John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I recently read a fascinating article on Yahoo entitled “Raising Kids Without God (But Maybe Not Without Religion)”, written by Calvin Hennick.
The crux of the article seemed to be that the writer wanted his kids to go to church so that they could contemplate the meaning of life.
Following are some of the salient excerpts:
My wife and I both grew up with a fairly evangelical, literalist brand of Christianity, and while we don’t quite consider ourselves atheists, we certainly don’t believe the things we believed when we were kids…
So, if I no longer believe that God can grant my family salvation in a life after this one, why am I thinking about going back to church now that I have kids? It’s not out of a desire to instill morality in them. Anyone who takes a look around can see that there are good and bad people of all faiths, and of no faith, and personally, I have pretty much the same sense of right and wrong that I did when I was a born-again Christian…
Instead, I’d like my kids to have a place where they can contemplate essential, universal questions about what it means to live a good life. I’d like for them to be part of a community searching for something bigger than the joys and struggles of everyday life – even if this “something greater” isn’t God. And I’d like these things for myself, too…
I still think it’s possible for my kids, and for me, to find meaning and community without God. But it might be a whole lot harder to find these things without church.
This is a very tragic article on so many levels.
First, the writer says that he and his wife “grew up” with Christianity. Did they? Was it ever made clear to them that they were sinners, alienated from God due to their sin? Were they taught that God, in his love for us, gave His only begotten Son – Jesus Christ (God in the flesh) – to take away the sins of the world by dying for us? Was it ever made clear to them that one need only to believe in Jesus as Savior in order to receive eternal life?
Second, the writer seems to equate trusting in Christ for eternal life with trusting in Him to make us good, and moral. Jesus did not die to give us a “sense of right and wrong.” He died to take away our sins. Were the writer and his wife taught that one believes in Jesus in order to make them good? Or, were they taught that one believes in Jesus for eternal life?
Third, the writer says that he used to be a born again Christian. There is no such thing as someone who used to be a born again Christian. If the writer ever believed in Jesus as his Savior, he has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.
Last, having one’s children explore “what it means to live a good life” without teaching them how one receives eternal life is worthless.
While the writer claims to no longer believe in God, his faulty views of the Christian faith seem to have been embraced by many groups masquerading as Christian churches. And, many such groups are worthless in terms of either leading people to the Lord, or helping believers to grow in their faith.
Let’s investigate how three groups of people who identify as Christians deny the gospel. We will use John 3:16 as the backdrop:
Calvinists – believe that God chooses who will believe and who will not. Therefore, they deny the “whosoever” of John 3:16. They also believe that all “true believers” will persevere in holiness, and Godliness, thus revealing that they are believers through their good works. Since one cannot know whether he has been “chosen”, and since one’s works will demonstrate that he has been “chosen”, these people will invariably look to works for assurance of eternal life.
Lordship “salvationists” – believe that one must either make a bi-lateral contract with God in order to receive eternal life (such as “repenting from one’s sins” or “making Christ Lord of one’s life”) or that one who has received eternal life will show some ill-defined “life change” to prove he is a believer in Christ. Therefore, they deny the “believeth in Him” of John 3:16. Like the Calvinist, LSers will invariably look to works – at least in part – for assurance of eternal life.
Arminians – believe that one can lose his eternal life through sin. Since this is a concept not found in the Bible, this group can never tell you how much sin it takes to lose one’s “eternal life.” Accordingly, they look to works for evidence of eternal life, thereby denying the “everlasting life’ promised in John 3:16.
Perhaps your church is clear on the gospel, and never teaches any of the above concepts. If so, great! But, if your church teaches any of these things – either implicitly or explicitly – you and your family are in grave danger.
If you would like to know how to receive eternal life please click here: ETERNAL LIFE FOR YOU
Interesting you mention staying close to the light.
I was just reading 1 John (You know, to test my faith – kidding) and when I got to the verses about fellowship it got me thinking about our fellowship with God and walking in light/truth and not in darkness.
I was also reading something in Mark yesterday and noticed now twice the word Abide is used in the context as remaining.
So I find it interesting that the authors would use the word abide to refer to a different object, not being Christ. Remaining in Christ seems like a good idea. ha
BeholdaSon – yes, God is so good. I have come to realize it as moving close to the Shepherd, who has the rod and the staff to comfort me 🙂 To keep coming back when I stray. My endurance I ‘think’ is to just get back in the Word if I’ve been out, to try to remember to pray for more things, to fellowship with believers. We need these things. Once we realize our position, it’s out of understanding the benefit to us not only just today, but in every aspect of our life on earth, and our life to come. Makes sense for the saved person to stay close to the Savior, to the one who is able to present us faultless. Simply put, I can do nothing without Him, I need Him. So I try to stay close by prayer and His Word and other believers. I’d like to stay close to the light….
Nathan, I was the same. I thought abiding in Christ was somehow maintaining good works. I now come to understand abiding as resting.
Resting in Christ’s righteousness. Not trusting in my own way of salvation through good works but simply abiding in Christ.
God is so good.
Good way to put it Nathan, we have a belief that saves, but we have belief in our walk that does not have to do with eternal life. This belief in Him saves us from a multitude of things like broken fellowship with Him, loss of fellowship with others, chastening, loss of rewards, loss of our testimony with others which can cause loss of life for them.
The Word strengthens that faith (and our shield of faith), and being in prayer with Him, trying to acknowledge Him in more of our ways (with His help), we get help in which direction to go, which is so much better than our own way.
I finally figured my endurance was leaning on and trusting in Him by simply spending time with Him and in His Word. We have need of cooperation, but I truly think it’s really simple if we keep reminding ourselves, it’s by the Lord we are kept, and by the Lord’s Word we are washed, and guided, counselled, taught, our paths lit up, our hearts made wise, etc. Since He does the work, makes sense for us to stay close to the potter and the water to keep us pliable 🙂
Thank you for your encouraging words. As I was reading along you said, “All were clean but one, but we need to abide in the Lord” This stuck out for me.
For most of my life it was difficult to understand what “Abiding in the Lord” meant. But then Jack Weaver helped me to understand the truth of the Gospel of the Grace of God through the finished work of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. Now “Abiding in the Lord” makes complete sense.
In the past I thought abiding in the Lord was tied to some sort of works or doing good to show I was abiding. This error was a combination of my own flawed understanding of the Gospel as well as the false teaching and preaching I was unknowingly slurping up from many different theological sources. Confusion abounded.
But since coming to know the real truth of the Gospel of Grace I can see that abiding in the Lord simply means that I only need REST in the assurance of salvation provided by the finished work of Jesus Christ. It is a daily thought process and I preach the Gospel of Grace to myself everyday. Keeping this truth as the first line of thought in everything is the power and walking in the Spirit of truth. I do not venture from this anchor of truth that is in the once for all finished work of Jesus Christ alone for me. He sustains me by His finished work.
I had to realize that not only did I not need to do works to be saved, but that even more I don’t need to do works to remain saved. I place all my faith in Him, Jesus Christ and His finished work alone.
The meaning of faith is rest. Faith is resting. Resting in Him alone.
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Dino, keep sticking with men who have approved themselves by humility, but sound speech that cannot be condemned, by using the Word, and by you proving all things by His Word. Test the spirits, and keep praying for everything 🙂
BeholdaSon, I too have used the term progressive, I think a better word is practical vs. positional.
Positionally, we are sanctified/perfected forever, Christ became our sanctification.
Practically as we walk in this life, our feet get dirty. We need washed in the water by the Word. I think we see that in John 13 in the washing of the disciple’s feet. All were clean but one, but we need to abide in the Lord (apart from Him we can do nothing) and abide in His Word (to be good pupils/students).
We are being transformed by the renewing of our minds, which is why we need the Word. His Word is the truth Jesus prayed for us to be sanctified by.
The Psalmist said, ‘thy Word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against thee’. It also says 2 verses earlier in Ps 119, how can a young man cleanse their way — by taking heed to the Word.
So sometimes it seems difficult, but we look for instruction and enlightenment from His Word for areas we struggle in. My husband was raised in a household where minor curse words were routinely used. It was a habit hard to break, and troubled him, but he’d joke that ass and hell were in the Bible (true enough). Yet, I couldn’t nag him into getting better, but I could pray for him in it. You know the Lord worked in him, and sometimes in areas we’re not expecting first, at the end, He sure made him beautiful. More humble than I. Less judgmental than I was for his splinter of cuss words against my beam of a self-righteous attitude. He was praying for me, and I was nagging him for not cleaning up faster. What shame and hurt that still brings me. So we pray for each other in our weaknesses, it’s hard to trust others with these things, but the Lord is trustworthy. Look up in His Word, verses that will help counsel you in that area, and trust in the power of His Word, pray, confess, and stay in close fellowship with Him.
There was no ‘cut’ with the false prophets. None of them were going because they were justifying themselves BY their works instead of BY His work on the cross for all men.
Love in Jesus Christ eternally (had to get that one right for Jack) ❤
John, on the Hebrew Roots movement, yes, many now claim Paul was a false prophet because they have too much trouble with his epistles. There are some who do not claim that, but they are still law all the way and sort of re-write what he says as several follow Rabbi’s many are just as lordship and if not more than any of the teachers here.
WND carries a lot of the favorite ones, Rood, Biltz, Jim Staley, etc. They claim special understanding of the Scriptures, many say because they have a ‘Hebrew mindset’, i.e. Jacob Prasch, who is Pentecostal Arminian, but still displays some of the HRM thinking. Here was the article here that spoke a little on it.
Beholdason, agree that only God knows the heart. People make the “final cut” the moment they believe in Christ. That is the sole criterion by which their eternal destiny will be judged.
Like the old saying goes: “you’re either a saint, or you ain’t.”
Thanks guys. I’ll check out that sermon. 😀
I guess the problem comes down to us fruit inspecting others when only God knows the heart. Matthew 7 is pretty sobering. The most religious LSers can do all manner of good deeds in His name and yet still not make the final cut.
I testify to God ‘cleaning up’ many areas of my life but only because I’ve read the Word over and over and it’s clear in my mind how I ought to live. I suppose it comes down to a healthy fear of the Lord. You no longer want to deceive, steal, speak evil etc. so I guess it’s normal that once that desire is for righteousness, God will slowly help you to gain victory over the flesh.
Thanks for your responses.
Jim, thanks for the reference!
Beholdason, the Bible says if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. So, we do have some choice in the matter.
True transformation will happen by grace through faith in Christ. See Galatians 3.
I think the Holy Spirit is at work in believers’ lives, even though it may not be evident to them. For example, helping them to understand and remember the parts of scripture they have read,
I guess I am having trouble reconciling the “nothing happened” comment with scripture that teaches an eternally secure believer may quit believing.
In this case, it may appear that “nothing happened”, even though the person has eternal life.
Still others may have very little happen. How much is enough?
And, some non-believers may show evidence of “something having happened.”
It is true that we are positionally set apart at the moment we trust Christ as Savior, but there is also a principle of practical progressive sanctification. The problem as with justification is many have hijacked the Biblical teaching and added their own counterfeit in place. Just as LS types will add in works to grace, so will they add works to sanctification in that they will say that a person will necessarily show fruit, obey, live right etc or then the accusation is made that the person wasn’t really saved. The thing to remember is that just as justification happenby grace through faith, so does progressive sanctification (ongoing growth and obedience).
Pastor Dennis Rokser has a good sermon on all of this. Just do a search on the message “Clearing Up Some Critical Confusion About Sanctification” You’ll be able to find it on sermon audio. Worth the time I would say.
I’m wondering about something you wrote:
“However, I can’t recommend him, because he insisted that if someone becomes saved and “nothing happens”, they weren’t really saved, because the Holy Spirit would start to transform them in a positive way.”
In regards to the Holy Spirit’s transforming of a believer in a positive way… I’ve always been told that this would happen. Never as a way of testing or proving one’s faith but just that it would happen.
I know I struggled with many outward sins for many years yet always knew Christ died for me and I wanted others to be saved. So I wonder how much of this teaching is true. Does the Holy Spirit transform us without our help/effort? Is this biblical?
I’ve taken a bit step away from doctrinal positions and am trying to figure out what the bible really does teach on all the issues I’ve had to filter through.
If the Holy Spirit does transform us, why am I still struggling with swearing some 16 years after coming to faith in Christ? (serious question).
How can Paul’s wrestling with his flesh/the Spirit be any different to our own Christian experience/normal Christian life?
I’m starting to really doubt that God changes us without our effort. Otherwise why would 90% of the NT be exhorting believers to keep at it (holiness/righteous living)… and teaching them to avoid sin?
Beholdason, I have used this term in the past (including recent past), but agree that it is not the best term.
I think being transformed by a renewing of the mind, and growing in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ are the concepts.
Others may use the term progressive sanctification, and it won’t trouble me, provided it is not used in a “perseverance of the saints”, or similar ways. I think those who use progressive sanctification here are generally clear that we are saints (sanctified) from the moment of belief.
If you look at our statement of faith, you will notice that it says a believer is sanctified from the moment of belief.
I recently heard a pastor who taught against progressive sanctification, due to sanctification happening positionally at the moment of belief.
However, I can’t recommend him, because he insisted that if someone becomes saved and “nothing happens”, they weren’t really saved, because the Holy Spirit would start to transform them in a positive way. He mentioned their attendance at his church as being one such “evidence” of something having happened. I object to this teaching, because a lost person who hears this message may think that he has to see changes before he can know whether his belief “worked”. And, it may also lead to fruit inspection – of oneself and others.
Can someone please explain Progressive Sanctification to me?
My understanding is that I HAVE BEEN sanctified at the point of salvation.
I AM sanctified now.
Is Progressive Sanctification a Calvinist teaching which confuses holiness / service with our holy state IN Christ? ie: declared righteous/holy because of Jesus’ righteousness?
I keep seeing that term pop up and did a search on sanctification/sanctify in the bible and it appears I’m already there. haha. What’s this progression bit and is it biblical?
All attendees of the Grace Conference are given a cd of the sessions. I then pick out some that I like best and make them available to listen to on my blog. The format though doesn’t allow for downloading. I have contacted Quentin Road Baptist Church in the past to get some extra cd’s to pass out. If you want one you would have to enter a comment on my blog so that I can see your email address. Just don’t include your actual email address in the comment itself. Now I don’t make a practice of this as I would never be able to keep up but will consider it in your case.
That is right because they would not have the new man having never believed. We have to remember that the new man does not sin, the old one does, and believers have both. Calvinists will tend to deny this at least to an extent. It goes right along with their blending of justification and progressive sanctification.
Nathan, your explanation is consistent with grace.
The one I quoted was not. It was more in the vein of perseverance of the saints.
From the looks of this, if reading in context, 1 John 3:8 would be explained by verse 7 above and verse 9 below.
Doing righteousness in verse 7 would be believing in the finished work of Jesus Christ thereby placing you in the position stated in verse 9, being born of God or born again.
The he that committeth sin in verse 8 would be those that do not believe in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
don’t know how to download them Dino , I tried , you may need to ask Jim Floyd on his blog , I think he may have paid for them and you may need permission to distribute , But i am speculating .
I came across another interesting take on the Christian Faith today in an article from a member church of something called “The Alliance.”
I will not mention the name of the church, or article, but just give the quote.
“No one who practices open rebellion and sin can possibly be a Christian.(1 John 3:8)”
Holly (or anyone), we received an e-mail question on the Hebrew Roots movement. I thought I recalled having seen you comment on this in the past.
If so, could you share with us what you know about this movement?
See the e-mail excerpt below:
I was doing some research on religious studies the other day and came across a very bizarre movement called the Hebrew Roots Movement. One of the things that really stuck out to me is that they’re claiming that the Apostle Paul was a false prophet. Where on earth would they get this false idea from? I don’t understand.
how do I download those preachings? I’d love to give them to my friends over here in manila so that I can give them someone else to listen to instead of Jmac and francis chan or steven furtick. those guys sell like hotcakes here. They even go for the “Movie Celebrity turned Christians” that preach LS
I know you guys know Manny Pacquaio. He preached here once in one of our stadiums. I did not get to hear his preaching. He was speaking in our language. But I can quote somewhat what he preached to thousands of youth since one of my friends heard him. Hey! He claims to be a Christian and I don’t have anything against manny. Actually he’s one of my idols since he has beaten almost everyone in his ranks (Except for Floyd Mayweather). I heard they were going to fight this may 2015
This is what Manny said, it’s a classic
“You guys claim to know Jesus! you guys claim you have faith but you don’t have works!”
Lol.. and the thing is that he doesn’t even elaborate if what he said was for salvation or for service! He just called on the people to rededicate their lives to the Lord without even mentioning the gospel of Jesus Christ (faith alone in Christ alone). I was worried for the tens of thousands that heard him preach that message that cannot save..
I’d say that he just stick to the boxing gloves instead of preaching. I even heard him planning to establish a church in one of our provinces. A huge church and he was going to be a preacher, not just a congressman, He’s even playing in our national basketball league here in manila. hehe.
Totally Holly. You’re the bad guy. Always. Discernment isn’t a gift. No no, it’s being negative and intolerant and critical! So unloving!!
I just finished reading Acts and when I read chapter 28:23-24 it went like this:
Paul “… testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and the prophets, from morning till evening.
And some BELIEVED the things which were spoken, and some BELIEVED NOT”.
No mention of turning from sin or repenting from sin. They simply heard about the Lord Jesus Christ who Paul continually testified about during his little adventures. Some believed the report (and were saved) and some did not believe and remained condemned.
Simple isn’t it.
So glad the Bible doesn’t confuse things.
here is sermons from Grace conference
Thanks Holly. I recently deleted all of my IFB preachings.
So far I have done everything to clean my phone and my laptop of IFB preachings. I’ll stick with Dr. Yankee, Tom and James Scudder
I saw the difference… and it’s a big one. Every time these guys preach, they ALWAYS have the message of the cross and these IFB preachers do not.
Nathan I agree that is ambiguous. What if we don’t understand all about what God thinks about our sin? (And no one does, even as we learn more and more and grow in the knowledge of Him, we still can’t fathom how repugnant it is, nor the depth of His love).
And just using the phrase ‘repent of my sin’ bothers me. What sin? Unbelief (Jn 16:8-9)? If we have repented, it means we have believed differently than we did before. We no longer believe as we used to, whether it was that there was no god, or other gods, or other ways of salvation (Acts 17:29-30), or our own self-righteousness (Is 64:6, Rom 10:3). Whatever it was that we previously believed, we now have our faith in Jesus as the only way to attain eternal life, our Savior plus nothing else will save.
We believe that the gift is free and that the gift is eternal life (Rom 6:23). That we were saved from the penalty of sin forever (Rom 3:23). That Jesus is God our Savior, who died for our sin, who was buried in our place, risen again, as we were too are in faith (Col 2:12-14). Jesus took away the penalty of death, along with taking away our sins (Jn 1:29). He gave us forgiveness of all our trespasses (Col 2:13), justification to eternal life (Rom 5:18), and Christ as our righteousness (Rom 10:4), the Holy Spirit as the seal unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
BeholdaSon. If that made you choke on your coffee, how about this one? The sheep have sharp teeth too. The sheep are sitting there with grandma wolf. And she’s about ready to devour them. But if you dare tell them, “look out, that grandma has really sharp teeth, and really big eyes, flee Red Riding Hood”…..
The sheep are not as discerning as Red Riding Hood was. They will chew you up and spit you out as they chastise you for your lack of love. Remind you of unity. Tell you that we should be ‘restoring our brother’. Judge us for judging, using ‘judge not lest ye be judged’. Suggest we are ‘sowing discord’ and/or as one did last night suggest the enemy was using me (as I dared bring up doctrine).
I don’t know which one are sheep without understanding (Rom 1:31) or which ones are still blinded (2 Cor 4:4). Either way, they’re about to be devoured, and they are prey, but they shout loudly to protect the one who is ready to devour them…
Dino – a quick look on Dr. Kidd’s website, shows he has his fists up as if ready for a fight. I could not find a gospel. The second and third links on google showed he has used the ‘f’ word from the pulpit. But Dino, even ‘revivalist’ is suspect to me. What revival will we have in the end times before the tribulation? The church of Philadephia will barely have strength.
I say stick with the ones you know have a clear gospel, easily available, and ‘prove all things’ first before you listen to men like these. They blaspheme the way of truth and they also malign the character of God as people see their hate-filled messages, and their beam they have in their own eye as they rail against the sins ‘they don’t do’….
In Christ eternally 🙂
Nathan, Jack and I diacussed this a while back. We used to have a link to his site, but removed it out of concern for a possibly confusing message.
I was looking at the Graceconference.com site. Looking over their list of speakers I noticed that Dr. Carl Baugh is attending. He is founder and Director of Creation Evidence Museum, Glen Rose, Texas. I used to watch him on his TV show that aired on TBN a few years back. Lots of Creation science lessons.
I went to his website to learn more about him. Now that I am seeking to discern what teachers and preachers believe in their statements of faith, I dig into their beliefs to consider whether I will continue listening to their messages.
I am concerned after reading Dr. Baugh’s page, Biblical Principles & Learning – What Does My Creator Think of Me section. Scrolling to the bottom of the page is a section titled “HOW DO I ACCEPT THE GIFT OF FORGIVENESS FOR MY SIN SO THAT I CAN GO TO HEAVEN?” The very first line says…..”Repent of my sin: accept what God thinks of my sin. “repent ye, and believe the gospel.” Mark 1:15″
Gave me a red flag moment. Not sure what he is saying here since I agree we are to know what God thinks of our sin. But it’s the direction of repenting that sounds suspect. Is he saying to stop sinning to be saved or believe the Gospel for the remission of sins? The confusion persists then with the short “Pray this simple prayer” following the message. Within the prayer it says – “I will serve You with all my heart.”
It is concerning since he is attending the Grace Conference with Ralph “Yankee” Arnold and Tom Cucuzza who present repentance differently. There are many other teachers and preachers attending this conference which I have not had a chance to look into further, but seeing this one so far raises questions for me.
Curtis M & Dino,
Dennis Rokser from Duluth Bible Church in Minnesota is also a good sound teacher. He was at the grace conference Quinton Road Bible Baptist Church.
“They love to point out the other wolves, but miss their own fangs are dripping with venom.”
– this made me choke on my bread roll. haha
“As Jack would say, “In Christ Eternally”… <3"
– this made me smile. thinking of him with all the saints upstairs. What an awesome thought.
Steven Anderson is hilarious, in a sad way. He is the poster boy for all that's wrong with the IFB KJVO "we're not a denomination, because we're independent!!" movement.
Whenever I need a good reminder as to why I left to IFB movement, I just youtube that guy. Only takes a few minutes to zone out.
“Nowadays I listen mostly to Yankee, Dr. Jim Scudder and Tom Cucuzza. Not only do they preach correct doctrine, but they preach in a gentle, authoritative and loving manner.”
me too Dino ,,
thanks for your testimony , there is very very few preachers I choose to listen too . I am careful to make sure best i can that they are square and true off “the Truth of the Gospel” before I listen.
It did not take long for me to know Dr. Phil Kidd is one I would choose to avoid. When you don’t find a clear gospel presentation on a ministries website or a doctrinal statement . Watch out . I also listen to a youtube message from dr kidd and chose to shut him down real quick .
also what is not said is just as bad as what is said when a ministries is not forth coming with a clear gospel presentation
Luke, what a sad position for him to take. Jesus paid it all.
Thank you Holly. I know what your saying and I do share the same sentiments about him. What I don’t like about him too is the fact that he plays “god” boldly preaching that this person goes to hell or that person goes to heaven.. Like he has foreknowledge like God does.
I don’t listen to him that much anymore like I used to when I was still hooked to IFB preachers like jack hyles, Nowadays I listen mostly to Yankee, Dr. Jim Scudder and Tom Cucuzza. Not only do they preach correct doctrine, but they preach in a gentle, authoritative and loving manner. They preach loud. but it’s unlike these IFB preachers who preach loud and somewhat with a somewhat judgmental spirit..
LS is indeed a worthless religion. I’m not saying that I am free and I can do anything I want. The Lordship of Christ is important. He is my Lord. But what my friends here in manila don’t get is that I didn’t “make” him my Lord upon salvation. their having a hard time dividing that line. They said making him Lord was not works and that they said since he is Lord of All, when you get saved, automatically he will become your Lord! I said.. “Yes he is Lord because that is his TITLE. Even if you don’t make him your Lord, he is Lord and will forever be Lord.” I recognized him for who he is when I got saved. I believed that he is God who died for my sins. I believe that. If I say I make him my Lord to be saved, the word “make” is already a connotation of works. I said yes he is still Lord when I got saved because he is the same yesterday, today and forever. But I have a choice if I want to obey his leading in my life or not after being saved. I SHOULD to obtain blessings in this life and in the next life to come and to also avoid the chastening hand of the Lord. But on the condition of Salvation, I don’t have to because it’s a done deal. That’s what I learned from Yankee. Keeping Salvation and Service separate.
One last thing. Does anyone here knows or listens to Dr. Phil Kidd? I know he is an Evangelist who doesn’t have a church. But sometimes, I get blessed on his Revival Preachings. He’s quite a strong preacher. I do know he is somewhat IFB. But maybe someone else here listens to him or might have something to say about him so that I can know if I should continue to listen to him or not. Thanks.
Curtis M… Yes, perfect assessment, railers and accusers of the brethren. They love to point out the other wolves, but miss their own fangs are dripping with venom.
Dino – Steven Anderson is here in town. Here is my opinion, which I’ll share a little more strongly than I did before. I think he is used of Satan to malign the way of truth. We don’t ‘hate’ homosexuals, we hate sexual immorality in believers, but we do not judge the world according to 1 Cor 5:12-13. We do judge within the church however, and this ‘pastor’ is a railer, one we are not to even keep company with. He is also of the KJVO cult, which is not KJV preferred, or does not mean he thinks the KJV is the best translation in English, what he thinks is God inspired the KJV only, and even the Greek and Hebrew ‘copies’ are suspect because they are just copies. They teach that the KJV is THE inspired Bible and has no errors at all. (They neglect to tell people of the grammatical and spelling errors that were corrected over time, if God inspired it and it is perfect (as they say) then there would have been no errors. Plus this would mean no one had the Word of God before the KJV 1611 (most are reading the 10th edition from the late 1700’s, not really the 1611).
He preached on how he hated the president and how he prayed and rallied others to pray for Obama to be assassinated. Evidently he hasn’t heard about praying for our enemies and loving them. He loves screaming and raging from the pulpit, and anyone who disagrees with him, he screams for them to “get the hell out of MY church”….
As you know he says anyone who teaches pre-tribulation rapture is a heretic. He is post trib rapture. We all deserve the ‘death penalty’, but Steven Anderson calls for the ‘death penalty’ of homosexuals (going back under the very law he says he thinks we are not under). He is doubleminded and unstable in all his ways. Where is his understanding of God’s love?
These ones that seem to get part of it right, yet malign the Word of God by their proud and obnoxious hate speech are probably more dangerous than the obvious people like Westboro Baptist. I think they do a good job of blaspheming the way of truth by their pride, their sowing of discord, their hatred for others, their inability to understand that God does really desire none should perish….
As Jack would say, “In Christ Eternally”… ❤
Re: Steven Anderson, yes he preaches eternal security, once saved always saved, but he does not believe homosexuals can be saved.
“We believe that the King James Bible is the word of God without error.”
When you see a quote like this in a doctrinal statement
Run Forest Run
it has been my experience that they go on to preach and teach some type of works for salvation , or works is evidence of salvation.
or are railers and accusers of the brethren and love to point out particular sin
Luke 8:12 is another great verse that literally crushes Lordship Salvation.
Luke 8:12 – Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should BELIEVE and be SAVED.
Luke 8:12 is no different from Acts 16:30 -31. This explains why Satan has that sense of desperate urgency in snatching the Word out of people’s hearts for fear that they may BELIEVE and be SAVED.
Dino, I will link some of the previous comments regarding Steve Anderson.
have anyone heard about the controversial pastor from faithful word baptist church? his name is Steven Anderson. He’s a really feisty preacher who hated homosexuals and wanted them dead, I heard him clash against paul washer, Jmac, Billy Graham and boldly calls them false prophets in his youtube channel. He said he can do it since in the bible, Paul and John was naming names of people who is teaching a different gospel.
He believes in the post trib rapture and he is not dispensational. But he is preaching eternal security. He preaches on Believe or trust alone and he also believes that a person can never lose his salvation no matter what that person does. I sometimes find it funny how he exposes people. Is there anyone here who gets blessed by his preachings? I listen to him sometimes.
Beholdason, the “local heresy club” could have introduced contradictions that your brother could not reconcile.
It wouldn’t hurt to ask him.
John wrote, “Alan, I think it would be unwise to assume that someone who claimed to not trust in Christ is saved. However, the Bible does say that people can believe only for a while. Such people are eternally secure believers, even if they stop believing. Like you said, you can never get rid of Him.”
My brother woke me up one morning some 15 years ago. It would have been around 1am. He’d done something really stupid and asked me tearfully how he could be saved. I told him the Gospel. He seemed to have believed it and started fellowshipping at a local heresy club. Unfortunately I was young in the faith and had no idea of what this place was teaching.
A year later a silly girl came along and got him caught up in all things sin and then he walked away from then on. He isn’t interested in God today.
I don’t know if he’s saved or not. I don’t know if he was trusting in Christ or not. I guess I could ask him. He doesn’t like talking about it.
Makes me sad.
Preston, your use of CAPS always makes me laugh. It’s very helpful reading your comments. Keep it up!
John John, when I think of God swearing by Himself, I always think of this verse too.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:16
Murray Atkin – Hi, greetings in the name of the Lord to you all.
Some versions put in italics ‘continue’ to believe, as in 1 John 5:13. But it’s not there. There are different types of pisteuo (faith). One can be unto eternal life, and one can be unto trusting Him in our walk. Sometimes we’re wobbly in our walk and therefore our confidence can be weakened through our hearts growing hard through the deceitfulness of sin. We need His Word to strengthen our shield of faith so those fiery darts of the enemy don’t slip by. His Word tells us we can know we have eternal life. His Word assures us that God does not lie about anything, and that includes the life He gives being eternal or everlasting (Titus 1:2, Heb 6:8) .
We also have to remember that once a person is eternally saved at the moment of faith/belief and possesses eternal life, that is NOT a license to sin. Christians who use grace as a license to sin won’t lose their salvation, but will incur God’s chastening as a wake up call to straighten up and fly right.
Romans 6:1-2 – What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:14-15 – For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Galatians 5:13 – For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
We as Free Grace Christians are always under attack and accused of “easy believism” or “cheap grace” by Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists and they wrongfully accuse us of using “grace as a license to sin”.
Grace is NOT a license to sin. We still sin after we’re saved whether intentionally or unintentionally. There is a difference between a Christian who still sins occasionally after salvation ( Romans 7:14-25, 1 John 1:8-10, 1 John 2:1) versus a Christian who is living in willful sin ( Hebrews 10:26-27, Proverbs 15:10, Proverbs 29:1, Jeremiah 2:19) Both are eternally saved. Christians who willfully sin will be chastened by God, but their eternal salvation remains intact and untouched – 1 Corinthians 3:15.
Amen John John!!
Eternal life is INSTANTANEOUS at the moment of belief/faith. For example, today is Tuesday January 20, 2015. If anyone believes/faith in Jesus and His finished work on the cross with His suffering, shed blood, death, and resurrection on this date, this person is INSTANTANEOUSLY SAVED today and is granted the free gift of eternal life for all eternity.
It can NEVER be lost no matter what happens to the believer, no matter what he/she does or does not do in this life – John 5:24, 6:47, 10:28-29, Romans 8:38-39.
The thief on the cross BELIEVED and the free gift of eternal life was granted to him INSTANTANEOUSLY for all eternity. Luke 23:42-43 – And he said unto Jesus,” Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said unto him, “Verily I say unto thee, TODAY shalt thou be with me in paradise”.
Notice Jesus did not say, “Sorry son, I can’t save you unless you commit, obey, persevere, get baptized, do good works to the very end, etc, BUT Jesus said, “TODAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.”
That was my first attempt here to use HTML, lol. Wasn’t perfect.
I know many stern types love to aim the warnings of Hebrews (etc.) at others (really, themselves) but how often is the stunning, glorious HOPE offered? The book is just full of strong encouragement and the warnings are, to me, CLEARLY the LORD’S discipline that we’re told to cherish:
“My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: ‘For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.'” (12:5-6)
The writer makes it clear he sees his audience as believers and that they ARE saved. And LOVED! God is not a double-dealer! We can know satan is present in any teaching that casts our Father in such a light!
Great points, Preston. Here’s a verse I keep being drawn to in hebrews that I believe just blows to bits any doubts about if God be for us eternally:”For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, “Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. ” And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein GOD, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.—Hebrews 6:13-20
Good day Murray,
Here ya go.
The bible says once one believes/trusts the gospel; they are sealed. This is important in relating to 2 Timothy as the writer uses the word “seal” in that passage…
– Eph 1:13 – In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise
– Eph 4:30 – And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption
– 2 Cor 1:21-22 – Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;22 Who HATH ALSO SEALED US, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts
LETS GO TO 2 TIMOTHY – note – Timothy is a letter written from Paul to Timothy so the “WE” is referring to BELIEVERS.
– 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Jesus CANT deny himself. We have seen, Jesus promised not to lose one and that nothing will pluck us out of His hand. Again, Jesus CANT deny himself. He can’t make promises He doesn’t intend to keep. Let us keep reading.
– 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
– 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and OVERTHROW the FAITH of some.
We see that some had their faith overthrown. This MEANS that they believed. Let’s go to the next verse. The first word is NEVERTHELESS. This is the key. The word “nevertheless” means “in spite of”. So some had their faith overthrown…NEVERTHELESS….or…..”in spite of this”….
– 19 NEVERTHELESS the foundation of God standeth sure, having THIS SEAL, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity
Did you catch it? They were STILL SEALED despite their faith being overthrown.
– read next verses to explain “depart from iniquity”. YES a believer should depart from iniquity. One reason is to build rewards of gold and silver and NOT wood hay and stubble; which will be burned at the Judgment Seat of Christ. (1 Cor 3:10-15).
– Heb 11:6 – But WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him
2 Timothy SUMMARY – these people whose faith were overthrown were producing NOTHING. Their faith was gone!!! They had no more faith THUS it is impossible to please God (produce). Were they saved? YES – NEVERTHELESS, having THIS SEAL, the Lord knoweth them that are HIS.
Also, I think John has an eternal security paper somewhere on this site. If not, I have one.
Murray, welcome and thanks for your question.
We do not have to continue to believe in order to keep eternal life. Once someone believes in Jesus as his Savior, he has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
William, that is a great verse that clearly shows that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
John 3:16 ….whosoever believeth on him has everlasting life; does this mean that we must continue to believe?
This one verse in Luke 7:50 absolutely refutes Lordship Salvation and any works based gospel.
Luke 7:50 – And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath SAVED thee; go in peace.
Notice Jesus did not say, “Thy faith and works saved thee.”
Alan, I think it would be unwise to assume that someone who claimed to not trust in Christ is saved. However, the Bible does say that people can believe only for a while. Such people are eternally secure believers, even if they stop believing. Like you said, you can never get rid of Him.
John, once you receive Christ as Savior by simple, childlike faith you can never get rid of Him. The couple you mentioned may have once believed the tenets of some counterfeit version of Christianity, but there is no way they could have believed in a Savior who saves us by His grace and redeems us by His blood.
It is also important to keep in mind that many people who claim to be atheists or agnostics really aren’t. Instead, they are people who have become hurt and embittered against God because of certain tragedies that they have endured. Even John the Baptist succumbed to bitterness over his predicament when He asked, “Art thou He who should come, or do we look for another?”(Matthew 11:3). Clearly, John the Baptist knew that Jesus was the Messiah, for the Holy Spirit had already revealed this to him (John 1:32-36). Thankfully, the Lord understands our weaknesses and bestows on us more of His grace.
Can’t agree more. It won’t take long to encounter all six if you’ve been to more than a few evangelical / revival meetings.
Joel, you said: Because of the hyper fundamentalism that is often paired with LS and Calvinism it isn’t unusual to see many who were raised in this tradition to reject it outright. In other words they throw out the baby (Jesus) with the bathwater.
My comment: Whenever I hear someone say they “used to be a Christian”, I always wonder if they ever believed. Of course, we know from scripture that it is possible for a believer to only believe for a while (Luke 8:13). If someone believes in Jesus and is exposed to LS/Calvinist teaching, the apparent contradictions may cause him to reject the Bible altogether.
However, others never believed in the first place. They placed their faith in false gospels and thus do not have eternal life.
The following excerpt from the doctrinal statement of Clear Gospel Ministries discusses the dangers of false gospel substitutes:
We believe that there are at least six grave dangers set before the church in the use of these, and similar contemporary gospel substitutes and popular aphorisms:
1. Even when presented fully and accurately, the gospel is camouflaged by such nonsense, thereby hindering the effectiveness of the gospel message from illuminating the way of salvation to those who know not Christ.
2. Oftentimes, essential elements of the gospel message are excised entirely from the message of the evangelist in order to make room for the addition of more nonsensical aphorisms, thereby robbing such messages of any capacity for imparting a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
3. The gospel is often contradicted by works-oriented invitations such as requiring an unbeliever to “make a personal commitment to Jesus Christ,” which is, in its essence, a requirement of a promise future works in exchange for salvation.
4. By such silly aphorisms, the unregenerate are given a false assurance of salvation through a meaningless profession of faith, thereby discouraging further inquiry into the most important question in the universe.
5. Those unregenerate who subsequently lapse from their confused “profession of faith” are more likely to become hardened to the gospel, having seen the emptiness and worthlessness of what they understood to be biblical true Christianity.
6. The true believer who is not firmly grounded in the clarity of the gospel is likely to redefine his understanding of the gospel message according to how he hears it repeatedly presented, thereby perpetuating and multiplying this confusion, and crippling successive generations of evangelists.
Sounds like a pretty common objection that we hear today. The best question to ask someone like this is, “What do you mean by that?”
What do you mean, “use to be a Christian?” Or, what do you mean by, “literalist?”
Because of the hyper fundamentalism that is often paired with LS and Calvinism it isn’t unusual to see many who were raised in this tradition to reject it outright. In other words they throw out the baby (Jesus) with the bathwater.
Combine this with the rapid rise in postmodern thinking, moral relativism and scientism, and it’s no wonder we have many doing so. Sure, we can beat them to a pulp with sin, but Christ also came to answer those life questions, such as “what is truth?” (John 14:6). And, “What is the meaning of life?” John 10:10. The Holy Spirit came to convict of sin, and anyone (such as this person) who seeks to be a “good” person has a conscience that God can prick to see that they most certainly are not. Or, at least start a dialogue that ‘good’ has no meaning apart from the God of the Bible.