Lordship Salvation: Where I Come From

by johninnc

Following is the refrain from the song “Where I Come From” by country music star Alan Jackson:

Where I come from it’s cornbread and chicken

Where I come from a lotta front porch pickin’

Where I come from tryin’ to make a livin’

And workin’ hard to get to Heaven, where I come from

I heard this song today for the first time, and it reminded me of where I come from.

I was raised in the southeastern US, and North Carolina is where I currently live. I like fried chicken (sorry PETA) and cornbread. I feel most at home when I’m here. And, I used to think I had to work to get to heaven.

Let me take a moment to explain what I mean.

I am a 53 year-old man that didn’t become a believer in Christ until age 49. As far back as I can remember, I believed that Christ was the Son of God, that He died for our sins, and was raised from the dead.

But, I thought that in addition to believing in Jesus for eternal life, I had to internally resolve to turn from my sins and commit my life to Christ in order to get to heaven. I had fallen for the false gospel of Lordship “salvation.”

Until just a few years ago, it had never dawned on me that faith in Christ and faith in Christ plus me were mutually exclusive. Resolving to turn from sins and committing one’s life to Christ are works. We cannot be saved by our works.

Romans 3:20: Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Most churches, evangelists, and print ministries teach Lordship “salvation” either explicitly, or implicitly. It is appealing to us, because it fits into our preexisting belief that we can somehow work our way back to God.

Following are excerpts from our page entitled Lordship “salvation” Defined:

At its core, Lordship “salvation” (LS) is not salvation at all but man made PROBATION – a disbelief in God’s Word which clearly states that salvation is by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

LS is the unsupportable belief that the PERFORMANCE of good works, the PROMISE of good works, or the EVIDENCE of good works MUST accompany faith in Christ in order to establish, or provide evidence, that such faith has resulted in eternal life.

LS can be overt (one must forsake all of his sins and follow Christ in obedience and discipleship in order to be saved) or VERY SUBTLE (one’s behavior will change once he is saved).  But, do not be deceived. Trying to add ANY human merit to Grace makes it no longer Grace. (Romans 11:6).

Anyone who is a Christian has repented (changed his mind) from some false belief  to belief in Christ alone as Savior. For me, I had to repent (change my mind) from thinking that my good intentions had any bearing whatsoever on whether or not I was going to go to heaven.

We receive eternal life when we stop working for it, and believe in the person and work of Jesus Christ alone.

Romans 4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

LS is where I come from. Belief in Christ is where I am now. God never gave up trying to draw me to him.

If you are workin’ hard to get to Heaven and would like to know how to have eternal life, click here: The Gospel

God has not given up on you either. How do I know? I know, because you are reading this post.



153 responses to “Lordship Salvation: Where I Come From

  1. Thank you Don for your testimony and taking the time to post.

  2. Wow,
    Don how encouraging to have someone on board who has seen through the lies and deception of Lordship Salvation, Here in Australia we are constantly battling this false gospel, its bigger than Ben Hur.

    Once again welcome, we would encourage you to stay a little while here on the oasis of grace and refresh yourself and soak yourself in the truth. We have been so brainwashed in the churches. My clarity of the gospel came to me when I came out of the churches.

    Find the like minded believers and fellowship with them, even if it is a few of you, and watch the faithful pastors on line on you tube, such as Ralph Arnold Yankee and Tom Cucuzza.

  3. Thank you, John. I still find myself occasionally fighting with the ghosts of former spiritual brainwashing (because that’s what it amounts to) but the Lord is slowly out-processing it from my mind. It happens less often than it used to.

    BTW, what I wrote above should read, “When you’ve been misled BY misled men into swallowing LS…”

  4. Don, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    It is such a relief to finally understand that eternal life is a gift – offered as a gift and received as a gift.

  5. Greetings,

    Enjoying the comments. For many years I had agonized with my faith, even to the point of despair and contemplating suicide, because that was where I had been deceived into putting my focus: as someone described above, lordship salvation deceived me into putting faith in my faith instead of faith in Christ alone. Doing that really is inescapable if you’ve bought the Calvinism pre-loaded into LS. it is unavoidable.

    The miserable curse of LS, besides being a false gospel, is the same curse inherent in the Calvinism from which it arose: you cannot know whether you really are one of God’s elect. Period. Everything else flows from and revolves around that fundamental lie.

    When you’ve been misled be misled men into swallowing LS, you HAVE to try to prove that you’re saved (elect). The only way to do that is by your works. There’s nothing else because faith in Christ simply isn’t enough…faith can be counterfeit, spurious, you may be a tare among the wheat, etc.

    Work is all you got.

    While LS victims will reject the notion that they’re trying to prove to others that they are saved — and I tend to believe them when they say that — every single one of them knows in his or her heart that they are on an endless, fruitless treadmill of trying to prove to THEMSELVES that they are elect.

    Problem with that is, your own flesh makes you the hardest person to fool. Your work is never done because the flesh — despite promises of the eradication — never goes away. So you doubt even more. It’s another in a series of unbearable burdens laid on the back of the LS victim.

    That’s why many of them, as I was, tend to be not just self-righteous but truly bitter, brittle, unhappy people: they can’t be convinced God loves them (they may be reprobates!) so part of them whispers every second of every day, “What’s the point?”

    LS is a literal curse to which death often seems preferable. That is not an exaggeration. I know, I was there.

    But though it took many years and there was much mental baggage to jettison, I thank God and Christ for His grace that I was helped out of it.

  6. Thanking you Holly.

  7. So glad you were led out Mary by the truth of His Word.

  8. Yes I attended BSF too, they are an international bible study group, they are huge, like Starbucks one on every corner, just about. They allow all different denominations to attend, they call it fellowship, I don’t know how you can have fellowship with Pentecostals, and presbytrns and Catholics.

    I guess when I did attend there as a catholic charasmatic, I am at least grateful to that while I was at BSF, that I discovered Roman Catholicism was false. Not that it was taught there, but because most of the people in the group said that they did eat meat on a good Friday, that lead me into why they did and praise god my eyes were open to Catholicism.

    Then I was lead into another false gospel of works, different flavour, Calvanism and lordship. The control was very big there, I was uneasy with it for many reasons. They never allowed u to speak against anyone elses denomination. Like the Billy Graham crusades out there, they would send the people back to their false denominations and churches, 20-30 years down the track these people still are in their error. (So much for the holy spirit working)

    They claimed no one was allowed to tell the catholics or other denominations that they were in error, that the holy spirit would show them, otherwise their would be all this infighting. (Neat trick of the enemy)

    If anyone is in BSF out there, I appeal to you to get out and stay home and read your bibles and listen to some good strong teaching on line. Audrey Johnson the founder, wrote a book, that people will read when they attend. called “Created for Committment” the purpose was to set up an ecumencial gathering.

    I don’t endorse everything on Lighthouse Trails site, but there are some good letters of resignation from ex-leaders. I thought I was coming out of Rome, and I entered another type of Rome, I would of died and gone to hell thanks to the so called experts of BSF. Cursed is the man who trusts in man.

    Looking back I trusted these people that they knew how to rightly divide the word of god and that they had the correct gospel, what a fatal mistake I would of made.


  9. Thanks for the warning. I don’t know who they are, but will keep and eye out and share this in some of our FB groups.

  10. Thanks for the warnings about BSF. I read some other sites warning about them and I have no plans to start attending any of their groups. One of their main problems I see is that they try to be ecumenical with different denominations and anyone who calls themselves Christian or not. And I get the impression they want to spoon feed people rather than letting people discover Biblical truths themselves.
    They also sound like these local church small groups or cell groups that push “accountability” to the group, I got so tired of their little buzz words like “get connected.”
    And if you read the BSF statement of faith on their website it even sounds LS or Calvinistic. It almost sounds like they’re saying you’re saved by Christ through the power of your faith. I noticed that most of the BSF groups that meet in my general area meet at Presbyterian and Baptist churches.

  11. Thank you for being patient with me. As I said before, I am going through my former BSF Romans study written by James Montgomery Boice with a fine tooth comb, if only to warn others still in BSF (if willing) of the dangers of Calvinism and LS in those studies.
    Romans 6:11 “If you do return to the life you lived before coming to Christ and are able to continue in it, you are NOT saved”.

    Regarding Sanctification: ‘If you claim to be a Christian and are living a sinful life, your conduct is inconsistent with that profession. You must therefore straighten your life out, or you dare not assume that you are born again”.

    Romans 7: 14-25: The ‘Carnal Christian” theology…has weaknesses, it postulates a 2-stage Christian experience in which, in stage 1, a person receives Jesus as Saviour only without acknowledging Him as Lord of his/her life; then later in stage 2, he goes on to receive Him as Lord. This is not what Paul is saying in Romans. When Paul uses the word “carnal”, the contrast in not between ‘worldly Christians’ and those who have progressed to the point of acknowledging Jesus Christ as Lord. It is between Christians and those who are NOT Christians at all. ‘Carnal’ refers not to a low-stage of Christian commitment but to non-Christian behaviour”.

    Why didn’t I think of asking at that time I was in BSF: ‘What about the Corinthian Christians who were ‘carnal’ but they were still born-again believers as Paul addressed them as ‘babes in Christ’ indwelt by the Holy Spirit?’

  12. William, I agree with Alice, that is a great post. Jesus would not be chastising Himself nor patting Himself on the back, these are real clear communications that one is responsible for being of faith or having little faith.

  13. Oy Alice… James Montgomery Boice….

    You know MANY do not admit upfront. I was in a Calvinist group. I mostly observed. One pastor was lamenting that he was having trouble with his elders, bringing them around to an ‘understanding’ of the TULIP doctrine. Some other pastors came out to give him solace and advice. To not use certain ‘words’. To not identify as a Calvinist. All sneaky advice, lying, and hiding. Certainly doesn’t remind me one bit of what 2 Cor 4:1-3 says. These kind of people are deceptive.

    1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 but have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

  14. William, thank you for such a great response to my question about BSF.
    Yes you are so right about BSF being Calvinistic, yet I didn’t pick it up while I was at BSF. Looking back, the ROMANS study is so infected with Calvinism being written by none other than James Montgomery Boice, a Calvinist.
    I was taken in because they don’t come out and actually admit upfront that they are Calvinists. It is so deceptive and subtle. We were under Calvinism, Lordship ‘salvation’ without ever knowing what those terms were.

  15. Alice – The error in BSF thinking is that they are deeply rooted in Calvinism. Calvinism falsely teaches that “faith” is a gift from God bestowed only upon the “chosen elect few”. According to Calvinism, the “gift of faith” that God infuses on a person ( the “chosen elect few”) will enable a person to believe in the gospel and be saved. In other words, “regeneration precedes faith” which puts the cart in front of the horse. According to Calvinism this gift will not fail, but automatically will produce the desired attributes and qualities in a person ( commitment, obedience, perseverance to the end, faithfulness, etc.). This, however, is not Biblical for man has free will and faith is a human exercise and the Bible has many passages that exhort Christians to be FAITHFUL. If faith was a “gift” from God, then that will nullify man’s free will and man’s responsibility to believe the gospel.

    According to Calvinism those that “commit”, “obey” and “persevere” to the end are saved, whereas those who don’t are dismissed as “unsaved”.

    The following passages in God’s Word utterly refute Calvinism’s false doctrine that “faith” is a gift from God:

    If God gave people the faith to believe, then why would Jesus rebuke His disciples for their “little faith” and “no faith”? Many Calvinists will no doubt argue that Jesus 11 disciples were saved because God had “infused” them with the “gift of faith” enabling them to believe. The “gift of faith” heresy is based upon an eisegesis of Ephesians 2:8-9 where the Calvinist takes this passage out of context and reads the “Calvinist theology” into the text.

    In the New Testament we see instance after instance of Jesus disciple’s faith FAILING:

    Matthew 6:30 – Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of LITTLE FAITH?

    Matthew 8:26 – And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of LITTLE FAITH? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

    Matthew 14:31- And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of LITTLE FAITH, wherefore didst thou doubt?

    Matthew 16:8 – Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of LITTLE FAITH, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

    Matthew 17:20 – And Jesus said unto them, Because of your UNBELIEF: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

    Mark 4:40 – And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye HAVE NO FAITH?

    Luke 8:25 – And he said unto them, WHERE IS YOUR FAITH? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

    If faith was a “gift of God”, shouldn’t Jesus be rebuking the Father for giving a faith that is defective? I mean after all, if the “gift of faith” is from God according to Calvinism, it won’t fail. But with Jesus disciples we see instance after instance of FAILURE. Jesus rebukes His disciples for their weak faith because it was generated from within their own hearts. This also includes the Israelites, God’s chosen people in the OT, whose faith failed time and again in their worship of demon gods instead of God Himself.

    In the New Testament we even see John the Baptist’s faith FAILING in regards to who Jesus was in Matthew 11:3, and Luke 7:19-20 with his question, “Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?”

    One should bear in mind that this John the Baptist is the same man who said in John 1:29, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”, but then later expresses doubt.

    In Matthew 8:10, and Luke 7:9, Jesus commends the centurion’s great faith. Jesus commendation of the centurion’s great faith only makes sense if the centurion’s great faith was generated from within the centurion’s own heart. Hence, Calvinism’s “gift of faith” is debunked.

  16. Thank you to all of you who commented in reply to my question regarding BSF. You have confirmed what I feared about BSF: it is not trustworthy. It preaches a confusing gospel of faith+ works while giving lip-service to Eph:2:8-9 as Johninnc said.
    How can anyone get saved under such confusion? No one can ever have eternal security or assurance of their salvation until they have lived out their whole (entire) lives and proved that they have ‘persevered’ in faith and obedience until the end of their lives. So their faith is NOT in the finished work of Christ alone but in themselves as well. They claim to study the Bible but they don’t rightly divide the Word of Truth, thus missing out on being approved by God. 2 Tim 2:15. What a tragedy for all those 1000’s of people studying the Bible at BSF classes all over the world, thinking that they are saved when in fact they could hear those frightening words from the Lord Jesus: I never knew you, depart from Me…!

  17. Something that just occurred to me after reading the latest comments:

    It seems as though LSers are always about proving their (and everybody else’s) faith. It’s always about “true faith” or “genuine faith”, as though the actual object of their faith is their “faith” itself. Their faith isn’t in the Lord’s sacrifice for them, though they obviously think it is. But it’s really in something about them. They want something visible, tangible to rest in. They want to walk by sight.

    And I know exactly what trying to live that way is like, how subtle that line of reasoning is.

  18. Its the Object of our Faith Jesus it is NOT faith of faith
    Not I but Christ
    20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    I do not frustrate the grace of God:
    the quote below is frustrated grace and does not save placing the burden of salvation on self instead of Jesus .
    the statement below also says Jesus is not enough

    “If we begin in genuine faith, there will be no falling away, we will hold on (3:6) and hold firmly (3:14). Perseverance is the proof of genuine faith. If we are Christians, our faith will endure……The mark of the true, genuine faith is that it endures to the end”. And again: “Have you believed the gospel and have you shown that you do by your obedience?”

  19. William , I have asked some load-ship believers, some Calvinists that very question. There is no way they can KNOW by their own standards of proof. That is, if they were honest about it. One guy I asked turned it around on me, and said I could not know. I responded that the Bible told me differently, and since I had believed God’s testimony of His Son, that He gave me eternal life, and that <life is in His Son, and that the Holy Spirit witnesses with my spirit that I am a child of God. He mocked me for the same 'feelings' the Mormons have with the burning of the bosom. I reminded him again, it is by believing what God said is true, and I can trust Him, that He says by that record, I can KNOW I have eternal life.

    Alice, I get so tired of people who state they believe one way but teach something entirely different out of the other side of their mouth. When do we see the apostles ever telling people to prove that they were ‘really saved’ by their works? Yet men have no qualms in doing this, and miss the obvious, that God is eternal and when we were born again, it was a sealed deal at that moment. God already foreknew everything we were going to do, right or wrong, and we were forgiven ALL trespasses at the cross.

  20. Chas – I do love that part — rest in what I’ve done…

    His Cross, His death, His burial, His resurrection, His life, His payment… He gives us eternal life and tells us we will NEVER perish. That is not good enough for some. They either make people doubt they have received eternal life as a free gift, or they make people doubt that it means everlasting. That THEY have to keep it, versus God keeping us. It makes me sick and sad at the same time, people like JMac and others who work at making people ‘examine themselves to see if they are in the faith’. Then others who supposedly believe it, yet say somehow it’s not part of the necessary truth of the Gospel, and they compromise this truth, and are literally causing people to go to hell.

  21. Alice – the statement you just quoted from BSF is reeking with the 5th point of Calvinism which is “perseverance of the saints” – a false doctrine. The Bible teaches PRESERVATION of the saints by an UNFAILING SAVIOR – John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:28-29, Romans 8:38-39, 2 Timothy 2:13, 1 Corinthians 3:15.

  22. Alice, yes – what you quoted is Lordship “salvation” error.

    Very few who believe in works for salvation will come right out and say so. They will usually pay lip service to grace, but then contradict it with statements such as the quote you provided.

    If obedience proves faith, what is the quantification standard?

  23. I have been following the comments above with interest and I don’t mean to change the subject on JMac’s LS but…….
    I re-read my old BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) notes on ‘Acts of the Apostles’ on Hebrews:3:6..
    It says: “If we begin in genuine faith, there will be no falling away, we will hold on (3:6) and hold firmly (3:14). Perseverance is the proof of genuine faith. If we are Christians, our faith will endure……The mark of the true, genuine faith is that it endures to the end”. And again: “Have you believed the gospel and have you shown that you do by your obedience?”

    Would you agree that this sounds like Lordship ‘salvation’?
    Isn’t this an accursed gospel of faith+works, which nullifies Grace?

    And yet there are other places where it sounds like they teach pure grace-salvation, so they double-speak (out of both sides of the mouth), causing confusion….no wonder I never had the clarity of the Grace gospel during those years I was at BSF…!

  24. Chas – Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists have to wait till the very end AFTER they die to find out whether or not they “made it into the Kingdom”. They won’t find the “Jesus” that they invented in their minds.

  25. Holly…

    It’s no wonder JMac tells people it’s ok to doubt one’s salvation once in a while. Thing is, that’s just a watered-down version of the RC teaching that “no one can be certain they are saved”.

    That’s the way I lived for much of my walk, always wondering if I’d “done enough”. The problem is nobody could tell me how much “enough” is, not in any practical sense. I was always trying to “rest in the Lord” while checking my wake every now-and-then to see if there were any “good works” to verify my salvation. Did it “take”? Did I do it right this time?

    Along the way, there were a few people telling me to “quit trying”, but they would usually tack on the “works will come” rational, as though there still has to be works, but they’re easier, or… something.

    All the while, the Lord was just telling me, “Rest in what I’ve done! Believe!!”

  26. Chas – God’s golf clubs? makes me chuckle… With the Calvinist load-shippers, I wonder if they blame God for their bogeys? 🙂

    You know it reminds me of Francis Chan and David Platt using those examples then talking about the things they had done to sell a bigger house and buy a smaller one, etc.

    I honestly feel for these guys because they haven’t sold it all, they’ve only down sized, so when they impose these restrictions on themselves, it must make them live in fear. How much? Have they done enough?

  27. Chas – You’re welcome! I hate the rationale of Lordship Salvationists. When they talk about saving faith/salvation, they insist and expect others to follow their strict criteria, but when it comes to them, they just rationalize and find clever ways to justify their hypocrisy – their fine clothing, the cars they drive, their homes, etc. They always try to justify their double standard.

  28. William…
    Thanks for those quotes. I’m amazed at JMac’s consistent misinterpretation of those passages; a complete reversal of their intent.

    Exactly my (implied) point. LS/Lite has no more biblical justification than “regular” LS (LS/Classic?). But it is a lot easier to rationalize into one’s lifestyle.

    Oh, yes, the “it’s for God’s work” rationale. There’s that too. I suppose those are God’s golf clubs.

  29. Chas – Astute observation. I suppose they rationalize further by saying they don’t love their riches nor trust in them. However by their logic, they’d have to be poor and homeless to make it in that ‘narrow gate of works’ and THEN once saved, I guess they then could acquire riches as long as they did it for ‘God’s work’ (i.e. JMac’s boast of over 400 books and Bible studies for sale).

  30. William – if you ever see me using that phrase and not giving you credit, let me know, that is so right on! Loadship damnationists… wow…

    And I had to laugh about the fruit/works detector (another one if I don’t give you credit for in the future, it will be because I have forgotten, but that is sadly classic). I say that Paul Washer’s forefinger is permanently atrophied or paralyzed in a crooked pointing accusatory position.

    The ones I have run across, seem to have faulty ones. As soon as you defend the gospel, they INSTANTLY (without having ever met you, or having anything evil to say of you from your conversation) accuse me of licentiousness, being lawless, wanting to just live like the devil, etc. Straight through the internet they are able to detect that…

  31. Chas,

    then I would ask the question…..”where does the bible say one must be willing to sell all they had”? Book, chapter and verse please?


  32. Chas – Lordship Damnationists like MacArthur are sheer hypocrites. It’s “okay” for them, but not okay for others. Like I said earlier, if MacArthur practiced what he preached he would presently be living a meager existence in a cave. Note the following heretical statements that he made in his book, “The Gospel According to Jesus”, actually the book should be re-titled, “The Gospel According to MacArthur”.

    He makes the following statements:

    John M says, “Faith as He [Jesus] characterized it is nothing less than a complete exchange of all that we are for all that He is.” (The Gospel According to Jesus pg.144)

    “The man who sells all to obtain treasure pictures the one who enters the kingdom of heaven.” (pg 145)

    “The kingdom of heaven is only for those who perceive its immeasurable value and are willing to sacrifice everything else to acquire it.” (pg 147)

    “Those who do get a glimpse of the value of the kingdom will then joyfully give all they have to obtain it.” (pg 148)

    “He will liquidate everything to get it…That is the nature of saving faith” (pg 148)

    “Do not throw away this paradox just because it is difficult. Salvation is both free and costly.” (pg 149)

    We all know for a fact that MacArthur HAS NOT “completely exchanged all” or “sold all” according to pages 144 and 145. ( MacArthur lives in a nice house, plays golf, owns a car, wears fine suits up on the pulpit every Sunday, runs the Grace Community Church and runs the Master’s Seminary. I also read online that he as a 6 digit figure in his account.

    We all know that MacArthur HAS NOT “sacrificed everything” according to page 147.

    We all know that MacArthur HAS NOT “given all he has” according to page 148 and has NOT “liquidated everything”.

    In conclusion, we all know that MacArthur is LYING and HAS NOT practiced what he preaches and teaches. The man is a hypocrite, false teacher, and a liar.

  33. Perhaps JMac is practicing the “Lordship/Lite” kind of LS. You know how one version of the LS view of repentance is that, to be saved, one only has to be willing to turn from all sin and make Jesus Lord of his life?

    Maybe JMac has assured himself that he’s willing to give all his stuff away, if the command came.

    In any case there’s always some kind of rationale cooked up to make the LS way of life “livable”. Legalists always find some way to bend the rules they think they have to keep. That was something that confused me for so long in my CCCM days. Pastors would preach about “giving it all to God, holding nothing back”, then drive home in their Cadillac (or Ferrari) to watch the big game.

    Not that there’s anything wrong with Caddies, Ferraris, or football, but to hear these guys preach, you’d think there was.

  34. Holly – I am sure many Lordship Salvationists do a lot of comparing with others. They are no different from the Pharisee that Jesus described in Luke 18:9-12. Lordship damnationists always wear a microscope around their necks and also carry a fruit/works detector.

  35. William – I wonder sometimes if they compare themselves and figure that they do these things in moderation compared to the other wolves driving Bentleys, wearing Armani suits, and having affairs in Rome? So they think they are ‘modest’ compared to the ostentatious wolves, and they give ‘a lot’ (like Rick Warren bragging he gave back his salary to the church)….

  36. Well said, Preston. If MacArthur practiced what he preached, then he would have stopped playing golf and liquidated all his golf clubs, golf balls, sold his house, car and all those fine suits that he wears up on the pulpit and given the money to the poor, and then go live a meager existence in cave. MacArthur appears to have a double standard. He expects others to follow his teachings on how to be saved, but he himself has not followed that path.

  37. Phil R.

    I saw too this example. John MacArthur actually recycles a lot of what he’s already taught, and this rich young ruler example he never really goes into the fact that no one can observe the whole law (except Jesus), although this young man thought he had. He also never brings up that it’s about where this ruler’s trust was — in his riches.

    He also calls the sermon on the mount the gospel, as well as James 4:6-10, says something like it is the greatest call to the ‘gospel’ in the Word.

    6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

    He fails of course to mention context, even immediate context of verse 5 directly before and verse 11 directly after prove these are believers.

    5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

    11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

  38. I can’t remember the link to this Cameron/MacArthur video and I hesitate to post links or sites here Preston. I’ve read JM’s net worth is well into six figures.
    What troubles me is people who praise JM who are in his church or are Calvinists, yet I think some really want to escape the load and demands that his LS requirements places on them. I’ve read post after post from individuals who have come here to Exp. and expressed such joy and relief from the burdens and demands of LS to win salvation. They have come to see that they are eternally saved when they simply believed the gospel that Christ already accomplished their complete salvation when he died and rose form the dead for them.
    I even got beat up with JM/LS in a church I was in in the mid 1990’s, but I never really bought into it in this church But it was sometimes a struggle to stand firm in my grace alone beliefs against the majority who were believed various forms of the faith plus works LS message. I finally got fed up with them and told the pastor I was fed up with the LS false beliefs, that I was purely grace alone, and I was leaving this church. What a relief that was!

  39. what Phil said it is a popular false teaching .
    in the IFCA fundamentalist church i was part of that is what was taught .

    amen to what Preston said and if i may add
    unless a soul is oriented on “The Truth of the Gospel” unfortunately few never see it even fewer come out from among them .
    Those who are closest to the Truth of the gospel and not see it never do

  40. Phil,

    a question for J. Mac.

    Have you sold ALL you have, given it to the poor and followed Jesus???

    IF that is a “requirement” then J Mac has just condemned himself.

    the point of the rich young ruler is to show that it is impossible for man to keep the commandments perfectly to enter into life. (why callest me thou good, there is NONE good but God).

  41. I recently saw this Kirk Cameron video of his testimony. It also included some comments by John MacArthur. What Kirk said was Lordship salvation enough with his, “I did this, or I did that” in his salvation equation. But what MacArthur said really struck me. He used the rich young ruler passage to say that this is what we are to believe and follow to be saved. According to John MacArthur what Christ told this rich young ruler was what God is also telling us we need to do to be saved! MacArthur did not even mention Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection which is the gospel of our salvation.

    I bring this up so that there is not a doubt that MacArthur is teaching a false gospel that Paul warns about in Galatians chap 1.

    I just pray that more people in his LS legalistic church and other churches like it will see JM”s erroneous teachings and leave and break free of the chains of his “Grace Community Church.”

  42. William and Phil R., I worry about those teachers too, and even Billy Graham has expressed his doubt and sadly whether he’ll be ‘let in’ after people like ‘Mother Teresa’ who sadly didn’t have any assurance of salvation herself in her latter writings. So sad they haven’t found assurance in God’s testimony of His Son, but likely have wrested Scripture to their own destruction. I am also praying for and fear for those who follow after them.

  43. Chas – Welcome, so glad you’re here, a lot of us feel the same way and have experienced the same kind of wonderment. I kept reading John and Romans over and over, had some trouble with 9-11 until I began to understand who was spoken to and about a majority of the time in those passages (Israel), and that helped also. I was so grateful for Romans 7 and reading the end was such balm to my sin wearied flesh. And that’s when I began to feed my mind more, (renewing the mind that served the law of God) and left the flesh to be dealt with by the One who cleaned me up with His Word (practically speaking as positionally I was already clean and perfected forever by one sacrifice). Anyways, so thankful for His goodness to us.

    So happy to have you with us, and hope you will continue in fellowship with us. In Jesus Christ eternally 🙂

  44. Hi Chas, Catholicism and much of Protestantism teach salvation by faith plus the human element.. It’s just that Catholic and Protestant teachings have varying ways of going about it.
    As I am writing this, TBN is showing its usual Saturday night Billy Graham archive crusade, this one from Columbus, Ohio in 1993. Graham’s scripture subject is 1 John 5:13. I put the TV on mute so I could write this post. Besides, I pretty much knew how Graham would twist this verse around with his legalistic LS requirements for salvation. You would think that Billy would be preaching that this shows that we have eternal life through believing the RECORD that God gave us of his son, that is the gospel (record) of Christ’s death for our sins, his burial and his resurrection.–the gospel of our salvation. But no, Graham’s idea of believing to be real it must life itself our in our actions (works) and changes that produces a godly life. I didn’t even have to listen to BG’s sermon to know that he would twist it into his usual LS legalism. He cannot just accept what John wrote, that we have eternal life simply by believing the good news, the record that God has given us eternal life and that life is in his Son. (1 John 5:11-13).
    I am not here to decide if people like Graham are saved or will be at the White Throne Judgement. But, whichever happens I think Graham will be in shock after he dies and learns the truth.

  45. Chas, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    We’re glad you’re here!

  46. It is so good to find a site wherein true grace (the UN-merited favor of God) is taught. I wish it hadn’t taken me so long to find this site!

    I came out of Roman Catholicism in the mid 1970s after “believing on Jesus for salvation” according to the “4 Spiritual Laws” model(The “CRU” people), more or less. For the next 30 years or so I considered myself a member of an “evangelical” church that promoted cover-to-cover Bible study, but taught a confusing mix of Calvinist/Arminian doublespeak. I didn’t recognize that at the time, of course, I just tried to live with the conflict and worry about whether or not I’d witnessed to enough people each day–on average–to justify my justification; make it “worth God’s trouble” to save me (assuming I WAS saved). Basically, having come out of RC legalism, I had jumped head-first into “Protestant Evangelical” legalism.

    What rescued me from that pit was a personal study of Paul’s letter to the Romans. (Kind of ironic, considering the RC church I was born into.) The true nature of God’s saving grace–that it really is FREE–became more evident as I understood Romans more thoroughly, but you know how it is. When you find something in the Bible by yourself, you sometimes wonder if it’s “just me”. With all the anti-free grace teaching I was being exposed to in so-called “protestantism”, It took me a long time to confirm that the view of saving grace I was seeing in the Bible is the true understanding.

    Now, it’s just a matter of “standing fast”. Sites like this make that easier.

    Many thanks.

  47. Let’s pray for those guys.

  48. Alice,

    Well said! I can just picture John MacArthur, John Piper, RC Sproul, Paul Washer, Kirk Cameron, Ray Comfort, Steve Lawson, Francis Chan, etc, and many others pleading before Jesus at the Great White Throne Judgement to let them in based on their works.

  49. Preston, good to hear from you again.

    I was thinking the same thing last night – Alice’s comment reads like an article.

    I am also toying with doing something about the dangers of LS summer camps and vacation Bible schools.

  50. Very frustrating, even in families, where they view you as ‘always finding something wrong with someone’, and saying some right after like, ‘I don’t feel the need to judge and nitpick everyone’. But, the Lord first, and may we be wise and harmless at the same time.

  51. hello all,

    I have been quiet as there really has not been much to add my two cents too. However, Alice, that is so sad but so true. it was well put with a “new way” to put it. maybe a new article idea for John. 🙂

  52. Well done Alice, yes this is the sad reality that people are dying under these deceptive false gospels, lets get out there and warn as many as possible, pick up the phone and ring the church leaders, do what ever we can, use the technology that we have to get this good news out there.

  53. It’s all the false gospels out there, and people wonder why we stand firm on the points of the gospel… They can be saved and be loadship doctrine. But not likely many are going to be saved by loadship doctrine.

  54. Alice, how sad. The Bible says that many will point to their works and be told “I never knew you.”

  55. I was lying in bed thinking what the Lordship Salvationist would say to the Lord Jesus at the Great White Throne Judgement.
    Here is a possible scenario:
    Lord Jesus: Depart from Me, you worker of iniquity.
    LSer: But Lord, I don’t understand, I have evidence of my salvation, here are some: I went to church every Sunday and served as an elder, I ran a Bible study, I gave money to the Missions, I did many ‘wonderful works’ to prove that I am really saved.
    Lord Jesus: In that case, I guess you really didn’t need Me to die on the cross for your sins. You seem to have a lot of ‘self-righteousness’ so you don’t need to have My righteousness imputed to you.
    LSer: Lord, I was always taught by my pastor that simply trusting in YOUR finished work on the cross was NOT enough, that is just ‘easy believism’ or cheap-grace and mental assent. I was taught that I had to produce good works and fruit in order to establish that I am truly saved. I was constantly told to ‘examine yourself’ and ‘faith without works is dead’ and ‘you shall know them by their fruit’ etc. So I was looking at my performance and fruit to prove that I am saved.
    Lord Jesus: Why didn’t you understand that in the Bible, I have repeatedly told you in Ephesians and Romans that salvation/eternal life is a GIFT of GRACE, given to you freely and all you had to do is to BELIEVE. I did ALL the hard work of redemption, getting punished in your place for your sins, and took the death penalty for you, and I have offered you the FREE GIFT.
    LSer: Lord, surely YOU are not going to cast me into the Lake of Fire, just because I didn’t understand the GRACE Gospel properly.
    Lord Jesus: I have given you the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit to help you rightly divide the Truth, but you chose to listen to false teachers. Away from Me into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

  56. Matt – great review, great ‘no pun intended’…Yes John does get it, praise God for his good blogs… (He’s allowed good works now that he is a believer) 🙂 (Titus 3:8), contrary to those who love to accuse us of wanting to sin like the devil, or live in licentiousness…

  57. I am so sick of Lordship Salvationists insistence that the “evidence of works” is the proof that someone is “saved”. A person can come to know Christ TODAY and be eternally saved forever, but tomorrow can be involved in a tragic car accident that leaves the person permanently paralyzed full body for the rest of his life and unable to perform or show “works”.

  58. Matt for Grace and Truth


    Your definition of Lordship salvation (a.k.a. works-righteousness salvation) is clear, concise, complete, and I believe correct. Such a pithy, precise, and practical summation is evidence that you thoroughly grasp the subject! Keep up the “good work” (no pun intended).

  59. Mary, according to an article by Dr. Paul McHugh, a former Psychiatrist in Chief at Johns Hopkins University, the suicide rate for people who have the gender reassignment surgery is 20 times the rate of the general population. The writer analogized the body image confusion of these people to anorexics, who mistakenly think they are fat while starving themselves.

  60. Hi Guys,
    This whole homosexual debate is on at the moment with Ireland endorsing the homosexuality agenda and Australia too. When young teenagers say they have this bent toward this sexuality. We know god didn’t make us this way. Look at the whole Kardashan thing with her stepfather coming out as Caitlyn now a female. She apparently is going to be given an award for courage for coming out of the closet with her sexuality.

    They say so many have taken their lives tragically because they are living in shame and are now all being encouraged to come out of the closet.

    I guess what i am trying to say is satan is allowing them to feel this way. Is it the sin nature that is bent on perverting their sexuality. It surely has to be a choice to not feel this way. I saw an interview with Ricky Martin a while back on 60 minutes and the reporter told him that she couldn’t believe that people were telling you to supress these feelings and that it was bad to be feeling this way.

  61. Curtis M – been having a discussion with a Calvinist/loadship person today, and really this errant scientific teaching would match well with Calvinism, because then of course God would have knit a homosexual together in the womb as a homosexual. That’s why the hardcore Calvinists have no problem stating God ordains rape, incest, etc.

  62. pondering thought
    calvinist say mankind does not have ability to choose God
    science is saying homosexuality is a gene and not a choice
    X chromosome called Xq28 holds a gene or genes that predispose a man to being gay

  63. John John and Adam777 – interestingly enough, loadship-calvinists use those two verses quite frequently to make their claims. The first they say proves repent = repent from sin.

    The second they say proves unconditional election….

    I happen to love both those without their ‘take’. God bless you both.

  64. 1 Corinthians 1:27

    “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty”.

  65. Holly, God could say it a million times and the pride of man would never hear it apart from the Spirit:

    “I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”


    “In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.”

    The endless additions and tortured explanations you allude to “weary the body”, but God can use that to drive us back to Him (or TO Him for the first time).

  66. Adam777 and Johninnc, exactly what I said regarding this ‘apologetics’ teacher. In multiple pages she was still unable to ‘finish’ her gospel presentation. She was going to need to do a second part.

    Praise God for His Word which is pure, and not the convoluted and twisted intellectual mumbo-jumbo that is just frustrating to see someone that names His name, attempt to use. It’s man-centered, all about them, what they are doing, what they have done, how much they know, how much Greek they understand, how much studying, how many years of ‘Bible school’, whatever notches they apply on their load-ship belt, it’s tragic. For them, and for those impressed by them anyways. And not like a child who simply recognizes the emperor has no clothes.

  67. Wow, yes! Great point Johninc! Agreed 🙂

  68. Adam, the other thing about children is they are dependent. A child-like faith is full dependence on Christ for eternal life.

  69. Holly,

    Yeah, the religious implications and contradicting and confusing rules they push for salvation always brings me right back to the child-like standard of faith Christ described in Scripture. Could a child understand the convoluted would-be Gospel these teachers from below are professing? Head faith vs. heart faith, turning from sin, surrendering, promising, etc……NO, of course not.

    The simple Gospel message of 1 Corinthians 15 is the one a child could understand and is the one that saves us sinners. Amen.

  70. Adam777, same with this woman who calls us all false teachers of the gospel, who doesn’t understand the meaning of repentance, but claims to know Greek. Who doesn’t understand eternal security, the two natures, the difference between the gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace. Strange, but she is not just deceived, but a deceiver. She has kept these things quiet in order to try to pick off the sheep. I pray that the Lord would confuse them both, and make their teaching even more confusing so people would stop following them. If the Lord is willing that someone might pull them from the fire, but I pray for their disciples to open their eyes and seek the Lord while He might be found.

  71. John John – so good to see you! Galatians is kind of our Magna Carta in some ways, it teaches us so much about not only how we are saved eternally, but how we are saved in our walk. We will not be saved from the power of sin when we are bewitched into trying to finish what began in the Spirit in the flesh. This is why these people were biting, devouring, envying, striving, lusting, etc.

    We walk by the Spirit and as soon as we try to walk by law, it reminds me of the diet we’ll start tomorrow after we consume some ice cream the night before, get frustrated and quit. Much easier to live by grace ❤

    Stop in more often!

  72. Holly,

    I am praying the same for his sake, but it is sincerely troubling to hear about some of the concepts and demonic doctrines that come out of this “disciple’s” Bible study every week. Truly the blindER leading the blind.

  73. I check in here a few times a week and read/enjoy the great responses.

    “But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”

    This quote in Galatians has really stuck in my mind because the error we are all concerned with here seems to originate from the very thing Paul addresses.

    “The man that doeth them shall live in them.”

    How can THAT be WRONG? Yet Paul says it is not the way of faith. Is this “the way that seemeth right unto a man”, establishing one’s own righteousness by observing an external law?

    Of the many groups/errors discussed here, I have a feeling they would nod a big YES to “The man that doeth them shall live in them.”

    “the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”

  74. Barf and skybalon someone used once (dung). Jesus is the one that paid the ransom in full. Could you imagine a captive being told, if you come with me, you are free, and yet staying there adding their pennies of ‘worth’ to the pot waiting to see if that is enough to get out.

  75. Adam777
    It’s a pretty common accusation because we are all like-minded, Jim Floyd, and Bryan Roach (both commenters here) along with a few others who listen to Tom Cucuzza as their pastor, hold their position and their statement of faith firmly, they stand fast. They do not equivocate on the gospel of grace.

    It is self-deception and they seek to sneak off others in their deception by ‘private emails’ with sly innuendo. No, if you read this convoluted treatise on the gospel which was not finished in pages and pages and pages of explanations, you’d see first-hand in this person’s blog on ‘the gospel’ (she uses every verse with the word) how the enemy has subtly deceived her.

    You put it well, I don’t want to dare try to compare anything I do, and anything I do in myself will be burnt up anyways. It needs to be me yielded to Him, and Him working in me. I need to stick close to the One who saved me.

    Wow on your story of the local disciple, I sure hope he is not going to be a martyr and find out his ‘wonderful works’ had nothing to do with righteousness….

  76. FryingPan9, it’s a strictly theological term reserved for junky, illogical, unbiblical doctrine and catchphrases. 😁

  77. FryingPan9

    I never thought I’d ever do a word search on this blog for “barf” but I guess there’s a first time for everything . . .

  78. Johninnc,
    I also can see it that way, too. The gospel does pit father against son, etc., in terms of false doctrine versus truth. And in the sense of prioritizing Jesus above all others, we would be able to repudiate their false doctrine because we already hold Him in higher esteem and would rather seek His approval and truth than those of even our parents.

  79. Penelope,

    Right on sister! haha God is love and we see then that His Grace flows from His love. ” For God so LOVED the world, that He GAVE His only begotten Son, that whosoever would believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life”. John 3:16

    Johninc, that’s a very interesting point. I’ve never thought of that Scripture in that light. Hmmm.

  80. Penelope, I think of “hating my mother” in terms of repudiating any false doctrine that she may espouse in favor of the truth.

  81. Agreed Johninc, agreed.

    Relative holiness means nothing. The only standard that matters is God’s standard of perfection. And against that Holy, Righteous, and Just standard we have been weighed, measured, and found desperately wanting by Him.

    Isaiah 64:6:
    “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away”.

    Psalm 14:2-3:
    ” The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one”.

  82. Adam777: “Barf.” Right on, brother.

    Isn’t the phrase, “Hate your father and mother,” an idiom? I explained to my SS class that since God IS love and can never be less than Himself, it is illogical to to think Jesus literally meant we had to HATE others. Instead, it means that in prioritizing life, Jesus should be so far above anything else that our love for the next important things – like family – pale in comparison to our love for Jesus. But this applies to our walk, not our salvation. In order to get started on the ‘walk’, we first have to enter the correct Gate and get on the right Path, and that can only be done through Jesus.

  83. Adam, your wife had it right when she said most in reality are not really living any holier of lives than anyone else in Christendom,

    The key word is Christendom. We know no one gets into heaven by keeping laws – whether it is God’s perfect law or other peoples’ self-imposed laws. Many in Christendom are not in Christ, because they think that keeping laws is necessary for their salvation. And, many in Christ fall into that trap once they are saved.

    And, while we should be holy because we are saved, we cannot be saved by being holy. Nor is “being holy” a requirement to become saved, stay saved, or prove we are saved.

    Measuring “relative holiness,” by one’s arbitrary standards, is the essence of Lordship “salvation.”

  84. Holly,

    Cult? Seems to have a similar ring to the reception the Pharisees gave Christ and His disciples, as well as Paul the Apostle.

    Gross self-deception unfortunately has made these folks think they are living “disciples” and “followers of Jesus”, but as my wife always candidly points out, most in reality are not really living any holier of lives than anyone else in Christendom. Again, it’s curious to me that they don’t even engage in the most basic function of a disciple, which is to preach the Gospel to every creature. Most don’t even know what the Gospel is.

    These folks also love to put words in our mouth in that we supposedly believe in antinomianism, and a licence to sin…….no, we should live Holy lives honourably before the Lord and in His Grace because He has saved us, but we are just not blind enough to equate our pathetic good works to the infinite and complete purchasing value of Christ’s blood for the sinner.

    I had a friend tell me the other day that a local “disciple” (a friend of his and acquaintance of mine) who believes in and propagates the lordship/calvinism message actually came to his door and told him that “he was in fear of my friend going to hell because he didn’t feel he was bearing enough fruit”. Wow!!! Is that you Lord???? This same acquaintance has also gone on the record and told other “disciples” repeatedly in different settings that “he knows he’s going to be a martyr for Christ”. It’s funny, Peter adopted a similar attitude and such pride was found to precede a fall.

    Like radical systems of thought seem to draw radical personalities, so lordship salvation seems to draw out the extreme religionists and cult like personalities.

    I agree wholeheartedly that we in God’s Grace are to try and pull these folks from the fire, but a lot of them don’t feel the heat and they “like the fire just fine”.

  85. Adam wrote
    “Evidently your friend there has either deceived herself into thinking she doesn’t sin anymore, or she’s stop sinning”

    Yea , its wrong thinking , The loadship salvation crowd need to edit scripture to read I WAS a wretched man since they want to focus on sin for human achievement rather than divine accomplishment through Jesus Christ our Lord

    O wretched man that I am
    ,I am ,I am

    with the mind
    So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God

    Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

  86. Mary, we want to pull them from the fire if we can. We hate the stench of the garment but have compassion on the person ❤

  87. Adam777, 🙂 I had to smile, we’re asking basically the same questions. I ask them chapter and verse for their opinion. I ask them to share the gospel they were saved by. And when one mentioned hating father, mother, etc, leaving, otherwise they weren’t disciples, and therefore not saved, I asked if he had done that yet. Wonder if John MacArthur has? One was incensed when I said it means to prioritize if we are disciples, to love God first, THEN others as ourselves, otherwise, we’d be hating our families, and loving our enemies, what a contradiction that would be.

    As for the stop sinning, I’m not a Dr. Phil fan and I tell them that but I ask them how that’s working for them. One of the words she used in relation to me is ‘cult’. Not a new term. I do get weary of the self-righteousness, but they must get more weary then I, having to live with their man centered gospel 24 hours a day, must be exhausting to try to keep yourself saved…

    One used the Matt 24, endure to the end to be saved. I asked him when he’d know he had made it…. How distressful of a gospel to believe…. sort of like waiting for Purgatory.

  88. Hi Guys,
    We are all surrounded by Charasmatics and Pentecostals I have so been blessed to listen to a series from a grace perspective on all the errors in the movement. We all have work colleagues and neighbours and friends caught up in this false movement and the false gospel they propogate. I think we should equip ourselves so we can help these people see the error they are under, I pray the lord will use us to warn these people some christians who are trapped under these heresies.

    Listen to Pastor Rick Gerhartz on Charasmatic Chaos, its refreshing to listen to this series, rather than listening to John Macarthur the Calvanist doing it. This is Tom Stegalls and Dennis Roskers former church. He did take the name of the series from Macarthur, but he preaches the grace gospel. Enjoy because it has sooooo blessed me, a lot of it we may know, but this pastor has no trouble naming names, and does it so gracefully.

  89. Hey HollyS,

    Evidently your friend there has either deceived herself into thinking she doesn’t sin anymore, or she’s stop sinning……obviously the former is her reality. I would like her to show us where exactly in the Bible it says one has to prove they’re saved to anybody. The Lord knows the heart and reins and that’s all that matters. It really is getting tiresome listening to and dealing with all these self-righteous religious folk. Perhaps this woman should study the Bible on her own and stop letting the so-called prophets of today shape her understanding of Scripture. Does this woman believe we become robots after we get saved? Like the Lord now overrides our free will and the Holy Spirit makes us do the things He wills. Why aren’t we perfect then? Why leave the job half undone? The illogical fallacies these people buy into and then manifest is nauseating. Barf…

    Holly, how much abiding is enough? What about all the heroes of faith that had incidental serious or a pattern of sin and idolatry in their lives??? Again, why do we see so many examples of instantaneous salvation in the New Testament without fruit bearing having any gravity on the eternal life? How do these people argue with John 5:24?

    I’ve taken on the habit of asking three separate things to those who posit the damnable doctrines of loadship salvation, and calvinism. The first is, “show me where in the Bible in context the opinion your offering comes from”, “what is the Gospel?”, and “why haven’t you sold all your possessions as Christ said to do, and gone out and preach the Gospel as the DISCIPLES did?”


  90. I did some more research . I stand corrected , the duggards claim not to part of the quiverfull movement . however they do follow Bill Gothard’s ATI teaching and so does quiver full .
    My exposure to Bill Gothards teaching was indirectly we never went to a ATI seminar but a lot of people in the IFCA assembly we attended did and we fellowshipped with them. I looked through one of Bill Gothards teaching book and didn’t like it at all . It was weird I didn’t like the cartoon type pictures of people . they all looked perfect .
    coming out of my indoctrination I discovered a website about gothard’s teaching of souls who are recovering grace from the legalism . Thats how i knew about the duggarrds association

  91. Holly, if these Duggar’s can’t keep the story straight, is it because they don’t know what the story is?

  92. Yes, the atheists are having a hey day with it, because now Ray Comfort is saying these days were BC and that he was not saved yet at 14 or 15, even though their website says he ‘accepted Christ when he was 7’. Typical load-ship, mess up, and you weren’t saved, always an answer, never the right one.

  93. Holly, I am not surprised to find the Duggars’ are LS. I think that the FRC, the political group from which Josh resigned, was founded by James Dobson.

    Satan loves to use LS to pervert the gospel, and thus keep people lost.

  94. Adam777, I was accused by one of these who insists ‘abiding faith’ and ‘not continuing in sin’ was a part of proving you were saved. She said the kind of teaching (mine) of free grace (she had already equated the term to me), that taught one did not have to show external works or abiding faith was one that cheapened the blood of Jesus Christ.

    That precious blood redeemed me. It sickens me when they use those terms, yet I know the enemy often accuses us of the very thing that person is doing. They want to PROVE they are saved by their wonderful works, yet at the same time accuse others. Jesus KNOWS and wanted us to KNOW we are saved the moment we have believed God’s testimony of His Son (1 John 5:9-13). Sad they cannot know in their system, but I know how destructive that thinking can be if one is saved, and if one is not, it will keep them lost.

  95. The Duggars recently went on a tour with Ray Comfort, going to Washington, D.C. to pass out the Million Dollar tracts that Living Waters puts out. Sad thing was to see Ray interviewing the children on their ‘favorite tracts’ that he put out. They are just as load-ship as Comfort is.

  96. Although, it wasn’t this Plymouth Brethren. Assembly of the Brethren, maybe? Sounds similar, though, with a few things.

  97. I grew up in a Brethren church until 4th grade – yep, like you said, Phil, Bible-something name – “Bible Truth Chapel”. We left due to legalism creeping in more and more. When the church started as a local Bible study, it was sound teaching, my parents said. Then it veered off. I remember the “doilies” my mom and others wore, which I played with during service. It was very traditional, but also somber, from what I remember. We left and went to a much more free grace church for the rest of my growing up years. Which was also noticeably more joyful, too.

  98. Thanks brothers. My experience is with two of these churches. They didn’t call themselves “Brethren” churches, but instead, Bible chapels or something like that. I first encountered their teachings from a radio program that seemed grace alone. I emailed the show and they told me of a couple of churches in my city. I attended both, but one in particular. My impression was that the head covering was the women just sort of went through the motions of remembering to put in on in the sanctuary, but were quick to remove it when the left. It seemed that mothers sometimes had a struggle getting their teenage girls to wear one. Some of the head coverings looked like nothing more than handkerchiefs. It is sad how they could take something Paul said completely out of context (women covering their head) and make a ongoing doctrine out of it–which it was never intended to be. They seemed to be grace alone, but over time I got the impression there were more underlying things to their grace beliefs, like grace plus something. It seemed difficult to get to talk to and know others there. Usually there was no sermon, instead people would just get up during the service and praise God for saving them and what He is doing in their lives. But once there was a sermon a leader gave using the Zacchaeus passage in Luke 19. The leader seemed to use Zacchaeus making restitution plus faith in Jesus as needed for salvation.
    I decided they were legalistic and quit going there.

  99. becarefull there the Plmouth Brethern can be cultish with there docrine . No fellowship including eating or drinking with non belivers . i would assume they mean non alchol with drinking.
    granted here in the states there maybe some churches who have shrugged off their ties to the Irland sect of plymouth brethern.
    Just like any appearnce of evil we are to avoid
    we could attend and proclaim the truth of the gospel at a legalistic church until asked to leave but what about the unsaved who would spot you. how would they know you attend but dont partake of their doctrine ?
    just something i ponder about. i went to a brethern in christ church last sunday and apart from “the bishop” he is called saying good morning. the rest of his sermon i could easily take biblical issue with.
    they dont belive in eternal security . they are also pacifist . so they being pacifist they have to put up with me lol

  100. Phil, I am not very familiar with the Plymouth Brethren, but I think they may be influenced by backdoor LS (life change as evidence, or proof, of salvation).

  101. Phil, we are glad to “see” you again!

  102. I count it pure joy that I am forever secure in Christ thanks to his amazing grace and blessed assurance. As I am sure all of you do also.
    I have been out of touch the lately because my computer needed debugging. So I’m getting myself up on what God is happening here. We have a very blessed board here that gives us a wonderful grace believers fellowship.
    I.like others have said, find myself relying on the flesh against sin and daily living, and find I keep failing. But this thread brings me back to just resting on the One who did it all and paid it all. So I need to just rely on Christ and let Him work in me.
    I hear the sad stories of Ken and others who have been knocked down by Calvinism and Lordship Salvation in churches. My heart goes out to you. It sounds so much like what I went through in an IFCA Bible church that I thankfully left years ago. My prayer is that you will continue to be assured by the certain promises of your salvation which is the work of Christ alone. (Eph 1:12-14) Your salvation is not dependent on your works and Christian progress.

    You mention CCM. There have been some contemporary Christian songs that have touched me. But it seems like every church service has gone rock and roll, and I am so turned off by it. Do they just think this is the only way to draw the under 25 crowd into church? Whatever happened to choirs? What’s happened to all those hymns of praise,grace and assurance? Is the CCM guitars, drums, amplifiers, and shaking supposed to be part of this MEGA “purpose driven church” that Rick Warren started that we need to “get connected to?” This is one reason I am not attending any church, along with that they all seem to have some subtle forms of legalism. The only church that I know of that hasn’t gone this rock and roll route is these Brethren Churches (I think they may be Plymouth Brethern). But the ones I know of have their own form of legalism in that women are supposed to wear a head covering in church.

    I think we have more than just a board or forum here: we have a fellowship of believers here on expreacherman.

  103. Jackie,

    You summed it all up perfectly in that last comment. Keep putting on the armour of our King since heresy abounds and our adversary never sleeps.

  104. Johninc and LukeNC,

    A brief review of Bill Gothard’s website reveals the typical calvinistic and lordship salvation tones when it comes to his understanding and teaching of God’s Grace. In fact, he even quotes the heretic john piper on one of his pages when speaking to how “some” would abuse Grace in the Bible by separating salvation from Christian living.

    Bill Gothard is to be marked and avoided.

    How the road seems to be getting narrower and narrower.

  105. Jackie Garcia


    Wow. My heart shatters just thinking about the multitudes that will be turned from the Throne come Judgement Day. I desire that for not a single individual made in the image of God, but Scripture says that many are on the broad way currently. The Gospel truly is a rock of offense — stripping its believers of all self-righteousness and reliance on self. It’s offensive to many to think that they are without resources to save themselves or keep themselves saved. The Gospel is for the humble, those understanding the immense worth in Jesus Christ’s redemptive work, and those who reject all dead works for salvation — it’s more than enough and more than what we need to enter the Kingdom. Even then, there are believers who understand the Gospel of Grace and yet give a free pass to ministers who deliberately corrupt it. It’s devastating and even more confusing.

    Resting in my Savior,

  106. I pray for the dugards that they see the pervsion bewitching spell a perverted gospel and doctrine does. that the healing power of Jesus finished work on the cross would become a reality . That the light of the glorious gospel would shine unto them.
    it is very very difficult to come out from among them it means loosing friends and familly for the truth of the gospel and enduring shunning and ridicual from the religous crowd whom were once friends

  107. the duggards follow the quiver full movement wich is basically a bill gothard copy of a copy. its all works for salvation.
    the pharasies are known for being child molesters acording to the research i have done. the pharasiees are a sick twisted corupted . perverted souls. Thats why Jesus called them what he did and berated them.
    If you take the pharasiees out of The red letter words of Jesus there is not much left.
    when a soul’s theology and doctrine is focused on sin instead of Jesus that is exactly what you get more sin.
    I am sadly not suprised by the duggards and also the timming of the media to bring this out now since it was known since 2006 .

  108. Luke, I don’t know anything about the Duggars’ beliefs, but I did find this quote from Josh:

    “I sought forgiveness from those I had wronged and asked Christ to forgive me and come into my life. In my life today, I am so very thankful for God’s grace, mercy, and redemption.”

    My comment: This makes it sound like he wasn’t a believer at the time of his offenses. The inference is that a Christian could not have possibly done these acts. We know that Christians are capable of any sin.

    Secondly, it shows confusion over how one receives Christ as Savior. It is not by asking for forgiveness and asking Christ to come into one’s life.

    Third, the Duggar’s appear to be followers of Bill Gothard, who taught his dogma as being tantamount to the word of God.

  109. I haven’t seen anything on this site but in light of the recent 19 kids ‘scandal’ has anyone examined the faith claims of the Duggar clan? I saw somewhere that they were independent baptist. I assume they are another one of those in the works salvation camp but was wondering if anyone here had researched them.

  110. Hey Jackie,

    You are exactly correct. The Bible says the condition for salvation is belief in the Son of God and His finished work. John 3:16. NOT following, promising, surrendering, contract negotiations, etc. That is discipleship, which is costly, and the spirit of it can be very accurately summed up in the words of John the Baptist:
    ” He must increase, but I must decrease”. John 3:30

    Can you imagine these folks standing before El Elyon (God Most High) in eternity one day and saying to Him – the Creator of all things: ” Your Son’s blood was good, although it was wanting in my sight, BUT, “I” made up for it’s inability to save me completely by following, surrendering, repenting, turning, promising, etc”.

    I shudder at the very thought Jackie.

  111. Adam,

    That’s the very thing that baffles me as well. I behold the blood of the Lamb and could do nothing but tremble with awe and great gratitude. Far be it from us that we ever forget the exorbitant cost of our redemption. Unfortunately for some, the blood of Jesus Christ is clearly insufficient to save sinners from the wrath of God. “You HAVE TO follow Jesus,” “You HAVE TO commit your life to Christ,” “You HAVE TO turn/repent from your sins!” These very sayings of modern evangelicalism trodden the Son underfoot. The Gospel is so incredibly simple and easy to believe, but because of the pride in every man, the Gospel was complicated and many have since been led down the broad way of destruction — the blind leading the blind. I pray that the Lord may open many eyes to the Truth before the Day comes.

    “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)


    Yup, Hillsong is bad news. Flee, flee, flee, farrr from them!

  112. Hillsong= run forest run

  113. Hillsong = Run Forest Run , errors on many levels , Prosperity Gospel , Cult like leadership , mysticism , False Gospel , just for starters
    if you google Hillsong False Teaching it is sad

  114. Jesus’ Blood is Priceless.

    It more than confounds me that mere sinners would ever intimate or equate anything they do or have to offer God with the infinite value of His Son’s precious blood. Such pattern of thought or conclusion could only come from the pride filled depths of hell.

    Leviticus 17:11:
    ” For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul”.

    Hebrews 9:22
    ” And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission”.

    Blood is the only thing of value in God’s economy for salvation, not pathetic or contrived works of supposed righteousness. Woe to those who would trust in anything other than His blood, and His blood alone. The imputation and appropriation of His righteousness to us and our account by trusting in His Son’s finished work is the only hope.

  115. Right, Holly. I’m sorry, I guess I’m still struggling with the word “surrender.” It carries so much baggage for me coming out the lies of LS. We are all trying to surrender to our Lord, by His grace, through bringing Him into our everyday decisions, abiding in His Word, praying to Him in all things. And in doing all of these things, we’re reminded that our Jesus has paid the highest price for our sin penalty and we do such things out of the love and gratitude in our hearts for Him.

  116. I truly marvel that these people think they can do this, and also that they have the audacity to sing their alms in public. And if they did submit/ surrender/ yield, they will do it with His help, through acknowledging Him in more of our ways, spending time in His Word so we can gain knowledge of the One who did it all…

  117. Check out these lyrics from Newsboys’ song “Born Again:”

    “Giving Him the best of
    Everything that’s left of
    The life inside this man
    I’ve been born again”

    Yes, because we wonderful humans have something to offer Jesus in our dead in sin lives. -_________- NO! Jesus wants to give us a new life, He wants to quicken our spirit with His. This is the same “surrender your life to Jesus” garbage that is being peddled today. Barf.

  118. Thank you for the sound advice, everyone! Yea, I may just have to cancel on the witnesses and give them a Shea tract to read. Those types of witnessing conversations can get so draining. I praise God that He’s growing my heart for the lost through abiding in His Word, but I can get too ambitious sometimes. I always have to remember 2 Corinthians 3:5 in these sorts of situations. Completely agree that CCM pumps out a false gospel. Someone on my Facebook timeline just posted these lyrics from Hillsong’s Aftermath song:

    “And in that moment of glorious surrender,
    was the moment you broke the chains in me.
    Lifted out of the ashes, I am found in the aftermath.”

    What does that even mean?!?!?!? And if I didn’t know any better, this is LS to the very core. My faith in Christ is what breaks the chains in me.

  119. Jackie
    What Holly said
    Please be careful

  120. Jackie, just like “christian” bookstores reflect mainstream counterfeit gospels so does CCM. It oozes the mainstream LS flavor of the day. They are some older songs I don’t mind but like John I don’t go out of my way for it. There is also a mindset and catering to the flesh that the music itself can have on us because it affects our emotions as well.

    Jim F

  121. Jackie, if I might answer on the 1 John, yes, that is why it was written, so we would know whether we were in fellowship or not, and so that our joy would remain full.

  122. Jackie – I never suggest new believers contend with Jehovah’s witnesses or any others, without a seasoned believer with them. Not that I think you are not already doing wonderfully with the Word. But the disciples were even sent out two by two. Don’t be alone if you can help it in these situations. On this site you can find Ray Stanford’s witnessing handbook, be ready with the Scriptures he provides for Jehovah’s witnesses and have another sound believer with you, or do it in writing via email or something.

  123. Curtis, that’s a great passage! Thank you! Here’s another question that’s a bit off topic, but how do I know when I’m in and out of fellowship with the Lord? Is that what 1 John is for? Thanks!

  124. Here is another one for you Jackie . a JW will most likely bring up the trinity
    here is a practical way to show the Tri Vinity .

    O l
    Nothing Unity / God
    Nothing split by Unity is Phi, the constant of creation

    Only “tri-viding” the whole preserves the relationship to the whole

    And so it is with our understanding of God, that we are created in His image. Not by dividing the whole, but only by tri-viding the whole does each piece retain its unique relationship to the whole. Only here do we see three that are two that are one.

    Jesus, the Son of God and the Son of Man The Book of John begins with these words that capture the essence of this:

    In the beginning was the Word,
    and the Word was with God,
    and the Word was God.

    Jesus, in John 14:9, expressed a similar thought:

    Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.

    Here the human Jesus (the Son of Man) is to the divine Jesus (the Son of God) as the divine Jesus (the Son of God) is to God (the Father or whole).

  125. I do enjoy very little CC music these days . There seams to be an agenda going on in the back round with it.
    Since I have been set free from my bondage of indoctrination I actually like long periods of silence pondering things .
    If I had to pick music I like classical , the Old school classical . It amazes me how that God gave talent to souls to put music together like that

  126. Catch a JW with their own Translation . I’m looking forward to my next knock on door to try this out . I wouldn’t come off of this or let them try and control the conversation .
    the more schooled JW will use a KJV so they will be harder , but stick to the divinity of Jesus and eternal life.
    a JW is basically preaching the wrong gospel to the wrong people at the wrong time . They don’t believe they have eternal life even though their own translation says they do when they believe

    This is were the KJV only-ism miss it were God say’s he will preserve his word. as hard as they try with a cursed translation as NWLT there still is enough of Gods word preserved that they are without excuse

    so that all may honor the Son
    me has everlasting life
    23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.+ 24 Most truly I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes the One who sent me has everlasting life,+ and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life.+

    that all men should honour the Son
    believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life
    Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
    Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

  127. Jackie, I’m not a big CC music fan. I don’t object to it categorically, but I don’t go out of my way to listen to it.

    Witnessing to JW folks is hard, because they will often go back to their handlers for advice. My wife has been talking to one, off and on. She zoned in on the gospel, using Ron Shea’s booklet.

  128. John, I assume you avoid all CC music in general? Thanks for the response. I have one more question. I came across two Jehovah’s Witnesses on my way back from class today and told them I’d be interested in a study to share the Gospel with them. Not sure if I did the right thing since I know they come packed with an arsenal of proof texts and emphasize only discussing topics they want to, which sounds like a dead-end to me. I’m just trying to be faithful to the Great Commission, but haven’t really found the area of witnessing I most excel at.

  129. Jackie, I would assume most CC music has LS themes.

  130. John, that would make sense. Oh dear, a poor commendation from Jesus is the last thing I would want to hear. When I think of such teachers, this verse comes to mind. “As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.” (Proverbs 26:11) A slight tangential question.. But do you screen contemporary Christian music for biblical soundness? It’s unbelievable how heavy the LS is in a lot of the songs that are most popular among Christians. It gets wearisome at times testing all things against Scripture. :/

  131. Jackie, I don’t know. I can’t see someone getting a great commendation at the judgment seat of Christ for teaching an accursed gospel.

  132. John, yep a man-centered gospel to the core. Do they not see that? The true Gospel in the Bible doesn’t allow room for boasting or hyper-focus of self. Good grief. John, I’m not sure if I’ve read this while perusing expreacherman, but is there a specific consequence that a believer receives who initially believed the Gospel of Grace, but later embraced a false gospel of works (LS, etc.) and propagate it? One basically put themselves under the law again at that point, right? Thanks.

  133. Jackie, what a sad and amazing quote from the World Race guy. He’s even making up scripture. Paul never said “test yourself to see if you are really a true Christian.” And, he never would have advocated testing yourself by your works and your commitment.

    This is a man-centered gospel.

  134. (I was trying to go for a pseudonym “savedbygrace” for the sake of anonymity, but I’m ok with going by my first name of “Jackie” I used when I first commented on this post. Lol!)

    Adam, Curtis:

    Great responses, brothers. Thank you for the encouragement and the reminder that our battle for the true Gospel is for the glory and praise of our Lord. So MANY have fallen from grace and have insisted on “working” to help Christ save them or keep them saved. Seems like they’ve accepted Him as Helper, but as Savior? Only the Lord knows the heart. I just came from a really refreshing time of prayer with the Lord and was just saturating myself in the powerful and simple truths of the Gospel. Let me tell you, I was an absolute mess of tears and fell flat on my face mid-prayer in gratitude to my Savior for His free gift of salvation. I was reminded yet again of the TRUE freedom in Christ those of us who have trusted in Christ as Savior presently possess. I tell myself that I was saved last summer, but it honestly feels like I only believed the true Gospel when I first visited this site which was maybe two weeks ago. I don’t know, I just don’t feel like I’m striving anymore, but resting — resting in the finished work of my beautiful Savior Jesus Christ. I simply don’t know how anyone who has fallen for the false gospel of LS/Calvinism could ever find true rest in their walks. I just don’t — especially when the focus is “following Jesus,” “surrendering your all,” “putting Christ on the throne of your life” to be saved. It doesn’t add up because it’s an accursed gospel and my spirit confirms that. A professing Christian from Cru just came back from a year long missions trip called World Race. I was doing some research earlier about this missions organization and found the blog of someone who participated a few years ago. His words sickened me and prompted me to pray earnestly to the Lord. Loadship through and through. Here’s what he said:

    “Christianity in the Bible is a complete ABANDONMENT TO YOUR OWN WILL! (See Luke 9:23-25, Luke 14:27-28, Mark 8:34-36, Matthew 10:38-39, Romans 12:1-2) If your life hasn’t been RADICALLY CHANGED by Christ, then in the words of Paul, I ask you: to TEST YOURSELF to see if you are really a true Christian (2 Cor. 13:5). I fear the words of Paul are true of many American “Christians”: lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, HOLDING TO A FORM OF GODLINESS BUT DENYING IT’S POWER. (2 Tim. 3:1-9) Many who are opposed to AIM don’t like the idea that their children are abandoning their superficial American “Christianity” to live out the living, redeeming Christianity.”

    “So what does Jesus have to say: “He who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me.” (Matt 10:34-37, Luke 14:25) What else does He say: “GO! And make disciples of all nations.” (Matt 28:19-20). Following Jesus will make enemies within your own family. (Matt 10:34-36). If you are going on the World Race to obey the Great Commission and make disciples, then the cult hysteria is just a scheme of Satan to keep you back.”


    This will be my last long post. Lol! But the excerpts I shared from the professing Christians within Cru and this statement just gives testament to the dire condition modern Christianity finds itself in. I seriously don’t get how some of these people expect to fulfill the Great Commission whilst preaching a false gospel. Makes me want to go shake people out of their spiritual slumber. 😦

  135. For the wages of sin is death
    romans 6:23Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    The wages/penalty for is is death !!!! The penalty for sin is NOT repenting of sin, Turning from sin The penalty for sin is DYING for your sin , Jesus paid for our sin debt past present and future .

    I Love How the word of God is Quick to tell us without hesitation BUT The GIFT of God is eternal life.
    The wages of sin is death BUT God has taken care of your separation In His dear son Jesus who PAID your sin debt , Your sin debt was taken care of before even the world itself was formed . Will You receive this Free GIFT by simply believing ? and be free to Live

    Religion comes along and makes something so simple a child can understand and messes it all up

  136. SavedbyGrace,

    Keep fighting the battle for our Lord. Truth is that the more you go into the rabbit hole the more you will find that the true Biblical salvation message is not popular. Too often you will often find that these folks can regurgitate the newest slant or opinion from the modern day “prophet’s” latest books, but very seldom can they ever back the opinion by utilizing properly contextualized Scripture.

    Something to ask these folks (if you didn’t already) is where in the Bible does it say “repenting of sin” is a condition of salvation? In addition, how does “repenting of sin” help satisfy a death payment outstanding for the sinner? Have these would be disciples and fruit inspectors repented of all their sin? Trying and good intentions don’t count…..plus, they’ve already sinned so it’s too late for “trying”.

    I second Johninc’s comment in that I too do not know of any modern day “mainstream” preacher that is not a false.

    Thirdly, in addition to confessing Christ as Lord (He IS Lord and that’s why He qualifies as Saviour – “IS” vs “MAKE” is the implication) as these mini-me(s) so insist one must do for salvation (in addition to the other conditions they attach to the Gospel), you should ask them then why a believer doesn’t have to confess and acknowledge all of Christ’s other rightful titles in the Bible. Such as:

    – Jesus IS our Advocate/Intercessor (Malakh Melitz)
    1 John 2:1-2

    – Jesus IS the Alpha and Omega (aleph v’Tav)
    Revelation 1:10-11(a)

    – Jesus IS the Anointed One (Christ, Messiah – Ha-Mashiach)
    John 1:41

    – Jesus IS the Bridegroom (Chatan)
    John 3:28-30

    – Jesus IS the Deliverer (HaPalat)
    Psalm 18:2, Romans 11:26

    – Jesus IS the Door (HaSha’ar)
    John 10:7-9

    – Jesus IS the Faithful and True One (Ne’eman V’Yashar)
    Revelation 19:11

    – Jesus IS the Great High Priest (HaKohen HaGadol)
    Hebrews 3:1, Psalm 110:4

    – Jesus IS THE I AM THAT I AM (Ehyeh asher Ehyeh)
    John 8:57-58

    – Jesus IS The Judge of the Living and the Dead
    (Shofet haChayim v’hametim)
    Acts 10:42-43

    – Jesus IS the King of Israel (Melkh Yisrael)
    Mark 15:32

    – Jesus IS the Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Ha-Aryei Mishevet Yehudah)
    Revelation 5:5-7

    – Jesus IS the Mediator (Melitz Echad)
    1 Timothy 2:5

    – Jesus IS the Morning Star (Kokhav Hashachar)
    Revelation 22:16

    – Jesus IS the Mystery of God (Sod HaElohim)
    Colossians 2:2

    – Jesus IS the Prince of Life (Sar haChayim)
    Acts 3:14-15

    The list goes on for the names of Christ the King in the Bible. This is just a very brief list as I didn’t want to make the post nauseatingly long. Question is again, why do these folks not confess and acknowledge all these other titles the Son rightfully has? Truth is they only use “Lord” so they can sneakily inject works into the truth and the Gospel.

  137. savedbygrace

    Very enlightening and insightful comments, John. Thank you. You’re absolutely right. I never had a good feeling going into this group, but as a total babe in Christ, I was unable to discern that the Spirit was warning me that false teachings were rife and that the gospel they peddle is works-laden. There is this stifling feeling of judgement and spiritual comparison within the group and I know that it’s due to the heavy Calvinism/LS influence in their teachings. This group has provided me fellowship, but it unfortunately wasn’t in the spirit of the true Gospel. I have found maybe three people who are free gracers through and through — there are over 300 people in this group. I don’t want to abandon the community before I’m able to reach more people with the truth of the Gospel and the lies of Calvi/LS/Reformed teachings. I’m more than willing, by God’s grace, to speak to whoever is willing to listen. These are extremely dark times we’re living in. Maranatha.

  138. Ron Shea has a book out in draft form that poses the hypothetical question from God: “why are you righteous enough to stand in my presence?”

    One of the WRONG answers is:

    “By His grace, Jesus Christ is transforming my life! I’m getting better every day! It’s not my righteousness, it’s His grace working through me!”

  139. savedbygrace, this is the first I have heard of “Andrean” submission versus “Pauline” submission. It is also false teaching, as you have recognized.

    Believing in Jesus as Savior includes knowing that He is God. However, that does not necessarily “spur” any type of submission. This is just another way to package the false Calvinist doctrine of perseverance of the saints (aka Lordship “salvation” or works for salvation).

    And, almost every major preacher that I know of is a false teacher. These Calvinists are into hero worship. They love the words of men. There is not a single book in the Bible by C.S. Lewis, Jonathan Edwards, Piper, Chan, Tim, or Jeremy.

    I would RUN away from this group.

  140. savedbygrace


    Here are some excerpts from a conversation with two professing Christians within Cru (I was contending for the Gospel of Grace while they were defending ls):

    “This doesn’t go against grace. You say Jeremy and Tim believe in grace. I think they do. But you won’t call them false preachers. But I can tell you that chances are they believe in what CS lewis and Francis chan and John Piper all teach. (This is in reference to a Gospel presentation given last Sunday at Reality LA church where the pastor basically preached: “If you’ve never trusted in Jesus Christ before, and if you’re questioning that and you’re feeling that weight of guilt, what better time than right now to say, “Lord, I’m Yours. I surrender my life to you. I repent, I turn from my sin and I trust You. You are a better Lord than I am. You are the King. I receive forgiveness of sin. Fill me with Your Spirit that I would live a transformed life.” Pastors claim to believe in faith alone, but are heavily oriented towards Calvinism.)

    “And we at Cru do too. Even the people that speak at real life have been greatly influenced by CS Lewis. So unless all of them and Tim and Jeremy are also false preachers…CS Lewis and Francis chan and John Piper aren’t
    Jonathan Edwards, one of the greatest Christians in american history, also believed in it. So you’re probably misinformed Jackie, because you literally called every major pastor in the country a false preacher. They’re not big for no reason. And they don’t preach a false gospel because if you do look at what they teach it’s grace through faith.”

    “I’m curious what someone like Francis Chan or John Piper would say submission is at the moment of salvation: Andrean submission (aspect of faith) or Pauline submission (obedience and work).”
    I think I’ve been quite clear that the act of belief is the only act required to receive the gift of salvation. But just as the act of believing in Jesus involves a turning away from sin in order to choose Jesus, so also belief in who Jesus is as Lord involves on some level an acknowledgement of His rightful place in your life. It’s a logical conclusion of the kind of faith in Hebrews 11:1–deep conviction that Jesus is Lord and was raised from the dead. If you believe in Him, it locally follows that you believe He has a right to control your life. That acceptance of His rightful place is one aspect of the belief outlined in 1 John that saves. It’s a fundamental thing to believe about Jesus.”

    “When I say “submission” I mean believing that Jesus has a right to control one’s life–it’s what one confesses in 1 John: “Jesus is Lord.” That means Lord of all things: creation and yourself. It’s a fundamental aspect of His identity. If you don’t believe that,
    You believe In a false Jesus.
    When I say “submission” I am not referring to obedience nor to complete acquiescence of the will. That is something that is learned and practiced throughout one’s life having already been saved. Submission as often described by Paul, the act of submitting, is done post-reception I the Holy Spirit. What I am describing (“Andrean” submission, if you will) is a correct belief of Jesus’s identity, which will spur the “Pauline” submission. But Andrean submission is a facet of faith, not a work.”


    How quick these two were to jump to the defense of false teachers. Truly, our battle isn’t against flesh and blood, but against the dark spiritual forces that be. The spiritual bondage is strong and so very deep. I was attacked with walls of text and very seldom did they cite Scripture. Instead, I was mocked, told I believe in a wrong Jesus, claimed I’m on a witch hunt, and ignorant. It should fill us with incredible concern that these “teachers” are as popular as they are. It’s definitely not the simple and true Gospel of our Lord Jesus they’re teaching and using to attract others. It all makes sense how appealing Calvinism is to the flesh. And this isn’t everything that was mentioned. Truly, this verse: “In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.” (Pro 10:19) is very much applicable in this situation. This is the fruit of what’s being taught in my campus ministry. Terrifying. Absolutely terrifying.

  141. Mary, Satan is indeed working hard to keep people from understanding and believing the gospel – see Matthew 13:19, Mark 4:15, Luke 8:12, and 2 Corinthians 4:4.

  142. Jackie
    That doctrinal quote is expressing the ministries inability (biblical ignorance) to distinguish between saving faith (Justification) and Living faith (sanctification).

    as for the campus ministry definition of repentance once again the ministry is showing its biblical ignorance and with to many words

    In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin
    Pro 10:19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

    I agree with Holly on heart and mind also would like to ad

    when a ministry or person attempts to use the heart/ mind as separate and not interchangeable to me its a spiritual mind control tactic that keeps a soul confused and coming back for more . It was used on me in the IFCA fundamentalist assembly by laymen and leaders.

  143. I am in Australia, a few years ago, I visited Times Square church in New York, David Wilkerson’s church (pentecostal) , he died in a car accident, i hope he is in a good place today. Lets not assume the charistmatic and pentecostals are saved.

    As i have said before the tragedies of the day are dying under a false gospel, satan is working hard to keep people deceived and get them to do their part of salvation (being religious).

  144. I agree with you completely John. What other kind of belief is there? They like to distinguish between the heart and the mind. Do we not believe with our mind? Do we also not believe with our heart? Both are interchangeable in Scripture. I get tired of them playing with words to create confusion.

  145. Jackie, there are several things about the statement from the director of your campus ministry that stick out:

    First, I don’t know what the “debate” is to which he is referring. My guess is that it the debate between the gospel of grace and the false gospel of Lordship “salvation” (LS). If so, there is no debate. One is truth, the other a satanic lie.

    I also don’t like what he says about “mental assent.” That is almost always code for “believing in Jesus is not sufficient to have eternal life.”

    Also, “trust in Jesus as Savior and leader of their lives” makes it sound like both are necessary to have eternal life. That is also a lie. We receive eternal life when we believe in Christ alone as Savior.

    Last, his analogy about Repentance did not really help clarify things.

  146. Johninnc – that’s true also, we have that instinct to ‘earn’ things. Earn someone’s trust, Earn our living, Earn someone’s love, Earn someone’s friendship, Earn someone’s respect, etc.

  147. Mary – I also think most often Lordship appeals to people’s fears of not really being saved, and for awhile, gives them some assurance as long as they see progression in their lives (they’re attending church, they are ‘doing’ for the Lord, they’re serving in the church, they become a member, etc. etc.). After a time, the busyness no longer keeps them from a spirit of fear as they begin to see they are still in the flesh, and after all, it’s only natural to wonder whether you have done enough, or are really ‘good enough’…

    Just more religion. Some of the holier than thou ones make a lifetime job out of becoming a mini-accuser of the brethren. The Paul Washer’s, Ray Comfort’s, John MacArthur’s, Voddie Baucham’s, Leonard Ravenhill’s, Dave Wilkerson’s etc. of this world have convinced people to ‘examine themselves to see if they are saved’….

  148. Hey John,

    Thanks for so much for sharing your testimony with all of us here. I was ensnared in LS perhaps a month after I was saved last summer. Earlier today I was speaking with my younger sister that LS appeals to the default setting of the flesh which is to do, do, do and work, work, work. I often wondered to myself why I could never experience true rest in walk, and it was because I kept looking to my flesh trying to hone in on certain sins and trying — within my own power — to curb, control, and eliminate them. And every time I thought I had gotten a specific sin under control, another difficult sin or two would come to mind and realize that I was still without victory as I was the day before. There really isn’t anything good about the flesh and LS caused me to look at my flesh with hyper-focus coupled with confusion as to why I was getting knocked down by sin over and over again. Of course, this is when serious doubt of my salvation kicked in, but then I would gain some victory in the flesh. I later fell back into sin with doubt in my salvation. It’s a vicious and ugly cycle which gets us to become forgetful and ignorant that Jesus Christ has paid for each of our sins. He only wants us to rest with joy and victory in His finished work that has been applied to all who believe in Him. What a wonderful God. John, praise God that He has delivered you from this false gospel. I pray that more professing believers will be brought to your post here and this blog to learn more about the truly freeing power of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Resting in my Savior,

    As an aside, could you please take a look a statement the director from my campus ministry made? Thank you! The LS is really subtle, but I’m hoping you could pick up on a few things I wasn’t able to. Thanks again, brother.

    “Okay you guys a few thoughts for you. First of all this is a very legitimate and important debate. Christians have understood these things slightly differently. Both sides of the debate would affirm that faith alone saves. The question then becomes what is the content of the faith that saves. Both sides would likely affirm that simple mental assent for instance is not a faith that saves. I understand repentance to be a component of saving faith or built into it if you will. Think of it this way as one transfers their trust to Jesus it’s like when you pour a glass of water from one glass into another. The water leaving the one glass is like repentance and the filling is like the trusting. Both are part and parcel of saving faith. So when I share the gospel I do call people to trust in Jesus as savior and leader of their lives.”

  149. Mary, I think you’re right. When we feel alienated from God, our natural instinct is to try to fix it ourselves. LS appeals to this inclination.

  150. Hey Johnnic,
    We are about the same age, I’ve only had my eyes open to this false gospel in the last few years too. How many more do we have to wake up to this deception we have all been under.

    Lordship sounds so religious and appeals to our flesh.

  151. John – this is a really good article. It’s convinced me I must write about the Jesus DVD and their gospel at the end. How will people be saved by seeing the life of Jesus and hearing a false gospel?

  152. Ken, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    You said: But if my track-record post-faith-in-Christ determines whether I’m justified, again, I am without hope.

    My comment: Exactly! That is the same for all of us. Great addition.

  153. kenpierce1630

    Very nicely done; I LOVE this piece because it’s so completely on target.

    Raised on a steady diet of Presbyterian 5-point TULIPism, I left my family’s church over conviction that the doctrine of Limited Atonement cannot be reconciled to the plain testimony of Scripture. “Whosoever” just has to mean “whosoever,” or the God of Scripture is a fast-talking scheister (e.g., Jn 3:16).

    But He is not. He is TRUTH. Sola gratia by sola fide leaves no room for faith + my disgraceful post-salvation sevice record. Whether for justification, or for subsequent assurance, I can add nothing meritorious, because I have nothing. If not by grace purchased at Golgotha, then I am a distant Goy, without hope.

    I’m all for making Jesus Lord of my life. The only way that happens, though, is by the Spirit’s enablement. And truth be told, I’m terrible at letting Him stay on the throne–even though I’m redeemed & indwelt. As bad as I am at it now, letting Christ rule at all was entirely impossible prior to the Spirit’s taking up residence in me when I trusted Jesus for everlasting life. That cannot be a condition for justification, or I’m doomed. Now, it’s totally possible for Jesus to be Lord of my life, sometimes…when I’m walking with the Spirit. But if my track-record post-faith-in-Christ determines whether I’m justified, again, I am without hope. Thankfully, it’s not my faithfulness at issue concerning my justification, pre- or post-salvation; it’s Messiah’s.

    “Amen, amen, I am telling you all, the one trusting in Me HAS forever-life unending.” ( Jn 6:47) Well thank God for that good news! Workin’hard to get to heaven? I love Alan Jackson, too, but that’s a gospel for suckers!