Dear Friends of ExP,
We have written about Kyle Idleman and posted information about him at our Wiki-Heresies Page.
We are grateful that our friend, Jim F has written an excellent review of Idleman’s book, “Not A Fan” at his web site. Please visit and read Jim’s review:
Jim F’s – Review of Idleman, Not a Fan << Click
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Thank you, Curtis. Yes, in the past I stayed with a family of mennonites and my experience with them has not left me, in a very negative way. They follow a man called Menno Simmons. I was judged on everything – how i dressed, my tattoos, my self harm she said was crucifying Christ, but its a coping mechanism that I still struggle with. I know that Jesus loves me and I am safe in His mighty hand, and the Father’s hand John 10:28-29. He knows our struggles.
calvanism and most all other Ist’s, Ism’s and Ite’s are all learned from someone else or use authority apart from scripture.
just like mormons, menonites, Amish.
Amish follow the Ordnium .
Menonites are stuck in the red letters.
Calvanist follow calvan..
they all follow a “System of thought”
God is not a system of thought but a live Person . The Word of God is alive and powerfull….. Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword…..
Yes, John, that’s what I meant about Adam. .
Helen, Adam made his own free will decision. Eve didn’t cause it.
Thank you, Jim. Do they really believe that we have no free will to believe? What do they do with scriptures like John 3:16 or 1 John 2:2?
Adam and Eve had free will because God commanded them not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but Eve made the free will decision to disobey God, then caused Adam to also eat of the tree.
Reformed theology or calvinism is like an infection? I can understand why someone would commit suicide, as there is no peace or joy in such condemning teachings of constantly having to examine the flesh for ‘evidence’ of works or faith, but it is horrible to be in such a place of darkness and despair.
Thank you, Keith. Yes, his salvation statement sounded very elitist, but nothing to do with free will. Of course we have free will. Adam and Eve both ate of the tree of knowledge of good and and evil of their own free will. It is rare to find sound bible teachers anymore. Thank you Holy Spirit for your discernment.
What you quoted is Reformed theology concerning salvation. You might also hear those things from “five point” calvinists.
Sadly, many have committed suicide thinking they have no hope in that calvinistic rut.
“God elects a man in eternity to be saved”.
God does not elect anyone to be saved. He elects those who choose to believe and are saved to serve Him by fulfilling His redemptive purposes.
Eesh. What a mess . . .
VERY Calvinistic if you ask me.
Helen, agree that he sounds Calvinistic.
Pasted from K B Napier’s website, Christine Doctrine or Bible Theology Ministries. Seems calvinistic to me.
The Biblical Pathway to Heaven. Salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
God elects a man in eternity to be saved. This sets in motion an historical process that cannot be changed.
A man thus elected by God WILL be saved at some time in his lifetime.
When God prompts him He begins by making him ‘born again’. This is when his dead spirit is made alive, so he can recognise, and respond to, God through the Holy Spirit.
Once he is born again, the man will undergo remarkable differences, and he at last responds to the things of God.
Then at some point he recognises his sin, repents, and may (some do not, because it is implied) ask God to come into his life.
At that precise point he is saved on this earth, completing God’s election.
After this he ‘works out’ his salvation in godliness until he dies.
Then, he will be resurrected with a new body fit for Heaven immediately before the Judgment, and he will finally take his rest in Heaven, the whole process coming to its proper conclusion.
Helen, you are right that works for salvation is everywhere.
I am not familiar with KB Napier. Mental illnesses are varied, as are their causes and prognoses. Some may involve an element of sin, others may not. It is beyond the scope and expertise of the ExPreacherman ministry to diagnose amd sort all of them out.
In any event, God’s will is clearly not that anyone be despondent or suicidal.
Keep going, Jason, contending for the faith. Works for salvation is everywhere. The gospel of grace can rarely be found on Church websites. Most churches hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith, which is just reformed theology.
Has anyone heard of K B Napier of christiandoctrine.com. I’ve read through his beliefs, and while he says that grace is what saves us, he’s then saying that the fruits of a person’s life is how they live. I wanted to comment on his article on Borderline Personality Disorder, but he’s stopped the comments. A struggling Christian could easily commit suicide after reading his condemning article. He is very harsh on mental illness, calls it all sin.
Have a blessed day everyone.
Wilkinism, Rukkkmanism, Andirstonism, Neeism, Princism. Some of these groups are even connected with the NAR. The “Cult” is connected with LS.. These denominations that are almost free grace but not quite, really bother me. I am saddened when friends tell me that I am being narrow minded about these things.
I agree with John and Curtis. I wrote also about Joseph Prince a while back. Yes, he does add in works along with other issues.
Cody a good friend in Christ challenged me with the following ..,
“Good Bible study comes down more to diligence in comparing scriptures with scriptures and resting in the Lord than through intelligence. The way I see it is that if someone is going to say something that significant then they had better have ample verses to back it up. When you don’t then it is a good sign you are probably messing something up with human “logic”.
Cody, Joseph Prince teaches that physical healing is part of the atonement and makes it sound as if good works are an automatic byproduct of someone receiving eternal life.
We don’t teach either one of those things.
The false teaching that good works automatically flow from faith in Christ leads to fruit inspection.
See link to previous comments on Joseph Prince below.
“sneaking in works salvation in some way”
you answered your own question
Hey brothers and sisters in Christ! Just had a quick question. What are y’all a thoughts on Joseph Prince?? I know he is in the word of faith camp which is false doctrine, but it seems that he preaches a grace message. Am I wrong? Just not sure if he is sneaking in works salvation in some way
And, LS is pervasive in professing Christendom.
Jim, thanks for responding.
Here is what his errors boil down to. Please see the quote: “They ordered a gospel that cost them nothing and offered them everything. So in case someone left it out or forgot to mention it when they explained what it meant to be a Christian, let me be clear: There is no forgiveness without repentance. There is no salvation without surrender. There is no life without death. There is no believing without committing.”(p. 35)
(This in a nutshell is the crux of the whole issue. Contributing anything to your salvation i.e. surrender, turning from sins, dying to self, making commitments, counting the cost of discipleship, etc. is to add to the condition of receiving salvation by grace through faith. Eternal salvation is only granted to those who believe with simple child like faith in Christ based on the gospel. (John 3:16) To misunderstand that the Gospel cost Christ dearly but us nothing is to totally misunderstand it altogether. That is exactly why the “lordship” gospel is so dangerous.)
Here is the current statement on how to receive salvation on Idleman’s Church website. It is still false.
“That one receives salvation by putting faith in Christ, repenting of sin, and confessing Christ, and that the Bible commands every believer in Christ to be baptized by immersion.”
I read (painfully) his whole book when I did my review. It was full of false statements as illustrated. Why look to that book or person for Bible teaching?
Gwen, maybe you should go to the church website and find the statement of faith. Look for the gospel. Shouldn’t it be easy for people to find? Wouldn’t you think people should be open, transparent and first and foremost highlight the gospel for anyone who comes?
Kyle Idleman preaches a discipleship gospel. I think believers ‘should’ do good things, the Scripture is clear. But good works can’t be part of the receipt of eternal life, nor part of the preservation of it. I pray (humbly speaking) you will get your discernment from His Word (Heb 5:12-14) instead of just trusting you have it. And really contrast what is taught by being noble (Acts 17:11). In Christ, Holly
Curtis, you are right that Kyle Idleman teaches a false gospel and that Christians can, and do make choices that are either according to God’s will or not. But, none of those choices have any bearing on a person’s eternal life, which is received the moment one believes in Jesus as Savior.
I stand by my comments ,, Kyle Idleman and elders have not repented of their heretical teachings . They are abusing water baptism among others and the free gift of eternal life.
I am saved from the lake of fire because i have no sins to pay for.. Because Jesus paid for my sins passed present and future. I can not go to the lake of fire because i have no sins to pay for.
I now have a choice to surrender my life to christ Jesus and I want to please the Lord because I want to .
Present myself a living sacrifice romans 12:1-2 or bow to lesser gods .
sure a Justified soul can choose to live as they please . But God gets to choose the consequences. its discipline or chasening . I want to Please God because i want the best.
At least pick one either be cold or hot for Jesus don’t try to mess around in the middle that makes Jesus sick
fryingpan, that is very good advice!
If any interpretation upholds the following three clear tenets of scripture, it might be correct:
1. That eternal life is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone
2. That eternal life can never be lost or forfeited
3. That one can have assurance of eternal life based solely on God’s promise
If an interpretation or teaching fails to meet any of the above, it cannot be true.
Whenever we have our confirmation bias challenged, we should start with, “Does this line up with the gospel?” and not, “Can I justify why I think or believe this based on what I’ve read, seen, heard, or experienced?”
Unfortunately the vast majority of professing Christendom seems to have a hard time discerning the difference between MUST and SHOULD.
Gwen, thanks for stopping by.
Kyle Idleman does indeed teach false doctrine that undermines the gospel.
Your comment illustrates quite well the confusion that Idleman is teaching.
You said: What I took away from the video series is that people who believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour cannot sit back on their laurels and live their lives as though nothing has changed. Jesus Christ demands that if we call him Lord, that we surrender each part of our lives to Him. Yes, it may be a gradual process, but that is what happens-we are transformed into the likeness of Christ.
My comment: Your statement is self-contradictory. If Christians are transformed into the likeness of Christ, then why couldn’t they “sit back on their laurels”? After all, even if one does “sit back on his laurels,” wouldn’t the transformation happen anyway? Nowhere does the Bible teach that Christians are automatically transformed into the likeness of Christ.
Does the Bible teach that one must see this transformation begin to occur before he can have assurance of eternal life?
John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
According to John 5:24, one can have assurance of eternal life without waiting for any evidence of transformation.
Also, how must one live his life in order to keep, or to to demonstrate that he has eternal life? You concede that “it may be a gradual process,” so how gradual is still OK?
The Bible does not say that surrendering ANY part of our lives to Christ is necessary in order to receive eternal life.
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Is there any mention of surrender there?
In fact, the Bible clearly teaches that eternal life is a free gift, without cost or obligation to us as recipients:
Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
How could eternal life be a gift if it required that we surrender each part of our lives to Him in return? That sounds more like a trade.
Gwen, what you “took away from the video series” is the false doctrine that Idleman teaches.
I would recommend that you quit listening to men like Idleman and listen to what God says about how to have eternal life.
If you would like a good explanation, please carefully read the booklet linked below:
Click to access English-Display-Pkg-2014.pdf
I have read through a lot of the comments on this page and am amazed at how so many of the commenters have arrived at the conclusion that Kyle Idleman is promoting a false gospel. I am a Christian and have watched the video series in our home Bible study. Never did I believe for a minute that Kyle was promoting false ideas and I am quite discerning when it comes to truth. I think that those who comment on his book or video series need to look at the whole and not piecemeal his teachings which is what seems to happen in the comments. Moreover, as one commenter mentioned, Kyle has made changes in his church to ensure that the teaching is biblical and evangelical. What I took away from the video series is that people who believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour cannot sit back on their laurels and live their lives as though nothing has changed. Jesus Christ demands that if we call him Lord, that we surrender each part of our lives to Him. Yes, it may be a gradual process, but that is what happens-we are transformed into the likeness of Christ. I am sorry that many of you misunderstand Kyle’s words and spend too much time demonstrating how he contradicts or twists the biblical teaching.
John 6:47, yeah – that book is popular in all kinds of churches. It is really sad how something so errant and damaging catches on.
Not a Fan seems like it’s one of the main loadship “bibles” that LP (Loadship Probation) teachers quote from to prove their accursed gospel. Back when I used to believe in LP before I trusted Christ as Savior, I would often use the same lingo to describe what I believed (though THANK GOD I never had the guts to evangelize when I was under that satanic heresy). Sad day when pastors/churches/teachers forsake the Word of God and follow after manmade books, especially when said books corrupt the Gospel.
Pam, when we believe on Him, we receive Him and become sons of God. As we continue in His Word (Jn 8:31-32), believers are enabled to be set free by that truth and become disciples. Our heart isn’t changed, it is still flesh.
Where does the Bible say that?
We are made a new creation, our old man is still with us, but the new creation doesn’t sin at all (2 Cor 5:17; 1 Jn 3:9). Yet Paul in Romans 7 said he practiced (prasso) sin, and that evil was still present in him. But he was looking forward to the day he’d be delivered from his body (flesh and blood won’t inherit the kingdom). But our hearts are still flesh and blood, and wicked (Jer 17:9) and we still need to ask the Lord to search our heart for any wicked way in us (Ps 139), because we will still have this evil present within us till we die.
Studying His Word with His approval in mind is what we should do (2 Tim 2:15). Nowhere do I see encouragement to read men’s books that don’t even rightly divide His Word. I’m all for encouraging believers to be disciples, to grow up into the head which is Christ. But don’t be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.
A little Correction: Believers can be “lukewarm” wishy-washy (see Rev 3) and if they are, they should be rebuked for it. But it should be done with God’s Word, not a book that’s in error and isn’t using ‘butterflies and rainbows’ (code word for he speaks truth?).
I don’t think we should be worried about whether feelings are hurt as long as we’re keeping sound speech that cannot be condemned, and we’re walking in wisdom towards those who are without, redeeming the time. We should keep our speech seasoned with grace and salt.
I prefer to point people to Christ and His Word and am thankful for men and women who contend earnestly for the faith once delivered even as others defend errant men out of not being Bereans and checking to see if their favorite books align with God’s powerful Word.
Pam, thanks for dropping by.
Christians should wish to learn more about God’s word through study, and they should desire to please Him.
But, neither of these are conditions for receiving the free gift of eternal life, nor for establishing that one has received the free gift of eternal life.
Idleman falsely conflates what God’s will is for believers with requirements for eternal life.
Not all Christians live their lives according to God’s will, and no Christian does so perfectly. So, what is the cutoff point? Idleman can’t answer that and neither can anyone else. The reason why is because how we live our lives has no bearing on whether or not we go to Heaven.
We you accept Jesus as your Saviour you accept grace…with a true belief in Gods word your changed heart desires to know Him (studying is the only way to know him and what He desires for you) a desire to please him (much like wanting to please a parent with following their request) and you cannot be “lukewarm” wishy-washy…if you accept Him your heart changes.
Not a Fan places an emphasis on the change of heart and does not spend time with butterflies and rainbows to ensure he doesn’t hurt feelings for those who seem to want to be Christians yet suffer no struggle with internal conflict when not living according to God’s will.
I myself would be confused and troubled as well listening to the preachers you mentioned for they teach works for salvation or works because of salvation to prove ones salvation.
below from Alliance church Statement of faith “repent and believe” the bible does not teach repent and believe , The bible teaches in gospel of John over and over “Believe” .
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
God designed salvation to be so simple a child can understand nothing is easier. A child uses Faith the same as believing even calling a person mommy or daddy . It takes Faith to do that.
The only way God can guarantee Eternal Life as a Free Gift is because salvation excludes us it is based on What Jesus has done . The object of Faith to receive the free gift of eternal Life is Christ Jesus apart for Works
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
In my experience with an Alliance church pastor in my area its not enough to simply believe. Another area Alliance church is in error is “centering prayer” or “contemplative prayer” or what ever they are calling it these days That’s why pastor would embrace kyle idelmans “church of God” book not a fan.
not a fan also teaches mystical prayer and mysticism.
Warning in quotes is false doctrine from Alliance Church website SOF:
Salvation has been provided through Jesus Christ for all men; and those who repent and believe in Him are born again of the Holy Spirit, receive the gift of eternal life, and become the children of God.21
Alliance Church is a member of the Christian & Missionary Alliance denomination and the above Statement of Faith is the same as all other C&MA churches.””
Here is a link to a sermon that has helped me break free from legalism
Pastor-teacher Rokser teachings verse-by-verse in Romans 7-8 and explains how to live the Christian life by grace to avoid the common struggles of legalism.
Silvana, welcome and thanks for your comment.
Kyke Idleman should be avoided, as Jim Floyd has documented in the article that you referenced.
I would recommend avoiding the other pastors you mentioned as well.
Please see links below to a couple of resources that I think can help clear up any confusion you might have:
Click to access English-Display-Pkg-2014.pdf
Click to access how-to-be-sure-you-are-going-to-heaven-with-cover.pdf
I grew up in the Catholic Faith. Since 2005,I have joined an Alliance Church. I listen to John MacArthur,Dr.David Jeremiah and Dr. Charles Stanley. I am confused. When I read The Bible and then listen to our pastor at church or one of the above mentioned pastors.
I have tried my best to walk by faith since a little girl.
Recently,our church got a new pastor, (one of many)he made the whole church read Idleman’s Not a Fan. I could only read the first three chapters. I started to feel like I’m not going to heaven. I started wondering. I got scared. I don’t know what church to go to anymore? I felt happier when I read the Bible on my own. Thank you for reviewing this book.
David, I pray you might become more interested in defending the gospel than a man or a movement.
David, we are going to have to part ways.
I believe you are foolish to consume material that so directly undermines the gospel message.
2 Corinthians 11:3: But I fear, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
I don’t know about you, johninnc, but I can read a book without becoming everything which is in the book. Kyle is not going to confuse believers. And God takes us as we are, even when we’re a bit confused (as most of us are). If that were not true then neither you nor I would have a chance of being saved. Our righteousness is imputed from Christ.
David, thanks for stopping by.
While Kyle Idleman may be moving people from works-based salvation to “works-light,” he is still frustrating grace.
The problem is that his books are being used far and wide, and can both confuse believers and keep unsaved people from understanding, and thus believing, the gospel.
I believe that salvation is by my faith in Christ’s finished work and that alone. I cannot add to what God provided.
I wish that folk who post things like they post about a man like Kyle Idleman actually knew something about where he is at and what he is accomplishing. My parents were founding members of that church where he is based. The Christian Church of the Restoration Movement (Kyle’s group) are also tied to the Churches of Christ (churches of Christ, they prefer), International Church of Christ, and the Disciples of Christ. The main founders began the group known as the Disciples of Christ in 1832, in Lexington, Kentucky, when the Campbellites – followers of Alexander Campbell – joined with the Stoneites – followers of Barton Stone – and formed the Disciples of Christ. Historically this group and the others to form from this group were those who promoted the idea that salvation is a five step process: Hear, believe, repent, confess, and be water baptized. Kyle’s home church has been migrating toward an Evangelical point-of-view for a number of years now and I believe that he has accomplished a lot toward changing this fellowship away from one with a works emphasis to one with a grace emphasis.
Changes don’t happen overnight. Look at the Book of Acts. Paul did not start his missionary journeys until 17 years after Jesus called him. (That’s in the Book of Galatians.) It took a long time to convert the works-oriented, Judaism-following church at Jerusalem to become one which would accept Paul’s teaching of salvation by faith in Christ alone. They’re still kicking and screaming about it today and there is a rise in Messianic congregations who still reject the fact that Israel became the Church, the Body of Christ, who accepted God’s own provision for salvation and not demand that the law must be imposed on believers. The emphasis of the Book of Hebrews is that the law became obsolete and Jesus Christ is now the Great High Priest and the Mediator of the New Covenant. Leave Kyle alone while he is leading these people and many others away from a former legalistic indoctrination. His church, Southeast Christian, is the largest Restoration Movement church in America with nearly 25,000 members, and they can be influential on many within that Movement. They are changing.
here is one to bounce around in your thinking apparatus
The Law is just as much an enemy of the Gospel of Grace as the Old Sinful Nature!
Yet believer souls Trust Christ as their Savior and then turn right around and use Law keeping as evidence of salvation
It is Grace that teaches “disciplines” us as believer souls
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
We dont produce the fruit we bear it .
Active dependence (through exposing our minds to the word of God reckoning ourselves dead to sin and alive to God , presenting ourselves to God rom 12:1-2 then yielding to Holy Spirit) passive production
Baptism for christian service to God to live the christian life is just as heretical as works for salvation
romans 6 is completely dry there is no water Paul is simply stating our new identity in Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit Only the Holy Spirit can place into Christ by the Free Gift of God by Grace through a response by a soul of FAITH
we are his workmanship
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
not being mixed with faith
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Does anyone else notice how souls come on this blog to defend the teachings of a man ? when scripture tells us to prove all things , test the spirits
be a Berean ?
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Also we are to test the spirit’s
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Chuck, we agree that judgement is God’s job. Accordingly, we do not teach that we can judge whether or not someone is saved by his behavior. Nor can we judge if someone who is teaching a false gospel is saved or unsaved.
We can judge whether or not someone’s teaching lines up with the word of God.
We do not think that Kyle Idleman’s false gospel lines up with the word of God. You disagree. We are both making judgements.
Works? Works are a fruit of faith. Follower, deciple, where would they be without their works, their fruit, helping others in love. Love!
I’m sorry that you feel the way you do about Kyle. I’m sorry you feel the need to judge Kyle. I believe that judgement is God’s job. If judgement is a fruit of your faith then your faith is in need of review,
outline it ?
Curt, that was a good series. Sometimes you need to stop and make sure you are outlining it, but all in all, very good.
If I may post a 4 part series to consider for the fear of being left behind is a result of the influence of a weak to false Gospel message.
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound
Daniel, keep in mind, we are raptured not because we are deserving, but because we are part of His body from the moment we believe because of the work of the Holy Spirit. He loves us and He will gather us unto Himself.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Eph 5:29-32
This is spoken to believers being told to believe. Why? He is letting them know He will receive all believers unto Himself.
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:1-3
Jesus prayed for us, do you believe His prayer will be answered? 🙂
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. John 17:24
Thank you johninnc. Thank you Preston.
written to the CARNAL yet saved church……For we shall not all sleep, but WE shall ALL be changed. (1 Cor 15——51 I think).
1. WE – Paul includes himself with the Corinth Church
2. ALL – means “all” included are the carnal believers (this means me too; though I don’t deserve it).
Hope this helps.
Daniel, all church age believers will be raptured.
Do ALL believers get caught up in the rapture or just the ones that were “holy enough”? Just like a bunch of self righteous pharisees right? If so, I’m im going to be aggravated.
Cody, Preston has written a book that covers the topic about which you inquired. I will send an electronic copy to you.
Hello! I recently saw an amazing post or book that was written about lordship salvation on y’alls website. Anyway it explains that Paul in Romans 7 struggled with committing habitual sin. It was simaler to the explanation of 1 John 3:9. It used the Greek words prazo and poeo to explain one single act of sin, and habitual sin. I know that in 1 John 3:9 it means one single act of sin, whereas in Romans it speaks of Paul struggling with habitual sin. Anyway I really enjoyed that book or article and I would love to see it again so I can show it to my lordship salvation fiends. It’s so sad but one of my friends beloves that if you commit suicide you will die and go to hell even if you were once saved. I told him that he is believing a catholic doctrine, but he said it’s what most Christians believe. I just don’t understand how one could believe that way
We never know who we may plant a seed with, or water something that has been sown. We share the gospel. Funerals are opportunities IF they allow people to come up and speak at the funeral. Plan something and have it written in case they allow you to speak (speaking to everyone in general), work the person in, and the gospel, the Lord will help. You can even share how you shared with the person who is gone, (if you did), and that enables you to share the gospel. We never know when we will be given the increase, but the gospel is powerful, we just need to tell it.
yeah, my wife found one of “those” (shes a fan of Joyce Meyer today-smh) and gave her a copy of my book that explains the gospel. Here’s hoping. I have been talking to her family when there is a “window” open to me. My wife also gave a copy to her “uncle” who just passed. Don’t know if he read it or believed it.
Good luck and here’s hoping you catch many a fish.
Preston, I am about to feel your pain. I’m going to my cousin’s wedding (a very nice woman) but it’s going to be accompanied by “mass”.
Good news is that i’ll get to witness to my other cousin who has fallen away from the “church”, but is open to hearing the opinions of others.
I feel your pain. I just went to my wife’s uncle’s funeral. I so wanted to get up there and go nuts on the “father”. (hint hint). Every time I heard something wrong, I would squeeze my wife hand, then she would “pat” me on the knee with her other hand. From an eternity perspective; this is seriously “tragic”.
Bryan, I’ll bet those same 16-18 people who came down to “get saved for real this time” will periodically keep making the same commitment unless and until they get a grip on the biblical Gospel.
Bryan, it is good to hear from you.
Yes, it is really sad the extent to which books like “Not a Fan” are corrupting the gospel.
I think of Luke 8:5 when I think of books like “Not a Fan.”
My wife and I visited a local church a few months back and even though Kyle Idleman’s name was not mentioned, the term “not a fan” came up several times when describing what a true Christian should look like. The sermon that day could be summed up into one sentence, “Well, you may have said some simple little prayer for Jesus to save you, but if you haven’t made Jesus your Lord and if there is no change, then you are not saved.” As a result, there was about 16-18 people came down to the alter to “get saved for real this time” because they felt like they were not making Jesus the Lord of their lives. I was very saddened by this, I probably should of said something, but I thought it would be best to just leave and never go back. My guess is that this pastor may not have had a good grasp on the gospel of grace long before Idleman’s book came out. Unfortunately, I can only assume books such as ‘Not a Fan’ only bolsters their flawed view of Lordship Salvation making it that much difficult to find sound doctrinal preachers.
Antoine, yes, Jesus is Lord, even of the demons, although He is not their Saviour. Jesus is a *JB teacher. So were all the apostles.
Typical, church world view. Salvation is based on how we respond with our lives, instead of simply by grace through faith in what Christ has done.
from Kyle idleman’s church’s website
We believe in the Gospel—the Good News of Salvation. Yes biblical
That man, created by God, willfully sinned against God and is consequently lost and without hope apart from Jesus Christ. Yes biblical
That salvation—the forgiveness of sins—is only by grace through the blood of Jesus Christ. Yes biblical
That one receives salvation by putting faith in Christ, (Yes if stops here)
No No Not biblical this next statement is heresy
repenting of sin, and confessing Christ, and that the Bible commands every believer in Christ to be baptized by immersion.
How much repenting of sin ?
(the penalty of sin is dying for your sin)
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
How much confessing Christ ?
Show me Chapter and verse the “command” to be baptized !!!!!!!
That those who have received salvation through faith in Jesus Christ are sent into the world to proclaim the gospel and to love and serve the world just as Jesus Himself did.
love and Serve the world ???????
1Jn 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
what is the will of God Antonie ?
Antoine, welcome and thanks for your comment.
Jim’s article points out, with lots of biblical examples, how Idleman’s teachings depart from the true gospel.
Marking and avoiding false teachers is biblical. It is not a “straw man.” It in no way is similar to the other things to which you have compared it.
You have provided no biblical support for your statement.
The comments here are very disheartening. The obsession over the apostasy of the so called “LS” is a straw man argument. No one seems to want to deal with the content but. in apolitically correct style, only with labeling Idleman as a teacher of LS. Very, very similar to other worldly approaches to today’s hot issues such as homosexuality and abortion. Those who oppose get labeled “homophobic” and “haters” Also, most of your scriptural examples actually serve Kyle Idleman’s point and not the *JB point of view. Jesus is Lord.
I had not heard that Jan of Matthew 7, I have regarding the sheep and goats or judgment of the nations in Matthew 25, but the generalization of those who will enter the kingdom of heaven, do you see that as the sheep and goat judgment? It doesn’t seem to be a parallel to me, but curious the passages for support. I don’t know, just don’t remember that.
What Idleman and the rest of the loadship crowd seem to miss is that the passage in context is not about ‘how to spot a true Christian’, but how to know a false prophet or ravening wolves by their fruits (doctrine). It spells out what their doctrine is. Outwardly they will look like sheep.
They will definitely call Him Lord, Lord.
They justify themselves by their own wonderful works.
He never knew them.
They didn’t build their foundation on the Rock.
We see the foundation of the loadship purveyors, and it is one of works, which is sand, and will never justify, and they will not just BELIEVE which is the only way we are justified….
They will not do the will of the Father.
Jan, I had never thought of it that way, but both interpretations are consistent with grace. Either way, no church age Christian will be judged at that time.
Johninnc, as far as I have been taught and have studied it myself, Matthew 7:21-23 is NOT about the white throne judgment in heaven, but about a judgment of false prophets and teachers on earth by Jesus Christ, after He has returned on earth to usher in His millennial kingdom on earth, the kingdom of heaven.
Thanks for sharing that, John. I agree–the first thing that really jumped out to me was the lack of anything challenging Idleman’s error on the part of CBN or the interviewer.
Lordship salvationist such as Idleman has no way of knowing if they are saved until live a full committed life.
Romans 6:23 says that the “wages of sins is death”, not living a committed life. Nothing in his interview does he speak about Christ’s finished work on the cross, His burial, or His ressurection.
The irony is that Matthew 7 is about people that believe like Idleman.
It is always telling when Lordship salvationists say “I hope so”. That should reveal to anyone that they are not trusting in Christ alone but are looking to their works for verification.
Idleman seems to be placing himself at he scene of the Great White Throne Judgment depicted in Matthew 7:21-23. Why can’t he discern the difference between the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgement?
Also not surprising is that CBN didn’t seem to recognize any error whatsoever.
Romans 4:13 – For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made VOID, and the promise made of NONE EFFECT:
I HATE RELIGION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just read an interview with Idleman on CBN. Following are a couple of excerpts:
Is it not enough to just be a fan of Jesus? Will that get you through?
I hope so. One of the most sobering passages of Scripture is probably Matthew 7 where, at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus tells of a day where we stand before Him, and Jesus will say to many, “I never knew you.” And He says on that day many will say, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not work miracles?” They come up with a pretty impressive list of things. And Jesus said, “Depart from me; I didn’t know you.” So, you have this picture of people who assumed everything was fine and could point to their spiritual acts as evidence, even some fruit. But, Jesus brings it down to this intimacy, this knowing and being known by Him.
(My comment: “I hope so”? Can Idleman not tell us how one can know for SURE that he is going to heaven? This doesn’t make any sense. The people referred to in Matthew 7:21-23 are not fans. They are devoted followers of Christ. But, they aren’t Christians. They have never trusted Christ as Savior. Non-believers who follow Idleman’s false gospel may get charged up about following Christ, but they won’t get into heaven. They won’t be just fans. They’ll be just lost.)
As a first time author what’s the one thing that you want your readers to take away and apply to their lives? What your greatest hope for this book?
I think that the easiest way to say it would be from 1st John 2:6 that those who follow Jesus must live as Jesus lived. If you’re going to call yourself a Christian, and that necessarily means that you’re going to do your best to follow Christ with your whole heart. It seems like an obvious connection, but saying, “I believe in Jesus,” that that is more than just a mental assent or a verbal acknowledgment; but it’s a life commitment.
(My comment: Believing in Christ as Savior is not a “life commitment.” It is believing in Christ as Savior. If one is relying on Christ plus his “life commitment” to get into heaven, he is relying on his life commitment. And, he won’t get in.)
Jim F, exactly – Rom 10:3-4, and John 5:40 also that John shared come to mind. They did wonderful works in Matt 7, but like you mentioned before, a slap in the face, in actually seeking to establish their own righteousness, vs. receiving His.
John, Thank you for that explanation of John 10. If people might not just look at only one verse, but when in question, consider context (which is hugely important).
I think some are so used to hearing these verses excised out of their proper context in so many churches, it almost is as if some cannot entertain or hear context. Thank you for continuing to patiently lay out His Word.
I really don’t see what LS proponents do as that much different than the Pharisees. Trying to establish one’s own righteousness is a rejection of the gospel.
More on people trying (unsuccessfully) to work their way into heaven:
Matthew 7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 19:16: And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Luke 10:25: And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
John 5:40: And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Alex, “follow”, in this context, means to trust in Jesus – as in “follow Him to heaven”. It is helpful to read this in context:
 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Alex, the story of the rich young ruler is indeed in Luke 18 (also Matthew 19 and Mark 10). The message to the rich young ruler (Matthew 19) and the impertinent lawyer (Luke 10) was the same: if you want to work your way into heaven, you must keep the law.
Both the rich young ruler and the lawyer were trying to justify themselves (i.e., work their way into heaven):
Luke 10:29: But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbor?
But, it is Christ alone who is righteous, by whom we may be justified if we believe in Him as Savior (not Him plus our works):
Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
I love that John. I never thought someone could ruin that story, but John MacArthur’s account is one of the most convoluted, I am guessing Kyle Idleman’s account would be similar.
So many get caught up in their good works, or judging another’s good works, and I just see that obviously the rich man could not keep the law (as you showed in His Word), no one has (Rom 3:23), but this man thought HE could do something to inherit eternal life, isn’t that what Lordship proponents also think with their long list of “DO”s?
The parable of the rich young ruler is in Luke 18 not 10 just for clarification.
Holly, the account of Jesus’ interaction with the young ruler in Matthew is the easiest for me to understand.
Matthew 19:17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Luke 10:28: And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Then, the punch line:
Romans 3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Holly, the account of Jesus’ interaction with the young ruler in Matthew is the easiest for me to understand.
Matthew 19:17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Luke 10:28: And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Then, the punch line:
Romans 3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Good point Jim, the ruler wanted to know what he could do, in addition, like the passage in Matt 7, these type of teachers/pastors try to use to fruit inspect, the rich young ruler thought his works were good (wouldn’t admit to ever having broken the law).
I think on what Jesus told the crowd they could do.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:28-29
John is right. The rich young ruler was looking for something to do to inherit eternal life. Jesus was pointing out him how hopeless that would be. He needed to realize that salvation could be obtained through faith in the Savior. He went away sorrowful not having believed. Remember what Jesus told Nicodemus. John 3:14-18
What do you feel john is referring to in John 10:27 are these just some sheep that follow him or is he talking about those who are saved.
Alex, welcome and thanks for your question.
If you use the KJV, you get a much better idea of what was going on in this passage:
 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Jesus gave a hypothetical answer to the question that was asked. He told the lawyer that all he needed to do was perfectly follow God’s law.
Like you said, it was pretty straightforward. The only problem is, the Bible teaches that no one has ever done this:
 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
So, the alternative to sinless perfection, which none of us has ever achieved, is a Savior, which is Christ the Lord (Luke 2:11).
To learn more, please read the booklet linked below:
Click to access how-to-be-sure-you-are-going-to-heaven-with-cover.pdf
What is your take on this passage as it relates to eternal life. It seems to be fairly straightforward in Christ’s words.
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
How tragic for all of them, I continue to pray we can save some from the fire as we hate the stench of the garment of flesh. This is what Lordship teachings are all about. Lordship. Not Him, the one who IS Lord, the one who is God, the Messiah. It’s about their idol of self righteous works, their idol of their intellect, their pride and puffed up egos in their knowledge as they chastise you for not being humble. They feign humility as they accuse you of possibly being one of the Matt 7 false prophets who cry Lord, Lord…
What must it feel like to them when they go home, or are alone? They are deceivers and they are being deceived. How lonely it must be, how frightening, do they comfort themselves with their proof-texts I wonder, as they do not seem to love the entirety of God’s Word?
I was listening to Voddie Baucham again the other day in a video where he says the Church IS Israel (hence his reasoning for not loving them, and saying that they have no eschatological significance to him)…
I just wonder sometimes, what they are thinking, they cannot have peace, even if they ever believed the true gospel, they are not abiding in His Word, so they must have a terrible lack of assurance, and what tares they must be raising up…
Francis Chan is one person I’ve seen use the word “but” to follow statements like, “Yes, the Bible says we’re saved by our faith . . . ”
Thanks for sharing that, Bryan.
Bryan, great story!
At least the people you were dealing with were honest about their heretical beliefs. Many others try to mask their beliefs by saying they believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, BUT…
Funny thing happened a couple months ago. I got in a debate with an admin of a FB page called “Determined to Make It to Heaven”, about the subject of faith vs. works for salvation. The admin flat out said that it takes works, and began to say that salvation by faith alone was an insult to God and wanted no part of a salvation that was “simple”. I tried to explain my position a little more in depth by posting the link to her/him of the “The Gospel” from the Clear Gospel Campaign. The admin totally disregarded it and went on and on about people such as myself were wolfs in sheep clothing(talk about crazy). Anyway, some fans of the paged weighed in as well, and of coarse, took the side of the admin. So after I figured I said enough, the admin recommend a book to me so I can get “educated.” And that book was….”Not A Fan” by Kyle Ildeman. lol
Alex, I’m sure you’ve guessed by now, I’m no scholar either, although John and Jim are pretty humble about their own backgrounds. I am a student of His Word, and want to know the truth for sure in all things.
Yankee did an interesting couple of videos, one was about harmatia (missing the mark basically) or hamartian, sin, and another which I remember on 1 John 3.
I’d have to disagree (or it’s not at all my understanding) what you said about poieo and harmatian >>“in proper exegesis means one who does or practices sin habitually”.
Poieō is more like a prolonged form of do, and one time, not habitually at all, but one time. So, I believe when He chose the way we would be saved, the way we would be redeemed, the way we appear, I think on Eph 1 and how we are ‘holy and without blame before him in love’. We are sanctified already although the flesh sins, and I’d guess habitually if as Paul said, “For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.”
You might look up Yankee Arnold on youtube for 1 John 3:3-9. A lot of confusion on multiple verses in 1 John, but the beginning of the book kind of cleared up that for me, (along with always having the understanding of what eternal life entails, and that His Word does not contradict itself), because it explains why the book was written (fellowship) in similar style to his gospel of John, specifically 20:31, where he identifies why ‘these things were written’.
Hope that helps, there will always be verses difficult to understand, but I have sure learned so much by context, and by also looking up the original language myself and not just listening to some scholars explanation of proper understanding.
The word “know” there is not equal to Believe in Him as Savior. It is speaking to a believer’s knowledge of their Savior in a personal ongoing sense in their Christian walk. This passage also talks about abiding in Christ.
TD said, “… some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives…”
God gives no believer permission to sin. When a believer does sin the sin is covered under the blood and the is no legal condemnation for it but the believer can experience hardship, chastening even to the point of physical death, possible loss of eternal rewards, hindered prayers etc.
Idleman also said: “If you try and separate the message of follow from the message of believe, belief dies in the process. Our churches will continue to be full of fans until we break down the dichotomy between following and believing. Following is part of believing. To truly believe is to follow.” (p. 33)
(The opportunity to receive the free gift of salvation dies in the process of hearing a works gospel. Belief is NOT dependent on following. I can’t stress that enough. One can actually be a believer but not necessarily a committed learner/follower. Likewise a person can be a “follower ” but not a believer. Many unsaved people try to follow Jesus. The sad thing is that they get so focused on the hype about following that they miss the first part about believing.)
“Kyle knows, and obviously teaches, GRACE thru faith, but he calls people, just like Jesus did, to “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are to FOLLOW our Lord & Savior, which is obedience to him (“If you love Me you will obey me”).”
(Kyle’s version of grace through faith is different than ours. His definition of faith is a LS definition of faith. He adds in elements of commitment and discipleship. See the quote from Not a Fan:
“Biblical belief is more than mental assent or verbal acknowledgment. Many fans have repeated a prayer or raised their hand or walked forward at the end of a sermon and made a decision to believe, but there was never a commitment to follow. Jesus never offered such an option. He is looking for more than words of belief; he’s looking to see how those words are lived out in your life. When we decide to believe in Jesus without making a commitment to follow him, we become nothing more than fans.” (p. 32)
“Sorry you guys, but faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26). You can say you BELIEVE all day, but if you don’t FOLLOW Christ I don’t believe you really do believe He is who says He is. ”
(This is talking about justification before men. Have you ever tried to quantify not following Christ? So you are saying just one sin or just one failure in discipleship can say we don’t really believe He is who He says He is? I have a better question. If you or anyone believes that salvation is by faith plus works then do you really believe in the Savior that offers salvation by grace through faith?)
“You don’t do works to earn salvation, you do works because you’re so grateful you have undeservedly received salvation from such a forgiving & gracious God. Jesus over & over again calls us to a higher place in our devotion & character…”
(Exactly, not to be saved, stay saved, or prove to ourselves that we are saved but because we are saved and now he desires closeness in fellowship with us.)
Alex, welcome and thanks for your question/comment.
I don’t know the greek language. I wasn’t even in a fraternity in college. And, I am by no means a scholar.
But, I know the Bible doesn’t contradict itself. Therefore, I know these three things are incontrovertible:
1. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
2. Eternal life cannot be lost or forfeited.
3. One can have assurance of eternal life the moment he accepts Christ as his Savior.
Accordingly, that rules out using 1 John as a “test” of ourselves or others to see if we (or they) or really saved.
That leads me to the obvious interpretation that 1 John is a test of fellowship, not a test of eternal life.
Not greek. Not scholarly. But, Biblical!
Bryan, I am sincerely praying with you for TD, my post was one of concern, and also ire at seeing His gospel maligned actually by teachers who confuse people and have followers that have no clear idea where eternal life started, and are still living this side, and many may not know Him.
Many will be justifying themselves by their own works sadly on that day.
Sorry, my italics didn’t end after TD’s ‘quote’, should have had “marks”…
Forgive me if I overstep, your words are concerning, not for me, bu for you. The worst part of what you say TD?
You are so, so deceived. If what LS teaches is poison, then what is your version of LS (lukewarm salvation) teaching? Skin of your teeth (, license to sin (Rom 6:1), Jesus spitting you outta His mouth salvation? That’s messed up, guys. Why would Heb 12, for one, warn us of God’s hand of discipline (as sons) if He doesn’t care HOW we live our saved lives?
Of course no one here says He doesn’t care how we live our lives, suggest a license to sin, or “lukewarm salvation” (as you put it), it is why most of the New Testament is written.
May I ask you a question? What is an overcomer? Are you sure you are His, and not the one that may be deceived? I ask this in all sincerity because your post is obviously confused.
What is your faith in exactly TD, because in your post, I hear a lot of real quick lip-service to the ‘now we understand that we are saved by grace…(yada yada seems to be your attitude) followed by a large BUT and a majority of your speech is about what YOU are DOING.
Yes! Believers SHOULD be careful to maintain good works, and all throughout these blogs, no one has suggested otherwise. These things are beneficial to all, but obviously since we see many believers had trouble doing this, there is much exhortation in the epistles to show us HOW we are to live as BELIEVERS.
Stop accusing others or suggesting others are unsaved, licentious, lukewarm, deceived, and take a look into the mirror and see if you have ever known liberty.
Keep salvation SEPARATE from a believer’s walk, or you end up corrupting minds from the simplicity that is in Christ and one of them may be your own as you use wisdom of words vs. fear and trembling presenting CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED.
Said in concern and with Jesus Christ’s love, but PLEASE, Lordship purveyors, stop trampling Him underfoot, counting His blood and unworthy thing, and insulting His Spirit of grace.
TD, it is obvious that you have totally misunderstand everything we preach here. Plus you don’t believe that faith is enough for salvation, the evidence is pretty clear to me based on your comments that you are trusting in faith in Christ plus works. Which nullifies the gospel. When I hear someone trow that phrase “license to sin” around it is a sure indicator that that person is trusting in works for salvation. I’ll pray for you and please check out Tom Cucuzza’s book “Secure Forever”.
What is the consensus on 1 John specifically chapter 2:1-6, taking into account the context (he) referring clearly to Christ, and the Greek verb poiei 4160 and the noun hamartian 266, in proper exegesis refer to the one who “does or practices sin habitually” or ie does not do righteousness or come back to righteousness; therefore “does not keep his commandments as in verse 3-4 is a liar and the truth is not in him or another phrase used in the text is does not “know him” or Believe in him (Christ). First john has been used throughout all of church history as a proof text or circumspectual text to define true Christians and distinguish them from the world. Even in the apostle Johns day he was fighting between the antinomians and the perfectionists. However it’s clear in the text both English and through Greek induction that this was written so believers and possible unbelievers could test themselves and quite possibly those in their fellowship against the standard of righteousness that God requires. This was not a text only for Christians (never historically understood this way and only recently interpreted by uneducated non-Greek speaking “scholars”).
Welcome TD and thanks for your comment.
Your comment is right on some levels and wrong on so many others. You spent 651 words confusing grace and works, accusing us of teaching license, misusing scripture, and all of the normal “tricks of the trade” for LSers.
Ultimately, though, you contradicted yourself and made our point for us.
You said: “…so often Paul is calling people, saved people, out of their laziness & their sin.”
My comment: Exactly. SAVED PEOPLE. Why did Paul do this? Because SAVED PEOPLE often live lives of laziness and sin. Paul exhorted them to grow as Christians, to walk in the newness of life, and so on. But, unlike you, he never suggested that people weren’t saved if they didn’t heed his instructions.
TD, this may come as a shock to you, but our Bibles are complete. We know about James 2:14-26. We know it doesn’t teach salvation by faith plus works. We know that the “demon faith” argument doesn’t apply to us, because we know demons aren’t eligible for salvation. Jesus is God in the flesh who became a man, to be qualified to be our sin-bearer. He did not become a demon to be qualified to be the sin-bearer for demons.
Please read the attached article entitled “Lordship Salvation: The Enemy of Grace” and reflect quietly on that for a while:
Sorry you guys, but faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26). You can say you BELIEVE all day, but if you don’t FOLLOW Christ I don’t believe you really do believe He is who says He is. You don’t do works to earn salvation, you do works because you’re so grateful you have undeservedly received salvation from such a forgiving & gracious God. Jesus over & over again calls us to a higher place in our devotion & character (Matt 5:17-32). Oh no!.. is Jesus saying you’re saved by works? Kyle knows, and obviously teaches, GRACE thru faith, but he calls people, just like Jesus did, to “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are to FOLLOW our Lord & Savior, which is obedience to him (“If you love Me you will obey me”). If you call Him Lord because you “believe” He’s Lord, but you don’t FOLLOW Him… then, frankly, you are deceiving yourself… you would follow Him if you TRUELY believed He is Lord. Even the demons believe; they know who He is… that sure doesn’t make them saved (again, James 2:18 & 19).
I see that LS is what you believe… so, I guess… Let’s just rip a whole lotta pages out of the Bible to support that theory. Cling to some, rip the rest out! You’d have to completely overlook most of the NT, including the red letters, to come to your conclusions that you can have salvation apart from Jesus’ lordship! You are so, so deceived. If what LS teaches is poison, then what is your version of LS (lukewarm salvation) teaching? Skin of your teeth (, license to sin (Rom 6:1), Jesus spitting you outta His mouth salvation? That’s messed up, guys. Why would Heb 12, for one, warn us of God’s hand of discipline (as sons) if He doesn’t care HOW we live our saved lives?
Now, we understand that we are saved by grace thru faith & that our faith is counted as righteousness, but we can not discount all else that scripture says. We are to be holy because He is holy, and so often Paul is calling people, saved people, out of their laziness & their sin. If it is by believing alone, but it shouldn’t stop there. There ought to be growth. It’s like you read Rom 6:1, 12-18 but you chose to say, “Look Paul, I don’t have to listen to you, you’re pushing people to works, and that’s poison… telling people to OBEY and to become a slave to Christ! That’s wicked!” just how would Paul respond to your claim that he’s a poison-peddler? There are SO many examples like this one! Jesus saves you from destruction by His mercy & grace thru your believing it, but He says, “Go, and sin no more,” and you say, “Forget you! I believe and you made a promise, so keep your promise & shut up… Lord!”
You may be saved, but you would do right to spur the BELIEVERS on to good works, just like Paul does, just like James, Just like JESUS and just like Kyle.
“The man who says, “I know Him,” but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. ~ 1 John 2:4
“But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to his holy people. I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives ((Kyle’s saying the opposite & you can’t stand it)). The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” ~ Jude 1:3b&4
Wow… Master, Lord… that’s pretty heavy. Why don’t you think on that quietly for a bit.
Thanks for that note on the “gentleman, not so much” who was abusive. What a pity. Yes, we get them and try to keep them from abusing our readers. That person could very well have tried to comment here and was upset because we did not allow his rants.
Scripture says we who contend for the Truth of the Gospel of God’s Grace will not be loved by the world nor the “religious works salvation” folks.
But hang in there and keep doing what you are doing for the Lord. We support you. As you know and express so eloquently, The Gospel is Precious — there is no salvation in a “works” message but only through believing the Gospel, our faith in the Death Burial and Resurrection of our Savior, Jesus Christ alone.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
It’s amazing how angry some get. It started today on another post regarding a pun on the Lordship comment, and continued over to a post on Eternal Security. What does that have to do with this thread?
A gentleman (or not so much) on FB (after chastising me on my link with Ralph Yankee Arnold and Eternal Security, brought up Kyle Idleman first after a few rants. I ended up deleting that post, now I wish I had not, but I knew at that point, he had either been reading here, or seeing me on FB, because I did not know him, I had to eventually block him.
Let’s just say he got angry enough that when I asked him twice to no longer respond, he told me in an email that I did not have the Spirit, and that I also twisted God’s Word. I am sure you all get plenty of those types of responses, but the gospel is so important, the integrity of the gospel is being attacked all the time, and we are said to be the false ones. Please keep speaking, and may the Lord bless you all as you labor for the harvest.
Jim and John,
I am constantly amazed that such false teachers as Idleman can be so “successful,” with huge congregations and “successful” books (in the world’s eyes), etc.
Does he actually believe that for his own personal salvation???? Or has he found a “works” gimmick to keep his multitudes of acolytes blindly following and donating?
Certainly Satan is alive and well without doubt — and more so in these latter days.
Thanks to both of you for standing fast for the Gospel of God’s Salvation by Grace through faith in Christ ALONE!! We are in the minority in the world but a Majority with the Lord.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Right John, Idleman illustrates for us exact problem with lumping discipleship in with the decision to trust Christ as Savior. It changes faith to a barter system or a way to earn salvation.
Jim, there are a couple of quotes from parts 1 and 2 of your article that I would like to highlight:
Part 1 “Jesus would not accept a relationship with Nicodemus where he simply believed; Jesus wanted Nicodemus to follow. Jesus didn’t just want Nicodemus just at night; he wanted Nicodemus during the day too.” (p. 31)
Part 2: Speaking of the Rich young ruler:
“He’s faced with the choice of following Jesus or keeping his stuff, but he couldn’t do both”(p. 144)
My comment: Idleman’s premise is that to believe in Christ (faith) requires following Christ (works). He is mixing faith and works for salvation.
When Idleman says that the rich young ruler faced a choice of following Christ (works) or keeping his stuff, he is literally saying that one can buy salvation. No faith at all. Simply a trade.
It is sad to say be we need to be about getting the gospel to our churches and making sure people understand here. What good is going out into the world to spread the gospel or being “sold out followers of Christ” if we don’t first get the gospel right.
Jim, I just read part two. The popularity of “Not a Fan” is a testament to how bereft so many churches are of any meaningful understanding of what the Gospel is, and what the Gospel is not.
Ephesians 6:12: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
Hi all, for any interested. Part two of my review concerning Kyle Idleman’s book Not a Fan has just been posted.
Mark, thanks for letting me know about Jesse Johnson’s background. The apple doesn’t appear to have fallen too far from the tree!
Jesse Johnson attended John MacArthur’s The Masters Seminary and was on staff at his church for years– he is a died in the wool Calvinist and Lordship Salvationists. Also, notice carefully that Johnson put Regeneration [before] being born again– that is classic calvinist thinking. They teach that one must be regenerated first in order to believe, rather than believe first and then be regenerated. That entire system is one big convoluted mess! Calvinism is nothing more than Gnosticism.
Sam, you are welcome, I agree with you, it’s amazing what clarity will do. Repetitive phrases that have been repeated over and over have subtly corrupted people’s minds from the simplicity that is in Christ… All these “isms” are of man, and if they are representing God, they are happy to be a servant and share His Word, and let God’s Word do what He sent it to do.
I don’t think they know what the will of the Father is (John 6:38-40) spoken of to the false prophets who cry Lord, Lord in Matt. 7 not doing it, nor do I think they understand the works of God (John 6:28-29) instead they are doing their own works…
I feel the same about some of the clear teaching here, very appreciative of it.
thanks hollysgarcia for the input,I was happy to hear from someone that actually met him.I also thought he came across as a very sincere person on the radio but I definitely picked up on the Calvinism(but just wasn’t sure where he stood on what was required to be saved .) .I appreciate all the good posts from everyone here and have learned a lot about what the Gospel is and what the Gospel is not through this website
I just read your comment, much better reason to mark and avoid Answers in Genesis than what I gave, thank you so much for providing their “gospel message” which I believe is another gospel.
Oklahoma Free Gracer
Thanks for sharing that about Ken Ham, although I don’t follow him, he was also one of the promoters of the Roman Catholic produced, “The Bible Series” along with Rick Warren. Most of us have come to find how erroneous that series was. To maintain Biblical integrity, he should mark and avoid, but he has not. And Ray Comfort? No… if they are not one of them, they simply share in their evil deeds (2 John 1:7-11)
So many great discussions here, I missed a lot…. Hi to all the new people or some that I haven’t seen before.
Sam, I had some Catholic friends and ordered Mike Gendron’s book which mostly delved into the Bible vs. the Catechism – or so I think :). Later he changed the title, and I saw him start teaching some things that troubled me on FB. Later I saw through another ministry that they called him out regarding his Calvinism, evidently they didn’t know at the time they had him as a speaker. He doesn’t overly teach Calvinism, so it is not easy to spot in the beginning.
But very sadly, very nice man, have spoken to him on the phone, but he is an admitted Calvinist. Let me tell you…. I wish too they would be straight, but it sometimes takes awhile to figure them out. Some must want to stay in midstream for their conferences and books I would imagine. No one wants to be critical, yet we are called to mark and avoid, and take heed to the doctrine.
Brannon Howse, not sure exactly of what he proclaims for his doctrine personally, but he does promote an awful lot of Calvinists so I do not listen nor recommend him either.
Thank you jack that explanation lines up with rest of scripture. Maree
Yes, as we’d go to the woods to hunt squirrels we’d say, “The ‘woods is full of ’em’ — but they really camouflage themselves well.”
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Wise decision and we appreciate your honesty. Abandon those whom we know are teaching error and stick with the True. We at ExP are aware such are few and far between — but we will attempt to steer you in the direction of God’s FREE Grace so you may;
“… grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.” 2 Peter 3:18
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Thanks for the suggestions about Brannon Howse and his website. I will be sticking to clear Gospel teaching as I’ve had it with this kind of teaching. It’s just a shame that I even listened to them as I know better…I agree there is no mild lordship salvation, it’s just simply false teaching period..
Jim and Jack, I have looked into AIG as well – in addition to their false gospel, they seem to believe in “perseverance of the saints” and its related “fruit inspection.”
Thanks, I am alarmed that AIG has no more discernment than they show. Their statements, while theologically tricky indict them as you say and I agree, “I would conclude that AIG is not Free Grace.” A tragic shame.
Partnering with Ray Comfort is bad enough and should encourage all discerning folks to shy away. I’ll add Ham and his web site to our Wiki-Heresies.
There seems no end to rampant error in “accepted religious” circles.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
I noticed that Quentin Road had Ken Ham on the schedule to speak there earlier this year (March) but not at the conference. This year they had Dr. Carl Baugh speaking on creation topics.
Also, the site for the Answers Mega Conference is currently advertising that both Ken Ham and Ray Comfort will be there.
Under the AIG site states this under the Gospel: “Jesus was the perfect sacrifice; He died on a cross, but on the third day, He rose again, conquering death, so that all who truly believe in Him, repent of their sin, and trust in Him (rather than their own merit) are able to come back to God and live for eternity with their Creator.” Likewise their doctrinal statement says:
“The Holy Spirit enables the sinner to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit lives and works in each believer to produce the fruits of righteousness.
Salvation is a gift received by faith alone in Christ alone and expressed in the individual’s repentance, recognition of the death of Christ as full payment for sin, and acceptance of the risen Christ as Savior, Lord, and God.
I would conclude that AIG is not Free Grace.
Thanks for dropping in. We welcome all free gracers (and some who are not). We would like to convince those who disagree that the Bible proclaims God’s Free Grace; by Grace alone through Faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
I agree with Bruce — Ham has an accurate analysis of Genesis Creation but I am likewise disappointed about Ken Ham’s slide into questionable associations and LS leanings, some of which have been known for some time.
I was not aware of Ham being a Presenter at the Grace Conference. I will contact some folks and associates at Quentin Road Church to see if they were aware of Ham’s problem.
We appreciate your discernment and welcome you back any time.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Thanks for visiting and commenting.
Yes, Calvinists use that verse (and many others out of context) for many reasons. In your statement most (maybe with rare exceptions) have no belief in the Rapture or Tribulation.
Your verse: 2 Thessalonians 2:13
Paul is speaking to those Thessalonians who have believed in Jesus alone for their salvation by their own free will choice.. Though some in the world have and will believe, some will not, God has chosen (preferred) that everyone in the world (John 3:16) to believe through the Gospel via conviction of sin, righteousness and judgement by the Sanctifier, the Holiness of His Holy Spirit. “God is not willing that any should perish..” (2 Peter 3:9) Some believe and live eternally; others do not believe and suffer eternal hell. That is man’s most important choice.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Thanks for your astute observations about Nineveh and Jonah’s message to them. I have never believed his message to Nineveh to be one of eternal salvation, trusting in the coming Messiah, but one of impending physical judgment by God upon the Ninevites. The Scripture does not say that the people were given the message of Eternal Life nor whether they singly or corporately believed unto eternal life.
The people of Nineveh were told that they and their city would be physically destroyed in 40 days. They believed Jonah, who brought them that message, sent by God through Jonah.
Here is a rather long but interesting analysis by Ron Shea of Clear Gospel Campaign on the subject:
It is clear that in Acts 16 where the Philippian jailor asked, “what must I do to be saved” did not concern his physical salvation. He was already going to take his life anyway. His question was concerning how to be eternally saved — which was answered by Paul and Silas. They proclaimed to him in Acts 16:31, “And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”” Paul and Silas knew the Jailor was asking about his eternal salvation.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which is a popular proof text used for calvinism, can the ‘salvation’ term be referring to God choosing believers to be saved from the tribulation? That seems to fit the context, as the Thessalonians had thought they would experience the Day of the Lord.
Yes, you were astute to pick up on that fact about AIG having an LS leaning. Hostile to Free Grace? I’m not sure but others at Expreacherman.com have noticed the LS slant as have you. See the following article, if you are interested, in which a few people made similar comments to yours about AIG:
I, personally, find this situation to be sad because I think that Ken Ham and his organization do a pretty decent job speaking boldly on issues of Creation and a young earth.
Come back often.
Hi again Maree.
Yes, the message of Jonah is often incorrectly thought of as “turn or burn.” That line of thinking probably originated from Calvinist Bible commentators who view everything through their own skewed system of interpretation.
This is my first post. I am a Sooner Free Gracer. I am writing to ask information about Answers in Genesis. I know Ken Ham recently presented a Creation Seminar at Quentin Road Bible Baptist Church, undoubtly a Free Grace church. However, a recent article on the Answers in Genesis website the other day caught my attention. It was entitled “So You’re a Christian—Really?”. The link to the article is here: [removed by admin.] I know that you will have to delete it but I just wanted to post it to inform you. It looks to me like a fruit inspection test for genuine salvation article. I also know that Answers in Genesis sells books by John MacArthur (including his appropriately entitled book “Hard to Believe”). Are Ken Ham or Answers in Genesis hostile to the Biblical Free Grace message? Thank you.
Hi, Thanks for that. The reason I asked is it appears opposite to the grace message that God offers
salvation with no conditions attached, repent of sin etc. or promises etc. but
the message in Jonah seemed to be the opposite. Defintely in response to
what Jesus had done for us and that he gives it to us freely we want to stop
sinning. But in this passage God demands them to turn from their sins then he saw that they had he relented of the evil he was going to do them. It’s a kind of turn or burn type message.
Jonah was recognized by the Ninevites as a prophet of the living God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Upon Jonah’s warnings of impending destruction, the people and their leaders, by and large, although undoutedly not every single individual, trusted in the God of Jonah, the One True and Only God—the Great “I Am”—the God of the Hebrews for their salvation. Jonah 3:5 reads, “So the people of Nineveh believed God [just as the Philippian jailer did in Acts 16:30ff], and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.” Their repentance, that is, their change of mind in trusting in the living God alone for their salvation, appears to have been genuine and there was evidence pointing to real conversion in their acts of fasting and wearing of sackcloth. Of course, these acts had nothing to do with their salvation; their trust in the One True God alone accomplished their salvation. Salvation from temporal judgment, you ask? Yes, but much more than that as well: the text of Jonah 3 seems to indicate that a large number of the Ninevites, perhaps even the majority of them trusted in God for eternal life, again, this appears likely as shown by their overt acts of contrition from the leadership on down. Historically, of course, a few generations later (possibly a hundred years) the Ninevites were indeed judged by God for reverting to their wicked practices; they were eventually overrun and overthrown by the Babylonians.
Hi, I listened to a free grace message on Jonah.. They mentioned Jonah preached a message to the Ninevites of physical death not eternal salvation.
Did they also get saved as it seems to suggest in Luke 11 that they did?
Wouldn’t they have got saved first then turned from their sins afterward to
avoid temporal judgment.? Any thoughts?
I agree John, you can usually recognize a free grace preacher pretty fast.
I found a video where Brannon Howse advocates repenting of sin, turning from sin, and talks a lot about deep sorrow. He even goes into a Way of the Master type approach to the gospel. I believe he is a Calvinist and has some other things that warrant staying away from him.
Also, for some reason the term “worldview” sometimes perks my attention. It is popular with Calvinists and new evangelicals. So is politics, apologetics including creationism, and social causes.
Sam, here’s a good rule of thumb: If you can’t tell whether someone is teaching free grace, there’s a good chance they’re not.
If you think Brannon Howse “is a mild Lordship salvationist”, why listen to him? Mild Lordship “salvation” is just as dangerous as any other variety of Lordship “salvation” – maybe even worse.
Mike Gendron is proclaimed to be a Calvinist in a personal letter to me from Berean Call, where they list him among the Calvinists whom they advertise. This is an old letter but their recommendation of false teachers had only gotten worse.
Berean Call letter in PDF format:
BTW, The Berean Call sees nothing wrong with recommending Calvinists and Lordship “salvationists.” They often agree with them and promote their books and CDs!!
Sam, you might try posting your question (shorter please) at this article (Link below) exposing The Berean Call. There were over 500 comments. Surely commenters there will have info on Howse.
Hope this helps.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Sam, my view on that site is it has a largely political bent to it. Their theology is very difficult to ferret out.
I did find one disturbing piece out there, written by a guy named Jesse Johnson:
“Others use the concept of “lordship salvation” in opposition to “free grace” theology. In some expressions of free grace theology, there is the concept that saving faith can be equated to mental assent to the facts of the gospel. In other words, a person is saved when they recognize that the facts of the gospel are true. I reject this understanding of salvation as well. Saving faith is supernatural (1 Peter 1:3), and it transforms the sinner’s life (2 Cor 3:18). I believe that people are born as slaves to sin (Rom 6:17). Sin is naturally the lord of every person outside of Christ. But at the moment of regeneration, the sinner is born again (1 Pet 1:23). His heart turns from sin, and embraces the truth of the gospel, and this marks a profound change in his life (1 Cor 5:17). No longer is he a slave to sin, but now his new lord is Jesus. If this is what is meant by lordship salvation, then I am in agreement with it.”
My comment: This is Lordship “salvation.” Johnson seems to says that someone who believes the gospel is not saved – kind of a “head faith” vs. “heart faith” kind of thing. This is not Biblically supportable.
The second thing that is errant in Johnson’s statement is his view that receiving eternal life “transforms the sinner’s life.” This will happen if a believer walks in the Spirit and abides in Christ. Otherwise, not so much. The point is, that the changes are not automatic.
But, the most direct evidence of Johnson’s Lordship “salvation” views is the following statement: “His heart turns from sin, and embraces the truth of the gospel, and this marks a profound change in his life.” One is not saved by “his heart turning from sin” AND “embracing the truth of the gospel.” This is a false gospel of works.
I was wondering if anybody has an opionion on Brannon howse on worldviewweekend there are several other bible teachers on that site.. Ive listened to him and would agree with most of what he teaches but I would say he is a mild lordship Salvationist …what I mean is its confusing ,they say were saved by Grace through Faith alone but they often say repent and believe without saying what they mean by repent.There is also some others on there that are interesting like Mike Gendron but im confused by what he says also, sometimes he says were saved by faith alone and other times it repent and believe.I don’t want to be critical of these guys but I wish they would just flat spell it out on what exactly they mean by repent..believe..justified…commit…surrender…yield..finished etc Now I admit im not the smartest guy on the block and im sure they think there clear on these things but I just wish all these discernment ministries would be more clear where they stand on what they think is necessary for salvation as its confusing out there.If any of you guys have some info on these guys I would be interested in reading your post as I know some of you are way more knowledgeable then I in this area………Thanks
You’re welcome Jesse.
That’s awesome Bruce! Thanks for your explanation of this!
Jesse, the Christians will be taken up to heaven at the rapture. Following the rapture the tribulation period will break out on earth. Some unbelievers will become saved during that period.
Here’s a more detailed look from a comment that I made on another post:
Evidences for a Pre-tribulational Rapture:
· Revelation 4: Verse 1-2: “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it [Christ]. V. 4: Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders [picture of the church in heaven]. Notice: you will not see the church mentioned in chapters 6-18, the Tribulation period. In chapter 5, you see the church already in heaven before the Tribulation begins in chapter 6. Then you don’t see the church mentioned again until chapter 19, again, pictured as the multitude in heaven shouting “Hallelujah!” to the Lord.
V. 10: The twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: [The believers have already appeared before the judgment seat (bema) of Christ—2 Cor. 5:10; sadly, some won’t receive any or many crowns—1 Cor. 3:12-15] 11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.” What crowns? A. Ornate ones [a description, not a type of crown] (“like jewels in a crown,” Zech. 9:16); B. Crown of Rejoicing (1 Thes. 2:19); C. Crown of Righteousness (2 Tim. 4:8: for Paul and all who have longed for Christ’s appearing); D. Crown of Life, for those who have persevered under trial because of their love for Christ (James 1:12); E. Unfading Crown of Glory for faithful church leaders (1 Peter 5:4); F. Crown of Life [Martyr’s Crown] for believers faithful to Christ even to the point of death (Rev. 2:10); G. A Crown that needs to be held on to (“I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown” Rev. 3:11; cf. 1 Cor. 3:14-15).
· Revelation 3:10: “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from [Greek, ek, meaning “out of”] the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”
· 1 Thes. 1:10: “and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from [again, ek, “out of”] the coming wrath.
· 1 Thes. 5:9 in the context of vv. 1-3 (the Lord’s coming as a thief in the night): “For God did not appoint us [Christians] to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” [Note: John uses the same term for “wrath,” orges, to speak of God’s wrath outpoured in the tribulation: Rev. 6:16, 17; 11:18; 16:19; 19:15].
· 1 Thes. 4:16: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up [harpazo, meaning, “snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly and vehemently;” the Latin translation (Vulgate) is raeptius (also rapio, rapiere, or rapturo) from which we get our English rapture”] with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
· How will the Lord return? Bodily in the clouds. See Acts 1:9-11: “After he had said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. ‘Men of Galilee,’ they said, ‘why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.’ ” cf. Luke 24:39
· Who will come with the Lord at his return?? 1 Thes. 3:13: “May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when the Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones. Jude 14 [Oldest prophecy in the Bible—pre-flood]: “Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: ‘See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way,” Rev. 19:1-14: “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.”
· 2 Thes. 2:3: “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs [KJV “falling away comes first;” Grk. apostasia, whose root meaning is “to lead away,” or “to depart from”] and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
· 2 Thes. 2:7-8: “For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way [“He” refers to the church, the true believers, who are taken out of the way at the rapture; “he” is not the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit being God will never be taken away]. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
· Why is there a necessity for an interval between the Rapture of the Church [immediately prior to the tribulation] and the Second Coming of Christ [at the end of the tribulation]??
A. There must be time for the judgment of the Saints and rewarding of the crowns.
B. The readying of the Bride of the Lamb—Rev. 19.
C. There must be an interval of time for many to get saved during the Tribulation and to go into the millennium in non-glorified bodies; if all the righteous are glorified before the Millennium and all the wicked excluded from the kingdom, who populates the Millennium?
D. There must be a interval of time between the rapture of the Saints and their return back to earth; otherwise, what is the purpose or logic of having a rapture at all?
E. Also, the destination points are different: the destination of the Rapture is heaven; the destination of the Second Coming is earth.
· 1 Corinthians 15:51-52: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will all be changed.”
· John 14:1:1-4: “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”
I was reading another article referring to the pre-tribulation rapture. I’m trying to learn about this because it worries me to think about it. But are you all saying that the living Christians will be left behind in the tribulation period? Or that all Christians will be raptured up at that time?
Thank you for the great review Jim, and for sharing it with us Jack. These men speak of Pharisees but remind me of the Pharisees themselves in Matthew 23. There is only one ball available to the world, the gospel, they punctured it, they have rendered it ineffective with their ‘cost’, and they always use the ‘counting the cost’ in Luke 14 to build their case.
I agree that it is adding works to salvation, and is a message that sadly is accursed. If that is the message they believe, it is the same passage they use over and over again in Matt 7, that they will hear, because they He neither knew them (I Cor 8:3), nor did they do the will of the Father (John 6:38-40). They do not feed His sheep, therefore I do not believe they love Him, they do not profess belief in the gospel, but they claim more is necessary for it to be ‘correct’. How much clearer can John 6:28-29 be?
I’m a fellow victim of LS, and I am also extremely grateful that God rescued me from that despair.
Welcome, Jesse! We’re glad you stopped by. You will find plenty of folks here who know all too well what it means to be a victim of LS. You’ll find even MORE who are very grateful for God’s AMAZING Grace.
Please stop by often. Your story offers encouragement to others.
Thank you for having this site for people who believe in God’s free grace to find relevant information. I’ve been a victim of LS and I’m grateful God has rescued me from this false gospel.
This is from the church he (Idleman) pastors, their what we believe section on their churches website. Clearly this is a works salvation from this church
We believe the Bible teaches that salvation—the forgiveness of sins—is only by grace through the blood of Jesus Christ (Matthew 26:28; Romans 5:9; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1 Peter 1:18-19; 1 John 1:7)
We believe the Bible teaches that one receives God’s grace by putting faith in Christ, repenting of sin, confessing Christ and being immersed into Christ (Romans 5:1-2 / Luke 24:45-47; Acts 3:19; 17:30; 2 Peter 3:9 / Matthew 10:32; Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:11; 1 John 4:15 / Acts 2:38, Romans 6:1-7; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12; 1 Peter 3:21)
they list repenting, confessing, baptism as part of the faith process
Thanks John, that book and the others like it are surely poisionous. Your statement: “One of the reasons our churches can become fan factories is that false teachers (such as Idleman) have COMBINED or MUDDIED the message of “believe” WITH the message “follow.”” hits the nail straight on. Man has always added in his own “truth” to God’s and we are seeing a current disastrous example of that.
Please share Jim’s review with anyone you know who has read this book, whose church has “small groups” studying this book, etc.
“Not a Fan” is POISON.
Jim selected several quotes that prove, unequivocally, that Idleman is teaching a false gospel of works salvation.
Following is an example quote from “Not a Fan”:
“One of the reasons our churches can become fan factories is that we have separated the message of “believe” from the message “follow.””
My comment: This is 180 degrees from the truth. The truth could be stated more accurately as follows:
“One of the reasons our churches can become fan factories is that false teachers (such as Idleman) have COMBINED or MUDDIED the message of “believe” WITH the message “follow.””