Lordship Salvation: Frustrating Grace Down Under

by johninnc

Galatians 2:21: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

One of our readers sent me the following e-mail today depicting her interaction with an ardent LS minister in Australia. It was in response to our recent article entitled “Lordship Salvation: The Devil’s Advocate.” See link below:

Lordship Salvation: The Devil’s Advocate

The gentleman’s e-mail comments, which are presented with only minor edits, are in italics. My views regarding his comments are imbedded in red bold.

Hi (name of recipient withheld),

This completely denies the fact that there is a counterfeit salvation. It allows for people to think they are saved and are not.

My comment: We teach that one is saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. There never has been ANYONE who believed in Jesus as his Savior who does not have eternal life. 

Grace is grace alone but that grace comes with fruit and that fruit is works, repentance, etc.

My comment: I will go through each of the conditions that you have added to faith alone in Christ alone in order for one to be justified.

Works – we are saved by grace (unmerited favor), without works.

Ephesians 2:8-9: 

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And, I have heard the tired rebuttal that I need to read Ephesians 2:10, I have. Here it is:

Ephesians 2:10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Notice that it says SHOULD. Should is the only word consistent with grace. To quote a preacher friend of mine:

It’s not that we must – that would be works for salvation. And, it’s not that we will – that would be Calvinism. It’s should. And we should.

Repentance – repentance in salvation means a change of mind from any idea of religion that man may have and to accept God’s way of salvation.  Repentance does not in any sense include a demand for a change of conduct before or after salvation.

Etc. – as if insistence on works and repentance (undefined) were not enough for you to sufficiently frustrate grace, you have added “etc.” I have no idea what that even means.

There is NO justification without Sanctification. God does not start and then not finish.

My comment: one is positionally sanctified that moment he believes in Jesus as his Savior. But, the Bible does not promise progressive sanctification in the life of a believer.   Progressive sanctification requires a believer’s cooperation. We have addressed a verse (Philippians 1:6), often used by LSers to falsely prove the notion of the guarantee of progressive sanctification under our “Difficult Verses” section. See link below:

 Difficult Verses

All believers are glorified, so yes, God finishes what He starts.

This site plays into the hands of decisional regeneration. As a pastor I know that many receive Christ ‘amiss’ or ‘in vain’ as the scriptures speak. This is why we have all the warnings including Matt.7:21-23. This article completely ignores these scriptures.

My comment: We have addressed the false argument that we teach “decisional regeneration” in a previous article. Please see link below:

LS/Calvinist Decisional Regeneration Strawman

When scripture speaks of someone receiving Christ in vain, it is not because they have trusted in Christ alone, apart from works. In fact, this is the ONLY way that man may be saved. Trying to be saved by Christ PLUS works would constitute believing in vain. We have an article on believing in vain, linked below.

Believing in Vain

Matthew 7:21-23 does not refer to people who have trusted in Christ alone as Savior. It refers to those who recognize Jesus as Lord, but not as Savior.

It also has many ‘strawmen’ of what people supposedly teach on ‘Lordship salvation’ and cleverly misrepresents their views.. You may also not be aware – I do not teach ‘Lordship salvation’ as it is commonly taught today. I may do an article on that also soon.

My comment: In your e-mail to our reader, you have clearly and unequivocally confirmed that you teach Lordship “salvation”. In fact, your views are quite ardently Lordship “salvation” in nature.

I may teach on all this in (ministry name removed) soon .

My comment: You should not be teaching God’s word. As long as you continue to teach the tenets of Lordship salvation, that you deny teaching, you are under a curse.

Galatians 1:9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Thanks for alerting me to this article.

My comment: Why? So you can warn people against believing in Christ alone as their Savior?

Name of sender withheld

For the truth on how to receive eternal life click here: ETERNAL LIFE FOR YOU

137 responses to “Lordship Salvation: Frustrating Grace Down Under

  1. Cody that’s a good question, and one I’ve encountered also.

    The trouble is, they change the meaning, I’ll do it more formula form to see if I can make sense to you of what they are asking, and a few have been seemingly wanting to know, the majority it’s a game to win the argument.

    They say some of these things:

    repent = turn from sin
    repent = stop sinning
    repent = change your mind and a change of life or 180 degree turn
    So always to them repent = repent from sin

    BUT (we say):
    repent = change/mind or think differently.

    SO

    You COULD do some of these things with the word:

    repent about sin
    repent OF non-belief
    repent and do good
    repent FROM doing good then repent TO doing evil

    Yes, you could repent about or from sin, we do it all the time in our walk as believers, our views change on even what we used to consider sin, or the more time we spend with Him, the more we see things we might not have notices before, inward things.

    You can turn from your sin and cease doing it, such as in Jonah 3:9-10. That is called WORKS.

    We are not repenting from sin FROM unbelieving.
    With their definition that would mean: (Repent from sin) from the sin of unbelief. Ridiculous.
    We are changing our mind TO believing that our sin separates us from God and causes death. We are believing upon Christ and Him crucified for our sin, risen again in 3 days as the Scriptures said, giving eternal life to those who belief. Truth changes us FROM unbelieving WHEN we believe. That is an obvious fact.

    When our mind is changed or we think differently due to having learned from hearing the Scriptures (2 Tim 3:15/Rom 10:17), we are believing a truth by the vehicle that God gave us to come to that truth. The Word/the gospel (Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:18) which is the POWER of God unto salvation, we HAVE believed, it is not a work, it is something true we have believed for ourselves. Whether it is a sin or not means nothing, we all are guilty under sin, and we all have to believe, or that is the one sin that will keep us under His wrath.

    One can repent from all sorts of things.

    The difference is their definition of repent. They get it wrong.

    Repenting in our book is not a work because of the definition.
    Repenting in their book means something altogether different because of adding from sin to the word repent.
    Calvinists don’t understand the irony of insisting one cannot believe, but insist you repent and turn from all your sins (Ray Comfort), before you believe. Ludicrous, they play word and mind games…

  2. Cody, this guy is just being obtuse and playing head games with you.

    This is similar to the atheist who says things like: “If God is all-powerful, can he create a lock that he can’t unlock?”

    In other words, he is trying to refute God’s clear Word on how to have eternal life by creating confusion.

    See John 16:8-9:

    “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement: of sin, because they believe not on me;”

    Believing in Jesus as Savior results in eternal life. Repentance, in a salvation context, requires giving up all other confidences (including one’s willingness to turn from sins).

    Also, God’s Word says turning from evil ways (sins) is a work. See Jonah 3:10.

  3. Hello yall! I was curious if yall have encounters lordship salvation advocates who try to justify there view on repenting of sins and say that “if repenting of sin is a work then repenting of unbelief is as well due to unbelief being a sin”. Would any of yall have a good response to this guy that I can learn? I was really sad to find out that this preacher I liked turned out to be lordship in his views. Any help on this would be very welcomed/appreciated! God Bless

  4. Sorry about the little venting, I am tired of these people so willing to use God’s Word as a weapon, twisting it, hurting people, shutting up the Kingdom of heaven to others as well as themselves.

  5. Mary, I often, and I mean very often, meet Bible teachers and pastors alike who do not at all understand James 2 speaks to believers of their justification before men. It doesn’t dawn on them that Abraham wasn’t justified (as in being given eternal life/declared righteous) when he offered up Isaac. Where is their knowledge of the Scriptures? And if they don’t catch that, then what about it is believers being spoken to, are believers incrementally justified?

    Their lack of understanding and discernment floors me.

    Sometimes when I hear them use 1 Cor 6 or Gal 5 to suggest certain people won’t go to heaven, I’d like to ask them if they’ve considered Rom 1, since they are without understanding where they might end up?

    31 without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

  6. Mary, you may recall the below article. It addresses the issue that you are describing:

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/04/05/rock-paper-scissors-calvinismlordship-salvations-game-of-deceit/

  7. Yes Holly,
    David Cloud I thought was wonderful too, he does do a good job on a lot of articles, he even exposed billy graham, but never mention his false gospel. It seems satan uses the Lordshippers to draw them in with the errors of the pentecostal and charasmatic movement and Calvanism and then draw them into error that way. Then satan uses the lordshippers to draw them in with calvanism and pentecostalism. Talk about confusion. If we are not sticklers with our doctrine we will be taken in to.

    I spoke to a gentleman a retired pastor possibly who is now an itinerant minister and he used james 2.14 to say a dead faith is no faith at all, while claiming we don’t believe in works salvation. He said we must have evidence, i said where is the litmus test in the bible to say how much, they don’t even know, they have fallen under heresy, while claiming calvanism is false, oh the enemy has plenty of subtle tricks up his sleeve and he has just about taken all the independt baptists under his spell.

    There are only two religions works or grace, jesus either did it all or he didn’t.

  8. So many verses come to mind, Gal 1:10 is one as you said. Also these remind me of those people patting each other on the back vs. what we are supposed to do.

    For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. 1 Cor 10:12

    For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile: but as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts. 1 Thess 2:3-4

    Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; but have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 2 Cor 4:1-2

    Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Gal 4:16

  9. Change agents and paradigm shift. Funny, they are tolerant of all the other people’s descriptions of ‘what’ the gospel is, even losing salvation, turning from sin vs. one that might just say you have to be sorry, they all compromise with each other, but then call us greasy grace.

    This ‘pinpoint’ tract company (not good news, so not going to say gospel), had this ‘tract’ where it showed a picture of man with a tie, with his tail out to his shirt, slightly rumpled, and drinking wine out of a bottle. The caption was, “I’M SAVED BY GRACE!” (as the man begins to get ready to take a drink). And then at the bottom it says, BETTER GO READ: Titus 2:11-12, Romans 6:14, James 2:19-20; 1 Cor 6:9-10.

    So holier than thou and self-righteous hypocrites who corrupt minds from the simplicity that is in Christ. They are pointing, O Lord, I thank thee that I am not like that man over there….

  10. Penelope, there is no doubt that the cross offends. Most people are only comfortable if the necessity of good works for eternal life is somewhere in the equation.

  11. Yes Penelope, I think many of us on this blog can recount similar stories from all of our former churches! Which is why we are BLESSED by this group of believers. Most churches don’t share our ‘radical’ views on the simple faith message which makes our fellowship here so sweet.

  12. Maybe that is the Spirit had Paul put in Galatians 1:10 put in….to assure us who’s approval we should go for, and that when we challenge doctrinal errors we will be swimming against the current of collective thought. I’ve had to remind myself of that verse several times throughout our ordeal with our local church. When you preach truth from the Word, you will be persecuted. When you preach subtle or blatant circumcision (law), you will be accepted. The cross offends!

  13. Joyfounder, I have been calling it “group think” for awhile now. I ink you’re onto something. I know in our (very recently) former church, it was extreme group think and “yes men” running the show. We were “divisive, quarrelsome, and unforgiving” since we didn’t go along with then status quo.

  14. (JoyFounder)

    Holly, not to get completely off topic, but your ‘unity’ comment triggered my memory of a column I just read by investigative journalist Jon Rappoport and his recent writings on ‘Matrixology’ or the collective thought vs. individual thought. After skimming through one of his columns I immediately thought of the dissension in today’s church and wondering if it too could be categorized as collective vs. individual. And to take it a step further into the LS belief systems. Are those of us who believe in Grace Alone, through Faith Alone, in Christ Alone individualists, avoiding a collective mindset as opposed to the LSers/Calvinists who tend to arrive at a collective agreement on what to believe based on following a false teacher(s)? Jesus was CLEARLY an individualist, fighting the collective (Pharisees, etc.), and He alone offering complete eternal salvation so that we only depend on Him, no one else. I don’t know, just something I’ve been thinking about.

  15. Cyndi/Joy, so true.

    Satan is subtle, and so are his ministers of ‘light’. Complacency now becomes unity for them.

    I don’t mind you preaching to the choir 🙂 I’m singing off the same sheet 🙂

  16. Alice – I believe that is how David Cloud is bringing in people, standing against Calvinism, but subtly teaching load-ship. You should go put this portion on the wiki-index, because Cloud-wayoflife- is big, and a lot of people ‘think’ he is someone who believes grace is free, and look at him for their discernment ministry and instead are going to be lead into bondage:

    “I recently read his pdf on ‘Calvinism Debate’ which is excellent in exposing the false teaching of Calvinism. However, I was so disheartened when I read this on page 48:
    “Many have rejected traditional definitions of repentance as “a change of mind that results in a change of life” and have redefined repentance, instead, as merely “a change from unbelief to belief.” If a large percentage of their “converts” show no sign of a change of life, it does not greatly concern
    them, because they do not believe that repentance always results in a change of life. They are quick to give people assurance even if there is no evidence of salvation’.

    We are not ‘quick to give anyone assurance’ pf their salvation, what skybalon (skubala -dung). What we are is to be quick to check what true evidence of salvation is — and that is whether or not they have believed the gospel on their behalf.

  17. Cyndi (JoyFounder)

    Unreal is right > I’ve never heard of David Cloud. One more to avoid I guess.

    You know if Satan is the ‘deceiver’ it isn’t rocket science realizing where he will plant and fertilize the seeds of deception. Christians assume Satan is obvious, if that were true than it wouldn’t be deception. We’ve all been under deception at some point in our spiritual walk and to see these congregations today who think they’re exempt reminds me of a certain church in Revelation: I wonder if the church of Laodicea realized it was living under deception, complacency and hypocrisy. Now here is the proper use of the word ‘repent’ > ” “Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me”. (Revelation 3:19-20) Jesus desired fellowship with these lukewarm Christians which meant they were NOT in fellowship with Him @ the time of His rebuke. But these deceived churches who preach Calvin & LS are the first to point fingers @ everyone else (i.e. Strange Fire witch hunt Conference @ Grace Community) and us ‘heretics’ who believe in Grace Alone, through Faith Alone, in Christ Alone. Guess I’m preaching to the choir now . . . I’ll stop.

  18. Speaking of David Cloud, I recently read his pdf on ‘Calvinism Debate’ which is excellent in exposing the false teaching of Calvinism. However, I was so disheartened when I read this on page 48:
    “Many have rejected traditional definitions of repentance as
    “a change of mind that results in a change of life” and have redefined
    repentance, instead, as merely “a change from
    unbelief to belief.” If a large percentage of their “converts”
    show no sign of a change of life, it does not greatly concern
    them, because they do not believe that repentance always
    results in a change of life. They are quick to give people assurance even if there is no evidence of salvation’.
    So there it is: David Cloud unfortunately does NOT understand GRACE.

  19. Cyndi, someone directed me to a youtube video (which since it was only a few minutes) agreed to listen to, it was unread that it wasn’t only about what Jesus did on the cross, that was a lie from Satan the guy said, but it was about what we did, and he even said, It was about us, not Him. Unreal…

    David Cloud put out an article on repentance which someone shared with me, and it was on repentance, he used examples all the way into Rev 16 and those who had taken the mark, how they did not repent from their deeds, he used these examples to make his point of what was true repentance and a changed life. I was amazed…. even for a backdoor load-shipper like Cloud.

  20. Cyndi (JoyFounder)

    Wow. And to add to their blaspheme they teach ‘doctrines of man’ (i.e.: Calvin, Spurgeon, etc.) to God’s salvation gift, Jesus’ perfect sacrifice . . . as if God didn’t plan it well enough, as if Jesus’ work was incomplete. Which brings me full circle to my Pastor Justin > preaching the Word (and the gospel message) should always bring us to JESUS and not man. Just like John the Baptist “BEHOLD the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world!”

  21. Greater love hath no man…is the message, His Son freely laid down His life for His friends, for many, for all, for every man, for the world, for the whole world — and freely this gift is offered to all men. And they lie, and they change what He said, (with no trembling – Isaiah 66:2), and they’re so enticing in their wisdom, wise in their own eyes — as they present His precious saving gospel with their excellency of speech. But they have not one ounce of fear, no weakness or trembling in them(1 Cor 2:1-5) but are puffed up clouds without water….who refuse to share the wonderful news that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, because they despise the Word of the Holy One of Israel…

    What wrath do they think they will face on that day for saying otherwise, for adding to the free gift for preaching another Jesus?…

  22. Cyndi (JoyFounder)

    ” Amazing to me that they have no fear…” That’s PROFOUND Holly. Can you elaborate? Preach it sister!

  23. JoyFounder – lol, thanks for the advice. Some don’t even have doctrinal statements or they have a video with the music and lights on in the background. Try finding the ‘good news’ or the ‘gospel’ on their websites. Amazing to me that they have no fear…

  24. Holly it’s sooooo much easier to check out a church’s beliefs these days thanks to Websites. Although some sites are really cryptic and doctrinal statements are sometimes difficult to find it beats driving to the church and asking a poor unsuspecting church secretary for it. Tee Hee.

  25. Cyndi – What a great idea…(to check your past church’s SOF)

    It would make a great kind of Diary blog, what kind of a church to not attend 🙂

  26. Mary, don’t give up. I can think of two that I know who have come around, I persisted with the verses on eternal life, I even got frustrated and wrote a post, which became a blog on eternal security, which consisted of things that would have to be un-done, if we could sin away our salvation. I have a lot more than this but you get it. The point is, that it turned out both of them came to believe the real gospel, and so just keep sharing the Word. Keep sharing the gift is eternal life, which is how long? 🙂 Pray for them. Those are just two I can think of, and I know more personally that have come out recently. A works based religionist preaching to a works based religionist only begets a works based religionist called by another name.

    CAN WE BE UN-GIFTED THE FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE? Rom 6:23; Eph 2:8-9
    CAN WE BECOME UN-RECONCILED? 2 Cor 5:18-20; Col 2:14-17
    CAN WE BE UN-BORN AGAIN? Jn 3:3,6; 1 Pet 1:23
    UN-BEGAT BY HIS WORD? James 1:18; 1 Pet 1:23
    UN-SAVED ONCE WE ARE SAVED? * Saved to the uttermost: Heb 7:25
    UN-MEMBERS OF THE BODY? 1 Cor 12:20-25
    UN-FINISHED BY THE AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH? Heb 12:2
    CAN WE BE UN-COMPLETED? Col 2:10; Heb 13:21
    UN-CONFIRMED BLAMELESS TO THE END? 1 Cor 1:8
    MADE UN-NECESSARY? 1 Cor 12:20-22
    HOW CAN WE BECOME UN-RIGHTEOUS, WHEN CHRIST IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS? Rom 10:4, Rom 3:22
    ARE WE MADE UN-ALIVE? Eph 2:1; 1 Pet 3:18
    HOW DO WE BECOME UN-ESTABLISHED or UN-GUARANTEED? We lose that too? 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Eph 1:13
    UN-HEALED BY HIS STRIPES? 1 Pet 2:24

  27. Yes unfortunately this is most of what is out there. I spoke to a member of my family yesterday morning who attends a pentecostal church, she said she agrees that grace is a gift, i corrected her that we don’t have to repent of our sins, she said okay. But she said don’t tell me if someone turns their back on god and even blasphemes him, that they can still be saved. Back to Arminianism and the devilish doctrine of perserverance of the saints. (are they really saints, the people that claim this). Its so sad as she is trying to reach my catholic parents with this, she has exactly the same false gospel they have.

    Satan has really done a number on the works salvationists, they can’t make the distinctions with the contrasts out there. Satan won’t allow her to see it, god knows how I have tried to reach her with this. At the end of the day, they don’t understand grace. I can only leave it with god and pray that they accept the good news before they die. How many are dropping into hell, even as we speak. SAD SAD SAD.

  28. Cyndi (JoyFounder)

    My husband and I were having a very nice relaxing Sunday lunch today. Our conversation automatically reflected on our Pastor’s sermon this morning from the Gospel of John. We reveled in Pastor Justin’s love for Jesus and how he always removed the barriers [what we have been taught through false LS doctrines] to Jesus when sharing the gospel message. Praise GOD we have a pastor who believes in Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone. He NEVER has confused the Gospel message.

    My husband began comparing past churches we’ve attended. We decided to look up their doctrinal statements and here’s what we found at the church we attended the longest (a fundamental, evangelical Conservative Baptist church):
    “We believe that man was created by God in His own image; that he sinned and thereby incurred physical, spiritual and eternal death, which is separation from God; that as a consequence, all human beings are born with a sinful nature and are sinners by choice and therefore under condemnation. We believe that those who repent and forsake sin and trust Jesus Christ as Savior are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and become new creatures, delivered from condemnation and receive eternal life.”

    Do you all see the barriers to Jesus here? Repent and FORSAKE SIN?! Reminds me of Ray Comfort speak.

    Another church we attended (the senior pastor and many elders are grads from Master’s > JMac) had a doctrinal statement of :
    “We believe that all men are sinners by nature and by choice and are, therefore, under condemnation. We believe that those who repent of their sins and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are saved from the penalty of sin, born again unto eternal life by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, and brought into personal fellowship with God. We believe that salvation is wholly of God by grace alone and received by faith alone in Christ alone—in the merit of Jesus Christ and not on the basis of human merit or works. We believe that all the redeemed once saved are kept by God’s power and are thus secure in Christ forever.”
    More barriers > repentance.

    Another thing that struck me was that there is no mention in these churches doctrinal statements of God’s LOVE and that Jesus died for us because He loved us! It’s all sin and condemnation. Yes we’ve all sinned and come short of the glory of God. Why did God send His only Son to die for us? Because He LOVED us.

    The church we now attend isn’t perfect BUT I thank the Lord that our pastor loves Jesus and is in awe of God’s amazing power and grace. Because our pastor understands who God is, and lives a humble life in gratitude that Jesus provided the only pathway to God, he boldly preaches we can be saved without the barriers of works. No barriers, only believe.

  29. Cody,
    Bill Gaithers are very ecumenical, their lyrics are very ecumenical, i would stay away.

  30. Cody, the Bill Gaither reunion was held at the Billy Graham Library. This is a questionable association at best.

  31. hello yall! I had a quick questions, I was listening to Bill Gaither music as his vocal band sung songs full of truth and Grace, and the thought occurred to me and made me wonder do they really belive what they are singing?. I don’t trust any TV evangelist anymore due to all the LSer, Armenism and calvonism they teach. Do yall know if the gaither vocal band leans twords LSer side or not? I just want to know who I’m listening to if yall know what I mean. Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks and God Bless!!

  32. Hi William, at the end of your recent comment you wrote this:

    “Again, I reiterate that reading God’s Word alone is not enough.”

    Do you really believe that reading God’s Word is not enough?

    Man shall not live on bread alone, but by … teachings of men?

    Really?

    I understand what you are saying. I have been blessed by the works of men. I’ve also been mightily confused.

    My husband’s Grandmother grew up in a German settlement in Central Asia. They had the Bible alone. No books, sermons, nothing. Just the Bible.

    I don’t believe I’ve met more unworldly, joyful and Godly people. Simple believers and followers of Jesus.

    Do you believe that her Christian walk is deficient because she didn’t have access to the teachings of men?

    Not to provoke, I just struggle to think that a person would believe the Bible is not enough for us.

  33. Alice, I am very grateful that the Lord showed you the truth and joyful that you believed it!

    Romans 1:16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

  34. Johninnc, that was very helpful, thank you. Ron Shea’s Clear Gospel doctrinal statement confirms what I thought.
    BTW I meant to say earlier that those who heard AND BELIEVED a garbled message of ‘faith + works’ gospel from the beginning and never understood GRACE or trusted only in Christ apart from their works at some point in their lives are deceived and LOST. How sad…!! I was ALMOST one of them…!!
    Praise the LORD, He delivered me from such a deception.

  35. Alice, I think there are people who have sincerely believed in false gospels, and are thereby deceived.

    The following excerpt from Clear Gospel’s doctrinal statement addresses this, as follows:

    We believe that the requirement of works to attain eternal life is incompatible with the belief that Salvation is a gift of God (John 4:10; Romans 4:4; 11:6; Galatians 2:21; 3:10-14; 5:1-4; Ephesians 2:8-9), including:

    i) the belief that the performance of specific works or actions, such as circumcision, baptism in water, public confession of Christ, or speaking in tongues, is required in order to secure eternal life;

    ii) the belief that a promise of future works of the law must be offered in exchange for God’s offer of eternal life, such as “repenting of one’s sins,” or “making Christ the Lord of one’s life;”

    iii) the belief that obedience to God’s laws are necessary to maintain one’s salvation, and that salvation can therefore be lost through disobedience to the laws of God;

    iv) the belief that one must persevere in good works and obedience to the Ten Commandments to confirm that they are saved, thereby requiring that works are ultimately necessary to secure salvation, and that the sure and final declaration of salvation is only offered in conjunction with the works of the law.

    We believe that the aforementioned works-based doctrines contravene the very meaning of the word “grace,” insulting the gracious nature of God Himself as the giver of eternal life, thereby constituting a rejection of his offer of eternal life (Romans 11:6-7; Ephesians 2:8-9). We find no evidence of saving faith in a profession of faith tainted by any of these heresies.

    We acknowledge that believers may fall into error or confusion regarding salvation and works after their conversion, as happened to the church of Galatia (Galatians 1:6-7. 3:1). We further acknowledge that the believers of Galatia were regarded as “brethren,” (Galatians 1:3), having fallen into this grievous error subsequent to their coming to an authentic faith in Christ (Galatians 3:1-3). We note, however, that the authors of this grievous error, who had never believed on Christ alone, having simply added Jesus Christ to a pre-existing confession of salvation by works (Acts 15:1) were regarded as “false brethren.” (Galatians 2:4). To this end, we affirm that a lost sinner must, at some time in his life, believe on Christ alone, apart from the works of the law, for his salvation, and that apart from such an authentic moment of saving faith, there is no hope of salvation.

    We believe that the more ardently and regularly a pastor or teacher holds forth any of the above perversions of the gospel of grace as a necessity for salvation, the more firmly a pre-existing grid of salvation-by-works is fabricated in the hearts and minds of the congregants, progressively shackling the lost sinner more hopelessly behind a veil of deception, making it less and less likely that any forthcoming profession of faith has meaningfully grasped the message of salvation.

  36. I am wondering if it is possible to be truly saved in the Biblical sense (that is ONLY trust in Christ’s finished work on the cross for our salvation), while at the SAME TIME being taught in our Bible studies that “Salvation is a free gift of grace, BUT you have to give Him your life in return by forsaking all, total surrender,submission and obedience, complete turning from sin, give evidence by works, persevere till the end of life’ etc. (rhetorical question…)

    I understand that there may be SOME people currently under LS who ARE SAVED provided they trusted in the sufficiency of Christ’s work ALONE sometime in the past, but if we only heard a garbled message of ‘grace/faith plus works salvation’ from the very beginning of hearing the ‘gospel’, isn’t it possible that we deceived ourselves thinking that we were saved and going to heaven when in fact we were not saved at all?

  37. Alice, from what you have written, the BSF notes are infested with LS.

    If the rich young ruler had to give up his riches to receive eternal life (forsake all for Jesus), then eternal life really wouldn’t be a gift, and the Bible would be full of contradictions.

    If repentance meant “a complete turning away from sin, evil, godlessness so that one’s whole life is now turned toward God as its central goal”, then eternal life really wouldn’t be a gift. It would be a trade. Again, the Bible would be full of contradictions.

    There is a great comment, linked below, that addresses these errors quite well:

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/10/26/i-marvel-lordship-salvations-spookiest-passage/#comment-45900

  38. I really do appreciate all your comments, I learn so much from you. I recently went back to ‘difficult passages’ on ExPreacherman to really get my head around to understand the Scriptures from free-grace perspective. Then I decided to compare ExPreacherman’s interpretations of the same Scripture with my old BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) notes (yes I have taken a bold step here by naming the organisation that I was involved with from 1996 to 2011 ie 16 years in which I served as a ‘discussion leader’ for 11 years). Some of you may be familiar with BSF, it is an international Bible study originated in USA in the 1950’s and now taught in most western countries as well as India, China and some African countries.Tens of thousands of men, women and children all study the same passage week after week.

    Anyway my old BSF Matthew study notes state regarding ‘REPENTANCE’ in Matt: 3:8 ‘It is not enough to acknowledge sin; repentance involves a complete turning away from sin, evil, godlessness so that one’s whole life is now turned toward God as its central goal. When people asked John the Baptist what they should do, he was very practical as Luke records in 3:10 -14 some requirements for changed attitude: generosity must replace selfishness and greed, and to tax collectors he said: honesty must replace shrewd business dealings and to soldiers: self-control must replace violence with contentment….’ In Matt: 7:16 BSF explains ‘You shall know them by their fruit’ alongside James 2:26 ‘faith without works is dead’. BSF also taught that the Rich Young Ruler in Matt 19: 16-24 didn’t receive eternal life because he was not willing to give up his riches (forsaking all for Jesus).
    There is so much of LS in the BSF notes but no CLARITY of the gospel of grace, I am wondering if I was ever ‘saved’ while I was at BSF all those years. Was I not under an accursed gospel? If you are a former or current BSF-er reading this, please don’t be angry with me for naming, I am simply quoting what the BSF notes said, and in my opinion they are LS though they may deny it.

  39. William, I don’t know if I would have ever come to faith in Christ without finding out what the gospel is not. I was so infested with LS that the Bible seemed full of contradictions to me.

    Ron Shea addressed this in “The Gospel” booklet. Following is an excerpt:

    ABOUT THE GOSPEL BOOKLET

    Today a variety of “gospel” messages flood the air waves and pulpits across the globe. They range from sentimental overtures encouraging the lost sinner to “invite Jesus into his heart,” to threatening admonitions requiring the unbeliever to “repent of his sins.” Not surprisingly, believer and unbeliever alike have been left in a state of confusion. Even when the Gospel is proclaimed clearly and accurately, the hearer will often filter the words of the evangelist through a preexisting grid of false gospels which he has already heard, so failing to understand the saving message of Jesus Christ. With this in mind, The Gospel Booklet was written not only to explain and illustrate those concepts essential to saving faith such as our Lord’s atoning death and the doctrine of grace, but to address and correct much of the false teaching that is so often associated with the Christian Gospel.

    So, I agree with you that sometimes people need help understanding the basic tenets of the faith. That is why this website exists.

    That said, I agree with Beholdason that we should be careful with the teachings of men. There are things with which I disagree taught by everyone I have encountered. That means they would disagree with some of the interpretations that I hold.

  40. Beholdason,

    I understand what your’re saying, but from my own experience I have found that just reading the Bible alone is not enough. I need the help of free grace speakers that are sound in their doctrine, Bible commentaries that are written by free grace theologians and sometimes expositional articles written by free grace writers on hard to interpret passages in the Bible, and also coming to this website and reading the comments that fellow believers post. It’s a combination of those things that have helped me to grow and to understand God’s Word in the right context.

    The speakers that I mentioned are very good. They are indeed one of the few that teach the Bible correctly and in the right context. Few are the true, but false are the many. I have encountered way too many people on YouTube who are just utterly deceived by false doctrine. Some are deceived by listening to false teachers like MacArthur, and Washer, and some are deceived by just relying on their own “feelings” and “intuitions” reading the Bible on their own and eisegeting the text by reading their theology into the Bible.

    I believe that the key to understanding Scripture in the right context is listening to sermons by good free grace speakers, good bible commentaries, expositional articles, praying to the Lord for wisdom and insight, and plain old reasoning and common sense. I always check the literature I read to make sure that none of it is contaminated or has traces of Calvinism/Lordship Salvation/Arminianism in it. Again, I reiterate that reading God’s Word alone is not enough.

  41. Russell, I think the Lord first started training me in the differences (although they weren’t really stated) in my Christian High School. I was arguing against losing your salvation back then, and my reformed friends, their churches left me cold, like Laodicea, dead, stilted, I just don’t know how to explain it from a child’s point of view, and I was a child, I started school young, and graduated from high school at 16, and went through a semester of college at 16. Means nothing except that I didn’t get along well, I seemed to always be on the outside, and I wasn’t mature enough then to know why.

    There are a lot of reasons that brought me to this, but the Lord is the best answer. I was a believer who was somewhat bewitched, but didn’t quite buy it, but you get into a pattern of listening to the error, and so you either stay enmeshed or you leave it. I left, and every time I tried another, I left. I didn’t exactly pinpoint it, but it never settled on me as truth, I have sorrowful circumstances that in God’s grace drew me nearer to Him. In that, just asking Him for help to help me be obedient to get into His Word and prayer changed my life over time. I think I was the slowest testimony out there. Nothing dynamic really about mine, except I learned through His Word that I needed to read it daily, study it, try to pray for more things, and I didn’t put any burdens on myself harder than that. He asked us to abide in Him and in His Word, I believed I would fail, and I believed He would help me, and I believed I could trust Him.

    From there, well, somehow I started seeing error, without knowing what it was, and hatred when I would speak. I would try to keep grace and salt in my speech in case they were unbelievers, but I was surprised back then. And I didn’t want to speak about it, because I felt I was too sensitive for the repercussions, yet how could I not warn if it would harm someone. So let’s just say I got into it, a little here and there, in searching His Word, and having questions, and asking Him to show me. I told Him if He wanted to, I’d speak just to that which came across my desk so to speak 🙂 The Lord has a sense of humor, I think He seemed to bring a new error, a new teacher, daily for years 🙂 People and religions and things I’d never heard of, oh my….

    Probably have forgotten a lot, and in some ways, you wish you didn’t know there was so much out there, but thank the Lord, we have His Word to go study, and go meditate on, and know that He will give us wisdom when we ask, in faith knowing He gives His children good and perfect gifts. Asking to be humbled when we’re not, and asking for Him to teach us in the order we need to learn in. Sometimes we race ahead of ourselves 🙂 I hope I answered, not sure I could explain exactly, except it was through seeing error, seeing others hurt by it, asking questions, praying, speaking, and well, Lord willing, I’ll get up and do it again tomorrow 🙂 In Christ love to you all…

  42. William, you wrote the following:

    I totally agree with what you just said, In fact, I don’t listen to Christian radio anymore because there are so many, many, false teachers on the air spewing out heresy after heresy. Just stick with Ralph Yankee Arnold, Hank Lindstrom, and Thomas Cucuzza and you’ll be just fine.

    With respect, I don’t recommend that any Christian should stick with any particular teacher/s nor endorse everything they have to say on every bible issue. I find this a dangerous way to think. Whilst I appreciate the teaching from Mr Arnold and Mr Cucuzza on a wide range of topics, they are men and men can make errors.

    As I have been reading the Gospels again lately I see that the Lord Jesus in many instances reminds everyone that He Himself is our Great Master Teacher and not many should consider themselves teachers. We have God’s Spirit and we have the Bible. We don’t need to rush to Youtube everyday to hear sermons from men when we can read the Bible and trust the Spirit to teach us Himself. (just my opinion)

    We need to be really careful that we don’t adopt men as our teachers and gobble up all of their teachings without questioning whether or not what they are teaching is correct. I know in the past I have trusted men and been left a mess when I’ve been shown that they were in error.

    This is not a criticism of the above mentioned men at all. I haven’t disagreed with anything I’m read or heard from them. Just making a point about elevating men to places where only the Lord should hold.

  43. Cyndi (JoyFounder)

    John, I think we could begin to split Biblical hairs here > It’s unclear the extent of knowledge these early Old Testament believers had of The Messiah. Of course there was Old Testament prophesy which was very clear about the coming Messiah, with John the Baptist as the final prophetic declaration of THE Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. I absolutely agree the larger concern is for the unsaved Jews. So Luke we need to be witnessing to them > they are lost as well as the gentiles. There are many saved Jews, Messianic Jews, who believe in Jesus Christ but retain their Jewish traditions (at least to a small extent). Someone outside the synagogues had to reach these Jewish believers. There are many evangelical ministries, who understand the relationship to saved Jews and End Times prophesy, directed at the Jewish people today . The Jews will play a huge role in the 2nd coming of Jesus.

    May God reveal His truths to you Luke as you study His Word.

  44. Joy, I think that those who were saved before Christ were saved by faith in a coming Christ. They didn’t know His name, but they knew He was coming to take away the sins of the world.

  45. Hi John/Luke;
    ‘For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (Romans 4:3, 5-6 KJV)
    Here the Apostle Paul was referencing the passage in Genesis: ‘And he believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness.’ (Genesis 15:6 KJV)

    The Jews were taught to obey the law for righteousness sake. Those who fully trusted in the law alone to save them would not have gone to Heaven. If any of them had the saving faith described in Romans 4 then those rare individuals will be in Heaven. At least that’s my interpretation from this passage. During Jesus Christ’s transfiguration on the Mount, Elijah & Moses stood with Him, according to Matthew 17. During Moses & Elijah’s lives there is no real indication that they knew of the eventual crucifixion of Jesus Christ, but they clearly were saved & in Heaven. Elijah & Moses were Jews.

    Ultimately God knows, but I believe there are Jews (albeit few & far between) who have faith unto salvation.

  46. might I add acts 15

    in context Peter is teaching that there is no difference between jew and gentile.

    And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among US, that the GENTILES by my mouth should hear the word of the GOSPLE, and BELIEVE.

    8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare THEM witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto US;

    9 And put NO difference between US and THEM, purifying their hearts by FAITH.

    10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

    11 But we BELIEVE that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ WE shall be saved, even as THEY

    US = jews
    THEM = gentiles.

    as for jewish all saved……the Pharisees and Judas were jewish. Jesus told the Pharisees that they were making their followers twice the sons of hell then they were.

    my two cents.

  47. Luke, Jews who die before Christ’s return without believing that He died for their sins will not be able to go to heaven. And yes, we should preach the gospel to Jews.

    See Romans 1:16.

  48. 2 questions for the folks here on this site, I was trying to find it elsewhere but couldn’t so here goes:

    1. Are Jewish people who die before Christ’s return able to go to heaven without believing Christ died for their sins? (since they are described as God’s chosen)

    2. Should the Gospel be preached to Jewish people?

    Thanks.

  49. Preston. I completely understand you mean. On one hand I say come quickly, yet on other hand I don’t, so more souls can be saved. However, after all those years under LS teaching I used to dread the second coming of Christ because I was always in constant doubt.

    Bryan.

  50. Preston, I was saved within the last five years.

    Like you said, we should go fishing, and use whatever time is available to us.

  51. Preston, I was saved within the last five years.

    Like you said, we should go fishing, and use whatever time is available to us.

  52. Good day all,

    Russell – it was happening in Pauls day. One example is Galatia. Paul marveled how they were quickly removed from the gospel.

    friends,

    hopefully this next comment is taken with a good heart. This is NOT some kind of rebuke BUT merely a thought.

    “come quickly Lord Jesus”.

    I am in the opposite camp. Honestly I could have been saved when I was a teenager OR later in life. Personally, I don’t care. But how many people here were saved in the last 5 years. What if Jesus came quickly 5 years ago???? who here MIGHT not have been included?

    I don’t want him to come yet. I want more people to believe the gospel first.

    This is not a self-righteous comment as I think most here are more “holy” then me (1 example – I am a smoker). I would PLEASE exhort all here to try and “go fishing”. you could be throwing your nets and “nothing” all night – BUT there might be a time when Jesus says “cast your net over there”—and WHAM!!!

    but ultimately, it is His will. I don’t want Jesus to come yet, BUT I can certainly understand the longing for it. This world can be extremely depressing, especially from those receiving SEVERE persecution.

    Again, just some thoughts. from this seemingly, more carnal then he should be Christian. I think the “coolest” thing for me at His coming—–I wont be able to sin anymore.

    God Bless,

  53. Russell, I know what you mean. The first time I read “faith alone in Christ alone” I wrote it down. I even botched it when I wrote it and had to scratch through and fix it. I had never before heard the term. That was a little more than four years ago.

  54. Its been awhile since I have commented on anything. To be honest I am tired and frustrated by the lack of concern on the part of Christians over the issue of the free Grace Gospel. I can only think of two teachers on the radio that are free grace and I am not sure about them sometimes (Swindol and Tony Evans) It is discouraging. My own church seems to be wishy washy on this as I find litature in our bulliten or on the book shelf that is utter nonsese. It is either LS or repent and be saved. Has it always been like this? As many of you may remember my journey to understanding the Gospel started just about 3 years ago so I am more aware of the issue then before. (The first time I heard the term “free Grace” it sounded wrong. That shows you how far a person can get off the truth) Oh well. Come quickly Lord Jesus!! I appreciate this site so much. Holly I would like to hear how you got into this subject as I really enjoy reading your comments. In Christ Alone!

  55. Mary,

    I totally agree with what you just said, In fact, I don’t listen to Christian radio anymore because there are so many, many, false teachers on the air spewing out heresy after heresy. Just stick with Ralph Yankee Arnold, Hank Lindstrom, and Thomas Cucuzza and you’ll be just fine.

  56. If we don’t get the gospel right, whats the point of anything, we can end up in hell and understand whats going in the Roman Catholic Church, Calvanism and Arminianism.

    The devil is very funny these days, he has his own discernment ministries, calling out the name of other false teachers. When their own ministries are false.

    Its becoming so confusing, its hard to know what to believe some days,
    the devil, through men is messing people up, just by being a so called chrisitian. If I am driving and I turn on the so called christian station, I turn it off most days now, as they are promoting the Grahams or the Roman Catholic church. I feel like Jesus I just want to spew them out of my mouth.

  57. Cyndi (JoyFounder)

    Mary I completely agree > Howse’s insights into the U.S. Constitution, World Government & all the political stuff is so accurate. Don’t you wish he’d just stick with those topics? So right on Worldview, so wrong on doctrine.

  58. Yes Holly > what kind of love creates a ‘ministry’, or more accurately a salary dependent career, pointing out the sins of other ministries? A self appointed God-men. (Yes we are to point out error, but do we need to pay the bills with other’s bad theology)? One of Brannon Howse’s latest books is about preacher/teachers who twist scripture & twist theology. The irony.

  59. Yes, I have tried to appeal to him through different emails, he will not respond, but if I have to send money, very quick to respond. It sounds like lots of people have been trying to tell him where is erring, he refuses to listen and yes he is very unmerciful. Very disappointed in Brannon, I did learn a lot from him.

  60. May I add that I still find myself, at times, slipping into a LS thought pattern such as fruit judging. Much to my shock & horror I had this very thought re: my own mother recently. My father was a pastor/missionary so she dutifully fulfilled her required ministries alongside her husband as the pastor/missionary wife for many decades. At one point in her early 60’s she shut down > stopped her Biblical counseling, stopped giving the emotional & spiritual support to my father in his work, and ended her church attendance. She became angry and bitter > lashed out at everyone. Throughout her adult life my mother was extremely legalistic and unyielding with Christian rules & protocol. My family attended Bill Gothard’s annual Seminars, starting in the early ’70’s. From Gothard’s prompts, I recall making promises to God I knew I could never keep, thus living with constant guilt & torment thinking that I was never good enough to go to Heaven. I saw God as a condemning God of judgement & anger. I knew intellectually of His grace, but never connected it to my own life. Of course this was all reinforced by my mother’s legalism. (I can’t fault her as this was the generation in which she was raised, so I by no means blame her, I love her, she’s me mum!). So this viscous spiritual cycle in me went on up until a few years ago.

    About a month ago I recalled a phone conversation I had with my brother (a minister > help! they’re everywhere!) this past summer. (He had a difficult week with our Mother & was exasperated & frustrated as to how he could help her). During our conversation I asked him if he thought that Mother was saved. There it was! I was shocked @ what I had asked > fruit inspection. I was so ashamed of that question I had asked him. At that point I was FILLED with the Holy Spirit’s comfort & peace. The Holy Spirit assured me that regardless of all her bitterness, anger & judgement if she still BELIEVEs she will be saved from God’s judgement. God rebuked me for my error (judging my own mother’s fruit unto salvation) & completely comforted me with the simple salvation message at the same time. Wow our God is AWESOME. I know my mother understands the simple gospel message > I’ve heard her share the gospel with a gazillion people > Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. It is my prayer that my Mother simply believes.

    What is it some Pastor/teacher said once: the longest distance in the universe is the distance from the head to the heart.

  61. Johninnc – oh brother, and truth is somehow an ‘opinion’ and ‘interpretation’, I literally provided no comments, just Scripture, and the guy already knew how I was interpreting it…. And yet, almost zero Scripture from all of his posts. Or, they literally ignore it, and cast God’s Word right behind them as if it is nothing, no fear and trembling (Ps 50:16-17; Is 66:2)

  62. Cindi – Brannon Howse is hard, don’t know if it’s through the deceitfulness of sin (through false teachings) or just is of the world and makes merchandise of God’s people. Either way, I never followed him much, but he and Vic are birds of a feather.

  63. Yes John, I’ve heard that quote within the IBP teachings. I’m sure you both are familiar with the Recovering Grace website & their revelations of all things Gothard? One more tragic example of where all these ‘followers of men’ & law keepers end up; in sin’s devastation.

    As I look back on my Christian journey I realize God’s grace & mercy. He rescued me from so much legalism & false teaching. I was surrounded by JMac grads for decades & sat under years of IBP satanic ‘spiritual’ slavery teachings. Jesus saved me twice > once from eternal separation from God & second from false teaching IN the church!

  64. Joy, one of my wife’s former friends (LS who no longer talks to her) tried to appeal to her with a Bill Gothard quote. Something like: “Truth, carried to an extreme, is heresy.”

  65. Cyndi (JoyFounder)

    I can’t help but comment when I hear Brannon Howse’s name, Mary & Holly! Holly you’re not alone as he is extremely unmerciful with anyone who questions his LS/Repentance + salvation, and any other false doctrines he proclaims. I was booted off his website (a blessing in disguise) > too much complaining about JMac. His guest ‘theologians’, this includes columnists on his website as well as guest speakers, are regularly misguided or downright wrong on much of their theology & Biblical interpretations. I’ve watched him dig his heels further and further into the JMac way (as opposed to Jesus’ narrow way). The topper is that JMac will be his Keynote speaker @ Brannon Howse’s annual Branson Conference this Spring. What’s sooooo tragic is that BH pitches his conferences & the like to the YOUTH. As a parent of a teen I find this so very disheartening. These young eager minds are being filled with all these untruths. TRAGIC. Parallels Bill Gothard, in my opinion.

  66. Phil, I didn’t see your prior post till now, but Ankerburg and Dave Reagan, all men I didn’t really know their exact positions (my fault — I didn’t go look), I even admin’ed a FB page, Christ in Prophecy with his co-host Nathan Jones. Some of those prophecy teachers I ran across on there, Jimmy DeYoung was one, they are all lordship as far as I know, and Reagan is Arminian, check out DeYoung, I believe he like MacArthur says you can take the Mark of the Beast and still be saved.

  67. Mary – so true with Brannon Howse, and so he has quite a following but can be quite harsh if you disagree with some of his stances. I know from experience…

  68. Dino- I went through quite a bit of chastening, and when I first really ‘saw’ that passage, I wept because I knew of all I had been through, the difficulties, even His Word, was all for my good.

  69. Behold a Son, started flowing one day with some who were insisting on FB you can lose something that is eternal. He loves me, He loves me not, He loves me, He loves me not…. what a never ending treadmill…Un-real is right 🙂

  70. Dino – UN-Justified is there on my link 🙂 If I had posted all, it would have looked like they had 10 more visitors lol! I just posted a small section, thanks! See the link for more if you like, and I’m sure you can add a bunch more, that post could have gone on so long.

  71. Hi Phil,
    Jimmy de Young hangs around Brannon Howse, who idolises MacArthur,
    they are all talking like LS s and Calvanists. Brannon Howse needs to be avoided, as you will become doctrinally confused.

  72. Holly, you are too funny.

    I would have never ever thought to put it like that.

    UNreal.

    hehe

  73. Hi Holly,
    According to the Arminians we can, have put this to them.
    AMAZING

  74. Hi Holly,

    Let me add to what you just said

    Can one be UN-JUSTIFIED? (Acts 13:39)

    So far the Lord has used me to win a couple of people to Christ. But I still have some friends who remain under another gospel. They turn me away and tell me that they already know all that and as far as they are concerned, They love God and God loves them. End of story. I call it “Emotional Driven” Gospel. People will emphasize the love of God and will create or stir up they hearts of the congregation to create hype or some kind of emotional upheaval and then they will mention stuff like Christ want’s you to have destiny or Christ want’s you to achieve your purpose this and that.. Well I say if they don’t preach a clear gospel, Hell is their destiny.

    I got used to the criticism and other things they say against me. They still believe one “must” produce fruits as evidences of his salvation. I don’t know what to do with them anymore..

    I found this pretty little verse. Thought it would be cool.

    1 Corinthians 11:32
    King James Version (KJV)
    But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

    I do believe we get chastened when we sin. I can accept that. But what is amazing here is, Chastening is made clear to be a good thing for us who sin because we will never be condemned with the world.

  75. This is a blog I did on eternal security, mostly silly ways of re-framing the Word, and the Bible verses that go with it.

    Here are just a few, lots more on the post.

    CAN WE BE UN-BORN AGAIN? Jn 3:3,6; 1 Pet 1:23

    UN-BEGAT BY HIS WORD? James 1:18; 1 Pet 1:23

    UN-SAVED ONCE WE ARE SAVED? * Saved to the uttermost: Heb 7:25

    UN-FINISHED BY THE AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH? Heb 12:2

    CAN WE BE UN-COMPLETED? Col 2:10; Heb 13:21

    MADE UN-NECESSARY? 1 Cor 12:20-22

    HOW CAN WE BECOME UN-RIGHTEOUS, WHEN CHRIST IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS? Rom 10:4, Rom 3:22

    UN-GIFTED ETERNAL LIFE? Rom 6:23

    HOW DO WE BECOME UN-GUARANTEED? We lose that too? Corinthians 1:21-22, Eph 1:13

    UN-HEALED BY HIS STRIPES? 1 Pet 2:24

    BECOME UN-INHERITED? Acts 20:32; Eph 1:14
    SO DOES THAT UN-DEFILED INHERITANCE, BECOME DEFILED AGAIN?

    UNFORGIVEN? (Isn’t that a movie?) Will He UNFORGIVE you in the reverse of ALL OF YOUR SINS? Col 2:13; Titus 2:14; Heb 10:10, 14
    UN-TRANSLATED FROM THE KINGDOM OF HIS DEAR SON? Col 1:13
    UN-ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED? Eph 1:6

    http://redeemingmoments.com/2014/04/25/1610/

  76. BeholdaSon, seems like I have a number of people who seem to think they need to warn people of my error (not by the Word) but they seem to prefer gossip, fear, and innuendo…

    May the Lord keep His children encouraged.

  77. I read Mary’s post. Apparently Church believed salvation is about being faithful to your faithfulness. faith+works.

    I was watching John Ancherberg’s show tonight and he was talking about the Rapture with his guest Jimmy De Young. Both of them gave a salvation invitation that were both pretty LS sounding. De Young said, “you must accept Christ as you Lord and Savior, and you must pray and ask him to come into your life.”
    Ancherberg agreed and also said something like, you need to come into His service.

  78. Hey Phil R. — did you go above to where Mary posted what J.R. Church wrote? If I understood her correctly, what was posted is total lose your salvation. Correct me if I’m wrong, but look above to see. Not only that, many times people on those types of channels don’t make their questionable doctrine known, they want to sell books and don’t want to make enemies.

  79. Hi Mary,

    A Christian friend of mine in his late seventies recently told me that he wished he had spent less time reading the words of scholarly men and more time in the Word of God. He once had a massive library. Now he just reads the bible.

    I took this advice and have pretty much kept to reading just the Bible. I find I am enjoying it more and more and my eyes are noticing passages which escaped me before.

    God is so patient with us huh. 🙂

    PS. If it makes you feel any better… I’ve had several Christian friends walk away from me recently. I suspect they’ve been warned by the Clergymen to stay away from potentially unsaved pretenders.

    You’re not alone mate. 😀

  80. Hi Beholdason,
    Its interesting I think we all have heresy libraries somewhere in our homes.
    The thousands of dollars I have spent over the years thinking it was all Christian. I guess they are all learning roads for all of us, its an expensive way to sharpen our discernment.

    Someone once said to me, we are like babies when we start this journey, and we pick up everything on the ground like dirt and grass and put it all in our mouths, we don’t know the difference between good and bad, and thats what I was like as a new babe, I thought everything I read was all from god,

    Boy was I wrong, I watched Benny Hinn, Copeland, Joyce Meyer and even learnt to speak in tongues from Benny Hinns programmes, my husband who was unsaved could see through it, but I couldn’t.

  81. I would be really surprised about JR Church being Arminian? I used to watch “Prophecy in the News” and have a few of their magazines. I never heard him say anything that would contradict free grace.

    One that I know is Arminian is Perry Stone who hosts the show, “Manifest”. He is with Church of God, Cleveland, TN. which is holiness movement and very much Arminian.(probationary salvation)

  82. Hi Holly,
    This was a book Ryrie and Hodges wrote called Lordship salvation vs non lordship its a pdf that you can download, exposing John MacArthur, I used to watch J.R.Church with Gary Stearman, with all the Prophecy updates, when I was not aware that there were all these false gospels around, I just assumed we were all on the same page, like the majority out there do.

  83. Very good link john on the “Just in Case” article. I think a lot of us, including myself, have been run through this gauntlet of “you gotta do or say this or that.” It’s just not good enough with these LS teachers to simply receive the gift of salvation by faith, they will insist on something more from the believer. In the article I can see all three forms of legalism: gate keepers, fruit inspectors, and saving faith inspectors.

  84. I went back the other day and listened to two sermons from my old religious social club’s Heresy file. You know, just to give them the benefit of the doubt and to remind myself that I’m not crazy.

    Matthew 5:20 “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven”.

    Heretic # 1 interpreted this to mean that a REAL Christian’s external behaviour WILL exceed the righteous behaviour of the scribes and Pharisees!

    *face palm*

    No different that those who suggest that the rich young ruler just might have come to salvation if he had taken Jesus’ advice and give all his possessions to St Vincent De Paul.

    Ugh.

    What I noticed in both sermons was this:

    Neither used John’s Gospel to share the simple gospel of eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ.

    I have a sneaking suspicion that all LSers/Calvinists/Arminianists secretly HATE John’s Gospel.

  85. Mary, was it Ryrie or Church that said that? I didn’t know J.R. Church was an Arminian, but heaven forbid they should sin in a thought when someone shoots them and the contract isn’t renewed because they die….

    These people do not understand that the free gift is Eternal life, not temporary, probational, some day in the future Eternal life. It’s a gift He gives, and it is unconditional. If they understood the covenants that God made with mankind, they’d be able to understand the promises were unconditional, and based on Him swearing by Himself. We might suffer consequences for walking in the flesh like Demas, but how do you become a child, not a child, become a child, not a child HOW many times a day? I’d liken them to Hinduism, one striving to be an Avatar (like a god) afraid to do anything that might make them sin, they even have others wash them, feed them, etc, so they can concentrate on being in a sinless state, very sad.

  86. Phil, you bring up an excellent point.

    The question is, why do they wrongly divide the word? And, in wrongly dividing the word, are they frustrating grace for others? For themselves?

    1 Corinthians 2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    We ran an article back in 2012 entitled “Justified by Jesus Christ or Justin Case?” It is linked below:

    https://expreacherman.com/2012/07/06/justified-by-jesus-christ-or-by-justin-case/

  87. If I may, having been around legalists in my past, I think part of the legalists problem, whether they are Calvinists, Arminians, LS or whatever, is that they do not rightly divide the word. They don’t separate what is under the law an what is under grace alone. To them a Christian must keep the law and 10 commandments. They don’t see the distinction that Paul makes clear in Galatians and his other Letters; that Christ fulfilled the law for us; ALL of the law of Moses. That we believers are now lead by the Spirit with God’s laws written on our hearts (2 Cor 3.) They will point to Galatians and other Letters and say, “Paul was only speaking of the ceremonial laws and dietary laws and not the 10 commandments. WRONG. When Paul says we are no longer under the law he means all of it. So like the legalists in Galatians, today’s legalists are saying that the good news of salvation must also also include keeping the commandments. What the legalists, LS or otherwise, try to do is co-mingle the law and grace making us think they are giving us the whole council of God, and in doing so put us under the bondage of the law instead of setting us free with the true gospel of good news. ( BG and JM are examples of this)
    I think too that some of them, whether they will admit it or not, just won’t take that step of faith and believe that Christ did it all and paid it all, and know they are eternally secure for Heaven that cannot be changed.
    It’s more in their comfort zone and acceptable with their peers to carry their resume’ of good works to go with their faith in Christ.

  88. Thanks,I thank god for sites like these, in these difficult and confusing times that we live in, I wish it wasn’t this complicated but it is. Lord gives the courage and discernment to stand on your uncompromising truth.

  89. Mary, I think about it this way: John 3:16 is remarkably straightforward and simple.

    The false religions using the name of Christianity each find some way to deny John 3:16.

    Calvinism – denies “whosoever.”

    Lordship “salvation” – denies that belief in Christ ALWAYS results in someone receiving eternal life. They think that belief must be accompanied by some ill-defined life change, or it never really happened.

    Arminianism – denies eternal life.

    I know what you mean about coming under attack. Just remember, the attacks are not coming from God.

  90. Its interesting you say its heresy, if you claim you can lose your salvation. So we can quite confidently say Calvanism, Arminianism and lordship are all heresies, they turn it around and say we are the heretics, this is where i have come under such attack with it this week, as they leave you feeling like your the devil.

    Its getting so hard to stand firm on this truth, as everyone around us is lordship, calvnist and arminianist. Most of my family are Arminians, thats why we cannont have fellowship with them, we are so not on the same page.

    The frightening things is, and I’m sure we can all relate to this I have friends and family who have died under these heresies and most people think, oh they were so religious, that they conclude that they are in heaven, frightening to think not so.

    God Bless

  91. Mary, yes – there are many people going by the name “Christian” who believe that one can lose his salvation due to sin. It is not possible that one who has received eternal life could ever lose it. Eternal security is the gospel.

    I can’t answer why there are so many people who claim to believe the Bible is the Word of God, but do not believe the gospel.

    Notice the man’s use of the word “contract.”

    He said: When we break our contract with Him by sin, we are as devoid of eternal life as a house is devoid of light when it is cut loose from the power line.

    My comment: Eternal life is not a contract. Eternal life is a gift.

    Ephesians 2:8-9:

    [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.Following is a great quote from Clear Gospel on this matter:

    Following is a good quote from Clear Gospel on the heretical teaching that one can lose his salvation due to sin:

    We further reject as incompatible with saving faith in Jesus Christ the belief that one can lose their salvation through sin. We believe that this is heresy is logically incompatible with the fact that Jesus Christ paid in full the penalty for our sins at the cross. We further affirm that such belief demonstrates a total lack of understanding that sin was paid for at Calvary, and that an exercise of faith in Christ that is stained by this heresy is dishonoring to the Son, and a denial of what he accomplished at Calvary. Accordingly, we believe that a true saving faith the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not evidenced in a profession of faith tainted by this heresy.

    The Bible is very clear regarding the doctrine of eternal security.

    John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Ephesians 1:13-14:

    [13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    [14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    See Tom Cucuzza’s booklet “The Permanence of Salvation”, linked below:

    https://expreacherman.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/cucuzza-the-permanence-of-salvation.pdf

  92. Hi Johnnic,
    This is from Ryries book, that so disturbed me the other day, he put a comment in their from J.R. Church, who has since deceased. J.R. is writing against the free grace position. Have a look at what he says about our position.

  93. Church comments:
    “Now I am aware of the fact that there is a great group of people abroad in the
    land, who are preaching a shallow, cheap, and unscriptural security; a security that
    is not only unscriptural but it is one of the most dangerous doctrines that could
    possibly be preached by anyone.
    “The people to whom I refer are those who preach and teach that, if a person is
    once really born of the Spirit of God and becomes a child of God, it is impossible for
    him ever to fall from grace and be lost. They teach that after a person has once been
    born again, no matter what sins that person may commit he cannot possibly be lost,
    for he is God’s child and can never become anything else.”
    “…In fact, in every place where it speaks of people who have eternal life, we are
    told that it is on the condition of constantly believing on Christ, for that is what the
    word ‘believeth’ means. It is in the present tense. That means that it is not a thing
    that is done once and for all and is never to be repeated, but rather it is a continuous
    29

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    act that must be constantly going on. When we cease to believe we cease to have
    eternal life abiding in us. In fact, there can be no eternal life separate and apart
    from Christ. He is the life. When we break our contract with Him by sin, we are as
    devoid of eternal life as a house is devoid of light when it is cut loose from the power
    line. To be dead spiritually is to be cut off from Christ, and sin will surely break the
    contact with life. It will do it today just as surely as it did with Eve, and to teach
    otherwise is but to revive the doctrine that Satan put forth in the Garden when he
    said, ‘Ye shall not surely die’.
    “Not only does our Lord Jesus Christ deny and refute this dangerous doctrine of
    unconditional security, but Paul, Peter, James, and John also deny it time after time.
    All through the New Testament we find warning and exhortations urging us to
    beware lest we fall away.
    “Our good friends who teach unconditional security like to quote the words of
    the great Apostle Paul in Romans 8:1. He speaks of there being no condemnation to
    them that are in Christ Jesus, and they try to make it appear that once a person is in
    Jesus Christ he can never come into condemnation again. However, they fail to
    quote that part of the verse which says, ‘Who walk not after the flesh, but after the
    Spirit.’ They leave that out, for it does not fit in with their doctrine. It clearly implies
    that the condition of remaining in a state of not being condemned is to walk not
    after the flesh, but after the Spirit. This same thing is reaffirmed in the 4th verse.
    They also fail to note that he says in the 12th and 13th verses of this same chapter,
    ‘therefore, brethren, (that means Christians) we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live
    after the flesh. For if ye (brethren or Christians) live after the flesh, ye shall die.’
    (Paul refuses to go along with those who would say, ‘Ye shall not surely die.’)”
    “Now, I am frank to confess that I don’t see how any person who claims to accept
    the Bible as the Word of God can, in the face of these plain statements from His
    Word, and many others that might be given, teach unconditional security, and claim
    that it is impossible for a person to fall from grace and be lost.” (Referenced
    scriptures for support of Church’s comments are on pages 19, 20, and 21).
    “…We have the privilege of coming into the family of God, and we have the
    power to take ourselves out again.”
    “While I cannot accept the kind of security that some people teach, I do want to
    say I believe with all my heart that the Bible does teach that there is security for the
    child of God in Christ…
    ‘HE THAT IS IN THE WORLD’—THE POWER OF SIN AND
    SATAN
    ‘Greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.’
    “In this beautiful text, John gives to us the assurance that there is adequate
    power for a life of constant victory, and that we may live the life of an overcomer by
    the power of Christ in us. These are the words of a man who not only spoke by
    divine inspiration, but also spoke out of his own glorious experience. When John
    wrote this glowing testimony, he was an old man and had tried and proven it to be a
    fact. He had met the enemy on many a battlefield and had come out more than
    conqueror by the power of the indwelling Christ. He assures us that this same power
    30

    Page 31 of 59
    is at our disposal. Surely this ought to encourage our hearts and give us faith to
    endure unto the end.”
    Church interprets the testimony of scripture to require continuing in
    faith to be secure, and further, Church maintains that by not continuing in
    faith, which is as much an individual choice as beginning in faith, a person
    can and will lose their salvation. And, by such turning from God in unbelief
    one turns to “walking after the flesh”, and thereby ceases to be “kept by the
    indwelling Christ”. He does point out that such loss of salvation does not
    result from “failure through weakness or lack of knowledge”, but rather, by
    a “deliberate turning away from God into sin”.
    MacArthur also interprets scripture to require a continuing in faith to
    be secure, however, MacArthur maintains that continuing in faith is
    inevitable because faith is a “sovereignly granted gift of God” and does not
    depend on a person’s willingness to so continue. To interpret scripture to
    allow an individual the prerogative of continuing or not continuing in faith
    would fatally undermine the “Lordship” concept that at the time of “new
    birth” one has a secured inheritance in the kingdom of God and of Christ.
    Ryrie and Hodges would agree with Church concerning the concept that a
    child of God can, by choice, not continue in faith, but they disagree with
    Church that continued unfaithfulness removes such a person from their
    secure position in Christ. For to interpret scripture, as do MacArthur and
    Church, to require faithfulness would fatally undermine the “Non- Lordship” concept that at the time of “new birth” one has, by that initial act
    of faith, a secured inheritance in the kingdom of God and of Christ.
    The preceding consideration details less than all of the points where
    there are differences in interpretation of scripture within the
    “evangelical Christian community”. Some of these topics are identified, but not
    explained, in the first full paragraph on page 16 of this paper. There have been books
    written to explain these and other such topics.
    WHY ARE THERE DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OF THE
    HOLY SCRIPTURES BY MEN WHO HAVE CREDENTIALS IN
    THEOLOGY? AND MORE PARTICULARLY, BY MEN WHO
    EXPRESSLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY AGREE THAT THESE
    SCRIPTURES ARE THE “INSPIRED” AND “INFALLIBLE” WORD
    OF GOD?

  94. Just so everyone knows—–i am good to go.

    Thanks Bruce and John.

  95. Preston, I sent Bruce a note.

  96. Does Bruce still come by? can you “privately” send him my email?

  97. Preston, maybe Bruce Bauer (former ExP admin who has been fairly widely-published in terms of articles), Michael Bowen (wrote a short book) or Ron Shea (who has published “The Gospel” booklet in several languages) might have some ideas.

  98. Good day,

    I need help. I was thinking about all these places that could help me and it did not occur to me until today that maybe I should come here.

    long story short–

    I discuss the bible all the time, with whomever, whenever and wherever. A couple of month ago, I was helping a person on-line figure out passages they thought meant one could lose their salvation. After helping him, he made a statement, “you should write a book”. At first, I laughed inside, “me, write a book. Who would buy it”. Later I thought, “why not, if God wants to use a book from a sinner and writer like me, He is God and can use it”.

    I had already written several short papers prior to this so I only needed to write a few more. It didn’t take too long. The rough draft is complete.

    So I contacted a local publisher twice who has never called me back. Either, it is not a big enough project for them OR they don’t like Jesus books.

    I dont plan on profiting ONE penny from the book at all.

    Can someone HERE at expreacherman help me? Has anyone EVER published a small book (only 23 short-medium chapters)? Does anyone know a small publisher that will help?

    I know this isnt on topic; my apologies. BUT figured, with all the people that come by here, maybe ONE can help me.

    Thanks much.

  99. Phil, yes – some consider Strong’s and/or Vine’s to be sacrosanct. I don’t.

  100. I agree about the KJV. Also be wary in using Vine’s and Strong’s in their rendering of the Greek, “repent”. They will go beyond the literal definition to its usages. So what ends up is usage being the the same as the definition to the legalistic LSers. To repent, which simply means a change of mind, ends up meaning “to turn from sin or forsake sin” to the LSers.

  101. William, a perfect summary of the LSers false gospel! > as well as the scripture verses you used are ‘sharper than any two-edged sword’ & ‘rightly divided’. Thank you.

  102. Johninnc I started on the NLT as it was the first Bible I ever brought, that was over 11 years ago I was 52 years old at that time. I went through a lot of confusion as the church I was in wasnt clear on the Gospel.I dont want anyone to be as screwed up as I was, I had no assurance of salvation.What a terrible way to live.It takes a lot of study to get straightened out after your taught wrong thats why I come to this blog.Also why I prefer the KJV its clear and the Bible stays in harmony if taken dispensationally.

  103. Sam, the NLT (New Lordship Translation) is the worst.

  104. to Jan Kotlarski thanks that is some good information.Its too bad we have to defend a simple word like should but I guess that’s what its come down to with all these new translations.I think the Kjv is for me but some people just don’t like it, but I think some of these new translations are changing the meaning of some important doctrines.Take the NLT they say turn from sin in place of repent I would say that is terrible error.But anyway I thanks I will remember that if Im ever confronted with that again.

  105. William, I agree completely. LSers think that, even though they are not sinless, that since they are either sinning less than they used to (based on their definition or rule set), or “moving in the right direction”, or “trying”, or “God knows that they are trying”, that means they are doing their part.

    So, they will insist that these things are essential components of verifying that one is saved. The trouble is, that “trying” is a work.

  106. Alan, I agree. LSers view “trust”, “faith”, “believe” and everything else as a synonym for works (or at least to include works).

    I also agree about the “head faith” vs. “heart faith”

  107. Does anyone know how Jack is doing? I’m still praying for this dear brother.

  108. Lordship Salvation people are ridiculous! The Bible says if you offend one part of the law you break it all. If you would keep one part of the law you must keep the whole law.

    Then, after they claim to be saved, they start looking at the law to prove they are saved, despite the fact the Bible says those who are saved are no longer under the law.

    Salvation is not by the law! If you can’t be saved by the law, you can’t keep saved by the law.

    Now if you are perfect and keep the law you don’t need grace.

    But us sinners will depend completely on Christ.

    James 2:10 – For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    Romans 10:4 – For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    Galatians 5:4 – You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

  109. Jan, thank you for sharing that, very helpful!

  110. John, LSers view trust as more of a synonym for works instead of a synonym for believe. They also like to make a false distinction between believing with the heart and believing with the mind (“head faith”).

  111. Alan, I agree with most of what you said, but we do not believe “trust” is a synonym for works.

    Ephesians 2:12-14:

    [12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    [13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    [14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    However, many LSers imbed works in the concept of trusting in Christ, in that they insist that one must trust that Christ will change his life in order to receive eternal life.

  112. Hello everyone. I am really puzzled over the Australian “minister’s” use of the abbreviation “etc”. Why didn’t he just do what most LSers do and string together a long list of synonyms for works, such as commitment, dedication, devotion, surrender, submission, perseverance, etc. Of course, as he defines it repentance would also be a work.
    I also thought it was strange that he spoke of a “false salvation” rather than a false gospel. He couldn’t find anything wrong with the Gospel you present, so this was his way of implying that it takes more than believing the true Gospel to be saved. As LSers are fond of saying, you must also “trust” (another LS synonym for works).

  113. Jan Kotlarski

    @ manu: Actually, the should in the KJV is correct and it really means should.
    I know, because the Dutch Statenvertaling and the German Lutherbibel also have the word should in their own respective languages and those are also good word for word bible translations from the reformation age and they have been tried and tested as well for hundreds of years.
    And the updates in better current words, like for the KJV has them using “zouden” in the Statenvertaling and “sollen” in the Lutherbibel in Ephesians 2:10, equivalent words to “should” in the KJV.

  114. I am praying with you three that this pastor will have ears to hear, and if not as this moment, in the right time.

  115. That is a good idea John. I am praying for him too Sam. God’s truth can reach through to Him in time.

    Jim F

  116. Sam, I have prayed that you will have another opportunity to meet with this pastor and that he would be open to the truth of God’s Word.

  117. Sam, I have prayed that you will have another opportunity to meet with this pastor and that he would be open to the truth of God’s Word.

  118. Johninnc this pastor told me he was going to be checking the kjv more often than he had been after our last meeting but I havent heard a word from him after giving him 3 Bible tracts and a cd on how permanent is your salvation from by Hank Lindstrom also gave him a print out of some guestions to ask a lordship salvationist by Charles Bing.But he was happy to accept them. Ive been praying for him and told him we should meet again(met 3 times now twice while I was in the church and once after) its been close to 3 months now so hope is fading fast.

  119. Sam, my wife asked an LSer to show her anywhere in the Bible (KJV) where it said one must repent of his sins to be saved.

    The response was something like: “Why the KJV?” And, later: “I don’t have a KJV Bible.”

    My wife suggested that he try looking it up on the internet.

    That discussion was the inspiration behind the article “Lordship Salvation: How U (1/2) 2 Fans Reject Christ.” See link below:

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/11/16/lordship-salvation-how-u-12-2-fans-reject-christ/

  120. Jimfloyd he actually said this would change many things he was taught in seminary.I think Rom 11:6 really sunk him on works and on John the baptist repentence we looked at John 3:36 and acts 19:4 and he stated he hadnt noticed that before.I have also talked to others in that church and none of them have a biblical response.I had one person (family member) ask me if they could show me that I was wrong on the Gospel would I change my mind.I said of course if it comes from the Bible..(still waiting)

  121. What a sad sad situation.

    Holly wrote, “How about naming the site, so we know to mark and avoid?”

    I have MANY friends in Adelaide. I would appreciate a name and shame so I can warn them to AVOID like the plague.

    Regarding Romans 5.

    I was reading this the other day and it was so wonderful.

    Buzz words/phrases:

    GIFT – FREE GIFT – GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS

    Then we hit Romans 6:1.

    “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?”

    If Paul was a L’ser/Calvinist, what a waste of breath that would have been.
    Given that believers won’t continue in sin, that is, is they’re REALLY saved.*

    *(sarcasm intended)

    *face palm*

  122. Sam,

    Pastors like the one you mentioned are operating from a totally different outlook and theological viewpoint. Many of them pick it up in college or seminary and have real difficulty ever letting go of it. The Word is powerful however and can overcome any deception.

    Jim F

  123. Holly I did go to Rom 6:23 when he said that the gift was faith.We had a long conversation and he has no answers.I really think he is in a bad spot as he could see clearly from a word for word translation (Kjv) that he was incorrect on many verses including James 2. I have learned so much here I figure when I run into a problem I can come here and get a sound answer

  124. I think should just means should whats so difficult about that.I dont need an expert for that word.

  125. Sam – if that pastor believes that Eph 2:8-9 speaks of the gift being salvation, he likely doesn’t understand the grammar, nor the witness of other Scriptures. As Johninnc said, Rom 6:23 clearly identifies the gift as eternal life.

    Romans 5, never speaks of the free gift as faith, but as justification unto life, and righteousness, which is ours when we receive eternal life. In Acts we are told the Gentiles were given the gift of the Holy Spirit (which all believers are). Only other place a gift is spoken of regarding faith is those who are already believers, some are given the gift of faith. Nowhere does it say we are given the gift of faith in order to be saved.

  126. Manu – knowledge of Middle English isn’t so important as if you question the translation, the lexicons are available and older than the Oxford dictionary.

    Over and over in His Word, believers are exhorted, chastised, even expelled from fellowship, some die physically or are sick, for lack of good works, and for the presence of serious sin in their lives. Each epistle has exhortations to believers in areas they are lacking, so if it was automatic, those would be wasted words, and God’s Word is useful for everything.

    You lol over a use of a translation? Are you being kind and tenderhearted? Soberminded? or mocking?

    If we have something to say, let’s use the Word of God and answer there, best way. Thank you Johninnc for always answering with the Word.

    Why do they need exhorted to show a pattern of good works? Because they are capable of not doing good works (see James 2) capable of being bad examples, able to use unsound speech, or have a lack of gravity and sincerity. We are able to be unfruitful.

    This is why we have the epistles, to teach us, sanctify us, grow us in His grace, guide and direct us, counsel us, give us wisdom and understanding, give us discernment between good and evil when we are in the strong meat of His Word. This is not automatic.

    Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you. Titus 2:6-8

    And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful. Titus 3:14

    And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 2 Pet 1:5-9

  127. Manu, see previous response.

  128. Here is just a simple comment from dictionary.reference.com:

    “Should” has, as its most common meaning in modern English, the sense “ought” as in “I should go to the graduation, but I don’t see how I can.” However, the older sense of the subjunctive of “shall” is often used with “I” or “we” to indicate a more polite form than “would”: “I should like to go, but I can’t.”

    For a more detailed discution, you can consult the all-knowledgable Oxford English Dictionary.

  129. Manu, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    How many good works are required? What kind? How would one know when he has done enough?

    Titus 3:8: This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    Why would we need to be careful to maintain good works if they were automatic?

  130. QUOTE:

    “Ephesians 2:10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    [..] Notice that it says SHOULD. […] It’s not that we must. […] It’s should.”

    LOL. This is what happens when you use a translation that is 400 years old. Read old English literature, and you will see that the word “should” was being used in a different sense than it is being used today. The phrase “that we should walk […]” 400 years ago meant “in order for us to walk […]” or something along those lines.

  131. Sam, the NIV verses you cited only help reinforce the pre-existing belief in salvation by works that many people hold.

    I would think that Romans 6:23 would eliminate any confusion regarding what the gift of God is.

  132. I had a discussion with a pastor that was using Eph 2;10 to show me that Paul agrees with James 2 that works are required for salvation.(which is outrageous when Paul says in Eph 2;9 its not of works)but anyway he was reading the niv which says (For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.) no should in there like in the king james. So then I took him to titus 2;11-12 to show him grace brings salvation and that we again should live righteously (not must) and of course the niv doesn’t use should ( For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,) The niv bible is awful in my opinion. I also explained the James 2 passage and many others from the free grace view and haven’t heard back from him.He also thinks the gift in Eph 2;8 is the faith not salvation.

  133. Praying this ”pastor” or whatever he may be from down under, sees the light and stops corrupting minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    How about naming the site, so we know to mark and avoid?

  134. People out their are claiming we are speaking for the devil, when it is them who are. Satan is so confusing the gospel so people don’t know what to believe. (sad times we are living in)
    Here in Australia, we have terrible bushfires raging in our hills, people are losing their homes and many animals have died. People left their cats and dogs to be looked after and when they have come back from their vacations, they have found out their pets have died. This will bring the communities together and all help each other, but it unfortunately brings all the false faiths together too.

    God Bless

  135. Why is it these people deny their position, Calvanists and especially lordship salvationists. Why do they deny their position and claim we misrepresent them.

  136. This man denies the completed work of Jesus on the cross as well as denying that he clearly believes & teaches the false gospel of Lordship Salvation. Eyes blinded from the truth.

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