What are The Motives Behind Lordship “Salvation” and Other False Teachings?

By Jack Weaver and our friend, John

Are we able to assess the motive of those false teachers/prophets who preach “another gospel”? Galatians 1:6-8

We can certainly assess and discern a false “gospel” message. That would be adding anything to the Gospel of salvation by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. If we see or hear ANY teacher, Pastor, CD — or read any books, web sites or articles that tell you any of the following are requirements for eternal life, “the performance of any works, the promise of any future works, or the evidence of any works,” (to quote our friend John), such are teaching a false “gospel,” which is no Gospel at all. (Examples: Repent, turn from sins to be saved, Turn or burn, make Jesus the “Lord of your life” or commit your life to Christ to be saved, persevere to the end, etc.) These are all Satan’s add-on to the precious Gospel of God’s Grace and totally pervert the Gospel (Good News).

We came up with at least four general categories of people teaching false gospels:

  1. Believers who still believe the gospel, but teach error out of a personal motive.
  2. Believers who no longer believe that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone (Luke 8:13, Galatians 5:4).
  3. Non-believers, who are counting on their own righteousness to get into heaven (Matthew 7:15 and Matthew 23:15).
  4. Satan’s ministers, disguised as ministers of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11:15).

While the first and second groups are saved, and therefore eternally secure, all who preach false gospels are under a curse (Galatians 1:8-9).

To even attempt to discern the motives behind the person doing the false preaching, we must carefully analyze them, their behavior and their statements.

Following are some of the reasons that believers may teach false gospels:

  1. Ignorance or misuse of scripture – includes use of “proof texts”, always out of context, as well as use of poor or plainly false Bible translations.
  2. Sense of belonging – desires to be part of something big and exciting, with lots of structured programs for kids, etc. Willfully blind to obvious error.
  3. Respect for authority – putting the doctrine of men on par with, or above, the word of God.
  4. Social pressure – a desire to hold a position of honor, even it requires compromise.
  5. Financial allure – big churchs, big money, lucrative demand for books, etc.
  6. Family legacy – “my Daddy’s Daddy’s Daddy believes that, and so do I.”
  7. Eat the meat and spit out the bones “theology” – disregarding the Biblical warnings to separate from false teachers/teaching.
  8. Ecumenism – going along to get along.
  9. Fear of “failure” – desiring the praise of men above the praise of God.
  10. Hero-worship – reverence for icons of evangelicalism, such as Calvin, Spurgeon, Billy Graham, etc.
  11. Gatekeeping – They don’t want “nominal Christians” in their midst, so they change the Gospel from Grace to fit their own rules of behavior.
  12. A Feeling of Spiritual Invincibility – Failure to separate from false doctrine – as if they are not susceptible to being misled by false teaching – thus they let down their guard and find no need to put on the full armor of God (Ephesians 6:11).

It should come as no big surprise that non-believers also teach false gospels for many of the same reasons as those who purport to be believers in Christ — even so, each of them manage to slip in a teaching of Lordship “salvation” (probation).

If anyone claims to believe in a false gospel of works, we should take him at his word. He needs to be treated as an unbeliever, since simultaneous belief in a false gospel and the real Gospel of Christ is impossible! We should lovingly confront such a religious “professor” of faith in Christ with his disbelief. We must proclaim the Gospel, and if possible, show him from the Bible why his false gospel is false. The Lord does not require ANY works to acquire His gift of salvation – it is FREE. Grace and Works are polar opposites and CANNOT coexist as a means of salvation! (Romans 11:6)

The Only Gospel of God’s Salvation <<Click

144 responses to “What are The Motives Behind Lordship “Salvation” and Other False Teachings?

  1. Alice2 (we added the “2”, since we already have another Alice that comments here), thanks for your question.

    The way that one understands James 2:14-26 can get to the heart of whether one understands and believes the gospel. James 2:14-26 is not talking about justification before God (see Romans 4:1-3), nor is it using “saved” in the context of receiving eternal life.

    Please see links below for interpretations that are consistent with grace (which Lordship “salvation” is not);


    Click to access cucuzza-faith-without-works-is-dead.pdf

    Please note that the first link has some formatting problems that may require you to select the text and paste it into a Word or other format to get the full range of text.

    We pray that you will find this information useful and it will help clarify the difference between grace and works in the matter of how to have eternal life.

  2. I’d be grateful to know how James 2:14-26 fits in with “Lordship Salvation” being false doctrine?

  3. RAS – regarding your comment with the Calvinists, and the reformed Jail conversion, it reminds me of Augustine’s conversion, which was mystical and had nothing to do with the gospel (the children’s voices urging him to ‘take up and read’ several times).

  4. Phil and Ras, yes, I see the similarities with the Pharisees (although I often get called one for being so ‘legalistic’ to stick to the Word, or to ‘hammer’ someone with it — however they choose to interpret me using the Word. The Pharisees thinking they’re chosen, yet won’t come to Jesus that they might have life. I don’t know which Calvinists may have believed the clear gospel, but I am saddened for those who never have assurance of His Word, and may never have believed (the same one who use the Lord, Lord passage against us from Matt 7).

  5. Keith, I left a FB group because of a discussion which they closed, because they insisted that 1 John 1 was written to gnostics so they could know how they could be saved, including confession of sins being necessary to gain salvation. Now, I realize different people have different ideas on this passage, that’s not the reason why I left. The conversation was closed and the links they kept using to make their case, one came from a Universalist, another from a loadshipper, yet another from one whose God was ‘in us all’ and said ‘Namaste’ at the end of the conversation.

    I let them know I couldn’t really stay in a group that closed conversations with definitive proof based on unbiblical sources.

    When I left, they used 1 John 2:19 as the reason why I left. I see why many get this wrong. For obviously there are factions in the body to show us who are approved and who are not. Good explanation of that chapter by the way.

  6. Concerning faith as a work, such was my thinking when I was under the influence of Calvinism.

  7. Keith, very well said!

  8. In Matt. 16:4, Christ condemned the Pharisees and Sadducees for asking Him for a sign that He was the promised messiah. Instead, had they believed the testimony of the law and the prophets, they would have known He was the messiah by faith (Luke 16:31; John 5:45, 46).

    In the same way, Calvinists, LSers and others who add works to the gospel insist on signs which they think will verify that they have eternal life. These signs (one’s faithfulness, turning from sin, baptism, circumcision, experiences, etc.) can all be verified through the senses. To these people, receiving eternal life by believing in the person and work of Christ and simply taking God at His word (John 5:24) is “easy believism”. The idea that faith is the gift of God is so compelling to the natural man because “genuine faith” must be accompanied by these signs or it is not saving faith.

  9. Jason, good point. Calvinists somehow seem to think that the free will to believe the gospel is a denial of the doctrine of grace. In that way, Calvinists recast faith, if not received from God, as a work.

  10. I used to think that faith in faith was something Calvinists were careful to avoid. If I can have faith in faith, then why can’t I have faith in my ability to believe that Jesus died for my sins? Why can’t I have faith in free will? Calvinism seems to do just the opposite of what it says. God does all these things in his sovereign will, but a man is sovereign in his faith? Makes no sense.

  11. Phil, the Calvinists haven’t gotten their twisted view of grace from the Bible, that’s for sure.

  12. I looked up the word “grace” in Strong’s Greek. The word is “charis” meaning state of kindness and favor toward someone like benefit, gift, credit, thanks, blessing.
    Where do the Calvinists come up with grace meaning some mystical or magical power one receives or is “infused with? The Greek word “charis” does not give the meanings that the Calvinists have come up with. Maybe they got it from one of Augustine’s Latin books that Calvin discovered?

  13. RAS, people will really twist scripture to try to uphold their opposition to the concept of free will.

    Many who are Calvinists don’t even know it. The same is true with respect to LS.

  14. John
    This week I had three different people from three seemingly different perspectives in three separate conversations defend the faith gift idea. One was my Calvinist “lite” friend. The second was a guy who is always decrying wolves, apostates and fake believers. The third was a guy who said he was saved in jail while not understanding the Gospel until he read reformed commentaries.

    All three used “none seek God” and a somewhat mystical conversion experience to explain that indeed God gifted them with faith. They confuse conviction and revelation (the Gospel), plus the fact that they believed, with gifted faith and irresistible grace. One says he is not a Calvinist but believes the “doctrines of grace”. One says he is not a Calvinist and indeed he knows little about it since he is preoccupied with other “wolves” like Warren and such. The third is an unabashed Calvinist.

  15. Ron Shea puts the Calvinists’ false belief that faith is the gift of God this way:

    When Ephesians 2:2-9 is tortured to reduce the gift of God to “faith,” and therefore, reduces the concept of “grace” to the Aristotelian substance which, when infused in a man, invokes faith. (See the subsequent chapter on “Sovereign Grace”.) This, however, has two derivative errors which are far more serious than a friendly controversy over predestination and free-will. Firstly, it creates “another gospel.” The Gospel is no longer “Christ Died for your Sins.” The requirement of God in the salvation of man is no longer “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.” The cross fades into the background. Man’s saving response to the gospel message is not to believe that Jesus died for His sins, and to accept His offer of eternal life as a gift, believing it is Christ alone, apart from the works of the law. NO, the fundamental meaning of belief ceases to be reliance on Christ alone, apart from man’s works. Rather, the gospel of such ilk becomes “Believe that faith comes from God.

  16. Similarities that I have noticed between Calvinist and Charismatic LS: The Calvinist says God gives them the gift of faith which really seems to mean enlightenment to the “doctrines of grace” therefore “authentic faith” works, cannot be dead. The Charismatic LSer says God gives them the gifts of tongues, healing or prophecy therefore “authentic faith” works in signs and wonders. At any rate they are sure (not 100% sure in the Calvinist’s case) that they have it and others may only profess to believe. Both preach faith in faith.

  17. Phil I was thinking of the same comparison this week. The modern day Pharisees like those of the first century are guardians of the system, more enlightened than the average person and chosen from birth (or eternity past) to be so.

  18. Phil, I think in some cases, it is a fair comparison.

  19. When I read what these LS legalists, faith/works salvationists, false teachers say, I sometimes picture the Scribes and Pharisees that Jesus had to contend with. Is this a fair comparison?

  20. Jason, you make a very interesting point. Some of the “greats” were/are really not so great.

  21. Keith’s interpretation makes me think of the church “fathers”. We usually hear that they continued in the apostolic tradition. Yet they taught works for salvation. Their teaching demonstrates that they were not apostolic at all but false teachers. They are neither of the church nor fathers, and they should not be called church fathers.

  22. Keith, this is a very good analysis of this passage.

    And, by the way, people leaving an SBC church may be doing so because they have awakened to the false gospel being taught by that apostate outfit.

  23. This morning on the radio I heard a Southern Baptist preacher who is well-known and well-regarded in my area say something to the effect that if a person does not continue to believe or remain in the fellowship of the church, then he never was saved to begin with. His “proof text” was 1 John 2:19, a favorite text of LSers in their attempts to support the doctrine of perseverance:

    “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us; but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us”.

    My take on 1 John 2:19 is that the false teachers who had mislead John’s readers had claimed apostolic authority for their teachings. The true motives of these teachers, however, was to teach false doctrine in order to gain a following for themselves. John was refuting the false teachings of these teachers and exposing their motives and the source of their teachings after they had tried to lead his readers astray (2:18, 26). Therefore, the “us” in the verse refers to the apostles and “continued with us” refers to continuing to hold to the correct doctrines of the apostles. Thus, the verse could read as follows, with my additions in parentheses:

    “They (the false teachers) went out from us (claimed to have been sent by the apostles and to have apostolic authority), but they were not of us (did not have apostolic authority); for if they had been of us (if they had had our authority to teach what they had been teaching), they no doubt would have continued with us (would have continued to teach correct doctrine to John’s readers); but they went out (their teachings departed from correct doctrine), that they might be manifest that they were not all of us (they never had apostolic authority to teach what they had taught).

    John was not questioning whether the false teachers were saved or lost since only God knows whether they had ever believed the Gospel, but was exposing the source of their teachings (Matthew 7:18).

    Any thoughts?

  24. Amen Sister

    Joh 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
    Joh 18:34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

  25. Curtis, maybe there should be a test as to whether that pastor is approved by of the Lord. A pastor is not to lord it over another. The least of the body he is to esteem as the most honorable. He is to be prepared with the gospel daily and be in the strong meat of His Word so he has discernment between good and evil. Most of all, many of these men are studying with other men’s approval in mind, rather than God’s, so they have a reformed theologian teaching them rather than the Holy Spirit.

  26. Fryingpan, I agree. There is no assurance in wondering whether one’s belief is “heartfelt.”

  27. I was told i’m looking for a “Curtis Church” . also that i’m a lower than low that i would dare question the pastor about the gospel saying he don’t know the gospel..
    my response was “hey I don’t know the gospel myself ……. thankfully the gospel knows me (the new man) my old sinful nature don’t want to know the gospel or I wouldn’t have to remind myself continually and agreeing with God against myself .

    sure is something how the Gospel stirs things up , The cross is offensive .

    Thank you all for prayer and comments on this blog . I was able to lie down and have a restful sleep

  28. John, one of the follow-up comments after a question asked by that website you quote is:

    If your heartfelt answer is, “Yes”, then we can go to Him now in prayer, and we can tell Him that you want to cease trusting in anything else for Eternal Salvation, especially in what you can do for yourself.

    Um . . . even if by some miracle of twisted logic all of it were the gospel and not full of error, why the qualifier on the answer being ‘heartfelt’? Can’t they see the fallacy in putting the emphasis on the intent of the one seeking salvation?

    (That’s a rhetorical question. Of course they can’t.)

    A mash-up of a contradiction inside a hodge podge of an inconsistency . . .

  29. Bryan noted:

    One pastor said, “My church will have some Arminians, some 5 point Calvinists, and some 0 point Calvinists, but what I love about our church is that we are all here in unity and we take pride in that.”

    Interesting. Isn’t that the mindset of the “seeker-sensitive”, contemplative and/or emerging church? “We’re not divisive! We accept people for what they are! We ain’t picky! We gots diversity and we’re PROUD OF IT!!”

    I’ve seen that we’re-proud-of-us meme in so many church website belief statements. I guess they’ve forgotten what the Bible says about pride.

    I don’t expect that everybody (or anybody) in any given church will be doctrinally perfect, but when “tolerance” of LS is preached from the pulpit, I’m gone. How could I trust a pastor who won’t stand for the Truth?

    Sounds like you and I are in the same boat, Bryan.

  30. Bryan, it is sad. There is no unity in being yoked with unbelievers.

  31. Wow, if I didn’t know any better, I would have thought both of y’all were visiting churches in my area. I have dealt with the exact same situation with several preachers seeing no problem with preaching grace, yet distributing LS material and associating with other preachers and organizations who promote the LS gospel. I’ve had meetings with several who have told me that “I’m being too picky, or over thinking it.” They don’t want to start a debate between LS members and the grace members, because unity is their top priority. One pastor said, “My church will have some Arminians, some 5 point Calvinists, and some 0 point Calvinists, but what I love about our church is that we are all here in unity and we take pride in that.” It’s sad and frustrating to say the least.

  32. Curtis, I found the following on the internet this morning, from a site that has a back-end test of self-righteousness to determine whether or not you are saved. Bold highlights in the quotes are mine.

    Here is a sample:

    2. The entire book of First John was written as a “test” for determining the reality of salvation. Verse three of Chapter one tells us: “What we have seen and [ourselves] heard we are also telling you, so that you too may realize and enjoy fellowship as partners and partakers with us. And [this] fellowship that we have (which is a distinguishing mark of Christians) is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ, the Messiah.” The fellowship enjoyed by genuine Christians is proof positive of salvation. Those who claim Christ, but yet rarely attend church to worship God and associate with other believers, are possibly fooling themselves! A backslidden Christian can stay out of church and away from other believers, but I can guarantee you from first-hand experience that there will never be a time when you will be comfortable with it! On the other side of the coin, verse 8 teaches us that if we deny the existence of sin within us, the Truth is not in us. Verse 3 of Chapter two teaches us that we are genuine and “growing in grace and knowledge of Christ”, if we keep His commandments. Verse 10 teaches us that we are of Christ if we love the brethren. Again, those who habitually absent themselves from God’s house and do not make it clear that they love being around God’s children, are very likely to be tares and not wheat. Verse 15 teaches us that if anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. “Worldly Christians” is almost a contradiction in terms and those who claim Christ, but yet cling to the value system of this world-are suspect.

    3. 1 John 5:13 informs us that the entire Book of 1 John was written so that we can know that we possess eternal life in Christ. Do you know for absolute certainty that, if you were to die tonight, you would go to Heaven?7. Do you love–really love–Christians and would rather be with them than anyone else? Can you meet a total stranger, find out that they are a believer, and then have instant fellowship with them? Is there “something” in your heart that draws you to them and establishes a closeness which cannot be explained any other way? [We alluded to this feature in Paragraph 2, above]

    8. Do you actually enjoy giving to the Lord’s work? Do you give generously of your time, talent, and treasury?

    9. Do you sin less now than you did prior to receiving Christ?

    10. Have other people seen the “fruit of the Spirit” at work in your life? That is, can they see genuine love, joy, peace, long-suffering, etc., (Gal.5:22), being wrought in and through you by God’s Holy Spirit? Do they sense that you are a different person from the one you used to be?

    11. Have you experienced persecution because of your faith in Christ? (Former friends who back away because of your testimony for Christ, are a subtle form of persecution).

    12. Are you eagerly expecting and anticipating the any-moment return of Jesus Christ for His Church?

    If you can truthfully answer “yes” to these questions, you are a child of God and the Holy Spirit dwells within you! If you cannot truthfully answer “yes” to these questions, then you are probably not saved and you need to go to the bottom of this page to the Salvation message and go through the steps in honesty and sincereness of heart so you can be saved!

    My comment: Sir, are you serious? Your “firsthand experience” is a guarantee? This is looking to oneself for assurance of salvation. You will never find it there.

    And, here is the “cure” if you answer “no” to some of these questions:

    Saving Faith is trusting in Jesus Christ, and Him alone, for your Salvation.

    If you think you need to do anything for Salvation except trust in Jesus work on the cross, you are guilty of violating Ephesians 2:8-9 and Isaiah 53:6b. Most cults and false Christian religions err at this point; they add things that are “necessary” for Salvation, or they offer a counterfeit way to Heaven, i.e., Salvation by Baptism.

    Do you want this Gift of Eternal Life that Jesus left Heaven and died on a cross to give you? If your answer is, ‘Yes’, you can immediately have Eternal Life.

    Let me clarify exactly what this involves. First, you are going to transfer your trust, your hope of eternal life from what you have been doing to what Jesus Christ has done for you on the cross. Jesus will take your sin and transfer TO YOU His right standing with God the Father, what we call His righteousness . This means that though we have failed repeatedly to keep God’s commandments, Christ perfectly obeyed all the laws of God. He lived the perfect life, so He could be the perfect, innocent substitutionary sacrifice that God would accept for your sins, and the sin of the entire world, for all who will believe.

    Are you willing to repent of your sins right now, and become a responsible member of God’s forever family, following Him and serving Him as a member of His forever family, following Him and serving Him as a member of His body, the Church? If your heartfelt answer is, “Yes”, then we can go to Him now in prayer, and we can tell Him that you want to cease trusting in anything else for Eternal Salvation, especially in what you can do for yourself. You can place your trust in Him and Him alone for salvation. Before we pray this simple prayer, I need to point our that the Lord Jesus Christ is looking at your heart more than His is listening to your lips. As He promised, “Ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when [after] ye shall search for Me with all your heart.” (Jeremiah 29:13).

    My comment: This is completely self-contradictory. If you are going to trust in Christ alone for salvation, how can it involve willingness to follow Him, serve Him as a member of His forever family, repent of your sins, and so on?

    This is the double-speak that is going on in “Churchianity” today. This is not faith in Christ. It is faith in works. This is not Christianity. It is “churchianity” – a false gospel, a substitute for the real gospel.

  33. Curtis, my wife and I briefly attended a church that had a pastor who exhibited the same type of phenomenon. He said that he thought “repent” meant “a change of mind,” but he had no problem with the “Baptist Faith and Message” (this was a small Southern Baptist Church). We tried to explain how the “Baptist Faith and Message” was antithetical to grace, but he wouldn’t have any of it.

    Some friends of ours later had the same pastor tell them that he did not believe in Lordship “salvation,” but he didn’t believe in “easy believeism” either. Our friends told us that they wished they had told the pastor that he needed to pick one. I agree.

    As time has gone on, this pastor and his church have become more ardently LS in their associations. My point in all of this is that tolerance for LS often tips the hand of someone who really believes LS deep down, or someone who is willing to compromise to gain, or keep, a larger constituency.

    I also have another friend who believes in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, but doesn’t think that faith in Christ plus something else necessarily annuls grace. I had lunch with him recently, and we talked about it. I think I made some progress by showing him Romans 11:6:And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    Whatever the case, I have prayed for you in trying to reason with the pastor, and for the pastor to become clear on this matter.

    It is not semantics!

    From Clear Gospel:

    This belief is not only wrong, it is an error that threatens the eternal destiny of every man, woman and child on the planet. For it reduces the gospel of grace to a gospel of works. Scripture teaches with unmistakable clarity that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law, (Romans 3:28) and that to entrust one’s eternal salvation to one’s own obedience to God’s laws is to frustrate God’s offer of the gift of forgiveness of sins and eternal life, and make void the promise (Romans 4:4-5, 24; 11:6-7, Galatians 5:1-4).

    And, from Calvary Community Church, Tampa:

    Many teach repentance for salvation incorrectly by including some form of human effort or righteousness, such as willingness to turn from sin, or turning from sin. This is heresy and has confused many people because it adds works to salvation. This is “Galatianism”, which is a counterfeit of the Gospel and is completely unscriptural.

    A believer who tolerates LS is a double-minded man, unstable in all of his ways (James 1:8).

  34. “If anyone claims to believe in a false gospel of works, we should take him at his word. He needs to be treated as an unbeliever, since simultaneous belief in a false gospel and the real Gospel of Christ is impossible! We should lovingly confront such a religious “professor” of faith in Christ with his disbelief. We must proclaim the Gospel, and if possible, show him from the Bible why his false gospel is false. The Lord does not require ANY works to acquire His gift of salvation – it is FREE. Grace and Works are polar opposites and CANNOT coexist as a means of salvation! (Romans 11:6)”

    I recently attended a church were pastor preached a solid Grace alone Faith Alone In Christ alone message BUT then also agrees with a Repent of Sins Law Works Gospel that is posted on their website and hands out works for salvation tracts and sees no difference (at this time) in the 2 messages but blamed it on me playing on language problems “symannics” that i should be graceful to those of child like faith . he does agree that repent does mean “to change mind” .
    puzzled found this post on expreacherman to help me understand why this happens and the remedy.
    appreciate your prayer support for myself and this pastor , don’t know how much further I should go with this


  35. Phil

    Thanks — Great observation..,

    I believe the Gaithers are Church of God and Lowrey was Southern Baptist, both works “salvationists.

    So that explains a lot.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  36. Phil, the LS community needs some new songs.

    Maybe they could come up with a catchy tune and some clever lyrics that reflect their theology: “Trust (in Jesus) but Verify (by inspecting works).”

  37. Yikes!! I played a U Tube video of one of these Gather family reunions (this must of been number 120 or something). Anyway they were all singing “Victory in Jesus”,( Mark Lowery too), and they all, smiling, sang that by repenting of their sins THEY won the victory. Well, I thought Jesus won it for us. But what really got me is that they had this big mural size painting of the Rev.Billy Graham, “America’s greatest preacher” and advocate of forsaking sins as a necessary step involved to get to heaven.

    Needless to say, no more Gathers anything for me.

  38. Phil, I kind of think they feel more secure looking at others, comparing themselves, thinking they’re better (they don’t do this or that), and if they knew Him at some point, they’ve forgotten how they received eternal life. If they don’t, they never will with that teaching, we could never be/do enough…

  39. Phil, I don’t know how these guys think they pass the “tests.” I wonder how often they take them, if they average the grades, if they think the tests are graded on a curve, and so on.

  40. Here’s some advise: When you run into any JM LS legalists here, on another forum, or anywhere, ask them to tell you, what level they must reach in their Lordship salvation discipleship to secure everlasting life? Second, ask them how they are coming along in their Christian growth and when they will ever grow enough to make it to heaven? And what if they die and their efforts have not measured up to the heavenly standards to enter heaven? What if they have stumbled in their “perseverance?”
    I have a feeling legalists never look much at themselves in the mirror, but that these JM LS impossible standards are meant for the other guy and for Bible thumping us “easy believeismists.”

  41. I remember this leader in this LS Bible church that I mentioned before that I ended up quitting who scoffed at the notion of imputed righteousness. Once during a church service we were singing the “Victory in Jesus” hymn, when we got to the verse, “Then I repented of my sins and won the victory,” he was in one of the front pews and turned and looked back a the rest of us seemingly to reinforce that one must repent of their sins to be saved. This fellow was a Geneva Bible and later John MacArthur Study Bible toting Calvinist. At first he sounded like he was grace alone, that is until you got under the surface. This seems to be true of all Calvinists: they will herald sola gracia, sola fide, but you have to get to the part of perseverance confirming and finalizing ones complete redemption. I almost hate to say this, but the hymn “Victory in Jesus” really turns me off because of the “repent of sins” verse. And if it is ever sung in my present church, I will just walk out and never return to that church. Thankfully, so far, my present church hasn’t shown any signs of legalism, and is grace only.

  42. David Wyatt

    Thanks — Very perceptive — seems like that song is LS all the way.

    But if we really analyze some hymn books we will find many that fit that mold. One in particular is “Victory in Jesus” the phrase, “I repented of my sin and gained the victory.” Great melody — but false doctrine.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  43. Excellent points Phil! I came to the party late on this one, but I was noticing the “Christian” song above, and couldn’t help all the focus on “I…I…I…I” and very little on the Lord except that He WILL shine if He is in us. Very telling, IMHO.

  44. You mention, “gatekeepers”. In my experience this is the main group of LS’ers and legalists. They have the underlying attitude of moral superiority. They will either believe that they are living right or have cleaned up their lives to be pleasing to God. And the idea that one can simply trust in Christ’s saving work alone and be saved once and for all really angers them. I have experienced this ridicule myself. Some of them really believe that once a person trusts Christ for salvation that’s their cue to go out and ‘”live like the devil” and sin as much as they want. Or they somehow believe that the cross was just some sort of jump start leading to true discipleship which must be coupled with the cross to complete ones salvation.
    It’s almost like the Prodigal’s brother envy who wanted an equal treatment playing field. He claimed to have always been faithful and resented the father’s lavishing grace on his sinful unworthy brother.
    I think the legalists, LS or otherwise, believe that since we reap what we sew in our worldly lives, then the same must apply to our reaping and sewing our eternal salvation. I have seen them twist different isolated verses trying to support their points, yet at the same time ignoring the large amount of passages that make it abundantly clear that salvation an unconditional free gift received by anyone who will take it in faith.

    IMO, all legalists and LSers are all gatekeepers.

  45. here is a thought to chew on Identity theft

    wouldn’t that be the cross hairs of the Gospel our Identity of of who we our in Christ Jesus ?

    just wonder what could of the “Lord Lord” souls done in His name with correct Identity and motives ?

    Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

    Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

  46. Curtis, you bring up a good point about James 1:14. I think it might be similar to the thought in Galatians 1:6: I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

    “Removed” and “drawn away” I think are both clearly addressing born again Christians.

    I also want to discuss this “evidence” of salvation concept some more. We cannot see other peoples’ faith. The only clear indication that someone has comprehended the gospel message is if they can articulate it in simple terms. If someone cannot do this, it is hard to conclude that they are saved – no matter how they act. If someone can articulate the gospel clearly, and professes to believe it, then there is no need to evangelize them – no matter how they act.

    Matthew 5:13:

    Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

    Colossians 4:5-6:

    [5] Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.
    [6] Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

    Just as we cannot see other peoples’ faith, We can see other peoples’ works.

    Matthew 5:14-16:

    [14] Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
    [15] Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
    [16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    Note that Jesus does not say “that they may see your faith”. He says “that they may see your good works.”

    Also, good works done in His name may cause men to glorify God. But, they DO NOT qualify anyone for heaven.

    Matthew 7:21:23:

    [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

  47. It took me some pondering reading over the lyrics it just now hit me. There is no mention of Jesus in that song. Any other religion in the world system could read over that lyrics or listen to the song and identify with it to their god.

    with a lot of perversion’s of THE Gospel sometimes it is what is NOT said that’s the hook

    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

  48. That’s the snag with the original lyrics sure it does sound good to someone focused on the old nature and not focused on who we are in Christ Jesus. Jesus and the new nature should be our focus if not jump on board the performance treadmill and have at it

    I have been chewing on this verse pondering ” Drawn Away ”

    what are I/we drawn away from ?

    our identity of who we our in Christ Jesus in order to be drawn away we must be somewhere to drawn away from ?

    i like how Johninc worded the lyrics flipping the focus on who We know we our in Christ Jesus

    Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

  49. Jon, the part that is particularly confusing is the repeated line “If You’re really inside changing my life.” The Bible tells us that every Christian is indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:13-14:

    [13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    [14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    These lyrics seem to indicate that the writer knows he has new life and wants to follow Christ wholeheartedly. But, there are still much clearer ways to express this. Maybe something like:

    “You want me to make a difference
    You want it to be significant
    I know You’re inside of me, wanting to change my life.”

  50. John, that guy’s ‘changed life’ philosophy reminds me of this ‘christian rock’ song that always made me cringe. Hope it’s OK to post the lyrics(I’m not endorsing them at all): Philmont – the Difference
    I checked the map to make sure that I got it right
    But still I don’t know where You’re taking me tonight
    And I’ve tried so hard to mix the old life with the new
    But there’s no in between if I’m gonna follow You

    There’s gotta be a difference
    It’s gotta be significant
    If You’re really inside changing my life
    You would shine, You would be evident
    If there’s a difference
    If there’s a difference

    Here I am, I’ve got this baggage by my side
    But I am ready now to leave it all behind
    So I’m taking this moment to tell You I’m open
    I’m taking this moment to give You everything

    There’s gotta be a difference
    It’s gotta be significant
    If You’re really inside changing my life
    You would shine, You would be evident
    If there’s a difference, difference

    We’re not meant to be another face in the crowd

    There’s gotta be a difference
    It’s gotta be significant
    If You’re really inside changing my life
    You would shine, You would be evident
    If there’s a difference
    There’s gotta be a difference
    It’s gotta be significant
    ‘Cause You’re really inside changing my life
    And it’s so evident that there’s a difference
    There’s a difference

  51. “Satan sends errors into the world in pairs. He hopes that your dislike of one error will drive you into the opposite extreme. Your dislike of Calvinism and legalism has driven you to completely ignore scripture. Calvinism exalts one truth above all the other truths. You ignore much of the new testament in order to justify your belief.”

    “Satan sends errors into the world”

    satans cross hairs are square on the gospel my friend only takes 1 error to disorient and torment a soul for all eternity that Jesus is not enough

    “Your dislike of Calvinism and legalism”

    Calvanism is legalism , so is Arminism they are both un biblical and both systems of thought.

    “Calvinism exalts one truth above all the other truths”

    All of the Gospel is the Truth but not all Truth is the gospel
    Jesus is the Way the Truth the Life … Let Jesus be exulted not Calvinism

    the opposite side of Calvinism is arminisum or the other extreme
    Jesus paid for my sin ,I am not a sinner, got doesn’t see my sin, I no longer have a sin nature, which are biblical Truths but not trusting Jesus as Savior God still holds your unbelief against you . the bible does teach we still have a sin nature and Gods desire is for us to have a New nature that does not sin by the shed blood of Jesus when we trust him as savior..
    there are consequences for sin and of sin but the eternal penalty has been paid for . There are rewards to desiring to live a surrendered life to Jesus but not to be saved or because we are saved .
    It can take a soul decades to master a besetting sin and some souls sin masters them over and over their entire lives but that does not mean they are not saved it just means the old nature is alive and well.

    I pray for this gentleman and appreciate his thoughts here I pray he would see the Truth of the Gospel

  52. The e-mailer who insisted that Christians lives would show change once they were saved, showed his true beliefs with a follow-up e-mail today:

    Following are some excerpts:

    An unsaved man loves his sin and remains unsaved due in part because he refuses to give his sin up. He might understand he needs to be saved, but he will not come to the light in repentance and forsake his sin. The love of sin is the mark of a lost man.

    My comment: this is just a slight twist on the old “turn from sin for salvation” heresy. This man thinks salvation is a trade instead of a gift.

    There is a reason that what you believe and pass off as the Gospel differs from not only what all the old greats preached, but what the apostles preached as well. It’s because you are teaching a modern Gospel.

    My comment: No. We are teaching the Gospel. It is not new. The “greats” to whom he is referring (Spurgeon, etc.) were teaching an old, false gospel.

    Satan sends errors into the world in pairs. He hopes that your dislike of one error will drive you into the opposite extreme. Your dislike of Calvinism and legalism has driven you to completely ignore scripture. Calvinism exalts one truth above all the other truths. You ignore much of the new testament in order to justify your belief.

    My comment: This gentleman doesn’t give Satan enough credit. He sends error into the world in every imaginable combination. This gentleman has let Satan convince him that the absolute truth of the gospel is “extreme.”

    Bottom line: If someone insists on back-door LS, there is often a disbelief in the gospel at the root of their insistence.

  53. Kim wrote
    “We humans are naturally prone to want the rules spelled out for us, to know what it is that we are to *do*. And this is appealing because of our pride.”

    I had a conversation with a Pastor friend similar to this some people like those who have been in prison unfortunately want to go back because they want to be told what to do and what to believe and be told everything to do.

  54. I think your observation is key, Curtis. Money, notoriety, ego may be among the biggest factors that drive those authors to write those books. It’s interesting because the LS folks are convinced that their way must be right because it’s ‘harder’, so to speak, while they see ‘our way’, Free Grace, as too ‘easy’. But if you think about it, their way is easier because all they have to do is live according to their own standard, which simply becomes whatever it is that they do, and hat being different for each preacher and each person. We humans are naturally prone to want the rules spelled out for us, to know what it is that we are to *do*. And this is appealing because of our pride. We tend to want to be able to say that we did what we were supposed to do, and did not do what we were not to do. But they are missing or forgetting that God’s standard is perfection. And they are missing that there is to be no boasting, therefore nothing to boast about. But keeping readers/followers convinced that he/she has the right formula for what their readers are to do to be saved keeps them dependent on that preacher/author, keeping the money flowing, and maybe most importantly, stroking that ego and feeding that pride through the number of members, readers, or followers a preacher has, the number of interviews they get with the media, the invitations they get from important people, etc. Maybe.

  55. I was looking at the amount of bibles sold just a study bible from a twisted gospel preacher teacher over 6 million copies sold .

    Now ad to that books books books buy another book to understand and how do you sell books ? perversion out sells Truth.
    maybe most don’t know they are under a spell and don’t know what they are doing because they have such a large following they must be doing good. We need to keep praying for them to see the Truth of the Gospel

    make merchandise of you, make merchandise of you
    2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

  56. I was just discussing with a friend of mine at work today why people write book upon book trying to prove that “a true Christian will …”

    Why is it so important for these people to attempt to persuade others that unless certain changes are happening in their lives, they might not have eternal life?

    Of what possible benefit is this false doctrine to its purveyors?

    A recent example from an e-mail we received:

    When we are regenerated there is an undeniable change made in us. One that can’t go unnoticed. A changed life doesn’t merit salvation, but I guarantee you that salvation will cause a changed life.

    Why is this so important a message to convey?

    Could it be that Satan has convinced people to seek validation of their salvation based on the changes in their lives? If so, what is the benchmark? How much change? How different an attitude toward sin? How much holiness? How many good works?

    If our behavior, attitudes toward sin, holiness, or good works could be used to validate our salvation, that would mean there are subjective standards, short of perfection, by which we could justify ourselves. The Bible says we are justified by Christ’s righteousness – not our own. And not our own plus His.

    If Satan can get us to look to our changed lives for assurance, or validation of our salvation, then he can easily turn the tables on us and rob us of our assurance based on our failures.

    Our assurance must be based on God’s Word alone. Adding our experiences to the equation is a recipe for disaster.

  57. Thank you all for your concern and your strictness , I have also adopted the expreacherman doctrinal statement and the Free Grace Alliance Covenant as my own personal standard to help keep me in balance.
    I have it on my kindle to study regularly

    Practicing Truth

  58. Curtis,

    It is good that you are aware of the problems with the SOL statement of faith.

    Many years ago I subscribed when John R. Rice was Editor and he occasionally would mess up repentance with “a turn from sin message.”

    Here is an excerpt from Rice’s tract, “What Must I Do To Be Saved”:

    “To repent literally means to have a change of mind or spirit toward God and toward sin. It means to turn from your sins, earnestly, with all your heart, and trust in Jesus Christ to save you. You can see, then, how the man who believes in Christ repents and the man who repents believes in Christ. The jailer repented when he turned from sin to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    We see this is totally confusing and false, not as bad as some but still inaccurate.

    I recall no such nonsense when Curtis Hutson was in charge of SOL. I had the privilege of talking with Curtis Hutson privately, one-on-one and he seemed very straight and clear on God’s Grace at that time.

    Curtis, you keep doing what you are doing — keep your eyes open and be Biblically aware. Grow in Grace!!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  59. I hear you John , I did read SOL statement of faith and agree there are to many words added to believing. Curtis Hutson is one of my favorite preachers but I don’t agree with alter calls. Independent fundamental Baptist need to be very careful of.
    I will be keeping my guard up . Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

  60. Curtis, I am not real familiar with “Sword of the Lord”. I think their beliefs may have varied over the years, as leaders have come and gone.

    Their current statement of beliefs is kind of confusing. The following is an excerpt from their statement of beliefs:

    WE BELIEVE salvation is received when a person honestly sincerely, consciously and deliberately repents (changes their mind about God, Acts 20:21) and places their faith (trust) in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour (Acts 20:21, Rom. 10:9-10, Eph. 2:8-9, John 1:12).

    My comment: I don’t really understand how someone could insincerely or unconsciously change their mind. I don’t really understand the use of the term “sincere” with respect to repentance, because it generally connotes something other than “a change of mind”. I believe “repentance toward God” in Acts 20:21 means a change of mind about God’s gracious purpose in providing for the salvation of mankind through Jesus Christ.

  61. Giving you an update my friends , I did find a local assembly about 15 minutes away from me , were they have a sound doctrinal statement with a KJV only bonus. I did have email dialog with the pastor about repentance before going to the assembly. I used statements about repentance with help from Jack and the pastor did agree to them. It was refreshing to even find a pulpit were the Pastor didn’t fuss and fight with me over salvation concerning repentance .
    When I showed up at church for prayer meeting I was greeted with a warm welcome from all I met just for who I am and not what I do if you know what I mean. The mark of a soul winning assembly to me. It was also very refreshing to witness a Pastor simply open the bible and read from it and allow the word to do its work among the hearers of the word and from the KJV !!! I love the KJV to me it is the Master Piece among translation’s . Then we simply gathered in small groups and bring prayer before the throne of Grace. The believers I met seamed well informed on Lordship salvation and reformed theology. there was a crying out to see souls saved that I heard.
    I wished I could say I endured in seeking to find a assembly but I did give up and told my wife I am done done done looking for a local assembly I had enough of pastors fussing with me over a simple word “repent”. How I found it was I was going to a job site and missed my turn and my gps rerouted me passed the church. I went down roads that I have not been down a long time and passed this church I once attend for prayer breakfast over 10 years ago and had forgotten about.
    couple days before going to prayer meeting I was on Sword of the Lord website and was wondering how I might get a copy of the news paper to check out because I have never seen it . so I show up for prayer meeting and there as I walked in the door was a stack of Sword of the Lord News Papers. How cool is that. God is so interested in the simplicity of things.
    I thank God for my friends here for praying for me. be encouraged my friends.


  62. Abe, great list, have heard many variations on that theme… “Judge not lest ye be judged,” is one I hear quite frequently… (right before they judge you for judging) 🙂

  63. i think it is interesting in Jude after the warning about the false teachers in the verses 3-16 in verses 22, 23 Jude turns to believers giving advice about believers who may be as Jude says in 1:22, “And have mercy on those who waver; 1:23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; have mercy on others, coupled with a fear of God, hating even the clothes stained by the flesh.”
    What you have here is three examples of believers: ones that are in doubt (waver) this is believers who have actual questions which cause their faith to waver. they are weak in the faith. the strong believers are to extend mercy to those who, due to their weakness in the faith, may have leanings toward the teaching the of the false teachers. the second group: save others by snatching them out of the fire. the second group must be approached with boldness as if snatching them from the fire. why? because this second group has gone beyond just doubting and raising questions. they are involved with false doctrines. so the believers are told to save (not spiritual salvation from hell) them from the false teachings. The third group: have mercy on others, coupled with a fear of God. this group of believers has gone beyond the first two groups and are spreading false teaching. the believers Jude is addressing must use caution in dealing with this group have mercy but with fear do not be influenced by the false teachings (hating even the clothes stained by the flesh) here are examples that i would say the lordship group would label as false believers but the Bible does not.

  64. Curtis,

    You are right. Some LS types will use I John 1:9 as a salvation verse. It is not as it is referring to our fellowship in our relationship with God. We as believers will always be His children though our fellowship can be strained when we sin. Therefore, “I am to Confess (agree with God) my sin as a believer to restore fellowship with God NOT for salvation.” is correct.

    ““repent of sin” is a attempt to establish ones own righteousness ?” For an unbeliever it would be an attempt to do just that. This is why we should be careful how we teach on repentance.

    Jim F

  65. john wrote: “The more I read and hear, the more I am convinced that one of the primary reasons that Calvinism/LS is so prominent is because believers equivocate in the name of spiritual unity with apostate churches.”

    It’s really due to namecalling scripts put out there by ecumenically-minded people. That is why some believers cave to the lies of things like Calvinism. Namecalling scripts scare some people off from true Biblical discernment. Namecalling scripts like:

    “Don’t judge!”
    “It’s very hateful to talk about who you think is wrong”
    “They are a great servant of God, how dare you?”
    “We all call on the Name of Jesus, don’t we?”
    “Jesus said to love one another”
    “Jesus prayed that we would all be one”
    “We all see through a glass dimly”
    “They say they are Christians, and that should be good enough for you”
    “It’s time to break down the barriers, and stop being tribal”

    And the one I hate the most…

    “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things, charity”

    That one is the granddaddy of all obfuscation.

    But they’re all nonsense and unbiblical. Yet they do scare some people off from coming to the truth about the devilish ways of the ecumenical movement.

  66. Following are thoughts on repenting from sin from Clear Gospel Campaign:

    Repentance from Sin:

    Although the phrase “repent of your sins,” never occurs in the Bible, it is certainly not unbiblical to do so. If you take two points from this discussion of repentance, they are this: sin is not the automatic or intrinsic object of repentance, and in verses dealing with eternal salvation, sin is never even the implied object of repentance. But one can repent of their sins…

    Repentance from sin is essential for Christian growth and sound Christian living.

    But the Scriptures never remotely suggest that repentance from sin is a requirement for eternal redemption through Jesus Christ. God grants us eternal life freely through the blood of his Son.

    Repentance from sin has been necessary for certain nations to avoid his temporal judgment.

    Repentance from sin may be a way for an individual to avoid God’s discipline.

    Repentance from sin is certainly necessary to avoid the natural consequences of sin…

    Finally, repentance from sin is certainly necessary if we hope to hear the words of commendation “well done good and faithful servant” by our Creator.

    Nevertheless, Scripture never presents repentance from sin as a requisite of God for securing the benefit of eternal salvation, which is the gift of God.

  67. Curtis, I’m not sure I understand your question. In order to be saved, someone must know he is a sinner and in need of a Savior. But, confession is not required for salvation.

    You are right that “repenting of sin” for salvation is not Biblical.

    If someone thinks that they must “repent of sin” by internally resolving to turn from their sins or that they must be willing to turn from sin to be saved, then they are trying to establish their own righteousness. In essence, they are trying to trade their willingness to turn from sin for God’s gift of salvation.

  68. “Verse 21 makes it clear that the person that “doeth truth” comes to Christ, acknowledges His righteousness, and their own unrighteousness.”

    to me this is were ” repent of sin” “turn from sin” is such a deceptive teaching of LS. it sounds good but to me it appears that it is toying with sin.”repent of sin” is not in scripture. I am to Confess (agree with God) my sin as a believer to restore fellowship with God NOT for salvation.
    and my sin is condemned to Hell In Christ who paid for sin.
    “repent of sin” is a attempt to establish ones own righteousness ?

    Thank you for comments


  69. Curtis, more on the John 3 passage:

    “[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    [19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

    A person who rejects Christ rejects Christ’s righteousness. That is, because Christ’s righteousness reveals their unrighteousness. Until a person realizes that righteousness can only be had through Christ, he cannot accept Christ. This means repenting of ALL hope of self-righteousness.

    Verse 20 makes this clear. The person that “doeth evil” in this verse is the person who rejects Christ. Their rejection of Christ is the “evil” being written of in this verse. A person must be convinced that they are unrighteous and that Christ is righteous in order to accept Him as Savior. Those who “hate the light” do not want to accept this.

    Verse 21 makes it clear that the person that “doeth truth” comes to Christ, acknowledges His righteousness, and their own unrighteousness.

  70. Curtis, this verse is speaking about unbelievers who are reveling in sin AND unbelief.

    “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    1. ” …ordained to this condemnation” – see John 3:18

    “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

    2. “Ungodly men…” – God justifies ungodly men solely on the basis of their faith in Christ. These particular men appear to be ungodly, and unjustified. See Romans 4:5:

    “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

    3. “Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness…” – notice that it does not say “their God.”

    4. “…and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ” – notice it says they are BOTH turning grace into lasciviousness AND denying God and Christ.

    Grace is not a license to sin. But, every time we choose to sin, we are giving ourselves a temporary license to do it. Some will say that a true believer will never sin intentionally, but this is just not the case.

  71. My comment on text is Jude 1:4 ……….turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness……..

  72. been chewing on this text of scripture this am, your above comment adds evidence. Under my spell of LS I thought this was pertaining to a “License to sin” .
    I had that thought this Am that the above Scripture reference is denying grace in some way, and LS does that to me.
    Please sharpen me Sharpen me in righteousness

    Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    In Christ

  73. I don’t know how many of you remember the show “Green Acres.” A perfect example of an “equivocator” was the character “Hank Kimball” from that show.

    Following is a partial description of Mr. Kimball, compliments of Wikipedia:

    “Kimball was an unusual, perhaps unique, comic creation (played by Alvy Moore) who was a friendly, helpful but scatterbrained man apparently educated past his intelligence. Like most Green Acres characters he did not start out as confused and scatterbrained. Over the first season, he developed into the man who could not seem to remember anything, unless, as Oliver found out, you specifically told him not to remember it. He had an unusual self-correcting manner where he would make a statement, qualify it, correct it again, correct it further and then lose track of what he was saying entirely.”

  74. The more I read and hear, the more I am convinced that one of the primary reasons that Calvinism/LS is so prominent is because believers equivocate in the name of spiritual unity with apostate churches. This often leads to outright capitulation and apostasy.

    Equivocation means to “use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself.” The motives for equivocation may be to ease the conscience for taking part in the evil of these apostate churches, or to rationalize that people (friends and relatives) who teach and believe works for salvation are probably still saved.

    Some examples of equivocation are statements such as:
    1, “A believer’s behavior will change. Christian growth varies from person-to-person, but you always (or almost always) see changes.”

    My comment: 1 Corinthians 3:15 makes it absolutely clear that some believers will have little (or perhaps nothing) to show for how they have lived as Christians.

    ” If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

    2. “Someone cannot have their heart set against God in sin, and still accept Christ as Savior.”

    My comment: This is just another way of saying that one must be willing to turn from his sins for salvation. The person expressing this sentiment is really saying that someone who is willing to turn from sin MERITS salvation, while someone who is unwilling to turn from sin for salvation does not.

    Capitulation means to “cease to resist an opponent or an unwelcome demand; surrender.”

    The person who compromises the gospel is very likely to eventually stop believing it. A believer who capitulates to Lordship “salvation” has fallen away. He is still saved. But, he is the “second soil” from the parable of the Sower, that he would insist is not saved.

  75. I know what you mean Curtis, sometimes we don’t catch something because we are so happy to hear they correctly define one thing, we aren’t really hearing the whole story. I learn every day about “prove all things”. The thing is, you were instantly ready to hear and examine next to the light of His Word. That’s what we are to do, so many don’t sadly. And so many do not understand grace establishing their hearts…

    Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. Heb 13:8-9

  76. Curtis,

    Thanks — I concur with John.. We all should be growing in Grace and knowledge:

    2 Peter 3:18
    But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

    We here at ExP and in the Biblical free Grace Gospel community all need each other. After all we are in the minority by numbers but the majority in Truth.

    John 8:32
    And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    Shirley and I pray daily for our blessed fellowship of friends, commenters, readers and Administrators here at ExPreacherMan.com. We should do as the Apostle Paul gave us an example as he prayed for the believers in the Philippian church:

    Philip. 1:2-6
    Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  77. Curtis, you are growing in the knowledge of grace. Your experience can help others. We all need each other.

  78. Thank you my Friends for taking the time to listen to the audio and Jack for reviewing the doctrinal statement. When I saw the fundamentalist church I use too attend changed their doctrinal statement under salvation I about fell off my chair. It had not been changed in 40 some years. They had a mixed understanding of repentance prior to it. I stand corrected on the audio version of “genuine repentance” after reviewed by member’s on expreacherman when I heard a Preacher around my area state that repentance is ” a change of mind” I got excited and let my guard down the sermon is laced with LS and I give strong caution listening to it . Thank you my friends for watching my back and sharpening my discernment. That Lordship salvation is real slick and cunning.


  79. Looking forward to hearing it Curtis!

  80. Curtis, that is truly awesome and very encouraging!

  81. Be encouraged my friends as you contend for the Faith
    …….. jude 1:3 earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.”
    the assembly of believers i once attended who went through a split I used my testimony along with a Clear Gospel campaign booklet and sent it to several leaders , they have since changed their doctrinal statement to better reflex a Free Grace Gospel and this passed Sunday 10/13 the newly installed Pastor gave a spot on “repent” definition with a sermon entitled genuine repentance message it you would like the link to hear that message
    email me and I will send it to you , I don’t know if it is proper to post link to it here CRM5096@gmail.com

  82. John, it sure is foolishness to those who are perishing, they cannot accept it as a little child, so they become like the John MacArthur’s of the world and study it for eight years before they can rightly understand it. (I’ll try to get you MacArthur’s exact quote).

  83. johninnc, I’m SO grateful that God lead you and others like you to this blog.

  84. One motive for selling false gospels is that it is easy to get people to buy them. People sell what sells. The reason it’s easier to sell a false gospel of works is because it appeals to man’s fleshly nature. In other words, it only seems fair that we would have to trade something for our salvation.

    Our worldly system is one of “quid pro quo”, which is defined as “something given or received for something else.”

    Once someone has been sold a false gospel, he becomes a candidate for propagating the error.

    The Bible says the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that perish.

    1Corinthians 1:18: “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

    The Bible says that few will be saved.

    Matthew 7:14: ” Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

    The broad gate is easier to sell, fills up church buildings, and builds broad coalitions (aka the broad path that leads to destruction).

  85. Mark Harris, the pastor of First Baptist Church of Charlotte, NC and president of the North Carolina Baptist Convention is running for the US Senate. If he were to openly repudiate the false gospel of the SBC, how many votes do you think he would get?

  86. Kenneth Groenewald

    Yes Damon, I have found that it becomes increasingly difficult to have fellowship with LS folk. I can still have fellowship with those that have a different view on eschatology or whether Christ carried His cross on His left or right shoulder, but when it comes to the Gospel and or eternal security I would have to separate myself.

  87. Damon, I identify with your situation as I left a local Bible study for similar reasons earlier this year. I can’t really improve on John’s or d taylor’s input but for what it’s worth, you might also consider the following:

    How good are you at dealing with “confrontation”? Obviously you don’t want to look for a fight, but you might find yourself in one. I’m horrible with confrontation, so for me that was part of deciding to move on.

    But for me the most important part was knowing that I simply HAD to GET AWAY from even the slightest hint of false doctrine, and in this particular case there were at least 4 people involved who not only read books by LS teachers (I’m not going to go into many details here), but one couple defended their association with the teaching of 2 major league Calvinists, though they themselves claimed to not be Calvinists.

    For me I had to get away from their influence and the confusion. At best it would have been like being on spiritual clean up duty, indefinitely.

  88. Hi Kathleen!

    I also have my website on wordpress.com, that is who they are asking you to register with. The only thing this does is if you end up wanting to post, and you are signed in, you can post with no problem, it keeps out spam from webpages.

    Hope you will get registered and we’ll see you around more often 🙂

  89. Hi Kathleen,

    Worpress.com is a long and well-established and trusted discussion development site. Expreacherman.com is set up under the auspices of WordPress.com. They have been very helpful in many ways to us over the years.

  90. I keep trying to log in and sign up with you at both places but i keep getting an email to confirm and i keep confirming but it wants me to enroll in word com or something like that but I don’t wish to. Also why is it you dont publish on a TRUSTED SIGHT?

  91. John thanks i agree the parable of the sower is also excellent to refute false teachings.

  92. d taylor, this is excellent advice!

    It might also be interesting to ask them what they think the spiritual conditions of soils 2 and 3 from the Parable of the Sower are. If they say that either group is unsaved, then they have fallen prey to some bad teaching that may have reinforced their preexisting belief in salvation by works.

  93. Damon i would ask, do they believe: does it takes more than the Gospel of John to tell a person how to have eternal life/salvation. If they do, you could ask why (people who believe in faith plus works believe it takes the whole New Testament for a person to have salvation) Because in John 20:30,31 say it all about the Gospel of John and salvation. If they are really looking for correct teaching (and not just teaching to prop up their ideas) they should be open to the fact that in the Gospel of John belief/trust is stated as the only condition for a person receiving eternal life/salvation. also from John concerning if a person believes in confession for salvation ask them about John 12: 42,43, or in works ask them about John 6: 28,29
    If they do not accept the facts from John you might as well move on

  94. Damon, I might start with “The Gospel” tract from Clear Gospel Campaign.
    See link below:

    My experience with a similar group was that by taking a stand, it resulted in arguments. We mutually agreed that this might not be the Bible study for me.

  95. Thanks for all the great articles.
    I attend a bible study at a friend’s house and I am pretty sure no one else there has a free grace understanding of scripture.
    Is there a best or better way to introduce faith plus nothing that might not start arguments? Or is it best to just go somewhere else to learn?
    Don’t have much experience with this type of discussion and would appreciate your thoughts.
    Damon D

  96. John, it’s funny, when you even used the word paradox and exegesis, and what they are not compelled by, one thing I notice that they do seem to be compelled by is human wisdom, theological grammar-talk 🙂 and lording it over others. I have found that if you do not quote the passage reference, but you do quote the Word, that frequently they do not recognize the passage. Sad…

  97. DTaylor, you know,it’s funny, they are very “deep” and into plenty of digging when it comes to their own Biblical reasoning. Look at John MacArthur and his explanation of slave and the meaning of kyrios, he digs and digs and adds and adds. Sort of like how he adds to the meaning of the narrow gate, and narrow way, and goes into the striving part of entering, and pretty soon you have a list that’s 50 obligations before you can even enter…


  98. I found this quote and it makes sense to me having come out of false teaching myself.

    “Be aware that Scripture was designed to trap those who
    will allow themselves to be deceived. Surface meanings
    are deceptive. The disguised use of symbolism has caused
    many to fall into foolishness!”

  99. d taylor, you bring up a very good point. However, Calvinists are not usually compelled by sound Biblical exegesis, nor logic. The so-called “paradoxes” that they find in the Bible are not really there. They have just invented them, and then ascribe them to the “mysteries of God”.

  100. not sure if anyone has looked into Acts 13:48 in our English translations the verse reads: 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
    when i look this up in the Greek the verse read like this: 13:48 Ἀκούοντα δὲ τὰ ἔθνη ἔχαιρον καὶ ἐδόξαζον τὸν λόγον τοῦ |κυρίου| καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον·
    in English: Now hearing (this), the gentiles were rejoicing and were glorifying the word of the Lord and as many as believed had been appointed to eternal life.
    I asked a Calvinist one time about this verse in the Greek and he did not have an answer.
    The Greek really shoots down the Calvinist idea of election being before a person believes.

  101. Bruce.

    Thanks for that good research about Farstad.

    He has good credentials — except I know folks who graduated Wheaton and Dallas who went way off and away from the Gospel of God’s Grace, but I guess that can happen to anyone.

    Wonder also about the Farstad connection with Zane Hodges — but maybe that was before the terrible Crossless “Gospel” controversy with Hodges and GES.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  102. Curtis the word repent is not used at all in the Gospel of John. That is why the Gospel of John is such a great book of the Bible to battle lordship and other false teachings.

  103. Yes and what Holly said, that is another bible translation Logo’s 21, to me there is something special about the King James bible, for me it makes me smarter, I am not a King James only person but to me the King James Bible is the masterpiece among them all.

  104. Thanks Jack, I will try to do that for everyone, will do a little more research and if I can’t find it, I’ll try to call them 🙂

  105. I see a lot of believe and obey in that Living Waters Tract , , page 52 / chapter 15 , “But only those believers who obey his commands will experience a close personal relationship with the son of God” To me this also is a wrong interpretation of ‘Repent” , the goodness of God Leeds a soul to repentance Rom 2:4 , Repent = Change their mind of who God is and love toward us. I Love God and willingly want to obey Him but not out of duty. However most of the time I am in charge and learn the hard way. Jesus Love for me persist’s still No Matter what

  106. Thank you Bruce, I will check out the link, I heard though (which always makes me nervous) that his book was based on his own ‘Bible translation’, logos something or another. Thought maybe others would know, I do not know him, but will go check out Dtaylor’s link for more info.

  107. Hi Holly and Jack,

    Arthur Farstad (1935-1998) was a graduate of Wheaton College and Dallas Theological Seminary. He later served at Dallas Sem. as Professor of Greek and Chairman of New Testament. He published a number of books and did extensive research on the Majority Text of the New Testament from the Greek. 1n 1985, he co-authored with Zane Hodges, “The Greek New Testament According to the Majority Text.” He also served as executive editor of the New King James Bible Translation. His theology appears to be Free Grace, although I don’t know whether his views were influenced by Hodges or by GES.

  108. Here is the link to the online living water Gospel of John if yall want to post it.

  109. Holly,

    I do not know Farstad or his work — never read him. Maybe Bruce will comment.

    In Jesus eternally, Jack

  110. Holly,

    Don’t know the tract links — but I am sure you could call and get info at either Northland or Quentin Road.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  111. Maybe we could put the exact links for tracts, I see the gospel presented on Northland and Quentin Road, but I do not see tracts shown. Maybe also the link for the tracts for sale on Ron Shea’s site? I know he allows any Free Grace Believing Christian ministries to download his things for free.

  112. Thank you Jack, did not know that at all about Larry Moyers going in that direction… Another one bites the dust…. Praying he’ll get back to the true living water. Speaking of which is Farstad’s ok? I only know that he uses some new translation?

  113. Curtis, I like the Clear Gospel Campaign version of the Gospel. In particular, I like their explanations of grace, repentance, assurance, and eternal security.

    I like what you said about the broad and narrow way. This is how I would describe it as well.

  114. For me personally after the revival service almost 2 years ago and hearing “repent of sin for salvation” , I knew the present day gospel tracts had error . I set out to develop my own gospel tract it sounds simple but it is not after scouring the internet over and over I finally found The Clear Gospel Campaign, It is not only a gospel Tract but a good dose of sound doctrine. I little pricey at 2 bucks a pop but the Gospel deserves the very best in media presentation. No I have not come to place myself were I look at God pouring out His Wrath on Jesus on the Cross because there are several verses that contradict that. However Jesus the perfect lamb of God took the beating for Our sin/sins before Our first breath in this realm. We are Acceptable to God by Jesus finished work , something LS’s legalism like myself could not fully comprehend. I have recently discovered the the Broad and Narrow Way is not about sin , but about religions attempt to reach God apart from Christ . As soon as I put 1 thing in front of salvation other than Trust Christ Jesus Paid for my sin , you are on the broad way. It is not the poison that kills you but the Apple Pie . Rat’s die from Rat poison because it taste good.

  115. Kenneth,

    You might steer clear of Larry Moyer’s tracts. It is a little known fact and a shock to me, but it was reliably and recently reported to me that Larry has developed Calvinist tendencies, a sad surprise.

    Just be careful and be aware — You know the signs of false doctrine.

    Best bets are the one John recommended, Tom Cucuzza’s Northland Bible church:

    and also Jim Scudder’s church/college, Quentin Road Bible Baptist Church:

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  116. Kenneth Groenewald

    Thanks Holly,John and dTaylor for that help and advice.

  117. Arthur L. Farstad living water the Gospel of John is good

  118. Kenneth, you might also consider “Am I Going to Heaven”. You can get that from Northland Bible Baptist Church, I think.

  119. Kenneth, I don’t know for sure, but I think you can download pdf tracts from cleargospel.org.
    You might be able to purchase them there. I don’t remember if Ron Shea is KJV only, but I’m sure you could substitute if you prefer. Maybe some others can share.
    Have you ever thought about just getting your own printed? I like giving the gospel of John. You can get the for very little through Bearing Precious Seed (KJV) marked, but you might want to make sure the back doesn’t have the Lordship theme, and also purchased some gospel of John and Romans from Mercy and truth ministries, unfortunately although their covers were nice and thought it was just John & Romans, they had a repent of your win message in the back… So try to get a pure Word John or John and Romans, then I buy the Crayola colored pencils and I mark certain verses and tell them I marked them myself, seems to make more of a difference to people, they start thumbing through to see what I’ve marked.

  120. Kenneth Groenewald

    Is there anyone that can help me. I have been looking on the internet to purchase “free grace gospel tracts” but to no avail. The ones I’ve found start off good but there will always be something in them that I do not agree with, like for example the “what to pray” at the end of the tract, with “Lord I now repent of my sins” or how that one must, from this moment on “commit to turn from all sin”. I just want the gospel tract to explain how one gets saved without the need to commit or repent of one’s sins.
    I would greatly appreciate it if anyone could help me as I often go into Prisons and need some Gospel tracts that I could leave with the prisoners,preferably quoting from the KJB.
    Thanking you

  121. Matt D.

    I wonder what you would think about this statement. I saw this tonight and thought it possibly one of the saddest things I’ve seen a father say about his children… (He is a Calvinist) As a mother of many children, I wept for his poor little ones, this is tragic…

    Mr. Calvinist: “In Reformed churches all the children are taught and memorize the catechisms. My kids probably know more about the fall, law of God, covenant of grace, and the redemptive work of Christ than most professing Christians in the US. My son is only 9 months old, but my daughters 5 & 7 memorize scriptures everyday and memorize their children’s catechism.

    My oldest goes with me to the park and we witness together. (She is great at getting conversations going) I have seen her understanding of the gospel demonstrated as she also makes statements concerning Christ and His work to the people we talk to and I am often impressed at how much she retains and applies.

    ►They completely understand that God has a chosen people and that Christ died for ►them alone. We talk about the necessity of being born from above and that this is something God must do and is nothing man can do. I preach them the gospel everyday and ►demonstrate their inability to obey and their need of grace. (Holly here: What is obeying the gospel EXCEPT believing Isaiah’s report of the Messiah? Rom 10:14-17. So in essence, he is saying they are unable to believe…)

    They understand that ►repentance and ►faith are something God works in them. After, putting them in their room due to their disobedience,
    I hear them cry out to God to take away their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh and to help them obey.

    They understand the ►sovereignty of God and I have told them repeatedly that ►if God does not work in them that they will remain ►in their sins, but I also talk about the abundant mercy of God and that He casts none away that come to Him. So yes, I talk to them about ►limited atonement often and make sure they understand that Jesus actually saves and that from the beginning to the end it is His work alone. I hope this kills their activity, so that all they can do is cast themselves in His mercy, rather than their activity.

    Back to me speaking now: How horrifying to these little ones, and not at all what His Word teaches. He bought even the false prophets that deny Him. I am so thankful I had a father and mother teach me of the love of God toward all men….and the gift of salvation that was freely offered to all.

  122. John,

    Thanks for that excellent exegesis and presenting the Biblical logic of God’s Word.

    One wonders why seemingly intelligent folks fall for the illogical premises proposed by the man John Calvin and his followers.

    For Matt D.

    We have thoroughly examined the un-Biblical Calvinist catchword “Sovereignty.”

    Please read our article:
    “Sovereignty: Calvinist and Lordship ‘Salvation’ Catchword or Crutch?”


    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  123. Matt D., interesting comments regarding Calvinism.

    You said: ” If Calvinist has tried to tell you that we believe in anything other than salvation by faith in Jesus Christ alone , they are liars! I don’t have the time or desire to start an in depth debate, but I did want to offer that yes, we believe in God’s sovereignty, but also that His election to save anyone is grace.”

    My comment: God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). The Calvinist view is that God provides faith/repentance through His sovereign act of preordained election. If that were true, then in light of Acts 17:30, God would be commanding Himself to repentance on behalf of all men, and would then break His own command (since not all men will come to repentance). That seems pretty illogical and doesn’t seem to comport with scripture.

    I believe that God is sovereign, but in HIs sovereignty, he has granted man free will to accept or reject salvation. This is the only view of sovereignty that is consistent with God’s other attributes – including justice, holiness, and love. A just, loving God would not create anyone for the express purpose of them spending eternity in hell.

  124. Curtis i have seen that review in the past, even though i have not read the book (looking at his churches website and the what we believe section where they list about 4 works to do for salvation says it all about what kyle idleman believes) The pastor and i do not have a close relationship i have in the past made copies of many free grace writings and have given those to him, not sure if he has ever read a single one he has never replied back saying any thanks for showing me that etc.. .
    i am about 10 years younger than the pastor and actually look like i am 20 about years younger and (not saying that is the reason) but he takes any effort on my part to challenge him, to see if what he is saying is in line with the Bible and basically ignores any statements or observations i have made. i am not a deacon in the church or a big money giver, parents were not big shots in the church etc… i am a quiet person so i believe that plays a part also, and there is also the attitude of what does this fellow know compared to the likes of the great billy grahams, john macarthurs of the world.

  125. Hi Matt D,

    I think part of the problem is that most reformed leaning people have different definitions than us. For example, I don’t view grace as “saving grace” the way a Calvinist would. Grace does not make us believe. Also, sure Christ is the Lord. However, making Jesus Lord of one’s life has nothing to do with salvation. Faith is another word that tends to have tons of meaning added to by Calvinists including: repentance from sins, submitting to Christ as Lord, counting the cost of discipleship, deep heart felt sorrow over sin etc

    Another common issue is that the reformed will say that faith is the gift of God. However we know that salvation is a gift offered freely to us based on Christ’s merit.

    Jim F

  126. I recommend both Hosler’s short review and Jim’s much more comprehensive review.

  127. I stumbled upon this blog and found it very interesting. I would say my theology tends to be reformed, not because I have to take the company line or because I’m a Calvin fanboy, but because of what scripture says. That being said, I struggle with the commenters who draw a line between “lordship” and “grace.” Or “reformed theology” and “grace.” If Calvinist has tried to tell you that we believe in anything other than salvation by faith in Jesus Christ alone , they are liars! I don’t have the time or desire to start an in depth debate, but I did want to offer that yes, we believe in God’s sovereignty, but also that His election to save anyone is grace. I also assure you that despite attending a “reformed” church, we still evangelize with the Good News of Jesus Christ. We don’t play “discover the elect,” we tell everyone about the grace God has offered us. Also, for what it’s worth, I don’t believe (because the Bible doesn’t teach) that your stance on salvation (elect/reprobate vs. free will) does not get you into or keep you out of Heaven, rather, it is faith in Christ alone. Thanks for the great read!

  128. there is a good article nicely laid out on Free Grace Alliance website
    A Review of Not A Fan: Becoming A Completely
    Committed Follower of Jesus – by J. O. Hosler
    Maybe print it out for your Pastor

    [Ed. note: Thanks for that recommendation Curtis. Here’s the link]:

    Click to access Not%20A%20Fan_bookreview_Hosler.pdf

  129. People not keeping verses in context, taking verses out of context to backup their theology.
    I know the pastor at the church in my home town really confuses the salvation message. He will say that salvation is faith alone in Christ and then turn around and have the not a fan book as a favorite book. He uses Romans 10:9 (and other verses) when speaking of salvation and is having the my hope with billy graham program in the church he pastors. He just can not make the connection that these people are teaching a works salvation seems like to me he is like what others have said, just likes to go along with the latest fad in vogue.

  130. Tears of joy really, just to read the follow up statements, it is all a matter of letting Him do the work, we have to believe. It is out of joy and confidence and boldness in who we are in Christ, and knowing we were base, and weak and foolish and not very noble before Christ.

    Free gift… no one believes Free, they look for a caveat, for strings to be attached,, but it is Free.

    People can denigrate free, and try to ask questions, “what if”…. there is only what if, there is only one condemnation, if you do not believe that He is the “I AM”, you will die in your sins….

  131. JohnInnc, thank you for your encouragement. I will speak always if He will give me the strength to do so. Jonathan Cahn cost me much grief, within church friends, one was so angry at me, she said she could not even be around me. This was for revealing some of the trouble with not only his book, the prophecies within the book, the likening to America as a Covenant people but also his use of the Zohar (mystical, foundation of Kabbalah) in his messianic church that he pastors, or rather, he is the ‘rabbi’ of. She also shared many others felt the same way about me. I guess it’s a good thing, it makes you seek Him, seek His Word, what it says, to be firm, and sure of where you stand.

    People would rather cling to their error, and be angry with the messenger. I never forget when Jan Markell told me, “See the movie Holly, it changed my life”…. How terribly sad.

    Anyways, so to see a self proclaimed “Authority on Bible Prophecy” recommend and sell Cahn’s book, just have to speak, whether well-received or not…. the latter is almost always the rule.

  132. Matt for Grace and Truth

    Jane, eternal salvation is either by free gifted grace or earned works. It can’t be both. See Romans 11:6.

  133. Jane, I think we have to understand whether or not salvation is free gift. Either it is or it is earned. What is gospel about in terms of salvation? …Jesus Christ and His work in His death burial and resurrection. We have to know that we are sinners and decide to trust Christ alone based on the gospel for salvation. Eph 2:8-9. Salvation then is given as a gift to us because Christ has already purchased it. Good works in the life of a believer are a result of walking in the Spirit and growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. They do not prove salvation but they do please God and glorify Him to the world around us. Christ proves salvation because it is only He that can be the Savior. He is the standard by which we are judged. Will will have His righeousness or our own.

    I don’t know about others but I prefer to serve God out of love, joy, and peace. I know my eternal home is heaven 100 percent – no doubts. This gives me the joyous freedom – not to sin – but to please God. This is contrary to so many of those Calvinist types that serve God out of duty, fear, or to try to look the part.

    Jim F

  134. I think many lost people don’t know what to believe, because they’ve heard so many mixed messages from their churches. Messages like “we believe in grace, but…”

    That’s why it is essential for believers to separate from apostate groups. A good “litmus test” for whether or not you are in a good church is this: will they let you teach free grace without interference? If not, they just may not believe it!

  135. Ego another motivation of LS (I myself lump all religions into LS because they all try to work their way to God). Ego , the same ego that caused Adam and Eve to make themselves presentable by hiding and covering themselves up . The same Ego or spirit of Cain.
    The tree of Good and Evil surely did a number on us and twisted our view of the Nature of God. Ego hates that it must rely on someone elses perfect finished work Jesus did on the cross for fellowship with God.
    The same ego that when someone buys you dinner you feel obligated to buy them dinner next time.

    Jesus by Himself came to Put away sin , The flesh , Ego has such a hard time with that .

    also something that is finished don’t sell books and keep souls enslaved to come back for more , Sin Sell’s !!!!

    2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
    Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


  136. Holly, it’s interesting you should mention Jonathon Cahn. He did a book signing for “The Harbinger” on July 20, 2013 at the Billy Graham Library in Charlotte. There were a lot of radio ads for this event, and it really dawned on me how adrift the “religion business” is from the Christian faith.

    I encourage you to continue to share your discernment with the body of Christ, no matter what your detractors say.

    1 Peter 4:10: As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

  137. I believe the greatest motivation for believing/preaching a false gospel, is pride. They get to help themselves onto heaven. They get to boast, whereas the true Gospel means that they cannot boast.

  138. Jim, perfect word.

    Trendy… Radical… Hip… Even the word disciples. I do believe we need to teach people, and train them in the Word of God which will thoroughly equip them, but they have all these books and programs…

  139. Eat the meat and spit out the bones “theology”… there is a smugness in this type of thinking… “I’m too spiritually mature to be deceived, aren’t you? Just chew the meat and spit out the bones”….

    Compromise has landed many in these errors, along with overlooking associations. One discussion recently about a “Bible Prophecy Teacher” who everyone loved, led one ‘friend’ to email me about my own motives (I guess she felt she could read them). I was going overboard, eliminating everyone, no one is perfect, I go looking for reasons to reject people, etc. And maybe I should give a list of who they could listen to. Although I provided many verses on associations, marking and avoiding, warning, somehow, it was just my opinion.

    So this person’s justification for it not mattering that he is hosting heretics like Joyce Meyer on their show was that they weren’t taking teaching from him, just listening to the news from Israel…

    The list of his “prominent pastors” was like a who’s who of the charismatic, WOF, and even recommended the mystical “rabbi” Jonathan Cahn’s book, “The Harbinger”.

    Two days ago in a seemingly fairly sound group, when discussing the correct definition of repentance, elicited a response later of ‘being mature’ and lightening up, that I was a Pharisee. I gently explained I was not, as I had come to the Lord that I might have life.

    I think a willingness to look the other way, because someone is charming, or funny or even has some information they want (like world news, or end time events) has introduced plenty of error into the church and people are willing to overlook that people are sharing in their evil deeds.

  140. For me once I got a good dose of Calvinism my self and another person would spend 3-4 hours at a time going over the system of Calvinism and eventually leaving Calvin out of the system and developed our own doctrine by mechanically breaking down scripture into a mind set (strong hold). Yes it landed me in a very dark place the scriptures started to consume me even to the point of denying the divinity of Jesus and to the point of elevating scripture over the person of Christ just like the pharisee’s.
    God stepped in and stopped me before I started spreading my filth anymore than what I did and spent a year battling a suicidal depression afterwards. For me as a former Calvinist and or Lordship salvationist the road out was blocked by the very scripture verses that could set me free.
    Rom_10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
    Ironically / Paradox it was a “repent of sin” revival ministry that God used to set me free. I asked God for revival to begin with me and after hearing speaker say I need to “repent of sin” I took issue and found myself fending off a couple of fundamentalist elders trying to get me saved again. I asked please would you quit calling me a sinner then I would get hit with a 1 John 1:9-10.
    Now as Jesus grants me opportunity I will remind souls who they are In Christ . We are accepted by God because of Christ Jesus finished work on the cross.
    I hope i can spare other souls the pain and vexation i did to my soul. This happened to me 2 years ago starting Aug 2010 and I am only now starting to talk about it. best i can say for now is you best have your mind (attitude) right before you open the Holy Word of Truth. God is not a system. or remember when you hit rock bottom you find Jesus is the rock at the bottom.
    Love opens eyes , Love closes eyes


  141. Thanks Jim F,

    Yes, there are so many more reasons and motives for the LS false messages — your additions are true, to the shame of the LSers.

    The really dangerous one is the idea of “cool” moves to attract the kids. They know kids are their impressionable and “go-with-the-flow” future… Very dangerous.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  142. Thanks Jack and John,

    I can only think of a few other possibilities. Some have been deceived as well as some of the other things mentioned. Also, I have noticed that some put too much stock in a personal experience of “conversion.” The other thing I’ve seen is that there is an appeal to be seen as cutting edge or trendy. Lordship salvation has been re-packaged to be popular and cool especially for the younger generation. There may also be a motive of control for some.

    Jim F