Lordship Salvation: Following the MENyouscript

By johninnc

John 18:34: Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

As believers in Christ, we are stewards of the gospel message. We are called to proclaim the gospel, and to defend it against it against a seemingly endless supply of substitutes.

One of the bigger challenges we face in defending the gospel is the reliance people seem to place on error being taught by so called “experts” in theology, “giants of the faith,” “princes of preachers,” “great men of God,” and so on.

Following are some examples I have gleaned from the ExPreacherman archives of people following man’s “wisdom” versus the Word of God. These examples are from laypeople who are arguing against salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, and from well-known religious leaders of the past and present.

Please note that I have not researched all of the names mentioned. However, many of the quotes below contain at least one name of someone that I know to have taught horrific errors that are an affront to the gospel message, such as Calvinism, Lordship “salvation,” or Arminianism. And, all of the quotes demonstrate an over reliance on the teaching of men versus the teaching of God.

  1. I believe that you sincerely believe, to some degree, in the error you propagate. It just happens, brothers, that you are wrong. I refer you to more prominent and well-respected men than all of us here to prove it. I care little about L.S. as a term. Research how we are saved, according to respected men like Alistair Begg, R.C. Sproul, A.W. Pink, Spurgeon, James White (AP, commenter at ExPreacherman)
  1. I have found spiritual gold in many different places throughout my life. Outside of my dear parents and Leslie’s parents, there are twenty-six greats (from the past two centuries) that have most influenced my Christian thinking and living in our modern times. And since their thoughts are found speckled throughout these notes, I wish to honor them here, as a reminder to all the students gleaning wisdom from this training, that the strongest Christian leaders are but a consecrated quotation of the giants of faith that have proceeded him – C.T. Studd, Hudson Taylor, George Muller, Rees Howells, AW Tozer, William Booth, Amy Carmichal, Richard Wurmbrand, Leonard Ravenhill, Paris Reidhead, Corrie Ten Boom, George Whitefield, John Wesley, David Brainerd, Charles Spurgeon, EM Bounds, John Hyde, Jim and Elizabeth Elliot, Keith Green, Jackie Pullinger, DL Moody, Major Ian Thomas, Gladys Aylward, David Wilkerson, and Oswald Chambers. I dearly desire my life to be a quotation of such an audacious band of mighties. (Eric Ludy)
  1. To Tim Keller, whose thinking has so permeated my own that I can no longer really tell where his stops and mine starts. I am heavily indebted to him for many of the ideas in this book, particularly in chapters 2, 3, and 6. I have listened to and read Tim Keller so much that I tend to plagiarize his interpretation of a passage before I even hear him teach on that passage. (Pastor J.D. Greear)
  1. I would quote John Bunyan as an instance of what I mean. Read anything of his, and you will see that it is almost like the reading the Bible itself. He had read it till his very soul was saturated with Scripture; and, though his writings are charmingly full of poetry, yet he cannot give us his Pilgrim’s Progress — that sweetest of all prose poems — without continually making us feel and say, “Why, this man is a living Bible!” Prick him anywhere — his blood is Bibline, the very essence of the Bible flows from him. He cannot speak without quoting a text, for his very soul is full of the Word of God. I commend his example to you, beloved. (Charles Spurgeon)
  1. Although I don’t agree with the heresy of Lordship Salvation, I don’t agree with you either. I have been a fan of Stewart’s website and I’m so sure that he does NOT teach the crap of Lordship Salvation. Stewart is right, stop falsely accusing him. Stewart is saying that forsaking one’s sin is NOT the prerequisites of salvation, but the fruits of salvation. We don’t forsake our sins in order to be saved, indeed we forsake our sins because we ARE saved! (DQ689, commenter at ExPreacherman)

Each of the above commenters, authors, or preachers is purporting to be representing the Word of God in his comments and “shout outs” to his sources of inspiration. But, those sources are not the inspired Word of God. They are “MENyouscripts.”

I will close by saying that there is not a problem with quoting preachers or others when teaching the Word of God. It becomes problematic when those quotes are based on something not taught in scripture. And, quoting someone who distorts the gospel message can serve to frustrate grace. Let us all be reminded to be cautious when quoting others, particularly when those quotes are not supported by scripture or if we know the person we are quoting has been complicit in corrupting the gospel message.

Galatians 2:21: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

If you would like to know how to have eternal life, click here: THE GOSPEL







132 responses to “Lordship Salvation: Following the MENyouscript

  1. Matthew 15:14King James Version (KJV)
    14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

  2. John 18:34: Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

    My favorite of many passages of scripture a whole sermon could be drawn out from.
    would like to say even in our USA court system “hear say” is not allowed in a court of Law .
    also there are Teachers who may have started out in The Clear Gospel of Grace but who wandered off into Works as evidence of salvation. Another reason to be careful of quoting from others should even be careful to quote others who have died in Christ because we could wonder off into false doctrine if we do not continue to separate unto Truth in our thinking.

  3. Curtis, your frequent use of this passage came to mind as I was putting this article together.

  4. Thank you for this post!
    The Pilgrims Progress…. that is a book on my list of “I wish I had never read that!”
    I am so thankful each day that I have came to realization that my focus should never have been on these supposed great men of the faith.
    I know I had the tendency to fall for that old lie that these men are so learned and studied in the faith that they must surely have a better understanding than me. Even though I absolutely knew a person is saved by faith through grace, these writers over time confused my thinking on how to live as a believer, they always seemed to place the focus on sin, works and self-effort rather than living in Christ and victory.
    And important message to keep putting out there for those that have fallen in that hole.

  5. Angela, agree – Pilgrim’s Progress, and its author, appeared to have had a great influence on Charles Spurgeon, who became the consummate Lordship “salvationist.”

  6. i got curious after hearing about Pilgrims Progress from here at expreacherman and a preachers recent message referenceing the book that i watched a video book version on YouTube until the spirit of fear started getting a grip on me so i shut it down but still disrupted my sleep with weird dreams for a time..
    I don’t understand what the attraction is to Pilgrims Progress it is hailed as 17th century literature work of art. That was a different culture at the time for sure.

    God has not given us the spirit of fear but of power love and sound mind.

  7. Reading the quote of DQ689, I can’t help but wonder if he or she was thinking in the context of motivation as opposed to action itself. Certainly the motivation for forsaking sin is different for any person resting in the shed blood of Christ for their salvation than it is for someone trying to receive and/or keep or “validate” their “salvation” by “repenting of sin”. BUT

    It’s a subtle trap to believe that turning from sin is “inevitable” (I don’t say “automatic”) for someone who is saved (indwelt by the Spirit of God). I used to believe such myself. It seems so intuitive. The problem is, such a view leaves out the “flesh” which still indwells the unredeemed body of every living believer. More importantly, it also sets up a de-facto standard of behavior needed to validate a person’s faith; an undefined standard which must be fulfilled sooner or later and ultimately never is, since the “standard” can never be defined clearly. The effect is the same as more blatant forms of legalism: either self-righteousness or despair.

  8. Chas, it is magnanimous of you to give the commenter the benefit of the doubt. The point of my including an excerpt from his comment in the article was to show his devotion to a teacher – one who we had rightly called out for teaching error that is an affront to the gospel.

    The rest of his comment was: If someone claims to be born again, but still continue to live in sins, that means he probably has not truly been saved. The reason why these people are not saved is NOT because they don’t forsake their sins, instead it’s because they are not saved so they don’t forsake their sins.

    My comment: This is Lordship “salvation” 101.

  9. Chas said:
    “More importantly, it also sets up a de-facto standard of behavior needed to validate a person’s faith; an undefined standard which must be fulfilled sooner or later and ultimately never is, since the “standard” can never be defined clearly. The effect is the same as more blatant forms of legalism: either self-righteousness or despair.”

    That is an excellent point. I’ve never met an LS’r (including my former self) that didn’t think THEY were meeting the “standard.” The standard becomes themselves, as they all admit to “not being perfect.” When pressed on the matter, the standard response, “Sure I sin, but you don’t understand the difference between sin and a lifestyle of sinning.” I guess this means I can murder, steal and commit adultery every once in a while, as long as it isn’t a “lifestyle.”

  10. Sad to see people follow blindly after men just because they are more well known and give emotional speeches. Funny Paul said that he did not come with excellency of speech, but Christ and him crucified. Now I have learned alot from men, however I always have studied what they said for myself and see if it is what the scripture says.

  11. 26And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
    Luke 18:27

    26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? 27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
    Mark 10:26-27

    Interesting … when one goes to some sites, they really sound like Salvation by Grace alone site, but when you read further, they just end up a hybrid of Lordship Salvation and Free Grace …. even CARM (carm.org) starts out well but eventually it becomes a works ‘evidence’ program of salvation. The scriptures above lay it out plainly … salvation by Grace alone through faith alone, in Jesus Christ (GOD) alone.

    It is fearful to see how the fallen nature of man still persists in claiming to have to ‘do something’ to prove whether one is damned or saved. Blessed assurance with ‘perfect submission’ ? ………… p e r f e c t ?

    Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
    Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
    Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
    Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.
    This is my story, this is my song,
    Praising my Savior all the day long;
    This is my story, this is my song,
    Praising my Savior all the day long.
    Perfect submission, perfect delight,
    Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
    Angels, descending, bring from above
    Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.
    Perfect submission, all is at rest,
    I in my Savior am happy and blest,
    Watching and waiting, looking above,
    Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.

    It’s even in the hymns, Sunday after Sunday. Which believer can sing this and have ‘perfect’ assurance? (smile)

  12. You can have perfect assurance if you are properly submitted. Faith, itself, is way of submitting oneself to the truth. I don’t think Ms. Crosby was necessarily promoting a submission to works or performance.

  13. See Romans 10:3 – submission to God’s righteousness, in this context, would entail relying on Christ alone for eternal life.

  14. Spurgeon on ‘assurance’. Does this in the end sound like Lordship Salvation mixed with Saving Grace?

    (Link removed by administrator)

  15. Spurgeon was a false teacher, Calvinist, and Lordship Salvationist. There is no question.

  16. Spurgeon said there was no such thing as preaching the gospel unless you preached Calvinism because Calvinism was the gospel (false).

    As for ‘letting alone’ the blind leaders, that was in the context of whether or not they were offended by His sayings, it did not address whether or not we ‘mark and avoid’ those who bring a doctrine contrary to the one we learned (Rom 16:17), or testing the spirits (1 Jn 4:1-3), or proving all things (1 Thess 5:21) or searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so (Acts 17:11). It does not suggest we ignore them 🙂

  17. Spurgeon says to know we are saved that “we will not habitually commit sin.” He wrongly cites 1 John 3:9 (which should say ‘do’ or ‘commit’ vs. ‘practice’ sin). He also cites Rom 6:2. This is all to prove we are born again.

    He secondly says that believers “will seek to live a holy life by obeying God’s Word.”

    We should most definitely obey His Word, but that is what the epistles are for to encourage believers to continue in His Word. It is not automatic.

    He says we WILL love others no matter what, but we SHOULD do so, but again, we have 1 John as just one of the examples that speak to believers about what we SHOULD do as well as many others.

    He also says, “our affections will not be set upon the things of the world. Well, our affections should NOT be, but believers are again admonished NOT to let this happen as it WAS happening. Even Demas who was identified as a worker in the gospel did love the world and go back to it, but he was a believer. Obviously, he was not abiding in the love of God.

    He also uses Romans 8:5, 9 to suggest that those who mind the things of the flesh are not believers, but actually 9 says that we are not in the flesh if we have His Spirit dwelling in us. And we know from Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 12:13, Eph 4:4-6 that we have His Spirit indwelling us the moment we believe.

    Spurgeon says, “these changes are the evidence that we truly have been born again. If they are not evident in our life, it is likely we have not savingly believed in Christ.

    There is more, but that gives you the gist of Spurgeon’s backdoor load-ship although he is front, top and a backloader of the gospel.

  18. I really don’t see anything LS or legalistic or works requirements in Fanny Crosby’s lyrics to “Blessed Assurance.” The song speaks of having Jesus as her Savior and being an heir of salvation who is born of the Spirit because she is a purchase of God thanks to being washed in his blood thru HIS perfect submission, not her’s.
    The song is all about what Jesus has done for her, not about what she has done. And the rest of the song is an expression of joy in all that Christ has done for her.

  19. Phil, agree. My wife and I were discussing that just last night.

  20. Blessed assurance IF you have PERFECT submission. No blessed assurance when you don’t have perfect submission. How many Christians submit to the ‘Lordship’ of Christ perfectly? (smile)

  21. Re ” As for ‘letting alone’ the blind leaders, that was in the context of whether or not they were offended by His sayings, it did not address whether or not we ‘mark and avoid’ those who bring a doctrine contrary to the one we learned (Rom 16:17), or testing the spirits (1 Jn 4:1-3), or proving all things (1 Thess 5:21) or searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so (Acts 17:11). It does not suggest we ignore them

    Yes, quite obvious … nevertheless, it can be extended to other blind leaders … proponents of Lordship Salvation … which is just what the Pharisees actually were and actually still are.”

  22. No one submits to the Lordship of Christ perfectly. But, I think Phil’s point was that Christ was perfect in His submission.

  23. Anon, forgive me for not quite understanding whether you are saying let them alone means we don’t expose their false teaching? Could you clarify? Thanks, Holly

  24. Hi Holly … we should expose them for their false teaching :

    Ephesians 5:11
    English Standard Version
    Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
    King James Bible
    And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    But after continually exposing them, how many have changed? John MacArthur, Ray Comfort, SO4J, Paul Washer etc etc. Then it’s time to move on. They are truly blind to Free Grace as taught in the Word of God. . As Jesus demonstrated during a meeting with Lordship and Works Salvationists ……..:
    John 9: 35-41
    35Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 36He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. 39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

    Jer. 5:21 (King James version): “Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not.”

    “There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know. The proverb has been traced back in English to 1546 (John Heywood),

    Hence : Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. Matthew 15:34

    If one believes that salvation is by works, what does that say about who they really believe Jesus is? They call Him, Lord and they do many works … wonderful works actually …. before, during and after their salvation. So what does one expect their Lord to say to them? ……

    22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?’ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.. Matthew 7: 22,23

  25. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6

    ” No one submits to the Lordship of Christ perfectly. But, I think Phil’s point was that Christ was perfect in His submission. ”

    Yes ….. that is why His righteousness is imputed to us forever when we are saved via Free Grace. We can add nothing to His righteousness ever.
    But, perfect submission will occur amongst believers in Heaven after the rapture of the eclessia. Not now in these corruptible vessels … but later before Him.

    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

    Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2

  26. actually in the light of romans chapters 5, 6,7,8 We as believer souls in/on Christ Jesus we already have a perfect postion in Christ Jesus fully Justified and Sanctified . Being seated with Him.
    the appeal to living the Christian life is to rest in that perfect position in spite of ourselves.
    Now in the light of that position will we allow The Holy Spirit to control us?
    it is only reasonable to do so romans 12:1-2
    by enjoying The Lord Jesus through God’s Word

  27. johninnc…
    Thanks for the clarification. It seems, given the complete content of DQ689’s statement, my “magnanimous” theory about DQ689’s intent is blown out of the water! Wouldn’t be the first time I gave somebody too much credit. Funny thing is, whenever I try to warn somebody I know who’s following this or that false teacher, I’m accused of being a “heresy hunter”, “impossible to please”, etc. What’re ya gonna do?

  28. Chas, I know what you mean. I’ve been accused of making salvation too easy – and making it too hard. And, both accusations are based on the same message.

  29. Anon – thanks for clarifying. I do believe we should expose them and we are doing it for the purpose of both believers and non believers who may be sitting under them. I don’t spend much time on the same person, but there are times I will expose again. I think on Paul saying what he did he would continue to do in order to cut off their opportunity to deceive others into thinking they are ‘apostles’ or like the apostles. New people all the time are reading new articles and finding out things they did not know, and some are being led out of error. Others who will not hear, you do your best and let them alone. Although I still take into account 1 Tim 2:1-6 in those cases.

  30. I just got done with a conversation with a woman very much caught up in “Jesus love” to the point of making Him one dimensional. She was very concerned with being judged by others and I tried to point out that she was not being judged but rather her unusual take on scripture (only Jesus’ words are authoritative) is what is being challenged. I answered her objections to Paul but concentrated on the teaching of Jesus (all she was open to). I showed that Jesus warned of false teaching etc. but she could really twist passages to fit her sensual concept of Christ.

    As I stressed to her that I was not judging her standing before God but only her spiritual discernment along comes a Calvy to judge her to hell as “never truly saved” quoting 1 Tim 4:1-2. I asked this Calvy how this woman could depart from the faith if she had never been in the faith. What I got was pages of menyouscripts about real faith vs. false faith; head faith vs. heart faith etc.

    You see, these menyouscripts explained to me that Paul was speaking of “verbal confessors”. He may have called them the flock but he didn’t mean it. Paul was telling believers to beware of something that cannot possibly happen to them or else he is saying that unbelievers are going to “unbelieve” more.

    Two people: One no authority to scripture just Christ’s “love”. The other, heavy reliance on menyouscripts to the point of obscuring the obvious (can’t depart from where you have never been). If I had hair I would have no more hair. That’s where logic takes me after these kind of conversations. .

  31. RAS, it is frustrating to see so much competing error out there.

  32. Thankful to The Lord RAS that through the Clear Gospel of grace you /we are able to spot /dicern and Trust God to do the rest.
    the deeper and deeper a soul like the woman woman you talked too and wonders off into gnosticsm the stranger the doctrines get

  33. An interesting sermon by Pastor Charles Lawson :
    check this out on youtube entitled: (won’t leave a URL) but you can find it ….
    New Birth, Clean Conscience (Pastor Charles Lawson)
    The Pastor mentions that ‘repentance’ takes place after salvation and is ongoing as a process of sanctification right up until the rapture of the believer in Christ.
    Maranatha and God bless you

  34. RAS, I’ve always thought it is really strange for someone to believe that only Jesus’ words in scripture are authoritative. After all, if one cannot trust the rest of scripture as authoritative, why would they think that the authors would have reliably captured Jesus’ words.

  35. John, She was spouting total nonsense but I wanted to draw her out. I heard nothing from her to convince me she ever believed the Gospel so staying in the Gospel books was great. Curits nailed it she was Gnostic.

  36. Let me say one more thing about this conversation I am having. Nonsense abounds on both fronts. I have a softer heart for the confused Gnostic woman then I do for the LSers who are claiming scripture as authority yet relying on menyouscripts to exegete. I have been given no reason to believe that the Gnostic has ever believed in the Christ of scripture and she will not claim scripture as authoritative. The LSers do, yet deny so much of what it says. So many contradictions! Proof text to proof text, to theologian as authority to bottom line “show the fruit”…

    I have been in many of these conversations and am still discovering new ways Lsers use equivocation to bolster their theology. Simon of Acts 8 came up and “your money perish with you” was turned to “you are going to hell”. “You have neither part nor portion in this matter” became “You have no part in God’s grace”, “bound by iniquity” became “still in bondage to sin” (two different words for bound).

    I pointed to 1 Corinthians 8:11 “And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?”— I asked how a brother could perish and not go to hell yet Simon must?

    “Brother is not equal to believer.”

    Yet Christ died for him? How does that square with limited atonement?

    “Christ died differently for him”

    TULIP was upheld at all cost. I tell this story because I get so discouraged in a rigged “game” (it’s not a game). I get discouraged but never tempted to accept the equivocation. I tell this story because there are few who understand why we “make a deal of it”.

  37. RAS, the “show the fruit” crowd can’t possibly explain why their behavior is less than perfect.

    They are always grading on a curve – either relative to other people, or relative to themselves, before they started showing all of the “fruit.”

  38. RAS – I have had interesting conversations with Calvinists, especially the Calvinists who are Baptists. I’ve been called names and told to shut my trap and all sorts of other things I’ve shared with you all here.

    Today my friend was sharing (over the phone) how she and her mom tried a new church last week, (small) but she asked an elder about the tracts they were using since it used ‘repent from sin’. He told her that she was arrogant and holier than thou. Her 90 year old mom said my friend was very humble in her approach, she even asked him if he really believed that about her, and he said he did. She thanked him for his honesty and sat down. After the service this elder also brought the pastor with him so that they could tell her how wrong she was. When she asked if she could show him some Scripture, he said no. He’d say one thing, she’d answer with the Word, he said he didn’t want to hear it.

    They saw the pastor and elder go back down the aisle laughing together, holding up the tract saying ‘as if Billy Graham would get it wrong’…

    She shared with me the hurt she felt, because she’d never had a pastor treat her that way. It’s a good thing, but I know it doesn’t feel good when you are in the midst of it.

    We have also suffered because of hyperdispensationalism and some of the comments from the crowd there can be just as vicious. They too (not all) see repent as meaning repenting from sin, and that’s why they think it’s ‘just for Israel’ and repentance is ‘not for the church’. A woman told me a couple of days ago (when answering her from Scripture about why we were of the same body (Jews and Gentile believers), she said I was a non believer and I didn’t believe the Bible and was blinded. Then proceeded to block me, either that or erased the conversation. So I am seeing common ground with these doctrines and their followers as well as their leaders. I can think of a number of ‘pastors’ who are out there being abusive with those they consider ‘non believers’. Quite interesting considering they think they have the remedy but never use it, instead they are little mini accusers of the brethren. Little mini me’s to Satan, accusing brethren and giving the lost a false gospel. Tragic.

  39. Johninnc – the ‘show the fruit’ crowd really struck a cord with me for a number of reasons. The ‘church ladies’ in my past that knew I was never going to live up to their ‘show the fruit’ meter — so thankful the Lord showed me He was the one who was righteous, not anything of myself.

    But I’m seeing something scary in this hyperdispensationalist crowd, there is a ‘you haven’t arrived’ mentality, they use terms like, ‘you don’t know how to rightly divide Scripture’, or ‘you just haven’t come to an understanding of Scripture yet’. If you don’t do as they do regarding not celebrating Christmas, or not drinking wine, or not doing anything that they have named pagan, then you are not ‘in fellowship with them because you are walking in the flesh’ (from the recent teacher’s site).

    If they find that there proof texts don’t convince you, then they may say that you aren’t teachable, or that you have a Jezebel spirit (this seems to be a favorite lately). This last pastor who broke up a local fellowship says we are not in the New Covenant, that we were only forgiven for past sins, etc..

    They love to cite that certain things have not transpired in the New Covenant, and that it was made with the House of Israel and the house of Judah. Therefore, it couldn’t be that the Gentiles are part of the New Covenant, and the New Covenant couldn’t have commenced (even though dedicated with His blood under the cross, and even though Paul said they were able ministers of the New Covenant/Testament).

    Never mind what Peter said (under the inspiration of the Spirit) regarding what was happening on Pentecost, was what the prophet Joel had spoken about (Joel 2/Acts 2). Obviously we know that certain things in this prophecy have not transpired, just as Jesus who in Luke 4 read Isaiah 61:1-2a, and yet he stopped there in the middle, saying these things had been fulfilled in their presence. However we know there is a future fulfillment in the Day of the Lord. We also know there is more to be fulfilled from Joel’s prophecy. We also know the Jews only saw one coming in prophecy but there is two, at a future time.

    But the attitude of all of these is one of being puffed up against other people, thinking of men beyond what is written, willing to defend men over God’s Word. Willing to attack other believers (if they are one) instead of being humbled under His mighty hand and to each other.

    I am so saddened seeing what we knew and were told would happen in these last days, not surprised, just grieved. Many deceivers, many deceived. Families turning against each other, husbands against their wives, sisters and brothers not talking, divorces, abuse, etc. This country is a good example of the mayhem the enemy loves to create and it’s only going to get much worse.

    The prophets prophesy lies and the people love to have it so. Hollywood puts on a movie like ‘The Shack’, churches do ‘studies’ on the book ‘the Shack’ because they love to tickle their itching ears. I keep praying for them, I have compassion for them, even and most especially the really angry, bitter and hateful abusers, because if they do not know the Lord, 2 Thess 1:6-10 always comes to mind as what they are facing also imminently.

  40. Holly, I know that scripture unequivocally teaches salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, and I know that fruit inspection is worthless in terms of determining whether or not one has eternal life.

    However, for those who are bent on examining evidence of eternal life based on fruit inspection, I always come back to the same thing: is your life PERFECT? If not, then what, short of perfect, is acceptable for evidence of eternal life?

    Regarding hyperdispensationalists, we get them here from time-to-time, but often quickly cut them off, because they can be divisive, condescending, and in many cases, they are just wrong.

  41. katmazdobelieve

    Yesterday my mother called. She was fishing for me to attend a Christian concert at the AoG in my small town.
    Earlier in the day Ken Ham posted a status which read, “Why are we dealing with the gay “marriage” issue? “God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity…because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie” (Romans 1:24).”
    My mother begins to quiz me about the post. “Does Ken Ham not believe that a gay can be saved?” I said that he is a LSer and domionist and he is getting worse especially associating with the likes of Ray Discomfort.
    She tells me that isn’t true, that all they have to do is repent of their SIN and then they can be saved.
    It’s indicative of the state the “body” is in within churchanity.

  42. Kate, I agree that Ken Ham is LS. If anyone has to give up sins to be saved, then everyone does. That would mean everyone is saved by grace plus works, which we know is false.

  43. “Mini accusers of the brethren” is exactly right Holly. And they can’t see that telling a struggling brother or sister that they “never ‘really’ believed” does not point them back to Christ but only father into “do I really believe this time”. Show them passage after passage where believers can and do fail, give them example after example showing that one cannot believe something to be true if they “really” think it is false. Then when the text fails to verify their dogma they accuse you of “lacking understanding from God, as He has given to me”. It really gets quite mystical and can’t be verified.
    Nipping at the heels is not leading or feeding the sheep. But that’s how they see God drawing, by overwhelming sovereign force.

  44. John, thank you, the condescending part is something I have dealt with often from them, probably the best word to describe it. I had one come to my site to comment, stating he had read my comment over here. I told him I’d answer him once, because my experience with most has been very similar to Calvinists, in that they won’t address that all the apostles preached the same gospel, and it is stated so in the chapters they often use to prove differently. They (in my experience) have not been willing to acknowledge those Scriptures and it usually ends up badly unfortunately. The pastor that split up the fellowship here locally would not acknowledge that there is such a think as partial fulfillment and future fulfillment.

  45. Holly, I’m confused. You say that Calvinist claim that there is more than one Gospel?

  46. The Hyper Dispensationalist Joel . also called Mid Acts Dispensationalist
    its just another System of Faith, System of Thought

  47. Joel, thanks for asking, no, what I meant is they use proof texts and they won’t address the Scriptures that clarify other Scriptures, they just flat out ignore them. In that regard it reminds me of some I have dealt with that are mid to latter Acts dispensationalists. Either that or they answer the Scripture with another question.

  48. Curtis, im aware of the mid acts. I was confused by how Calvinism was mentioned in conjunction with this, Calvinist are most likely some form of preterism. Holly explained.

    I didn’t realize there were mid acts dispensationalists who were resorting to these tactics to defend their view. Not sure how a mid Acts view and a particular definition of “repent” correlate.

  49. I have been taught in the past that one of the ‘marks of true believer’ based on 1 John is that his/her lifestyle will be marked by ‘more obedience than disobedience’.
    That is a very subjective statement: who is to decide if my obedience is ‘more’ than my disobedience? What about all the sins I have committed in my ignorance and not even realised what I said/did/thought was wrong in God’s eyes? What about the ‘good’ that I knew to do and failed to do it, sins of omission? James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
    Once again it is another attempt to look at my performance in order to give me assurance of salvation rather than looking to Christ and His finished work on the cross alone. Satan’s attempt to get my eyes off of the Lord Jesus Christ and ‘examine myself if I am in the faith’ using Bible verses mishandled and misunderstood to cause me to doubt my salvation.

  50. ALice, I agree. Anything that teaches that we should look to ourselves, rather than to Jesus, for evidence of righteousness is false teaching.

  51. Yes. It also shows a complete misunderstanding of the Free Grace Gospel Message, which can only really mean one thing?
    The person is deceived and is believing in ‘ another Jesus ‘ ? Are they just a ‘christian’ “gone wrong” , misunderstanding a peripheral issue which has nothing to do with their salvation? …. or will they miss the rapture, enter the Great Tribulation and not be beheaded by antichrist … and end up in the Lake of Fire? Is their ‘salvation’ an issue here? If Jesus Christ and Paul the Apostle preached Free Grace …. then …. :

    7which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse! 9As we have said before, so now I say AGAIN If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you embraced, let him be under a divine curse!… Galatians 1:7-9

    4For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily. 5I consider myself in no way inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6Although I am not a polished speaker, I am certainly not lacking in knowledge. We have made this clear to you in every way possible.…
    2 Corinthians 11:4-6

    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.  For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.  John 1:14

  52. No performances of any works ever saved or ever will save … ever.

    “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” —Romans 4:5

            The Word of God proclaims that eternal life is obtained minus good works, i.e., works of self-righteousness. This Scripture refutes Lordship Salvation. This Scripture refutes some Pentecostals, who teach that salvation can be lost if we do bad works.  Jesus clearly stated in John 6:37, “…him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

    What a wonderful statement… BUT TO HIM THAT WORKETH NOT!
     So … are there actually many imposters today behind America’s pulpits, like John MacArthur, deceitfully teaching lost sinners that works must accompany faith ? Or is he, Paul Washer, Martha Mac (of SO4J) and Raymond Comfort correct? In John MacArthur states that obedience is ‘an integral part of saving faith.’ Indeed, obedience is bound up in the very ‘definition of faith’ being a ‘constitutive element in what it means to believe.’ 
    MacArthur is in e r r o r . He needs to believe Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 4:5 Faith alone in Jesus alone via Grace alone equals His imputed righteousness. This constitutes His Holiness which is also imputed …. and without this Holiness without works ? ……..
    Hebrews 12:14King James Version (KJV)
    14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

    Maranatha Lord

  53. Joel, the definition for repentance for Mid-Acts would matter as follows: They usually say repentance is only for the Jews. So if we understand repentance to = a change of mind/thinking differently, then how is that not meant for the Gentiles? Therefore, I can only conclude their definition for repentance may not be the same as mine 🙂 Hope that helps explain.

  54. Anon – JMac emphasizes the fact he believes it is not of works, then proceeds to give a list of works. People will often defend him by stating he does not add works to the gospel because he says he does not, but they do not examine what he actually says.

  55. Dear Brothers and Sisters in the Faith,

    Please pray for me and my family. We’ve been experiencing relentless attack from Satan that has been bombarding us for the past several weeks. It happens when I’m up on YouTube engaging in debates with people where I expose and refute Calvinism/Lordship Salvation. I recently made some posts (not video, but comments) where I reveal where each point of the Calvinistic “TULIP” originated from, that is, from the false teachings of Augustine from his heretical writings entitled, “City of God” which has spread to many of the “confessions of faith” which comprise of the whole system of Calvinism.

    I have been posting comments that show that Calvinism is basically Augustinianism refined by John Calvin and that these false teachings have spread like a malignant cancer within mainstream Christianity. I noticed that my posts have stirred up anger among staunch Calvinist viewers on YouTube. All of them accuse me of being a “liar”, “heretic”, “hater of God”, “promoter of a man centered gospel”, “unsaved reprobate”, etc, etc.

    Satan has been attacking us in these ways:

    1) Our next door neighbors have become our enemies spreading gossip.
    2) My wife has been suffering from chronic insomnia. She only gets only a couple of hours of sleep every night. She has become discouraged and has fallen from the faith.
    3) My son’s divorce is lagging on as his ex-wife is making all kinds of false accusations and lies against us and him. It turned out that she was a false believer as she rejects what we believe in which is faith alone in Christ alone apart from works. In reality, she was a blatant liar and a con artist. A court trial seems imminent.
    4) My son’s co-worker has been bullying him in the workplace which has resulted in loss of work hours.
    5) My co-worker has become my enemy as she has been trying to pass her work responsibilities onto me. I had to stand up one day and told her off right to her face. I only work part-time (4 hours), but she works 8 hours and is a very lazy worker. She is the type of person who is involved in what I call “behind the curtain” politics.

    Please pray for us. Thanks.


  56. So true Holly.

    James 1:8King James Version (KJV)
    8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

    Unstable on the blood of Christ. Unstable on the mark of the beast. Unstable on the gifts of the Spirit. Unstable on grace. Unstable on works.

    The Bible does say we’re saved by grace through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). It says we were included in Christ from the moment we believed and God has put His mark of ownership on us and His Spirit in our hearts as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance (2 Cor. 1:21-22, Ephesians 1:13-14). It says a righteousness from God has been imputed to us because of our belief in what Jesus did for us at the cross. It says there is no difference in people for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but we are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus (Romans 3:21-24). This last verse tells us that the appropriate name for what we believe is “free grace”. JMac does not really ‘believe’ this. His problem is his faith is in another Jesus. With his intellect and erudition, that … is truly frightening.

    At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Matthew 11:25

  57. The Greek word metanoeo is translated into English as repent. It literally means to change one’s mind.
    When John the Baptist told his listeners to repent and be forgiven (Luke 3:3) he was trying to get them to change their minds about their need for a savior.
    In Acts 2:36 Peter was persuading his listeners to change their minds about who Jesus is. His listeners were Jewish and believed that salvation came through keeping the law rather than believing in a ‘person’. They needed to change their minds about Jesus.

    Often non believers both Jewish and Gentile , don’t believe that they’re sinners and therefore don’t feel the need for a Savior. Only after they change their minds about sin can they become receptive to the idea of being saved. The only clear precondition for salvation the Bible gives them is to “believe in the One He has sent.” (John 6:28-29). He has already taken care of everything else.

  58. Holly,
    I’m trying to understand how being a Mid-Acts Dispensationalist demands a specific definition of repentance different from the one you hold (which I do as well). I’ve heard mid-Acts teachers, such as Richard Jordan, speak on repentance and use a definition that is consistent with your own (change of mind). I’ve certainly heard them say that certain elements of the NT are only for the Jews, and I’d agree. So, in this case it is not who repentance is for, but what is the object of repentance. For example in Acts 2, Peter’s command to “repent and be baptized” is directed at a specific audience (v.5,11,14,29,36).

  59. William, I am praying for you and your family and the difficulties you are experiencing with your work, neighbors, and your son’s marriage.

  60. “Repent and be baptized” .. The Jewish belivers were to change their minds about religious works, Their traditional rituals as the way to access God and embrace Christ Jesus as their only way To God.. the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob..

  61. Praying William

  62. Jesus said, “Ask and it will be given to you, seek and you will find, and knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, everyone who seeks finds, and to everyone who knocks the door will be opened” (Matt. 7:7-8). He was speaking to Jews in Israel . God doesn’t want that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (1 Tim. 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9) and will grant salvation to anyone who seeks it, without prejudice.

    Moses’ conveyed the Torah to the people (which the ‘Perushim’/Pharisees embellished/added to/made ‘a fence’ around:

    Deuteronomy 6:25King James Version (KJV)
    25 And it shall be our righteousness, IF we observe to do ALL
    these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.

    For a Jewish person, to believe on Jesus as the Divine Messiah was to forsake the teaching of the Pharisees which was work based. Jesus did not give the Jewish people any hope when it came to the teachings of the Pharisees ….

    Matthew 5:20
    For I say unto you that unless your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Exceed? You mean that even the righteousness of the Pharisees is not sufficient to ‘attain’ Heaven? Correct. So then which one of you exceeds their righteousness? None … except Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMaschiach)
    who is “Yahawah Tzidkeinu” (Hebrew), ‘the LORD our Righteousness …

    In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is HIS name whereby HE shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah 23:6

    Jewish and/or Gentile must possess (not work toward) the same righteousness that God Himself has in order to enter Heaven for Eternity.
    A born again Jewish person and a born again Gentile (both members of the ‘one new man’ have the same righteousness as God Himself … it is imputed to them instantaneously when they are born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit :

    2 Corinthians 5:21
    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    When the Divine Messiah Yeshua HaMaschiach (Jesus Christ) died on the Roman cross, He put to death Lordship Salvation (salvation by works):

    Look at these three scriptures below written to Jewish believers (which LS proponents do not know what to do with ) ….

    How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from DEAD WORKS to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:14

    Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from DEAD WORKS and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
    Hebrew 6:1 – 2

    For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Hebrews 4:10

    And for all believers, for the ‘one new man’ ….

    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    Ephesians 2:10

    (Berean Literal Bible)
    For we are His workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works
    which God prepared beforehand
    that we should walk in them.
    Ephesians 2:10


  63. William,

    My heart breaks after hearing what you and your family are going through. I will pray for you and your family and continue to stand for the pure, simple Gospel.

    Bryan R.

  64. William,

    I am praying for you and your family also.

  65. Hi everyone. First time poster here.

    I originally believed the true gospel of faith alone, but then after a few months legalism started creeping into my beliefs. I first believed 6 months ago. I was raised Catholic so I had to overcome some major legalistic hurdles at first but thanks to God’s authoritative Word the truth was made clear to me. I remember a few days after I first believed a peace I had never felt before just suddenly filled me. It was like the first time ever I was spiritually alive. For the last couple months I have fallen back into the sins I did so much before I was saved. Alcohol and sexual immorality. I had begun focusing on my works and therefore had much worry over whether I was saved or not. In recent weeks I have been praying more than I ever have before for God to show me the truth and correct me in any way I might be erring. It appears he has done that. I fell into the trap of lordship salvation and calvinism. It has been a very confusing time for me but God’s Word has corrected me in my mistakes. I still pray every day that God shine His light upon any lies I might still be believing in. I am happy that I found this website (and others like it) it has reminded me of the very same gospel I first believed in half a year ago. Satan keeps accusing me when I sin saying things to the effect of, “look at these things you have done, how could God ever accept you? Just give up it’s hopeless” but by the grace of God I have pressed forward. I don’t have anyone in my life (besides God of course) who I can talk to. My mother is a Catholic and my dad seems to be one of those “accepting of all religions and viewpoints” type of person. All the friends I used to have I have no longer. I want to do God’s will and preach His word but doubt and confusion has crippled me. Everytime I would try I would just think “what is the point? I don’t even know if I am saved”. Through this experience I understand why free grace is the truth, because if we spend our lives looking at our works instead of at Christ’s works on the cross, then there will always be doubts and those doubts can disarm a Christian in their walk with Christ. I hate sin so much. But I thank God because I see the sanctification happening in my life. Thank you all for your wonderful, scripturally accurate posts here it has been a blessing in this time of my life.

    I have been reading jesus-is-savior.com the last few days. They appear to proclaim the true gospel too. I was wondering what you guys think about that website if you have ever visited it?

    Please pray for me that I may be delivered from ALL evil deceptions. It appears that Satan has a larger grip on this world than I even thought. God bless you all.

  66. Brad, welcome.

    Yes, Satan loves to sow seeds of confusion in believers. Know and remember that it is never God who is trying to confuse you. I have prayed for you to grow in grace.

    As for the website you mentioned, I don’t like it. It features lots of article by David J. Stewart, who I would not recommend, is virulently KJV only, promotes Charles Spurgeon as a great preacher, and seems to be focused on a lot of conspiratorial-type conjecture.

  67. Glad to see you here Brad, I will pray for you. Yes, Johninc is right, good decerment is needed when on that site, it is also anti-Semitic. However, I too found that site when I was going coming out of the snared of Lordship Salvation back in 2012, it was there that I found a link of Ray Stanford’s book Personal Handbook for Evangelism which led me to Jack Weaver( the founder of this site, who is now the Lord). So God used it as a way to find this site. There are some good articles there but I never share their stuff because I don’t want someone weak or new in the faith get snared in some of the bad doctrine taught there. Just keep read the Bible as much as possible and read the articles and comments on this site as much as you can, I have been blessed and grown so much since I found this site almost 5 years ago.

  68. Thank you johninnc.

    I have come up with a theory through this experience. Satan only wants those who actually believe the truth (Christ) to doubt and worry. In another way, why would Satan want a person to doubt if that person is presently believing in a delusion? I look at the world and all of it’s evil deceptive religions and I think, these misled misguided people Satan does not seek to attack with doubt, but rather encourage them in their delusions with comfort and peace. Does that make sense? Satan comforts the deluded and attacks the truthful.

    Also I have a 1611 King James Bible and love it. I do believe the newer translations err in ways. I am not exactly strong on that topic though just a personal opinion. Before I was saved I used to be a big “new ager”. I understand how the “conspiracy theory” world can lead a person down a false path because I have been there myself. I had a major mental breakdown a couple years ago because of it. I am so grateful to God that he found me in all of my sin and regenerated my spirit.

    I don’t know much about Charles Spurgeon though many sources I have been reading the last few months have constantly quoted him. Can you provide me some further reading about him?

    I still find myself struggling with legalistic thoughts, but they seem to lessen by the day.

    I have a question. In Romans 7:17 seems to mention that a believer no longer sins “Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” Is that true? And if so doesn’t it contradict 1 John 2:1, which says “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”?

    What are the proper distinctions between the inward man and the outward man? As mentioned in 2 Corinthians 4:16, “For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.”

    I myself have personally found a very clear disagreement or “war” between what I inwardly want to do versus what my flesh or “members” want to do, since being saved.

    God bless you all.

  69. Brad, I agree that Satan wouldn’t do anything to disrupt the beliefs of an unsaved person. Yet, I think God continues to draw nonbelievers, whether they think they are saved, or not.

    I like the KJV too, but do not consider it to be perfect. See article below from Tom Cucuzza:


    Please find below article exposing Spurgeon:


    Spurgeon is bad news.

    Please note that we have a “search” feature, with which you can look up some of these things.

    You are correct that our new nature does not sin (see also 1 John 3:9), yet our flesh still does. Not a contradiction, but an affirmation that we still have a flesh (see Romans 7:25).

    The outward man, I think, is our flesh, and our inner man our new, sinless nature. Please see our statement of faith, section 9.

  70. So, for the believer, it is no longer he who sins, but just his flesh? John tells us that we can still sin though. Why would we need to confess our sins if it is no longer us who commits them?

    Thank you for the material you linked also.

  71. Brad Welcome to an Oasis of Grace
    you are not alone in your testimony , “doctrines of devils;” Legalistic Teaching , The systematical thought process of Calvinism I ended up taking doctor prescribed anti depressants and had 2 mental breakdowns . Starting August 2010 The second was after a legalistic “repent of sins” revival ministry when I confronted the IFCA church that was not the gospel that was presented from the “revival ministry” I knew what i heard was not a correct gospel then a short time later I found expreacherman
    I’m of the opinion as well There is something uniquely different about the KJV in the sentence structure the cadence that gets lost in other translations
    avoid the website you posted , that is a fear mongering “spirit of fear” website even though the gentleman does post some good articles. The best way to fool a person is to give them something good along with error.

    personally what has brought the most peace and mental calm to me is The clear Gospel of Grace Teaching and Preaching a clear doctrinal statement The doctrinal statement here on expreacherman is biblically sound but you should search the scriptures on your own to “prove all things”

    below i posted a link to Avoiding the Ditch Of Legalism he does preach from the NKJV but most all times refers back to KJV as to why the Translation.

    And Yes The Lord has restored my soul as well there is healing from His Holy Word of Truth to give us “sound mind” thinking.

    1 Tim4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    Avoiding the Ditch Of Legalism

  72. Brad, scripture teaches that believers can still sin. Scripture also teaches that if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Suppressing truth and allowing the flesh to control us are opposed to walking in the Spirit. Following is an excerpt from our statement of faith on this topic:

    A child of God has two births; one of the flesh, the other of the Spirit, giving man a flesh nature and a Spirit nature. The flesh nature is neither good nor righteous. The Spiritual Man does not commit any sin. This results in a warfare between the Spirit and the flesh, which continues until physical death, or the return of the Lord. The flesh nature of the man does not change in any way with the new birth, but can be controlled and kept subdued by the new man as the believer is obedient to the Lord through His Word. John 3:3-7; Romans 7:15-25; Romans 8:8; Galatians 5:17; I John 3~9; I Peter 1:23; I John 5:18; I John 1:8.

    Most of our commenters believe that 1 John 1:9 instructs believers to continually confess their sins to stay in fellowship with God. As such, the confession of sin would be an acknowledgment that we had allowed our flesh to manifest itself.

    There are several interpretations of 1 John 1:9 that I have come across that are consistent with grace, including:

    1. It is written to believers, and is a reference to their acknowledgement, in having come to Christ for eternal life, that they were sinners in need of a Savior. It does not relate to needing to confess sins on an ongoing basis to maintain fellowship.

    2. It is written to believers, and refers to confessing sin as a necessity for maintaining fellowship, or at least close fellowship, with Christ.

    3. It is written to nonbelievers who do not understand that they are sinners, in need of a Savior. If they are going to come to Christ for eternal life, they will have to come to the realization that they are sinners, in need of a Savior.

    4. It is written to both nonbelievers and believers. For nonbelievers, it is a call for acknowledgement that they are sinners in need of a Savior. For believers, it is either a call for the ongoing confession of sins or a continued acknowledgment that they have not reached a state of sinless perfection.

    We have had extensive discussion of this topic at Expreacherman, and our commenters have registered their views as to their interpretations of 1 John 1:9, together with their reasons for coming to those interpretations.

    I do not want to start that discussion afresh.

    For a good overview of that discussion, start with the first link and finish with the last link below:



  73. William
    praying for you and pondering somethings would like to share

    with all you are going through at this time
    “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:”
    By enjoying the Lord Jesus the God of our Salvation through His Word Allow the Holy Spirit to go to battle for us We simply rest by Grace Through Faith.

    1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 
    1Pe 3:16  Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 

    your wife and relation to your wife is the second most important take her out for Dinner or make her dinner. Tend to her..

    you should leave youtube and social media alone at least for a time or season. False doctrine gets me upset as well ( I cant handle it) keep in mind there are internet trolls that is their self imposed mission in life just to stir something up (doctrine of devils) and get you upset (whatever it takes) that is their joy they have no interest in learning. Don’t allow them to draw you out into an debate. Don’t answer the wrong question’s.
    That’s what I respected about Jack Weaver who is now in Glory he never allowed anyone to debate nor did he debate himself but used the sword of the Spirit or rather the Spirit used him as he yielded. I have yet to meet another soul like him neither do I expect to.

  74. Yes, praying for you Will. Often when you pray for others in the midst of your trials breakthroughs occur.

    He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Romans 8:32

    You can pray for me too … I’m legally blind. But here is God’s Word for you plain and simple:

    And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

    For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29

    Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    Romans 8:30

    But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 1 Peter 5:10

    We are an imminent shout, voice and trump away from release to Glory.

    Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:14


  75. Hi everyone.

    Is there a collection somewhere I can read of all the “carnal” believers in the bible, like King David and the Corinthian Church?

  76. sadly it is easier to pick out the believers who were not carnal .
    King Josiah
    2Ki 23:25  And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the LORD with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him. 

    Apostle Paul admitted to wrestling with carnality

  77. Below is a link to teaching lessons from Charles Clough that has helped me in taking the pressure off in witnessing to others and staying out of debates.
    I have listened to a lot of Charles Clough he is a scientist and is long winded explaining away the details as scientist do he is one smart cookie .
    the questions to keep in mind when engaged in a debate to gain an exit:
    “by what Standard”
    “What is God’s Standard for Righteousness ”
    Charles Clough
    Not Ashamed Of The Gospel

  78. Curtis, You may be the one here who got me listening to Charles a while back. I went through a few series he did (YouTube) and found him very helpful. Thanks.

  79. Hi again everyone. Since finding this site a week ago I have some questions regarding assurance of salvation.

    Now I wholeheartedly believe that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross for us ALONE. I also believe that a person does not HAVE to change in any way in order to be saved, or to evidence salvation. I know full well the problems regarding “fruit inspecting” as you call it. My question is about looking at inward changes that have occurred in my own life.

    Over the last six months (since putting my faith in Christ) I have witnessed some pretty large changes taking place in my life, such as hating things I used to love, focusing on God rather than the world etc. When I was first saved I did resolve right away to walk in the Spirit. So, many changes have been happening, I certainly don’t have any interest in being a carnal Christian. Is it wrong of me to look at changes that have clearly happened and simply obeserve them as being an OPTIONAL evidence of salvation (that is to say, not NEEDED for salvation but certainly worth noting?).

    Like having new desires. Being forgiving, loving, patient, joyful at times. The question I am asking is, because I can know my own heart, I am not interested in fruit inspecting myself, but can I look at my heart and see changes that have occurred there and seek some confidence from that? Keep in mind I am not suggesting that ANY change HAS to be evident in order to be saved, but these changes are certainly there, is it wrong to look at them for, lets say, motivation or confidence?

    When I first came to this site a week ago I got the impression pretty quickly that a Christian should never ever look to any fruits/works for any amount of assurance. Is there ever an exception?

    For example, I lost interest in the world in a pretty big way when I was first saved and I would see that as a huge evidence that I AM saved, but certainly never saw it as the REASON I am saved. Nor did I ever see it as something that NEEDED to be present to be saved.

    I only want to look at my inward changes remember, not so much outward changes. I believe I can do this seeing as I CAN know my own heart. Is this wrong or right?

    Your input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

  80. Brad, you may get some dissenting advice on this from others, but my opinion is that looking for confirmatory evidence of eternal life, based on inward changes in your desires, etc. is highly dangerous. The reason is this: your focus is on you. If you start focusing on you, and you are honest, you will eventually see something you don’t like. Then, the same source of confirmatory assurance – you – could easily become the source of doubt. God wants us to keep our focus on Jesus and His finished work.

    We can see the handiwork of God everywhere, and we are sometimes aware of the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives, but we should never look to that to confirm that we have eternal life.

    Bottom line is that if we have assurance, based on God’s promises alone, we do not, and should not look for any evidence to confirm that we can believe Him. We should rest on the assurance of His promises.

  81. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Psalm 51:6
    This is essentially after salvation once one is sealed by the Holy Spirit.

    An unsaved person may feel righteous inwardly … and outwardly but will still stand at the Great White Throne Judgement, as will those ‘practicing’ Lordship Salvation (who are actually unsaved).

    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Matthew 7:22

    Who are the “many” ?

    13Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot and throw him outside into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14For many are called, but few are chosen.” Matthew 22:13,14

  82. Yes, our assurance of salvation comes from the Promises of God, from the Word of God.

    Luke 17:10

    “So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”

    Bible commentary
    Wesley’s Notes for Luke 17:10

    17:10 When ye have done all, say, We are unprofitable servants

    – For a man cannot profit God. Happy is he who judges himself an unprofitable servant: miserable is he whom God pronounces such. But though we are unprofitable to him, our serving him is not unprofitable to us. For he is pleased to give by his grace a value to our good works, which in consequence of his promise entitles us to an eternal reward.

    People’s Bible Notes for Luke 17:10

    Lu 17:10 We are unprofitable servants.

    Our Master owes us no thanks when we serve him faithfully, for we have only done our duty. The heavenly reward to the faithful is of grace, not of debt (Ro 11:6).

    “Standing On The Promises”

    Standing on the promises of Christ my King,
    Through eternal ages let His praises ring.
    Glory in the highest I will shout and sing
    I’m standing on the promises of God.

    Standing on the promises that cannot fail
    When the howling storms of doubt and fear assail.
    By the living word of God I shall prevail.
    I’m standing on the promises of God.

    Standing, standing, standing on the promises of God my Savior.
    Standing, standing, standing on the promises of God.

    What a fellowship, what a joy divine,
    Leaning on the everlasting arms.
    What a blessedness, what a peace is mine,
    Leaning on the everlasting arms.

    I’m leaning, leaning
    Safe and secure from all alarms.
    I’m leaning, I’m leaning, leaning on the everlasting arms

    Are you washed in the blood in the soul-cleansing blood of the Lamb?
    Are your garments spotless, are the white as snow?
    Are you washed in the blood of the lamb?

    Yes, I’m standing, standing, standing on the promises of God my Savior.
    I’m standing, standing, standing on the promises of God.
    Yes, I’m standing, standing?
    I’m standing on the promises of God!

  83. Some believers (either in the Tribulation period or perhaps prior to it) will not be aware that they have done a great service to “the Lord’s own ‘brethren’ ” …

    When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, WHEN saw we thee an hungred, and fed THEE? or thirsty, and gave THEE drink?
    WHEN saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    Or WHEN saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto ONE of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it NOT to one of the least of these, ye did it NOT TO ME 46
    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

  84. Guys, please pray for this man:

    (Administrator’s note: there are articles referenced in the attached link by known teachers of false doctrine,such as Franklin Graham, Francis Chan, and others. We recommend that you avoid the site, except for news of Paul Washer’s health concerns).

  85. Socal, I have prayed for Paul Washer and his family.

  86. Prayed for Paul Washer and Family

  87. Brad
    The Video I posted above Avoiding the ditch of legalism is a vid that has helped me.
    feel free to call me or email me anytime .

    Spirituality is invisible and vertical , acceptable Works are the by product . anything a unsaved soul can do that a saved soul does is not spirituality. We are spiritual in our thinking allowing the Holy Spirit through the Word of God dictate policy to us if we allow if we yield. God will not violate our volition however we can not choose the consequences. God only disciplines his children. as in what you have posted Loving what God Loves Hating what God Hates


  88. Thanks for the answer Johninnc.

    I do believe God’s promises. It is just nice to have an “extra” confidence in the situation by clear changes that have occurred in my life. Even though I recognize those changes don’t have to be there.

    For example, the war between the inward man and the outward man is not something that an unsaved unregenerated man experiences in their life. Where the Spirit and the flesh vehemently disagree with eachother.

    Another example is, for me, in recent months God has been teaching me how to fellowship with him better. Why would he do this if I wasn’t His child?

    One other short question, do you believe God hears/answers prayers of unbelievers? 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” and John 9:31 “Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.” appears to answer no. Thoughts?

    God Bless you. I will pray for Paul Washer.

  89. Brad, you may get differing perspectives on this question as well, but I think God does hear and answer some prayers of unbelievers. For example, someone could respond to God’s drawing ministry by seeking clarity through prayer. God may respond to this by leading them to someone/something that would help them to understand the gospel.

  90. Okay interesting. But what about standard prayer not related to coming to the gospel? Like if an unbeliever just asked God for help with something in their life (i.e. temptation or guidance).

  91. Brad, I’m not sure. I would think that God would have the prerogative to listen to/answer the prayers of anyone, but I am interested in other opinions.

  92. Brad…
    I strongly agree with johninnc about the danger of relying even partially on anything other than God’s promise of eternal life to anyone who believes on Jesus. Your feelings and desires can change on a dime. A perceived “spiritual insight” that might appear to confirm that God is working with you as a saved person may turn out to be wrong or misunderstood.

    When you are resting in Christ’s sacrifice for you as your only hope, there is no need for anything “extra”. The desire for anything “extra” is itself a manifestation of the flesh. It’s a trap!

    You will bypass years of doubt, misery and wasted time if you resolve now to regard God’s promise and that alone as the only assurance you need or want. Anything else is of the flesh.

  93. Chas, very well said.

  94. Brad
    the questions you are asking are outlined in the doctrinal statement here at expreacherman.com.. Anyone who realizes they have been exposed to false teaching needs to re orienent themselves through prayer seeking wisdom and understanding searching the scriptures.
    we all should have a personal doctrinal statement and remind ourselves how we are saved..
    A believer soul can be spiritual or carnal in our thinking at anytime any moment..
    we are being spiritual in our thinking when we respond to God’s Word in Our thinking.
    Catching Sin in our thoughts before sin finds expression…
    God did not tell us to do anything but to Stay in fellowship with Him.. as believer souls. By Grace Through Faith. The only response to Grace is Faith..
    delighting ourselves in our PERFECT postion in Christ Jesus.
    Perfect postion Justification AND Perfect position of Santification..
    now in the light of our perfect postion
    We are to confess our sin as private preist before the Lord.. Reckoning ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God
    Present ourselves Romans 12 :1-2
    Yeild Ourselves To the Holy Spirit..
    Under the Law of The Spirit Romans 8 we reighn in righteousness..
    we still have Old Nature.. The new man created in Christ Jesus does not sin.
    its the old sin nature.. God does not remodle the old sin nature God starts all over with the New Nature..

  95. Brad, In response to your question, “Is there a collection somewhere I can read of all the “carnal” believers in the bible, like King David and the Corinthian Church?”

    Here’s the following from God’s Word:

    1) Samson is a true man of God and at the same time a FORNICATOR – Judges 16:1. As a painful consequence of his fornication, Samson was captured by the Philistines and had both eyes gouged out – Judges 16:21, and the Philistines also degraded and ridiculed Samson publicly – Judges 16:25. Samson’s last prayer just before his simultaneous murder/suicide was NOT a prayer of repentance, but was a request to God to strengthen him so that he could get REVENGE on the Philistines for the loss of his 2 eyes. Then in Judges 16:28-30, Samson commits a simultaneous MURDER/SUICIDE.Yet Samson is listed as a Godly man of faith in Hebrews 11:32. Samson would not be listed there if he was unsaved.

    2) KING DAVID is a true man of God who committed ADULTERY/MURDER – 2 Samuel 11:1-21. This happened despite the fact that King David had over 6 wives at the time – 2 Samuel 3:1-5, 2 Samuel 5:13. God chastised King David with a series of painful consequences, but his eternal salvation was never in question.

    People in the Old Testament were saved the exact same way as people in New Testament times, otherwise the apostle Paul would not have quoted Genesis 15:6 in Romans 4:2-6 in support of the gospel.

    3) King Solomon is a true man of God, but became a serial polygamist and demon worshiper at the end of his life – 1 Kings 11:1-13. Solomon even built 2 altars to the 2 demon gods, Chemosh and Molech in 1 Kings 11:7. Molech was a demon god that required child sacrifices – a Satanic practice. (The practice of sacrificing one’s sons/daughters in the fire – Leviticus 18:21, 2 Kings 23:10) This was King Solomon. Solomon persisted in his sins despite God warning him TWICE – 1 Kings 9:2 – 6, 1 Kings 11:9-11. Because of Solomon’s defiance, God declared to Solomon that He would tear away a major portion of his kingdom, but do it in his son’s generation because of God’s covenant with Solomon’s father, King David.

    God then brought 3 adversaries against Solomon – 1 Kings 11:14, 23, 26. Then we read that Solomon tried to commit MURDER in 1 Kings 11:40. Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say that Solomon “lost his salvation” or “never had it to begin with.”

    I will continue in my next post.

  96. Brad,

    Here’s more examples from the Corinthian church:

    The Corinthian Christian’s works of the apostle Paul’s time certainly would convince many people that they were “unsaved”. Their lives were deplorable. The Corinthian Christians of the apostle Paul’s time were living in gross sin and immorality, but Paul affirmed the fact that they were saved in 1 Corinthians 3:1 as he addressed them as “brethren” that were “carnal” babes in Christ. Paul would not have addressed them in that way if they were not saved.

    1) 1 Corinthians 3:3 – there was envying, strife, and divisions among the Christians.

    2) 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 – a Christian man was having sex with his stepmother and consequently Paul pronounced judgment on this man in 1 Corinthians 5:5 where Paul says, “hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. The Corinthian Christians attitude despite the fact that this man who was sleeping with his stepmother was one of PRIDE – 1 Cor 5:2

    In 2 Corinthians 2:5-8 we read that this man was chastened and that God had mercy on him and did not terminate his physical life. Paul instructs the church to forgive and comfort him so that he wont be overcome by excessive sorrow and to reaffirm their love and concern for him.

    3) 1 Corinthians 4:18 – there was arrogance among the Corinthian Christians.

    4) 1 Corinthians 6:7-8 – there were Christians taking other Christians to court and there was cheating among them.

    5) 1 Corinthians 7:2 – there was fornication among the Christians.

    6) 1 Corinthians 11:21 – there were Christians hogging and gorging themselves with food, and there was drunkenness at the Lord’s Supper.

    Because of their selfish indulgence of food and getting drunk God brought about sickness and physical death as punishment – 1 Cor 11:29-30.

    Scripture is clear that there are indeed carnal Christians that are saved. It’s not good or spiritually edifying that they are living in sin. God will punish them because they are His children, but they are still saved. The book of 1 Corinthians confirms the reality of carnal Christians and Paul affirmed that they are eternally saved by addressing them as “sanctified in Christ Jesus” and “saints” in 1 Cor 1:2.

    Paul addresses them as “brethren” in 1 Cor 2:1, as “brethren” and “carnal’ “babes in Christ” in 1 Cor 3:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 4:6, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 10:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 11:2, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 12:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 14:20, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 15:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 15:58. (KJV)

    The above list in 1 Corinthians where Paul repeatedly addressed the Corinthian Christians as “brethren” is overwhelming evidence that these are saved people possessing eternal life. Paul would not have addressed them as “brethren” if they were not saved.

    Self-righteous Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists would of course deliberately deny the existence of carnal Christians and would deliberately write off carnal Christians as “unsaved” despite overwhelming evidence from Scripture.

  97. the people in old testiment were saved by faith and placed into family of God. They did not have Holy Spirit indwelling them but Holy Spirit came upon them. We of the Church Age have Holy Spirit indwelling us.
    Samson with eyes put out could be a representation of carnal belivers.

  98. Curtis, the problem there is that many of these men either wrote scripture, requiring the Holy Spirit, had the Holy Spirit, in the case of King Saul and Samson, or were called brethren by the Apostles.

  99. If i could use an illustration for us all.
    When I was fabricating Granite Countertops a template was made for the Stone cutters to follow. When i made template i was useing digital equipment to capture points of the cabinetry and walls. I would then use a laptop computer CAD program to confirm all dimensions and could see what was out of square .
    I got so honed in on measurements and what is square and straight I could walk in a room and tell if cabinety was square and straight just by sight. I would be careful when to speak unless real bad and just made the stone to hide the errors..
    That being said. I once was on a commercial building project high rise as free lance templater and everything seamed out of square and out of place and was constant struggle to make thigs right. Then one day i asked the sight foreman “whats wrong with this building that things don’t seam right?”
    His response was ” It all started at the corner of the foundation that is 1 inch out of square and we have been struggling and chasing that 1 inch out of square all the way through the rest of the building.”

    We should all be reminding ourselves what the “Truth of The Gospel” is by seeking for asking for wisdom and understanding from God through His Word.
    There is a couple of the best gospel booklets available here at expreacherman.com and a very good biblical doctrinal statement. We should be searching the scriptures by context, content, and then comparing scripture with scripture before comming to conclusion.
    To expose what is a false gospel we need to seek The “Truth of The Gospel” and strive to be so discerning of not only what preachers/teachers say BUT more importantly what they are not saying.


  100. Curtis, this is a great analogy, and a very interesting story.

  101. “It all started at the corner of the foundation that is 1 inch out of square and we have been struggling and chasing that 1 inch out of square all the way through the rest of the building.”

    This immediately came to mind…

    “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.”—Galatians 5:9

    Thanks, Curtis.

  102. Just a thought…..is it possible that all these enthusiastic proponents of lordship salvation are all extroverts? Is it possible for an introvert to be a happy and peaceful adherent to LS?

  103. Rob, interesting question. I guess those that like strength in numbers would find a lot of company in the LS community.

  104. Your comment johninnc showed me I used the wrong term above. I should have said “introspective” as opposed to a non-introspective person. I think of someone who is very aware of his inner world, his thoughts, feelings and motivations. Jesus said that it’s not just our actions that matter, but our thoughts too. For example, lust in the heart is equivalent to actual adultery. So the more introspective a person is, the more likely they are to see their own falling short. I can see how LS could really make one miserable who’s is of that psychological proclivity.

  105. I want to throw this out there too, though I am sure it has been brought up here. Isn’t the fact that Paul admonishes and encourages the churches to engage in virtuous behavior a powerful refutation of LS? He actually tells them in effect that because they are saved, they should act like it. This is the opposite of what LS teaches, is it not?

  106. Lordship Salvationists can’t wrap their heads around the true biblical definition of the word “repent”, they toss that word around as if it means to turn from sin (aka a work) and say you must repent in order to be saved. It really is ridiculous beause the true meaning of that word is right there in the Greek lexicons for all to see.

    These self righteous people will say things like “if you sin after being saved you lose your salvation” as if they have stopped sinning altogether in their lives. What sort of delusion is this? A person cannot stop sinning as long as they are in the flesh so where on earth do they get this idea they can completely stop sinning from?

    I read someone the other day say “you don’t have to stop sinning in order to be saved, but to be saved you must stop sinning”. Literally that was the jist of what he said, are they aware of their double mindedness?

  107. Rob, very good point. An introspective person may have more personal awareness.

  108. Rob, we have discussed that. The Bible would be pretty short if Christians just automatically engaged in virtuous behavior.

  109. Brad, exactly. LS is self-deception and doublespeak.

  110. I was watching someone on youtube who said “if you have even one sin in your life when you die you will go to hell”. He will then go on to talking about how Christ paid for all sins. Amazing!

    I am still a bit unclear on the whole “a Christian cannot sin” thing. So the inward man cannot sin but the outward man still does?

  111. Brad, you asked the same question earlier (less than a week ago), and I gave you a detailed response.

    It is difficult to wrap our heads around, but scripture does teach that the regenerate (new) man is sinless. The flesh is still capable of sin. That is in our statement of faith.I would not spend too much time racking your brain about this difficult concept, but pray for clarity if you wish.

    You might like to do some further reading at the old section of “Clear Gospel.” The format can be difficult to read. It may help you to copy the text onto a Word file. I will also warn you in advance that the section is long, and some of the pages seem a little tedious to me. See below:


  112. Brad, I have some excerpts from an article we did for helping new believers:

    1. Suggest that they repeatedly read clear explantations of God’s plan of salvation. Such resources will remind them of the Biblical truth that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. This will also reinforce the truths of eternal security and assurance for the believer in Christ.

    We recommend two such resources at ExPreacherMan.

    “The Gospel” booklet by Ron Shea


    “How to Be Sure You are Going to Heaven” by Dr. Thomas Cucuzza:


    2. Have them learn to read God’s Word. Start by suggesting they read through the book of Galatians several times, one chapter per day. The book of Galatians is a defense of the gospel that will help new believers understand the nature of the attacks that they will face from the world of professing Christendom, and the Biblical response to those attacks.

    3. Emphasize the importance of not looking to changes in our lives for assurance of salvation, nor to let the lack of sufficient changes in our lives undermine our assurance of salvation.

    4. Warn them to avoid playing “Russian Roulette” with books, sermons, and websites that claim to be teaching Christianity. There is more bad teaching out there than good.

    5. Make yourself available for questions – within reason. Some people will fail to do things they need to do to grow in grace, or will do things to undermine their faith (see number 4) and be pretty shaky. Challenge people to take an active role, and not just have you feed them.

    6. Let them know to never let down their guard and to maintain vigilance. Avoid any church where there is evidence of Calvinism or Lordship “salvation.” Many churches and pastors will claim to believe in grace, but their words will betray them. Consider the following from one false teaching mega-church:

    From “Core Beliefs:

    Those who put their faith alone in Christ for Salvation are children of God and heirs of eternal life.

    From the Senior Pastor’s blog:

    Through my obedience, my Father has given me the final authority to execute judgment over all humanity. One day, everyone will hear my voice and appear before me in final judgment. Don’t marvel at this saying. It is true. This judgment will solely depend on those who have believed in me. John’s gospel repeatedly states this truth (3:16;5:24,25; 14:6). However, good and bad deeds will prove an individual’s faith. If good deeds aren’t there, it proves faith isn’t present. These people face eternal judgment. If good deeds are there, it proves faith is present and they are granted eternal resurrection life.

    7. Tell them to share the good news with others.

  113. Brad, Your comment – “I am still a bit unclear on the whole “a Christian cannot sin” thing. So the inward man cannot sin but the outward man still does?”

    My comment – Exactly and well said. The inner man which is the regenerate self is sinless because we have Christ’s imputed righteousness, but however the outer man which is the flesh still sins no matter how hard we try not to. We will continue to sin whether intentionally or unintentionally until Christ returns at the Rapture to transform us. The apostle Paul understood this well as he also struggled with sin AFTER he was saved and he describes the inner conflict in Romans 7:14-25 that we all face on a daily basis.

    That’s why 1 John 1:8-10 and 1 John 2:1 were written because all Christians still sin after salvation because of the flesh which is the outer man.

  114. John, I’m concerned about the following excerpt that is part of a post in response to Brad that goes, “From the Senior Pastor’s blog:

    Through my obedience, my Father has given me the final authority to execute judgment over all humanity. One day, everyone will hear my voice and appear before me in final judgment. Don’t marvel at this saying. It is true. This judgment will solely depend on those who have believed in me. John’s gospel repeatedly states this truth (3:16;5:24,25; 14:6). HOWEVER, GOOD AND BAD DEEDS WILL PROVE AN INDIVIDUAL’S FAITH. IF GOOD DEEDS AREN’T THERE, IT PROVES FAITH ISN’T PRESENT. THESE PEOPLE FACE ETERNAL JUDGMENT. IF GOOD DEEDS ARE THERE, IT PROVES FAITH IS PRESENT AND THEY ARE GRANTED ETERNAL RESURRECTION LIFE.”

    Something tells me that the latter half of this excerpt is INCORRECT and sounds like Lordship Salvation. Doesn’t the latter half sound like it’s saying that one’s works proves that they’re saved??

  115. William, you are absolutely correct that the excerpt I included from that pastor’s blog is false LS doctrine. That’s why I included it. I was contrasting the statement of faith with the pastor’s blog, to show that even when someone’s statement of faith seems OK on the surface, other things the pastor teaches may contradict it.

    That is why I led with consider the following from one false teaching mega-church

  116. Johninnc, your point 6 states: ‘Avoid any church where there is evidence of Calvinism or Lordship “salvation.” Many churches and pastors will claim to believe in grace, but their words will betray them’.
    Thank you for putting that in, I feel somewhat ‘vindicated’ for not attending churches in my area anymore, although trying to explain why we left and no longer attend those churches or Bible studies to others who are still in those churches/ Bible studies has been difficult and challenging and I have lost a lot of friendships with those people over this issue of Lordship ‘salvation’. Because on the surface of it, they claim to be ‘Grace’ churches and quote Eph 2: 8-9 frequently but if we listen long enough, out comes LS, such as ‘faith without works is dead’ or ‘you shall know them by their fruit’ or ‘examine yourself whether you are in the faith’ and so on. They merge what Christ HAS DONE for our salvation with what we HAVE TO DO ALSO other than simple faith in Christ. They undermine/ frustrate/ nullify Grace by adding ‘works’ as requirement for salvation. People think that we are just using that as an ‘excuse’ for not attending church. Little do they know that we spend far more time than they do listening to online sermons from genuine ‘Grace’ pastors and teachers such as Tom Cucuzza, Dennis Rokser, Ralph Arnold and of course Expreacherman site. I thank the Lord for your teaching.

  117. Alice, there were a few reasons I was so vigilant about the church that I mentioned in the article. First, I had interacted with a couple of their long-time members for a short period of time in a “Bible study” before work. Both of them seemed a little confused on the gospel, and said things like “even demons believe” and “a true Christian always comes back.” That led me to think they were hearing false “perseverance of the saints” messages at church. Second, the church is a huge “mega” church, and I suspected that it was at least tolerant of LS messages. Finally, the church uses the ESV Bible, which is a favorite among Calvinists.

    You may recall that we addressed the issue of churchianity posing as church in another article. If not, please see below:


  118. Found a fired-up southern woman that speaks truth!

    (Link removed by administrator)

  119. If you are disciplining a new believer or witnessing to someone in LS be aware of the following:
    There are “translations” that add the phrase “of your sins” to “repent” (metanoeo) in places like Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 etc.
    This is done with no support from the Greek whatsoever.
    The popular “New Living Translation” does this. As does “The Complete Jewish Study Bible”

    Built in shipwreck.

  120. Brian, great advice. I tossed out my “New Lordship Translation.”

  121. John, even in this Bible church that i attend sometimes, the pastor has on a couple of occasions quoted Francis Chan–once even showing a short video of his. None of the Chan quotes or videos sounded LS. But together with this church using ESV plus Chan quotes concerns me. Their doctrinal statement is pure grace alone, but so are a lot of other churches, some who are actually LS. Needless to say, I’m less than enthusiastic about continuing attending this current church. Besides, I feel like this Grace Oasis site here is more like church to me that I feel is a grace home to me.

  122. As I recall the New Living Translation was given the thumbs up by the Billy Graham association.

  123. Phil, using innocuous quotes from false teachers seems like a good idea to some people, but I think it is can be extremely damaging. People like Francis Chan, Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, Jon MacArthur, John Calvin, and Charles Spurgeon get quoted a lot form the pulpit – even by people who know better.

    My wife and I briefly attended a church that seemed to be grace-oriented, but we saw some things that we didn’t like, such as ordination of deacons who worked for the Billy Graham organization, quoting MacArthur from the pulpit, association with the SBC, and use of language such as “giving their lives to Jesus” to refer to someone believing in Jesus for eternal life.

    We quit going to that church, but it has descended deeper and deeper into LS associations. The church had a clean-soundng statement of faith while we attended, but they have since replaced their statement of faith with the standard “Baptist Faith and Message.” The leaven is causing the dough to rise.

  124. Phil,I’m not surprised that the NLT is given the thumbs up by the Billy Graham association. They teach turn from sins for eternal life, and so does the NLT.

  125. I watched the video “Avoiding the Ditch of Legalism” and it has really helped me and it is so true. God wants us to live a life of dependence on Him by faith and not one of striving to depend on ourselves.
    I also recommend reading each day the 36 Amazing Things that God has for the believer listed above here.

  126. From what I read on the NLT’s site and Wikipedia, The NLT is not a true translation at all. It’s a glorified paraphrase. Its promoters have inserted the word “translation” into the title to give the false impression that it is a “updated” translation of the original languages, but it is really just someone’s subjective opinion of what “updating” should be done to the original. It’s one more condescending attempt to make the Bible “more accessible” to us dumb folk who supposedly can’t understand a true literal translation. It’s not surprising that these “translators” would insert their legalistic assumptions into the text.

    It’s also no surprise that it comes from people associated with the so-called Living Bible. Commentaries are one thing, but a commentary is up-front about being opinion. The setting of the Living “Bible” and this more subtle New Living “Translation” gives the misleading impression that these are communicating God’s Word. Very subversive, these are.

  127. Chas, thanks for the additional info on the NLT.

  128. the problem with pulpits quoting false and weak preachers and teachers is that is what you remember about a sermon and end up troubled.. Because thats what false teaching does it Troubles you.

    over 5 years ago I was attending a evangelical free church at the end of a missions ministry focus series the speaker quoted a John Piper quote that I can still remember if i choose too (im not going to post it) . The John Piper quote is biblically False but would appeal to the Carnal Moral belivers.
    That Piper quote upset me so much pretty sure that was last time I attended that assembly service other than prayer meetings.

    If a Pulpit does not understand the three tenses of salvation Justification /Santification / Glorification. Rightly dividing the word of God by Birth Truth and Growth Truth. With a Clear Gospel message and doctrinal statement.
    We are really just waisting time. We should only be supporting Pulpits even if only by live webcast..

  129. another issue to remember when pulpits quote from someone who is still alive is who they quote may go wondering off into false doctrine or not endure sound doctrine but tolorates weak or false teaching.. then we become partakers with them simply because we quoted them..

    Case in point I like Charles Clough he is one smart cookie.. in his framework sereies from the early 90’s he quotes people that are still alive today but are now in doctrinal error.
    another one is a pulpit Quoted from Jim Bakers book when he first came out with it. how the book exposed and denounced the prosperity gospel. Then just takes up a fear mongering buy my buckets and a shovel to survive the tribulation gospel. that is no gospel what so ever. Jim Baker is now just youtube comedian fodder.

  130. Jim Bakker sells supplies for Christians to ride out the end times. Using quotes from a con artist is a very poor way to lead a congregation.

  131. Curtis,

    You bring up a great point, several years ago I was caught up in the heretical teaching of Ray Comfort. I was passing out his tracts, watching his videos, and reading his books. While at the same time I was miserable, but at the time I didn’t know better. All started from my previous church showing a short clip of one of his videos on abortion. They didn’t promote his ministry or say anything about Ray Comfort, just showed his video. But since I thought the video did a good job explaining the horrendous reality of abortion I wanted to know more about Comfort. Besides, my thinking at the time was “If my church played a short clip without giving any warning of his false gospel, then I he must be a good Bible teacher to follow”.

  132. Pulpit People and lay leaders really should not be so nieve and sloppy in their own study to think that people dont search things out. especially now with access of research information on the Internet.
    Scripture does warn us to seperate unto Truth and when we Love not the Truth We start stumbling on the inside and can not give a clear Gospel Message. invitation to receive the free gift of eternal life..

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