Lordship Salvationists and Calvinists: Why We Expose Them

By Jack Weaver and our friend, John

We are occasionally asked why we bother to expose Lordship Salvationists and Calvinists. In a few words, we expose them because we love our Savior Jesus Christ and His Gift of Eternal Life by Grace through Faith in Him alone. We simply try to do our best to promote and defend the Biblical Gospel of God’s Grace (Ephesians 2:8-9), to unmask and open to your understanding, those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. (Romans 1:18)

The “Christian” world is running amok with false doctrines proclaimed by Lordship “salvation” (LS) and Calvinist deceivers. We find that most LSers are Calvinists and vice versa. LSers usually include the many faces of Calvinism, i.e. Traditional, New, Hyper, “Moderate,”some Baptists, etc. Thus, since it fits, we use the acronym, “LS” to include all “works salvation” promoters.

We at ExPreacherMan have written many articles about those whose desire it is to advance, promote and subsidize the false message of LS. You may search our numerous, informative articles here.

The objective of this brief article is to clearly define LS, in as few words as possible, so believers in Jesus Christ may be equipped to discern between the truth of God’s Word and the lies being advanced in His name.

At its core, LS is a disbelief in God’s Word which clearly states that salvation is by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. (again: (Ephesians 2:8-9)

LS is the unsupportable belief that the performance of works, the promise of works, or the evidence of works MUST accompany faith in Christ in order to make that faith result in eternal life.

LS can be overt (one must forsake all of his sins and follow Christ in obedience and discipleship in order to be saved) or VERY SUBTLE (one’s behavior will change once he is saved).  But, do not be deceived. Trying to add ANY human merit to Grace makes it no longer Grace. (Romans 11:6)

We expose people who promote LS, because they:

• Keep people lost (Luke 8-12 2 Corinthians 4:4);
• Are accursed (Galatians 1:9)
• Frustrate grace (Galatians 2:21);
• Bewitch believers, rendering the believers ineffective in their Christian lives (Galatians 5:4)
• Are to be marked and avoided (Romans 16:17 and 16:18)

In addition to the above, people who believe and teach LS don’t currently believe the Gospel and need to be confronted with that reality.  They need our prayers.

One wonders why so many thousands of seeking souls flock to the false message of LS. Could it be a cultic draw by charismatic personalities who manipulate scripture, relish the attention, fame and (incidentally) the dollars cleverly conned from their followers?

These pitiful followers are striving for an LS salvation” that is hopeless and unattainable. Pray for them to see and believe The Truth of the Gospel << Click

*Note: Our special thanks to our friend John for contributing his Biblical knowledge, wisdom and thoughts to this article. JW

87 responses to “Lordship Salvationists and Calvinists: Why We Expose Them

  1. Oh no… really? basket5, John Piper? Who needs a village to be saved?

    John MacArthur, who states a list of qualifications a person must accomplish before they are saved? Who says becoming a Christian is not easy? Whose laundry list has a couple dozen things one must do in order to be saved?

    I’m sorry, both these men teach another gospel…

    I do join in agreement with Jack and pray if you have indeed started in the Spirit, you will not be bewitched into finishing in the flesh. And you won’t propagate any of their additions to the gospel.

    MacArthur… when did he believe? He doesn’t remember a time when he didn’t know. If salvation is not for children as MacArthur basically teaches, how can that be so? So then you have to ask, what must I do to be regenerated, once you are told “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved”…

  2. Reply to Basket,

    You presented a pretty good case for the Gospel.. in fact you almost quoted our Gospel presentation. Until your exception…….

    If I read you correctly, the exception is that your last paragraph included a couple of rather trickily-worded phrases which actually refer to the “P” of the Calvinist TULIP, Personal Perseverance for salvation, which is not a Biblical teaching. You said:

    There are 2 truths the gospel upholds which cannot be denied; you cannot deny who Christ is and you cannot deny what Christ has done.

    You are thus saying that Eternal Life is NOT eternal but depending upon your persevering to the end. You would thus deny that Believers are kept by the power of God by the indwelling Holy Spirit who is the permanent, unbreakable Seal that the Lord gives everyone who believes in Jesus Christ alone for Eternal life.

    Your second note-comment, which will not be published, is a compendium and confirmation of your admitted Calvinist/LS beliefs, the note included your report of proudly learning from John MacArthur for 15 years and your love for John Piper. We have quoted both of these men in their own words frequently, displaying their denying the sufficiency of Jesus Christ alone for salvation. We presume you agree with their abominable quotes. You may search our web site for those quotes if you are interested.

    JMac and Piper possibly and occasionally may lapse into sanity (which they lightly sprinkle throughout their otherwise apostate books and tapes); this does not obviate their terrible deceit and false doctrine everywhere else.

    We will pray that you trust Jesus Christ alone as your Savior and not as your probation officer.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  3. Here is the biblical gospel in a nutshell as requested:

    God’s standard for sinners is perfection. You are born under the curse of the Law and cannot keep it. You, therefore, are a violator of God’s Law and the penalty for your guilt is death. Jesus was born of a virgin and is fully human as well as fully divine. He was crucified, died, was buried, and rose from the dead. His substitutionary death fully and completely paid for/atoned for our sins. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and in Christ alone. By the works of the Law, no flesh will be justified in His sight. Jesus is part of a triune Godhead, (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)

    There are 2 truths the gospel upholds which cannot be denied; you cannot deny who Christ is and you cannot deny what Christ has done.

  4. I had stated that I was going to address all the comments to me. The list has grown so long that I could barely accomplish that without getting 10 more responses on top of them. I will post a couple replies tomorrow that sum up what has been said. Thanks

  5. basket5 posted (Finally heard the biblical gospel after all those years and my life was changed)
    can you define what you mean by bibical gospel.

  6. Please forgive me for not responding in a timely manner. I will be out of town for the next 3 days. I look forward to addressing all your comments when I return.

  7. Basket5,

    See John’s excellent response on the issue of, what you call, “faith and conduct.”

  8. Basket5,

    I’d have to agree with the others here. There is no way that anywhere close to 70 percent of Americans are believers. The percentage would be a very small one as far too many have mixed in works to the gospel whether knowingly or because they have been deceived.

    I don’t know anyone here that would not view the Bible as the authoritative Word of God. If there are a few passages in scripture that cause you to doubt free grace what would they be? How does an unsaved person get saved? Do you hold to the perseverance of the saints view?

    Jim F

  9. Abe, you said: “.. or waiting to see if their works are ‘good enough’ to see if their conversion ‘took’.”

    Exactly. And, this is one of the reasons LS is so insidious. It just feeds on disbelief.

    The following quote from Clear Gospel Campaign addresses this quite succinctly:

    “We believe that the more ardently and regularly a pastor or teacher holds forth any of the above perversions of the gospel of grace as a necessity for salvation, the more firmly a pre-existing grid of salvation-by-works is fabricated in the hearts and minds of the congregants, progressively shackling the lost sinner more hopelessly behind a veil of deception, making it less and less likely that any forthcoming profession of faith has meaningfully grasped the message of salvation.”

  10. No way in my understanding of things, that the 70% number is correct. 70% might claim to be Christians, but way lower than that believe in faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. The majority of “Christians” are adding works to salvation, or waiting to see if their works are “good enough” to see if their conversion “took”.

    Thus, of those that believe in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, adding no works before or after believing…. the number is way lower than 70%.

  11. Sorry for forgetting to end my ‘bold’.

    I didn’t ‘walk the walk’ or ‘walk worthy’ for some many years, I guess it’s why the story of the prodigal son appeals to me, I didn’t even start to become obedient to abide in His Word and in Him because of Him, (to my great shame) but because of my own desperate need… But He was my Father and embraced me with loving arms.

    I also love the story of the Good Samaritan for that reason. Never do we see him asking if the person robbed was a drunk, or a thief, or a liar himself, or even hanging with bad companions. He simply cleans and binds his wounds, and cares for him, leaving the payment for his care until he returns.

    How great is His love…

  12. Basket

    You mentioned that you could “already sense some hostility”, I’m sorry if anything here came across that way, tone is hard to correctly discern, I didn’t see any hostility in the speech, but I will tell you knowing the people here, or at least the regular commenters, their speech is sound, and always seasoned with grace and salt, and on the few occasions someone is a little grumpy, they are quick to ask forgiveness.

    Glad you are here, I can assure you that all here, hold up God’s Word as truth, because it is 🙂

    I love God’s Word, it is treasure… (Ps 119:140, 162)

    God bless everyone’s day.

  13. Basket5, the Bible says that anyone who believes in Jesus as Savior is a “true Christian.”

    You asked: “Are the Scriptures your final authority in all matters pertaining to faith and conduct? If so, then we can have an honest dialog about who is a true Christian and who is not.”

    My comment: One’s conduct has no bearing on whether or not he is a “true Christian.” The Bible is the authority for a Christian’s conduct. But, nowhere does it say that a person’s eternal life is conditional upon his conduct. In fact, the Bible goes to great lengths to tell us explicitly that our works have no place in the equation of whether or not we have eternal life.

    You posed the question: “Are 70%+- of the people in America born again Christians?”

    My comment: I don’t think so. This would seem to be contrary to scripture.

    Matthew 7:14: ” Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

    I believe that the reason many professing Christians are not saved is that they are waiting to see if their lives show sufficient change to confirm that they are saved.

    What they fail to realize, is that even if they become “pretty good”, they still won’t be perfect. And perfect righteousness is required to get into heaven

    Revelation 21:27: “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

    Further, even if one thinks he is doing a pretty good job “walking the walk” presently, there is no guarantee that he will continue to do so. This leads to trusting in one’s intent and ability to persevere for eternal life in addition to,or instead of, trusting in Christ alone for eternal life.

  14. Thank you califgracer. Based on what most polls say, (that only 9-10% of those polled have a biblical worldview) I would say this is a much more accurate figure of who is a Christian. (Is it even possible to not have a biblical worldview and be a Christian?) I will assume from your 2 Timothy quotation that you do agree the Scriptures are the final authority when it comes to matters of faith and conduct.

  15. Hi again Basket,

    Thanks for commenting. Re. the 70% figure, just from common observation, I would say that the percentage of born-again Christians is far lower than that. Re. Biblical Scripture, I will direct you to 2 Timothy 3:16, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”

  16. I realize I am in your space and that if I overstep my bounds, you will simply delete me. That’s reasonable. But I hope you can bear with me. I can already sense some hostility with only a few posts under my belt. But before I deal with the latest responses toward me, ( and I would like to answer them all) if you will, let me give you a very brief background of myself.

    I was born and raised Roman Catholic. Stayed a RC for 37 years. Finally heard the biblical gospel after all those years and my life was changed. I started down the road of apologetics. I interacted with hundreds of people in person and via the Internet. I quickly found out that the overwhelming majority of people thought themselves to be Christians. Most polls or surveys will place the percentage in the 70% range.

    Is that true? Are 70%+- of the people in America born again Christians? The reason I pose the question to you is to see if we have the common denominator to figure that out. The common denominator being the Scriptures. I have seen that Free Gracers believe in grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and to the glory of God alone, but do you believe in Sola Scriptura? Are the Scriptures your final authority in all matters pertaining to faith and conduct? If so, then we can have an honest dialog about who is a true Christian and who is not.

  17. Matt for Grace and Truth

    Basket 5,

    I’m glad you’ve written. You’ve received A LOT of responses. BELOW is one more…

    “Lordship salvation” teaches that to be eternally saved (i.e. heaven bound), you must BELIEVE in Jesus Christ AND perform or manifest GOOD WORKS (i.e. live a godly life).

    “Free Grace Salvation” teaches that we are saved and receive eternal life by God’s FREE GRACE GIFT alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone, and NOT by works at all (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 6:23; Titus 3:5; John 3:16; 1 Corinthians 1:30-31). Biblical “GRACE” is God’s “undeserved, unmerited, and unearned favor.”

    Salvation must be obtained and maintained by grace alone or works alone…it cannot be a mixture of both…it’s one or the other. (Romans 11:6; Romans 4:4-5)

    Lack of works does produce a loss, but not a loss of eternal salvation (which is a free gift), rather a loss of profitable rewards (1 Corinthians 3:12-15; 2 Corinthians 5:10).

    If good works don’t save you, then lack of good works don’t damn you. Otherwise, salvation is by works and Jesus death on the cross was insufficient (John 19:30; Hebrews 9:26).

  18. Or I mean to say, “sound” resources. I have plenty of resources, but want to be sure they won’t have bad teaching elsewhere.

  19. Basket,

    Here is a sequence of verses brought to mind by our friend Holly Garcia with the same verse addresses mentioned to you by Bruce earlier. As Holly says, “Don’t attach strings to this Gift (eternal life), OR YOU MAY NOT HAVE IT..” These verses (and hundreds more) from God’s Word should help you see a clear divide between Grace and works:

    Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:4-5

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  20. Basket,

    You have been welcomed and given some very kind and accurate answers to your philosophy by some of our wonderful free Grace regulars here. I use the word “philosophy” (or man’s reasoning) purposely because yours is certainly not the theology of God’s Word. Your stated “beliefs” in LS/Calvinism, are confusing and incongruous with the LS “norm” as has been pointed out by several folks here.

    You chose to comment here on this article where we clearly stated why we EXPOSE and CONFRONT the terrible error of LS/Calvinism. Therefore, this article was directed squarely towards LSers like you with whom you seem to tacitly agree (though you appear to wander ambivalently between your ideas and the very definition of LS stated by your LS leaders, Chan, Platt, MacArthur, Piper, et al).

    We pray that through this civil discussion, you will see the obvious contradiction of terms when you state you believe in God’s Grace (unmerited favor) while at the same time professing your belief in the impossible task of living up to the man made “rules” of Lordship Salvation/Probation and the poisonous flower, the Calvinist T.U.L.I.P.

    Basket, we will pray for you that the Truth of God’s Grace will permeate your mind. Grace is not irresistible as Calvinists think, therefore YOU must make the one time, eternal decision to believe/trust in Jesus Christ ALONE as your eternal Savior. (“belief = eternal life” John 3:16)

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  21. Basket, faith is not the gift of God. Eternal life is the gift of God.
    Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

    Also, 2 Corinthians 7:8-11 is written to believers. An unbeliever cannot have a godly sorrow that leads to repentance. God justifies the ungodly, not the godly.

    Romans 4:5: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

  22. Basket5,

    I think you have just illustrated how someone can say they believe salvation is by faith alone, through grace alone, and in Christ alone yet be in disagreement with us.

    I believe grace is unmerited favor, however God does not force salvation upon us. He did however show us grace in providing us a Savior in the Person of His Son, Likewise I do not see faith as being the gift of God but rather salvation. That is, Christ provides us the way for salvation and by grace we receive it through faith. Many Calvinists will say that faith has to be the gift in order for God to overcome a man’s total inability to believe.

    I also define repentance as a change of mind. No amount of sorrow is needed. I can explain more on that later.

    Jim F

  23. In a nutshell, LS and Calvinism do not and will never mesh with the grace gospel of the Bible (see verses quoted earlier). Any system of teaching that requires the promise of good works and/or the demonstration of good works to obtain, maintain, or prove salvation is unbiblical and adds to the gospel message of salvation in Christ alone by grace alone through faith alone.

  24. Sorry, that should read at the end, corrupting minds from the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor 11).

  25. Basket5, I do think a number of people have a different belief system then some of the major teachings of the Lordship doctrine. They think they are Lordship because they believe we should submit to God. Yes believers should, and resist the devil too.

    A number of believers were not submitting to God, look at all the Epistles. James, Galatians, Hebrews, 1 and 2 Corinthians, each with different problems, but the same, they were not submitting to Him, nor abiding in His Word very well. They were exhibiting a lot of immature and fleshly, carnal, legalistic, elitist behaviors and attitudes… Point is, they were still believers.

    Lordship doctrine teachings unfortunately front load, even top-load and back load the Gospel, the simplicity that is in Christ.

  26. This is to califgracer. I really appreciate the time you took to compile your information but it would take me forever to deal with all the points you brought up. Is there any way you could narrow it down so I can keep my response brief?

  27. This is the response to Jim F. There are different ways to define grace depending who’s perspective you are looking at it from; God’s or ours. Assuming you mean from our perspective and assuming you mean as it relates to salvation, it is the unmerited favor bestowed upon believers which they play no part in receiving. It is free, as you would say.

    Yes, faith is the gift of God.

    I would take you to 2 Cor 7:8-11 for a biblical definition of repentance. Would I define it as “being willing” to turn from sins? No, I would not. The passage says there are two kinds of sorrow and repentance; worldly and godly. Only godly sorrow worketh repentance (verse 10) but the sorrow of the world worketh death. The world can “be willing” to turn from sins but it is not godly repentance.

    Honestly Jim, do you believe that the answers to these questions should be in line with what you hold to or that they line up with what Scripture says?

  28. This response is to john. Your assessment of my LS beliefs; ie: that I believe that works (performance, promise, or evidence) MUST accompany faith in Christ in order to make that faith result in eternal life, are inaccurate. That sentence would have to be reworded very differently for me to hold to it. I most definitely do not believe in works salvation.

  29. Basket5, sometimes it hard to get a conversation started because there are similar words used but meanings differ. How do you define grace? Do you view faith as the gift of God? What about repentance? Do you define it as being willing to turn from sins? These questions would tell us if you really agree with us or not.

    Jim F

  30. basket5, you say you are an LSer. You also say that you believe in salvation by faith alone, through grace alone, and in Christ alone.

    If you are an LSer, you believe that works (performance, promise, or evidence) MUST accompany faith in Christ in order to make that faith result in eternal life.

    These two beliefs are not compatible. One simply cannot believe both of these things at the same time.

    I don’t mean to be unkind, but which is it that you believe?

  31. Hello Basket5:

    Here are some basic differences. These comments are generalized statements on doctrinal differences and are not targeted at you or any other individual. Please utilize the Expreacherman.com search bar if you wish to explore these issues in greater depth. This site is chock-full of solid articles on these subjects.

    LS and Calvinism are diametrically opposed to the Free Grace Gospel of Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31, John 3:16-18, 1 Cor. 15:1-8, Romans 4:5, John 6:29, 40, John 11:25, et. al.

    Ephesians 2:10 says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
    Did you notice that the verse said, “SHOULD walk in them?” Yes, as true believers in Christ, saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, we should serve God, out of gratitude for all that he has done for us and because it is the right and proper thing to do. The rub comes when LSers, like Chan, Platt, Piper and MacArthur DEMAND good works as a litmus test of genuine salvation. This fact is thoroughly documented at this site in many articles. There are no costs for the individual to become saved. Salvation is entirely a FREE GIFT from God to anyone who will trust in Christ alone by grace alone through faith alone: Ephesians 2:8-9; John 3:16-18; Romans 4:5; John 11:25; Acts 16:30-31.

    When one begins to place additional requirements on trusting in Christ alone by grace alone through faith alone, then works are added into the salvation plan to obtain, to maintain and to prove genuine salvation. This is the fallacy of Lordship Salvation! It is not only unbiblical, but it also deceives many into thinking that they are saved when they are not. And for those who have already become saved by trusting in Christ Jesus alone for salvation by grace through faith, LS then can become a real destroyer of assurance of salvation.

    Brief Notes on Calvinism:
    The T of TULIP, to the strict Calvinist, means more negatively than what most people perceive. In a nutshell, it means, to the strict Calvinist, “Total Inability,” or the complete inability of a man or woman to respond to God in ANY way! Calvinists often use the improper example of a cadaver. They say, “Just as a cadaver is completely unresponsive, so a man, dead in his sins, cannot respond to God in any way.” So, salvation must basically be thrust upon the individual (even if it’s against his will), because, to the strict Calvinist, a person has absolutely no ability to respond to the wooing of the Spirit in belief in Christ to be saved, IN SPITE of the many Scriptures which call a person to believe (Acts 16:30-31; John 3:16; John 7:38; John 10:9; John 11:25, et. al.).

    Free Gracers do not hold to perseverance of the saints (the “P” of the Calvinist “TULIP”). This false teaching is man-centered requiring the individual to perform a lifetime of good works in order to prove to himself and to others that he was ever really saved to begin with. It is basically equivalent to Lordship Salvation. It’s a real killer of assurance. Many unanswerable questions arise from this teaching: A. Who sets the standards for Christian service and behavior? Some, (like Chan, Platt, Stearns and Piper) make the standard as “all-out, on-fire, over-the-top, never lukewarm;” otherwise, one is considered as an unbeliever. B. How long must one serve God to know for certain that he is saved?—five years? ten years? twenty? C. Are any periods of backsliding ever allowed?; if any, for how long? D. What about the many biblical examples of believers who strayed from the Lord: David, Solomon, Jacob, Samson and Lot come readily to mind. Solomon fell into idolatry at the end of his life; did the timing of his sin exclude him from heaven? I think not! Believers do not have to strive to persevere in their faith. God saves us and God keeps us saved (John 10:27-30).

    [Inserted final comment on Calvinism: Source, Kent Kelly, “Inside the Tulip,” Southern Pines, NC: Calvary Press, 1986, page 59]:
    “Rather than magnifying the sovereignty of God, the Calvinist denigrates His sovereignty. A sovereign God has the power to overcome total depravity [a Calvinist term shown by the “T” of their favorite acronym “TULIP”] and provide an opportunity for rational choice if He wills to do so. The Calvinist denies Him that sovereignty. A sovereign God could provide an atonement that is legitimately available to every sinner. The Calvinist would deny Him that sovereignty. A sovereign God can desire the salvation of every sinner and see that desire unfulfilled, for His own reasons, without being a failure. The Calvinist would deny Him that sovereignty.”
    Kelly goes on to describe (p. 59) the false, unloving, mean-spirited god of Calvinist invention (an ogre):
    “The sovereign god of the Calvinist planned in a past eternity that billions of men, women, and children would be tormented in the Lake of Fire forever. he had no desire that any of them would be saved. This god was well aware that because of the sin nature received at conception, they could do nothing but become Hell-deserving sinners by the very fact of their existence. This same god said that the basis for their condemnation would be a failure to believe in the Saviour and His atoning work. But this god provided no Saviour for them, and no atonement was made available in which they could believe. he sent forth people into all the world to command these billions of men, women, and children to believe in a Saviour who was not their Saviour. he commanded them to repent knowing that he had personally selected them to burn in Hell before they ever received their sin nature. This god of the Calvinist created billions of vessels of wrath fitted for destruction—commanded them to do what he had willed them to be unable to do—then sent them to Hell for not doing it. If this is your god, you have my sympathy.”

  32. I for one am appreciative that you do filter out those kinds of comments, so we can actually discuss Scripture vs. men’s wisdom.

  33. Here is my honest question. I am an “LSer” and a “Calvinist” as you refer to the categories. In the original post, someone falling into these categories is deemed to have a false gospel and is also referred to as “pitiful.” It is stated that we are saved by faith alone, through grace alone, and in Christ alone. Since I believe this to be absolutely correct as well, why is my gospel false?

  34. Jack, Bruce

    Thanks for your wise interpretations. I pray that you all have a blessed day!


  35. To behind-the-scenes commenter “Basket,” if you have a question about a Scripture verse or a brief comment to make about a topic being discussed, go ahead and send it through. If it is respectful and on point, there should be no problem for the screeners to post it. Thanks for being understanding of the comment rules.

  36. Jesse,

    (and Bruce, thanks for that very clear explanation of Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).

    Jesse, knowing that you have expressed your appreciation for and belief in the Free Grace position of God’s Word, your question is a good one. Often, Lordship “salvationists” will take such verses out of context trying to justify their false assumptions. Don’t be fooled by their efforts!

    And I will add one thing to Bruce’s excellent explanation. The word Bruce uses, “Bema” is the correct interpretation for the word in the KJV for “Judgment Seat” in all of his Bible verse references. It is, as Bruce said, “a judgment for rewards for believers.”

    Many years ago, when I began studying the Bible in earnest, folks would use the word “Bema” and I did not understand and could not find it in my KJV so I was puzzled. But it makes perfect sense, not a harsh “judgment” for believers but a place for “rewarding” faithful believers.

    Thanks again Bruce — I was writing an answer to Jesse when yours came through — and mine/yours were virtually identical.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  37. Hi Jesse,

    Thanks for the question. After expounding for 12 chapters on what life is like for the common man (6:1), “under the sun,” or, basically, a life of emptiness, a life of, “chasing after rainbows,” as one commentator put it, Solomon concludes his oration with a statement about the necessity of being in a right relationship with God through faith. He also warns that there will be a judgment day coming one day for believer and unbeliever alike: Believers will be judged at the Bema judgment for rewards, not for salvation (2 Cor. 5:10, 1 Cor. 3:11-15); unbelievers will face a final judgment and eternal punishment (Rev. 20:11-15).

  38. Hi All,

    How does one interpret Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 with Free Grace theology?


  39. Thanks California and John, thats fits well with free grace. Some passages are
    hard to understand at times, exspecially in the old testament. It comes down
    to rightly dividing the word. Where Paul spells out salvation so clearly, so have
    to read old test in light of the epistles. I think people who don’t believe it’s
    by faith alone have no idea how to rightly divide the word. The lordship guys
    dismiss Paul’s teaching and make doctrine out of passages without looking
    at the whole Word. I kept trying to get this across to a couple we were friendly with
    who were pastors. They kept implying when someone left their church and
    seemed to back slide, that they weren’t Christians anymore, quoting scriptures
    out of context. I kept showing them well how come Jesus says eternal life, eternal
    means eternal. Gave up trying to convince them. Felt sorry for their church members.

  40. Kenneth Groenewald

    Good on you Abe. MayThe Lord make His face shine upon you and all free gracers.

    Kenneth G.

  41. Thanks FryingPan9,

    Not to worry, neither you nor Tom said anything out of order. We appreciate your thoughts.

    We have sufficiently covered the subject of legalism in this thread so we can return to the main idea here — the Grace Gospel of Jesus Christ and exposing those who pervert it.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  42. Dear Jon,

    I’m sorry if I seemed to imply I was singling anyone out or being unfairly critical. I only wanted to convey that from more than just a few examples throughout my 21-year walk with The Lord, I’ve encountered folks w/ the mindset about “legalism” to which Tom seemed to be referring.

    I regret any carelessness on my part that gave anyone reason to reach any other conclusion.

  43. Kenneth, Matthew 7:14 in the “new king james version” is what caused me to throw it out, years ago when I used to use it for teaching. I went to the KJV and never looked back.

    It was at that moment that I truly began to see the intensity of the enemy trying to change God’s Words.

  44. Kenneth Groenewald

    John, great to hear that you tossed your NLT Bible out into the dumpster. I would do the same with the NKJV.
    Is the way of salvation “narrow” or “hard”?
    KJB – Mt 7:14 “Because strait is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    NKJV – “Because narrow is the gate and DIFFICULT is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
    The modern versions including the NKJV make salvation hard/difficult, when it is actually quite easy. Simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour from sin, hell and damnation. The scriptural example of how easy it is, is simply believing on the Lord Jesus Christ,whereas all of the Modern Versions including the NKJV actually require more effort than simply believing on The Lord Jesus Christ.

    Blessings in Jesus

    Kenneth G

  45. Kenneth, I tossed out an NLT Bible a couple of years ago, because of its error. I think I may have even written a warning in it to keep anyone who might fish it out of the dumpster from being deceived.

  46. To behind-the-scenes commenter “Steven,”

    Yes, Expreacherman.com does allow BRIEF, HONEST, RESPECTFUL questions and/or comments about the topics being discussed (at the discretion of the administrators), even if the commenter/inquirer has a differing viewpoint from the stated Free Grace Views of the administrators and regular commenters. However, the following types of entries are generally disallowed:

    1. Terse insulting and unhelpful “Blast-and-Run” foundationless statements such as, “Lousy article,” “You guys don’t what you’re talking about,” “You shouldn’t speak against ‘God’s annointed’,” “You’re just promoting disunity,” “You’re a bunch of heretics” (we have heard even far worse things said).

    2. Comments given solely for the purpose of linking to other sites which promote views contrary to the Free Grace Gospel of the Bible (and the established Free Grace emphasis of this site).

    3. Comments which are designed to give lengthy diatribes in order to promote LS and Calvinist views, views which are contrary to the stated Free Grace views of the Expreacherman.com site.

    4. Lengthy lists of questions posted which appear to be designed simply to send our commenters down a rabbit trail.

    5. Comments or questions given by individuals of opposing viewpoints who have no interest whatsoever in honest dialog; they simply want to preach AT us.

    I trust that these guidelines have been helpful.

  47. Kenneth Groenewald

    I am aware that we need to stay on the topic of free grace, however “free grace” and corrupted versions go hand in hand. Example: “Repent, and be baptized every one of you” Acts 2:38 KJB. ” Each of you must repent OF YOUR SINS” (Caps mine) NLT. Can you see the corruption?
    Laagrace I love to worship God with whatever musical instrument except when its “Gospel rock”. I don’t believe “going to see a movie is wrong” depends what movie. All things are lawful into me but not all things are expedient. Do not put a stumbling block before your brother. Rom 14.
    “Men must have certain haircut”
    My response: Legalism.
    “Woman must wear skirts only”
    My response: Asceticism and legalism.
    “No hair for men”
    My response: legalism and Asceticism
    Dress, facial hair, movies etc is a form of Asceticism.
    wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not;taste not; handle not;Which are all to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men. Col2:20-22.
    There are vast resources on the Internet on how the Vatican has tried to corrupt free grace through corrupted Versions, even the NKJV.
    I thank The Lord with all my heart for the gospel of free grace.


    Kenneth G.

  48. Thanks Tom,

    You are absolutely right. I know you didn’t want to belabor the point but I thought I might add a couple of thoughts to the conversation:

    Believers are instructed throughout Scripture to be obedient to the instructions from the Lord “to put on good behavior (Ephesians 4:24), put off bad behavior (Colossians 3:8-9),” not for salvation but because we are saved — we should do it to enhance our fellowship with the Lord, other believers and to be an example to the lost, the unbelievers. Just to carry it a tad further, of course the scripture we reference will be in the context of The Word and our conversation.

    And then the Lordship “salvation” folks (Washer, Chan, MacArthur, et al and their followers) demand behavior (that is visible to them) for the gaining or keeping of salvation. Their ultimatum is totally contrary to the simplicity that is in Christ and His Grace.

    So, legalists and LSers are actually malignant, cancerous twins — eating away at the very core of the Gospel, God’s amazing Grace.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  49. Maree, I think Isaiah 55:7-9 have some similarity to Ezekiel 18:26-28 in that they appear to include an appeal to believers to walk in obedience to God.

  50. Dear Jon,

    My comment above explains what I am saying. It says, “when you show someone from the Bible how they should change in a certain area, if they disagree with you and don’t want to change, you are immediately labeled a legalist”.

    Jon, when something is in the Bible and someone has the attitude of, “Well, I’m under grace, therefore I don’t need to obey that”, it is wrong. Grace is not a license to do wrong but the freedom and privilege to do what is right.

    Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

  51. Great posts!
    You guys are right, the word “legalistic” does get thrown around incorrectly often times.
    I wanted to add a thought to my earlier posts pertaining to what Kenneth wrote. I think many are afraid to take a stand for the the KJV, because without wanting to paint with too broad of a brush, many of those churches who take that stand for the KJV, tend to place alot of rules on church functionality. I would be curious to see if any of you have experienced this.
    Those who use KJV exclusively will often tend to view any worship music other than hymns as for lack of a better word “Wrong”. Certainly not all and notice I said “tend to”.. They also tend to take the view that going to see a movie is “wrong”. They tend to take views that men must have a certain haircut, women must wear skirts only etc.No facial hair for men etc.
    Though I know the term for that is not legalism, often people who experience some of that IFB “stuff” use that word. I think we must understand where this is coming from.
    And by the way, not all IFB churches are like that, please understand.
    I think the key with all these issues is letting the Holy Spirit lead. Some movies are bad, no doubt about it. I also don’t really like supporting hollywood. Yet, not all movies are bad or sinful. Not all Praise and Worship Music contains bad doctrine. You have to let the Spirit lead and be discerning.

    On the other side of the coin, I have also noticed that those churches who do have the above mentioned “Rules” and use the KJV, are often doctrinally very good churches.I think some get into trouble by sometimes trying to regulate what only the Holy Spirit can. We need to see churches with sound doctrine grow, and sometimes I wonder if people are settling for the Emergent Type churches because of the man-made regulations on dress, facial hair movies etc.in some churches. that are doctrinally sound.

  52. Hello Maree,

    Chapter 55 looks to be a call to trust in the Lord God of Israel alone for salvation, which would result in eternal life including great blessing in this life. Verse 7 seems to indicate that some of those included in the exhortation may have already been believers in the Lord; if so, they were being called to Get right with God and return to a place of blessing.

  53. John, I agree, anything with a false gospel is a cult, in my opinion. If it leads to hell, then it’s a cult in my opinion. But anyway yes, you are right, the Duck Dynasty thing might be popular, but their church is not Christian, and that is a problem for those taking any spiritual cues from them.

  54. Bryan, you might find “The Gospel” booklet, by Ron Shea, also helpful. Please see link below:


  55. Hi, I was asked the other day what about isaiah 55 7,8,9,etc. It says that the wicked turn from their evil ways and the unrighteous from their thoughts and God will forgive etc. I could only point out at the beginning of Isaiah 55 it mentions drink freely when it talks about salvation. But could’nt properly explain verses 7,8,9, etc. Any ideas?

  56. To Tom and FryingPan9,instead of just criticizing other’s why not clear the air and define the word legalist? And what if someone is convinced you need to change in a certain area but can’t show you from the Bible why?

  57. I’m sad to see that the Robertson family of Duck Dynasty are CoC, I’m huge fan. Anyway, if there on there is one thing I can see when I come across a person who is “Free Grace” and that there is little room for doubt in their (our) salvation. It is sad that I come across so many Christians who walk in doubt wondering if they “Did it right” when it comes to their salvation. I love to tell them that it doesn’t matter if they “got it right” Jesus is the one who got it right! Just trust in his finish work. Also, if I have one available, I like to give them a copy of Handbook of Personal Evangelism by Dr. Ray Stanford. LS is unfortunately alive and well here in GA.

  58. Abe, you said “..if they are ‘church of Christ’, that is a cult. It teaches the false gospel of water baptism regeneration which leads to hell.”

    I had just finished telling a friend of mine the same thing when I read your post. My friend’s definition of a cult was much more narrow than yours and mine.

    I consider all religions to be cults, including those going by the name “Christian” that teach salvation by the performance, promise, or evidence of works. This would include the Church of Christ and quite a few other protestant denominations, conventions, and alliances.

    As they saying goes: “Religion is worthless. Salvation is priceless!”

  59. I don’t want to steer us too off topic but I can attest to what Tom said about the loose and often careless (if not outright irresponsible) use of the word “legalistic.” In my experience it’s seldom more than the protestation of Christians who want to justify an unorthodox and/or unbiblical and/or blatantly sinful practice or belief. And no, these folks can NEVER accurately define what true legalism is. (Because if they could it would betray the fact that they ought to know better and THAT would call them out on their underhanded way of pushing their agenda.)

  60. Tom,

    Thanks for dropping in on this discussion. We appreciate your Bible wisdom and discernment — especially your concern for the lost — presenting the Gospel of Grace so clearly — without fail.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  61. Kenneth,

    Thanks for the encouraging words about the article.

    Isn’t it amazing today how that when we disagree with others on an issue, or have another belief, we are immediately labelled a “cult”? The same is true with the word “legalist”. I hear this from time to time when you show someone from the Bible how they should change in a certain area, if they disagree with you and don’t want to change, you are immediately labelled a legalist. I love to ask them, “Define the word legalist.” They usually can’t, but just stare at you.

    While there are cults today and there are legalists today, people use the words often in a sloppy and careless way.

    Tom Cucuzza

  62. Duck Dynasty is clean funny humor….a “hoot””…I was sad to hear they are Church of Christ.
    Kenneth, I tend to agree with you on the King James.
    I don’t have an issue with the NKJV, but there is something about the King James. The KJV/NKJV simply come from a more consistent, reliable Greek Text.

  63. Oh boy, Duck Dynasty. Never seen it myself, but I know people that consider it a Godsend. The guy from it also apparently spoke out against abortion. So we’re set up for more “celebrity Christianity” but if they are “church of Christ”, that is a cult. It teaches the false gospel of water baptism regeneration which leads to hell. So never trust “celebrity Christianity”. It’s almost always LS (think Kirk Cameron).

  64. Kenneth,

    Thanks for your encouraging and positive comments — We here at ExP try to Glorify the Lord by proclaiming His clear message of Salvation, thanking Him for His word and exposing those who pervert the Good News of Free Eternal life by Faith in Jesus Christ alone.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  65. Kenneth Groenewald

    May I also add that I believe in the inerrancy, infallibility and inspiration of scripture. God has kept His promise in that he has preserved His words. Jesus said ” heaven and earth shall pas away but my words shall NOT pass away” (Caps mine) John 24:35.
    Kenneth G.

  66. Kenneth Groenewald

    Hi Tom
    I really enjoyed your article on “Why I use the King James Bible”. I have been labelled Cultic because I stick to the KJB, but I will forever stick to my guns. Here is the article:https://expreacherman.com/2011/10/28/why-i-use-the-king-james-version/
    Kenneth G.

  67. Welcome Martin, thanks for your comments today.

    While Calvinism and LS are definitely recurring themes at Expreacherman.com, there is a wide array of other subjects discussed here as well.
    Here’s a sampling of topics:

    Thanksgiving, What is Hope, The Promises of God, What is The Gospel?, Help for Sinners, The Resurrection of Christ, Bible Translations, Permanency of Salvation, Resources from Dr. Cucuzza, Thoughts on Whitney Houston, Replacement Theology, Emergent/Emerging Church, Can an Unbeliever Produce Christian Music?, Christian Evidences, Notes on “Praise,” Biblical Assurance, Warnings from the Titanic, Campus Crusade, New Age Movement, Catholicism, CFL Bulbs, Dominionism, Ecumenicism, Discernment Ministries, Glenn Beck, Rick Warren and “Chrislam,” “American” Christianity, Guilt-free Christianity, Book Reviews (several), “Let Freedom Ring,” Evidences for a Pre-Tribulational Rapture.

    Martin, please use the search bar to check out any of these other topics. Thanks again for commenting.

  68. I think it’s great that you expose Lordship Salvationists and Calvinists but I wish you’d expand more on other things.

  69. D Taylor,


    We appreciate your heads up on the Duck family. Sorry to hear that they are CoC. We have info on CoC at our Wiki-Index above in the Web site Header.

    It is a shame that a moralistic family TV program is enjoyed and promoted by so many uninformed folks. Your note will help folks be informed. We thank you.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  70. another false gospel messenger is the church of christ. The bad thing about that church is the people from duck dynasty are members of the church of christ and no telling how many people are being mislead by duck dynasty and this church.

  71. Tom,

    Thanks for that profound truth from Scripture. Totally true, absolutely Biblical and therefore logical!!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  72. Hi Everyone!

    It all comes down to the profound truth in John 3:18, 36.

    John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    In v.18 it says that if a person believes, he is not condemned. If He doesn’t believe, he is already condemned. These are absolute statements that have nothing to do with the life they live, either now or in the future.

    That the Lord could say an unbeliever is already condemned shows that works have no part in the issue, because the man has not lived his life out yet. And that if we believe we are not condemned, it shows the same, because the life of the believer has not been lived out yet, yet the Lord says they are not condemned. Works are nowhere mentioned because works do not determine destiny. Faith alone in Christ alone determines eternal destiny.

    Tom Cucuzza

  73. Hi Sam,

    I would say that you are correct that very few churches preach an untainted grace gospel message. Judging by the vast sales of all of these new LS books, such as “Crazy Love” and “Radical,” I also agree with you that most people don’t understand that they are being fed a works-salvation gospel.

    Related articles: https://expreacherman.com/2012/11/13/latest-news-on-david-platt-calvinist-author-of-lordship-salvation-book-radical-openly-declares-his-lordship-salvation-stance/

    Click to access BookReview%20ofCrazyLove.pdf

  74. Kenneth, your quote from Jack Chick is a perfect illustration of the mindset of LS: “Be willing to turn from sin (repent).”

    My comment: a willingness to turn from sin is not even a filthy rag (Isaiah 64:6), just an IOU to produce a filthy rag later.

  75. In answer to why you expose Lordship Salvationists and Calvinists..I say Thank God you’re doing it because I don’t think we’ll ever get educated in church (sorry to say but it’s true). I would venture to say most people don’t know they’re being taught a works salvation Gospel.

  76. Hi Kenneth,

    Very sound reasoning there! Yes, for those who have never trusted Christ alone for salvation by grace alone through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), LS can absolutely block them from trusting in Christ alone for salvation. For those who have trusted in Christ alone for salvation but have fallen prey to the deceptive teachings of LS, these false teachings can be a real destroyer of assurance of salvation, as you pointed out.

  77. Kenneth Groenewald

    May I also just add and ask the LS camp what sins and how many sins must we turn from? Is it just the big sins like Murder,Adultery,or all of the Ten Commandments? They cannot tell us which sins and how many. If we cannot completely turn from let’s say pride or hatred do we remain unsaved until such time that we can confidently claim that we have turned from those particular sins? Their teaching is absolutely ridiculous and damning.

    Love ya all in Jesus

    Kenneth G.

  78. Kenneth Groenewald

    Was pondering upon the teachings of those in the LS camp. If what they say is the truth (which we know it isn’t) that one needs to turn from one’s sins, then at what stage or at what point does one experience the New Birth? If their teaching is true,one cannot experience salvation immediately,since there has been not one person that has turned away from all their sinning. What about pride,lying,dishonesty,strife,envying,hatred,Idolatry,stealing etc etc? To give up all our sins is a lifetime process and still then, it is never attained in this life. If this was true then we would be constantly trying to turn from our sinful habits in utter frustration. Can one truly have that assurance of salvation if we are constantly trying to turn from our sins in order to be saved? I thank God that salvation is a gift.(No works). It’s there for the whosoever. The second a man or a woman trusts and believes that what Jesus Christ did on the cross( paid the penalty for their sins) He did it for them, they will be born again. In an instant, without promising or being at least willing to turn from sin. As Jack Chick puts it “Be willing to turn from sin (repent). One must be so willing that they will eventually keep to their promise and turn from their sin 🙂

    Blessings and peace Kenneth. G

  79. Matt,

    Thanks for your encouragement and support.

    We thank the Lord for you and each of our readers/commenters and the world-wide coverage that we presently have (3-4 thousand views per week last two weeks) — but we simply need the message to get out even more. The world is lost through error, false “Christian” teaching, false religions and just plain apathy.

    We are a minority in the world – but a Majority with the Lord.

    We appreciate your help.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  80. Abe,

    Thanks for your comment. Catholics, Islam, billions? Yes quite true (pitifully). I suppose folks love the anti-God bondage of rules and laws. LS is similar in so many ways.

    We are indeed an Oasis of Grace and we must continue to proclaim the Gospel of God’s Grace and expose the false.

    We appreciate your help in doing so.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  81. From the article: “One wonders why so many thousands of seeking souls flock to the false message of LS”

    I always wondered that too. But then I remembered that the catholic system has about a billion people, and the craziness of islam has over a billion. Deception and spiritual blindness from the enemy of our souls, is at work.

    Kenneth wrote: “at the back of the Church where I found John Piper tracts”

    Sounds like my experience at a place I would have assumed to be okay. Was perusing their church bookstore, found Chan and Platt, and now I’m done with that place.

  82. Matt for Grace and Truth

    Incisive and concise article. By your thorough understanding of the LS issue, you are able with precision cut to the core of the matter.

  83. Kenneth, so sorry to hear. I don’t think there is problem with teach all nations, vs. make disciples, (mathēteuō) in Matt 28:19, but Bruce or Jack (better to listen to) may disagree.. I think maybe we can get ultra sensitive to terms, although I agree with you that if that is what they are doing vs. preaching the gospel, I’d certain have an issue.

    I agree there are big issues with the people you mentioned, sometimes we have to try to take it one person at a time and see if they will hear, other times, the influence may be too pervasive.. I pray some here can give you some advice, but stay fed in His Word so you do not grow too discouraged.

  84. Kenneth Groenewald

    Thanks Jack, I really enjoy going through older articles in the archives. I have only come to understand the diabolical heresy of LS about a year ago through this website. Although I came to a saving knowledge of the truth in 1981 by simply calling on Jesus Christ in desperation for salvation, just simply trusting on John 6:37. During my walk with The Lord though I got snared and tangled upin LS teaching, but praise God I am set free by your articles.
    Just last night I slipped into a bit of depression and started feeling like what Elijah must have felt like when he fled to that cave after Jezebel sent him a message that she has a hit on his life. God meets him there and and The Lord basically says to Elijah “What’s up Elijah?” (My paraphrase). Elijah answers and says “I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.1 Kings 19:10.
    I got to stage last night where I felt like I was the only one left who finds the teachings of LS repugnant. I’m like “Lord they have torn down your gospel and muddied your message,and I am the only one left who believes in free grace.” This is why I had to come here today to meet with my true family and pour out my heart.
    My wife and I have just been taken into fellowship with “The Brethren”. Not Plymouth or closed. Everything has been going fine although I had an inkling that all was not well when I visited their “Tract rack” at the back of the Church where I found “John Piper tracts”. I brushed it aside until I was approached by the leader of the Evangelical Outreach Team. I was asked if I would like to join as somebody must have told him that I was involved with the Prison Fellowship Ministry.(Unfortunately they are also using LS material). However I council the prisoners aside, one to one subtly and give them the true gospel. I then wanted to know from him what program they were working with. I was told “The way of the Master” by Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort. Red lights immediately lit up in my head when he revealed the program.
    Decided to go last night anyway after much deliberating in my mind, as I was told that they no longer use that program. From what I can gather from last night, is that their whole thrust is to make disciples or followers of Christ.Not converts but disciples.I am at the end of my tethers. When I objected and said that we needed to get the gospel preached to them and to get them saved, I was told that we first needed to establish friendship and that the Holy Spirit could quicken their hearts further down the line and that could take a number of visits.There whole thrust was from Matthew 28:19. Unfortunately they were using the Vatican Versions where they use the words “make disciples”.The KJB says “teach all nations”. Don’t know what to do as my wife has said to me that she fears I will up and leave the Church.She really enjoys the ladies fellowship and has told me that they are lovely people and that she misses the get togethers.I know she will be disappointed if I up and left,but where to? These sure are the last of the last days.
    Apologies Jack for being so long winded but needed to vent my frustration.
    In His service
    Kenneth G.

  85. Great article guys! Thank you very much Jack and John for the purpose statement and overview of LS’s false unbiblical theology.

    This really lets viewers know what Expreacherman.com is all about.

  86. FryingPan,

    Thanks, y’all send ’em and we’ll answer ’em.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  87. This is a GREAT article to direct one to who needs a quick overview of why so much of the focus here surrounds the LS controversy.