreciated. I have no intention of debating. I just would like to hear some thoughts.
One other thing just occurred to me as I was sent an advertisement for the puritan/reformed worship which spoke of antichrist worship the ‘reformed church’ needed to come out from. They believe they are under the ten commandments, certainly not understanding the Sabbath nor understanding this was not the day where people went out to ‘church’.
For the reformed though, they have a way of worship, and they find out the ‘principles’ by going to Old Testament Law. They quote Calvin “On the Necessity of reforming the church”. And it’s very ambiguous as they hop from the Old Testament into Revelation, obviously an amillennialist as he relates Rev 18, as the church being told to come out of Babylon (he says Rome).
He speaks of meddling with sins, and the plagues that come to the land, diseased, etc. and gets to the people ‘repented not’. Then he jumps to spiritualizing the Scriptures even further, stating 144,000 is probably not a literal number. Must have reminded him of the Calvinist foundation as he then goes to heavy spiritualizer Augustine (and his disciples) being “so faithful”…. And then he references the true believers as being these sealed people (which are Jews, not the church)…. Amazed.
My eyes are opened each day to the way they see the law, the 10 commandments and even calling themselves “Jews” or “Israel” (Voddie Bauchum). This is why they are so comfortable in their skin, living under the law.
Thanks Jack and John.
This article initially came about because of so many law keepers and Sabbath keepers I was seeing on Facebook. I’d see so many confused by what law they were under, some said they were under the 10 commandments, and were considering the Sabbath on Sunday.
People didn’t quite get the difference between walking by grace and not judging another for Holy days, or Sabbaths, or food etc. Confusion abounds with the Hebrew Roots groups and some of the law-keeping Messianic groups. People were asking if they could ‘keep the law’ just because they wanted to and didn’t know how far was too far.
Enter people like Paul Washer, John MacArthur and all the other works-based Lordship teachers. They are the same Judaizers and people would benefit from really know the Scriptures in these areas. I know it is long, but maybe it will help some who are being ‘troubled’ by these Judaizers/ Lordship doctrinaires (as you call them Jack). The common denominator is the same, they justify themselves by the “many wonderful works they have done in His name”….(Matt 7:22)