Lordship Salvation: Following the MENyouscript

By johninnc

John 18:34: Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

As believers in Christ, we are stewards of the gospel message. We are called to proclaim the gospel, and to defend it against it against a seemingly endless supply of substitutes.

One of the bigger challenges we face in defending the gospel is the reliance people seem to place on error being taught by so called “experts” in theology, “giants of the faith,” “princes of preachers,” “great men of God,” and so on.

Following are some examples I have gleaned from the ExPreacherman archives of people following man’s “wisdom” versus the Word of God. These examples are from laypeople who are arguing against salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, and from well-known religious leaders of the past and present.

Please note that I have not researched all of the names mentioned. However, many of the quotes below contain at least one name of someone that I know to have taught horrific errors that are an affront to the gospel message, such as Calvinism, Lordship “salvation,” or Arminianism. And, all of the quotes demonstrate an over reliance on the teaching of men versus the teaching of God.

  1. I believe that you sincerely believe, to some degree, in the error you propagate. It just happens, brothers, that you are wrong. I refer you to more prominent and well-respected men than all of us here to prove it. I care little about L.S. as a term. Research how we are saved, according to respected men like Alistair Begg, R.C. Sproul, A.W. Pink, Spurgeon, James White (AP, commenter at ExPreacherman)
  1. I have found spiritual gold in many different places throughout my life. Outside of my dear parents and Leslie’s parents, there are twenty-six greats (from the past two centuries) that have most influenced my Christian thinking and living in our modern times. And since their thoughts are found speckled throughout these notes, I wish to honor them here, as a reminder to all the students gleaning wisdom from this training, that the strongest Christian leaders are but a consecrated quotation of the giants of faith that have proceeded him – C.T. Studd, Hudson Taylor, George Muller, Rees Howells, AW Tozer, William Booth, Amy Carmichal, Richard Wurmbrand, Leonard Ravenhill, Paris Reidhead, Corrie Ten Boom, George Whitefield, John Wesley, David Brainerd, Charles Spurgeon, EM Bounds, John Hyde, Jim and Elizabeth Elliot, Keith Green, Jackie Pullinger, DL Moody, Major Ian Thomas, Gladys Aylward, David Wilkerson, and Oswald Chambers. I dearly desire my life to be a quotation of such an audacious band of mighties. (Eric Ludy)
  1. To Tim Keller, whose thinking has so permeated my own that I can no longer really tell where his stops and mine starts. I am heavily indebted to him for many of the ideas in this book, particularly in chapters 2, 3, and 6. I have listened to and read Tim Keller so much that I tend to plagiarize his interpretation of a passage before I even hear him teach on that passage. (Pastor J.D. Greear)
  1. I would quote John Bunyan as an instance of what I mean. Read anything of his, and you will see that it is almost like the reading the Bible itself. He had read it till his very soul was saturated with Scripture; and, though his writings are charmingly full of poetry, yet he cannot give us his Pilgrim’s Progress — that sweetest of all prose poems — without continually making us feel and say, “Why, this man is a living Bible!” Prick him anywhere — his blood is Bibline, the very essence of the Bible flows from him. He cannot speak without quoting a text, for his very soul is full of the Word of God. I commend his example to you, beloved. (Charles Spurgeon)
  1. Although I don’t agree with the heresy of Lordship Salvation, I don’t agree with you either. I have been a fan of Stewart’s website and I’m so sure that he does NOT teach the crap of Lordship Salvation. Stewart is right, stop falsely accusing him. Stewart is saying that forsaking one’s sin is NOT the prerequisites of salvation, but the fruits of salvation. We don’t forsake our sins in order to be saved, indeed we forsake our sins because we ARE saved! (DQ689, commenter at ExPreacherman)

Each of the above commenters, authors, or preachers is purporting to be representing the Word of God in his comments and “shout outs” to his sources of inspiration. But, those sources are not the inspired Word of God. They are “MENyouscripts.”

I will close by saying that there is not a problem with quoting preachers or others when teaching the Word of God. It becomes problematic when those quotes are based on something not taught in scripture. And, quoting someone who distorts the gospel message can serve to frustrate grace. Let us all be reminded to be cautious when quoting others, particularly when those quotes are not supported by scripture or if we know the person we are quoting has been complicit in corrupting the gospel message.

Galatians 2:21: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

If you would like to know how to have eternal life, click here: THE GOSPEL







268 responses to “Lordship Salvation: Following the MENyouscript

  1. Went a-googling that Luther quote. It may be bogus. I came across a thread about it where a “Tertiumquid” responded to someone who posted the quote as fact…

    This reference floating around cyberspace as “D. Martin Luthers Werke, kritische Gesamtausgabe [Hermann Bohlau Verlag, 1893], vol. 2, no. 1472, April 7 – May 1, 1532, p. 33.”……
    This reference appears to be the work of one of Rome’s cyber-apologists from early in the 2000’s. The reference neglects “Nachfolger” from the title page, the year appears to be wrong (it was 1913, not 1893)… though maybe there was an earlier edition… and the page number was not 33 (it was page 107).

    The issue is confusing to me because the source material is in German, which I don’t speak. I balk at the quote because it is so blatantly unscriptual that I wonder if someone as studied in the Scriptures as Luther would accept it. There’s also no context given. Was Luther quoting someone else, or just being hyperbolic, or sarcastic?

    I couldn’t get to the bottom of it. Maybe someone here who speaks German could look into it more deeply.

  2. Holly, I will be praying for Ethan. It’s nice to know that he is clear on the gospel and on the Tribulation period and believes in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Notice how Satan is trying to lead him astray when his mother gave him a book by Luther on catechism? I would encourage that he throw that book away ASAP. The writings of Luther, Spurgeon, etc, are all recipes for disaster steering in the direction of works for salvation.

    But it appears like you said that Ethan has spiritual discernment which is a very good thing. I believe Ethan is saved if he is already clear on the gospel and believes it. I hope you can continue to mentor him. I encourage him to meditate on the following Scriptures that I always give to those who are young babes in Christ:

    John 5:24
    John 10:28-29
    Ephesians 1:13
    2 Corinthians 1:22
    Ephesians 2:8-9
    Romans 3:20
    Romans 3:28
    Romans 4:2-6
    Romans 8:38-39
    Romans 9:31-32
    Romans 10:4
    Romans 11:6
    Galatians 2:16
    Galatians 2:21
    Galatians 3:6
    Titus 3:5
    Genesis 15:6

  3. The “reformers” are suspect to me, simply because I can’t understand how you reform a false religion.

  4. Wow William, how disgusting about Luther. I knew his religious errors and hatred for the Jewish people, but did not know about that heretical lie that Jesus fornicated, how can people celebrate someone who does not hold the truth?

    I am kind of mentoring a young teen over text. He is like a nephew to my daughter’s husband. Long story but his dad is dating my daughter’s MIL. They have been over the house. He’s asked basic questions like, ‘what do I read next’ and a few short questions about a book’s meaning, but right now he’s reading through the Bible. He’s got the gospel right, my daughter shared with him and he believes. He actually has read through Revelation and understands the time of the Tribulation and how awful, believes in the pre-trib rapture already. He is quite the young man. He texted me the other night to tell me that his mom gave him a book of catechism by Luther and asked me what to do. I knew I was on some dangerous ground, so pray, but I think he already knew it was a problem. I explained briefly some of his problems and that he did not teach the right gospel so the Bible tells us to mark those guys and avoid them. He said he thought so. Anyways, pray for him, his name is Ethan.

  5. Holly, I agree with you that Spurgeon should never be quoted and the same is true of Martin Luther as both are flaming heretics. Spurgeon was basically a Calvinist in his doctrine and so was Luther. Luther denied that man has free will in regards to salvation and openly denied the book of Revelation.

    Martin Luther was also known to make some very outrageous blasphemous statements about Jesus Christ committing adultery with the woman at the well and about Christ committing fornication.

    “Christ committed adultery first of all with the woman at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: “Whatever has he been doing with her?” Secondly, with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery whom he dismissed so lightly. Thus even Christ, who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died.”(D. Martin Luthers Werke, kritische Gesamtausgabe , vol. 2, no. 1472, April 7 – May 1, 1532, p. 33)”

  6. Yerbae, good for you. I wrote Rokser some years ago about doing the same. I didn’t get the response I was praying for. With some they use the ‘even Paul quoted philosophers’ (from Acts 17). But Paul said, ‘one of your own’. And he was inspired by the Spirit as we know. These guys are taking a chance of making a young one who believes in Him to stumble.

    Spurgeon should NEVER be quoted favorably. He is the worst. The ‘prince’ of preachers. I don’t know if it was possible he ever knew the Lord, I hope so, but his gospel was accursed, and while he was preaching it, so was he.

    What don’t these pastors understand?

    My life was made shipwreck for quite some time by these princes. Angers me that they don’t have more discernment and obedience to Rom 16:17.

  7. Yerbae’, I am not comfortable with the approach of quoting Spurgeon, Macarthur, or other LS/Calvinist preachers unless there are strong caveats given (such as: “this quote is from x. It is a good comment, but X often said/says things that undermine the gospel.”). However, I think a watchful pastor is better off avoiding quotes from known LS/Calvinist teachers, and should use quotes from others sparingly.

    It was good that you spoke to the pastor. The lamest part of his response was that “Rokser does it also,” as if that seal of approval makes it OK.

  8. I visited a church in my area last week, which is part of the Duluth Bible Churches and Pastor Dennis Rokser. They take a stand against LS and Calvinism, so that’s why I visited them. What bothers me though, in this pastors sermon he used quotes from Spurgeon and another author which he didn’t name. So, after the service, I had some time to talk with the pastor, and I asked him who the other quote was from, and he said it was MacArthur. I told him that he says he is against LS yet he use quotes from pastors that propagate the error of LS. Isn’t it putting your stamp of approval on them? He then went on to kind of defend MacArthur, and say’d that MacArthur hadn’t always believed what he preaches now, and that he has a lot of good teachings. He also went on to say the Rokser quotes MacArthur also. He was very nice to me and took the time to talk to me, but I just can’t get past his using quotes from MacArthur, and then not being up front with the congregation and not putting who the quote was from.

  9. Jason, we’ve never had any comments on him.

  10. What do you know about Eric Liddell?

    I know that he is one of the great men. I have frequently heard his biographical film Chariots of Fire acclaimed by evangelicals. Yet every time I watched it, I was bored. There was much about running, but little of doctrine, if I recall.

  11. Jenn
    I just listened to a message from a Independent Bible church 60 minutes away from me as I continue to seek a Pastor/pulpit who preaches/teaches the clear Gospel of Grace. I didn’t listen to entire sermon just fast forward to the end to hear the punch line if there was one to receive salvation.
    here is the speaker’s gospel invitation: my remarks in ( )

    “Ask Jesus to save to be personal saviour” (asking is doubting what God said to be True of what He already Promised to do)
    “with sincerity of heart” ( How Much sincerity ?)
    “say this prayer” ( we are not saved by saying prayers. prayer is work)
    “say these words” ( we don’t say , we responded to Grace by Faith. the only response to Grace is Faith)
    “come into my life” ( when we believe Jesus comes into our Lives giving us a brand new life a New creation)
    “change my condition” ( No NO God changes our Position from Lost to found from enemy to Children of God change of condition is not guaranteed)
    ” slip up your hand if you said that prayer” (works)
    “step out come forward”. (works works works)

    what Preacher failed to say is Free Gift of Eternal Life. from my experience so far all twisted garbled gospels messages the speaker can not say in same sentence ” Free Gift of Eternal Life” as the bible Teaches

    Now could someone be saved after a jumbled up mess like that ? Yes
    could a soul go on to live the Faith rest Life as The Bible teaches as God intended ? No.. because the message has a curse attached to it Galatians 1:8 the soul is destined to live on a treadmill of trying to help God out to live the christian life while all along is saying Stop working stop trying stop being religious. The believer soul duplicates the same error in salvation Justification and short circuits The Faith rest life in sanctification by trying to live the christian life by works.
    Now can God use all the junk of our past we listen to read from and such Yes.. as long as we keep separating unto Truth in our thinking allowing The Holy Spirit to change our thinking as a by product of yielding to Holy Spirit by Simply enjoying the Lord Jesus Christ. How ? by enjoying The Word of God allowing the Holy Spirit to use the Word of God . Applying the Word of God to the problems of Life. problems don’t produce Faith. Faith ( Gods promises) is what gets put the test to fight our battles we do nothing but enjoy the Lord Jesus Christ enjoying our Salvation. Stay in fellowship 1 john 1:7

    Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    I do know for me after 30 years of basically learning scripture upside down and learning various systems of thought as a saved soul. Re learning scripture again. scriptures that had me spiritually bound up are the same to set me free.
    for instance Gal 2;20 i have that memorized 25 years and yet just learned and saw after hearing preached “I Now Live” as believers souls We Live right now don’t matter if its been 30 years or 3 days . We can be restored to fellowship by simply admitting we our not in fellowship. Can we go on and live as we please and still go to heaven still have the Free Gift of Eternal Life? sure but we can not choose the consequences God in His Love for His children may even take us out early

    I now live
    I now live
    I now live
    Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

  12. Vicki Frazier

    Yes that’s what I mean.

  13. Vicki, people can be saved in spite of error, but never because of it.

  14. I’ve heard it said that God can use His truth wherever it’s found even in the midst of some error, such as using whatever truth is found in modern, non KJV, Bible versions. People also claim they were saved reading a Chick tract, which I’ve come to realize after reading some articles on it, teach Lordship salvation or a form of it. What do you think of that? Can or will God use the truth wherever it’s found even if there is error there also? Is someone who claims they were saved through a Chick tract just fooling themselves?

  15. The Lord used a “repent of your sins” Traveling revival ministry of the Legalistic Bill Gothard kind to bump my thermostat.
    to the point of confronting elders in teachers in the assembly and getting removed from a prayer meeting.
    because i kept conronting the leaders that “repent of sins” for salvation is Not the gospel.
    Yesthe Lord used that ministry and i still can draw truth out from. But no there is no fellowship around the Gospel of Grace there for me..

  16. Jenn, that’s a great question. I’ve thought about that, but I can’t get away from Galataians 1:8-9.

    Teaching someone that the Bible is real and then presenting a false gospel doesn’t seem like God’s will. The Pharisees thought the scriptures were of some import, but not so much as their religion and bloodline.

  17. Someone mentioned Ken Ham…
    I agree that he is LS, but before I realized that, I listened for countless hours to his YouTube videos, & God gave me so much assurance of the Bible’s validity through those creationist messages…

    And there are other Bible teachers that have been a strong & good influence on me for the Lord, but lately I’ve I started recognizing LS errors in even those who helped me so much.

    Do y’all think the helpful things I learned from them could have still possibly been from the Lord even if those people have some error (on the most important issue–salvation)? He used even a donkey to speak once, right?

  18. Vicki Frazier

    True john, that can be a problem, looking at those things as evidence of salvation. I have to admit at times I’ve had those kind of thoughts. Thx all.

  19. Vicki Frazier – we are a new creation, the old is still with us, so we have two natures. If we feed the old, we will end up like the incestuous adulterer of 1 Corinthians 5, or the ones that got drunk at the Lord’s supper, and some were sick and some died due to their disgraceful and disrespectful behavior. We will be chastened as children of God, but some use that also as a yardstick to measure whether one is saved 🙂 We can know we are saved based on the fact we have believed God’s testimony of His Son.

    Eph 2:10 which you were referencing is one that Calvinists/loadshippers often use to say we will do good works, but it says we should walk in them. It does not say we will walk in them. Also 2 Pet 1:5-11 shows us when we do not add to our faith, we can actually be barren, unfruitful, blinded, forgetting even that we were forgiven. Not only that if we do not do these things we won’t have an ‘abundant entrance’ (rewards), so it’s really important to feed His sheep with His Word when we love Him. Isaiah 55:10-11 tells us His Word will either give food to the eater or seed to the sower. Believers need exhorted with His Word, but out there in the social media world I read Twitter or FB and these Pastors are rich with their own sayings or quotes of other men, but they spare or leave out the Word of God altogether. They literally do think of men beyond what is written (1 Cor 4:6).

    Just about the time I think I have discernment too, I realize it’s not me any how, it’s Him and my willingness to search the Scriptures to see if what someone is saying is true (Acts 17:11). When I spend time in the strong meat of His Word, then I have my senses exercised to discern between good and evil. Satan knows this and keeps people distracted and compromising so that the Word of God is sparse. We definitely have a famine in the land for the hearing of God’s Word.

  20. RAS – this woman whoever she is, is accursed at the moment. I just pray that the Lord will stop her mouth, or expose her to the light so others won’t be brought into bondage or kept lost. I am familiar with the type. The worship their ‘men’ (whichever their favorites are), they feel smug and superior in their ‘scholarship’ and yet they are thinking of men beyond what is written (1 Cor 4:6). They are deceivers who are also being deceived. There are many of them we know as the Word tells us it will be in the end.

    I marvel with you at the way they judge others to be saved or unsaved, never by what they have believed, but by their behavior. And that kind of judgment which is not a righteous judgment, will never be consistent. It’s impossible, for they all live by their own standards, or as our friend Ron Shea says, they grade on a Bell curve. They miss the fact by their own behavior (proud, haughty, argumentative, not showing love to others, etc.) that they judge themselves to be unsaved.

    Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned. Titus 3:10-11

  21. our postion in Christ can affect our Condition
    Our Condition in Christ Jesus can never affect our postion.

  22. My thoughts exactly. Moreover, the unsaved have troubles, too. They don’t expose the self-centeredness of lordship salvation.

  23. Jason, it sounds like the site you are referencing is itself double minded. Our faith is not proved genuine by our troubles if it were, we could not know we had eternal life until the troubles came and God helped us through them. The Bible says we can know we have eternal life based on having believed in Jesus.

  24. Vicki, it is God’s will that believers be fruitful, do good works, and be transformed by the renewing of their minds.

    The problem comes when we start to look to these manifestations in our lives as evidence that we have been born again. The only assurance of eternal life that is sound is God’s promise alone.

  25. Vicki Frazier

    Thx John and Curtis. May I ask whether salvation, which I know is by grace alone thru faith alone in Christ alone, should produce any change in a person at all? This is where some of the confusion comes in. I know salvation itself is as I stated but doesn’t the Bible say there are works He’s prepared for us to do? I can separate the two but Catholics cannot, I know since I debated them for years on a discussion forum.

  26. The psychoheresy site also has a reference to the genuineness of a believer:
    ” That is important! And the Bible has a lot to say about problems. Remember, Jesus taught that believers will have difficulties, even major ones. But it’s also really important to know that God has a purpose for them. James says that difficulties provide an opportunity to build Christian character; Peter says that our faith is proved “genuine” through troubles; and Paul says God will help us through every trial. James also warns us not to be “double-minded” about the whole thing. By that I mean that some people can trust God for their salvation, but rely on other sources like self-help books or professional therapy for help with their daily problems.”

    It exposes too much.

  27. RAS, more show some undefined “evidence” of eternal life, based on this woman’s vain criteria.

  28. The internet is a funny thing. Over the past few years there have been a handful of “discernment sites” that allow(ed) comments that I have participated in. I’ve been banned from one, two or three discontinued offering opportunity to make comments and still others I lost interest in. There is one that I currently frequent just for the conversation and on this particular one there is a woman who I recognize from one or two of the other sites.

    She is staunch in her Calvinism yet denies it is Calvinism; the old “it’s not from Calvin but from the word of God” game. We’ve had conversations. I get (everybody gets) heavy doses of Pink, Gill and Spurgeon with loads of “doctrines of grace” buzz words and definitions. She can’t keep scripture in context. TULIP lenses are thick.

    I just ran across a comment she made to an individual who happened to disagree with her about the proper Christian (she would say proper true Christian) relationship to country and politics. After all a true Christian would not vote for or support XXX. She told this person, after several exchanges none of which suggested that the individual was an unbeliever, “You’d better hope you are born again by God that should be your greatest concern”.

    “Hope you have been born again” without an inkling of how one can be sure they have been born again. No good news, just vote right or better yet don’t vote at all, if you want her to believe you are one of them…you know …the elect.

  29. This site leaves nothing unsaid.

  30. Vicki
    The back door “Works for salvation” “Works to prove you are spiritual ” when works don’t prove we are spiritual. They mix up Spirituality and Growth We need to keep them seperate in our thinking.
    They are difficult to spot because it is what is left unsaid more than what is said.

  31. Vicki, many people claim to oppose Lordship “salvation” at the front end of receiving Christ, but then insist that someone needs to examine his life for evidence (changed life, more sensitivity to sin, etc.) that he’s really a believer.

  32. Vicki Frazier

    You know I’m thinking I may not be as discerning as I’d like to think. I’ll read something and think that it sounds ok, no “Lordship salvation” and then someone else will come a long and comment that, yes, there is Lordship salvation being taught. I guess sometimes I’m a bit confused by it all.

  33. Angela, it was something I did for a Bible study, and glad it helped. 🙂

    John John, thank you!

  34. Holly, I just agreed with your list before the Lord! Thank you.

  35. Thank you for the list Holly that you have assembled and for the exhortation!! It is a keeper I hope you do not mind but I cut and paste it onto a separate document.
    Perhaps it is just me but it does seem the the number of counterfeit gospels has multiplied significantly especially since the widespread us of the internet.
    On the flip side… all that lordship salvation stuff caused me to find this website and your website which has been a good thing!!

  36. Preacher in Training.

    He cares more than we ever could. We have weapons of warfare and He has placed all of us in the best place possible. I am praying with you in agreement that the truth will set them free (if they are believers who haven’t continued in His Word, but rather man’s).

    This from Acts 17 gives us quite of glimpse of how God cares always for each person:

    26 and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

    There are so many ways we can help assure the likelihood of our loved ones and people we run across might come to believe.

    1. Believe in the power of the gospel (1 Cor 1:17-18; Rom 1:16-17)
    2. Preach the gospel over and over, (in and out of season). How will they believe if they have not heard?
    3. Shod our feet daily with the preparation of the gospel of peace (Eph 6).
    4. Pray for all men because He desires all should come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:1-6).
    5. Pray for more laborers for the harvest, for other believers to come into their lives. (Luke 10:2)
    6. Pray for an opportunity to speak, pray for others for right words- 1 Cor 3:5, Eph 6:18-19
    7. Pray for all the saints: Eph 3:14-21
    8. Be a Laborer – either plant or water what has been sown, God will give the increase. 1 Cor 3:7-8
    9. Sow seed. We cannot reap where we have not sown anything. Don’t look at the circumstances, just sow seed somehow. Ecc 11:4-6
    10. Demonstrating His power with the right attitude and focus in presenting the gospel – 1 Cor 2:1-5
    11. Use the Word as much as possible to answer, be prepared. Remember the power of the Word to accomplish what He pleases, it is how Christ answered the enemy (Heb 4:12; Is 55:10-11; Matt 4)
    12. Knowing the Word – Acts 20:23-24
    13. By our example, letting our light shine before men – Matt 5:16, 1 Pet 3:1
    14. By being made all things to all men 1 Cor 9:20-24
    15. By being prepared – 1 Pet 3:15; Eph 6:15

    These are just a few things we can do, and so working on our walk with Him helps us to be more effective witnesses. You have taken a huge step. You have seen how corrupting the simplicity that is in Christ is a subtle deception from the enemy (2 Cor 11:3-4). We need to keep the gospel clear. Don’t give up. He has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. Don’t weary in well doing. Take heart!

  37. Preacher In Training
    God will move heaven and earth to get Truth to those who seek it .

    Rom 3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 

    If i may suggest the biblical term is “freely by his grace”
    Grace is undeserved favor
    The phrase “Free Grace” carries a lot of baggage with it these days including Cross-less Gospel, Hyper Grace , Radical Grace all the way to universalism on the highway of the Gnostic’s.

    Yes it is quite a shock to a souls system to wake up to that there is so much confusion over something as simple as The Truth of The Gospel. I do believe that saved souls because of lack of proper discipleship and biblical ignorance get mixed up into all kinds of false teaching yet still saved.
    Gal 1 Paul calls them Brethren that got bewitched into a perverted gospel.
    However there is a curse on a perverted gospel left unchecked a soul can destroy themselves.
    An apostate is one who Takes the Truth of God’s Word and uses to their own advantage An Apostate can be unsaved and lead saved souls astray who seek not after and separate unto Truth .

    Joh 16:8  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 
    Joh 16:9  Of sin, because they believe not on me; 
    Joh 16:10  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 
    Joh 16:11  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 

  38. preacher in training, I have prayed for you and your family.

    We cannot know whether someone has ever believed in Jesus as Savior. The following quote from Clear Gospel may be helpful in explaining why:

    We acknowledge that believers may fall into error or confusion regarding salvation and works after their conversion, as happened to the church of Galatia (Galatians 1:6-7. 3:1). We further acknowledge that the believers of Galatia were regarded as “brethren,” (Galatians 1:3), having fallen into this grievous error subsequent to their coming to an authentic faith in Christ (Galatians 3:1-3). We note, however, that the authors of this grievous error, who had never believed on Christ alone, having simply added Jesus Christ to a pre-existing confession of salvation by works (Acts 15:1) were regarded as “false brethren.” (Galatians 2:4). To this end, we affirm that a lost sinner must, at some time in his life, believe on Christ alone, apart from the works of the law, for his salvation, and that apart from such an authentic moment of saving faith, there is no hope of salvation.

    If someone seems confused about the gospel, or is teaching false doctrine regarding the gospel, or is involved with a church or ministry that teaches false doctrine regarding the gospel, that gives us an opportunity to talk to them, and to point them to scripture to help clarify. Again, we can’t know whether someone possesses eternal life, or not. But, if they are confused about the gospel, we shouldn’t assume that they understand and believe the gospel

  39. preacher in training

    Yes, walking in the Spirit is not automatic.
    This is all making me feel incredibly worried that NOBODY I know is saved. If adding even a small amount of works to the gospel, turns the message into a false gospel, then out of my whole entire extended family and friends, not a single one of them would be saved….
    This is almost too much for me to handle.

    Every time I pray and ask God to show me if free grace is the true gospel, the verses come to mind about “if you ask for bread, you will not be given a stone,” etc. and that if I ask God to show me the true gospel, He will answer my prayer.
    The thought of nobody I know being saved is making me cry. Please pray for the eyes of my family to be opened to see the truth.

  40. Yes, knowing more about His Word sure helps, because the Holy Spirit brings it to our remembrance. We become disciples, some better than others. Taking heed to His Word is where we are saved from consequences and our way is cleansed, hiding it in our hearts helps keep us from sinning (1 Tim 4:16; Ps 119:9-11). But like Paul, even when I want to do right, I find myself doing the very thing I do not want to do. (Btw it doesn’t appear Paul was married, he may have been then widowed, but Scripture surely suggests he was celibate – which would have to be unmarried). Spending time in His Word because we want to and desire to seems to make more of a difference to me. I think on Luke 10:38-42, and the minute I forget to choose the needed thing the good part, I get distracted… Funny how fast the flesh can rear it’s ugly head (not speaking for all of you).

  41. preacher in training, a believer who is walking in the Spirit will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. And, knowing more about God’s Word does better equip us to walk in the Spirit. But, walking in the Spirit is not automatic, even for people who are well-grounded in the gospel, including eternal security.

    As to the question of marriage, I see no biblical requirement for a pastor to be married.

  42. preacher in training

    Thanks both John and Curtis.
    Yes, I’ve found that the more and more I understand God’s grace, it leads me to willfully choose to sin less – which is counter intuitive to the carnal mind which thinks that people who believe in eternal security believe in “sinning as much as you want to.” The more you understand God’s word, the more empowered you become to walk in the Spirit.

    My born-again spirit is seated in Heavenly places, in Jesus Christ! That’s how eternally secure we are! Our new self is already in Heaven with God, and NOTHING will ever separate us from Him. (Eph. 2:6)

    I have a question regarding being a pastor, and wondering what free grace people believe on this: does a pastor have to be married? Or is it simply a prohibition against a polygamist or a divorced-and-remarried man from holding such an office?
    “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;” 1 Tim. 3:2

    The reason I ask is I am studying to become a preacher, but I also want to set up a free grace church.

  43. Well John, don’t complain about whether God is fair for doing so. If God were fair we would all miss that movie it’s what we deserve. Rejoice He chose you. Don’t fight it. Oh wait you can’t.

  44. RAS, I think God predestined that I should miss that film (sarcasm intended).

  45. The is a movie coming out this summer called the “Calvinist”. It’s an apologetic not polemic film. I’ll have to wait an see how bad or dumb it tells me I am for not being one of them.

  46. Welcome Preacher in Training..
    Here is were the objection comes in from the legalist and license.
    Chris Jesus died for me and offers eternal life as a free gift apart from us doing anything but reciveing it as a free gift by non meritourous works. it is a gift and eternal because God guarantees it. it is finished.
    Now the legalist comrs in and says because Jesus died for you you should surrender you life and live a godly life. presenting our bodies a living sacrifice.
    Now that sounds reasonable BUT that is not a free Gift of eternal life That is not how we are impowered to live the Christian Life. The Christian Life is lived by the filling of the Holy Spirit application of the Truth of God’s Word through experiences of Life.
    A yeilded surrendered life is a by product of the filling of the Holy Spirit not produced by you.
    How are we filled with the Holy Spirit?
    By enjoying the Lord Jesus through the word of God Walking as Jesus Walked. Walking in the light.
    reckoning ourselves to be dead to sin and alive unto God.
    Confessing our sin (lining up with what God’s word says to be true and changing our minds)
    Presenting ourselves before the Lord as the private preist before Him we are.
    Yeild To Holy Spirit..

    Modern day and most in the passed Churchanity gets it all wrong. Plugging souls into a motivational upside down attitude of gratitude to live the Christian life. They miss the faith rest life and ride the roller coaster wich means being down more than up. until they burn out or blow up and go back to living a carnal moral life.

  47. preacher in training, welcome and thanks for your question.

    The question of eternal security being an indispensable part of believing the gospel comes down to the question of whether we believe the following:

    1. Is eternal life a gift? If so, we didn’t earn it, we didn’t deserve it, and therefore we cannot lose it by sinning. This comes down to whether we are saved by grace or saved by works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Eternal security is a necessary conclusion of grace.
    2. Did Christ die for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3)? All of them, past present and future? If so, any sin that we have committed cannot erase what He did. So, if we could lose salvation by sinning, then Christ would have to go to the cross every time we sinned.
    3. Was Christ raised from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:4)? If so, how could His payment for our sin – past, present, and future – be insufficient?
    4. Is eternal life (John 3:16) really eternal? If not, what is it we are believing in Jesus for?

    I can’t tell you when you became saved, or which of your friends and acquaintances are saved. However, I can tell you that any of them that have eternal life received it the same way: by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

  48. preacher in training

    Are only those who believe in eternal security saved?
    Because I’m certain that I was saved for years before actually sitting down to study my Bible on this subject, and then coming to the conclusion that eternal security is the truth. If only those who believe in eternal security are saved, then that would mean that I only got saved 1 month ago…
    So this is a bit confusing for me; trying to figure out if I was somehow deceived into believing that I was born-again sixteen years ago when I believed that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose again from the dead.

    Reading the articles on this website has got me questioning if anyone I know is even saved or if they’re all deceived, because nobody I know believes in OSAS. Everyone I know is either Calvinist or Arminian regarding soteriology.

  49. Google search for Pepe the Frog turns up conspiracy theories i would stay away from.

  50. anyone else notice all the peppe the frog stickers and such its not as harmless as you may think.

    “Pepe the Frog is, in fact, the modern-day avatar of an ancient Egyptian deity accidentally resurrected by online imageboard culture. “

  51. Brad – sorry for me being so wordy tonight. Today was a wonderful day just preparing and being in the Word. Searching and saving and treasuring all His promises to us. His Word has to witness with itself, it is truth. So we have to look at Scripture that says we are given eternal life, that we will never be lost, never snatched from His hand, already delivered into the kingdom, etc.

    I don’t know if this will help, I actually probably need to go back and re-edit it, but I wrote this on FB to some people who were preaching you could lose your salvation (from eternal death). We’ve already been delivered in the new man, so how could the new man be lost? See if this might help some.


  52. Brad, 1 Peter 1:23, we are born again of the incorruptible seed, and we know that seed is Christ. Where He is indwelling us, so is His Spirit.

  53. Thanks RAS, possibly I misread what Keith was saying, I do believe we’ll have differing positions in the Millennial Kingdom. And so the list, as I said includes even lack of discernment. So if I misunderstood Keith, my sincere apologies.

    My take on 1 Cor 6 is that believers need reminded that we’ll be judging the world and even angels, and here they (some of them) are joining their body (the temple of God) with a harlot. Yet these same believers he is chastising are not glorifying God in their body as well as their spirit (end of chapter).

    Contrary to what you said, I see the opposite. I do believe Paul is reminding believers of the sober consequences that unbelievers will not inherit the Kingdom, the very ones that they are going to in order to judge their disputes. The very ones they can cost their chance to be saved based on their behavior, which does not glorify God. (I think Yankee Arnold did a good series on the differing places such as Gal 5 where you see that believers are doing things that are not a demonstration of faith in God before unbelievers, costing them their souls). Our lack of fruit and bad behavior will cause consequences.

    Yes, we run for the prize (1 Cor 9), but remember, he reminds them that they suffer all things… why? > “lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.” And he continues with the fact that if he does it willingly he has a reward (preaching the gospel without charge).

    Eternity is hard for any of us to wrap our heads around, and I certainly don’t have it figured out completely, it’s part of the joy of continuing in His Word.

    As far as the question, I see a difference between inheriting the Kingdom, and the type of inheritance we receive which would be differing positions in the Millennial Kingdom (even as we see with the elders in heaven), we know there will be differences in our roles. Even so, He is faithful, so knowing there will be no sorrow there, I don’t believe there will be punitive damages, nor exclusion, but loss, which after that has happened at the Bema Seat, I believe to be over. We will always be with Him forevermore. Does that explain all? No way for that to happen… I keep studying hopefully with the right One’s approval at the forefront. In Christ, Holly

  54. Brad, every believer has the Spirit or they never believed (Rom 8:9; 1 Cor 12:13; Eph 4:4-6). Every one of us receives Him (are sealed by Him) when we believe the gospel.

    In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph 1:13-14

  55. I have read that, but he only covered a couple verses in an in-depth way.

    Great book, though.

  56. Brad, “Secure Forever” by Tom Cucuzza.

  57. Holly,

    Thanks for reading and commenting on my long-winded post. Your comments are well-taken. Let me see if I can clarify my understanding of the phrase, “will not inherit the Kingdom of God” in Galatians. I think it is critical to maintain a sharp distinction between a believer’s standing or position, which guarantees deliverance from God’s wrath in hell and the lake of fire, and the believer’s state, which affects the eternal rewards he will or will not receive at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

    Please understand that I am NOT saying that unfaithful believers will be excluded from the Kingdom of God. Every believer from every age will enter the Kingdom of God (Col. 1:13), whether it be the millennial rein or the eternal state, completely without regard to the lives they live or the type of fruit they produce after becoming a believer. Romans 8:16 and the first part of verse 17 state, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God…” Thus, all believers are heirs of God since they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Likewise, all believers are heirs of eternal life because they are of Abraham’s seed (Gal. 3:29).

    However, I do believe that scripture teaches different degrees of authority and privilege for believers within the Kingdom of God based on whether they fall away from the faith or are lax in their walk, in which case they produce the corrupt fruit of the old man, or are steadfast in the faith and produce the righteous fruit of the new spiritual man. Romans 8:17 further states, “And if children, then heirs…joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together”. Thus, only those believers who “suffer with him” will be “joint-heirs with Christ”. This is corroborated by 2 Tim. 2:12, which states: “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him”. Therefore, while entering the Kingdom of God is conditioned solely on faith alone in Christ alone, reigning with Christ and being a co-heir with Him in the Kingdom of God is conditioned on “suffering with him” and enduring in the faith. “Suffering” I think alludes to the opposition which those who take a stand for the gospel message will endure from those who teach the false doctrines of men.

    In Galatians, the believers to whom Paul was writing had succumbed to the false teaching that the works of the law are required in addition to faith in Christ for eternal life. Therefore, they had forgotten their standing in Christ and were basing assurance of their standing or position in Christ on the works of the law. As long as they remained in that carnal state, the good works that they performed, no matter how well-intentioned, were sourced in the old man rather than the new man, and thus, were works of iniquity that are no better than the works of the unbeliever (Isa. 64:6; Matt. 7:22, 23). Although they had previously laid the right foundation of faith alone in Christ alone and had eternal life, they were building on that foundation with “wood, hay and stubble” which would be burned at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 3:12-15). As a result, they were in danger of forfeiting the privilege of ruling and reigning with Christ, or inheriting the Kingdom of God as a co-heir, as would be the case if they endured in producing the fruits of righteousness that comes by walking in the Spirit (Gal. 6:8, 9). Notice that Paul had given them this warning before (v.21). In Matt. 25:34-36, the Gentiles at the end of the great tribulation will enter the Kingdom of God on the basis of faith alone, but will inherit the Kingdom of God on the basis of their works which will be done as they walk in the Spirit. Christ will tell them, “Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was hungered, and ye gave me meat…”

    In 1 Cor. 6:9, Paul gave the Corinthians a warning which was similar to that given to the Galatians. Notice that “heresies”, or false doctrine, is included in the list of sins in Gal. 5:19-21, whereas it is absent from the one in Corinthians. The error of the Corinthians was abusing their liberty in Christ, or licentiousness, rather than adding law to faith in Christ (as was the case with the Galatians). Both errors are sourced in the old man, or carnal mind, and thus, result in the corrupt fruit of the fallen Ademic nature as long as the believer walks in its darkened understanding. In the case of both, however, the quality of their works is the issue, not their actual standing in Christ.

    In the eternal state, the Kingdom of God will include the new heavens and the new earth (Rev. 21:1). On the new earth will be the holy city, or New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2) and “the nations of them which are saved” who will “walk in the light of it” (Rev. 21:24). It appears that only those believers whose works have been judged as being worthy for them to inherit the Kingdom of God will have the privilege of entering the New Jerusalem. Rev. 22:12 and 14 state, “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be…Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city”. Rev. 21:24 states, “…the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it”, and Rev. 22:5 states that those who go into it “shall reign forever and ever”.

    In Hebrews, the Jewish believers to whom the book was written were, like the Galatians, suffering under pressure from the false teachers to return to the law, and were thus in danger of returning to the works of the Mosaic law (walking in the flesh) rather than continuing in the grace of God (walking in the Spirit). Although they were eternally secure positionally, had they fallen away from the faith completely, they may not have been able to be brought back to repentance from the dead works of the law back to faith in Christ (Heb. 6:1-6). Consequently, being carnally minded, they would walk by the flesh rather than the Spirit for the remainder of their earthly lives, thereby reaping the corrupt fruit that would be burned at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Heb. 6:8). Thus, the writer of Hebrews admonished them to “cast not away therefore your confidence [in Christ], which hath great recommence of reward” (Heb. 10:35) so that they could look forward to the “city with foundations”, or New Jerusalem (Heb. 11:10, 16).

    Note that Paul taught eternal security in Romans 8:31-39, and yet he acknowledged that it was possible for him to lose his reward if he did not discipline his fleshly desires and keep them in subjection to the Spirit (1 Cor. 9:27).

    I think that the references to “outer darkness” in Jesus’ parables refer to the fate of unbelievers, particularly the unbelieving Jews, as forfeiting eternal life, and consequently, being excluded from entering the Kingdom of God, for their unbelief. “Outer darkness” does not refer to exclusion of unfaithful believers from entering the Kingdom of God. I don’t think the term “outer darkness” in scripture ever applies to believers under any circumstances.

    LS and Calvinism bring a believer back under the curse of the law so that the warnings of not inheriting the Kingdom of God apply.

  58. Is there a good book out there that goes through, in depth, all the verses that appear to teach a person can lose salvation? I know you guys have a list compiled on this website but I was wondering if any good books are out there on this subject.

  59. That’s an interesting take Holly. It’s sobering to look at the list as you suggest. Gulp! I am going to take your challenge to look closer at this topic over the next few weeks, months or whatever. I’ll be going into it with pretty much the same take as Keith unless he meant Millennial exclusion (Keith?) but I didn’t get that from what he wrote. I don’t think that not inheriting the Kingdom means not being an heir of God at all nor do I think that not inheriting the Kingdom is punishment for sins either but rather is disqualification for Kingdom positions due to unproductiveness for sowing to the flesh. I don’t think Paul is reminding believers that unbelievers will not inherit the Kingdom I think he is reminding believers that they have been qualified to be partakers in the Kingdom (Col 1:12) and to not be deceived that carnality has eternal consequence for believers who have eternal life. Particularly in 1 Corinthians 6 that’s the context I see.

    I think certainly none of the works of the new man will be burnt up at the Bema but Paul does speak of running the race and winning the prize so it’s not something he already has or already has coming to him but something to be earned. He even disciplined his body as to not be disqualified or castaway and this in the context of eternal rewards. I don’t think we are all going to have the same eternal life in many respects. I think rewards and inheritance emphasizes the part of eternal life that is unique to each of us.

    Eternity is hard to wrap my head around but I guess I have all eternity to do it but what it will be like exactly depends on what I do now. I leave with a question concerning 2 Tim 2:11-13. Paul says if we (Paul and Timothy) endure we will reign with Him and if we deny Him He will deny us. What will He deny them? I think it is reigning with Him—part of inheritance?

  60. It sure does add depth to “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace” in spite who we are but it is not about who or what we are or what we are doing or not doing but it is all about who Christ Jesus is and His finished work.
    To think of the the high priest who once a year would enter the Holiest of Hollies to sprinkle the mercy seat . They had bells on their garments and a rope around their leg so they could be pulled out if struck dead if there was un confessed sin or were not properly prepared . Yet we as believer souls receiving the Free Gift of eternal life (Justified before God) secured by and kept by Christ Jesus who freely offers to all those who believe . We can come boldly before the throne of Grace perpetually .

    Heb 4:14  Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 
    Heb 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 
    Heb 4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. 


    Click to access Growth.pdf

    “There is a form of self-rigorousness which leads many believers to doubt their acceptance with God because of the imperfections which they find in themselves.You may say, “But ought I not to have misgivings when I find my spirit and the state of my mind so contrary to that which befits a Christian?” That you ought to judge yourself, and be humbled before your Father about these things, is most true; but it is in no wise true that your righteousness and acceptance with God depend upon yourself, or are measured by your condition or conduct. To have such a thought in the mind is really to suppose that you could be in the favor of your Father by being worthy of that favor in yourself. It is simply self-righteousness.”

  62. kingdom exclusion and or a beating coming to believers at judgement seat of Christ also failure to stay under the “umbrella of blessing” “un_repentant of sins” was and still is wide spread teaching in denominational fundamental evangelical assemblies.

  63. Keith, I’d have to disagree with you on Gal 5 and ‘inheriting the kingdom warning’. The Kingdom is not just the Millennial Kingdom (imho), but His Kingdom which includes the eternal state.

    Those which ‘do’ these things, (practice/prasso) is the same loadship kind of teaching in that we (believers) don’t enter the Kingdom if we ‘do’ them. Paul says in Romans 7, he does ‘do’ (practice/prasso) these things. But not in the new man, but in the flesh.

    I disagree with Millennial exclusion, and hope to lay it out with full Scriptures so people can see why it just cannot work (contrary to many brilliant theologians like Zillow, Wilkins, Hodges etc.).

    Lets look at the list and ask, what do we practice? How much is ‘practice’? We know to hate is murder, so ? What do we put in front of God (idolatry). I’d ask, what don’t we put in front of God (in our old man)? We have never loved Him as He should be loved and can’t until we are saved/delivered from this flesh. Our new man is in the eternal state, and ‘so shall we ever be with the Lord’ (1 Thess 4:17). I can’t see us being raptured, then being kept out of the Kingdom. Once He gathers me to Him, so shall I ever be with Him.

    This passage along with Romans 1, 1 Cor 6 etc. is a reminder that those who have not believed will not inherit the Kingdom and so we should not be behaving in a manner that does not demonstrate to them our faith (also James 2). Because God doesn’t grade on a curve, perfection or imperfection and only our new man is perfect. What consequences we suffer in this lifetime and the works that get burnt up, I do not believe if I have had all my trespasses forgiven at the cross (Col 2:13-15) that somehow there will be punitive damages later. I believer Outer Darkness teachings in varying degrees are also very damaging. Only by abiding in Him and continuing in His Word will we bear fruit.

    I pray everyone will really look at context, we are already heirs if we are His children (Rom 8:17; Gal 3:29). We have already being delivered into His Kingdom (Col 1:13). We are not a servant (as in the wicked servant) but a son, and if a son, then an heir through Christ (Gal 4).

    In Him.

  64. Chas, agree. The LS mantra is “direction, not perfection.” The truth is, it is Christ’s perfection imputed to believers, and has nothing to do with direction of believers’ behavior. Directions can change.

  65. Regarding the “perfection” issue, it’s likely that anyone who holds to LS (whether they know it or not) would say, “We don’t claim perfection, but there will be some improvement.” But once again, can they define “improvement”? How much? Where’s the bottom line?

    Of course, they can’t say how much or what kind of sin reduction is necessary to authenticate a person’s justification, and as soon as the subject of “improvement” (they’d likely call it “fruit”) is introduced, we’re dealing with subjective perceptions, and real assurance evaporates. We’re back to “searching” ourselves.

    It’s a trap!


    Click to access Holy%20Spirit.pdf

  67. Brad, my understanding is that the new nature applies to every believer in every age. Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again (per-Pentecost).So, all believers of all ages are regenerated. It is my understanding that regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit.

  68. So every believer from the Pentecost to the Rapture is indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

    I was just interested in the truth regarding the new nature a person receives upon believing. Is this new nature directly connected to God? i.e. the new nature cannot be present without God being also present aswell?

    Thanks for the answers.

  69. Brad, the Holy Spirit regenerates all believers of every age.

    However, the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit is an event of salvation that is particular to the church age.

  70. Forgive me for my ignorance, but what is the church-age? I was under the impression the Holy Spirit comes to indwell every believer. Aren’t we the temple of the Holy Spirit upon salvation? What about Jesus living in us?

  71. Brad, we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit the moment we believe in Jesus as Savior. That is not the same as the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which occurs in church-age believers, as well, from the moment of belief.

  72. Where exactly does the new nature come from? Is the new nature the Holy Spirit dwelling in a person? Or is it a “stand alone” thing that God just does to us?

  73. Brad, you might ask some of these legalist hypocrites to go look in the mirror and see if they are without sin and what the odds are of them being sinless when they die so they can be saved by keeping up their sinlessness. They seem quick to point the finger of condemnation at those of us who believe in grace alone and OSAS, but they never seem to look at their own lives. Ask them if they have kept themselves sinless.

  74. Thank you very much for your reply Keith. That was very helpful.

  75. Exactly! No one is perfect. We are perfected in heaven, not on earth.

    I was watching a video of one of these legalists who said “if you have even one sin your life when you die, you forfeit your salvation and go to hell”. They don’t have faith in Christ at all with that method of thinking.

    These people (some of them at least) believe they are capable of Christ-like perfection here on earth!

    Anything that falls short of the glory of God is by definition imperfection! For the glory of God is perfection!

    So imperfection IS sin. Thus no one can truly completely eradicate sin from their lives until they are glorified (perfected) in heaven.

    Praise be to God!

  76. Brad, you said, “God is perfect, thus sinless. We are imperfect, thus sinful. So could it be said that our very existence is a sin, as we are not (yet) perfect?”

    The unbeliever’s very existence is sin because he is “in the flesh” and “cannot please God” (Romans 8:8). That is, he is not in right standing with God, and consequently, cannot please God no matter what he does. Even though he does works which appear to be good to himself and to others, from God’s perspective, he works iniquity (Matt. 7:23). Like a bad tree, he can only bear corrupt fruit because it originates in the fallen Ademic nature (Matt. 3:10, 7:18; 1 John 3:8). Consequently, his works, or bad fruit, will earn him eternal damnation in the lake of fire at the Great White Throne Judgment (Romans 3:19; Rev. 20:12) because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

    The existence of the believer, on the other hand, is not sin because he is “in the spirit” (Romans 8:9). He is in right standing with God as a permanent eternal reality (2 Cor. 5:17). However, he has both the fallen Ademic nature, or flesh, and the spirit which has been made alive (Romans 8:10) and is sinless (1 John 3:9) through the new birth. He therefore has a choice of whether to walk according to the spirit or according to the flesh (Gal. 5:17). If he walks after the flesh, he will manifest the works or corrupt fruit of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21), which will manifest as wood, hay and stubble at the Bema Seat (1 Cor. 3:12). These will be tried by fire (v.13) and burned, although the believer himself will be saved (v.15). Consequently, he will lose some or all of his eternal reward (v. 14), possibly including forfeiture of the privilege of ruling and reigning with Christ, or inheriting (as opposed to entering) the Kingdom of God (Gal. 5:21; 1 Cor. 6:9, 10; 2 Tim. 2:12).

    If he walks after the spirit, he will manifest the fruits of the spirit (Gal. 5:22-23). These and the good works which he performs while walking in the spirit will manifest as gold, silver and precious stones (1 Cor. 3:12) which will survive the test of fire at the Bema Seat (1 Cor. 3:14). As a result, he will receive an eternal reward.

    Those believers who have been bewitched by LS, Calvinism and other false gospels are still in right standing with God but are walking after the flesh because, in their confused thinking, their possession of eternal life is conditioned upon their faithfulness, perseverance in good works, turning from sin, etc. (i.e., keeping the law), rather than continuing to rest in the simple promise of eternal life for all who believe (John 5:24, 6:47), which is a necessary condition for walking in the spirit. Consequently, their works (as opposed to their standing) originate in the fallen Ademic nature rather than the spirit. They are therefore are under the curse of the law because the law, as it pertains to receiving or possessing eternal life, requires perfect obedience (Gal. 3:10). The law gives sin in the fallen nature power over those who try to use it in this way (1 Cor. 15:56). Like the bewitched Galatians, they are manifesting the works of the flesh, which will be burned at the Bema Seat, hence the warning about not inheriting the Kingdom of God in Gal. 5:21.

  77. Brad, I get what you are saying.

    No one behaves perfectly, thinks perfectly, does everything he should, and avoids doing everything he shouldn’t.

    And, since one has to be perfect to enter heaven, there is nothing else that is good enough. If someone thinks his good behavior or life change is a reliable indicator that he has eternal life, the flip side would be that any sign that he hadn’t attained sinless perfection would be a reliable indicator that he did not have eternal life. That is why fruit inspection is simply a fruitless exercise in futility.

  78. In the sense of what the legalists believe though, it just seems to me if we could show them the very many different ways a person can sin that they would realize that there HAS to be another way.

    If being imperfect is sinful, that is, not perfectly doing God’s will – then this could be demonstrated to these legalists to show them it is in fact impossible to be perfected from all sin in this lifetime? Thus causing them to properly look to Christ for salvation.

  79. Brad, any sin that we have, or commit as believers comes from our flesh, not our new nature.

    For unregenerate people, there is no new nature.

  80. The definition of “repent” has been distorted to teach lordship salvation.

    Pretty much every commenter I come accross talking about repentance defines it as “turning from sin”.

    People just love clinging to their self-righteousness, don’t they?

    They actually say their good works are done exclusively by the Holy Spirit so when you critique them for relying on their works they say “stop blaspheming the Holy Spirit!” or “these works were done by the Holy Spirit how dare you question Him!”

    It really scares me in a way.

    The thing is, is that God’s Word tells us that the reason salvation isn’t of our works is so that we cannot boast about our works!

    I think about that parable of the publican (tax collector) and the Pharisee. One lamented over his sins and the other praised himself and boasted of his works to God. Who went down justified? Not the boaster, but the humbled sinner.

    These legalists often say “you must stop sinning in order to be saved”. But this boastful works-based mindset leads directly to judging people’s hearts – which is a sin. We cannot know other’s hearts, so matter how much evidence we may have we can NEVER know for sure. So the judgmentalism produced by legalism leads the legalist to continuing in sin, by being judgmental of other’s hearts, which means they haven’t turned from their sins fully and therefore (by their faulty beliefs) cannot be saved!

    I was wondering if I could get some input on this: These legalists seem to leave out many “less visible” sins from their list of “things to turn from”, such as laziness, wasting time, wasting resources/money, not doing the good you ought to do etc. It seems to me that an accurate “umbrella” definition of sin can be simply called “imperfection”. God is perfect, thus sinless. We are imperfect, thus sinful. So could it be said that our very existence is a sin, as we are not (yet) perfect? Would like to hear your answers to this. Thanks.

  81. Brad, yeah – that message turns the good news of the gospel into bad news. It becomes the false message of “you can have grace, only if you decide you want to be good.” In other words, grace no longer is grace, but a bilateral contract.

  82. Yes! If salvation is by works, then grace is no longer grace! So the bible clearly distincts that faith and works are SEPARATE, yet they have been mushed together as if they are two sides of the same coin.

    A few months ago when I was buying into this stuff there was a website I was reading that taught:

    “A person only has a true saving faith if they have turned from their sins and are being obedient to Christ’s commandments”

    Essentially saying a person can trust in Christ, but that trust cannot save you until it has been perfected by certain works.

    The mind games these people play! Again I am amazed they cannot see what they are doing!

  83. Brad, yes, virtually everything in this life is an exchange. “Buy one, get one free,” “be good and Santa will bring you lots of gifts,” and so on.

    Satan has worked through men to redefine faith, grace, gift, and free.

  84. One addition to what I just said:

    I was thinking, if these legalists were correct, then what would I hear from Jesus on the last day as I stand before Him?

    “My child, you have done well in believing in Me alone for salvation, but My sacrifice for you was not able to cover you for all of your sins, only some of them. Even though you have trusted in Me alone for your salvation, I am not good enough, you needed to add onto my sacrifice your own sacrifices and works for My sacrifice to be sufficient for you.”

    Conversely, what would he say to the legalist (lordship salvationist)?

    “My child, you have done well in believing in Me alone for salvation and you have also believed in your works, which is a part of believing in Me. You have trusted in Me for your salvation and if you did not turn from your sins in your life then my sacrifice for you would not have been good enough. Thankfully by your works you have perfected My sacrifice and can therefore enter heaven. Good job!”

    Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it?

    Instead what the legalists will hear is “I never knew you” because they trusted in their wonderful works rather than Christs perfect work on the cross.

    Again, they seek to take glory away from God.

  85. So many people espouse plus works! It is literally everywhere! And they disguise it (willfully or not) in such cunning ways!

    I realized that the term “faith plus works” is an oxymoron. Someone cannot have true faith in something if it isn’t 100% faith. How can a person say they trust in Christ alone when they are looking at their works as well?

    I have been going through the comments sections on some common Christian websites and it is filled with people saying things like:

    “A saved person cannot continue sinning, they will begin to live perfectly in Christ”

    “A saved person cannot lose their salvation, but if they keep sinning after being saved they should fear going to hell”

    “A person is not saved by their works, but they must stop sinning in order to be saved”

    “If a person continues sinning after being saved, then they are not saved”

    “A person is saved by grace through faith alone, but faith includes turning from sin”

    I could go on and on and on and I realize I am preaching to the choir here, but this has been a very eye opening experience for me!

    What I see as a trend with these people is double mindedness. They contradict themselves but when someone points it out to them they usually respond with “I am not sure what you are getting at” before diving right back into their double mindedness.


    These people are giving glory to themselves. It is clear that all glory should be to GOD and no one else. They teach a person can out-sin God’s grace. They teach that Christ died in vain. They even hide behind the mask of grace alone a lot of the time! They link faith and works together and treat them as synonyms, much like salvation and discipleship.

    This is the work of Satan! When I was first saved I only really looked at the obvious legalism of the catholic church and other such organizations, not realizing that legalism has far more subtle ways of being packaged.

    Double think is the root of this for sure. I even read one person say “A person is not saved by stopping sin, but a person must stop sin in order to be saved”. Blatant contradictions. What amazes me is how they cannot see it!

    I have tried to get through to some of these people by showing them the Greek definition of the word “repent” metanoia. I tell them that the definition is a change of mind, but they just reply with “but a change of mind leads to a change of behavior”. Of course IT CAN but they are just ignoring the actual definition of the word and adding their own definition onto it.

    I suppose we live in a world where everything must be worked for, if you want money you must work for it, if you want a family you must work for it, etc. This seems to spill over quite regularly into the method or terms of salvation.

  86. Holly, great point about Job. I need to get in there again with that in mind.

  87. Well said John John. When we have questions, I find people often just don’t know how to figure out context very easily and when I start out with asking them what are the five ‘W’s and the how of the Scripture, it’s like a light bulb goes off, it dawns on them they haven’t asked that and then they are able to see more clearly. Proof texting, well, we’ve all been exposed to it, whether Calvinists, or WOF Arminians, or feel good ‘Christ following’ authors (who speak for God by misspeaking Scripture)…

    Look at the book of Job, the entire book is context really or you wouldn’t know who were the bad guys, good guys, misunderstood Scripture etc.

    We need His Word.

  88. Holly…another note. I love LISTENING to Scripture (as well as reading it), as it “short-circuits” the proof-texting that we are all exposed to. Listening to whole letters makes it easier to see where teachers distort things, as well as how sweet God’s goal of instruction is to BELOVEDS!!!

    Hebrews and James are good examples. The total ENCOURAGEMENT of those letters is awesome! How often it gets lost in babble over magnifying verses (“faith vs. works” or “the warning against falling away”).

  89. Holly, thanks for that picture-Psalm! I find myself avoiding John MacArthur, never have trusted him (and a church I used to go to, in retrospect, seemed to hold the same confused view of security, using it as a hook to bring people in line).

    Yesterday while loading a trailer with freight (my job), I listened to 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James and then some psalms. Talk about “whistle while you work”! I was lifted, encouraged, filled. How is it Scripture is so life-giving and yet we run to mere men to double check whether God our father is REALLY that good?!?!?! Or never check in Scripture unless some teacher brings it up?

    I do enjoy good teaching, but only if it “answers” to the free gift of eternal life.

  90. John John, I also know Yankee Arnold did a sermon on Eternal Security IS the gospel. When you shared that verse as your testimony, I thought of this.

  91. John John, praise God. One of the things I’m ‘attempting’ to do is a book review on MacArthur’s newest loadship book, the Gospel according to (Paul) – really JMac. One portion he speaks about when he has doubts about his salvation he leans on his feelings of sinfulness and need for God (something to that effect), not a word about God’s testimony of His Son reminding him. So sad…

  92. Curtis, for you. A picture I took of our Arizona sunsets.

  93. I never could figure out exactly where HH stands on LS or Calvinism? I got tired of listening to his Christian “apologetics” and his “Bible Answer Man” expertise.

  94. I wasn’t even searching for news on H.H. but it found me anyway. It is being reported that he has (may have) converted to Greek Orthodox this past Palm Sunday.

  95. Cross as a type? Liberals already think that. To them, the cross is a type of the Christian life. Lordship is not far behind in that error.

  96. Some people see Christian typology everywhere because their theology is based on typology and I am thinking of H.H. in particular. Israel was a type, the land was a type, and David’s throne is a type…if he keeps going we might find out that the cross was a type and Church is a type to be done away with as well. What H.H. does with the book of Revelation is whole sale allegorization …that is when it suits his purpose. He’s very literal on the “things which must soon take place”. I ran out of patience with H.H. long ago and I was never a listener of his show.

  97. I also gave Lord of the Rings a pass, as I lost the motivation to finish reading. Why do I mention it? I noticed that evangelicals who would not normally recommend Catholic literature seem to make much of Tolkien’s devout Catholicism. They were recommending the books for more than their literary value. Hank Hanegraaff and company once again come to mind.
    And then again, Tolkien says his books have nothing to do with his beliefs, anyway. What I had read so far was not worth the reading for me, and I yawned. I have been influenced by people who tend to see Christian typology in literature everywhere, and it seems that such interpretations are a matter of opinion and taste rather than truth and reality. And I have also been exposed to folks who have been virulently against this or that.

  98. I’ve never read any of Bunyan myself. I have been told that Bunyan wrote a treatise on free grace entitled “Justification by Imputed Righteousness” before he wrote “Pilgrim’s Progress”. The late 17th into the 18th century seems to have been a time when “Lordship” was coming in heavy against “Free Grace” (probably influenced largely by Bunyan’s PP). Look up the “Marrow Controversy”. A free grace book entitled “The Marrow of Modern Divinity” (I have not read) was published in 1645 without controversy but when republished in 1718 it was “petitioned” against by hard line Lordshhippers. There is nothing new under the sun.

  99. Jason, I would give them both a pass.

  100. Pilgrim’s Progress is one book I never got around to reading, along with My Utmost for his Highest.

  101. Here is the one from the American Official site :

    “We believe that, as a result of the fall, we are in need of salvation from sin and eternal death. God graciously provided this salvation through Jesus, who alone reconciles all who repent of their sin and put their faith in Him.”

    (Link removed by administrator)

  102. Found this on Our Daily Bread Canada’s website re/’what we believe:
    “We believe it is by the Holy Spirit that we are convicted of sin and led, through repentance and new birth, into the family of God to live and grow in Christlikeness, in trust in God, and in love for others. ”

    (Link removed by administrator)

    Qualifies for LS ? Pls advise(smile)

  103. One of the favorite sayings I have collected from here (and spiritually owned for myself):

    “Eternal security IS the Gospel!”

    I’d love to put that on a t-shirt (for personal use only), along with a bunch of other favorite sayings if I can ever get around to ordering some custom ones online. Another one is:

    “This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.”—Psalm 34

    That, in essence, is my testimony!!!

    The first one ought to be worn in a bunch of churches, Ha!

  104. “…and trust that you are a child of God solely by believing upon Him (who He is) and what He has done (died on the cross for your sins, buried and risen again as He said He would, proving He is God and has the power and victory over sin, death and the grave. Meaning, you too will rise again to eternal life because of what He has done and that He is not a man that He should lie. It is His promise to you, and that is irrevocable.”

    AMEN! That spoke life to me today! Thanks, Holly.

  105. for my expectation is from him. 

    Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah

    Psa 62:5  My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him. 
    Psa 62:6  He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved. 
    Psa 62:7  In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God. 
    Psa 62:8  Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah. 

    Psa 73:24  Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. 
    Psa 73:25  Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. 
    Psa 73:26  My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever. 
    Psa 73:27  For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee. 
    Psa 73:28  But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works. 

  106. 1kin 19 is a treasure trove of wisdom for us all not to get to tired make sure to get food and water. I would also ad fresh air and sunlight.
    Elijah ended up in a dark cave. I am persuaded that at the threat from Jezebel. Elijah could of said as the Lord lives you cant touch me apart from His permission but Elijah took his eyes off the Lord “when he saw that, he arose, and went for his life,what Jazabel said ”

    O LORD, take away my life
    1Ki 19:4  But he himself went a day’s journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers. 

    Notice how the Lord being compassionate perfect gentleman only ask’s this question after Elijah was rested and had water and food

    What doest thou here, Elijah? 
    1Ki 19:9  And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah? 

  107. Lise – you were right to question Oswald Chambers. A definite ‘mark and avoid’. On the Scriptures you have trouble with, try asking in prayer, ‘who is this spoken to’? ‘What’ is this referring to; for example, is the ‘saved’ referring to eternal life? (i.e. 1 Tim 4:16; 2 Cor 7:10), the way you can know is by asking ‘who’ is being spoken to. Believers are eternally secure (Jn 5:24; 1 Jn 5:9-13; John 6:47; 3:36 etc.). So we can be ‘saved’ from hell when non believers and ‘saved’ or ‘delivered’ from consequences or loss as believers.

    Look at context and check cross references (and context), always in prayer and trust that you are a child of God solely by believing upon Him (who He is) and what He has done (died on the cross for your sins, buried and risen again as He said He would, proving He is God and has the power and victory over sin, death and the grave. Meaning, you too will rise again to eternal life because of what He has done and that He is not a man that He should lie. It is His promise to you, and that is irrevocable.

    Love in Christ. ❤

  108. Rob, may I suggest what Jesus told us? Try to abide in Him more. I believe that means trying to spend more time/thoughts/prayers with Him but do it in liberty and ask Him to help. For me it was acknowledging Him in more of my ways, trying to trust in Him instead of my own understanding. It was also continuing in His Word. Those two things are what is good and needed (Luke 10:38-42). Remembering that He does not give us a spirit of fear is good too, so that we can answer the enemy the way Jesus did in Matt 4; ‘it is written’.

    Know what the Word says and try to trust in the truth of it despite our circumstances. Also, don’t try to ‘do’ yourself, but remember to look in the ‘mirror’ of the perfect law of liberty (James 1). Don’t just ‘hear’ but try to do with His help. Ps 119:9-11, 25, 28, 30, 105, 130, 140, 162. Praying for you.

  109. Hey Rob, I know what you are going through. Anger, depression, having thoughts of suicide. That life was me in a nutshell, before I got saved, and after I got saved I struggle still with those thoughts at times. The only way I feel any victory is by just focusing on Christ and that I am eternally secure in Him, and am free in Him. But it is different for everyone, as Curtis said. I will be praying for you.

  110. found this out this morning after hearing a Gospel of Grace pulpit saying the “Our daily Bread is in the back available ”
    so i look up “our Daily Bread” probably hands down the most read devotional there is they also have Utmost for his highest on website .
    However under Our Daily Bread statement of faith:

    warning false doctrine:
    “We believe that, as a result of the fall, we are in need of salvation from sin and eternal death. God graciously provided this salvation through Jesus, who alone reconciles all who repent of their sin and put their faith in Him.”

    so unknowingly saved souls who are using daily bread for devotional are actually hindering growth and nullifying the grace.

  111. Anger , Frustration , Depression , could also be by products of coming out of or being exposed to legalistic or license (Gnostic, hyper grace or whatever it is called these days) preaching/teaching , reading materials, CCM Music or even some traditional hymns. That are contrary to sound doctrine

  112. When its persistent anger , You wake up angry and are angry for no reason that you know of .
    it could be physical or spiritual .
    When you wake up do you feel rested ?
    I know how the Lord brought me through an angry suicidal depression but we are all on different levels of spiritual growth and the complexities are vast.
    The Lord brought me through all the mandatory christless psychology with one verse of scripture

    2 Tim1:7  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind

    If you are having overwhelming persisting thoughts that are homicidal /suicidal please get to the nearest emergency room of hospital and get check in. PLEASE

  113. The key to living the Christian life , The appeal from God by Holy Spirit is will you allow the Holy Spirit to control you ? Will you allow Holy Spirit to dictate policy to you ?.
    another key is Simplicity ” Nothing so impressive as Simplicity ”

    Going to church, praying more, giving more , reading more bible does not produce the christian life . Everything we are doing that counts for eternity is provided for us by The Holy Spirit . The Holy Spirit produces the Christian Life . God wants to show us by our failures were we our trying to live the christian life by trying to help God out in the energy of the flesh or old nature.
    This comes from Old Testament Law Abraham Covenant Do and be Blessed. Christ Jesus Fulfilled the Law Perfectly. “our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings”
    Yes the Law is good and Holy when used lawfully. Yes the Law is still in affect it gives us a guilty conscience when trying to use it to live the christian life or when doing wrong

    E87ph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 

    that in simplicity and godly sincerity,
    2Co_1:12  For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

    the simplicity that is in Christ.
    2Co_11:3  But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

  114. Okay, thanks Jon.

  115. Rob, I want to recommend to you this video by Yankee Arnold : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kh3R0_HtBI The Art Of Forgiveness – Dr. Yankee Arnold. I found this sermon encouraging, I hope you might also.

  116. Thank you for the replies. If someone can tell me how to live in such a way that I’m not consumed with worry and fear, I’d appreciate it. Right now I can’t imagine living like that. So I spend my waking hours worried and angry, and I take it out on God (and the world). How does one draw close to God and live without fear ruling his/her life?

  117. Rob
    The God of Hope

    rom 15 :13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

  118. Rob, it is comforting to know that God never disowns us – even when we allow our flesh to manifest itself in really ugly ways.

    The relationship that we have with God as believers is that we are His children, and nothing can ever separate us from the love of God (Romans 8:39).

    I would suggest focusing on Christ’s righteousness and not on your behavior and feelings. And, go to God with your concerns. He really does care (1 Peter 5:7).

  119. Hi Lise, What you say about Christian book stores is accurate. One significant example, Family Christian Stores, founded by Zondervan Publishers in 1932, was bought out and taken over along with Zondervan in 1988 by Harper and Row Publishers (a secular publishing company, later called HarperCollins). I spoke to one of their bookstore managers who said that after the takeover the stores were forced to push “fluff” biographies, theology light, jewelry, pictures, etc. She also said that the majority of Christian bookstores have either gone out of business or have become totally “Christian” souvenir or gift stores. The internet ran the rest of them out. The end of the story with Family Christian is that it has filed for bankruptcy and will be closing all of its 240 stores nationwide in 2017, with plans to lay off about 3000 employees.

  120. I still struggle with this. My life, my behavior is so atrocious, that I can’t believe I am saved. I do believe that Jesus died on the cross and his death satisfied the demands of the Law, and his resurrection is testimony to that. But my life is characterized by fear, anger, despair, desire for suicide and I take it out on God. I don’t know why I do, but I do. I will lay in bed filled with fear and anger and curse God, in my head and out loud. Sometimes though when I am spent of my rage I will feel like God forgives me anyway. Even if I swear to have nothing to do with God anymore, I still feel welcome back. I just can’t think though that God would forgive my blasphemies and curses, or that I have any relationship with Him.

  121. Thank you for your responses.
    It’s absolutely true–90% of what sits on the shelves of Christian book stores is totally worthless. I’m glad I’m not the only one who has come to that conclusion.

  122. Hi Lise, I think you have the right longing, to find comfort in the Bible. Keeping your focus on Jesus and all he has done for you praising and gloryfying Him. I like to read through the 36 Amazing things God has done for the believer. Keeping our focus on Him, thankfully taking life a day at a time, keeping our thought on things above, knowing that we are just passing through this life and its not our real home, but Heaven and eternity is that’s what helps us walk by Spirit and the not by the power of the flesh.

  123. Lise, there is so much bad teaching out there.

    Interpretations of scripture have to meet at least three criteria to be sound. They must comport with grace, eternal security, and assurance. Please see the link below for more information:


  124. The problem I have come across when reading the Bible on my own is all of the passages that I run into which cause me to feel condemned. I have very often found it to be anything but comforting and reassuring. Maybe endless hours of sitting under bad teaching has contributed to this, I don’t know.
    My longing is to just read the Bible and find comfort in its words.

  125. read book of ephesians takes about 15m
    the simplier we can keep the simplicity of the Gospel ofChrist in our thinking the more successfull we are as believers in the Christian life.
    to teach devotion first then blessing is total Law. We have been blessed with all spiritual blessings wether we enjoy them or not. To enjoy our spiritual blessings is admit we have not been.
    Everything produced in the Christian life that counts for eternity is produced by the Holy Spirit.

    one of many liberating things for me was to adopt my own doctrinal statement the one here on expreachman is a good one. With my own doctrinal statement I was able to eliminate 90% of the books, devotional and any other scraps of christian publications, youtube videos and websites.
    Some may say eat the meat and spit out the bones. That is a lie we are to endure sound teaching. that means not tolerating false or weak teaching.

    Devotinals that cause us to take a “selfie” avoid.

  126. Lise, not to sound trite, but a truly biblical devotional might start with the Bible itself.

  127. Thank you for your answers. I suppose I kept giving his devotional another chance, because so many people speak so highly of it.
    But I come away from the readings feeling as if I’m falling desperately short of pleasing God. And that if my thoughts are not only on Jesus, every hour of the day, I am somehow failing. (I guess that should be enough of a red flag.)
    Any suggestions for a genuinely biblical devotional?

  128. there is no statement of faith on my utmost for his highest and no gospel no gospel invitation.. in all my experience theese are red flags to avoid..
    even the phrase “my utmost for his highest?” God didn’t ask us to do that. in fact if a soul would make that determination I would guarantee failure.
    we are not to strive but abide in Christ.
    when i see phrases like that i think of a flashlight and were is that light shining on? what is the object the light shining on?
    i found statement below on utmost website.. i would say he is going to be Baptist indoctrinated.. his writings as well.
    Baptist doctrine and Gospel of Grace not compatible when it is “repentance toward God” ” repentant of sins” for the free gift of salvation.
    “Oswald made his public profession of faith in Christ and became a member of Rye Lane Baptist Church.”

    so i would rejoice in knowing We are saved by grace through faith and that utmost for his highest causes me to seperate unto The Truth of the Gospel.
    hear is a Title.
    Christ Jesus His utmost for the lowest.
    Christ died for the ungodly and that qualifies me

  129. Lise, I am not familiar with Oswald Chambers. But, if you find him “impenetrable and confusing,” you might want to stick with something else.

  130. Sorry if I missed the answer to this somewhere, but I was wondering what any of you think of Oswald Chambers.
    I’ve been attempting to read My Utmost, on and off, for years now. I just find him impenetrable and confusing. Would he be considered a Lordship salvationist?

  131. Keith, very interesting. I agree. I can’t understand how someone could understand the errors of LS, yet claim that water baptism is necessary in order to possess eternal life.

  132. Yesterday, I was perusing a theological website in which the writer cogently set forth the errors of Lordship salvation as well as contemplative prayer, Lectio Divina, etc. I felt like I was reading an article here on expreacherman. But then I came to this:

    In a Lutheran Layman’s terms, no, our “good works” in Jesus’ name do not make us Christians! The Holy Spirit works through the Lord’s means of grace, which are his word and sacraments”.

    At some point, I clicked on an internal link and was directed to a page within the same website which objected to the common evangelical practice of dedicating infants but nevertheless promoted the practice of infant baptism. The writer began with the declaration, “Personally, I’m glad I was saved as a baby rather than dedicated as a 10-year-old”. He then used an erroneous interpretation of 1 Peter 3:21 in an attempt to teach that water baptism is necessary for eternal life, or to at least imply that water baptism regenerates. He subsequently makes the following statements:

    “Yes, water saves! However, not merely water on its own…BUT WATER JOINED WITH THE HOLY WORD OF GOD! Better yet, it’s all about CHRIST FOR YOU and never You for Christ!”

    “Baptism cleanses and raises us to new life. By God’s grace and not our own well-meaning works, Baptism is a means of salvation through which the Holy Spirit produces faith (Ephesians 5:25-27)”.

    My comment: The writer seems to have made the common Reformed Theology error that conflates water baptism with spiritual baptism or that understands that God uses water baptism to effect spiritual baptism. Spiritual baptism is a work of the Holy Spirit as He baptizes the believer into the Body of Christ at the moment a person believes the gospel. Water baptism is earthly visual representation of the unseen reality of spiritual baptism and is thus a sign for others, not for the person being baptized (Mark 16:16-18). Spiritual baptism is instantly done by God in everyone who believes the gospel, but water baptism is something the believer should have done in obedience to God’s commands after believing the gospel as a testimony and public identification with Christ and His Church. Thus, having water baptism as the basis, either in part or in whole, for whether one possesses eternal life is an error on the same order as circumcision for the same purpose (Gal. 5: 2, 3).

    It’s interesting that someone can understand the errors of LS but yet still be blind to other types of works-for-salvation beliefs.

  133. Chas, agree. We did an article about that a while back. You may remember, but if not, it is linked below:


  134. This is a frustrating issue, especially these days when there are so many false doctrines and deadly practices subverting and infiltrating the church–contemplative prayer, dominionism, lectio divina, ecumenism, etc. There are many people in discernment ministries who work tirelessly to combat these destructive influences, but have fundamental problems themselves. People such as Warren Smith, an ex-new ager who exposes the poison of the New Age from first-hand experience, yet gets the Gospel wrong by holding to the LS view of repentance. Roger Oakland has done much to expose Roman Catholicism’s subversive agenda, but states the “turn from sin” version of repentance in his presentation of the Gospel. If they only knew how they were undermining their own work!

  135. So many compromise by quoting ‘good quotes’ by bad men, and don’t warn just assuming the majority of their congregation understands….

  136. Pulpit People and lay leaders really should not be so nieve and sloppy in their own study to think that people dont search things out. especially now with access of research information on the Internet.
    Scripture does warn us to seperate unto Truth and when we Love not the Truth We start stumbling on the inside and can not give a clear Gospel Message. invitation to receive the free gift of eternal life..

  137. Curtis,

    You bring up a great point, several years ago I was caught up in the heretical teaching of Ray Comfort. I was passing out his tracts, watching his videos, and reading his books. While at the same time I was miserable, but at the time I didn’t know better. All started from my previous church showing a short clip of one of his videos on abortion. They didn’t promote his ministry or say anything about Ray Comfort, just showed his video. But since I thought the video did a good job explaining the horrendous reality of abortion I wanted to know more about Comfort. Besides, my thinking at the time was “If my church played a short clip without giving any warning of his false gospel, then I he must be a good Bible teacher to follow”.

  138. Jim Bakker sells supplies for Christians to ride out the end times. Using quotes from a con artist is a very poor way to lead a congregation.

  139. another issue to remember when pulpits quote from someone who is still alive is who they quote may go wondering off into false doctrine or not endure sound doctrine but tolorates weak or false teaching.. then we become partakers with them simply because we quoted them..

    Case in point I like Charles Clough he is one smart cookie.. in his framework sereies from the early 90’s he quotes people that are still alive today but are now in doctrinal error.
    another one is a pulpit Quoted from Jim Bakers book when he first came out with it. how the book exposed and denounced the prosperity gospel. Then just takes up a fear mongering buy my buckets and a shovel to survive the tribulation gospel. that is no gospel what so ever. Jim Baker is now just youtube comedian fodder.

  140. the problem with pulpits quoting false and weak preachers and teachers is that is what you remember about a sermon and end up troubled.. Because thats what false teaching does it Troubles you.

    over 5 years ago I was attending a evangelical free church at the end of a missions ministry focus series the speaker quoted a John Piper quote that I can still remember if i choose too (im not going to post it) . The John Piper quote is biblically False but would appeal to the Carnal Moral belivers.
    That Piper quote upset me so much pretty sure that was last time I attended that assembly service other than prayer meetings.

    If a Pulpit does not understand the three tenses of salvation Justification /Santification / Glorification. Rightly dividing the word of God by Birth Truth and Growth Truth. With a Clear Gospel message and doctrinal statement.
    We are really just waisting time. We should only be supporting Pulpits even if only by live webcast..

  141. Chas, thanks for the additional info on the NLT.

  142. From what I read on the NLT’s site and Wikipedia, The NLT is not a true translation at all. It’s a glorified paraphrase. Its promoters have inserted the word “translation” into the title to give the false impression that it is a “updated” translation of the original languages, but it is really just someone’s subjective opinion of what “updating” should be done to the original. It’s one more condescending attempt to make the Bible “more accessible” to us dumb folk who supposedly can’t understand a true literal translation. It’s not surprising that these “translators” would insert their legalistic assumptions into the text.

    It’s also no surprise that it comes from people associated with the so-called Living Bible. Commentaries are one thing, but a commentary is up-front about being opinion. The setting of the Living “Bible” and this more subtle New Living “Translation” gives the misleading impression that these are communicating God’s Word. Very subversive, these are.

  143. I watched the video “Avoiding the Ditch of Legalism” and it has really helped me and it is so true. God wants us to live a life of dependence on Him by faith and not one of striving to depend on ourselves.
    I also recommend reading each day the 36 Amazing Things that God has for the believer listed above here.

  144. Phil,I’m not surprised that the NLT is given the thumbs up by the Billy Graham association. They teach turn from sins for eternal life, and so does the NLT.

  145. Phil, using innocuous quotes from false teachers seems like a good idea to some people, but I think it is can be extremely damaging. People like Francis Chan, Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, Jon MacArthur, John Calvin, and Charles Spurgeon get quoted a lot form the pulpit – even by people who know better.

    My wife and I briefly attended a church that seemed to be grace-oriented, but we saw some things that we didn’t like, such as ordination of deacons who worked for the Billy Graham organization, quoting MacArthur from the pulpit, association with the SBC, and use of language such as “giving their lives to Jesus” to refer to someone believing in Jesus for eternal life.

    We quit going to that church, but it has descended deeper and deeper into LS associations. The church had a clean-soundng statement of faith while we attended, but they have since replaced their statement of faith with the standard “Baptist Faith and Message.” The leaven is causing the dough to rise.

  146. As I recall the New Living Translation was given the thumbs up by the Billy Graham association.

  147. John, even in this Bible church that i attend sometimes, the pastor has on a couple of occasions quoted Francis Chan–once even showing a short video of his. None of the Chan quotes or videos sounded LS. But together with this church using ESV plus Chan quotes concerns me. Their doctrinal statement is pure grace alone, but so are a lot of other churches, some who are actually LS. Needless to say, I’m less than enthusiastic about continuing attending this current church. Besides, I feel like this Grace Oasis site here is more like church to me that I feel is a grace home to me.

  148. Brian, great advice. I tossed out my “New Lordship Translation.”

  149. If you are disciplining a new believer or witnessing to someone in LS be aware of the following:
    There are “translations” that add the phrase “of your sins” to “repent” (metanoeo) in places like Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 etc.
    This is done with no support from the Greek whatsoever.
    The popular “New Living Translation” does this. As does “The Complete Jewish Study Bible”

    Built in shipwreck.

  150. Found a fired-up southern woman that speaks truth!

    (Link removed by administrator)

  151. Alice, there were a few reasons I was so vigilant about the church that I mentioned in the article. First, I had interacted with a couple of their long-time members for a short period of time in a “Bible study” before work. Both of them seemed a little confused on the gospel, and said things like “even demons believe” and “a true Christian always comes back.” That led me to think they were hearing false “perseverance of the saints” messages at church. Second, the church is a huge “mega” church, and I suspected that it was at least tolerant of LS messages. Finally, the church uses the ESV Bible, which is a favorite among Calvinists.

    You may recall that we addressed the issue of churchianity posing as church in another article. If not, please see below:


  152. Johninnc, your point 6 states: ‘Avoid any church where there is evidence of Calvinism or Lordship “salvation.” Many churches and pastors will claim to believe in grace, but their words will betray them’.
    Thank you for putting that in, I feel somewhat ‘vindicated’ for not attending churches in my area anymore, although trying to explain why we left and no longer attend those churches or Bible studies to others who are still in those churches/ Bible studies has been difficult and challenging and I have lost a lot of friendships with those people over this issue of Lordship ‘salvation’. Because on the surface of it, they claim to be ‘Grace’ churches and quote Eph 2: 8-9 frequently but if we listen long enough, out comes LS, such as ‘faith without works is dead’ or ‘you shall know them by their fruit’ or ‘examine yourself whether you are in the faith’ and so on. They merge what Christ HAS DONE for our salvation with what we HAVE TO DO ALSO other than simple faith in Christ. They undermine/ frustrate/ nullify Grace by adding ‘works’ as requirement for salvation. People think that we are just using that as an ‘excuse’ for not attending church. Little do they know that we spend far more time than they do listening to online sermons from genuine ‘Grace’ pastors and teachers such as Tom Cucuzza, Dennis Rokser, Ralph Arnold and of course Expreacherman site. I thank the Lord for your teaching.

  153. William, you are absolutely correct that the excerpt I included from that pastor’s blog is false LS doctrine. That’s why I included it. I was contrasting the statement of faith with the pastor’s blog, to show that even when someone’s statement of faith seems OK on the surface, other things the pastor teaches may contradict it.

    That is why I led with consider the following from one false teaching mega-church

  154. John, I’m concerned about the following excerpt that is part of a post in response to Brad that goes, “From the Senior Pastor’s blog:

    Through my obedience, my Father has given me the final authority to execute judgment over all humanity. One day, everyone will hear my voice and appear before me in final judgment. Don’t marvel at this saying. It is true. This judgment will solely depend on those who have believed in me. John’s gospel repeatedly states this truth (3:16;5:24,25; 14:6). HOWEVER, GOOD AND BAD DEEDS WILL PROVE AN INDIVIDUAL’S FAITH. IF GOOD DEEDS AREN’T THERE, IT PROVES FAITH ISN’T PRESENT. THESE PEOPLE FACE ETERNAL JUDGMENT. IF GOOD DEEDS ARE THERE, IT PROVES FAITH IS PRESENT AND THEY ARE GRANTED ETERNAL RESURRECTION LIFE.”

    Something tells me that the latter half of this excerpt is INCORRECT and sounds like Lordship Salvation. Doesn’t the latter half sound like it’s saying that one’s works proves that they’re saved??

  155. Brad, Your comment – “I am still a bit unclear on the whole “a Christian cannot sin” thing. So the inward man cannot sin but the outward man still does?”

    My comment – Exactly and well said. The inner man which is the regenerate self is sinless because we have Christ’s imputed righteousness, but however the outer man which is the flesh still sins no matter how hard we try not to. We will continue to sin whether intentionally or unintentionally until Christ returns at the Rapture to transform us. The apostle Paul understood this well as he also struggled with sin AFTER he was saved and he describes the inner conflict in Romans 7:14-25 that we all face on a daily basis.

    That’s why 1 John 1:8-10 and 1 John 2:1 were written because all Christians still sin after salvation because of the flesh which is the outer man.

  156. Brad, I have some excerpts from an article we did for helping new believers:

    1. Suggest that they repeatedly read clear explantations of God’s plan of salvation. Such resources will remind them of the Biblical truth that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. This will also reinforce the truths of eternal security and assurance for the believer in Christ.

    We recommend two such resources at ExPreacherMan.

    “The Gospel” booklet by Ron Shea

    Click to access the-gospel.pdf

    “How to Be Sure You are Going to Heaven” by Dr. Thomas Cucuzza:

    Click to access how-to-be-sure-you-are-going-to-heaven-with-cover.pdf

    2. Have them learn to read God’s Word. Start by suggesting they read through the book of Galatians several times, one chapter per day. The book of Galatians is a defense of the gospel that will help new believers understand the nature of the attacks that they will face from the world of professing Christendom, and the Biblical response to those attacks.

    3. Emphasize the importance of not looking to changes in our lives for assurance of salvation, nor to let the lack of sufficient changes in our lives undermine our assurance of salvation.

    4. Warn them to avoid playing “Russian Roulette” with books, sermons, and websites that claim to be teaching Christianity. There is more bad teaching out there than good.

    5. Make yourself available for questions – within reason. Some people will fail to do things they need to do to grow in grace, or will do things to undermine their faith (see number 4) and be pretty shaky. Challenge people to take an active role, and not just have you feed them.

    6. Let them know to never let down their guard and to maintain vigilance. Avoid any church where there is evidence of Calvinism or Lordship “salvation.” Many churches and pastors will claim to believe in grace, but their words will betray them. Consider the following from one false teaching mega-church:

    From “Core Beliefs:

    Those who put their faith alone in Christ for Salvation are children of God and heirs of eternal life.

    From the Senior Pastor’s blog:

    Through my obedience, my Father has given me the final authority to execute judgment over all humanity. One day, everyone will hear my voice and appear before me in final judgment. Don’t marvel at this saying. It is true. This judgment will solely depend on those who have believed in me. John’s gospel repeatedly states this truth (3:16;5:24,25; 14:6). However, good and bad deeds will prove an individual’s faith. If good deeds aren’t there, it proves faith isn’t present. These people face eternal judgment. If good deeds are there, it proves faith is present and they are granted eternal resurrection life.

    7. Tell them to share the good news with others.

  157. Brad, you asked the same question earlier (less than a week ago), and I gave you a detailed response.

    It is difficult to wrap our heads around, but scripture does teach that the regenerate (new) man is sinless. The flesh is still capable of sin. That is in our statement of faith.I would not spend too much time racking your brain about this difficult concept, but pray for clarity if you wish.

    You might like to do some further reading at the old section of “Clear Gospel.” The format can be difficult to read. It may help you to copy the text onto a Word file. I will also warn you in advance that the section is long, and some of the pages seem a little tedious to me. See below:


  158. I was watching someone on youtube who said “if you have even one sin in your life when you die you will go to hell”. He will then go on to talking about how Christ paid for all sins. Amazing!

    I am still a bit unclear on the whole “a Christian cannot sin” thing. So the inward man cannot sin but the outward man still does?

  159. Brad, exactly. LS is self-deception and doublespeak.

  160. Rob, we have discussed that. The Bible would be pretty short if Christians just automatically engaged in virtuous behavior.

  161. Rob, very good point. An introspective person may have more personal awareness.

  162. Lordship Salvationists can’t wrap their heads around the true biblical definition of the word “repent”, they toss that word around as if it means to turn from sin (aka a work) and say you must repent in order to be saved. It really is ridiculous beause the true meaning of that word is right there in the Greek lexicons for all to see.

    These self righteous people will say things like “if you sin after being saved you lose your salvation” as if they have stopped sinning altogether in their lives. What sort of delusion is this? A person cannot stop sinning as long as they are in the flesh so where on earth do they get this idea they can completely stop sinning from?

    I read someone the other day say “you don’t have to stop sinning in order to be saved, but to be saved you must stop sinning”. Literally that was the jist of what he said, are they aware of their double mindedness?

  163. I want to throw this out there too, though I am sure it has been brought up here. Isn’t the fact that Paul admonishes and encourages the churches to engage in virtuous behavior a powerful refutation of LS? He actually tells them in effect that because they are saved, they should act like it. This is the opposite of what LS teaches, is it not?

  164. Your comment johninnc showed me I used the wrong term above. I should have said “introspective” as opposed to a non-introspective person. I think of someone who is very aware of his inner world, his thoughts, feelings and motivations. Jesus said that it’s not just our actions that matter, but our thoughts too. For example, lust in the heart is equivalent to actual adultery. So the more introspective a person is, the more likely they are to see their own falling short. I can see how LS could really make one miserable who’s is of that psychological proclivity.

  165. Rob, interesting question. I guess those that like strength in numbers would find a lot of company in the LS community.

  166. Just a thought…..is it possible that all these enthusiastic proponents of lordship salvation are all extroverts? Is it possible for an introvert to be a happy and peaceful adherent to LS?

  167. “It all started at the corner of the foundation that is 1 inch out of square and we have been struggling and chasing that 1 inch out of square all the way through the rest of the building.”

    This immediately came to mind…

    “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.”—Galatians 5:9

    Thanks, Curtis.

  168. Curtis, this is a great analogy, and a very interesting story.

  169. If i could use an illustration for us all.
    When I was fabricating Granite Countertops a template was made for the Stone cutters to follow. When i made template i was useing digital equipment to capture points of the cabinetry and walls. I would then use a laptop computer CAD program to confirm all dimensions and could see what was out of square .
    I got so honed in on measurements and what is square and straight I could walk in a room and tell if cabinety was square and straight just by sight. I would be careful when to speak unless real bad and just made the stone to hide the errors..
    That being said. I once was on a commercial building project high rise as free lance templater and everything seamed out of square and out of place and was constant struggle to make thigs right. Then one day i asked the sight foreman “whats wrong with this building that things don’t seam right?”
    His response was ” It all started at the corner of the foundation that is 1 inch out of square and we have been struggling and chasing that 1 inch out of square all the way through the rest of the building.”

    We should all be reminding ourselves what the “Truth of The Gospel” is by seeking for asking for wisdom and understanding from God through His Word.
    There is a couple of the best gospel booklets available here at expreacherman.com and a very good biblical doctrinal statement. We should be searching the scriptures by context, content, and then comparing scripture with scripture before comming to conclusion.
    To expose what is a false gospel we need to seek The “Truth of The Gospel” and strive to be so discerning of not only what preachers/teachers say BUT more importantly what they are not saying.


  170. Curtis, the problem there is that many of these men either wrote scripture, requiring the Holy Spirit, had the Holy Spirit, in the case of King Saul and Samson, or were called brethren by the Apostles.

  171. the people in old testiment were saved by faith and placed into family of God. They did not have Holy Spirit indwelling them but Holy Spirit came upon them. We of the Church Age have Holy Spirit indwelling us.
    Samson with eyes put out could be a representation of carnal belivers.

  172. Brad,

    Here’s more examples from the Corinthian church:

    The Corinthian Christian’s works of the apostle Paul’s time certainly would convince many people that they were “unsaved”. Their lives were deplorable. The Corinthian Christians of the apostle Paul’s time were living in gross sin and immorality, but Paul affirmed the fact that they were saved in 1 Corinthians 3:1 as he addressed them as “brethren” that were “carnal” babes in Christ. Paul would not have addressed them in that way if they were not saved.

    1) 1 Corinthians 3:3 – there was envying, strife, and divisions among the Christians.

    2) 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 – a Christian man was having sex with his stepmother and consequently Paul pronounced judgment on this man in 1 Corinthians 5:5 where Paul says, “hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. The Corinthian Christians attitude despite the fact that this man who was sleeping with his stepmother was one of PRIDE – 1 Cor 5:2

    In 2 Corinthians 2:5-8 we read that this man was chastened and that God had mercy on him and did not terminate his physical life. Paul instructs the church to forgive and comfort him so that he wont be overcome by excessive sorrow and to reaffirm their love and concern for him.

    3) 1 Corinthians 4:18 – there was arrogance among the Corinthian Christians.

    4) 1 Corinthians 6:7-8 – there were Christians taking other Christians to court and there was cheating among them.

    5) 1 Corinthians 7:2 – there was fornication among the Christians.

    6) 1 Corinthians 11:21 – there were Christians hogging and gorging themselves with food, and there was drunkenness at the Lord’s Supper.

    Because of their selfish indulgence of food and getting drunk God brought about sickness and physical death as punishment – 1 Cor 11:29-30.

    Scripture is clear that there are indeed carnal Christians that are saved. It’s not good or spiritually edifying that they are living in sin. God will punish them because they are His children, but they are still saved. The book of 1 Corinthians confirms the reality of carnal Christians and Paul affirmed that they are eternally saved by addressing them as “sanctified in Christ Jesus” and “saints” in 1 Cor 1:2.

    Paul addresses them as “brethren” in 1 Cor 2:1, as “brethren” and “carnal’ “babes in Christ” in 1 Cor 3:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 4:6, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 10:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 11:2, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 12:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 14:20, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 15:1, as “brethren” in 1 Cor 15:58. (KJV)

    The above list in 1 Corinthians where Paul repeatedly addressed the Corinthian Christians as “brethren” is overwhelming evidence that these are saved people possessing eternal life. Paul would not have addressed them as “brethren” if they were not saved.

    Self-righteous Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists would of course deliberately deny the existence of carnal Christians and would deliberately write off carnal Christians as “unsaved” despite overwhelming evidence from Scripture.

  173. Brad, In response to your question, “Is there a collection somewhere I can read of all the “carnal” believers in the bible, like King David and the Corinthian Church?”

    Here’s the following from God’s Word:

    1) Samson is a true man of God and at the same time a FORNICATOR – Judges 16:1. As a painful consequence of his fornication, Samson was captured by the Philistines and had both eyes gouged out – Judges 16:21, and the Philistines also degraded and ridiculed Samson publicly – Judges 16:25. Samson’s last prayer just before his simultaneous murder/suicide was NOT a prayer of repentance, but was a request to God to strengthen him so that he could get REVENGE on the Philistines for the loss of his 2 eyes. Then in Judges 16:28-30, Samson commits a simultaneous MURDER/SUICIDE.Yet Samson is listed as a Godly man of faith in Hebrews 11:32. Samson would not be listed there if he was unsaved.

    2) KING DAVID is a true man of God who committed ADULTERY/MURDER – 2 Samuel 11:1-21. This happened despite the fact that King David had over 6 wives at the time – 2 Samuel 3:1-5, 2 Samuel 5:13. God chastised King David with a series of painful consequences, but his eternal salvation was never in question.

    People in the Old Testament were saved the exact same way as people in New Testament times, otherwise the apostle Paul would not have quoted Genesis 15:6 in Romans 4:2-6 in support of the gospel.

    3) King Solomon is a true man of God, but became a serial polygamist and demon worshiper at the end of his life – 1 Kings 11:1-13. Solomon even built 2 altars to the 2 demon gods, Chemosh and Molech in 1 Kings 11:7. Molech was a demon god that required child sacrifices – a Satanic practice. (The practice of sacrificing one’s sons/daughters in the fire – Leviticus 18:21, 2 Kings 23:10) This was King Solomon. Solomon persisted in his sins despite God warning him TWICE – 1 Kings 9:2 – 6, 1 Kings 11:9-11. Because of Solomon’s defiance, God declared to Solomon that He would tear away a major portion of his kingdom, but do it in his son’s generation because of God’s covenant with Solomon’s father, King David.

    God then brought 3 adversaries against Solomon – 1 Kings 11:14, 23, 26. Then we read that Solomon tried to commit MURDER in 1 Kings 11:40. Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say that Solomon “lost his salvation” or “never had it to begin with.”

    I will continue in my next post.

  174. Brad
    the questions you are asking are outlined in the doctrinal statement here at expreacherman.com.. Anyone who realizes they have been exposed to false teaching needs to re orienent themselves through prayer seeking wisdom and understanding searching the scriptures.
    we all should have a personal doctrinal statement and remind ourselves how we are saved..
    A believer soul can be spiritual or carnal in our thinking at anytime any moment..
    we are being spiritual in our thinking when we respond to God’s Word in Our thinking.
    Catching Sin in our thoughts before sin finds expression…
    God did not tell us to do anything but to Stay in fellowship with Him.. as believer souls. By Grace Through Faith. The only response to Grace is Faith..
    delighting ourselves in our PERFECT postion in Christ Jesus.
    Perfect postion Justification AND Perfect position of Santification..
    now in the light of our perfect postion
    We are to confess our sin as private preist before the Lord.. Reckoning ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God
    Present ourselves Romans 12 :1-2
    Yeild Ourselves To the Holy Spirit..
    Under the Law of The Spirit Romans 8 we reighn in righteousness..
    we still have Old Nature.. The new man created in Christ Jesus does not sin.
    its the old sin nature.. God does not remodle the old sin nature God starts all over with the New Nature..

  175. Chas, very well said.

  176. Brad…
    I strongly agree with johninnc about the danger of relying even partially on anything other than God’s promise of eternal life to anyone who believes on Jesus. Your feelings and desires can change on a dime. A perceived “spiritual insight” that might appear to confirm that God is working with you as a saved person may turn out to be wrong or misunderstood.

    When you are resting in Christ’s sacrifice for you as your only hope, there is no need for anything “extra”. The desire for anything “extra” is itself a manifestation of the flesh. It’s a trap!

    You will bypass years of doubt, misery and wasted time if you resolve now to regard God’s promise and that alone as the only assurance you need or want. Anything else is of the flesh.

  177. Brad, I’m not sure. I would think that God would have the prerogative to listen to/answer the prayers of anyone, but I am interested in other opinions.

  178. Okay interesting. But what about standard prayer not related to coming to the gospel? Like if an unbeliever just asked God for help with something in their life (i.e. temptation or guidance).

  179. Brad, you may get differing perspectives on this question as well, but I think God does hear and answer some prayers of unbelievers. For example, someone could respond to God’s drawing ministry by seeking clarity through prayer. God may respond to this by leading them to someone/something that would help them to understand the gospel.

  180. Thanks for the answer Johninnc.

    I do believe God’s promises. It is just nice to have an “extra” confidence in the situation by clear changes that have occurred in my life. Even though I recognize those changes don’t have to be there.

    For example, the war between the inward man and the outward man is not something that an unsaved unregenerated man experiences in their life. Where the Spirit and the flesh vehemently disagree with eachother.

    Another example is, for me, in recent months God has been teaching me how to fellowship with him better. Why would he do this if I wasn’t His child?

    One other short question, do you believe God hears/answers prayers of unbelievers? 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” and John 9:31 “Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.” appears to answer no. Thoughts?

    God Bless you. I will pray for Paul Washer.

  181. Brad
    The Video I posted above Avoiding the ditch of legalism is a vid that has helped me.
    feel free to call me or email me anytime .

    Spirituality is invisible and vertical , acceptable Works are the by product . anything a unsaved soul can do that a saved soul does is not spirituality. We are spiritual in our thinking allowing the Holy Spirit through the Word of God dictate policy to us if we allow if we yield. God will not violate our volition however we can not choose the consequences. God only disciplines his children. as in what you have posted Loving what God Loves Hating what God Hates


  182. Prayed for Paul Washer and Family

  183. Socal, I have prayed for Paul Washer and his family.

  184. Guys, please pray for this man:

    (Administrator’s note: there are articles referenced in the attached link by known teachers of false doctrine,such as Franklin Graham, Francis Chan, and others. We recommend that you avoid the site, except for news of Paul Washer’s health concerns).

  185. Some believers (either in the Tribulation period or perhaps prior to it) will not be aware that they have done a great service to “the Lord’s own ‘brethren’ ” …

    When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, WHEN saw we thee an hungred, and fed THEE? or thirsty, and gave THEE drink?
    WHEN saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    Or WHEN saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto ONE of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it NOT to one of the least of these, ye did it NOT TO ME 46
    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

  186. Yes, our assurance of salvation comes from the Promises of God, from the Word of God.

    Luke 17:10

    “So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”

    Bible commentary
    Wesley’s Notes for Luke 17:10

    17:10 When ye have done all, say, We are unprofitable servants

    – For a man cannot profit God. Happy is he who judges himself an unprofitable servant: miserable is he whom God pronounces such. But though we are unprofitable to him, our serving him is not unprofitable to us. For he is pleased to give by his grace a value to our good works, which in consequence of his promise entitles us to an eternal reward.

    People’s Bible Notes for Luke 17:10

    Lu 17:10 We are unprofitable servants.

    Our Master owes us no thanks when we serve him faithfully, for we have only done our duty. The heavenly reward to the faithful is of grace, not of debt (Ro 11:6).

    “Standing On The Promises”

    Standing on the promises of Christ my King,
    Through eternal ages let His praises ring.
    Glory in the highest I will shout and sing
    I’m standing on the promises of God.

    Standing on the promises that cannot fail
    When the howling storms of doubt and fear assail.
    By the living word of God I shall prevail.
    I’m standing on the promises of God.

    Standing, standing, standing on the promises of God my Savior.
    Standing, standing, standing on the promises of God.

    What a fellowship, what a joy divine,
    Leaning on the everlasting arms.
    What a blessedness, what a peace is mine,
    Leaning on the everlasting arms.

    I’m leaning, leaning
    Safe and secure from all alarms.
    I’m leaning, I’m leaning, leaning on the everlasting arms

    Are you washed in the blood in the soul-cleansing blood of the Lamb?
    Are your garments spotless, are the white as snow?
    Are you washed in the blood of the lamb?

    Yes, I’m standing, standing, standing on the promises of God my Savior.
    I’m standing, standing, standing on the promises of God.
    Yes, I’m standing, standing?
    I’m standing on the promises of God!

  187. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Psalm 51:6
    This is essentially after salvation once one is sealed by the Holy Spirit.

    An unsaved person may feel righteous inwardly … and outwardly but will still stand at the Great White Throne Judgement, as will those ‘practicing’ Lordship Salvation (who are actually unsaved).

    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Matthew 7:22

    Who are the “many” ?

    13Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot and throw him outside into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14For many are called, but few are chosen.” Matthew 22:13,14

  188. Brad, you may get some dissenting advice on this from others, but my opinion is that looking for confirmatory evidence of eternal life, based on inward changes in your desires, etc. is highly dangerous. The reason is this: your focus is on you. If you start focusing on you, and you are honest, you will eventually see something you don’t like. Then, the same source of confirmatory assurance – you – could easily become the source of doubt. God wants us to keep our focus on Jesus and His finished work.

    We can see the handiwork of God everywhere, and we are sometimes aware of the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives, but we should never look to that to confirm that we have eternal life.

    Bottom line is that if we have assurance, based on God’s promises alone, we do not, and should not look for any evidence to confirm that we can believe Him. We should rest on the assurance of His promises.

  189. Hi again everyone. Since finding this site a week ago I have some questions regarding assurance of salvation.

    Now I wholeheartedly believe that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross for us ALONE. I also believe that a person does not HAVE to change in any way in order to be saved, or to evidence salvation. I know full well the problems regarding “fruit inspecting” as you call it. My question is about looking at inward changes that have occurred in my own life.

    Over the last six months (since putting my faith in Christ) I have witnessed some pretty large changes taking place in my life, such as hating things I used to love, focusing on God rather than the world etc. When I was first saved I did resolve right away to walk in the Spirit. So, many changes have been happening, I certainly don’t have any interest in being a carnal Christian. Is it wrong of me to look at changes that have clearly happened and simply obeserve them as being an OPTIONAL evidence of salvation (that is to say, not NEEDED for salvation but certainly worth noting?).

    Like having new desires. Being forgiving, loving, patient, joyful at times. The question I am asking is, because I can know my own heart, I am not interested in fruit inspecting myself, but can I look at my heart and see changes that have occurred there and seek some confidence from that? Keep in mind I am not suggesting that ANY change HAS to be evident in order to be saved, but these changes are certainly there, is it wrong to look at them for, lets say, motivation or confidence?

    When I first came to this site a week ago I got the impression pretty quickly that a Christian should never ever look to any fruits/works for any amount of assurance. Is there ever an exception?

    For example, I lost interest in the world in a pretty big way when I was first saved and I would see that as a huge evidence that I AM saved, but certainly never saw it as the REASON I am saved. Nor did I ever see it as something that NEEDED to be present to be saved.

    I only want to look at my inward changes remember, not so much outward changes. I believe I can do this seeing as I CAN know my own heart. Is this wrong or right?

    Your input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

  190. Curtis, You may be the one here who got me listening to Charles a while back. I went through a few series he did (YouTube) and found him very helpful. Thanks.

  191. Below is a link to teaching lessons from Charles Clough that has helped me in taking the pressure off in witnessing to others and staying out of debates.
    I have listened to a lot of Charles Clough he is a scientist and is long winded explaining away the details as scientist do he is one smart cookie .
    the questions to keep in mind when engaged in a debate to gain an exit:
    “by what Standard”
    “What is God’s Standard for Righteousness ”
    Charles Clough
    Not Ashamed Of The Gospel

  192. sadly it is easier to pick out the believers who were not carnal .
    King Josiah
    2Ki 23:25  And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the LORD with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him. 

    Apostle Paul admitted to wrestling with carnality

  193. Hi everyone.

    Is there a collection somewhere I can read of all the “carnal” believers in the bible, like King David and the Corinthian Church?

  194. Yes, praying for you Will. Often when you pray for others in the midst of your trials breakthroughs occur.

    He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Romans 8:32

    You can pray for me too … I’m legally blind. But here is God’s Word for you plain and simple:

    And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

    For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29

    Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    Romans 8:30

    But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 1 Peter 5:10

    We are an imminent shout, voice and trump away from release to Glory.

    Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:14


  195. William
    praying for you and pondering somethings would like to share

    with all you are going through at this time
    “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:”
    By enjoying the Lord Jesus the God of our Salvation through His Word Allow the Holy Spirit to go to battle for us We simply rest by Grace Through Faith.

    1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 
    1Pe 3:16  Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 

    your wife and relation to your wife is the second most important take her out for Dinner or make her dinner. Tend to her..

    you should leave youtube and social media alone at least for a time or season. False doctrine gets me upset as well ( I cant handle it) keep in mind there are internet trolls that is their self imposed mission in life just to stir something up (doctrine of devils) and get you upset (whatever it takes) that is their joy they have no interest in learning. Don’t allow them to draw you out into an debate. Don’t answer the wrong question’s.
    That’s what I respected about Jack Weaver who is now in Glory he never allowed anyone to debate nor did he debate himself but used the sword of the Spirit or rather the Spirit used him as he yielded. I have yet to meet another soul like him neither do I expect to.

  196. Brad, scripture teaches that believers can still sin. Scripture also teaches that if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Suppressing truth and allowing the flesh to control us are opposed to walking in the Spirit. Following is an excerpt from our statement of faith on this topic:

    A child of God has two births; one of the flesh, the other of the Spirit, giving man a flesh nature and a Spirit nature. The flesh nature is neither good nor righteous. The Spiritual Man does not commit any sin. This results in a warfare between the Spirit and the flesh, which continues until physical death, or the return of the Lord. The flesh nature of the man does not change in any way with the new birth, but can be controlled and kept subdued by the new man as the believer is obedient to the Lord through His Word. John 3:3-7; Romans 7:15-25; Romans 8:8; Galatians 5:17; I John 3~9; I Peter 1:23; I John 5:18; I John 1:8.

    Most of our commenters believe that 1 John 1:9 instructs believers to continually confess their sins to stay in fellowship with God. As such, the confession of sin would be an acknowledgment that we had allowed our flesh to manifest itself.

    There are several interpretations of 1 John 1:9 that I have come across that are consistent with grace, including:

    1. It is written to believers, and is a reference to their acknowledgement, in having come to Christ for eternal life, that they were sinners in need of a Savior. It does not relate to needing to confess sins on an ongoing basis to maintain fellowship.

    2. It is written to believers, and refers to confessing sin as a necessity for maintaining fellowship, or at least close fellowship, with Christ.

    3. It is written to nonbelievers who do not understand that they are sinners, in need of a Savior. If they are going to come to Christ for eternal life, they will have to come to the realization that they are sinners, in need of a Savior.

    4. It is written to both nonbelievers and believers. For nonbelievers, it is a call for acknowledgement that they are sinners in need of a Savior. For believers, it is either a call for the ongoing confession of sins or a continued acknowledgment that they have not reached a state of sinless perfection.

    We have had extensive discussion of this topic at Expreacherman, and our commenters have registered their views as to their interpretations of 1 John 1:9, together with their reasons for coming to those interpretations.

    I do not want to start that discussion afresh.

    For a good overview of that discussion, start with the first link and finish with the last link below:



  197. Brad Welcome to an Oasis of Grace
    you are not alone in your testimony , “doctrines of devils;” Legalistic Teaching , The systematical thought process of Calvinism I ended up taking doctor prescribed anti depressants and had 2 mental breakdowns . Starting August 2010 The second was after a legalistic “repent of sins” revival ministry when I confronted the IFCA church that was not the gospel that was presented from the “revival ministry” I knew what i heard was not a correct gospel then a short time later I found expreacherman
    I’m of the opinion as well There is something uniquely different about the KJV in the sentence structure the cadence that gets lost in other translations
    avoid the website you posted , that is a fear mongering “spirit of fear” website even though the gentleman does post some good articles. The best way to fool a person is to give them something good along with error.

    personally what has brought the most peace and mental calm to me is The clear Gospel of Grace Teaching and Preaching a clear doctrinal statement The doctrinal statement here on expreacherman is biblically sound but you should search the scriptures on your own to “prove all things”

    below i posted a link to Avoiding the Ditch Of Legalism he does preach from the NKJV but most all times refers back to KJV as to why the Translation.

    And Yes The Lord has restored my soul as well there is healing from His Holy Word of Truth to give us “sound mind” thinking.

    1 Tim4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    Avoiding the Ditch Of Legalism

  198. So, for the believer, it is no longer he who sins, but just his flesh? John tells us that we can still sin though. Why would we need to confess our sins if it is no longer us who commits them?

    Thank you for the material you linked also.

  199. Brad, I agree that Satan wouldn’t do anything to disrupt the beliefs of an unsaved person. Yet, I think God continues to draw nonbelievers, whether they think they are saved, or not.

    I like the KJV too, but do not consider it to be perfect. See article below from Tom Cucuzza:


    Please find below article exposing Spurgeon:


    Spurgeon is bad news.

    Please note that we have a “search” feature, with which you can look up some of these things.

    You are correct that our new nature does not sin (see also 1 John 3:9), yet our flesh still does. Not a contradiction, but an affirmation that we still have a flesh (see Romans 7:25).

    The outward man, I think, is our flesh, and our inner man our new, sinless nature. Please see our statement of faith, section 9.

  200. Thank you johninnc.

    I have come up with a theory through this experience. Satan only wants those who actually believe the truth (Christ) to doubt and worry. In another way, why would Satan want a person to doubt if that person is presently believing in a delusion? I look at the world and all of it’s evil deceptive religions and I think, these misled misguided people Satan does not seek to attack with doubt, but rather encourage them in their delusions with comfort and peace. Does that make sense? Satan comforts the deluded and attacks the truthful.

    Also I have a 1611 King James Bible and love it. I do believe the newer translations err in ways. I am not exactly strong on that topic though just a personal opinion. Before I was saved I used to be a big “new ager”. I understand how the “conspiracy theory” world can lead a person down a false path because I have been there myself. I had a major mental breakdown a couple years ago because of it. I am so grateful to God that he found me in all of my sin and regenerated my spirit.

    I don’t know much about Charles Spurgeon though many sources I have been reading the last few months have constantly quoted him. Can you provide me some further reading about him?

    I still find myself struggling with legalistic thoughts, but they seem to lessen by the day.

    I have a question. In Romans 7:17 seems to mention that a believer no longer sins “Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” Is that true? And if so doesn’t it contradict 1 John 2:1, which says “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”?

    What are the proper distinctions between the inward man and the outward man? As mentioned in 2 Corinthians 4:16, “For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.”

    I myself have personally found a very clear disagreement or “war” between what I inwardly want to do versus what my flesh or “members” want to do, since being saved.

    God bless you all.

  201. Glad to see you here Brad, I will pray for you. Yes, Johninc is right, good decerment is needed when on that site, it is also anti-Semitic. However, I too found that site when I was going coming out of the snared of Lordship Salvation back in 2012, it was there that I found a link of Ray Stanford’s book Personal Handbook for Evangelism which led me to Jack Weaver( the founder of this site, who is now the Lord). So God used it as a way to find this site. There are some good articles there but I never share their stuff because I don’t want someone weak or new in the faith get snared in some of the bad doctrine taught there. Just keep read the Bible as much as possible and read the articles and comments on this site as much as you can, I have been blessed and grown so much since I found this site almost 5 years ago.

  202. Brad, welcome.

    Yes, Satan loves to sow seeds of confusion in believers. Know and remember that it is never God who is trying to confuse you. I have prayed for you to grow in grace.

    As for the website you mentioned, I don’t like it. It features lots of article by David J. Stewart, who I would not recommend, is virulently KJV only, promotes Charles Spurgeon as a great preacher, and seems to be focused on a lot of conspiratorial-type conjecture.

  203. Hi everyone. First time poster here.

    I originally believed the true gospel of faith alone, but then after a few months legalism started creeping into my beliefs. I first believed 6 months ago. I was raised Catholic so I had to overcome some major legalistic hurdles at first but thanks to God’s authoritative Word the truth was made clear to me. I remember a few days after I first believed a peace I had never felt before just suddenly filled me. It was like the first time ever I was spiritually alive. For the last couple months I have fallen back into the sins I did so much before I was saved. Alcohol and sexual immorality. I had begun focusing on my works and therefore had much worry over whether I was saved or not. In recent weeks I have been praying more than I ever have before for God to show me the truth and correct me in any way I might be erring. It appears he has done that. I fell into the trap of lordship salvation and calvinism. It has been a very confusing time for me but God’s Word has corrected me in my mistakes. I still pray every day that God shine His light upon any lies I might still be believing in. I am happy that I found this website (and others like it) it has reminded me of the very same gospel I first believed in half a year ago. Satan keeps accusing me when I sin saying things to the effect of, “look at these things you have done, how could God ever accept you? Just give up it’s hopeless” but by the grace of God I have pressed forward. I don’t have anyone in my life (besides God of course) who I can talk to. My mother is a Catholic and my dad seems to be one of those “accepting of all religions and viewpoints” type of person. All the friends I used to have I have no longer. I want to do God’s will and preach His word but doubt and confusion has crippled me. Everytime I would try I would just think “what is the point? I don’t even know if I am saved”. Through this experience I understand why free grace is the truth, because if we spend our lives looking at our works instead of at Christ’s works on the cross, then there will always be doubts and those doubts can disarm a Christian in their walk with Christ. I hate sin so much. But I thank God because I see the sanctification happening in my life. Thank you all for your wonderful, scripturally accurate posts here it has been a blessing in this time of my life.

    I have been reading jesus-is-savior.com the last few days. They appear to proclaim the true gospel too. I was wondering what you guys think about that website if you have ever visited it?

    Please pray for me that I may be delivered from ALL evil deceptions. It appears that Satan has a larger grip on this world than I even thought. God bless you all.

  204. William,

    I am praying for you and your family also.

  205. William,

    My heart breaks after hearing what you and your family are going through. I will pray for you and your family and continue to stand for the pure, simple Gospel.

    Bryan R.

  206. Jesus said, “Ask and it will be given to you, seek and you will find, and knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, everyone who seeks finds, and to everyone who knocks the door will be opened” (Matt. 7:7-8). He was speaking to Jews in Israel . God doesn’t want that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (1 Tim. 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9) and will grant salvation to anyone who seeks it, without prejudice.

    Moses’ conveyed the Torah to the people (which the ‘Perushim’/Pharisees embellished/added to/made ‘a fence’ around:

    Deuteronomy 6:25King James Version (KJV)
    25 And it shall be our righteousness, IF we observe to do ALL
    these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.

    For a Jewish person, to believe on Jesus as the Divine Messiah was to forsake the teaching of the Pharisees which was work based. Jesus did not give the Jewish people any hope when it came to the teachings of the Pharisees ….

    Matthew 5:20
    For I say unto you that unless your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Exceed? You mean that even the righteousness of the Pharisees is not sufficient to ‘attain’ Heaven? Correct. So then which one of you exceeds their righteousness? None … except Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMaschiach)
    who is “Yahawah Tzidkeinu” (Hebrew), ‘the LORD our Righteousness …

    In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is HIS name whereby HE shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah 23:6

    Jewish and/or Gentile must possess (not work toward) the same righteousness that God Himself has in order to enter Heaven for Eternity.
    A born again Jewish person and a born again Gentile (both members of the ‘one new man’ have the same righteousness as God Himself … it is imputed to them instantaneously when they are born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit :

    2 Corinthians 5:21
    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    When the Divine Messiah Yeshua HaMaschiach (Jesus Christ) died on the Roman cross, He put to death Lordship Salvation (salvation by works):

    Look at these three scriptures below written to Jewish believers (which LS proponents do not know what to do with ) ….

    How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from DEAD WORKS to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:14

    Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from DEAD WORKS and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
    Hebrew 6:1 – 2

    For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Hebrews 4:10

    And for all believers, for the ‘one new man’ ….

    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    Ephesians 2:10

    (Berean Literal Bible)
    For we are His workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works
    which God prepared beforehand
    that we should walk in them.
    Ephesians 2:10


  207. Praying William

  208. “Repent and be baptized” .. The Jewish belivers were to change their minds about religious works, Their traditional rituals as the way to access God and embrace Christ Jesus as their only way To God.. the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob..

  209. William, I am praying for you and your family and the difficulties you are experiencing with your work, neighbors, and your son’s marriage.

  210. Holly,
    I’m trying to understand how being a Mid-Acts Dispensationalist demands a specific definition of repentance different from the one you hold (which I do as well). I’ve heard mid-Acts teachers, such as Richard Jordan, speak on repentance and use a definition that is consistent with your own (change of mind). I’ve certainly heard them say that certain elements of the NT are only for the Jews, and I’d agree. So, in this case it is not who repentance is for, but what is the object of repentance. For example in Acts 2, Peter’s command to “repent and be baptized” is directed at a specific audience (v.5,11,14,29,36).

  211. The Greek word metanoeo is translated into English as repent. It literally means to change one’s mind.
    When John the Baptist told his listeners to repent and be forgiven (Luke 3:3) he was trying to get them to change their minds about their need for a savior.
    In Acts 2:36 Peter was persuading his listeners to change their minds about who Jesus is. His listeners were Jewish and believed that salvation came through keeping the law rather than believing in a ‘person’. They needed to change their minds about Jesus.

    Often non believers both Jewish and Gentile , don’t believe that they’re sinners and therefore don’t feel the need for a Savior. Only after they change their minds about sin can they become receptive to the idea of being saved. The only clear precondition for salvation the Bible gives them is to “believe in the One He has sent.” (John 6:28-29). He has already taken care of everything else.

  212. So true Holly.

    James 1:8King James Version (KJV)
    8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

    Unstable on the blood of Christ. Unstable on the mark of the beast. Unstable on the gifts of the Spirit. Unstable on grace. Unstable on works.

    The Bible does say we’re saved by grace through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). It says we were included in Christ from the moment we believed and God has put His mark of ownership on us and His Spirit in our hearts as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance (2 Cor. 1:21-22, Ephesians 1:13-14). It says a righteousness from God has been imputed to us because of our belief in what Jesus did for us at the cross. It says there is no difference in people for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but we are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus (Romans 3:21-24). This last verse tells us that the appropriate name for what we believe is “free grace”. JMac does not really ‘believe’ this. His problem is his faith is in another Jesus. With his intellect and erudition, that … is truly frightening.

    At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Matthew 11:25

  213. Dear Brothers and Sisters in the Faith,

    Please pray for me and my family. We’ve been experiencing relentless attack from Satan that has been bombarding us for the past several weeks. It happens when I’m up on YouTube engaging in debates with people where I expose and refute Calvinism/Lordship Salvation. I recently made some posts (not video, but comments) where I reveal where each point of the Calvinistic “TULIP” originated from, that is, from the false teachings of Augustine from his heretical writings entitled, “City of God” which has spread to many of the “confessions of faith” which comprise of the whole system of Calvinism.

    I have been posting comments that show that Calvinism is basically Augustinianism refined by John Calvin and that these false teachings have spread like a malignant cancer within mainstream Christianity. I noticed that my posts have stirred up anger among staunch Calvinist viewers on YouTube. All of them accuse me of being a “liar”, “heretic”, “hater of God”, “promoter of a man centered gospel”, “unsaved reprobate”, etc, etc.

    Satan has been attacking us in these ways:

    1) Our next door neighbors have become our enemies spreading gossip.
    2) My wife has been suffering from chronic insomnia. She only gets only a couple of hours of sleep every night. She has become discouraged and has fallen from the faith.
    3) My son’s divorce is lagging on as his ex-wife is making all kinds of false accusations and lies against us and him. It turned out that she was a false believer as she rejects what we believe in which is faith alone in Christ alone apart from works. In reality, she was a blatant liar and a con artist. A court trial seems imminent.
    4) My son’s co-worker has been bullying him in the workplace which has resulted in loss of work hours.
    5) My co-worker has become my enemy as she has been trying to pass her work responsibilities onto me. I had to stand up one day and told her off right to her face. I only work part-time (4 hours), but she works 8 hours and is a very lazy worker. She is the type of person who is involved in what I call “behind the curtain” politics.

    Please pray for us. Thanks.


  214. Anon – JMac emphasizes the fact he believes it is not of works, then proceeds to give a list of works. People will often defend him by stating he does not add works to the gospel because he says he does not, but they do not examine what he actually says.

  215. Joel, the definition for repentance for Mid-Acts would matter as follows: They usually say repentance is only for the Jews. So if we understand repentance to = a change of mind/thinking differently, then how is that not meant for the Gentiles? Therefore, I can only conclude their definition for repentance may not be the same as mine 🙂 Hope that helps explain.

  216. No performances of any works ever saved or ever will save … ever.

    “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” —Romans 4:5

            The Word of God proclaims that eternal life is obtained minus good works, i.e., works of self-righteousness. This Scripture refutes Lordship Salvation. This Scripture refutes some Pentecostals, who teach that salvation can be lost if we do bad works.  Jesus clearly stated in John 6:37, “…him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

    What a wonderful statement… BUT TO HIM THAT WORKETH NOT!
     So … are there actually many imposters today behind America’s pulpits, like John MacArthur, deceitfully teaching lost sinners that works must accompany faith ? Or is he, Paul Washer, Martha Mac (of SO4J) and Raymond Comfort correct? In John MacArthur states that obedience is ‘an integral part of saving faith.’ Indeed, obedience is bound up in the very ‘definition of faith’ being a ‘constitutive element in what it means to believe.’ 
    MacArthur is in e r r o r . He needs to believe Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 4:5 Faith alone in Jesus alone via Grace alone equals His imputed righteousness. This constitutes His Holiness which is also imputed …. and without this Holiness without works ? ……..
    Hebrews 12:14King James Version (KJV)
    14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

    Maranatha Lord

  217. Yes. It also shows a complete misunderstanding of the Free Grace Gospel Message, which can only really mean one thing?
    The person is deceived and is believing in ‘ another Jesus ‘ ? Are they just a ‘christian’ “gone wrong” , misunderstanding a peripheral issue which has nothing to do with their salvation? …. or will they miss the rapture, enter the Great Tribulation and not be beheaded by antichrist … and end up in the Lake of Fire? Is their ‘salvation’ an issue here? If Jesus Christ and Paul the Apostle preached Free Grace …. then …. :

    7which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse! 9As we have said before, so now I say AGAIN If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you embraced, let him be under a divine curse!… Galatians 1:7-9

    4For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily. 5I consider myself in no way inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6Although I am not a polished speaker, I am certainly not lacking in knowledge. We have made this clear to you in every way possible.…
    2 Corinthians 11:4-6

    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.  For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.  John 1:14

  218. ALice, I agree. Anything that teaches that we should look to ourselves, rather than to Jesus, for evidence of righteousness is false teaching.

  219. I have been taught in the past that one of the ‘marks of true believer’ based on 1 John is that his/her lifestyle will be marked by ‘more obedience than disobedience’.
    That is a very subjective statement: who is to decide if my obedience is ‘more’ than my disobedience? What about all the sins I have committed in my ignorance and not even realised what I said/did/thought was wrong in God’s eyes? What about the ‘good’ that I knew to do and failed to do it, sins of omission? James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
    Once again it is another attempt to look at my performance in order to give me assurance of salvation rather than looking to Christ and His finished work on the cross alone. Satan’s attempt to get my eyes off of the Lord Jesus Christ and ‘examine myself if I am in the faith’ using Bible verses mishandled and misunderstood to cause me to doubt my salvation.

  220. Curtis, im aware of the mid acts. I was confused by how Calvinism was mentioned in conjunction with this, Calvinist are most likely some form of preterism. Holly explained.

    I didn’t realize there were mid acts dispensationalists who were resorting to these tactics to defend their view. Not sure how a mid Acts view and a particular definition of “repent” correlate.

  221. Joel, thanks for asking, no, what I meant is they use proof texts and they won’t address the Scriptures that clarify other Scriptures, they just flat out ignore them. In that regard it reminds me of some I have dealt with that are mid to latter Acts dispensationalists. Either that or they answer the Scripture with another question.

  222. The Hyper Dispensationalist Joel . also called Mid Acts Dispensationalist
    its just another System of Faith, System of Thought

  223. Holly, I’m confused. You say that Calvinist claim that there is more than one Gospel?

  224. John, thank you, the condescending part is something I have dealt with often from them, probably the best word to describe it. I had one come to my site to comment, stating he had read my comment over here. I told him I’d answer him once, because my experience with most has been very similar to Calvinists, in that they won’t address that all the apostles preached the same gospel, and it is stated so in the chapters they often use to prove differently. They (in my experience) have not been willing to acknowledge those Scriptures and it usually ends up badly unfortunately. The pastor that split up the fellowship here locally would not acknowledge that there is such a think as partial fulfillment and future fulfillment.

  225. “Mini accusers of the brethren” is exactly right Holly. And they can’t see that telling a struggling brother or sister that they “never ‘really’ believed” does not point them back to Christ but only father into “do I really believe this time”. Show them passage after passage where believers can and do fail, give them example after example showing that one cannot believe something to be true if they “really” think it is false. Then when the text fails to verify their dogma they accuse you of “lacking understanding from God, as He has given to me”. It really gets quite mystical and can’t be verified.
    Nipping at the heels is not leading or feeding the sheep. But that’s how they see God drawing, by overwhelming sovereign force.

  226. Kate, I agree that Ken Ham is LS. If anyone has to give up sins to be saved, then everyone does. That would mean everyone is saved by grace plus works, which we know is false.

  227. katmazdobelieve

    Yesterday my mother called. She was fishing for me to attend a Christian concert at the AoG in my small town.
    Earlier in the day Ken Ham posted a status which read, “Why are we dealing with the gay “marriage” issue? “God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity…because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie” (Romans 1:24).”
    My mother begins to quiz me about the post. “Does Ken Ham not believe that a gay can be saved?” I said that he is a LSer and domionist and he is getting worse especially associating with the likes of Ray Discomfort.
    She tells me that isn’t true, that all they have to do is repent of their SIN and then they can be saved.
    It’s indicative of the state the “body” is in within churchanity.

  228. Holly, I know that scripture unequivocally teaches salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, and I know that fruit inspection is worthless in terms of determining whether or not one has eternal life.

    However, for those who are bent on examining evidence of eternal life based on fruit inspection, I always come back to the same thing: is your life PERFECT? If not, then what, short of perfect, is acceptable for evidence of eternal life?

    Regarding hyperdispensationalists, we get them here from time-to-time, but often quickly cut them off, because they can be divisive, condescending, and in many cases, they are just wrong.

  229. Johninnc – the ‘show the fruit’ crowd really struck a cord with me for a number of reasons. The ‘church ladies’ in my past that knew I was never going to live up to their ‘show the fruit’ meter — so thankful the Lord showed me He was the one who was righteous, not anything of myself.

    But I’m seeing something scary in this hyperdispensationalist crowd, there is a ‘you haven’t arrived’ mentality, they use terms like, ‘you don’t know how to rightly divide Scripture’, or ‘you just haven’t come to an understanding of Scripture yet’. If you don’t do as they do regarding not celebrating Christmas, or not drinking wine, or not doing anything that they have named pagan, then you are not ‘in fellowship with them because you are walking in the flesh’ (from the recent teacher’s site).

    If they find that there proof texts don’t convince you, then they may say that you aren’t teachable, or that you have a Jezebel spirit (this seems to be a favorite lately). This last pastor who broke up a local fellowship says we are not in the New Covenant, that we were only forgiven for past sins, etc..

    They love to cite that certain things have not transpired in the New Covenant, and that it was made with the House of Israel and the house of Judah. Therefore, it couldn’t be that the Gentiles are part of the New Covenant, and the New Covenant couldn’t have commenced (even though dedicated with His blood under the cross, and even though Paul said they were able ministers of the New Covenant/Testament).

    Never mind what Peter said (under the inspiration of the Spirit) regarding what was happening on Pentecost, was what the prophet Joel had spoken about (Joel 2/Acts 2). Obviously we know that certain things in this prophecy have not transpired, just as Jesus who in Luke 4 read Isaiah 61:1-2a, and yet he stopped there in the middle, saying these things had been fulfilled in their presence. However we know there is a future fulfillment in the Day of the Lord. We also know there is more to be fulfilled from Joel’s prophecy. We also know the Jews only saw one coming in prophecy but there is two, at a future time.

    But the attitude of all of these is one of being puffed up against other people, thinking of men beyond what is written, willing to defend men over God’s Word. Willing to attack other believers (if they are one) instead of being humbled under His mighty hand and to each other.

    I am so saddened seeing what we knew and were told would happen in these last days, not surprised, just grieved. Many deceivers, many deceived. Families turning against each other, husbands against their wives, sisters and brothers not talking, divorces, abuse, etc. This country is a good example of the mayhem the enemy loves to create and it’s only going to get much worse.

    The prophets prophesy lies and the people love to have it so. Hollywood puts on a movie like ‘The Shack’, churches do ‘studies’ on the book ‘the Shack’ because they love to tickle their itching ears. I keep praying for them, I have compassion for them, even and most especially the really angry, bitter and hateful abusers, because if they do not know the Lord, 2 Thess 1:6-10 always comes to mind as what they are facing also imminently.

  230. RAS – I have had interesting conversations with Calvinists, especially the Calvinists who are Baptists. I’ve been called names and told to shut my trap and all sorts of other things I’ve shared with you all here.

    Today my friend was sharing (over the phone) how she and her mom tried a new church last week, (small) but she asked an elder about the tracts they were using since it used ‘repent from sin’. He told her that she was arrogant and holier than thou. Her 90 year old mom said my friend was very humble in her approach, she even asked him if he really believed that about her, and he said he did. She thanked him for his honesty and sat down. After the service this elder also brought the pastor with him so that they could tell her how wrong she was. When she asked if she could show him some Scripture, he said no. He’d say one thing, she’d answer with the Word, he said he didn’t want to hear it.

    They saw the pastor and elder go back down the aisle laughing together, holding up the tract saying ‘as if Billy Graham would get it wrong’…

    She shared with me the hurt she felt, because she’d never had a pastor treat her that way. It’s a good thing, but I know it doesn’t feel good when you are in the midst of it.

    We have also suffered because of hyperdispensationalism and some of the comments from the crowd there can be just as vicious. They too (not all) see repent as meaning repenting from sin, and that’s why they think it’s ‘just for Israel’ and repentance is ‘not for the church’. A woman told me a couple of days ago (when answering her from Scripture about why we were of the same body (Jews and Gentile believers), she said I was a non believer and I didn’t believe the Bible and was blinded. Then proceeded to block me, either that or erased the conversation. So I am seeing common ground with these doctrines and their followers as well as their leaders. I can think of a number of ‘pastors’ who are out there being abusive with those they consider ‘non believers’. Quite interesting considering they think they have the remedy but never use it, instead they are little mini accusers of the brethren. Little mini me’s to Satan, accusing brethren and giving the lost a false gospel. Tragic.

  231. RAS, the “show the fruit” crowd can’t possibly explain why their behavior is less than perfect.

    They are always grading on a curve – either relative to other people, or relative to themselves, before they started showing all of the “fruit.”

  232. Let me say one more thing about this conversation I am having. Nonsense abounds on both fronts. I have a softer heart for the confused Gnostic woman then I do for the LSers who are claiming scripture as authority yet relying on menyouscripts to exegete. I have been given no reason to believe that the Gnostic has ever believed in the Christ of scripture and she will not claim scripture as authoritative. The LSers do, yet deny so much of what it says. So many contradictions! Proof text to proof text, to theologian as authority to bottom line “show the fruit”…

    I have been in many of these conversations and am still discovering new ways Lsers use equivocation to bolster their theology. Simon of Acts 8 came up and “your money perish with you” was turned to “you are going to hell”. “You have neither part nor portion in this matter” became “You have no part in God’s grace”, “bound by iniquity” became “still in bondage to sin” (two different words for bound).

    I pointed to 1 Corinthians 8:11 “And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?”— I asked how a brother could perish and not go to hell yet Simon must?

    “Brother is not equal to believer.”

    Yet Christ died for him? How does that square with limited atonement?

    “Christ died differently for him”

    TULIP was upheld at all cost. I tell this story because I get so discouraged in a rigged “game” (it’s not a game). I get discouraged but never tempted to accept the equivocation. I tell this story because there are few who understand why we “make a deal of it”.

  233. John, She was spouting total nonsense but I wanted to draw her out. I heard nothing from her to convince me she ever believed the Gospel so staying in the Gospel books was great. Curits nailed it she was Gnostic.

  234. RAS, I’ve always thought it is really strange for someone to believe that only Jesus’ words in scripture are authoritative. After all, if one cannot trust the rest of scripture as authoritative, why would they think that the authors would have reliably captured Jesus’ words.

  235. An interesting sermon by Pastor Charles Lawson :
    check this out on youtube entitled: (won’t leave a URL) but you can find it ….
    New Birth, Clean Conscience (Pastor Charles Lawson)
    The Pastor mentions that ‘repentance’ takes place after salvation and is ongoing as a process of sanctification right up until the rapture of the believer in Christ.
    Maranatha and God bless you

  236. Thankful to The Lord RAS that through the Clear Gospel of grace you /we are able to spot /dicern and Trust God to do the rest.
    the deeper and deeper a soul like the woman woman you talked too and wonders off into gnosticsm the stranger the doctrines get

  237. RAS, it is frustrating to see so much competing error out there.

  238. I just got done with a conversation with a woman very much caught up in “Jesus love” to the point of making Him one dimensional. She was very concerned with being judged by others and I tried to point out that she was not being judged but rather her unusual take on scripture (only Jesus’ words are authoritative) is what is being challenged. I answered her objections to Paul but concentrated on the teaching of Jesus (all she was open to). I showed that Jesus warned of false teaching etc. but she could really twist passages to fit her sensual concept of Christ.

    As I stressed to her that I was not judging her standing before God but only her spiritual discernment along comes a Calvy to judge her to hell as “never truly saved” quoting 1 Tim 4:1-2. I asked this Calvy how this woman could depart from the faith if she had never been in the faith. What I got was pages of menyouscripts about real faith vs. false faith; head faith vs. heart faith etc.

    You see, these menyouscripts explained to me that Paul was speaking of “verbal confessors”. He may have called them the flock but he didn’t mean it. Paul was telling believers to beware of something that cannot possibly happen to them or else he is saying that unbelievers are going to “unbelieve” more.

    Two people: One no authority to scripture just Christ’s “love”. The other, heavy reliance on menyouscripts to the point of obscuring the obvious (can’t depart from where you have never been). If I had hair I would have no more hair. That’s where logic takes me after these kind of conversations. .

  239. Anon – thanks for clarifying. I do believe we should expose them and we are doing it for the purpose of both believers and non believers who may be sitting under them. I don’t spend much time on the same person, but there are times I will expose again. I think on Paul saying what he did he would continue to do in order to cut off their opportunity to deceive others into thinking they are ‘apostles’ or like the apostles. New people all the time are reading new articles and finding out things they did not know, and some are being led out of error. Others who will not hear, you do your best and let them alone. Although I still take into account 1 Tim 2:1-6 in those cases.

  240. Chas, I know what you mean. I’ve been accused of making salvation too easy – and making it too hard. And, both accusations are based on the same message.

  241. johninnc…
    Thanks for the clarification. It seems, given the complete content of DQ689’s statement, my “magnanimous” theory about DQ689’s intent is blown out of the water! Wouldn’t be the first time I gave somebody too much credit. Funny thing is, whenever I try to warn somebody I know who’s following this or that false teacher, I’m accused of being a “heresy hunter”, “impossible to please”, etc. What’re ya gonna do?

  242. actually in the light of romans chapters 5, 6,7,8 We as believer souls in/on Christ Jesus we already have a perfect postion in Christ Jesus fully Justified and Sanctified . Being seated with Him.
    the appeal to living the Christian life is to rest in that perfect position in spite of ourselves.
    Now in the light of that position will we allow The Holy Spirit to control us?
    it is only reasonable to do so romans 12:1-2
    by enjoying The Lord Jesus through God’s Word

  243. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6

    ” No one submits to the Lordship of Christ perfectly. But, I think Phil’s point was that Christ was perfect in His submission. ”

    Yes ….. that is why His righteousness is imputed to us forever when we are saved via Free Grace. We can add nothing to His righteousness ever.
    But, perfect submission will occur amongst believers in Heaven after the rapture of the eclessia. Not now in these corruptible vessels … but later before Him.

    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

    Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2

  244. Hi Holly … we should expose them for their false teaching :

    Ephesians 5:11
    English Standard Version
    Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
    King James Bible
    And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    But after continually exposing them, how many have changed? John MacArthur, Ray Comfort, SO4J, Paul Washer etc etc. Then it’s time to move on. They are truly blind to Free Grace as taught in the Word of God. . As Jesus demonstrated during a meeting with Lordship and Works Salvationists ……..:
    John 9: 35-41
    35Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 36He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. 39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

    Jer. 5:21 (King James version): “Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not.”

    “There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know. The proverb has been traced back in English to 1546 (John Heywood),

    Hence : Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. Matthew 15:34

    If one believes that salvation is by works, what does that say about who they really believe Jesus is? They call Him, Lord and they do many works … wonderful works actually …. before, during and after their salvation. So what does one expect their Lord to say to them? ……

    22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?’ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.. Matthew 7: 22,23

  245. Anon, forgive me for not quite understanding whether you are saying let them alone means we don’t expose their false teaching? Could you clarify? Thanks, Holly

  246. No one submits to the Lordship of Christ perfectly. But, I think Phil’s point was that Christ was perfect in His submission.

  247. Re ” As for ‘letting alone’ the blind leaders, that was in the context of whether or not they were offended by His sayings, it did not address whether or not we ‘mark and avoid’ those who bring a doctrine contrary to the one we learned (Rom 16:17), or testing the spirits (1 Jn 4:1-3), or proving all things (1 Thess 5:21) or searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so (Acts 17:11). It does not suggest we ignore them

    Yes, quite obvious … nevertheless, it can be extended to other blind leaders … proponents of Lordship Salvation … which is just what the Pharisees actually were and actually still are.”

  248. Blessed assurance IF you have PERFECT submission. No blessed assurance when you don’t have perfect submission. How many Christians submit to the ‘Lordship’ of Christ perfectly? (smile)

  249. Phil, agree. My wife and I were discussing that just last night.

  250. I really don’t see anything LS or legalistic or works requirements in Fanny Crosby’s lyrics to “Blessed Assurance.” The song speaks of having Jesus as her Savior and being an heir of salvation who is born of the Spirit because she is a purchase of God thanks to being washed in his blood thru HIS perfect submission, not her’s.
    The song is all about what Jesus has done for her, not about what she has done. And the rest of the song is an expression of joy in all that Christ has done for her.

  251. Spurgeon says to know we are saved that “we will not habitually commit sin.” He wrongly cites 1 John 3:9 (which should say ‘do’ or ‘commit’ vs. ‘practice’ sin). He also cites Rom 6:2. This is all to prove we are born again.

    He secondly says that believers “will seek to live a holy life by obeying God’s Word.”

    We should most definitely obey His Word, but that is what the epistles are for to encourage believers to continue in His Word. It is not automatic.

    He says we WILL love others no matter what, but we SHOULD do so, but again, we have 1 John as just one of the examples that speak to believers about what we SHOULD do as well as many others.

    He also says, “our affections will not be set upon the things of the world. Well, our affections should NOT be, but believers are again admonished NOT to let this happen as it WAS happening. Even Demas who was identified as a worker in the gospel did love the world and go back to it, but he was a believer. Obviously, he was not abiding in the love of God.

    He also uses Romans 8:5, 9 to suggest that those who mind the things of the flesh are not believers, but actually 9 says that we are not in the flesh if we have His Spirit dwelling in us. And we know from Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 12:13, Eph 4:4-6 that we have His Spirit indwelling us the moment we believe.

    Spurgeon says, “these changes are the evidence that we truly have been born again. If they are not evident in our life, it is likely we have not savingly believed in Christ.

    There is more, but that gives you the gist of Spurgeon’s backdoor load-ship although he is front, top and a backloader of the gospel.

  252. Spurgeon said there was no such thing as preaching the gospel unless you preached Calvinism because Calvinism was the gospel (false).

    As for ‘letting alone’ the blind leaders, that was in the context of whether or not they were offended by His sayings, it did not address whether or not we ‘mark and avoid’ those who bring a doctrine contrary to the one we learned (Rom 16:17), or testing the spirits (1 Jn 4:1-3), or proving all things (1 Thess 5:21) or searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so (Acts 17:11). It does not suggest we ignore them 🙂

  253. Spurgeon was a false teacher, Calvinist, and Lordship Salvationist. There is no question.

  254. Spurgeon on ‘assurance’. Does this in the end sound like Lordship Salvation mixed with Saving Grace?

    (Link removed by administrator)

  255. See Romans 10:3 – submission to God’s righteousness, in this context, would entail relying on Christ alone for eternal life.

  256. You can have perfect assurance if you are properly submitted. Faith, itself, is way of submitting oneself to the truth. I don’t think Ms. Crosby was necessarily promoting a submission to works or performance.

  257. 26And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
    Luke 18:27

    26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? 27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
    Mark 10:26-27

    Interesting … when one goes to some sites, they really sound like Salvation by Grace alone site, but when you read further, they just end up a hybrid of Lordship Salvation and Free Grace …. even CARM (carm.org) starts out well but eventually it becomes a works ‘evidence’ program of salvation. The scriptures above lay it out plainly … salvation by Grace alone through faith alone, in Jesus Christ (GOD) alone.

    It is fearful to see how the fallen nature of man still persists in claiming to have to ‘do something’ to prove whether one is damned or saved. Blessed assurance with ‘perfect submission’ ? ………… p e r f e c t ?

    Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
    Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
    Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
    Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.
    This is my story, this is my song,
    Praising my Savior all the day long;
    This is my story, this is my song,
    Praising my Savior all the day long.
    Perfect submission, perfect delight,
    Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
    Angels, descending, bring from above
    Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.
    Perfect submission, all is at rest,
    I in my Savior am happy and blest,
    Watching and waiting, looking above,
    Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.

    It’s even in the hymns, Sunday after Sunday. Which believer can sing this and have ‘perfect’ assurance? (smile)

  258. Sad to see people follow blindly after men just because they are more well known and give emotional speeches. Funny Paul said that he did not come with excellency of speech, but Christ and him crucified. Now I have learned alot from men, however I always have studied what they said for myself and see if it is what the scripture says.

  259. Chas said:
    “More importantly, it also sets up a de-facto standard of behavior needed to validate a person’s faith; an undefined standard which must be fulfilled sooner or later and ultimately never is, since the “standard” can never be defined clearly. The effect is the same as more blatant forms of legalism: either self-righteousness or despair.”

    That is an excellent point. I’ve never met an LS’r (including my former self) that didn’t think THEY were meeting the “standard.” The standard becomes themselves, as they all admit to “not being perfect.” When pressed on the matter, the standard response, “Sure I sin, but you don’t understand the difference between sin and a lifestyle of sinning.” I guess this means I can murder, steal and commit adultery every once in a while, as long as it isn’t a “lifestyle.”

  260. Chas, it is magnanimous of you to give the commenter the benefit of the doubt. The point of my including an excerpt from his comment in the article was to show his devotion to a teacher – one who we had rightly called out for teaching error that is an affront to the gospel.

    The rest of his comment was: If someone claims to be born again, but still continue to live in sins, that means he probably has not truly been saved. The reason why these people are not saved is NOT because they don’t forsake their sins, instead it’s because they are not saved so they don’t forsake their sins.

    My comment: This is Lordship “salvation” 101.

  261. Reading the quote of DQ689, I can’t help but wonder if he or she was thinking in the context of motivation as opposed to action itself. Certainly the motivation for forsaking sin is different for any person resting in the shed blood of Christ for their salvation than it is for someone trying to receive and/or keep or “validate” their “salvation” by “repenting of sin”. BUT

    It’s a subtle trap to believe that turning from sin is “inevitable” (I don’t say “automatic”) for someone who is saved (indwelt by the Spirit of God). I used to believe such myself. It seems so intuitive. The problem is, such a view leaves out the “flesh” which still indwells the unredeemed body of every living believer. More importantly, it also sets up a de-facto standard of behavior needed to validate a person’s faith; an undefined standard which must be fulfilled sooner or later and ultimately never is, since the “standard” can never be defined clearly. The effect is the same as more blatant forms of legalism: either self-righteousness or despair.

  262. i got curious after hearing about Pilgrims Progress from here at expreacherman and a preachers recent message referenceing the book that i watched a video book version on YouTube until the spirit of fear started getting a grip on me so i shut it down but still disrupted my sleep with weird dreams for a time..
    I don’t understand what the attraction is to Pilgrims Progress it is hailed as 17th century literature work of art. That was a different culture at the time for sure.

    God has not given us the spirit of fear but of power love and sound mind.

  263. Angela, agree – Pilgrim’s Progress, and its author, appeared to have had a great influence on Charles Spurgeon, who became the consummate Lordship “salvationist.”

  264. Thank you for this post!
    The Pilgrims Progress…. that is a book on my list of “I wish I had never read that!”
    I am so thankful each day that I have came to realization that my focus should never have been on these supposed great men of the faith.
    I know I had the tendency to fall for that old lie that these men are so learned and studied in the faith that they must surely have a better understanding than me. Even though I absolutely knew a person is saved by faith through grace, these writers over time confused my thinking on how to live as a believer, they always seemed to place the focus on sin, works and self-effort rather than living in Christ and victory.
    And important message to keep putting out there for those that have fallen in that hole.

  265. Curtis, your frequent use of this passage came to mind as I was putting this article together.

  266. John 18:34: Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

    My favorite of many passages of scripture a whole sermon could be drawn out from.
    would like to say even in our USA court system “hear say” is not allowed in a court of Law .
    also there are Teachers who may have started out in The Clear Gospel of Grace but who wandered off into Works as evidence of salvation. Another reason to be careful of quoting from others should even be careful to quote others who have died in Christ because we could wonder off into false doctrine if we do not continue to separate unto Truth in our thinking.

  267. Matthew 15:14King James Version (KJV)
    14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.