By johninnc
My wife’s mother passed away last week, and I had the privilege to deliver the following message at her funeral. My wife’s mother (Doris) did not write this, but we are sure she would have approved.
Ephesians 2:4-7:
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
There’s something that Doris knows is true that she wants everyone else to know. I don’t think she would mind us paraphrasing for her. It goes something like this:
Dear friends,
There is an old adage that there is nothing greater than a mother’s love. As someone who has a mother, and is a mother of five, I understand why some would say this.
But, a mother’s love cannot compare to the perfect love that God has for us.
There is a God. He is the eternal creator, without beginning or end. He created everything, including you and me. He is perfectly holy, perfectly just, and perfectly loving. As such, He cannot allow anything that isn’t perfect into His presence.
You and I aren’t perfect. We have all broken God’s laws, and can’t do anything to fix that. Our efforts to work our way back to God are completely useless.
But, God loves us so much that He would rather die than spend eternity without us.
So, He gave his only begotten Son –Jesus Christ – God in the flesh – to reconcile us to Him.
Jesus had no sin of His own, but bore our sin so that we might be reconciled to God. He had no sin and we had no righteousness. Jesus took our sin from us. He made the complete payment for our sin, leaving us nothing to pay.
He did this by suffering a criminal’s death by crucifixion. He died on the cross, He was buried, and He was raised from the dead three days later, proving that His payment for our sins was accepted.
Anyone who believes in Jesus, and what He accomplished through His death and resurrection – that he paid the full price for our sins, leaving nothing for us to pay – has eternal life. Eternal life means that it can never be lost or forfeited. God no longer sees believers in their sins, but sees them as perfectly righteous.
People will tell you all kinds of different ways to have eternal life, or even that there’s no such thing.
Many people will tell you that Jesus is necessary for salvation, but that He isn’t enough – that you have to “do your part” by reforming your behavior, doing good works, and so on. But this is not true. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
You should listen to what Jesus has to say, above what anyone else tells you. Since Jesus is God, and God is perfect, He cannot lie.
Here is what Jesus says on how to have eternal life:
John 11:25-26:
[25] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
I hope you believe this. I do.
Love. Doris
Notes From A Retired Preacher 
Thank You the reminders Holly and John
Holly, thanks for your words of encouragement for mothers.
It’s a reminder that is good for us mothers when we suffer over our children, going to the Lord over them, knowing that He loves them more than we do, and actually they are a reward for us, given to us by God, and may we be good stewards with that gift.
With Mother’s Day coming up tomorrow, I was reminded of this post.
Praying William for your wife’s cousin to hear and believe the gospel
Bobbie Jo – As I looked at the topic, “something greater than a mother’s love” and what you say about Him, I had to smile about the relevance. May we all do our best to cooperate to let Him work in us by abiding in Him, and abiding in His Word.
Right there with ya, Holly. I tear up when reading His Word. Sometimes even in praying and being with Him. Especially when I mess up and know His love for me. It pains me to hurt Him and to go to Him with it. It’s the same as going to your earthly parents with these things. It hurts and is upsetting but it must be faced if we are to keep our relationship strong. God bless. ❤
Adam7777 thank you.
You said: “Does a child know the difference between head faith and heart faith….of course not because they are not exclusive of one another. The reality of it is is that distinction was made so that calvinists and lordshippers alike could propagate more heresy and change “faith” into a active word —-> and therefore a work.
I agree completely and making that distinction is like saying the one that didn’t show joy is not saved. They want us to all be weeping. Then I would be good, I’m sensitive, so with things of the Lord, I get teary eyed, so I suppose that would make it sure that I belong? That is just another one of their prideful ways of saying “I have faith and you must not”.
William – I am praying with you. I have a friend whose dad was a die hard atheist. He was pretty mean and wouldn’t let them tell him about the Lord. He was in the hospital, (I don’t want to get this wrong) but a nurse came in and shaved him tenderly and carefully. When she was done, she said “Thank you for allowing me to serve you Mr. ______________”. I don’t remember exactly how it happened, but she shared she was a believer, and he cried, I think his daughter said she’d never seen him shed a tear. He was a believer for the last 3 days of his life on earth and one with the Lord now. Praying the same for your wife’s cousin.
William,
absolutely.
William, I have prayed that God would send someone to deliver the gospel to your wife’s cousin, and that he would hear and understand the gospel that he might believe.
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Please pray for my wife’s estranged cousin in Canada who is dying of cancer in the hospital right now. Please pray that God will bring someone into the hospital to share the Free Grace gospel of John 3:16 with him hoping that he will believe and be saved before he dies. Thanks. I appreciate your prayer support.
Hi guys,
I agree 100% that repentance does not always lead to a an immediate change in behaviour, and sometimes it does not outwardly manifest at all in others. If we say it did, that would be essentially nullifying the believers free will and God would be in essence then forcing us to live a life pleasing to Him. But of course we know that that thought and conclusion is absolutely contrary to many of the new believer’s experience Paul spoke to in his epistles (as was already highlighted earlier in this post).
As far as the whole “head faith vs heart faith” farce that Holly referenced, one only needs to look to the Parable of the Sower in the Synoptic Gospels to refute that contrived concept. To save me from becoming duplicitous and redundant, I’ll use the Gospel of Matthew for my example.
Matthew 13:19:
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Notice how one “hears” the truth and then the devil steals away what was sown in his “heart”. The two are synonymous with one another. Another parallel to this is “trusting in Jesus as Saviour” vs. “accepting Jesus as Saviour”. Both are synonymous.
A simple reduction and qualifier for me is always the child like faith standard for many of the “tests” the false prophets of today offer up to quantity things.
Mark 10:15
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Does a child know the difference between head faith and heart faith….of course not because they are not exclusive of one another. The reality of it is is that distinction was made so that calvinists and lordshippers alike could propagate more heresy and change “faith” into a active word —-> and therefore a work.
Sam, I agree that anyone who is basing his salvation on his commitment to his own future performance is trusting in his works for salvation.
Yankee Arnolds book the Gospel driven man says any person who bases his salvation upon the commitment to his future performance is trusting in his works for salvation.page 127
john & holly,
Thankyou so much as always. I just needed some clarification. I have spoken with alot of folks here and you would always find one that says these:
(a person after being saved)
> im sure there would be change… even a little
> its just so hard to believe that there is no change in his life even a tiny change
no no no! a little yeast leaven the whole lump. 99.5% milk with 0.05% cyanide, we still get the poison. people would always want to evidence, and some would even go as far as saying even a tiny evidence of salvation must take place within a person…
its never about the evidence. its about who the person trusts.
Dino, by your churchmen’s definition Repentance is not a change of mind.
It is a change of mind which is followed by a change of behavior.
haha. That’s simply not what Metanoia means.
Have a look at Acts 26:20:
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
If the change of mind naturally resulted in good works (a change in behaviour for the better) then why would “and do works meet (fitting) for repentance” have followed the call for repentance?
Makes no sense at all.
It’s like saying, “change your mind, and automatically good works WILL follow your change your mind! Oh, but I should say that despite the fact that this WILL occur naturally, I should remind you to do good things anyway. In case it doesn’t occur naturally.”
haha.
That’s actually what they believe.
Silly.
Because over half the new testament is effectively Paul teaching believers the same thing.
“do works fitting for repentance”.
He says it in different ways.
“flee from fornication”… etc. Same difference.
You’ve changed your mind. Now live like it!
Dino, however, I remember finding Ron Shea when I went to look for the use of repentance in ancient Greek language, and that’s when I found his page on Plutarch and the criminals deciding to spare the life of a child, and then repenting and killing the child. We can repent to something good (belief) and we can repent to something bad. We can repent from something very neutral, i.e., deciding upon a vanilla vs. a chocolate cone. It depends on what we are changing our mind about. (I kind of think the one that goes for vanilla might not have ‘really’ or ‘truly’ repented) 🙂
Dino – If repentance was a change of mind that led to a change of action, we wouldn’t see so many examples in Scripture where people need to be reminded to do good to others, to pray for others, to maintain good works, to not be conformed to the world, etc. A change of action is definitely not automatic. The only thing that happens for sure when we repent unto believing upon Christ as our Savior, is that HE does certain things.
We are gifted the free gift of eternal life. Reconciled to the Father, born again. We are baptized and sealed by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ. We’ve been passed from darkness to light, and death unto life. Made nigh by His blood, perfected forever, conscience purged and cleansed, washed by His blood, forgiven all trespasses. Translated into the kingdom of His dear Son, our heart circumcised, blessed, justified, sanctified, anointed, adopted as sons…and all by His power, none of our 180 degree turn or change of action or promise of change, etc.
Another favorite seems to be the one about how far the brain is from the heart, they measure that is how far you are from ‘saving faith’. That is not one I agree with either. One either believes on Jesus Christ (who He is and what He did on the cross), or they do not. If the believe they are not condemned, if they don’t believe they are condemned already….
Dino, I don’t think repentance automatically results in any change of action.
However,repentance is used seemingly interchangeably with believing in Christ in certain instances.
Hello brothers, I have a question.
Isn’t it repentance is simply a change of mind? I am going to church where they teach repentance is a change of mind that leads to a change of action.
For Example, Repentance when it comes to salvation is a change of mind which leads to a change of action, and the action according to them is to trust in the Lord Jesus as savior. I do believe they have it correct. However, I don’t believe that repentance is both a change of mind that has an automatic change of action result right?
I believe a person can repent or change his mind and it may not be followed by any change of action. Like If I used to believe that Mcdonalds Chicken is better than KFC and then I changed my mind, KFC is better than McDonalds but there wasn’t any action involved.
Michael, welcome and thanks for your kind words of condolence.
I believe my mother in law had eternal life from the moment she first believed. She is with the Lord now, and her body will be redeemed at the rapture.
Brother John,
My heartfelt condolences to you and those who will miss her in this earthly realm. Congratulations to her though, for the everlasting life that she can soon partake in when Christ resurrects all of the saints at His second coming (that, which I suspect, isn’t too long from now)! May the Lord continue to bless you and your online ministry. It has certainly been a blessing to me.
James,
With your permission, If there anyway I like to have your contact information. Maybe Johninnc can arrange that. I would be glad to mail both “Handbook of Personal Evangelism” by Dr. A. Ray Stanford and “Gospel Driven Man” by Yahnkee Arnold.
I have extra copies of both.
Bryan
Holly,thanks for your prayers.
Bryan Roach – Yankee just recently sent me that, I’ve started it, glad to know you liked it. And oddly, I did a blog with Ray Stanford’s section on Jehovah’s witnesses, I have a student/students from Belgium debating over there, keep them in prayer for me. Here is the section on the JW, I only used the Scripture, but it is here on expreacherman too, very helpful.
http://redeemingmoments.com/2015/03/03/things-jehovahs-witnessed-need-to-know-to-be-saved/
Preston, praying for you and your young friend, as you mentor him, and encourage Him in God’s Word. We know the answer is for him to choose the good part (Lk 10:38-42) so he can be sanctified by the truth (Jn 17:17) and built up by the Word (Acts 20:32). Just keep feeding him the Word. One of my new younger sisters in Christ, had some similar issues. She and I have had fellowship via phone, my Bible study online and FB. She just led a Jewish childhood friend to the Lord (tears). And she just came out of the Anglican church. Just keep reminding your friend, the endurance is to continue to spend time with the Lord, keep short accounts, confess the sin, leave it with His faithful hands, look for verses to hide in His heart to help him with sin. (And give him homework) 🙂 That way you can keep track of his progress as you make a disciple of him and show your love for Christ by feeding His sheep ❤ In Christ…
Johniinc – we pray for you and Jane to be sustained and upheld, as we do for Shirley, may the Lord use all this for your good, for harvest and for His glory.
Adam777 – Thank you my brother in Christ!
I don’t give them much time – (Gal 2:4-5), and definitely I do not yield submission to them for the same reason Paul did not, so that the truth of the gospel might remain. I do praise God that in many ways they show their colors, so those watching might know and see the difference. He actually had the nerve to say, Jesus was a Calvinist before Calvin….
Thanks for the suggestions Bryan as well as everyone else here that have suggested resources.
Preston, is this the young man from Romania? He said he’s been a believer for roughly a year. He told me that his church was teaching false doctrine.
Bryan, thanks for your prayers. It is great to hear from you.
Preston, this sounds like the same young man that I recently encountered on YouTube. I remember I specifically warned him to stay away from the teachings of John MacArthur, John Piper, etc. I think I also encouraged him to visit this website as well. I wonder if it’s the same young man?
James,
“Handbook of Personal Evangelism” by Dr. A. Ray Stanford is also a great book. And so is, “Gospel Driven Man” by Yahnkee Arnold.
Bryan
Johninnc,
I will continue to keep you and your family in my prayers during this time of loss.
God Bless,
Bryan
Preston,
Please be assured that I will be praying for this particular young man as well.
Said a prayer for him Preston.
Preston, I have joined you in praying for this young man.
It sound like he has a heart for the gospel and for evangelism.
Good day,
yes – I consider this website “a church” I go to.
As a result, I would like your help.
There is a young man whom I email often. He is a saved young man.
However, as a “babe in Christ”. He is being attacked about his sin, his relationship with God; why he doesn’t seem “to love God like others”; etc. He appears to be on a “roller coaster ride”; which many of us HAVE experienced.
He asked me to pray for him. I will. Since MANY of us have experienced this, would you guys include this young man in your prayers.
I missed his email yesterday (all shame to me), and he was going to his church for a group function and asked me how he should present the gospel – bless him for having the courage to consider doing this as a babe in Christ.
For whatever reason, my soul is groaning for him this morning; so I figured I would come here; to “my church family”, and ask for your prayers for him
thanks,
William,
I could not agree more my friend. Johninc’s point is absolutely valid and our job in this day and age to bear witness to His truth lovingly, but unapologetically.
Thanks Dan
beholdason, thanks for your kind words and for quoting that beautiful passage of scripture. It is very comforting to know that we have life in Christ Jesus.
Adam, in response to your 2 statements:
” I’ve stopped trying to debate with most of these folks as they refuse to allow the Bible to dictate their doctrine, and rather force their perverted doctrine into the Word. I’ve come now to mostly rely on prayer for these individuals as they refuse to listen to the truth even after many of their fallacies are proved wrong by believers with a sound understanding.”
And
” I absolutely hear where you are coming from buddy but the difficulty is that you’ll find yourself in a “debate” with these folks even over crucially WHAT the Gospel is (as I am sure you’ve experienced by now). They WILL NOT believe that what 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 offers IS the Gospel. They WILL NOT believe that trusting in Christ alone is enough (Acts 16:31) no matter how much supportive Scripture and logical conclusions you offer them. They believe and will vehemently argue until the end that “faith is the gift”, that surrendering your life to Jesus while promising Him this / that, perservering, and living an essentially and perfectly sinless life is what is going to ultimately save them ……only of course if their god has chosen them in his supposedly capricious character in eternity past.”
What you just said is SO TRUE!! This is EXACTLY what I experience EVERY TIME I am engaged in a debate with a Calvinist/Lordship Salvationist up on YouTube. It’s just like a broken record every time. There were days where I could just sit there and quote Scripture after Scripture and they just will not budge!
But I love what John said in an earlier comment. He said, “Not everyone will believe what you tell them. That’s not on you. Your job is to tell them the truth.”
We need to continue doing our job in defending the Free Grace gospel of John 3:16 by telling the Truth and God will do the rest.
I’m sorry to hear about your loss John. You’ve had a tough month. Thinking of you and your wife at this time.
My small contribution today:
Colossians 2:9-15 made me smile this morning. 🙂
“For in him (Christ Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And you are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”
We are complete in Him and have been forgiven of all trespasses.
Nice. 🙂
Hi Mary,
from Mary, you are experiencing what most of the true body of believers have experienced, we must realise that the climate we are living in, is what Jesus predicted. It is sad but i think i can say most of the people on this blog are churchless as they love truth and are not willing to tolerate error and compromise and thats a good thing.
A lot of people i have been speaking to, are still in churches and I really don’t know how. As i said to someone the other day, what does a faithful pastor look like these days, there are the exceptions like Tom Cucuzza and Ralph Arnold and the Scudders. I can no longer sit under false teaching, after being showed these doctrines of demons, i can no longer sit under these sermons, my spirit honestly does the flip flops.
Jesus said when he comes back will he find any faith. The churches will be full, full of false christians. I seriously don’t know how people can overlook errors. It is a hard thing to leave a church and the people you love behind, but it is necessary. In time the lord will give you the courage to take a stand and separate from all that is false.
Thats why we are on this blog, to encourage one another and reassure ourselves we are on the right track. We will all support and love you in prayer inthese days of mass deception.
Stay strong, be encouraged, once you leave these compromising churches you will be stronger for it.
This site is our church, pray for like minded believers, keep up listening to sermons on line, today we have the technology to keep gods word at our disposal 24 7. Listen to Tom Cucuzza and Ralph Arnold Yankee and Dennis Rokser from Duluth Bible Church. These sermons will keep you grounded.
God Bless.
James,
Depending on your level,
Easier level:
Charles Bing – Simply by Grace: An Introduction to God’s Life Changing Gift.
Medium level:
Dennis Rokser – Shall Never Perish Forever: Is Salvation Forever or Can it be Lost?
Higher Level:
Charles Bing – Lordship Salvation: A Biblical Evaluation and Response
David R Anderson – Free Grace Soteriology
Multiple authors (edited by Hixon, Whitmore, Zuck) – Freely by His Grace: Classical Free Grace Theology
John and Preston thanks for the suggestions appreciate it.
Hi Mary!
I’m so thankful that our Lord led you to this website and that His Spirit has in fact been confirming in you that what you are hearing in your church is not the truth. These calvinism, lordship doctrines are spreading like wild fire in contemporary Christendom and many of us as a result have had to depart from our churches because of said heresy leaching in.
If you do decide to depart from your church, know that it will certainly be a difficult time for you (and your family) as you will likely feel alone, and of course you will be accused by those of many things like “having all the answers”, etc . Know, however, that the Lord lives in you and will never leave you nor forsake you, and also that we are here for you as a body of believers as well.
Johninc is very good at offering sound and Scriptural answers to any Biblical questions you may have, as are many others on this site!
Bless you for refusing to go along, to get along with those who would pervert our Lord’s precious truth.
Please also consider listening to Dr. Thomas Cucuzza’s online resources if you haven’t already delved into them. He is candidly the most accurate pastor / expositor of the Bible I have ever come across in my Christian walk to date.
Hey Curtis M!
I absolutely hear where you are coming from buddy but the difficulty is that you’ll find yourself in a “debate” with these folks even over crucially WHAT the Gospel is (as I am sure you’ve experienced by now). They WILL NOT believe that what 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 offers IS the Gospel. They WILL NOT believe that trusting in Christ alone is enough (Acts 16:31) no matter how much supportive Scripture and logical conclusions you offer them. They believe and will vehemently argue until the end that “faith is the gift”, that surrendering your life to Jesus while promising Him this / that, perservering, and living an essentially and perfectly sinless life is what is going to ultimately save them ……only of course if their god has chosen them in his supposedly capricious character in eternity past.
I gave the strong first statement preceding because many of these folks I found have an un-teachable spirit and resist / reject the truth even though the Bible is written so that a child can glean the message of the Gospel and understand it unto salvation. These folks are damning people to an eternity in hell with their message and I know none of us takes that lightly.
Your quotation of Romans 10:3 is precisely accurate and applies directly to these individuals as all their efforts stem from and appeal to their religious pride. Ironic don’t we think that pride is the original sin that found the evil one being cast out of heaven…
To William,
I have also used that logical follow-through from their doctrine regarding their loved ones being predestined to go to hell, but generally I get told I’m putting words in their mouth and it immediately offends them. This is of course though is after going through what “tulip” means to them and confirming that they believe and do hold to reformed theology.
I found this blog about two months ago, and it’s been such a comfort to me to know that there are other people who feel so strongly about the danger of Calvinism, Lordship Salvation, etc. Even before finding this website I’ve been considering looking for a new church because there’s a lot of bad doctrine creeping in at the one I currently attend. So I’ve been praying about it recently, and this morning I was I little freaked out at the sermon. It was as if the pastor knew what I had been reading in the Bible this week, and twisted those exact Scriptures to a works-based salvation. There were so many statements he made that contradicted things I’ve been specifically praying for a church to believe.
If that’s not God’s way of telling me it’s time to leave my church, I don’t know what is! I currently serve in the church on Sundays, so I’m not going to venture out until that service commitment is over. But I know that it will be very difficult for me because I do have a definite attachment to the church and a lot of people that attend. But I’ve been seeing the warning signals for a very long time, and I think it’s time to step out in faith.
James,
I don’t read many extra-biblical things but enjoyed “In defense of the Gospel” by Lou Martuneac
James, you should check out the “Clear Gospel Ministries” website by Ron Shea.
It has a lot of good information.
Adam, thanks for your condolences.
I agree with you. I don’t seek out people who are hostile to grace to engage in debate. We get plenty of those passively at ExPreacherman
for me personally I go straight to the gospel and avoid debate. somewhere any ist , ism or ite has a twist on the simplicity of Christ.
like a mechanic who uses a square to find were its not square.
you can catch them all at THE Gospel until they are squared off THE Gospel really not much sense in going further unless you really like to torment yourself the person you are trying to reach is caught in a “system of thought” . Like Holly said Calvinism was set up for debate to keep you occupied and off center of the target .
I like to find out if they have trusted Jesus as their Savior. believer people get caught in all kinds of ist’s ism’s and ite’s from not reading scripture studying and praying and seeking wisdom and understanding.
i heard a statement one that went something like “for some Its not that they are resisting Truth it is they are struggling to find Truth of scripture”.
Yes I / We may be called heretics BUT depends on what basis you use to Judge ?
according to the teachings of men Yep I am a heretic .
let God be true, but every man a liar
Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
establish their own righteousness
Rom_10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Johninc,
I will be praying for you and your wife during this subsequent difficult time.
HollyS my sister,
The response this calvinist gave you is absolutely nauseating and his desire to appear righteous is overwhelmingly contrived. Pathetic really. Clearly, his father is the father of lies and he has drank his father’s juice. Therefore, when he speaks, he speaks out of the poison inside.
I’ve stopped trying to debate with most of these folks as they refuse to allow the Bible to dictate their doctrine, and rather force their perverted doctrine into the Word. I’ve come now to mostly rely on prayer for these individuals as they refuse to listen to the truth even after many of their fallacies are proved wrong by believers with a sound understanding.
Holly, I used this question on a few Calvinists up on YouTube and when I used it, I usually get silence. Anyway, the question goes like this:
How would you feel (the Calvinist) if God “predestined” the loved ones that are the most dearest and closest to you to HELL? I’m sure you (the Calvinist) have family and I find it hard to believe that God has “predestined” your whole family to heaven.
Like I said, every time when I throw this question, the Calvinist suddenly freezes and can’t give me an answer and stops debating with me. LOL!!!!
I hate to ask this during John’s grievance time but what books are out there to learn Free Grace Theology other then Secure Forever?
William, actually few use the KJV, most lean towards the ESV. KJV is a solid translation, but the understanding of words is difficult. We know the Bible doesn’t contradict itself, so when we see what seems to be conflicting Scriptures, we are blessed to be able to look it up, God has created everything even those who have chosen to disobey. Jesus told those disciples they weren’t worthy of Him if they didn’t hate their mother, father, sister, brother, children, wife, etc. Yet when a Calvinist used the Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated verse to say God hated Esau because he was the reprobate, I asked him if he hated his wife as it is the same word, and means to love less (and besides Esau there speaks to a nation). Anyways, here was his answer regarding me asking, “do you hate your wife? Your mother? Your father?”
He responded, “Your question only shows your ignorance of things biblical and the faith of God. Of course I do hate them in comparison to my love of Christ. And if I so hate them, you can not imagine what’s going on in my mind regarding heretics (he’s called me a heretic many times) since you haven’t a clue about what Christ meant when he said He “so loved the world.” The truth is, His love extents so far as to endure most of the world with much patience as vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.
John you’re welcome for the prayer. And as far as this whole Calvinist debate as some say be a Berean.
Great comment John, well it appears the the KJV does not have the best translation after all. I can see why Calvinists jump to the KJV.
Preston, I did!
I cant help myself!!!!!!
“yeah, what John said” 🙂
c’mon John, you know you laughed!!!!!
William, “evil” in these contexts means “disaster” or “calamity”.
See Jonah 3:10.
Preston or John,
Here’s another 2 passages that hardcore Calvinists use to justify that “God does as He pleases”.
Isaiah 45:7 -KJV 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Amos 3:6 – KJV – Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?
How would you guys exegete these 2 passages correctly to refute the Calvinist’s perversion of them?
William,
the truth- I have never been given that verse in a debate (I don’t seem to debate election much).
I would not have pulled the detailed answer that John gave. BTW John, that was really good!!!!
I don’t think I can add anything to it
yes, the anointed one was Jesus.
as a broad note : you know Calvinists believe in the “complete sovereignty” of God. I think we both see it as; man has free will BUT God interjects to show us who is (prophesy). It was predestined that Christ would come and die, it MUST happen.
At that moment in time, God used those available (all unbelievers at the time) to fulfill His purpose. Does this mean they were “predestined” to hell? NO
john makes an excellent point, some of those Israelites who crucified Him became believers (Acts 2 and 3), so how could they be “predestined to crucify Him”.
ALL, I think this “scenario” tells us something. We all as individuals don’t have ALL the answers, but together we do pretty well. Don’t be afraid to ask questions, someone will more then likely have a biblical answer with scripture to back it up.
John, your answer was sooooo much better then mine would have been!!!!
I was thinking about just posting, “yeah, what John said”. 🙂
Thanks John and Holly for your responses. Sometimes it’s very frustrating and hard when I debate a hardcore Calvinist. They are very clever at throwing out passages in Scripture that appear to support “predestination”. Many of the passages that they throw out seem to mean what it says when I first read it. They are experts in perverting the Word and eisegesis. We all really need to sharpen and hone our skills in exegesis.
John, this was truly beautiful, and I pray that Jane is comforted, and that there will be people who will come to believe in the clear and simple gospel because of doing this. What a honor and a blessing. A privilege (although very difficult) to speak at a loved one’s service.
William, the problem with debating Calvinists is just that. It’s typically foolish arguments, and they are not willing to look at the context of Scripture which we know becomes pretext, or a proof text. They don’t consider the whole counsel of God. Be careful lest you also get drawn in by their clever wresting of the Scriptures to their own destruction (whether physical or eternal consequences).
Make sure you are really balanced in the Word and spend time on one answer, what John just gave you save. Make a spreadsheet with key words, and key Scriptures, similarly to what John has here already. It will sharpen you in no time, but be willing to again study inductively, ask questions, gather cross references. If you do, you’ll find that Pharaoh hardened his heart first. It was just a matter of God knowing what he would do. What a wicked man he was going to be.
Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed? 1 Sam 6:6
William, I know you asked Preston, but I’ll give it my two cents worth as well.
1. Regarding the “wicked”
That can be any of us. God made all people (all sinners). He did not make the sin.
Jeremiah 17:9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
2. Regarding Acts 4:26-28
[26] The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
[27] For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
[28] For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
This is the fulfillment of prophecy – that Christ came to die for us. The “whom thou hast anointed” in verse 27 refers to Jesus, not to Herod, Pilate, etc. The “whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done” refers to the crucifixion. See Revelation 13:8:And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
So, of course this was “determined before to be done”.
Some of the Jewish people, who were said here to be complicit in the crucifixion, are in heaven today.
Acts 2:36-38:
[36] Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
[37] Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. Regarding Proverbs 16:4
Proverbs is not the best place for gospel-related doctrine.
16:4: The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
I see this simply as saying that everything will be done to glorify God. He does not choose who will accept Christ and who will not.
4. Regarding Pharaoh
Pharaoh had plenty of opportunity to believe BEFORE God hardened him. This will be the same in the tribulation times for people who refuse to believe.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12:
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
5.Shame on you for even proclaiming you’re a Christian!
What difference does it make, if God decides everything, the shame would be on Him, not you.
6. How does your Calvinist friend dispense with John 3:16, John 3:18, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, etc., etc., etc.?
William and Sam, thanks for your heartfelt prayers. I think funerals are a natural time for people to comtemplate eternity, and maybe to be receptive to hearing the gospel.
Johninnc my heart is feeling for your family as your going through so much in such a short time.That is a great way for the Gospel to go forward as people are thinking about the fact that none of us are going to live forever.I hope everyone there was listening.Praying for you all.
Preston,
I feel very stumped right now. I am currently debating a very devout and hardened Calvinist up on YouTube and I’m having a very hard time refuting the following passages that this Calvinist has posted in support of his false doctrine.
The following is the most recent comment that he made and I’m having a hard time refuting it:
“It does not matter where the word “reprobate” is used in the Scriptures.
What matters is, does God create a reprobate?
Well, according to the Scriptures, He does! And He explicitly says so, ” The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” (Proverbs 16:4
You see, evil is an act and not an object. The object is “the wicked”. And wasn’t Pharaoh, Pilate, Herod and those who sent Christ to Calvary, counted as “the wicked”?
Wasn’t crucifying the Lord of Glory and a sinless man who has done no wrong an act of evil? Of course, it was the ULTIMATE act of what evil is. And who were the perpetrators? “The wicked”. And who were the “wicked”? Wasn’t it Pharaoh, Pilate and the people?
What more, God condescended to tell us that He was behind it in Acts 4:27,28 –
“For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”
Again, for you very eyes: “…Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, WERE GATHERED TOGETHER, For TO DO WHATSOEVER THY HAND AND THY COUNSEL DETERMINED BEFORE TO BE DONE.”
Still in unbelief who’s behind everything?
Shame on you for even proclaiming you’re a Christian!”
When you first read these passages, they appear to support Calvinistic “predestination”. If God creates so called “reprobates”, then that is also in essence saying that God created serial killers, serial rapists, etc, which is calling God the author of sin.
I need help on this one. Thanks!
I’m sorry to hear of your mother in laws passing. I’m praying that God will comfort your family.
Preston and James, thanks for your prayers.
Prayer for you,your family and friends.
thoughts and prayers for your family.
Sorry to hear John, in our thoughts and prayers.