Lordship Salvation: Believing in Vain

By johninnc

Galatians 2:21: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The word “vain” appears in the New Testament 38 times. In the context above, vain means “useless” or “ineffectual.”

There are three crucial points to Galatians 2:21.

First, Paul doesn’t participate in frustrating grace, and neither should we.  Nor should we have anything to do with those who frustrate grace.

2 John 1:10-11:

[10] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
[11] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Second, to try to be justified by the law is to frustrate grace. Like the word “vain”, the word “frustrate”, in this case, also means to make ineffectual.

Third, there is no law that could provide righteousness to mankind. If there were, then Christ need not have died to pay for our sins.

Galatians 3:21: Is the law against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

As believers in Christ, we know that Jesus has saved us completely. We know that He paid the FULL price for our sins. We know that we didn’t contribute to our salvation by forsaking our sins, confessing our sins, saying a prayer, walking an aisle, committing to reform ourselves, or by allowing Jesus to change our lives.  We know that when we believed in Jesus, we received eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.

We know that our righteousness comes from Christ, and not our attempts to keep the law, whether it be God’s perfect law or the Lordship “salvationists'” (LSers) arbitrary laws. In other words, we know that Christ is not dead in vain. We know that He is risen and alive and that we have eternal life through Him.

Romans 3:21-26:

[21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

LSers frustrate grace by insisting that simply believing in Jesus is not sufficient to either receive, keep, or evidence eternal life. In so doing, they create a false gospel of works, devoid of power to save those who trust in that false  gospel for eternal life. And, for those Christians who are duped into LS after they receive eternal life, they are robbed of any power for Christian living or evangelizing the lost.

In Romans 4, the Apostle Paul confirms that the admixture of faith in Christ PLUS works for eternal life is not possible :

Romans 4:14: For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect.

Notice the similarity between Galatains 2:21 and Romans 4:14. If we could be justified by the law, Christ is dead in vain. If those trying to be justified by the law could be justified by the law, then justification by faith is of no effect.

If you ask an LSer what “believe in vain” means, you will likely get some answer that has to do with one’s works. For example, that someone may believe in Jesus, but not have eternal life, because they haven’t turned from their sins, or they haven’t shown sufficient good works. They may throw “faith without works is dead” or “even the demons believe and they tremble” at you. They may talk about “head faith versus heart faith”, or say that “real faith is obedient faith.”

And, yet, we know that LSers don’t keep God’s laws. They may say they are trying, but trying is a work.

Galatians 3:10-11:

[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

LS is the unsupportable belief that the PERFORMANCE of works, the PROMISE of works, or the EVIDENCE of works must accompany faith in Christ in order to establish, or provide evidence, that such faith has resulted in eternal life.

Lordship “salvation” is no salvation at all. It is belief in salvation by works. It is believing in vain.

For a message of hope that is not vain, click here:  Eternal Life for You

92 responses to “Lordship Salvation: Believing in Vain

  1. Preston – lol! you dolt! (best I can do).

    I have a funny story to tell you. One night, slipped into bed, had a wonderful week (not long after my husband had died, maybe 6 mos. if my memory serves me). I was praying, and thanking the Lord for all these things, and was drifting off to sleep, and I had this horrible thought….

    “Lord! I haven’t been hated this week!” And I started to feel a little sick and worried. Was I back to living for me, and were my priorities in order? I started talking to Him again about it honestly, and told Him I didn’t want that and to show me anything I needed to do. SOMETHING had to be wrong that I had not been hated!

    So the next day, I did some work, and ten got on to FB. There was a woman who another friend and I had been having a conversation with via email, trying to explain the deity of Jesus with Scripture. She seemed to be a mixture of JW and even Mormonism. Very confused. It didn’t take long into the Scripture for her to call me antichrist. At first I was startled, and then I laughed and asked Him, “Really Lord? Antichrist?” It was a good thing my friend was on as a witness, I don’t think anyone would have believed it. She blocked us both.

    That whole day was wrought with discussions that quickly turned ugly on the part of the other person, Calvinist, lordship, Catholic, whatever it was, it didn’t seem like I missed a religion that day. Throughout the day and frequently, I was called plenty of names. I was tired! I was closing down, and I saw that this ‘pastor’ had posted an article to my page. Back then there was no option to keep people from posting on our home pages. I didn’t want to because I was so tired and worn out, but I read it… I started to delete it, but remembered to pray first, then I felt the great responsibility to answer it, for who knew who had seen this article which was full of ‘new revelation’ and ‘prophecy’ and ‘Holy Spirit fire’.

    So I began to answer. I didn’t pay attention to any posts, just one by one with Scripture, point by point, I began to address each error in the article in order. Back then FB didn’t ‘refresh’ by itself, so I did not see that the ‘pastor’ was responding to me. Nor did I know at that time that each one of the verses answered his responses perfectly, each one timed seconds after his attempt to answer.

    The Lord is so good and such a sense of humor. All I was able to see once I refreshed, were plenty of his followers attempting to answer me, however, it was the Word, and not mine, so the Word answered them back and again, seemed as if it was perfectly timed. The last response he left before ‘taking his leave’ was to call down Holy fire from heaven upon me 🙂

    So — I continued answering his error after he departed. Again, I answered with the Word, and was about 3/4 of the way through the article when the pastor’s wife came in to deal with me… (the best way I can describe her is the old t.v. show with Elvira — black dyed hair poofed up in back, long stringy at the end, only difference is she was Korean, and she had those long nails that are so long that they curl. That was her). And she told me that I was a blasphemer of the Holy Spirit. I asked her which part of His Word had blasphemed Him, and I would wait for her to give me the reference.

    She departed. I finished answering the article, three of the people there became my friend, and I blocked the pastor and his wife, and went to bed and told the Lord I’d never pray to be hated again, that He had said it would come and I’d be happy to wait for His timing next time, and I’d be thankful for the respites lol…

    Now when I have a particularly hard week, my friends ask, “Holly, you didn’t pray that you would be hated did you”? 🙂

    Others who don’t know me well I do not share these stories with, because they think you must have somehow incited it. It is interesting to think on Jesus when you sincerely pray for someone, Bless them, and they become enraged. Like pouring lighter fluid on a bonfire. It’s a sight to see. I know I have plenty in myself that I can offend without trying. But there was no guile in Jesus. He was perfect, and loving and came to save mankind not to judge them. I cannot begin to imagine what it must have been like for Him and the sheer evil and hatred towards Him that He suffered, and all for love of the world.

  2. if you look at it logically, a Jesuit, being roman catholic, would add “works” to the gospel.

    so by religious definition (doctrine), who would be closest to a true Jesuit?????

    I have not been called anything for a little while now. I must be slipping. not trying hard enough I guess. Looks like your winning that race too. 🙂

    CAN SOMEONE GET ON HERE AND CALL ME SOMETHING MEAN PLEASE!!!!??? I feel neglected.

  3. Preston – I had to laugh at some of the names, and add to it for your reading pleasure, I was told to ‘blow it out your nose Jezebel’ and ‘God hates you Holly’, and to ‘shut your trap’ and the number #1 comment I think was when I would not identify as an Arminian nor Calvinist. I said I was neither, and said I am a Christian as they were first called at Antioch.

    He called me a “Jesuit plant”. 🙂 My friends at Bible study said they were going to make fun and bring in plants and tell me those were Jesuit plants 🙂

  4. Jan, I apologize that I missed this, seems like there were a lot of good comments. I only hope and pray he might consider that fame and ‘getting the gospel out’ is not at the expense of joining hands with false teachers. So many seem to be going that way. Mix dirt with water, you’ll get mud.

  5. You’re welcome, Holly, trying to be helpful, even if I make some dumb blunders.
    Maybe I’m a bit to eager to find fault with preachers and teachers, but it seems that our Lord has given me this hawkishness towards preachers and teachers as a measure to protect me from my naivete towards people, me wanting to be subservient towards anyone proclaiming to be a leader and me wanting to trust people too much, all of which stems from my Asperger’s syndrome.

    But I’m glad you checked him anyways and found out that he is not just unconcerned about his associations, but also boasting over his accomplishments and that somehow trumps his bad associations.

    2 Corinthians 10:17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

  6. Michael Patrick Bowen, you can always join us on FB too, we have a Bible Berean group and a group that explains Calvinism and Lordship to those who will hear. I am Holly Sprenger Garcia there, Jim Floyd is there, and Bryan Roach among others who fellowship here.

  7. Jan – from above, Greg Stiers did write back. He did not address the reason for his bad associations, but he did address his many ministries, accomplishments, books. I asked him again about his associations and no response. Just wanted to fill you in, thank you for the warning, appreciate the brothers and sisters in Christ who watch out for each other.

  8. If only some would read… 🙂 People don’t understand the difference between justifying ourselves before men which is expedient before men, for unbelievers to come to know Him, for believers to be encouraged by others vs. being excluded and shown preference to as was going on in James and more. They were doing dirty deeds and if the world looked on them, I don’t think they would have been considered blameless, harmless and without rebuke (Phil 2). Nor would there be a good pattern available (Titus 2:7-8) for them to see.

  9. wow that’s a great document. I recall saving it to my Desktop but forgot to read it.

    Tom deserves an elephant sticker.

    or maybe a salary. 😛

    His work is valuable.

  10. BeholdaSon, for what it’s worth, I believe the passage addresses both parties.

  11. Johninnc, your statement, “Either way, this passage has NOTHING to do with proving whether one does or does not have eternal life” is right on! How could it, since James clearly knows his readers are “brethren” and “beloved brethren.” Otherwise James contradicts Paul’s clear declaration in Romans 4:5, concerning salvation without works, as well as Eph.2:8-9, Titus 3:5-7, etc etc. God Bless!

  12. Beholdason, I’m not sure, but I read James 2:12-13 to be the completion of the thoughts in the verses above.

    Then, verse 14 seems to be to be associated with the verses directly following (15-16).

    Either way, this passage has NOTHING to do with proving whether one does or does not have eternal life.

    I’m not sure this helps, this is just how I read it now. You might like this study from Clear Gospel:

    http://old.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=10&c_id=360

  13. God is the giver of all life. I will abide in Him for He is the source of all joy and forgiveness and love and kindness and faithfulness. The Lord Jesus Christ went with me and delivered me forever! Praise Him forever! Hallelujah!

    Psalm 52:9
    I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.

  14. Hi guys,

    Just want to comment on what David wrote above for your thoughts.

    David wrote, ” It just seems to me in context with the Epistle, the passage at hand and Scripture as a whole, that the “him” of “can faith save HIM” is not the one that has faith, but the one in need. ”

    I checked my bible today and read James again (chapters 1 and 2) and when I came to verse 14-17 I did not come away thinking that verse 14 “can faith save him?” was referring to those in need who are mentioned in verses 15 and 16.

    It seems pretty clear to me that verse 14 is referring to “though a man”.

    Would you agree?

    This is kinda important so I would like to know your thoughts.

    I seem to think Preston’s idea of “saving” in verse 14 referring to judgment in verses 12 and 13.

    James 2:14-17

    “14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

    16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

    17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”

    Sorry if I’m not making sense… I’ve been wrestling with this today.

    God is good.

    If I pray and ask him to make all of this clear, he will answer will he not?

    He is good.

  15. I think that was an a perfect way to sum everything up David, thank you.

  16. I agree with Holly 100% concerning how religion has made James 2 difficult when it is essentially clear and simple. I could hardly add anything to what you brothers & sisters have already said. It just seems to me in context with the Epistle, the passage at hand and Scripture as a whole, that the “him” of “can faith save HIM” is not the one that has faith, but the one in need. And of course, in this case, “save” has nothing to do with eternal salvation since no Gospel message is given to be received, and the recipients are called “Brethren” & “Beloved brethren” throughout. In my view, it is clear that James is exhorting the believers to reach out to those in need that they can help and do so, since their faith in Christ, though it saves them spiritually and eternally, it does nothing for the one in physical need. It takes works to “save” or deliver them from their need.

  17. DISCLAIMER:

    Most of our faithful readers here at ExP recognize the comments that Joarge made represent a Calvinist position at least and definitely a Lordship works “salvation” position with which the Bible, ExP and most of you, our faithful readers disagree.

    So please use God’s Word and much discernment to, as Holly says, “prove all things.” You will find he has taken his privilege of commenting here as an opportunity to spread his false teachings.

    Please, just use much care and Biblical discernment.

    Thanks,
    ExPreacherMan Administrators

  18. Preston, you and I must have been writing around the same time 🙂

  19. John – Load-shippers so frequently use James 2 as the Roman Catholics do, to justify whether one is saved. They need to understand whether they are saved eternally by works or not. They also need to understand what ‘saved’ means in James 2. So often people don’t understand the difference between eternal salvation, physical salvation, being saved or delivered from consequences, loss of rewards, loss of fellowship with God and other believers, etc.

    So appreciative you admins have done a ‘difficult passages’ post for that reason. In Christ eternally 🙂

  20. Joarge, I don’t think James 2 is all that complicated, just that religious men have complicated it by duplicity and corrupting minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    How can we labor for the harvest if we show preference to the prominent, and are respecter of persons as God is not?

    Would anyone ask someone as those believers in James for the reason of the hope that was within them?

    This article is about one believing a lordship (works loaded gospel) they have believed in vain.

    These brethren in James, were not being ‘careful to maintain good works which is good and profitable to all men” (Titus 3:8).

    What about bearing the burdens of other believers (those who were hungry and naked) – see Galatians 6:2.

    Were they doing well before men? Were they going to reap?
    And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. Gal 6:9

    Did they have a good conscience, or were they suffering for doing evil? Peter 3:16-17

    Were these who had the Holy Spirit indwelling them (James 4), having compassion on others? Jude 22-23

    Were they showing a pattern of good works? Good doctrine? Sincerity? Sound speech that could not be condemned so that no one could say evil of them? Titus 2:7-8

    Submitting to and loving others? Esteeming others better than themselves? Titus 2:9-11; 1 Tim 6:1-2; Eph 6:5-6, Rom 13:7-10, Phil 2:3

    1 Tim 4, tell us we are to be an example what a believer should be; in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

    So, James 2 is all about justification before men. What we SHOULD do, when we love Christ, because it matters in the harvest, it matters for His name’s sake. But works have nothing to do with our salvation.

  21. James chapter 2 – this will be lengthy, there is no way around it. 🙂
    NOTE – the bible CANNOT contradict itself.

    First we need some verses that say we are saved without works.
    Eph 2:8-9 – For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast
    Rom 3:27 – Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of WORKS? Nay: but by the law of faith
    Rom 4:5 – But to him that WORKETH NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness
    Rom 4:6 – Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness WITHOUT WORKS
    Rom 11:6 – And if by grace, then is it NO MORE OF WORKS: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    James 2 :

    I think you started…faith without works is dead. This is a “TRUE” statement. Dead does NOT mean “unsaved” it means “useless”.
    notice verse 14 – what doth it profit….
    1. it profits the believer nothing (Judgment seat of Christ)
    2. it obviously profits the hungry person nothing as well.
    Faith without works PROFITS nothing. Again, salvation is without works (see above)
    VERSE 14 Can faith save him? the question is “save him from what?
    – its not from hell as James is written to believers. (James 1:2 – brethren)
    So what are they being saved from? JUDGMENT (see verse 13). Faith will NOT save a believer from judgment.
    There are 2 other forms of judgment mentioned in the bible.
    1. The chastening hand of God. God will discipline his own. (Hebrews)
    2. The judgment seat of Christ where our WORKS are tested. (1 and 2 Corinthians)

    VERSE 18 – before I start – we have to realize who is speaking…..IT IS NOT JAMES. Seriously!!!! James has created a fictional character that begins to speak…sort of like me telling you a joke….one guy said to the other….I HAVE JUST CREATED 2 FICTIONAL MEN.
    How do we know this? verse 18 starts with, “ye a MAN may say”.
    – James didn’t say – I tell you
    – or I say unto thee
    James creates a fictional man (ye a MAN may say). It is this man that is now talking. James actually calls the man VAIN in verse 20. I will substitute BOB for MAN to show clarity.
    Yea, BOB (a man) may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain BOB (man), that faith without works is dead
    YES – IT IS HUMAN VAINITY THAT THINKS WE HAVE ANYTHING TO OFFER GOD FOR SALVATION —–the bible is clear-salvation is a FREE GIFT to anyone who believes the simple gospel message.

    VERSE 21 – Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar
    – the question – justified before who???? not God.
    – Rom 4:1-2 – What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but NOT before God
    – WORKS justifies us before MAN – 1 Samuel – Man looketh on the outward but God knoweth the heart.
    VERSE 22 – Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made PERFECT
    – remember – Jesus ministry – He said to his disciples many times “ye of LITTLE faith”….while telling the gentile woman that said even the dogs get the crumbs “I have seen no GREATER faith than this”
    – from this we know that there are different levels of faith—WORKS bring faith to perfection – notice the word PERFECT
    – SUPPORTED BY 2 TIMOTHY 3:16-17 – 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God (ALREADY SAVED) may be perfect, thoroughly furnished UNTO all good works

    SUMMARY – we are not justified by works; the bible is clear. it is clear that the author wants to encourage the believer to do good works for they are profitable.

    titus 3:8 – This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might BE CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN good works. These things are good and PROFITABLE unto men

  22. Joarge, I don’t feel compelled to add any discussion on James as part of this article.

    We have touched on the book of James in many of our other articles and comments. You might like:

    “Lordship Salvation’s James Gang: Robbing the Gospel”

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/04/26/lordship-salvations-james-gang-robbing-the-gospel/

    You said: “I find it a compulsion to want to “do” good.”

    My comment: That’s great. If you have trusted in Jesus alone as your Savior, I hope that compulsion may result in good works that are commended at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

  23. Joarge Stimpslen

    My comment was meant as to request for an explanation from the perspective of grace, then, what does a study of those verses in James mean for us? In the original post, treatment is given to the idea that some people may say faith without works is dead, but no discussion was made of what those parts of James does actually mean for us. Above, it’s almost as if what James said is put aside for things that Paul wrote.

    That’s obviously not the intent, so I’m just looking for some more perspective that includes James, if that makes more sense. Neither should invalidate the other, and all scripture being inspired, I still find it a compulsion to want to “do” good. I do know that it won’t “earn” me anything, but I do feel it pleases the Lord when we try and live by good example as we fellowship others. Perhaps there is some pride rooted in that and should be removed, but James does say we will be blessed for our efforts.

    I had missed the “Difficult Verses” post and it’s very nice that James 2:14-26 is mentioned. I guess it just wasn’t dealt with in this article, and I do feel the two pairs of faith/works and law/justification go hand in hand according to James. The idea of “active faith” is something I’ll think about more, and maybe a post here can expound on that along with that link to a pdf by another author.

  24. Joarge, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    You said: “But, James more fully completes that idea than Paul with the additional mandate that works are yet required…”

    My comment: Works are not required in order to receive, keep, or prove one has received the free gift of eternal life.

    You might want to read our discussion of James 2:14-26 under “Difficult Verses”.

  25. Joarge Stimpslen

    I’d like to hear more said about his topic with the inclusion of a study of James (KJV). Specifically, in light of how we should follow Christ’s directive to keep his commandments from John 14:15.

    The article above is very much in line with James 2:8-13 with regard to us all being transgressors of the law, and of course need grace. But, James perhaps more fully completes that idea than Paul with the additional mandate that works are yet required — both in James 1:25 (be a “doer of the work”) and in James 2:24 (justified “not by faith only”).

    As an aside, it’s lovely to me that James 1 and 2 calls it the “law of liberty”. Interesting wisdom there, in that Christ fulfilled the law and by grace we have liberty.

  26. BeholdaSon 🙂

    The friends, family, etc. that we lose, we just pray for as we remember them. We all will have enemies, so we need our armor on, and be out there heaping coals of fire on their heads hopefully by our kindness to them. The enemy has them blinded, so we have to remember the Light, keep bring the light of His Word into their life and pray that the gospel will finally be heard by them. Unencumbered, unhindered, and clear….

  27. John John, there is a time to be fed, and sometimes people make the mistake of going out to contend with no support, (two by two) and also not having balance in the Word, which we so desperately need to answer the enemy with. Keep growing in His grace!

  28. Thank you, just witnessed to a woman today, agnostic/atheist, might watch those and see.

  29. I am watching ‘Lordship Salvation – Caught Between Grace and Works’ right now. How much clearer can it be?

    Romans 5:18
    Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    Definitions

    Free: Without charge, without any encumbrance, clear of obstructions or obstacles, set at liberty; release from bondage, imprisonment, or restraint.

    Gift: something given voluntarily without payment in return, something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned.

  30. beholdason,

    that video is a three part series on Lordship salvation. that channel put all 3 together.

    I call that “trilogy” a MUST watch.

  31. BeholdASon

    Yes, you may have lost friends over the Gospel of God’s Grace but you still have true friends and fellowship here at ExP.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  32. Thank you, Jack, for encouragement and prayers. Glad to have “stumbled” upon Expreacherman! Bless you.

    Thanks, Jan! Your advice is very practical: “I’d rather take my losses and go somewhere else.” Being a Christian is a tough school I guess. Not sappy and sentimental when it comes to the truth of the Gospel!

  33. Watching Dr Ralph “Yankee” Arnold on ‘LS – Caught between Grace and Works” on Youtube.

    Incredible. I could cry.

    I just don’t understand how LS creeps its ugly little tentacles into the fold.

    Makes me rather angry.

    Preston… I hear ya.

    I’ve lost friends over this.

    At least I still have my toddlers. haha

    They still love me.

  34. Well, John (regarding Greg Stiers), I really couldn’t easily find a gospel either on his home page or dare to share. I did find his acronym for gospel and besides his associations above, I just followed down and found some disturbing things.

    I’m looking on his page, and see where he praises the Assemblies of God (they believe you can lose your salvation). He then says he is a big Tim Keller fan…. (Keller is a new calvinist, founder of the Gospel Coalition, and was a speaker at the Third Lausanne Congress… huge problem, I could go on, regarding Keller, but certainly, Greg should know he is a huge mark and avoid, vs. being a huge fan).

    So next page, I see him promoting Charles Spurgeon and verifying that this Calvinist, (who said TULIP IS the gospel), as the prince of preachers and a whole article devoted to admiration for him.

    He goes into essential and non essential doctrines on his dare to share site. Evidently he doesn’t think modes of baptism, when or how Jesus will return, tongues, Calvinistic, Covenantal, Arminian theological frameworks are essential and we should be united. Interesting he puts the apostle’s creed in ‘today’s language’ and took out that He descended to hell, and changed it to ‘the dead’.

    I’m sorry to all here that I didn’t do my homework first because it was offered through Bibleline.

  35. Preston – yes, I have been called a cult leader, and cultist, false teacher, promulgating a ‘new doctrine’, etc. We can but continue in the way He tells us to speak. I think in my mind of the likelihood of their own salvation (since they are teaching a false gospel), I try to keep Col 4:5-6 in mind. Generally when they accuse, oddly they are accusing themselves. Satan loves a two for one deal.

  36. 2 John 1:9-11 comes to mind in associating with anyone who preaches a false gospel like Graham or even Rick Warren. Mark and avoid is correct, and if they are sharing in their evil deeds, don’t we also share in their evil deeds by association?

  37. Afraid so, now I’m going to continue to read to see if Yankee has been notified.
    STAND – Awana Ministry Conference featuring Greg Stier
    Bibleline Broadcast Network
    Bibleline Broadcast Network

  38. Wow Jan, thank you. I have not looked up or checked it out, since it came from a bibleline link. I will go get the link and then look at the rest of the comments. Funny, the times you do not prove all things, there you go, there will almost always be error. Going to go check.

  39. I think the “what the gospel is NOT” message is very effective in presenting the true gospel. In fact, my mother came to faith in Christ after hearing an evangelist preach exactly that message. My mom was a good Methodist girl who lived a clean, moral life and thought she was “godly.” She grew up in church, did all the right things, and thought that summed up her part for salvation. When she was in her mid twenties, she was at a revival meeting (as she describes it) and heard an evangelist say, “The gospel is not being good, walking an aisle, saying the sinners prayer, avoiding evil, etc, etc…..But salvation is by the finished work of Christ alone on the cross for your sins…” She had never heard that before, even though she was raised in the church. I think we need this message preached more because it is certainly missing from the pulpit.

  40. James, one way we can help make the gospel clear to people is to tell them what the gospel is not.

    What Billy Graham and his group preach IS NOT the gospel, but is a false gospel of works.

    One of the things that perplexes me is how those who know the truth of the gospel (such as Greg Stier seems to) can pretend that they are on the same page with those who preach false gospels. The ecumenical folks must just gloss over differences with the Billy Graham’s of the world.

    This can leave souls in jeopardy, as no distinction is drawn between faith in the gospel and faith in false gospels.

    I much prefer making it crystal clear.

    If Stier knows that Billy Graham teaches a false gospel, he is wrong to associate with his organization. If Stier does not know that Billy Graham teaches a false gospel, he either does not understand the gospel himself, or is ignorant as to what Billy Graham teaches.

    In case you are unaware of the errors taught by Billy Graham, we have several articles on this site that document those errors. They are not minor. They change the gospel of grace into a false gospel of works.

    Among the articles:

    1. Who Makes These Errors?

    https://expreacherman.com/2007/03/14/who-makes-these-errors/

    2. Lordship Salvation’s Billy Graham Sets Trap

    https://expreacherman.com/2013/10/09/lordship-salvations-billy-graham-sets-trap/

    3. Running the Gospel off of the Tracks

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/07/18/running-the-gospel-off-of-the-tracts/

  41. James (formerly Greg Stier Defender)

    Jack and Jan,

    I regret posting under that name. I just thought it was a bit uncalled for to castigate Greg, a fellow brother, who preaches the same gospel whether using a Bible or not. Nevertheless, I agree with both your statements regarding Greg and my “worrying” decision to post under that name.

    I do find it increasingly popular these days for pastors to preach a nonlordship no-works gospel, yet be ecumenical. Personally, I find it to trace back all the way to the early workings of Billy Graham, who started the whole New Evangelicalism ideal that attempted to unite all denominations in an effort to reach unbelievers. Many if not most have failed to discern the “movements.” I am not sure I agree with Expreacherman’s position of separating even from the slightest ecumenical brethren (whether knowingly or unknowingly) that preach the one and only true gospel. However, I am open to correction from Scripture.

    I understand that we are not to associate with false teachers who preach a false gospel, but if teachers preach the right gospel, then there should be joint cooperation despite minor doctrinal disagreements. I guess it would also be debatable with regards to the use of the term “minor”.

  42. Greg Stier Defender

    Nathan, one of our regulars here at ExP, finally located D2S Statement of Faith. We thought it kind of vague but thankfully seems to reflect a grace orientation.

    But vagueness might be what one would expect of an “ecumenical” evangelist who associates with the likes of Billy Graham and Rick Warren.

    I am reminded of this verse from the Apostle Paul to the Church at Corinth:

    2 Corinthians 6:15
    And what concord [in common] hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? [Warren, Graham et al]”

    Also it was a tad disconcerting to read Stier’s gospel teaching to his daughter… Stier is asking the hearer to believe the words of a person without benefit of Scripture. The first rule of witnessing is to use solid scripture to back up man’s fragile words.

    We will pray that Greg would begin to use his many personal talents with Scripture to rebuke those many false teachers with whom he associates.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  43. Jan Kotlarski

    @ Greg Stier Defender: Well, Greg may preach the pure unadulterated gospel there, but he does publically associate himself with individuals, groups and organizations that are shakey on the gospel and other biblical doctrines.
    I find it a tad worrying that you call yourself Greg Stier Defender, personally speaking, I would have chosen a different name to post under.
    But I do appreciate the correction on that Greg does seem to teach the pure gospel.

    @ Dino: I’m in a similar yet worse situation: Here in the region I seem to have exhausted the options going to a doctrinally sound church/congregation.
    So I understand what you go through to some extent.

    @ John John: Same here with pastors/elders/authorities in churches/congregations, I only rarely confront them in person.
    Especially if I was there only a handful of times.
    I’d rather take my losses and go somewhere else.

  44. John John

    Very few Believers have the guts to confront the authority figures in a church who are teaching falsely.

    But Paul himself tells us through his letter of encouragement to Timothy:
    2 Timothy 2:15
    “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

    We look to be “approved unto God” and not man.

    We admire your “resolve to grow into maturity and become like Paul so I can stand ANYWHERE.”

    We will pray for you and your resolve to STAND.
    Ephesians 6:13
    “Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to STAND.”

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  45. Dino

    Yes, there are no “perfect” churches.. because they are made up of imperfect people. Even Yankee Arnold and Tom Cucuzza would agree with that.

    However that should never be an excuse to accept bad Bible Doctrine.

    Tom and Yankee both have great ministries with sound Bible doctrine. They show it can be done when you stick to God’s Word properly taught.

    We pray you will find the right church with a Pastor who teaches God’s Grace accurately.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  46. I admire the holy GUTS many of you have! I have not graduated to the level of questioning/confronting pastors over doctrine. On the contrary, I choked it down, stewed and LEFT.

    And NEVER RETURNED! Seems futile to try to beat any “system”. Whatever “elders” really exist for (something wonderful, if I read Scripture correctly) surely those who cannot see and address error ought not to be followed? Hebrews commends some for their faith in actually “disobeying” authority (Rahab, Moses’ parents). We are not to be mindless robots.

    Now, oddly, I am back in God’s Word, being REALLY taught wonderful truths by Him, and freely growing! In Paul’s letters (where I have been concentrating of late), am regularly enjoying an inner Amen! and a lift in my spirit as the Spirit speaks of lovely and lofty things. Very freeing.

    “Fellowship” is the elephant in the room for me, as I recoil at the thought of entering the domain of church. Thought I might skirt the issue by finding ministries of service to join as a “freelancer”, so as to avoid getting sucked into any man’s orbit. I am not a church-hopper by nature, and am really very loyal once in relationship with others, but oh how my spirit was burned before! I resolve to grow into maturity and become like Paul so I can stand ANYWHERE.

    Please pray for me in this?

  47. Jack,

    Thankyou for your advice. I remember the verse that says “A little yeast can corrupt the whole batch of dough”

    I’m beggining to notice some changes in me. Everytime my friends ask me to go to this church, I can’t stop to check out the senior pastor’s belief and what the church stands for. My friends are saying that i’m becoming too critical and they say that there is no perfect church. I can understand where they are coming from cause I used to think the same way when I didn’t know all this stuff. But when I started to listen to Yankee and Dr. Tom Cucuzza, I feel as if they are the guys I want to listen to. I still study my bible. I don’t totally rely on preaching just to be clear. I realized how critical every word is and that the preacher in the pulpit should know what he’s saying and should not give a muddy message. I’m still looking for some KJV churches and there are some here.

    Someone might accuse me of having itching ears. But it depends. They can’t accuse me of having itching ears especially if these men preaches proper doctrine. To me, having itching ears would have to prefer to an individual who does not want to listen to preaching against sin and carnality which is what Dr. Tom and Dr. Yankee does. These guys DO preach against sin

  48. Greg Stier Defender, thanks for your comment.

    I’m not sure that anyone here said that Greg Stier doesn’t preach the gospel. I think it was that they were unable to find a clear gospel presentation on his website.

  49. Preston no money for you Grace is free, but Im guessing their definition of repent means turn from your sin hows that for a good guess

  50. Greg Stier Defender

    Greg Stire does “preach the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ”.

    Look at this link, among others:

    (note: link removed by administrator, and excerpts displayed below)

    This summer, while waiting for a train with my family, I helped my daughter memorize the GOSPEL acrostic that we developed for teenagers at Dare 2 Share. It is comprised of six simple sentences that sum up the message of the Bible and the good news of Jesus:

    God created us to be with him.
    Our sins separate us from God.
    Sins cannot be removed by good deeds.
    Paying the price for sin, Jesus died and rose again.
    Everyone who trust in him alone has eternal life.
    Life with Jesus starts now and lasts forever.

    During the Dare 2 Share conferences we have teenagers memorize it word for word so that they can share the gospel with anyone, anywhere and anytime without a tract, Bible, whiteboard or booklet. We don’t want the lack of having evangelistic tools or tracts with them to be an excuse to avoid sharing their faith. So, if they have the GOSPEL memorized, they can at least explain it to their friends in a clear and cogent way.

    The only problem is that he is ecumenical. But don’t accuse him for not preaching the gospel.

  51. oohhh; oohhh, ooohhh

    We have all been called the same names for the gospel (by the religious)

    1. heretick
    2. antinomian
    3. false prophet
    4. wolf in sheep clothing
    5. satan himself
    6. child of satan
    7. accursed
    8. ETC

    BUT i think I just got a new accusation….ready?????

    I have been just accused of “starting my own cult”.

    Can anyone beat that? 🙂

    it is all over the definition of “repent” – apparently i have changed the definition and my cult began.

    People that start cults are rich!!! HMMMMM -wheres my money.

  52. Jan K and Nathan

    You both simultaneously sent links to Greg Stier’s Founder’s page which indicts Greg as an ecumenical “evangelist” who does not appear to preach the Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. There is no evidence of a gospel centered message anywhere on his web page that we could find.

    Greg is indeed guilty of Lordship “salvationist” associations that would make Billy Graham and Rick Warren proud.

    He indeed has associations with the groups you mentioned.

    ** Promise Keepers
    ** DCLA Super Conferences
    ** Youth Specialties
    ** The Billy Graham Schools of Evangelism
    ** Creationfest East and West
    ** Purpose Driven Youth Ministry Conference at Saddleback Church [Rick Warren]
    ** Sonfest Music Festival
    ** Luis Palau Evangelistic Association – Festivals
    ** National Network of Youth Ministries

    We could not find any recommendation for or links to Stier and D2S on Yankee’s web sites.

    Great research by both Jan and Nathan. We certainly appreciate your help in exposing Stier.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  53. Jan, I’m really puzzled by Greg Stier.

    If he understands and believes the gospel, why would he be welcomed to speak to some of these groups (like Billy Graham’s)?

    That’s what blows my mind about ecumenism. Billy Graham teaches Lordship “salvation.” Why would he allow his students to be taught grace?

  54. Jan K

    That’s OK — Not a problem — all of us make mistakes.

    Still, I would like to find that bio of Stier. I searched his D2S web site and could not find it, and likewise I found no Gospel.. but I am limited in my vision and reading ability.

    Thanks for your trouble and correction.

    In Jesus Christ eternally , Jack

  55. Jan Kotlarski

    Well Jack, I thought that Holly was talking about some website or Youtube video of Ralph Arnold with some link to Dare 2 Share:

    [I just listened to a couple videos on youtube with Bible line, down to the little kids version, plus they offer a phone app, which I assume since it’s being offered through Yankee Arnold is good, here is the link if someone would like to look.]

    So I did misinterpret that, I think.
    I can’t readily find any link from Ralph Arnold to Greg Stier or his ministries, so can’t send any link.
    Sorry for my mistake of haste.

  56. Jimfloyd in reply to which message it was in im not sure, there was a lot of information on all of them.I jot down notes sometimes when I hear something that impacts me.

  57. Jan

    Yankee led Greg to Christ many years ago when Yankee had a Bible college in Colorado. A couple of years ago I asked Yankee about Greg and Dare 2 Share. As I recall he was rather noncommittal.

    Those references for Stier would not make a very good resume’ for a teacher of God’s Grace.

    Please use the email link in our header above and send me Yankee’s web page that contains the link to Stier and I will contact Yankee.

    Thanks for the heads up.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  58. Jan Kotlarski

    Holly, I looked into that link this morning and I must regretfully inform you that the website of Dare 2 Share that is a link from the website you linked to is part of an emerging/purpose driven church movement and Greg Stier’s bio inludes this verbatimely:

    [Greg has had the opportunity to speak for many national events including:

    Promise Keepers
    DCLA Super Conferences
    Youth Specialties
    The Billy Graham Schools of Evangelism
    Creationfest East and West
    Purpose Driven Youth Ministry Conference at Saddleback Church
    Sonfest Music Festival
    Luis Palau Evangelistic Association – Festivals
    National Network of Youth Ministries]

    Additionally I haven’t really found anything on sin, sinners, hell, repentace [in the biblical sense] or what the gospel is.
    I don’t know why this is linked to on Ralph Arnold’s website, but it sure ain’t biblically kosher.

    Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

    So Dare 2 Share and Greg Stier are marked hereby, so we can avoid them.
    The Lord bless you all, brothers and sisters.

  59. Dino

    Additionally, you might use your KJV bible while they reference the NIV. Then you can see for yourself if there is error.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  60. Dino

    Be very careful about any church that uses NIV — we have found they tend to be less discerning and lean toward Lordship salvation. Just be aware.

    Also be sure to check the Baptist churches Statement of Faith. Be sure they don’t have the normal “turn from sin” or “repent of sin” to gain or keep salvation. Just study it carefully./

    Praying for you as you search.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  61. Thank you Both Holly and Preston..

    I’ve just been to our church saying goodbye to our music minister. I shared my faith with him. I asked him 2 things. Are you saved? He said yes. And I asked him again if there is anything he can do in the future to be unsaved. I gave him an example.I told him what if I got saved by believing and after awhile I became one of the ISIS members and kill people. I DID clarify that grace does NOT teach or recommend that we commit murder. I’m just showing him the truth about the grace of God. He did not give a clear answer.

    I’m praying that somehow, the seeds I planted in his heart would grow. He’s a rookie cop and he should know how to investigate stuff.

    I’ll give myself one sunday rest and then I’ll be off to one of the local baptist churches near us. They may teach with the NIV, but that’s okay aslong as their Gospel message is clear, I can live with that.

  62. These are all such great comments. I am so encouraged this morning reading them. I truly needed encouragement like this today. I appreciate coming here and enjoying the fellowship of believers and their focus fixed upon Jesus Christ alone. He is our Redeemer! As I move along in the faith I see more and more how much I desperately need Him and other fellow believers, especially believers who truly believe that Jesus is the ONLY way and no one or nothing else but Him. Thank you and may God bless you with a wonderful day in Him.

  63. Dino,

    there might be slight confusion between heb 6 and heb 10 (the willful sinning)

    this will be lengthy – my apologies

    The bible says once one believes/trusts the gospel; they are sealed. This leads us to 2 Timothy.

    point 1 – the believer is “sealed”. YES, this will help relate to 2 Timothy 2.
    – Eph 1:13 – In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise
    – Eph 4:30 – And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption
    (notice- unto the day of redemption)
    – 2 Cor 1:21-22 – Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;22 Who HATH ALSO SEALED us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts

    LETS GO TO 2 TIMOTHY – note – Timothy is a letter written from Paul to Timothy so the “WE” is referring to BELIEVERS.

    11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
    12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (REWARDS)
    13 If WE believe NOT, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself

    ME – Jesus promised not to lose one and that nothing will pluck us out of His hand. Jesus CANT deny himself. Let us KEEP reading.

    And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
    18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and OVERTHROW the FAITH of some.

    ME – we see that some had their faith overthrown. this MEANS that they believed. lets go to the next verse. the first word is NEVERTHELESS. this is key. “nevertheless” means “in spite of”. So some had their faith overthrown…NEVERTHELESS…

    NEVERTHELESS the foundation of God standeth sure, having THIS SEAL, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity

    ME- see they were STILL SEALED. note – read next verses to explain “depart from iniquity”. YES a believer should depart from iniquity. one reason – to build rewards of gold and silver and NOT wood hay and stubble; which will be burned at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

    heb 11 – But WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him

    SUMMARY – these people whose faith were overthrown were producing NOTHING. their faith was gone!!! they had no more faith THUS it is impossible to please God (produce). Were they saved? YES – having THIS SEAL, the Lord knoweth them that are HIS

    The bible CANNOT contradict itself. It cant say that if a person loses faith they are still sealed; THEN say they lost their salvation in another.

    Heb 6:4-6 – 4 For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them AGAIN unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    ME – Notice what it reads “it is impossible to renew them AGAIN”.

    That’s all it reads. people ASSUME it means they fell away and lost their salvation. it NEVER says that. ALL it says is thAt it is impossible to renew them AGAIN. it IS IMPOSSIBLE because they are STILL renewed (OR STILL SEALED – 2TIM). Either Jesus sacrifice was good enough the first time or it wasn’t. If it wasn’t, He would have to come back down a be crucified again or “afresh”.

    Hebrews 6 is actually and eternal security passage.

    hope this helped.

  64. Hi Sam, what message was that? I can upload it to my site if it is not there already. Thanks.

    Jim F

  65. Dino, as Cheryl said, so many misunderstand that passage in Heb 6, but that’s where context is so important… The entire book of Hebrews they need to understand, but most don’t even know the willful sin they are contemplating. And it will not result in losing eternal life, but it would not only cost them and others (as a terrible testimony) but they would be trampling the Son of God underfoot, counting His blood and unworthy thing and insulting the Spirit of Grace. We surely would not want to do such a thing, but many of us have even in being duped or bewitched into finishing in the flesh. Bondage. Keep studying His Word as I know you are. I just shared this elsewhere, but it seems fitting, here are some eternal security verses and thoughts. Formatting is not too great, but here it is.

    http://redeemingmoments.com/2014/04/25/1610/

  66. Dino, I’m so glad that God gave you discernment to leave that church. Clearly they are not walking in truth to believe that a Christian can loose his or her salvation. That is an impossibility because Christ did everything for us, and His work is finished. The Hebrews 6 verse is often misunderstood and misquoted. The deliberate sin to which the writer refers is the sin of rejecting Christ and returning to the sacrificial system under the old covenant. These Jewish Christians where being tempted to return to the temple to sacrifice for their sins. In essence, if they did this, they would be saying that Christ’s death was not enough (the very same thing that your former church members are doing by adding works to the equation). The writer continues by saying, “…there is no more sacrifice for sin.” Why? Because Christ has dealt with sin once and for all. May God continue to bless you as you grow in the unconditional love of Christ.

  67. Thanks Holly,

    Last night I did my best to witness to one of my closest friends in the church who is the Girlfriend of another man I had high respects for that studied in the school the church is promoting. It’s confirmed. they do believe salvation can be lost. He said if a person keeps on deliberately sinning then there would be no more sacrifice left (Hebrews 6:4-6) I wanted to debate him on that but there were many people in the area, including our senior pastor.

    If that was the case then Jesus did not have to die on the Cross. That would make Jesus a Liar even if he said that he would make us (present tense), SIT with him on heavenly places in Ephesians 2:6 the moment I place my faith in him alone. I got grounded enough not to be shaken by what he said. Studying the scripture was really worth it..

  68. It’s why we shod our feet daily with the gospel. I just listened to a couple videos on youtube with Bible line, down to the little kids version, plus they offer a phone app, which I assume since it’s being offered through Yankee Arnold is good, here is the link if someone would like to look.

    But even so, ‘prove all things’, we all make mistakes 🙂

    http://get.thechurchapp.org/1577/#!/dare-2-share-ministries

  69. Dino I know its very hard to separate from a church.I struggled with the same thing myself but I had no choice as I believed the Bible over my church.Jimfloyd gave me a grace cd and one of the messages on their stated you need to know what you believe, have the Bible verses to prove it, then stand on it, I planted that in my mind for times when I question if Im doing the right thing.Hope that helps.

  70. Dino, I am happy to hear you have left, but definitely you need to define your reasons. And find the Scriptures that cover why, so you can be more cemented in your decision based on His Word. We take heed to the doctrine, not just for ourselves, but for others. We warn others, and mark and avoid bad doctrine. (Acts 20:26-32, 1 Tim 4:16, Rom 16:17; Eph 5:11) are a few that come to mind.

  71. I’m just sharing what I am going through. I fully understand that not everyone may have the same kind of burdens and same reaction as I have. Were saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. Period. To anyone who may read my post. I’m just letting you guys know how God is dealing with me. I know this now. He deals differently with everyone. I’m not doing this to prove I’m saved. I’m doing this because I love him who saved me forever and it’s my choice that’s why I’m doing this.. Everyone is free to make choices. I just made mine. Thankyou Lord for using this website and Yankee Arnold / Tom Cucuzza for making salvation so clear to me…

  72. I tried to defend my faith to our senior pastor but he don’t want to accept my reasoning. He tried to cast down doubts on the KJV when I told him that is the bible I believed. I did everything I can to tell others but They don’t want to listen. I know our church are like the other mega churches found here and there is nothing I can. it’s a doctrinal statement of faith they stand and who am I to change that…

  73. Yes John. that is the reason why I’m leaving. I have close friends in our church and some of them are now pastors in this church and they are asking me why I am leaving. I know I have to tell them but I am making sure I start with those on the non-pastors who are very close friends of mine who I know has an open minded and is willing to listen to me.

    Thankyou Jack. I was able to compromise before since they were using an NIV bible and that they were somewhat “liberal”. I was able to bear with this in the past and even if they were not preaching on end times and current events I was able to bear it and told myself that this is the church God put me in. But when I got a hold of the Gospel of Grace. That was the final nail and there was a very strong tug in my heart and I don’t know why.

    I had this dream to be a composer / songwritter like paul baloche from Hillsong. I wanted to create music to express my beliefs to other people so that they might know Jesus. I thought this is what Jesus wanted for me and My church was ALL OUT supportive for this dream of mine. I actually have a video of it in youtube if you guys wanna see me singing in action. :). But going back, I was willing to give up my dreams, my plans on courting this nice girl next year in our church and I am 33 already… I was crying so hard and asking myself why am I doing this..

    Everytime I see a group of kids nowadays, I just cry and tell myself… “these guys need to know the Gospel…” I never felt this way before. I know I’m saved and I know that nothing can change that. I know my salvation cannot be lost and I am always looking up the sky! I feel burdened for my churchmates when I ask them. “do you know if your going to heaven when you die?” and if they do I ask them again “Do you know if you can change your being saved by the actions you do in the future?” and almost 90% of them do not have the assurance… This is what Yankee Arnold said and I can feel it. I’m starting to have the conviction to go to a bible school, actually I am inquiring grace school of theology in the US for an online study..

  74. Dino, I remember you having mentioned well over a month ago that you were in an LS church and that a senior pastor there believed that one could fall away from the faith and lose his salvation.

    What Jack said is right. If you have left your church over doctrinal issues that strike to the heart of the gospel, this is a good thing to tell other people about. Drawing a stark distinction between the gospel and its substitutes may open doors for you to tell others about Jesus.

  75. Hello Dino,

    You said you did not know why you were leaving your church fellowship.

    For what reason did you tell your leader? Is it because they are teaching a false message?

    Are they teaching Calvinism?
    Are they teaching that you must turn from sin to be and/or stay saved?
    Are they teaching you must live up to a certain standard of behavior in order to be or stay saved?

    These are valid reasons to consider another church.

    Yes, the Gospel is that powerful, once you understand it and its freeing Power, it will be difficult to re-embrace a fellowship teaching a false message.

    If you leave and you are sure why, then tell your friends whom you love why you are doing it — for the sake of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And then share the Gospel with them.

    Praying for you and your decision, Dino.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  76. I was able to summon the courage to tell my leader that I will our church. Thank God that he was open minded and he said it was okay.

    I find it so painful to leave.. this is my first time to do it and they were my first church…. I don’t even know why I’m doing this. I had everything going for me in our church but somehow I can’t understand why I am doing this.. Is this how powerful the Gospel really is?

    I remember what Jesus said.. “A faith as tiny as a mustard seed can move mountains..” at first I don’t understand completely what it meant until I found out that the mountain can represent persons that at first seemed unmovable because of what they previously believed.. and The gospel takes root in their hearts moving them as if mountains are moved…

  77. Seems that the Lord is pleased to use the weak, the foolish, the base things….

  78. BeholdASon,

    Great story…

    You said, “I pray he comes to read the Bible and have faith in Jesus. He would have incredible influence.”

    Yes, first that he would trust Christ as his Savior… second that he would be an incredible influence.

    My experience in witnessing to business professionals — there is often reticence to be an influence for Christ and boldness is often wanting.

    So maybe the Holy Spirit would want you to go and figuratively “kick some shins” to get him motivated. 🙂

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  79. MPB, I wish more well known people would proclaim Christ too.

    This reminds me of a guy at my old work I was praying for. It was in a Govt. dept at he was a Director. I was in an Admin role. Couldn’t stand the guy but tried hard to love him haha. I was quite well known in the office for being the fool (ie: Christian) and this guy was “cool” so he spoke to me in a way which would generally make you want to kick a person in the shins. (in the flesh, of course). 🙂

    One day, I get a phone call from this guy 5 minutes after I’ve left the office for the day. He asked me to go back to the office because he needed to “swear” on a bible for work in the presence of another Director. He knew I’d probably have a bible because of my beliefs (haha).

    My bible in this case was one of those ‘novelty’ neon bright orange leather bibles which I’d decorated with silver glitter and smiley faces. haha.

    They had to use it at they had no choice. haha

    A few days later he hauls me into his office to show off his new $5 gift and award bible that he bought, because mine was probably not good enough for future use. haha. I suspect he was trying to prove a point.

    A day earlier, I’d received in the post a rather fancy Scofield leather bible with all this crazy leather work on the front. I pulled it out and he had the filthiest look, because my bible looks way better. haha.

    Dunno why I thought of that, but it was a great moment in my life.

    I pray he comes to read the Bible and have faith in Jesus.

    He would have incredible influence.

  80. Michael Patrick Bowen, when I read your first comment last night before going to bed (I read it on my phone and tend to only chime in here from my desktop) I was in full agreement.

    I still believe what johninnc said above, but no need to bludgeon you with that.

    But I just yesterday afternoon sent a Facebook message to someone in the media. Not really a celebrity by any “real” standards, but someone popular enough to be a talking head on The O’Reilly Factor from time to time, and things like that. I know he’s a believer and he’s returned my Facebook messages before. I basically reached out to him asking him to check out this blog after a brief explanation about the free grace gospel and everything else you’d expect. I did this after seeing yet another Christian in the media (who, for example is on the “right side” of issues like Islam) is aligned with a website spouting total LS, and reformed/Calvinist theology.

    I agree that we should be trying to reach as many people as possible with the pure gospel and just yesterday embedded a link to the “Eternal Life For You” page on this blog in the signature of my main email account. And I’ve been sending it in FB messages to people as well.

    So you’re not alone in thinking we should be trying to get prominent people out there to check out this blog or whatever.

    On a smaller scale, and I’ve eluded to it here on another thread, witnessing to professing believers via social media and other internet venues who display evidence (sometimes ample) that they don’t understand the gospel (or they support/endorse those who clearly are LS) is no simple task. Well, it might be simple, but one had better be prepared to meet with resistance, to put it mildly.

  81. Michael, I wasn’t trying to dissuade anyone from witnessing to any and EVERY one, including celebrities. There are scriptural references to Godly Christians not being well-received by this world, that’s all. And, celebrity, by its very nature, often requires friendship with the world. And, friendship with the world can entail enmity with God. That’s all.

    I don’t think the “big names” in evangelism would be big names if they taught a straight gospel. For example, the world beats a path to Billy Graham’s door. I pray for him, from time-to-time, to disavow his false message. If he were to do that, God would be delighted. But, I believe the Bible tells us that it would come at a cost in terms of reception by this world.

    Michael, I’m trying to fulfill the Great Commission, just like you are. If you are trying to avoid discord, please don’t chide me for the way I choose to do it if it is not your way.

    1 Corinthians 12:15-18:

    [15] If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
    [16] And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
    [17] If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
    [18] But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

  82. Micahel, it isn’t like what you mention isn’t technically possible but the model seen typically is God using the “nobodys” of this world who simply believe and stand for the truth. Who were the disciples? One by one we can reach the world as we proclaim the gospel and as the work of evangelism is spread through the work of the local church. I think we are already seeing the beginnings of something good happening. More so now than even a few years back, I am seeing more and more respond to our clear gospel message and begin to realize they need to leave their current compromised churches. To me it is only a matter of time before there start to be more grace churches that stand for the free and clear gospel because these people that leave other churches will tend to band together and reorganize. We just have to keep getting the message out using all of the formats and avenues available to us.

    Jim F

  83. The women in the study, we’re going to start the spreadsheet, and figure it will grow from the multitude of counsel. (Ways to share the gospel). We plant, we water, and the Lord gives the increase.

    I suspect like John, since the Lord says we’ll be hated by the world, that a Hollywood Celebrity that actually understood the true gospel, would likely be a target of the enemy of course, hated by his liberal peers, and would be quite difficult as it is to all believers in this world.

    I did meet some celebrities in my lifetime, quite a number, from athletes to Hollywood actors because of my business. Not so much now, but I wasn’t a very strong witness back then but could speak with them easily. I just figure where the Lord takes us if you are willing to be used, He will use us. God bless you all too.

  84. Michael Patrick Bowen

    Johninnc says:
    “Any celebrity who proclaims salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone will quickly turn from peacock to feather duster in the eyes of this world.”

    To which I, Michael, reply:
    I’m not so sure! I must politely disagree with such a sad, defeatist foretelling. It reminds me of when the Israelites saw the giants. Mind you, please, I’m only stating my opinion, but look at your words again (see above). Now think about the Great Commission. Now think about what God has done for you. I would never sow discord among brethren. It is, however, a pure case of “automatic-failure thinking” to assume that a celebrity would quickly go from stalwart stature to a virtual nobody if he/she genuinely trusted Jesus as his/her “savior.” God might have big plans for some famous person out there, and He may be implanting the idea to do this very thing. Truly, I don’t know of a single celebrity who has genuinely trusted Christ as his or her “savior.” Do you know of any celebrities or persons of any considerable reputation who have genuinely trusted Christ? I can’t name a single one. Actor Stephen Baldwin has his little following, and so does actor Kirk Cameron–both of whom espouse LS. Although they’re dead wrong, they’re certainly not “feather dusters” in the eyes of most people. This could indeed be the fallow ground that God may be directing us to break and hoe, or at least me, anyway. I’m not afraid to look straight into the camera and give the gospel to Snoop Dog, or to Beyonce, or to any imposing Hollywood-type figure or world-famous pastor. Of course, I’m not obliging anyone into this sort of venture, but Dr. Stanford used to give everyone the analogy of “mowing the lawn.” He would say that we should mow the lawn “now” rather than not mowing it at all; he would say that we should get out there and “mow the lawn” rather than waiting until we felt led to mow it. Maybe I’m dreaming; perhaps my idea of reaching one or more famous persons (who, in turn, could reach thousands) is a rather stillborn idea. Maybe so, but it is a viable idea. Perhaps this idea is directly from Him? Perhaps He’s showing us a way through which we could watch Him work in an astounding fashion. What if one or more of us who participate in this forum actually posted videos on YouTube that target a special celebrity with the pure gospel (as opposed to only one person doing one video)? Think of how many people would watch it. Even if the intended celebrities didn’t see “our” videos, their fans would–and many of them could get saved, too. Forgive me if I’ve misspoken. The reasons I’m here at this forum are to: 1) draw strength and comfort from you, 2) to give you strength and comfort in return, and 3) to encourage you to witness in unique ways while there’s still time to witness. Not everyone is equipped for the latter, but God may want to do something very wonderful through this group. Bless you, Johninnc…bless you all. Michael Patrick Bowen.

  85. Cheryl, it’s good to hear from you again.

    When we believe in Jesus as Savior, we become children of God, and that relationship can never be broken. What a wonderful, comforting reality!

    Romans 8:38-39:

    [38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    [39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  86. Michael, yes we need more witnesses to the truth of the gospel, irrespective of their position or status. Any celebrity who proclaims salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone will quickly turn from peacock to feather duster in the eyes of this world.

  87. Michael Patrick Bowen

    If only the satanically blinded Lordship-Discipleship people could grasp this…if there were only some way we could convince the majority of so-called Christendom of the truths Johninnc has so astutely elaborated for us in this post…can you imagine what would happen? What would it take to effectuate this desperately needed “change of mind” on such a large scale? I met Erick Estrada (“Ponch”) in person a few months ago as he was touring. I gave him my book and explained the gospel to him. He never wrote back. I don’t know if he’s saved or not, but could you imagine the “impact” he could have upon the United States–even the world–if he began preaching the gospel? Could it be that we need to pray for (and deliberately target) some famous celebrities with the real gospel? That could help, for sure! We need a “platform” (the same attention the world give to them)…we need massively more exposure. How? I don’t know. It’s just a thought. If you know anything about me, you know I want to win the “world.” I tried it once, but I failed. I wonder how God could use us here, though? Of course, I’m not obligating anyone to anything. He’s using all of us here to some degree. This forum is a blessing to all of us. What, though, if anything, could be done to better reach LS people–or better yet–how about all lost-deceived people? Most, if not all, of us know how to handle one-on-one witnessing, but I wonder if there’s something “much greater” that we could do. There’s always videos, books, Web sites, etc., but I’m curious if anyone has any truly unique ideas concerning a very large-scale witnessing attempt. Have you ever thought about such a thing? I have! My goodness–I think about it all the time, but I don’t have any answers. I intend to soak up all the knowledge that I can while I’m here among you, and with His help, I’ll try to put something into action. Of course, we already have some heavy hitters in our ranks. Take Yankee, for example. What if we had 1,000 Yankees? What if we could turn Joel Osteen around? What if we could turn one or two famous pastors around? What if God allowed us to turn one or two very famous actors around? What would happen if He gave us Oprah? Can you imagine the ripple effects? Thank you for the wonderful post, Johninnc. It really made me think. It makes me want to reach out a lot more, but I’m just not sure how to do it. Bless you all–Michael Patrick Bowen.

  88. You are absolutely correct. It is Christ plus nothing!! When Jesus saved me over 25 years ago, I came to Him empty. My life was full of sin and a mess. I had nothing to offer God. At my lowest point of nothingness, Christ revealed his love, grace and mercy to me in a way that I never learned “by the teachings of men” or religion. I came to know for the first time what it meant for Christ to die for my sins and to be in a relationship with Him. I can’t wait to get to Heaven to fall at His feet and worship Him forever! Praise His holy name!

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