Sympathy for Rick and Kay Warren at Their Son’s Suicide

By Jack Weaver

Rick and Kay Warren’s son, Matthew, committed suicide a week or so ago.

Many of us here have children and, no matter their age or circumstances, we can think of nothing worse than discovering that our child has committed suicide. We have sympathy for the Warrens as they go through their grief and loss. We also know that a parent cannot command the actions of a twenty something son or daughter.

There have been no statements released indicating that their son, Matthew, ever made that critical decision to trust Jesus Christ alone as his Savior, by Grace alone through Faith alone. We see many well meaning Christians speaking of Matthew, that they hope he will RIP (rest in peace). If he ever trusted Jesus Christ alone as his Savior, he will, right now, be resting at peace with his Savior, Jesus. However if he never made that decision to trust Jesus alone as his Savior, he is, like every unbeliever, not resting in peace but experiencing the horrors of Hell. That is Biblical fact! (John 3:18)

However, at this time while our feelings for the Warren family are sincere, we should not allow our sympathy to betray or cloud our Biblical discernment. Absolutely nothing can erase the horrible damage that Rick Warren’s “theology” has done to Biblical Christianity.

We pray that sympathy for the Warren family will not translate into Christians, out of compassion and tenderness, seeking to further investigate, follow and believe his false teachings.

One of Warren’s friends, Beth Moore (a false teacher in her own right), on Warren’s own web site,, used the occasion of Matthews suicide to write a scathing article, critical of any “believers” who would write anything against Warren’s false teaching at this particular time. She called out such Christians as being, relentless, mud slingers, mean, careless, bullies, enemies, hateful, mockers, slanderers, self serving, and snide.

Well, for years we have tried to document some of Rick Warren’s more egregious examples of promoting false doctrine, as well as his efforts to promote ecumenism.  Below are a few examples:

Here is Rick Warren speaking at his World Economic Forum Conference at Georgetown University. He brought in 3 Catholic priests, 3 Imams, 3 “Evangelical” ministers, 3 Rabbis — and asked what can we do about AIDS. He speaks of the Islamic Imams as his “Islamic brothers.”
This video is from the “World Economic Forum” in 2009 with — United Nations gurus Tony Blair (former UK Prime Minister) and Ban Ki Moon. This seems to be an ecumenical run up to the last World Ruling Power and the one world church.
Warren’s Ecumenical Anti-Biblical Video << Click

Quotes from Rick Warren at ExPreacherMan:

His Anti-Biblical remarks about fundamental Christianity:

“Today there really aren’t that many Fundamentalists left; I don’t know if you know that or not, but they are such a minority; there aren’t that many Fundamentalists left in America … Now the word ‘fundamentalist’ actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity.” Quote by Rick Warren, May 2005

He calls Biblical fundamentalism an enemy – compares with Muslim fanatics:

[Fundamentalism is] “one of the big enemies of the 21st century.” “Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism – they’re all motivated by fear. Fear of each other.” Rick Warren, January 2006

As believers in God’s free Grace we should sympathize with  the Warren’s in their grief, just as we would with any other human beings. But please, do not fall for the ecumenical gobbledygook being spread by the religious left that we must “feel” for the Warren’s and consequently embrace Rick’s foul teaching.

Eternal Life for You FREE << Click

62 responses to “Sympathy for Rick and Kay Warren at Their Son’s Suicide

  1. Abe – I didn’t even catch that, good observation. I sort of assumed it was a women’s event, but if you search for “eucharist” on their site, that is where I found that. I’ll see what I can find.

  2. “Kay Warren … will be teaching a four-week series called ALL ACCESS in weekend services”

    Is Kay considered a pastor now by their church?

  3. Holly,

    Thanks for that extensive analysis of Saddleback Church website content.. Terrible stuff. Warren must be avoided.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  4. Abe – I have to shake my head at Rick Warren’s blatant stance against the truth, but people will still deny and defend, and then go on the attack.

    Peter Drucker and Robert Schuller he considers mentors, Peter Drucker was contemplative and considered Kierkegaard a “prophet” and interestingly one who emphasized man’s “purpose” on earth. A professing Episcopalian, Drucker wrote about the necessity to create a “metaphysical science” for the coming “new age”– “The new view of the world, the new concepts, the new human capacities” (1996 Introduction, p. xvi-see, he even believed original sin could be “overcome”.

    Search Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church site for these things, and you will not find them:

    • Rapture
    • Great Tribulation
    • Second Coming
    • Gospel (not really easily found)
    • Salvation plan (not really easily found – on their “about”, they have the Bible verses under Salvation plan. That was all I could find.)

    Search Saddleback for these things and you WILL find them:

    • Yoga
    • Meditation
    • Breath prayers
    • Dallas Willard-“The Spirit of the Disciplines” and “Renovation of the Heart” among others, they are on the recommended reading list.
    • Brennan Manning
    • Richard Foster
    • Brother Lawrence-practicing the Presence
    • Spiritual Formation
    • Robert Schuller
    • Richard Foster “Celebration of Discipline” (staff pick)
    • The Mess-Age ‘bible’ (new age and occult language throughout)
    • Gordon MacDonald
    • Erwin Raphael McManus-The Barbarian Way/Mosaic Church
    • Lectio divina & Eugene Peterson’s book-“Eat this Book”-Peterson suggests an alternative approach, offering fascinating insights on the nature of language, the ancient practice of lectio divina, and the role of translations, including The Message.
    • Henri Nouwen – “Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God. (Sabbatical Journey, p. 51)”
    • Ken Blanchard – new age guru
    • Searched Eucharist- Now this was interesting… just came to me to search, all sorts of returns, of course as “communion” and I saw this at Lake Forest with Kay Warren … will be teaching a four-week series called ALL ACCESS in weekend services…will share life-changing truths about the Tabernacle and we’ll learn what it means to live in God’s presence today. Every week you can take each weekend’s teaching deeper in your small group by using Talk It Over, the weekly downloadable discussion study guide produced from the weekend message. A special part of this new series is the All Access Experience, a full-scale replica of the Tabernacle in the wilderness that will be erected on the Lake Forest campus. You and your group can participate in a multi-sensory experience of communion with God by taking a 55-minute audio driven journey through the Tabernacle, participating at each of 9 interactive stations.

  5. Fortunately, we know that it is God’s will that all would be saved and that none would perish. But, God permits man’s destiny to depend upon man’s choice.

    We know that one of the men crucified beside Christ accepted Him. We also know that many peaceful, religious, law abiding citizens have not.

  6. “Rick Warren calls them narrow and legalistic? Hmmmm… Am I missing something?”

    You’re not missing anything. Warren is a universalist in non-universalist’s clothing. That’s even why in his “P.E.A.C.E.” plan, he later changed the “P” so that it was not “planting churches” but became “partnering with peace partners”, which means partnering up with people of any belief system.

    Recently there was a book written called “Catholics Come Home”, written by a man named Tom Peterson, and Rick Warren wrote an endorsement of the book which is included in the book itself, where Warren basically said that he “fully supports this new evangelization project”, among Warren saying other things positive about the message of drawing people to catholicism.

  7. So I looked up the Five Fundamentals of the faith, and got two lists. The first one is from Wikipedia.
    Then over to another place which was written by the EAEC, had a slightly different order, and Christ Deity and Christ’s miracles switched, so don’t know if it was the same list or year, but Rick Warren calls them narrow and legalistic? Hmmmm… Am I missing something?

    1. Inspiration of the Bible and the inerrancy of scripture as a result of this
    2. Virgin birth of Christ
    3. Belief that Christ’s death was the atonement for sin
    4. Bodily resurrection of Christ
    5. Historical reality of Christ’s miracles

    1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1; John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9).
    2. The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27).
    3. The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Romans 3:25, 5:9; Ephesians 1:7;
    Hebrews 9:12-14).
    4. The Bodily Resurrection (Luke 24:36-46; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 15:14-15).
    5. The inerrancy of the scriptures themselves (Psalms 12:6-7; Romans 15:4;
    2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20). 1

  8. We do have a lot going on here, but all over the world, sin and evil is pervasive, I really see the love of many waxing cold. This world is not my home… It’s hard being a mom with kids who are at age, starting their lives, my first child getting married in September, if the Lord is willing. It is surreal as I look around me, and more and more the things of this world are so distasteful and I am certainly looking for the day we go to be with Him.

    But until then, I pray for opportunities to tell others the good news, to save lives, (and like Jack said repeating Phil 1:27), to stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel.

    It is very sad that people are filled with such hate, and rage and wickedness, but like John says, none of us are worthy of His grace, and so if He is willing, maybe one will come to Him, who knows what the Lord will work here.

  9. Sue, thanks for your comforting words.

    The Boston attack has brought out such a range of emotions. I know that God loves the grieving loved ones of the victims, the injured, and the rest of us more than we can possibly comprehend.

    Like Jack said, I hope that many lost people will be convicted of their need for a Savior and will trust in Jesus Christ alone.

    I am also hopeful that as believers, we will remember that we are no more worthy of Grace than the perpetrator(s) of this crime.

  10. Thank you Sue for your kind words of encouragement. That means a great deal to me and to all of us at, I’m sure.

    I was reminded this past week through the Boston tragedy of how precious is life and even more precious is knowing the Lord Jesus. A close friend of my brother’s was running in the marathon and, from what I understand, was only possibly twenty minutes away from the area and time of the incident.

  11. Thanks Sue,

    Thanks, we appreciate you and your expression of sympathies for the people in our poor old decaying Republic. We have lost our Way, our Foundation, God.

    Our prayer is that these tragedies will:

    1) Encourage Grace believers to, even more, share salvation in Jesus Christ alone, the only answer to such tragedies.
    2) That unbelievers will see the reality of evil; and the evil one, Satan. That these terrible events will drive many unbelievers to wonder about death, eternity, Heaven and Hell.. and seek the only solution, Jesus Christ.
    3) That we will all be found faithful.. and “… stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;” Philippians 1:27c

    I love that verse!!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  12. Expected Imminently

    Hello Jack, Shirley, Bruce and all the ExP fellowship
    Please allow me to express my deepest sympathy to our U.S.A. family in Jesus. I am thinking of you and all those affected by the dreadful events in Texas and Boston over the past few days. Try to remember that the enemy means this for ill, but God is greater. ALL things, even these events, He will work for good because He cannot lie and remains faithful.
    God bless and comfort you all with His peace that passes all understanding.

  13. Holly, Abe and Sue,

    Thanks for your kind statements and the truth about the Warrens. The Truth about his errors does not diminish our concern for the family at this time of tragedy. We cannot sacrifice Truth when stirred by emotion. We do pray this incident will bring the Warrens to true understanding and consequently a continual proclamation of God’s salvation by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ alone.

    And Sue, your note; Thanks — well thought out and written. Obviously the truth hurts those who do not believe it. And the lies of Rick Warren have obviously devastated your family and life.

    We continue to pray for you and all of our wonderful friends here at ExP..

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  14. Amen and Amen Sue and Abe! I feel you both. My heart breaks each time I see complacency or compromise of anyone regarding false doctrine, because of the cost of eternal life for so many…

    When the Son of man comes, will He find faith on this earth?….

    I know we are to love our enemies, and so I pray that Rick Warren will come to know the One, True, Living God, the only One who can save us from the wages of our sin…eternal punishment, and give us the free gift of eternal life.

  15. “Rick Warren’s false teaching has ripped three sons and their families out of my life both directly and indirectly as I warned of the lies being told, and the pain has been bearable only by God’s Grace. Rick Warren shows no mercy to me, or others equally grieved by loss of family and close friends to his replacement Christianity.”

    And not to mention the countless churches that have been ripped apart and people thrown out of them, for merely questioning Rick Warren’s PDL nonsense. Where is Rick’s mercy in his crusade to make all churches in his own likeness?

  16. Expected Imminently

    Deborah asks ‘Where is our mercy’?

    It is in the genuine expression of ‘there by the Grace of God go I’. Rick Warren is a father who has raised a child to maturity through (no doubt) many trials and tribulations. Then the child who is suffering emotional pain, decides it would be better dead. No thoughts surfaced in compassion for his father, his illness swept everything loving aside as his pain became an all encompassing entity. May God have mercy on that man for the terrible feelings of inadequacy and helplessness being unable to reach out and keep his boy safe. My heart felt that pain!

    Rick Warren’s false teaching has ripped three sons and their families out of my life both directly and indirectly as I warned of the lies being told, and the pain has been bearable only by God’s Grace. Rick Warren shows no mercy to me, or others equally grieved by loss of family and close friends to his replacement Christianity. If he had but an ounce of compassion he would cease his worldly teachings, embrace Christ’s WRITTEN Word and share that in abundance instead of the bitter, sugar coated pills he is putting down peoples throats.

    He has chosen to make friends with the world, and friendship with the world is enmity with God. He is the worst traitor of all, he who disregards and denies the only sustenance that is necessary to the world; which is to teach The Word in and out of season. 2Timothy4:2
    IF Rick Warren truly loved God, he would ensure the world and his parishioners a bountiful feast of doctrine. If out of pity for his sad loss, others are urged to embrace his lies, then they need others, by God’s Grace, to warn that there is poison in the cup they are about to sip from

    James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

    The sword of the Spirit is THE WORD OF GOD; that cuts and divides to the marrow and brings death to self and life in Christ. The Purpose Driven whatever; has no ability to bring Salvation and no strength to quicken and uphold the saints. Rick Warren’s teachings will all burn to ash and the smoke of it will sting his eyes.

    Please God that by His Grace, Rick and his son will stand at Christ’s Bema of 1Cor3:8-15 and not at the Great White Throne in Revelation 20:11-15 like so many of his followers who embrace his false gospel.

    THAT- is mercy Deborah, and also grace that is not deserved for Warrens world-wide deception.
    Thank you for your comment that has given me opportunity to speak out against Warrens iniquitous teaching that is still hurting me in MY grief.

    Dear Jack and Bruce; I am usually deleted for being too forthright, so I will understand if you judge this the same.


  17. Deborah, I can only say that some of us here have experienced tragedy and loss, probably many, and so, even and most especially because of it (speaking for myself), my heart breaks for their loss, and because of that, I believe my eyes have been opened even past the temporal, as I have wept for a long time as I see men who believe a way is right, but that way leads to death, and they lead others in the same path.

    My empathy lies with both those who suffered a loss in their family and most especially those who may suffer a loss for eternity hearing a different gospel.

    If that makes me mean in someone’s eyes, I can only tell them I do not feel mean, my heart just suffers for those who aren’t hearing the truth that will bring them to a saving knowledge of our Lord and Savior. God bless you to know what we are speaking of.

  18. Thanks Sue and Holly for your kind words of welcome to Deborah. I trust that she will come back again soon and often to the Free Grace haven, a.k.a,

  19. Deborah,

    Thanks for commenting again.. I believe I showed great mercy (as much as fallible humans can) to the Warren family.

    But our concern is that Warren sympathizers have exploited Matthew’s horrible suicide to further Rick Warren’s damaging programs.

    If you disagree, that is certainly your prerogative. I am curious; are you a follower or fan of Rick Warren and/or Beth Moore and do you appreciate their teachings? Do you seriously believe that the Islamic Imam or the Roman Catholic priests are your “brothers” as does Rick Warren?

    Warren is teaching an un-Biblical message contrary to the Gospel of God’s Grace. There is a scriptural principle that applies here:

    Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 2 Cor. 6:17

    [A]nd be ye separate, saith the Lord,” That is The Lord’s proclamation, not ours! We pray you can see, understand and believe that simple principle.

    See our article on Eternal Life For You” at:

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  20. Deborah Felts

    I have to agree with Beth Moore. If, at such a painful and tragic time, you can’t just have sympathy and pray for a brother without outlining your disagreement with him (again), then that is mean. I’m sure everyone knows where you stand. It did not need to be repeated at a time like this. Where is your mercy?

  21. The enemy always tries to keep us distracted with things like this so we might think something is what it is not. No one here is mean, on the contrary, it is so much harder to speak the truth in love than many might imagine. Easier to act lovey dovey and stay quieter, at least in the respect of how people perceive you, but I think most everyone here is about His truth, and not compromising, knowing God desires none should perish, and so we also too have a heart for the lost.

    And only the TRUTH can set them free… So, real love, speaks the truth.

    Give them another chance, even in disagreement, they’ll reason with Scriptures with you.

  22. Expected Imminently

    Hello Deborah
    Machines are so fickle! I was happy to be asked, very recently, to change my name because Jack and Bruce kept finding my comments in the trash. It is not intentional, I assure you, just mad, man made creations with blips and nasty habits. Please try again , there is nothing mean or fickle in these beloved folk. If a comment was unfair in some way, then they would block it to keep the peace; otherwise they are always welcoming, and so kind to me, also a newbie.
    Cmon Deborah; be patient with ExP and try, try, try again.
    Sue 🙂

  23. Deborah,

    Welcome — I am amazed and sorry, but this comment from you is the first we have seen — and we have no idea about which “comment was not posted” you mean.

    Incidentally, we never intend to be mean — because we speak Biblical truth —

    Of course if you choose to be abusive and irrational we may choose to block you — But as long as you carry on a civil Biblical discussion, there will be plenty of folks who will discuss Biblical principles with you. Please read the Comment Rules at the top Header of this page. Thank you.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack (Admin)

  24. Deborah Felts

    It doesn’t surprise me at all to find my comment was not posted. I’ll say it again, you’re mean. You’re just plain MEAN.

  25. Blocked, eh? Consider it a favor. It amazes me how often that verse applies today. 😦

  26. Beth Moore reminds me of those who incite a riot with absolute lies and a certain malintent.

    Just tell a crowd the lions got loose and start running, they’ll run. Tell the world that everyone is bullying this family even when they are not, and everyone becomes hypersensitive and churchitically correct.

    I firmly believe it is a tactical offensive move to protect this “ministry” from marking and avoiding. How long? How long until the next celebrity “minister” comes out and condemns the church with a broad brush stroke for things not being said.

    Beth Moore bore false witness. Everywhere I saw a mention, it was requests for prayer. My own request for prayer for him on my FB page, asking if the Lord was willing, for this to draw them near to Him, sent one person into assuming what I meant. Another “Bible study teacher” from a Baptist church used some similar methods, stating people said things they never did, and never once addressed anyone rebuking him for being at the least, incorrect. He continued in his tizzy until I told him goodbye and I was blocked.

    When I heard her, I thought the same things as Pearl. I hadn’t seen any of the behavior mentioned by Beth, and this was designed I believe to keep anyone from speaking out against his false teaching anytime in the far future probably.

    Beth Moore should not be teaching anyone, she does not teach in context, adds all sorts of “girlfriend” into her conversation, feigned spirituality (throwing herself down on her porch to pray for hours with her dog wondering why, and being sure to let others know over her super-spiritual condition in her books). I do not know her motives, not my job, but I was asked to attend one of her last teachings so that I could help critique what the other woman wanted to go to her own church about regarding the errors.

    Not only did Beth Moore quote from the new age and occult-like “bible” called the MessAge, she also incorrectly used Scripture in her teaching and had people “speaking words” over each other at the end, as well as leading people into “prayer” having everyone repeat after her (outloud), a “salvation prayer”.

    It’s very sad, but I think of this passage when I ponder these people:

    Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
    For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
    Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    2 Tim 3:5-7

  27. I like to thank you for your comments that have clearly cemented in me what I knew all along: that Christ gives eternal life to the believer. After being “born again”, I was educated in a Pentecostal denomination that did not / and does not believe in the eternal security of the believer and certainly would not hold to your view that suicide does not stop one from going to heaven. In fact, I remember, an instance of two believers dying in the same week; one from a heart attack and one by suicide. The first was commended to eternal life with Jesus and the other..well, I don’t have to tell you.
    Over the years, I have listened to and read/studied a lot. I can recall a good friend and teacher saying: “John, the only way to get to heaven is a life of perfect obedience to the law and will of God. And that LIFE was Jesus Christ. FAITH in Jesus and what He did is the doorway to heaven.”
    They were wise words.
    I like your site and I like reading what you say.
    Thank you
    J T

  28. JT, it is not compatible to think that Jesus paid it all, but to think that suicide would automatically send someone to hell.

    If someone believes that suicide automatically sends someone to hell, there is a good chance that he has never understood God’s plan of salvation. We should look for this as an evangelism opportunity.

  29. Hello again JT,

    Thanks for joining the other folks in sending kind words of condolence to the Warren family. Regarding your statement/question about suicide, no, suicide would not consign a person to hell. Only a lifetime of rejecting God’s gracious free offer of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, right up to and through the point of death, would cause a person to end up in hell. The problematic teaching that you mention does not originate from Christian fundamentalists, as you say, or from the Bible either; it is an unbiblical fallacious teaching. My understanding is that it stems from Roman Catholicism which makes an unbiblical artificial distinction between “venial” sins (supposed “lesser” sins) and “mortal” sins (the really bad, maybe unforgiveable sins). Again, all of this is made-up theology and not found in the Bible.

  30. Good morning all. I too join the condolences sent to the Warrens re the loss of their son. Our children are supposed to outlive us. I remember many, many years ago the suicide of a young man and the devastation it caused to the family. My only problem is that many fundamentalists would state that even if one had accepted Christ as his/her Saviour, suicide would automatically send a person to hell. Of course, we humans look at the outside, but God looks at the heart.
    Any further opinions would be helpful
    In Christ
    John T.

  31. Excellent points, Paul.

    Thanks for joining us today.

  32. Thank you bro. Jack for your kind words. Jody was by my side when I showed it to her and it made her smile!

  33. Thanks Sue,

    Great analogy of Warren as Game Meister in his self perceived authority to “change the rules.”

    Its not a game. And it is a shame. The eternal souls of the lost are at stake and the blessed fellowship believers seek with the Savior is jeopardized by Warren’s teaching. He is fair game as he strays from the doctrines and principles of the Biblical Gospel.

    And thanks to John G, (good advice for all of us):

    The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise. Proverbs 11:30

    In Jesus eternally, Jack

  34. Expected Imminently

    I have just followed Jacks lead and read Warren’s blog.

    If Beth Moore felt angry at those of us who defy the twisted theories of the apostate church she succumbs to, then I am equally indignant at her arrogant bludgeoning of genuine believers who endeavour to abide by God’s Word led by The Holy Spirit!

    I have made this comparison before on the Lamb and Lion blog site concerning Rick Warren. I meant it then, and I mean it all the more now at being labelled ‘spiritual cannibals’ then, and now ‘bullies’ for obeying Christ’s command to ‘contend earnestly for THE faith’. Jude 1:3,4

    Not for ‘our’ faith, as she bleakly puts it, but belief in THE Faith which is The Lords FREE GRACE GOSPEL and NO works. THAT is THE FAITH Christ wondered would be missing at His return, AFTER the removal of the Church who are kept eternally secure.

    If Christianity was a ball game, then Beth Moore is complaining that Believers in The Lord’s Free Grace, by faith alone through Christ alone, are refusing to play by Rick Warren’s self induced rules of a social gospel.

    While paying lip service to The Word of God, Warren and his followers have swept aside the God given commands and redesigned the field of play to fit their heretical opinions, while those she calls ‘bullies’, are continuing to play as originally directed.

    Rick Warren has fundamentally moved the goal posts causing confusion among the players who are forced to play opposing positions against his purpose driven rule book.

    Positively tamping

  35. On Jesus’ own baptism, he came up out of the water, so standing on the shore for sprinkling doesn’t work. Symbolic death occurs when a body that can’t breath underwater goes under the water. Just a couple of thoughts as I read through. This is interesting stuff, thanks for including me. Then whenever I look into something in the Bible about something I saw here, inevitably I see other things, like “Behold the Lamb of God . . .” John the baptizer knew who Jesus was and what he was going to do. The Holy Spirit descended as a dove upon Jesus’ shoulder. John needed re-confirmation though, like from when he was in jail before being decapitated.

  36. Expected Imminently

    Dear Jack

    Your kind encouragement where I get things right is greatly beneficial to me on many levels! Equally valuable is when you gently approach those things I need to correct.

    That is also true of Bruce, Pearl, John, Fred who tell us like it is without any ‘put downs’; not only me, but others who come limping into this little haven for the bruised and battered from so many deceptions such as LS.

    There are too many women caught up in the Beth Moore tripe! Praise The Lord that by His Holy Spirit He alerted me from the base that she is a woman attempting to teach God’s word.

    I am exceedingly wary of women teachers, although I appreciate we are able to teach women and children in the Church, point out Biblical errors to the brothers, and to witness the Gospel to UN-saved men in the world.

    That’s not legalism; it is respecting and obeying God’s given command on the subject. 1Timothy2:11-15.

    When I eventually read a smidgeon of Beth Moore’s rubbish, I was already well and truly alerted and wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot barge pole. 😐

    Any visiting ladies (and men) please take careful note if you mean business with The Lord and depart in haste from Beth Moore’s emotional claptrap.


  37. Thanks Pearl,

    You’re not thoughtless at all — you were sticking to the subject at hand and you handled it well. Thanks.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  38. Sue,

    You said, (among other great things), “That comment [Beth Moore’s] reads to me as an open admission by Mz Moore that Warren does indeed teach falsely, but don’t speak about it just now!”

    You are right but I fear Beth Moore would not recognize free Grace Gospel teaching if it hit her upside the head. False teaching surrounds her; she wallows in, propagates it and it seems as natural to her as the air she breathes.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  39. Bruce,

    Thanks to you and everyone else for the anniversary wishes. We are happy together in Jesus. Not sure how she puts up with me — but she is very patient. 😎

    In Jesus eternally, Jack

  40. Welcome July!

    Acts 10:47 is a good verse for refuting the requirement of water baptism for salvation:

    “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”

    Note that these people have received the Holy Ghost – therefore, they are saved. Note that they have not yet been baptized.

    If you would like to read extensively on this subject, there is a book by J.O. Hosler entitled “The Baptismal Regeneration / Believer’s Baptism Debate”.

    Please find link to chapter 9, below:

    Click to access chap9.pdf

  41. Thanks Bruce,

    For going into more detail with good illustrations on baptism for July. Your comment will surely be reassuring for her.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  42. Welcome July; nice to have you join us today.

    Regarding the term “baptize,” I’ll give you a few things that I’ve gleaned over the years.
    First, regarding the term from the Greek. “Baptize” comes from the Greek “baptizo” (pronounced bap-tid-zo). It’s root is the term “bapto.” The early use of the word had to do with the dyeing of various materials. Later, the terms were also used in regard to the dipping of vegetables for cleansing and preservation. Both terms clearly speak of a dipping (not a dripping) process. So the idea of baptism by immersion is much more fitting and consistent with the original intent of the Greek than that of sprinkling. Besides, since baptismal immersion symbolizes a burial of the old life of sin as the coming up out of the water symbolizes the receiving of a new life through faith in Christ alone, immersion is definitely the biblical and logical way to go. Think, for a moment, that you were at a funeral and a coffin was put down into the ground. Then after the service the cemetery caretakers simply threw a few sprinkles of dirt into the grave and then left. Is that what they would do? No, they would bury the coffin!

    Regarding the issue of the proper mode of baptism, think for a moment about how John the Baptist and later some of Jesus’ disciples would have baptized people in the Jordan River. Years ago, there was a made-for-TV movie about Jesus of Nazareth. When the movie came to the part in which Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, the two stood on the shoreline; John reached down, cupped his hand, and then sprinkled a bit of water on top of Jesus’ head. I thought at the time, how foolish is that! They’re in a RIVER!; the only logical thing that could have been done is that John immersed Jesus completely under the waters of the Jordan River.

    As you may see from my comments above, I believe that baptism is merely a symbolic act with NO salvific properties whatsoever. In addition to its representation of the burial of the old life of sin, as mentioned above, water baptism demonstrates a identification with Christ Jesus as one’s Savior, and it makes that declaration in a public setting. Can I demonstrate from the Bible that a person can be saved apart from water baptism? Certainly! First, one can read numerous salvation texts that make no mention of water baptism whatsoever (some examples): John 3:16; Acts 16:30-31; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; Romans 4:5. How about an example from the Bible of someone who was clearly saved before being water baptized? Sure, look at Acts 10:30-48. The text details how Cornelius and his family became the first or very early Gentile converts. Clearly they were saved, demonstrated by the pouring out of the gift of the Holy Spirit upon them, and then Peter offered to baptize them since they had already received the Holy Spirit.

    What about Acts 2:38? It reads, “Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” The key term here is “for,” “eis” in Greek which can be translated, “on the basis of,” “with a view to,” or “as a result of.” Think of a modern example: When you take an aspirin “for” a headache is it because you desire to GET a headache? Obviously not! You take an aspirin “for” a headache because you already have a headache, or in other words, you take it as a RESULT of already having a headache. Similarly, when one is baptized “for the remission of sins,” it is a demonstration that the remission of sins (salvation through faith in Christ alone) has already occurred!

    I hope that I didn’t ramble too much.

  43. Hi July,

    Yes, I remember that pretty young teenager named “July” from our Palmetto Christian Youth Ranch meetings at Palmetto Bible Church. So happy you joined us. Do you recall whether your youth leader was Bill Adams or Tom Cucuzza? That was probably around the late 70s or early 80s. Tom comments and writes here regularly.

    Water Baptism for salvation?? You prompt a sermon — but I will make it short. Maybe others here will further elaborate. You likely have been attending a Church of Christ — since that false doctrine is in their general Statements of Faith. Of course some Baptists confuse the issue also.

    You say you do not believe that water baptism is a part of the requirements for salvation. Go with what you believe and what I taught you. If we think about it, the thief on the cross next to Jesus believed in Christ and was not water baptized but Christ told him “Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise..” Luke 23:43

    In 1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul, one of the greatest soulwinners ever to share God’s Word — water baptized only very few folks and he made this statement:

    For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

    Would we not assume that if water baptism were required for salvation, Paul would have made it a point to water baptize everyone he led to Christ? Of course he would.

    We also remember that the word “baptize” is Greek, baptizo, meaning to whelm or wash fully clean.

    In Acts 2:38 we read:

    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,..

    Repent = Change your mind about Jesus Christ whom they had just crucified.
    Baptized = fully cleansed.

    And HOW were they to be cleansed? The scripture says, In the Name of Jesus (Jehovah Savior) See Acts 4:12 which emphasizes that:

    Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    But July, we must continually remind ourselves that works of any kind cannot aid our salvation, neither water baptism, baking pies for church or walking old ladies across the street. NO Works!!

    “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us..” Titus 3:5

    You can “take that to the bank” so to speak. Not by any works of righteousness.

    God’s salvation is ONLY by Grace alone through Faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

    I pray this helps. Thanks for stopping in, July, please ask as many questions you wish. We have lots of folks here much smarter Biblically and linguistically than I. Please read the header to the web site. There are many articles that will encourage you in your faith.

    I relayed your best to Shirley – Thanks. Please ask all of your former Youth Ranch friends to stop in. We would love to “see” them again.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  44. I second everyone’s happy anniversary wishes to Jack and Shirley, a wonderful couple who love the Lord dearly!

    All the best to you!

  45. Ah! How thoughtless of me! I got caught up in Abe and Pat’s comments, that I overlooked your and Shirley’s anniversary! I hope you two are having an extra special day together.

  46. Jack,

    Thanks, friend, for the article. I appreciate the sympathetic loving words that people have expressed toward the Warren family. And it is not unloving to point out doctrinal error as well, which is a separate issue from the tragedy at hand. And I agree with Pearl and others that Beth Moore’s comments on another site were misplaced and offensive to all.

  47. Expected Imminently

    Many congratulations Jack and Shirley. God bless you both in abundance!
    Sue 🙂

  48. Expected Imminently

    Beth Moore “…critical of any “believers” who would write anything against Warren’s false teaching at this particular time…”

    Is that a ‘Freudian slip’ by Moore.? That comment reads to me as an open admission by Mz Moore that Warren does indeed teach falsely, but don’t speak about it just now!

    I am genuinely sympathetic to the Warrens for the loss of their child!
    However, what I have attempted to write, I have deleted as I remember all the souls Rick Warren’s teachings is leading into the hands of the enemy. He is directly responsible for great harm in my life … so least said is soonest mended!


  49. Happy Anniversary Jack!! Please give my best to your wife too. I always enjoy reading what you post. You have mentored me since I was a teenager many years ago. I have always believed that salvation is by faith alone.. not works.. I would love if you would make clear, again, to me where baptism by water (immersion) is part of the plan of salvation. I truly don’t believe it is, however the churches I have been involved with teach that the bible clearly states we have to believe and be baptized to be saved. Would you please share your wisdom with me?

    Your friend in Christ,

  50. Bro David,

    Thanks — and especially, I appreciate your encouragement, your virtual friendship and fellowship for these many years. Give our love to Jody.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  51. Happy Anniversary bro. Jack and Mrs. Shirley!! Very well-said bro. Jack. The greatest Love ever is that from our Savior, and the reason He did as we all know is because we are sinners in desperate need of the salvation He died to provide. Thank you for being instant in and out of season with the genuine Gospel. God Bless you.

  52. Perfect perspective, Abe and wise words, Pat. So very, very true…

  53. Pat,

    Yep, the Beth Moore “touchy-feely” teaching appeals to many — but it sorta breaks down somewhat with her recent accusations against Christians.

    Pat, thanks. I constantly pray that my writing and the message of Grace is clear. I am blessed to have my dear wife Shirley (anniversary today 😎 ) to advise and proof-read. She is a walking, talking Bible dictionary and any errors I make are because I publish before getting her advice. Likewise, I solicit and receive input from our dear friends here at ExP, Bruce, Pearl, John and his wife. And again, all errors are mine — not theirs!!

    Our readers are very encouraging!!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  54. Abe,

    Excellent thoughts.

    The daily headline, “150,000 Died Toady” every day, and in spite of that, we see so many false teachers spreading lies of a heavenly way to go to hell – works – works – works instead of God’s amazing salvation by Grace!

    Likewise, so many sincere Christians pick up Beth Moore books and then their churches perpetuate her error with “Ladies Bible Studies” of those books. I am aware of several. Shameful.

    In light of all that, we must remember Proverbs 11:30:

    The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

    Let us all strive to be scripturally wise!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  55. Very well said, Jack. Sympathy on the human level of course to Warren and his family. It is a tragedy and it deserves a moment of reflection.

    So does the concept of death itself. Now we know that about 150,000 people die every day around the world. That is every day. Imagine a headline at the top of the morning news that read, “150,000 dead”. Yet that is the truth of every single day. Thus, due to the nature of death, we are to examine those who claim to present the Gospel. We are still to examine Warren’s teachings, at all times (James 3:1), even in times of personal tragedy. Warren has unfortunately been used much by the enemy to pull people off the narrow way that is by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Thus, to what degree is he responsible for putting certain of those 150,000 a day on the wrong path?

    Beth Moore wouldn’t answer such a question, because, she is occupied selling books. I’m sorry to sound brash, but she is a false teacher indeed.

  56. Great article, Grandpa Jack 😀

    Beth Moore’s adjectives there are completely judgmental and unnecessary. Pointing out false teaching must be done in every season, and must not be forfeited for the sake of personal tragedy. While Beth Moore’s intention might have been one of “if you care about and love Rick Warren, you wouldn’t be doing this right now…”, it is compromising and lacking. The Bible clearly indicates in many passages that love and truth are inseparable and must go together. One without the other is incomplete. If anything, this is the ideal time to expose Rick Warren’s false doctrines, but definitely should be done so in much love and compassion.

    My condolences to Rick Warren and his family, and I hope, for his own good, that he may know the truth that will set him free.

    Jack, the way you write is so clear and authoritative. It is quite fun to read. How do you do it?


  57. Pearl,

    Thanks for those excellent Bible based thoughts. Very appropriate!!

    And as for Beth Moore and her ilk… well — she continues her attempt to defame Biblical Christianity.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  58. What a needlessly insulting, provoking thing for Beth Moore to say. Of the few discernment sites I’ve visited since Warren’s son’s heartbreaking suicide, none of them came out with a single shot against Warren. My heart ached for them when I heard the news; surely no one would wish such a thing against their worst enemy.

    I don’t know the protocol for this sort of thing, and though the Warrens may be down and out for a time, their agenda marches on. “We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principallities…”

    To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
    A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
    A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
    A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
    A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
    A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
    A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
    A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.


  59. Paul,

    Thanks and Welcome back.

    You are right on target.. That statement may be one of the few times Warren has spoken the truth:

    Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:14

    Salvation by faith in Jesus Christ alone IS narrow! Great observation.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  60. “. . . a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity” that part of the quote of Rick Warren from 2005 brought a scripture to mind: Matthew 7:14, where Jesus, himself agrees with what Warren describes as the fundamentalist view of Christianity.

  61. John,

    Thanks — so much “theological” misunderstanding.. and so many opportunities to “set the record straight” from a Biblical free Grace perspective.

    I appreciate your help and advice as we are all “striving together for the faith of the Gospel” (Philippians 1:27c)

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  62. Jack, great article!

    I was so sad to hear of Matthew Warren’s suicide. I prayed for Rick Warren and his wife in their loss.

    Like you said, we must not allow sympathy for Rick Warren, belittlement by Beth Moore, or anything else, to interfere with our Biblical discernment.

    Matthew’s suicide may provide an opening for witnessing to religious unbelievers. There is a common misconception – among both Roman Catholics and many protestant religions – that the sin of suicide cannot be forgiven. If we encounter people who hold this non-Biblical belief, we may have an opportunity to tell them the good news of the Gospel.