I Marvel: Lordship Salvation’s Spookiest Passage

By johninnc

Galatians 1:6-9:

[6] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

[7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

[8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

[9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:6-9 is one of the most misinterpreted passages in the Bible. This is true, in part, because of the mindset of Lordship “salvationists”, who do not realize the passage is talking about them.

Lordship “salvation” (LS) is the unsupportable belief that the PERFORMANCE of works, the PROMISE of works, or the EVIDENCE of works must accompany faith in Christ in order to establish, or provide evidence, that such faith has resulted in eternal life.

There are two varieties of LSers:

The first group is those who have never trusted in Christ alone as Savior. The Bible refers to this group as “false brethren.”

Galatians 2:4: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

The second group is eternally secure Christians who once believed the gospel, but who have since incorporated LS into their understanding of the gospel.

Galatians 5:4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

According to the NIV Bible that is the mainstay of many LSers, Paul is consigning both of the above groups to hell.

Galatians 1:9 (NIV): As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

This translation is woefully inaccurate.  While it is true that anyone who is preaching a false gospel is accursed, it is not true that they are beyond redemption.  In fact, the sad reality is that some people who preach false gospels are eternally secure Christians who have turned from the good news of the gospel to the bad news and uncertainty of LS.

The mistranslations of Galatians 1:8-9, such as the one featured in the NIV, are part of the reason that Christians fail to mark and avoid the false teachers of LS.

I marvel that someone thinks that God could both desire that everyone be saved (John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9) and also desire that people who are teaching a false gospel be eternally condemned.

I marvel that people cannot discern the contradiction in the NIV “translation” of Galatians 1:8-9 with other scripture.

I marvel that anyone would think that an eternally secure Christian, who falls from grace by incorporating LS into his understanding of the gospel, would be consigned to hell.

I marvel that LSers are not totally freaked-out and spooked by this passage in the NIV!

I marvel that LSers think they can please God with their lifestyle changes, cessation from sin, good works, and so on, without ever having believed in Jesus ALONE as Savior, or after having believed in Jesus as Savior and then having fallen from grace.

I marvel that LSers look to themselves for assurance of eternal life and think they have found it.

I marvel that LSers, who insist that an inspection of self and others for “fruit” of salvation, seem to find it in themselves, but not others.

I marvel that LSers think people represented by soil 2 in the parable of the Sower were never saved. Particularly in light of the FACT that any LSer who is saved is himself represented by soil 2.

I marvel that someone who has never believed in Christ ALONE as Savior thinks he can be a disciple, a “Christ follower” or have a “relationship with Christ.”

I marvel that someone who has fallen from grace thinks he can stay in that state and be in fellowship with Christ.

I marvel how LSers, who mistakenly interpret the book of 1 John to be a series of tests to determine whether or not one has eternal life, routinely conclude that they have passed the test.

I marvel that LSers think the book of James, which was written to believers, is a field guide for determining whether or not one has eternal life – which is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone – based on an evaluation of his works.

And finally, I marvel that someone who understands and believes the gospel would attend churches and financially support ministries that preach a false gospel. I marvel that someone who understands and believes the gospel would hold hands with those who do not and pretend they are all on the same page.

I DO NOT marvel that those who take a stand for the gospel are harangued, hassled, maligned, unfriended, unwelcomed, and disavowed by the religious masses claiming the name of Christ.

Have you been spooked by LS? If so, click here:  Not Scary!

78 responses to “I Marvel: Lordship Salvation’s Spookiest Passage

  1. Cody, Galatians 5:6 has to do with the necessity of believers to be transformed by grace through faith in Christ, rather than attempting it through law keeping.

    It is not entirely clear to me whether the love referred to in that verse refers to our love for Christ or His love for us.

  2. What does Galatians 5:6 mean? Mainly the part where it says faith working by love. I came across it in my devotions. Anyway I’m just curious. The two verses before it refere to faith that saves alone but then in verse 6 it appears that it’s teaching that as the calvinst/lordship salvation teachers would say “faith is never alone”. I’m trying to reconcile it with what we belive that faith without works saves a man. I know that we are saved by faith alone but every now and then I come across a verse I don’t completely understand. Anyway if yall can help me out with understanding the context of this verse I would really appreciate it! Thanks and God Bless!

  3. The church I tried it took only 2 visits before I no longer set foot in the building. First their songs seemed wrapped up in “commit your life”, “surrender all”, etc. There was a lot of truth there with a few things that caused me concern. There was their gospel presentation that had you had to “confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus” 10:9 Then, during his sermon on book of Galatians if we saw someone from the church sinning we should assume they had truly not believed. This, at least to me, seemed a sneaky way to bring works into the minds of the congregation. To make “fruit inspection”.

    Some may feel I overreacted but something inside of me was almost screaming about contradictions. I know we aren’t too trust our emotions or whatever but I couldn’t ignore that small voice

  4. Thanks holly, I have no immediate plans for finding a church home. This site, expreacherman, has been more of a church than trying to seek one among the wilderness of man-made institutions.
    I have seen this outer darkness passage misused also. In the first place it’s not really addresses to the body of Christ, but instead to the Jews under the laws. Our only issue was settled at the cross where we received, by faith, the proper dress for eternity of Christ’s perfect righteousness. LS/ Calvinsts are good at trying to put us back under the law by throwing passages from the four Gospels given under the law and giving them equal weight with grace after the resurrection. To them I guess if it’s in red letters it’s superior to the epistles.

    As for the Lord’s Supper, I think they will try to twist the foot washing passage from John 13 around and make it out like this also applies to the church, and that the church must clean itself up of any unconfessed sins before receiving communion. Certainly, we should confess our sins daily–in fact, I try to always be mindful of my failures while knowing that I have been made eternally righteousness thanks to the grace of God.. But confession of sins is no where said to be a condition for communion as long as we in faith appreciate the meaning of what we are receiving at the Lord’s Supper.

  5. Curtis – well said. I have tried turning from sin, doesn’t work so well. Every now and then I give it a go again in the flesh, not realizing that’s what I am doing. I remind myself, I need to acknowledge Him in all my ways, trust Him. Commit my ways to Him, Delight in Him. Abiding in the Vine and Abiding in the Word, the good part, the needed thing….

    And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Col 2:13-15

    Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord:
    though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;
    though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

    … and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Rev 1:5-6

  6. Phil R. A friend of mine, I felt so bad, I told her to get out of her Calvinist/Lordship church and break all ties. Fred Chay who used to be a local teacher here and was Free Grace Alliance, had a list of ‘free grace’ churches and she started going to one around the corner from her. Then she asked me what Outer Darkness teaching was. I told her if her teacher was teaching it to get out of there. Turned out she stopped going only to the study–still going on Sunday. The pastor started a series on it, when she started asking questions, they started getting first defensive, then offensive. She was in tears saying that it was just like lordship all over again.

    We started going over verses, and she watched Dennis Rokser’s two part series, and asked her pastor about it. He said he’d never watch anything by Rokser because he was ‘harsh’.

    Anyways, within both groups, I guess we have individuals who aren’t content to let the Word of God work. At that Lord’s supper, they weren’t coming in remembrance of His death (the one’s who were taking it unworthily), they were coming in hunger, getting drunk, and even allowing heresies in. I kind of took that to mean when he said ‘not discerning the body’, that they were allowing unapproved people, and also allowing drunkenness within the Lord’s supper. Anyways, that’s how I see it, examine ourselves, is our taking the communion in the way He laid it out, with thanks, remembering His sacrifice, and His shed blood for us.

  7. amen phil …
    the penalty of sin is death . the penalty of sin is dying for your sin NOT repenting of your sin .. Jesus paid for our sin.
    we our to look away from ourselves looking unto Jesus..
    even to TURN from sin is giving place to sin.
    we are to be DEAD to sin . confess it to God for fellowship with Him .
    abiding in Christ the Faith rest walk

  8. holly, I WAS attending a large Bible church that is supposed to be free grace, but i started seeing some questionable things like, the pastor going through the book of Revelation using it to show how people need to get off their duffs and do, do , do..
    The pastor there really turns me off. They have this system where you can do your giving on this thing that looks like an ATM machine in the church lobby. But the last straw was near the end of the Palm Sunday service when this pastor went through this legalistic thing warning people not to receive the bread and grape juice of the Lord’s Supper unless they were ABSOLUTELY sure their was no unconfessed, unrepented sins in their lives. He went on that maybe some of us had better play it safe and not receive the elements. There is NO scriptural basis for this legalism, its man made rules! The is nothing is the NT telling a person not to take the Lords Supper if he is saved. The only mention of any restriction is from Paul and all he was telling the Corinthians in 1 Cor 11 was to lovingly discern the meaning of the elements and not regard them as just everyday food or in disrespect. Paul says nothing about confessing or repenting of sins. These churches just made this dogma up. There is nothing in scripture about confessing sin, or repenting of all your sins as a requirement to participate in communion. I also think that maybe this pastor just doesn’t want me and maybe a few others who can think for themselves in this church. I think he wants people he can spoon feed.

    Dangerous, glad I decided to move on.

  9. The “Bible” church around the corner, which was a spin-off of my childhood Bible church, has become a mega church. Something my old pastor never wanted to see, his desire, along with the early board members was to grow churches in different neighborhoods. Now my old church (Bethany Bible Church in Phoenix) is holding Ash Wednesday services with Catholic style liturgies in tandem with other big church in town (North Phoenix Baptist). Scottsdale Bible church has become a smorgasbord of ideas, from a pastor who used to speak of people like Brennan Manning and tell cute stories of Paul Yonggi Cho (Korean Pastor who claims to have been to the ‘4th heaven’). And now he brought in Rick Warren’s new age Daniel Plan, along with plenty of big Calvinist teachers like charismatic Wayne Grudem. Another teacher John Politan is cramming Calvinism down the throats of the people in the Sunday School Group. One of the women who attended, who knows I speak about different errors, came to me and asked me, “What is this TULIP thing?” And she explained how they were consistently holding her after class to convince her she needed to believe these things. I explained what it was, and told her to flee.

    It is sad, but we must put our armor on and having done all to stand…

  10. Phil, I found an old comment of mine from 2012 that touched on the wishy washy doctrine of the EFCA:

    Brad, my family and I attended an EFCA church for a while. To quote Forrest Gump, “it was like a box of chocolates. You never knew what you were going to get.” I noticed it drifting toward a guilt-laden social gospel just before we left.

  11. Here is a “security of salvation” statement from the EFCA. “Some in the EFCA hold to eternal security, and some hold that a person can denounce his faith. However, the church does not believe that you can easily lose your faith.” Quote from “Finding the Right Church”, by Shelly Steig, 1997.

    I once visited a EFCA church years ago and they seemed double talk about some things,

    With so many churches it seems they can’t just rest in the finished saving work of Christ and just allow his grace to work changes in us. No, these churches, especially these want-to-mega churches, try to prod and self activate you to works.

  12. ” this can be misconstrued all sorts of ways.”
    Amen Johninc

  13. Curtis, very interesting and timely.

    The EFCA says: We believe that God’s justifying grace must not be separated from His sanctifying power and purpose

    My comment: this can be misconstrued all sorts of ways. We are positionally sanctified the moment we believe. Experiential transformation (often referred to as “practical sanctification”), requires cooperation of the believer.

    One does not have to believe that Jesus will “change his life”, or even desire to have Jesus change his life in order to be saved. He must only believe that Jesus (God in the flesh) paid the full price for his sins (past, present, and future) through his death on the cross, and that He was raised from the dead to prove His payment was accepted.

    Romans 4:25: Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

  14. The double bind curse starts how a soul receives the Gospel how the Gospel is administered .
    That’s why we ought to strive for the clarity of the Gospel and strive for the TRUTH of the Gospel to be properly articulated holding ourselves as ambassadors for Christ

  15. here is the snag with Evangelical Free Church of America denomination
    from their own website doctrinal statement :
    “We believe that God’s justifying grace must not be separated from His sanctifying power and purpose”
    to me this statement is a subtle way of saying you need to prove you have the free gift of eternal life by proving to yourself and souls around that you are working for it

    From my own experience coming out of a doctrinal mind control curse i learned :.
    until a soul see’s the 3 tenses of salvation AND their proper relationship and context to one another , Justification , Sanctification , Glorification . A soul will be caught in a double bind works for salvation curse and not even know it and never see it .
    You will not see the TRUTH of the Gospel looking right at it .

    2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
    2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
    2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.

  16. Thanks Holly. Given at this current time and trend, I believe LS is growing. In our country alone, there is a growing number of evangelical churches who are growing exponentially that preach that Jesus Died for your sins and he want’s to have a relationship with you. Many of them skip the part of what did he save them from. Many are basing salvation from a relationship standpoint and really don’t get to the root of the issue that is why there is not much impact on the gospel. I am in a relationship now and I always preach to my girlfriend about LS stuff. I say it to her if I find a message that is false or contains some false ideas and there are many here in our country. It saddens me everyday but this is reality. I wish more people would visit this blog so that they might find light in knowing what the gospel really is about

  17. Nathan Paul and Dino, just reading through and seeing the comments, Alice, Maree, John John, it’s good to read through the comments again, especially of Jack and John ❤ Good article John.

  18. Dino, you are right, circumcision was a sign of faith that Abraham already had. Abraham was declared righteous (justified before God), and it says so before in the passage. Circumcision was an outward sign to others of their identification of belief in the promise.

    7 “BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
    AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
    8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

    9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

    13For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

  19. Jack, just as circumcision became a mere cultural identification for some Jews, baptism and “church” have become a mere cultural identifier for many religious folks who have never understood, nor believed, the gospel.

  20. Dino

    Yes, we believe that dispensational study of the Bible is vital to understanding the differences and similarities of the OT and the NT.

    Circumcision was an OT token of belief in the coming Messiah. Of course as time went by it became a ritual, an a mere identification as a Jew.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  21. I have a question

    It says here in Romans 4:11
    And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

    So People in the old testament who believed in Jesus Christ Alone (since he has been written already in the Old testament) Receives circumcision as a token or a mark that they have trusted him alone right? it’s like the same with baptism where we make a public declaration of our faith. Circumcision is the same with baptism as a form of public declaration of what they have accepted and believed.

    I’ve been studying passages in the OT since some of my friends justifies LS using OT Verses. I believe in dispensation and we are in the Age of grace and there are very few who understand this in our country. But I just want to cover all bases so that I can defend what I believe. Thanks!

  22. Dino

    Yes you are right. The evidence of saved sinners is throughout the Bible. A good example is in the book of 1st Corinthians… a whole church of saved sinners.. some openly. And they were rebuked for their sinful behavior by the Apostle Paul — However, he never told that they were never saved or he never told that they had lost their salvation.

    Praying for you as you share Jesus Christ with your friends..

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  23. Question:

    My Friend asked me who I was trying to win. She asked me, If Christ saved me from my sin, am I still considered a “sinner”?

    I told her. “When we got saved, we got a spiritual birth that none of us can see. But we know we have it because we Believed(trusted) in Christ alone for salvation. Here is my shot on your question. Yes, We are still sinners because God never took away our old nature. It’s still there. Rather We are Sinners SAVED by grace. That’s a better way to put it”

    Am I correct with that statement?

  24. Nathan

    From your past statements I figured you agreed — But it had to be clarified.

    Thanks for your participation here at ExP.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  25. Jack,

    Thank you, I agree with your correction, “We do not give Him our lives but we are entrusting our eternal salvation into His hands and believing He will deliver, regardless of our life. Because HE WILL!! ”

    The correct word “entrusting” I could never “give” Him anything to merit His Free Gift of Salvation. He is the Giver not me.

  26. Nathan

    You quoted the error:
    “He offers salvation to all people as a gift, but He asks that we give Him our lives in return.”

    And you said: “It is either FREE or it costs something!”

    You are right SALVATION HAS NO STRINGS ATTACHED.. It IS a Free Gift!!!

    You said: “By believing in Him in the first place aren’t we ALREADY giving Him our lives??”

    Nathan, I know you understand this fine point — but that would imply a swap in gift, our life in exchange for His salvation. No swapping of a life for a gift. Then it would no longer be a gift as the definition of a gift is, No Payment.. no cost — a Gift is FREE.

    We do not give Him our lives but we are entrusting our eternal salvation into His hands and believing He will deliver, regardless of our life. Because HE WILL!!

    It is great when Believers determined to serve Him as best they are able. That is neither an obligation nor a mandate but a privilege.

    Nathan, Lordship Salvationists insist that Faith is not enough and lead a person to question their faith because they want religion to conform to their standards — for power, prestige, more insecure frightened members and above all MONEY-$$$. The LS industry is the most money grubbing religion in the world and keeps their followers in fear of failure to live up to the leader’s standards.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  27. Nathan, Charles Stanley is a false teacher.

  28. One more,on the subject of Charles Stanley, from his sermon outline “A Saving Faith”:

    Contrasting “intellectual faith” with “saving faith”:

    “A. Intellectual Faith (Natural Faith) – Believing something is true without proof or commitment. For example, a person can intellectually believe Jesus was a real person who performed miracles but not accept that He was God in Man.

    C. Saving Faith – Believing in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. A living person, for the forgiveness of sin and trusting Him because He provides eternal life with God. It isn’t enough to simply believe in the actions of Jesus Christ or the abilities of God. True saving faith is more than that; it is a personal relationship with the Savior.”

    My comment: Notice under intellectual faith that he says “without proof or commitment”? Then, Stanley gives an example of someone not believing in Christ’s deity. This is deceptive. Charles Stanley asserts that failure to commit to Christ is mere “intellectual faith”, but then gives disbelief in the deity of Christ as an example. This could only lead to one conclusion: Charles Stanley thinks that if someone is convinced of Christ’s deity, he will “commit” to Him.

    Later, same sermon outline:

    “A. A person who has saving faith both knows the truth of scripture and practices it (Rom. 1:32).

    B. Even demons and the devil have intellectual faith. We must both believe and bear fruit (James 2:18-20).

    C. Jesus is addressed as “Lord” 185 times in the gospels. This is important to note because it shows that the disciples recognized His lordship. This truth is the foundation of our faith, the bedrock upon which everything else is built.

    D. Those who believe must also express repentance for sin if we truly acknowledge Jesus as our as
    Savior (Luke 24:45-48; Acts 2:36-38). Repentance and faith go hand in hand.”

    MY CONCLUSION: CHARLES STANLEY IS A FALSE TEACHER WHO IS NOT CONSISTENT IN PRESENTING THE GOSPEL AND CANNOT BE TRUSTED. WE ARE TO MARK AND AVOID MEN WHO TEACH THE ABOVE LIES AS IF THEY WERE THE GOSPEL!

  29. It really is quite confusing. It’s like making God into a task master or a probation officer.

    The second sentence in the above quote, “He offers salvation to all people as a gift, but He asks that we give Him our lives in return.” It’s that word “but” that is ALWAYS placed there by man. There are no buts about it with salvation. It is either FREE or it costs something!

    By believing in Him in the first place aren’t we ALREADY giving Him our lives?? After all, to believe in a Savior is to cease from trying to save yourself and you become totally dependent on the One doing the saving? Haven’t I at that moment acknowledged that He already is Lord because He is the only One Who can save? It has already happened at the point of belief, now get on with life and be free to live within the Gift He has given you. Grow in His Grace.

    Why must people insist that it is not enough place complete faith in His finished work? Why must they lead you question your faith alone in Christ? These are games which should not be played. This is the most important thing determining the fate of a persons eternal life! It becomes then a subconscious question within the hearer as to who is the one doing the saving.

    Assurance is thwarted because you question whether or not you are worthy of salvation. What a slap in the face of the One doing the saving!

    Please correct me if I am wrong.

  30. Here is another “gem” from Charles Stanley’s article entitled “Is America Blessing God?”:

    “Most of all, we are to share the gospel. Our fellow citizens need to know about the freedom and forgiveness Christ offers to all who surrender their lives to Him.”

  31. Charles Stanley’s website (intouch.org) is a series of contradictions. Following are some quotes under the tab “God: Know Him”:

    “Jesus’ victory on the cross was for everyone, including you. He offers salvation to all people as a gift, but He asks that we give Him our lives in return. How can we do this? By believing in Him, turning from our sins, and asking Him to be the Lord – the ruler and guide – of our lives.”

    And then later:

    “There’s no need to put off receiving Gid’s gift of salvation. You don’t need to clean yourself up first, start behaving better, or anything of the sort before you can become a follower of Jesus.”

    An article on the site entitled “How Do I accept Jesus as my Savior?” has this quote:

    “It all starts with accepting Jesus Chriat as your Lord and Savior.”

    And, from sermon outlines, “God’s Call to Genuine Repentance”:

    “Salvation is an internal change that results in external action.”

  32. There is a chapter on Charles Stanley in Michael Bowen’s book “I Never Knew You”. See link below:

    https://expreacherman.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/i-never-knew-you-bowen.pdf

  33. charles Stanley beleives in eternal security but he also beleives that a true christian does,nt practice sin and uses 1 John as a test to see if you are truly saved. So really he beleives in works for salvation and a true christian will persevere . Which is wrong as the corinthians got saved but did,nt get back in fellowship with God after salvation as they were being led by their flesh and that time of being out of fellowship with God was 3 years until paul sent a letter to set them right to repent and start growing and start walking in true love to one another . Plus I read his testimony he got saved by simply beleiving on jesus as a kid but then was told that he now had to maintain his salvation which led him to serve God under a cloud of fear. He finally realised after much study that salvation was eternal and could,nt lose it . And to Beleive that you could would led to a gospel of works. So somewhere along the line from his book explaining eternal security he has lost the plot and got into works again. I also think he got into dereck prince teaching who is strongly lordship Salvationist.

  34. Nathan, that’s wonderful. I hope your friend will just start spending time in His Word. His Word is where we get our assurance as we know He does not lie. So knowing His Word girds us up, keeps up shield of faith strong against the fiery darts of the enemy and helps us in the spiritual battle. Luke 10:38-42 has long been a reminder for me for ‘feet time’ as I call it. We need time at the feet of the Saviour hearing His Word.

  35. Jack, exactly. Not audibly but by His Word.

  36. Johninnc, Jack, Jim and others,
    I truly appreciate your responses to my earlier post regarding objective assurance of salvation. In a sense, you guys along with Tom Cucuzza and Ralph Arnold are my ‘pastors and elders’ as I am learning new things here that I had not been taught earlier locally here in Australia despite going to many churches and Bible-studies for many years. Of course I am exercising my God-given responsibility to be a ‘Berean’ checking you against Scriptures.

    Jim, thank you for the links you posted for me reassuring me of my salvation based purely on Christ’s promises in the Bible rather than relying on subjective feelings or evidence through my ‘works’ in my Christian walk.

    Right from the beginning of my Christian experience, I had been taught that
    salvation is a gift of grace based on Christ’s finished work on the cross BUT I still had to ‘turn from my sin, repent of my sinful life-style’ to get saved, and beyond that I was taught that I had to give evidence of my salvation by my ‘works’ although these works were never specified or quantified clearly to me.

    So basically I was under LS without knowing it all those years and I have to question if I was truly saved back then many years ago, as I was never presented the clear, simple Gospel of Grace of Christ from get-go. Of course Johninnc is correct in saying that there are some now under LS that
    are saved if they believed the Grace Gospel when they first heard the true Gospel. I am just relating my personal experience and I believe that I am NOW truly saved as I am trusting in Christ alone, not my ‘evidence of works’.
    It scares me to think that had I died while under LS, I would have heard the terrifying words of Jesus: Depart from Me, I never knew you’…!!

    Gospel but have now fallen into error.

  37. Nathan

    Thanks for relating your experience with your friend. We will be praying that he truly understands God’s Grace salvation in Jesus Christ alone and that you two will have a blessed fellowship in Jesus.

    In Jesus Christ alone. Jack

  38. Jack,

    Thank you for your above comments. It is actually refreshing to be free of the flesh and it’s subjective “feelings” when it comes to standing on God’s truth. I remember in scripture that the devil tried to tempt Jesus based on His feelings after a 40 day fast, through food, prestige and power. This is why I have been memorizing and meditating on His promises from His Word. His Word never fails where my flesh would fail.

    Too many times I tried to think I needed to “feel” my way into assurance. But God’s Word stands true whether I subjectively feel it or not. I don’t have to drum up some sort of feelings to prove what I believe! God already sees into the heart and knows what a person believes. It is actually a relief to be able to stand on the truth of God’s Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone.

    Also, I had an encouraging conversation with a friend of mine at work today. About a month ago I began to speak to him about the definition of LS and how it has been messing up peoples lives. At that time, a month ago, I told him how God’s gift of eternal life is totally free by simply believing in the finished work of Jesus Christ alone to those who simply believe and not by anything we do or have to do. I laid out the best I could what I have been learning about and how negatively LS can affect a persons thinking on their assurance of salvation. I don’t remember all that I said at the time but what was great about today’s talk is that my friend said ever since we had that conversation he has had a totally different outlook on his prayer life. He said that he prays out of thankfulness now rather than obligation. He said that he is seeing a freedom that he hasn’t experienced before. He said he always felt like a piece of garbage before because all he did was beg forgiveness hoping that he asked God the right way, so he could try to believe God really did forgive him. He said it’s all different now.

    Please pray for my friend that we can continue to cultivate this fellowship in the true Spirit of Christ and he and I can both continue to grow in Grace together.

  39. John John

    Thanks for some great words and thoughts.

    However you said, “I found a beautiful truth there: TODAY, if you hear His voice…do not harden your heart.”

    I might point out that believers do not listen for or hear God speak to us audibly as some “small voice,” but as we read, understand and/or recall God’s Word from His Holy Bible. Small point but important.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  40. Bruce (and Ref. Alice)

    Thanks for visiting with us here at ExP again.

    While I agree with your statement that objective confirmation should come from God’s Word, I reject your comment, “Subjective confirmation of being born again should come in time.” In fact I reject the concept of subjective confirmation for assurance. We cannot ever confirm our salvation or assurance upon our behavior or works (subjective).

    For a believer to wrestle with subjective confirmation (introspection) is to undermine their assurance. They may say to themselves (subjective) “Have I quit sinning, or do I sin less, am I doing enough good works for the Lord, and by whose standards, etc.”

    It is only assurance if it comes from God’s Word and, as John said above, assurance depends upon Whom we are believing for eternal life, only Jesus Christ alone, with NO reliance upon subjective confirmation.

    One among many scriptures which can confirm one’s assurance is:
    1 John 5:13
    “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

    We rest our assurance upon God’s Word in context.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  41. Alice, I failed to mention two other thoughts:

    1. From “The Gospel” booklet by Ron Shea:

    “According to this verse (John 5:24), how can you be sure that you have truly been saved?

    – You can be sure that you have truly been saved if your life begins to change, showing that God has really come into your life.

    – You can be sure that you have truly been saved if you bear the fruit of good works.

    – You can be sure that you have truly been saved if many years from now you are still walking with Christ.

    – You can be sure that you have truly been saved if you heard the gospel and believed it.”

    (HINT: THE ONLY CORRECT ANSWER IS THE LAST ONE)

    2. From the “Statement of Faith”, Calvary Community Church:

    “We believe the only evidence of salvation is whom a person is trusting to get him to heaven. We believe it is heresy to teach that a person can know he is saved or lost because of his behavior, or for others to believe a person is saved or lost because of his behavior. (Galatians 2:16; Romans 4:5; 11:6).

  42. Hi Alice,

    Subjective confirmation of being born again should come in time but you are right to focus upon the objective confirmation from the Word of God. Here are some favorite verses of mine:

    John 10:27-30 King James Version (KJV)

    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.

    John 5:24 King James Version (KJV)

    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Romans 8:38-39 King James Version (KJV)

    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  43. From my own tortured experience as a blown-and-tossed believer, I am convinced one of the key strategies of Satan is to poison Scripture in the mind of man. Before one can ever see the abject, sheer, blatant GOODNESS and KINDNESS of GOD…there must be a “poisoning of the well”, so to speak:

    “Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well)—a rhetorical device where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say.” (Wikipedia)

    Take Hebrews, dreaded Hebrews! Warnings to a specific audience are lifted and applied to any and every…MINUS the confident hope of the writer that his recipients aren’t really going to fall away. “Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, BELOVED, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.”

    If you know and love the Psalms, Hebrews will open up as a beautiful flower for you. Glorious truths are contained within. Great HOPE is within. BUT YOU MUST TAKE IT AS A WHOLE.

    I found a beautiful truth there: TODAY, if you hear His voice…do not harden your heart. Also, discipline = God is treating you as a SON! Proverbs links its wisdom as training and correction. OUCH. When and where did my nice God turn mean on me? Hey, believer, WELCOME TO THE FAMILY! Put on the whole armor of God.

    And what about that awesome cloud of witnesses?! Lovely Moses, born of fearless parents who feared GOD and not a king!. Rahab the prostitute, a stick in the eye to anyone who doubts the value of faith to God! The “others”, who had clearly gone outside the camp and of who the world was not worthy! Etc.

    But there is the enemy of our soul, firing his flaming arrows at us and using even well-meaning believers to poison God’s beautiful well before we ever get to “taste and see that the LORD is good”.

    Time to grab that shield of faith, believers!

  44. Dino, I think Acts 3:19 does relate to eternal salvation. However, the term “repent” means a change of mind. Please read the explanation from Clear Gospel, linked below:

    http://old.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=27&c_id=229

  45. Alice,

    Along the lines of what Johninnc said above, even Peter almost fell into deception and he walked with Jesus personally. It took Paul correcting him to get him back on track with the true gospel. Read Galatians and you will see it.

    Galatians 2:11-12
    11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
    12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

  46. I was reading this post from this same blogsite

    https://expreacherman.com/2012/12/04/southern-baptists-fragile-detente-the-fight-over-competing-false-gospels-calvinism-and-lordship-salvation/

    I was trying to find out if Jerry had replied after asking if repentance is a work. After arguments were presented to him, He never replied back. I mean I was crying while reading it. I would be intimidated if the person I get to debate with was a Doctor of Theology and you guys, by the Lords Help, presented the Gospel with clearness that cannot be refuted. I have read debates, but this is the 1st time I read a debate from a doctor of theology who believes in LS against those who believes in freegrace and I learned ALOT!

    I write down in a notebook about the things I have learned to convince people who believes in LS. And I was challenged this week by Acts 3:19

    Acts 3:19
    King James Version (KJV)
    Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

    If I interpret this right, This does not pertain to salvation right? rather it’s the same thing that happened to Jonah 3:10 wherein people repented and God changed his mind about them? please correct me if I am wrong…

  47. Alice, some people who are under LS are saved. They believed in Jesus as Savior, apart from works, and then became confused.

    I think the following quote from Clear Gospel is instructive:

    We acknowledge that believers may fall into error or confusion regarding salvation and works after their conversion, as happened to the church of Galatia (Galatians 1:6-7. 3:1). We further acknowledge that the believers of Galatia were regarded as “brethren,” (Galatians 1:3), having fallen into this grievous error subsequent to their coming to an authentic faith in Christ (Galatians 3:1-3). We note, however, that the authors of this grievous error, who had never believed on Christ alone, having simply added Jesus Christ to a pre-existing confession of salvation by works (Acts 15:1) were regarded as “false brethren.” (Galatians 2:4). To this end, we affirm that a lost sinner must, at some time in his life, believe on Christ alone, apart from the works of the law, for his salvation, and that apart from such an authentic moment of saving faith, there is no hope of salvation.

    Romans 8:16 should not be interpreted to mean that we can know we are saved based on our feelings. Our feelings can come and go. I interpret Romans 8:16 to mean that the Holy Spirit bears witness, along with our human spirit bearing witness, that we are children of God – that is, we (both us and the Holy Spirit) were there when we believed in Jesus as Savior. There are two witnesses to God that we have believed.

    So, how can you know OBJECTIVELY, that you have received eternal life? You can know based on God’s promises. That is the only reasonable basis for assurance.

    John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

  48. Alice, your last sentence their is how you know. Your confidence is in Christ alone. We can trust Him for and know it is settled.

    Jim F

  49. How can I know OBJECTIVELY (NOT SUBJECTIVELY) that I am NOW truly born-again, and have a relationship and fellowship with Christ when all of those 15 years as a ‘Christian’ that I was under LS, I deceived myself thinking that I was saved and had a relationship with Christ? Romans 8:16 says that the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. All of those years that I thought I was a child of God and now I realise was NOT because I was under LS. If I was relying on my SUBJECTIVE feelings and experiences to reassure me that I was a child of God, how can I be absolutely certain NOW that this FREE GRACE position that I have arrived at, that I am rightly dividing the Word of Truth?
    If John MacArthur can deceive himself by thinking that he is a born-again child of God based on his feelings while claiming that the Word of God and the Holy Spirit both bear witness with his spirit, how can I ever be 100% sure that I am correct? If Tom Cucuzza and Ralph Arnold are correct in saying that those under LS are NOT saved, and that the only correct position is the free-grace position, can I be certain that this time I got the correct Gospel? Now under the Grace of God, I am trusting ONLY in the finished work of Christ and NOT my works for both receiving and maintaining my salvation.

  50. Thanks heaps for your thoughts on this issue Holly, I really value it.

    My words were a bit ‘forceful’ so I apologise as I have a tendancy to write how I think and am hasty in that respect. (eek)

    I can see how you arrive at your conclusion from those verses but I’m still not convinced that ‘wages’ necessarily means ‘salary’ like we know the word to mean today.

    I just cannot reconcile a servant being paid. And given the context being Apostles in 1 Cor 9, I do not believe Paul is talking about elders/pastors at all. Therefore as we no longer have Apostles today “preaching the gospel” (not labouring over sermons), I do not believe 1 Cor 9 nor 2 Cor 11 are even about elders/pastors permanently situated in church buildings.

    It cannot be about elders/pastors, because the context is about Apostles. Specifcally, about the Apostle Paul.

    “Preach the gospel of God” does not equate to “create sermons about bible doctrine and speak from a pulpit”… in my opinion.

    Preach the gospel is literally, preach the gospel.

    Now, that said, if we want to take liberty with 1 Cor 9 then we ought to be giving wages to every Christian who “preaches the gospel”.

    I preach the gospel. You preach the gospel.

    Why is it that the pastor (whose function, not title) only gets one or so mentions in the whole of the NT, yet he is the one who gets the priviledge of wages/salary?

    You wrote:

    “So, no, I still see no problem with them taking a livable wage for working and preaching the gospel. A pastor preaches the gospel, so is there some verses that prohibit elders and overseers from receiving wages?”

    Not there is not.

    But as I mentioned above, given 1 Cor 9 and 2 Cor 11 is specifically about Apostles and Paul in particular, the question I must ask is this:

    Is there some verse that prohibits believers like you and I from receiving wages from “labouring in the word”?

    I am fully convinced that this modern day church building Christianity with its salaried to serve clergymen, is looking much like the harlot of Rome but with a new dress.

    Perhaps I’m being too critical.

    I know I’ve been blessed by hearing sermons from churchmen.

    But I have also witnessed a whole lot more nonsense which fails to be justified in light of the Word of God.

    Happy to start taking a salary for my efforts in labouring for Jesus. 😛

    Then again, I am a woman.

    Maybe I ought to keep silent. 😉

  51. Growing old, you can get Tom Cucuzza’s sermons at Northland Bible Baptist Church’s website.

  52. Growing Old Gracefully

    I am really enjoying reading the posts and comments. Can you please tell me who is safe out there to read their books or listen to their sermons? I bought Thomas Cucuzza’s book so am thankful to have that.

  53. Sorry John John – I had two calls coming in and pressed post, but many of us would rather not have any support from people, and I understand why.

  54. With the Corinthians, we know where they were coming from, and they were carnal, and also identifying with men vs. God, and they were also questioning his apostleship. It was a wise move to not be beholden to them in their own eyes, although rightfully he could have expected them to provide for him.

  55. Holly, it is interesting to me that Paul did NOT want to be deprived of his boast! He declares in different letters “I am telling you the truth, I am not lying”. We know he was often opposed and considered false, and thus vigorously defended his calling by Christ. Part of that defense was his lifestyle.

    Aside from being ABLE to take a wage from preaching, why so (seemingly) few men desire a boast along with Paul? I guess his point about remaining single is key, since someone who has to look after a wife and children can’t choose that particular road ( and would be faced with challenges Paul was not).

  56. BeholdaSon, here is how I look on it. Whether the ones we have now taking wages are receiving money preach sermons or the Bible, is not really what I speak to. I speak to the Word and to how believers are instructed.

    The Jews had been in buildings prior to becoming believers of course, and they did still preach in the synagogue. The house churches were what was going on in the beginning of church, it did not set some sort of Biblical standard to say all other types of meetings were wrong (Frank Viola and Leonard Sweet tried to helped convince people house churches were the only way. You’re probably familiar with the ‘organic church’ and also their joint book, Jesus Manifesto, but if you know them, they are to be marked and avoided. So I take their ‘history’ also, and stick with my liberty that I have in Christ. As long as we are not breaking some guideline in the Scriptures, I’m not so concerned what they say happened. I understand what the word church means, but there is to be accountability, and so I suppose it depends on the gathering size. Jack had a church he pastored, and I imagine he received a salary, not sure. Tom Cucuzza pastors a church praise God and I imagine he receives some wages unless he is independently wealthy. I am more concerned as to whether they have the requirements the Word requires of elders.

    A church has a basic set up in who the elders and bishops/overseers are to be, and the manner in which they are to live, be examples, take heed to the flock, warn the flock, take heed to the doctrine, etc.

    The fact that there were home churches doesn’t mean there were not larger places they were meeting, nor that somehow that was forbidden.. We do not know that, nor are we instructed in must be in a home. As for the apostles just being messengers,, they were sent indeed, but they were the foundation of the church, along with Christ. We don’t have apostles today. Churches growing too large without proper accountability and men not contending for the faith, and the end, being many deceivers are just some of our problems in ‘churches’ today.

    But regarding pay; 1 Cor 9, in more context.

    13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. 15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void. 16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

    The second passage more context.

    Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely? I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service. And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself. 2 Cor 11:7-9

    So, no, I still see no problem with them taking a livable wage for working and preaching the gospel. A pastor preaches the gospel, so is there some verses that prohibit elders and overseers from receiving wages? I appreciate your opinion, I really do, I just didn’t see any Word to dispute what I had offered. I hope this helps explain a little further. Open also to any Scriptures that prohibit pastors from getting paid. Or allowing them to drive a car 🙂

  57. Holly and others,

    to be fair to the text, is 1 Corinthians 9 talking about messengers who travelled around ‘preaching the gospel’? or is it talking about men who sit in offices within buildings wrongly called churches to write sermons which are nowhere found in Scripture?

    I ask this honestly.

    1 Corinthians 9 is absolutely not talking about Pastors. Let’s be honest.

    In the context Paul is not referring to the modern day Pastor and to suggest such is to bend the Word in order to fit the unbiblical notion that a servant should be salaried to serve.

    People met in houses not “churches” wrongly called. There was no paid Pastor in the Scriptures. You find no example of a man called “The Pastor” in the Bible. I’m open for correction, but stick to the Text.

    If “honor” is used to mean wages… we ought to also start giving widows salaries too.

    What is 1 Corinthians 9 REALLY saying?

    Because Pastors were not given salaries until temples started being built in the second something Century.

    Food for thought.

    Open to be corrected, providing the Scriptures are used in the context within which they were written.

    In love.

  58. Seems sometimes he took wages from others, and sometimes worked, (tentmaker). Here is another.

    Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely? I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service. 2 Cor 11:7-8

  59. BeholdaSon, I don’t have a problem with it exactly, if they are full-time pastors, a worker is worthy of his wages (1 Tim 5), and this has been used to say they are to be paid.

    Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. 1 Cor 9:14

    It’s when they start going out and they compromise for the money, to sell their books and programs etc.

    I should have qualified too that the sheep I was speaking of is real sheep, because some who are sheep of the church, mixed in with the goats, they will bite you if you say something about their favorite wolf.

  60. Holly, you wrote:

    “Do you not think a sheep will start bleating if it recognizes a wolf walking in, and run away, or do you think a sheep will wait for the Shepherd to see? Some of our ‘shepherds’, in fact many, are hirelings.”

    I recently read a book titled “The Harlot Church System” and it opened my eyes like nothing else.

    We were at a wedding recently and one of our church pastors from the LS place said to my husband,

    “I’ve just found a new job!”.

    My hubby was thinking that he meant a tradesman job (plumbing) etc. but he meant that he got a new job as a Pastor.

    A job.

    That’s what a hireling is.

    He is a salaried servant.

    My question for any man who is paid to serve is this:

    Would you still serve as an undershepherd if you weren’t being paid?

    I don’t see any justification in the Scriptures for a salaried servant.

    In fact, I might suggest that the very concept is contradicted by Pastor Paul’s own personal example.

  61. Dino, I feel for you bc I’ve been there.

    Too many times.

    When I first came to faith in Christ I was 14. The only Christian in my family, my local church was my new family.

    At the age of 17 I started to realise that the Cross and sin was not talked about from the pulpit. I just knew this was wrong.

    When I left that place, for the first time since becoming a believer, I had no Christian friends.

    But deep in my heart I just knew the Lord was pleased that I chose to follow Him by simply walking away.

    Often times, doing what is right is the hardest decision to make.

    But you just know that it’s what He wants.

    The phrase I would always tell myself in the lonely times…

    “God is more than enough”.

    and He truly is.

  62. Thank you so much Holly. I got home at around 12am last night and my office time would be around 6. lol. But I said to myself “That’s okay, Always remember that none of us cannot be sure if we would get to live the next day so while you have the opportunity to share the Gospel, grab it”

  63. I was able to share last night. she was coming to church longer than I was. I think she’s been LS for 7 years. I pray God can use the preachings I gave her from Yankee and Tom to break the LS barrier in her heart. She didn’t say a word against me last night. She listened with caution and I knew she was discerning me. I told her if you find me to be a liar, you can delete all those preachings and forget about me as a friend. that was my dare. I hope she realizes the seriousness of my response. I believe it works to a point if a person would put their friendship on the line for the clarity of the Gospel. It would compel those who they are trying to reach to listen and to give them a chance.

    I remember Yankee said about LS referring to it as a “monster” created by people. I hate to say this but yeah. He is right. LS is a monster devouring souls. and unless someone is sent by Jesus and helps that soul get out of it, they won’t. their trapped. Only Jesus Christ can set them free and that is what he did to me.

  64. Dino, I have prayed for you too. I’d like to say it get’s easier, in some ways it does, in some ways worse, but that’s when we can rejoice we can be counted worthy to partake in some of His suffering. They hated Him, they will hate us. I just don’t think we expected it within the church. We have to remember it’s a spiritual battle, and keep reminding ourselves. Pray for them, speak the truth of God’s powerful Word to them, trusting it will not return void, but will accomplish what He sent it to do. Keep preaching the gospel remembering it has power.

    We have one Master. I know it’s hard with family and friends and even ones who agree with you, but may feel you go too far. Some of my family members do not think I should name names. I just give them the verses, and one recently got it. I don’t try to convince, I just keep saying, I do it because, and I use Romans 16:17-18 and bring up Hymenaeus, and Alexander and Philetus, and Diotrephes and some want to tell me I’m not the apostle Paul (of course I knew that) 🙂 But Rom 16 is pretty clear, and Jude 3, we are all to do this, not just elders or leaders, but all the brethren.

    Do you not think a sheep will start bleating if it recognizes a wolf walking in, and run away, or do you think a sheep will wait for the Shepherd to see? Some of our ‘shepherds’, in fact many, are hirelings. We knew this would be so. Many deceived, many deceivers in the end. Not a few… So, praise God we have this wonderful opportunity in this exciting time, we are tired, but we do not want to weary in doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. (Gal 6:9)

    God bless you, I pray with Jack and John, for your encouragement and boldness to speak the truth in love. Col 4:5-6

  65. Nathan, it’s like sleight of hand. There are the pastors like MacArthur who mouth the lie that they believe in salvation by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ. While with the other side of their mouth they preach a works laden gospel.

    Then there are those who teach one way with one crowd, a different way with another. Some seem to just stick their toes in the water, they’ll throw out a couple quotes by men they know their audience will like, possibly it’s about upping their income level, all the while under the guise of ‘getting the gospel out there’. Why can’t I easily find the gospel then on their sites?

    It infuriates me and breaks my heart at the same time, I am tired of their excuses, and I await their attempts at flattery and psychology 101 when I first ask them about it, later I am condescended to and usually they either get mad or stop responding. I don’t get it, I truly don’t. The only thing I can come up with is either fame, money, support, whatever. Men pleasers….

  66. As for Stanley, oddly, I was recently blocked by one who called me a false teacher for bringing Stanley’s ‘inconsistencies’ to her. Straight from his page, they always tell you it is out of context somehow. They cannot be that tossed about. They are either unsaved, or they are deceivers, or doubleminded and unstable in all their ways, immature in the milk of the world. But worse, they are still deceived, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, and they mislead others in the process.

    I saw a guy who is supposedly free grace, that we discussed his ecumenism, and on his page, he is quoting Spurgeon as one of those who does teach the ‘turn or burn’ type sermons. I almost choked at the irony. Lack of knowledge? Ignorance? Or just bad company corrupts good morals.

  67. Amazing John on the declaration, serving up a one world church lickety split…. There is no doubt that every religion in the world is about the works of men, while someone attributing it all to God supposedly, whoever that god may be. Not surprised at all, my friends and I really believe the reformed religion will have much impact and indeed is having a huge ‘revival’ and is sneaking privily into many churches.

  68. Growing Old Gracefully

    Bob Gilbert, you wrote: “PLEASE do not ask LOST PEOPLE to live as Christians in order to be saved!” This has to be the most profound quote I have read in a long time. That is it in a nutshell. People are turned off by the religiosty of LS’ers. They miss out on the precious, simple truth of trusting in Christ alone. Thank you to the blessed folk who run this site. My family came out of a LS fellowship (filled with ex-Open Brethren who really hadn’t left Brethrenism at all). I did not realise Dr Charles Stanley is LS. Thank you for pointing that out.

  69. I was astonished to hear Dr. Stanley’s message on Sunday October 26th – a message that informs lost people that they must do everything that is involved in discipleship in order to be saved! This message is FAR AWAY from the truth declared in the Bible (and in the In Touch doctrinal statement) that salvation is by grace through faith, without meritorious works.

    Any lost person listening to Dr. Stanley’s October 26th message will either TRY VERY HARD to merit God’s favor, doing what Dr. Stanley said to do – or just throw up his hands in despair, know that he cannot do what Dr. Stanley described.

    PLEASE do not ask LOST PEOPLE to live as Christians in order to be saved!

  70. Dino,

    We understand and are praying for your strength and boldness — as you share the Gospel of our Savior Jesus.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  71. Dino, I have just prayed for you, that you will have strength, courage, and wisdom as you witness to your friend.

  72. After leaving our LS church and now that I am looking for a new one. I feel isolated. this is something new to me… I feel isolated not because I want to isolate myself, but because I got out of something that I thought I would never get out of. I never have thought that it had to come to this.. The world’s in a mess and the last thing I need is to go leave our church that teaches LS. I’m not blaming anyone. It was my choice and I somehow saw this coming. I feel the peace of Christ in my heart but at the same time I feel the guilt and the sadness of making the choice of leaving something that at first I thought was the real thing…

    If the gospel was this easy. Just trusting Christ as Savior, who died for our sins, alone to save one from the penalty of hell then why can’t alot of folks figure this out? It’s just too easy… I have some churchmates here who are in a relationship and I gave this friend of mine the “I never knew you” book and she hasn’t read it yet even after I gave it like months ago.. I know she’s afraid and she has this boyfriend who is one of the leaders of our church and so I understand her. I found out that emotion is powerful that it can blind a person. It put’s a veil in our eyes and it’s very hard to take it off…

    tonight I am about to witness to a friend. 1 hour from now I will give her a copy of yankee’s preachings. I feel a mix of fear and boldness and I don’t know what exactly to feel… I can’t get rid of the burden. I’m scared. I don’t wanna be known as someone who is trying destroy our church. I hate this. At first she asked me why I left the church even if I told her that I can’t tell her cause I don’t want anyone telling me why am I teaching things the church does not teach and it is affecting their members…. She persisted and I can’t resist her.. Chirst feely gave the Gospel so who am I to deny this truth to her. just like the persistent widow..

    please pray for me. I need the strength to go on doing this…

  73. Nathan, I think Ephesians 6:12 and 2 Corinthians 4:4 fit perfectly into this theme.

    By the way, yesterday was Reformation Sunday in reformed churches across America.

    Following is an excerpt from an online publication called “The Fountain Pen”. The article, by Rev. Robert Lyon, is entitled “The Celebration of Reformation Sunday”:

    For the last fifteen years we have had even more cause for celebration. On 31 October 1999, representatives of the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation assembled in Augsburg, Germany, and together they signed the “Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification”. The central passage of that Declaration says: “Together we confess: by grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping us and calling us to good works.” The declaration acknowledges that any good works we do are our response to God’s grace, not the cause of our receiving it. In 2006 the World Methodist Council also signed the Declaration.

  74. Jack, I believe Charles Stanley held a prominent position in the Southern Baptist Convention at one point.

    If so, it would not have been possible for him to have consistently taught a clear gospel message AND ascend to a position of prominence in that apostate organization.

    If Charles Stanley believes the gospel, and alternates between preaching the gospel and preaching false gospels, that would give us a third category of LSers. Those that know and believe the gospel, but willfully teach lies.

  75. This quote from above reminds me of something…..”Religion and politics are very similar. In both you are trying to appeal to the most people that you can to draw the biggest audience. ”

    Oh yea, now I remember what it reminds me of. A great deception will come through a combination of politics and false religion during the tribulation. The beast and the false prophet working together.

    How telling that Raymond Cothran tied these 2 together with their similarity of…… “In both, you will say what you have to say no matter if it is true or not. In both, you will play both sides of the fence in order to convince both that you are on their side.”

    It’s like watching a dress rehearsal.

  76. From a friend, Raymond Cothran,

    who illustrates the folly and double mindedness of Lordship “salvation.” He writes a regular post on FB every Sunday entitled:

    Groundhog Church Day

    Religion and politics are very similar. In both you are trying to appeal to the most people that you can to draw the biggest audience. In both, you will say what you have to say no matter if it is true or not. In both, you will play both sides of the fence in order to convince both that you are on their side.

    I was listening to Charles Stanley this morning and he was a different Charles from a few weeks ago. A few weeks ago he was preaching that Salvation is not of any human good. The only thing you could do to be saved was to believe in Jesus Christ. (Correct theology) Today he was preaching works for salvation. The total opposite of what he said a few weeks ago. Here is what he said:

    In order to be saved

    “you have to give up your old ways.” (Not believe)
    “you have to turn from sin” (Not believe)
    “you have to surrender your life” (Not believe)
    “There has got to be a change in your life.” (Not believe)
    “Belief is an action word. There must be action” (Not believe)
    “If you believe, you will surrender” (Not believe)
    “You cannot practice sin” (Not believe)

    All of the above phases are works for salvation and it amazes me that people did not get up and walk out, but that is the state of the church today. Many churches would be happy to have Charles but no matter how good he sounds, or how big the church, salvation will always be by the grace of God. Freely given to us when we believe. If you have to do something, you don’t believe.

    Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

  77. John,

    Thanks !!!

    This is a classic….

    Interesting, clever use of Paul’s quote “I Marvel” and fun to read… but dead serious in content!!!

    It should awaken lots of slumbering LS folks around the world.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

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