The false gospels that pervade our churches are reflected in comments that show up in response to articles on the internet. Whether the subject is moral, political, or religious, “defenders of the faith” can be counted on to respond with their versions of how people can receive eternal life. I have rarely seen anyone who gets it right.
Following are some examples that I have garnered over the past few months. The comments are in italics, and my responses are in bold:
Jesus Christ, the Son of God loves you! As a matter of fact He loved you soooo much that He came to Earth and lived a sinless life and died on the Cross for your sins and if you Repent of your sins and accept Him as Lord and Savior, then you will be saved. Jesus Christ loves you! 🙂
My comment: Repenting of your sins is not a requirement for eternal life.
…I have a changed life and heart after turning my life over to the god of the universe. I struggled for 20 years to obtain these changes to no avail. His word did the work that I could not. If you really want proof I can tell you how to obtain it, but you have to really be serious. If you are joking around it won’t work. If you really want to know and if God is real and He proves it to you will you give him the rest of your life? Will you make Him your God? If you are serious, God says that when you seek him with all of your heart you will find him. You must be willing to give up everything. If you are willing He will answer you. The God I serve cannot lie. Willing to take me up on it? I will lead you every step of the way.
My comment: We are not saved by giving God our lives. We are saved by believing that Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, died for our sins, was buried, and was raised from the dead.
It is also clear that there are those who don’t like rules, don’t want to be judged, and want unconditional forgiveness. Jesus didn’t say there wouldn’t be any rules. Jesus said “if you love me, keep my commandments.” So I can understand why some would want to call me a hypocrite for pointing to the commandments. Because it causes people examine their own faults. But the bigger picture here is that Jesus paid the price for sin. He didn’t take away the rules, but He paid the ransom for breaking them if we abandon our lawlessness and follow Him. To all sinners, there is forgiveness, but it wad bought with a price, and we must repent of our sins, abandon them and walk in the light. We can’t have it both ways. We can’t serve two masters. We can’t live in sin and live for God. True Love is Jesus dying on the cross for you while you were yet an enemy of God and extending peace to you if you will surrender your life to Him and follow Him and deny yourself.
My comment: This is full of errors. We are not saved by surrendering our lives to Christ, nor are Christians under the law.
doesn’t matter if the muslims love and follow Jesus.it doesn’t matter if ISIS loves and follows Jesus or angels.if either group is not saved and have not repented for their sins all of the above groups are lost in eternal hellfire.without accepting JESUS as LORD and savior NO ONE can be saved according to the bible which IS GODS word.it is simple really,do you believe Jesus is the son of GOD and do you believe he rose from the dead for the remittance of sins? just pray and ask Jesus to come into your heart and save you and forgive you of your sins and GOD promises in his word you WILL be saved.this is the ONLY way to heaven.see Romans 10:9,10,11,12
My comment: We do not have to repent of sins to receive the free gift of eternal life. Jesus is Lord – we cannot make Him Lord.
______________________________________________________
The Bible says that we are saved by grace, through faith in Christ
Ephesians 2:8-9:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
If you are a “defender of the faith”, but have never received eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, click here: The Real Story
Notes From A Retired Preacher 
I am just so reminded every moment it seems of a similar blindness between the religious and those of the world right now regarding the forcing of vaccines. It’s a similar attitude of I don’t care, I’m right, and if you need forced, so be it, it’s for the ‘greater good’.
The style of ‘discussion’ is the same. The attitudes are the same. I don’t think everyone is blinded just because they got a vaccine. I have close friends who did. An older believer who did before he found out more. A couple who are missionaries (and his wife is in the hospital with clotting and stroke). It’s upsetting because of what I suspect in them and even my friend with encephalitis of the brain. So I pray. I pray they won’t run to go get a booster. But if they have a pastor like the one on the other post here (I’d take 3 more) it’s likely…
Hobbs, there are also some very direct affirmations of their having believed the gospel, including:
Galatians 1:6: I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
and
Galatians 3:2: This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
johninnc, thanks, I forgot about the reference to ‘brethren’.
Hobbs, the believers of Galatia are referred to as “brethren” throughout Galatians. This is contrasted with the “false brethren” who had led them to the error of going back under the law in Galatians 2:4.
I didn’t really detect manipulation in the comment, but I think constant “examination of true motives” and “soul searching” can create unhealthy introspection. When we find ourselves comparing ourselves to others, or even to our previous selves, for evidence of relative virtue, we are likely on the wrong track.
johninnc, I see, so they’re using fear coupled with an appeal to fleshly pride.
I did notice in that guy’s comment that he didn’t want to take the next ‘logical’ step and consider that some may have never believed in the first place, not just that they could slip into legalism. But it also occurred to me recently to wonder if Paul in Galations ever makes that distinction with those early believers? That was something I wanted to ask here at some point anyway.
So, did you detect some manipulation in that comment and does this last paragraph from the same message perhaps confirm your suspicions?:
‘Being serious about following Jesus means we will carry out some serious soul searching that should result in the unlocking of the legalism that can chain up our heart. It exists in us all and if allowed to go unchecked will spread and create pharisees rather than disciples’.
Hobbs, it’s an interesting comment. We have a case study, in the COVID crisis, in how this fleshly desire can be manipulated. Profile pictures of people in masks on Facebook and Twitter were ubiquitous for a while. People label those who won’t engage in COVID theater, or who don’t want to take the “vaccines” as “selfish.” These are real-life examples of virtue signaling gone mad. The evil people who have stolen/are stealing our freedoms knew that fear alone wouldn’t sustain the public behavior they wanted, so it was paired with virtue signaling.
No one becomes a Christian through legalism, and Christians who fall into legalism are seriously off-track.
I thought this was a good comment:
‘Legalism as it is more commonly known, is the desire to be holy through your own effort, not through receiving God’s unmerited grace and gift of righteousness. It seems to offer something that is hugely attractive to all humanity, a way of earning acceptance and holiness by doing good things. Most religions are based on this concept.
Jesus has none of it. He exposes legalism as a fraud. He reveals it leads to death not life, to an obsession with behaviour rather than an examination of true motives, to pride, secrecy, and ignoring the heart of God. It also doesn’t make you right with God, however much it seems that it does. This can only be achieved by humbly receiving God’s mercy as a free gift though faith in Christ alone.’
Jason, that’s an interesting observation.
There is nothing conservative about LS. It is worse than CRT: “if you are a believer, you are automatically fake”
Hobbs, way back we talked about God’s promises, and that people think they are conditional. It’s very sad, but they take the blame off of God by putting it on the people who didn’t ‘endure until the end’ or who ‘went back into the world’ or ‘walked away’.
It was great to get to understand the difference between bilateral and unilateral covenants or promises. Eternal life was always a unilateral promise, and made with God, Jesus and the Spirit, while Abraham was asleep, he had no part in it. That’s why He says, I swore by myself and there is no greater.
Knowing those things gives me great confidence, in Him, none in myself.
I spoke to Ron in April. I have no reason to believe he’s not still doing okay, but that’s only because I haven’t had any contact with him since then. I pray for him every day.
chas, I haven’t heard from him for awhile.
Johninnc… I’ve been wondering about Ron Shea as well, especially since there doesn’t seem to have been any updating of his website for a while now. I hope he’s okay.
Holly, I agree, changing our minds about what/who we’re trusting in rather than trying to change our behaviour is what the Bible says we must do to be saved. It’s made that simple.
Holly, I have prayed for Ron as well.
FryingPan – I laughed too. Sometimes I just smile at the funny little statements, probably meant seriously at times, but it’s truth.
Johninnc – good answer too from Ron Shea. I wonder how he is doing. I have been meaning to give him a call. Praying for him too.
Hobbs, I’m glad you emailed your friend that clear comment — completely true, it’s a deception.
In your friend’s concession, it sounds actually like he missed your point. We know it’s God’s grace that brings salvation, but turning from our own ways won’t help and he left that it. Maybe better worded, changing our thinking about what we believed previously (which was wrong), unto believing in the truth. Who Christ is, and what He has done for us.
I think on what the religious Jews needed to repent from (think not). It wasn’t because they were Jews they would be children of God (Matt 3, but Jesus said; think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
And the Gentiles (Acts 17) needed to think differently – repent (change mind), regarding their false gods being able to save. These were not going to be what they were judged by, but by the man Jesus, the ordained one, who was risen from the dead. That was who they better put their faith in.
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
johninnc, yes, John 5:24 – no mention of turning from sins or giving ones life, simply hearing and believing to be saved forever. Amen. Thanks.
Hi Chas,
I understand it’s a serious issue, but I laughed out loud at your closing comment about grasshoppers.
Hobbs, it is great that you have taken a bold stand for the gospel with your friend. That can be intimidating, particularly if it is someone with whom we are very close.
If you broach the topic with him again, it might be to talk about it from the standpoint of what the Bible says is our basis for assurance. John 5:24 is a good place to start. Ron Shea has a brief questionnaire in “The Gospel Booklet” that reads as follows:
According to this verse (John 5:24), how can you be sure that you have truly been saved?
– You can be sure that you have truly been saved if your life begins to change, showing that God has really come into your life.
– You can be sure that you have truly been saved if you bear the fruit of good works.
– You can be sure that you have truly been saved if many years from now you are still walking with Christ.
– You can be sure that you have truly been saved if you heard the gospel and believed it.”
Since the only correct answer is the last one, that would mean that including any of the other (or similar) concepts into how one receives eternal life would undermine the gospel message.
My friend’s church had this on their youtube channel:
“We say the Kingdom of God is at hand and in us and invite all to turn with us from our own ways and follow the righteous pathway of Jesus
Christ into abundant and eternal life.”
So I emailed my friend to say: ‘I don’t think it’s following a pathway of righteous living that leads to eternal life. That’s religion. That’s how religion says you get eternal life, and it’s a deception. The good news of Christ is that salvation is a free gift, by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Not of works.’
He replied that he had now added ‘By God’s grace’, so it now reads: ‘…invite all to turn with us from our own ways and receive by God’s Grace the free gift of salvation and righteousness into a new, abundant and eternal life.’ So he seems to concede there was some error there.
But… it still makes turning from (sin) a prerequisite to receiving grace. But that’s the whole point, God saves us freely despite our sinful state, or noone could be saved.
So that’s the next obstacle, broaching what I see as a further error. I just feel so awkward doing all this, but guess I may just give it another go sometime.
To be honest, it took me two weeks to ‘dare’ read his reply as I was nervy about hearing a rebuttal that may undermine my own confidence in grace.
Chas, these people most definitely have it wrong.
To them, they said ‘it is not enough…” and then they add their own works or unbiblical lingo. Or combine discipleship with the gospel.
It angers me too more and more, and frustrates me with those I know who want to argue for it being ‘no big deal’ or ‘nitpicky’. Why can’t they find these things in Scripture, but are willing to defend them, possibly being guilty of bearing with the ones who corrupt minds from the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor 11:3-4). They think they are too ‘spiritually mature’ to be deceived. One who told me that, I explained that Paul warned the ‘elders of the church in Acts 20:25-32’, and pastors such as Timothy, so what made her feel like she was more mature than them.
But they do…
Today I had a conversation with a man I did not know initially was a professor of theology, got his doctorate from Notre Dame, and wrote a book. It was in a dispensationalist group I was added to. I assumed he was just a Calvinist who dropped in to hassle others, and engaged with him. I looked at his page to see why this man was so wise in his own eyes. And terribly sad because he’s somewhat younger with a family. And he’s jeopardizing all of them. I looked at his book on Amazon. Wow. One of the guys praising him shared this from Matthew Bate’s book.
In fact, he goes so far as to drop this bombshell in the opening pages: “English-speaking Christian leaders should entirely cease to speak of ‘salvation by faith’ or of ‘faith in Jesus’ or ‘believing in Christ’ when summarizing Christian salvation. For the sake of the gospel we need to revise our vocabulary” (p. 3).
Totally accursed…
Chas, wow, 1,400 comments!
False gospels infuriate me as well, particularly the “hurry up and believe a false gospel before it’s too late” variety.
I see this thread is up to 1,399 comments. I may as well make it an even 1,400.
Today I came across an article on a site that was linked from a conservative news site I visit daily, about the swarms of grasshoppers moving about the western U.S. The site associated the infestations with the End Times, and had a “Gospel” page, so I checked it out. After considerable scrolling to get to the point, there was this:
Some Scriptures quoted were John 1:12, 3:16, and of course Romans 10:9. Even Eph. 2:8,9 was quoted, all in the midst of arguing that one must “give your life to God” in addition to simply believing in Jesus.
I dunno what it is, but that kind of… stuff just infuriates me more and more as time goes on. How in the world does anybody maintain the need to “give your life to God” to be saved in the face of Eph. 2? IT SAYS THE EXACT OPPOSITE! I had to calm down before posting a response. Eventually, I posted that nothing is required to receive eternal life except simple faith in Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. (Anyway, that was the gist of my response.) I also “mentioned” that anything else is a false gospel.
We are certainly approaching the time of the end, but it has little to do with grasshoppers.
Thank you John.
Sometimes it’s a matter of knowing when to quit, but always a matter of redeeming the time and keeping grace and salt in my speech. Not sure either has ever understood the gospel of grace.
Holly, it sounds like it. I have prayed that you would have the right words and approach with them, and that both of them would hear and understand.
Johninnc, good advice regarding those teaching the false gospel. I’m dealing with one now on FB, she is an older woman, and I would love to see her recovered, but she’s pretty confused, and yet not altogether unwilling to hear ‘some’.
Another one is saying we have to keep the law, so it’s been a bit of a conversation with both on my page.
Holly and Katmazdobelieve, I agree that what comes out of peoples’ mouths as it relates to the gospel is revealing. We should judge whether or not it comports with the gospel. If we hear a sour note that undermines the gospel, we have an opportunity to present the gospel in a way that deals with the person’s spoken misconceptions. If they persist in undermining the gospel, we should mark and avoid them.
Katmazdobelieve.
I do believe we judge fruits in the respect of what comes out of their mouths. It’s helps us know who to mark and avoid, and also who needs to obviously hear the true gospel.
Chas
How fearless they are to twist God’s Word. Never once was being ‘qualified’ for eternal life said. The free gift of qualification? Wow.
And of course, they believe THEY will endure until the end. I’m afraid they may have a chance to find that out (meaning, they’ll possibly see the Tribulation if God is willing to give them another chance).
It goes without saying I hope that if they once believed they are just bewitched.
Holly,
Sharing the gospel should be the only remedy.
I know in my LS days there was a disgusting satisfaction of feeling superior while accusing others. God straighten me out on that though. I no longer judge people based on their behavior but I do judge the words that come from their mouths.
I saw someone use that verse against the evils of pedophilia. I thought to myself that that wasn’t what was meant. Christ’s concern was how a man would be saved. He wanted us to rest in him alone. He wants people to believe on him alone for salvation.
Kate.
Katmazdobelieve
I cringe when I see that stuff. The one verse that always comes to mind when these people are busy potentially accusing saints is this:
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Matt 18:6
I know some think this just applies to children, I think it applies to young ones who believe in Him also. So, I wouldn’t want to be these people.
If someone is concerned that someone may not be saved, isn’t just sharing the gospel with them the remedy?
Chas, interesting. In addition to the things you mentioned, there is the reference to enduring to the end. I suppose that’s how this guy thinks one “qualifies.”
Here’s one I haven’t heard before. While watching a video by a guy who calls himself “a Christian patriot”, I was treated to this ditty:
Now wait… by believing, we’re qualified for eternal life? My Bible (NASB) says that when we believe, we HAVE eternal life. The Spirit indwells us immediately upon belief. The indwelling of the Spirit isn’t something we receive “separately”. It’s amazing, the varieties of false “gospels” that are out there, even among “Christian patriots”.
One interesting thing; at the end of his “gospel” presentation, he gave an appeal for financial support that almost made me flash back to my TBN days. Classic pattern of manipulation.
katmazdobelieve, that’s quite the bold statement, and it is demonstrably false on at least two levels.
First, no one can know whether or not someone else has eternal life, although the person who made this comment is testifying that he doesn’t believe what the Bible says about how to have eternal life.
Second, receiving the free gift of eternal life is not conditioned upon surrendering one’s life to Christ’s Lordship, or letting Jesus run one’s life.
I saw this one today…
“I have found that 99% of people who say they are “Christians” are not born-again saints.
They will not surrender their life to God the son Jesus Christ’s lordship.
They run their life and say ” I believe in Jesus”.
THEY ARE NOT SAVED.”
So sad that people are deceived. It is even sadder that the person that posted this is probably not saved will putting qualifiers on people and while condemning them. More and more repeat the lies of LS.
To be a Christian is simply to be in Christ (saved). So it’s not a label because it reflects reality itself for saved people. That’s why Trump specifically calling himself “non-denominational” really stood out to me. There’s heaps of labels he could’ve been under, but instead chose none of them and just used Christian.
Brad, I know you are against group-think, as your long comment history demonstrates.
We agree that neither Calvinism nor Lordship “salvation” are consistent with scripture, and that both undermine the gospel. We also agree that the pre-tribulation, pre-millennial rapture is scriptural, and that all members of the church (body of Christ) will be raptured.
For faith plus works to work, the bible would have to be consistently specific, to a tee, exactly how many sins a person must not do, or is allowed to do through the course of their entire life. That would expand the bible to be much much bigger to say the least. It would also introduce and retain a level of doubt in the person about their salvation or lack thereof.
The logical sense behind faith alone is that it is the only doctrinal belief that allows for a person to have an absolute guarantee of their own salvation, which allows for zero amounts of doubt being able to gain any foothold.
Like with the pre-tribulation rapture. The only ‘blessed hope’ view of that whole doctrine is that the saved are rescued from experiencing all the bad that the tribulation period will bring.
Works for salvation just creates, builds and then enforces in a person’s mind; “I’m not done yet”. Meanwhile Jesus said “It is finished” over 2000 years ago. Very ironic.
Calvinism is really sinister, taking works for salvation and twisting it into “no we are for faith alone, but our works will prove our own faith”, so then all view is shifted from Christ’s work to their own work, while still declaring outwardly faith alone for salvation.. This is probably about where the belief of “all the good works I do are not done by me but by the Holy Spirit”, it’s not a far stretch of the imagination to think people like this basically see themselves as puppets of God. All just to find the full assurance in salvation they never quite fully find even though it’s right in front of them.
Plus for those who do believe that the Holy Spirit is fully responsible for their good works, then what about the sins they commit? Deductively they would believe in the converse view that those sins are the Holy Spirits fault too. But then comes the convenient fallback of “no all the sins I commit are my own fault”.
Sadly for some I suspect it may actually turn into “the Holy Spirit is responsible for everything I do, good or bad”. If indoctrinated deeply enough it’s amazing that it is possible for a person to be actively blaming God Himself for the sins they commit. Maybe on a deeper subconscious level they just want to appear blameless of all sins, but ironically and quite egotistically they don’t want to appear blameless before God, but before themselves.
Who are those people kidding (not including those that are unaware and just misled). The truth for many “Christian” groups and their members is that they worship themselves and commit idolatry.
Does anyone remember last year when Trump held a bible and walked to a church near the White House? He was asked: “Mr. President is that your bible?”, he replied: “It is a bible”. I think he was then asked what church he belonged to and he specifically replied: “Non-denominational Christian”. I found that amazingly relevant to have the sitting president of the US at the time making a clear virtue signal to perhaps people on websites like this one that we’re clearly not alone in wanting to retain the biblical definition of the word Christian whilst also leaving all other labels and denominations out of that picture.
In the first translation of the bible into English, the words that are these days translated to ‘church’ were instead translated to ‘congregation’. The word congregation is very specific in it’s implied description as a group of people together. Church doesn’t in my opinion have the same implied description, or if it ever did it doesn’t anymore.
Lots of people think ‘church’ and immediately picture a physical structure and a specific interpretation for the ideology that physical structure is supposed to house. So then you get “our church is right, no ours is, etc” mentality. But “our congregation is right, no ours is, etc” retains the importance of the individuals that make up the group, instead of their church’s name and doctrines being the umbrella in which the clump of their members reside, the clump becomes the highest focus (for fellowship of course).
Group-think comes from when a bunch of people look to one thing or person or belief system, but when they look amongst themselves the top priority is not to deviate or even ask questions. This is a breeding ground for closed-mindedness which is exactly where Satan wants people.
katmazdobelieve
How disappointing that the apostles forgot to add when they preached that these people needed to ‘aspire God’s heart’… (tongue in cheek obviously).
That commenter stating that, “Sinners who want God of their own free will also want to go the way of obedience, humility and submission” missed something very important — the Word is necessary. If these people knew, love and treasured His Word (Ps 119:140,162), it would be more likely that they would point people to it for washing (Eph 5:26), instead of acting as if these things are automatic. Like Tom Cucuzza says (not verbatim) — if it were automatic, we wouldn’t have needed a majority of the epistles.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jn 8:31-32
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Is 55:10-11
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. Jn 21:15-17
Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus’ feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: but one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. Lk 10:38-42
Brad, yeah, there are so many variations on false gospels out there. Calvinism and LS are very prominent, as well as RC. All of them get back to eternal life by works.
I don’t understand how people couldn’t understand the good news. It is so simple to me. How many different ways does “not your works, but Jesus'” have to be said? Thousands of different beliefs from one book… Humanity really needs to sort their stuff out.
katmazdobelieve, it had gone to spam.
Katmazdobelieve, yeah, a comment like this makes me wonder if someone has ever understood the gospel. It sounds like typical SBC garble.
Did my last comment not make the cut??
Chas, I agree. One common attribute of subtle LS comments is very long-winded comments that sound kinda “graceish,” but then have some ambiguous statement wedged in the middle that makes it sound like you have to have a “heart of obedience,” or some sort of implicit commitment to Christ in order to receive eternal life. The obvious problem with this kind of approach is that one would have to assess their intent to obey Christ (turn from sins, do good works etc.) in order to have assurance of eternal life. This is similar to the “willingness to turn from sin” for eternal life false gospel of Billy Graham or the J.D. Greear “posture of submission to Christ’s Lordship” false gospel.
Johninnc…
It seems as though closet LS-ers are coming up with increasingly subtle ways of disguising self-righteous unbelief. In many cases, I don’t think they’re even aware of what they do. It just makes them feel better.
Johninnc,
This commenter states, “Everyone is a sinner. But sinners who aspire God’s heart end up saved through Christ’s death. Sinners who want God of their own free will also want to go the way of obedience, humility and submission.”
I know that people aren’t suppose to make assumptions about a person’s position regarding whether they have trusted in Christ alone but this commenter, based on their own words doesn’t seem like they are resting in Christ.
Their first sentence reads like they are telling the reader that in order to be saved you must “aspire” God’s heart and then Christ’ death will be the payment. Then they follow it with they typical “you WILL be changed by seeking obedience, humility, and submission”. Maybe I am being to particular but when a person uses the word “will” it seems like the choice to seek the will of God is no longer a choice. It always makes me think that some people believe that once you are saved you become a robot and no longer have free will.
Below is a small excerpt from a very long comment I read today:
Everyone is a sinner. But sinners who aspire God’s heart end up saved through Christ’s death. Sinners who want God of their own free will also want to go the way of obedience, humility and submission.
My comment: It is possible that this person views obedience, humility, and submission as: obeying the gospel (by believing it), humility in understanding that one must rely on Christ alone for eternal life, and submitting to the righteousness of Christ, rather than relying on one’s self-righteousness for eternal life. Otherwise, it sounds a lot like LS.
Jason, that is the unfortunate truth in most cases.
On the gospel, “Christian” “leaders” are spineless.
Keith, agree. There are lots of “Christian” “leaders”, who may be one or the other, but almost never both.
Saw this one on Facebook today. Someone posted John MacArthur’s statement on the recent election fiasco:
“We no longer have confidence in politicians, health experts, social activists, academics, or the media—all of them have lost credibility by pursuing agendas over honesty. However, there is One to whom we can turn and always hear the truth”.
The same could be said about America’s religious leaders, among whom MacArthur is preeminent.
Chas I feel your frustration. I liked a lot of what Ironside wrote, but I haven’t read him in a long time. But when we see something that contradicts His Word, we need to say so (mark) and avoid them. I know that people feel sentimental, but they need to understand it’s better to do what the Lord tells us (avoid). They want to ‘chew the meat and spit out the bones’.
One did that the other day with me, in ‘not throwing out the baby with the bathwater’ (a pastor). When me and another friend explained the harm people like that had done us in the past, the pastor was nice, but used that analogy, then another came behind with his, ‘I love Spurgeon’ comment.
They love the praise of men more than the praise of God I guess…
Chas, the last time I looked on the BGEA website it had turning from sins as a step for receiving eternal life. Until Franklin Graham repudiates the false gospel on the family site, I will continue to mark and avoid him.
Regarding Ironside, some of his comments would lead to unhealthy introspection, so I do not use him for a source of quotes.
Who knows what anyone believes, we can only respond to what they write or say.
God bless you as well!
It seems to be a tendency among some of the proponents of “soft” LS to leave out any mention of “turning from sin” in the short form of their presentation. Then they insert their mis-defined version of repentance into the mix later. Given his past record, FG may be doing that. Or not. Maybe FG has finally got the Gospel straight. Glad I don’t have to wait for his epiphany to have it straight myself.
As most here know, others insist they are against LS, but retreat to the “a real Christian WILL have a changed life eventually” subterfuge. I got into an email exchange a couple weeks ago with one of the administrators of a discernment site where an old article by H.A. Ironside was posted as “encouragement” for readers having trouble with assurance of salvation. Ironside began fairly well with an explanation of “repentance”–what it is not–but then ripped the foundation out from under his whole argument by directing the reader back to self with this bit of advice:
Hoo-boy, that’s it, get the person’s attention back of them self. That’ll instill some assurance in the troubled individual! And then, what should the person look for?
So a person’s perceived desire for sanctification is to be the source of assurance? A measure of whether they’ve really repented or not? According to Ironside, it is. As usual, a reliable gauge for any such desire is nowhere offered. (‘Cus there ain’t one.)
I posted a response to the article, which showed in the thread for a little while but then disappeared. I waited a week to see if it would show, in case it had gotten buried in moderation, but it never reappeared. I posted another version saying essentially the same thing. Again; it showed as posted, but then disappeared within a couple hours. I waited a day for it to appear, and when it didn’t I contacted the SA asking why my responses to posts were getting dropped. She was very nice, pointing out that there was no problem with the site’s operation. It was that “we” (they) didn’t think what I had posted reflected what Ironside actually believed. I replied that I had quoted him directly from his own article, verbatim, in context. I asked, “If Ironside didn’t believe what he wrote, how can anyone know what he actually believed?” That question was never answered.
There was another round in the email exchange, which featured some good examples of them reading into my statements instead of comprehending them. It went nowhere. But clearly, they don’t like any criticism of Ironside. I asked them if they thought Ironside was infallible, or if his writings are beyond reproach. She insisted they do not believe that, but “His works have been helpful to us.” They insisted I was misrepresenting him, but I wasn’t. It’s obvious that on their site any criticism of Ironside is forbidden. So much for “discernment”.
Frustrating, but such incidents make me appreciate this site even more. God bless you guys!
Holly, I hope so too.
Johninnc, I always hope they might share something true.
Franklin Graham was on an ad, the only thing he got wrong was ‘if you prayed this prayer’ but the sharing of the gospel didn’t add any turning from sin, surrendering all, etc., he used ‘believe’. I keep hoping they actually forget to add the works, that some might be saved.
Holly, you had shared something similar from Michael Youssef a while back:
“Jesus, Jihad and Peace” – page 221
Michael Youssef says: “But to obtain this free gift, you have to surrender. You have to give up and let Jesus take control of your life…”
I don’t think he is clear on the gospel.
I was watching news and Michael Youssef came on a commercial about finding true peace. I visited to see his gospel. He was o.k. for a bit until it was obvious he doesn’t understand the word ‘repent’ and although he didn’t state it, obviously thinks public confession is part of it. Shame…
Then he said this:
You cannot earn God’s forgiveness; you can only receive it freely, all God requires of you is to turn away from your old life and turn to Him, surrendering your life to Him. See Rom 10:9; Acts 3:19; Luke 15:20
One from today:
“He loves us all, and He manifested His love by sending His Son to die on the Cross for our sins, and we must repent of our sin and accept that free gift by faith to partake of that love. Otherwise, eternity in the Lake of Fire is the destination. The only way of reconciliation to God is the way He provided.”
My comment: If we must repent of our sins, then eternal life is not a free gift. The above comment is a false gospel of works for eternal life.
Jason, that’s a new one to me… I have heard of the black Israelites movement, but every day in replacement type theology and hebrew roots there is some new sect, movement, error, confusion….
Johninnc.
Exactly. Ask God to show you, but let me tell you a bunch of stuff that is not found in His Word.
Jason, I had heard some snippets of this kind of teaching. There seems to be no end to the twists and turns that people will take.
The new heresy on the block is Israel Only (IO). It is Full Preterism #NextLevel. It is promoted on YouTube. One of its proponents is a former Ralph Yankee Arnold fan. They teach that the whole Bible from cover to cover is for Israel Only, including John 3:16 and Paul’s epistles. Calvinists say that “world” means “elect”, but these nuts say that “world” means the “covenant world”. They say that “Gentile” really means a “lapsed Jew”. They reduce Yahweh to a local deity like Zeus. They are headed for liberalism. Sad to see.
Chas, agree. It was a total LS mess!
johninnc…
Thanks for the clarification, John. I’m glad that the person got “believing” in their message somewhere, but that was quite a long excerpt to read over without seeing any mention of the actual requirement for salvation. (And then, there’s also the issue of what “believing” means to the person.)
Holly, this one was so reminiscent of the “turn from sin” false gospel substitutes that are so common. The twist is that the prayer asking for God to show you the truth, if answered, would not include the phony add-ons.
Quite a formula.
Hope you are sincere in wanting to know.
Don’t forget to ask God to show you the truth. (I can agree with this as a good thing, but not as a necessity)
Be sorry for your sins...
(what if it didn’t happen ‘suddenly‘ then what?)
(what if I wasn’t sincere enough? Should I start over?)
(How many sins? What if I forgot some? What if I wasn’t sure I ‘sincerely’ want to stop some? What if I wasn’t sorry yet for some?
And HOW does an ungodly sinner without strength do this?)
And what is the ‘something’ that is supposed to happen? (IF you read it AND ask Him to show you yet nothing happens, DO IT AGAIN.)
Oh… Ask Him HARDER.
Do this until you understand….
You must seek Him with your whole heart.
(no fear here) “IF you follow these simple instruction, you WILL be saved but do it very soon.”
As you all said above, no gospel given at all. I understand that Romans does tell us that Christ died for us, what the penalty for our sin is, what the free gift is, and that by believing we are made righteous etc. But they were busy adding their own parameters to what one must do.
Chas, this was an excerpt. They had briefly mentioned believing elsewhere, but when they explained how to become saved, their focus was squarely on turning from sins. They most likely include turning from sins as an indispensable part of believing, or that believing and turning from sin are the same thing.
Not only does the person make “turning from sin” a requirement for salvation, but they fail to mention the crucial thing that does save; believing in Christ’s sacrifice for one’s sin.
A double face-palm.
Here is an excerpt from a comment I read today:
Go to Dollar Tree and get a King James Bible for a buck. Get alone, turn to the back of the book to Romans. Before you begin to read, ask God to show you the Truth. If you sincerely want to know in your heart, He will show you. Suddenly, you will be sorry for your sins and repent (turn) from them and you will be saved forever from your sins. You are now born again. IF you read it AND ask Him to show you yet nothing happens, DO IT AGAIN. Ask Him HARDER and do this until you understand. You must seek Him with your whole heart. IF you follow these simple instruction, you WILL be saved but do it very soon.
My comment: Notice the writer’s focus on being sorry for your sins and turning from them versus believing in Jesus as Savior. Being sorry for your sins and turning from them is not required to receive eternal life. When someone believes in Jesus as Savior, they receive eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited. This person suggests praying for God to help you understand, which is fine. But, then he gives a false gospel message that is likely to impede your understanding of the true gospel.
Phillip, I just don’t see love at all with them. They malign God’s good character in the name of their theological position which really isn’t about God at all, at least not our God nor His Word.
Chas – it angers me now knowing what I know from them. They’re such ‘girlfriends’ that they suck in so many who just want to be loved, just want fellowship, want to be closer to Him. And they think they’re getting taught the Bible but they take one passage or even or portion and misconstrue it and turn it into a mantra.
You did make me laugh about her fussiness.
Those divine appointments happen, but I don’t think it’s quite like they portray. And I’m sure many times we may not know what effect we had. I do know that each time we’re able to plant or water, they can call it that. This is a thirsty world. They’re busy giving them a hairbrush instead of the truth.
Phil, you may be right. They also only see God’s love as being good news for them.
John and Keth: sometimes I think that Calvinist teachings, instead of being about God’s love and faith in God instead end up being about a cold mental exercise in ongoing theological debate.
Keith, I also don’t get why Calvinists even feel the need to spew their false gospel, unless their god puts them up to it.
The same guy who made the comment I referenced made several others, including one in which he basked in how good it was to be one of his god’s chosen ones.
John, as usual, the Calvinist misapplies the doctrine of election to God’s choosing some to believe and be saved, rather than the Biblical application, which is God’s choosing the believer to serve Him by being a minister of reconciliation to a lost world. Consequently, the Calvinist must look for confirmatory “evidence” that he is one of the elect and has been spiritually regenerated, instead of believing the promise of eternal life to all who believe (John 5:24). .
One from today:
God loves everyone with a common grace, but He only loves His elect with saving grace. Jesus didn’t die for everyone
My comment: This person isn’t describing the God of the Bible, but a false calvinist god. This false Calvinist doctrine is not good news at all. People whom their god selected wouldn’t really need to hear it, and for others it offers no hope.
hollysgarcia: Interesting point about Beth Moore’s supposed “call” to brush some disheveled stranger’s hair. Had to be the call of God, right? Couldn’t possibly be her own fussiness. OH no! (Maybe she has the gift of OCD.) And ya gotta love the implication of God leading her to NOT preach her particular message to the poor guy. “Oh btw Beth, be sure you don’t drop your usual heretical schtick on the man. There’s a good girl…”
But those kinds of stories are what haunted me for much of my first few years of Evangelical Church-ness. It wasn’t that I wondered why such things never happened to me, it was supposing that they were and trying to follow every stray impulse that seemed to be “of the Lord” which would enter my mind moment by moment. A person’s thoughts run in those directions when in the company of supposedly “Spirit-filled” people. Sometimes I’d spend sleepless nights thinking that I should maybe go out in the wee hours and “witness” to whomever I would encounter. Isn’t that what true Christians should do; witness to people all the time? That’s what Arthur Blessitt said. That’s what Bill Bright said. “Divine appointment” and all that. You’re not a “committed” Christian if you don’t! “Wassa-matter, ashamed of the Gospel?” No telling how many hours I spent patrolling the freeways, looking for hitch-hikers to “witness” to. Good thing gas was cheap back then. And then there’s all the people who crossed my path during the course of a typical day. How guilty I felt at day’s end for not “witnessing” to each and every one of them! (Mercifully, they were usually well-kempt.)
Ironically, it wouldn’t have been the Gospel I’d have been preaching. It would have been the “give your life to Jesus to be saved” false “gospel” that so many prominent evangelicals promote. The same evangelicals who are always pushing people to “serve the Lord” by proclaiming their particular brand of heresy. I guess–back then–the Lord was keeping my mouth shut as well.
Johninnc, and those who listen to T.D. Jakes about things regarding the nature and character of God, or his false gospel, will be going down the broad way we know.
Kevin, I read that. Those kinds of stories play on people’s emotions. And one way these (maybe well-meaning) load-shippers do it is telling about their alms-giving in public. I don’t know if her stories are true or not, or sincere or not. But I am sure glad she didn’t witness to him with her false gospel. I shake my head too at the damage they do also to young believers who wonder why they never have any of these experiences from God.
Keith, nice!
John, they comb the scriptures in vain to find support for their false gospel.
Keith, wow. It just goes to show you, when God decides to provide extra-biblical revelation, we mustn’t brush it off (play on words and sarcasm intended).
Here’s one from Beth Moore:
In one of her most famous talks, Moore describes an encounter with a haggard, elderly man in an airport terminal. Suddenly, she feels called by God to brush the man’s hair—not to bear witness to him, or even help him board his plane, but to smooth his tangled locks. Moore describes her embarrassment, recounting her inner dialogue with God, in which she tries to talk her way out of the divine directive. Ultimately, however, she obeys. What began as a comic set piece ends as a moving testament to faith and the power of intimate acts of kindness. The Lord knows what our need is, Moore says. “The man didn’t need witnessing to. He needed his hair brushed!”
Moore was obeying the Great Commission. You know, the charge Jesus gave to His Disciples: “Go into all the world and brush the hair of every creature. He who has unkept hair is damned. He who is baptized then brushed his hair will be saved”.
Sarcasm intended.
Here is a quote from the latest article by T.D. Jakes entitled “Race and policing – Church leaders must drive national conversation, action plan”
You cannot be a Christian and stay silent.
My comment: Christians should always be on the side of justice. But, the degree to which one may feel compelled to glom onto the political exigency du jour is often #virtue signaling. T.D. Jake’s sweeping declaration could be viewed as an attempt at providing evidence that one has eternal life by advocacy for his position.
Jason, their god is all kinds of things that God is not.
Their god is a manipulator.
Thank you John 🙂
Well said Chas and Hobbs. That’s one of my least favorite things when they defend the reasons why they are in error. Maybe we just need to talk about the error, and leave the person to God. I love it (not) when they say they are ‘brothers in Christ’. How on earth would they know that when a wolf teaches a false gospel?
Chas, yes Malcolm and Alwyn were a mainstay of the church music scene over here at the time. I also remember buying Malcolm Wild’s solo album ‘Broken Chains’ but not sure I played it much for some reason – probably just liked the cover! (I was only 16).
Boy, I had some nightmares reading Charles Finney’s sermons online (some 15 years ago now). They so freaked me out I ended up contacting a local church leader for help, he concluded the stuff should be ‘burned’ it was so disturbing, although he also said one had to bear in mind the historic context for which it was written, if that makes any difference?
Yeah I think perhaps I see my friend behaving the way you describe that pastor, trying to weigh ‘LS error’ with the clear gospel and it just can’t be done; they’re polar opposites. It creates a kind of diabolical perpetual motion that confuses the mind – works/grace/works/grace/works/grace…
Holly, I know. They’ve gotten themselves twisted up in knots. If they try to argue with me, I can just tell them their god made me disagree with them.
They never seem to want to admit that point Johninnc (that their god is controlling everything someone else does). But think on what it will cost some of them, when someone does something completely evil to someone they love and they think God caused that murder, child rape, etc.
Of course radicals like James White at least admit it.
chas, there is no good answer for people who teach one must turn from sin (repent of sin) or be willing to turn from sin in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. They have added works that no one, including themselves can keep.
Hobbs…
Yes, those are a few of the groups of CC’s Maranatha Music publishing entity. Also Daniel Amos, Parable, Mustard Seed Faith and others.
You’re in the UK? Do you remember Malcolm and Alwyn? Besides being a musician, Malcolm Wild was an assistant pastor at CCCM when I was there. He tended to be more Arminian in his theology, being “a big fan of Charles Finney” according to a close acquaintance. He was definitely LS-inclined. (Dunno if he still is.) I’ve mentioned on this site before of how I once–in sheer frustration and near despair–asked him about repentance in salvation after attending his Tuesday night Bible class at CCCM. My question was basically this: If a person repents of sin, yet continues to keep sinning (as we all do), how do they know if their repentance is real? And if repentance is necessary for salvation, how do they know their salvation is real?
The question seemed to confuse him. I don’t think he got the point of what I was asking exactly, or if he did, he seemed to be trying to soften the implications of his view. His hesitating answer was disjointed, and did nothing to clarify the issue. Poor guy. He really was trying to help, but his LS error blinded him and tied his hands.
Holly, agree. And, it goes further than that. They would have to admit that God controls everything that anyone does.
Holly, I agree. No need to ingest poison from people who are known to preach a false gospel.
Also, as far as Calvary chapels, a lot of them tended to be ecumenical as long as another religion (like Catholicism) was charismatic.
We recently had a discussion in one group about one of their favorites, J.D. Farag. He not only does the A-B-C method of salvation, but the statement of faith on his website says for salvation you must repent from sin and confess Jesus Christ as Lord. Those defending him were wanting me to watch videos of him speaking out against lordship.
Thing is people don’t realize, that we have to mark and avoid, and if they currently have a false gospel, why on earth would I want to listen to a sermon of his?
In addition to evanescent grace, Calvinists have to admit that God blinds the non-elect from believing the gospel, so they absolutely assign what is said about Satan to God (from 2 Cor 4).
Chas, thanks for the information.
Looked up Calvary Chapel, I see that bands/musicians such as Love Song, Chuck Girard and others kind of emerged from there? Their music was a big part of my church life as a youth in the UK and I certainly really appreciated it, still can I guess. Won’t elaborate though for obvious reasons.
Calvinist Privilege: benefitting from the historic oppression of the unelect and thinking that it is the sovereign will of god. These funky, nasty, crooked Calvinists also invented “children of a lesser god” as a label for people that they conquered. Manicheans.
Hobbs…
It’s true that people can be de-facto Calvinists without knowing it. That condition permeated Calvary Chapel when I was there (mid-’70’s through mid-’90s). In those days I thought there were basically just two possible views; Calvinist and Arminian. Most CC-ites rejected Arminianism because it holds that a believer can lose their salvation. That left Calvinism, though some CC-ites rejected certain Calvinist doctrines. During that time I always had the impression that CS “leaned toward Calvinism”, but I was also unclear on many of Calvinism’s key doctrines, so my perceptions of “Pastor Chuck” and Calvinism in general were hazy.
Chuck Smith always insisted that he was neither Calvinist nor Arminian, but interestingly enough, after a “Pastor’s Perspective” episode in which Chuck Smith attempted to refute the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 8:28-30, James White (a staunch Calvinist) mocked Smith’s argument as a way to “make more Calvinists”, apparently claiming that Smith had in fact supported Calvinism with his argument against it. I had difficulty following White’s logic, but hey–he’s a Calvinist! Near as I could make out, White claimed Smith had–evidently–retained enough residual Calvinism in his argument to support what he (Smith) was trying to disprove. White was quite amused by Smith’s supposed gaffe.
Since my separation from CCCM, I’ve arrived at the conclusion that Smith’s soteriology was muddled, at best. It was no small source of confusion and anxiety for me and a lot of others. Residual Calvinism can really mess one up, even if one refuses to own the label.
Hobbs, the “evanescent grace” that Calvinists teach is an awful concept. The God of the Bible did not devise it.
You are right that there are a lot of Calvinists who don’t even realize they are Calvinists. Another example is that many SBC members deny that they are Calvinists, because they reject one or more of the tenets of Calvinism. But, anyone who adheres to even one of the false tenets of Calvinism has allowed himself to become compromised by false doctrine that undermines the gospel.
I remember Holly saying recently that if more people knew about the ‘evanescent grace’ thing they’d realise just how awful calvinism is. A case in point, I told my friend about it the other week, he hadn’t heard of it, but his immediate reaction was that it sounded like something from satan; the idea a loving God would trick people into thinking they’re saved when they’re not. Strangely, he said he didn’t know much about calvinism, but I was pretty sure he was the one who introduced me to it back in the early ’80’s. I pointed out that we can often be in church groups that are based in calvinism without even knowing it. I think the charismatic ‘movement’ we were in back in the 80’s, is just such an example. One of the bigger leaders of it at the time even ended up dismissing it as “just a system devised to allow people to feel superior about being ‘the elect’ “.
Hmm. Oh well…
Correction john. According to Wiki. Scott was an atheist. In this short video he was giving an explanation of the TULIP to a young woman in a bus or train station. So, I’m not sure where he stood on Calvinism?
Phil, that’s interesting. Sad, but interesting.
Just an anecdote, john…..I saw a short video given by the late actor George C. Scott. In it he gave a short explanation of the acronym “The TULIP”.. He was rather calm like it was some accepted norm in Christianity, scary. I suspect Scott was a Calvinist.
Phil, if they were consistent with their faulty logic, they would have to insist that their god made them write wha they wrote and also caused us to refute it.
You can defeat a Calvinist’s arguments simply by sticking to Scripture rightly divided. Calvinists believe that scripture has to be looked at through their lens of man-made doctrines, creeds, and confessions. In effect, truth ends up being their confessions and not what the Bible makes abundantly clear… If you try to debate with them using their man made doctrines and dogmas, it’s just an endless debate roller coaster. They love the intellectual theological stimulation over the edification of the Bible.
From Steve’s post this shows they think we are ignorant and depraved. So they condescend to us.
Holy, very well said!
Thank you John and Phil for answering poor Steve.
These people that believe they are chosen and handed these gifts of ‘faith, repentance, love’ and yet need proof of that fact, haven’t considered that in the false doctrine of Calvinism, they very well could be one of those chosen for ‘evanescent grace’ (fooling them into thinking they are believers all their lives).
This is the kind of god they preach. The god that blinds minds of some to the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ. We know that 2 Cor 4 identifies that god as the god of this age, or this world, and is not the God over all.
Just in case you are still there Steve. Your use of the word “repent” is the usual modern twisting of the word. In the New Testament Greek it simply means to change ones mind. It does NOT mean to change ones actions, or turn over a new leaf, forsake ones sins, or make ones self into a new creation. It is simply a change of mind-which is its correct definition. John, in his Gospel, his epistles, and Revelation, NEVER uses the word repent for eternal salvation: he instead uses “believe”. That is because everyone who believes in Jesus for salvation has changed his mind from unbelief to believing in Him as their Savior.
Steve, the Lord Jesus Christ has already freely provided your complete salvation for you as a gift. He paid the penalty for all your sins dying for all of them on the cross, was buried, and was raised from the dead. When you or anyone is willing to believe this then they are from that moment on completely and eternally saved and have been raised with Christ to new life. We are then free to walk in the Spirit in this new saved life God has given us and in the good works he leads us in.
johninnc, yes these posts can serve as examples of what we need to avoid, or what we can already be unknowingly infected by. Many thanks for your work in defending the faith.
Hobbs, yeah, that is why Satan compels people to write this stuff. God would not try to entangle your mind and heart, nor drag you down.
Let’s hope that something beneficial comes of our interaction with Steve, in that he, or someone else who teaches or is inclined to believe the false gospel of Calvinism might see how ludicrous and unbiblical these teachings really are.
Satan uses scripture out of context and twisted in its interpretation to fool people. He is the prince of this world that causes men to revere men and refer to Spurgeon as “The Prince of Preachers.”
Boy, yeah, that post… felt like something trying to entangle my mind and heart, dragging me down. That sort of stuff feels very unhealthy.
Steve Allen, thanks for swinging by. Your false Calvinist doctrine is not welcome here.
You said: Indeed, it is also written that those things which save us; belief, faith, repentence, and love are first given to us.
My comment: God does not give us belief/faith. This is our responsibility. Eternal life, not belief, is the gift of God (Romans 6:23).
One cannot have Christian love for another without being a Christian. Only Christians can choose whether or not to walk in the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit is how we manifest the fruit of the Spirit, which includes love.
You said: The full Gospel includes these things which you must have come from our Fathers Spirit which He gives you daily.
My comment: The gospel is the message of how Christ provided completely for our salvation. It is a message to be believed. Again, belief is not a gift from God, but our response to the gospel message.
You said: Belief, faith, repentance, love are proof of our salvation. His spirit which He promised. These that save us are not our works.
My comment: Belief, faith, and repentance (when properly defined in a an eternal salvation context) are not works. They are responses to the gospel message. These do not save us, but rather accept the finished work of Christ on our behalf. They are our responsibility. They are not works. Love, as I mentioned above, is a fruit of the Spirit.
You said: “The ways of man are pure in his own eyes, but God weighs the spirit.” (in which it was done, motive, intent).
My comment: For believers, our work will be evaluated at the judgment seat of Christ, including our motives. Those productive things done by us with the proper motive will result in reward.
You said: To error with good intent – mercy; Do what’s right with ill intent – judgement
My comment: Good intentions are good, but if they have potentially disastrous consequences they are likely not of God. For example, you may have good intentions in propagating your false gospel, but it is in no way rewardable.
Steve Allen, you are a false teacher. If what you have written is correct, then anyone’s response to it is pre-ordained by God. Your false gospel is that God chooses who will believe – whether anyone or everyone, or anything in between. Your false gospel is that God will compel you to write this and compel me to accept or reject it. God did not compel you to write this. My belief in the true gospel of Jesus Christ compels me to reject it.
Indeed, it is also written that those things which save us; belief, faith, repentence, and love are first given to us.
Can we fulfill the law to love one another without a loving spirit?
The largest false doctrine is preached as a half truth. “You” must believe. “You” must repent. “You” must have faith, “You” must love one another. False when insinuating these come from us.
The full Gospel includes these things which you must have come from our Fathers Spirit which He gives you daily.
“Give us today our daily bread”.
“I believe, help me in my unbelief”
measure of faith
The different gifts
Belief, faith, repentance, love are proof of our salvation. His spirit which He promised. These that save us are not our works.
It is His Spirit that compels us that there are no laws against. I can illegally jaywalk to save a child so that our intent being compelled by His Spirit justifies our actions and declares us innocent in spite of the no jaywalking law I broke.
“The ways of man are pure in his own eyes, but God weighs the spirit.” (in which it was done, motive, intent).
To error with good intent – mercy
Do what’s right with ill intent – judgement
Holly, yes I did wonder if it was true or not that ‘all God’s promises are conditional’. Thanks.
Hobbs, they obviously don’t understand the nature of many of His unconditional covenants. The Abrahamic covenant was unconditional of course, unilateral, God swore by Himself and there is no greater (Gen 15; Heb 6). I wish people would pray and study for themselves humbly asking God to show them.
Hobbs, understood!
johninnc, yes, no conditions. I wrote that in a bit of an ambiguous way for some reason. I was registering my objection but it sounded like I was having doubts! lol.
Hobbs, once a person has believed in Jesus as Savior, he has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited – there are no conditions.
From an online sermon:
‘We tend to forget that all of God’s promises in the Bible are conditional’.
I thought, but not the promise of eternal life!
If it’s conditional then it’s not a free gift.
Jason, you’re right.
Adeola was reporting on the rigged elections in Togo, and one of her followers made this satirical comment: “No African leader will see heaven”. Seriously, the way to heaven is open, even to a madman like Hitler, by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Jason, that is a really confusing tweet.
I hear a lot of people talking about “spirituality” today, and it’s likely that not all of them have the Holy Spirit that comes to indwell a person the moment he believes in Christ as Savior.
And, one need not know or believe everything in the Bible in order to have eternal life. In fact, many people who claim to believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God have rejected God’s way of eternal life.
I saw this tweet: “There are some who claim to be spiritual. It doesn’t matter if people are ‘spiritual’ if they aren’t Biblical they will go to hell”
Believing the Bible is not a condition for receiving eternal life. Believing the Gospel is. The Bible is for discipleship. Carnal Christians do all sorts of unbiblical things and are saved. This guy is full of LS.
What I mean is that it is typical for lordship sites to use John 14:6 to scare people. I agree that I should have worded it more carefully.
Holly, very well said.
Completely agree John.
I’m seeing this trend on FB where people make statements, maybe with good intentions, but unknowingly they are actually causing confusion and undermining His Word in some cases. It’s best to stick as close as possible to His Word when we are stating something as if it is truth.
Holly, I completely agree that Jesus is the only way we can have eternal life.
If He had not died for our sins and been raised from the dead, our faith would be in vain (1 Corinthians 15:17).
Yes, eternal life is the gift of God, but it is through Jesus Christ (Romans 6:23). The gift of eternal life and Jesus are inseparable.
Jason, you said a similar thing on FB, that Jesus is not the only way that Grace is the only way.
This is why I quoted John 14:6, and Titus 2:11. It points people to Christ who is the only way, who is the truth, and who brings eternal life. He is the Savior and the way to be saved through belief on Him.
As a friend I’d really caution you to be careful how you speak about Scripture and how you word things which may not line up with His Word. We shouldn’t lightly say things like that.
Jason, neither that verse, nor any other, denies eternal security. It’s a shame that anyone would deny eternal security, when the Bible so clearly teaches it.
One receives eternal life when he believes in Jesus as his Savior. Eternal life is eternal.
I observe a curious phenomenon: so many people love to quote John 14:6. They think it’s the gospel. They repeat ad nauseam, Jesus is the only way. Whenever I dig deeper, I see denial of eternal security. Grace is the only way. They are clueless.
Phil, it is double talk.
And, regardless of their motive, teaching a false gospel is inexcusable.
I have noticed a trend with LS statements, like with Franklin Graham’s. They will state unequivocally what is clearly lordship salvation, but then if they are challenged they will say like, “that’s not really what we mean” and then try to explain it away as grace alone. Sounds like double talk.
I wrote to the Billy Graham association years ago about their insisting on faith plus repentance and changed life for eternal life. But they replied in so many words. “all we want is people to accept and commit to Christ.” So are they saying all the repentance, change of life style, counting the cost, and so on is just to get you to commit you faith to Christ?
Following is an excerpt from a Franklin Graham quote that I found in an old article today (from around 2012):
For me, the definition of a Christian is whether we have given our life to Christ and are following him in faith and we have trusted him as our lord and savior.
My comment: according to the Bible, a Christian is someone who has believed in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.
One need not “give their life to Christ” in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. Further, the concept of “following Him in faith” as a condition for being a Christian can imply that something more than believing in Jesus as Savior, such as agreeing to faithfully follow Him, is required to receive the free gift of eternal life. Last, “trusting in Him as Lord and Savior” can imply that one must do something, such as “making Jesus Lord of his life,” in order to receive the free gift of eternal life.
Franklin Graham’s definition of a Christian is not the same as the Bible’s definition of a Christian.
Another comment: “‘I have no fear of depths, and a great fear of shallow living”
I avoid depths like the plague. I don’t believe in deeper life. I am a proud shallow liver. Keep it simple, keep it real.
Jason, I have seen similar approaches to discrediting the apostle Paul.
While I was reading posts of a friend of a friend who commented on a post of a person that I am following, I saw this comment:
“”This Paul is indeed a strange man. His soul is not the soul of a free man. He speaks not of Jesus nor does he repeat His Words. He would strike with his own hammer upon the anvil in the Name of One whom he does not know”
Last time I checked, Acts 16:31 and John 3:16 are essentially the same. The soul of a lordshipper or a sacred namer is not the soul of a free man at all. His settings did not let me comment.
Jason, I agree. That was the point. The quote made it seem like God views someone as righteous by virtue of their having performed all of these works, when God sees anyone who has believed in Jesus as Savior as perfectly righteous.
Since these things are not necessary, then why are they offered as the basis for knowing that God only sees the righteousness of Christ? He sounds confused.
We received the below comment today from one of our friends:
Isn’t it incredible that once you’ve repented of your sinfulness and given your life over to Jesus, loving him and following him, that God only sees the righteousness of Christ when he looks at you?
Our friend rightly pointed out that it is not true that one has to do any of these things in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
John, I agree that is a good example of an errant understanding of the gospel.
In my previous post, I meant to cite John 5:24 rather than 10:24.
Keith, I thought this would be a great example of an errant belief system, and that perhaps someone reading who has been infected by false religions would read it and inquire further.
John, the quote you shared is another form of the pervasive idea that the sinner must make repeated and ongoing offerings for his or her sins in order to enter heaven or have the assurance that he or she will enter heaven at death. This is prevalent in all forms of religious thought including apostate Judaism (observing the Torah), Islam (praying to Allah seven times a day), Roman Catholicism (receiving the Eucharist at mass throughout one’s life) and Lordship “salvation” (maintaining one’s commitment to and persevering in good works).
By contrast, in the Biblical Gospel, eternal life is received once by faith, and this need never be repeated (John 10:24; Heb. 6:1-3). It is an instantaneous and irreversible act of God by which He forever justifies the sinner and imparts divine righteousness to the believer’s spirit through faith. From that moment on, the believer is guaranteed future entry into heaven whether he or she continues in the faith or falls away, although that is never God’s intention.
I read the following last week:
I hope that in his goodness he will hear my last prayers, together with those which I have long poured forth, entreating him to receive my soul in his mercy and kindness.
My comment: this was from the english translation of the last letter written by Queen Marie Antoinette of France.
It is reminiscent of the prayer that ends with “if I should die before I wake, I pray dear God my soul to take.”
Anyone who has believed in Jesus as Savior has eternal life, and need not entreat God to receive their soul upon their death.
I agree. I have lived through thirty years of words-induced confusion. It is sad to see it continue perpetually in every corner of the world.
Jason, believing in the Lord Jesus as your Savior includes believing that He is enough for you personally. When someone says “accept the Lord Jesus as your Lord and Savior,” it can confuse the matter and make the reader/listener think that one must do something, such as make Jesus “Lord of his life” in order to receive the free gift of eternal life.
Bishop Oluwadamilola posted: “All Muslim must change to christian.
Jesus is the way, the truth and the life…
Accept the lord Jesus as your lord and personal savior, tomorrow maybe too late”
I don’t know this pastor, but putting “personal” in front of Savior makes that statement ring accurate.
I saw the following statement in an article critical of the false prosperity gospel:
If you want to know what following the will of God looks like in practice, look at Jesus, who was brutally tortured and murdered on the cross for our sins. Look at all the apostles and martyrs who died on account of proclaiming the Gospel.
These people didn’t receive back what they lost in earthly prizes or see their bank accounts increase. They sacrificed their lives for the sake of God’s true word in order to receive the gift of heaven.
My comment: Everything is OK until the last sentence. The writer says that the apostles and martyrs sacrificed their lives IN ORDER to receive the GIFT of heaven.
This is heretical nonsense. One does not need to sacrifice ANYTHING to receive the GIFT of eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t know better who reads this tripe would think that we receive eternal life based on our works.
jason, it sounds like there’s quite a mixed-bag, including lots of error.
We have managed (mostly) to keep the expreacherman ministry focused on promoting and defending the gospel. If we were to allow it, we would have way more traffic, but would undermine our purpose.
I am uneasy about some of Renee Roland’s friends. 4themosthighjesus claims that Yahweh is the name of Satan. She reads from Watchman Nee, who was part of the NAR. It is beyond C Peter Wagner. My studies have concluded that the NAR goes back to Azusa Street and even Spurgeon. The NAR today includes IHOP, Beth-aven, and Hellsong. It is connected with the fake pastors and Nazi presidents of Africa. I believe they participated in Museveni’s genocide through the Lord’s Resistance Army, along the Congo-Uganda border. Nee himself discipled Witness Lee, who spawned Eastern Lightning, which is clearly a terrorist organization. Churchianity has its own ISIS and Bokkko Haram in the person of these entities.
I am truly upset that some of our friends quote these Reptilians. 4themosthighjesus agrees with Nee that there is automatic healing in the atonement. Like the New Apostate Racists themselves, they are naming and claiming things. They are mixing NAR teachings with Free Grace. They are pleading the blood. One of this user’s sources goes by “Good God” and has the wrong repentance. Who has bewitched them? They have not noticed that Watchman Nee died of his last disease. I get sick and tired of these deep teachings. They say we all died in Christ. They mean it literally. What nonsense. So sad. As for Yahweh being Satan, didn’t Gnostics teach these things? It’s like Joseph Prince all over again.
Jason, yeah, some of these guys are all over the place.
I saw someone share a sermon from Abel Damina. His voice boomed out the words: “God walked out of God”. That’s mumbo jumbo. And then he got weirder: “the first birth of Christ was the appearance of God in human form”. I didn’t know there was more than one. When do come up with such nonsense?
Holly, I hope that you and your family have a great Christmas as well. Thanks for the reminder that we are never alone.
John 6:47 – I think of that one too. They are the modern day Pharisees. Definitely blind leading the blind, holier than thou hypocrites that don’t even see the forest of their sins for the tree of their self-righteous ‘wonderful works’.
PhilR – Fear… exactly. Paul Washer is another fear monger, along with Ray Comfort-less. Excellent reminder (Matt 23). We were talking about that the other day. If people would see who He was talking to in Matt 23. What was about to transpire (their house was being left to them desolate and the physical temple was ready to be destroyed), and the 7 years left of Daniel’s prophecy to be visited upon Israel for their transgression.
Hope you all have a blessed, restful Christmas with loved ones, filled with comfort and joy. For those who may be alone at this time, remember with Jesus, you are never alone. I appreciate you all.
Jason,
I don’t know if we saw the same thing, but I also saw some of those masonic and mystical quotes by Spurgeon. I think his reformed friends cleaned up a lot of that stuff. Augustine was very mystical and strange too in a lot of his talks.
I agree with John, he was the prince of lordship teachers.
Keith, Piper is one to talk. He thinks God ordains rape and doesn’t know if he’d stop a rapist if they were raping his daughter or wife. So what is the point of Piper citing urgency when his god is in control of causing it all, good and bad?
Chas,
I notice that loadshippers almost always equate the ‘narrow way’ or ‘strait gate’ with a lifetime of works. I happen to equate the gate with Jesus and the way with Jesus. In Psalm 118 there is a prophecy that speaks of the gate and the way the righteous will enter, and then identifies that gate as the stone (Jesus) that the builders refused. John 14:6 of course identifies Jesus as the way. And John 10 says He is the door (also translated and means gate) of the sheep.
This prophecy is also about a gate that will re-open, but I find it interesting in light of the stone they rejected.
19 Open to me the gates of righteousness:
I will go into them, and I will praise the Lord:
20 this gate of the Lord,
into which the righteous shall enter.
21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me,
and art become my salvation.
22 The stone which the builders refused
is become the head stone of the corner.
Ps 118:19-22
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. John 10:1-2, 7-9
Phil, you may be right – they are either deceived, deceivers, or both. Loadship sells, so it makes a more lucrative business model.
John, I’m not so sure they can’t see it; some don’t want to. I think some of these loadship teachers like Piper and MacArthur are control freaks. They, like the Pharisees, want to manipulate their flocks with fear. I think some of them actually do know what the gospel of grace alone actually is, but they think their flocks will just sin up a storm with just believing, so they have to control their minds with a faith plus keeping the commandments as the means of salvation and keep their flocks on an endless treadmill of working their way to heaven. Jesus had to deal with the Pharisees of his day, Paul had to deal with his in Galatians, and today we have our load ship salvation Pharisees with their good works requirements for salvation, and their manual, MacArthur’s “The Gospel According to Jesus.”
Maybe Piper should read the “woes” of Matt 23 and look in the mirror.
A person comes to Christ’s sermon on the mount not keep the requirements of the law; but to come to the end of himself and trust in the One who has kept the requirements of the law perfectly for him and has the complete eternal remedy for all who will believe his gospel. (Rom 3:1-28; Rom 7:15–8:4: Rom chaps 4 and 5)
John 6:47, it really is amazing that they can’t see it.
Keith,
Whenever people like John Piper twist passages to teach works-for-salvation, I can’t help but think of 1 Timothy 1:7
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
If the self-righteous Pharisees of today REALLY understood what they were saying, they are, in fact, condemning themselves. I bet Piper has had a lustful thought at some point in his life. If he says otherwise, he is lying, and lying is a sin.
Keith, I agree with your take on this passage.
Here’s another one from Piper. The article was written in response to a reader who wanted to know how to battle sexual lust. Piper states:
“Jesus said,
You have heard that it was said,’You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. (Matthew 5:27–29)
Well, suggesting that we tear out our eye, because the issue is heaven and hell, is a call to urgency — about as strong a call to urgency as I can imagine. My oh my. Misplaced sexual desires — not just acts, but desires — is, it turns out, not such a small thing after all. So, urgency is essential”.
Jesus’ point in the above citation of scripture was that the law requires moral perfection on the part of those who would seek to be justified by keeping it. So if you try to be justified by keeping the law, you would need to pluck out your eye and cut off your hand and foot if that’s what it takes to keep you from sinning.
He presented a bleak picture for those under the law so that his listeners would repent Biblically, or change their minds about trying to be justified by keeping it so that they would instead believe on Him alone for eternal life.
chas, the NKJV is one that uses “difficult” instead of “narrow.”
Like you said, I don’t think that is a good translation. There is nothing “difficult” about taking Jesus at His word that He is both the gate and the way.
You are right that the main issue is that narrow leads to life and broad leads to destruction. And, a person having believed in Jesus as Savior is no guarantee that he cannot err and drift into legalism.
Matt. 7:13,14 does speak of two gates and two ways. The gate and way to life are described as “strait” and “narrow” respectively in the KJV, while the gate and way to destruction are described as “wide” and “broad”.
The NASB uses the words “small” for the gate and “narrow” for the way to life, with “wide” (gate) and “broad” (way) leading to destruction.
Essentially, the KJV and NASB are identical on this point. The main issue is narrow–>life, broad–>destruction, but I saw one site that showed vs. 14 as reading “difficult” for the way to life instead of “narrow”; a mistranslation. No surprise the site is heavily LS.
But the “way” to life is indeed narrow, just as the “gate” is. Having found and proceeded through that narrow gate to eternal life (free grace), how easy it still is to fall from the narrow way into LS legalism.
I understand. Thank you John.
Helen, I would be cautious with any commentaries. Some can be helpful, but none are a substitute for, nor on the level of scripture itself.
And, since no two are exactly the same on all matters of interpretation, none is infallible.
Helen, you are right to be wary of Leonard Ravenhill. According to previous comments here, Ravenhill teaches that a person can lose eternal life.
I went to a convention several years ago through the Sanctuary Convention, and I remember there were lots of free CDs and leaflet for people to take, and I ended up taking a few but rarely listening to them. One of them, which I still have, is by Leonard Ravenhill. I haven’t listened to it, but from what I’ve read about him he adds works.
The strait gate and the narrow way scriptures used to scare me, because I knew that I couldn’t possibly be this perfect holy human being, and now I am rested in Christ and I experience His peace and joy it’s amazing. I used to regularly read articles on Ligonier, gty and Desiring God, even Got Questions – all of the ‘dangerous’ websites. Thank you all for defending the gospel and helping confused once Christians like me to have assurance of salvation. God bless
I know, Phil. It’s just so difficult to look up a scripture on that StudyLight and know who to trust from its bible study tools. Is anyone aware of any trusted teachers on there?
Keith, you are right that Jesus is the straight gate and the narrow way.
John 10:9: I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
When Jesus spoke of the “narrow gate”, it was concerning how one “enters” life, not how he lives once he has entered it:
“Enter by the narrow gate…” -Matt. 7:13.
To the religious mindset, the idea that one can know he is going to Heaven by simply believing something, without more, is preposterous. Hence the addition of works, experiences, religious heritage, etc. as the full or partial requirement for eternal life, which is broad path leading to destruction and on which many travel.
Jason, you make a very good point. The way cannot be so narrow that it excludes believers. If it were, it would exclude everyone.
A picture post from Narrow Path Ministries Uganda:
“if you’re going to be a
true christian,
it’ll be a
lonely life.
it’s a
narrow way,
and it becomes
narrower and
narrower…” (all caps removed)
Ravenhill was labeled at the bottom right.
My thought: if you want to be a Christian, you can by simply believing the gospel. If you want to live as one, it will be lonely. It has been so lonely standing up for the true gospel, that even that ministry isn’t with me.
Most people who emphasize the narrowness of the way intimate that the way includes works. Those who are consistent on grace stress simplicity over narrowness. That has been my observation. The way cannot be so “narrow” that it excludes actual believers.
I am sad to see some friends fall for this. The word “holiness” scares them every time it booms from a pulpit.
Hi Helen, I am disappointed in Ironside too, enough that I avoid his writings. He is taking Matt 7:20 out of context. Jesus Is referring to knowing false prophets not Christian believers. The is much wisdom and truth that Christian believer can gain from the Gospels, but the Gospels including Matthew are directed to Israel as a nation still under the Law and not for doctrine for the body of Christ. Some teachers will try to take a verse or passage out of the OT or Gospels and make it stand on its own ignoring the doctrines of grace alone taught to the church in the Epistles.
It is a shame, but thanks so much for checking out the article and verifying that there are works in there. I wish these teachers were consistent in their beliefs and did not contradict here and there. Thank God for this site.
Helen, I read some of the excerpts from the link you provided and I agree that some of them were a little troubling.
Sometimes, the broad appeal of well-known theologians can be attributed to their being vague or inconsistent.
I have previously read at least one example of Ironside using life change as proof of the veracity of Christianity, and he seems to be inconsistent sometimes.
I am not sure about Ironside’s overall body of work, but I do not use him as a source for favorable quotes.
I was just doing a read on StudyLight on Matthew 7:20, “ye shall know them by their fruits”. It cannot be of works, because many ‘religious’ people do good works, but they do not have Christ, so I was a little disappointed to read of H A Ironside’s comments
(link removed by administrator)
Thank you, John. False messages are like toast crumbs. They get everywhere, and it’s our job as believers saved by the precious blood of Christ to make clean again.
Helen, you are correct. We are all baptized by the Holy Spirit at the moment of belief.
My neighbour has had a second ‘blessing’ of the Holy Spirit, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I told her it wasn’t necessary, she said it was. We are baptised into the Church through simple belief, that’s what I rest in. I don’t care what she thinks about me. I think she belongs to a charismatic church, as I’ve heard her plead the blood during prayer. She is big into Derek Prince, but I find his teachings confusing. Effective on fasting though.
Jason, you are right that people often don’t realize what they’re defending, particularly through careless quotes or associations.
Some comments are now denying that Bonnke preached tithing and prosperity. Ninyo Omidiji made it pretty that he is free grace in his recent posts. But looking back to Dec 8, I find where he defends Bonnke. Ninyo never himself uses the phrase “ask jesus into your heart”, but Bonnke was known for it. I am bewildered. People don’t know what they are defending.
Phil, it does seem like Bakker always turns his ministry into some sort of business.
I live in Charlotte and have visited the old Heritage USA ruins.
Yea john, I well aware of Jim Bakker’s past and present TV shows. His show seems to be magnet and stage for the likes for Michelle Bachmann and some others. I think Bakker is either mid-tribulation rapture or post tribulation thus pushing his 3 1/2 year or 7 year tribulation survival supplies. Seems Bakker always somehow turns his TV ministry into some sort of business.
I looked for some online site where Mike Lindell says he found salvation thought Christ alone. The closest I came was a video of Mike Lindell giving a talk at Liberty University, but he never told how he had trusted Christ as his Savior in this video.
Phil, I hope he has heard and believed the gospel. What you heard him talk about to Jim Bakker doesn’t really address the gospel.
Bakker is an oddball. He was selling “end of world” supplies last I heard.
Holly, Bonnke sounds like one to mark and avoid.
I came across The “My Pillow Man”, Mike Lindell, who was a guest on the Jim Bakker TV Show. He gave his testimony of how he kicked the crack addiction and surrendered to God, and God is giving his My Pillow business such success and the joy and happiness he has. I’m not disputing his testimony. But I looked online for more info from him and I could not find where he said that he had believed the good news the gospel of Christ’s finished work to save him. All I got was that he had turned his life and business over to Christ, kicked his drug addiction, and he gives all the credit to Jesus. I hear this “prosperity gospel” so much on TV, and I don’t know if Mike is promoting the “prosperity gospel”, but I can’t find where Mike stated where Christ died to pay for all his sins, was buried, and was raised from the dead for him to secure for him everlasting life, which is the true gospel available to all who will by faith accept this good news.
Yes Bonnke was one that taught a separate ‘baptism’ of the Holy Spirit, and if you didn’t speak in them you didn’t have the Spirit. So being born again wasn’t the baptism of the Spirit but a second blessing. Strange kind of lordship in that if you didn’t have signs and wonders then you had a problem because he said there were always ‘physical evidences’.
Anyways, he went so far beyond Scripture in even saying God’s power needs human hands, Jesus couldn’t have multiplied the loaves without His disciples. Smh, the error is really the same. Trust in self.
jason, I don’t know very much about Reinhard Bonnke, but based on previous comments (primarily from Holly) on expreacherman, he was another supposed “faith healer.”
I have seen people worship Reinhard Bonnke in the internet comments of the last 24 hours. Even people who are discerning about Benny Hinn and Johnson Suleman are celebrating his life. I don’t understand this. Aren’t Bonnke and Hinn birds of a feather?
John, I agree. They have to put works somewhere, at the front end, the back end, the middle, or all three.
Helen, the unregenerate thinking of the unbeliever or carnal thinking of the believer does not separate what one must do to receive eternal life, which is a one-time placement of one’s faith only in Christ and His finished work, and discipleship, or ongoing obedience to the commandments, which is what the believer is called to do to make his salvation productive. It seems right to them that they must work for eternal life, but we know that what seems right is often tragically wrong (Prov. 14:12), especially in matters of salvation.
Hi Keith. A lot of people really do confuse Christianity, and they mix discipleship into salvation. They are subtly stealing glory away from God, when our eyes are taken off the only treasure that is Christ. I think people do really trust that they have some redeeming good qualities, outside of God, contrary to what the Bible says.
I had one woman, when I told her that I prayed and read the bible, ask me if I was religious. I said no. Christianity is not religion.
If a so called Christian website is getting people to focus more on ‘what they do for Christ’ instead of His perfect work to redeem the sinner to the Father, I doubt they have got the gospel right. In the twelve or so websites I’ve viewed this week (trying to look for a grace teaching Church), none of them have said that salvation is a free gift of God, but they focus more on works. They mention Christ paid for our sins, but then comes the ‘evidence to prove salvation’ etc etc. it’s so draining, but we’ve got to keep going and keep letting the Holy Spirit discern truth from error in this dark antichrist world.
Hi Holly. There are some nasty people on FB, real religious folk who just don’t understand that grace and works don’t mix and they can’t. I’ve added a few articles on there myself, one of which was about the movie, Ghost, which teaches that good people like Sam Wheat (Patrick Swayze) go to heaven, and his mate who gets him killed for money, goes to hell. People were really nasty when I shared that article, cos I always loved that movie as a kid, but it’s not based on biblical salvation.
You keep going, girl. You are doing a great job on FB, and on your personal website, Redeeming Moments, and here too. Don’t let the ‘haters’ grind you down. Your defence of the gospel is not done in vain for the Lord. We love you, and you know what is most evident of websites like these – there is no condemnation . We encourage one another in love, because none of us are strong all the time, but some Christians like to beat us down when we are struggling. They are such hypocrites. Christ doesn’t, and we should not either. To grow in grace is to even more see our need for the freedom in Christ, because our sin nature is filthy and always present, and we are nothing without Him.
Keith, the article that you have quoted is indicative of the false gospel messages that pervade the world of professing Christendom. They just can’t seem to keep from falsely insinuating works into the gospel.
And here’s yet another one from John Piper’s “Desiring God” website. The writer is a guest who is a professor at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, which must be Reformed or Calvinistic.
The author of the article states:
“With voices of hope, the psalmists looked forward to the day when all peoples of the planet would praise the Lord and relish his favor. Paul, as a servant of Messiah Jesus, identifies that the aim of the gospel is “to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of [Christ’s] name among all the nations” — a mission that defines the very makeup of the church (Romans 1:5).1 Three elements are noteworthy with respect to this aim.
“First, the phrase “the obedience of faith” probably means “the obedience that always flows from faith.”2 Faith is the root and obedience the fruit, yet in a way that the two are never separated; saving faith submits to Christ’s lordship (Romans 6:17–18; 10:13–17).”
My comment: the “obedience of faith” means faith in Christ alone and in His promise alone on the basis of His finished work, apart from works of any kind past, present or future. The born-again believer who has exercised such faith may or may not obey in the sense of good works or fruit depending on whether he or she chooses to walk by the flesh or by the spirit, but possesses eternal life either way.
The unbeliever submits to the Lordship of Christ by turning from unbelief (works, faithfulness, obedience, etc.) and believing the promise of eternal life through Christ found in scripture. The result is possession eternal life which can never be lost, forfeited or nullified. The believer is called to submit to the Lordship of Christ by continuing to rest on the promise of eternal life and doing good works, resulting in progressive sanctification and ultimately, eternal reward, but still has eternal life whether he does or not.
Holly, yeah, Billy Graham spent a lot of time talking about counting the cost, when he should have been more concerned about getting the gospel straight.
John, that presumption is unbelievable to me, especially when the ones presuming it are often unkind or snide. Years ago when some FB people had an issue with me speaking against adding the good work of turning from sin to the gospel, one of them came here to do some battle.
I think about the sad fact that one was a Calvinist, the other a Pentecostal who believed in repenting from sin to be saved, and continuing to stay saved. Both outright stated I was likely unregenerate.
Billy Graham often used that phrase from the Word incorrectly. I remember he talked about counting the cost. The Bible seems clear it is about following Him which is sometimes a lifetime project, some like Demas go back into the world, but I hate it when they confuse these passages with the gospel, missing the impossibility of doing these works perfectly let alone adding them to a free girt.
Following is an excerpt from an article I read today:
Of course, Christians are sinners, so hypocrisy and judgment sometimes slip through in our words and actions as we war against our sins. But being misunderstood is part of the cost we’ve counted.
My comment: “Counting the cost” is not something that all Christians have done. If it were, then there would be a cost to us for receiving the free gift of eternal life, which would mean that eternal life was not really a free gift.
The article went on to discuss a “presumably unregenerate” person. Please note that to presume someone is unregenerate is to think that one can judge whether or not another person possesses eternal life, which we cannot do and is not our job.
If we are concerned that someone is not clear on the gospel, we should look for opportunities to preach the gospel to that person. Based on some of the misconceptions in the article I’m quoting, I would be concerned that the author may be fuzzy on the gospel. But, I would not presume she was unregenerate.
jason, that is great news!
And the story has a happy ending. I shared the sermon “My Faith Has Found a Resting Place” by Cucuzza.
The girl who had shared Furtick said: “I agree. I’m careful now about the ministers I listen to these days. Too many fake prosperity and motivational soeakers out there rather than true men of GOD”
And it ended on a graceful note.
Jason, thanks for the warning.
When someone’s testimony is their “changed life,” then it takes the focus away from Christ and puts it on their works.
“Evangelist” Sonny Okosun’s song “A Great Change” appeared in my recommendations. Sure enough, the lyrics start out: “all those bad things I used to do, I do them no more”. It’s loadship. Back to “Ope Mi” by T.W.O. My praise comes from grace alone.
Jason, Furtick wrote an acknowledgement for one of J.D.Greear’s books. They seem to be part of a mutual admiration society.
Kind of strange bedfellows if Furtick cares about the integrity of the gospel.
A Facebook user who uses a name that spoofs Adeola shared a video of Steven Furtick preaching a message of “sleeping on God’s promises”. “They are all ‘yes’ in Jesus”, even though they be zillions. And he says we are not to expend energy in claiming them. For someone who preaches this, he expends quite a bit of Kundalini in preaching it, firing up the magachurch crowd. Lordship salvation is definitely not sleeping on the promise of eternal life. I don’t know where he gets off on it. He probably claims promises that God never made. It is not sleeping on it when they tell you that you don’t have enough faith and that you don’t “truly” believe.
PhilR, I agree, why do we need ‘good works to clothe us’ when Christ’s righteousness does that already through faith in Him.
Hobbs, this sounds like classic LS fruit inspection. In the first place Israel as nation is being addressed in regards to the Kingdom in the Parables. It shows that these fruit inspectors really don’t understand the completeness of the gospel of salvation. (Eph 1:13,14; Col 2:9-13) They seem to be trying to say we need to complete our salvation that Christ has already completed for us.
No saved person would be found naked at the wedding. We are already clothed with the righteousness of Christ.. ( 2 Cor 5:21)
Hobbs, it is hard to know exactly what people mean when they make comments such as that, and I agree that people often misuse scripture to manipulate others into helping with their agenda.
A while back I heard the comment: ‘Our Life in [walking with] Christ will lead us to do good deeds and we will be unconscious of doing them [Matt
25:37 &44] but our deeds will cloth us at His marriage feast – Matt 22:1-14 – the friend without wedding clothes.’
You can see where this is going… if you don’t ‘walk with Christ’ you won’t produce good works and thus be naked at the marriage feast.
‘Walking with Christ’ could be code for ‘get with a church program, be accountable to the leaders, let them fruit inspect you to see how you are doing’.
Seems too darn easy to use the Bible to control people.
These oppressive ideas would make Adeola cringe. She has had two videos from the past that I find refreshing. She has also said that men should not take abuse from women, and that is fair and balanced. Renee Roland also has a video on the issue. It is sad to see what lengths people will go to, to twist scripture to support abuse.
Here was Piper’s comment on abuse:
“If (her husband) isn’t requiring her to sin, but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church.”
Another one in the same video was in a nutshell, Piper being asked if God foreordained rape, what Piper would do if his wife and daughter were being raped. He basically said he probably wouldn’t stop it.
Phil, I was thinking of your comment here:
When they say, “we are saved by faith alone, but a faith that saves is never alone” they are looking inward on themselves for assurance of their personal character instead of to Christ.
And sometimes I think they look on their outward works and words before men. But it made me think on the inward. And how if we’re honest, we know things other people don’t about how we’re just not so great. But I wonder if they fool themselves? I used to think I was good. And I do think I had myself kind of fooled.
That led me to ponder Calvinists or lordshippers who view God a certain way.
And I saw a post from Piper yesterday, and the disgusting way that they view God, how on earth would they exactly know what behavior was good or bad based on the vile things they view God as doing?
I’ll go grab that post.
Phil, correct. He has provided completely for our salvation. We need only believe it to receive it.
John, what you say, “once a person believes” is key to this. A person simply accepts by faith the finished saving work of Christ, the gospel of his salvation. In so believing, he receives his salvation.
Phil, you are right that people who use that type of phrase (“we are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone”) are pointing people away from believing that Christ did everything necessary to provide for our salvation.
Once a person believes the gospel, he has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited, no matter how he lives his life from that point on.
When they say, “we are saved by faith alone, but a faith that saves is never alone” they are looking inward on themselves for assurance of their personal character instead of to Christ. We are saved by Christ alone; our faith in Him is what connects us to that salvation. (Eph 1:13-14) Further, we and all our life’s sins died with him, were buried with him, and we are raised with him to a new eternal life with him. It’s a finished work in us, a done deal. Christ did it all, not our faith whether alone or not. So when they add “a faith that saves is never alone” they are denying the all sufficiency of the gospel of Christ’s finished work, saying we have to add something else to finish it. All I know is I have been raised with Christ. (Col 3:1; Eph 2:1-6; Gal 2:20; Rom 6:3-10).
So if the faith plus works bunch want to worry whether their faith is alone or not. All I know is I will always be with the Lord.
Johninnc, I agree those alms are never required. Yet somehow they think they’ll ‘see’ them in ‘real’ believers…
Helen, I think I accidentally deleted one of your comments yesterday.
Sorry about that.
Holly, the adage “the faith that saves is never alone” (and it’s many variations) is prolific. I’m sure we’ve addressed it somewhere here in the past.
Yes, alms are to be done in private, and they’re still not required to prove that one has received eternal life.
Keith, these preachers have no idea of what they are saying, or perhaps they do but they are also blinded by pride. They deviate people from Christ back onto themselves so they are looking at what they are doing for Christ, instead of just resting in the salvation that God has provided for us. They believe in human goodness, when the Bible clearly says that only God is good. Serving God should be joyous, but humans just destroy that with constant demands for ‘proof’.
Johninnc
Besides ‘We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone,</i? Didn't you do an article with just these pet phrases? They all seem to have a book that has these reformed catch phrases or buzz words. I know you've done many like this, but there are certainly some we all here over and over.
What I've always wondered is how they truly think they can judge someone to be a 'true convert' or a 'genuine convert' based on their outward works. Has it never dawned on them that these alms are to be done in private? So how will they know?
Keith, I finally got some bookshelves and putting up some of my books and in the cabinet beneath some of the ‘false’ reference material. I just shook my head when it came to putting stuff together. The John Piper ones, all gifts by well meaning friends. One was a combo coffee table type magazine that had art and Piper’s words. Makes me sad thinking on the woman who gave it to me. The last time I read something he wrote was about 10 years ago and it was very condemning. Anyways, he went on to make himself more popular by joining in contemplative prayer with Beth Moore and Lou Giglio. These wolves really look likeable and to some, respectable. People really just do not get the outward ‘wonderful works’ and gray hair and suits or seemingly humble personalities.
That excerpt you shared from Desiring God speaks volumes to what I think is their job as false prophets. One of their jobs (like Living Waters, or GTY) is to make people question whether they are ‘true converts’ based on their performance. In other words, making twice the sons of hell that they are, or making the little ones to believe in Him to stumble.
I think they should have a TV show. “Would the True Convert please stand up?”
Jason, yeah, all of those aphorisms lead to confusion. The focus on life change and transformation has even found its way into the names of many of the mega churches.
I could remember in my childhood never hearing that “faith that is never alone” nonsense. But I did hear “ask jeebus into your heart” and “give your life to christ”, most often in Junior Church. Even warnings that some people will deny him implied something else. Changed lives stories were inspiring back then, but they have morphed into something else. Miracles were inspiring in the first century and are deceptive in the 21st century. I briefly met with my childhood pastor at a Bible study, but when he misinterpreted John 3:14, I never went back. Even he seems fake, now.
Chas, the tentacles of Rome have thoroughly worked their way into evangelicalism, as you can hardly sit through a sermon in a Southern Baptist church without hearing the phrase, “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone’.
Yo Keith,
The statement by that staff writer:
Isn’t that a statement worthy of a Roman Catholic, even a Jesuit? It is exactly the kind of self-contradictory word game that the RCC has practiced for centuries. Like all such word games it is nonsense. Faith alone cannot be “faith that is not alone” since by their own definition “faith that is not alone” is faith PLUS something else. It’s amazing that these “reformed Protestants” don’t realize that with their false gospel they are hand-in-glove with the RCC they supposedly broke away from 500 years ago.
GAAAAAAHHHHHHH! These pious, blind, self-righteous RELIGIONISTS!!
Helen, you are right. When we believe the good news of our salvation in Christ, we are baptized by one Spirit into one body as saved believers in Christ (1 Cor 12:12-13). Water baptism is a symbol of this.
Signs and wonders are not required to be manifested in the saved person.
Helen, no, it is not scriptural. It is people trying to gain assurance of eternal life from something other than God’s promise of eternal life to anyone upon belief in Jesus as Savior.
What is this baptism of the Holy Spirit, as my neighbour who is a Christian said that she was immersed and she had an experience and she has power. I said to her that upon belief in Christ we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and I said that her experience wasn’t necessary, to which she replied “oh yes it is”. This was a while ago but I thought nothing of it. I know some teach of a second blessing, but is it scriptural?
Jason, yeah – they’ve created another false religion that co-opts the name of Christ.
The Calvinist-NAR birds of a feather fulfill Matthew 7:21-23 to the letter. It’s not Holy Ghost fire, it’s Antichrist fire (Revelation 13:13).
Keith, they don’t seem to understand that perfection, not just an improvement in behavior, is required to receive eternal life.
That passage does apply to people who have never believed in Christ alone as Savior.
Here’s another gem from Piper’s “Desiring God” website. The following is a good representation of the Calvinist’s understanding of Matthew 7:21-23, which states:
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?” And then will I declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.
The staff writer states:
“We are justified by faith alone, as the Reformers taught, but not by a faith that is alone. To truly receive the words of God is to intentionally, through a joyous faith in our crucified and resurrected Lord and active reliance upon his Spirit, obey them. Consider that if exposure to God’s word in the spoken gospel and the written Scriptures doesn’t soon change your behavior (even if slower than you might hope), if the transformation of your inner person does not extend to your outer life, you may well be wandering in the dream of those who never knew him.”
He ultimately concludes:
“Thus, while requiring us to think (true doctrine matters), saving faith is not merely about thinking; while requiring us to feel (we must love the Lord with all of our hearts), it does not terminate in our passions; while affording great displays of power and wonders, it calls for private fruits of a holy life to corroborate public showings. It produces men, women, and children who, in union with Jesus and given new hearts, happily do the will of God with a new, childlike aim: to please him (2 Corinthians 5:9)”.
My comment: The staff writer ends up embracing the very same mistake which Christ warned about in Matt. 7:21-23. The condemned listeners in that passage based assurance that they possessed eternal life in whole or in part on their good works. So it is with the consistent Calvinist, who must examine his works of perseverance for evidence of “saving faith” in order to have assurance that he possesses eternal life.
Jason, it seems the more one looks into Spurgeon, the worse it gets. Spurgeon was a leading torchbearer for the false gospel during his day.
I recently came across a page called “Charles Spurgeon Uncensored”. It exposed through quotes another aspect of Spurgeon I did not realize was there: Word of Faith, Divine Energy, Masonry, the All Seeing Eye, and pleading the blood. One quote even has Spurgeon thinking he can control God. False Prophet Owuor is more like him than I thought. It’s chilling.
To think that the theological oppression that my African friends experience can be traced back to this 19th century mightiest false prophet. “Whipping yourself until you bleed to show remorse” is the very essence of turn or burn. And now, Adeola reports that they are selling the blood, in good old medieval relic worshiping fashion. The struggle continues against lordship “salvation”.
Johninnc
I shudder for the teachers, but more so for those they mislead as I know you too feel the same.
Helen
It is always uncomfortable at the very least for people to hear their favorite teachers are preaching falsely. They often accuse of exactly it is that they are doing or saying. It’s the way the accuser of the brethren accuses both sides I think. As you noted, they call you judgmental, while they are judging you
Irony…
Helen, some of us plant, others water.
I think the most helpful thing to me is remembering the power of the gospel itself (Rom 1:16-17; 1 Cor 1:17-18).
We are basically the ones who preach the gospel and we can and should pray (1 Tim 2:1-6) and trust Him for the harvest. I have seen people I’ve known come to faith after a long time. Some I’ve had come to believe right on the phone, as simple as reading the Scriptures and very little explaining. I think then was when I understood the true power of the gospel meaning that we just have to preach it. He convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment so we should keep laboring in the harvest, and pray for others to come and water what you have planted.
Thank you. I just worry for them.
Helen, you could go with Romans 3:23.
Just because people dismiss what you say or don’t seem to understand it does not mean that you are giving the gospel incorrectly.
What can we say to people who say that they have no sin? I’ve asked him have you ever told a lie, had sex before marriage, lusted after a woman, hated someone in thought etc and he was just jokingly answering and not taking it seriously. Sometimes I even wonder if I am giving the gospel correctly because the people I tell just don’t seem to understand it and then I get discouraged sometimes. However when I’m speaking of Jesus I feel so full of joy and just praise him. I hope that others other stand.
Helen, right. I believe this is one of Satan’s favorite lies.
Hi Holly. We can easy get burdened when we take our eyes of Christ and back onto ourselves because others say we need to live a certain way. It is so very damaging and not growth in grace at all.
Even chatting with my friend’s daughter this morning, who mentioned ‘evil people’ wouldn’t go to heaven etc, and I explained that God saves whosoever trusts in Him. It is nothing to do with how we perform before or after, because non of us deserve eternal life. It is so ingrained in us that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. There is an actual documentary on Netflix called something like good people go to hell and saved people go to heaven.
Helen, much of the world of professor christendom thinks that good people have eternal life.
The Bible says only those with Christ’s imputed perfect righteousness, received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, have eternal life.
Is it common for unbelievers or the ‘religious’ to call us narrow minded and judgemental when we expose false teachings like new age. It made me quite sad because I’m not a hateful person at all, but it is our duty to tell others of the narrow way that is Jesus Christ. Our works will never merit eternal life because we need the righteousness of Jesus, and I think this is a harsh reality that some people react in anger and judge us instead for telling the truth.
I can see why it’s so easy for people to just tag onto what others are saying and they forget how much mercy and grace they have been shown by God, and it is our duty to extend this to others.
I’ve been guilty of judging and fruit inspecting others myself in the past due to meeting ‘believers’ who have said that I had to live a certain way, or that I was crucifying Christ every time because of my OCD or addiction, and I could lose my salvation. It’s pretty soul destroying and easy for people to just walk away from the faith, instead of resting in Christ’s work which is the only peace we have. Until I discovered that I was already saved and there was nothing I had to do to save myself before, during or after and there is the amazing grace and peace we have. I need to remind myself of this when those condemning voices of past people echo in my head.
Holly, that’s my concern as well – just a foundationally corrupt view of the gospel that is focused on our works instead of Gos’s provision for our salvation through Christ Jesus.
It just makes me shudder to see them say things like this. I am very afraid some of them will be the ones saying, Lord, Lord, but we did WONDERFUL WORKS in your name….
I am sure many of them think that is their transforma
Helen, agree. We have no way of knowing whether or not someone possesses eternal life.
The “transformed lives” concept has become mostly a euphemism for fruit inspection in many circles.
I know, it is saddening that people make comments like these without realising that they show no love or grace in condemning or judging others. 2 Peter 3:18 tells us to grow in grace.
Yes, these commenters do forget about their own sin. Looking down upon others is not loving or graceful. I hope that they see that.
Following is an excerpt from a comment I read today about a criminal (I believe the nature of the crime is irrelevant) who died in prison:
Because I believe that God’s grace and salvation can reach us all, I hope that he somehow experienced true repentance and transformation before he went to meet his Maker.
My comment: I don’t know what this commenter’s definition of “true repentance” is, but there is no requirement that one be “transformed” in order to receive the free gift of eternal life.
Jason, agree completely. LS is nonsense!
“Our Mumu Don Do” by Charly Boy is a popular protest song used during protests against Bokkko Haram. It contains the line: “preachers preaching nonsense”. Lordship is nonsense. There is no making sense of it.
This site is so correct in how it says that the modern terms today like ‘give your life to Christ’, ‘make Christ the Lord of all’ or ‘repent of your sin’ are just man made statements that sound holy, but they do not help people. They are not helping the cause of Christ, and they are certainly not found in scripture. If only the people hearing this garbage (as JackSmack77 would say) would check scripture for themselves, as it’s so lovely to be able to relax knowing that you can trust what the pastor says, although I only get that with watching certain YouTube sermons – certainly not from a church here in the UK.
Helen, the false turn from sins for eternal life message has been repeated so many times that people either believe it or just parrot it.
You are absolutely correct that it is not scriptural.
Do these ‘men of God’ have any idea of what they are doing to people in saying repent of sin? Do they even understand what that word means?
OLD TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES
Various definitions of repent in Old Testament Hebrew – 5150, 5162, 5164, 7725
5150 nichum
nichum: comfort, compassion
Original Word: נִחוּם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: niche
Phonetic Spelling: (nee-khoom’)
Definition: comfort, compassion
Found in: Hosea 11:8
5162 nacham
nacham: to be sorry, console oneself
Original Word: נָחַם
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: nacham
Phonetic Spelling: (naw-kham’)
Definition: to be sorry, console oneself
Found in: Genesis 6:6, Genesis 6:7, Exodus 13:17, Exodus 32:12, Exodus 32:14, Numbers 23:19, Deuteronomy 32:36, Judges 2:18, Judges 21:6, Judges 21:15, 1 Samuel 15:11, 1 Samuel 15:29, 1 Samuel 15:35, 2 Samuel 24:16, 1 Chronicles 21:15, Job 42:6, Psalm 90:13, Psalm 106:45, Psalm 110:4, Psalm 135:14, Jeremiah 4:28, Jeremiah 8:6, Jeremiah 15:6, Jeremiah 18:8, Jeremiah 18:10, Jeremiah 20:16, Jeremiah 26:13, Jeremiah 26:19, Jeremiah 31:19, Jeremiah 42:10, Ezekiel 24:14, Joel 2:13, Joel 2:14, Amos 7:3, Amos 7:6, Jonah 3:9, Jonah 3:10, Jonah 4:2, Zechariah 8:14
5164 nocham
nocham: sorrow, repentance
Original Word: נֹחַם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: nocham
Phonetic Spelling: (no’-kham)
Definition: sorrow, repentance
Found in: Hosea 13:14
7725 shub
shub: to turn back, return
Original Word: שׁוּב
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shub
Phonetic Spelling: (shoob)
Definition: to turn back, return
Found in:1 Kings 8:47, Ezekiel 14:6, Ezekiel 18:30
In the case of the word ‘turn’ in the old testament, again the hebrew word is 7725 shub.
NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES
Various definitions of repent in New Testament Greek – 278, 3338, 3340, 3341
278 ametamelétos
ametamelétos: not repented of
Original Word: ἀμεταμέλητος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: ametamelétos
Phonetic Spelling: (am-et-am-el’-ay-tos)
Definition: not repented of
Usage: not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind.
Found in: Romans 11:29, Corinthians 7:10
3338 metamelomai
metamelomai: to regret, repent
Original Word: μεταμέλομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metamelomai
Phonetic Spelling: (met-am-el’-lom-ahee)
Definition: to regret, repent
Usage: (lit: I change one care or interest for another), I change my mind (generally for the better), repent, regret.
Found in: Matthew 21:29, Matthew 21:32, Matthew 27:3, 2 Corinthians 7:8, Hebrews 7:21
3340 metanoeó
metanoeó: to change one’s mind or purpose
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh’-o)
Definition: to change one’s mind or purpose
Usage: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.
Found in: Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4:17,, Matthew 11:20, Matthew 11:21, Matthew 12:41, Mark 1:15, Mark 6:12, Luke 10:13, Luke 11:32, Luke 13:3, Luke 13:5, Luke 15:7, Luke 15:10, Luke 16:30, Luke 17:3, Luke 17:4, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, Acts 8:22, Acts 17:30, Acts 26:20, 2 Corinthians 12:21, Revelation 2:5, Revelation 2:16, Revelation 2:21, Revelation 2:22, Revelation 3:3, Revelation 3:19, Revelation 9:20, Revelation 9:21, Revelation 16:9, Revelation 16:11
3341 metanoia
metanoia: change of mind, repentance
Original Word: μετάνοια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: metanoia
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an’-oy-ah)
Definition: change of mind, repentance
Usage: repentance, a change of mind, change in the inner man.
Found in: Matthew 3:8, Matthew 3:11, Matthew 9:13, Mark 1:4, Mark 2:17, Luke 3:3, Luke 3:8, Luke 5:32, Luke 15:7, Luke 24:47, Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:24, Acts 19:4, Acts 20:21, Acts 26:20, Romans 2:4, 2 Corinthians 7:9, Corinthians 7:10, 2 Timothy 2:25, Hebrews 6:1, Hebrews 6:6, Hebrews 12:17, 2 Peter 3:9
Have they turned from all their sin? Do they even understand that ONLY Christ is the perfect one, and no human can reach this standard? I don’t think they understand what sin actually is? Hypocrites they are.
Following is an excerpt from a comment by Franklin Graham in an article published today:
“…hell awaits those who don’t repent of their sin and put their faith and trust in Christ.”
My comment: No, Franklin. Hell awaits those who don’t believe in Christ alone as Savior. You teach a false gospel of works that requires turning from sin to receive the free gift of eternal life. You are falsely trying to turn a gift into a trade, just like your false evangelist father, the late Billy Graham.
Holly, yeah – everyone wants to set their own curve.
Johninnc,
Those people who preach this, I always wonder if the people who know them would agree they are living a Holy life (let alone we know living Holy isn’t going to get us to heaven).
Jason, interesting points. Politics uses religion, and vice versa, as part of one another’s strange bedfellows.
Jeremy Stone goes by Deep State Exposed on Twitter and has been following me. Today, he disappointed me with a quote from Kim Clement, predicting the Trump election in 2007. It did not come to pass when he said it. I called Kim a thief, and another follower told me to take it up with God. But God gave me Matthew 24:24 for a reason.
I am reminded of when TB Joshua predicted Hillary in 2016, and Adeola laughed at him. TBJ did it again this year by predicting Omoyele Sowore in his own country. Then Buhari rigged. Those snatched ballots were not in his dreams. Whatever political train you are on, believe not everything that rides it. These prophecies nauseate me.
Helen, agree – they are frustrating grace.
Sadly, these people in their efforts to bring people to God actually turn people from God with their hard believism. I don’t think they even know what sin is, to be honest.
Repent from sin isn’t even in the New Testament anywhere. John the Baptist said repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand and Jesus said repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Repent in the correct definition to change our mind about Jesus and trust in His perfect work.
Thank God for expreacherman.com and all of the saints who give clear clarity on the gospel. It truly helps our Christian growth to rest in Christ. Thank you and God bless to you all.
Following is an excerpt from a comment I read today. It had 10 “up” votes and 2 “down” votes:
God is calling for repentance from sin, and for all to live a Holy life in Christ Jesus if you expect to enter heaven.
My comment: If God required you to repent from sin (turn from sin) to receive the gift of eternal life, it wouldn’t be a gift – it would be a trade. This is the false gospel of Lordship “salvation.”
I agree, great comment Keith!
Keith, very good comment.
I read this one today from John Piper’s “Desiring God: website. Piper is responding to a subscriber’s question about “willful sinning” (Heb. 10:26) threatening the salvation of the sinner:
“Christians struggle with sin because we, in this life, are still sinners. The presence of sin in us will not be eradicated until that glorious day when we see Jesus face to face. What a day that will be! But until then, we fight sin by faith, and we can experience assurance inside the fight. But we also believe there are forms of “willful sin” that evidence a heart that has not been saved. Which leads to today’s question from Josh”.
Piper goes on to state:
“In other words, it’s not a single act; it’s not a few acts; it’s not periodic acts. It’s rather a settled, persistent continuation in sin. What destroys the soul, what puts it beyond forgiveness in verse 26 [chapter 10 of Hebrews] is not sin per se, but an eager, deliberate, willing, persistent, settled pattern of sin”.
My comment: Calvinists often label those who subscribe to a grace view of the gospel as “antinomian”, or “against the law”.
However, the true antinomian is the Calvinist who, although he bases at least some of his assurance that he is one of the elect (or possesses eternal life) on conforming his behavior to God’s law, believes that perfect adherence to the law is not required to enter heaven. Rather, one can still sin, albeit on a limited basis, and still expect to enter heaven.
Brannon Howse has a video in which he exposed general overseer John MacArthur as a useful deep state tool, who condemns revolutions against tyrannical governments, even when the train of abuses has reached the breaking point. Calvinist fake pastors are convincing the sheeple to give up their guns. Next time a see a Nigerian with the orange beret as his profile picture quote MacArthur, I am in the mood to drop the knowledge on him. Howse stands against abusive anything: husbands, pastors, or rulers. I don’t endorse Howse, but I can’t help myself to avoid watching the drama.
Keith, yeah, it’s a biz.
Yes, “scam” is a good word for it because salvation by works builds big churches and sells books. The unregenerate masses flock to it because they like being told that Christ’s work alone is not enough, that you must do something to know you are going to heaven. Those who promote iit commit the same sin as Balaam, who greedily coveted the riches that Balak offered to curse Israel:
Jude 1:11:
“”Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah”.
Jason, she’s right – salvation by works is a scam.
One of Renee Roland’s friends is Nyanda Bundu. Her videos are encouraging. In her latest video, she called salvation by works a scam.
Following is from a story about a “weeping painting” at a Greek Orthodox church in the Chicago area:
“This is a calling on all of us to change our lives,” he said. “We need to turn to her in prayer and humility. And cleanse our hearts and souls of inequities so we may find salvation.
My comment: There is no point in praying to Mary. And, cleansing our hearts and souls of “inequities,” much less “iniquities” is not how one receives eternal life. Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
gmain – Welcome.
Wow, what you said about the MacArthur study Bible just hit home. I went to several Bible studies at a church I used to attend. I had stopped going to the services because of the pastor starting to get into some things like Rick Warren and Brennan Manning. But one of the women Bible teachers was really good. Until she started quoting from the MacArthur Bible. In the beginning she didn’t say it was him, but I remember a couple things sounding confusing and asking her and she couldn’t explain it from Scripture.
She was also going to a teacher called John Politan (in Scottsdale) who was diligent to preach TULIP as the means to spirtual maturity (as I see it). Anyways, she used to be some a good Bible teacher, I love her and care about her. But her doctrine started to change, and it certainly didn’t distill like dew. And that was the end of that Bible study…
gmains1000, thanks for commenting.
As you’ve observed, focusing on our performance can only lead to doubt.
There are so many people like MacArthur out there whose teaching tends to attempt to undermine our faith by changing our focus.
I’ve been reading the posts here for a number of years but never responded to anything before. I have picked up some useful ‘gems’ here to defend grace. I’ve been a believer for 57 years. I got saved around age 11. About 1997 I bought a MacArthur Study Bible. I began to listen to him sometimes on the local radio as well as a number of other guys. At that time I knew he preached the Bible, not realizing his Lordship gospel. But listening and reading his notes began to make me doubt. It didn’t last too long because I knew there was something amiss. His Lordship false teaching was making me look at my performance rather than looking to Christ and His finished work by faith. Thanks for standing faithfully for the gospel.
Holly, you make a really good point.
So many of these false teachers think that doing something in addition to simply believing the gospel is necessary for eternal life. As such, they do not seem to trust in the power of the gospel message.
Back maybe around 2005-06, somewhere in there could have been later, I remember seeing a video by Paul Washer, just watched a little, because he made me ill. I didn’t know an exact reason why except he was condemning. I just didn’t want to hear him. When I listened to more when someone challenged me as to why I wouldn’t listen to him, I bought some transcripts from sermonaudio and I also made some of my own (much easier to buy the written transcripts because it’s painful listening).
I was just kind of talking to the Lord and asking why he didn’t preach the gospel itself, and it came to me also (should be obvious) that he didn’t believe the power of the gospel, but He trusted in his own words. I guess they are all pretty much the same in their regard. They love to be heard for their many words.
Phil, to my knowledge, none of the “biggies” has ever come on here to set us straight. But, many of their acolytes have.
I have thought about asking this here for some time. Has John MacArthur or any other well known loadshipper ever dropped by here at Exp to “set us straight” with their LS “truths”?
Holly, the likely reason that MacArthur wouldn’t give people the gospel is that he teaches that believing it isn’t enough.
John MacArthur did a repeating series on saved or self-deceived (he re-vomits out the same ‘sermon’ over and over).
Trouble is, if someone was a tare, he doesn’t give them the truth. If someone tells him they are unsure if they are a Christian, does he preach the gospel to them?
No! This is what he tells them, ” my immediate response is, “The reason you may feel you’re not a Christian is because you’re not a Christian.”’
Here is what MacArthur says it takes: (only part of his long list of lies from the enemy).
Hobbs, I know what you mean. And, ministries like Hocus Focus (on the Family) only spawn and perpetuate the lies.
So glad there are a few people around defending grace or I’d still be committing hara-kiri every five minutes reading these kinds of comments.
Here is another in the same thread:
Easy way to think about it. Is there anything you would not give up to spend eternity with your Creator? If you can think or rationalize one then you are on the wrong road.
My comment: This is exactly the way that Satan wants you to think about it. If you think you have to give up some sin, or another, in order to receive the free gift of eternal life, you simply don’t understand the gospel. The gospel is not about us giving up anything. Eternal life is a FREE GIFT, without cost or obligation to the recipient.
Following is an excerpt from a comment I read today:
If you think you are a Christian, you’re probably self-deceived. Salvation includes repenting of and repudiating one’s own sin…
My comment: Translation (sarcasm intended): If you simply believe the record that God gave of His Son, but you haven’t given up all of your sin, that means that you are probably self-deceived as to whether or not you have eternal life. Even though the Bible says that you can know you have eternal life, based solely on having believed in Christ alone as Savior, I say you can’t.
Your salvation includes repenting of and repudiating your own sin. My salvation includes me repenting of and repudiating certain of my own sin, although since I still sin, I haven’t repented of or repudiated all of my own sin. But, God will still let me into His kingdom, because He knows how hard I have tried to avoid sin. Jesus is my Lord and Helper!
Jason, yeah, your friend is in serious error.
Believing that Jesus is God in the flesh is not “polytheism.” And, as you said, Jesus is our kinsman redeemer.
A friend of mine from last year fled from the Evangelical Free Church in Germany over lordship. Later, I find out that he dogmatically denies the Trinity.
About the Incarnation, he makes this comment: “I have never confirmed a polytheistic ‘3 person God’ and if you want me to, I can prove it to you. Also, I am confirming the incarnation because I actually believe that the Word became flesh. Denying it logocally means saying the Word stayed Word as Spirit and never came in flesh, but only ‘inside’ flesh…”
These comments make me as sad as lordship itself. I am not sure what gospel they believed. Earlier, he denied that Mary contributed any “flesh” to Jesus. That leaves Jesus totally unrelated to us and unable to represent us. Later in the comment, he he says that “God actually killed his Word by nailing it to the cross”. That sounds really bizarre.
Jason, you bring up an interesting point. That kind of statement can have all sorts of implications. I recently read an opinion piece at an SBC site that said that trying to appeal to a lost person’s desire to avoid hell is inappropriate. The writer didn’t even seem to know what the gospel is.
The message that lost people need to hear is the gospel message, faithfully presented. Any other message, or “means,” is simply off-target.
That is the primary reason why I painstakingly attempt to keep this site focused on gospel issues, and to discourage ancillary discussions about things that distract from advancing the gospel.
From OneWayApologetics (YouTube):
“If you use carnal means to attract men, you are going to attract carnal men”
There is something woefully wrong about that statement. All men are carnal before salvation. If you don’t attract carnal men, you don’t attract any men at all. Jesus died for carnal people.
I notice that they virtue signal about dress. Allowing casual dress is condemned as carnal.
Jason, very good point.
People just cannot seem to keep from perverting the gospel.
From Hope Restoration Ministries:
“Walking with God is a lifestyle. God becomes the most important thing in your life, There is a purpose and destination – eternal life. The journey is without its own trials and tribulations, yet there is comfort in JOHN 16 : 33 and with this comfort there is great Joy and peace when you Know God id on your side with all which you face. Minister Nyiko Gudlhuza shared the word at our Midrand campus”
The purpose of “walking with God”, discipleship, or whatever they call it, is not eternal life. Believers already have it, otherwise the comfort of the verse they cited does not exist. This doctrinal mush is very Warrenesque.
When it comes to the clear preaching of the gospel, there are no first world countries. The lights went out worldwide because of gospel corruption. Church is theater.
Jason, that does seem Pentecostal and Keswick all in one.
I found the page of Berea Baptist Church in Nigeria, and they had this to say:
So one day I was teaching the children’s class on Sunday and I told them they have the power of God in them and they can heal the sick and make the blind see if they want to. One of them then asked me: aunty are you talking about real life?? The truth is this is what so many children think. They have heard so many stories in the Bible and the truth is all it is to them is STORIES. One will say that “oh they are children, they can’t understand yet”. Please let’s stop that. Once a child is able to speak and understand right from wrong, there is nothing else that child can’t understand. There is no baby Version of the Holy Spirit. Children need to break away from fantasy to reality. I see children coming into a deeper understanding of the word. I see children expressing the gifts their father has bestowed upon them. I see children orchestrating great moves of the spirit.
I know from common sense and experience that this is rubbish. I can’t do miracles. They are affiliated with the Nigerian Baptist Convention, which occupies the same part of the alphabet soup as the National Baptist Convention. They are not Bereans. I live in reality, they live in fantasy. They are indistinguishable from the Pentecostals. The NAR has absorbed all. Tripe about dying to self follows.
For the teenagers, it’s a stage in their lives where self consciousness and society is the order of the day. I see teenagers dying to self and laying aside every distraction to chase after God and all He is.
For the youths, it’s all about priorities and control. I see youths just making God their priority and letting go of everything they hold on to. I see youths free falling and trusting God wholly with their lives. Making God their only option. No plan B’s.
In general I see God’s children coming in to a deeper understanding of God’s Love for them.
It smells like Keswick. They go deeper than the Bible. Romans 10:7 need not apply. They quote from the New Lordship Translation:
“Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God’s love and keep you strong.”
Ephesians 3:17 NLT
I don’t know that verse. The Bible says nothing about “roots growing down”. Always deeper. There is also a Deeper Life Bible Church in that country. It featured on a photograph of a dilapidated high rise building that housed six other churches. It went viral. Water, water everywhere and not a drop to drink.
Jason – I think a lot of Spanish people have been in Roman Catholicism so it’s a natural segue over to load-ship sadly.
John WI – I’ve been meaning to do an article on some of Spurgeon’s quotes, I cannot believe how much kickback you will get from those who profess grace. Please let him know that not only did Spurgeon say that Calvinism is the gospel, but taught turning from sin as part of receiving the free gift of eternal life. If you need some quotes and sources, let me know.
JohnWI, it might be worth informing your friend that Spurgeon often undermined the gospel with his Calvinist/LS bent. I have found a lot of people who were oblivious to Spurgeon’s error, and others who have made excuses for it based on very superficial research.
My missionary friend, who use to be a teacher at New Tribes Bible Institute, and as said he is free grace, is posting quotes of Spurgeon on Facebook. We help support is ministry, so I have been debating whether or not I should call him and ask him why.
Jason, that is really sad. My Spanish isn’t very good. All I can think of is: “Spurgeon? No way Jose.”
I had the misfortune of finding promotion of Spurgeon and Washer, in Spanish, on the page of a friend who has some of my Kenyan friends in common. I don’t know what to say.
Jason, Rhema is extrabiblical revelation, which is why they don’t have respect for the written Word. As you can see from the long exchange in Bible Bereans on FB, he ignored Scripture and mostly came back with his own opinions. He was removed for lordship teaching.
Be happy he blocked you, he was a false teacher, just as you said. I saw enough of him over the several exchanges in the group and on your page to see he was puffed up and thought of himself beyond Scripture.
Jason, I have no idea what this guy means. The gospel is universal, and defending it is not looking down on anyone.
This comment was said by a friend who showed his sharp teeth.
“A good Christian is one who appreciates both logos and rhema. That’s what Iam. Every experience must be in agreement with what is written. So where is my fakeness my brother? Be careful with what you say about others. You have looked down upon Africans foe far too long. And now God is raising us. You will be surprised what God will do through me in your stagnant life. Be careful with your abuses. Iam not fake. I know something”
Then he blocked me. Rhema refers to NAR teachings. He promoted experiences as a sign of genuineness. He and I were once on the same page, but he now he puts himself on the pedestal and is playing shell games with the gospel in the many comments that transpired. I don’t know what he means by looking down on people. I have been consistent with maintaining the gospel, as best as I could, and I desire that people know that they are sons, not slaves. Several of my other friends commented to me to say that his theology was inverted.
One of his points: “at calvary Jesus says it is finished(all is paid for) no more need for brokers who can connect you to God,no more need for whipping yourself until you bleed to show remorse,no more need to buy indulgences,no more need for gospel pimps”. He concluded, “yes…he paid for everything”.
Jason, you are right – using any behavior, including church attendance, as a litmus test for whether or not someone has eternal life is completely inappropriate.
This picture comment was made on Trevor Noah’s page and attributed to Occupy Democrats.
“If you believe that someone is:
* a billionaire without seeing their taxes
* a genius if they hid their college grades
* a great business man if they bankrupted casinos
* an irresistible ladies man if they have to pay for sex
* a philanthropist if their charity was shut down
* a patriot if they dodged the draft
* a Christian if they don’t go to church
* an innocent man if they refuse to testify
You’re not just gullible, you’re a Trump supporter!”
For the sake of the Gospel, I concede all points but one: if you believe that someone is a Christian that does not go to church, it does not make you gullible but a Berean.
Jason, yes – “should” is consistent with grace.
On a forum where people are talking about a revolution similar to the Yellow Vests, someone made this comment: “And d bible make us to understand that we should mend our ways”. It is interesting that he used the word “should”. That is consistent with grace.
Holly, yeah, there were so many similar bad comments.
Johninnc, they often mix and match the Sheep and Goat judgment with James 2. I’m so tired of hearing partial Bible verses used and abused.
One from today:
Again, the demons believe in Jesus. Belief isn’t good enough. The proper response is required, which is works of charity, especially charity to the very least of the brethren of Christ.
My comment: Belief in Jesus as Savior IS enough to receive the free gift of eternal life. If works of charity were required, eternal life would not be a free gift. Believers SHOULD be loving and charitable, but works should never be used as a “litmus test” to prove eternal life.
Africa isn’t the only place with false Messiahs. It is all over including China and Europe and of course America. We have plenty of false Christs and false prophets. We can just expose their evil deeds to the light with His Word.
Jason, that is really twisted.
I have recently stumbled upon some horrifying footage of a man being apparently paid to pose as Jesus at a Pentecostal church in Kenya. The man looks exactly like the Michelangelo painting of Jesus. This is not a passion play. They are actually worshipping the man as Jesus. I thought Owuor was the worst. This is sick.
Jason, interesting quote. You are right that retaining eternal life isn’t dependent on any faithfulness on our part.
This is a comment that a friend made concerning Leah Sharibu, a Bokkko Haram hostage: “How about her blood being on your neck for supporting Buhari and APC? I know human lives don’t matter to you jare, as long as God don sort you out. Anyway, if bokoharram arrest me and tell me to renounce Jesus I will do it, does it mean I’ve actually renounced him? Na my own I talk, my faith no reach that level”
That level of honesty is rare. He is disgusted by hypocrisy in the churches and seems to understand correctly that eternal life is not dependent on his own faithfulness.
Jason, it could give that implication.
And the line about healing implies that I need to be at a deliverance service next Sunday. No thanks.
Jason, the focus on change would imply people need to look to life change for evidence of eternal life.
One is free from the penalty of sin and has eternal life the moment he believes in Jesus as Savior, even though he will still sin in this life.
Why do I find tweets like this so annoying?
“Religion doesn’t save
Religion doesn’t change you
Religion doesn’t heal you
Religion doesn’t set you free
Jesus does. In Him alone our hope is found”
Change and healing are the very essence of religion. Count me out. And yet, if I know I am saved and set free, and I rest in that knowledge, my life changes from sadness to joy, and my bitterness is healed.
Hobbs, agree. There is so much darkness out there!
They’re pointing people away from The Saviour with these comments. Christ has already paid the price so we don’t have to go to hell. We trust in Him alone for our salvation, not ourselves.
And another from “Renew Your Mind,” by Billy Davis, Ph.D.:
The preponderance of evidence in the Scriptures clearly teach and show that a child of God can so sin as to be lost.
I am convinced that the evil one will do anything within his power to see us in hell. And if making people believe that they can “coast in to heaven” without being a good and faithful servant, then he has succeeded! Let us make a concerted effort to enter in by the strait gate! To God be the glory!
My comment: No. This is a heretical gospel of salvation by works.
And this “gem” from “Redemption Gateway” in Mesa, Arizona:
So what should we look to for salvation assurance?
If we don’t put too much weight on any past decision, or a present understanding or even a future hope, how do we come to assurance of salvation?
You use all of the above.
Do you remember your life without Jesus and do you remember coming to him in repentance and faith at some point?
Do you love Jesus right now and are you growing in love for him in your heart, mind, and soul? And is this love spilling over in your love for others?
Do you long to be with Jesus? Do you long to be with him and experience an unhindered, face-to-face relationship with your savior?
Assurance of salvation is a marathon not a sprint. Don’t try to cut the race short with quick answers. Let the reality of salvation play itself out in time. The author of Hebrews has a good word for us. “Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith.” Hebrews 12:1-2
My comment: If the above is true, then a new believer could not possibly have assurance of eternal life. That would make John 5:24 not true, and therefore mean the Bible was not really the word of God. The above recipe for assurance is no assurance at all. It requires fruit inspection.
John 6:47, I really doubt that he sees the contradiction.
I found another one today from a guy named Jack Wellman, who is identified with the Brethren ministries:
If you have never had a time in your life where you have repented of your sins, which means you have turned away from them and forsaken them, and then put your trust in Christ, God sees you as still be defiled and the judgment that awaits you is sure and certain (Rev 20:12-15).
In another article, Wellman said this:
People are not willing to deal with their sins and so they simply head down the easy path of destruction. The broad gate is broad because so many are going that way. It’s like an 8-lane expressway, but it’s going in the wrong direction. They, like I, needed to turn and go the other way (repent) and head down the narrow path, difficult as it is. Even though the narrow gate is difficult to take, at least there is “a” way. It’s better than no way at all. We should be thankful that God made a way through Christ. He had no reason for this, other than His love (Rom 5:6-10).
My comment: People are quite willing to try to “deal with their sins.” Wellman is promoting “dealing with their sins” by trying to make a deal with God, rather than to accept that Christ has dealt with their sins.
johninnc – I wonder if the person who wrote the “Christian Courier” thought about the contradiction of saying that a gift can be conditional. The Bible over and over calls salvation a FREE GIFT. A gift, by definition, is free, and yet God, knowing that man would have a hard time accepting what He says about salvation, put the word FREE with the word gift in the Bible.
Chas, yeah – it’s one of the most miserable sites I’ve ever encountered.
Johninnc, that is some major cognitive dissonance going on with that
Christian Courier. One more “Christian” publication I don’t hafta read.
From “The Christian Courier”:
It is, however, a mistake of unfathomable magnitude that so many have adopted the view that this gift does not require a willing recipient who happily acknowledges that the gift may be undergirded by conditions. …
A gift can be conditional! …
Two important things must be emphasized at this point.
Eternal life or “eternal salvation” is conditioned upon one’s obedience to the Lord (Jn. 3:36, ASV, ESV; Heb. 5:8-9).
Fidelity must be maintained if one ultimately is to enter heaven (Heb. 3:12-19; 6:4-8; 10:26-31).
My comment: Stay away from this rubbish!
Jason, people often misuse scripture to undermine the gospel. They may throw the “what about”s” at you, or tell you that you need “the whole counsel of God,” or some other euphemism for trying to add works to the gospel. They may even call themselves “Bereans,” but their mindset is to read their preexisting belief in eternal life by works into scripture.
A conversation ended with me saying: “I don’t need the word of Jesus. I need the gospel. You are irrelevant”.
It is a shocking thing for me to say. He was going on and on with unnecessary works and knowledge and refused to accept me as a believer based on faith alone. He told me I need the word. When people tell me I need anything, I am like, nonsense. Whatever yada yada they have, I don’t need it. John 5:39 comes to mind. Of course they mean works. Reading the whole Bible is a work.
He was also selling me baptism and telling me that Jesus is the Father. His country and political affiliation are irrelevant.
JohnWI, I can’t fathom why anyone who has a heart for the gospel and who cares about the spiritual well-being of others would either favorably quote or recommend Spurgeon.
Spurgeon was the standard-bearer of Calvinism/LS for his generation. He is still a darling of that set today, but also seems to get a pass from some who should know better.
Favorably quoting Spurgeon (and so many similar others) undermines the gospel message.
Jason, I’ve heard the term, although if there is a book I haven’t read it. If they want to be disciples, they might do better to listen to Jesus (John 8:31-32).
I assume they speak of a couple of the NT passages about being crucified, likely Gal 5:24 (crucified the flesh with it’s passions and desires) but it speaks of walking in the Spirit vs. the lusts of the flesh. They can’t do that by finishing in the flesh that which God began in the Spirit.
I like this one about being crucified from Gal 2:19-21
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Exactly.
That “reverend” is far out.
Jason, I’m not familiar with this guy or his book.
I think I’ll give it a pass.
Our postion as believers is that we were crucified with Christ and we are risen with Christ. As such, we are dead to sin (Romans 6:7)and alive unto God through Christ (Romans 6:11).
The non-biblical term “crucified life” seems to confuse the two.
Here is a reply to a Leftist fake pastor: “Anyone following @RevDrBarber able to recommend a contemporary, positive, progressive book on the HOLINESS of GOD, or THE CRUCIFIED LIFE? Thank you”
And I am like: don’t need that. I live the liberated life. “Crucified life” is just as nonexistent in scripture as “repent of sin”. Paul preaches about our crucified position. “Crucified life” implies slavery. Those who preach it don’t live it.
Jason, that sounds like a real eye roller.
Lordship hip hop: My Temple by Bryann Trejo
I found this song on someone’s Facebook page immediately after accepting a friend request. I only saw politics before accepting.
This song is full of virtue signaling about diet. The singer boasts about working hard and claims to be free from sin. Tupac is a step up.
Holly, that’s a really good question.
John, on the heart transplant, why is it that they believe they have had one? They can’t know until they’ve ‘persevered until the end’…
Yes, that’s what it is, they frequently use the passage from Ezekiel to ‘prove’ pre-regeneration (as I like to call it).
Jason – too bad on the sign, hopefully people ignore it until they hear the truth.
Jason, I have seen unequivocal statements that anyone who supports this or that political party can not be a Christian. It is just one more false litmus test of eternal life.
The sign you saw was both wrong and inappropriate.
The “conservative” comment makes me think of Adeola again. She does not appear to be a Trump supporter, but the Left makes her look conservative. Bokkko Haram and the NAR (fake pastors) bother her deeply. There are so many nuances of political opinion, and the left vs right grid does not account for everything. How “conservative” do they require you to be? Like LS itself, it’s void for vagueness.
Today, I was watching the parade and saw this comment: “Repent of all your sin and ask God into your hearts. Jesus is coming soon. Please choose God”. We know how wrong that is. I also thought it was inappropriate street preaching.
One from today:
You can deny the evidence but it’s foolish to. The religious elite (Pharisees and Saducees) saw Christ in their midst and they denied Him. It takes a heart change to believe. A supernatural miracle and God is in the transplant business. Happy 4th my friend!
My comment: This makes it sound like regeneration precedes belief. If one needs a new heart to believe, which God provides before belief, then God is responsible for providing or withholding one’s belief in Christ.
This is classic Calvinist error. God desires that all men be saved, and eternal life, not faith, is the gift of God (Romans 6:23).
Thanks Holly!
I hope you and your family have a great 4th.
Good comments Johninnc – I wonder if that person thought the incestuous adulterer of 1 Cor 5, or the drunkards at the Lord supper of 1 Cor 11 were conservative? Or for that matter what about Solomon and his wives and false gods?
People seem to always be determining how someone is saved either by thought process or deed vs. belief or rejection of the gospel.
So many people definitely believe water baptism is salvific. So then why didn’t Paul do it each and every time? Why did he thank God he didn’t?
People just won’t hear the Word nor share the whole counsel of it (presumably they don’t know it). Thanks for some more good answers. Have a nice celebration on the 4th.
Another excerpt from today:
We also have to obey that gospel of death, burial and resurrection by obeying Acts 2:38. We must be born again of the water and the spirit.
My comment: This person appears to think that one must be water baptized to be born of the Spirit. One has eternal life, that can never be lost or forfeited, the moment he believes in Christ as Savior. To add the requirement of water baptism to receive eternal life constitutes a false gospel of works.
Excerpt from a comment I read today:
…all true Christians are conservative…
My comment: This is a direct assault on the gospel. It literally means that there is a political litmus test that can prove that someone doesn’t have eternal life. This would mean that we can judge all non-conservatives as lacking eternal life, and that someone would have to assess their political beliefs for assurance of eternal life.
This is completely non-biblical.
Please note that I don’t want to start a political debate and that I will not entertain or post any political comments.
Sometimes they think if they go in the opposite direction they’ll get it right. They look at the prosperity teachers preaching money coming to you, so they preach the opposite. Either way, it’s still error. Loving money we know is not good, nor depending on it. But your friend doesn’t have it right either sadly (as you know).
Jason, this is a good request to ignore.
It is true that Jesus would not change a Christian away from Him, but like you said, it is not necessarily true that everything around or about a Christian will change.
This person has implied that one’s attitude toward money is a litmus test for assurance of eternal life.
My guess is that he feels pretty good about his level of generosity.
A post from a friend request that I have ignored:
“LOVE OF MONEY IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF ALL EVIL.
Many have denied and betrayed Jesus Christ because of money.
You changed religion because of money.
You are worshiping other gods because of money.
If truly Jesus Christ is in you He will change everything around you but not money to change you from Him”
If Jesus is in me, that does not guarantee that everything about me or around me changes. It is possible for a believer to be pierced with many griefs because of money. To some extent, that was me.
Some of them also seem to think that no one will be able to buy or sell unless they take the mark – or, alternatively, have a big stockpile of physical gold.
Jason,
I know what you mean about misquoted verses, or taken out of context. Or even some of the OT passages that some might be spoken specifically to Israel or even enemies of Israel. Some I give the benefit of the doubt to, as maybe they’re learning the Scriptures. 1 Thess 4:17-16 is always comforting to me, even if they quote it, because it’s still His Word. And it’s meant for us ❤
Johninnc, true, and their books and blogs. Of course you know that even secular people are selling condos in underground missile silos. Pretty interesting the world knows, and many who profess Christ know He’s coming again, but they deny the truth.
Holly, I think that denying the pre-tribulation rapture is a key component of these peoples’ commercial enterprises. They have to sell people supplies to equip them for the tribulation. Otherwise, no sales.
And, their concern about Christians taking the mark is unfounded.
Johninnc
I’m noticing a couple interesting trends with the preppers (on both sides).
The ‘Christian’ ones think they’ll be here for the Tribulation, and of course dependent upon their eschatalogical position can think we’re here the whole time or some of the time. Basically even those who claim to believe in eternal security say those of us who are pre-Trib aren’t ‘prepared’, therefore we’ll somehow the mark.
Kurschner, Rosebaum, Van Kampen, all have a similar attitude, and that is we are just wanting to ‘escape’ (presumably they’re all gung ho to be eaten by beasts, killed by the sword, famine, martyrdom etc.), and they seem to feel that somehow they are better qualified because they’ve read Rosenbaum or Van Kampen’s book 🙂
For all these people it’s never enough that we believe He is the Son of God and that He died on the cross for our sins. This is what they both have in common. They are capable of committing fully and giving Him control. They of course have renounced all their sins (except evidently pride and harshness and recognizing sin in their lives).
Jason, I know what you mean. In the “doomsday prepper” site that I quoted from a couple of days ago, the guy used the first half of Romans 6:23, without even pointing out that there was a second half.
The situation you cited in Africa sounds like abuse.
The Gospel According to Bible Quotes
Facebook and Twitter are full of Bible verses that take up entire short posts, with no commentary. Their favorite verses give a strong clue to their gospel. Most quotes are pointless. Anyone can go to a Bible site and find the verse without their help, so they are really saying nothing. It is just part of the picture parading. The verse is usually out of context just by being there. The accumulative effect of the verse quotes is to preach the Letter that Kills. If their favorite verses are from the Sermon on the Mount or the Parable of the Vine and the Branches, I can tell that they are LS. If I dig deeper, I inevitably find that they are affiliated with false teachers. At some point, they will explicitly deny grace.
The only thing from Paul that they quote is to give your body as a living sacrifice. They turn even Paul into Law.
If they quote Romans 10:10, they are Romans Road and probably love Franklin Graham.
If they quote Acts 2:38 and the end of Mark, they are probably Church of Christ.
Even if they quote John 3:16, they may quote discipleship verses elsewhere.
If they really are about grace, they inevitably have interesting things to say. They do not treat their wall as a place to go scripture bombing. One had something sad to say about African Christians: their enslavement is worse than I imagined. They are overworked by the church misleaders and not allowed to take time off for family. Sexual sin includes not abstaining from one’s spouse when the man of god orders fasting. They have to pay “firstfruits” before tithe. I never knew that doctrine. After tithe, they have to sow seed, more money. They are slaves, not sons.
If they quote 1 Thessalonians 4:17-18, it is not comforting at all. The unseen words are always, hurry up and believe a false gospel.
I found the following on a “doomsday prepper” site today:
But it is not enough just for you to intellectually know that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died on the cross for our sins.
The Scriptures tell us that we must individually commit our lives to Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. When we give our lives to Jesus, He forgives our sins and He gives us eternal life…
Jesus asks that you give Him control of your life. That means renouncing all of the sin in your life and making Him your Savior and Lord. Just to know intellectually that Jesus died on the cross and that He rose from the dead is not enough to become a Christian…
Are you ready to make a commitment to Jesus Christ?
“Lord Jesus, I want to become a Christian. I know that I am a sinner, and I thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I believe that you are the Son of God and that you rose from the dead. I repent of my sins and I open the door of my life and ask You to be my Savior and Lord. I commit my life to You. Thank You for forgiving all of my sins and giving me eternal life. Take control of my life and make me the kind of person that You want me to be. I will live my life for You. Amen.”
My comment: Neither committing one’s life to Jesus, nor renouncing all sin, nor giving one’s life to Jesus are requirements for receiving the free gift of eternal life.
This is very similar to the Southern Baptist Convention’s (SBC’s) false gospel formula, but packaged with a “hurry up and believe a false gospel before it’s too late” kind of appeal.
Jason, there is so much confusion and what we once thought would not ever be believed, people would rather believe (a lie). Shaking my head, but I do that every day I go by posts on FB, and try to leave them with some Scriptures or this site, or my site, and just pray that someone might be saved from out of the fire.
Jason, that is really out there!
A crazy female pastor in Nigeria says that Titus fish and Vitamin C will cause you to miss heaven. The social networks are laughing. The deepest lie from the deep blue sea is Lordship Salvation, and this is one of its many applications.
Good Jason, I’m glad you did!
As we see daily, people are confused and carried about by every wind of doctrine. And they twist Scriptures to their own destruction (and those who are hearing them).
Because of the confusion that I saw, I have ignored a friend request.
Jason, I don’t even know what to say with all that nonsense they were spouting. I have been told before by mini-accusers of the brethren that I don’t have the Spirit.
I hope you don’t spend much time in all that confusion, my head would be spinning.
I agree John on the confusing teaching of that person.
I think people who may (or may not) be sound sometimes tend to go beyond what it says in His Word by their own thoughts. I prefer just to have someone lay Scripture out without any confusing statements of their own. We know of course, He is not the author of confusion.
Jason, you are right that we must be careful to avoid suggesting that believing in Jesus as Savior involves taking on any obligation. If grace is free, it is without cost or obligation.
Believers are sons of God.
And, the Copeland reference, in and of itself, is troublesome.
This one is extremely subtle. In what follows, it sounds mostly right, but there are some things that make me extremely uncomfortable.
JESUS BRETHREN MINISTRIES – MAY 2019 MEDITATIONS
Grace and Peace to you.
Back to our thoughts and meditations on the subject: “Being Led by the Spirit Through Walking in The Spirit”.
WE ARE DEBTORS
Rom 8:12 “Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God”.
Every person redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ is indebted, only to the Holy Spirit. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit that we are redeemed, so we are obligated to live according to His dictates. We are indebted to Him to the tone of living the Spirit filled and the Spirit controlled life.
My comment: we are debtors? This is another way of saying that Jesus did not pay it all. We are slaves and not sons. It sounds just awful. The scripture that he quoted doesn’t sound that way. The text says we are not debtors to the flesh, but it does not say what we are in debt to. It’s a debt of gratitude.
He says we are obligated to live right. That is too strong.
He goes on:
We are not in any way indebted to the flesh. We are not to live according to the directives of our carnal mind (the flesh). We are free from the sin nature, the carnal mind (the flesh). Rom. 6:6-14.
The Holy Spirit started the redemption work in us and it is through the Holy Spirit we can sustain it. It is through the power of the Holy Spirit we would kill the deeds of the sinful nature. We’re indeed sons of God when we depend on the Holy Spirit to dictate for us.
My comment: we are sons only if we obey him? We often point out that disobedience does not cause a child to cease to be his father’s son. George Strait says in one of his songs that fathers do not love their children every now and then. The last verse of the song is about a sinner entering heaven by grace alone. He hears the song from the other side: “it’s a love without end, amen”. Are we better than God?
Now he justifies his lordship comment by quoting the next verse of the passage:
Rom. 8:14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
Exo. 33:14. “And He said, My presence shall go with you, and I will give you rest”.
The Holy Spirit’s leading is the presence of God in the lives of those He redeemed through the blood of Christ. We should therefore yield to the leadings of the Holy Spirit to sustain the work He did inside us.
How do we yield to the Holy Spirit without stress? How do we live the Spirit filled and the Spirit controlled life?
My comment: he is totally clueless about how to yield to the Spirit. His subtle suggestions get us focused on self and back under the law. The word Spirit-filled belongs in the Mess-Age with the other hyphenated words: god-energy, light-seeds, etc. It never occurs in the literal Bible translations. The whole article reeks of the false gospel of lordship salvation, Deeper Life, and other NAR doctrines of demons.
The author has other posts quoting NAR men of god such as Copeland. This is a friend of Sharjeel. Strangely, the journalist that Surriya, Sharjeel and I follow never even satirically talks about the “Spirit-filled life” in her videos exposing goofy Christianity in Africa. She has seen enough of the madness that is called holy spirit. She is much more about being a humanitarian. And yet she confesses that Jesus is enough. She has a simple, childlike faith that inspires.
Jason, I hope that you have helped them too!
Last month, I had an amusing conversation on Discord. Lewis Adame likes to use it as an alternative to mainstream social media. Gamers like Discord. I first discovered it as part of a gaming community. A troll showed up and started virtue signaling and playing the race card. He also started street preaching in classical, fire and brimstone, lordship style. Commenters were saying that he was not there to “spread the faith”. The troll’s arguments included scripture bombing, dazzle-tastic pictures of the Borgia jesus, videos from NAR pastors, and accusations that I am a Bible denying atheist.
During the grueling exchange, the troll said that I lacked the “holy spirit” and was not born again. I told him that I do not need a spirit to believe the gospel and I refused to address his issues. I did not want to be distracted from believing. The notion that I need the Holy Spirit in me to believe is nothing less than pregeneration. His holy spirit seemed to be a burning in the bosom. When fake pastors manifest its presence, my African friends mockingly call it the spirit of the African forest. It isn’t holy at all.
A commenter said he used to be Protestant, used to pray in the morning, and used to have “spirit water”. I don’t know what he meant by that. Holy water in an Episcopal church?
Another comment of his said: “hey [namecalling], also stopping the practice doesn’t mean you stop believing”. He seems to get it. He can clearly separate faith from these goofy practices, which is probably why he left church.
The troll said: “but you fell away. Understandable, now you’re lost in sin. ok, makes sense”. Typical lordship insults.
Another commenter said: “faith in christ, that’s the whole idea of being a protestant”. I don’t know about “protestant” anymore, but he has the right idea of being a believer. He also said he never stopped believing.
The troll said: “Mind as well stop believing, both end up in hell”. This is how lordship manipulates. They never believe the believers.
The first commenter said: “that’s not how it works” and “main purpose is to believe”. As we keep saying. Believing is not just the main thing but the only thing that results in receiving grace that saves.
The troll said: “yeah but some people don’t repent and stop sinning”. Always a but.
The two commenters appeared to have the childlike faith that I had before coming out of confusion. I hope that I have helped them.
And I used to think that embracing and believing are equivalent.
Following is an excerpt from a comment I read today. Please note that I have bolded certain phrases for emphasis:
The One who knew no sin, must now become sin. And He did. For homosexuals. For murderers. For child molesters. For you. For me. But though He did all of that so that we could live with Him, most will reject Him and prefer to hate Him who is good.
This is who we identify with if we are Christian. We do not identify with our sins. I do not proclaim (if I were any of the following) that I am a homosexual or an alcoholic or an adulterer, a murderer. I would instead tell you that I am a Christian, a man of God who by His grace, saved me though I was at war with Him.
I said all that to say this: Those who hate, who build their temples of flesh via perversions, hate, and the LIE, will consider not only us who exalt the Christ, but the Christ Himself as hate. The liars will call God, a liar. In other words, Satan and his minions have never and will never stop denying the Messiah and His sheep, like me. They have identified with their father, the Devil…
My comment: this one is really tricky. The writer seems to suggest that anyone who identifies with their sins identifies with their father, who is the Devil.
Identifying with our new sinless nature and who we are in Christ is a constructive focus for Christians. However, failing to consistently do so is not a litmus test for who does, and who does not have eternal life.
If it were, then we could readily determine that anyone who proclaims they are any one of these things does not have eternal life. And, an introspective person would feel compelled to ask themselves if they identify with Christ or with their sin.
Jesus paid the full price for our sins, leaving us nothing to pay. He was raised from the dead, proving that His payment was accepted. Anyone who believes that has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.
The Bible does not say “whosoever believeth in Him and identifieth with Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Also, many people who identify as Christians have never believed in Jesus as Savior.
One from today:
The whole world has been deceived. Being deceived in itself is not an excuse or nobody would have to worry.They think that good people go to heaven and bad people to Hell(if they believe in Hell) but truth is we are all bad, and the only people that go to heaven are those of us that humble ourselves before Jesus, thanking Him for dying on cross for our sins, inviting Him in, and yes repenting to best of our ability
Those that go to Hell are the ones that die rejecting Christs free gift.
If we support abortion homosexuality, the removal of God/Christ from classroom Public square, then that is only evidence that we are still rejecting Christ
My comment: This person mixes truth with error.
We do not have to “thank Jesus for dying on the cross for our sins” in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. And, we don’t have to “invite Him in.” The commenter adds “repenting to the best of our ability,” which he never defines.
He is right that those who end up in hell are those who have rejected Christ’s free gift.
But, one’s attitudes and behavior have no bearing in providing “evidence that we are still rejecting Christ.”
A person receives eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Paula White does not have the gospel right. She doesn’t have the right authority either to pastor a church. And being an adulteress with Benny Hinn kind of shows her obedience may not be quite figured out yet, so if she’s relying on that for eternal life, she needs to be concerned. Too quickly we can be out of obedience, then what?
From Paula White: “God comes into covenant with us because of our faith and obedience”
That is not the Gospel. She never tweets it.
Jason – you’re right. In the end we always need to keep our focus on the fact that the lost need saved….
Johninnc,
Thank you (regarding my latest article). I had someone really confused and in fear again for someone using certain terminology with her. I hope it was clear.
John MacArthur has a sermon on ‘the only road to heaven’ and he sure doesn’t share the gospel but a HUGE and I mean vast list of conditions that NO ONE could be saved with.
He seriously doesn’t get it.
Holly, John MacArthur is bad news.
Confessing sins is not a requirement for receiving the free gift of eternal life. Neither are any of the myriad conditions MacArthur tries to add to the gospel (turning from sin – which is included in MacArthur’s definition of repentance, willingness to obey, and so on). Not to mention that MacArthur teaches that faith (and repentance) are granted by God.
By the way, I really enjoyed your latest article!
John, Sharon most certainly has assumed the role of God in her judgment, and may not be considering where her final destination may be if she doesn’t come to know the truth. But many false teachers of today make similar comments.
This one from John MacArthur may be a little more ‘polished’ than ‘Sharon’ but this is the type of cistern a lot of these people drink from.
MacArthur says:
“Here’s what God says, Confess your sin,
Repent and embrace His Son as your only hope of salvation.
That’s the first thing He says.
And if you don’t agree to do that, you’re going to hell forever.”
Where is the gospel in his quote? Where do we see confessing our sins as part of receiving the free gift of eternal life?
Jason, very well put.
I don’t want to guess what his affiliation is, lol. His party’s symbol might be Candace’s big tent or Pelosi’s broom. Or he might be shaking hands with the Conservative Mexican. But whatever. The enemy of my enemy is the lost soul who needs the gospel.
Following is a comment I read today by someone going by “Sharon,” regarding a public figure with whom she disagrees politically:
HE WILL ROT IN THE DEEPEST PITS OF HELL, AGONY FOR HIM.
My comment: “Sharon” has assumed the role of God in judging whether or not this person has eternal life. Such comments undermine the gospel, and lead me to believe the commenters who are “defending the faith” may not really understand it.
This is all too common, as many people will infer that God is a member of their pet political party (whichever that may be).
Holly, yeah, I see a lot of the same mentality from professed atheists.
John and Jason, agree.
A lot of the atheists have quite a bit in common with the load-ship false doctrine. They think they’re good and better than others. Similarly to the Pharisee praying in the square.
Jason, that is the place to be!
And there’s always a sinner who thinks he’s better than you. I thought I was better than Museveni, and Wurmbrand thought he was better than me. Finally, I decided I had enough of the You Are Damned game and got on the grace train.
Holly, it is a very common mindset – either be better than worse sinners or do enough good to offset any bad.
Johninnc – that comment is sadly what a lot of people believe and they also don’t like to be compared to other sinners who are ‘way worse’. I have even heard some say if Hitler got to go to heaven, they don’t want to be there.
They really don’t understand, not even one who makes a lie will enter heaven… (Rev 21:7)
An excerpt from a comment to a political article today:
My next door neighbor is concerned for my soul. To my knowledge, I have not cheated anyone out of anything, nor murdered, nor violated many of the ten commandments.
My comment: Whoever wrote the above demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the gospel. He doesn’t seem to see his need for a Savior, as he thinks he’s been pretty good.
Jason, it sounds like you were on the receiving end of a lot of misplaced anger. Politics, by its very nature, is dependent on numbers and consensus. Grace isn’t as popular as LS.
I am glad that Sharjeel is committed to the truth of God’s grace.
I was in a group called Jesus is the Only Way. It was 100% political, with zero doctrine. It was Trump supporting, from the right. The one post with doctrine denied OSAS and came straight from the admin.
I was in there by accident. I had been asked three questions upon joining. I answered the questions by stating that Jesus is the only way and that Lordship is the wrong way. I was accepted. And straight off the bat, the first post was lordship from the admin, who goes by Joseph Saladino on Facebook. Abiding in Him twisted and all that.
One of their posts said, essentially, turn from abortion or burn. I don’t hear this on Kevin’s Corner or at #walkaway rallies, where the message is that true tolerance is more likely to be found on the right and that the Democrats are the real racists. This was virtue signaling from the right. I couldn’t take it. I let them know. I left permanently. Another member left and expressed appallment at the works salvation preached.
One of the admin’s comments to me was: “[my full name] it has a lot to do with it you Hellbound baby killing coward you don’t stand up for the kids for righteousness you’re an evil buffoon repent bye-bye fool enjoyable baby killer”.
I never said I was for abortion. I had asked what abortion had to do with Jesus is the only way. I felt like I was in a racist, bigoted, intolerant group, just as the Left accuses us. Probably connected to the NAR, which ought to be judged by the same logic as that applied to Klanned Parenthood. They have destroyed the black church. Adeboye, Suleman, and Bushiri peddle their demonic doctrines. Adeola, Sowore, and Daddy Freeze exposed them. But I digress.
The admin was so triggered that he commented on my own post, where I had shared a grace based thought of an African who goes by Ninyo. He had a vision of a pastor whose Bible turned into a gun and started shooting the sheeple. It symbolizes the genocidal character of the lordship fake pastor who drags them back to the Old Covenant. I added my own comment: “the Gun is the master, sheeple slave”, making reference to the lyrics of a Bobi Wine song, where “the Gun” originally referred to a dictator. The admin commented: “enjoy hell babykiller”. Lordshippers are pro-life when it comes to babies, pro-death when it comes to refugees from the penalty of sin. That guy was sick.
Not long after that weird incident, another user showed up and liked many of my comments, including the post about the gun.
Last week, Sharjeel visited me from Nigeria. We went on a road trip and visited Jim Floyd. He talked about a ministry that he does there and set my mom at peace about me going. I am excited about the opportunity to be involved. Sharjeel knows about Ron Shea and is committed to the truth about God’s grace.
Jason, you have summarized it well.
LS is the disease and the rest of it is just symptoms. There are lots of people who give up one false religion for another.
Someone comments: “The Message of Repentance and Salvation is NOT a Church Doctrine BUT The WAY To Heaven”
It doesn’t say much. By repent they always mean of sin.
Someone replied: “Nowonder its full of false and unbiblical doctrines…I wonder how it leads to heaven”
He gets it. Lordship is full of unbiblical doctrines in a zillion variations: “jesus only” baptism, reprobation, calvanism, oneness heresy, get your miracle, and Owuorism. How can sheer chaos lead to heaven? Easy-believism is straight. People are coming out of lordship cults still believing lordship. It it the disease. The rest is symptoms.
John – I didn’t see the date on when you are going on hiatus, but I read your other two comments on Roman Catholicism and the atheists. It reminded me of a couple of similar things I’ve seen lately. They think they are ‘apologists’ and what I find happens is they can do a good job of convincing someone to their way of thinking, just like a good attorney. But like all debates, it’s not necessarily truth on either side.
I rarely see the true gospel posted in this discussions, but every now and then someone will. Apologetics tends to have a lot of proof texts which may be relevant, but people often don’t know the underlying context from His Word so at the very least it’s lacking substance or more often downright accursed.
John, I see so many of those kinds of sites throughout the internet.
One thing I’m noticing that is disturbing is some of the people that claim to understand grace are compromising and hanging out with those with a false gospel. Some say, ‘we don’t see eye to eye on everything, but they’re my brethren’. I don’t know if they are or aren’t, but not likely with their false gospel.
One additional interesting thing is that these same people are calling those of us who defend the truth of the gospel ‘divisive’. Of course the Bible says it is those who bring false teachings are the ones who are doing that (Rom 16:17; Titus 3:10-11).
The site you describe sounds pretty hard core Pentecostal. They at some point will probably try to pressure for money. Sounds like they base salvation on works, entire sanctification, and experiential Spirit presence. Since all this has to take place tithing and giving must follow as part of a “true” believers works.
One from today:
Evangelicals are heretics, pure and simple. That does not mean they are all bad people. They are without communion with the Church.
My comment: this comment was written from a Roman Catholic perspective. Some people who identify as evangelicals are heretics, but not for the reason the commenter cited. If anyone teaches a false gospel, he is a heretic.
I just read a bevy of comments to an article in a back-and-forth between professed Christians and professed atheists.
I never saw any comments from any of the professing Christians that talked about how to have eternal life.
In a thread to another article, I saw “turn or burn.” No gospel, just a religious regurgitation of 19th century Spurgeonism posing as the truth.
We have recently received a semi-barrage of spam comments pushing a certain website that purports to promote salvation through Jesus, but is instead a virulent attack on the gospel. I won’t mention the site here, but this is the general approach:
1. Reference current events to biblical prophecy
2. Give arguments as to why there is a God
3. Try to convince people that the Bible is the word of God
4. Provide a false gospel that conditions eternal life on forsaking sin, obeying Jesus, and asking God (repeatedly, if necessary) to give you the Holy Spirit. Also, remaining saved is conditioned on refraining from sin, and walking in the Spirit.
It is basically a “hurry up and believe a false gospel before it’s too late” message. The comments started with more vague language, but have become increasingly prescriptive as to how to gain and keep eternal life.
Satan is willing for people to believe as much as possible about the Bible, without their actually believing in Jesus as their Savior.
That particular one did not have LS on his wall. He was addressing fake pastors that talk about heaven while ignoring the needy, typically Pentecostal, WOF, and NAR. It was on a political group. He probably understood where I was coming from.
Jason, although I didn’t mean it the way it sounded, you are right, your gospel is never wasted even if that particular one didn’t see it, I always believe there is a reason and that it comes with power.
Jason, I think it’s always good to share the gospel, and I don’t think it’s in vain.
Leaving a like is the online equivalent of raising your hand. But I am not saying I am sure of anything. I hope that my sharing of the gospel is not in vain.
Jason, I’m unsure if you were saying Azeez ‘liked’ your post or not, but trust me when I say, accursed teachers who are teaching false gospels only ‘like’ a post because the higher the number of ‘likes’ on most social media drives more people to see the post. Not just FB, but comments on websites too.
Here is something interesting. Azeez Ademola has some interesting posts in a certain group. One piece of his satire said, “Nigeria fire service is in heaven, and that’s why when fire occurs, we dial ALLAH or JESUS, while d US dial 911” (originally in all caps, and the name of the country was abbreviated).
Azeez is usually reminding his audience of James 2:19 and is speaking of practical matters. All talk and no action is uninspiring.
I shared Ralph Yankee Arnold’s video, “Why the cross is about fire insurance”, and received a like. We are on the same page about both matters. Once again, grace resonates.
Chas, yes, the Roman Catholics have all sorts of sacraments added to the free gift of eternal life. It’s really sad because they’ve had it drummed into their heads that the Catholic church is the only way to be saved, and they are afraid to look into the truth in His Word. They still are taught they can’t know it without guidance from the Catholic Apologists or Priests.
Jason, yeah. They were becoming a distraction.
I think I noticed some comments were deleted, lol.
johninnc said:
“they believe part of the gospel. They may believe that Jesus is God, that He died on the cross, and that He was raised from the dead. They might even say they believe that He died for our sins. But, they don’t really understand that His payment for our sins was complete. In other words, they think they must, or may have some ‘contingent righteousness,’that if they would really try, could help atone for their sins.”
That describes Roman Catholics exactly.
Brad, you brought up a number of good points.
I would like to add some of my thoughts to a couple of them.
You said: The thing about soul winning I’ve realized is that the person has to be aware they need saving in the first place.
My comment: Yes. That is why talking to religious people can be so difficult. They may have a variety of beliefs about their inherent goodness, or lack thereof. But, they think that their religion will, can, or might save them. So, they are fearful of letting it go. Such people know they need a savior, and think they may have found it in their religion.
Jesus addressed this need in Nicodemus by telling him that unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).
You said: Is this why God’s drawing is such a necessity?
My comment: Yes. I think that God works in all sorts of ways in peoples’ lives to convince them of their need and his solution. It is through God’s word that people come to faith, and His word often must be delivered by someone who understands it (like with Philip and the eunuch).
You said: That’s the problem with works for salvation beliefs of all kinds, they naturally cause a person to see themselves as “good” in their own efforts.
My comment: Some people see themselves as good in their own efforts. Others don’t really think their efforts will be effective, but they don’t really trust in Christ as the solution. This includes people who think that Christ is necessary for salvation, but that He is not enough. In other words, they believe part of the gospel. They may believe that Jesus is God, that He died on the cross, and that He was raised from the dead. They might even say they believe that He died for our sins. But, they don’t really understand that His payment for our sins was complete. In other words, they think they must, or may have some “contingent righteousness,” that if they would really try, could help atone for their sins.
Whatever the case, these are some of the false beliefs to which all the different variations of the false gospels of “Christ plus works for eternal life” appeal.
You said: No wonder it said at the end of Ephesians 2:9 “lest any man should boast”.
My comment: Yeah. That makes it plain that no man could ever contribute to his eternal salvation.
I have to say johninnc. After this long discussion with my uncle I had been having; I completely understand why you moderate the comments the way you do here. Especially for people who are in error and only interested in pushing their errors on others. I remember way back last year when my uncle first emailed me. I started off by asking simple questions: “Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?” he replied yes. Then I asked “Do you believe anything else besides the Bible is also the Word of God?” he answered yes. Correct me if I’m wrong – but I think I should have stopped replying right there and then.
The thing about soul winning I’ve realized is that the person has to be aware they need saving in the first place. So then sometimes the bad news has to be given before the good news. What’s the best way to do that in person? It seems a little strong to open with “hey buddy, you’re going to Hell”. Because it is such a common perception that Christians just use fear to get people to believe them. But at the same time they actually should be afraid or at least concerned. Is this why God’s drawing is such a necessity?
The discussion with my uncle became so complicated that it was actually beginning to affect me mentally. I was spending all of my emails just cleaning up after his mess, only for him to ignore it all and palm it off as nonsense and keep going. So I blocked him and deleted all of our emails. Nobody should ever have to read what I read from him. No one.
I simplified the situation for those who know the Truth and those who don’t. Metaphorically; we are standing on a solid immovable rock that is surrounded by a raging river of water. Those in error are in that water, but they believe that they will be able to keep their heads above the water level forever by their own efforts. When they inevitably start to sink from exhaustion, those who are willing to admit to their error eagerly get on the rock, but those who are too consumed by their pride would rather sink and drown, before ever having to admit to their error.
That’s the problem with works for salvation beliefs of all kinds, they naturally cause a person to see themselves as “good” in their own efforts. The longer they believe such errors the more prideful in their apparent “good” state they become. Their pride, if left unchecked, makes them feel good and their “good” works become to them as a drug fix is to a heroin addict. Then they don’t want to let go of their addiction to their pride and would rather go to their graves, than ever quitting it.
No wonder it said at the end of Ephesians 2:9 “lest any man should boast”.
Yeh Holly. It is funny that the very verses that warn of them are the same verses they use to make us more aware of them. They don’t know that we know and they expose themselves to us by not knowing that they are doing so. Because we know that they don’t know that we know. I know that this is a challenge to read, but they don’t know why this is a challenge to read. Because they don’t know what we know. Their irony is a challenge to not know, because we already know what they don’t know, and knowing is half the battle. The other half is their battle against knowing that two halves make a whole. A whole is not known by them. But we know a whole is what they don’t know. Because they are halves, seeing nothing but words on a page. But we know they are not just words on a page. They are words requiring a whole in order to be understood. But they see a half as a whole. Because they have never seen the other half. They see nothing because they don’t see everything. Knowing this, we can know the whole, by rejecting the halves that don’t know that they don’t know. They are the ones who expose themselves by not knowing. But we know they don’t know. And knowing them is the other half of the battle. If you know, then they know nothing in your view. Because your view is of the whole. The whole they have never known to be knowable. Because they do not know what they think they know. And what they think they know is that we don’t know. But we know their knowing is not knowledge. It is no knowledge that they know best. They know what I mean. Because they believe not knowing knows no bounds. So they don’t know that they know what I mean. They don’t know. Do you know that they don’t know? Because they do know one thing, and that is nothing. If nothing was something, they would know everything.
Lewis Adame, the Conservative Mexican, has a video called, What’s Your Darkest Secret. In the comments, I shared my story, how I was redpilled about lordship, relating especially the NAR and fake pastors. It wouldn’t be appropriate to paste the whole comment here. Suffice it to say that he intimated agreement by saying: “the corruption of the church. A sign of what is to come if we don’t wise up”.
Brad, so ironic, the passages you used on the false teachers looking like the sheep. Yet the very thing the fruit inspectors use to see if someone is ‘truly saved’ is outward appearance and good works.
Their group has the Five Solas as their statement of faith. I reminded them that the Five Solas is clear on the gospel, and they aren’t, to no avail. No repentance in the Five Solas, even though it is classic “Reformation” stuff. Figure that.
Jason, and it’s likely her definition of repent was “turn from sin.”
And then I got banned for arguing against lordship. One of them told me that John 3:16 says to repent and believe in the Greek. I called her out on it. After more grueling argument, she eventually admitted that she made a mistake. I said it was ok. A few hours later, they removed me. Their posts are filled with MacArthur and Washer.
Jason, that is really ironic.
I was in the group Exposing NAR Heresy on Facebook. Someone advertised MacArthur’s book on Paul. She said, “give it a read”. I said I give it a pass. And she liked my comment. What happened, lol?
Jason, yes, that is quite the contradiction! I once heard someone at a crowded event announce over a public address the opportunity to come “earn free stuff.”
Someone tweeted a picture of a sign that said, “Free medical check-up for eight thousand naira only”. Reminds me so much of the contradictions of LS, not to mention corruption (2 Corinthians 11:3).
Brad, yeah, much of professing Christendom approaches scripture with trying to read into it their pre-existing belief in receiving eternal life by works. It’s just not in there.
Yep. God gave us a single book containing everything we NEED to know. To never stray from that book is to remain protected from error.
But if you’re going to read it out of context and only with the interest of twisting it to suit your false beliefs, you might as well be reading Harry Potter. The result will be much the same. Error.
Brad, you are right that the Bible says that false teachers will look like the real deal. That is why the “gospel” being espoused by anyone must be compared to God’s word.
Considering that the Biblically accurate definition for “Christian” is someone who has trusted in Christ alone for salvation… then no, only a very small percentage of those who wear the “Christian” label are actually Christians.
“Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.”
Acts 26:28 KJV
“Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.”
1 Peter 4:16 KJV
“And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.”
Acts 11:26 KJV
The term “Christian(s)” is a label accepted by God in His Word as seen in these 3 times it is mentioned there. So many other labels and group names are not in God’s Word – like “Catholic”, “Calvinist” and “Mormon” for a few examples. These false groups just call themselves something they really aren’t at all. They have changed the definiton of what a Christian is and have deceived many men and women in doing so, but God’s definition of a Christian will always remain the same.
Satan has his puppets teaching lies while wearing the “Christian” label outwardly. They are against God while claiming to be for God.
“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 KJV
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”
Matthew 7:15 KJV
Note the repeated emphasis on false teachers looking like the real deal. Even mentioning Satan himself. In the first passage it tells us to not be surprised about this either; “And no marvel”, “Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness”.
The only effective lie is the lie that succesfully appears as truth, otherwise the lie fails. No person in history (I hope) has ever been deceived by a lie that made zero effort to conceal what it is to them:
“Hey buddy unicorns are real, but what I just told you is a lie” fails immediately to convince anyone because it is a lie with no disguise.
But what about:
“Hey buddy unicorns are real”… now the lie has the disguise it >needs< in order to (at least) be considered by people, because no declaration of it being a lie is made – the implication being that the existence of unicorns is the truth.
“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”
Matthew 7:13-14 KJV
Note the words "many" and "few". Many wear the label "Christian", but few actually ARE Christians.
Jason, I tend to agree with you. It is unlikely that large percentages of populations of any nation are Christians.
From Freedom Force Battalion. “Traitors Have Mark of the Beast”. YouTube, Mar 20, 2019.
This lady reveals a dirty secret: the three largest Christian nations are USA, Brazil, and Russia. Bolsonaro gets a mention. She cites a statistic: Russia is 80% Christian, with “faith in Christ”. I call baloney. Most professing Christians do not know the gospel, and Russia is mostly the farthest removed denomination from grace: Eastern Orthodox.
Every once in awhile, I keep tabs on Q. It’s a mixed bag. John 3:16 is sometimes quoted, and other times one gets Romans railroaded. Eschatology aside, the most important thing of all is being downplayed and muddled.
I just checked in today and the conversation was edifying. Thanks to all of you.
I am praying for everyone.
Kate.
Holly, yes I was being a bit rash citing that verse without checking context, I heard it recently and it stuck in my mind. Thanks for your thoughtful replies despite what you are having to deal with, have prayed for your situation.
Hobbs, that is spoken to a nation under the law, and Christ is the end of the law for those of us who believe. If we look at that verse in context, the likelihood is that this is a non-believing Israelite, similar to the Pharisees who pray to be seen of men, but their hearts aren’t seeking God, nor do they believe upon Him. But whatever way it is spoken of, they did not have the same mediator that we do, Christ, who is both King and Priest (along with prophet) and as John said we have an intercessor who always prays for us.
I do know the condemnation we can bring, but remember again, we are not under the law, so just asking Him to help us along as we try to walk in the Spirit vs. the lusts of the flesh always helps. And I believe as we just trust Him in that, spend some time with Him in His Word and in prayer, it is the good thing we’ve chosen and it won’t be taken from us.
I know some of the Word seems scary, but we have to ask, is this speaking of our position or our walk? Or we might ask, is this speaking of being justified to eternal life, or one who already is who needs to walk in the Spirit so that we can be justified in the sight of others, thereby being an example for others to follow? Or does this speak to eternal salvation or a physical or temporal deliverance from something?
Anyways, that has helped me a lot as I look at who is being spoken to. Obviously we want to do right in our new man, but we do war with the flesh. One day we’ll be delivered of that too.
John, thanks for encouraging reminder re. Romans 8:26.
Jason, agree that “asking Jesus into your heart” as the way of receiving eternal life is not biblical.
Right, I meant Revelation 3:20. I usually see it as a prooftext for the tired old “ask jesus into your heart” nonsense.
Jason, I’m assuming you meant Revelation 3:20.
I don’t think that Romans 10:10 should be included in a gospel presentation, because it gives the impression that verbally or publically confessing Christ is necessary to receive eternal life, which is not true.
Revelation 3:20 is viewed by most free grace proponents as a call to believers for a more intimate fellowship with Christ. That view makes a lot of sense.
It also would be consistent with grace to view “open the door” in Revelation 3:20 as a metaphor for believing in Jesus as Savior. That would only make sense if Revelation 3:20 was not part of the letter to the church at Laodicea (in other words, if it followed the letter to the church at Laodicea and was an appeal to non-believers).
In any event, the problem with using Revelation 3:20 as part of a gospel presentation is that it is so easily misused and misunderstood to imply that one needs to desire a relationship with Jesus in order to receive eternal life. Desiring a relationship with Jesus is not a condition to receiving the free gift of eternal life. And, people imbed all sorts of works into the meaning of desiring to have a relationship with Jesus.
I really hate it when people share salvation verses with me and they include the Disciples’ Prayer, Romans 10:10 and Revelation 10:20. And they are people with whom I have shard the gospel. They have been Romans Railroaded.
Hobbs, I know our minds can wander sometimes. We can be comforted by remembering that the Spirit intercedes for us in prayer (Romans 8:26) when we don’t even know what we should pray.
Yeah, it’s easy enough for your own mind to condemn you at times, thinking God has cursed you or something, without other people actually saying such terrible things. Sometimes I find the Bible itself quite scary, for instance the bit about ‘even his prayers are an abomination’, if one is in a very low state things like that can get a hold and you start wondering if God isn’t answering your pleas because you’re really reprobate and such. The mind is a very tricky thing.
Holly, that is abominable. I am sorry that you experienced the abuse from these mean-spirited people.
Johninnc, Most of those types when you ask them what the gospel is won’t even share it with you. I have literally asked, would you mind sharing the gospel with me? They refuse. I will ask three times, and even of pastors, one said I was trying to trick him. I told him I truly wanted to know what he thought the gospel was. He refused.
I share the gospel each time when they refused, telling them, how we cannot refuse to share the good news with others if they ask, and even if they don’t.
Another thing that many of those who see things this way do, is suggest that because you have problems, sicknesses, or trials in your life, that it is because you are 1) unsaved or 2) being punished by God.
I understand chastening, but some seriously believe that it’s all from God (sickness, problems, trials, etc.). One cult (believe they were hyper-Calvinists) told me that God killed my husband because he didn’t have the Spirit, and that God struck my dad with a stroke (in his 80s) and my mom with cancer (in her 80s) because they didn’t have the Spirit. Literally these were three leaders in the ‘ministry’ who stalked me on Facebook and saw one of my parents journals from their last mission and found out the info on the stroke and cancer.
Enemies of the gospel…
Holly, yeah – I’ve seen/heard more than one person imply that anyone who isn’t happy, or even who is bored doesn’t have eternal life. This kind of mindset would require one to assess his level of happiness to corroborate whether or not he had eternal life. That is really a dead end.
And, as you said, he didn’t make much sense. For example, “trying” to be a “real Christian” doesn’t really make sense, given that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Jason
The best thing for us all obviously, is to stay far away from videos that are not sound, teachers, cults, etc., marking and avoiding and then staying away.
When I do research on them, I try to do it in small sections, staying in the Word more than ever, because twisting God’s Word is the job of the accuser of the brethren, and he’s quite good. Some is ever so slight, so it’s best to stay in the light and not get near the darkness. We expose it, but I sure try not to spend much time in it, it is exasperating, maddening, and depressing actually reading their lies. We will know them by their fruit, but I don’t want to be around the stench for long.
Johninnc, sadly, the guy doesn’t make much sense. Grammatically in places it’s kind of hard to see what he’s trying to say. But I can catch the assumptions that you commented on, I also noticed he pats himself on the back for being constantly busy serving others. And it also seemed like he was bragging about being treated like a weird misfit (his words).
While we know we are a peculiar people, and that we are set apart, and that in this world we will always have tribulation, the Bible doesn’t say all will see us as a weird misfit. Some will see the Light in us and be drawn to it as Jesus encouraged us to let our light so shine before men that they might see it and glorify our Father in heaven.
Unfortunately, I think a lot of times people do their ‘religion’ in public, praying long prayers in restaurants and then mistreating waiters and waitresses. Or they think praising God is saying ‘praise God’ or ‘Hallelujah’ every time someone speaks. I’m not trying to make someone uncomfortable for using those words, just seeing people use them in situations where people are so sick of the ‘religious’ and it just drives them away further by their behavior. We can speak about God by following the example of the disciples in Scripture (or so I believe) and it was knowledge of the Word that they gave to these people. The Scriptures are able to make one wise unto salvation, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I guess I rambled a bit, was just thinking of some of the situations I’ve been in with these types and the harm I’ve seen done.
Following is a comment that was in response to an article about early retirement. I selected it for discussion, because there is subtle undermining of the gospel throughout the comment. I have made the quotes from the article in bold, to distinguish them from the commenter’s points:
I’ve always enjoyed your Financial Samurai advice and applied it to my finances…but i’ll break down your problem with the all mighty dollar. 1) You will suffer an identity crisis for an unknown period— NO find yourself you forgot to do spiritual planning 2) You will be stuck in your head…not if you apply what you’ve been blessed with – i constantly busy with not enough hours in the day -serving others and sharing is the key…where did your wealth come from, it was a blessing. 3) People will treat you like a weird misfit. Yes that is great…being a real christian makes you different but until you do it you wont understand. 4) You’ll be disappointed that you aren’t much happier. Until you find something bigger and better than yourself JESUS CHRIST! what your missing the true meaning of life. 5) wonder no more whether this is all there is to life
My comment: While inordinate focus on financial concerns is shortsighted, believing in Jesus as Savior does not guarantee that a person will never feel bored and will always feel happy and content.
Serving others is a very good thing to do, and it can be joyful and rewarding. However, chiding someone who you think has neglected these matters when you have no idea, and contrasting that by publicly patting yourself on the back for your own good works is not a good thing to do.
Being a “real Christian” has nothing to do with doing anything. It has to do with whether one has believed in Jesus as Savior. If so, that person is a “real Christian,” no matter what they do or don’t do. If not, that person is not a “real Christian,” no matter what they do or don’t do. People won’t be able to tell whether or not one is a “real Christian.” If they could, fruit inspection would be a good idea, rather than religion’s attempts to insinuate works into the gospel.
And, to ASSUME that someone who has said they thought they would be happier when they retired has not “found Jesus” presumes that the commenter can tell whether or not another person has eternal life. This is self-righteousness, plain and simple.
In the last eight months, I somehow got so distracted by the fake pastors that I got my mind off of NAR. Yet the NAR installed the fake pastors. The result makes it obvious,. Every church calls itself apostolic. The seed faith nonsense is everywhere. When they toke the spirits in Africa, discerning Christians call it voodoo. Contemplating the connection is horrifying.
All these people: Hunt, Michaelson, Ankerberg, Lindsey, and others like Jan Markell, or any of those who have fairly well known blogs or shows do not call each other out. It has to get fairly bad for them to have an interest in doing so because they feel like they’re not as bad as some of the others. But evidently they seem to miss their own doctrinal issues.
Thanks Kate!
Regarding Dave Hunt and the other fella sitting silent
They don’t challenge for fear of the confrontation or they believe similarly to the one spouting the heresy.
The broad way is full of people believing they are saved but aren’t. As of late, it has really been bothering me that even though some believed at one point in nothing but Grace have been deceived and now have barred the way to heaven because of errant belief. I didn’t believe the Gospel until I came here.
Thank GOD that all of the attempts, which were few, at sharing the LS heresy, while laboring under its delusional, were unsuccessful.
Two more things
A memory was jogged again. Funny how that works.
While I attended a “cowboy” church a couple of years back the youth pastor recounted his salvation experience and his attempts as seeing people saved at a local biker rally. This biker rally was really a deal as it draws in people from all over the country. They, the church, set up their tent at the rally to spread the gospel. Not many were saved. I realize now because the news they preach is just another form of legalism.
Those men and women that attend those rallies aren’t looking for reformation of their lives to save them. I think if the actual gospel would have been presented more people would have been saved. Maybe not but it saddens me to think that so many probably walked away more disillusioned with “Christianity”. This youth pastor’s salvation experience sounds like something from a fiction novel right down to hearing the literal bonds in his life breaking, like chains breaking. It is more in depth than that but I don’t want to get into it.
Second thing
In my Youtube recommendations was a video about the supposed errant belief of OSAS. The metrics for like and dislikes were turned off as well as the comments being disabled. I guess they probably couldn’t handle the criticism of actual believers debating the truth with them. I am grateful that Yankee’s and Cuccuzza’s videos allow comments to be on so that way when people come with their false beliefs try schooling the OSAS believers then they, those that believe the actual gospel, can share the truth with them.
Anyway that is enough from me
Hope the break does you some good, Johninnc
As always you are all in my prayers.
Kate
Fryingpan, very good point. Comments like that should be challenged by anyone interested in defending the gospel.
It reminds me of the 700 Club. No LS comment is ever challenged.
Re John Ankerberg . . . Let their words and deeds shed some light.
From time to time I watch an old video of his program where he had Joanna Michaelson and Dave Hunt on as panel guests. I watch it because of research I do from time to time on occult influences in the church. I’ve talked about Dave Hunt extensively on other threads. He was NOT clear on the gospel in spite of him being one who could be quoted as believing in “Salvation by grace in faith alone by Christ alone.”
I was re-watching this last week (it had been at least a year, probably more like 2 or 3 years) since the last time I watched it. At one point Joanna Michaelson starts spewing the typical LS tripe of, “After I became TRUE Christian and a TRUE believer” (or whatever the heck she actually said) it was obvious she believes in some form of front or back-loaded “gospel”. Not a peep out of Dave Hunt or John Ankerberg whereas about 98% of anyone who reads and posts here would have been like, “Now, wait a minute here. Are you suggesting we can only know we have eternal life by the quality of our faith or by the quality of our Christian walk?”
The things they don’t say can sometimes be just as revealing as the things they DO say . . .
I didn’t realize that my friend’s quote originated from a first century fake pastor called Tertullian. I thought it was just stuff that goes around.
William, I am not personally familiar with John Ankerberg. I am generally highly-supsicious of prominent TV preachers, because grace doesn’t seem to draw a broad audience. I found two comments in our history that mention him, and not in a positive way. Please see below:
A friend posted: “you cannot parcel out freedom in pieces because freedom is all or nothing”
I could say the exact same about grace. LS loves to chop in bits and pieces, and makes pieces of you in the process.
John, What is your opinion on John Ankerberg? Is he Free Grace and is he sound in his doctrine?
Jason, the church that was the subject of the comment that you referenced had a lot of bad influences.
Given that, it seems highly likely that many of the regular attendees would be unclear as to how to have eternal life.
Joel Comiskey was mentioned in this comment:
I had the misfortune of finding him on Twitter. He even briefly followed me if I recall. One of my followers likes my anti-lordship tweets but also follows Comiskey. He raises the following red flags. He has 32 books. He leads cell churches.
I once was in a Bible study that felt like a cell group. It didn’t feel comfortable. They ask too many personal questions. They disciple you. They mislead you. They rule you. I’m introverted, and introverts don’t belong. I like being in a small group where I can talk about my life because I can, not because I have to. Comiskey wants to be one of these rulers. I don’t know how to describe it. MacArthur follows the same model. The WCG exit support site condemns it as dialectical materialism. Well, good for them. It’s fake friendliness. I get a whiff of it and run. Others get sucked in and abused. I hear all sorts of horror stories. My job coach turned dietary tormentor felt similar.
On Twitter, most of Comiskey’s stuff was consistent with grace. But he retweeted commenter1. Commenter1 talked about following jesus and added that it is the narrow way that leads to life. Commenter1 and the above mentioned friend follow each other. I straightened commenter1 out and she thanked me for it. She came from a background that denied OSAS. She said she preferred the truth.
Commenter2 followed me shortly after. I can’t recall what tweets of mine she had liked. She has a foreign surname. When I check, her timeline is filled with AAC, punctuated with Comiskey. She had also retweeted commenter1’s awful comment. The poor soul does not discern that Comiskey is an American fake pastor. She too probably appreciated my correction.
Meanwhile, one of the Truth Channel’s prophecies failed, on Feb 23, 2019. He changed the prophecy to fit the news. Don’t you hate that. He calls out fake pastors and is fake himself.
I have observed people saying, “network receive sense in jesus name”, on livestreams. It has zero effect. The network remains useless. Even when they find grace, they can’t break the habit of looking for that daily miracle.
John, they misunderstand who God convicts (the whole world) and they don’t correctly understand what the meaning of repentance is.
The funny yet sad part is they actually believe they have turned from their sin, and that their turning from sin proves they’re saved. If there was such a thing as good luck, they would need it. They only need to ask their spouse, or sibling, or parent if they’ve succeeded at turning from sin. Although you know that they have a sliding scale, even though they cannot identify what it is because of course none of what they say is Biblical truth.
Following is an excerpt from a comment I read today:
Perhaps GOD will convict their hearts and cause them to turn from their sin just as he has done for all those that are saved by grace.
My comment: This makes it sound like God causes all Christians to automatically turn from all of their sins in this lifetime. The Bible does not teach this, and the implication is that if someone is still doing anything sinful, or even having any sinful thoughts, that it means they haven’t received eternal life. This false message leads to fruit inspection and causes people to focus on themselves, compare themselves to others, and to not focus on Christ and His righteousness.
Lordship Salvation: More Owuorism
My Kenyan friend reports regularly on the insane ramblings of the…(edited by administrator). This time, the baal prophet makes a list of sins that will keep the church from being raptured. It’s the usual virtue signaling stuff, but this item takes the ugali:
“rejecting repentance which is the blood of Jesus”
The blood of Jesus is physical blood that was literally poured for us when His side was pierced. It cannot be redefined as repenting of sin. Simple faith makes it effective. This is the same thief that is making himself lord. It’s an utter mockery.
Jason, I imagine that one really “burns up” the LS crowd.
Ralph Yankee Arnold has a recent sermon called “Why the Cross Is About Fire Insurance”. And I am like, that is the only motive consistent with grace. It teaches us, without threatening us, to appreciate everything that God has done for us. I shared with a Kenyan friend, and his response: “grace is everything. We are nothing without it”. Heaven forever.
Jason, I am happy that you were able to share “The Gospel” booklet, and I am hopeful that it will be a blessing to those who read it.
The black hebrew israelites have been in the news lately, because of a weird incident involving Catholic boys in MAGA hats and an obnoxious Native American. Kevin’s Corner covered it.
At a restaurant, I recently shared a Ron Shea booklet with an African-American woman who comes from a black hebrew israelite background. She did not seem racist. She had stopped going to church. Another worker was blessed by the booklet and asked for three more to share with friends.
Dr Mumbi is a black hebrew israelite from Kenya. These people are lordship, Galatianistic, and influenced by hebrew roots and sacred name. Their racist side is rearing its ugly head. I don’t follow these movements to get entangled but to get informed and sound the alarm.
Some of Mumbi’s followers are interested in her politics and not the hebrew roots aspect. But even her politics is extremely toxic. She supports the black supremacist EFF in South Africa and trashes reasonable leaders such as Bobi Wine. She gives misleading information about several countries. On the social networks, I met a Ugandan friend who agrees with me.
There is not much material on the web that exposes Mumbi. I was drafting a much longer post, but I’m afraid I would say too much.
Jason, very good comment.
Just some pablum about wanting to be a Christian without an explanation of who Jesus is and how one receives eternal life really comes up short.
When they don’t get to the point
We are used to the case where the evangelist does not keep it real. They imply works in some way. Sometimes, they don’t get to the point. They say that there is a way but don’t show it.
The video “A Devout Palestinian Christian Becomes a Muslim” talks about a man’s search of the real God. He tells the seeker to ask God for the truth, without simply giving it. He promises that God will give the truth to the unbeliever who seeks it, but he never tells the unbeliever to believe.
In his testimony, he took 40 minutes to pray, “I want to be a Christian”, and then felt release. It was an emotion oriented testimony.
This person does not use lordship. He does not say to repent of sin. He does not use guilt or imply works. He does not show that grace is the way, either. He essentially directs the seeking unbeliever to pray for the gospel instead of simply giving it. And I wonder, what use is that?
He never went over the death, burial and resurrection or explained who Jesus is.
Exhortations are seek God are as common as calls to repent of sin, and they are just as far from the truth. It is sad to see.
Indeed. One of Satan’s main ways he keeps the lost man lost (other than convincing us believers to keep our mouths shut) is by giving them a false hope of Heaven. By doing that, he can effectively make them so blind that they cannot believe the words of Scripture when it refers to salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
John 6:47, it is very sad and part of our mission is to help people understand the difference between the gospel and its seemingly endless false substitutes.
Great article! It’s really sad to see all the professing “Christians” have a false hope of going to Heaven. They will be in for the worst and biggest surprise of their lives when they stand before the Great White Throne Judgment (that is, if they never trusted Christ ALONE as their Savior). 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 rings true every single day within what I call “Selfianity” today (Selfianity because they’re putting all the focus on themselves and not Jesus Christ).
Jason, I am hopeful that people who read your comments and Facebook content who know Jesus as Savior will grow in grace and that those who do not will understand the difference between false performance-based religion and the truth of eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
A Youtuber named The Other Side puts up a video called “The Fraudulent Pastor and his Members”. Three members visit pastor. He prays over them like a pentecostal, laying hands and pushing them over like TB Joshua. The first two come to pay their tithes. He tells the second one to take his money and leave, calling it ritualistic money. A funny thing to say, since it is all ritual with these pastors. Woke believers believe fake pastors are mixing folk religion with Christianity.
Debt stricken, the third member comes to beg for help. Pastor is disappointed that his big bag is not full of naira. Pastor says something in Igbo, making clear the country of the comedy’s setting.
Enough manipulation already, they must be thinking. Next day, the church riots, and pastor wakes up in the hospital. He might have to go to England to get good care.
Other thoughts occur to me, and I make this comment: “Fake pastors love guilt. Salvation comes by grace through faith. The congregation learns that and leaves in a fit. They don’t go to church, like I don’t, unless they find Daddy Freeze. Ralph Yankee Arnold is too far for me on this side. Then Omoyele has a rally, and they greet him in the name of Jesus. Fake pastors for prison”
Lordship could be lurking behind the most harmless words, but not this time. I check again, and he gets my references and agrees. I am not sure I recommend Daddy Freeze, but I am slightly satirical. There is some political humor, too.
As more believers on the other side friend me on Facebook and like my free grace comments, I am encouraged. Grace resonates with them. I wonder how much is due to seeds I have been planting, but God gives the increase. The youth are rising to free grace.
William, my prayers for your son also.
JohnWI, Jack’s personal website is no longer active, which is why I haven’t been able to use the outbound email function.
Below is a truncated version of Jack’s testimony:
Johninnc, I tried using the link to Jack Weaver’s website and it is no longer working. Is there another place to go to to get the testimony that Jack had on his website?
Jason, those who believe that good works are necessary to receive eternal life see that message in virtually any and everything.
This use of hyperbole to unmask the rich ruler’s trusting in his works is an example of satire.
Following is an excerpt from a comment I found yesterday:
Other than the one rich young ruler, He never demanded that the rich give up all their money to the poor; (He only said that because He knew that is where the young man’s heart was.).
My comment: Jesus never demanded that the rich young ruler give all his money to the poor in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. Jesus did know the young man’s heart, and knew the young man was trying to earn eternal life by keeping the law perfectly.
Of course, Jesus knew that the young man had not – and could not – keep the commandments. Therefore, the young man needed another approach to receiving eternal life. He was trusting in his self-righteousness, which Jesus unmasked. The young man needed to trust in the righteousness of Christ for eternal life.
William, thanks for letting us know. I am sure that many of our readers and commenters are praying for all of you as well.
John, Thank you. It’s been very tough, especially for our son. He broke down and cried for a long time today.
William, still praying for you and your family.
John, and all brothers and sisters in the faith,
Please continue to pray for us. Things have been getting very overwhelming for us and our son in regards to the lawsuit that was filed against us.
Please pray for us. Thank you,
Stephen Mwangi posted on his wall: “The gospel of Jesus Christ is too simple to be true, unless you add to it!” (all caps)
More free grace comments followed. One of them said that pastors assigned themselves the job of adding. We know them too well.
More friends are wishing I could visit, but I would need passport, visa and airfare. And my family at home would worry about me.
PhilR, Praying for your home repair situation. Construction, especially labor is very expensive nowadays. My house had major construction done 8 years ago, and it cost a fortune. Contractors can be real pirates.
Jason, I am glad that at least one person at that site understood your reference and agreed with your point.
From Dr Njakiri Damages: “Nnamdi Kanu falls in love with Bishop Oyedepo(from episode 360). For doubling down and supporting his conspiracy theory that Buhari in Aso Rock is a body double, Biafran leader, Nnamdi Kanu forgot all that he had said about Yoruba pastors to embrace Bishop Oyedepo”
I retweeted with comment: “Where I have fellowship, fake pastors are marked and avoided, not quoted whenever convenient. Spurgeon, anyone? Count me out”
A conservative Latina who follows me liked the comment. Thank God, some people get it. The references are unfamiliar to most of us, but we know fake pastors by their fruit: lordship salvation.
Phil, I have prayed for you and your wife in both of these things.
Thanks William, just need prayer for some home repair problems that could get expensive. My wife and I also may have to consider moving into a retirement housing in the future.
Holly, that’s right – no one would actually “find it” under their false gospel. God would reveal it to a select few.
William, praying for the Lord’s help with your family. You know God’s mercy didn’t depart from Solomon either, yet some still don’t feel he persevered until the end. (Their false idea of attaining salvation).
Strange that they think they would somehow do a better job…
Johninnc, the comment you referenced on Matthew 7 made me shake my head.
One we’ve heard so often.
So let’s see, they believe that their FAITH is the GIFT from God.
He adds that anyone who believes differently is FOLLOWING a false idea and gospel.
He said, ‘Few will find it’…
How can one ‘follow’ or how can one ‘find’ if faith is the gift? Why do they bother even preaching about this junk if one is pre-chosen to follow the right way and most are pre-chosen to follow the wrong way.
It wouldn’t be few who would ‘find it’ but few who were pre-selected to find it.
PhilR, Thank you, brother. If there is anything that I can pray for, please don’t hesitate to post your prayer request here. We as believers must not let Satan and his many hordes hinder us in our prayer life praying for each other. God is on the throne and prayer changes things.
William, my prayers also for your situation.
William, exactly!
John, Yes, we are not kept eternally secure because of so called “unfailing faith” on our part which will no doubt be always susceptible to faltering and failure because we are still human, but we are kept eternally secure because we have BELIEVED on an UNFAILING SAVIOR who does not go back on His Word and promise – John 5:24, John 10:28-29, Ephesians 1:13, Romans 8:38-39, 2 Timothy 2:13.
William, you are correct that no one has ever had to remain faithful to receive or keep eternal life, nor to prove that they have received eternal life.
John, Regarding your earlier post:
“My comment: The original commenter has put himself in the position of judging the eternal destiny of another person. The original commenter’s false gospel, then, is tainted by one of the following errors:
1. It is impossible for a “true believer” to commit suicide; or
2. Suicide is not covered by Christ’s atonement; or
3. A believer has to avoid suicide to keep from losing eternal life.
None of these are true.”
——————————————————————————————————
My comment – Amen to your comment.
For the benefit of those reading our comments who are unsure of their salvation and the very nature of eternal life, Scripture is clear that salvation CANNOT BE LOST no matter what happens to a saved Christian down the line. This is verified by John 3:16, John 5:24, John 10:28-29, Ephesians 1:13, Romans 8:38-39, 2 Timothy 2:13.
The clear examples of Saul and Samson who both committed SUICIDE verify that they are still God’s children. God stripped away Saul’s KINGSHIP and withheld MERCY from Saul because of his disobedience, but God did not take away Saul’s salvation. Samson is listed as a Godly man of faith in Hebrews 11:32 despite his SUICIDE. Samson would not be listed there if he “lost his salvation.”
False teachers will no doubt pervert and eisegete 1 Samuel 16:14 and 2 Samuel 7:15 in an attempt to prove that Saul lost his salvation.
We now have false teachers like Kevin Thompson, Gene Kim, and Robert Breaker who will no doubt use the below verses in support of their false teaching that eternal security/once saved always saved is only in effect in the Church Age by teaching Free Grace, but not in the Old Testament, Tribulation, or Millennial dispensations. They are in essence teaching Lordship Salvation in the Old Testament, Tribulation, and Millennial time periods as Thompson, Kim, and Breaker insist that one must “persevere to the end” to maintain their salvation from slipping away.
1 Samuel 16:14 – But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
2 Samuel 7:15 – But my MERCY shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
Old Testament saints were not sealed with the Holy Spirit, which leads many false teachers to believe salvation can be lost whether it be by willful sin or by SUICIDE, but a careful reading of 2 Samuel 7:15 in the KJV indicates that the issue was MERCY, but not salvation. God asserted to David through Nathan the prophet that Solomon would be CHASTISED if he did wrong once he took over David’s throne, but that His MERCY would never depart from him as it departed from Saul.
Scripture is clear that Old Testament saints who sinned grievously would be chastised with premature PHYSICAL DEATH, but they are still God’s children – Ezekiel 18:24-32, Ezekiel 33:12-13. Ezekiel 18:24-32 and Ezekiel 33:12-13 is in agreement with what is taught in the New Testament regarding PHYSICAL DEATH for willfully sinning believers in the New Testament/Church Age dispensation – 1 John 5:16-17.
Clear examples are Ananias and Sapphira – Acts 5:1-11, the man who was sleeping with his stepmother – 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, and some of the Corinthian believers who were eating selfishly and getting drunk at the Lord’s Supper – 1 Corinthians 11:20-22, 1 Corinthians 11:29-30. In each case, the consequence was LOSS OF PHYSICAL LIFE or the recommendation of it, but their salvation remains intact and untouched. This is further confirmed by 1 Corinthians 3:15.
Going back to Saul, we read in 1 Samuel 28:18-19 that the spirit of Samuel clearly indicated to Saul that because of his blatant disobedience to God and his doing an incomplete job of wiping out the Amalekites, that Saul along with his son’s PHYSICAL LIVES will be terminated the very next day AND THAT SAUL AND HIS SONS WILL BE WITH SAMUEL. Being in the same place with Samuel is obviously ABRAHAM’S BOSOM – Luke 16:22.
1 Samuel 28:18-19 KJV – 18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: AND TOMORROW SHALT THOU AND THY SONS BE WITH ME: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
Saul took his own life and his 3 sons were killed by the Philistines – 1 Samuel 31 and again the issue was the TERMINATION OF PHYSICAL LIFE, NOT the loss of salvation.
In conclusion, these clear Scriptural passages debunk Kevin Thompson’s, Gene Kim’s and Robert Breaker’s false teaching that salvation can be lost if a saved believer commits suicide or commits grievous sin in the Old Testament, Tribulation, and Millennial dispensations. Eternal security/OSAS is in effect in all dispensations.
Hebrews 13:8 – Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
John, Thank you.
William, I have prayed for strength and wisdom for each of you, and that you would receive a just outcome.
John and all brothers and sisters in the faith,
Me, my wife, and son really need your prayer support. Our ex-daughter in law is bringing false accusations against us and has brought a lawsuit against us. Our ex-daughter in law is basically a blatant liar and con artist who conned our naive son into marrying her so that she could use him to pay for her huge debts. They are legally divorced now.
We are definitely up against an evil, spiteful, and vindictive person who is after our assets and has deliberately chosen this Christmas season to sue us. I am also certain that she is being used by Satan to attack us as we recently led our grandmother to faith in Christ and we also made a financial donation to a Christian organization.
We are hiring an attorney tomorrow morning to represent us and please pray that the Lord give us wisdom in handling this situation. We have already been treated unfairly the last time we were in court where a biased judge sided with her despite her lies and putting up a convincing facade.
The Bible says that God is a just and fair judge and a God of retribution. Please pray that God will do what He knows best. Our ex-daughter in law has been bringing one false accusation after another against our son and now she is throwing me and my wife into the picture.
Please pray for us. We greatly appreciate your prayers. Thank you.
Following is a comment related to a story about a Detroit meteorologist who committed suicide:
I DON’T THINK SO. THOSE INDIVIDUALS ARE PATHETIC AND COWARDS. THEY TAKE THE EASY WAY OUT. UNFORTUNATELY FOR THEM IS TOO LATE ON THE OTHER SIDE(HELL).
My comment: The original commenter has put himself in the position of judging the eternal destiny of another person. The original commenter’s false gospel, then, is tainted by one of the following errors:
1. It is impossible for a “true believer” to commit suicide; or
2. Suicide is not covered by Christ’s atonement; or
3. A believer has to avoid suicide to keep from losing eternal life.
None of these are true.
Jason, the preachy, virtue signaling stuff reflects a person’s anger and insecurity.
Lordship Salvation: not keeping it real. They are failing all over the place with coming forward, concerted effort to stop sinning, sorrow (emotionalism), promises, unavailable faith, evanescent grace, and seeing sin everywhere.
I once saw a preachy comment that said: “you dress formally for the governor but dress casual for God”, intimidating that God is furious and dishing out guilt. But the cross is the end of it. The gospel is free in both senses of the word: without cost and liberating. They just don’t get it.
Following is one I came across today:
Well, not everyone who calls Christ Lord are entering heaven, but ONLY the ones who DO the will of the Father who is in heaven (Matthew 7:21-23). Jesus hammered this point home repeatedly, that saying He’s God means nothing if we don’t submit to His will and authority (true belief and saving faith).
He is the ONLY one who grants grace and it is ONLY by His grace that we are saved (even our faith is a gift from the Father (Ephesians 2). Anyone who believes otherwise is following a false idea and gospel. The way to Heaven is narrow and the road is hard (Matthew 7:13). Few will find it … (and Jesus was referring to those who claimed to be right with God when He said ‘many’ are on the wide road that leads to destruction.
Don’t take this lightly.
My comments: Doing the will of the Father in terms of receiving the free gift of eternal life, means believing in Jesus as Savior.
John 6:29: Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Submitting to Christ’s will and authority (obedience) is not a requirement for receiving, nor retaining eternal life. If it were, what standards would one use for determining how much obedience was required? And, how could anyone have assurance that they had been obedient enough to gain or keep eternal life? The Bible teaches that we receive eternal life when we believe in Jesus as Savior. And, that once received, eternal life can never be lost or forfeited.
John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
The gate is straight and the way is narrow that leads to eternal life. It is not hard.
Matthew 7:14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Jesus is the straight gate and the narrow way.
John 10:9: I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Eternal life is received by those who have believed in Jesus alone for eternal life, apart from their works or obedience.
The wide road that leads to destruction includes the false gospel of faith in Christ plus works for eternal life that the original commenter is teaching.
Finally, faith is not part of the gift of God. Whether or not one has believed in Jesus as Savior is the sole determinant in whether a person spends eternity in heaven or in hell. If faith were the gift of God, and not everyone has it, then God would be purposely relegating those from whom he withheld faith to an eternity in hell. And, it would follow that every decision a person made was orchestrated by God, making God, not man, responsible for all of man’s actions. This is not what the Bible teaches.
The Bible teaches that eternal life, not faith, is the gift of God.
Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I just picked up this “gem” from an article by Matt Moore in the Christian Post:
Striving to turn away from sin is not an optional aspect of faith; it is inseperable from saving faith.
My comment: Striving is a work. We do not receive eternal life by works, but by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
“It is well with my soul”. My appreciation for the grace in that hymn is renewed. When I search for covers, half the results are Hillsong and Bethel, yikes. I have better luck with foreign language versions. And I find the East African tune catchier. Salama rohoni is my guilt free philosophy.
Thanks for your encouragement, Holly.
3 months ago, I left this comment on Youtube: “I liked your answer. Said appropriately. My feelings exactly, and I don’t like TB Joshua at all. I agree, Jesus is sufficient. There are very few preachers that I like, and I have some of them on my playlist”. Adeola had said that Jesus is sufficient and has never disappointed anyone, and that she was not recommending any prophet or preacher. And two weeks ago, I received the notification that she loved the comment.
In the last two months, two other comments of mine received similar responses from their videos’ authors.
May your efforts will Ron’s tract and your words be multiplied Jason.
Jason, very interesting!
Here is something interesting. Brett Kavanaugh tweets a funny reflection on what LGBT and normal people think are God’s greatest gifts. My reply is one word: Grace. Recently, I pinned a tweet linking Ron Shea’s tract in two languages and a resource page of my own. And just today, Brett liked the reply.
Kate – I am in awe sometimes of the people who claim they believe salvation is not of works, and turn right around and declare someone needs to turn from sin, or stop this, or promise that, etc. It’s so baffling that they don’t hear the conflict in their own words.
But people are so used to parroting the words of ‘scholars’ and ‘princes of preachers’ and ‘famed authors’ that they don’t really even grasp the fact that they aren’t even loving, knowing, studying, storing up His Word in their heart. It sickens me for them, for those they deceive and for all who will be lost because of that deceit.
Kate, I think you’re right. Religions (which are false and man-made) are all works-based.
As I rest more and more in His grace I see the belief systems in two categories; Grace or Works. It seems to me that all other systems, besides Christianity (and I mean true Christianity as being saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone), are works-based in some way or another.
Maybe that is the cynical side of me.
Idk.
Thanks for reading,
Kate
Christina Grimmie sings “In Christ Alone” beautifully. The song is clear on the gospel. Unfortunately, her church’s website lords it up as usual with the repent of sins monkey business. Fellowship Alliance Chapel is in the same town as the Baptist church that I attended for 8 weeks and left because of romans road heresy. Christina was also tragically murdered two years ago. Her song was shared by a friend who is very busy but recently loved a Youtube comment in which I had shared the gospel.
I wonder if most of these disappointing statements of faith were tampered with in the past ten years. It was much more common in the 80’s to hear a clear gospel preached.
Jason, we see people of all political stripes trying to co-opt the Bible for political gain.
Unfortunately, LS is very common among professing Christendom across by the political spectrum.
Last weekend I was at the #walkaway rally in DC. At the end of the demonstration, I interviewed with one of the leaders, never got the name. He recorded with a device. His T shirt displayed his love for the gospel. My T shirt showed off some of my weird side. So I shared that I was saved by grace through faith. He agreed. But he had to add repentance. He obviously has sin as an object. His shirt did not tell me he is LS but words betray him.
I used the movement as a reference point. Brandon Straka says it is about unconditional acceptance. If we who are evil know how to accept one another from various walks of life, how much more does God accept us through faith? But he was no ears. LS is fake tolerance far worse than the left.
I have yet to stumble across the recording on Youtube.
Jason, I saw that story. I think it was a non-RCC Church, but the narrative to the story was similar to the RCC miracle-oriented stories that punctuate the news sites.
The Drudge Report tweeted a fake news story about a picture of Jesus that miraculously survived a church fire. I thought Drudge only did politics. I don’t need miracle oriented, RCC pandering fake news. What I need is grace.
Jason, I am very pleased to hear that.
It looks like my friend and I are back on the same page. Your prayers worked. Thank God.
Jason, I agree with you that a clear Gospel presentation is essential.
I suppose a leprosy victim has no chance, either.
When I talked to my friend, he was unclear. He said that works are necessary “in salvation”, with stress on the preposition. It seemed that he was trying in his own way to say that we should do good works, but he was not able to achieve clarity. I told him that his friends would be confused and not blessed. He had told me he avoids church like the plague. I told him that his friends will inevitably interpret his words through the LS grid, and their confused minds will process the same message they heard in the pastoral swampland. The conversation trailed off here.
An evangelist wins on the clear gospel. It has been my recent experience. But most preachers prefer mush. Sometimes a bad lawyer is clearer than a good pastor. It is a sad day when it happens. Galatians 3:1 beats LS any time. Who has bewitched them? As usual, it is the puppets in the pulpit. The jungle is full of them.
Jason, sorry about your friend, I can certainly relate. One woman did the same. We even talked, she agreed repentance did not mean turning from sin. But on another post on her wall she contradicted what she previously said. Some just will agree with what people say to shut them up and/or they are like those who ‘sneak in’ (Gal 2:4-5). What is a ‘genuine turn from sin’ anyways?
As for the one that said artificial hair could make someone miss heaven? How ludicrous… I suppose a cancer patient doesn’t have a chance in this person’s world.
Praise the Lord that we know these things, these judgments, are rules and regulations of men and not what we must do to be saved 🙂
Chas, you are right, the protestants are moving closer and closer to Roman Catholicism. A police show my husband had on, had a policeman appealing to a criminal that maybe God was giving him one last chance to repent. I had to kind of smh, knowing at that moment, this is not a colloquialism in the world today, yet, because of street preachers and signs, the world understands the world to mean ‘turn from sin’. And we know until we die we have a chance to repent. But I found it interesting a Roman Catholic on T.V. was using the word and Hollywood was o.k. with it.
Jason, it is terribly sad when someone with whom we have shared the gospel and who appears to understand and believe it then undermines the gospel with LS teaching.
I have prayed for your friend.
When friends let you down.
I had shared the gospel with a friend. My sharing included Shea, Bowen, Holly, and this site. He agreed and gave me likes. He said I was a blessing to others. He even said I was a preacher. I politely disagreed.
And he posts this on his wall:
“You claim to be born again????
how many needy people have you helped?
If none then you are a liar go back to the cross?”
I replied: “I have shared the gospel and blessed you. Then I read this? I am disappointed. Helping the needy and a genuine turn from sin are works”, and gave the sad face.
Another post of his defined repentance as a “genuine turn from sin”.
Another from awhile back said that makeup and artificial hairs could cause you to “miss heaven”.
I am saddened to hear about things like artificial hairs and the bleaching of the skin, but to throw LS into the mess is the worst insult ever. Repenting of real and imagined sin continues to cause corruption to the truth all around the world, which a Trump in every country cannot fix.
Jason, mormonism is false doctrine that incorporates works for eternal life, among other errors. That was a very interesting quote you provided from the commenter, who left out the word “believe.” That’s a very significant omission.
I saw this on the comment section of the song “We All Bleed the Same” (healing America version) by Alex Boyé:
“We all bleed the same and sin the same so we all. Need repentance”
The comment was ok until the last word. It is so LS. All who read it interpret it through a LS grid because it is so pervasive.
Another commenter replied:
“Finally someone who said the Truth! Thank you for speaking it. Yes God loved us so much that He sent his only Son that we might not perish but have an everlasting life. Amen”
She missed the contradiction and misquoted John 3:16. Worst of all, she left out “believe”.
I replied to the first commenter:
“Wrong. We need grace alone. Lordship is more hate”
I have experienced it.
The artist is a Mormon by affiliation and immigrated into Utah. That is unfortunate. Mormonism is more LS.
Jason, it is pathetic. People virtue signal on any number of dimensions.
A certain video features some sort of minister questioning a caller because she voted for a certain candidate six years ago. That candidate supported abortion. The host told the caller that (1) she is not a Christian, and (2) he brought up race (theirs) and said that most of “them” hate God. The caller stated clearly that she does not support abortion. The gospel was never discussed.
The fruit inspection is pathetic.
Chas, it can be very draining to try to reason with religious people about the truth of the gospel and the sufficiency of Christ.
All we can do is show them the truth from scripture. I have prayed for your recovery from surgery.
It’s evident that so-called “protestant evangelicalism” is sounding more and more like Roman Catholicism in these end times.
I know I’ve brought up RCC-ism a couple of times in this thread already, but the subject has weighed heavily on me over the last few months. I got a fresh look at the RCC side a few weeks ago as I was drawn into a lengthy exchange with a die-hard Catholic about RCC “authority” and a few of their other dubious claims. I attempted to steer the discussion to a biblically-oriented direction after quoting from the Council of Trent where the RCC dis-fellowships anyone who believes the true gospel of salvation by faith alone, apart from works. (The Council didn’t call what they were condemning “the true gospel” of course, but that is in essence what they referred to as a ground for anathematizing anyone who believes it.) My point in the discussion was that centuries ago the RCC officially separated themselves from the only gospel that saves, thereby pitting themselves against the Truth. Therefore their “gospel” of faith-plus-works is false by their own unwitting admission. That point was missed entirely by the Catholic responding to me. He insisted that the anathema decree “only applies to Catholics” (LOL!), and therefore doesn’t constitute a claim by RCC-sm to be “the only true church”. Vatican II came up, with the person quoting various high-sounding statements from that document in which the RCC tries to sound like it has abandoned any claim to be “the TRUE church” while at the same time using more subtle wording to restate that very claim in effect. Naturally, Matthew 16:18 came up, where any appeal to Scripture and Greek grammar was met with “That’s just your interpretation.” I’m afraid I didn’t do as well as I might have, especially since–in the diversion about RCC decrees and claims–I neglected to call his bluff about Romans 3., which he insisted is only about Paul telling the Roman church they didn’t need to keep the Jewish “ceremonial” law. (Yeah! I know!) I pointed out how he seemed to have Romans confused with Galatians, but he just doubled-down on his nonsense with “that’s just your interpretation” whenever Scripture contradicted his interpretation (which was a lot). There was the usual array of straw men arguments from his side. There were insinuations that I think I’m infallible, “have a lot of nerve”, was being “sanctimonious to the end”, etc. There was a lot of that, which I pretty much ignored in an effort to keep to the biblical points I was trying to make. It was the typical treatment of a believer by a legalist, iow, nothing unusual. But for some reason the whole thing left me very drained, more than it usually does when I’m coming off one of these RCC “encounters”. (Swidt?) I wasn’t at my best (as if my “best” was good enough, which it isn’t). What with the run-up to the shoulder surgery I underwent a couple weeks ago, and with the consequent “medications” involved I still haven’t recovered entirely from that discussion. My consolation is to pray for that individual (and those who “liked” his posts) whenever the exchange comes to mind. (Am I venting again? I guess so, this is the only place I feel comfortable “baring my soul” etc. etc.)
Anyway, all that to say; the legalistic unbelief at the heart of LS, held by the RCC and so many other “Christian” systems of thought (we used to call them “denominations”) is rearing its ugly head with greater and greater clarity and unity between RCC-ism and the supposedly non-RCC camp. The false End Times Church is coalescing right before our eyes. It can’t be very long now.
“Even so, come, Lord Jesus.”
John WI, it does sound like Paul Washer to me also. Sadly, a lot of them parrot each other and so they begin to sing the same old song.
Jason, that is very encouraging.
Last Sunday, I made an interesting friend on Facebook. He was from a foreign country. He agreed with my misgivings about a certain false prophet. At some point, I brought up Expreacherman. I said that I rarely witnessed as much consistency with John 3:16 as I have seen here. He gave me a big thumbs up.
It encourages me when I see grace resonating around the world.
It sounds just like something Paul Washer would spew out.
Pointless, hopeless and false.
They are like dogs chasing their tails until they’re exhausted and then get up and try harder the next time. And teaching all their blind followers to do the same. It’s really very sad.
This guy is a Pastor of yet again another ‘Grace’ IFB church. (That’s why he mentioned those other IFB churches that get it wrong according to him).
He also claims to have gone to Florida Bible, have no idea if it’s true, but if so, obviously he was resistant to the truth.
Hobbs, yes, it is pointless.
The false gospels are often focused on a person’s motive for believing, which is not biblical.
In this case, the false gospel is circular – believe in Jesus to change your life. If your life doesn’t change, you didn’t “sincerely believe.” So, if one wants to maintain the ruse, he has to engage in all sorts of religiousity.
And so they neatly rule out any possiblity of anyone having any assurance.
All a bit pointless really isn’t it?
The institutional church steps in and says ‘follow our rules, we’ll save you’.
Yeah, just the cults.
Holly, this person is basically redefining faith as a desire to be freed from the practice of sin.
The problem with this as the means of receiving eternal life is that it is based on man doing something to commend himself to God. In other words, it is dependent on someone who lacks eternal life deciding that he can make himself acceptable to God by desiring to give up his sins. If the desire to give up one’s sins is required to receive eternal life, than that is merely the desire to offer God filthy rags in exchange for eternal life. That would reduce eternal life to a trade, rather than it being a gift.
The sole basis for assurance under this false gospel would be constant soul searching to make sure one was sincere when he decided that he wanted to stop sinning. This puts it all back on the subjectivity of a person’s feelings versus the objectivity of believing the gospel.
I know the preference here is for shorter posts. But this is what I got in my email today from one wanting my thoughts on this false statement. Maybe could have taken a little more time, but I answered right then.
MORE FALSE ‘GOSPEL’S’ ACCORDING TO THE INTERENET
The preaching of * #REPENTANCE * is the historical position of the church. The denial of repentance and changing it into a new doctrine is the trend of the current church and is rampant among IFB churches. We claim to stand on the old truths, but I defy any IFB preacher to point out a gospel preacher of old who preached these things:
1. You don’t need to turn from sin.
2. Repentance is just a change of mind about how to go to heaven.
3. If you confuse salvation and service people will think they must serve God.
4. Salvation is all about going to heaven, serving God comes later.
5. Preaching that men must turn from sin is a lie of the devil.
6. The gospel of John doesn’t use the word #Repent so repentance is not to be preached to the lost.
7. We teach “faith alone” because preaching repentance as turning from sin is adding to the gospel.
The truth is that not only is repentance from sin the only gospel ever preached, but we can say these things about it:
1. You must turn or burn.
2. Repentance is a change of mind and heart about your sin, and the authority of Christ. You cannot just recognize you are a sinner, you must come to Jesus to be freed from the slavery of sin.
3. People who know themselves to be sinners by the light of the Holy Spirit come to Jesus for a new life of service. They DO NOT serve to be saved, but they do not come to continue in sin either.
4. Salvation is about you and God being reconciled after being His enemy. Therefore, it is the desire to serve Him now by His power AND the desire to go to heaven, having been delivered from sin’s power and penalty.
5. Preaching that men must turn from sin is the only message of the Bible. They need NOT clean their life up to come to God. They must come to Jesus for healing from a rebellious heart, whereby He gives them a new heart and writes His laws upon it.
6. The gospel of John is written to prove the deity of Christ. If you do not submit to the deity and Lordship of Jesus, you DO NOT BELIEVE He is God in your heart, only in your head, just like the devils of James chapter 2. To believe He is truly God is to submit your life to Him. Nothing could be more clear than that you live by the authority of your chosen God. Either you live after the devil, or Jesus. You cannot serve two masters. So if John proves Jesus is the true God, you must submit or die.
7. A faith in Jesus that does not include a hearty repentance from sin does not originate from the Holy Spirit, but from the flesh which will do anything to stay in power. It will even profess Jesus and go soul winning, so long as it does not have to die. This is the place where real salvation meets the real needs of men. They need Jesus to rule them and empower them. Therefore, true salvation delivers men from the power of self, and places Jesus on the throne in the heart where He belongs. Nothing short of this answers the need of the human condition. Men need saving from themselves and their rebellious hearts. Hell is only the just consequence of that wickedness. Therefore, God’s object is not to get you out of hell and into heaven, but to get the devil out and Himself in, so the image of Jesus can be seen in men.
My response:
Here is my answer, but if this were on my wall I’d delete it after I answered.
1. Believers should turn from sin. I defy that person to show where the apostles preached a turn from sin gospel (read all the Acts account, they usually use one, but the point is forgiveness of sins).
2. Repentance is a change of mind about something. The philosophers at Mar’s Hill (Acts 17) ‘ought not think’ that God was made by man of gold, silver, stone. The Jewish Rulers needed not THINK that because they were children of Abraham, they were in. It’s a change of mind of what you previously thought was true, TO a belief of the truth.
3. If you confuse salvation and service – people will think they must WORK for salvation and hence have not been saved. Eph 2:8-9, Rom 4:2-5; 11:6; Gal 2:16
4. Salvation is all about being saved from the wages of sin (eternal death). The free gift is eternal life. Becoming a disciple is a process and happens as we continue in His Word (John 8:31-32),
5. Obviously a strawman argument, we teach that turning from sin is a work. A good work, a righteous thing for believers to do. If we add turning from our evil deeds as a necessity to be saved, we’ve added a work (Titus 3:4-7 – NOT by works of righteousness).
6. This person obviously has no clue about the whole counsel of God. Turning from sin is part and parcel of the whole law. Certain laws are absolutely about turning from sin, Numbers 5:6-7 is just one example of turning from sin in the law although really most of them are.
Conclusion: Adding a work of the law to the gospel is an accursed gospel since no one has ever been justified by the law. (Gal 2:16; 1:6-9)
Followup numbers.
1. He’s quoting Charles Spurgeon not the Bible
2. Chapter and verse?
3. We don’t receive the Spirit until after we believe (Eph 1:13).
4. If it were automatic, the epistles wouldn’t have been very necessary as most are about teaching believers how to do that.
5. While we were YET sinners Christ died for us (Rom 5:6-8) and we know that He quickened us (made us alive) while we were still dead in our sins (Eph 2:1)
6. I taught through John and Jn 20:30-31 tells us the purpose of John. Part of believing the gospel is believing WHO Jesus is, but we believe that He is God. They go further and bring up James 2 and the demons who were never offered salvation (obviously insinuating works for salvation).
7. A ‘hearty repentance from sin’? By their humble opinion? If it were in our ability it would have to be perfect. ‘Jesus on the throne of the heart’ (again, chapter and verse?) I agree we need to submit to God, resist the enemy. Humble ourselves under His mighty hand. We, meaning believers (1 Pet 5).
Anyways, lots of men’s words and opinions with no sound exegesis of Scripture.
Edit:
[Various punches and insults]
My comment: LS is very oppressive. Sad.
The story of Jimmy Taylor, the missionary who was arrested in Uganda, has gone viral. Since he is a missionary, he has a gospel to sell, and I thought it was worth commenting on. When an independent journalist shared this, I was shocked. I am so used to fake news. I can’t help myself.
Some of his comments
“Look at me. Look at Christ who died for you”
My comment: Jimmy Taylor is not Jesus. Jimmy did not die for the sins of Ugandans or anyone else. Jesus warned us to flee these false christs. This is the evil fruit of theosis. Unfortunately, Francis was in no position to take flight, much less to fight back.
“No, you calm up”.
My comment: I don’t know what he means by that. He is drunk. He was rightly told to calm down.
“Repent”
My comment: the tone implies repenting of sins. It is not a condition for eternal life.
“You obey me”
My comment: obedience is not a condition for eternal life, and Jimmy is not Lord.
“I have come to help Uganda”
My comment: no country needs a false gospel or a false christ.
“You disgrace Jesus”
My comment: Jimmy disgraced Jesus with blasphemy, a false gospel, insults, and violent behavior. He showed no grace. Identity politics exists, and so does the real thing.
“You hate yourself. You hate Uganda. You hate Jesus”
My comment: this is pure fruit inspection. No attempt was made to gather facts before hurling accusations. Jimmy did not ask Francis what he believed. This is typical of accusers of the brethren.
“In three days, three quarters of you will die”
My comment: so he thinks he is a prophet. His doctrine already proves him false.
[Various punches and insults]
My comment: the “missionary position” is LS, and it is alive and well. Sad.
Jimmy’s arrest is also circulating. He tried to disarm cops, in reverse Michael Brown style. He should have been shot. Despising government is a characteristic of false prophets (2 Peter 2:10).
The gospel is the good news that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and that eternal life is freely offered, without respect of persons, to anyone who believes. It is none of the above madness. Stories like this confuse people about the character and work of Jesus, and make me sad.
“His mercy speaks only when we are still alive”
That is a clear denial of eternal life. I gave it a sad face.
Phil, I think there’s a lot of that going on.
Unfortunately, I think people are lead to say the magic words like…. confess with your mouth…..call on the name of the Lord….and you wonder if they really know and believe what Christ’s death and resurrection means for them personally.
Where is the gospel believed? One reason I go places on the internet is to find out. I can’t resist. I also like road trips. I was in DC last Saturday.
Phil, good point. People need to hear the gospel message and the only response needed is belief.
I recently saw a film where there was a scene where a woman came forward in this church and wanted to be saved. She was told to confess her sins to God, believe Jesus is the Son of God, and confess him as Lord, and she would be saved. She was not given the gospel message.
I think people are sometimes told what their response should be instead the facts and reasons behind why they can be saved and to believe Christ died for their sins and rose to save them. Instead they focus on Romans 10:9-10 as the go-to, two step salvation passage instead of the rest of what Romans and other Bible passages say about salvation.
Kate, we are glad that you are here, and that you find the site to be a blessing.
The various groups within “churchianity” can usually identify what makes them each unique. What they can’t identify is what makes them all the same.
Hobbs,
Yes and Amen!!!
Johninnc,
I would always ask church elders, as well as peers, what exactly made Christianity different from all other religions, including RCC. The answers were always in the vein of “They worship false gods; They worship themselves”. Even in my fog while laboring under the delusion of the false gospel I could see that something was wrong in Churchanity.
I am beyond grateful that I landed here. Since coming here and understanding the real Saving gospel the intrusive thoughts that fed my religious OCD (also called scrupulosity) have decreased to almost none. All the anxiety and depression which caused so much ” fear of the unknown”, to quote Hobbs, is no longer running my life. And when I do have moments of weakness and uncertainty, moments of doubt, then I rest in the assurance of eternal life given freely by my Maker because of Grace alone by Faith alone through Christ alone.
The meaning of freedom in Christ always seemed to be obscured in my mind. That is no longer an issue. His yoke is light.
Anyway. Thanks for reading my ramble. I know I don’t comment often, many times I want too but my biblical understanding is not near on level with the regular commenters here.
Thanks again.
This site and all of regulars were a God send.
Kate.
kate, I agree with you. The man-made religions are all the same at the core.
And, many of the same people who won’t even tell you the correct way to have eternal life hold themselves out as “life coaches” through their books and articles.
Jason, she may not be in that book, but she is well-documented as a false teacher.
Hobbs, yes, what a relief!
The fear of the unknown. Will I have a nasty surprise when I die? Have I done enough good in my life to ‘appease the gods’.
How could anyone ever know on that basis?
Faith is the only connection we have with the next realm.
‘For by grace are ye saved through faith…’
Phew, what a relief.
Jason65,
I think they are all the same. They can package the product differently but it all boils down to works for or evidence of salvation.
It is grace plus works no matter how you slice it. And by reading casually on other religions it is still the same message of “Save Yourself by Your Own Good Deeds”.
The religions of man are always self-centered.
Kate.
Oops, Bowen does not mention Meyer. There is nothing like a good old Mandela effect to throw me for a loop, lol. All these false teachers seem the same.
Holly, yes, it is a ludicrous statement, and it would be considered comedy if it was said by someone that was mocking the church. But unfortunately, they are serious.
Johninnc, yes, Billy Graham certainly was a false teacher, and his son, Franklin, is just as bad.
Shane, I’m sure your laughter was like mine. Yes contradiction for sure. When it said ‘interior contradiction’ I thought of inward wolves. They just won’t believe the Word of God and corrupt minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Still shaking my head at how ludicrous that statement below is….
“Salvation includes being accepted just as you are, when you turn from your sin”.
Shane, you are giving your friend sound advice.
It reminds me of the Billy Graham events using “Just As I Am” as their signature song.
Johninnc, I’m tired of the chew the meat, spit out the bones (or don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater). They are advocating that you literally take doctrinal teaching from one in error contrary to what the Scripture says.
I looked up the doctrine of a church for a friend in a city where I used to pastor. When reading it, I just had to share with you all here, one of the most funny statements on salvation I’ve ever seen. It includes an interior contradiction. What is an interior contradiction? It is a statement that contradicts itself, like this one: “Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is never alone”.
So here’s the one they put in their statement of faith: “Salvation includes being accepted just as you are, when you turn from your sin”.
That’s a new one for me. I can be accepted by Jesus just as I am, so long as I sufficiently clean up first. Too funny!
Needless to say, I will be telling her to avoid that place.
Jason, I’m not a big fan of “chew the meat, spit out the bones.” The Bible says “mark and avoid.”
I saw someone share a video of Joyce Meyer that she thought was uplifting. When people post these things, I do not know if they are spitting out the bones or swallowing whole or are ignorant of the full range of their teachings. I would rather put warning labels, or better yet, not share at all. In response, I shared the Bowen book, referenced the section on Meyer, and expressed my concerns. Most seriously, Meyer is LS.
Jason I am sorry you lost your friend. I’m not sure he was clear from the beginning, but if so, I pray he comes out of bondage.
Holly, I took a look at some of those comments and responses today. That poor guy is really carrying a heavy burden.
John, I have a commenter over on my article on Paul Washer who doesn’t undertstand the same (eternal life is just that).
I’m not going to entertain more of his comments (I re-read your guest guidelines – good rules which I will use as my own guideline at my site). But I did enjoy answering some of the typical junk they use to try to prove you can lose everlasting life.
How sad of an existence that is. And how awful of an eternity if they do not come to a knowledge of the saving truth.
A couple of comments today from an article on a pastor who committed suicide:
He’s not with Jesus though, suicide is a sin so he’s with Satan.
My comment: This commenter does not appear to understand the gospel. A believer in Christ has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited. If the pastor ever believed in Jesus as Savior, he is with Him now. If Christ died for our sins, that includes suicide. If a person believes that he will end up in hell if he commits suicide, then he doesn’t believe that he has eternal life.
Instead, he believes that he has contingent eternal life, conditioned on his work of not committing suicide.
Depends. For example, a soldier in battle jumps on a live grenade thrown by the enemy is a hero going to heaven for sure…even if he saved no one and wanted to die.
My comment: This commenter also seems to believe that eternal life is conditioned on works. If the soldier in that example had ever believed in Jesus as his Savior he would be going to heaven for sure. If not, even if he saved an entire division by his heroic act, he would not be going to heaven.
I am sorry. I couldn’t help myself. Losing a friend that I grew close to over six months was painful. I don’t intend to start a discussion. I respect your decision.
Jason, as you know, we do not teach the spiritual death of Christ at ExPreacherman.
However, comments on this issue were officially closed by the late Jack Weaver, and by Bruce and Jack collectively (please see links below if you are interested in those previous discussions).
I would ask that we not rehash this topic again.
I just lost my friend to that teaching. Sad.
Jesus Died Spiritually heresy has missionaries. Burnt offering teaching is popping up in divers places. Sad.
Jason65, in love and no condescension, just concern, don’t spend very much time on the counterfeit. Not enough time in the day to learn all the wisdom found in His Word.
That’s true, because every ideology out there has its pet sins, and their base is like, repent of them or burn in hell. Sad. LS goes against the feel-good therapy of many of these groups, but they dish it anyway.
I think I got Tucker and Jeffress confused, lol.
Jason, the news sources and political channels promote LS, because it is so popular with their bases.
Following news and political channels can get you mixed up with false gospels. Tucker Carlson teaches LS.
I have listened to number of African sources, out of curiosity, and I had the misfortune of stumbling upon Dr Mumbi. Her news is interesting to me, but she promoted a prophecy of Myles Monroe, who I know raises many red flags. She is not clear on the gospel herself, since she always teaches discipleship and never salvation. I have yet to stumble upon her gospel. When explaining the meaning of Christmas, she mentioned the sacrifice of Christ but did not say what it means. She omitted to mention that it gives eternal life to the believer. She is not explicitly LS, but the problems with what is left unsaid are huge. Even if the Monroe prophecy of Africa’s rise comes to pass, God did not send it.
It is ironic, but just the cares of this world. One need only to watch any television show, news channel, series, etc., and you would generally easily find one of a few things:
1. Propaganda of some kind
2. An Agenda against believers
3. A worldly foretelling of future end times events
4. Common ground with loadshippers in that man is somehow the savior in the story.
Jason, very ironic.
That same commenter who was justifying Trump on the basis of a false gospel now brings up the Rich Young Ruler.
He said: “show me your fairh without works, and ill show you the President’s Faith by his works. What did Jesus tell the Rich Younger ruler to do? Nothing? Or did He tell him what to do to get to Heaven?”
I am like, Trump did not sell all his possesseions. If he really believes that, he should espouse liberation theology. It follows. Nothing is sillier than right wingers with leftist false gospels.
As if flat earth madness weren’t enough, Q gets thrown into the mix. The #walkaway movement is enticed into the trap. The latest prophecy is the arrest of Hillary. The obsession with codes is indistinguishable from astrology. Are they reading too much Snicket? The video, QAnon Is Dead, puts the jig up. Distraction is part of divide and conquer. Back to the gospel. Jesus died for all my sins so that I may live. If I know nothing else, even so, it is well.
Johninnc – I can relate to the ‘too easy’ or ‘too hard’ but their ‘too easy’ is to just be a disciple, do all the things he commanded. (One told me all the acts and works of disciples was the ‘gospel 101’). He did make it easy, but they corrupt minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Holly, these videos are not about the gospel but about politics. I do not expect the gospel to be mentioned. But in the comments, these false gospels rear their ugly head.
Holly, I know. I’ve been told that I make it too easy and that I make it too hard. I didn’t make it anything. It’s the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Johninnc, that last comment you posted, that I missed, it is just heartbreaking at times to see people get the gospel wrong, over and over, and think they can ‘achieve salvation’ and if you dare point out that isn’t what the Word teaches, it is you who are being ‘nitpicky’.
Jason, what I always find very telling on those videos is they don’t mention the gospel at all.
And the conditions they are mentioning about righting a wrong can be seen in multiple aspects of the law. And we know the law never made anyone righteous. They are so ME-centric, it doesn’t dawn on them the obvious. They are talking about what they must do to be saved, as as you noted, they rarely mention the only condition and if they do, we know they always add works to it.
Jason, you are correct that neither asking for forgiveness, nor correcting wrongs are conditions for receiving eternal life.
This comment was on the youtube channel Kevin’s Corner: “Kevin, Make a video about the President’s salvation. President Trump said that he did not believe that he needed to ask for God’s forgiveness, and the evangelical community went nuts, but he said that he needed to make right the things he has done wrong. THIS IS REAL SALVATION! I know a lot of people that have asked for forgiveness, but they refuse to make right those things they have done wrong. Just a thought Brother. God Bless Brother Kevin”
And no one mentioned faith. Neither asking forgiveness nor correcting wrongs is a condition for receiving eternal life. The gospel dies the death of a thousand distractions.
Jason, in many cases when the LS crowd talks about celebrities (as well as anyone else)they make sweeping conclusions about whether that person has eternal life.
Like you said, we can’t know, and neither can they.
From a youtube video on Kanye West’s rant: “please pray for this man. Pray for him, that he would have a revelation of who Jesus is. Pray that he would repent and turn from his sin”.
My comment: Kanye was used by the left and is now being used by the changed lives crowd. They do not think he is saved. They think that repenting of sin is a condition for receiving eternal life. That is so wrong. He might be saved. He once confessed in one of his songs: “my momma used to say only Jesus can save us”. The appropriate prayer is: if he is not saved, that he would believe in Jesus for eternal life, and, if he is saved, that he would have peace and boldness to speak the truth. Now they inspect his fruit and say that he is still lost. The lordship plantation is a dangerous state of mind.
Brother James Key. Breaking: Q identified, QAnon exposed.
In this video, James Key is full of intimations of salvation by works. He is constantly boasting about what great love he has for the Lord, and saying that we must stay on the narrow way. He is creepy.
Following is a comment I gleaned from the internet today:
However, our God is a merciful one. Should they decide to repent, follow in the footsteps of the LIGHT OF THE WORLD, they can achieve salvation. Jesus refuses to give up. We have but only open the door to our hearts and let Him in and take control.
My comment: Our God is merciful. He provided completely for our salvation by sending Jesus to be our Savior. On needs only believe in Jesus as his Savior to receive eternal life. We do not “achieve” eternal life. We receive it by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. One does not have to “let Him take control” to receive the free gift of eternal life.
Jason, that is a very apt depiction.
I seems that faith, in Catholicism, is a gift received through sacraments. Sad.
Chas – it’s true, they don’t consider the ‘how much’ or ‘how long’ or ‘how sincere’ that can go on for that lifetime of perseverance. But similarly to the Catholics, they can’t really say they’re ‘saved’ yet. For them it’s presumptuous to do so.
I ran across a Roman Catholic article recently and surprised to see it’s identical nature to the doctrine the Calvinists teach of the gift of faith and the gift of repentance. There was nothing on the article that a hard core Calvinist couldn’t have written, yet just like the Calvinists, no good Biblical proof, just proof texting (as in repentance given to the Gentiles or repentance and forgiveness given to Israel) as their proof.
#3, the “confessed Jesus before men” requirement always made me wonder, “How many times? Just once? Once a day, a week, a month…? How many people a day do I hafta witness to for me to be really saved, HUH?”
At least the RCC has demands that are specific: Confess sins to a priest and receive the Eucharist once a year, minimum, attend Mass every Sunday (and “holy day of obligation”). Of course, the “good deeds” part is kinda open-ended…
Hobbs – you asked, why not just rest in the knowledge that God is faithful to save us?
I’ve asked that many times over the year, or why they preach Calvinism vs. Christ and Him crucified, and I’m afraid they haven’t come to that knowledge (that it’s God who is faithful) because they just don’t believe it. Or have become bewitched, either way we know they espouse a false and powerless gospel.
Johninnc, I still marvel that people want to make a doctrine over a couple unclear verses used without context and witness from the rest of His Word. Whether it be repentance and faith being a gift bestowed upon a few, or confessing publicly in order to be given the free gift, or turning from sin, or becoming baptized, etc. They are unwilling to consider the other passages and I can’t figure that out. Afraid? Proud? Steeped in religious tradition? Or is it just the religious/carnal feeling of belonging to a certain sect?
I find it sad for them, but I continue (as you do) to speak the Word in the hope and prayers that they might somehow take heed.
Holly, I had told my wife earlier today that this sounded like Church Of Christ.
Johninnc
The person/group that explained how to become saved and stay saved sounds like Church of Christ or the like. They cannot ‘know’ as they suggest, there is no way they can know by their carnal standards.
Following is a false gospel message that I found today in an internet comment.:
The gospel invitation:
1. Heard the word
2. Believed the word Romans 10:17
3. Confessed Jesus before men Matthew 10:32
4. Been baptized for the remission of sins Acts 2:38
and if so
5. Are remaining faithful James 1:12-22
The events in this word will continue until that final day, the question is, are you prepared? When you pass on, are you ready? You can be!
My comment: Neither confessing Christ before men, nor water baptism, are required to receive the free gift of eternal life. And, it is God’s will that Christians be faithful. However, it is not an automatic consequence of believing.
This internet commenter is trying to evangelize, but sounds like he needs to have the gospel explained to him by someone who clearly understands it. If this commenter has never believed in Christ alone, apart from works, he is not prepared.
Yes it seems so convoluted to go into all the ‘God gives me the determination to stay faithful’. Why not just rest in the knowledge that God is faithful to save us. Again, the simplicty that is in Christ. It’s like a fear of simplicity, e.g. ‘you can’t say you just have to believe and you’re saved’. Actually the guy did start to say that elsewhere…. but, but… then he went and added ‘and confess with your mouth’, which he describes as God always requiring an ‘accompanying action’. Yes, we get it, add some work and a whole host of other requirements until our assurance is in shreds….
Hobbs, Romans 7 describes our fate in the flesh well and so by God’s standards, we fail.
Hobbs, that is a very good example of the confusion out there. Essentially, this person is saying that God has empowered him to keep himself saved (that is, work his way to heaven) by his determination to stay faithful, which is appropriated by faith. Very mixed up.
Actually, no, on second thoughts…. I’ve never believed I was saved on the basis that I have ‘determined that I am going to remain faithful’. A silly attempt at humility on my part.
This is from someone’s facebook video, a guy who’s actually been a Pastor much of his life:
“If you want to know the truth about what I believe about eternal security, I am eternally secure. There is no way that I can lose my salvation. Why? Because I have determined that I am going to remain faithful. Now, it doesn’t depend on me, it’s the grace of God that brings salvation to me, and it’s by faith I appropriate His provision so that I am a born again son of the Living God and I am on my way to heaven. And there’s no way that I am going to throw this thing away. Halleluijah! So when He convicts me of sin, I quit sinning, when I do something that’s not pleasing to Him, I stop. If I do commit a sin, if I do something that I know I shouldn’t have done, I immediately confess that, and put it right.”
My comment: I feel this epitomises what ExP is trying to correct; confused people thinking they can help save themselves. (Not that I wouldn’t have been just as muddled a couple of years back!)
I agree about both comments. There seems to be no end to the subtleties of error.
Following is an excerpt from a comment I read today, along with one of the responses to it. My comments, to both the original comment and the response, are in bold parentheses.
Excerpt from original comment: Habitual sin, however, is you choosing to be separated from him for eternity.
(My comment: habitual sin is not choosing to be separated from Christ for eternity. People who believe in Jesus as Savior have eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited, whether or not they sin habitually.)
Response to original comment: You are wrong about habitual sin. All sin can be habitual. What God requires of believers is to be at war with their sins, which is a wholly different attitude than accepting sinful behavior as one’s chosen lifestyle.
(My comment: Being at war with one’s sins is not a requirement for receiving, keeping, or proving that one has received eternal life. It is God’s will that believers not let sin reign in their lives, but it is not required for eternal life.)
Jason, martyrdom, like any other work, won’t get anyone into heaven.
I didn’t wish to revisit this topic again, but that heretical article proves that this false gospel is being used by the perveyors of LS generally and not just a few fringe groups. It is used at random. They usually assure you that if you aren’t practicing sin, you are ok. But sometimes they turn up the heat just to scare you, and they stay out of the kitchen themselves. The article was called, “I Hope My Son’s Life is in Danger”. What a murderous thought!
Jason, agree. Being martyred has nothing to do with receiving, keeping, or proving that one has eternal life.
In fact, believing that one must agree to martyrdom to receive, keep, or prove that one has eternal life is not consistent with believing in Christ alone for eternal life.
It is a sad possibility that someone who has never believed in Jesus as Savior could become a martyr for a false gospel.
The “Gospel Coalition,” is a Calvinist/Lordship “salvation”/ecumenical monstrosity that is actually aligned against the gospel.
From the Gospel Coalition:
“When my son posed his question before dinner, I was tempted for a moment to comfort him by saying that he may not actually die for his faith. But that’s not what the children who saw Christ die on the cross would have understood. And that’s not how Jesus talked when he said things like, “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you [on my account]” (Matthew 5:11). There is nothing more eternally healthy for the imagination of a young boy than to hear these words and place himself in the drama of Scripture. The same young imagination that may at first fear death, when captivated by Christ will remember these words and the breath of Jesus that lays low his enemies. In fact, we will know our children believe Jesus’ promises about heaven when they believe Jesus’ promises about now”
My thoughts: that contradicts the testimony many funerals. Some die for him, some don’t. Nothing is more healthy than simply knowing the gospel and believing in it. The false gospel of dying for Jesus is not what the thief on the cross understood when he saw Jesus die a few hours before him, as I would suppose under the condtions. The thief died for his crime, but Jesus died for the thief. This is not what Nicodemus understood either. He avoided persecution but understood that he was promised eternal life. And no one practices the martyrdom gospel. They use it to give us false guilt. That is what I experienced with Wurmbrand. He himself ceased to practice this when he came to America and founded VOM. This article intimates that salvation is a trade. Withstanding persecution earns a reward, but the martyrdom gospel is just simply LS with the most stringent standard imaginable.
Just wow. Now I am utterly convinced that Calvinism is new age.
Jason, that is interesting. There is a pretty good section on grace at the old Clear Gospel. Please see below:
http://old.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=8
In the comments on a Facebook group post, I saw all sorts of confusing definitions of grace. The definitions included: a principle, an influence, a thing that teaches, a voice, the Holy Spirit. The OP asked for a definition, and some of the ansers given were true statements about grace (it teaches us to deny ungodliness) but not its definition (unmerited favor). Others stated that faith is a gift.
Agree. My mom is currently affiliated with Methodists, and my sister has a female pastor. It happened due to a confluence of strange circumstances. But the main cause is that our churches got confused. My reaction was to cease to assemble. Theirs was to put up with the confusion. But I have known them my whole life and I have had this conversation with them. That leaves me with a good idea of what they believe. I recently found a church that was clear enough for me, and that makes my family happy for me. My mom even tried it with me on Mother’s day.
My comment on the Kenya site is still awaiting approval. Bummer. I was hoping to reach them.
A comment from today:
With respect to Southern Baptists: None of them are true Christians.
My comment: The Southern Baptist convention adheres to the Baptist Faith and Message, which does not comport with the gospel. However, merely belonging to a church that is confused about the gospel, or is affiliated with a group that is confused about the gospel, does not mean that a person lacks eternal life.
People belong to these groups for a variety of reasons, most of which are not good reasons.
Hobbs – I do the same as you, I think I’m being harsh when I’m protecting the truth, and I have to keep in prayer to not let my emotions (not saying you do) guide my time spent with these types. You want them to know the truth, but many are like the Pharisees of old and have stopped up their ears, some of them murderous in so many ways.
JohnWI, agree!
Hobbs, that person did get one thing right, even though it’s probably not what he meant. He says, “There are many people following Jesus today in an unsaved condition”, which is true and just what Mat 7:21-23 says, because they are trusting in their works and not HIS work. It is finished, AMEN!
Correcting myself again! It’s not ‘harsh’, understanding that is the difference between heaven and hell.
“…paid for all their bad” being just a casual expression of course. Even a person’s ‘good’ is also sin until they trust Christ, according to the Bible. Seems harsh when we think of our ‘good’ un-saved friends. But that’s the book.
Yeah, I guess until they are fully convinced that Christ has paid for all their bad, they’ll keep writing articles to bash everyone else over the head with.
Hobbs, they get assurance from how obedient they think they are, relative to others, or from their own life trajectories (the “I used to’s”).
If we point out that perfection is required to get into heaven, they will say something like “I’m not perfect, but God knows I’m trying.”
“Trying” is a work.
That un-marked grave, err… website I stumbled upon was using the ESV ‘tweak’ of John 3:36 to help qualify this statement:
“We as Christians are not exempt from judgement or from the repercussions of sin. If we are in Christ, there is no condemnation, but if we are deceived by false theology into thinking we are in Christ, while actually living in disobedience, we are in trouble. We are not in Christ and there is condemnation. No salvation. The wrath of God remains on us. False-grace doctrine is eternally deadly. There are many people following Jesus today in an unsaved condition.”
I suppose they’re defining false-grace as licentiousness?
Why they wanna keeping beating-up on grace, for goodness sakes. It’s the only thing that’s ever gonna save them!
Chas, yes, it is amazing, like JMac’s ‘hard to believe’ book. They make it hard, they shut up the kingdom of heaven to men and I completely agree, I once wrote on that very thing (insulting the Spirit of Grace) by their works.
I see you and I were thinking alike on the ‘obey’, good one to add and I agree, they are rejecting His Lordship, that He is Jehovah, the Savior or Jehovah who saves. They are counting on themselves to add to or finish His work.
Virtual venting also 🙂
Hobbs, I tried to take all the loadshippers perversions of Scriptures (and no I’m not speaking of a particular translation) but of their ability to cherry pick Scripture and make the word obey as in salvation mean particularly obedience. And so I went looking for what the Word said vs. what they tried to do in twisting it (satanic) or wresting it to their destruction (those who might be carnal but can’t understand).
Romans 10:14-17 tells us to obey unto salvation is believing His report (God’s testimony of His Son). To obey = believe His report 🙂
Jason, I agree that John 11:25-26 is very clear regarding the promise of eternal life.
I have prayed for these men as well.
From KrazyInsideKenya:
commenter2: “commenter1 what is the narrow gate. Jesus said He is the only gate. The only train you should be telling people is the Lord Jesus Christ not repentance and holiness. Jesus Christ is the only Holy and righteous and everyone who is in Him is counted holy and righteous this is the only truth of God’s word. Telling people to enter the train of repentance and holiness is misleading and not based in the true word of God”
My observation: commenter2 gets it. Repentance (of sin) and holiness (works) are not conditions of eternal life. He correctly states that righteousness (justification) is in Christ alone. commenter1 was defending a gospel that was (counterfeit miracles aside) hardly different from MacArthur’s.
commenter3: “i normally pity the holiness and repentance worshipers. they worship owuor more than they worship God. why do you kneel before the man? he is just another human being just like any of you. in fact you commit blasphemy by revering him that much. read the bible, understand what God needs of you and stop this nonsense of blindly worshiping owuor”
My observation: “holiness and repentance worshipers” is an apt name for lordshippers. Churchianity is full of the reverence of men, both past and current. Commenter3 seems to get it. He went on to mention in a later comment that Jesus gave clear answers. John 11:25-26 is one of the clearest statements of the promise of eternal life.
I hear that Kenya is full of false christs. I pray that these two commenters don’t fall for other traps. I mentioned this site and greeted them with: Mungu abariki ninyi (God bless you).
Chas, good point about obeying the call to believe the gospel.
And, no, you don’t come across as venting.
Holly…
Isn’t it amazing how LSers think that by making grace “expensive” (as opposed to “cheap” or “greasy”)– making an infinitely valuable gift of God into something “expensive” on their corrupt human scale–they have avoided insulting the Spirit of grace? I think many LSers have no sense of irony. I was surprised to find out what a heretic Dietrich Bonhoeffer was. So many “evangelicals” hold him up as such a shining example of Christian dedication.
Regarding John 3:36, I think the main problem with LSers isn’t due to the ESV translation of John 3:36 per se, but that they don’t see that “obeying Jesus” in the context of the Gospel means obeying the call to believe the Gospel. That’s what “obedience to the faith” (Romans 1:5, KJV) is. LSers imagine that they have “obeyed the Son” in some conveniently-defined sense, “qualifying” them for salvation (and giving them a scale by which they can measure others). They don’t see that by their stubborn insistence on adding a requirement to the Gospel, they are not making Jesus their Lord, but just the opposite; they are rejecting His lordship. More in-their-face irony which they don’t get.
John…
Great point about “merited favor”. That’s it in a nutshell. And these same “Reformed Protestants” and “Evangelicals” will hoot and holler about the RCC’s false gospel, all the while proffering their own brand of the same thing. No wonder the Vatican is having such an easy time scooping the “lost brethren” into the RCC.
Do I sound like I’m venting? I guess I am. Sorry.
Hobbs, I try to avoid the poison as well.
That’s a really bad translation of that verse.
John, it’s probably best I just regard that stuff I read as poison and let it go. Guess it’s a lot about making a decision on where one stands and not wavering (easier said than done at times). Anyway, the guy was quoting the ESV perversion of John 3:36, where it changes ‘he that believeth not the Son shall not see life’ (from the KJV) into ‘whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life’. Says it all really.
Hobbs, I don’t recall having heard that exact term. Since grace is “unmerited favor,” I suppose false grace would be “merited favor.” But the enemies of grace usually don’t have any problem with “merited favor” (salvation by works).
‘False Grace’ is one I heard the other day, guess it’s nothing new to people here? So there I go, googling ‘false grace’ like a lamb to the slaughter, knowing just what I’m in for…. and yep, sure enough, I get terrorised by all sorts of twisted ways to undermine a persons assurance. Oh well, suppose I’ll recover eventually.
That’s good insight, it does seem sometimes like they think their fruit doesn’t stink 🙂 And they are positive you have none and are licentious. But I know where those accusations come from.
Holly, if I hear someone call grace “greasy grace” or “cheap grace” or any of those types of terms, it makes me think they are uncomfortable with someone who is “undeserving” (relative to them) of receiving grace.
The last article I wrote was yesterday about ‘greasy grace’. That term sickens me. Cheap grace originated from the ‘disciple’ Dietrich Bonhoeffer who didn’t even believe in the Deity of Christ or the literal resurrection or the virgin birth. And this is a man to quote? People are oblivious to the fact people can be disciples and not believers and believers can not be disciples. Yet the famous gotquestions site says this is not possible. It is not a ‘two-step’ process they say. If not, then salvation is a process over time, and they cannot possibly know if they have achieved it.
In addition they define Christianity as a person who has ‘repented of their sins‘ and ‘made Jesus Lord of their life‘.
We don’t ‘make Jesus Lord of our life’, we believe He IS Lord, who He said He is, the great I AM (God, the Messiah, the Savior). Jesus is Lord of even the demons, He is Lord of all, maybe THEY might remember that.
I almost never hear them use the word Savior. They use Lord, they use Master, (as did Judas). But is He their Savior?
Here is one from today, by someone who made multiple comments “defending Christianity”:
You have to be born again that’s what the Lord Jesus said and that mean’s turning from your sins and turning to Jesus for salvation…All other’s is wrong and Jesus is right.
My comment: Yes, one must be born again. But, that does not mean “turning from your sins and …”
This commenter, like so many others, is teaching that Jesus is necessary for eternal life, but that He is not enough. One receives eternal life by Grace through faith in Christ.
Adding the unbiblical requirement to “turn from sins” to receive the free gift of eternal life changes the gospel into a false gospel of works that cannot save anyone.
Also gotcha, Holly!
Holly, gotcha!
Chas, definitely I did not mean to imply that the man who had a false understanding of what he needed to do to be saved was ‘almost persuaded’. 🙂 Just again, wrong identification.
John and Chas, my comment was mistakenly meant to address Ras, not Chas, and the Jewish man not Ironside’s comments at all. Ras, not Chas (hence my confusion) said that he had the gospel down pat (almost). Intellectually convinced of false good news he said, which is where my almost persuaded comment came from. Whether Agrippa was sarcastic or not, I was just using the terminology.
Hope that clears up any confusion.
I admit that I should not have jumped to a conclusion based on one snapshot. That incident with the Jew was too scary.
chas, I think people who become believers are often eager to start associating with other believers, and are not careful to avoid associating with groups who are teaching false gospels, whatever their particular motives may be. In so doing, they themselves begin to tolerate, then accept, and then promote false gospels.
Galatians 2:4 refers to “false brethren,” who came in to fool the real brethren. And, it worked. So, it is impossible to tell which is which.
People who teach false gospels are under God’s curse, no matter why they feel the need to do it. It is irrelevant why they do it, only that they do it.
Here it is May 10, and still my posts of 5/6 and 5/8 have not appeared on that site, nor have I gotten any response to my email. Either something is wrong with my email, or they’re ignoring me. Posts from others have appeared in the thread since, so I know somebody’s checking things.
Regarding Ironside, I did find an excerpt from his personal testimony online. In it he recalls going home from a party as a teenager and deciding to read his Bible;
(Bold, mine.)
No mention of a need for anything else besides faith. Even the “right feelings”. It looks to me as though–after trusting in Christ alone for his own salvation–Ironside at times fell into the trap of adding a certain amount of “commitment” as being necessary for salvation when explaining the Gospel to others. I’ve seen that in so much “evangelical Bible teachering” since I left the RCC back in the ’70s. It’s like people are afraid to tell others about the free gift of salvation in Christ without attaching some kind of qualification to it just to make sure they won’t be teaching “licentiousness”. No wonder so many people are so confused.
MacArthur could quote Ironside.
Jason, based on Ironside’s purported recollection of this incident, he was frustrating grace.
Whether or not he the man ever heard the gospel and believed in Jesus as his Savior, we can’t know.
And, with respect to Ironside himself, we can hope that he had trusted in Christ alone, although we can never be sure.
This anecdote about Ironside tells me that he is as scary as MacArthur. He kept a man out of heaven, and I don’t know if he ever entered himself. This is not a simple case of waffling. When we are in heaven, we will know who the Nicodemuses are.
Chas, I understand what you’re saying, and you may be right. The man may never have heard the clear gospel, due to the unbiblical add-on.
I was having trouble relating it to Agrippa, since the Apostle Paul gave him the real gospel.
It’s also possible that the man heard the gospel from Ironside and believed, prior to Ironside adding the unbiblical part. It’s impossible to know. In either case, Ironside muddied the water with this false gospel add-on.
John…
As I see it, the real issue with the Jewish man in Ironside’s anecdote is that Ironside didn’t give him the true gospel of grace. The man thought he had to “give his heart to Jesus” and then “stand for the faith” to be “truly saved”. As a result, the man knew all about Jesus identity and purpose, but felt he couldn’t rest in the facts of what Jesus did for him because he was told that a “true commitment” is necessary for salvation. It looks to me like a classic case of “Yeah, eternal life is free, but you have to pay for it later.”
It appears my 2nd try at posting in that thread has been unsuccessful. This afternoon I sent the site an email asking why. The owners of the site have responded to me in the past when I contacted them on other matters, so I expect to get something in response.
Holly, I don’t agree that someone who says he intellectually agrees, but can’t “give his heart to Jesus” is only “almost persuaded.”
I also think Agrippa was being flippant when he said he was almost persuaded. I don’t think Agrippa believed either “intellectually” or “with his heart.”
Following is how I interpret what happened with Agrippa:
First, in Acts 26:3, Paul compliments Agrippa for being an “expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews.”
Then, in Acts 26:22, Paul said that he was being tried for “saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come.”
Then, in verse 27, Paul asked Agrippa if he believed the prophets, and then said “I know that thou believest.”
Paul was doing what we refer to as “leading the witness.” Paul knew that Agrippa, being an expert in all Jewish matters, would not disavow belief in the prophets. (Prior to his having become a believer in Christ, Paul, a Pharisee, would never have disavowed belief in the prophets. But, until he became a believer, he inherently was disavowing the prophets by disavowing Christ, of Whom the prophets said should come.)
In verse 28, Agrippa gives his flippant response. My attempt at a paraphrase is a flippant remark by Agrippa in which he was saying “yeah, great argument, you almost had me. Now, let me get on with the business at hand.”
——————————————————————————————-
None of us received eternal life by “giving our hearts to Jesus.”
There is no difference between “head faith” and “heart faith.” If there were, none of us could ever have any assurance of eternal life. It would be a constant introspection of “I know I believe, but did I really put my heart into it?”
Regarding the man that Chas referenced, based on the man’s previous comment (that his confessing Christ would break his mother’s heart), he reminds me more of the believers in John 12:42: Nevertheless among the chief rulers many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
Chas, really sad, reminds me of Agrippa, almost persuaded…
Ras – I agree, we’re really near the end.
Ras, I think a lot of people (perhaps most in professing Christendom) are “intellectually convinced” of a false gospel, even if they say they have “heart faith” (it is often still in a false gospel).
Chas
Years ago I watched a video on Youtube (still there? I don’t know) with a Jewish New Testament scholar (Pinkus Lapid). He had the gospel down pack (almost) but he believed it was a gentile gospel and Jesus was a gentile Messiah. It wasn’t for him/Jews. In other words he was intellectually convinced of false good news. Lapid is dead and gone and we don’t know if he ever came to believe the true good news. We can hold out hope for the Jewish gent you speak of . I think we are so close to the end that the dam is about to burst (concerning Jewish people coming to Christ).
Chas, I have seen at least one example of Ironside using life change as proof of the veracity of Christianity.
I am not sure about Ironside’s overall body of work, but I do not use him as a source for favorable quotes.
John…
No, it sure doesn’t sound like grace, which is why I’m wondering about Ironside. I didn’t expect that from him.
The Jewish man also said told him, “Intellectually, I am convinced, but give Him [Jesus] my heart I cannot.” Apparently, he had been fed the “give Jesus your heart” method of salvation by Ironside. I’m beginning to think that the LS false gospel is more deeply entrenched in the “evangelical church” than I thought.
Chas, it sounds like there are some diehard works “salvationists” frequenting the site you are referencing.
Holly…
The message that the Ironside quote was taken from was a lecture series given by Ironside. I don’t know exactly when the lecture series was given, but the incident itself happened shortly before the 1906 SF earthquake. The lecture was given sometime after the quake.
Btw, my comment uploaded to that blog has not yet appeared. Posts there are subject to moderation, and they don’t show until after they are approved. A couple of comments within the last 24 hours have appeared, so either my comment was rejected, or I mis-clicked and it was never uploaded. On the unlikely event that it was lost, I posted a similar comment about a 1/2 hour ago. We’ll see if it ever appears.
One of the comments that have shown up contained this:
“[Christ] must be above all and we must be ready and willing to give it all up for Him, be it family, house, job, security, safety, esteem, friends, even body and life. That is discipleship and how it is when we have truly given Him our heart and soul.“… (Bold, mine.) They got “discipleship” right I suppose, but note the implied back-door requirement of “commitment” as proof of salvation.
And this:
“I have friends and family too and have shared the gospel with them and for one reason or another, they just won’t come to Jesus the way He requires.” The person seems totally oblivious to the fact that “the way He requires” us to come to Him is with empty hands.
Holly, like I said I am not crusading against beer or wine (neither of which is prohibited in scripture/drunkenness is) nor cigars. I have smoked a few cigars in my time and have drunk more than my share of beers. I dron’t dink anymore (I mean don’t drink) and have not smoked a cigar in about a decade (never a regular smoker but was a regular drinker of beer—lotsa beer). When I did either I never thought I was doing it to the glory of God. I drank to be drunk. When I smoked, I smoked for the extra buzz. But neither vice made me unredeemed or unredeemable neither did they make me “holier”. Am I to think that since I “believe” (use the Calvinist definition) and no longer do such things that I am now (maybe) “saved”? Or do I wait a few more years (and a few after those) to know if I have been given saving faith? Naw, my mind is made up (meaning I believe) that Jesus died to pay for my sin and rose from the grave to give eternal life. I might drink to get drunk again. I might smoke a cigar for the buzz again. I can’t imagine doing so and thinking it was done in the name of the Lord. I’ll know I am running the race backwards (and I might—God forbid—enjoy it).
RAS – what an interesting observation on your part. That totally makes sense to me. As long as what they do they assign to the glory of God, then they are sinless. Really, really interesting thought. I do get doing what we do to His Glory, but I think we’ll find out later some were done more in our flesh. The point is, there is no way we can know for sure which each and every thing, but THEY seem to know that their works are all good. But really how sad and scared they must have been inside, even in their pride.
Spurgeon was the Billy Graham of his day.
Both Spurgeon and Graham preached false gospels.
Those that emulate either in their false gospel doctrine are under God’s curse.
The most popular preachers are just that – the most popular. One does not have to preach the gospel accurately to be a popular preacher.
Apparently Spurgeon has a Twitter account. Can you imagine being so obsessed with a man’s teachings that you create a social media account using his name? Charles Spurgeon (whoever he is) recently tweeted this gem, “The greatest enemy to human souls is the self-righteous spirit which makes men look to themselves for salvation.” Whether the quote is from the real Spurgeon or not the irony is that Spurgeon knew he was elect because he “used to”…but no longer… Talk about looking to oneself!
Chas pointed out Spurgeon’s love of cigars and I have heard him quoted as saying that he smoked to the glory of God. I seen Calvinist’s “cigar and beer” clubs and the men all seem to have “Spurgeon beards”.
I don’t bring this up to crusade against cigars and beer but rather to point out the hypocritical self righteous attitudes we can all harbor concerning our own vices and sins and Calvinism is a refuge for assigning some sins as beyond the capability of the elect while celebrating other vices and indulgences.
Chas, I wonder. Not sure which articles were which with Ironside, some of his earlier stuff, he was coming out of the Holiness/Arminian/loadship movement. Later in life he spoke on repentance not being what people taught it to be. I sure hope he got it right. I’ve enjoyed his ‘Full Assurance’ and ‘Eternal Security’ but it’s been a number of years since I read it, so sure will have to be careful, thanks.
On Spurgeon, he repented later in life about smoking cigars. I read somewhere he quit because he came to believe it was wrong. Here’s what’s funny. If when he realized that he believed it to be wrong, did he harbor that one viper for one or two more cigars? And if he had died in between, would his soul have been sunk?
smh…
Hobbs me too… Spurgeon is a stronghold, so many seminaries tout him as the ‘prince of preachers’ and even seemingly free grace don’t take heed to the Word when they quote him. They assume he was saved, but they don’t ‘prove all things’ and look at his gospel.
He wasn’t JUST a Calvinist. He was a hardcore holiness type preacher. Prove you’re saved or be damned.
Yes, that part makes me mad. They won’t go in themselves, and try to keep others out too. It’s because they’re working for someone else.
When I first ran across Ron Shea it was because I was doing my own research on all the instances of repent. I was looking for a secular example in history, and found Plutarch and I believe that’s how I found Ron and you guys too.
But in my research I found how the word came about from the Latin and the meaning the Roman Catholic church falsely gave it way back when. And so this is why the error is so entrenched within so many false churches.
Spurgeon’s sermons are just like a regurgitation of Pilgrim’s progress. And he’s made twice the sons of hell in so many preachers who also spew out the same false message that will condemn others.
Jason, yes, very apt.
Hobbs, that is why Holly calls it loadship.
chas,that quote from Ironside does not sound like grace. No one has to confess Christ nor be baptized to have eternal life. Who is to say that the man hadn’t already believed unto eternal life?
Holly…
I sometimes wonder how Spurgeon would have reacted if someone with today’s attitude toward smoking had asked him when he would “repent” of smoking cigars.
John…
Besides Spurgeon, I’m wonder about H.A. Ironside. I just read an article attributed to him on another blog wherein he recounts a long talk he had with a Jew who had just heard Ironside speak at a San Francisco mission. Ironside talked to the man for hours, and at last the man said, “I am absolutely convinced now that Jesus Christ was the Messiah of Israel, and our people made a terrible mistake when they crucified Him so long ago.” Then Ironside told him, “I am glad to hear that. Now I trust you will come right out for Him, and by baptism confess His name.” The man then told Ironside how he couldn’t do that because it would “break his mother’s heart” and get him kicked out of his family, etc. Ironside used the incident as an illustration of how some people “love father and mother more than Christ” and implied that the man forfeited eternal life by not loving Jesus enough to leave his family.
I posted a short response, saying that it was too bad that Ironside didn’t tell the man that all he needed to do to be saved was receive the free gift of God–eternal life–by simply believing in Christ’s sacrifice for him; that nothing else was required. The man might have believed right there, and then might even have had the strength to “stand for Christ” eventually (though of course that wouldn’t have been required for him to keep eternal life).
It will be interesting to see the response to my post, which was the first comment.
Hobbs, it makes me angry, too!
As I read the end of that ‘turn or burn’ segment I too immediately recalled the ‘for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men’ verse. I was just going to search for the reference but carried on reading, only to find Holly had already got it. So I have to agree, Spurgeon is making it impossible for people there. And to think I would have just blindly submitted to this stuff before now; it sounds so ‘spiritual’. That sort of oppressive talk can send people to the funny farm – ‘loading men with intolerable burdens’ I’d say! Makes me angry.
Holly, yes! He is setting a condition that no one can really meet.
Notice how he says “the true penitent…” Penitence is not a requirement for eternal life. He has simply added another condition, thereby creating a false gospel.
And, since he was a Calvinist, he preached a false god who would have had to have been the cause of the sin that Spurgeon claims to have so detested.
Spurgeon has done so much harm to the spread of the gospel, and yet he is revered as “the prince of preachers,” and quoted as if he is scripture itself.
These people get these ideas from listening to people like Spurgeon, who Paul Washer often mimics.
From the Turn or Burn Sermon
Besides the fact Spurgeon gets the meaning of Repentance wrong, take a close look at what Spurgeon claims about sin:
If thou dost harbour one of those accursed vipers in thy heart, thy repentance is but a sham. If thou dost indulge in but one lust, and dost give up every other, that one lust, like one leak in a ship, will sink thy soul. Think it not sufficient to give up thy outward vices; fancy it not enough to cut off the more corrupt sins of thy life; it is all or none which God demands. “Repent,” says he; and when he bids you repent, he means repent for all thy sins, otherwise he never can accept thy repentance as being real and genuine. The true penitent hates sin in the race, not in the individual—in the mass, not in the particular. He says, “Gild thee as thou wilt, O sin, I abhor thee! Ay, cover thyself with pleasure, make thyself guady, like the snake with its azure scales—I hate thee still, for I know thy venom, and I flee from thee, even when thou comest to me in the most specious garb.” All sin must be given up, or else you shall never have Christ: all transgression must be renounced, or else the gates of heaven must be barred against you. Let us remember, then, that for repentance to be sincere it must be entire repentance.
Does this remind you of Matt 23:13 at the very end where he says the gates of heaven will be barred against them?
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
Jason, the reason why they don’t talk about what people should do, instead of what people will do, is because they are confused on the matter.
Wow. Indeed, the scripture does not say, “saved people live changed lives”. Instead of saying that, why don’t they just quote Ephesians 2:10 and 1 Corinthians 3:15? Then they can clearly see that saved people should live change lives, and that salvation is not at stake should they fail. But they quote nonexistent scriptures instead.
Holly, exactly!
If the teaching of the Bible is ‘clear’, why don’t they use Scripture in context and let the Word speak for itself?
Excerpt from a comment I read today:
The teaching of the Bible is clear. Many “believe” in the sense they think/say God exists, Jesus is His Son, etc. But, they live as if they do not because they go their own way while ignoring God. The Bible defines itself, it is spiritually discerned by people with the help of the Holy Spirit. True believers live changed lives as a result of their encounter with the Creator.
My comment: the phrase “true believer” never occurs in the Bible. A changed life is not inevitable for a believer.
A person receives eternal life by believing in Christ (alone) as Savior. This does not require “changed lives.” People should never look to changed lives for assurance that they have truly believed.
One has to be perfect to enter into heaven – not just changed for the better. The only way one receives perfection is by imputation of Christ’s perfect righteousness. That comes the moment one believes in Jesus as his Savior.
Jason, I’ll suppose we’ll never know in this lifetime what is true and what is not in the world, since we know who is prince of it right now and the whole world lies in his sway. But the suppositions and imaginations of people are hard to even pass by on social media. They have ‘proof’ that people are reptiles and other stuff I’d rather not even give any time to. It’s just that the ‘Christian’ community is doing the same over things that aren’t there in Scripture or are not cut and dried, but then they have ‘Bible code’ and they make their ‘shows’ and their followers gasp in amazement at what the person found in the ‘code’. Itching ears. Silly people. Very sad.
Holly, I still can’t fathom why anyone thinks Calvinism/LS is good news.
Interesting comments John.
And I always wonder how they know if God chose them (if they really believe what their doctrine teaches – a lifetime of perseverance), or how do they know that they aren’t just deceived by God and his supposed ‘evanescent grace’. What is the point of that? Yet people actually believe that’s true, that God would do that, be deceptive. But then again, they don’t realize they’re making him the god that blinds people from the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ (2 Cor 4).
As for commenter 2, what is his assurance of being saved? That God chose him? Again how does he know? For that matter, how does he know commenter 1 is a ‘brother/sister’? Because by their doctrine they can only know after this person has persevered.
Yeah, it’s amazing what some people will believe. There’s somebody that believes just about anything you could even imagine.
I am astonished at the craziness of Youtube. Until 2016, I never thought I’d live to see the day that a significant fraction of a major social network would take flat earth nonsense seriously.
But this takes the cake. Some Youtubers are so hysterical that they accuse the US government, FEMA, and Walmart of mass slaughter and chip implantation. And I am wondering, where is the global earthquake? Why is America still here?
A couple from today:
Commenter number 1:
Everything happens at it’s appointed time. No human ever converted anyone. God chooses you, not the other way around.
Commenter number 2, responding to commenter number 1:
Amen, hallelujah!
So many deceived by false teachers into thinking that because they “accepted” Him that is their assurance of being saved!
Salvation is all of the Lord!
Great comment brother/sister!
My comment: commenter 1 is seriously confused. Yes, God is omniscient and therefore knows what will happen and when. And, everything that happens, God allows to happen.
But, that does not mean that God chooses, or ordains, everything that happens. If He did, that would mean that He was responsible for sin, and all other human actions. This is an abominable misrepresentation of the character of God.
Commenter 2 also has confused Calvinism with Christianity. God desires that all men be saved. He has provided completely for our salvation, but only those who believe in Jesus as Savior have eternal life. God does not choose who will believe. Commenter 2 thinks that his misrepresentation of God is cause for celebration, rather than being a malignment of God’s character.
The only biblical basis for assurance of eternal life is having believed in Jesus as Savior. Commenter 2 rejects the biblical basis for assurance, with the tacit faux replaceement basis for assurance of having been “chosen” by God for eternal life.
John, the one who was unsure about being full of glee, is probably a response to Paul Washer’s insistence we’ll be applauding, but of course they feel since they were ‘chosen’ everyone is evil.
The other comment on indirect ways to accept Jesus is so reminiscent of Billy Graham. This type of sidestepping and making up their own opinion on whether one is saved by how wonderful they are, is just sickening to me.
So many are deceived by these types into thinking they can be good enough to ‘get there’. Even Billy Graham hoped when he got there that ‘St. Peter would let him in’ (never mind there is no such reference).
The person doesn’t ‘like it when someone takes literal interpretations of the words of the Bible’?
Ai yi yi, the people get more and more deceived. What interpretation would he like people to take? A guess? Subjective opinion? Majority rules? That’s how they operate.
califgracer – great to hear from you again. Hope all is well with you and yours.
Full text of a comment I read today:
but there are indirect ways to “accept” Jesus – if you don’t believe, but act in his image, then you are accepting him indirectly – in other words your heart is accepting him even if your brain is not. I do not like when people take such literal interpretations of the words in the Bible – god does not always take things at face value – if you accept jesus as your savior but you are a horrible person, which do you think god would rather have – a horrible person who believes or a saintly person who does not??? I think we all know the answer.
My comment: According to the Bible, God does not have a preference as to who receives eternal life and who does not. In fact, God wants all men to be saved. But, the Bible is clear that only those who have believed in Jesus as Savior have eternal life. Their behavior has nothing to do with it.
A couple from today:
While I celebrate the consummation of God’s kingdom with you, I’m not sure we should wait with glee to see the wicked destroyed. After all, unless God had chosen us by his unmerited grace, we’d be right there with firm on the receiving end of His wrath.
My comment: God wants all men to be saved. He did not choose some to be saved and some not to be saved. Eternal life is available to anyone by grace through faith in Christ.
“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life.” There is a certain amount of confidence one can have. There is evidence to look for.
My comment: One cannot have assurance, based solely on the word of God, if he is looking for other evidence based in changes within himself. The only evidence to look for is the biblical accounts of the gospel, and whether or not you believe the evidence.
Reminds me of Brennan Manning.
Hi So Cal Exile:
I, too, am a Conservative Christian in So Cal, a state run by leftists (sigh). Re. Steve McVey, I read a couple of his books years ago (one was called, “Grace Walk,” the other, “Grace Land”). I recall some good things in the books speaking out against legalism, performance-based Christianity, compulsory duty based on fear and guilt in favor of experiencing freedom and joy in Christ, similar to Charles Swindoll’s, “The Grace Awakening.” Unlike Swindoll’s book, however, which in places condemned lordship salvation teaching, although he never labeled it as such, McVey’s writing, contrariwise, exhorts Christians to all get along. He claims not to be an ecumenicist, but he makes the following statements in “Grace Walk,” 1995, Harvest House, p. 164: “I am not suggesting that doctrine is unimportant. The faithful church holds to indispensable tenets of belief. However, a grace perspective on the church doesn’t demand that we all agree on every detail of faith and practice. . . . there must be room somewhere within the structure of God’s church for unity among the various members of the ecclesiastical family. Just because another brother may be different doesn’t automatically make him wrong. A grace perspective allows diversity among the family of God.”
I once emailed his organization to get a clarifying explanation on its stance on lordship salvation teaching. The spokesperson who responded had no idea what lordship salvation was.
SoCal, the author of “The Shack” wrote the forward to one of Mcvey’s books.
That doesn’t really commend Mcvey to me.
Please see previous comments linked below:
Thoughts on Steve McVey? He’s got a few books on Amazon about grace, and gets the same accusations from the Lordship crowd that we do.
One from today:
Catholics don’t believe we can “work our way into heaven” without faith in Jesus. But to say that “I can accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior” and do nothing to put that faith into action and be saved is not Biblical.
My comment: I heavily suspect that this commenter means that receiving eternal life requires faith in Christ plus some (unspecified and unquantified) works. That is consistent with Lordship “salvation,” which is a false gospel that acknowledges that Jesus is necessary for eternal life, but does not acknowledge that Jesus is enough for eternal life.
Keith, that’s a very good scriptural reference for what seems to be going on with some of these religious folks.
The reason we featured this article was to highlight what often passes for Christianity online. People will go back and forth defending their faith against detractors, whether or not their comments are consistent with grace.
The zeal that the Calvinist/LS crowd has to make “disciples” or “Christ Followers” reminds me of what Jesus said about the Pharisees in Matt. 23:15:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves”.
Jason, agree.
The most ardent “defenders of the faith” often don’t have any understanding of the gospel.
That comment also ended with two things that are not conditions for eternal life. As usual
Here is an excerpt from a commment I read today:
I’d argue it’s more than just having a relationship with Jesus that gets you saved. Judas had a relationship with Christ, and, well, see how that turned. God gave us specific commands to adhere to, and expects us to use his gifts wisely.
My comment: We receive eternal life by grace through faith in Christ. Nothing more, nothing less. As the commenter aptly pointed out, Judas was a disciple and he did not have eternal life. However, the reason Judas did not have eternal life was because he did not believe in Jesus as his Savior.
Here are excerpts from a couple of comments that I read today:
Commenter number 1:
I’m a sinner, but I believe and I believe I’ll barely slide across the plate if I just keep trying to get through those gates with some spark of goodness that causes me to earn my way.
My comment: This person is confused. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ.
Commenter number 2 (in response to commenter number 1):
It is not a matter of earning entrance into God’s kingdom. But of accepting the grace he has offered through Jesus Christ, receiving the Holy Spirit and doing your part as he will show you.
My comment: “Doing your part as he will show you” is not a requirement for receiving eternal life. If this commenter believes that we receive eternal life by grace through faith in Christ, he should have clearly delineated how we receive eternal life from what God’s will is for our lives once we become believers.
Phil, yes, a treadmill is a good analogy.
And john, How often have we heard church sermons about what we need to do instead of what we allow the Spirit to do through us? A treadmill is a great example of works salvation.
Hobbs, you are right – we need to focus on Jesus. It is the enemy, not God, who wants us to focus on ourselves.
I particularly like Curtis’s expression that he uses often on this blog: ‘the faith-rest life’.
Without faith in Christ and our trust in His finished work alone on our behalf there can be no rest for anyone; we will continually be looking over our shoulder wondering if our works/behaviour are satisfying God enough to let us into heaven.
Peace of heart and mind comes from making our loving Saviour the object of our faith, NEVER our works or behaviour.
Takes a while for that to really sink in, did for me, still is sinking in.
But it’s the most wonderful, surest foundation.
So yup, me too glad that God worked through Jack Weaver to show me the ‘faith-rest life’.
I am glad to be out of the woods.
Afshin Yaghtin has a six hour video that was very interesting. It shows the processes people go through when they come out of false teaching into the gospel. Near the end, they even questioned what it means to be Baptist. Rarely do I see such openness from an IFB group. They made favorable mention of Ralph Yankee Arnold.
kat, we are glad you are off of the hamster wheel.
A Christian is simply one who has received eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The false teachers are everywhere, keeping lost people lost, and trying to put believers back under the law.
As the late Jack Weaver used to say, “the woods is full of ’em.”
Jason, the LS crowd makes regular reference to Matthew 7:21-23 without knowing its real meaning.
Johninnc,
The quote you shared states that True Christians obey the commands of Christ and love the Lord with all of their heart, mind and soul and love their neighbors as themselves.
My comment: True. True Christians do one Christ’s command to rest in Him and his final work not learn and practice the art of being a Pharisee.
I was invited to a women’s conference about being a spiritual warrior. I passed because the course is really about how to be a lawkeeper.
I ran that hamster wheel too long. Now that I am off I will never forget back.
The wheel kept me chasing something I can never have apart from Christ.
I used to think that “true Christian” was implied by Matthew 7:21-23. I thought I had to be one in order to escape this judgement. Oh how I would brood over myself: was I really doing what Jesus said, or was I paying lip service? Armstrong exploited that weakness, as did Wurmbrand, Michael Brown, and all the false teachers. Did he really say to keep the Sabbath, be a martyr, or to disregard everything Paul said about my liberty in Christ? I eventually realized that LS itself says, Lord, Lord, and does not do what he says in John 3:16.
Following is an excerpt from a comment that I read today:
True Christians obey the commands of Christ and love the Lord with all of their heart, mind and soul and love their neighbors as themselves.
My comment: According to the Bible, a Christian is someone who has received eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
The Bible never, ever uses the term “true Christian.”
Brent, your experiences with LS sound similar to mine and other here. The peace and joy of God’s amazing grace to you.
Chas, very good point about the “purpose driven” movement. And, getting people “working together” in the flesh under the guise of “getting busy for God” is very deceptive.
Brent, thanks for sharing!
I am very thankful that you are no longer sitting under LS teaching.
“You gotta get busier” seems to be a mark of LS churches. Not coincidentally, it’s also a mark of “purpose driven” churches. The flesh trying to be “spiritual”, trying to redeem itself.
It wouldn’t surprise me if “getting busy for God” turns out to be the leverage used by the false prophet to rally the people of the world to serve the beast.
Just wanted to stop in and give a word of encouragement toward this site. I visit this site (but rarely comment) often and it has helped me understand one of the most misleading and subtle teachings out there which is LS.
About 5-6 years ago I, by the grace of God, was introduced the errors of LS, which was the teaching I was setting under for the past 10-12 years. When I first started that church, I knew something wasn’t quiet right about the phrase make “Him Lord and Savior.” However, I was clueless to the concept of LS teachings. But I distinctly remember it not setting well within me about that phrase. What most people don’t realize that listen to and encourage LS teachings is that it prevents LOST people from hearing and believing the Gospel. What could happen, is a lost person under LS teaching could possibility jump to “works” to see if they are “truly saved” instead of hearing a clear Gospel message and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Thankfully, I was saved under a non-LS teaching church, however, started attending an LS leaning church a short while after I started college. I was saved but I quickly began questioning my salvation more and more because I wasn’t living up to the “standards” that man placed on me to determine if I was “truly saved.” Ironically, when I was looking to myself for “signs” of “true” salvation, what I was really doing was spending most of my time focusing on myself. But that is one of the subtly of LS teachings. To focus on anything but Christ’s finished work, mostly my works.
Today, I enjoy not worrying about “making” sure I’m saved by my works. I trust in Jesus Christ’s finished work and have the gift of God, eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. I am so thankful for the Lord showing me through my new church, this site, and His word about how to rightly divide.
This site IS a grace oasis and I am forever grateful.
-Brent
Incidentally, David Platt is a graduate of the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary (NOBTS).
John, I agree.
I recently heard a sermon online by Greg Durell, the pastor of Heritage Bible Church in Terrytown, LA, just outside New Orleans. He said that Chuck Kelley, the president of the SBC New Orleans Theological Seminary, allowed the Roman Catholic Archbishop of New Orleans to speak to students at the seminary without offering an opposing viewpoint. The spirit of ecumenism is alive and well in the SBC.
Keith, according to Wikipedia, David Platt is the president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s International Missions Board.
Just wow. How can anyone who understands and believes the gospel have anything to do with the SBC?
Jason, MacArthur is an unfortunate choice for anyone hoping for illumination.
People in my family’s circle of friends are looking for bible study guides on assorted topics, such as women in ministry. My mom had the misfortune of picking out a MacArthur book, forgetting that MacArthur is one of the men who caused me trouble. MacArthur sometimes says insensitive things. I wish people would spend more time on the gospel. I can’t recommend any good books on that other stuff. There are too many bones to spit out. I tried to recommend Secure Forever, but that wasn’t about women. When I tell people that Jesus is not a probation officer, it brightens their day. I think a hundred solid pages on the gospel would do the same.
Keith, Platt’s new book has the same false gospel as his other books.
It will likely become the new go to book for “Bible studies” throughout the land.
Who among us here at expreacherman is going to be the first to purchase the new book “Follow Me” by David Platt? (Sarcasm intended)
The following is a short description of the book’s contents:
“What did Jesus really mean when he said, “Follow Me”?
In this new book, David Platt, author of the New York Times bestselling book, Radical: Taking Back Your Faith from the American Dream, contends that multitudes of people around the world culturally think they are Christians yet biblically are not followers of Christ.
“Scores of men, women, and children have been told that becoming a follower of Jesus simply involves believing certain truths or saying certain words. As a result, churches today are filled with people who believe they are Christians . . . but aren’t. We want to be disciples as long as doing so does not intrude on our lifestyles, our preferences, our comforts, and even our religion.
“Revealing a biblical picture of what it means to truly be a Christian, Follow Me explores the gravity of what we must forsake in this world, as well as the indescribable joy and deep satisfaction to be found when we live for Christ.
The call to follow Jesus is not simply an invitation to pray a prayer; it’s a summons to lose your life—and to find new life in him. This book will show you what such life actually looks like”.
My comment: becoming a disciple or Christ follower requires first receiving eternal life by believing and resting on the truths of Christ’s finished work and His promise of eternal life for all who believe it. Assurance of eternal life is not conditioned on one’s intentions to be a Christ follower or the ongoing acts which should characterize a Christ follower,
Platt seems to invite his readers to receive and have assurance of eternal life by becoming a lifelong follower of Christ, which to him requires forsaking worldly comforts and persevering in faithful service to the end of their lives.
2 Tim. 3:13:
“But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived”.
Jason, the whole thing is a muddled mess.
“It’s not about you”
I really hate that part. Jesus died for you. Of course it’s about you, or do they just not get it? By these words, they intimate that Jesus did not die for you. They exchange the atonement for martyrdom and the gospel for foolishness. Jesus’ feelings are hurt.
Keith, agree that church attendance is not a requirement for proving one has eternal life.
Whoever made the comment doesn’t really seem to understand the gospel.
Saw this on Facebook today:
“It’s not about you!
Being a Christian is not individual-spirituality, self determined service, or rationalized obedience. One of the tests for true saving faith is the desire to gather with God’s people as the body of Christ and serving one another in a local church. To really do this you have to get over your self and the deception that God overlooks waywardness.
Many people think of God in a therapeutic moralistic way. That view of God is idolatry since the object of worship is really you”.
My comment: there is no such thing as “true saving faith”. Faith does not save; the object of faith does. Christ and Him crucified and raised is the only proper object of faith for receiving eternal life.
Lack of desire to gather with God’s people does not indicate that one has not made Christ the object of his or her faith and received eternal life. It may, however, indicate that he or she is not making his or her faith productive and fruitful as God intends (Jas. 2:14, 17; Eph. 2:10).
“which means you try not to sin again”
What a load to bear and what a load of malarkey! God grades on a curve? He imputes perfect righteousness for effort? Trying (and we/he/she will never fail to fail) doesn’t resolve the sin issue nor does it render satisfaction to God. Wasn’t that the purpose of the Law—to show that trying is not gonna cut it?
This is the problem with fruit fads. One person wants to see oranges and another wants bananas. The gospel is what God has received from the work of Christ, that’s the gospel. All the rest of it is fruit of the gospel—oranges, bananas and all! What Christ did on the cross satisfied the very heart of God and we are given the gift of life through faith alone. This is why fruit inspectors redefine faith as they do to always means faith plus…
Excerpt from an internet comment I read today:
Without breaking His own rules, the only way He could save you was by paying the just penalty that you were supposed to pay. To qualify, you need to repent of your sins (not just feel sorry for them, but also to turn away from them) and accept Him as your Lord (which means you try not to sin again).
My comment: Jesus did pay for our sin. We receive eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. There is no requirement to be sorry for sin, to turn from sin, nor to try not to sin again in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. If any of those things were required, then eternal life would not be a free gift, but would be a trade for our willingness to do those works.
The commenter is not teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, but is promoting the false gospel of Lordship “salvation.” This same commenter has made quite a few comments trying to prove the reality of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Unfortunately, his testimony is that he isn’t trusting in Christ alone for eternal life.
Excerpt from a comment I read today:
If you believe, you are saved…but, here’s the catch…if you believe, you wouldn’t wake up each morning with the desire to sin against others. If you believe, while you may not be perfect, you are going to do your best to be a faithful servant of Jesus Christ during your time on earth as a human.
My comment: There is no “catch.” Nor does the Bible guarantee that a Christian will always do his best to follow Christ in obedience. Doing one’s best is a work.
Jason, I have prayed for those who attended the funeral. I am glad that you were able to share the gospel booklet with this gentleman.
A friend of my family recently passed away. I had given him a booklet, and it was discovered lying open at his bedside. He had been a recovering drug addict. At the funeral, they said he was in heaven. I don’t know how clear they are on the gospel, but there are no fruit inspectors at funerals. Bad things are never said. Would that these people were consistent and applied every day what was preached that funeral.
When reading yesterday, I missed the point that the commenter confessed works alone. I agree, very telling.
One today regarding the execution of a condemned murderer:
Original commenter: I bet he’s screaming and thrashing in hell right now, one can hope.
Responder: No hoping needed. HE IS!
My response: Why would someone hope for another person to end up in hell, when it its God’s will that all men be saved? And, how can someone conclusively assert that someone else is in hell, unless the Bible specifically states it for that person?
Keith, I agree.
John, this quote demonstrates that salvation by faith-plus-works, when taken to its logical conclusion, inevitably leads to salvation by works alone.
One from today, regarding the late Billy Graham:
No one can refute the millions upon millions lives that have given their hearts to Jesus by solely listening to this man preach. His good works alone will get him into heaven.
My comment: You just can’t make this stuff up!
No one ever received eternal life by giving their hearts to Jesus. Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Billy Graham’s good works will not get him into heaven, nor help him get into heaven. If Billy Graham is in heaven, it is because he believed in Jesus as his Savior at some point in his life, despite the false gospel of works that he so often preached.
The commenter’s comment reveals a complete lack of understanding of the gospel.
Keith, you are right – the only real assurance of eternal life comes from believing the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement for our sins, as evidenced by His resurrection.
I found this online recently regarding the meaning Romans 10:9, 10. Although the website on which the following quote appears does not necessarily subscribe to the expressed view, it does articulate the common LS (mis)understanding of what it means to “believe in thine heart that God hath raised [Christ] from the dead” in Rom. 10:9:
“There are numerous options given to us by commentators and theologians for the Rom. 10:9-10 passage…When one truly ‘believes with the heart,’ he or she will eventually ‘confess Jesus as Lord.’ This will be the evidence that genuine faith has been exercised. What takes place in the heart in faith eventually reaches the lips. True Christians publicly identify with Christ. In Bob’s case, only God knows whether the faith in his heart was real. If it were, Bob would have confessed Christ publicly had he not died”.
Oftentimes, in Biblical terminology, to “love” a first alternative and “hate” a second alternative is to exercise the will to choose the first instead of the second. In Rom. 9:13, Paul wrote, “As it is written, Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated” to describe God’s choice to select Jacob instead of Esau as the forefather of the nation of Israel. In 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Paul wrote that those who choose to accept the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation will do so because they “received not the love of the truth”. Therefore, those who “receive the love of the truth” will be those who choose to reject the Antichrist and believe the truth of the gospel.
Paul articulated the gospel in 1 Cor. 15:3 and 4: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures…
To “believe in thine heart that God hath raised [Christ] from the dead” in Rom. 10:9 is to choose to believe the truth that the resurrection proves conclusively that Christ paid the full penalty for one’s sins past, present and future. Since the resurrection proves that God was satisfied with the payment for sin’s penalty that Christ made on one’s behalf, the logical implication of such belief is that the atonement made is sufficient and that no additional offering for sin in any form is necessary to either secure eternal life or have immediate assurance of eternal life (Heb. 10:18). The one who accepts the full, once-for-all payment for the penalty of one’s sin which Christ secured, and the proof of such payment which the resurrection provides, has chosen to believe the truth that no further payment in the form of confession, good works, turning from sin, sacraments, animal sacrifices or any other offering is needed for immediate assurance of eternal life. Hence, he or she has “received the love of the truth”, and thus, believes in his or her heart that God raised Christ from the dead. This same idea is conveyed in Acts 8:37, in which Philip told the Ethiopian eunuch that he could be baptized “if you believe with all your heart”. To “believe with all your heart” is to believe that faith in Christ on the basis of His death, burial and resurrection, without any kind of “evidence” or “confirmation”, is sufficient to know that one has eternal life as a present possession.
The one who is falsely converted under and sustains a belief in Lordship salvation or any other system which teaches works for assurance of eternal life, on the other hand, does not accept the implication that the resurrection proves conclusively that Christ made the final and complete sacrifice and offering for sin’s penalty so that no additional offering is necessary for one to secure or have immediate assurance of eternal life. Instead, the false convert maintains the belief that ongoing sacrifices and offerings in the form of a changed or transformed life, being a “Christ follower”, turning from sin, doing good works, etc., are necessary for assurance. Although a false convert may assent to the fact that Christ rose from the dead, he or she has not received the love of the truth, and thus, does not believe in his or her heart that Christ rose from the dead within the meaning of Rom. 10:9, 10. False teachers, in explaining Rom. 10:9, will often say something like “a person’s faith must be ‘heartfelt’, which implies that a certain kind of life will follow a “genuine profession”.
A case in point is John Piper’s commentary on Rom. 9:10, which can be found on his Desiring God website:
Therefore, believing in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead is much more than accepting a fact. It means being confident that God is for you, that he has closed ranks with you, that he is transforming your life, and that he will save you for eternal joy…
According to Piper, one must offer up a continual or ongoing sacrifice or offering for sin in the form of a transformed life in order to have assurance of future eternal life. According to Heb. 10:26-31, the one who labors under such a false belief system can never have any real assurance that he has been delivered from sin’s penalty as he never knows whether he has done enough, turned enough or sacrificed enough to appease or “prove” he has been delivered from God’s judgment. In contrast, scripture promises immediate assurance of present eternal life (John 5:24) to all who believe in the sufficiency of the atonement as evidenced by the resurrection.
One from today:
A Christian is one who has resign from worldly life of sin, has confessed all sins to God and has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. One must believe in Jesus from the heart and not just by saying it. Read the Bible: NOT EVERYONE THAT SAYS “LORD, LORD” WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
My comment: this is works for Salvation, with a lot of yelling in capital letters. According to the Bible, a Christian is someone who has believed in Jesus as Savior. This quote seems to be saying that it’s author doesn’t believe in Christ alone.
I was in a science mood. I went on youtube to listen to physics videos, found one that is four hours long. It was mostly string theory and way over my head. Evolution motivates the money wasted on string theory. Anywho, I checked out the guy’s channel and looked at the playlists. So much was in German. I noticed a playlist on Christianity. I looked at a video on it, expecting the pope, and what do you know? It was Steve Anderson. Can science prove KJV Only? Nope, better luck with string theory.
A fictional character tries to solve the problem of death with magic. In the real world, they make the attempt with technology. Extremely similar. This is called Transhumanism or Kurzweilianism. 1 Corinthians 15:26 comes to mind. Transhumanism could possibly be an aspect of the mark.
John wow. Yes, the problem of sin, death and the grave, all overcome by Him.
There was an interesting article today in the New York Times entitled “The Men Who Want to Live Forever.”
It was about billionaires who are working with biotech companies to extend life and who, as some put it, are “solving the problem of death.”
My comment: This is folly. The problem of death was solved by Jesus.
John 11:25-26: Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Jason, I know what you mean. Some messengers and sites just don’t seem right, and sometimes it’s hard to put a finger on it.
I agree, and I am pretty sure the commenter agrees. It is not just the words that are used by the man who made the video, but also the spirit in which he says them. Both the commenter and I could perceive something clearly wrong. I can empathize with people who are persecuted, just like I can empathize with people who are sick and suffering. But when I hear comments like “not if but when”, I go into introspective mode.
Jason, withstanding real persecution is something that I think would bring eternal rewards, but no one has to do that to prove he has eternal life.
On a spiritually jarring video about persecution, a female commenter had this to say:
“im sorry i dont agree. thats not even scriptural what you just said. not all were called to be preachers, some are mothers without husbands like me. my husband died 10 years ago and if i were going to be killed for opening my mouthand then what happens to my little girl ? rape ? oh no. so you cant sat that in every instance. if i were alone i dont have a problem standing and preaching to anyone. denying him is different. they have you in front of a guillotine yea then its time your going to die then now is the time not to deny him. but to go out and preach to ppl knowing that they will kill you for it is crazy. Now if God Almighty tells me to preach..Then i will preach”
My comment: my sentiments exactly! Persecution has become a loaded term, and relevant scripture gets twisted like James 2. That video made contradictory statements that reminded me of Calvinism. Abraham was not persecuted, and yet his reward is great. Calling petty injustices persecution sounds to me very much like reviling. I want nothing to do with it.
Hixson uses Jesus Paid it All as intro in his Not By Works radio program. Mark Ratcliffe (friend of Holly’s) changed the lyrics of Victory in Jesus by taking the repent of sin out.
The hymn, “Jesus paid it all”.. I am sure was meant to only say that salvation is truly ALL from Christ. I’m sure the writer meant there is no requirement from us, and thus, no way we could ever repay this as ordinary humans.
This song is one my favorite, and only says that forgiveness and salvation are purely an eternal gift. If I were going to scrutinize this hymn then I could end up scrutinizing everything.
I read the lyrics over and I don’t see anything LS in it: it’s pure grace: it’s title “Jesus Paid it all” says it all.
Yes, the song isn’t clear. I picked up on it initially because I sensed it may have been written from an LS ‘backloading’ perspective.
The song does not make it clear whether it is an add-on or a response. The quote sounds like clear LS. Laboring under loadship makes us all understandably hypersensitive. I myself struggle with “Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe”. I think that “owe” is a debt of gratitude, yet I am still uncomfortable. Paid in full means paid in full.
Holly, I’ve just noticed, the verse in that song I found was: love and laughter and joy everafter, ours for the taking, just follow the Master. And for Johninnc’s other recent post he found this quote from Got Questions?: Faith must involve a personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). It is more than being convinced of the truth of the gospel; it is a forsaking of this world and a following of the Master… I’m thinking, at least the song makes a mention of the free gift, the other quote may well just turn people away, tragically.
Holly, I thought the same thing.
After being here for more than a year, I absolutely agree. The contradictions against the free gift are the root cause of all the instability.
John:
//There are many examples of people doing wonderful things in the name of their religion, let’s not forget them.//
I feel pretty sure your mind went straight here:
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matt 7:22-23
What helps keep me grounded is knowing that eternal life is a gift, and not a trade.
A gift is something freely given, without cost or obligation to the recipient.
Grace need never be mixed with insistence on life change of any sort.
Of course, it is God’s will that believers live faithfully. But, it is not a demand for the free gift of eternal life, nor is it an inevitability.
About eight years ago, I considered Wilkinism. Later, an Amazon comment coming from a MacArthurite caused me to waver. Martuneac warned me about Wilkin. Then I was tossed to and fro by Zeller, Got Questions, and Philip B Brown. I also came here briefly and wavered.
Now Brown turned out to be Saturday keeping, and his new wind of doctrine taught that both unbelievers and carnal Christians would be resurrected at the Millennium in order to complete the spiritual journey. This strange combination of kingdom exclusion and second chance had an appeal. This was probably the worst doctrine that tossed me, since Armstrongism.
Meanwhile, Hyles, Anderson and Stewart threw me for a loop. Hyles in particular would come out strong against fruit inspection, but not if I read an NIV. Other inspected fruit included: Christmas trees, being a Narnia fan, wine vs grape juice, rock music, the “beat”. The one question that lingered on my mind was: is any fruit necessary at all? Hyles did harm, and I was not willing to get my lasting impression from him.
Last year, I read “I Never Knew You” by Bowen, who was blameless, and I knew I was not going back.
Hobbs, I would have done better to word it following is not necessarily synonymous with believing. I would agree with John 10 there, and the sheep. 🙂 In Christ, Holly
Following is a comment I read today:
Those who do harm in the name of any religion are truly evil and should not be the lasting impression one takes from that religion. There are many examples of people doing wonderful things in the name of their religion, let’s not forget them.
My comment: People who do kind things, under the name of any religion or under the name of no religion at all, have not done anything to merit eternal life. Nor have they done anything to prove that they have received eternal life. The fact that adherents of any religion can point to good works and life transformation should reinforce why focusing on those things for evidence of eternal life is futile.
Eternal life is receiced by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Hi Holly, I admit I was just going by John’s comment from his previous link where he says to a commenter: ‘We think “follow” in (John 10:27) means believing in Jesus as the only hope of eternal life’. It’s also stated that way in the ‘Difficult Verses’ section. Only that it can be synonymous, perhaps? Regards.
Hobbs – Following is not synonymous with believing. Many who followed Him never believed, one betrayed Him. Many who believed on Him didn’t follow Him, some denied Him, some fled, some stayed carnal until death. But their soul was saved. God bless you this year.
Yeah, so I’m really being a bit finicky with that song aren’t I. Following can be synonymous with believing. It’s a good song actually. Sorry Cliff. 🙂
Jason, I’m glad!
It cleared up my mind about John 10:27. Glory to God in the highest.
Hobbs, it’s pretty fuzzy.
This link would help clarify:
Evidence of LS double-speak in a Christmas pop song.
From ‘Mistletoe and Wine’, specifically this bit:
‘Love and laughter and joy everafter,
‘Ours for the taking, just follow the Master’
So which is it; free for the taking or requiring a lifetime of following?
Both?
Sounds like another muddled message.
Hobbs and Jason, funny to come here and see the comments about the rich, and Americans in relation to the rest of the world. What we have, even the poorest of us to those of us who are doing better. Money comes and money goes, we can die tomorrow, I was thinking about that the other day, how many possessions we all seem to have without thinking about it. I know I am guilty of having too much in that it’s time in my life to simplify some. I had decided that for Christmas, I am going to enjoy giving some of it away. I’m not going to buy a bunch of new, but enjoy giving some of the things I already have as gifts to my children with a story and a relation to the Word regarding it. This has been so much more enjoyable this year as the focus continues to be on Him in joy, so much comes to mind with each thing I see. When we begin to understand grace, joy and also tears of gratefulness really begin to touch our lives more and more. God bless you all.
Compared to the unborn, even the Africans are rich. We are all rich because we have access to oxygen and can breathe. So that makes us all guilty of wealth. Sorry to confuse you further, lol. The only way to be poor enough to be saved by poverty is to have never been born. But thank God for grace. With God, through grace, salvation is possible and accessible without the self-negating rudimentary teachings of this world.
Hobbs, there is a lot of bad teaching.
Sometimes, off-hand comments can provide an open door for talking about the truth of the gospel.
I remember mentioning the ‘rich man and lazarus’ passage to a friend a while back. He said something like ‘wow, yes, that is quite a chilling account, I’m glad I’m not a rich man. Oh, but then we are rich compared to starving Africans’. Since I always take my friend very seriously, I momentarily panicked, thinking ‘what is he saying, that we need to give everything to the poor to really be saved in the end?’
Sounds like neither of us really trusted being saved by grace alone!
But, with such a barrage of false teaching doing the rounds it’s so easy to become bewitched. I guess most Christians are, on and off.
Yes, this blog is a real gem.
Jason, agree that the stuff you cited is bad teaching that sows confusion.
CAnswersTV omitted to say that with God, all things are possible, and with that double talk sowed doubts that negated all the accurate statements on salvation that filled the rest of his extremely long comment.
Without teaching that belief in Jesus puts me under probation, he has already implied it by his subtle accusations. These false teachers deceive even when they do not teach heresy. It is such a blessing to find this oasis of grace. Without it, my doubts would still be throbbing under that pile of rubbish, and my itching ears would be perked up to gather more crumbs. And I would continue on deceiving and being deceived.
Jason, Jesus also said that with men, this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.
Earning one’s way to heaven was not possible for the rich young ruler, nor for anyone else.
Someone who is rich need not acknowledge he is rich in order to receive eternal life.
From a self-comment on the youtube channel of CAnswersTV, which deals with the web of lies surrounding Hank Hanegraaff. Most of its information is of excellent quality, but in the middle of an extremely long comment, I find this piece of rubbish:
“Statistics provided in this video show that even the poorest Americans living in the United States have a better net income than most of the world. For instance, according to Forbes magazine, June 1, 2013, the bottom 5% of United States citizens are richer than 68% of people living throughout the rest of the world; U.S. citizens who make $50,000 a year are richer than 99.69% of the people in the rest of the world; U.S. citizens who make $20,000 a year are richer than 96% of the people in the rest of the world, U.S. citizens who make $10,000 a year are richer than 84% of the people in the rest of the world; U.S. citizens who make $100,000 a year are in a category that only 8 out of every 10,000 people achieve in the entire world. Will it be difficult for rich Americans who don’t think they’re rich to enter into the kingdom of heaven? Jesus already gave the answer”
My comment: what does being an American and being rich have to do with receiving eternal life? I know that I am a lazy, selfish person who has it easy. I also know that as base as these qualites are, they are not sins that I need to repent of in order to receive eternal life, since repenting of sins is never a requirement to receive eternal life. It is precisely such subtle lies that had me confused so long. It is stupidity like this that also argues for redistributing wealth, so everyone has equal probability of getting to heaven. False teachers like this are part of the problem, and they aren’t helping anything.
For all the good that Walter Martin did, he never to my knowledge exposed the heresy for lordship probation or the cult known as MacArthurism. He also omitted to point out that the protestant reformation reformed nothing.
One from today:
God does not pick and choose when someone asks for forgiveness. It is up to the individual to turn from their sinning ways.
My comment: Neither asking for forgiveness, nor turning from sinning ways are required to receive the free gift of eternal life. Eternal life is receiced by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
I just saw a video on Youtube by a conservative commentator (I do not know whether he has believed in Jesus Christ for eternal life) where he asked Amazons Alexa about Jesus Christ. Alexa’s answer was “Jesus Christ is a fictional character”. He then asked about Muhammad and Alexa said that he was a “very wise prophet”. He asked how Muhammad treated his wives and Alexa said she did not know. Reminds me of a line song I used to listen to “We are living in the future, I tell you how I know, I read it in the paper 15 years ago” but you can switch bible for paper. Crazy stuff.
I wasn’t sure where to post this, but I saw the following description of a show on the EWTN (RCC) Network:
Fr. Donald H. Calloway, MIC, presents men and women who have changed history through their trust in Our Lady and the rosary in “26 Champions of the Rosary: The Essential Guide to the Greatest Heroes of the Rosary.”
My comment: This is idolatry, plain and simple.
Johninnc, There was a guy who had a group following after him, I was incredulous that they would hear that Paul was a false teacher, but on the other hand, there are those who are unable to understand the whole counsel of God, so they instead relegate entire books written to the church as solely to the Jews. And in so doing, they may not call John, Jude, Peter and James false apostles, but they literally go against the purpose of the cross to make two men into one. Some have such a hard time with these other written epistles, they go so far that one teacher I ran into was calling it ‘meeting’ vs. church because we were not the church but the mystery.
Jason, it is evident to me that those who question Paul can clearly see that he teaches salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. However, they so adamantly oppose grace that the only way they can explain away the Pauline epistles is to say that they are not inspired.
I have been exposed to these teachings against Paul. For instance, Craig Winn draws people in with his sharp analysis of Islam on his Prophet of Doom site. And then he questions Paul and goes off into sacred name nonsense, denial of the Trinity, and Judaizing. One of his strange teachings is the femininity of the Holy Spirit.
Those who question Paul also have to bear in mind that Peter and Luke supported him and that John similarly presents the gospel as simple. When Paul says that even “we” are under a curse if a different gospel is preached, he clearly includes himself. We ought to question and reject tradition, a pastor, a martyr, a church, or anything else, if it contradicts the very gospel. It is what it means to be Bereans. I do wonder what part of Galatians 1 people don’t get.
Following are excerpts from a comment I read today:
(Paul) Who is the 13th Aposte and was warned about by Jesus in Matt(hew) as being someone who talks you from following the Law. Jesus also mentioned him as a liar in Rev(elation) 2:2? Look it up.
Paul offered “cheap grace” and said:
“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than there one we have preached to you, let him be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!” He also had people call him “father” and said “imitate me.”
Jesus said follow the Law. If you follow Christ, you follow Christ. Otherwise, your a Paulist and follow fake teachings.
My comment: The writer is incorrect that Paul offered “cheap grace.” Paul gave the good news of the amazing, free grace that is offered through Christ Jesus.
The writer is also incorrect about Paul being a fake teacher, and about Paul contradicting the teachings of Jesus. They are in complete harmony.
The writer is trying to deceive people into thinking that the Pauline epistles are not the inspired Word of God, because the writer is aware that Paul preaches grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
No one will ever receive eternal life by law keeping.
Holly, exactly. Just a blind person telling someone else to “get educated” is not very helpful. I guess it would be better than getting educated by them.
Johninnc, every time I see those kinds of comments, I just shake my head in sadness. They don’t even see their own pride and arrogance, if they truly thought that what they were preaching was true, you’d think they’d deliver the message to you meekly, gently, instructing you with His truth, with some sort of ability to teach. Instead they frequently insult or manipulate with their words. Reminds me of 2 Cor 4:1-2
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; but have <brenounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
“Get educated”.
Usually this phrase is the calling card of the misinformed, ironically. A red flag.
A more accurate translation would be “Get indoctrinated”.
One from today. Name redacted:
“__________ openly stated that he never repented of his sins or asked Jesus Christ to become Lord of his life. Obviously, that would mean he isn’t a Christian. Get educated.”
My comment: the person who made the above statement is confused as to how someone becomes a Christian. Neither repenting of sins, not asking Jesus Christ to become Lord of one’s life are required to have eternal life.
Jason – That’s because too many of them use Bunyan’s ‘Pilgrim’s Progress’ as their gospel.
2believe1is2trust – Astounds me too actually. A lot of the loadship/Calvinist churches are using the words ‘Grace’, I suppose they think they have a corner on grace with the five solas, but was that really what was proclaimed way back then? (I know you know it’s a rhetorical question).
I do agree that they tend to put Him on the same playing field, as you say, but on the other hand, they attribute things to their idea of God that they would never attribute to themselves (i.e. choosing several of their children to go to hell before they were ever born). Like some awful lottery.
We are also taught that to go places, we must follow directions and not make one wrong turn. The journey is not over until we arrive at our destination. No such thing as stepping into a magic wardrobe or clicking your heels three times and saying “no place like home”. Life itself is said to be a journey. The idea that only one turn is to be made, the road is very short, and leads straight to the gate, beyond which is eternal life, is just too simple.
It’s always amazed me all these ‘preachers’ can say they believe in grace and consistently add works to salvation. They proclaim how great the Lord is, and He is, but put Him on the same human playing field so to speak. As humans, the sinners that we are, we always want to see results to help someone. ‘Yes but what have you done for ME?’ mentality. It’s not what we have done for Him but what HE has done for us. Too many take their eyes of Christ and put it on themselves as if we could ever have anything good enough to offer a Holy God! Blasphemy!
Brad, yes, we’ve been taught we have to work or earn for things. Earn respect, earn our wage, work for everything we’ve got — even in those things, we don’t thank God for what we’ve been given (to our shame).
It’s hard to comprehend free, we’ve been taught ‘nothing in life is free’. Yet He offered His life in our place, and in Christ and Him crucified, we see His price, but yet eternal life is offered ‘without price’ (Rom 5:15-ff, 6:23; Is 55:1-2). The ‘free gift’…
Brad, good points. Our ways are not His ways.
Prov. 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
As quoted by Keith.
Look at the world around us. It is all predicated on WORKS.
“pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps”
“work hard to succeed in the world”
Everywhere, people HAVE to work to make ends meet. It is an unquestioned fact.
God was giving humanity a free ride before the fall. Everything was already provided for them in full. After the fall God declared to Adam in Geneses 3:19:
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
In other words, you’re gonna have to WORK for what you need now. It has remained this way ever since.
The way of FALLEN men is personal works for personal gains.
This manifests itself in spirituality as religion. Men trying to solve their own problems without God. In the secular world the United Nations is a fantastic example of this.
WORKS for salvation are the “ways of death”.
A question to ponder: If the way that seems right to man is NOT works, then why does this entire world system, upheld by men, thrive on it? Surely if it didn’t seem right to men they would have risen up against it by now.
Works feed men’s pride. If men’s pride isn’t fed their ego is damaged. If their ego is damaged… well… maybe they will start seeing themselves for what they truly are in God’s sight.
Phil, agree completely.
People seem to always be trying to be right with God through their own righteousness, keeping the law. And they always fall short. But the only way is the righteousness of Christ on our behalf. This is the only way we will ever be justified and be right with God. (Romans 3:19-28)
“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death”.
-Prov. 14:12
Keith, all good points. Religion is always looking for a loophole.
John, the poster in your comment stated, “Of course, we humans are *always* looking for the loophole that allows us (me included, BTW) to be among the “chosen of God” without having to change or that we fatalistically leave the sanctification to God without dying to self”.
No, unregenerate humans are always looking for the loophole that allows them to be among the “chosen of God” by doing good works or observing life changes without trusting in the finished work of Christ alone for eternal life. This is why all the world’s man-made religions, Calvinism and LS included, require good works and faithfulness to attain or have the assurance of eternal life.
The problem of self-justification in fallen humanity goes all the way back to Gen. 3:7, where Adam and Eve covered their nakedness and the guilt of their sin using sewn fig leaves. This work, however, done on their own initiative and not at God’s direction, was inadequate. So God had to sacrifice an animal and clothe them with tunics of skin (Gen. 3:21), foreshadowing the once-for-all, final sacrifice which Christ would ultimately make on theirs and all of humanities’ behalf.
Just as Adam and Eve had to relinquish their clothes of fig leaves in order to put on the animal skins which God provided, an unbeliever must put off his good works, faithfulness, turning from sin, life changes or any intention of those (repent) in order to receive by faith the perfect, once-for-all sacrifice which Christ has already made on his behalf.
And, along the same lines, here is a long excerpt from one that conditions receipt of eternal life on “having to change”:
The thing about these verses (Ephesians 1:4-6 and Romans 8:28-30) and others like them is that Paul is not emphasizing that believers were “predestined before the foundation of the world…” to be “saved” or, as you put it, “win the cosmic lottery.” Rather, it is a call to all believers to conform to Christ in his holiness and love.
Of course, we humans are *always* looking for the loophole that allows us (me included, BTW) to be among the “chosen of God” without having to change or that we fatalistically leave the sanctification to God without dying to self.
The scriptures make very clear that such ones deceive themselves, holding to a form of godliness but lacking its power. God being God and possessing omniscience knows who are the “sheep” and who are the “goats.” But as for us, it remains that we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The problem isn’t that God is judgmental, capricious, and selfish; the problem is that God is good and we are not.
One last verse from 1 John 5:24: “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” Of course, if I read an “X-acto” Bible, I’m inclined to ignore John’s call to love and holiness in virtually every verse that precedes!
My comment: sigh. Where do I start? The writer says that the verses he cited are a call to believers to conform to Christ. Then, he suggests that if they don’t, they are not really believers. Why would non-believers be told to conform to Christ? And why would believers be told to conform to Christ if it were automatic, and therefore confirmed they were believers?
Once a person believes in Jesus as Savior, he is chosen to be justified and ultimatlely glorified. One is not “chosen of God” by his willingness to change.
The writer of the above comment seems to admit that he can’t know whether or not he has eternal life, so he just keeps working at it.
Here is one I found today:
Works are the naturally-occurring fruit of a saving faith, not a precondition of it.
My comment: the above statement is predicated on the false Calvinist tenet of perseverance of the saints – if works WILL be present in one who has eternal life, they MUST be present.
John 6:47 – I think we see in Scripture that works are not automatic, in fact the one thing that seems automatic is our propensity to sin.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Romans 7:19
It seems completely within the confines of literal context to understand that the exhortations in God’s Word are there because they are necessary. It doesn’t seen that complicated, but then again, Pharisee’s and Sadducee’s have always been selective with Scripture, ignoring what didn’t suit their own thinking and proof texting Scripture into their own accusations.
It reminds me of the pompous king in The Little Prince who, on schedule, commands the sun to set. The sun sets automatically, so what was the point? He gives the lame excuse that no dictator would ever give an unreasonable command. He never heard of Lenin and the confiscation of grain, lol. Just like the Calvinists.
Amen Holly, if works were automatic, then why would the Bible tell us to do good works? It’s like telling someone who can’t walk to not walk.
John, I didn’t know that (about Rom 12:2 being the most searched Scripture), but we went over it in the Bible study a couple weeks ago. I completely agree, it is not automatic, it is an instruction for believers and wouldn’t be necessary if automatic. It is part of practical/ongoing sanctification when we cooperate to get in the Word I believe, (transformed by the renewing of your mind) which I believe comes by our walk with Him, the washing in the water by the Word (Eph 5:26) or the cleansing/sanctification by it (Jn 17:17). Abiding in Him and continuing in His Word.
Spurgeon – sigh… these ‘princes’ are mini-accusers of the brethren.
That made me chuckle, jason.
Wow, I’m going to have to use that analogy when dealing with what I call the ‘changed life crowd’. I couldn’t come up with anything better myself.
Jason, this is an apt analogy that illustrates the point pretty well.
A Mafioso kills 100 people a day. He tries out Grace Confusion Church. He is told that he must live differently than before. For the next month, he kills 10 people per day. His Nouthetic Counselor tells him he is not truly saved. He says, but I used to kill 100 per day, now I only kill ten. How is that for living differently? The counselor takes him to MacArthur, who says, that’s not what I meant. The hitman complains that it is vague and hints that he knows other Mafiosi that could use his money. And he goes back to the priest, since the priest always prescribes how many prayers to Mary must be said.
A repentance of sin for salvation needs to be repented of, but salvation by grace through faith is without repentance by God.
Jason, this reminded me of a Spurgeon quote that also undermines the gospel:
Another proof of the conquest of a soul for Christ will be found in a real change of life. If the man does not live differently from what he did before, both at home and abroad, his repentance needs to be repented of, and his conversion is a fiction. – 19th Century Preacher Charles Spurgeon
Holly, it is indeed wonderful. I can’t imagine what it must be like to be in Adam’s situation.
Everyone, this message from Hixson deals with the destructive Transhumanism movement.
http://www.notbyworks.org/resources/multimedia/details?id=1336361
Jason, isn’t it wonderful really to know that He knows, even when others can’t begin to know our hearts and our struggles and our tears, He knows and cares. We can get such healing and counsel from His Word (Ps 119:25, 28; Pr 22:17-21).
I feel like my mind is not renewed without surveying the wondrous cross. Everything from where I came from to what I should do must be understood in light of God’s grace.
most of the time when preached
A pulpit person will go from Roman’s 1:16
and jump right to romans 12:1-2 using guilt as the motivation hence nullifies Grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness. Then go about trying to live the Christian in the energy of the flesh.
When the Christian Life is lived by our relationship to the Holy Spirit. We are either filled with the Spirit or not filled. There is No third option.
We are Filled with the Spirit by enjoying our salvation through The Word of God.
How is your appetite for the Word of God?
Holly, a while back, I heard Tom say that Romans 12:2 is the most searched for Bible verse on the internet:
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
I hope that people are understanding that this verse reflects God’s desire for all believers, but that it is not automatic or guaranteed in the lives of believers.
That 2013 comment was in the context of other people’s stuggles with bipolar disorder and depression, things the Bobgans won’t touch. My sister has bipolar. I gave the booklet yesterday to another lady who is a friend of the family, and she also struggles with bipolar. I have Asbergers. The Bible does know of at least one person who did not bring his problems on himself: Job.
With that, I am once again turned off and will mark and avoid the Bobgans. They overreact.
Excellent comment on James 2 and glorying Johninnc. Well thought out, completely agree, a pleasure to read the Word laid out clearly. Love and appreciate it.
Hobb’s I’ve heard the argument about the ‘good sense to choose God’ or ‘smarter than someone else’. I’ve just never met their straw man before. Honestly, can you say you’ve met a grace believer who thinks it’s about being smarter, or having better sense, etc.? We know it’s not of works, lest any man should boast, and that it was because someone delivered the true message to is, the power of the gospel unto salvation. We all had God made known to us (Rom 1), we all had the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon us regarding sin, righteousness, judgment, unbelief. I know there were people praying for me, other’s labored in the harvest for me. God’s placing us in the best place, time, etc. Satan has minds blinded so people won’t believe the glorious gospel, we have to continue to get that light out there in wisdom in the battle. He has done all the work in salvation (1 Cor 1:30-31).
Jason, I found at least one old comment (from 2013) critical of the Bobgans. Based on the quotes you provided earlier, I would rather not give them an extended platform here.
I have had my own exposure to problem centered counseling with a job coach. It did not relieve job stress but added to it. I was uncomfortable fielding questions that were prying into the details of my life. I did not think questions such as whether I help my mom were appropriate. The coach used the counseling as an opportunity to inspect the apples and oranges that I consumed. In my deceitful heart, I cussed out the job coach. It was all I could do not to let the sin find verbal expression. I was an example of the Bobgans’ observation that men do not like being the counselee. I eventually resigned.
Nouthetic Counseling is what MacArthur’s Grace Communism Church uses. I heard criticism of Theophostic Counseling from Hanegraaff (who converted to Eastern “Orthodoxy”).
No one except the Bobgans criticizes counseling, and also no one criticizes the Bobgans.
Jesus is Wonderful Counselor. He is the one who stores our tears in a bottle.
yes. that was me promoting The psycohearasy website.
the difficulty is their statement of faith for how a soul receives Christ is ok. But i have not researched all their papers.
There really isn’t anything out there warning people of the dangers of trying to mix psychology and the Bible. for people who may find themselves caught in the web.
the bottom line is the Clarity of The Gospel and our perfect standing in Christ before God the throne of Grace.
Jason, agree with your analysis.
Sorry Jason, was trying not to snitch. Honest.
Material from Martin and Deidre Bobgan is sometimes promoted by comments on this site. I have caught them in double-minded fruit inspection before. Yesterday, I caught them teaching Lordship Salvation plain and simple.
In Stop Counseling, Start Ministering, the Bobgans are exposing the dangers of biblical counseling, including Nouthetic and Theophostic. Their criticism can be summed up by saying that modern counseling, even if Bible based, encourages gossip, evil speaking, the unbridled tongue. Their teaching against self-esteem had turned me off, but their criticism of problem centered counseling held my interest.
As they give an example of the problem with counseling, the Bobgans on p. 90 said:
“From what Mary says during the dialogue, there is
no evidence of repentance for sin or genuine conversion
(beyond attending church and having some Christian friends
for two years) or of any sense of her own sinfulness as she
continues to complain about her husband and berate him.”
This Mary had just claimed to have had a conversion experience. But what does repentance of sin have to do with salvation? What do the Bobgans say is genuine conversion? A sense of sinfulness has something to do with it but must be followed up with simple trust in the Savior. The Bobgans missed an opportunity to communicate the clear gospel and instead teach Lordship.
I can’t recommend the Bobgans any more than Spurgeon.
I was probably overthinking, just like the Calvinist. I agree with the discussion that followed.
Hobbs, it sounds like you understand.
Thanks all.
I think I got a handle on the James 2 thing a while back, i.e. James isn’t saying faith is non-existent, just unproductive.
Guess I stumbled a bit over the previous comment ‘Faith without works is dead, and it seems to please God to save us through dead faith’.
But as Keith pointed out, ‘Faith unto salvation from sin’s penalty (receiving eternal life) is dead faith if works ARE involved’.
Correct me if I still sound muddled!
Hobbs, you said, “If faith without works are dead, is faith unto salvation dead faith since no works can be involved?”
Faith unto salvation from sin’s penalty (receiving eternal life) is dead faith if works are involved, that is, if one’s assurance of salvation from sin’s penalty is in any way based on good works or the promise of good works. Romans 4:5 states, “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness”.
God’s desire is for those who have been delivered from sin’s penalty to walk by the Spirit and do good works (Eph. 2:10). As he does so, the believer’s soul is saved, which means that he is delivered from sin’s power and unfruitfulness and fulfills God’s purposes for his life. He will be rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ after the rapture of the Church (1 Cor. 3: 12-14). For a believer who has already been delivered from sin’s penalty, if he sees a fellow believer in need and does nothing to meet that need, failure to do good works does not deliver him from sin’s power since he commits the sin of omission (Jas. 4:17). Faith alone can’t save him from an unproductive life and consequent loss of reward (Jas. 2:17), but he still possesses eternal life.
In chapter 2, James is talking about faith unto salvation from sin’s power and unfruitfulness with its consequent loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ for one who has already been saved and knows he has been saved from sin’s penalty. By meeting the needs of fellow believers (v. 15 and 16), he demonstrates his faith to others and justifies himself before other people (v. 24), not before God or before himself (Rom. 4:2).
as believer souls we can
Shipwreck our faith
Faith can be overthrown.
We can loose our faith.
but never never loose our perfect postion in Christ Jesus Justification
Hobbs, we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The quality of our faith is not the issue in whether or not we have eternal life. The object of our faith is the issue. When one believes in Jesus as his Savior, the object of his faith is Jesus. Everyone who has faith in Christ as Savior has the potential to be faithful.
James uses the term “dead” in relation to faith, to describe non-productive faith. Non-productive faith means that someone is not being faithful. James is appealing to the potential in his readership to be faithful, not to tell them to fruit inspect to determine whether they, or anyone else has eternal life based on works.
This cannot lead to fruit inspection if we remember two things:
1. The object of our faith is Christ. If we were to look to our works for evidence of eternal life, that would draw our eye away from our Redeemer to ourselves, which would make assurance of eternal life impossible.
2. The Bible tells us that we can have assurance of eternal life if we have believed in Jesus as Savior – without any reference to works.
Ephesians 2:8-9:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 3:26-28:
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
[27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:1-3:
[1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
[2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
The word “glory” in Romans 4:2 has the same meaning as the words “boasting” in Romans 3:27 and “boast” in Ephesians 2:9.
Interesting point: if faith without works are dead, is faith unto salvation dead faith since no works can be involved? Why do I sense this could lead back to fruit inspection.
Agree with the above
The believer who has dead faith, or faith without works (Jas. 2:17), has still been eternally delivered from sin’s penalty. Dead faith cannot deliver a believer from loss of profit, or reward, at the Bema seat (Jas. 2:14).
Jason, it pleases God to give us eternal life as a free gift. Then, it is His will that we live for Him. But, it is not a requirement for eternal life – either up front or at the back end.
And if it is self-serving, that takes the merit out of it. Faith without works is dead, and it seems to please God to save us through dead faith.
Thanks, John.
Receiving deliverance from condemnation is a self-serving act and is not a saving virtue
Yes, that sounds like a good explanation to me.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
better translation is Faithfulness
“the fruit of the Spirit”
Byproduct of abiding in Christ Through the Word of God by The Spirit of God.
The Spirit of God gets ahold of us through the Word of God desiring to make the Word of God practical in life. Through application of Truth through experience.
So were does faith come from?
Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God.
How’s your appetite for the Word of God.?
Hobbs, following is an excerpt from a quote by J.O. Hosler that addresses your question:
Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit comes He will convict the world of unbelievers of sin, righteousness and of judgment (Jn.16:8-11). In order to do this, God created unbelievers with a capacity for experiencing conviction of sin, understanding the righteousness of God and understanding the judgment of God. To attribute to unregenerate man a sovereignly God-given capacity to believe is not attributing a saving virtue to the sinner. Receiving deliverance from condemnation is a self-serving act and is not a saving virtue (Rom. 4:5; II Pet. 1:5).
Just out of interest, what is the counter-argument to the notion that if faith is not the gift then it kind of gives us the opportunity to boast that we at least had the good sense to choose God, even in our fallen state, than those who reject Him?
Calvinism just sounds like a lot of over-thinking. Did my head in just working out that little paragraph!
‘Simplicity in Christ’ is the antidote to Calvinism.
That faith in faith is unhealthy is another argument that the Calvinists use. If faith is NOT a gift, then our faith is in faith. In order for faith to be in God, it has to be of God. But would the vain fools know that gifted faith leads to fruit inspection, and fruit inspection to faith in faith?
Why is it that we and Calvinists consistently derive the opposite conclusions from common premises? Faith is not in faith. The heart is deceitful. Human reasoning is corrupted. Faith is not a work. And even salvation is all of grace. And yet we cannot agree about the ordo salutis. They cannot see that works to prove salvation and works to keep it are effectively the same thing.
They likewise cannot see that if God instructs us to believe and rejects us because he did not give our belief to us, then God offered us a fish and gave us a snake. Like Islam and hyperdisp, they make God a schemer and a deceiver.
My prayers for all who read Ron’s booklet and hear and believe the gospel of grace alone.
Brad, good point about people who make faith the object of their salvation rather than Christ Crucified for their salvation. To me this is the key issue and problem with Calvinism, LS, and any other form of legalism. No matter how they they try to present it, faith comes out as a work- faith plus works. And it’s not just faith; they just keep raising the bar of what that faith must produce in a persons life.
Saving faith is no more than simply accepting the finished work of Christ at Calvary. When one does he receives full pardon and eternal life. Again, Christ has done all the work, all we do is accept it for our salvation.
Holly, that distinction between salvation and discipleship is the most crucial isn’t it. Wish I had seen it when I was having my panic stations in the past.
Found one of Jack’s old replies to someone on here:
Fact:
Salvation — we have a CHOICE to believe in Jesus Christ!
Service, discipleship — we have a CHOICE to serve Him, it is NEITHER automatic nor mandatory. THAT is God’s Grace.
The Bible is replete with admonitions for believers to “walk in the Spirit” (in obedience to Him), because it is not always easy nor desirable. The new nature says “Yes, serve Him” and the old nature says “No, I don’t want to, I have no desire.” These thoughts and decisions neither help nor hurt their salvation.
Salvation is FREE —
Service, discipleship can be costly — but voluntary and has absolutely NOTHING to do with saving or keeping one saved.
I think that’s a wonderful bit of writing in truth and I guess it’s what I’m choosing to believe is correct at this point in my life.
Yes you’re right I tend to have always looked at life and spiritual issues via the lens of my friend’s thinking. I should do the berean thing of course. Can’t say I honestly am/do much. Guess I’m learning my lesson the hard way. But I am getting to know scripture much better than I ever did though via the comments on here and from Pastor Arnold, so that’s something.
So true Holly. If God gives people faith as calvinists believe, then why did he give some people in the bible a weak faith? Seems pretty self-sabotaging. God would have only ever given someone a perfect faith, if he did give it.
I have noticed a lot of people like to make faith the object of their salvation, rather than Christ crucified. Faith only saves when it’s object is Jesus Christ.
When I click the “Post Comment” button below, I TRUST that this comment will be submitted to this website. That is the same type of trust that saves a person. What God promised, He is also able to carry out.
When I was a Calvinist, I was exposed to every order of salvation imaginable. I could not tell whether regeneration came first and it did not matter. It is now clear to me that a Calvinist thinks like a Sith.
Jason, good news about your dad and Ron Shea’s booklet. Hope he’ll just desire more of the pure Word. When we get into the strong meat of His Word, our senses are better exercised to discern between good and evil. I notice that Arminians and Calvinists fight using cardboard and tinfoil swords. They don’t really use the Word of God, but men’s words who have arranged proof texts with shiny words to fight with. They honestly don’t recognize other Scriptures. Ask a Calvinist to share the gospel with you, it generally won’t happen. I have had it happen, and I was shocked, but I did tell him he left out the part where the Holy Spirit pre-regenerated the person to believe it. And how Jesus asked so many in the crowds to believe what He was saying and we know not all did, so why would He do that? Why would He call for them to ‘have faith’. Why would He commend someone for ‘great faith’ (if a gift from God then Jesus was giving the glory to the wrong person). Why would He chasten His disciples for being of little faith? Then again, He’s saying that God has done something that needs chastened? Assuming faith is the gift.
Hobbs – we none measure up on loving Him the way we should. But part of our walk is the fact that we still have this sinful flesh, that we have to put off. Daily armor is really important in that.
I think it’s o.k. to get counsel from others, trouble is, are we testing it according to what Scripture says. When someone tells you something, you shouldn’t be afraid at all to ask them where it says something in His Word. Ask them to send you some Scriptures. Look it up in context.
The women’s Bible study I’ve been teaching for the past couple of weeks has been on positional sanctification vs. practical/progressive or ongoing sanctification. I realize that this study could be an awful long one if I let it, but we’re just looking at Scripture and asking, ‘is this already addressing believers?’ Is this addressing eternal life, or discipleship? Saved from what? Eternal death or consequences?
Why did Jesus pray that His already clean (11) disciples would be sanctified with God’s Word? (Jn 17:17,19) Why did Jesus tell believers in chapter 8 (31-32) to continue in His Word to be disciples indeed?
Basically the study I used to show others how to ask themselves, ‘does this speak to me being partially cleansed/washed, as in growing in maturity/discipleship? Or does this speak to the one time event of sanctification by His one sacrifice? (Heb 10:10,14; Rev 1:5-6). It helps clear up some of the difficult passages when you ask, ‘is this something a believer SHOULD do or something a nonbeliever HAS to do in order to be given the free gift of eternal life?’
By the way when you ask someone to show you or answer something are they patiently laying it out with His Word? I usually ask if it gave me something to sow, or some food to eat (man does not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord). Does it settle on you like the Word says here? Does it accomplish the same thing? And no one should make you feel badly for asking someone to show you patiently in His Word, they should commend you (Acts 17:11).
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven,
and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth,
and maketh it bring forth and bud,
that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Is 55:10-11
Jason, I am happy that you shared the booklet with your father and I will pray for him.
Today I had an opportunity to give a copy of Shea’s booklet to both my mom and my dad. My dad’s case was interesting. Little did I know that my dad was wrestling with fruit inspection and had come to the conclusion that it was not of God.
We were talking politics over Chinese food, and he mentioned the fact that Woodrow Wilson was a racist. I made mention of his religion. And that segued into the subject of the carnal Christian. I said that according to reformed theology’s definition of a Christian, that man was not truly saved. My dad said that was wrong and that Christians can do horrible things.
So my dad no longer believes in POS. I told him about the MacArthur study bibles and that Calvinism is Augustinianism. Those facts were new to him. He is still hung up on election.
When I showed him the booklet, he read the first two pages and knew it was on point. We reached a point of mutual understanding that I had not experienced in a long time.
When I was a Calvinist, I leaned towards a TUIP view, with a free will paradox thrown in. I did not like the limited atonement at all. I stayed away from the doctrinaire folks. Hanegraaff had me convinced this was not an essential issue. I considered myself Protestant. I believed Luther was saved. I’m not sure now.
I have heard that asking for salvation insults God. Yet the thief on the cross asked to be remembered and Jesus did not refuse him but gave him immediate assurance. How does asking for eternal life insult God, yet asking for faith is not equally insulting? Within that system, is not receiving the gift something God has decreed?
The fine argument that once took me captive was that free will is a philosophy of man. Luther said so. He even attributed it to Aristotle. So much for that.
As for praying for the dead, it could be rationalized as well. Or it could be argued that we should not pray at all.
Jason, not even the Calvinists themselves can un-tie the Gordian Knots their system imposes on scripture. I’m still working on figuring out how they can be so sure that their system is correct and it can only be understood by the elect after regeneration (citing 1Cor 2:14) and they say they understand it yet are not sure if they are regenerated or of the elect because they have some preserving to do. I’m sure you’ve had the experience of after walking through step by step how they say the system works and they will agree as you walk through it and then when you make the logical conclusion they tell you “you just don’t understand”. I’m sure that asking for faith vs asking Jesus into one’s heart is just one of those things that they like to say we don’t understand.
I was in conversation with a couple of them weeks ago and they totally affirmed that God has decreed (past tense) ALL that will come about. Then one said they pray to God that He will open my eyes to the truth. I asked if she was in the habit of praying for the physically dead. She said she was not. I agreed it is not a biblical practice and that the fate of the physically dead is sealed. I then asked if the decision that I would remain spiritually dead or be regenerated was made in eternity past (fate sealed) what good her prayer today would do. I asked “isn’t it a little man centered to think you have influence with God Who has already decided if I would be allowed to believe?” Turns out I just don’t understand the system…a sure sign of rebellion against God they tell me.
Good point. I have never heard of Sproul et al criticizing the heart faith. They are invariably the ones who promote it.
As for the asking, what about asking for the gift of faith? Since it is a heart faith, isn’t asking for it the same thing? Figure that one out.
I am not a proponent of asking Jesus into one’s heart—this is not equal to believing in Him for eternal life. But for JMac, Sproul and others of the Calvinist stripe their opposition does not concern the heart but rather the asking. In their scheme the heart is vital but no one is capable of asking God to do something that He had not decreed that He would do in eternity past. Their scheme is heart centered. Asking is man centered. And that’s what they oppose. That’s really the only thing separating Calvinist LS from Arminian LS. They have the same premise; they make different deductions but come to the same conclusion i.e. that if one is truly saved they will persevere.
There is a comment from two months ago on a Hank Lindstrom video, rationalizing the heretical teaching of asking Jesus into one’s heart. The defenses were numbered, systematic and pathetic. One of them was that the Bible consistently addresses the heart. This is true. But the Word addresses the heart to expose its unknowably deceitful wickedness and to exhort believers to walk according to the new heart that they were given. And not one of these addresses has anything to do with asking Jesus to enter. In none of the defenses given is the Biblical lack of distinction between the organs ever considered. The commenter hurls loaded language at Lindstrom, insinuating that he lacks understanding and implying that he never truly trusted.
Even MacArthur does not go to this length to defend such language, because he knows that it confuses, and he wants to be clear that he believes in works to prove salvation. Sproul opposes it. I have heard people who are LS call it easy-believism. Such mumbo jumbo has been a disservice to both sides of the LS controversy and extremely useful to Satan.
Hobbs, it is God’s desire that we grow in grace and He desires to teach us.
God chastens (trains, provides instruction to) all believers, not just disobedient or rebellious believers.
People respond to this discipline in a number of ways, some of which are appropriate and some of which are not. The most disciplined Christians are the ones who respond most appropriately to discipline.
John, thanks for helpful comments.
‘We receive Christ’s imputed perfection when we believe in Him as Savior. Once we are saved, we do “measure up” in God’s eyes.’
That being for salvation, but God still see’s our fleshly walk and may correct it via chastening etc. to help us ‘measure-up’ in discipleship terms, is that about right?
It’s a relief to hear that not all saved believers necessarily love Christ. That would account for a lot.
The bible says to believe in Christ to be saved, not love Christ to be saved. One tends to assume (or has been taught) that they are synonymous.
Hobbs, the Bible does have standards – God’s standard is perfection. We receive Christ’s imputed perfection when we believe in Him as Savior. Once we are saved, we do “measure up” in God’s eyes.
Incidentally, your friend said: …and that is why we love our Saviour
My comment: Loving our Savior is not the same thing as believing in Him as Savior. Not all Christians love Jesus, and those that do, don’t all love Him all of the time.
I had a friend once say to me something to the effect of ‘I know it sucks but the Bible is all about standards’. I immediately had that cold feeling of dread as he said it because I took it as ‘I gotta measure up, or else hell’ (this was before I got clear again on the Gospel).
I’m still not measuring up much as far as I can see, so Grace is all I got!
I’ve always been in awe of this friend, he genuinely seems to aim for very high standards in how he lives and treats people. Or at least that’s how I’ve always seen him.
Ironically, he’s the reason I continued reading expreacherman. I sent him Jack’s ‘What is Grace’ article when I first read it back in 2015, wanting reassurance it was sound, and he came back that he agreed with it 100% and that Jack was absolutely right to speak out against Lordship ‘Salvation’. He concluded his email to me with ‘and that is why we love our Saviour’ i.e. because He freely died for us; no strings attached.
Only problem is, I’m not sure if I’m really thinking for myself. It took someone else to verify the article and give me confidence with it. If he hadn’t approved it I would probably have just shrugged and gone back to wandering the internet again like a lost soul in torment.
Lost ‘saved’ soul, that is.
Christ paid for my sins!
Jason, sounds like one to mark and avoid.
*Five Marks
It was much of the usual LS drivel. Cannot live in sin, the law applies, etc. A lot of but’s.
One line that I haven’t thought of is that God calls me to a high standard. Without saying it, he has already implied that it is a standard that I must measure up to, or else hell. This is the problem with books like Jesus Calling. Calling to what? How about grace, eternal life, and a promise that only God shall perform? Usually, it is LS.
Some other strange notions: the blood of Jesus transforms (infusion), demons escort the lost (with wrong definition of the lost) into hell.
Jason, that’s a higher ratio of dislikes than I would have anticipated.
A YouTube video “False Marks of the False-Grace Movement” has 600 likes and 300 dislikes. Since this is yet another lordship video, the 300 dislikes are good news. Even flat earth videos have had like to dislike ratios as high as 10 to 1. This video takes quite awhile to get to the point. But the title itself tells me they have a low view of Biblical grace.
Jason and John, one person who used to visit here, a young man, was waylaid in private by this older woman on FB. She would put all these wonderful Pictures on her pages, with Bible verses with them, and seemed to be the model of grace. But behind the scenes she told a different story, preying on the week, and gossiping with those who were prone in that area, still those things seem to eventually come to the light.
The young man who has now become a Demas, came to me about this woman using words like ‘real Christians’ or ‘true believers’ will or will not do certain things. I didn’t know at the time who the woman was, but I did tell her (as I tell all), tell this person to bring their doctrine to the light, if they really believe it to be truth, they should be proclaiming it out in front of all.
These people sneak in, and they look for those who might hear them. They have lots of conversations in private, feeling people out and trying to draw away disciples. We know they can come from among us. That conversation you posted is just so much like whatever their do or don’t list is that proves they are believers. They forget their spouse, their family, their neighbor, their roommate KNOWS the type of person they really are. 🙂 More than that the Lord does, and if they have not believed that they are His apart from any works they have or will do, then they have not believed, and they are not the ‘actual Christians’ or the ‘true believers’ sadly for them.
Jason, agree. Faith in Christ alone is how one receives eternal life.
The writer of the editorial does not seem to understand that.
Whatever that group is, it would have been appropriate rather to ask if they had a correct soteriology. Unfortunately, having a repugnant political view is possible for a true Christian, like every other conceivable failing.
Holly, the part leading up to the quote that I gave said that anyone who held a particularly repugnant political view (I won’t list the particulars) was not a Christian.
The exact quote:
Good Christians do not believe this. At least not any more. The people who believe this are masquerading as Christians. Actual Christians strive to love our God with all our heart soul and mind and love our neighbors as ourselves…
My comment: Fruit inspection 101. How could a “real Christian” have believed something 200 years ago and been a “real Christian,” but if they believe it these days they are “masquerading”?
With LS, where there’s smoke, there’s fire.
How can I put this in just a very honest way?
I didn’t at all strive to do that, I at times tried to please Him by doing good, but it was more because it’s what I was taught vs. doing it out of love for Him. I didn’t know how to love someone I didn’t know. As I began to know Him more through His Word, seeing His wonderful character, His great love for me, understanding to some degree the unfathomable thought of a God storing my tears, counting the hairs on my head, having precious thoughts towards me?… Those things were just the barely scratching the surface of our great God, and the pitiful amount of love I can show Him is unworthy, but it’s honest, more honest than I ever understood it would be concerning loving Him. It’s so much a part of the good news. Who He is. What He has done for us in such great love.
Striving? Yes we should try to express our love for Him but it only comes because we first were and continually are loved by Him. I hope I worded that well, been kind of busy in paperwork/taxes, and trying to take a break from time to time in order not to be overwhelmed. Anyways, may the Lord bless all who come to read here, to take heed to the truth they will find, and to confirm it with His Word.
The following line came from an editorial today in “The State” (Columbia, SC) newspaper:
Actual Christians strive to love our God with all our heart soul and mind and to love our neighbors as ourselves…
My comment: According to this statement, no one could have assurance of eternal life unless he was consistently striving to love God with all of his heart soul and mind and to love his neighbor as himself.
Christians SHOULD do these things. But, actual Christians are those who have believed in Christ alone as their Savior.
Their were several OT blessings (think of the land that is still left to be fulfilled), but the blessing of eternal life (the just live by faith) has always been the same. Discipleship has been the same. People being cut off because of unbelief; the same. The difference we have that is wonderful is the taking away of sin, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
We can quench the Holy Spirit, we can grieve Him (awful) but He will never leave us.
Like, what is a soul? No math or physics will ever explain that.
Keep in mind theese are physics professors we are talking about. The gentleman are so mathematically smart yet the simplest things can baffle them to no end.
They try to explain away all interconnected details of what they are thinking and end up loosing what they were trying to say.
I know there was a Time on expreacherman.com the moderators would not allow outside links. Im now seeing the wisdom in that.
Jason, excellent point.
I notice that at the end of Revelation, it gets focused on believing, referred to as drinking freely of the water of life. I take that as a clear biblical statement that the gospel has not changed through the ages. The tribulation saints aren’t drinking any less freely than we church agers.
Robert Herman has books, books, books about math, and poorly written.
The Old Testament Blessings was by Obedience.
The New Testament Or dispensation of Grace In Christ We Have been blessed with all Spirtual Blessings.
Wether we allow the Holy Spirit to find fulfillment in the lives we now live yeilded to Holy Spirit through the Word of God .
They are ours wether we enjoy them or not they are still yours.
Agree with your points, John.
Technically, they were not Jews until Jacob. I think it is likely that Naaman, Nebuchadnezzar, and the Ninevites who heeded Jonah were saved.
Whitcomb may have been careless. I found his ideas about the tribulation interesting, but he got hairy at points.
I can tolerate a wide range of views about temporal punishment, but salvation had better be left as is.
If millennial sacrifices cover temporal punishment, but godly living suffices during the church age, that is a contradiction. The symbolic view does not have that problem.
It is sad to see people going astray.
Jason, I think Adam is in heaven, and I don’t recall his having converted to Judaism.
Regarding the purpose of millennial sacrifices, I was of the belief that they were meant to be more symbolic.
Regarding averting temporal judgment during the church age, you will likely get a wide range of views and opinions.
The Bible says that, as believers, we reap what we sow. So, if we sow to the flesh, we reap corruption. That could include damages to relationships and health, loss of life and liberty, and so on during this lifetime, as well as loss of rewards in eternity.
Last, following the teachings of the Apostles is not a requirement for eternal life.
I am puzzled by a few people that have been associated with Radtke by the GraceBibleStudies.org website. Radtke is well known by some of us, and I have no problem with him, in spite of the lack of a statement of faith. He solidly stands for eternal security.
Charles Clough and John Whitcomb are linked on the site.
Whitcomb has his own website, and his SoF is brief on salvation but long on Christian living. He teaches footwashing as a sacrament, and I find that troubing. In one of his messages, he mentioned being sorry for sins. Most puzzling, he is dogmatic about restored temple sacrifices. He is convinced that they are necessary to cover sins and avert temporal punishments. If so, what averts temporal punishments during the Church Age? He says that pre-cross and during the trib, one has to become a Jew in order to be saved. This sounds hyperdispensational. If one could believe God without becoming a Jew, belief would still be counted. Becoming a Jew required making a commitment to obey the law.
Clough’s SoF, on his Bible Framework website, is vague on salvation. What Jesus did for us gets buried in a paragraph about Israel. Eternal life is not mentioned.
Clough has mentioned the mathematician Robert Hermann. I looked him up, and I find his views controversial. His gospel presentation is full of his math references. Guess what? The math makes it extremely complicated. He literally thinks he can model God’s attributes, which I know is not possible. Hermann makes following the teaching of the Apostles a requirement for salvation, and that tells me he is LS.
yeah confusing jason
it seems like mystical legalism self inflicting righteousness setting on the high powered blend all with dull cutting blades.
its just same ole works for and because of salvation.
I think I figured it out now. It was difficult reading, lol.
Jason, yes, very confusing.
Perhaps it was a reference to Genesis 3:4-5.
“…in who He is and in the words He speaks that first separated us from Him”
That is really confusing. I thought it was our sins that separated us from him. The LS is heresy already, but this is icing on the cake.
One from today:
But, that’s why Jesus came: to offer us the chance to become who we were always meant to be: His pure and Holy child who loves God and one another with all that we are. It was not having faith in God: in who He is and in the words He speaks that first separated us from Him, only by having faith can we be restored to Him and receive the new heart and new nature that Christ died to make possible for us to have by repenting of our sins and asking Him to forgive and change us.
My comment: repenting of sins is not a requirement to receive eternal life. Asking Him to forgive us is not a requirement to receiving eternal life. Asking Him to change us is not a requirement for receiving eternal life.
This is an insidious false gospel message that has works as its focus. The errant reasoning is that if we “ask Jesus to change us,” and we don’t change, we weren’t sincere when we asked Him. No change, no salvation. So, our faith, in this errant view, is in Jesus’ promise to change our lives, rather than in His promise to give us eternal life.
Jason, good question.
Why aren’t they called the Works Coalition?
when a soul Trust Christ Jesus as Their personal saviour all things Spiritual have been given unto them along with seal of Holy Spirit.
Those “all spiritual things” are available to the believer wether they appropriate them or not
live in the light of them walk in them or not.
enjoy them or not.
They belong to the believer no matter what.
The Christian Life is lived by our relationship to Holly Spirit.
it does not matter if a soul has not lived for Christ for 6 months or 6 years they can enjoy their spiritual blessings the same as one who is in fellowship by simply admiting (confessing that sin) they have not been.
Spirituality and Growth are to remain separate in our thinking.
when a soul thinks if i pray more go to church more, witness more, God will bless me.. That is solid works and the believer will never enjoy the Lord That way. Just like the unbeliever will not Trust Christ but must work their way to Heaven.
ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
hath given unto us all things
2 peter 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Jason, nope.
In my mind, I somehow had the Gospel Coalition confused with the Clear Gospel.
I found the following on the website of a false gospel group known as “The Gospel Coalition”:
Paul’s words show that there are practices and lifestyles that, if left unrepented of, can prevent someone from inheriting – that is, having a place in – the kingdom of God. To live as a Christian is to accept God’s authority over our own…
Having said that, it is possible to sin in all kinds of ways in ignorance, rather than willfullly and knowingly. A new Christian might not know that they are called to honor their parents, or that lust is sinful. The key is that when they read in scripture that obedience to God means changing in these areas, they will work to do so.
My comment: Nonsense. Turning from known sin is not a requirement for receiving eternal life. Nor does ignorance absolve anyone of sin. This false theology teaches that Christ’s atonement covers sins, but only those that are not willful or intentional. And, while they “work to do so,” how is this not works? What if someone realizes something is wrong and doesn’t “work to do so?”
This is works for salvation theology, plain and simple.
And many of them fall into GES, hyperdisp, KJVO, conspiracy theories. I have noticed dreiher2 videos lately, and he is GES.
along with what Johninc said for myself personally unless youtube a preacher/teacher has a website doctrinal statement, a clear gospel presentation. Elder board and congregation i dont bother listening. for me if not have the above they all go wondering off into strange doctrines has been my experience…
John, welcome and thanks for your question.
I didn’t watch the video. I get lots of requests to listen to sermons and watch videos, and I generally cannot accommodate them. I also do not want to expose our readers to random material.
If the video is a gospel video, and what the video teaches passes the following three tests, it might be true. Otherwise, no chance:
1. Is it consistent with eternal life by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone?
2. Is it consistent with eternal security?
3. Is it consistent with assurance of eternal life, based on God’s promises alone (i.e., it is not internally-focused on changes in attitudes, behavior, etc.)?
Any thoughts on some of the comments on this video? Any answers?
(link removed by administrator)
RAS – thank you, I think I needed to learn patience more than most. Still do. Thank you for your prayers for my family, you and everyone else who prays, it is very appreciated always.
The lady that you are dealing with sadly doesn’t realize that although they claim they follow no man, they have learned their system of theology only from men and basically their family tree starts with men like Augustine.
They don’t find their system in His Word as much as they claim they do.
Again, I’m thankful for the fellowship of the saints here, it’s becoming mighty hard to find fellowship.
More about the Calvinist movie…I hear you can’t get tickets even if you wanted to because they will be handed out randomly to people chosen before filming began. You might even have a ticket now but you may never know. Oh, and there is limited seating.
Jason, oddly I’m seeing that (on the free pass) some, although I agree with RAS, I don’t think it’s going to happen too often. I think the truth is simply that error is going to find commonality with error vs. truth. Both of them are in error and we are not somewhere in the middle (as some claim).
Holly, I am sure you understand more about patience than I. You and your son remain in my prayers. Jason, a couple of the people I am referring to will not claim the title Calvinist or even 5 pointer but are constantly talking about the “doctrines of grace”. The lady who accused me of being my own god constantly says she follows no man but she copies and pastes quotes from Pink, Gil, Spurgeon and others more often then she quotes scripture. And when she does quote scripture it more often than not says something different than what she thinks it does. I don’t think they would give a real Arminian a free pass all though I know what you mean…Calvinist “scholars” often call Arminians confused brethren.
But these Calvinists seem happy to tell their Arminian brethren that Calvinism is not an essential. So why don’t we get a pass?
Here’s what the majority of them think regarding whether you watch the movie or not. If you do not, you are likely reprobate. I’ve been told that because I don’t believe the tenets of TULIP are biblical, then I am a reprobate. This is basically what they do think, since as Spurgeon said (pp), Calvinism IS the gospel.
Ras, why did I laugh with the patience comment?… I get it.
I was raised in a home where my dad was a gentleman, and showed all of us how to be treated. He spoke up if someone spoke coarsely in front of us, opened the door for all of us girls on the way anywhere. He pulled out our chairs. My point is, that the secular world isn’t as vicious as the religious Pharisees are. But, take heart, there are onlookers, and these people aren’t discrediting you, they are discrediting themselves in the eyes of those who want to see, want to hear. You’ll not hear about all of it, but trust me, people watch to see if someone answers patiently, gently, using the Word aptly. And when our opponent is calling us names, they show their lack of wisdom or even godliness. They are mini-accusers of the brethren.
Sometimes I tell them the job is already taken so perhaps they might use the Word instead of name calling? 🙂
2 Cor 11:12-15, Keep it up!
“I suppose by their logic, if I miss it, then it was God’s will. And, if I see it, then it was God’s will.”
But if we be corpses floating down a river” according to theor system of thought logic cant know God’s will unless God infuses his will to see movie or not.
Then there’s the problem with movies electricity and water. How is that going to work?
I think they were predestined to give those thumbs up.
And, I suppose by their logic, if I miss it, then it was God’s will. And, if I see it, then it was God’s will.
I remember hearing about the Calvinist movie. I think I heard that Sproul gave it 5 thumbs up, Piper gave it 6 and Washer said if you miss this movie you better check yourself. Could be just rumors though.
I recently got accused of being my own god and thinking I saved myself for being a “free willer”. What really set them off was when I pointed out that Reformed soteriology was no different than that of the RCC. It started with a 5 pointer appealing to Phil 1:6 to show that a “true” believer will not fall away. When I put the verse in context i.e. that Philippians was a “thank you” letter and the good work started was support of Paul’s ministry the name calling began. I pointed out that justification is not a work that is started to be completed later and if they believe it is then they really do have the same soteriology as the RCC. The floodgates of abuse opened wide (out right lies, misquotes, was even called an Arminian -Jesuit, anything to discredit me in the eyes of onlookers) along with the usual long list of proof text many like to copy and paste without reading a few verses in front and back of to get context. One thing I noticed, although I was already aware of, is that many think faith is a righteous act and not as scripture says counted as righteousness. This is why the hate free will (I prefer the term volition but…) and they think faith is the gift. Romans 5:18 says the free gift came upon all men just as the judgment came upon all men (all is the same group). If the gift is faith then all men would have faith but the gift is by grace salvation which is through faith (as it is in Eph). Faith is man’s responsibility it is not gifted. Because they believe that faith is a righteous act they think “free will” is self righteousness and therefore blasphemous. To be honest I’ve just about had it trying to reach some of these people even onlookers. I need more patience but don’t really look forward to getting it. Can we go home yet?
Keith, someone posted a video (which I haven’t finished watching) but the beginning of the video has Sproul saying free will is blasphemy. These puffed up men…
What most of those mean that contrast heart faith with head faith, or use the term mental assent, is basically a James 2 sort of faith. Keep in mind they of course read James 2 to say these people did not possess eternal life because they didn’t behave as if they had. They of course use the demons argument, of course they believe, they know Him. Like you said John, salvation isn’t offered to them.
Those in James who were useless to others who needed help was a faith without any works. One that doesn’t demonstrate to others that they are walking worthy, not to be saved, or stay saved, but because it’s what we should do because of the great love He has shown for us.
Many have difficulty with that passage because of the word justified. Justified unto what? Justified to whom? That helps a lot, because we can see they were already called brethren, brother, sister, beloved… they were also called other things that weren’t good names regarding their behavior. It didn’t mean they only had ‘mental assent’ but that they were hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. They needed chastised and reminded of what they should do and of what Jesus had done for them. These believers fought and warred, and lusted, and KILLED, and yet James said the SPIRIT dwelled in them (James 4)… Calvinists and load-ship teachers will try to say the opposite, even though the Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit states it in each and every chapter of James. I pray people start asking questions of the Lord as they read the Word. Who is this speaking to Lord? What is this about? What kind of salvation? (and so forth) and look at context…
Keith, very good. It took me a minute, but very good.
The thing that concerns me is that those who do not watch the movie to its conclusion will tragically deceive themselves into thinking that they’re watching the movie when they really aren’t.
And you must make Hollywood your lord, by being a hardcore movie fan. You must commit yourelf to at least 2 movies per year, and that includes the future Narnia movies and the Left Behinds. And you must promote movies to all your friends and relatives. And you must worship Kirk Cameron as one of your heroes. OK, enough silliness.
One of these days, they might make a movie about persecution. I wouldn’t be surprised.
If you don’t persevere to the end of the movie, you never had a real ticket to it.
Also popcorn WILL accompany a genuine ticket, and if not present then there was no real movie ticket to begin with, only a spurious one.
Keith, I hadn’t heard of it, but I’m not surprised.
Has anyone seen the preview for the new Calvinist movie? It seems that RT has become so popular that its adherents are using the arts to push the idea that man does not have the free will to choose to believe the gospel, but yet he apparently can choose to persevere in faithfulness and good works, thereby “proving” that God chose him to be one of the elect.
Hyperdisp vs GES
Hyperdisp = Paul only
GES = John only
This Robert Breaker guy says he is not a hyperdisp but he goes Paul only, with a hell threat. If you reject Paul, you reject Jesus. If you follow Jesus, you follow him into hell. He plays the You Are Damned game real hard. What a mess.
The hyperdisp god abrogates his law and deceives his followers. That is a god I don’t trust.
And why stop with Paul? One could draw another arbitrary line at 630 AD. The law is back on. The Church Age ended with the Migration. We are in the Mosque Age, lol. There are many ways to go nuts with this.
The Biblical God fulfills his law and rewards his followers. That is the God I trust.
Bob Breaker: I’m of Paul
Bob Wilkin: I’m of John
Paul: both Bobs are carnal
I saw one of those “lockup” shows on TV last night. There was a man who was a jail guard who read a statement at the formal sentencing hearing of the man who had been convicted of murdering his brother. The convicted murderer was receiving a death sentence.
The guard, in his statement, said that he and his family were going to have a big party on the day the sentence was carried out, knowing that the murderer was now in hell.
My comment: It does not sound like the guard understands God’s plan of salvation. If not, I pray that he hears and understands the gospel so that he might believe and be saved.
Jason, the Bible tells us that Satan tries to take away the seed that has been planted. False gospel substitutes and add-ons are one of the ways that he goes about that.
Understanding and believing that eternal life is a gift, without cost or obligation to the recipient, is essential.
I can’t help having thoughts about the SoF of my own.
The gospel of John indeed often emphasizes belief and eternal life without explicit reference to other content. I think the reason is that many deceived souls already know the unmentioned content, and what they need to hear is that eternal life is free. A Roman Catholic already knows about the cross, as high Christology has been drummed into him. Give him John 3:16, and you have given him the gospel. Many know 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 but few understand that John 3:16 means exactly what it says, with no qualifications.
Yet the Gospel of John as a whole includes the account of Jesus’ prayer, passion, crucifixion, and resurrection. It is a Gospel, after all. It includes the high Christology of John 1 as well.
It is a promise, but not promise-only.
Even if you give the complete gospel to an unreached soul, the one thing most likely to be misunderstood is that Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe him for it. It is the first area in which a wolf will confuse them. It is where I got confused.
From GES Sof
“Assurance is of the essence of believing in Jesus for everlasting life. That is, as long as a person believes in Jesus for everlasting life, he knows he has everlasting life (John 5:24 ; 6:35 , 47; 11:27 ; 1 John 5:9-13).”
Now the above Statement under assurance from GES Statement of Faith. How could a believer soul know that they have eternal life as a present permanent possession sealed by Holy Spirit?
They can’t know because it is based on their continual believing.
We have eternal life because God’s Word says so and God cannot lie and his character can never be compromised.
So what about a believer soul who ends up in a motorcycle accident with a head injury and doesn’t know which end is up. So according to GES sof they dont have eternal life because they do not know ?.
see how much confusion this creates?
head faith heart faith confusion.
God is not the author of confusion
God wants us to know.
Assurance of salvation our perfect postion in Christ Jesus before the throne of grace never changes. That is were Growth comes from.
Growth comes from appropriateing the gift of righteousness.
That provision belongs to the believer who placed faith in Christ Jesus finished work whether they appropriate it or not their postion remains secure even though our relationship to our postion may change at anytime we are either Spiritual or Carnal the postion remains secure.
Romans chapter 5
Curtis
You discovered a new species of wolf. Lupus decruciatus. The crossless bully.
What is this Bob Wilkin week?
someone following me around.?
I was in a church were the gospel was not given but pulpit hammered away at sound doctrine and false teachers. yet no gospel given.
How can i know sound doctrine without the Gospel?
How can I know the Gospel without sound doctrine?
Then was said to me I need to read a Bob Wilkin book?
What the world does Bob Wilkin have to do with my eternal destiny?
A Bob Wilkin book?
Why should God let me into Heaven?
because I read a Bob Wilkin book?
How is the Christian life lived ?
By reading a Bob Wilkin book?
Then another church talking to pastor on phone after failure to clearly tell me how a soul is saved. said he is a Bob Wilkin follower and old school DTS calvanist.
Found it interesting how gospel of grace tracts and reformed theology books were on same table.
How does that work?
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
How did you receive Christ Jesus?
How do you Walk (live) the Christian life?
Spirituality is in our thinking
Spirituality and Growth separate
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Application of The Truth of God’s Word the promises of God appropriated to experiences of Life produces exceptable works.
everything in the Christian life that counts for eternity is provided and produced for us by the Holy Spirit..
We Receive Eternal Life by believing what Jesus did was for you.
The Christian Life is lived by our response to the Holy Spirit through the Word of God through the abundance of the Grace of God.
The Holy Spirit desires us to Yeild. The Holy Spirit gets ahold of us in our thinking through the Word of God. We need only yeild collapse enjoy the Lord Jesus through His Word.
The Written Word of God.
The Living Word of God
The Spoken Word of God.
And The Holy Spirit will take care of all the rest by the Law of the Spirit rom 8
Head Faith Heart Faith comes from the reformation debate Calvanism Arminianism what we need is a reformation from the reformation
here for an example :
a 0 point calvanist thats not an arminian
a Non denominational Fundamental Evangelical Bible Believer Believing the Bible Teaches Eternal Security of The spiritual and carnal believer in Christ.
That statement wipes out Calvanism and Arminianism.
for neither Calvanism or Arminianism have a message for the Holy Spirit to use for souls to Trust Christ Jesus by Faith and know that A Soul receives the Free Gift of eternal life the moment they believe The Gospel of Grace.
the teachings only can produce followers of a system of thought. A system of thought to compartmentalize scripture.
Buying Book’s Book’s Book’s buy another book enter a program.
Head Faith Heart Faith as an example.
Faith and Belief are synonymous Heart and Mind are synonymous. It is the object of our Faith Christ Jesus.
Thinking and Thoughts are absolutely essential for Spiritualy and Growth.
The Spirit of God gets a hold of us in our thinking as we study the Word of God. At any moment we are either Spiritual or Carnal in our Thinking we are either for or against God. There is no middle Ground.
another simple way to knock out Calvanism and Arminianism is ask
How did you receive the Holy Spirit?
both systems of thought would answer
Huh?
Bingo!
Those who build their soteriology on a fool’s argument are definitely not enduring clear doctrine.
Thanks for the response.
Jason, sticking with what is clear is a good approach.
Wow, I never realized the confusion that these manuscripts caused. Even the KJV went with the Alexandrian texts, go figure. Drove the point about sticking by what is clear home.
I found the reference to hominids humorous.
gosoel = gospel, my bad.
I will give it a read. I have never found an analysis that satisfied me completely. I always fall back on interpreting what is cloudy by what is clear.
Jason, you might like reading the extensive analysis of this passage at Clear Gospel. You may have problems with the formatting. If so, select the section in which you are interested, copy it and paste it into a Word document. See below:
http://old.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=10&c_id=69
I find it interesting that the vain fool is the same one who says that he will show his faith by his works if James shows his faith without works. This does not make any sense, unless James is aguing against both perverting the gosoel and being useless.
Vicki, I think there is a difference between believing a set of facts and acting on that belief. The Bible tells us we are saved by believing the gospel, not by acting on our beliefs.
I am very happy that you asked about “demon faith.”
First, the Bible says demons believe there is one God. That isn’t the same as believing the gospel. It is simply monotheism. However, the Bible makes it clear that demons both recognize, and in certain cases obey, Jesus. See Matthew 8:28-32.
Second, demons can’t be saved. Jesus did not die for THEIR sins. Jesus paid for the sins of Adam’s race, of which demons are not a part. Demons are beyond redemption.
Third, the “demons believe and tremble” argument in James appears to have been the hypothetical ramblings of an imaginary vain man, or fool.
I’ll have to think on that a bit, thanks. Questions: do you believe assenting to a set of facts about something is the same as acting on those facts personally? IOW, can one assent to facts on something and not act on it personally? Hope I’m making it clear. What about the devils? The Bible says they believe and tremble. What kind of belief would you call that since they obviously aren’t going to heaven. Thanks.
I have had my own thoughts on the heart vs head thing. Many illustrations of faith are defective.
Take getting in a wheelbarrow for example. Assent here is agreeing that the acrobat is able to roll you along the wire unharmed. Trust is getting in the wheelbarrow. If you agreed that the acrobat was reliable but did not get in, you had the wrong kind of faith. But this illustration is defective. Jesus is not asking you to get in a wheelbarrow but to merely assent to the gospel.
Another example is crossing a bridge. If you assent to the bridge but do not cross, you get nowhere. Again, defective.
The problem with these examples is that they all involve an active element. With the gospel, the trusting is in the assenting, and there is no distinction. He who agrees with the gospel trusts the Savior, by definition. The belief itself is the act of trust. It couldn’t be simpler. Adding works would not be trust.
Vicki, welcome back! I am encouraged that you are still here.
Regarding your comment:
A person who hasn’t placed faith in Jesus for salvation has not excercised either intellectual assent (“head faith”) or heart faith. He simply hasn’t placed his faith in Jesus as his Savior at all. If someone believes the gospel, he will understand and believe that Christ died for HIS sins. That is, that the atonement that Christ provided is effectual for HIM. Believing the gospel means understanding and believing that it is for you.
The reason I make no distinction between head faith and heart faith is because the Bible doesn’t.
If there actually were a difference between “head faith” and “heart faith,” one’s assurance of eternal life would have to rest on his determining whether or not he had the right “kind” of faith.
I haven’t posted in quite some time but feel the need to comment on something. Why do you insist that there is no difference between intellectual/mental assent and faith/belief? I’ll never get that because it’s so obviously false to me. I know the difference, I’ve experiences the difference. Bob Wilkin told me there is only one kind of belief and I seem to be hearing the same thing here. That’s just not true and it should be obvious that it’s not true.. There are plenty of people who will assent that God exists and even that Jesus existed and died for the sins of the world but they haven’t placed faith in Him for salvation. I’m sure you have an answer for everything worked out (I’ve seen a few novel interpretations of Scripture here) and may think you’re right about everything but I’m going to have to disagree with that. I’ve seen before how people manipulate the Bible to support a particular belief, especially among Catholics. And even if whoever decides whether this gets posted or not decides not to, at least one person will see it. I’ve been coming and reading posts though haven’t posted and I still find problems with some of what I hear here.
Sadly, I have known a man who named the name of Christ and thought that poverty earns salvation. I had started to devour his books and stopped because I could take it no more. To him, economic improvement would actually be bad in itself. The best economic system in his view would be an austerity program. Austere, just like the monks. Oh, but they had such in the country of his origin. He railed against it, calling it Satanic. Figure that.
I just want the simple gospel, because it saves. Neither behavioral nor economic improvements are automatic.
Here is another, from a Washington Post article entitled “Christians are More Than Twice as Likely to Blame a Person’s Poverty on Lack of Effort.”
A couple of the comments in the article, quoting a historian named Helen Rhee, were as follows:
To the premillenialists, Rhee said, “The world is already lost. Things are going to get worse … The betterment of society is very intangible. You don’t know whether it’s going to happen or not. It’s a very difficult thing to do. You’ve got to just focus on what is important – that is, salvation if the soul.” That is, preach the gospel. Evangelism.”
Saving an individual’s soul by correcting his personal behavior will do him far more good than fixing an economic structure, if the world is about to end anyway, Rhee explained. “They are being compassionate.”
My comments: Possessing eternal life is infinitely more important than a person’s economic circumstances. So, any compassion without sharing the gospel is temporal.
The writer’s understanding of how one receives eternal life seems to be confused. On one hand, she references the gospel. Then, she talks about saving someone’s soul by correcting his behavior. No one ever received eternal life, nor contributed to receiving eternal life, by making any corrections to his personal behavior.
The false distinction was drummed into me so many times, ministry after ministry. InterVarsity, martyrs, Hanegraaff, his guests, internet forums. Heart vs Head.
Herbert Armstrong said that Jesus died not to free us from the law but to empower us to keep the law. LS teaches exactly the same thing. I was never really freed from Herb until I came here.
Back in 2000, I was posting on a forum on Black Voices, now defunct. It was full of lordshippers and pagans. I was repeatedly told to stay out of black people’s business, which I should have heeded. I was not reconciling anything. Creflo Dollar was popular. Hanegraaff was hated. I was part of the confusion.
On that forum there was one lordshipper who called himself a prophet. He knew who was born again. He knew I was saved. I disagreed with his sin list and was reprobate. He promoted Stanley, taught eternal security. I said I believed. He called it lip service. I had failed my probation. He was wrong about me the first time. Some prophet.
Bilateral contract salvation (aka “Lordship Salvation”) has become the false front for Christianity.
Consider the following quotes from a June 29, 2016 article in The Atlantic, entitled “Just Another Sinner Born Again:”
Evangelicals have distinctive ideas about what constitutes religious conversion, which they call being “born again.” To be born again, one must make a decision to pray, repent sin, and accept Jesus’s salvation. Most evangelicals look to such a conversion as the decisive mark of whether someone is Christian or not; some regard Roman Catholics and mainline Protestants who have not been through this experience as not really Christian. Being born again is a matter of the heart rather than intellectual assent or institutional affiliation.
My comment: One doesn’t need to say a prayer or repent of sins to receive eternal life. Eternal life is receiced by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Anyone who has believed in Jesus as Savior is born again, irrespective of religious affiliation, or lack thereof. And, there is no difference between “intellectual assent” and belief.
Jason, very good points!
Chastisement inspection is no better. Persecution inspection is the worst. Causes martyr complexes. Inverts the cross, turns the atonement on its head. Speaks with a perceived authority of one bearing the marks of Christ and yet has the same effect as all other lordshipping. I see it all the time in promotions of organizations said to be supporting the “persucuted church”, essentially modern day “church fathers”. They have no clue what gospel they are dying for. The implied message is invariably: if you aren’t living like the martyrs, you are not truly saved. I personally labored under this deluded guilt trip.
Fruit Inspection only causes Spirtual Pride, arogence or lack of assurance.
Thats what happens looking at ourselves our walk instead of Christ Jesus and His Finished work.
With lack of assurance as Holly said you can not know how to make deciples.
Fruit inspecting on the outside may seem to work, but as Curtis mentioned, there is no perfection, so then what? And what may appear to be good fruit might be rotten inside (as in the false prophets of Matthew 7). And self-examination? (Always induced by mistaken understanding of 2 Cor 13:5). It just cannot every work based on works, since works can’t play a part in receiving the free gift of eternal life. They never seem to realize the irony. This is why people don’t know how to make disciples. They haven’t become disciples really, because they do not know the truth.
Yeah and no matter how low I would set the standards of myself looking for fruit that still would be mickey mouse to God’s Standards which is perfection.
I would have to admit failure failure after failure.
We don’t live the Christian Life by trying to live the Christian Life.
as believers God has given us the Holy Spirit. That does everything for us perfectly.
Just as the Lord Jesus did not use His Devine Nature but Did the Father’s will apart from Him doing of His ownself.
Following is an excerpt from a comment on another site:
There is much of grace in James and I firmly believe grace alone saves and is not necessarily accompanied by works. Yet it is Christ’s will we produce “fruit” even “much fruit”. To have no fruit, especially after much time in Christ, is no doubt an aberration, a strong indication something is wrong…even a lack of true salvation through faith in Christ alone.
My comment: So, should we examine our fruit (or that of others) to determine whether or not we (or they) have “a lack of true salvation through faith in Christ alone?”
This is utter nonsense. This is fruit inspection 101. The source of assurance reflected in this comment is WORKS, despite the fact that the writer says that faith is not necessarily accompanied by works.
The writer is speaking out of both sides of his mouth, and muddying the gospel in the process.
All these people who speak of works truly have not examined their works. The ones that do, do it as the Pharisee in the square; “I thank God I am not like these sinners”, but if they actually considered their own thoughts, or imperfect actions. Evidently God grades on a scale in their case.
Phil, I actually did have one of those guys one time who did recount his ‘works’. He talked about what he did for the poor, and how he gave here and there and fasted and prayed, etc. I was actually so instantly sad for him, it was like watching those hand puppets, the left hand telling the right hand what it was doing and the other one saying S’aright. 🙂
These people though keep other believers from growing with the testimony of their own works. They don’t point people to Christ, but they point people to them. Then some point people to Christ and His Word. The simple needed things that people just aren’t getting. Christ and His Word.
Yes God is always a perfect gentleman..
God does not force a soul to accept the Free gift of eternal life by placing simple faith/believing in the finished work of Christ.
many false doctrine teach inability to respond like a dead person. But that is false. We are created in the image of God with a free will volition to think and choose.
“dead in trespasses and sins?
if a dead person is dead as in a corpse how does a corpse aquire trespasses and sins?
how does a dead person have a nature?
how could a dead person be born?
Ephesians 2:3
To clarify my last statement: It takes a believer to do good works in the Spirit. The Spirit never forces good works in a believer, nor is it automatic.
John, concerning your email comment. How many and which works does the Holy Spirit produce? This is what the legalists and LS’ers. used to ridicule we who actually hold with saved by grace alone thru faith alone. But they will soon change the subject if you ask them to give an account of all THEIR repenting, good works and changes in THEIR lives, and then ask them if they are sure they have done enough repenting of sins, changes and righteousness in their lives so that they God will accept and eternally save them. I would ask them based on their works if they are CERTAIN they are saved?? Are they certain they have changed their lives and are living righteousness enough to be saved.?
If they ridicule me for believing OSAS by grace alone. I simply say that I am not saved by my repenting or forsaking my sins, or living a godly or righteous life. Instead, I am saved once and for all time because Christ paid for all my sins; that they were buried with Him, and I have been raised with him and have received all his righteousness and sinlessness as a free gift. My salvation, my justification is finished; it’s a done deal. Paul tell us in Ephesians 2 that we have already been raised and seated with Him (spiritually for now). But from God’s view we are already there in eternity. There is nothing we can add to Christ complete saving work. This is my answer to the faith + this or that LS’rs, and it shuts their mouths because they don’t have an answer for the complete, finished saving works of Christ.
These LS’er, Calvinists or whoever, either don’t really understand the full meaning of the gospel of our salvation, or they are so steeped in their arrogance and pride that they have to show that they are one-up on the other guy. They want to show they are way up here and you are way down there. They want to weigh others down with works requirements, yet they don’t want to look in the mirror to see themselves to see if they measure up to the works requirement they place on others. Sound familiar? There have always been Pharasees with their false gospel ready to pounce on believers, and today is no different.
Sure, I believe the Holy Spirit produces good works in the believer life, but these works are not a condition or requirement for salvation.
Saving faith produces the works of the Holy Spirit in one’s life.
This flawed line of reasoning means that behavioral changes for the better are the only source of assurance for eternal life.
Romans 6:23 says the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. It does not say that the gift of God is positive behavioral changes through Jesus Christ our Lord.
That is precisely why a personal testimony that centers in one’s changed life points people away from Christ.
A believer who is walking in the Spirit will manifest the fruits of the Spirit. But, believers are exhorted to walk in the Spirit, so it is not automatic.
The people James wrote to were saved by faith (James 1:18), yet some did not have works.
It is possible for a saved person to be a hearer ONLY and not a doer (James 1:22)
The Holy Spirit produces Faithfulness. Not saving Faith.
the end of Galatians 5:22 should read Faithfulness not Faith.
rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Without Faith it is impossible to please God..
So how does that work if Holy Spirit produces saving faith?
That would mean everyone goes to heaven because Holy Spirit makes no mistakes and looses none?
It is easier than saving Faith.. Heaven is a gift to all those who believe.
There is no saving merit in water baptism.
water baptism is an identification principle of what has taken place Spiritualy.
Why did Jesus get Baptized?
The following comment came via e-mail to Expreacherman:
“He that believes and is baptized”. “Faith without works is dead”. “Bear fruits in keeping with repentance”.. you are seriously misleading people to hell. Saving faith produces the works of the Holy Spirit in ones life.
Saved by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone.
My comment: Which works of the Holy Spirit does saving faith produce? How many? How soon?
This commenter says he is saved by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone, and yet he also claims that if someone does not have some undefined works in his life, he does not have “saving faith. This is completely contradictory. What is the source of his assurance? Christ, or the works that the Holy Spirit is purportedly producing in his life?
Indeed, I noticed a lot of Spurgeon quotes, as well other questionable sources. Spurgeon is the “prince” of lordshippers.
I browsed Middletown Bible Church before I came here last year, and fell into Zeller’s stinkin’ thinkin’.
Some internet comments of the past questioned Lou’s stand against LS, and I can’t remember where I found them.
I noticed that he is free with his use of bible translations, notwithstanding a KJVO leaning position. He even quoted the New Lordship Translation.
I guess this is a double-minded, unstable man.
jason, we are not comfortable with Lou’s site, due to his tolerance for Charles Spurgeon and George Zeller. Both Spurgeon and Zeller attempt to eviscerate the gospel.
The gospel according to Lou Martuneac
“However, Stegall’s tendency to downplay the centrality of 1 Corinthians 15 is still evident today from the fact that on his church website there is absolutely no mention of 1 Corinthians 15 in his explanation of the gospel, even though numerous other verses are cited. This is the classic patchwork gospel approach used to define the gospel. But if the definition of Paul’s gospel is based on a synthesis of many Scriptures instead of an exegesis of 1 Corinthians 15, the search for the gospel message becomes largely a matter of speculation and human opinion. Furthermore, such an approach creates more problems than it solves. For example, who determines which passages to incorporate into the patchwork gospel synthesis? What Bible passages make the cut and which ones don’t? Who determines how many times a truth has to be mentioned before it becomes essential to the gospel synthesis? And how is the authoritative number determined? What if there is disagreement as to which passages to incorporate into the gospel synthesis? Bob Wilkin poses several more valid questions to consider, such as: “which passages do we link? How do we know which passages give us one or more of the essentials? How do we know when we have found all of the passages and all of the essentials?”10 Another problem with the patchwork and partial gospel espoused by Stegall and Hixson is that it fails to explain the passages of Scripture which specifically include, for example, Christ’s burial in the gospel message…”
Lou’s negative comments linger on several blogs on the internet and are not helpful. His unbalanced attention to one passage is hard to understand. His railings against Duluth are shameful. I had to mention this because I have noticed that he was once an active contributor to this site, and was helpful in dealing with the crossless gospel and GES. Men like Hixson, Rokser, and Stegall have been a blessing to this community of believers in God’s free grace, and Curtis and I have recently had a chance to meet up with Randy at a Duluth sponsored conference.
Now I don’t know what problem Lou has with “synthesis”, comparing scripture with scripture. Classic doctrines like the Trinity have been exegeted this way. Understanding that God’s gift of eternal life cannot be added to is likewise clarified by numerous passages. Complicating the gospel with extra baggage is the very thing we try to avoid. Lou brings up unfounded charges of paganism and triangle worship against a fellow believer and causes division, which reminds me of a few obnoxious individuals who have personally tried to put me under the law in the past. This is another person to mark and avoid.
Jason – if only we would really apply 1 Thessalonians 5:21 and Acts 17:11, along with 1 Timothy 4:16 and Heb 5:12-14, He will keep us as we continue in His Word (John 8:31-32; Luke 10:38-42). It’s a continual process to compare His Word according to men’s words (1 Cor 4:6).
Jon,
Jack also was extremely kind and patient with me, and I thank God for the beloved in Him. I was so blessed also to read Tom Cucuzza’s ‘Secure Forever’ book. I downloaded it to my kindle then was ‘stuck’ in a doctor’s waiting room for almost two hours, but what a blessing to read while I was there. Praying your father-in-law might still be affected by God’s Word which is plentiful in Tom’s book.
The reason they don’t have discernment is spelled out in Heb 5:12-14.
Hmmm, if Joel Osteen thinks God is too good to send people to hell, then why does he think God is not good enough to save people who don’t repent of sin? And where does he think the unrepentant of sin go? Maybe he just says it because he hears it said so much. Maybe he is as double-minded about hell as he is about grace.
“Even people who are clear on the gospel who sit under false teaching are likely to have it rub off on them.” -johninnc
I am a living example of this. Enough reform in name only theology rubbed off on me to wet a towel. Not any more.
Brian, thanks for bringing this up. Yes, Joel Osteen has the same gospel as Billy Graham and other similar “works salvationists.”
People often overlook this, while criticizing Osteen on other fronts.
From what I have seen several times, Joel Osteen closes his sermons with a ‘salvation’ message for people to “repent of their sins” and “make Jesus Lord of their lives.” Osteen is often criticized for weak/incorrect theology in other areas, but his false ‘salvation’ message unfortunately passes under most peoples radar. It’s basically the same at then end of every sermon.
Jon, it’s hard to say how some people can hear grace and works, side-by-side, and not seem to be able to tell the difference. I don’t know. Some people are just unable to come to grips with the fact that churchianity is often not real. Even people who are clear on the gospel who sit under false teaching are likely to have it rub off on them.
I am very thankful to have found this website several years ago. It was not by accident I’m sure. So thankful to finally see and hear the gospel of grace in my early 40’s. Jack was very kind and encouraging to me, in spite of what a dolt I can be. It is so scary to me to think of all the people who need to hear the Good News and sit in “church” pews every week and never hear it. Or hear a false version of it. Grace is unmerited favor. Salvation is a free gift. Jesus’ death,burial and resurrection paid for ALL of my/our sins. Christ’s righteousness is credited to my account when I put my faith in Him. Eternal life lasts forever and once you are saved there is nothing you can do that will send you to hell. I never heard any of this in a Mennonite church or an Evangelical Free church,etc.
I once shared Tom’s Secure Forever book to my Father in law and he said it seemed like good doctrine, but didn’t say much else about it. They continue to attend a Mennonite church. He has talked about head faith vs. heart faith. They now tell us they enjoy watching Joel Osteen pretty much every week. I just wonder why they don’t have more discernment?
Jon, I agree with what you are saying, and rejoicing with you that you are out of the false teaching! I know you are very thankful for that. I’ve seen many use the word ‘obey’ never realizing in relation to the gospel it’s believing, (also see in Gal 5 – those who were hindered from obeying the truth). I am exceptionally thankfully lately as I see so many in deception on social media, seems to be growing by leaps and bounds.
Johninnc, that’s how I understood it when you first commented 🙂
Holly, I agree, John’s point was valid. Obedience to the gospel is Biblical. My point was that the chances of them meaning it that way was slim to none. I realize now he was not trying to give them a pass. I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I am in an area in Canada with a lot of Mennonites(being a former one myself) around. I am not surrounded by Baptist’s so that is not something I can speak to. I think false gospels are damaging no matter who is promoting them. I am sure we all agree with that.
Holly, I was equating obeying the gospel to believing the gospel, as in Romans 10:16-17.
And, I do not think the Mennonites understand the truth. I do not give them the benefit of the doubt, anymore than I give Billy Graham, Charles Spurgeon, the Southern Baptist Convention, or John MacArthur the benefit of the doubt. They all teach false gospels.
Jon, don’t think John was giving the Mennonites credit (or at least how I saw it), he was just commenting they could be right in only one area, obeying the gospel = believing the gospel, and likely he was citing Romans 10:16-17.
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
I agree with you both, the Mennonites don’t understand the truth, they have added works to the gospel which is accursed.
Sure, I’ll take any pointers I can get.
The late Jack Weaver set all of this up, so I have been trying to keep up with it, although I am not very tech savvy.
Maybe someone with programming skills could volunteer and fix the problem. Depending on the technologies, I could research how to move the reply box. This could involve simply moving a textarea tag in a HTML or PHP file.
Brad, I’m not sure how to move the comment box.
Getting too deep into anabaptist history is hardly a step above “church” history. There are lots of baptists who go deep into it. If the Mennonites are representative of the anabaptist movement, there is not much there.
Wow Jon, the mind games being played in that quote are amazing. They are essentially saying “Eternal security is true, but is conditional upon a person’s actions”. In other words, your salvation is secure until you sin.
These truly are the days of rampant apostacy. Satan is getting more and more subtle in his works for salvation messages.
On another topic, seeing as the comments on this website have been reversed recently (with the most recent being at the top), can you also put the comment box at the top as well?
Jon, I am almost certain you are correct as to their intentions. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.
And, the statement that you quoted doesn’t sound like good news to me either.
Well John, I think they should have stated that belief and obedience to the gospel are interconnected then. Their statement was very open to interpretation. Knowing that most Mennonites believe you can lose your salvation(Arminian), I think you are giving them too much credit.
Here is a very telling statement from an anabaptist website of what Mennonites believe: “The Scriptures teach that redemption is all of God, but salvation is conditional and based upon a conscious act of our will in the exercise of faith in Jesus Christ. The Scriptures also teach that a person who continues to exercise saving faith in Jesus Christ is secure. But when a person begins to neglect his spiritual life he will come to the place where he is not truly exercising saving faith in Jesus Christ. He may continue to say he believes, but it is only a verbal belief and not a conscious exercise of the will to live for God. That is all that saving faith is, a conscious exercise of the will to always do what we believe the Bible teaches. It is also obeying the voice of the Spirit in areas where the Scriptures are silent.
When a person continues to habitually practice sin, he “ceases to be a believer” and is no longer a Christian. So the statement “The believer is eternally secure” is a correct statement. It is the definition of who is a believer that must be answered.”
That is from an article titled the Security of the Believer. Doesn’t sound like Good News to me.
Jon, that would be true, only in one sense: Obeying the gospel means to believe the gospel. Any meaning beyond this could be implying false works “salvation.”
Not really an internet comment but a slogan I saw on a local Mennonite church sign. The sign said: “Belief and obedience are interconnected.”
Jason
we are all natural born legalist.
bent towards the spirit of Cain
Even the atheist by denying God have deified themselves as their own god
Even my own thinking regresses if I am not careful. It is good news that receiving eternal life is not a process.
Jason, there are quite a few out there who claim to teach against LS, while embracing one of the primary tenets of LS – “a true Christian will…”
I even encountered a video that exposed “lordship salvation errors” and yet it taught one by quoting “works meet for repentance” out of context and teaching that the changed life results from getting saved. Even some who recognize lordship as heresy are not free of lordship.
Yes, it is church of Christ John, but as we know, even though Loadship teachers may ‘say’ they don’t teach any works, it’s the same thing, these Church of Christ false teachers at least are up front about their accursed gospel although they don’t rightly handle His Word. The others are sneaky and don’t really say what they mean, and of course dishonest in handling God’s Word.
Holly, 2 Corinthians 7 is a “go to” passage for Lordship “salvationists.” How is a nonbeliever supposed to muster up a Godly sorrow?
Holly, it sounds like the false “Church of Christ” religion.
Down in this internet commenter’s expansion of his corrupted gospel he says (just as I mentioned above – they use Scripture spoken to believers and use it out of context):
Repentance then is produced by Godly sorrow (2 Corinthians 7:10) which >>>leads to a change of heart and a change of mind, which is the beginning of a changed life… one that is dedicated to God.
No, repentance in 2 Cor 7 spoke to believers, and the Word tells us exactly what their repentance led them to being saved regarding: what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
John, here is another internet comment regarding ‘salvation’ that you might recognize. Interesting that we have more of a part in our salvation according to this internet comment.
GOD’S PART
1. The great love of God for man (John 3:16)
2. He gave His Son, Jesus Christ, as the Saviour (Luke 19:10)
3. Sent the Holy Spirit as a guide (John 16:13)
4. Gave the Gospel as “the power” unto salvation (Romans 1:16)
5. Provided atonement by the blood of Christ (Romans 5:9)
MAN’S PART
1. Hear the Gospel. (Romans 10:17, John 8:32)
2. Believe the Gospel (Hebrews 11:6, John 20:31)
3. Repent of past sins (Luke 13:3, Acts 17:30)
4. Confess faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:10, Matthew 10:32)
5. Be Baptized (Galatians 3:27, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38)
6. Be faithful unto death (Revelations 2:10)
God has done His part; will you do yours?
Jason, a guy had a sign, something like the ‘will work for food’ signs as my son-in-law and I left Home Depot. We had been staying in the area for several hours (after my visit to urgent care) so I could acclimate a little bit and give the medicine and 02 some time to work. So we had also had lunch/dinner, and he had run some errands. We both had leftovers from our meals, my son in law had ordered a sandwich, and had only eaten half. It was a clean cut, and so my SIL was scrambling for the food as I was going through my wallet for one of Tom Cucuzza’s tracts. I asked him, would you like half a sandwich, and his response was not happy, and he said, ‘well I guess’… He wanted money not food. I don’t think the Lord would have us giving out of guilt but out of joy, He loves a cheerful giver. It is a responsibility to be a good steward, and difficult when we have people asking us for money. I try to ask a few questions. Do I know their gospel? Have I fellowshipped with them? Do I feel comfortable giving if I have it?
I still have trouble to this day, because I would give away the farm so to speak 🙂
Oh my, our worst fears. How dare we be rich. Every time a bum asks me for money, thoughts like that have run through my mind. I have not always responded appropriately. The truth sets us free of such worries.
We were watching a rerun last night of an old sitcom. The vignette involved a couple who had received money from the woman’s father under false pretenses. Upon finding that their friend needed the money for an operation to save the life of her dog, the couple decided to give her the money. The dialog went something like this:
Wife: “Why should we give her the money?”
Husband: “Because, if we don’t, we’ll spend forever burning in a lake of fire!”
Wife: “Both of us?”
Husband: “Yes.”
Audience: Laughter
My comment: Teachable moment. Many people have a works for salvation mindset.
Right John… And what’s going to happen when it dawns on them that they maybe haven’t hated their sin enough?
One lady said, “Our lack of interest and character qualities of the Holy Spirit, the fruit, is an indicator that someone is a pretender, they should be warned so they can choose Christ if they have only played the game, but never trusted Christ.”
She also repeated this basically in another comment, but followed it up with the Matthew 7 warning for false prophets (they always seem to miss that, and miss the works justification).
The problem is that people think they are born again but may not be, not because of their sin but because they are pretenders, they never trusted Christ that’s why they have no conscience toward their sin.
Matthew 7:21-23 “21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”
Somehow they know they never ‘trusted Christ’ because ‘they have no conscience towards their sin’.
Holly, it also makes their assurance of eternal life rest on their consciousness and hatred of sin, rather than on the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
John… it’s hard to keep up sometimes with the crazy comments out there, they seem to live to out-do each other. This false comment I saw today:
“When we become born again Christ changes our hearts, we no longer want to sin, we hate any sin that we do and we confess to be cleansed. If someone remains in sin after claiming to be a Christian and has no conscience about it, then they were never born again.”
I guess this is a person who believes Ananais and Sapphira were not saved, or that Simon (whose heart was not right) was not saved (even though he had believed). I hate these types of discussions, because it leads the person inevitably to accuse us of wanting to sin, or loving or sin, etc. These have no conscience about their pride, by their own standards they have accused themselves of being unsaved and literally should rip 1 Cor 5 & 6 also out of the Bible because surely an incestuous adulterer who wanted to sin, who didn’t hate his sin, his church friends didn’t hate his sin, perhaps none of them were saved? And if so, then these chapters have to be false (according to their own words).
Curtis, good comment regarding mid-acts dispensationalism. I’ve been planning on writing something (again Lord willing) for quite some time. So much I have collected (including those wonderful Memes). I’ll take a listen to Dennis also. Thanks.
Wow, never thought of that. So contrary to the loving God who gives eternal life.
Here is one from today:
Jesus of Nazareth (historical and proven, not at issue here) said he’d rather have someone hot or cold (believe or clearly not believe) than someone lukewarm. I agree with what he said. I think it’s more respectable to be an honest atheist than a Christian in name only. I respect Christians that sincerely believe and try to live it. I respect honest atheists and agnostics that are upfront about not believing. I don’t respect people who say they believe one thing and live out another.
My comment: Jesus did not say that someone who is cold is someone who clearly does not believe.
Revelation 3:15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
If this had to do with whether or not someone was a believer, Jesus would literally be saying that He would prefer they be a non-believer (that is, that He would prefer that they go to hell!). That is one of the crazier notions that I have ever read.
Marxist buttons, anti-marxist buttons? What’s the difference? Dominionism is liberation theology from the right. None of it is liberating. Can it really be that 95% of churchianity is bethel church and the majority is truly conservative?
all them news anchor talking heads if they don’t in someway get your blood pressure up by pressing your buttons they feel they have not don’t their Job.
I get a kick out of the conservative talking heads busting on passed adminstration Now that we have a rule of Law trying to get re established a Conservative administration . Now they find themselves flatfooted how quickly they start digging up dirt again saying nothing positive. I don’t listen to any of them.
The guy who was tickled by Obama is Chris Matthews. I used to listen to Mark Levin (the “Grating” One) make fun of him, along with Nancy Pelosi.
below is a teaching link on hyper Dispensationalism or Mid Acts dispensation . Most souls (myself as well) coming away from legalism and end up swinging all the way over into License , mysticism , Gnosticism . It is easy to do and fun to enjoy such freedom. However there is balance to scripture with No contradictions in scripture. There is very little information that disputes Mid Acts dispensation (youtube is loaded with mid acts dispensation teaching) and many go unnoticed among Free Grace . Im not questioning someones salvation (Justification) However I do and believe the scriptures warn us and tells us to avoid and shun false teaching, Prove all things ,. Study our workmanship, be a Berean. If you found this thread looking for more information about hyper dispensation or Mid Acts. Welcome. but please see the statement of Faith here at expreacherman and The Clear Gospel Booklet .
1 point of many if i may that refutes Hyper Dispensation
Romans 16:7
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
who also were in Christ before me.
“who also were in Christ before me.” this is Paul speaking of those also in Christ before him.
Now were those in old testament redeemed ? Yes
Were they in Christ ? No
Was Paul redeemed ? Yes
There are several other points in below teaching that refutes Hyper Dispensation , Mid Acts.
20 – Dispensations 17 – Hyper-Dispensationalism: I Am Of Paul
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=515172320374
John, every time I see these comments made by the press, I think of the one guy who got chills down his leg with Obama (don’t want to put the specific words to it). They haven’t a clue what saves, and Who is the Redeemer. They aren’t acquainted with the only Mediator, and they clutch those beads in the hope (and multiple prayers to mostly Mary), that they are ‘in’. I hate it, but I hate the idea of people losing their soul for all eternity because of these false traditions of men.
Jason, I ‘think’ Michael’s book is linked here, and if I remember correctly his email is on it. Not quite sure. He has come and commented here a few times too.
One sins pompously, the other sins ascetically. They both sin. One sinner cannot redeem another. Christ will save both if they only believe. The worldly media teaches heresy hilariously.
The Ave Maria can be listened to on Youtube. People think that is beautiful because it is in Latin and has pleasing melody. It has been covered in classical music so many times. It is an age-old lie. Jesus already prayed for us sinners in the gospel of John, a few days before his passion and crucifixion.
From an editorial in today’s “New York Times” entitled “A Prayer for Donald Trump”:
Regarding Trump’s scheduled meeting with Pope Francis:
One of them is splenetic. The other is ascetic. One sins. The other redeems. Cue the metaphors and clutch your rosary beads.
My comment: The Pope cannot redeem anyone. Christ is our redeemer.
Is he reachable? He actually got to use his programming skills, lol. And he loves astronomy. He and I could talk about lots of things.
Jason, I’m sure Michael would be blessed to hear it.
My experience, too. I escaped the name it and claim it mindset with the help of Mr Orthodox, only to discover that I still wasn’t back to the gospel. Equip.org and faithalone.org were and are part of the junk, as were ptm.org and wcg.org. Even letusreason.org is junk. They think that running the race in vain proves you weren’t saved. I never liked them, anyway. When I stumbled here in roughly 2011, it sounded to me too good to be true yet irrefutable. Last year, I read Michael Patrick Bowen, and he scared me out of repent of sin. He confirmed what I thought I knew about I never knew you. I had a blind guide from IV back in 1996 who I am sure would never get it. I was really stunned about Stanley especially.
Jason, I was actually about to re-comment as I saw how my comment might have sounded. I didn’t mean it to somehow sound how it ended up — it’s just that I have stumbled across so much junk since I first got on the internet, back in the early 90s when webpages were just that, a page 🙂 I remember first running into things I wasn’t really aware of, like the name it and claim it folks. But there was a common theme under it all. It’s man-centered.
I hear you. Here, there, skeletors everywhere
Jason, I agree with FryingPan9. Be very careful. Get fed, take time to study, search His Scriptures, Hide them in your heart, He’ll help by bringing them to your remembrance, keeps us from sinning, keeps us from error. The internet is chock full of deceivers and those deceived, takes much time to sift through…. and might lead you into stinkin’ thinkin’.
Good sites are few and far between. Instead of marking and avoiding the bad, we should be marking and embracing the good, lol.
Why keep looking?* You have this site. One look at that home page and I was done. Way too creepy . . .
*That’s a rhetorical question . . . 🙂
Websites that disappoint
I stumble upon secondtree.net and read, concerning Eden: “GOD’S COMMANDMENT WAS CLEAR: God was indicating that righteousness cannot be achieved through learning the difference between right and wrong. To learn right from wrong would be a sin worthy of death. The way of righteousness would be to simply believe God and obey His commandment concerning the forbidden fruit.”
Instantly, I recognized a grace site. Not always. Reading on, the commandment became unclear and then contradicted, as repent of sin was said and eternal security denounced as heresy. If God’s command is clear then believing a false gospel is breaking it.
Oh bummer, another site to mark and avoid.
I agree about the systems of thought. That was one of my points in my comment to kevin thompson.
System of thought as opposed to , The Holy Spirit using a Believer Soul’s original Voice as they have studied the scriptures for themselves asking for wisdom and understanding yet all speaking the same Clear Gospel of Grace Truth of The Gospel message .
Joh 18:34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
I disagree about the comparison, Curtis. When I was influenced by Calvinism, covenant theology at least seemed consistent. Hyperdisp had me in turmoil about the changing soteriologies back then, and still does not make sense now. It totally makes Jesus untrustworthy by changing him yesterday, today, and forever. And like Calvinism, it has Jesus dying for a subset.
Btw kevin was one of the hyperdisps linked by renee.
another note when i’m listening to preaching/teaching I am expecting to hear the Gospel .I’m convinced if a preacher/teacher has been drinking or are drunk on dirty spiritual water they can not deliver a clear Gospel presentation
Loud, in your face arrogant teaching . . . Like the late, not so great Gene Scott who called himself a Paulinist . . .
That’s the first thing that came to mind when I read this comment.
Looks like Hyper dispensaltionsm to me , Renee has a link on her channel to Hyper dispensastionlist on Her channel.
I listened to her a little The hyper dispansatilist are real close to a Clear Gospel of Grace , a lot closer than Calvinism , when it comes down to it Hyper dispensation is just another system of thought. They miss the meaning of the identification principle of water baptism.
key trigger words “rightly divide” “Paul’s Gospel”
the preachers/ teachers usually always standing in front of dispensation display board. Loud in your face arrogant Teaching
I love her passionate rants against lordship and defending the simplicity of grace.
Jason, we’ve had a couple of commenters recommend her. I have read one of her comments on Redeeming Moments, and she seemed to be clear on grace. That said, I haven’t listened to, nor evaluated her teaching.
Anyone come across Renee Roland’s channel? Her suffering draws my sympathy. Plenty of loadshipers comment just to tear her apart and make light of it. Yet she defends Wilkin.and has been mixed up with the purgatory teaching crowd.
I guess he thought I was a Calvinist, lol. I wonder why.
I saw one comment by Jacksmack (probably my 3rd or 4th) around 4 years ago on YouTube telling one commenter, “Calvinists are not welcome here.”
That was enough for me . . . Sounds like a bit of lunatic to me.
Pastor Leonard Radtke
1 John
Description: #6 – 1 John 2:1-9
Date: 11/30/1977
http://gracebiblestudies.org/Message.aspx?MessageID=219
Came up file not found
here is what’s missing in Baptist Preaching. Always dealing with symptoms never getting to the source.
also what i have not heard 10 years in a IFCA church
http://gracebiblestudies.org/Message.aspx
Thanks for your comment. Jacksmack pays lip service to the rapture, so I am surprised.
jack-smack
an open handed, back-hand slap to the temple. not intended to knock someone out, but instead, to make someone appreciate your point of view in a forceful manner so they eventually agree with you. this is considered a more intimidating and more painful form of “point making” as opposed to the more traditional and less painful open hand cheek slap.
Is that How the Grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness ?
I have in the past listened to a lot of Jacksmack , but his brow beating tirades is not what the scriptures teach but if that is what a soul wants to read into the scriptures have at it.
as a saved soul they will not enter into the Faith Rest Life and go about duplicating the same error as the children of Israel.
yes there are consequences from not yielding to Holy Spirit.
God is always a perfect gentleman. God never over rides free will and His Character is never compromised .
another area of confusion for me is that jacksmack promotes Stephen L Sanders a legalistic anti Zionist preacher who is an out right heretical false teacher. who even has gone as far to deny the holocaust . jacksmack also promotes another anti Zionist website through his youtube channels I would rather not mention.
when it all comes down to were rubber hits the road with most Baptist they may say Grace Grace but get them in a corner and it is works as evidence of salvation.
most time you can smoke them out if they pass the Gospel of Grace Test and doctrinal statement is to find out were they stand with Israel in relation to the Church. Charles Spurgeon and other like hell fire preachers get all mixed up on Israel and the Church and or Gods Covenants with Israel.
also when bumping into the King James onlyist out there on the internet and churches this is basically what I have found.
i’m sure there are other biblically sound Baptist around but the only one I can recommend is Pastor Tom of Northland Baptist
Jason, Curtis just responded, but I clumsily deleted his comment rather than posting it.
Curtis, could you please resend the comment?
I’m curious what Curtis was going to say.
avoid jacksmack more later
These internet believers. You find one, are built up by him for a while, and then you find he has issues. He also promoted the Ragamuffin gospel, and that is a crossless gospel. According to Brennan Manning, the one question you should expect to be asked at Judgement is, “did you believe that I loved you?”, not “did you believe that I died for you?”.
Sounds like a waste of time to listen to.
jacksmack77 rants on youtube that every Christian should throw away his TV because watching TV is sin. What pathetic legalism coming from a Zane Hodges defending free gracer, prescribing to all Christians the only wise way to use their time. He also condemns football as a waste of time. I guess the Four Corners Offense post reveals our ungodliness. It sure feels good to be judged. I even caught him backloading the gospel with a work when he was angry at a brother and telling him to go where unbelievers are going. I caught him listening to a really raucous secular band called Napalm Death, revealing hypocrisy. You just don’t get to pick a few pet peccadillos to condemn while you practice one.
You just can’t make this stuff up. Following is a comment I read today in response to another comment regarding an article about Pope Francis:
Flipping off the Pope?!? My friend I believe you have just punched your ticket to Hell
My comment: The Bible says that one’s eternal destiny is dependent solely on whether he has believed in Jesus as his Savior. The Bible does not recognize any “Pope,” nor does the Bible even remotely suggest that disrespecting the Pope (a work) would result in the forfeiture of eternal life.
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Note from administrator: Preacher in training – the fact that we warn to stay away from dominionist/theonomic/works for salvation sites in no manner reflects our commenters’ acceptance of things that are clearly wrong in God’s eyes.
Jason, sounds like a good site to avoid.
The website contains condemnation of abortion, but notice the tone. All readers are having their fruit inspected over the most indirect association imaginable with the evil. By merely being Americans and voting for the lesser of two evils, they are being judged worthy of condemnation. They are being condemned for merely sending their kids to a public school. Never mind the poor mother with few financial options. The Republican party fails to stop the evil, and what is the remedy offered? Not the Gospel but a violent revolution. This is pure dominionism, plain and simple. And it is loadship.
Preacher in training, I think where a lot of people unknowingly fall into bondage with these types of sites is that they preach turning from sin (what? should we sin that grace might abound?) and those of us that know we should be setting our minds on things above, might unwittingly take that to be about discipleship. The trouble is, that they are preaching this in conjunction with receiving the free gift of eternal life, or proof that we have actually ever believed. The very reason many get caught up is that they are indeed preaching against abortion or licentiousness of different kinds, but the enemy knows this and so we have to understand and ask “are they preaching the gospel or another” (i.e. Church of Christ, lawkeepers, loadshippers, Calvinists, Roman Catholics etc.) or ask “are they preaching Jesus or another?” (i.e. Mormonism, Jehovah’s witness, etc.)
The Calvinist bend of post-millennialism is “Reconstructionism”. The Pentecostal bend is “Domionism”. The Reconstructionists were adamantly opposed to Pentecostalism until the early 1980’s when their shared disdain for Pre-millennialism brought Calvinist and Pentecostals together in the “culture war”. The Reconstructionists taught the Domionists Preterism and have been in bed together ever since.
Fire Breathing Christians is a Reconstructionist/ Preterist website pushing the Mosaic Law to Christians and society in general and as such and it is hostile to the Futurist, Pre-millennial, Church is not Israel view.
That website contains articles condemning such abominations as abortion etc. … God hates the hands which shed innocent blood. (Proverbs 6:16-19).
But yes, such doctrines as theonomy and dominionism are completely false. I’m not very familiar with theonomy, because I did not come from a calvinist background, but dominionism is something I’ve researched in the past. That doctrine is gaining popularity in the pentacostal/charismatic and even some baptist churches with the advent of the “new apostolic reformation.” It ties in to this false notion that there will be an “end times revival” rather than what the Bible says (a great falling away). Many who believe in that doctrine also believe in post-millennial eschatology.
The phrase “license to sin” comes from the whole calvanism/arminism debate.
both sides are in biblical error.
as born again belivers in/of Christ Jesus His finished work. We have been set free from the law of sin a death never to be judge for our sin.. We have been granted the precious privilege to choose the freedom to serve God or serve ourselves. God never overides free will. God does not make or want robots to serve out of fear but our motivatiated by His Love.
the love of Christ Constrains us.
Sin still has consequences…
When hearing “license to sin” to me it is an attempt to draw me into a never ending argument. with souls who really need to hear the clarity of the Gospel.. and be re oriented to The Gospel of Grace.
Grace teaches us to deny ungolieness..
Practicing the Truth.. Perfecting Holiness in the Fear of The Lord..
That website teaches Calvinism and Theonomy. It was linked from Pulpit and Pen, another Calvinist blog. I went there to read about Hank Hanegraaff’s hankering for Orthodoxy. I cannot find an endorsable site that will cover that story, so I had to listen to James White and Pulpit and Pen and endure more adoration of the reformation. Equip.org still displays content anathematized by the EOC. They are rotten liars, all.
Theonomy is another devilish system within Calvivism, which is akin to fascism.
I am not even clear where Walter Martin, CRI founder, stood on grace.
preacher in training, “free gracers” are not “pro sin” or “anything goes.” I don’t think that was the point of Jason’s comment.
I think it was more about the concept of dominionism – the false, worldly notion that we are to establish the kingdom of God on earth.
Having said that, I am not familiar with the website, and do not intend to spend time evaluating it, or discussing it at Expreacherman.
Had a brief look at the front page for the website Fire Breathing Christian, and it contains a lot of articles against a lot of things which the Bible says are wrong. So, my question is, are Free Grace believers a bunch of liberals who are pro sin?
I know we are justified by faith alone, but that doesn’t mean we should have an anything-goes attitude to sin.
Jason, thanks for the warning.
The Gospel According to Fire Breathing Christian
I am disheartened to stumble upon the site Fire Breathing Christian, linked to Pulpit and Pen. I see that it is all politics and no gospel. Every title of every article and book is dripping with hypocrisy and pride. The strategy is direct: calls for revolution and taking captive every thought. Utter disdain for any restraint or self-control. Every failure of America is addressed with condemnation, directed at every reader from every walk of life. Nothing is said about the believer’s position in Christ, other than the presumption that the Christian is equipped to execute the conquest. References to repenting of sin are not lacking.
Looking back to the times I listened to Hank Orthograaf, it all seems like bondage. Making sure I didn’t have a said faith, mumbling the reformation mantra, saving faith is never alone, disdaining easy believism, worrying about apostasy, getting deep into churchianity history, looking for the elusive healthy, well-balanced church, personal phone calls from Hank that revolved around a cold relationship with money, being sold a bill of goods on Israel, and now discovering that Hank is an Eastern god chaser. Enough bones of contention to make a dinosaur.
Vicki Frazier, welcome! So glad to hear that comment, I can certainly relate. I had gospels of John and Romans I was giving out without ‘proving all things’ or being a noble Berean, and sadly many added things in the front pages about ‘repenting from sin’ or ‘stop sinning’ etc… Trash… Thankful He showed me in His Word.
Here is one you can print from Pastor Tom Cucuzza.
Click to access how_to_be_sure_you_are_going_to_heaven_with_cover.pdf
Johninnc, don’t get me wrong, you need to keep putting those comments out there because people need to hear. What I ‘meant’ was those who are hearing the commenter often fall into bondage. Hearing you, they understand it is false, different story. Keep up the good work!
Wecome Vicki
about 20 years for me as a saved soul yet under the bewitching of false gospels..
lost alot of health and wealth from all the knee jerk reactions instead of faith resting.. at this point im looking unto Jesus to finish well
Vicki, welcome and thanks for your comment.
I think that there are many believers coexisting with false gospels being promulgated by religious organizations. It is important to recognize and separate from gospel-related error.
I agree that when believers choose to walk in the Spirit, they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Unfortunately, some people will cede the point that one doesn’t have to turn from sins or do good works to receive eternal life, but then insist that “true believers” will show some degree (always unspecified) of life change.
Lordship “salvation” error has become pervasive in professing Christendom, by inserting good works at the front-end, or by back-loading the gospel with works.
God has recently opened my eyes to recognize all this “Lordship salvation” teachings and how it’s creeped into about everything. It’s in the gospel tracts I’ve used for years and years. Lost people don’t have to stop sinning and clean themselves up, all they need is to come to Jesus and believe on Him. After salvation, the cleanup job is the work of the Holy Spirit. I don’t know why I’ve been blind for so many years. Oh I’ve always know salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone, I just have been blind to the false teachings right in front of my face.
“plain and simple infant baptism is damnable heresy teaching salvation by water baptism. Im not spurgeon”.
This comment was on youtube responding to a comment on a video about Baptist history. He was conflating infant baptism with baptismal regeneration and calling it damnable. He was also promoting Spurgeon and now he makes a disclaimer. He hates anything Protestant, yet he could not answer the point that Spurgeon was a Calvinist. I could not tell this Baptist apart from a Campbellite, since he was making a mode of baptism necessary for salvation. Infant baptism is error, but it is not by itself adding works to salvation. Salvation by baptism by immersion is still salvation by baptism. Some Baptists are “church of christ” and do not know it.
Holly, I keep registering them, because they are indicative of what is passing for “christianity.” I am hopeful that if readers see the various twists and turns that the religious have invented to corrupt the gospel, that it will help to make the truth of the gospel more clear.
Hobbs, it is a load of ‘c–p’ or dung as Paul put it. Religion and learning can put us up in front of men and lift us to an important position, but without the truth it is nothing but dung, no matter how important to others.
Oh, it is so terribly sad to me to see those types of comments, both for the commenter and the hearer…
And, here is one in response to an article regarding the death of “Happy Days” cast member Erin Moran:
Seek the Lord and His forgiveness today while you still have the breath of life in you. lest you perish in your sins and come unto the great judgment.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, repent of your sins, turn from the world and the sinful ways of the world and follow Him is the message of the Bible.
To do otherwise and to continue in your worldly ways will surely bring you at last to eternal ruin and damnation.
My comment: This is a false gospel of works. Has the commenter repented of his sins, turned from the world, and the sinful ways of the world to follow Jesus? Has he done so perfectly?
Eternal life is not received by repenting from sin, turning from the world, or by following Jesus. Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Agree that no one has to confess sins to receive eternal life, as that would be inconsistent with salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Following is an extensive excerpt of the link that I provided earlier:
Most of our commenters believe that 1 John 1:9 instructs believers to continually confess their sins to stay in fellowship with God. As such, the confession of sin would be an acknowledgment that we had allowed our flesh to manifest itself.
There are several interpretations of 1 John 1:9 that I have come across that are consistent with grace, including:
1. It is written to believers, and is a reference to their acknowledgement, in having come to Christ for eternal life, that they were sinners in need of a Savior. It does not relate to needing to confess sins on an ongoing basis to maintain fellowship.
2. It is written to believers, and refers to confessing sin as a necessity for maintaining fellowship, or at least close fellowship, with Christ.
3. It is written to nonbelievers who do not understand that they are sinners, in need of a Savior. If they are going to come to Christ for eternal life, they will have to come to the realization that they are sinners, in need of a Savior.
4. It is written to both nonbelievers and believers. For nonbelievers, it is a call for acknowledgement that they are sinners in need of a Savior. For believers, it is either a call for the ongoing confession of sins or a continued acknowledgment that they have not reached a state of sinless perfection.
We have had extensive discussion of this topic at Expreacherman, and our commenters have registered their views as to their interpretations of 1 John 1:9, together with their reasons for coming to those interpretations.
I do not want to start that discussion afresh.
For a good overview of that discussion, start with the first link and finish with the last link below:
https://expreacherman.com/2014/06/01/some-lordship-salvationists-pet-passages-explained/#comment-66678
Brad you asked why are we to confess our sins. Many even here don’t really see eye to eye, but here is my take on 1 John.
It was written to believers.
The purpose statement so that their fellowship with God and others would continue and that their joy might remain full.
One thing we all agree on, (I believe) is that it has nothing to do with positional forgiveness. Our new man, the one that is eternal, is washed, sanctified and perfected forever by one sacrifice (Heb 10:10, 14). By one sacrifice, one offering only are we forgiven positionally, He washed us in His own blood (Rev 1:5).
But, as we tend to do in the flesh, we may recognize one sin and deal with it, but we might stubbornly refuse to recognize another, we do not agree we have a problem with ________________________. Do we hate someone? Then we are not ‘doing’ the truth. Do we walk in darkness? There are some things we need to recognize at times that may be hampering us, either with other believers, or with our walk with Him. It’s not God shutting us out, but us shutting Him out, and our sins do so easily beset us, and when we agree with Him that it is sin, we are more able to lay it aside. One of mine that wasn’t as obvious as the other sins that others could easily spot was thinking I was pretty good. After all, I didn’t curse, I didn’t do this, that, and the other. But that in of itself is offensive, it is pride and we can have God resisting us then (1 Pet 5), so therefore we are told to humble ourselves under His mighty hand. I know we can have a tendency to not see things we do, and I believe it is when we say we do not sin, it’s the sin we need to agree with God and humble ourselves in agreeing/confessing it.
I do believe some teach it as some sort of laundry list prayer and you were somehow only forgiven for past sins. ALL our trespasses were forgiven at the cross (Col 2:13-15). All we needed to do was believe upon Him as our Savior (Christ and Him crucified), and resurrected of course, and we receive complete forgiveness for our sins. White as snow. Hard to comprehend, but we’re speaking of the supernatural here, not the natural, not the hand we can hold out and see, but the truth we can hold onto because He spoke it, and we believed His testimony of His Son, and He is not a man that He should lie.
It is not by our feelings, or our experiences, which cannot be trusted because those are our flesh, but it is because He has said so, and He has done so. It is His Work and it is His Word. That’s it.
Brad:
I agree with John, when I felt that way I’d pray and ask the Lord to show me in His Word. When I’d run across certain passages that were difficult, I’d pray again, and tell Him I was wanting Him to show me, and I knew if I did my part (studied with His approval), He’d show me in due time. Or maybe it was just about me learning how to answer the accuser of the brethren. One thing you must do is be a Berean, look up all the Scriptures, take your time. Look up people’s proof-texting in context and ask the right questions — the who, what, where, why, when, how, etc., and when in doubt, look for other Scriptures to confirm what you believe it’s saying. So when you have doubts like the above you posted, take time to answer them one by one by looking up Scripture, you and the Lord.
God does not give us a spirit of fear right? So if He wanted to show us something, we need to ask where will we find truth? (Jn 17:17). We need to not only mark, but to >>>AVOID those places that are full of the voice of the accuser. These things are not the voice of the Shepherd, these are not things He has said in His Word, this is where being built up in His Word is so important (Acts 20:32).
When we are in the ‘strong meat’ of His Word, we are more able to exercise discernment between good and evil (Heb 5:12-14), so exercise your senses. Keep at the needed thing, the good part (Lk 10:38-42), remember everything He said, it will not be taken from you. The Holy Spirit will bring it to your remembrance. Pray for more things, He’ll direct your paths. He told those who believed to continue in His Word (why?) so they would know the truth and the truth would set them free (Jn 8:31-32).
Well free from what? Weren’t they already set free when they believed? Yes, they were already freed from the sting of death, the penalty of sin as eternal separation from God. BUT, we still struggle because we , have to PUT OFF the old man, we need to offer ourselves as living sacrifices, but for me, it can be several times a day. Just get back up, because He has done the work. Ask Him to help—He will. We can get into bondage by going into fear and allowing bad doctrine (law) to infiltrate our thinking. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. We are cleansed by taking heed to His Word (Ps 119:9-11), that is the truth that sets believers free. 1 Tim 4:16 instructs and already saved Timothy to take heed to the doctrine SAVING both Himself and his hearers. Saved from what? They were already saved eternally, so saved from what?
Eph 5 tells believers how Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it, and that we are sanctified and cleansed by the washing of the water by the Word, why? So HE might present to Himself a glorious church, no spot, nor wrinkle or any such thing. It goes back and forth between husband and wife and Christ in the end of the chapter. We are Christ’s body, He loves us and nourishes us. He is able to keep us from stumbling and present us faultless on that day (Jude).
Get into studying the Word, choose to do it with His approval in mind (2 Tim 2:15), knowing as we seek Him, we’ll find Him, ask, seek, knock. He will not give us a stone or a serpent. All good gifts come from Him. He does not make it hard, people do.
Rest in Christ, what He has done, He is the end of the law for righteousness for those of us who have believed (Rom 10:4). Sin has no power over us, because Christ is our righteousness. Now we sin, and it affects us in the flesh, and others as well so we should do good works (Titus 3:8). But it does not affect our eternity, because He has given us eternal life, already translated into the Kingdom (Col 1:13, John 5:24). You need to look up and build your own arsenal of Bible verses so you can answer the enemy when He comes in to accuse you, as Jesus did, ‘it is written’ (Matt 4).
Sorry this is so long, hope it helps. In Christ, Holly
Brad
I can empathize with your feeling of isolation and I can vouch that this site is a good place to talk. As Curtis said, God is not a system of thought, but He is also not the author of confusion. Most systems are formulated and held to by assuming certain passages say what the system (which comes first) says those passage say. It is system first then you will understand scripture for some people. I was told this exact thing this week. The reason I cannot understand why faith must be gifted and works must follow true faith is because I don’t understand “the system”.
Think about it, any system that says justification has not taken place if faith is not followed by works has not separated justification or faith from works even if they tell you “we do not believe in works salvation”, that is system double talk and their last resort will be to appeal to the mysteries of God and Rom 11:33. And don’t you know that the mysteries of God will always be opposed to a plain reading of the text and in harmony with “the system”.
Why I Am No Longer Free Grace
Published on Oct 25, 2013
JB Hixson shares his insights into the free grace movement based upon his experience as a founding board member and first executive director of the Free Grace Alliance, and his seven-year tenure as administrator and faculty at the largest free grace educational institution in the world.
Brad wrote:
“john i know my past comments have been on point with free grace but i could just as easily espouse a works-based doctrine because i have looked at all theological doctrines so closely.”
Me:
God is NOT a system of Thought! . If and when a soul goes searching for god in a system of thought that is were they will remain ever searching and NEVER coming to the Truth resisting the Truth.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
Comment 3 about the suicide sounds irrelevant or even contradictory. The vain things of this world are the things that keep you attached to the world, not the rash acts that take you out of it. As misguided as suicide is, the suicide committer has seen the vanity of it all and has had enough of it. There are things worth living for, and not all is vain. It is possible to be heavenly minded and hell bound by trying to earn heaven and not trusting Jesus.
Brad, please find link below in which I attempted to answer your question a little over a month ago.
Why are we told to confess our sins for forgiveness if Jesus already died for all of our sins? Fellowship?
I need to stop (insert unspeakable sin here) otherwise this whole situation will just get worse.
I thank you for your prayers and responses. God bless you.
In times like this i like to remember the examples of Lot and the Corinthian church as reasons why I haven’t lost my salvation. Yes i am aware that you believe a person cannot lose salvation but in this situation where i am plagued with those thoughts it is a nice reassurance.
Also I know full well i have a new nature, and that that new nature is Christ living in me.
The regeneration i experienced 7 months ago was unmistakable. It was like there was an added element to my life i had never experienced before. I had a new line of thought and a sense of fulfillment totally independant of this world.
Brad, the moment a person believes in Jesus as his Savior, he is declared righteous by God, on the basis of Christ’s righteousness. He is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and kept saved by God the father, by Christ Jesus, and by the Holy Spirit. He has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.
I think the Bible is true. As such, it cannot contradict itself. The Bible says God cannot lie. Accordingly, He cannot contradict Himself.There are three tenets taught so clearly in scripture that the only way they could be refuted by other scripture is if either the Bible was not true, or if God were a liar. Those three tenets are:
1. Eternal life is a FREE GIFT – received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
2. Eternal life is eternal – it can never be lost or forfeited.
3. A person can have assurance of eternal life based SOLELY on God’s promises.
I can tell you that you are not alone in having the enemy attempt to undermine your assurance in the truth of the gospel by having you read or consider interpretations of scripture that seem to contradict any of the three tenets listed above. Satan attacks each of us at our weakest points, and at our weakest moments.
Some of his specific goals are:
1. To plant seeds of doubt and despair in order to rob you of
the joy and assurance of your eternal life.
2. To lead you astray in order to keep you from growing in the
knowledge of the truth, and
3. To keep you from sharing your faith in Christ with others.
(Source: “The Gospel” booklet, by Ron Shea)
We can protect ourselves with God’s armor, not our own. (See Ephesians 6).
Brad, you said: i wish i never went back to sin i remember 7 moonths ago how good everytging was it was like i came to life for the very first time everything was fantastic
My comment: You have to realize, that as fantastic as your life seemed to be during that time, you had not achieved sinless perfection. You still had the flesh with which to contend. You may have stopped or curtailed certain behaviors, but you still were not perfect.
Since perfection is required to get into heaven, it must be based on imputed righteousness from Christ, not our behavior, which can be fickle, and will never be perfect while we are still attached to our bodies in this lifetime.
Brad, I would focus on this:
Is Jesus God in the flesh? Did He die for our sins (all of them – past, present, and future)? Did that include your sins – past, present, and future? Was He raised from the dead, proving that His payment was accepted?
The “what if I?” questions need to be turned back and met with “what DID Jesus do?”
john i know my past comments have been on point with free grace but i could just as easily espouse a works-based doctrine because i have looked at all theological doctrines so closely.
the simplest doctrine by far in my findings is faith alone. it makes the most sense.
here is my issue:
as (obviously) solid as you all are on the beliefs you hold, i am still very new to this. there are many verses from the bible i have come accross that (on the surface) teach a works-based salvation.
i should be collecting them. the ones that talk about having to follow Christ and keep his commandments. the ones in Romans 2. as i said there’s so many ways to consider these verses and on top of this confusion i am being tormented with the thought that i am not saved anymore my parents are totally puzzled and i have no job or friends my dreams at night are just always about a better time in my life and i wake up and just feel terrible i feel like my life is over but it isn’t. (content removed by administrator, due to focus on specific behavior that is not relevant to the discussion).
i wish i never went back to sin i remember 7 moonths ago how good everytging was it was like i came to life for the very first time everything was fantastic …i. even got a seasonal job! right after Christmas i fell into (list of specific behaviors removed by administrator, due to irrelevance) and it just kept happening.
i am rambling i know but i literally have no one else to talk to
that not of yourselves
that not of yourselves
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
that not of yourselves
“There is a form of self-righteousness which leads many believers to doubt their acceptance with God because of their imperfections which they find in themselves.You may say, “But ought I not to have misgivings when I find my spirit and the state of my mind so contrary to that which befits a Christian?” That you ought to judge yourself, and be humbled before your Father about these things, is most true; BUT it is in no wise true that your righteousness and acceptance with God. depend upon yourself, or are measured by your condition or conduct. To have such a thought in the mind is really to suppose that you could be in the favor of your Father by being worthy of that favor in yourself. It is simply self-righteousness.”
Brad, I feel for you, that could be me talking. I’m sure many others here empathise; they’ve been through/go through that stuff.
Kind of see it that this website, at it’s very least, helps to stem the growing tide of mental health problems prevalent in society (mainly among Christians and the religious perhaps) and at it’s best, points people to the true Gospel of Christ and eternal life through Him, as intended.
I do wonder if mental asylums aren’t full of people terrorised by false doctrines, loaded with ‘intolerable burdens’ as Jesus described. I’ve always assumed those burdens were emotional/psychological.
Guess it’s no conicidence that since visiting here regularly and also going to Yankee Arnold’s live feed often, my fears have greatly subsided. Was thinking about this just last night; how good that is. But oddly, that thought/realisation caused me to nose-dive into a panic such as you describe above and kept me awake for hours! Probably satan taking his opportunity – he so slippery.
But, thank God, that hasn’t happened for a good while so it’s getting better. I guess it’s the steadying effects of hearing sound doctrine. We’ve been so loaded down with the other c**p all our lives we’re starved of it.
Anyway that’s all mainly my emotional reaction to your post; John’s comments above are the meat and I for one appreciate them.
‘Playing internet roulette’ – yep, been there, done that. Got the scars to prove it.
What John said
“Please pray for wisdom and stop playing internet roulette!”
Brad
False and weak doctrine will affect us and infect us because that is what False teaching does.
We are all on different levels of growth and there was a point for me coming out of indoctrination of false teaching I needed to shut all down and learn to Trust the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me in Truth and Stop Trying to Learn what I already Know. Simply rejoicing in that I know I am saved and Eternal Life is a present possession and a future hope no matter what.
My Sins are paid for passed present and future no matter what.
one of the things for me to get over was some of the same verses i knew that had me bound were same ones to set me free In my Thinking.
Context, Content , Compare , Conclude
but there be some that trouble you
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
God is not the author of confusion
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Study to shew thyself
A Worker Approved by God
2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Brad, the “smoking gun” revelation that you seek is that Christ was raised from the dead.
Romans 4:25: Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Brad, from your previous comments, I think you know the truth. I would suggest that you stop letting the devil play “devil’s advocate” with you.
You said: I was regenerated 7 months ago…… i have been struggling with sin and the only theological position that provides me any comfort right now is grace alone. but there are so many compelling arguments out there to the contrary and now i am just confused and dont know where to turn
My comment: The reason that grace is the only theological position that provides you any comfort is because that is the only way anyone could ever have any comfort. There are no compelling arguments out there to the contrary. None of them are true.
Remember this: when you are feeling confused, it is not God’s work. God is not the author of confusion.
Please pray for wisdom and stop playing internet roulette! I have prayed for you, Brad.
I am very confused i started off thinking i am eternally secure but i dont know i have read many websites with massively varying views and they all seem to make very good points. there are many verses in the bible that seem to teach you must turn from sin to be saved but you guys make good points too im so confused i am just sitting here on my bed void of any happiness or peace i dont want to burn for eternity. if it is by Christ’s sacrifice great but i have been strugggling with sin for months and i cant shake the thoughts that its too late and i should just give up.
i need help… but i dont know what that help could possiblt be……….
every time i subscribe in my mind to a certain theological view i keep thinking “but what if i am wrong and still on my way to hell”
do i have to pay restitutions for past sins? or do i not?
ITS LIKE THIS GAME OF TOTAL INSANITY WHERE NOTHING SEEMS TO PROVIDE ME COMFORT I HATE THIS I HATE THIS
WHAT GETS ME TO HEAVEN
“well you have to turn from your sins”
“well it’s by faith in Christ alone”
“it’s by faith inChrist but that faith must be a working faith”
“you need to turn from your sins and atone for all your past sins”
“you need to confess your sins and make sure you dont miss any”
“you need to stop sinning completely, you need to be perfect”
i was regenerated 7 months ago…… i have been struggling with sin and the only theological position that provides me any comfort right now is grace alone. but there are so many compelling arguments out there to the contrary and now i am just confused and dont know where to turn
i know all the different positions inside and out but i dont know what to choose!
i need a smoking gun type revelation here. SOMETHING THAT CAN JUST PROVE TO ME ONCE AND FOR ALL WHAT IS RIGGT!
THERES LIKE A MILLION DIFFERENT INTERPETATIONS OF A SINGLE VERSE IN THE BIBLE. WHAT THE HECK DO I DO
John, I haven’t really followed sports for a long time, but my husband semi filled me in on the murders and apparent suicide. Only God knows what has happened, and if Aaron ever believed upon Him. Samson committed suicide (along with others) but we know he was commended for his faith. David murdered, and it really was particularly heinous in that this was his friend, and he had his friend’s wife. Yet we know where David is. Satan has blinded their minds I am afraid, or they have been bewitched and are in bondage to a false gospel.
John and Keith, interesting story of Raymond and that episode. Very realistic account of the Catholic church, the ‘good’ Catholics and the ‘bad’ Catholics (naughty or nice) and the basic underlying ‘truth’ of that church and it is, belong to the church, be active in the church, give to the church, go to mass frequently, confess your sins to man, do good deeds in order to save yourself from more time in purgatory, and pray for the dead (much like your commenter on the suicide). Paul said ‘they’ pray for the dead to rise again. But ‘we’ (believers) know there is only one way, and Jesus has already told them. Jesus is relegated to a second place with His mother somehow the true god of that church. There is a sense of pride in belong to that ‘church’ but later so many of them will find they did wonderful works and cried Lord Lord, but that will never justify them, and by then it will be too late.
Following are three internet comments regarding the apparent suicide of Aaron Hernandez. Each of them contains false doctrine:
Did he not realize suicide is a one way ticket to hell according to Christianity?
My comment: This comment is patently false and reflects a view that eternal life is merited by works (in this case avoiding the commission of suicide). Further, there are no two-way tickets to hell.
I pray for the souls of everyone who has died in this tragedy.
My comment: praying for people who have died is a waste is time.
It doesn’t matter if he had the entire New Testament written over his body…He did NOT have the Word of God written in his heart.
When God saves a great sinner (like me) He puts His Spirit within you and then you have an entirely new outlook on the vanity of the things of this world and you become a new creature with your heart set on heavenly things and you would not, nor could you ever come to kill yourself no matter how dire your circumstances may be.
You would share the mercy of God via His gospel of salvation with whomever you could until the very day you die or until Christ comes.
Very sadly, this guy died unsaved.
My comment: This is just more self-righteousness from someone who presumes to judge another person’s eternal state.
What’s wrong with the 1984 NIV? Is one modern translation not enough? No, they also need the the NLT, the Life Confusion Bible, gender neutral verions, and the Mess.
The Life Recovery Bible , based on NLT and NIV as far gone from Truth as those two versions are Yet there still is enough Truth in them for a soul to be without excuse BUT not an excuse to keep using them.
God is not in the recovery business , God starts all over again with a Brand New Creation a New Nature . God declares the Old Nature Dead in Trespasses and sin worthless..
If the apostle Paul was to offers to help paint the walls of your house he would show up with bulldozers and heavy machinery to start all over again at the foundation’s. That’s How the Word of God does recovery
I saw this on Facebook today:
“The Life Recovery Bible is today’s #1-selling recovery Bible and is based on the 12-step recovery model. It was created by two of today’s leading recovery experts, David Stoop, Ph.D., and Stephen Arterburn, M.Ed., to lead readers to the source of true healing—God himself”.
My comment: What’s wrong with the KJV?
This was not on the internet, but on the TV show “Everyone Loves Raymond.” The entire episode was about why Raymond wasn’t going to Catholic Mass. The “comedic drama” came when Raymond’s father told Raymond’s children that Raymond was going to hell because he wasn’t going to mass. Raymond’s wife asks him if he is still Catholic, and Raymond replies something to the effect of “nobody outgrows being a Catholic.”
Following is a synopsis of that episode, from Wikipedia:
Ray does not want to go to church, and his entire family is disappointed. When Ally makes a picture of him in hell, because of skipping church, he decides to start going to the church regularly to make his father happy. He then realizes that his dad is a usher who never really sits through the mass.
My comment: Sad, abject denial of the gospel.
Keith, I think so too – Catholicism and watered down Catholicism, both aberrant.
John, I agree that a believer becomes a member of the universal church at the moment he or she believes the gospel. And, contrary to the assertion of the poster you mentioned, it is becoming less and less important in which church one seeks this “full strength Christianity” as the poster understands it, since he or she likely partakes of the same aberrant doctrine whether it is found in the Catholic Church or some Protestant denomination, just maybe in a different form.
I came across this little “gem” today:
Note: I am not against people seeking God in other Christian churches. I am a former Protestant myself. But if you want “full strength Christianity” and not a watered down or muddled version of Christianity, you must seek Him in His Catholic Church.
My comment: a believer becomes a member of the universal church at the moment of belief. There is no “muddled version” of Christianity, but there is plenty of false doctrine being promulgated and perpetuated by “churchianity,” including the Catholic Church.
Keith, agree. Sproul is bad news.
Today I read the following comment in response to a Ligonier (R.C. Sproul) “Ministries” article entitled “What do Americans believe about God, salvation, and the Bible?”:
OUR GOAL HAS A CHRISTIAN IS GO TO HEAVEN.
My comment: Heaven is not a goal but a gift which is immediately given to all who place their faith in Christ for eternal life (Romans 6:23).
John, these kinds of comments are straight out of the mouth of the accuser of the brethren. I had one use this portion from James, “I’ll show you my faith by my works”. I marveled that he could not see his quick anger, his accusations towards others, his lack of humility. If I was looking for faith by his works, he’d be in trouble.
I wish they would learn to look at the book of James in its entirety, and understand who this is addressed to and why…
Daniel, I had a Carbon Monoxide detector that was constantly doing that until I moved it to a different outlet in the same room. I pray it’s just an error like that.
Here is one from today, under the monicker of “idon’tknow:”
Wrong. Either your actions show you are a Christian, or they don’t…
After someone posted that it was by faith, not of works, “idon’tknow” followed up with:
Faith without works is dead…
My comment: “idon’tknow” doesn’t seem to know (the gospel).
One from today, in response to an article about the senseless killing of a hippopotamus at a zoo in El Salvador:
I hope the animals that did this realize that God is not so forgiving of this type of sin…
My comment: God is just as forgiving of this type of sin as He is any other type of sin. One is either forgiven of all of his sins or none of them.
Daniel, I have prayed for God’s protection for you and your family, and for you to not be frightened.
Aye guys. I’m not sure what happened but please pray for me and my family. Our CO Alarm was making beeping at times for the past two days.
I remember reading its warning saying something like ” ACTIVATION OF YOUR CO ALARM INDICATES THE PRESENCE OF CARBON MONOXIDE WHICH CAN KILL YOU.”
I’m Frightened.
My faith in the lord can waver at times and this is one of them.
Following is an exchange of comments I read today:
First commenter: I love Jesus. _______ does NOT love Jesus. He loves himself and this world. Worldly people will NEVER enter the kingdom of God. That’s the whole reason Jesus came, to teach us how to enter the Kingdom. Amen!
Second commenter: Glad you are a believer but as a believer you should know that by accepting Jesus even the worldly are saved. And for the record that is without exception.
First commenter: Yes, if they believe in Jesus and that He IS the true living son of God! If they believe that, then it doesn’t matter how worldly they are…IF THEY REPENT!
Entering the kingdom is something that happens during meditation. Those that think about the world, money, tasks, work, kids, etc…can never enter it.
My comment: you can’t make this stuff up. The first commenter appears to believe something, but it does not appear to be the gospel of Jesus Christ. By his criteria, no one would ever get into heaven.
The second commenter was correct.
RAS, never heard this one. Sounds like a good one to avoid.
I want to warn of a very strange theology I encountered (see Nov 2016 comments for background). Not sure what it is called maybe “Death to Life” theology. Death to life is a Biblical concept it is the truth about believing in Christ for life but there is much more to this theology as I found out through conversations with one persistent (and I mean persistent), cunning, adherent.
I mentioned in November that this propagator is articulate and prolific and seemed to hold some clout with less mature believers. This past week, to my surprise and delight, some other posters began confronting him with his errors (more on them later) and they filled me in on his history of causing divisions on this particular board. He pushed back, very cleverly rebuking and blessing us in each response. He showed he had a working knowledge of scripture (so does Satan) and cunningly disguised the fact that his definitions of death, sin and justice among others were different than the rest of us. He would post scripture changing verb tenses; he would equivocate and inter weave words. He would scorn others for inferring from scripture while his whole theology is based on inference (of course if we equivocate and inter weave words it’s easy to deceive even ourselves).
Errors: He does not sin now and the only sin he was guilty of was unbelief. Israel? now they were sinners, unless they kept the law perfectly (and some did he claims). Of course keeping the law does not give life he says (Free Grace bend).Man is basically good, maybe a little naughty and telling others that Christ died for their sins is an error. Christ died to give life to dead gentiles who have one sin (idolatry/unbelief) and dead Jews who have many (see they were under law).
I am a little shaken (maybe more than a little) by this encounter. I was encouraged by the push back of others. Did I mention that this guy is persistent? I feel like I have encountered demons.
Holly, yes. So many litmus tests, arranged around the test givers’ individualized versions of self-righteousness.
So true John…
I’ve watched and been saddened to see similar false statements…
“If you voted, you are a part of this world and you are not saved”…
“If you didn’t vote, you are not saved”…
“If you voted for ____________, you are not saved”…
“So and so (in politics) IS a Christian because __________ (followed with a false example of what being born again includes).
“So and so (in politics) IS NOT a Christian because __________ (followed with a false example of what that person does not ‘prove’ as being a ‘true’ born again person).
I kind of reflect back to Daniel and think on how some of these people might have judged and related to Nebudchadnezzar.
One from a comment to an article in today’s New York Times:
The basic tenet of Christianity is that someone died on the cross for everyone. Anyone who voted for _______ is not a Christian.
My comment: Christ died for our sins and was raised from the dead. It wasn’t just “someone.”
Further, God transcends politics. This partisan version of works salvation is just as insidious as any other form of works salvation. This comment is, in and of itself, a denial of Christ.
Ben – obviously justified men can be barren and unfruitful (lacking works) – 2 Pet 1:5-9. In every epistle we see the believers at some point being instructed regarded not only their lack of works but what they need to do in order to walk in the Spirit.
Ben, the quote that you provided is basic Lordship “salvation.” It is similar to “man is saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.”
“Justification is not by works, but no justified man is without them”.
RAS – I love how the Word continues to feed us or give us seed to sow. I am pretribulational and dispensational but not hyper which is another thing altogether. All we can do is lay the Word out and pray they might hear. Thankful something I shared from His Word helped. God bless.
Jason, agree. Truth on the internet is rare, just as it is in “churches.”
The internet is full of hard fruits that believe in:
flat earth
holocaust hoax
hollow earth
Oswald was innocent
moon landing faked
CERN opens door to abyss / black hole , demons unleashed
firmament found in Antarctica
government hiding extraterrestrials
hell at earth’s core
9/11 inside job
And even if they bring the gospel, their testimony is in shreds. Alex Jones of Infowars is a case in point. Truth on the internet is rare.
Thanks Holly
The conversation has continued. I believe he has never really thought this through and now his pride is keeping him from admitting that Paul said (Rom 4:15) for where there is no law there is no transgression and (Rom 5:14) according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam. He has set Rom 5:13 as his fortress and is/has been convinced that law always means the Mosaic Law. I think it is for pride and fear of being wrong that he throws these barbs that loosely hint that the gospel I am teaching is the same as Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and other apostates.
I believe he is using the KJV and he is some sort of dispensational, maybe hyper. By reading his other comments I can see that he is strongly pre-tribulational. He is also a Pelagian, denying any sin nature but only sin choice and he counts all sin (gentile sin) as idolatry and Adam’s sin was idolatry (some truth to that) not a transgressing of a commandment (no truth to that). He seems to be Free Grace yet he believes that saying Jesus paid the penalty for sin leads to works salvation (law keeping).
Anyway thanks for the encouragement and link to your article. I have read it and it is wonderful. The Job quote is quite useful in this debate. I must say again that this conversation with him has given me a greater appreciation for the integrity of scripture and a deeper understanding of our guilt and Jesus’ sacrifice as the spotless Lamb of God.
Thank you all
John, that’s pretty typical that they accuse us of licentiousness, cheap or ‘greasy’ grace, or call us antinomians. I don’t remember who it was here that brought up this portion from Romans 3, but it appears that Paul and the others were accused of the same thing.
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
RAS – interesting conversation. Job says that Adam hid his transgression. The Gentiles are said to be without the law, yet have the law written on their heart. Which law since there were many Gentiles besides Adam, Abraham wasn’t even a Jew, nor Isaac. I wonder which Bible translation he uses, in some of them Hosea says Adam broke the covenant. Maybe your friend is also not dispensational? Anyways, keep doing what you’re doing, using His Word, they need it. Awhile back Jack and John reposted this article I wrote regarding the law, mainly it’s just a list with Bible verses, maybe something might nudge you if you take a look.
Thanks Keith
I was unable (in the discussion) to use the OT or Jesus’ teachings since Israel was under the law. I did cite Rom 3:19 and 4:15, 5:14 which speaks of transgression but it was unconvincing to the individual I was speaking with. I am loving studying this subject deeper.
RAS, if you have not considered them already, here are some passages which I think show that unbelievers are under the guilt of the law unless and until they believe the Gospel.
Jeremiah 31:29-30: “In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge”.
Jeremiah 31:34: “And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more”.
Matthew 5:21-22 and 5:27-30 teach that the law heaps condemnation on those who attempt to justify themselves before God by keeping it, which is the condition of the unbeliever.
Romans 3:19: “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God”.
Matt. 5:18 states, “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled”. I think the fulfillment of this is at the Great White Throne judgment, where those who rejected the Gospel are judged according to the law (their works) in Rev. 20:12:
“And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books”. Note that this takes place right before the old heavens and earth pass away and the new heavens and the new earth are created in chapter 21.
Here is one from today:
Evangelicals believe Jesus dies for your sins so you can pretty much do what you want in this life. Kind of like a get out of jail free card. There are people sitting in prison who would love this arrangement.
My comment:
This commenter is suggesting that Evangelicals believe that Jesus died for our sins SO that we can sin. We were already able to do that. Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead SO that we could have eternal life.
Those who understand and believe the gospel know that behavior has no relevance in whether or not someone has eternal life. Rather, they know that whoever has believed in Jesus as Savior has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.
This “arrangement,” also known as God’s plan of salvation, is available to everyone, including those in prison.
RAS, you are not teaching a false legalistic gospel.
Thanks John
I suppose it’s not necessary to believe in imputed sin to be saved. I think it is strange to deny that by one man’s transgression (Adam) death and guilt came to all men while accepting that by One Man’s death (Jesus Christ) life and imputed righteousness (justification) is given to those who believe.
I agree that Adam did not have everlasting life when he was created but he also had no guilt. There was no death but there was the capacity to die, hence the commandment. Both death and guilt are from Adam. Both life and righteousness are from Christ. The position of this fellow is that only death is from Adam, not guilt. Guilt is our own but our guilt is not legal because we were never under law therefore no penalty—just death. He can’t justify getting rid of justification but he cannot tell me what it for if sin does not carry legal guilt.
The guy is free to have his opinion but I was in the middle of witnessing to another and he basically told the other guy that I was teaching a false “legalism” gospel by saying Jesus paid the penalty for sin. Otherwise I would have let him think he was wise in his own estimation. Anyway it was a first for me.
RAS, I know of people who do not believe in imputed sin who believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. However, I think they still believe that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins (our personal sins, not the guilt of Adam’s sin imputed to us).
The Bible is replete with passages regarding sin against God, prior to the advent of the Mosaic Law.
It is useful to look at Romans 5:12, and Romans 5:18-21 apart from the parenthetical break in Romans 5:13-17.
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[19] For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
[21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The parenthetical Romans 5:13-17:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
[17] For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
I understand it as follows:
Adam did not have eternal life when he was created. If he had ever had eternal life, he could not have lost it.
He had life, which he lost when he sinned. All descendants of Adam lack eternal life and are sinners under a death sentence – both physical and spiritual. Adam, once he sinned, and all of his descendants, need the life of Christ, which is received by grace, through faith in Christ.
I am also aware of others who hold that Christ did not die to pay the penalty for our sins. I think that this view is wrong, and that scripture clearly teaches that Jesus atoned (paid the penalty) for our sins.
Romans 4:24-25:
[24] But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
[25] Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Romans 5:11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
1 Corinthians 15:3: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
For the past week I have been engaging with two individuals through the internet. The first one claims to be a new Christian, a member of the RCC. Of course his gospel is that of the RCC i.e. that justification is a process and that process is through the RCC. I explained the gospel to him; that Jesus paid the penalty for sin on the cross that that those who believe in Him for everlasting life are justified, will not into judgment and are gifted everlasting life the moment of faith. This conversation continued with us going through scripture (John, Romans, and James etc). He seem to start to understand when I pointed out that Jam 2:24 was talking about two different justifications, one by faith before God and one by works before men and that Jam 2:21,25 showed that justification happens in an instance.
Then the second individual joined the conversation and he took exception to the word “penalty” for sin. He denies imputed sin and therefore a penalty for sin. The sum of his argument is that Christ died to give life to the dead not to pay a penalty, Adam was not under the law, he himself was never under the law so neither he nor Adam bore guilt they we simply dead until being given life.
This conversation centered in Romans 5 and Genesis 2-3. He did not deny the cross or the need for life or claim to be sinless but he was denying guilt in Adam’s transgression because neither he nor Adam was under the law. He claims that “And the Lord God commanded the man, saying” (Gen 2:16-17) was “instructional” not a commandment or law because the only law is the law of Moses and sin is not imputed where there is no law.
Now first of all I believe this person is wrong. He could not explain why justification was needed if death was the only thing separating sinners from God. He could not explain how by one man came death but not guilt yet by One Man come life and righteousness. He could not see that laws change while God’s standard remains the same. He said that my position made Rom 5:12 a lie. What I fear, and why I kept at him and will keep at him is that this individual seems to hold some clout with many of the posters at this particular site as an authority. This was evident in many of his responses to me. He claimed “I only express to you what the scripture actually says” and tried to mire the conversation in Greek and the rules of grammar. When scholarship was used to prove him wrong he claimed the scholarship was based on eisegesis and not a clear reading of the scripture. He called me a legalist, a baby Christian in danger of going the way of the RCC, JW’s, Mormons and Word of Faith teachers. He said I was in danger of wanting to become God. Now as silly as those things sound they were mixed in throughout his responses with reasoning (faulty reasoning) that could make it seem reasonable to many who see the truths he proclaims yet miss his errors.
Why am I bothering any of you with this? Well I’m not sure but it’s not for my glory or brains (a small 3 pounder). I guess it’s because this is the first time that I can recall ever seriously engaging with person who firmly denies imputed sin yet claims to believe in salvation by grace through faith alone. I have now heard the argument, seen the proof text. I am processing what took place and this is my favorite site to do so.
thanks for listening.
Here is one from today, in response to someone who wrote that both Islam and Mormonism were of the devil:
We are all entitled to our opinions but before saying BOTH of those religions are of the devil you might want to take a look at the day to day actions of mormons. To me all of their morals and actions are christ-like in all of the catholic & christian views of a God. They’re some of the nicest, most selfless & giving people I know. They give so much to not only Americans but other countries as well. If thats being of the devil then you’ve set your bar of being christ-like at an unreachable height.
My comment: The writer of this comment appears to believe that works qualify someone for eternal life.
Holly, thanks for the link to the Bonhoeffer article.
I thought I remembered Metaxas as having been the author of the Bonhoeffer book.
Eric Metaxas wrote the book about Bonhoeffer. I address him in this article. His pastor is (or was) Tim Keller. He spoke at the presidential breakfast years ago and was appointed to Breakpoint when Chuck Colson died. Haven’t followed him, but I did confront him when he came to Scottsdale years ago about Bonhoeffer’s denial of a literal, physical resurrection of Christ. He said it was an ‘internet rumor’ after he looked back at his Alliance Defense Fund buddy.
https://redeemingmoments.com/2014/07/14/dietrich-bonhoeffer-should-he-be-quoted-by-christians/
Following is an excerpt from a reader comment to the Metaxas article:
The ‘church’ is not a denomination, it is the group of followers who believe Christ is the son of the one true God, believe he sacrificed himself for forgiveness of sins and in whom we continue to trust in for salvation and to help us live our lives.
My comment: Not true. The church is the group of people who have believed in Christ alone as Savior. This does not require “following” Jesus in discipleship, continuing to trust in Him for salvation, nor trusting in Him to help us live our lives.
I read an article today entitled “Americans & Evangelicals Misunderdtand Basic Christian Doctrines – Fail Theology 101,” by Eric Metaxas.
While the article had some good points, Metaxas said: “Folks, if we hope to preserve not only evangelical faith in the generations to come, but also the “mere Christianity” expressed in the Nicene Creed, we have to take theological instruction seriously again.”
My comment: the Nicene Creed fails to mention that Christ died for our sins. Perhaps that is why so many people in”churchianity” are trying to save themselves by “turning from sins,” “putting Christ on the throne of their life,” and so on.
They usually get that thinking about fruit in not understanding John 15. Obviously they have not read 2 Pet 1:5-9 .
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
John, Yes, fruit is not an accurate indicator of whether or not one is saved. Many devout Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc, bear “fruit”, but are clearly not saved. Many philanthropists, humanitarianists, the Boys/Girls Scouts of America, and even some atheists bear good “fruit”, but are clearly unsaved.
And, here is another from the same thread:
Or……If you are not a fruitful you’re condemned
My comment: The Bible does not teach that being “fruitful” is required to have, or to prove that one has, eternal life.
Here is one from today:
God has chosen his elect. read the Gospel of John. those whom he has called come to him joyfully. if someone backs away, they were never called! also, we know His true church is invisible hidden within the secular church. so when numbers are mentioned know they cannot be
My comment: God did not choose who would receive eternal life and who would not. Also, the Bible does not teach that if someone “backs away,” they were never called.
The Bible teaches that anyone who believes in Jesus as Savior has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.
Holly, Sure be my guest.
Thank you William, it’s not my paper, just a short paragraph, I separated his writings into another, but I’ll save those on it, thank you, shall I source you?
William, the Southern Baptist Covention has been steeped in Calvinism since it’s very inception.
The revered “prince of preachers” Charles Spurgeon was a dyed in the wool Calvinist.
Much of what the world knows as “Christianity” is warmed over Galatianism, codified into “church” doctrine throughout the ages by such people as Augustine, Calvin, Spurgeon, MacArthur, amd legions of their predecessors and successors.
Holly, Thank you. Good paper on Augustine. I wanted to add that Augustine had 2 mistresses during his early years and had one illegitimate child, named Adeodatus from the first mistress – in the book, “Augustine of Hippo” by Peter Brown, page 39, 1967. Augustine later dumped his first mistress and took another – “St. Augustine of Hippo” – Gerald Bonner, pg. 71, Philadelphia, The Westminster Press, 1963.
Also originated the following heresies:
1) “Purgatory” in the book, “Immortality” by Loraine Boettner, pg. 135, 1956.
2) Taught that sex was the great sin behind human misery – Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology on “Augustinianism”, page 58,
3) Taught that sex was always shameful – City of God – On Original Sin – 2.42.
4) Taught that sex was sinful if not for the purpose of procreation – City of God – On the Morals of the Manichaeans – 18.65.
5) Advocated the use of force/violence in dealing with “heretics” who did not agree with him – City of God, “On the Correction of the Donatists” – book 4, section 17, section 18, book 5, section 19, 20, book 6, section 21-24. His advocating the use of force is responsible for the genocide of millions of Bible believing Christians during the Inquisition. See also Philip Schaff, “History of the Christian Church” vol. 3, page 144, 1910.
6) Taught that the “Virgin Mary” was sinless and promoted her worship – “History of the Christian Church” volume 3, page 1021, 1910 by Philip Schaff.
7) Intercession of the saints – “History of the Christian Church” , pages 434-435, 441.
8) The use of relics and the miracles attributed to them – “History of the Christian Church” – pgs. 459-460
Augustine states the following regarding the use of force/violence:
“Why, therefore, should not the Church use force in compelling her lost sons to return, if the lost ones compelled others to their destruction?……” in City of God, “On the Correction of the Donatists” – chapter 6, section 23.
Since Calvin idolized Augustine and was his ardent admirer, Calvin emulated his master’s ways when he ruled the city of Geneva with an iron fist imposing and enforcing his Calvinist doctrine through floggings, imprisonments, banishments, torture, and burnings at the stake. Every aspect of life in Geneva was under his tight control including the way women wore their hair, jewelry, the number of dishes allowed in the kitchen, etc. Calvin was a control freak.
Augustine also states the following regarding the Catholic Church:
“The Catholic Church alone is the body of Christ, of which He is the head and Saviour of His body. Outside this body the Holy Spirit giveth life to no one, seeing that, as the apostle says himself, “The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us;” but he is not a partaker of the divine love who is the enemy of unity. Therefore they have not the Holy Ghost who are outside the Church.” – Augustine in City of God, “On the Correction of the Donatists”, 11.50.
Well, folks there you have it, Augustine who is the father of Roman Catholicism and Calvinism, often praised by many Calvinists.
I started a paper on Augustine, I start a lot on a lot of people, it keeps me from having to store it in my head 🙂
Anyways, please note the last one on the short list. His ‘conversion’.
Saint Augustine (of Hippo) November 13, 354 – August 28, 430 ACE
• “Christian” Neoplatonist (oxymoron), philosophy, dynamic panentheism 1
• Father of Calvinism-doctrines of grace,
• Doctor of the RC Church, Roman Catholic Bishop, North African Bishop
• Foremost Amillennialist (prior to Augustine, considered heresy)4. Arbitrarily made the millennium, non-literal.5
• Philosopher, (Romanized Berber Philosopher2), Medieval Philosophy1, Greek Philosphy1,
• Thought to be the true originator of “Calvinism”.
• Idolized by Calvin who cites him about 1000 times in his “Institutes of Christianity”
• AKA Augustine of Hippo, Augustin(no ‘e’), Aurelius Augustinus, St. Augustine
• Manichaeist , studied Manichaeism for about nine years.
• Monk who formed the Monastery in Hippo in Northern Africa. Took on the Monastic way of life before his ‘conversion’.
• Brought a non-literal spiritualistic approach to interpreting Scriptures. 5
• Replacement theology, making the church Israel, said “Jewish people should be treated unmercifully”. 5, 13
• Augustine’s teachings were systemized by Calvin
• Not saved by the hearing of the gospel, but two stories, and a child’s voice, that kept repeating (in French) ‘take up and read’. Neither stories, nor the two verses in the Bible (he read at the end), had anything to do with the gospel. More of Ouija board Bible understanding. 3, 12
It just goes to show that Satan who blinds the mind of these from the gospel is their god. He will save them instead by pre-regeneration (the gift of faith enabling them to believe the truth, thereby diminishing the power of the gospel to zilch).
William – glad you are well, food poisoning is just awful, would not ever like to repeat that. God bless you.
Phil R, Thanks for your prayers for me. I’m feeling much better now. Praise God!
John and RAS, Well said!
Also William, the Calvinist interpretation of Rom 9:20-21 follows from their interpretation of Rom 9:13 in which individuals are seen and not nations and love and hate are seen as heaven and hell. We can’t be having Christians supporting Israel the harlot…therefore Jacob represents the elect (the Church now) and Esau represents all those Christ chose not to die for :Simple deduction. Yuck!
William, the Augustinians/Calvinists have it all wrong. If God had not been willing to save us, he would be a different god. He would not have all of the attributes that the God of the Bible possesses.
The Calvinist god is not the God of the Bible.
It looks like Augustine was the one who originated Calvinism’s “gift of faith” heresy that John Calvin later copied which is still a major part of Calvinism’s perverse doctrines. Monkey see, monkey do on the part of Calvin and all Calvinists.
From Augustine’s shoddy book, “City of God” – “ON THE PREDESTINATION OF THE SAINTS and ON THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE, book 1, chapter 16:
Chap. 16.—Why the gift of faith is not given to all.
“Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God’s gift; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to some, while to some it is not given. But why it is not given to all ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glorieth may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in the Lord. But why He delivers one rather than another,—” His judgments are unsearchable, and His ways past finding out.” For it is better in this case for us to hear or to say, “O man, who art thou that repliest against God?” than to dare to speak as if we could know what He has chosen to be kept secret. Since, moreover, He could not will anything unrighteous.”
Notice how Augustine throws in Romans 9:20-21 at the end part of his defense? Modern day Calvinists always throw in Romans 9:20-21 in defense of their position, but their eisegesis will always be refuted with 2 Timothy 2:20-22, Jeremiah 5:18-19, Jeremiah 16:10-12.
Thanks William, I pray you will fully recover.
Phil, The albacore tuna that I ate was fresh caught in the ocean and I ate it raw, sashimi style, but it was delicious. Eating raw fish can sometimes be risky as the bacteria or whatever is in there is microscopic. I’ve been eating raw tuna fish for 33 years, but this is the first time this happened to me. I never had a problem with canned tuna before when I make tuna sandwiches.
William, I might also add Baptists and MacArthurism.
Also, was the food poisoning from the canned Albacore tuna or the tuna packs? I’m going camping at the end of the month and i like these small tuna and salmon packs that don’t require refrigeration unless they are opened.
John, good post, also.
Keith, Well said. Roman Catholicism is the mother of all whores – Revelation 17:5 who is drunk from the blood of all the martyred Christians of the Inquisition – Revelation 17:6. Calvinism/Lordship Salvation, Arminianism/Lordship Salvation, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witness doctrine, Pentacostalism, Lutheranism, Methodism, and Presbyterianism, are all the whore daughters as they all deny eternal security/once saved always saved. Satan basically repackages the same thing under different names.
Phil R. Thanks so much for your prayers for me. I am pretty much recovered after taking the antibiotics. It was a pretty bad case as I literally lost 8 pounds in one week! I was going to the restroom about 20 times a day!
Yes, those are very interesting parallels between Roman Catholicism and Calvinism. If a person doesn’t like RC, no problem, Satan has something else for them.
William, my prayers are with you that God will help you to recover from this food poisoning. It is encouraging to read your above post on the false doctrines of Calvinism. I hope this informative post is a sign of your recovery.
William, your explanations of what “election” and “predestination” really mean, when taken in their proper context, are very helpful.
And, you are right that Calvinism and Roman Catholicism share common roots.
According to the “Grace Chart” that accompanies “The Gospel” booklet by Ron Shea:
“Bilateral contract salvation” and the “Perseverance of the Saints” are two separate but interrelated doctrines within a complex theological system of salvation by works, which relies, at its core, on redefining the word “grace” as some sort of mystical empowering substance. This theological system is set forth in Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, Part 1 of the Second Part, Questions 109-114, “Treatise of Grace,” a 12th century manifesto of Roman Catholic Theology. In Protestantism, it is known as “Reformed Theology” or “Calvinism”.
The following quotes come from eminent Calvinist apologists that show the connection that Calvinism has with Roman Catholicism.
1) Richard Muller – “John Calvin was part of a long line of thinkers who based their doctrine of predestination on the Augustinian interpretation of St. Paul.” In his book, “Christ and the decree” 1988 page 22.
2) Alvin Baker – “There is hardly a doctrine of Calvin that does not bear the marks of Augustine’s influence.” In his book, “Berkouwer’s Doctrine of Election: Balance or Imbalance” pg 25. 1981,
3) Gregg C. Singer – “The main features of Calvin’s theology are found in the writings of St. Augustine to such an extent that many theologians regard Calvinism as a more full developed form of Augustinianism.” In his book, “John Calvin: His roots and fruits” , 1989, pg. viii
4) B.B. Warfield – “The system of doctrine taught by Calvin is just the Augustinianism common to the whole body of the Reformers.” In his book, “Calvin and Augustine”, page 22, 1956.
5) Loraine Boettner – “Calvin and Augustine easily rank as the two outstanding systematic expounders of the Christian system since Saint Paul”. In his book, “The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination” page 405, 1932.
6) John Calvin himself – “Augustine is so wholly with me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings” In the book, “Calvin’s Calvinism:”A treatise on the eternal predestination of God” written by John Calvin in 1552, Translated by Henry Cole, page 38, 1987.
7) B.B, Warfield – “Augustine is in a true sense the founder of Roman Catholicism” In his book, “Calvin and Augustine” page 313, 1956,
It was Augustine who invented his own twisted interpretation of “PREDESTINATION/UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION” in his book, “City of God”. Augustine states,”That owing to one man all pass into condemnation who are born of Adam unless they are born again in Christ, even as He has appointed them to be regenerated, before they die in the body, whom He predestinated to everlasting life, as the most merciful bestower of grace; whilst to those whom He has predestinated to eternal death, He is also the most righteous awarder of punishment.” – “The City of God” On the Soul and its Origin – 4.16
Again, it was Augustine who invented “IRRESISTIBLE GRACE” in his book, “The City of God” – “On the predestination of the saints” -7, 8, 16.
Augustine errantly believed that the will of God became the cause of all things – In his book, “City of God” – under “Enchiridion” – 95, 96, 100, 101.
Augustine errantly believed “that no man is saved unless God wills it.” In his book, “City of God” – under Enchiridion – 103.
It was Augustine who invented what is now known today as the 5th point of Calvinism which is “PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS”:
Augustine states, “We, then, call men elected, and Christ’s disciple’s, and God’s children, because they are to be so called whom, being regenerated, we see to live piously; but they are then truly what they are called IF they shall abide in that on account of which they are so called.” In “City of God” – “On Rebuke and Grace” – 22.
Augustine states, “It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children–whom He has regenerated in Christ–to whom He has given FAITH, hope, love, God does not give PERSEVERANCE also.” – In his book, “City of God” – “On Rebuke and Grace” – 18.
Augustine states, “But they who fall and perish have never been in the number of the predestinated.” – In his book, “City of God” – “On Rebuke and Grace” – 36.
Augustine errantly believed that salvation can be lost and he taught that only those who are regenerated by God and PERSEVERE, or in those that have lost their salvation that only after they “persevere” that
the grace of regeneration is restored, are finally saved. – In his book, “The History of Christian Doctrines” – Louis Berkhof – page 136, 1937.
Now, does not all of the above sound like what Calvinism currently teaches?
Augustine’s version of “predestination”, “irresistible grace”, and “perseverance of the saints” sounds identical to what MacArthur, Piper, and what Sproul teaches which are 3 of the biggest names in Calvinism/Lordship Salvation today. Are they not? Is that not what Calvinism teaches? Calvin’s idol was definitely Augustine.
The Bible teaches that God “predestinated” people who have willingly believed on Christ and His finished work on the cross and are saved to be transformed into immortal physical bodies of FLESH/BONE at the Rapture when Jesus returns which is a future aspect – 1 Cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:16-17 These will be eternal physical bodies just like Jesus resurrected physical body described in Luke 24:39, 1 John 3:2. Christ’s resurrected physical body is the prototype of what all saved Christians will be transformed into at the Rapture.
The Biblical passages on predestination like Ephesians 1:4-5, 11, and Romans 8:29-30 all need to be read in light of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. and 1 John 3:2. What Augustine and Calvin did was take Ephesians 1:4-5, 1:11, and Romans 8:29-30 in ISOLATION and eisegeted those texts and read their “theology” into the text falsely teaching that God “picked and choosed” whom He saves in eternity past and whom He damns in eternity past and that there is nothing man can do about it. Is this not identical to the Islamic belief of FATALISM? Is it not identical to Stoicism’s belief in determinism? Are these not all the same thing, but under different names?
In regards to true Biblical election, God elected those that are already saved for SERVICE/MINISTRY. God “elected” Moses to lead His people, God “elected” Abraham, God “elected” King David, God “elected” King Solomon after David, God “elected” Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles, God “elected” Simon Peter to be the apostle to the Jews, etc, etc. God did not “elect” people for salvation/damnation in eternity past which Calvinism falsely teaches.
“Irresistible grace” is refuted with Acts 7:51. The Pharisees and the teachers of the law resisted Jesus in Matthew 12, Mark 3, and the unbelieving Jews resisted Jesus in John 10:33, and John 12:37 despite His miracles/healings in their very presence. Jonah resisted God. The Pharisees accused Jesus of being “demon possessed” and performing exorcisms by the power of Satan. The unbelieving Jews in John10:33 accused Jesus of being only a “mere man” despite His miracles which verified that He was indeed God in human flesh.
“Perseverance of the saints” which is Augustine’s original twisted concept is also refuted with Scripture. King Solomon did not “persevere” at the end of his life, but became a serial polygamist and demon worshiper – 1 Kings 11. Does that mean that Solomon was “never saved to begin with?” NO.
Christians who don’t persevere and who even die in that state are still eternally saved.
John 10:28-29 – 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Romans 8:38-39 – 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Timothy 2:13 – 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Saved Christians are not kept eternally secure because of their own faithfulness which will always be susceptible to faltering and failure, but they are kept secure because of an UNFAILING SAVIOR.
Keith, yeah – based on Sproul’s previous body of work, he doesn’t come across as understanding grace.
Today I saw an article on Facebook entitled, “R.C. Sproul explains why it’s imperative to hold fast to the doctrine of justification by faith alone”. Isn’t that a bit like a prostitute lecturing a group of high school kids on the importance of sexual purity? There is no clearer example of how Calvinists have hijacked the Gospel.
Following is a quote from a CNN political article I read today:
Christ left room for all to redeem themselves and we should extend the same courtesy, even when it’s difficult — in fact, especially when it’s difficult. The already redeemed don’t need us to remind them about God’s grace, an unearned, unqualified favor available to anyone.
My comment: no one has ever redeemed himself. This quote completely contradicts itself.
RAS – the article is basically just a compilation by me of His Word, but of course you know that is what is good in it. I am with you, I surely feel as if time is so short, sometimes it seems very peaceful, at other times such turmoil, but looking forward to that day of our gathering together in the clouds to meet Him.
William, praying for you too.
William, I have prayed for your healing and relief from anxiety.
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, Please continue to pray for me. My condition has gotten worse and is not responding to the meds I’m on. I have not been able to sleep all night and have been praying the whole time and I’m scared.
I tell you, I think it’s very late (Come Lord). I just had an internet conversation (on a secular site) with someone calling them self HumanExtinctionIsTheOnlySolution. After getting past the crazy arguments and digesting the moniker it hit me… wow …that is what the Gospel is all about: Human extinction IS the only solution— human regeneration is the only means and Jesus Christ is the only WAY. The seed was sown…what type of soil? I’ll have to wait to see (not in the Calvinist sense).
Outstanding article you linked to Holly, thanks
Holly,thanks for posting the link to that excellent article.
Praying you feel better William, I surely can relate.
No, we the church are not under any law. Hebrews explains the New Covenant made the first, old, it is decaying, vanishing away. It is obsolete. Now the law was given to Israel through the first prophet Moses. Jesus is our Priest, Prophet and King. Below is an article John and Jack graciously reprinted about the law, not sure how up to date, there is so much on that it would take multiple articles.
As for ‘no more sacrifice’, there is no more sacrifice, even though those priests stood daily ministering to it, sin had been taken away by the final sacrifice, the Lamb of God, the sacrifice that God promised to provide, Jehovah Jireh. We see it in Abraham’s offering of Isaac. We all willfully sin, probably more often than not in the beginning of our walk and so to say a sacrifice which perfected us forever is being spoken of is just poor interpretation.
Arminians often read that sacrifice as speaking to a believer (whether Jew or Gentile) that willfully sins. What is spoken of here I believe, is the persecution of Jewish believers who are considering going back under the law, the sacrificial system, the old way, in favor of not suffering at the hands of the non believing Jews. To give into that pressure would be trampling the Son of God underfoot and counting His blood an unholy thing. There would be consequences, both in this life and at the Judgment seat of Christ. Fear because these believers knew better, yet this would be a fall from grace (similar to those in Galatia) and they would be back into bondage. Many of us can relate to times in our lives where we lived in fear for that very reason.
Here is the link if any want some Bible verses regarding the fulfillment of the law, who it was given to, etc.
John, one of the big deceptions of Calvinism and Arminianism is that believers no longer have to keep the ceremonial laws or the separation laws but must keep the moral law for salvation. Both Christ (Matt. 5:22 and 28-30) and Paul (Romans 7:7, 3:19, 20) made it clear that the moral law condemns everyone and cannot justify a person before God.
Also, my prayers for William for a speedy recovery.
Thank you John.
William, I have prayed for you, my friend.
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, Please pray for me. I just came down with a severe case of food poisoning after eating albacore tuna that was probably contaminated. I’m on antibiotics right now. I appreciate your prayer support. Thanks.
And here is one that is really weird:
…the Old Testament laws were divided into three categories: moral laws, ceremonial laws, and separation laws. Moral laws are always in force, but Christ’s sacrifice defers the spiritual punishment until death. Ceremonial laws were removed with his sacrifice, and separation laws only apply to the Jewish people.
My comment: Hogwash! Christians are not under any of the OT law. Christ’s sacrifice does not “defer” spiritual punishment for breaking laws, it removes guilt and punishment for believers.
Here is an interesting tidbit from a women accused of child abuse:
Her Christian beliefs were the “guiding values” that influenced her behavior when she punished her son on Feb. 3, according to the motion to dismiss filed by her attorney, Greg Bowes…
She believed she needed to take “strong corrective action” to save her daughter from her son’s harmful behavior, according to the motion to dismiss. Otherwise, her son “would not earn his salvation with God after his death.”
My comment: Based solely on the quote from the motion to dismiss (the child abuse charge), this woman doesn’t hold any Christian beliefs. No one who holds Christian beliefs would think someone had to earn his own salvation.
Benchap, if people think those things are necessary to have eternal life, then I agree with you.
Yep, that too.
How does one turn from sins and continue in faithful obedience without believing they are meriting their salvation or seeing that they are contradicting “free gift of eternal life”?
Benchap, me too.
Plus, it is all Chtistians who will be raptured.
“Many of God’s faithful followers will be protected from the tribulation (Revelation 3:10). And, most importantly, Jesus promises eternal life to all who truly believe, turn from sin and persevere in their faithful obedience: “He who endures to the end shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13).
Since we know that the handwriting is on the wall, what will we now choose to do?”
Whenever I see “truly believe” or “true believe” it is almost always followed by a false Gospel.
I’ve seen and heard that one before in local Baptist circles.
They’ll usually follow your claim with “to turn to Christ you turn away from something (sin)…we’re not teaching works salvation, blah blah blah”.
Here is an excerpt from a comment I read today:
God already has judged them guilty. Christians just reminds evil doers of God’s wrath & to turn from their wicked ways to his son Christ in obedience to his word for Salvation!
My comment: If someone isn’t a believer, he stands condemned. But, it is not necessary to turn from wicked ways for eternal salvation. To think one MUST turn from sins in order to gain eternal life is not obedience to God’s word – it is a denial of God’s word.
Eternal life is a gift, received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Curtis, good point.
here is a thought to ponder are there any sacrifices under the mosaic Law for willful sins? or practicing sin it is also called ?
socal, your interpretation is consistent with grace.
I have seen grace believers with several different interpretations, summarized in the comment linked below.
John,
I’ve noticed there’s no explanation for Hebrews 10:26 (on this page (at least one that shows up in the search), and I’ve been confronted several times lately as a ‘proof-text’ that one can lose salvation.
This is my response.:
In Hebrews 10, the author is contrasting the old sacrifices and the New Sacrifice (Christ). as for v.26, it’s already been explained by v.18:
17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.”
There is no offering for sin if we sin, because the sacrifice for our sin has been pain once and for all, as stated earlier in the context:
“11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified”
As for v.27 and after, it’s talking about those Jews who were persecuting the original recipients, who no longer had a viable sacrifice for their sin, and were in fact persecuting the One and only Sacrifice left.
Just in case anyone searches for this verse or Hebrews 10:26-27.
I would prefer that we move on.
I’m not all that into preachers who mumble then yell. It sets off my hyperacuity, and his tone and anger at his flock really hurt me spiritually. If I was in that church I would have walked out and may have written-off his “grace” belief like I have written off Calvinism due to the manners of the Calvinists.
I hear you socal , the next sermon Radke settles down and admits people were having trouble following him . He is loud and goes off yes , but to equate him to Paul Washer is not fair .
for sometime i didn’t listen to any preaching coming out of indoctrination . I had been beating myself up with religious self effort calling myself worm food being self absorbed in the depravity of man of calvinism.
I tried to listen to one of Radtke’s teachings on 1 John 2, and he was so in the flesh and screaming and pounding about something with the people in his church, because he was berating and browbeating specific issues with “christians” that I had to turn him off and do a brain dump. He sounded like Paul Washer in his indignation.
I’ll stick with Arnold, Cucuzza and Rokster.
Amen Curtis. I also agree about Charlie Clough.I highly recommend his Bible Framework series and website (224 lessons).
To defend the Gospel Proclaim the Gospel
as the Holy Spirit leads and given opportunity if i sense a soul is religious I like to ask ” are my sins paid for ? ”
another one “what is God’s standard for righteousness ?”
I myself don’t bring up “Lordship salvation ” all souls are natural born legalist Just keep pointing souls to Jesus .finished work
below is a teaching series by charles clough he is one simple smart cookie
from that series i learned how to handle a tough question about homosexuality and the gospel of Grace objection “all pagan cultures had sodomy ” call it what it is it is sodomy
see how the objection is smartly dealt with and move forward with the Gospel of Grace
Charles Clough
Not Ashamed Of The Gospel
http://gracebiblestudies.org/Series.aspx?SeriesId=17
good message on first John
Pastor Leonard Radtke
1 John
Description: #5 – 1 John 2:12-15
Date: 11/23/1977
http://www.gracebiblestudies.org/Message.aspx?MessageID=218
SoCal, the gospel itself (along with a good explanation from a source such as “The Gospel” booklet) is the best.
I think the articles “You Might Be a Lordship Salvationist If…” (Parts 1 and 2) might be helpful.
I would also be interested in our readers’ thoughts on those things that they have found helpful.
John, can you do (or do you have) a post on what arguments/points you find effective in dealing with those deceived by Lordship Salvation?
Mary
“I could not get him to separate justification and sanctification, he said its part of the gospel. ”
Nice catch , that has been my experience as well with pastors who err on the gospel ,they will agree on Gospel up but when pressed it is sanctification by works and are spiritually drunk on another gospel and by using sleight desiring not to be drunk alone on frustrated grace.
tossed to and fro, by the sleight of men
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Socal, I have some thoughts on 1 John 2. I’d like to expand on the point you made on us knowing Him, vs. Him knowing us.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Finish with vs. 5, keeping his words shows us that the love of God is ‘perfected in us’.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
In John 8, we are told to ‘continue in His Word.’
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
In 1 Pet 2, knowledge is one of the things believers are to add to their faith (vs. 5-6). In 2 Pet 3, it says we need to grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior. I kind of reflect back on Peter being asked by Jesus if he loved him (in John 21). Peter was clean, he failed on some fronts. He denied Him, and He even fell into not walking uprightly about the truth of the gospel. Anyways, I believe ‘knowing’ Him has to do with being in fellowship with Him, and growing in His grace by abiding in Him and continuing in His Word.
Mary, I have prayed that this pastor will not corrupt minds from the simplicity of Christ.
Thanks John, he was saying that a changed life is proof that we are saved, he said someone who just makes a profession of faith, how can you know he is saved, if he does not continue in the faith. I said to him thats the only evidence, i think he has been taught the false faith vs the genuine faith, like MacArthur does. He just could not separate the justification and sanctification. These are lordshippers and I will not sit under their teachings.
He opens a new church tomorrow morning how sad, how many people will be infected and affected by his false gospel, he thinks god has commissioned him to start this church. Lots say to me they think god is blessing Macarthurs church. At the end of the day, we don’t know if MacArthur is saved, but he certainly is preaching a false gospel and he messes up peoples lives with his poisonous doctrine. You can’t tell them, they just will not listen. Very frustrating…….
fellowship
ye also may have fellowship
that ye also may have fellowship with us
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
They try to make a distinction between the “commandments of the Mosaic Law” and the “commandments of Christ”. Obviously without realizing that the entire Bible is Christ.
SoCal, obeying the gospel (believing in Jesus as Savior) is the only obedience required for eternal life. No one obeys His commandments perfectly, so obedience to His commandments cannot be a litmus test for a “true believer.” If it were, everyone would fail.
Heaven is a perfect place, not a place just for people who are being “pretty good” at keeping His commandments.
You make a great point that Him knowing us is what is referenced in Matthew 7.
Someone brought up 1 John 2:4 as proof works (keeping commandments) plays a role in salvation:
“If you say you love God and believe in God but live a life of complete disobedience than you are a liar. According to John. (1 John 2:4)”
My response:
“[It] Doesn’t say “complete disobedience”, it says “doesn’t keep His commandments”. Check out 1 John 1:8 and James 2:10. But knowing Christ isn’t a condition of eternal life, CHRIST KNOWING YOU is a condition of eternal life; see Matthew 7:22-23,”
How do you answer this one?
John, had a conversation where an Anglican said exactly the same thing and couldn’t move past it.
How do you do it without being exhausted? I discuss these things with people who don’t want to hear it and I walk away drained.
Holly, there is a difference between “making progress,” and “not continuing sinning.” Neither are required to have eternal life, nor assurance of eternal life.
Mary, we are sanctified (some call this “positional sanctification”) the moment we believe in Jesus as Savior.
1 Corinthians 6:11: And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
But, if the pastor with whom you were speaking was referring to the process of being transformed (some people call this “progressive sanctification”), one does not have to believe this will happen in order to receive eternal life. That is because it requires our cooperation. Paul wouldn’t have beseeched us, as brothers and sisters in Christ, to do something that was required to become brothers and sisters in Christ.
Romans 12:1-2: [1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
‘Should be making progress’ is a whole lot different then not ‘continue sinning’. So did David and Moses lose their salvation when they murdered?
I have just spent the last hour and a half talking to a Baptist pastor who is opening a new church down the road, i thought i could visit it, so I thought I could ring him and ask him where he stands on the gospel and as usual they agree with u that u can’t lose it. I could not get him to separate justification and sanctification, he said its part of the gospel. I told him the only evidence we need is if someone professes to understand the gospel then they are saved. EASY BELIEVISM IS WHAT THEY ARE SILENTLY SCREAMING.
So he said, so just a profession was enough, I said as long as they are trusting in the finished work of christ. He was horrified, he said just a profession is not enough, i found him so confusing, i told him he was preaching a subtle form of works. Could not see it. He was really saying that we are justified by faith, but sanctification is part of justification, while saying we are saved by faith alone and not by works, I know there is lots of Calvanism and lordship in his current church, so how can I sit under that confusing gospel.
A very pleasant man to talk to, I told him to re-think his gospel, I don’t think that went down to well. You can see he didn’t want me visiting his church, thought i would cause trouble, he said you must have it out with me and not the people in the church. I told him as a pastor god would hold him accountable for the gospel he is teaching , i said to him I thought, getting the gospel right was the most important thing.
I came off the phone thinking am I being too picky, you can even doubt your position, so you have to reassure yourself that you are on the right track and be so solid on what you believe…..
Here is an excerpt of a comment from another site:
…this whole time I could be a sleeping around, lying, stealing, heck even murder someone instead of trying to live a godly life pleasing to Him and still go to heaven? Jesus died for those sins, so as long as I believe, I can continue sinning? Why on earth would I want to live a godly life then? So I can have a few more blessings here and rewards in heaven? How about I live Luke warm so I can have some blessings and still enjoy sin? I don’t want the Holy Spirit in my life guiding me, I don’t want Him to change my ways, but since I believe that he died for my sins, I’m all set for heaven? I SHOULD be making progress in my Christian life but I don’t really have to, right? That’s a gospel everyone wants. Who would turn that down? Why would anyone?
My comment: Who would turn that down? Lots of people. Based on the commenter’s questions, it is not clear that he understands or believes the gospel. Why would anyone? Because they insist on the futility of trying to save themselves.
I love reading how they all put a different spin on it, but teach exactly the same thing.
The Catholics point at the protestants as the protestants point at the Catholics and cults. They’re all on the same side.
One more I found today:
We are steeped in the Western evangelical view of the courtroom metaphor, where God is the judge, we are the wicked, sinful defendant, and Jesus is our rescuer/stand-in/defense attorney. Consider the predominantly Eastern Orthodox metaphor that sin is a disease – we are afflicted with something that we cannot cure ourselves. God’s position, in contrast to an angry judge, is one of a concerned parent. He has the cure and is making it available to us.
My comment: God’s plan of salvation through Jesus is not a metaphor, either Eastern or Western. Before one believes in Jesus as his Savior, he has no spiritual life. Once one believes in Jesus as Savior, he has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited. This is true, even if a believer’s life never changes in any way in terms of sinning less, or in terms of doing good works.
Hence, if the commenter intends to mean that the “Eastern Orthodox metaphor” requires one to believe that Jesus is going to “change his life,” it implies that eternal life is received by one allowing Jesus to change his life. This would, by implication, be teaching Lordship “salvation” and justification by works, wherein justification is a process by which our lives are transformed (borrowed wording heavily from Clear Gospel Ministries).
Here are two more that I found today. Both of them seem to share a common theme – that believing in Jesus for eternal life MUST also entail believing that He is going to “clean up” your life. See below:
1. I think the most loving thing we can say to someone who is trapped in any lifestyle of sin is “God can take that from you, and heal you, and make you truly whole. It won’t be easy, or free of pain, but He will do it! For it is the only way to gain eternal spiritual life.”
My comment: First, we can’t assume that someone “trapped in any lifestyle of sin” is a non-believer. Second, once a person believes in Jesus as his Savior, he may begin to have victory over sinful patterns in his life. But, this is by no means guaranteed. Therefore, one does not have to believe that Jesus is going to change his life in order to receive eternal life. A person receives eternal life by believing in Jesus as his Savior.
2. Though we all fall short and are covered by the grace of our Heavenly Father, he still gives His commandments and tells of our sins that we are to repent and turn from or else warns of our destiny. We have two choices, heaven or hell, bible is clear on that. If we don’t warn our brothers and sisters, OUT OF LOVE for them then we’re not being loving. God told the woman at the well, go and sin no more…he states to turn from your evil ways. Jesus was the perfect example of how to live. He faced trials and temptations and overcame them all. He has given us that ability if we just have faith and trust in Him and allow Him to lead us by the one He left with us, the Holy Spirit.
My comment: There is no biblical record that Jesus told the woman at the well to go and sin no more. I believe the commenter may have been referring to the woman caught in adultery. We do not receive eternal life by “turning from sin.” This is basic salvation by works religion that has never saved anyone. We receive eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Holly, a lot of the false views of the gospel seem to hinge on a faulty view of grace. The Bible teaches that grace reflects God’s disposition (inclination) to justify a lost sinner apart from the works of the law. Most of the other views center on God providing a person power, through divine enablement, to persevere in good works that either qualify them for eternal life, or confirm that they have received eternal life.
RAS – I like that… “a car battery is still a battery, even if dead”.
These men have never considered charging the battery to make it useful again. The remedy is, feed His sheep (that is if they love Him)…
John, I was thinking on the man who said, “To say you have faith in Jesus and do nothing about it is to make a false claim.”
I guess he never acknowledged the words believer, brethren, beloved, etc. in James beforehand. And evidently doesn’t understand how we can be unfaithful. The claim cannot be false since the Holy Spirit in inspiring those same Scriptures identified them as believers and He doesn’t lie.
Curtis, I have never heard the “sinners like you and me” line. That is really crafty, and not in a good way.
hear is another subtle one i just picked up on when relistened to a sermon and challenged me to repent (change my thinky about Christ Jesus) The pastor challenged me that calvanist and the like will use “sinners like you and me” in witnessing . Because they cant say christ Jesus died for all because You may not be an elected one
“Sinners like you and me ” Now that sounds good and there even is a song wrote about it. The works for or because of salvation loves it for it appeals to the flesh . However what did Paul Preach ?
“that Christ died for our sins ” our means our Paul included himself with them all to the saved and unsaved .
“sinners like you and me ” Now that is a pretty slick twist on a gospel that is not The Gospel
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Some are more subtle. Like this:
Sin, pride, and rebellion, which won’t be in Heaven, versus obedience, humility and submission, which would be the heart conditions that lead people to either receive redemption through Christ, or not. Everyone is a sinner. But sinners who aspire God’s heart end up saved through Christ’s death. Sinners who want God of their own free will will also want to go the way of obedience, humility, and submission.
My comment: if by “obedience,” the commenter means “obeying the gospel” (by believing it), I would agree. If by “humility,” the writer means to understand that one cannot save himself, I agree. And, if by “submission,” the writer means submitting to Christ’s righteousness versus seeking to establish one’s own righteousness, then I would agree.
Otherwise, obedience and submission could mean agreeing to obey Christ and to make Him “Lord of our lives” in order to receive eternal life. If either of those things are intended by the writer, that would make her gospel a false gospel of works.
Yikes! That’s more severe than the first. Maturity equals impeccability? The apostles sinned no more? It might not be a new one but it’s at a level I rarely encounter. As you mentioned it contains the common conflations and the typical inconsistencies of LS though. Thanks for sharing.
RAS, here are excerpts from another person who thinks that believing in Jesus as Savior entails believing that he WILL change your life. This is similar to e-mail traffic that I have received that basically says that to insist that a person’s life may not change when he becomes saved is tantamount to having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof (2 Timothy 3:5).
The power to sin no more lies in truly believing or knowing who God is and his divine nature. By “being like Jesus” is to tap into the power of the spirit of God/Holy Spirit. Truly having the spirit of God completely indwell in you will make you no different than Jesus…
A misunderstood point about salvation. Salvation is a “life long endeavor” and not an instant ticket into the kingdom of heaven/God by saying some magical words like “I am a sinner, come into my heart and forgive me.” Admitting that I am a sinner and always will be if not for the power of God within you is just the start or turning point from heading toward death to heading toward a new life/birth into growing into a “fully mature” Christian/imitator of Christ/God.
A mature Christian will be able to follow/imitate Jesus and his disciples/apostles to be able to “sin no more.” This is not some unattainable goal, but is an expected state of “being” that all truly mature Christians should be able to practice and uphold. “Sin no more” is not only possible but expected of us if we are to enter the kingdom of heaven.
My comment: This comment was written in response to a thread on the woman caught in adultery. The commenter does not appear to understand the gospel. He is confusing imputed righteousness (which one receives when we believes in Christ alone as his Savior), with lifestyle. He is conflating believing in Jesus as Savior with believing that Jesus will change one’s behavior. Since a change in behavior is not necessary to prove one has eternal life, there is no way that believing in the inevitability of a changed life is a necessary part of becoming a believer in Christ.
Further, the commenter does not appear to believe in eternal security, but rather seems to believe that justification is a process in which one allows Jesus to “change his life.”
Finally, the commenter is internally inconsistent. The Holy Spirit permanently indwells all believers in the church age (although Jesus’ encounter with the woman caught in adultery is prior to the start of the church age, which makes the commenter’s comment all the more errant). Yet, if that makes them no different than Jesus, why would they need to follow or imitate Jesus?
That’s horrible but much too common. I wish I had a nickel for every time (in the past year alone) that I have heard Matt 7:16 and 21 used incorrectly. A fruit fad has over taken politicians and television talking heads and even “discernment” websites. Of course they always skip v15 and the last part of v18. And the fact that the people referenced (Matt 7:21-23) do not deny Jesus as Lord but they do deny him as Savior (the narrow gate) by proclaiming their own works (the wide gate) is completely lost on them.
James’ questions have nothing to do with the eternal destination of the believers he is addressing (1:18) but concerns the here and now as evident by v15-16. Faith can be dead but it is still faith just like my car battery is still a car battery when it is “dead”.
If people would spend as much time searching scripture for evidence of their conclusions as the spend searching themselves for evidence of faith much confusion could be avoided.
Thanks for keeping an eye out for this stuff John.
Following is a rather long-winded interpretation of James 2:14 that is simply Lordship “salvation” under the guise of grace:
The bottome line, true faith will result in works. Works alone do not save, works are the natural result of true faith. Love is much the same. As Christ stated, love for Him will result in doing the things He commanded. To say you have faith in Jesus and do nothing about it is to make a false claim. We are saved by grace through faith as the Bible teaches. As a result of faith we do those things God has asked. Abraham and Rahab did the same. Can faith save someone who claims to have faith but does nothing about his claimed faith? That is the question of verse 14, and the answer is clearly no. If the person really has faith, his faith would drive natural actions. Jesus said “not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” – Matthew 7:21. Again, those who claim to have faith, but fail to do the will of God, the natural reaction of true faith, have no home in heaven. Notice the action words that result from true saving faith.
My comment: How would someone ever have assurance of eternal life? It would have to be based on his self-assessment of whether his combination of good works and behavioral reformation proved his faith. Alternatively, he would have to draw assurance from his intention to be faithful (faith in his good intentions – and there is an old saying about good intentions). Or, finally, he would have to believe that his faith in Christ was going to result in good works and behavioral modification, and when the good works and behavioral modification were manifested in sufficient quantity/combination, that would confirm his circular belief. And, if those confirmatory actions were lacking, he would have to go back to square one and “try to believe in Jesus again.” Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
Curtis, wow!
So many want to come up with their own gospels.
yea heres one concerning “following ”
There is a singing group coming to the fundamentalist church i once attended . So I looked up their statement concerning the gospel for salvation
*That each person when presented with the Gospel must then choose who they will follow (Matthew 19:16-27, Joshua 24:15, John 3:15-17)
My comments below :
choose who they will follow
Really ?
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
1Co_1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
Ben, I know what you mean. I have tried to remove that stuff from my vocabulary.
If you haven’t already seen it, you might like the article on this subject, linked below:
John, my favourite remains “real” or “true Christian”, terms used by people who perceive themselves as saved because they are “trying to follow God” or “don’t sin habitually” etc.
They don’t need Christ, they’re righteous!
Benchap, here is another, from today:
Christians who follow Christ would warn them that continuing to practice such behaviors will send them right to hell (per the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11)…
Furthermore, Scripture cites a warning for those “Christians” who approve of such behaviors in Romans 1:32.
My comment: Behaviors do not send anyone to hell. One doesn’t have to do anything to go to hell. Whoever does not believe in Christ is condemned already (John 3:18).
Romans 1:32 is not a warning for those “Christians.” It is part of a sweeping passage that lets every single person in the world know that he is a sinner under a death penalty, and therefore in need of a Savior.
The commenter is advancing and defending a false religion of works that he has mistaken for Christianity.
Benchap, what is is really sad is that these two comments were some of the least virulent of the LS-laden, condemning comments.
Most were focused on Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, with either no mention (or scant mention) of the grace of God, available through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
Two comments that highlight the typical beliefs of the modern “Christian”.
Here are a couple that I came across today:
1. I am a man of faith. I believe that God is loving and forgiving of anyone’s sin of any kind when the person repents, and turns from the sinful action. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, “Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.” The last part is critical, it requires a change of direction in her life.
My comment: You claim to be a man of faith, but faith in what/whom? One does not have to change direction in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
2. I don’t hate Trey, and love him, and will pray for him, but this lifestyle he choose will lead straight to the Gates of Hell. His sin is equal to me telling a lie, or having hate in my heart to another person. No sin is to big for Christ to forgive! Lord has endless grace and mercy! I’m a sinner saved by God’s Grace and Mercy and Christ has changed my life! I’m not saved by dead religion, or by good works, but by receiving the gift of salvation through the love of Christ! John 3:16
My comment: This was in response to an article about a Christian performer coming out as gay. The commenter is right that no sin is too big for Christ to forgive. The commenter says that he is not saved by dead religion, or by good works, but by receiving the gift of salvation through the love of Christ. However, the commenter says that the lifestyle that Trey chose will lead to the gates of hell. It is not consistent to both believe that eternal life is a free gift, received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, while simultaneously believing that one’s lifestyle will determine his eternal destiny.
And, while it is great that Christ has changed the commenter’s life, what if his life changes back? Believing in Jesus as Savior does not require believing that He will change your life. It requires believing that He paid for all of our sins at Calvary.
Saw this post on Facebook today:
I want deliberately to encourage this mighty longing after God. The lack of it has brought us to our present low estate. The stiff and wooden quality about our religious lives is a result of our lack of holy desire. Complacency is a deadly foe of all spiritual growth. Acute desire must be present or there will be no manifestation of Christ to His people. He waits to be wanted. Too bad that with many of us He waits so long, so very long, in vain. The Pursuit of God by A.W. Tozer
My comment: the “stiff and wooden quality” about the spiritual lives of most in the evangelical church today stems largely from lack of assurance about where they will spend eternity, due to the false gospels of Calvinism and LS. Flesh-driven religious exercises and a mediocre spirituality in which the person in question draws comparisons between his or her level of devotion and commitment and those of others are the inevitable result.
These popular Reformed theologians like to lambast people for not being devoted, committed or holy enough but do not tell them the solution, and that is to believe the Gospel with childlike faith in its simplicity and power, completely apart from one’s works, commitment, good intentions or worthiness. They are like the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:4:
“For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers”.
Jon – Clay Nuttal is a nut.
“No one ever comes to Christ for salvation without first dealing with his or her sin.” – Clay Nuttall
In the flesh, the old man, we are unable to ‘deal with our own sin’,
“For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. Rom 7:5
And it is Jesus Christ who DEALT with our sin. Once for all, by one sacrifice we are perfected (Heb 10:10,14). Why doesn’t it say, “He who comes to me (and deals with their sin), I will in no wise cast out” (Jn 6:37)? Or why doesn’t His Word say, “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, DEAL WITH YOUR SIN, and THEN I will give you rest”?
How can sin be DEALT with? Only by the shedding of blood and it must be a perfect sacrifice, because without a sinless sacrifice, it is a temporary solution. So do they think we can somehow come to God with a temporary solution in hand and bring it to Him as some sort of sacrifice in exchange for the forgiveness of sin? Without shedding of blood there is NO REMISSION (Heb 9:22).
These people have been drinking self-righteous Satanically blinding Kool-Aid. Forgive my bluntness here, but they are only bringing filthy rags of their own self- righteousness (Is 64:6) which comes from the law (Phil 3:9).
Johninnc – your guy quoting 1 Cor 6:9-11 and Romans 1, I had to chuckle a little because in Romans 1, they always see the ‘big’ sins, and miss that this is a list of what unrighteousness is, and avoid the ‘littler’ ones or don’t even drink them in at all…
He better look up anything classified as wicked in the Bible and figure out, that all sin is wicked. Has he ever coveted? Been malicious to another? Envious? Hated someone (guilty of murder? Debated? Deceived (lied)? Whispered about someone? Been a backbiter? Proud or boastful? Disobedient to parents?
The thing that I don’t think they’ve ever even considered on the list, have they or are they now ‘without understanding’ (undiscerning)? Then by their own standards, they’re a goner….
Yes
And For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
And the whole doctrine of subustionary aattonment.
The demonstrated sacrifices of the old testament.
Oh and the the on the cross
I smell smoke clay and it’s not BBQ chicken
If our sin problem is dealt with before coming to Jesus, why do we need to come to Jesus? For what reason should we be thankful toward Him?
The quote attempts to sound godly, but it denies the Lord completely.
Jon, I agree with you completely. Jesus dealt with our sin.
Here’s something I just read today: “No one ever comes to Christ for salvation without first dealing with his or her sin.” -Clay Nuttall
Does this not fly in the face of Romans 5:8 which says: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Latest from today:
1 Corinthians 9-11, Romans 1:24-32. If one does not believe the Words in the Bible, and abstain from such immorality, then their home after death is hell according to scripture. Just saying.
My comment: The writer has zero understanding of the gospel. One does not receive eternal life by abstaining from immorality. One receives eternal life by grace through faith in Christ alone.
Interesting conversation you saw John. The Colonel sounds like he has been listening to John MacArthur, who tells that story in a similar fashion, his viewpoint is because the ruler isn’t willing to let go of his wealth, unwilling to forsake all, in order to enter the kingdom he says….
I will try to make this easy to follow. These are excerpts from a “give and take” between two commenters about the meaning of Jesus’ interaction with the rich young ruler in Luke 18:18-23.
Commenter A calls himself “The Colonel,” and is a Southern Baptist.
Commenter B calls herself “Mary.”
Neither one seems to have a clue.
________________________________________________
The Colonel:
The guidance was specific to the “rich young ruler” not intended to be guidance for us all as it is never mentioned as a requirement to anyone else. (an edit here, I did not intend to say that the verse doesn’t have application to all Christians but rather that it deals with a specific heart condition addressed in 1 Timothy 6:10. My point is that you don’t have to live in sackcloth and ashes to be a Christian. The “guidance” I am addressing is that the rich young ruler was to give it all away – you don’t have to be a pauper to follow Christ but the love of money makes it impossible) The rich young ruler was looking for a formula for salvation rather than salvation itself. In order to point this out, Jesus pointed to his one true weakness, his love of his wealth.
Mary:
The problem I see is that many modern Christians, particularly far right evangelicals is they want a plan for salvation that requires little of nothing of them. They want to come to church on Sunday, give some money, pray for forgiveness and then repeat the same next week. They read the entire story you are discussing and like you dismiss it as not applicable to me. They have their home, their cars, their beach house, their club memberships, etc. etc. and they sit by and watch poor people starve every day, they watch refugees die from lack of food and shelter. Surely god does not expect them to help those people.
I think god’s message here is being rich will not keep you out of heaven, but will make it much harder for you to get there. You should concentrate on your salvation. Not on accumulating wealth in this world. You should should spend your money on helping others, and not stash it away in your piggy bank.
Unfortunately I think your analysis is what most Christians like. i.e. that was not intended for me. I can handle the wealth. I will be one of the “very few” rich people god pushes through the eye of the needle. I will be the exception to the rule. I can have it all.
________________________________________________
My comments:
The Colonel has a misunderstanding of this passage that is very common. That is, the false belief that each person has something he must give up (his sin of choice) in order to receive the free gift of eternal life.
Jesus was not telling the rich young ruler that he was required to give up his wealth in order to have eternal life. Rather, he was telling him that he needed to quit trusting in keeping the law for eternal life, because he had already broken it, and was therefore disqualified.
There is only one plan of salvation. It is not “customized” to each person, based on his particular sin.
Mary also has a misunderstanding of the gospel. God’s plan of salvation does not require that we “concentrate on our salvation” (that is, receiving eternal life is not a “work in process”). Nor does receiving eternal life require anything of us. It requires only that we trust in His provision for our salvation – Jesus.
Daniel – definitely not even in the slightest annoyed. I too was bullied and mocked, and at a Christian High School, even by the teachers there, one in front of a whole group of high school boys (he didn’t know my hearing was so good). Still, even in the feelings, Jesus is a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief… We are just trying to point you to what He tells us in His Word, so we can do what He asks us to, in order that others may know Him.
God bless you and give you comfort.
Daniel, please always feel free to come back and visit us here at expreacherman.com. We’re still human and we all experience all kinds of trials and tribulations and I’m happy that you also shared your struggles with us.
Galatians 6:2 – Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Daniel, your comment – “Umm.. Guys…. On believers justification post.
Did I anger someone? Because of before. I didn’t go to it because if there’s a reply from someone that’s… Annoyed…
If I did. IF I did. It was never my intent. I feel kind of like a jerk.
I might not come back until March. I will still read stuff on here but not comment for a while. See you guys for now.”
My comment – Daniel, please don’t worry. You did not anger or annoy anyone here. You were being honest about how you felt about people in your school bullying you and I am glad that you shared. I myself, have experienced many instances of bullying in the schools that I attended. I was even bullied and despised in a CHRISTIAN HIGH SCHOOL.
I was made fun of and bullied because of the fact that I am Asian and not white. It was stupid of the other students to do that, but it still happened despite the fact that this was a Christian high school. Daniel, when others bully or harass us, we sometimes need to speak up or take action like going to the authorities and not let idiots walk all over us. One of my former downstairs tenant’s son was bullied a lot when he was back in high school as well. He was spit on and physically assaulted because of the fact that he was Asian which resulted in his taking martial arts to defend himself. The bullies left him alone. My tenant’s son went on and became a karate champion.
Self defense for the Christian is justified. Did you know that King David and his men were great martial artists of their time? The same was true of King Solomon and his men. ( 1 Chronicles 11:10-47, 1 Chronicles 21:5, Judges 20:17, Song of Songs 3:8, 2 Samuel 24:9.)
Benchap, It’s very hard for me to love those who are con artists. It’s easier said than done. The most I can do is pray for them, but nothing beyond that.
Oh for goodness sake.
God loved Paul (a murderer of Christians). So yes, you can love a con artist.
“Not of yourselves”
“Calvinism and Arminianism” and all the other ist’s, ism’s and ite’s all minister to self the old man through systems of thought. in an attempt to make the old sinful nature less sinful. when God will have no parts of the old nature God starts all over with a New creation , when a soul is born again by the precious blood of Jesus by His finished work by Grace through faith the old sin nature is made inoperative we then are given the freedom , permission to choose Life or death , spiritual or carnal .
the old sinful nature hates that it cant help God out to live the christian life and opposes Grace
God ask will you collapse into the finished work of Christ , Quit working, Stop being religious, drop dead and avail yourselves , Yield, appropriate the Free Gift of righteousness
its ok Jesus is not a crutch He is more like a couch
not of yourselves Not of works
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
which are by Jesus Christ
Php 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
William, your comments bring tears to my eyes, and that may or may not move you, but I ask you to consider these things. The outcome of our love towards one of these is not in our hands, but God determines the increase whether someone throws a tract in the garbage or not. Everyone is our neighbor. All of the lost are our enemies. Those who hate us, those who are unthankful, those who are spiteful, those who revile us, those who use us, the Scriptures are clear, God loves them, sent His Son for them and desires NONE of them should perish. With great love He died for me, He gave Himself for me, how dare I not love those who are unlovely? I was unlovely, I was an enemy of God, I was a wretch like them. But God is love, and we should be showing the same undeserved love towards others.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Gal 5:14
And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward ALL men, even as we do toward you: to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 1 Thess 3:12-13
(Love toward ALL MEN IS fulfilling the royal law-James 2:8)
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 1 John 4:8-9
God’s love is for the whole world, and His kindness, grace and love has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11; 3:4). He has given us a spirit of love (2 Tim 1:7) and it is one of the things we are to follow after (1 Tim 6:11), it is part of who we are to be. We are to love those who hate us.
We are to love those who spitefully use us…
And love those who persecute us…
Love our neighbor as ourselves
He is kind to the unthankful, should we not follow His example?
He is kind to the evil, should we not also do the same?
God so loved the world….
William, you asked, ” Are we as Christians to love people who are con artists who pretend to be what they are not?”
Yes. The Bible is clear. It doesn’t say to be unwise, it says to love our enemy. It says to pray for ALL men (1 Tim 2:1-6), because He gave Himself a ransom for ALL. He loves the whole world, why should I not?
Umm.. Guys…. On believers justification post.
Did I anger someone? Because of before. I didn’t go to it because if there’s a reply from someone that’s… Annoyed…
If I did. IF I did. It was never my intent. I feel kind of like a jerk.
I might not come back until March. I will still read stuff on here but not comment for a while. See you guys for now.
Good post, John. I read that Mormons have a shameful history of white supremacy in their doctrine and abhorred African Americans and native American Indians. Loving people of other races and other people that are legitimately poor and oppressed and in dire straits is Biblical, but loving con artists that masquerade as “poor” and “homeless” is not. I have to admit that I have a very hard time doing the latter because of past experiences. Years ago, I remember seeing a little girl about age 7 with her little dog sitting with a sign that read, “Please help me!” The little girl was cuddled up with her dog in a blanket and when pedestrians saw her, they would put coins and dollar bills in her metal can.
I happened to be having lunch in the restaurant next to where she and her dog were situated. When I was done I walked outside and put a dollar bill and also a gospel tract ( not a chick tract) in her metal can. I browsed around that same street for about a good 10 to 15 minutes because of all the shops that sold exotic Asian souvenirs. Then suddenly I noticed that the little girl and her dog disappeared and noticed a much older woman that looked like her stand in the same spot where the little girl was earlier. I remember seeing her empty the money that was in the metal can and she pocketed the money, but the gospel tract that I noticed that she didn’t even bother looking through, was immediately thrown out in the street.
I said to myself, “Wait a minute!”. At that point it dawned on me that the older woman was the little girl’s mother because of the facial resemblance and it appeared that she was a con artist using her little daughter and dog to try to win people’s sympathy in order to get cash money. This type of chicanery is very common in my city. I have seen many so called “poor” or “homeless” persons carrying signs that read, “Please help, Gulf War Veteran” or “Need Money For Medicine” and other signs that are questionable. Are we as Christians to love people who are con artists who pretend to be what they are not?
———————————————————————————————–
The flawed doctrine works based salvation basically says that when “We’re good boys and girls and do our works, then we are saved”, but if not, “then we lose our salvation.” That is the essence of Arminian doctrine and all other false doctrines. Asinine!
Calvinism/LS teaches that if there is no “evidence” or “proof” of works to the end, then the person is “unsaved” and a “false professor.”
Arminianism teaches that if there is no “evidence” or “proof” of works to the end, OR if the person falls away into apostasy and grievous sin, then the person “loses” salvation and can’t get it back.
Calvinism and Arminianism are basically the same, but packaged a little differently. With Calvinism they have the 5 point “tulip” system and with Arminianism they have the 5 “articles of remonstrance” which contrasts with the “tulip”, but is still false doctrine.
I mentioned before that people of all nations and of all races are born and raised in a society that forever teaches that nothing in life is free, but that EVERYTHING must be earned and achieved by our works which is true when it comes to money, possessions, and academic degrees, BUT not true when it comes to God’s free gift of everlasting life. The mentality of earning/achieving has become so ingrained and so deep seated in the minds of many that the simple promise/simple truth of John 3:16 sounds too easy and too good to be true.
Notice what it says in John 10:33 – “We are not stoning you for any GOOD WORK,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
The Jews of Jesus time were also embracing Calvinism/LS in that they acknowledged “GOOD WORKS” without a doubt, but they denied and rejected the fact that it was Jesus who freely gives everlasting life to anyone who comes to Him by faith alone. Jesus was performing miracle after miracle and healing after healing in their midst which no doubt verified that He was indeed God, but they falsely accused Him of being a “mere” man which shows their faulty reasoning and logic. If Jesus was a “mere man”, like everyone else, how could he perform those miracles and healings?
The Pharisees and teachers of the Law accused Jesus of being “demon possessed” and performing exorcisms by the power of Satan in Matthew 12, and Mark 3. Then we have the Jews who accused Jesus of being a “mere man” in spite of His healings and miracles.
John 12:37 – 37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This shows a degree of HARDNESS of heart and unbelief that is utterly astounding.
Here is one from today:
Thank you lord he is dead. May he burn in Hell. Jesus said himself that many people that claim to be Christian are NOT. Scalia was a racist. God’s greatest commandment was to love god and your neighbor as yourself. This commandment alone will send countless republicans to Hell. They don’t love that illegal, that black person or that poor person as thyself.
My comment: Whoever wrote this seems to think that one is saved by his works. He seems to relish the thought of SOMEONE ELSE going to hell, based on having broken God’s commandments, even though God’s will is that all men be saved. The writer of this comment must think that he will get into heaven by virtue of having kept God’s laws perfectly.
The Bible says we are not saved by keeping God’s laws. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith in Christ.
MAN can only
CHANGE
HIS sin nature
through the ACCEPTANCE of Jesus Christ as Lord
MAKING him
the MOST IMPORTANT
in
YOUR LIFE
LIVING for him
INSTEAD of this world.
Then YOU will not WANT to do the sins
YOU use to DO (born again) .
Then YOU
HUNGER for God’s word of the bible.
It is a very dangerous thing to trust in a baptism, church or religion to save you. Jesus came into the world to save sinners and unless He is Lord in your heart, He will not be your Savior.
———————————–
That’s a pretty big list of things this commenter is doing to save him/her self.
Our works remain sinful before and after salvation. This person needs to understand that believing in Jesus Christ and finished work is the only way could ever have His righteousness/works needed to enter Heaven. So sad, this blinded one.
Here is one from today:
Man can only change his sin nature through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord making him the most important in your life. Living for him instead of this world.
Then you will not want to do the sins you use to do (born again) . Then you hunger for God’s word of the bible. It is a very dangerous thing to trust in a baptism, church or religion to save you. Jesus came into the world to save sinners and unless He is Lord in your heart, He will not be your Savior.
My comment: one is not born again by making Jesus the most important thing in his life, nor by living for Him instead of the world.
This commenter says it is dangerous to trust in religion, but then appears to do it.
Benchap, one sad quote says it all: Whatever it may cost you, it is still the bargain of your lifetime.
Pastor Wilcox needs for someone to explain the gospel to him.
There’s that word “true” again.
Another person who doesn’t understand that the narrow way is a person and that person is Christ. The way, truth, life. Another person who calls salvation a free gift, yet says it’ll cost you all to spend eternity with Him.
“The True Salvation Gospel
Christianity is not just about “accepting Jesus into your life”, having a “Christian” world-view, or being a good person, but laying down your life, by living and losing it entirely for Jesus Christ.
Matthew 7:13-14, 21
“You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it…”
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.”
The Holy Scriptures spells out the price you will pay for working out your salvation in fear and trembling. It may cost everything you have, everyone you love, and all you once hoped for.
Salvation is free for all those who, like the thief on the cross, die with Christ. Whatever it may cost you, it is still the bargain of your lifetime.
Matthew 13:45-46:
“The Kingdom of Heaven is like a merchant on the lookout for choice pearls. When he discovered a pearl of great value he sold everything he owned and bought it!”
Matthew 10:32-39:
“Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.
“Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword.
‘I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Your enemies will be right in your own household!’
“If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine.”
“If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine. If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it.”
After many years of following Him, through both dark valleys and over soaring mountain tops, I bear witness that Jesus has never left me cold, alone or afraid, but has faithfully guarded my heart and mind as it is stayed on Him. As the old hymn says:
“Every day with Jesus is sweeter than the day before.
Every day with Jesus, I love Him more and more;
Jesus saves and keeps me, and He’s the One I’m waiting for.
Every day with Jesus is sweeter than the day before.”
Please join me in prayer:
“Dear Jesus,
Please forgive me for being cool in my faith, wobbly in my walk and fearful in my heart. I want to follow you faithfully today and every day from this day forward.
You are first above all else, here and now, and forever and ever more. Please help me forgive others as you have forgiven me. I want to live and die in you.
In Jesus’ Name,
Amen
May God bless you and keep you and shine His light upon you as you follow Him.
Stephen Wilcox
Theological Foundations Ministries”
“How do you know you are saved and are a child of God? By loving Him. How do you show that you love Him? You keep His commands.”
Honestly in a state where I could cry. I’m just so over these people.
Jackie, I pray that John Piper will turn from the evil false gospel that he is preaching and that if he does not know Jesus as his Savior, that he will hear the gospel and understand, so that he may believe.
Piper really does not believe the Gospel. I pray he once did before accepting an accursed message. The grace of God is so great and unfathomable that those who – after trusting Christ as Savior – prefer not to see Him there WILL be there! They will surely regret thinking such a blasphemous thought, but Jesus also paid for that by His precious shed blood. Such people will praise Him into all of eternity for the grace and love He showed them when they deserved it least. Looks like Piper’s god doesn’t have a whole lot of grace to go around and is reserved only for those who treasure him above all else.
John Piper is a thief, attempting to enter the sheepfold through any other door other than Jesus Christ. He’s making others try to enter another way than the only Way in. Shame on him.
Jackie, I suppose if John Piper wants God above all things, all the time, perfectly, he should be in pretty good shape (sarcasm intended).
The Bible says that Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:6: For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Piper is saying that Christ died only for the godly. Piper is saying that he is saved by grace PLUS wanting God above all things.
Piper’s testimony, essentially, is “I don’t believe in Jesus.”
John Piper, a wicked wolf and minister of satan, needs to have his mouth stopped. Piper is responsible for the blood of countless men and he will be held accountable by Almighty God. What a frightening thought. Just stumbled across this quote of his:
“Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there. It’s a way of overcoming every obstacle to everlasting joy in God. If we don’t want God above all things, we have not been converted by the gospel.”
I see what you’re saying Curtis, but I don’t think we can determine one’s salvation based on whether or not they are fully clean of backdoor a Lordship.
Doing this is no different to fruit inspecting, only that its intellectual fruit inspecting.
Many Christians are not clear on the flesh/Spirit battle post salvation and many are easily bewitched into believing that because they’ve been saved now they’ll automatically act better because of Christ in them.
I agree that this is untrue and that it only leads to bondage as people start fruit inspecting themselves, putting themselves subtly under the law of sin and death for righteousness and causing themselves nothing but doubt and fear as they take their view off of the promises of God and onto themselves to see if they really have eternal life.
I can’t say if Sophia needs to be saved. She does need to repent of false teaching, though. If that is so she can be restored or saved, I know not.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Mrs Sophia is missing the tenses of salvation and missing the sin nature (that is not eradicated as believer souls 1 John 1:10 ) that we all have to deal with and be dead too as Believer people .
If mrs sophia or any other soul don’t see or exposed to the battle between the flesh and Spirit . First things First They NEED TO GET SAVED. and to Stop trying to read and understand scripture as an unsaved soul .
Ben & John, those passages are difficult for some to understand, that’s for sure.. But as one who is instructing others on what these mean, she has a lot to answer for. I found out yet another has been conversing with her. I do pray for her, but mostly that those she has private messaged (for who knows how long) will not be misled.
Benchap, I agree with you completely. Sophia is wrong.
I have prayed that Sophia will become clear on this.
These passages in Galatians (and the mirrored ones in Corinthians) are further affirmation of Jesus’ truth: you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God.
It isn’t saying: “believer” do you practice these things? Then you aren’t a believer/you still won’t enter the kingdom.
It is a reminder of what people make heaven and also a reminder to believers that they have two contrary natures. If they walk in one, they fulfill lusts of the flesh. If they choose to walk in another, this is the list of traits that follow.
Sophia is wrong. This is not a list given to discern who is really saved, nor to prove that works are automatic. The end of Galatians five COMMANDS believers to walk in the Spirit. “If Ye live in the Spirit walk Ye in Him”. It makes a clear distinction between living (being born again) and walking in the Spirit. It disproves this silly notion that it’s automatic.
But of course, you can’t teach a wilfully ignorant person this. It infringes upon self justification.
“Miss Sophia” is now using Galatians 5:19-21 to say these people that do these things are not Christians, and basing the fact that no Christian could murder on 1 John 3:15. That’s the trouble with lifting verses out without understanding or using context.
She told one that she believes in grace, however, ‘we take grace too far’ in stating one cannot show signs of being a believer, and I assume that meant her list of conviction of sins, love for things of God, love for His Word, love for others in the body, and not committing serious sins.
Yes, have your armor on Jackie, and having done all to STAND.
Amen, Preston!
Jackie, hold tight. The Enemy is attacking you through this man, and the others who as he is doing. The Enemy wants to get us to doubt the Lord’s promises and that fact that God never lies. The Enemy wants to be the one people think is telling them the truth and that it is God who lies. The Enemy is causing this trouble all throughout the church today. We know that salvation is not of works. God couldn’t have said it any simpler that He has. The Lord bless you for holding to the truth and contending for it! Keep at it, Sister!
Jackie,
he said – You are attempting to come into the sheep pen through a different gate
Jesus said, i am the door, BY ME if any man enter in……
trying to enter in through baptism and commitment is actually “another gate”.
Same thought as well . this gentleman somehow claims to know if a soul has the Holy Spirit or not .
The very fact that Jackie questions / reproves this gentleman on the Gospel is evidence of the Holy Spirit.
It is a very fare question to ask a soul if they know they have eternal life.
If a soul does not know they have eternal life there is no eternal life. The Holy Spirit gives us the assurance of eternal life through the Word of Truth . commitment for eternal life or for indwelling Holy is not biblical.
We are seeing who was on Paul’s heals
Jackie, so this person can now judge your soul?
And, he bases your absence of eternal life on the lack of commitment to Christ? If so, his commitment had better be perfect and unfailing.
Here’s another accusing me I’m deceived after I rebuked this man’s teaching of an accursed gospel. The religious lost know no bounds.
“You are deceived. Corinthians is written to Christians, Acts 2:38 was preached to non-Christians & three thousand repented, were baptized & received the Holy Spirit. Your gospel is a different gospel. A gospel of easy-believism & non-committal. You don’t have the Holy Spirit so therefore you don’t even belong to Jesus Christ Rom.8:9. You are attempting to come into the sheep pen through a different gate than the one that Jesus prescribed. You will pay for your rebellion.”
Curtis – I needed the laugh!
“if a pastor is preaching ” reflecting salvation ”
run forest run”
“Hungering for Truth of The Gospel here I am now on this blog .
saddle up and seat belts are optional”
Amen, and thanks for the words of wisdom and the laughter too.
Ben and Jackie, you did a very good job on that thread on Facebook. Sorry I missed the first part or I would have addressed them too. They had both quit the group before I got back from the trauma care. I was impressed with your firm and bold speech and use of the Scriptures. It’s hard to not get waylaid in those conversations when others get personal and do not used Scripture. Or take a side track like the gentleman you posted Ben, and throw out the foolish arguments that were never brought up or suggested even, i.e, easy prayerism, or faith in the wrong thing (i.e. Amway). These are not reasoned discussions using Scripture but again foolish arguments on their part. Praying for a seed to have been planted and for not only them, but for those they will mislead in their pride or lack of understanding.
John did a great job of answering the excerpts. Both people do not have an understanding that they are still enmeshed to a certain degree in Loadship, but I pray they will. No matter whether I like either person, their doctrine was wrong and needed brought into the light. God bless you both 🙂
Curtis, I am thankful that yiu are here!
The wages of sin is death romans 6:23
the payment for sin is not repenting of sin
the payment is made by dying for your sin
Jesus paid our sin debt
BUT BUT BUT the Gift Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ Our Lord
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
it is ironic pardox to me that God would use “repenting of sin ” to revive me. during a revival service at a IFCA church were guest pastor said need to “repent of sin ” for salvation I remember leaning front to another pastor and said “that’s not the gospel ” then fending off elders trying to get me saved again with1 john 1:9.
Hungering for Truth of The Gospel here I am now on this blog .
saddle up and seat belts our optional
I found this excerpt today, from a commenter going back and forth with atheists:
Either you pay for your sin or someone must step into your place and take your spot. Jesus Christ, the Son of God did that for us, for all who repent of their sins and believe in Him.
My comment: Believing that Jesus paid the full price for our sins is contradicted by believing that we must repent of our sins in order to receive eternal life. Turning from sins is a work, and we are saved by grace, apart from works.
Curtis, I have also noticed the prevalence of multi-level marketing in the LS community.
Benchap
Multi level marketing , Network Marketing or whatever spin they putting on it these days . Will split churches, family and friends quicker than handing out bottles of moonshine . I have seen it happen once a saved soul crosses over into carnality of the multi level marketing kind they are under a spell a virus that affects and infects souls around them . I have had elders and deacons come to my wife and I with MLM schemes. It is difficult to think towards a soul the same way once you get “the phone call” to be invited to a MLM meeting.
If you get an opportunity to talk to a soul under the MLM influence present the Clear Gospel of Grace to them , they will probably just agree with everything you say about the Gospel of Grace in hopes of winning you over to sign up. In their MLM thinking they try and hook souls into MLM to get them saved
3 positions for a soul
unsaved
Saved
Carnal
once saved we are either spiritual being filled with holy spirit or carnal .
being filled is to yield to holy spirit or not filled grieve .
yield to holy spirit in our thinking
1.know one’s position in christ
2. recon ,count up the cost or price paid by Jesus believing that what God’s word says to be Truth ( worship in spirit and Truth)
3. present ourselves (perpetually) romans 12 :1-2
4. Yield to Holy Spirit
if you are not being filled with the spirit and serving the lord the next response is to look to ourselves . We are either looking to the lord or looking at self
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
i’m 50 years old saved 30 years and now looking back over my saved life
the one thing missing is positional Truth . I myself did not study positional truth for myself and was exposed to weak to false teaching while listening to “christian radio ” while driving truck . also grew up in a very legalistic culture in my area. Amish , River Brethren , mennonite, united christian .
being exposed to weak to false teaching left me floundering because the emphasis is always on self and sin when all along sin is not the issue it is where is your focus ? Is it on Jesus and His finished work allowing the Holy Spirit to do the changing in our thinking ?
or is focus on self and self can not know self has eternal life as a free gift because of looking for evidence of salvation . While all along the Holy Spirit is given being born again that a soul is saved apart from works .
I also am living in the consequences of exposing my family and myself to 8 years at a IFCA church the pastor even taught and promoted scofield yet positional Truth and assurance of salvation was not proclaimed but “we want you here every time church doors are open” I sat in three years of scofield tuesday nite classes and towards the end of the 3 years the Pastor asked class “How are we saved? ” and not one person of about 20 souls knew we are saved by Grace . years later the church bitterly split over calvinism of the john macarthur kind.
*another person ask what is meant their lives do not reflect salvation*
when a soul starts going down this road
they are headed for failure and failure is the plan of God showing us where we are getting into the act . A saved soul who is a preacher or lay person asking these types of questions are either unsaved or carnal .
if a pastor is preaching ” reflecting salvation ”
run forest run
Ben, I have prayed for both you and Jackie to be gentle and wise in contending for the faith.
John, I agree on all accounts.
There has been so much drama over the past 24 hours because I stood against these teachings – and the one’s Jackie posted.
I’m so drained, lol.
Benchap, a pattern of poor daily dealings or a lack of charity are not reasons to think that a person is either saved or unsaved.
If the gospel has been clearly explained to a person, and they understand and believe it, they have eternal life. Their lifestyle has nothing to do with it. If it did, we would all be lost, because we all still sin.
Jackie, I don’t think a believer will always have a conviction of sin that differs from that of an unsaved person. I do think a believer who is in God’s word and yielded to the Holy Spirit will understand things that an unsaved person will not.
An unsaved person, for example, may read into scripture that he must do good works to be saved, or that one can lose salvation through sin. Such a person may know that Jesus is necessary for eternal life, but believe that He is not enough.
Bible knowledge and spiritual discernment are not the same thing.
For Christians, one who is not in God’s word will not understand as much scripture as one who is. Some Christians are more discerning than others. There are differences in interpretation of some passages by saved people. And, Christians who compromise and sit under false teaching may become confused.
Conversely, almost anyone – saved or not – should be able to tell that Benny Hinn is a fraud.
Now, regarding the quotes that you provided, they reflect the confusion of Lordship “salvation.” I will try to address them one by one:
Excerpt from quote: “I know. I have tried, without success to explain the Gospel to some and they insist they believe. But their lives and their understanding do not reflect salvation. So I persevere in PRAYER for them.”
My comment: If this person is having difficult explaining the gospel to someone, it is likely because he is confused about the gospel himself. His quote reveals that he thinks someone must exhibit a changed life to “reflect” salvation.
Excerpt from quote: “They remain solidly in a world of worldly understanding. No knowledge of Scripture, no preference for the things of God. No association with brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. Nothing but the claim of belief.”
My comment: As I said above, a Christian may have little knowledge of scripture for a number of reasons, including not being in God’s word, or sitting under false teaching.
One does not have to have a preference for the things of God, or association with brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus to prove he is saved. If he has heard the gospel clearly presented, understands it, and believes it, he need not have any of these other things present in his life to confirm that he is a Christian.
Excerpt from quote: “I ALWAYS knew I was doing wrong. I always had discernment, too. Isn’t that amazing? Even when steeped in sin, I recognized that Benny Hinn was a fraud.”
My comment: “I” “I” “I”! This person is substituting his perception of his experience for the word of God.
Excerpt from quote: “I discerned the false nearly always when I was living in sin.
What I didn’t discern was the false nature of Lordship. It was a wonderful discovery when I found out that I had NOT lost my salvation.”
My comment: The timing of this person discovering that he had not lost his salvation may have actually preceded, or coincided with him believing in Jesus as his Savior for the first time. If so, he may be looking in the rearview mirror for evidence that he had been saved all along. He will not find it. There is no evidence of salvation, other than Whom we are trusting for eternal life.
So much of churchianity puts the mistaken emphasis on life change for their Christian testimony. This can inadvertently turn the “Christian testimony” into a testimony of salvation by works.
From Clear Gospel Campaign:
When the “changed life” becomes the focus of a “conversion” testimony, it is not only a practice unknown to Scripture, it is in fact, counter productive in pointing men and women to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. It implies that salvation is allowing Jesus to change one’s life, with the consequence of observing a change. Ultimately, such “testimonies teache, by implication, the doctrines of Lordship salvation and justification by works, wherein justification is a process by which our lives are transformed. This is, by definition, the doctrine of Justification by works. In view of this, the modern “testimony” has become a cancer on the church. It not only deviates from the example given by Scripture, in truth, it is become an impediment to salvation, and a coruption of the gospel message.
Same person as my last post, not Jackie’s ****
Same guy:
“There are many who presume they are saved, because of an Amway meeting, that told them they could make money if they accept Jesus, too.
They think they are saved.. but trusted a falsehood.
So….when we see a pattern of poor daily dealings… OR a lack of charity: We havento wonder.
Lost person decieved into thinking they are saved… or Saved person needs to understand Romans 6?”
John (and anyone else who can answer), will a believer always have a conviction of sin and spiritual understanding that differs from the unsaved person? The following comments seem backdoor lordship:
“I know. I have tried, without success to explain the Gospel to some and they insist they believe. But their lives and their understanding do not reflect salvation. So I persevere in PRAYER for them.”
*another person ask what is meant their lives do not reflect salvation*
“They remain solidly in a world of worldly understanding. No knowledge of Scripture, no preference for the things of God. No association with brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. Nothing but the claim of belief.”
“I ALWAYS knew I was doing wrong. I always had discernment, too. Isn’t that amazing? Even when steeped in sin, I recognized that Benny Hinn was a fraud.”
“I discerned the false nearly always when I was living in sin.
What I didn’t discern was the false nature of Lordship. It was a wonderful discovery when I found out that I had NOT lost my salvation.”
According to this person, if someone lacks the conviction of sin, desire to be in fellowship, spiritual discernment, they prove they’re not saved. What’s frightening is this person has presented themselves as believing free-grace theology.
Benchap, this is a great example of someone trying to mix grace with works.
Excerpt from quote:
There is no works required – and yet THERE IS a fundemental, paradigm shift. We are no longer putting “Self” in front of “God”. Not talking about actions.. but … 》INTENTIONS《.
When we are born again our intent is to follow Him deliberately at the expense of self ambition.
My comment: A “paradigm shift” in which one intends to follow Jesus at the expense of self ambition is not a requirement for receiving the free gift of eternal life. Nor is an evaluation of our intentions for evidence of such a “paradigm shift” any kind of a basis for assurance, nor lack of assurance of salvation.
Excerpt from quote: Practically speaking – If the years go by… and a person acts like a child of the devil… I would tell them I think they missed something when they think they got saved. I would counsel them to MAKE SURE they grasp what Jesus did … and How they deserved wrath for sin.
My comment: Neither one’s own behavior, or that of someone else, should be evaluated for evidence of eternal life.
Excerpt from quote: HOWEVER —> We cannot know the difference between a lost person posing as a believer.. and a backslidden Christian in truth, soooo we must tread lightly enough that the Lord will forgive us, for being wrong. Either, that we accused a fellow heir of not being real… or that we gave confidence of salvation to a lost person. (And now.. they won’t recieve the gospel because they have been VACCINATED against the truth.)
My comment: We should not make any assumptions about whether or not someone has eternal life based on his behavior. Rather, we should try to assess whether or not someone understands the gospel clearly. If they do, great. If not, we should try to explain it to them from scripture.
“Miss Sophia is well versed in this area. She is no slouch, neither is she confused about eternal security.
Not to take sides, only to make clear that she isn’t pushing Lordship Salvation 1 tiny bit.
I also espouse the doctrine: “Eternal Security of the Believer” as best I know how.
◇◇◇◇◇◇
I see what Miss Sophia is speaking about, for sure! Easy Prayerism = fake Christian.
it usually sounds like this: ‘If you don’t wanna go to hell… repeat after me: Dear Jesus come into my heart.’
¡Viola! —> Now you are eternally secure because you said the prayer.
No way! The idea of repentance = believing is powerful.
We are to change our attitude about sin and believe that Jesus paid for it. There is no works required – and yet THERE IS a fundemental, paradigm shift. We are no longer putting “Self” in front of “God”. Not talking about actions.. but … 》INTENTIONS《.
When we are born again our intent is to follow Him deliberately at the expense of self ambition.
♧♧♧♧♧♧♧
Practically speaking – If the years go by… and a person acts like a child of the devil… I would tell them I think they missed something when they think they got saved. I would counsel them to MAKE SURE they grasp what Jesus did … and How they deserved wrath for sin.
HOWEVER —> We cannot know the difference between a lost person posing as a believer.. and a backslidden Christian in truth, soooo we must tread lightly enough that the Lord will forgive us, for being wrong. Either, that we accused a fellow heir of not being real… or that we gave confidence of salvation to a lost person. (And now.. they won’t recieve the gospel because they have been VACCINATED against the truth.)”
This fixation that many people seem to have with Roman 10:9-10 as being a must to be followed to be saved. It seems to have become like a button they push and then they are saved. And it seems to be the pet passage or go-to salvation passage recipe for those who either have a poor understanding what all salvation really is, or who have trouble explaining salvation to someone. Makes you wonder if anyone ever told them what all is said about grace and faith in the rest of Romans, particularly Romans 3 thru 5.
You will hear preachers throw Rom 10:9,10 out to their flocks without an explanation of what all is involved in Christ saving us. It’s popular with the “name it and claim it crowd” and Pentecostals, “Just profess and believe these two verses and you’ve made it, you’re saved! ”
Yes John, Romans 10:9,10 are not eternal salvation verses. Instead we are eternally saved by simply believing the gospel of our salvation. (1 Cor 15:1-11)
Here is an excerpt from a comment I read today:
Romans 10:9-10 are THE pivotal verses for understanding what it takes to saved [belief that God raised Jesus from the dead and a committment to Jesus as Lord of your life].
My comment: Romans 10:9-10 say nothing of making a commitment to Jesus as Lord of your life in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. This commenter has turned the free gift of eternal life into a false gospel of salvation through commitment to Jesus.
Phil, I continue to pray for those who seem to be confused on the differentiation between grace and works.
It looked like he tried to start some sort of forum for debate or questions about 4 years ago on this site. It doesn’t look like he got any posts or replies in all that time. Maybe people are starting to believe it is Christ alone who gets them to Heaven and not them getting themselves there.
I prefer to avoid people who are trying to “build bridges” to unite Calvinism/LS with grace.
Whether such person is hostile, or courteous,it is deception. Calvinism/LS are not compatible with grace.
Thanks for the heads up Phil
I went and read the doctrinal statement there , was going to post some of it here but the doctrinal statement is a mess like a incoherent drunkard especially under salvation , faith and repentance .
one of the first places we see the gospel under attack in scripture is when cain slew abel and when adam and eve covered up with fig leaves
Holly, I’m still praying for you and Adam. Happy Holidays!
Phil, I am aware of the guy to whom you are referring. The late Jack Weaver blocked him from commenting on here a long time ago.
Sin in the life of a believer has consequences, but none of them has to do with whether or not one has eternal life. Eternal life is received by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Fellow grace believing saints, I am sure you know we are under attack. Just today I ran across this site called “Truth Unchanging” by a Randy Seiver. It attacks this Oasis of Grace, Expreacherman. It is definitely LS/Calvinist. Lordship “salvation” in every respect. It does the usual adding to simple faith and grace and adds works and discipleship the gospel in 1 Cor 15 which we are to alone believe for eternal life. Seiver tries to say the LS and Calvinists have done an poor job of communicating the “true and complete” gospel for eternal life. According to Seiver, we are saved by grace alone, thru faith alone plus discipleship.
When I started reading his site, it sounded like bridge building, but it is nothing but pure LS, covenent, Calvinism. He talks out of both sides of his mouth saying salvation is sola fide, sola gracia, but in reality it is justification by works.
He tries to make a strawman out of this site Exp that we are antinomianists who are promoting a head belief to get to heaven and sin doesn’t matter once you are saved, the same type of accusations directed at Paul. At the root of the matter, he like other Calvinists, have a totally incorrect understanding of grace (which is God’s unmerited favor to sinners.)
But who knows? He may just change his mind. After all, we have other brothers and sisters on this Oasis of Grace here who came out of LS and Calvinism.
William, thanks for sharing those great passages!
The Bible is clear that eternal life is a free gift, but so many people try to corrupt and complicate the message.
Here’s 3 passages from God’s Word that utterly refutes “faith + “works” = salvation:
1) Luke 7:50 – Jesus said to the woman, “YOUR FAITH HAS SAVED YOU; GO IN PEACE.” Notice Jesus did NOT say to her, “Thy faith plus works has saved you.”
2) Luke 17:19 – Then he said to him, “Rise and go; YOUR FAITH HAS MADE YOU WELL.” This was the only leper out of the 10 who were healed by Jesus who came back and knelt before Him to praise and thank Him. This one leper was healed of leprosy and also eternally saved at that very moment.
3) Luke 18:42 – And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE.
The blind man BELIEVED that Jesus is the Messiah that gives eternal life in Luke 18:38. He was healed of his blindness and at the same time instantly and eternally saved right then and there in verse 42.
Now, where is the mention of WORKS from Jesus? NONE.
Sola Fide!
Amen Holly , Thank you for the reminder
The beauty of the Gospel is that is so wonderfully excludes a soul and is based entirely on the work of the Lord Jesus in what He has done received as a Gift . mankind desires to stick finger in the pudding of the pie .
upon receiving the gift of righteousness we have privilege to be under a higher law . The law of the Spirit to reign in appropriating the gift of righteousness to our souls. to be filled with Spirit spilling out to others.
reign = to be a king
King in what?
in appropriating the gift of righteousness.
How ?
yield to the Spirit .
How?
repeated responses to Grace by Faith the same way we are saved.
that’s to simple there’s got to be a vice grip or legalistic straight jacket I could put on and have someone ride on me . unfortunately there are false teachings abound that take advantage of a soul who would desire a vise grip or straight jacket. To work their way right into Hell.
Heaven is easy it’s a gift you got to work at going to Hell .
sinners go to heaven , good people go to Hell.
Whoa to them whom offences come
Rom 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Holly, I agree completely.
From time-to-time, we have someone come here who tries to find a bridge between one of these false religions (usually the false Calvinist/LS tenet of “perseverance of the saints”) and grace.
It is a complete waste of time.
There is no bridge between the false religion of Calvinism and the gospel of grace. They are completely incompatible. The only way to find a bridge between Calvinism and grace is to compromise the gospel.
Curtis, Phil, John – they really do have one obvious thing in common, works. Same as any other worldly religion, no matter how they package it as “Christian”, it still smells like a Pharisee.
Very true Preston, the other day on a FB group under our guidelines, a professing Christian woman came unglued when we said we supported Israel, the remnant, and the promises made to them for the land. We provided Scriptures. They’ve been there since our inception, but she must have just read them, she came unglued sadly.
“They see the cross as a jump start on their treadmill of personal righteousness.”
Yes , said well phil
1995 I started attending an IFCA church the church had a bitter split about 5 years ago over John MacArthurism . I no longer attend church there both sides are in doctrinal error on salvation .
Back in the 1990’s as a believer, I knew very little about LS and Calvinism, I made the mistake of starting to attend an IFCA Bible church. The regular adult Bible study teacher on Sundays was not there one Sunday and this church elder filled in to teach the class. His subject was James 2 and he started in on “you gotta have the works to be saved”. “John MacArthur tells all about this….”
He went on to say, “I know I have the works.”
He even kept the ribbon marker neatly placed in his pristine Bible. Maybe that meant he hadn’t contaminated his pristine grace and kept up his good works to get to heaven.
There was a lot more LS Calvinism that I discovered over time there. I thought there are differences in beliefs in any church and I would just stay with my grace only beliefs. But it didn’t work and I ended up leaving this church after a couple of years mostly in disgust over John MacArthurism. I knew very little about JMac when i started going to this church, but over time the more I heard about his LS teachings, the more red flags went up.
Curtis, you are right. They see the cross as a jump start on their treadmill of personal righteousness. And no matter what they say about the 5 solas, grace alone, faith alone, in Christ alone…..are not really alone to them. In reality, they believe in salvation by working your way to heaven.
as an repentant calvinist if you would of accused me of being a calvinist years ago while under the bewitching of LS. I would have denied being a calvinist saying leave calvin out of it not knowing I was following calvinist theology . That’s how twisted my calvinist LS world was then being under the works for salvation spell .
Just keep sharing Gospel Truth with those who oppose themselves.
Phil, you said:. No matter what the Calvinists and LS’s say about they they believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone, or sugar coat it In reality they really believe in justification and salvation by WORKS. They believe and promote another gospel that Paul warns about. (Gal 1:8,9)
My comment: Agree. They are often not even aware of it – particularly those who adhere to backdoor LS (aka “perseverance of the saints,” or “a true Christian will.”)
Calvinism and LS both point to one’s own righteousness – instead of Christ’s righteousness – for justification. The Bible teaches that believers in Christ are justified by Him.
Acts 13:39: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Romans 3:26:To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
2 Corinthians 5:21: For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Thanks john, Here is what Scripture says when grace occurs. “For while we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteousness man will one die; yet peradventure for good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Rom 5:6 -10).
“But God , who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved through faith. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of this grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.” (Eph 2:4-7)
I wonder if Calvinists ever study Galatians? They should because Paul is talking about them. No matter what the Calvinists and LS’s say about they they believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone, or sugar coat it In reality they really believe in justification and salvation by WORKS. They believe and promote another gospel that Paul warns about. (Gal 1:8,9)
Phil, very well said!
Ron Shea says the problem hinges on the redefinition of the word “grace”:
The lynchpin is not baptismal regeneration, lordship salvation, eternal security, or assurance. These are symptoms. The doctrine of “justification-by-works” crystalizes around a redefinition of the word “grace.” “Infused grace became the agent of transformation. The process of transformation was known as “justification.” To Augustine, God did not declare us righteous while we were yet sinners, he transformed us into righteousness…
This “transformation” hinged upon the infusion of a mystical substance called “grace.”
My comment: I would put it more succinctly. One either believes eternal life is a gift, or not.
The root of the problem, whether it’s LS, Calvinism, replacement theology, Reformed, Catholic…is they all have one thing in common. They use what I call Add-on theology. The co-mingle Law and grace. They will use what Christ taught under the Law to the Jews, like the requirements of the Sermon on the Mount, as the requirements to be saved. It’s not just believe the gospel, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as your salvation. They will also add you also have to do this or that. whether it’s from the Gospel accounts or other verses in the Bible.
Years ago I read C.I. Scofield’s ” Rightly Dividing the Word in Truth”.
In Chapter 6 of this Scofield makes some sound points of what was required under the Law of Moses, and what is for the Christian believer under grace alone.. Here are some points he makes:
“Law always has a place and work distinct and wholly diverse from that of grace. Law is God prohibiting and requiring; grace is God beseeching and bestowing. Law is a ministry of condemnation; grace of forgiveness. Law curses; grace redeems from that curse. Law kills; grace makes alive. Law shuts every mouth before God; grace opens every mouth to praise Him. Law puts a great and guilty distance between man and God; grace makes guilty man nigh unto God. Law says, “Hate thine enemy”, grace, “love your enemies. Law says, do and live, grace, believe and live. Law never had a missionary; Grace is to be preached to every creature. Law utterly condemns the best man; grace freely justifies the worst. Law is a system of probation; grace, of favor. Law stones an adulteress; grace says, “Neither do I condemn thee.” Under law the sheep dies for the shepherd; under grace the Shepherd dies for the sheep.
Everywhere the Scriptures present law and grace in sharply contrasted spheres. The mingling of them in much of the current teaching of the day spoils both, for the law is robbed of its terror and grace of this freeness.”
There is much more to this essay of Scofield. But I think he hit it on the head: The reason for the legalism– and the faith plus this or that to be saved, faith plus you must repent and forsake all your sins to be saved is the failure to rightly divide the word–to separate what is for the law and what is for the church–that is grace alone. Galatianism or added legal requirements to faith and grace was the false teaching Paul had to deal with, and, sadly what Scofield saw, and it is still what dominates what passes for the majority of Christian doctrine and beliefs today.
Galatianism/ Lordship Salvation/Calvinism/Catholicism/Puritanism/Arminianism/ Covenant theology/replacement theology have always been and still are Satan’s favorite and most successful theology.
Holly,
its even worse, replacement theology has “the church” persecuting the Jews.
I am all over you tube, the Jews are hated and blamed for everything by many…..its like Hitler on steroids.
Very telling Johninnc —
It is a classic sign of the end. The AC will set himself up as god in the midpoint of the tribulation, and those who know the Scriptures will flee. The children of wrath will always persecute the Jews and the church.
I was reading an article today, in which the Pope said Catholics should no longer attempt to convert Jews.
I agree that Catholics should not try to convert Jews to Catholicism. If a Christian is in the Roman Catholic Church, he should separate from it, and try to preach the gospel to any and everybody, including Jews.
Following is one is the more interesting comments to the article.
I’m a Catholic but the Roman Catholic Church is just getting crazier and crazier. I’ll always be a Christian but the church no longer speaks for me. The only thing Christ would care about is whether Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Catholic is the message of love and how you treat your fellow man. I doubt your personal beliefs would matter to him.
My comment: Christ is the only Savior. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. We are not saved by how we treat our fellow man. And, the Bible says that our personal beliefs do matter to Christ.
John 3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I like that Curtis, “if a soul desires to be bound in an area let it be to desire to properly articulate clearly God’s simple clear plan of salvation.”
Amen to that!
Maree– I’ve taken to checking out preachers first, (prove all things) you can put their name plus heresy, false, problems, errors, etc. and then you can look to see what the error may be before they subtly introduce heretical doctrine or bring us back under bondage. Looking at their gospel and statement of faith is a must for me. If it is not easily available, I know something is very wrong.
Hi Maree
“We believe that each believer must grow in grace….”
found under responsibility of believers dean ministries . yes it is Gods will that all believers grow in Grace by repeated mental responses to Grace by Faith but sadly not all believers grow and some our undergoing God’s chastening .
it is something I see over and over and over when a ministry has a doctrinal statement and or website Void of a clear plan of salvation 10 out of 10 have weak to false teaching concerning salvation and doctrine .
I would not waste my time with a ministry that is not clear on the Gospel and the 3 tenses of salvation (justification, sanctification,glorification) .
At the very least if a soul desires to be bound in an area let it be to desire to properly articulate clearly God’s simple clear plan of salvation
Maree, the GES guys got off the rails when they began teaching the cross-less gospel.
I would recommend that you not listen to anyone whose explanation of repentance makes you have doubts as to the scriptures on grace.
Thanks . Heard that Jesus died spiritually years ago didn’t get it so left it alone. It gets limiting on who to listen too. Good on some topics but not on others. I notice ges and other free grace teachers differ on repentance gets confusing to say the least. Yankee Arnold change of mind explains it well that it fits . But admit I still get doubt when I have listened to other people and have to kick out the doubt by going back over the scriptures on grace.
Maree, due to Robert Dean’s aberrant teaching in regard to the “spiritual death” of Christ, I cannot recommend him. Dean says that Christ paid for our sins while still physically alive.
For information on Robert Dean’s teaching on the “spiritual death” of Christ, please see the link below to an article written by Jim Floyd on this subject:
Repentance, in a salvation context, does not involve turning from sin, nor the willingness to turn from sin in any way. Eternal life cannot be both a free gift, and also be contingent on our good works. Doing works worthy of repentance is not automatic in the lives of believers, but it is God’s will that Christians do good works.
Hi I was wondering if any of you have listened to Robert dean ministries . I was fine listening to his teaching in Romans and John saying you simply beleive no repentance involved. But then listening to him in acts he pretty much said repentance means a change of mind attitude and to turn. And said in acts 26 that change your mind and turn to God and do works worthy of repentance to him he said it meant turn in the sense from the way you were living to bringing forth works . Strange that he says in John you only have to beleive for eternal life no repentance involved like from sin etc. and he teaches James right as well. Has he changed his stance as I noticed between his book of John and Romans before acts was 5 years . I thought he was free grace. As he was on ges site. Any one heard of him? Pity because I enjoyed the book of John he taught.
Benchap, I have prayed that you will have an opportunity to share the gospel with some of these people.
Yes, Catholicism is just part of the wide world of churchianity that does not teach the finished work of Christ.
This comment is under the heading “The Gospel according to a Catholic priest”.
He used 1 John like many others do! If we love each other, God is in us (in the context of: we are at that point a real Christian”
I couldn’t believe, remembering that I was at a Catholic wedding, how similar Catholic beliefs and teachings are to the Independant Baptist Church and obviously Calvinists and Arminians. It was insane.
They mix sanctification and salvation in nearly every sentence! Then we sacrificed Jesus a fresh and many ate and drank him. They ask for forgiveness of sins so that they can enter eternity, -and they do this weekly. Then they bless the people who are dead and in eternity (how in the world do they know?) and pray that they would be accepted to (on what basis????).
I wanted to scream and cry and in the end I just shook my head in disbelief and disappointment. These people aren’t an enemy (the leaders are), they are just deceived and need Christ!
Anyway, if anyone reads this comment within the next five hours, please pray that I would have wisdom to speak to these people. There will be many doors at the reception, I believe.
Ben and Curtis, so true. And Jackie said it perfectly. Oddly, when I have used that on them (1 Cor 2), they don’t recognize the words from the Scripture. It’s very sad actually, they know all the reformed writers, just don’t recognize the Word outside of their proof texts.
Amen Jackie
Proverbs 10 :19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.
Ben,
Heretics are wrong if they think their many “wise” words amount to anything. They refuse to use the Scriptures and allow them to speak. They forget that there are those who will not be wooed and wowed by their excellency of speech nor proliferation of words.
“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:1-4)
That’s the problem today. Too many non-discerning Christians today bank their knowledge of salvation on the wisdom of men, but not in the truth of the Gospel — the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16-17). Heretics do not esteem the knowledge of salvation with fear and trembling. Instead, they are cavalier and are ignorant of the stricter judgement teachers of the Word receive.
“In the multitude of words wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.” (Proverbs 10:19)
The soul is spiritually drunk
Yep, Holly.
What is it with heretics also being prolific writers?
This person evidently believes you can lose your salvation. Plus his comment here, “Re-repentance from dead works is an insult to Christ, because it implies that initially he did not fully heal us, and set us free from our sins.”
Dead works I do not believe has to do with sin at all, but trying to work for salvation. If it had to do with sin, then the author would have been saying that repentance from sin was the foundation of our faith. No, it is changing our thinking that anything we do can reconcile us to God. We must believe on Jesus Christ to be reconciled to the Father.
The person is a mixed bag of loadship and Arminianism.
Benchap, you are exactly right. Satan, this time through the person you have quoted, mixes truth with lies.
From website. Look at how insidious this post is (i’ve not direct quoted the entire article. I’ve done my best not to lose the context, as not to misquote the man who wrote the article. That said, let’s take a look.
“When we come to recognize and repent for our sins, Christ washes them away, making us new creatures in his name…..Paul refers to the sins of our old self as dead works, because these sins are forgiven, and no longer relevant to our lives…Re-repentance from dead works is an insult to Christ, because it implies that initially he did not fully heal us, and set us free from our sins.
Sounds ok, apart from the one phrase “repent for our sins”, right?
But wait, there’s more.
“Christ gives us eyes that see, so we can recognize our sins, and improve and work on ourselves. This striving to become more Christlike is a responsibility that we have as part of our relationship with him, and not a gift like salvation. In Christ, we are forgiven from our sins, but if we refuse to recognize and confess our own sins and failings, we have rendered ourselves unusable for his purpose and plan.”
And here’s the poison.
“Now this doesn’t mean that the second a Christian sins they are out of the book, and no longer a Christian. Our inevitable sins our washed clean if we believe in and follow Christ. What is does mean is that it’s not okay for us to sin, so we have to war against it in Christ, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6.1-2 KJV bible). So it is the willful and habitual sinner, living in sin, whom the wrath of God will be upon when Christ returns to reign (Ephesians 5.3-6).”
So, he calls salvation a gift. Yet one must repent from sins and follow Christ. If they do not, it appears the wrath of God will still be upon them. Thus, salvation is a work, not a gift, according to this man, but he either doesn’t see that he has transformed the gift into a reward, or he does and is very, very deceptive.
Thanks for posting William
William, I remember having read this a while back.
We know from scripture that some believers stop believing (Luke 8:13: They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.).
Based on MacArthur’s account, it is possible that seeing his friends become apostate became a temptation for him, and he has fallen away from faith in Christ, to a false gospel of Calvinism/Lordship “salvation.”
It is also possible that MacArthur was never a believer. It is hard to say. What we can say, is that he does not give a testimony of believing the gospel now.
The Apostle Paul, by contrast, continued to proclaim the gospel after his friend Demas left his ministry. Paul did not use the discouragement as an excuse to change the Gospel.
2 Timothy 4:10: For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
And, Paul never suggested that Demas was not a “true believer”.
Hi everyone,
I just got the following information on MacArthur’s past from Robert Wilkin’s book, “A Gospel of Doubt” – The Legacy of John MacArthur’s The Gospel According to Jesus. I thought the following excerpt by Dr.Wilkin on MacArthur is interesting:
” Although I am convinced that MacArthur preaches a false gospel of salvation by works, I am not thereby suggesting that he is unregenerate. I’ve heard him say that prior to his study of the Puritans in 1980 he believed in justification by simple faith apart from works. And I have met people who have been in his church for over twenty years who told me that only after he studied the Puritans in 1980 did his theology change. On that basis, I believe that MacArthur is regenerate and eternally secure.
He, like all of us, will have to answer at the Judgment Seat of Christ for anything he has taught which is in error ( James 3:1). Yet in the end, I expect to spend eternity with him as a brother in the Lord. MacArthur himself illustrates the beauty of once saved always saved. Even if someone ceases to believe in justification by faith alone apart from works, his later belief in works salvation cannot undo the new birth. But people who have never believed in justification by faith alone apart from works remain unregenerate, no matter how committed and seemingly obedient they are, for they have failed to do the will of the Father concerning His Son.”
My comment – Based on what I know, I believe MacArthur’s theology was deviant as far back as 1976 with his article entitled, “Not His bleeding, but His dying” where he claims that it was Christ’s death that atoned for sins, and not His shed blood. I believe MacArthur’s 3 very close friends in ministry who defected and became apostate in the faith were a contributing factor in his embracing Calvinism. MacArthur, after seeing his 3 friends become apostate said he, “had trouble filing all of that theologically”.
I believe his embracing Calvinism gave MacArthur a viable and logical explanation as to why his 3 closest friends became apostate. He also stated that it was not just only his 3 closest friends, but his observation of many other Christians in his church and other churches as well.
Hehe, Preston. That is s great comment. Humour and scripture. I like.
I thought the excerptor was about to say “and the only true church is the Catholic one, so join it”. Was surprised when he went on a more “evangelical” path. Another path that leads to destruction, despite many on it having great “perseverance” and “faith”.
LOL Preston
Sure is something how mankind’s religion would have a soul divide its self against itself using self as the standard ” truly believe ” does just that . nullifying the wonderful free Gift of Grace . Self gets to decide when the unatainable standard is achieved.
Preston, the chance of finding someone who has the right message regarding eternal life is like the chance of being struck by lightning.
But, that doesn’t stop people from offering opinions.
hmmmmmm?????
When someone believes the Gospel AND asks Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sins AND they truly repent of them, they receive the Holy Spirit
Eph 1:13 – In whom ye also TRUSTED, after that ye heard the word of truth, THE GOSPEL of your salvation: in whom also after that ye BELIEVED, ye were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT of promise,
hmmmmmm????? who to believe?
The excerpter’s comment is right in line with the theology of the RCC and, I might add, most evangelical churches as well.
Following is an excerpt from a comment responding to an article on the Pope’s denunciation of religious fundamentalism:
God has made it clear in His Word He is the only God, but the world refuses to let go of their false gods. The Lord says He has only one body or church, but the world refuses to be part of the one church and continue on in their many false counterfeit bodies or churches in this world. Ephesians 5:23 says that Christ “is the Savior of the body”, which is His one body, His one church. Christ is only going to save His one church, and not any of the counterfeit churches. Christ “loved the church and gave Himself for her” (Ephesians 5:25). When someone believes the Gospel and asks Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sins and they truly repent of them, they receive the Holy Spirit. Followers of Christ are the temple of God because the Holy Spirit dwells in us (Rom. 8:9, 8:11, 1 Cor.3:16, 6:19) 2 Cor.6:16 “For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”
My comment: It is not necessary to ask Jesus christ for forgiveness of one’s sins, nor to “truly repent of them” in order to receive the Holy Spirit.
Benchap, the statement “we gotta hang on” is really troublesome.
From Tom Cucuzza’s booklet “The Permanence of Salvation”:
If you are struggling to “hang on”, you do not understand that Biblical salvation is a gift.
I’ll add my conversation with someone.
Commenter: “Yes,if they drift away from belief,they never believed in the first place!
Now if we’re talking about drifting as in sinning,then we all dropped the ball that leads to life,but Christ made a fool proof way that says we gotta believe but let’s not fool ourselves to say we are still counted ,even though we arent,gotta hang on to the simple gospel that’s for all those that believe that,”Christ died for the entire worLds sins but without that Spirit that comes from only faith,we surely remain dead in sins and are NOT counted,so let’s be clear and not sway and say without faith,we remain spiritually dead,as hell!”
This person says that a believer who stops believing is not a believer, yet here he follows with “we gotta hang on”.
He also said:
“Once saved always saved but seriously wild branches,once the Spirit has beared witness to us,”Who changes back to dead after that?”
These are the types of people who the young sheep need to be most wary of and protected from, for they are close enough to the truth and use enough words like “grace” “eternal life” and “once saved always saved” to convince you they have the truth and corrupt the simplicity that is in Christ.
I found the following comment online tonight:
We don’t get to define what is and what is not sin…God does… turning a blind eye to a brother’s sin and calling it something other than what it is, is not loving that brother – it’s allowing them to remove them self from the Kingdom of God. No one who would sit by and watch their friend destroy themselves through substance abuse, adultery, criminal activity etc can be considered a friend… that’s not being judgmental – that’s being caring, loving, and providing guidance. Pointing out sinful behavior is no different… God doesn’t excuse sin – he forgives it, but only if we recognize it, confess it, and repent of it.
My comment: The writer of this comment may mean well, but he is distorting the gospel.
Turning a blind eye to a brother’s sin does not allow that person to remove himself from the Kingdom of God. If he is a brother in Christ, he can do nothing that will make him lose his salvation. If he is not a brother in Christ, he cannot become a brother in Christ by repenting of his sin.
The only way to receive eternal life is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Ephesians 2:8-9:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
God forgives all of our sin (past, present, and future) when we believe in Jesus as Savior.
Acts 10:43: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
The Bible is clear that whoever believes in Jesus as Savior has eternal life, and anyone who does not believe in Jesus as Savior does not have eternal life.
John 3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And readeth and desireth the latest systematic theology book. 🙂
Yes John, and persevereth to the very end as well.
Keith, wow!
Sproul’s version of John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him and goeth to church, and participateth in koinonia, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Here’s a tidbit from R.C. sproul on the necessity of attending church to make it to heaven:
“When God constituted the people of Israel, He organized them into a visible nation and placed upon them a sober and sacred obligation to be in corporate worship before Him. If a person is in Christ, he is called to participate in koinonia—the fellowship of other Christians and the worship of God according to the precepts of Christ,” Sproul writes.
“If a person knows all these things and persistently and willfully refuses to join in them, would that not raise serious questions about the reality of that person’s conversion?”
My comment: Perhaps Sproul and other Reformed “theologians” should add animal sacrifices and free will offerings to the test for whether one possesses eternal life since one must keep the whole law if he keeps any of it (James 2:10).
Here is an excerpt from a comment in which the writer seems to be trusting in both Jesus and himself:
Certainly, we all would be well advised to remember, we are sinners saved by grace, and come short of the Glory of God.
The whole point of being accepting of sinners and not the sin is the concept Jesus taught. He also taught to repent and turn away from sin. The pope believes exactly the same thing, repent and turn away from sin. Jesus Christ loves us in spite of our sin, we return our love by turning from sin and turning to Him. We are not saved by that turning away, but we are expressing the extent of our love and thankfulness for bringing us out of things that harm us and left un-repented lead us to eternal darkness, separated from the presence of an Almighty God, (hell) . The blood of Christ saves us, not ourselves, nor our goodness, nor the lack of sin, nor the extent of our sin, only the precious blood of a Savior.
My comment: This is the classic “grace sandwich.”
The writer correctly states that we are not saved by turning from sin. Then, he says that things (sins) left un-repented result in one going to hell. The second part of his comment negates the first. The last sentence affirms his first point, but negates the second.
Following is an excerpt of a comment I read tonight:
Doesn’t Christ, and not the pope justify sinners, and that always through faith. If this Franciscan friar repented of his sins and trusted in Christ, he was justified by faith like ever other saint, Period!! Our deeds are done for love of Christ and was the out working of salvation. Salvation puts the desire to obey and serve in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. No one who loves their sin will enter the kingdom of God regardless of what church he attends. Every true believer wants to obey God though we all still fall short.
My comment: The above commenter correctly states that Christ justifies sinners, through faith. However, he then says: If this Franciscan friar repented of his sins and trusted in Christ, he was justified by faith like ever other saint, Period!!
Which is it? Is he justified by faith, or is he justified by faith PLUS repenting of his sins? These are two different concepts. Justified by faith means justified by faith ALONE in Christ ALONE.
The commenter also said: No one who loves their sin will enter the kingdom of God regardless of what church he attends. Every true believer wants to obey God though we all still fall short.
Whether or not one loves his sin is not at issue in determining whether or not he has eternal life. Eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Not every believer wants to obey God, and those who do want to obey God don’t necessarily want to obey God all of the time. Wanting to obey God is not a requirement for eternal life, and is not a test of whether or not one has eternal life.
This commenter is trying to correct Catholic theology, which I agree is errant. However, the commenter has missed the forest for the trees. He seems to believe in good works (repenting of sin) to receive eternal life and good works (not loving sin, and wanting to obey God) as proof that one has received eternal life.
I spoke to two gentleman yesterday who had recently been ‘married’. Their opinion of street preachers and others oddly was correct. I had an opportunity to share the gospel with them, I don’t know what they received, however, I know the Lord loves them, and desires that they should be saved.
And here is another:
Mainline Christianity does not regard Mormonism as a denomination but rather consider it to be a cult due to its many beliefs that are totally different. Nice folks but wrong beliefs to call themselves Christian. We are not all Children of God, but rather enemies of God until we repent of our sins and accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior, then we become His children.
My comment: Repenting of sins is not a condition for receiving eternal life. To say it is changes the gospel of Jesus Christ to a false gospel of salvation by works.
Here is and excerpt from a comment I found tonight:
It might help to remember that a Christian is a Christian because they strive to hold to the principals that Christ taught regarding our duty to God and to one another and if they do not do so their Christianity is questionable.
My comment: A Christian is a Christian because he has believed in Christ as his Savior – not because he strives to hold to the principals that Christ taught regarding our duty to God and to one another.
These commenters not only judge someone’s salvation, they also never give the remedy should someone actually have not believed the gospel. But I am sadly afraid most don’t know the remedy…
I read an article today regarding the president of a Christian college who has run into some personal problems. I know nothing about the guy, or his theology. However, the following comments demonstrate a total lack of understanding of the giape by the commenters:
Here is one from someone calling himself “Repent or die in sin”:
“He has fallen to the practices of the world. Unless he repents, and cleans up his life, he is theirs.”
Here is another, which reads, in part:
“He is NOT a Christian. He is doing YOUR will. You celebrate immorality at every turn. Celebrate him for serving you.”
My comment: So these commenters have concluded that someone who sins is not a Christian? We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, not by behaving ourselves properly.
Here are a couple more interesting excerpts from comments to an internet article. They are from two different people. The second is in response to the first.
Excerpt from comment 1:
Josh will be lucky if god forgives him. he broke so many commandments, and he sinned so many times.
My comment: we are all fortunate that God is merciful, gracious, and propitious.
Yet, forgiveness of sins is not predicated on how many commandments we have broken, or think that we have not broken. The Bible says if we have broken one, we have broken them all (James 2:10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.)
The Bible says that whoever believes in Jesus as Savior is forgiven of all sins – past, present, and future.
Ephesians 1:7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Colossians 1:14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Excerpt from Comment 2 (rebuttal to comment 1):
It is clear that you have an incomplete understanding about the grace and mercy of God in your overly simplistic post. As far as Ive seen, the Duggars dont teach their children that God just keeps on forgiving when a believer shows no godly sorrow and truly repents. Gods grace and mercy is not a license to sin freely.
My comment: I agree that the first commenter has an incomplete understanding of the grace and mercy of God.
And yet, I sense that you (commenter 2), if you have a complete understanding of the grace and mercy of God, you did not explain it very well.
While grace is not a license to sin, those believers who continue to sin without showing godly sorrow and true repentance are never in danger of losing their eternal life. Nor is a casual, or even callous attitude toward sin a dependable signal that someone is not a believer in Christ.
There are consequences for sin in the life of a believer, but loss of eternal life is never one of them.
Or a possible Person C: I don’t practice my sin and I know I am saved because I have remorse and extreme regret for my sin when I do sin.
Holly, the quote was excerpted from a comment to an article on the internet.
The back-and-forth usually goes something like this:
Person A: “If you don’t stop this, that, or the other sin, you will not go to heaven.”
Person B: “You might be right if what I am doing is a sin. But, what I am doing is not really a sin.”
Neither person A, nor person B shows any signs of understanding the gospel. Both seem to have bought into a false gospel of works.
Yes, separation from God is because of sin (Isaiah 59:2), not because of sin without change. How much change, how does this person know? How long? How much is practicing, and may I ask, does he accidentally sin vs. willfully? A lot of people misunderstand Hebrews 10:26 and the willful sin. They also miss that the person hasn’t lost their salvation by the willful sin, just that the old sacrifice no longer remains.
Living for God once one has received eternal life, is what we should do. Living for God for salvation, following Him for salvation, being a disciple, none of these things is how we receive the free gift of eternal life.
I wish people could learn to understand simply, as a child, that the free gift is eternal life. It is free. Free to those who will believe upon Him without adding some work to it. Frightening. I pray whoever this was might read “eternal life for you” above.
Here is one from tonight:
you do know that as a christian that the only thing that can seperate you from god is sin without repentance(change)…
we are forgiven of committing sin but not willfully living as a sin. is it worth maby giving up living with god for eternity in heaven???
My comment: The writer of this comment is very confused. All sin was paid for by Christ. This person seems to think that some sin – up to a point – may be forgiven. But, if it is excessive, then no forgiveness and no heaven. We are not saved by avoiding excessive sin. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ.
Facebook is full of salvation by works preachers. Our friend Jackie shared one guy, who is a pastor.
His gospel was similar to Murray’s above, you must continue to believe, you must stay in the faith or you are out of the faith and you have to get back in the faith again to get your ‘position back’. The sadly amusing and ironic part was he used James 1:6-8 to show this is someone who has lost their salvation.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Keith – Well, got blocked or kicked off, not sure which 🙂 I will warn against them.
Keith – they like Paul Washer too. They said it was about ‘willful sin’ and ‘keeping the commandments’… Typical of Ray Comfort style lordship… I’m looking at it now.
Keith, wow – salvation by law keeping! These false teachers are everywhere.
Here’s the latest from an outfit called “Christian Prophecy”, which showed up on my Facebook newsfeed this morning:
“Do you call yourself a Christian but live life as you wish? Titus 1:15-16 says “Everything is clean to those who are clean, but nothing is clean to those who are corrupt and unbelieving. Indeed, their very way of thinking and their consciences have been corrupted. They claim to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, and disqualified to do anything good.” Don’t you realize that simply saying that you believe in Jesus Christ is not enough?!?!? You MUST believe in your heart and your belief is demonstrated with how you behave! If in your daily life you curse, lie, cheat, or any of the other things that God forbids, then you aren’t saved and your destiny is hell!!!”
Those are all good examples John. Words people use, and they just slip in a few, and they take one Scripture and they seem to forget Christ and Him crucified.
This one is a quite a bit more subtle in its error:
Niick danger? Really? What do you really know? Sounds like your opinions are like noses,everybody has one! That’s NOT knowledge! You deceive yourself! Why should the MOST HIGH expose any more knowledge to you nick? What makes you so “special”? ” without faith it is impossible to please god, for first you MUST believe that HE is and that HE is a rewarder of those who DILIGENTLY seek HIM”. From your post it would appear you have chosen to not follow HIS abovementioned injunction! Mormonism is a cult, but that don’t mean that GOD, the real GOD ain’t out there waiting for a “heartfelt” response from those who truly seek HIM! Wake up, before your window in time had elapsed!
My comment: What is a “heartfelt” response? This will invariably lead to the “heart faith” versus “intellectual assent” error of the Lordship “salvationists.”
This next point may be a little controversial:
I think the concept that the only people who are evangelized are being rewarded for their diligence seems to introduce an element of merit into it. How many people who are hearing the gospel for the first time have heard the “injunction” that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him?
Was the Apostle Paul diligently seeking HIm on the road to Damascus? Was the Phillipine jailor diligently seeking HIm? The thief on the cross?
Here is one from today:
The definition of ‘Christianity’ is “0ne who believes in Jesus and follows his teachings”. Unfortunately, most of those who profess to be Christians don’t even begin to follow what he said and did while he was alive. In Matthew 5 it state by Him that the had come and fulfilled the Laws of Moses; and proceed to give a new set of directions for His followers were to use: the ‘Beatitudes’. That means that the Jews were to still continue using and honoring the Ten Commandments, while all the Christians were live their lives using the Beatitudes to live by. How may so-called Christians even know what the ‘Beatitudes’ are; let alone live by them; or see them posted anywhere; like the Ten Commandments are.
My comment: Being a Christian means that one has believed in Jesus Christ as his Savior. Following Jesus’ teachings is something Christians should do, but doing so will not make someone a Christian, and failing to do so does not mean that someone isn’t a Christian.
See article linked below for more detail:
No Christians (including Jews who are believers) are under the law.
See attached article from Holly for more detail:
John — unreal. Believing in Him will not suffice…?” wow…May the Lord rebuke this person, and keep him from leading others astray.
As far as the Anglican and Episcopalians, there will be more that will head back to Rome …
And another:
The Anglican/Episcopalian conservatives converted back to the Catholic Church, now we have our nuns back.
It is now time to declare which side of the spiritual warfare you belong – God’s or satan’s before the final separation of wheat from the tares.
My comment: The RC and major Protestant denominations have much in common – namely, works for salvation.
Here is another one I found today:
As the Bible teaches; salvation is for those who DO THE WILL OF GOD. Believing in him in NOT suffice. That is a start but with that belief comes WORKS/ACTIONS to PROVE that we in fact do believe in him and are willing to do as he asks us to do in the scriptures.
My comment: False gospel of works for salvation. Believing in Him will not suffice? This commenter is calling God a liar.
John – how terribly sad that people haven’t been ‘brought up in the way they should go’, instead, they are stuck in the traditions and philosophies of men. I pray some are pulled from the fire.
Following are a couple of more “defenders of the faith” commenting on Kim Kardashian and Kanye West having their 21-month old child baptized:
Michael: The bishop is doing something against Christian doctrine, when their baby is baptized, he has to be baptized into the faith of both of his parents that were married in a officially sanctioned church through a canonically ordained priest. The baby is expected to live a Christian life according to the faith of his parents. I am not judging non-believers but one cannot baptize babies to Muslim parents that grow up in a Muslim household and become Muslim.
Jessica: Michael – Wrong. Baptize the child so the Holy Spirit may reside within that baby and may the light of the Creator heal the ignorance of the parents for their own salvation…
ezrider123: A Christian new born is usually christened within 3 to 4 months after birth. These 2 morons waited 21 months. What’s the reason for the long wait besides stupidity?
My comment: There is no such thing as a “Christian new born.” The Holy Spirit indwells all believers from the moment of belief. Water baptism has nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit.
Infant baptism is not biblical.
Alice, thank you for more thorough info on Zeller, and middletownbible because he speaks on MacArthur and the ‘dangers of reformed theology’, people think he is a good source to go to. I remember going there, and gleaning the Bible verses, but saw that he had part of TULIP missing, and wondered why. Jack filled me in on it.
Alice, I do not consider George Zeller or Middletown Bible Church to be doctrinally sound on the gospel. They are backdoor LS all the way. Pure poison.
We had an article about them, with lots of comments, a long time ago. It is called “The Truth LIES Somewhere in Between.” See below:
https://expreacherman.com/?s=The+truth+lies&submit=Search
Zeller has been in oft-featured columnist at “Grace Family Journal” (which has also featured Sourgeon), and has some of his articles linked to at least one other prominent “grace” site. All that does is confuse people looking for the truth.
Please do NOT trust Middletown Bible Church ministry, and think they are sound in doctrine. Here is what they say on their website regarding ‘Marks of a true believer”: (notice Not one of those marks asks: HAVE YOU TRUSTED IN CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOUR?)
A TRUE BELIEVER…….
1. ______ …believes the Word of God.
2. ______ …has a hunger for God’s Word.
3. ______ …prays to his Heavenly Father.
4. ______ …loves the brethren.
5. _______ …obeys the Lord (keeps His Word).
6. ______ …does not continue in sin but lives a righteous life.
7. ______ …does not enjoy living in sin.
8. ______ …performs good works.
9. ______ …confesses Christ before men
Here is another confused excerpt from a professing Christian:
“Just because a person say they are one thing doesn’t make it so. What makes it so is following the rules of the creed. In my case the Commandments to the best of my ability. I am not perfect and never claimed to be, but I strive to be and am forgiven of my shortcomings by the grace of God. A person must resist such temptation any other way is an apostate and a anomination to the creed.”
Preston – I have no doubt since you use the Word of God, you’ll ‘win’ big in one of the name calling events. In fact, next week I hope to publish your one article, just have had a lot going on, so will be interesting to see what might transpire there.
oh man. always the bridesmaid….
well, at least I am going to heaven when I die.
Johninnc — poor deluded blinded person….
“Unless YOU change your life around, than it’s going to be You and God. ”
This poor guy needs to understand Repentance from dead works.
I have also been called a ‘Biblidolator’. And mocked for ‘loving the Bible more than God’. I told the one guy that I loved and treasured His Word, it gave me knowledge of the One who bought me with His precious blood.
But outside of all jest, I am finding people do not know or even recognize the Word if you do not use the reference. And they do not love it. They love to heap up teachers. They do not love His Word….
Preston, Preston, Preston lol!
Yes, I am afraid I have you beat on this one too (roflol)….
One day on Facebook, I had a post going (on my own page), I had made a Bible verse, and was adding other Bible verses along the same vein in separate comments. After a dozen verses (I felt like I was worshipping God and at the same time being revived and strengthened by His Word), a guy came in to chastise by yes calling me a Bible thumper, but continuing with, “Is that all you ever do is quote Bible verses, can’t you speak in normal English”?
I can still remember this guy’s name (bless Doug Lord). I don’t quite remember, but he asked me a question which had a perfectly suitable answer in the Word (and by the way, this guy said he was a believer), so I said, you know, I have to tell you that this verse has the perfect answer for you and then shared. He did the argggggghhhhhh thing, and left, and went to his own page, and posted a post that another friend came in and asked him, “You can’t possibly be serious are you?”
His post after our exchange?
“If all Christ ever did was speak the Word of God to His disciples all the time, they would have been bored to tears…
lol…
Btw, I DID get called a Baptist the other day lol!!!!
HOLLY; HOLLY; HOLLY
I KNOW I got you beat. The name I got called by a “religious” Pharisee.
Ready?!
He called me “a bible thumper”.
Yep, He told me I was too much of a “bible thumper” and I needed to get AWAY from the bible.
Ever heard that one yet??? 🙂
Preston, I agree completely. I edited this a little, but you are still spot on.
John,
I apologize, I had to chuckle. BUT then realized it is very sad.
he said – There is no get out of hell FREE card
maybe he should add Romans 5 after he is done with 2,3 and 4.
I found another example of false works for salvation theology this morning. Please see below:
“God is no respecter of persons and he will not discriminate between the immorality of the people in this World. You will all be sent to the same place so don’t be jealous and feel left out. You will be down there right with your master the Devil for eternity in Hell. There is no get out of hell free card. Unless you change your life around, than it’s going to be You and God. And God cannot lose. It doesn’t matter how many people disagree with Him. They will lose and God will be victorious. Have fun while you can.”
My comment: One cannot earn eternal life by changing his life around. Eternal life is the gift of God through Jesus Chtist our Lord. This writer understands that there is a God to whom we’re accountable. But, he doesn’t show any understanding of how one can have eternal life. He would do well to read Romans 2. Then, he might see that the answer lies not in pointing his finger at the people in Romans 1, but in relying on Christ’s righteousness (Romans 3 and 4).
Susannah welcome and thank you for posting
I thank God to hear you and your husband caught yourselves out of a snare by the Holy Spirit working in you.
“LS terribly negates what Jesus alone has done for me,”
Amen that is the snare of works for salvation.
another thought for negate is the “double bind ”
“It is a “double-bind” message to combine grace with merit. This message asks a person to do two conflicting things. By definition, grace is God’s unmerited favor, a free gift (eternal life—Rom 6:23). This means that one cannot earn grace because this, would contradict the definition. Thus, when a minister or priest asks someone to do something for the grace of God, he has just presented the individual with an impossible choice. If the individual chooses grace, he cannot do anything for it. Yet, the minister has told him that he must do something. The person cannot win!”
To see the Apostle Paul’s words about this “double-bind” message read Rom 4:1-25.”
Susannah, welcome and thanks for your comment.
We have had some very inventive comments from Lordship “salvation” proponents. One went so far as to guarantee that the thief on the cross would have performed a lifetime of good works, had he been given the opportunity.
And while all Christians are born again, and therefore have become new creatures, the extent to which we are transformed in this lifetime depends on the extent to which we cooperate.
I have just recently become aware of the LS controversy among believers. I spent approximately seven years in the “family-integrated” church (two different ones), a movement started by Doug Phillips of Vision Forum fame. These churches were steeped in reformed theology, and I was always aware of a slight uneasiness within my spirit while attending. The LS doctrine was not preached outright, but rather subtly implied. My husband and I were finally able to put our finger on why we always felt that something wasn’t right – was outside of what we believed and understood about salvation according to God’s word. It is faith alone in Jesus Christ and His finished work.
As I’ve pondered this often divisive argument within the church, I’ve been reminded of the thief on the cross next to Jesus. He had mere minutes before death claimed him when he recognized and acknowledged Jesus as God. “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Luke 23:42
And Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43. This man, by his own admission, was being punished justly, and he had no chance to visibly show through the way he lived (repentance, commitment, obedience, and perseverance) that he had changed. This brief yet powerful exchange has always spoken to me of how God can change someone’s eternal destination even as he/she draws their final breath. At any rate, I can’t imagine how the LS camp would respond to this, especially since the words of assurance came from Jesus Himself. But I’m sure they would devise some sort of rebuttal to defend their stance.
For me, I believe LS terribly negates what Jesus alone has done for me, and therefore is an offense to God. My salvation is in Christ alone. My love for Him causes me to want to obey Him and grow daily in a way that I take on His likeness, the result of being a new creation in Him.
Sorry I wasn’t around the last couple of days, but very happy when you do not allow that stuff to go on Johninnc.
They act in a fashion similar to the one you described with Murray, sneak in, throw in a couple things here and there, and when you recognize it, go full blown. Happy not to see all that garbage here.
myself i am pursauded that just as a soul can trust Jesus as their personal saviour and live as a disobeident child of God …a soul can also get caught in doctrinal error and not be obeidient to the word of God. disobiedence is disobidence.
there is the peace WITH God and the peace OF God. we get peace with God when we trust Jesus as saviour . beliving His death burial and resurection paid my sin debt passed present and future.
look what happened to Paul in the book of galations he planted that church only to come back to find them bewitched into another gospel.
i caused myself all kinds of heart aeke and vexation of soul from following my own ways reading scripture following a system of thought. the knowledge of good and evil really has us all messed up need to fix our eyes on Jesus. mankind wants to desperatly drag along the old sinfull nature up to the cross to have it fixed to have some part in salvation like adam and evebwith their fig leaf religion . God says no Jesus paid the price now stop it and be freee to be who you are in Christ Jesus a new creation .
curtis
John/Mary,
I think John is correct. 2 Thes is talking about unbelievers. However, I would take it a step further.
It is talking about unbelievers during the 70th week of Daniel (or last 7 years). The churhc wuold be raptured before this.
example – verses 3 and 4 (also see verse 1 for more context)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This is taking about the Abomination of Desolation the both Daniel and Jesus spoke about, which is the “antichrist” sitting in the temple of God proclaiming to be God.
I have not found any place in the new testament that says God blinds his children. satan can blind us. we can even decieve ourselves (1 John). false prophets (fasle brethren) can come in and deceive us. IF it si there, i have not found it yet.
I see this passage have a similarity to the Pharoh and the Exodus of Israel from Egyspt. AFTER 5 signs/plagues, Pharoh would not let them go. THEN God “hardened his heart”.
There will be sooooooo many fulfilled prophesies in the final 7 years (not to mention the rapture of the church), and people STILL wont believe (like pharoh) that God will send them a strong delusion that they WILL believe the lie (that through sign s and wonders, this “son of perdition, is God).
– pretty much God saying, I have shown you ALL of this in my word and you still dont believe???? Fine, have it your way.
my two cents.
Mary, I think that verse refers to people who have never been believers.
I’m interested to read what others have to say.
Hi Guys,
Just wanting to throw another in the mix, been thinking on this one on the weekend. 2 Thess 2.10 because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Can this ever refer to christians, if they are
saved then continued in false doctrine, like word of faith. Does god give christians over, if they have been continually warned and they don’t listen, if they are in error. Surely there has to be a consequence in following the false teachers,
I myself was caught up in false teaching, but looking back i was under a lordship salvation (an accursed gospel)
iIguess what I am asking is, does god give christians over to a delusion if they are disobedient in helping satan build his kingdom, as i know of many who i think are saved, but are very ecumenical,they don’t think catholic church is not christian, is it that satan is working thru them due to their ignorance and lack of understanding.
Sorry hope i have made myself clear.
ALice, I agree.
I think there are FAR MORE real believers in false gospels than false believers in the real gospel.
Matthew 7:13-14:
[13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Tom Cucuzza’s message above is excellent: There is only ONE Gospel that saves and it is the Gospel of Grace. (Things that are different are NOT the same…!!
I am frustrated that people are NOT seeing the difference between:
1. Salvation by Grace Alone.
2. Salvation by Grace + works.
For example one pastor I spoke to on the phone last week when I asked him how he defined REPENTANCE, he said it means to ‘turn from your sin and turn to God’. But when I explained the clear Gospel of Pure Grace (that Jesus did it ALL and we simply trust in His finished work on the cross to get saved) he said: yes I agree with you…!! NO, we don’t agree…!! He just told me a few minutes ago that we need to turn from sin and turn to God for salvation, and if we don’t persevere in faith and give evidence of works/fruit in life, then we are not saved and now he says he agrees with me…??? The difference is huge… but I can’t get them to see…! Oh Lord, open their eyes….!!
john john, just a couple of thoughts on your comments.
I agree that believers are being transformed by a renewing of their minds (Romans 12:2), and there is a lot of junk in there.
I grew up believing that Christ died for our sins and was raised from the dead. But, I didn’t really understand what “for our sins” meant until just over four years ago. Up until then, I thought I had to do my part by repenting of sins, and committing and so on. My sputtering attempts to do that usually coincided with me worrying about not being saved. And, they always failed after pretty short intervals. Then I would forget about it for a while, try to think of other things and so on. The light really didn’t come on for me – and I wasn’t saved – until I realized that eternal life was a gift, and not a trade.
So, I think there might be others out there who aren’t really saved, because they’ve never heard, or understood, the gospel message. That has been the driving force behind my concern for the clarity of the gospel.
To your point, john john, Tom Cuczza said the following in his sermon entitled “It’s All of Christ”:
Minutes 3:35-3:52
We must protect the gospel. Now, what is the gospel? It’s the good news that God sent His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to die on the cross to pay for all of our sins and that He came back from the dead to prove it was done, and that all who would simply put their faith in Christ and Christ alone receive eternal life.
Minutes 4:07-4:35
Now, if there is only one plan of salvation, which the Bible says that is true, if there is only one gospel, which the Bible says that is true, then the truth needs to be protected.
We cannot give false teachers a place – and you’ll notice what he said – not even for an hour. Now, that’s not being mean-spirited, that’s just standing our ground. That’s having the courage to say: “Excuse me, not here. That message is not welcome here.”
Minutes 4:49-5:34
There are those who are saved and yet are confused about this issue. And they are -many times – just because they haven’t learned, they haven’t been taught better – they are saying things that aren’t true, but it hasn’t occurred to them that what they are saying is not true. What do we do with them? We teach them. We kindly teach them. We take them alongside and we show them the way of God more perfectly. Alright? There is that ministry. Every man is a ministry. We need to see that.
However, there are those, though, who are fixed on preaching error and teaching error. And when they are approached with the truth – and we try to make that clear – they say: “That’s not true! I don’t believe that. I believe you’re the one who’s teaching falsehood.”
PS. I didn’t mean to imply that confusion “comes from the Spirit” but that Satan can only attempt to confuse in this way those whom the Spirit has enlightened.
Hey John, I see “works righteousness” as the default human position. Since everyone’s conversion isn’t “ideal”, with a clear-cut denouement concerning “dead works”, the world/flesh/devil triumvirate OF COURSE aim their flaming arrows at our natural weakness towards DOING.
“And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”—Galatians 3:12
This, IMO, is “the way that seems right to a man” because it SOUNDS right. Sinning every hour on the hour does not, contrary to the caricature promoted by LS’ers.
Satan is AGAINST CHRIST (antichrist), so he will always offer a slander against the goodness of God in Christ, against the steadfastness of His love.
Concerning whether conversion in this or that case is “real”, I think of all those who were “added” to the early church quite simply. Really, what all did they KNOW (yet)? If we believe our salvation rests on Christ ALONE, we ought not shortchange His supernatural ability to perfect those who come to him in faith which, though “little”, IS saving faith! He doesn’t give up on us in this fight vs. principalities and powers, as we eventually come to KNOW—against all feeling—that “by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (Eph. 2:8-10)
Everyone here is struggling with these issues because they are SAVED! Unregenerate people don’t want to “walk worthy” before God or want to do GOOD works vs dead ones. They don’t sit around and wonder if they’re saved. That comes from the Spirit. Our MINDS are what have to be renewed and there is a lot of works junk in there, ha!
Just my thoughts at the moment.
Alice, I have found that a lot of people can’t really tell the difference. Maybe they are saved, and have heard the false gospel substitutes and add-ons for so long that they think they are part of the gospel.
But, I never assume that. I try to provide a clear gospel presentation. If someone objects to it, and persists in his objections, then I am concerned that he has never understood or believed the gospel.
Johninnc, you hti the nail on the head when you said: ‘Many people will try to explain away the differences between salvation by grace and salvation by grace plus works, as if they are really the same thing. In essence, they are trying to “harmonize” the two, so that we can all “get along.”
People in churches think that since we agree on the core doctrines of the Bible such as the Deity of Christ, His virgin birth, miracles, prophecies, His substitutionary death on the cross for our sins, redemption through His blood, His bodily resurrection from the dead,, salvation by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone, we are all on the SAME page and therefore nothing to quibble over or divide/separate/avoid and get ‘tied up in knots’ over this issue.
What they fail to realise is that by subtle addition of ‘works’ to GRACE either by insisting that one has to ‘turn from sin/ repent of sin’ to be saved, (front loading the Gospel) or that we need ‘evidence/ proof of works’ that we are truly saved, (back-loading) they are under an accursed gospel which can NOT save and so it is a difference of heaven and hell. In order to get this understanding we need to be teachable and be willing to be corrected by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. But what I am finding is that most people are comfortable in their false doctrine thinking that they are saved and so not willing to be corrected.
Hey Preston!
You wrote: “however, my first thought is, “what about the prodigal son”?
In others words, if a child of God “falls away” God will never accept the fellowship with His Child until he physically dies?
not sure I can “jump on that bandwagon yet”. 🙂
I do agree we CAN be out of fellowship with God (1 john), but we “confess’ our sins to restore it.”
Beholdason:
– Good point! I guess the question now on my mind is, “Did the prodigal son reject/deny His Father? or simply choose to go down the sin path?” What is noteworthy is that the prodigal son DID change his mind as he remembered what he had “back home”. He was hungry and he knew where to find the goods.
– Considering Heb 6… I think those who fall away are beyond the prodigal son’s “state” of “falling away”. In other words, I don’t think the Prodigal son “fell away” but simply went into carnal/lukewarm mode. He still knew His Father was His Father. I think the Hebrews 6 people are those who actually deny Christ (as he’s need to be re-crucified). They reject the “first principles” and don’t progress at all.
I’ve lived for several years like this… sinning in ways I won’t mention and yet all the while still believed God was and is. I even saw friends come to Christ in the midst of my carnality! (God be praised). But I came back eventually and bowed the knee. Now I’m pretty much perfect. (just kidding – haha)
To be honest, I’m not entirely on “that bandwagon yet either” haha but it’s what I “see” (ooo) in the text and am unsure if it’s correct.
Gotta look more into this apostasy thing and falling away.
Are there different states of having your conscience seared?
I also think of the Romans hedonists whom god “gave up” to do those things we won’t mention.
Yikes!
I found another great example of false doctrine touching on salvation – salvation by keeping the 10 commandments:
…As you can see very few people put God 1st in there daily activities and practice the 10 commandments with humility and love. mankind has lost its way today because Satan has stepped into influence their lives in greater fashion people forget Pray and depend on Jesus for help in every present moment. People today do not confess there sins and thing it’s ok. Satin loves that approach that man is taking because millions of souls go to hell every day because of man’s human reasoning. No human reasoning can compromise Gods Ten Commandments. this is the truth with out the Ten Commandments you cannot get to heaven without them. All praise be to Jesus Christ the Son of God the savior of the world who died for our sins and is in love with you every second you heart beats
it appears to be English in the first, second and third person.
I Believe
thou believest
he believeth
it depends on in which “person” the passage is being presented.
1st person,
Acts 8:37b – I believe that Jesus is the Son of God
2nd person
“i will raise him up the last day……believist thou this”
” thou believist there is one God….
3rd person
” he that believeth in me hath…..
” he that believeth in me, though he were dead……
its just grammer of the day.
Excellent job Johninc in rightly dividing the word of truth and addressing Murray’s apparent false position theologically. A thank you also for protecting the sheep who participate in this blog from the damaging and confusing doctrine of calvinism.
With my heart I pray that Murray sincerely acknowledges the source of his false doctrine and trusts in Christ alone to save him – if he hasn’t already. If he has, then that he will abandon and flee from the perverted tenants he holds to and embrace the truth of Grace so clearly held out in Scripture when one studies the WHOLE Bible, and not just select passages which have been gleaned and applied inappropriately.
Preston, I sent you the comment by e-mail.
Murray did not come here to learn. He came here to preach false doctrine.
I would have a ton of questions for him.
number 1 on the list…..
how does he explain 2 Timothy 2 which illustrates people who had their faith “overthrown” but were still sealed?
Holly, Murray responded to your comment, but I chose not to post his reply.
He is continuing to assert, with increasing insistence, that perseverance in belief and faith are essential for salvation, and that salvation is conditional upon those things.
This is a perfect example of how people pushing false doctrine operate.
Step 1. He asked a seemingly innocuous question on January 20, which we answered.
Step 2. He read our responses.
Step 3. He lay low for six weeks.
Step 4. He made a very long-winded post with some truth, but with his heretical denial of eternal security imbedded deeply within.
Step 5. He read our responses.
Step 6. He came back with a full-throated proclamation of his heretical doctrine.
beholdason,
you could very well be correct. I don’t claim omniscience.
assuming I understood your comment correctly,
if one is not “rooted” well and they fall away, God might “blind” them so to speak—talking about “fellowship” and they can never be “renewed” again.
however, my first thought is, “what about the prodigal son”?
in others words, if a child of God “falls away” God will never accept the fellowship with His Child until he physically dies?
not sure I can “jump on that bandwagon yet”. 🙂
I do agree we CAN be out of fellowship with God (1 john), but we “confess’ our sins to restore it.
If others would like to jump in and attempt to convince me, I would not mind at all. a year or two ago, I had not decided whether the “lukewarm” church was saved or out of fellowship. I could see both. one day John typed one simple sentence, “Can an unbeliever be “lukewarm”? From that I determined, yep, they were out of fellowship.
BTW, I love how you went back a chapter and forward a bit to look at context.
Alice, hang in there!
Many people will try to explain away the differences between salvation by grace and salvation by grace plus works, as if they are really the same thing. In essence, they are trying to “harmonize” the two, so that we can all “get along.”
The most obvious way to “harmonize” salvation by grace with salvation by grace plus works is through “back-door” Lordship “salvation.” This is the notion that good works will automatically accompany faith in Christ.
We must beware of this heresy. If we concede that good works WILL accompany faith in Christ, we are conceding that good works MUST accompany faith in Christ. Then, we are back to salvation by works.
Murray – I agree with John’s response to you. Right now I’m reminded of Jesus many encouragements that His disciples continue to believe (have faith) because He knew what they would be facing. But it wasn’t not speaking for them to continue to believe that they might have eternal life. They already were pronounced clean by Jesus so it couldn’t have been that. Believing the gospel, at that moment we are indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit, baptized into the body.
It seems you believe somehow that faith and repentance are gifts (you said it was a work of God), which is what Calvinism teaches in total inability. That the person needs ‘gifted’ with faith and repentance, by being pre-regenerated before they can believe. Is this where you are coming from?
Johninnc and Holly, thank you for your encouraging comments, it is SO good to have fellowship with like-minded believers. Today I received another email from the same woman telling me that while she appreciates my passion & zeal for the truth, contending for the faith and being a Berean etc but I ‘shouldn’t tie myself up in knots no matter how well-intended’..!! She apologised for being curt with me earlier but I don’t think she understands Lordship Salvation no matter how clearly I explained. Anyway, I will leave her in God’s hands.
ALICE — I am familiar with you of the “spiritual assault by other ‘Christians’”. Trouble is as we know, some may not know Him. So I try to keep Col 4:5-6 in mind as I believe you do, and try to share the gospel, or get them to share what the gospel is. Some refuse, or give an accursed gospel. It still gives us an opportunity to share with them.
Some are sheep that protect the wolves and nip and baaaa about ‘chewing the meat and spitting out the bones’, or ‘nobody’s perfect’, but we know the most important thing is the gospel, so we do our best to continue to warn, and win souls to Christ with the good news. There are many out there with puffed up and feigned words, deceitfully mishandling His Word, preaching another gospel. They are the deceivers, and there are many deceived too. They will be judged in the end if they do not believe themselves. Frightening.
God bless your efforts, and Satan always seems to kick up a bigger fuss when we are sharing the clear gospel. Praying for the deceived sheep to come to their senses and get out of bondage.
Some other verses which refer to “falling away”. Interesting when you consider these verses in light of the “falling away” of the believers in Hebrews.
Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.
(consider Luke 8:6)
And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
2 Peter 3:17
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being LED AWAY with the error of the wicked, FALL from your own stedfastness.
Those who fall away in Luke 8:6 + 13 seem to do so because they have no root and lack moisture. (figure that one out haha). Those in 2 Peter 3:17 are led away with the error of the wicked and cease from being stedfast.
Hey Preston, thanks for sharing that.
I kept waking up last night with Hebrews 6 in my head so I just had to spend about an hour this morning seriously looking at it.
I copied and pasted Hebrews 5:12-6:20 onto a word doc and typed some notes underneath every few passages as I felt so led.
What I noticed is that from verse 5:12-6:3 it’s talking about the lack of spiritual growth of the believers. They were babes when really they should have been teachers.
When we get to 6:4-6 which says:
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame”.
Considering the verses preceding 6:4-6, I am left to wonder whether what it is saying is something a little like this (my understanding of 5:12-6:8:
If you babes in the word do not move on from the “first principles of the oracles of God”… and the “laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment which God permitting we will do… IF you should fall away (due to not maturing), it is impossible for you to repent again (change your mind about God) because it puts Christ back on the cross again. The works that you do will be burned.
(ref:- 1 Cor 3:10-15 “15: If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.)
I don’t really see that what it is saying that it is impossible to renew someone again unto a change of mind because it is unnecessary (due to Christ having only needed to die ONCE for all).
But rather, I am currently thinking that this passage is saying that it is impossible for a person who “falls away” (the person being a former believer – eternally secure who has not matured and moved on from the first principles listed)…
it is not possible for this apostate Christian to “be renewed AGAIN unto a change of mind” in the sense that they have rejected the truth and fallen away from the faith (so to speak). In other words, they no longer walk with the Lord, they’re carnal… they look, act and speak like an unbeliever.
Their “end is to be burned” (not them, but their works). It is impossible for these people to come back to a right relationship with the Lord (renewed again unto a change of mind – repentance).
That’s what I’m seeing from the text at the moment.
Can you see how I come to this conclusion?
– Not sure if it’s right, but that’s what I’m seeing it as at the moment.
Pray for me please 🙂
Murray, it’s great to hear from you again. There is a lot of truth in your comment, particularly that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ.
However, there are a couple of things that you said, on which we have different positions.
You said: As soon as you truly believed, God immediately justified you for salvation and eternal life. This means that you can now know that by continuing to believe in our Lord Jesus for your salvation and eternal life, you will escape the fire of hell and eternal damnation.
My comment: A believer does not have to continue to believe in our Lord Jesus in order to be saved. Once someone has believed, he is eternally secure, even if his faith does not endure.
You may recall that we discussed this in some comments under another thread. You will find those comments linked below:
You said: John 6:44. Acts 5:31 and 11:18 tells us that repentance is something God gives…it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God’s longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).
My comment: God draws all men to Him, and desires that all men be saved. God grants repentance to gentiles (Acts 11:18) in the sense that eternal life is available to them the same way that it is to the Jews – through faith in Christ.
God does give lost people the ability to repent. However, individual repentance unto salvation is not granted by God. It is the responsibility of the creature, not his Creator.
Acts 17:30: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
God would not command people to do something that He does for them.
Alice, it is great that you are discussing the clear gospel with people from these various groups. As you have noted, the most stringent objections will come from those most vested in some other approach to salvation.
beholdason,
Heb 6 is actually an eternal security passage.
Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame (Heb 6:4-6)
Hebrews 6:4-6 is one of the passages that are used by “religion” to say one can lose their salvation. This is a load of dung! Yes, Paul used the word dung too in the bible. We have clearly shown that eternal security is prevalent in the scriptures (see previous chapter). We will use 2 Timothy to show that even if a believer loses his faith, they are still saved. Really? Yes really!!!! Then we will look at Hebrews 6:4-6.
The bible says once one believes/trusts the gospel; they are sealed. This is important in relating to 2 Timothy as the writer uses the word “seal” in that passage…
– Eph 1:13 – In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise
– Eph 4:30 – And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption
– 2 Cor 1:21-22 – Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;22 Who HATH ALSO SEALED US, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts
LETS GO TO 2 TIMOTHY – note – Timothy is a letter written from Paul to Timothy so the “WE” is referring to BELIEVERS.
– 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Jesus CANT deny himself. We have seen, Jesus promised not to lose one and that nothing will pluck us out of His hand. Again, Jesus CANT deny himself. He can’t make promises He doesn’t intend to keep. Let us keep reading.
– 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
– 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and OVERTHROW the FAITH of some.
We see that some had their faith overthrown. This MEANS that they believed. Let’s go to the next verse. The first word is NEVERTHELESS. This is the key. The word “nevertheless” means “in spite of”. So some had their faith overthrown…NEVERTHELESS….or…..”in spite of this”….
– 19 NEVERTHELESS the foundation of God standeth sure, having THIS SEAL, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity
Did you catch it? They were STILL SEALED despite their faith being overthrown.
– read next verses to explain “depart from iniquity”. YES a believer should depart from iniquity. One reason is to build rewards of gold and silver and NOT wood hay and stubble; which will be burned at the Judgment Seat of Christ. (1 Cor 3:10-15).
– Heb 11:6 – But WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him
2 Timothy SUMMARY – these people whose faith were overthrown were producing NOTHING. Their faith was gone!!! They had no more faith THUS it is impossible to please God (produce). Were they saved? YES – NEVERTHELESS, having THIS SEAL, the Lord knoweth them that are HIS
The bible CANNOT contradict itself. It can’t say that if a person loses faith they are still sealed; THEN say they lost their salvation in another.
So let’s go back to Hebrews 6:4-6. It reads…
-4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The first point that needs to be made is this; this passage is talking about saved people. See the phrases used such as: tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted the word of God. These are definitely saved people. So we have saved people who, IF they were to “fall away”, it is impossible to renew them AGAIN unto repentance.
STOP for just a second. Where in this passage does it read one lost their salvation? Where’s the example of someone whose faith was overthrown (2 Tim gave an example)? You won’t find it. Why? It is not there. People ASSUME they lost their salvation. All it reads is “it is impossible to renew them AGAIN”. This is a true statement. How? It is quite simple actually. You can’t renew AGAIN something that is still renewed; or, as 2 Timothy reads “still sealed”. Heb 6:4-6 is actually an eternal security passage. IF Jesus sacrifice was NOT good enough the first time, he would have to come back down here and get crucified again (or afresh). This is what would put Him to an open shame. Look at these other passages in Hebrews.
-Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had BY HIMSELF purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high
-Heb 12:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for ALL.
-Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered ONE SACRIFICE for sins FOREVER, sat down on the right hand of God;
ONE sacrifice, ONE time for ALL the sins of the world. Hebrews 6 doesn’t seem so scary anymore does it! Even IF your faith is overthrown you are still sealed. It is IMPOSSIBLE to renew you AGAIN. Jesus promised to never lose you and that nothing will be plucked out of His hand or the Fathers hand. Again, it is impossible for a child of God to be renewed AGAIN. Once you are His child, you are always His child.
We run up against many folk (including my pastor) that say one must repent of sin to be saved – we have written a tract to try to explain biblical repentance
IS REPENTANCE NESSARY FOR SALVATION?
Yes it is if you have the correct Biblical definition of the word “repentance.” In the Holy Bible, the word repentance comes from the Greek word “metanois,” which simply means “to change your mind.”
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Mark 16:15. Did Jesus tell any of His disciples to go out into all the world and get people to repent of sin as a prerequisite for salvation? No. He was very clear when He spoke of the “only one” requirement for salvation. He that believeth… shall be saved…believeth not…damned. Salvation is predicated on our belief in Christ, not on repentance.
A lot of well-meaning people emphasise that a person needs to repent of sin in order to be saved. This is not what the Bible teaches. Repenting of sin in order to get saved is a self-based works related salvation and is not what the Bible teaches.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9. The part of this verse that is most neglected to be applied to our salvation is; “and that not of yourselves.” Our Lord Jesus Christ is our One and only Saviour; we cannot be saved by our own personal repentance of sin or of our own good deeds or works.
To have to repent of our sin in order to be saved is to try to obtain salvation by our own self-works-based repentance, and that is to try to gain salvation by our own works. Ephesians tells us, “Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Our Lord Jesus Christ saved us at the cross long before we ever repented. We only truly repent of sin after we truly believe; and this is only done in response to what our Lord Jesus has already done for us.
However, our Lord Jesus stated that there is a work that we need to do in order to be saved, and this work is “not of ourselves, nor of our own works.” This work also indirectly includes the correct definition of the word “repentance,” and that is “to change our mind.”
In the following verses we find a multitude of people following Jesus who were very much works orientated when it came to their understanding of how to please God. They questioned our Lord Jesus as to what they had to do in the way of works to be accepted by God. “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:29. Believe on Him who God hath sent.
The work of God that saves us and is not of ourselves, nor of our own works, “is to believe on Him whom He hath sent.” This is both the gift of God and the work of God, and indirectly includes the fact that we have to “change our mind” to be able to accept what our Lord Jesus is saying concerning the kind of work that we need to do to in order to be saved.
People must first experience a “change of mind” (i.e. “repent”) to even consider God’s truth. It is in accepting this fact that enables us to “believe on Him who He hath sent.”
“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” Acts 10:43 Jesus said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” John 6:4
As soon as you truly believed, God immediately justified you for salvation and eternal life. This means that you can now know that by continuing to believe in our Lord Jesus for your salvation and eternal life, you will escape the fire of hell and eternal damnation.
“That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:15-16
“And by him (our Lord Jesus) all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the Law of Moses.” Acts 13:39
So, there is a work that must be done in order to be saved, and this work is not our own work, it is the work of God, and because it is the work of God, it is not of ourselves so that we cannot boast about it. It is also not of our own works because it is the gift of God to grant repentance unto us.
“When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.” Acts 11:18
No one can repent and come to God unless God draws us. Jesus said; “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” John 6:44. Acts 5:31 and 11:18 tells us that repentance is something God gives…it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God’s longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).
So we get saved by doing the work of God for our salvation, which is neither of ourselves nor of our own works, and that is “by believing on Him who He hath sent.”
My friend and I have been contacting pastors from various denominations including Baptist, Pentacostal, Church of Christ, Anglican, Brethren, Presbyterian etc by phone in our ‘city of churches’ Adelaide, South Australia and asking them how they defined ‘repentance’ and where they stood on the Gospel and salvation. Do they believe eternal security /’OSAS’ once saved always saved or can a believer lose their salvation if they fall into grievous sin or turn their back to God? We got varied replies ranging from ‘turning from your sins’ as a requirement for salvation and others telling us that believers can lose salvation if they don’t persevere in faith and obedience. Some from Baptist denomination told us that if a person claiming to be a Christian doesn’t give ‘evidence’ in their works, it is possible that person was never saved.
Apart from one or two out of the 20+ pastors we have spoken to so far, nearly all of them gave LS answers. Some got quite angry and told me that I am looking for a ‘theological debate’..!!
Not wanting to lose a God-given opportunity, we gave them the clear, simple Gospel of Grace of Christ as we finished the phone calls and prayed that the Lord will open their eyes to the truth of His Word.
One woman from our former church sent me a ‘stinging’ email back to me today after I wrote to her that those who believe/teach that you can lose your salvation are to some degree trusting in their ‘works’ for salvation and not Christ alone and that it is an accursed mixture of ‘grace+works’ .She got quite upset with me as I said that this is a serious matter of heaven/hell, eternal life/death and we need to get it right before we leave this earth. It is a lonely road for those of us who understand the issues which is why I keep coming back to Expreacherman to get some much needed encouragement after getting spiritually assaulted by other ‘Christians’.
Beholdason, I know what you mean, and you are not being greedy.
Jack and I had talked about trying to do something comprehensive, but agreed that there is no limit to passages that works salvationists would point to that they think contradict the clear doctrines of grace, eternal security, or assurance.
If it’s not in in the KJV, they will go to different translations. If it’s not in scripture, they’ll go outside of scripture. We have even had one guy guarantee that the thief on the cross would have done a lifetime of good works, had he been afforded the opportunity.
Also, there are various interpretations of certain passages within the grace community.
Tom Cucuzza did a comprehensive study of Hebrews within the last year or two. I believe it is still archived.
Something I’m ‘working through’ at the moment is the difficult verses in relation to ‘falling away’ and eternal security.
I often find great messages about clear passages but they often won’t touch on the difficult passages which often get misinterpreted to justify loss of salvation or false profession type teaching.
In my mind it’s great if the clear passages are presented, and then followed up by ‘commonly misinterpreted passages’ relating to the same topic. So it’s all together and there’s no room left to say, “Well, what about this verse or that passage” etc.
If you know what I mean. I’m listening to Ralph Arnold now on Heb 6. I’m just wondering if anyone has done a sermon or if there’s a post on these issues where all the verses are covered in one hit?
(maybe I’m just being a bit greedy here) – hehe
Beholdason, I’m open to suggestions for topics.
However, I like to stick with very clear verses on the gospel.
Welcome Bob Gilbert
for me personally what i have done is seek and study the Truth of the Gospel and Proclaim it.
A properly articulated Gospel presentation is the one we should all strive for. It is of the utmost importance . There is a wealth of information here on expreacherman. one of the most clear , calm presentations of the gospel is done by Tom Cucuzza
Holly/John, It’s becoming more and more clear to me how “Believing” is simply not enough for many people.
Just gotta do more. (is the mentality).
I’ve been reading through 1 John and Hebrews 6 this morning. I’m wondering if there’s a possibility of proposing topics (relating to salvation/LS issues) based on difficult texts we’re trying to figure out?
I’ve found the comments of many believers so helpful, in addition to the actual posts themselves.
Whilst the difficult verses link on this website is helpful, it is limited in the sense that it actually leaves me with further questions that I cannot have answered without using the internet (hardly reliable) to find answers.
Any suggestions?
Bob Gilbert – by the way, I just want you to know, I sincerely want to know what you are asking, because I sure think it’s an important subject and want to share some ideas with you, and you certainly seem willing.
John John, that gentle giant is 6’4″ and weights over 300 lbs. My husband was not that tall nor large, but big and tall for a Mexican. My dear brother-in-law is special, and the Lord knows it. He has loved coming to our house for years, and it has been difficult, especially when I was caring for my husband, but I am so glad I did. Because he tried to fight with me a little on the Catholicism, and I told him to hush and hear me for a change because he knew I loved him, and I had never forced him to do anything, so just hear me out. And I taught him the Word. For days we talked about the Word, and I’d read it to him, explain it, and then contrast it at times to the Catholic teachings, then reinforce it with the Word. I had a dental surgery to go too, and it was a three hour one. No one to drive me, and the drive up was over an hour. So, we had a nice long talk up there. And I wasn’t put under, but afterwards just to collect myself, I got him a haircut (he loves to go for those kinds of things), then took him over to subway to get him a sandwich. Then we got in the car, and that’s when he told me that he wanted to be a new man. I still weep thinking of it, since my husband will be so happy to see him when he joins him some day. His sister is the only sibling left, his mom and dad are gone, so she caregives for him to a certain extent, he is capable of most anything, except needs driven to doctors, or medicines ordered. He and sister did not get along at that time, and when he went back, I got him an audio Bible. (He can’t read). I told him to listen to every day, and to pray for his sister when he felt she was being unkind or grumpy. (He’d put it a little more strongly). He’d complain to me a lot, and I told him, he’d do better if he told the Lord his problems rather than another person, and to keep telling Him. They get along great to this day. He came to know the Lord 2 years after his brother, my husband went to be with the Lord. My father-in-law I believe placed his trust in the Lord before he died, my parents went over to speak with him (he was in California). My mother-in-law, I am not sure, but she stayed with us a month (was going into early dementia) and she slept with my daughters who assailed her nightly 🙂 So, I pray so. She didn’t like me much, but I loved her, and sure hope she believed on Him.
May we never stop praying, and may God be glorified in it.
BeholdaSon – I didn’t cry, I was swinging on my swingset alone, knowing that Jesus loved me, that He died for my sin, and I believed. The thing was when I went to my mom, she led me in a prayer and for many years I kept re-praying the prayer thinking I hadn’t been sincere enough, and thinking I hadn’t been sorry enough etc.
I was so happy to really have someone make it to clear me, what I had known before tradition corrupted my thinking through the subtilty of the enemy. That all I had to do was believe and I was saved. What good news, so many lost years, much my fault, but I am angered in so many ways at those lost years, if I had but known.
Holly, beautiful story about your “gentle giant” believing the Gospel!
and you know what I love most about this story Holly?
The fact that this six foot giant sobbed as he thanked the Lord. I was exactly the same.
No Paul Washer style preaching required. Some of us have a good cry, some of us don’t.
John and BeholdaSon, I always include an offer for prayer because it’s talking to God and non-believers generally have some skewed idea on that too. I will use that opportunity to clarify points they may have heard in gospel presentations before, i.e., now that you have believed, you have been given eternal life freely. It’s not by anything you can do, although some people will wrongly tell you things such as turning from sins, or going to a certain church, or promising to do better, etc., but this is not the case. He asks that we believe on Him, so now you can know you have eternal life.
I’ll say, some tell you to pray to ask Jesus into your heart, but when you believe, the Lord has come to live in your heart by your faith, it’s a result of you believing (Rom 8:9; Eph 3:17), and you are baptized and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. You will never lose your salvation.
I talk to them about the importance of spending time with Him and what it’s like to talk to Him. And then I’ll ask them if they’d like me to pray for them, or if they’d like to just thank Him for His free gift.
I tell them usually to start in the gospel of John and go from there. Those are just some ideas. My brother-in-law when I led him to the Lord, we were driving down the road after 3 days of in-depth speaking to him regarding the errors of the RC church according to the Word of God. He is mentally handicapped, and has a simple but intuitive mind, a gentle giant. He understood and told me he wanted to be a new man. As I was driving, I told him again the clear gospel and made sure he understood what Jesus had done on his behalf. After I questioned him to see if he believed the gospel and he said he did, I asked if he would like to talk to the Lord about it. Since he has only known and rehearsed repetitive prayers, I asked if he wanted to pray some things, which I can’t remember, but mostly thanking God for what He had done, for saving Him, for giving Him eternal life. This six foot four giant began to sob, and I began to weep and I missed my turn completely as we were miles pass the turn off before I recognized it. I suppose that’s not the optimum place to be crying and weeping, (I prayed with my eyes open don’t worry!) 🙂
Anyways, Bobby Ray, my ‘little’ brother is one of the saints now, and not one of the RC saints ❤
Love in Christ to you both. Nite.
Bob, I’m a little confused. Your biker friend sees some works of inviting Jesus into your heart and life, and confessing with the mouth, and yet you are still using the tract, just skipping over those things?
Just trying to clarify what you said here. I had some thoughts, but not sure if you mean the ministry adds some of these things, or the tract itself does. If the tract, can’t you use one of Yankees? If the ministry, can’t you go to them and speak to them about the absolute importance of the clarity of the gospel?
Until I know what you mean I don’t want to say too much, but I have some thoughts. In Christ, Holly
Here is another great internet comment:
Only Pope Francis can answer that question. Only he knows what HE believes. Now if you ask me, my humble opinion is that if you lead a good life in a truly judeo-christian framework, yes they should go to heaven. BUT… I’m not Pope Francis, I am not a bishop, I’m not even a priest. Just a plain ole guy aspiring to be a good guy doing good.
My comment: This was in response to the question: “Does the Pope believe that Baptists can also go to heaven?” Leading a “good life” has no bearing on whether or not someone goes to heaven.
My gospel presentation just got simpler. 🙂
Ta John.
God is so good.
beholdason, I agree completely about the prayer. I see no need to ceremonialize believing.
I don’t see it with Cornelius, I don’t see it with Martha, I don’t see it with the woman at the well.
Where in the Bible does it say we must ‘pray’, alongside believing?
Do we really need to encourage people to do this extra step?
I ask sincerely.
Believing is all that is required. Why add steps?
I recently wrote to a ministry leader as follows (I have removed some identifiers, for now):
Dear Sir:
I have a question, but must first introduce myself. I am a veteran of some 23 [evangelistic] events. I was saved when a fifteen year old, at an informal Bible study at someone’s house, where the gospel was made clear to me, in January, 1970.
Since then, I have graduated from a Bible college with a BA, taught for a dozen or more years in Christian schools, seven years in a Bible college, pastored a church for two and a half years, and am currently again teaching and serving as registrar in a Bible college.
In my local church I serve as an adult Sunday school teacher, and was recently elected to the controlling board (here they are called “Elders”.)
My wife is also a veteran of some ten [evangelistic] events. We last December brought another college staff member, his wife, and three college students, to the Jacksonville, FL [weekend evangelistic event]. All had a blessed time. This past weekend, I brought again another staff member, and the same three students, to the [one-day evangelistic event] in Perry GA. Again, the Lord blessed.
Sunday I was chatting with a biker in our church, and remarked that he and I would have to go to a[n evangelistic] ministry event together. He replied, “[That ministry]? I won’t go with them. I looked up their doctrine – they teach works for salvation.”
I just reviewed (again) the ministry doctrinal statement – and am assured that “works for salvation” is not the official position if the [evangelistic] ministry. So I had to think about where my friend got this idea.
I have come to the conclusion that it is in the invitation portion of the [ministry] gospel tract.
It is my habit, when using that tract, to go to the inside fold after the fourth Bible verse (John 14:6), because in my view, Revelation 3:20 has nothing to do with lost people – Jesus is seeking fellowship with church folks who have shut him out (the training video for the gospel tract acknowledges this, also); and Romans 10:9 adds the confusing requirement of “confessing with your mouth”, to the otherwise perfectly clear “believe” of John 3:16.
Once inside, I am happy to go through the first three questions and answers, because they are a reiteration of the meat of the gospel just presented.
But I skip right to the prayer, from there – because the text below those questions adds in several apparently ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS on the person who is coming to the Savior: “Do you want to invite Jesus into your heart and life right now?” That phrase may be well-meant – but it is NOT Biblical. It is just NOT in the Bible!
So I go to the prayer – and teach through it – and right after “I believe you rose from the dead”, I stop, and say, “According to John 3:16 – let’s look back there – WHAT JUST HAPPENED?”
If they are with me, as they usually are, they will acknowledge – the one praying SHALL NOT PERISH, BUT HAS ETERNAL LIFE. Then I usually say, the rest of the things in this prayer are good, good to pray, after you know you have eternal life. But do you want to pray this with me right now? And I lead them through the first half of the prayer.
The other phrases in the prayer: “Receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior; TURN FROM MY WAY, FOLLOW AND trust Him as my LORD and Savior…make me a new person.” “Make me the person you want me to be…” — these phrases are a confusing mixture of some elements of salvation (believe, receive the Savior), and some elements of LIVING THE CHRISTIAN LIFE.
I believe it is confusing and foolish to ask a lost person to sign up for any of the elements of the Christian life, before he has believed in the Savior. I believe it is VITAL that we not put any burden upon the lost man, who is near salvation, more than what Jesus put on the lost person (John 1:12; John 3:16; John 6:47). I am with Paul (Eph. 2:8,9; Titus 3:5), and John (1 John 5:13).
I hope you know that it is with a humble spirit that I put this before you. I do not want to criticize. I want to be able to invite and involve more new [workers] in the [evangelistic] ministry. But when my friend expressed the view,”They teach works for salvation”, I thought I should first think it through, and then try to present it to you.
If you wish, I invite your consideration, and conversation on this matter. I think it is of the highest importance.
Respectfully,
Bob Gilbert”
beholdason, that’s a great reference.
If one really believes eternal life is the gift of God, then there is absolutely no way that “turning from sins” or “repenting of sines” could be required in order to receive eternal life. Otherwise, eternal life would no longer be a gift.
beholdason, that’s a great reference.
If one really believes eternal life is the gift of God, then there is absolutely no way that “turning from sins” or “repenting of sines” could be required in order to receive eternal life. Otherwise, eternal life would no longer be a gift.
Interesting post.
I just finished going through the 55 verses on Repent,Repentance and Repented with much help from Ron Shea’s old clear gospel website.
Link: http://old.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=27
I found it very helpful to go through each verse and note the Subject, Object and Consequence of Repentance/Lack of Repentance.
Acts 11:18 is amazing as it shows (as does Hebrews 12:14-17) that repentance really is simply a change of mind. Nothing to do with turning from sin. God granted the Gentiles (Cornelius in this instance) the opportunity to change their mind and exercise faith in the Savior.
My eyes are so much more open to the false ‘repent of your sins’ to be saved message.
(Can’t bring myself to call it a gospel as it ain’t good news).
This article sadden my heart. I think of all the people in this article, the people who knock on my door or met on the street. All those famous pastors who ask for a commitments or pray for repentance (not knowing that repentance was already give to the Gentiles Acts 11:18). The only evidence I have is my belief in the death, burial, and resurrection.. In three days… All according to the scriptures 1 Cor 15: 1-4. It is so simple to just believe the word of God.
Christ crucified
Levi