Romans 1:16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
One of the restaurants that my wife and I frequent received a recent score from the health inspector of 87.5%. We figured it was an anomaly, but after suffering from a weekend stomach bug, I’m not so sure.
Anytime an institution deviates from standards that have been set for our health and well-being, the consequences can be serious – even deadly. This is particularly applicable to “churches” purporting to represent the Word of God.
To that end, I did an internet search under “church marquee sayings” and found quite a few that confuse, or misrepresent the gospel. Following is a sample. My comments are in parentheses.
1. Belief in God will not earn you a spot in Heaven. Obedience will.
(Eternal life is never earned. It is received by grace through faith in Christ. The only context in which this saying is accurate is if they mean by obeying (believing) the gospel.)
2. You cannot have a testimony without going through a test.
(Our Christian testimony should focus on the gospel and how we came to believe it.)
3. If you don’t have enough of God in your heart to bring you to church, I doubt you have enough of God in your heart to get you to Heaven.
(Implies that eternal life is earned by church attendance.)
4. Turn or Burn
(Implies that turning from some behavior is required to have eternal life.)
5. If you don’t go to God’s house, what makes you think He will take you to His????
(Implies that eternal life is earned by church attendance.)
6. Need a new life? God accepts trade-ins.
(We receive eternal life when we believe in Jesus as Savior. This slogan could be easily misinterpreted to imply that one must give up something to receive the free gift of eternal life.)
7. Famous last words: “I’ll get right with God later.”
(Implies that one must do something (such as “turning from sin,” or “putting Christ on the throne of his life”) in order to receive the free gift of eternal life.)
8. To have your name written in the Book of Life, you must ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins .
(The Bible never conditions receiving eternal life on asking for forgiveness.)
9. FAITH – Forsaking All I Trust Him.
(Could be accurate, if they mean forsaking all other confidences, and trusting in Christ alone for eternal life. But, this could also be misconstrued to mean that one must forsake sins, etc. to receive eternal life.)
10. If you don’t try hard enough then you made the devil happy .
(Could be interpreted to mean that erternal life is earned by self-effort, or that the Christian life is lived that way.)
11. Good works are the fruit, not the root, of salvation.
(Implies that good works are automatic in the lives of believers, which is not scriptural.)
12. By perseverance — the snail reached the ark.
(Teaches that we receive eternal life by our perseverance versus by God’s preservation.)
13. Law says, “Do, and you will live.” Grace says, “Live, and you will do.”
(Implies that good works are automatic in those that have eternal life.)
14. Jesus Christ came to make bad people good.
(Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. When we believe in Jesus as Savior, we receive His imputed perfection. One has to be perfect to get into Heaven. Otherwise, how good is good enough?)
15. Try Jesus. If you don’t like Him, the devil will always take you back.
(Wrongly implies that one can lose eternal life.)
The one component that each of the above church marquee sayings has in common is a lack of clear focus on the gospel.
If you have been being fed false or confusing messages such as the ones above, is it time to reassess your spiritual diet?
If you would like to know how to have eternal life click here: The Gospel
Here’s a sign: “Repentance doesn’t save Bokkko Haram. It won’t save you”
Thanks Johninnc. It’s really very disturbing that it doesn’t dawn on them what they are doing. Kind of like what the Pharisees did with Jesus. Who are you? Aren’t you just a Carpenter? Isn’t this your mother and brothers and sisters here? And they were offended?
Seems like an age old story 🙂
Holly, many of the things that you are pointing out are what is referred to as “credentialism”. We see that trotted out in other areas as well (often as substitutes for scientific inquiry or sound economics).
I remember discussing the false doctrine of LS with a co-worker a few years back. He responded with “so and so says it’s not faith and works, it’s faith that works. And he’s a pastor.”
Chas, I started a comment to you, but must have erased it before I could come back with this excerpt. I had re-read an article of mine today, and what you said reminded me of this portion:
If you find yourself in a public disagreement with them, be prepared in the Word and prayer. You may find them unkind and very condescending — commending themselves in things such as these;
1) how many years they have been a believer
2) how much education, or which degrees they may have (while asking what your education is)
3) how many times they have read through the Bible
4) or which books they own and have read
5) church history that they know, and church fathers they have studied
6) theologians they have read
7) how large their library is, etc. (lots more I could add, but I’m sure some of you have experienced it).
Don’t fall for it, the Bible warns about these types.
For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. 2 Cor 10:12
chas, I know what you mean. God’s love for us is why He gave His only begotten Son (John 3:16), not our love for Him. Some people talk about their great love, or great faith, along with the standards they have created to measure those things, in order to build themselves up, relative to others.
I wonder about people who put their “love for the Lord” up front, or talk about it all the time. It’s like they’re trying to convince themselves. Same with people who go on about the “quality” of their faith, how big it is, how yours isn’t enough if you don’t [fill in the blank] to their approval. The object of their faith is–ultimately–themselves.
People I’ve met that have genuine faith in the Lord tend to talk about the Lord Himself, especially what He has done for them (and for you). They build you up instead of knocking you down.
Holly, you said: “These ravening wolves don’t even look so much like sheep to me.”
Very good point!
Interesting timing on your wife’s comment. Evidently one of the women in my Bible study and Fellowship group on FB had a similar thing with her pastor. She hadn’t been attending because of the teachings, and he reached out to them, and then posted something almost identical on his page.
These ravening wolves don’t even look so much like sheep to me.
Jason, very funny!
My faith can’t get me to church on Sunday. Only Stockholm Syndrome can.
My wife saw this one yesterday on Facebook. It was posted by another gentleman whose Facebook profile says “Just a southern guy who loves the Lord and has been called into ministry…”:
“If your faith can’t get you to church on Sunday, I doubt if it will get you into heaven”
-Dr. Adrian Rogers
My comment: Just another twist on signs 3 and 5 from the above article. There is absolutely no constructive point to this statement by the late Adrian Rodgers. The fact that it was posted by someone else who is at seminary studying to go into ministry is appalling. The blind, leading the blind, leading the blind.
Chas, there seem to be a lot of things that are lost on people like Womack.
Chas, you are right about the jets. These guys can’t really fly commercial – you know, with the persecution and all (sarcasm intended).
So Womack doesn’t believe 1 Cor. 12:11…
“But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.” (Bold, mine.)
And in vs. 30…
“All do not speak with tongues, do they?”
The concept of different functions and different ministries–“not one member, but many”–is lost on people like Womack.
From what I’ve seen (TBN experience here) TV ministries tend to be about the bucks because doing broadcast TV is very expensive. Even more expensive than huge buildings.
Then there’s private jets. REALLY expensive. If a “ministry” has a private jet, you’ll know where a lot of the money is going.
These people can even flip the script to make me feel like I am being contentious by correcting them. They are always empowering things. Decree and declare prayer is nauseating. Even if they are sound, the hurried voice is irritating.
Phil, the TV ministries do seem to have an affinity for the bucks.
I had heard about Jim Bakker’s illness, so I don’t know who is picking up the slack on dehydrated food.
Seems like these TV “ministries” don’t want to be on unless there is a buck in it–lots of bucks. Even Jimmy Bakker show seems to have taken a nose dive. Actually, I think he’s down with some serious illness and his present wife is still running the show. I don’t see all those buckets and buckets of tribulation survival food.
Yes definitely freaky. They like to be clever in their quotes. They don’t use His Word, they twist and rewrite it, add to it, and lie about it. Their quotes are absurd and sadly their followers can be vicious if you share why these people are not to be followed…
Holly, wow the tennis shoes thing is really freaky.
Yes, Andrew Wommack is one of the false teachers I’ve saved things over the years just in case people need to know. He is a prosperity, WOF, Pentecostal that teaches Healing is always God’s will. He actually has a ‘healing school’. He hangs out with heretics like Kenneth Copeland and says his ‘ministry’ has been such a blessing to him…
Some of his direct quotes:
“the baptism of the Holy Spirit is like a pair of tennis shoes: It always comes with tongues”.
“We need to use our imagination to agree with God’s Word and see ourselves the way God sees us: happy, healthy & prosperous”
“We have the same quantity & quality of faith that Jesus has; therefore, we can do the same works that Jesus did. John 14:12”
“Speak to your problem and command it to change. Direct your faith with your words.”
“Jesus spoke to the tree & it died, He spoke to the wind & it ceased, He spoke to the sea & it calmed, He spoke to bodies & they were healed. Your words contain the same power!”
Jason, it is no surprise that LS begets more legalism. It is interesting how many ways it manifests itself.
It’s like Reinhard Bonnke all over again. There is a globalistic agenda behind these automatic healing, “overcome everything” teachings. When these promises fail to materialize, it sets people up for fruit inspection and leads to bondage. I have heard claims that Bonnke never taught tithe. Apparently, his Africa missions started with healing and loadship. The tithing came later, under other false teachers. Other legalism followed. A common form of legalism in Africa is to refuse to recognize traditional marriages of the culture as valid and require church weddings with the blessing of the pastor. Once a man is dependent on the pastor and needs explanations, there is no end to the manipulations. The Congress of Berlin used similar tactics.
‘…simply wanted people to believe in Christ and be saved.’
Amen, for the unadulterated gospel!
Phil, I had heard of Andrew Womack (I saw his show listed on the guide channel of my TV), but had never watched or listened to him.
Thanks for the warning!
I don’t know if you have heard of Andrew Womack. He presently hosts his own show on some of the dubious Christian stations.
I was visiting a church in the late 1990’s that also had a radio ministry. They announced that Andrew Womack would give a message at like a Wed night service. I had heard him before on radio and knew he was pentecostal or Charismatic, but not much else about him. Well, I went to this Wed night service and after his message different people came up for healing for this or that. He would say, healing is no hard trick or some like that, and put his hand over them a pray for them and supposedly they were healed.
During his message, though, the full legalism of his beliefs came out. He is definitely faith plus works, and his loadship salvation false gospel is unmistakable. Even the pastor of this church kind of apologized for his works gospel on this next radio show and said that it was the stand of his church that they simply wanted people to believe in Christ and be saved.
The reason I am writing this is to warn people that Andrew Womack will have a very upbeat message, that believers have the power of God to overcome anything. But underneath, Womack teaches that you must make use of this overcoming that God provides you, and if you don’t you’re not really saved.
Needless to say, I never returned to this church, and every time Andrew Womack comes on with his TV show, I change the channel.
Jason that’s awesome. I’m glad you were able to share your testimony with both gentlemen.
Last Sunday, I gave out the last of the Shea booklets that I ordered last year. At a Burger King, I met a man I used to know from the Baptist church that I mentioned on my first reply on this thread.
I mentioned the gospel, and he was receptive to it. I mentioned the confusing things in the pulpits, and he agreed. He mentioned Benny Hinn, and I agreed. He even agreed with me that tithing was unbiblical, and this was a church that taught it.
I mentioned MacArthur. Conversation became difficult due to slowness of speech. He had recently turned 85, if I recall. But when I mentioned the guilt, he seemed to understand. When I mentioned the effect of the heretical turn from sin teaching, he had no argument. He told me about some recent goings on in the church, and he said, “you are doing just fine, by yourself”. And I showed him the booklet and told him that it would bless him. Like my mom, he had a childlike faith. I mentioned that I have found fellowship on the internet. I feel like I should have mentioned Arnold.
Later that night, I met another gentleman that knew me from a Baptist church in Newark. The only times I had visited such a church were with a sister church from my city, the one I mentioned. He told me that this church had ceased to be Baptist and had gone charismatic. I told him it wasn’t my cup of tea. Again, I shared some of my story and we agreed on the gospel. I did not have another booklet.
Now we did not get to talk in much detail about LS. I hope they did not leave something unsaid. It is encouraging when people agree with me about the gospel and discouraging when the message from the pulpit is nullifying. If I take their words at face value, I believe they are going to be with the Lord, and since God is not a liar, I know that I am going.
John, those types of signs make me batty.
If ‘real Christians’ did these things automatically, ‘Real Christians’ wouldn’t need to be told to DO these things after they were already Christians, it would be useless information, if it was just a by-product of the new birth.
These churches are so busy accusing Christians and suggesting they may not be ‘real’, they don’t themselves know if they are ‘real’, and don’t know how to encourage others to move onto perfection, because they’re too busy trying to finish in the flesh (if indeed the Spirit began a good work in them).
I saw a new sign today from the same LS group that put up the billboard that said “Real Christians Obey Jesus’ Teachings.”
The sign said “Real Christians Love Their Enemies.”
My comment: As Christians, we should love all people, including our enemies. However, whether or not a person loves his enemies is not a litmus test of whether or not he has eternal life. A person receives eternal life (becomes a real Christian) by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Here is a sign
“The devils believe and tremble”. Words of a fool
Yes Curtis, you give me some hope, that people can come out of that spell, so many people looking for biblical christianity, but don’t find it in these false apostate churches, salvation is truly a miracle, they have no discernment as babes if they are even truly born again.
We are living in such great deception, the churches have all been taken over, if we don’t warn them of the false doctrines and gospels who will, it certainly does not make us popular, they think we are being too picky, when in reality, the difference is between heaven and hell.
So if anyone is reading this and finds themselves in Hillsong, come out from among them, before you become more deceived than you already are. Hillsong have been using politicians and hollywood stars for years to draw them in.
As far as Hillsong, they seem to be coming from the charismatic, holiness, Pentacostal side, which are Arminian and Wesleyan basis (conditional salvation), Daystar carries them. I say avoid anything that features the Pentacostal message. And TBN is even worse with their world of faith shows.
One of the feature programs on the RCC EWTN network is one of their pet programs called “The Journey Home” an interview show hosted by an ex Protestant who converted to the RCC who interviews ex Protestants, evangelicals, and others who have converted to the RCC. This is what the RCC wants. You don’t have to look very far in the Calvinist/LS’s faith+works false gospel world to see just how close they can come Not just Hank Henegraaf, but go back to the ’90’s with the “Evangelicals and Catholics Together” debacle. and some who were involved in this: RC Sproal, D James Kennedy, and yes, John MacArthur.
Well said Jason
And I had no idea that Justin Bieber had anything to do with churches at all. When it isn’t works for justification, it is works for sanctification. They let you get saved by grace, but they don’t let you live by grace. They use the sermon on the mount or the ten commandments to keep you down. If they are GES, they inspect your fruit to see if you will stay out of outer darkness, which is purgatory.
it is said when Satan fell he landed in the choir.
Hillsong had me under their spell in the early 90’s.. There brand of false gospel showed up in recent headlines.
also showed up several years ago in immorality.
Were ever there is law keeping under a false gospel of works looking to ourselves as evidence of being saved. The souls are having thoughts that if they were to go out and lay one on the town that would be a step up.
Thats an illustration please don’t go lay one on the town.. for the Love of Christ constrains us.
Same thing going on here in the states Mary. I am surrounded by churches with dirty water. its all works.
I am thankful unto the lord for The Gospel of Grace pulpits who have live webcast and or freely make audio sermons freely available.
I wonder if there is an agenda behind Rome’s reaching out to a religion that promotes terror. I could imagine a war scenario with Europe and Latin America on Arabia’s side.
Mary, I think much of what has always passed for the “church” has been a sham. We see false brethren mentioned in Galatians and the RC religion seems to be broadening its message even more than ever right now. And, we have the Calvinists, Arminians, and others seemingly reaching out to join hands with one another, with the RC religion, and with other religions.
I live in Australia, I was watching on the news how Justin Bieber, the hollywood star is here in Sydney for the Wonder Hillsong Conference, which cost up to nearly $400 a seat, its like a rock concert with all the smoke bellowing out of the stage.
I think that Hillsong is false with a false gospel message that does not save, thousands will be attending this conference. I think the devil is luring especially these young ones to accept a false christ, allowing them to believe they are saved when they are not, they are Arminian in belief and Lordship.
Unfortunately Ken Ham is doing this with his false message of Lordship Salvation with his huge Noahs Ark museum he has set up in the USA, very impressive looking. Billy Graham was preaching Lordship salvation at his Crusades to. We have to be living in the last of the last days hopefully, we really don’t know how much time we have, most of the churches have apostasised. The gospel is rarely being preached so is it up to the believing remnant to preach it.
We are being told we are cultish, because of this gospel of Grace being preached and that we will be alone, so be it, I have been shown the truth, I cannot compromise and join with those who preach a false gospel.
Is Beiber being used by the devil, only god knows if Bieber has the correct gospel, I am sure some would be saved in the Hillsong Churches, but probably could not clearly articulate the clear gospel. They are aiding the enemy if they are by tithing and helping the enemy promote his doctrine of demons.
We are living in such difficult times, can be really discouraging at times, its so hard to get the religious on board, I am talking more about the so called Evangelicals who are under a subtle form of works gospel. They think we have flipped by saying, that just believing in Jesus is enough, eternal securtiy is the gospel, trusting in the finished work of Christ alone.
FAITH + WORKS = DEVILS GOSPEL.
We are seeing all the denominations working in together as one, Amazon has done a commercial with an Anglican Priest with a Muslim Imam enjoying a cup of tea together. They are all joining hands headed towards Rome, as far as I am concerned all these denominations are going back to Mother Rome, the Pope has been calling for all his children to come home, I came out of Rome and I am not about to have anything to do with these apostate churches.
It is also heretical that some people put out that simple faith leaves you cold, when on the contrary, lordshipping leaves you burnt out and in the dark.
Alice, grace is amazing!
What is heretical is when people try to turn the free gift of eternal life into a trade.
Thanks Johninnc for your comments and Holly for that list you set out and for reminding me of Tom Stegall’s message: ‘Must faith endure to be saved?’ I will re-listen to it. Before listening to that message, I had never heard such a message in any of the churches or Bible studies I have attended in the past. In fact such a message would be considered ‘heretical’ in the eyes of many pastors. In their view, that would be like saying even if you stop believing in Christ, you can still go to heaven!!
Curtis, that’s terribly sad but we know it’s how the enemy works in the church. Confuse, distract, subtly deceive. People think if they’re saved they cannot somehow be wrong on the gospel. Or they put up with another who is questionable or unclear on the gospel. They have heard so many presentations with ‘steps’ or the ‘alphabet’, or the ‘road’, or the ‘prayer’, or the surrendering or committing or accepting, etc., anything rather than believe on Christ and Him crucified for our sin…
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Cor 11:3-4
Alice, Here is a list of some of those bad things believers can do. Tom Stegall mentions this in his book, “Must Faith Endure for Salvation to be sure“.
1) Commit idolatry and apostasy (1 Kgs. 11:1-10)
2) Believe only for a while (Luke 8:13)
3) Not continue in the Word of Christ (Jn. 8:31)
4) Not abide in Christ (John 15:1-8)
5) Become disqualified in the race of the Christian life (1 Cor. 9:24-27)
6) Resist God’s chastening and correcting to the point of physical death (1 Cor. 11:30-32)
7) Stray from the faith (1 Timothy 1:5-6)
8) Shipwreck faith (1 Timothy 1:18-20)
9) Fall away from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1-3)
10) Deny the faith (1 Timothy 5:8)
11) Cast off initial faith and follow Satan (1 Timothy 5:12-15)
12) Stray from the faith by loving money (1 Timothy 6:9-10)
13) Stray from the faith by professing false doctrine (1 Timothy 6:20-21)
14) Deny Christ and be faithless (2 Timothy 2:11-13)
15) Have faith overthrown (2 Timothy 2:14-18)
Alice, God is gracious, I find it so sad that they haven’t considered they can never know (in their own theological construct) whether or not they are saved. The Word does tell us differently. One time when I was having a discussion with someone on Facebook, I eventually got frustrated with this idea of our salvation being undone. I started an UN list in my responses, and started using the Word. If they’d just ‘ask’ questions based on what the Word of God states, i.e.:
CAN WE BE UN-GIFTED THE FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE? Rom 6:23; Eph 2:8-9
CAN WE BECOME UN-RECONCILED? 2 Cor 5:18-20; Col 2:14-17
CAN WE BE UN-BORN AGAIN? Jn 3:3,6; 1 Pet 1:23
UN-BEGAT BY HIS WORD? James 1:18; 1 Pet 1:23
UN-SAVED ONCE WE ARE SAVED? * Saved to the uttermost: Heb 7:25
UN-MEMBERS OF THE BODY? 1 Cor 12:20-25
UN-FINISHED BY THE AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH? Heb 12:2
CAN WE BE UN-COMPLETED? Col 2:10; Heb 13:21
UN-CONFIRMED BLAMELESS TO THE END? 1 Cor 1:8
MADE UN-NECESSARY? 1 Cor 12:20-22
HOW CAN WE BE MADE UN-RIGHTEOUS, WHEN CHRIST IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS? Rom 10:4, Rom 3:22; Rom 5:19; 2 Cor 5:21
UN-GIFTED TO JESUS? We are given to the Son as a gift. And if you believe again after losing your salvation, is that the same thing as being RE-GIFTED to the Son? John 6:39-40; John 10:29; John 17:11, 24
HOW DO YOU BECOME UN-SONS OF GOD? Jn 1:12-13 Those of us who were born again of His will, think on this for a moment — God who foreknows all things decided to make us His Son knowing we would lose our sonship? I don’t believe so…
ARE WE MADE UN-ALIVE? Eph 2:1; 1 Pet 3:18
HOW DO WE BECOME UN-ESTABLISHED or UN-GUARANTEED? We lose that too? 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Eph 1:13
UN-HEALED BY HIS STRIPES? 1 Pet 2:24
BECOME UN-INHERITED? Acts 20:32; Eph 1:14 (Yes, I know the word is disinherited 🙂 This is play on words regarding being UNDONE.
SO DOES THAT UN-DEFILED INHERITANCE SOMEHOW BECOME DEFILED AGAIN? 1 Pet 1:4; Heb 9:15
UNFORGIVEN? (Isn’t that a movie?) Will He UNFORGIVE you in the reverse of ALL OF YOUR SINS? Col 2:13; Titus 2:14; Heb 10:10, 14
UN-TRANSLATED FROM THE KINGDOM OF HIS DEAR SON? Col 1:13
UN-ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED? Eph 1:6
The God of the Bible who HATES divorce, will divorce the Bride He loved and gave Himself for? At what point?
Does the blood of Christ somehow get made UNclean because we were washed in it? So once again, do we then become UNsaved? Eph 1:7
ARE WE MADE UN-NIGH BY HIS BLOOD? Eph 2:13
IS OUR CONSCIENCE UN-PURGED?
DO WE BECOME UN-CLEANSED? 1 John 1:7
UN-WASHED BY HIS BLOOD? Rev 2:5
There’s more that I made into an article, but a couple actually started ‘seeing’. It is hard to break that teaching but asking those questions gets through to some. My mom was one of them.
even in an IFCA assembly i was in a 3 years of Tuesday nights Moody Bible institute accredited Scofield class. the pastor taught near the end of class he asked our class of around 20 “how are we saved? ”
not one of us knew the answer until it was given by Him.
about 4 years later after pastor retired the church split bitterly over the Gospel neither side was clear on and still not clear.
my biblical unstanding of basic simple basics postinal Truth was apauling.
Alice, agree. There is only one way to go to heaven – by grace through faith in Christ. There is no other way.
It is unfathomable to my Charismatic, Arminian friend that millions upon millions of his fellow Arminian ‘Christians’ who currently believe that they could lose their salvation if they don’t persevere in faithful obedience and on-going faith to the end of their life, are going to be told by the Lord Jesus Christ when they die that they are not welcome in to heaven but to depart from Him and that He never knew them ( Matt 7:22-23). He thinks this is splitting ‘theological’ hairs! Trying to get him to understand that these people are trusting to some degree in their ‘works’ to keep themselves ‘saved’ instead of Christ alone seems so hard. He keeps telling me that God is ‘gracious’ ( not that picky) and will not exclude them from heaven just because they didn’t get all the doctrine correct with perfect understanding and besides, theologians have been debating these issues for centuries so none of us have got perfect knowledge of the Bible and we need to ‘agree to disagree’ to keep peace.
I had to remind him that if the Lord Jesus allowed even one person into heaven by ‘bending the rules’ just a little bit and/or changing the terms and conditions for salvation (faith + nothing) just a tiny bit, then we may as well throw the Bible into the garbage bin! His Word could not be trusted and His promises mean nothing!
Christ Died for me that’s substitutiononary atonement. Thats enough to go to heaven but not enough to live the Christian Life.
not being enough to live the Christian Life is were all the ist’s ism’s and ite’s dwell. If a saved soul is thus ensnared by.
It does intrigue me how the Word of God is a snare to the pround mind but freedom to the humble mind.
knowing the spiritual trauma God used to set me free in my thinking is why few souls come out from among them.
“they will not endure sound doctrine”
Also note how few places are on the vastness of the internet like
Alice, John 3:15 also mentions eternal life for the believer.
Thank you Johninnc , Holly and Jason, for your explanations to my question.
I have to admit it has been such a struggle getting this friend to accept that once a believer is justified by simple child-like faith in the finished work of Christ apart from any works either to get saved or stay saved or prove that he/she is saved, that believer is forever saved and can never lose salvation.
Having been indoctrinated in the Charismatic movement for many decades, it seems almost impossible to accept that even if that believer commits grievous sins (eg King David) and/or fails to confess his sin/s or stops believing in Christ altogether and goes back into the world (Demas) or falls into total idolatry worshipping false gods (KIng Solomon) that believer is still going to heaven and is saved forever. This friend has actually been told in his church/denomination that King Solomon is not saved even though the Holy Spirit had inspired Solomon to write a number of books in the O.T Bible but because there is no clear indication that Solomon confessed his sins of marrying foreign women and worshipping their gods, so he ‘lost’ his salvation! Only the Lord can open the eyes and mind of my friend to the Truth that eternal life is eternal. This is what Satan would say: ‘Did Jesus really say in John 3:16 that everlasting life is ‘everlasting’?
Alice, it is enough if they understand (as John already said) what they were saved from (eternal death). Understanding completely the doctrines are not what we should worry about, but they need to know what He came to save them from.
I usually when I use Romans 3:23 and 6:23, explain that He is saving them from eternal death, so conversely they receive eternal life right then. It’s good to explain that furthermore the Holy Spirit has sealed them until the day of Redemption (Eph 4:30) once they believed (Eph 1:13) and that we now possess (own, to have to hold) eternal life (1 John 5:9-13) and it will never be lost (John 10:28-30). I know that many were unsettled and then had a false gospel denying His resurrection and not understanding what His resurrection meant to us concerning eternal life (read 1 Corinthians 15, really helpful). 2 Timothy 2 says their word ate like a canker (they were saying the resurrection had already taken place) but both were attacking the resurrection. Because He lives, He is the firstfruits of all of us who believe, and we too WILL live eternally because He has promised 🙂 and He is not a man that He should lie.
Following are a couple of excerpts from Clear Gospel:
We further reject as incompatible with saving faith in Jesus Christ the belief that one can lose their salvation through sin. We believe that this is heresy is logically incompatible with the fact that Jesus Christ paid in full the penalty for our sins at the cross. We further affirm that such belief demonstrates a total lack of understanding that sin was paid for at Calvary, and that an exercise of faith in Christ that is stained by this heresy is dishonoring to the Son, and a denial of what he accomplished at Calvary. Accordingly, we believe that a true saving faith the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not evidenced in a profession of faith tainted by this heresy.
We acknowledge that believers may fall into error or confusion regarding salvation and works after their conversion, as happened to the church of Galatia (Galatians 1:6-7. 3:1). We further acknowledge that the believers of Galatia were regarded as “brethren,” (Galatians 1:3), having fallen into this grievous error subsequent to their coming to an authentic faith in Christ (Galatians 3:1-3). We note, however, that the authors of this grievous error, who had never believed on Christ alone, having simply added Jesus Christ to a pre-existing confession of salvation by works (Acts 15:1) were regarded as “false brethren.” (Galatians 2:4). To this end, we affirm that a lost sinner must, at some time in his life, believe on Christ alone, apart from the works of the law, for his salvation, and that apart from such an authentic moment of saving faith, there is no hope of salvation.
Logically, if someone believed that Jesus paid for his sins in full, it does not make sense that he could lose what Jesus paid for by sinning. If he believes Jesus for eternal life, he implicitly believes in eternal security, since a life that could be lost would not be eternal. To reject eternal security while believing in full payment would be double-minded. I don’t think one can simultaneously have saving faith and be double-minded about the content, but a saved person can become double-minded later or even fall from faith completely. One of the dangers of lordship is that it causes many shipwrecks. I hope I have been helpful. My mind regresses if I am not careful.
Alice, the question that you asked hinges on the phrase “in full.”
That is, as long as the person knew that there was nothing he could do to add to Christ’s finished work to become or stay saved, then I would say yes.
In other words, when he trusted in Jesus as Savior, did he know from what he was being saved? If he thought that he was believing in Jesus as Savior to “make him live a better life,” or something along those lines, then he probably didn’t really understand the gospel. If he believed in Jesus for eternal life, then he should know that it is eternal.
I hope I am not digressing from the thread of conversation here.
But my friend who I am trying to inform about Lordship salvation, asked me this question:
“If a person believed that Jesus Christ the Son of God died for my sins in my place and paid the sin-debt in full with His shed blood on the cross, through His death, burial and resurrection and he/she trusted in Jesus Christ as His Savrour, is that enough to be saved at that point in time?
In other words, he doesn’t know all the doctrine about ‘Once saved, Always saved’ or ‘Eternal Security of the believer’ or ‘A believer can lose salvation if he doesn’t persevere to the end’, and of the difference between ‘Justification and Sanctification’ and so on, as he/she is a new believer and hasn’t yet gotten into the study of God’s Word. Even if that person falls into false teaching of LS, Arminianism or Calvinism later in his life, is that person who once simply believed that Jesus died and paid the sin-debt and rose again, is that enough to get saved and go to heaven?”
They take part in their “salvation” by lordshipping, inspecting fruit, making Jesus Lord, surrendering all, out-sacrificing God, bearing the cross, not looking back, repenting of sin, and doing good works as the inevitable result. Sounds monergistic to me, lol.
Curtis – in a way, it is easier to follow them in some ways for many because it’s the voice of the majority. Paul said at Corinth he was determined to know nothing among them except Christ and Him crucified, and our armor exhortations say to shod our feet daily with the preparation of the gospel of peace.
People who don’t have a good foundation in that can’t rest, they are too busy being blown about by all those winds of doctrine. But as you said, it is a Luke 10:38-42 reminder for me when you said, “Enjoying Jesus through The Word of God allowing the Holy Spirit to use the word of God through application of The Truth of God’s Word through the experiences of life. moment by moment.”
Hmmm… “faith in one’s faith”… yes, I’ve heard that from the D.O.G. teachers (aka TULIP). Also one today spoke of the difference between monergism and synergism, just tired of the dishonest way they frame what we believe (we take part in our salvation by believing). When we believe, He saves us, not too hard to understand. But, by handling the Word of God deceitfully, they keep others blinded to the truth.
That’s to hard to study an learn.. Holly
its easier to say obey the teachings of Jesus. rather than teach exhorrt rebuke encourage to Rest in the finished work of Christ. Enjoying Jesus through The Word of God allowing the Holy Spirit to use the word of God through application of The Truth of God’s Word through the experiences of life. moment by moment..
“Obey the teachings of Jesus” that’s easy beliveism haveing faith in ones faith.
A good one. Covers both lordship and crossless.
How about Real Christians believe Who Jesus is and what He did for us? (Christ and Him crucified)…
Jason, agree that LS is not at all aligned with the gospel and is not of God.
Here’s one I’d like to see: “Lordshipping is breaking the new commandment”.
It is clearly not loving one another as Christ loved us and goes against everything in the first epistle of John. Lordshipping is also aligned with the Accuser, who was a liar and murderer in the beginning.
While I was on the way to Atlanta, I saw the billboard that Curtis mentioned a while back that says:
Real Christians Obey Jesus’ Teachings
I would propose some alternatives, such as:
Christians shouldn’t put up LS billboards!
Real Christians have believed in Jesus ALONE as Savior!
Jon and Socal Exile, some teach that the churches of Revelation are only literal churches, I see them as literal churches for sure, but I see them as types within the church. I think on the church at Philadelphia. It’s not much longer, and we may have a little strength, but with His help, and with His Word, may we make the best of His time and comfort one another with the words that He is coming again to catch us up to Him in the clouds, and so shall we ever be with the Lord (for those who believe in believers being cast into outer darkness).
Praying for you guys to find comfort in His Word (Rom 15:4; Ps 119:25, 28) and that He might bring you another believer (or so) whether in the flesh, or online to fellowship with. God bless you both, and the rest of you all here 🙂
here is 5/17 wendsay nite message. its like Pastor Rokser that goes along with the recent discussion here
Jon, I have continued to pray for you – particularly for comfort and encouragement.
Holly(and Curtis and John) thank you for taking the time to respond to me. I appreciate the verses to look up and the good advice. I have put my faith in Christ alone to save me the best way I know how. I have heard and seen the gospel presented clearly numerous times by Yankee Arnold and Tom Cucuzza. I have also read the Gospel booklet by Clear Gospel (Ron Shea-I believe) a few times as well. Recently I have watched some stuff from Jim Scudder Jr. as well. He also seems very clear on Grace and uses the wallet to represent sin method. There are no sound churches that I know of in my area unfortunately.
I have been discouraged lately as I quit my job a few months back due to stress and have been unable to find work. I had a pretty good habit of reading my Bible at work every night but kind of fell out of my routine now that I’m unemployed. I apologize if I have seemed confrontational or antagonistic here.
My wife and I recently watched a message by Tom C., I think it was an Easter message. He mentioned that if you are hurting Christ will come along side you and comfort you. It was very encouraging and felt like exactly what I needed to hear right then.
well that explains a lot.. i thought people could see my contact information under my frog and crane picture..
oh well. will email Johninc to forward to you..
Curtis, I did not see where to click on your profile.
“Whether of them twain did the will of his father?”. Another verse connecting believe with the will of the father. So many twist I never knew you.
Curtis, the idea of meeting up sounds excellent.
It occurs to me that Huckleberry2012 was probably referring to the original post. It is a common reaction to post one’s thoughts, without direct reference, about the OP, not bothering to notice what was commented before. I’ve done that.
Back on topic, I feel that all I can do is do what I can with the life and time God has given me, holding on to what little I have. I used to have big dreams, was disappointed. If I can win a soul or build someone up in the faith, it would mean more to me than all the bible reading and praying in the world. Pray without ceasing is impossible to do literally, so I take it to mean abiding in the Word. Christ lives in me through what I can do, not what I can’t do.
yep socal im just looking to finish well at this point in my life. “I now live” i have this memorized 20 some years and just saw this in a message preached wendsay night. last night.. planning on posting sermon when it is uploaded. its like the Pastor has been reading this thread.
I now live
I now live
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
SoCal, I am praying for you to receive encouragement, comfort, and strength.
IFB and all of Works for salvation crowd are having thoughts that would make getting drunk a step up. That’s what Jesus was hitting the religious with. (Now im using getting drunk as an illustration. dont get drunk.)
The pharasies were very nice glad handing people the kind of people you would want in a church. BUT call them Carnal Like Jesus did and they will reach for rocks.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you
Pastor Tom Northland Baptist Church.
Baptist is in name only not doctrine.
one of his sermons he talks about how Northland came to be. but i forgot what he said
Hey Jason.. Duluth Bible Church is having a grace conference starting today till Sunday at the church facebook link below.
its a Hispanic church but Randy Zemple will be preaching in English with a translator.
maybe we could meet up there.
i pondering going Sunday
my contact information just click on my profile
All I know is I have no rest. I’m tired of the fight. all I can do is just live out whatever time is left and accept my fate.
It’s been a long road to KJVP for me. I have researched Jack Hyles, Ben Mott, Jon Crosby, Steve Anderson, Steve van Nattan, David Stewart, the Bob Joneses. Some of these people are wicked. Jack Hyles was caught molesting boys. These people condemn Harry Potter and watch porn. I get the impression that IFB is a cult. These people may be saved and carnal or double-minded like Luther. I can’t tell. I wouldn’t feel saved in their churches. I’d be better off playing video games.
I don’t get any of that from Tom Cucuzza. He will tell you that being Baptist does not make you saved. I love how he says, don’t worry about the bilderbergers, go have a big mac.
SoCal, good question and good reminder for us to be gracious, gentle, and wise while proclaiming and defending the gospel.
I have a question, why is it so many people that profess “grace” show so little of it? I mean even in the anti-Lordship Salvation camp. I get it fron the GES people because I don’t agree with Bob Wilkin’s definition of repentance. I get it from the IFB people because I don’t hold to KJVO, and received some pretty foul threats and names because I disagreed on an issue. How can people claim grace and yet show so little? Yet so many LS people seem like they’re trying to out-Christian each other and least fake it, if they aren’t actually sincere. It really makes me wonder if perhaps the Calvinists have it right and I’m just not chosen. There is no rest it seerms.
Lordship hard believism
Keeping on keeping on
When will it end
Can’t hear the words
Can’t sing along
But it’s all part of go to church
Read your bible and pray
Eternal security not said
Did not truly believe
Jesus not lord at all because he isn’t lord of all
They say the damnedest things
Make him lord
Surrender your life
Call Francis your brother
March with them for life
It has a purpose to deceive
Repent of sin
Turn or burn
Believing isn’t enough
Doing good isn’t enough
Right motives isn’t enough
One wrong word proves you didn’t have it
When is it enough
You will never know
You could be perfect and still hear
The deaded words
I never knew you
I guess hell is made not only for devils
But also the unelect
Watch movies, read worldly books
Disregard whatever anyone says
About Harry Potter
Just another sin to repent of
Like any other
It won’t be enough
Enjoy life while you can
Everyone comes to the same end
It’s all vanity
But it may as well be enoyable vanity
Like playing Bloons Monkey City
Going for round 100
Nothing new under the sun
The gospel comes
Simple and clear
Look and live
Just like Moses and the serpent
Drawn by the cross
Standing on the promise
The resurrection and the life
Repent of sin not necessary
Even damningly unnecessary
Life now has purpose
Not to be lovers of the world
But to love the world as Christ
Who died for the world’s sins
To share the gospel
To redeem the time
To give testimony
To glorify God
By giving thanks
Abiding in Him
Being in the Word
Resisting the flesh
Love casting out fear
Stand fast in the liberty
Wherein you are free
Not to be enslaved again
For freedom we are set free
Cannot be lost
Cannot outsin grace
Cannot return the gift to sender
One day we will be done
With the troubles of the world
He will wipe away every tear
No more night
No more hurricanes
Tree of life
No more sin
Remembered no more
The distance from east to west
Like a Riemann surface
Is the distance of infinity
No more night or perpetual night
Which is it
what Holy said..
also for me personally false and weak teaching really messes me up.. Even with the best intentions to seek fellowship locally all the churches in my area the Clear Simple Gospel of Grace is not around here. i can not sacrifice sound doctrine for fellowship that is weak or false teaching.
when going through a trial first thing is i back track and ponder if heard or was exposed to bad or weak doctrine. The weak doctrine is worse for me because of what is not said. its not completely false its lacking and ad’s a morsel of human effort.
for me is to make sure i am listening to biblically sound doctrine over a pulpit that understands justification santification glorification.
the difficulty for me is enduring sound doctrine after realizing sound doctrine has been missing from my walk with Christ 30 some years even while attending a IFCA Church for about 10 years.
How could so much of the scriptures be left unsaid and unrealized in my life all theese years? That is hard guess thats why we are told to endure it.
I have made so many very very simple stupid business decisions simply because my thinking was not correct.
Jon, if you have believed on Christ and Him crucified for you, you belong here. We are all at varying levels of growth, some of us struggle more with the flesh than others. Some don’t have much fellowship locally with people or good teaching locally. We come from all walks. All of us need to make a decision to walk in the Spirit, and I think sometimes it’s several times a day and maybe sometimes we don’t, or don’t think to do it. The example we have of the epistles is that people struggled. We sometimes make it too complicated as we do too much work ourselves then figure we just can’t do it. We can’t without His help. Just really take a hard look at Luke 10:38-42, and Prov 22:17-21, 1 John 2:27, 2 Tim 2:15. Spend some time when you can in His Word. We desperately need it to become disciples. Try to pray for more things. Don’t attempt to be spiritual, just try to spend some more time with Him. I pray you will just keep getting up with His help and continue in His Word. Abide in Him and when you don’t, go back again, He’s never going to forsake us or leave us. Love in Christ.
More on my lost friend who recommeded the Presence. About 5 years ago, he was more grace than I was. He asked me what I thought of the bumper sticker, “America, bless God”. He asked if I thought it had more grace than the usual patriotic blessing. That question tricked me, lol. He told me about how MacArthurism destroyed our former church. I was curious to know more, but couldn’t get more out of him. He told me about a bible study based on 1st John. He said it clearly taught eternal security. But it wasn’t clear to me at all back then. Indeed, much of that epistle needs to be rightly divided. I asked him questions, and he was like, that is talking about someone who is consciously an enemy of God. Ok, I guess that’s enough repenting. Not sure.
He and I used to call each other once a month. I got a job, and it exhausted me so much I had no time for company. The next year I resigned and have not had a job since. All my computer skills have become unprofitable. Then last year, I call him, and he doesn’t seem interested in grace at all. I want to talk about this site, and he is not interested. Instead, he wants me to read a Catholic. I even told him about my change of mind. and both he and his wife think that unless we turn our backs on God, we remain saved. That is not eternal security. He reminded me of what our pastor 20 years ago preached, and I never remembered that pastor ever saying anything like that.
I am like, what happened to both of us? Did we both have a change of mind in the opposite direction simultaneously? I knew at that point, he and I would never be on the same page. Not that we ever were. He also was not interested in Hanegraaff when I was. I was in error, but I needed someone to talk to about it. So I never called back. I’ve lost my friend.
The former pastor of the megachurch had retired. I downloaded the last sermon he preached, and he preached the Real Presence in the Lord’s supper. That church is becoming episcopal, shocker.
Maybe better to say inoperative grammatically. The operative word is justified.
along with what Johninc said..
the key to living the Christian life is admit we have not been admit our failures (sin)
God wants Truth in the inward parts..
I can’t live the Christian Life it must all be by Christ.
God i can’t live the Christian Life.
God is not asking us to. God does not want our help to live the Christian Life. Thats the problem when we try..
yeah Jon been thinking about that “sin nature being inoperative” maybe better to say inoperative to serve God.
God declares the old sin nature worthless and must be done away with.. God has in Christ Jesus who came in flesh to pay for sin.
Now the ole fable White Dog Black Dog wich ever one we feed the most lives is only 1/2 truth. When we Trust Jesus as our Saviour God puts to death the negative sin nature giving us a brand new life to Live in the flesh Galatians 2:20. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Notice Faith OF when we place faith in Christ Jesus
God magnifies/ glorifies Christ Jesus by His faith The Life Jesus walked before the father.. a perect life.
Galatians 2:20 is were the KJV is superior in this verse of scripture translation.
Jon, I sometimes find myself thinking (and doing) things that are not consistent with my new nature. I think any of us who are honest would say the same thing. I won’t try to quantify the extent to which I am spiritual (certainly not all of the time).
I will reaffirm our statement of faith on our flesh vs. our new nature:
A child of God has two births; one of the flesh, the other of the Spirit, giving man a flesh nature and a Spirit nature. The flesh nature is neither good nor righteous. The Spiritual Man does not commit any sin. This results in a warfare between the Spirit and the flesh, which continues until physical death, or the return of the Lord. The flesh nature of the man does not change in any way with the new birth, but can be controlled and kept subdued by the new man as the believer is obedient to the Lord through His Word. John 3:3-7; Romans 7:15-25; Romans 8:8; Galatians 5:17; I John 3:9; I Peter 1:23; I John 5:18.
Curtis, you say “the old sin nature has been made inoperative.” Definition of inoperative:a.not functioning or b.not capable of being used. If this were true we could not choose to walk in the flesh because it simply wouldn’t function any more. Only our new sinless nature would be operable, therefore all Believers would be completely spiritual all the time. Not sure how this is different from sinless perfection. What does it feel like to be completely spiritual? According to your criteria I must be completely carnal all the time.I have never had any fellowship with God. I have to say it feels hopeless. I must be missing something. I am saved but I do not feel like I have been saved from the power of sin over me. I do not ‘fit in’ here and yet I don’t seem to fit in with unbelievers either. Does everyone that posts here feel they are completely spiritual? All the time, most of the time?
Katmazdobelieve… Whoever they are, sometimes we have to take a really firm stand. I too have a family member who has told my children I take this or that too far (with the gospel or church teachings). But we have to answer to God for how our children are raised, and what they learn Biblically speaking. I don’t want my children being taught to compromise. This person often says things like “I don’t feel the need to nitpick everyone”, or “I don’t think I’m called’ to do that” (name bad gospels or warn about bad teachers). I love this person, but I can’t allow them to introduce error into my children’s life without being withstood to their face (with kindness but firmness). I tell this one we are ALL to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered, and if we don’t defend the gospel, what will we answer for? Who might believe a different gospel? We are ALL to mark and avoid, we are ALL to expose the evil to the light, we are not to fellowship with the unfruitful deeds of darkness.
And we don’t want them to teach our children something to be true that we don’t see specifically in Scripture. As for the Jesus crying thing, I believe I’d just correct them with, “Jesus wept for those who rejected Him. And Jesus sweated tears of blood before He suffered and died on the cross for our sins. But now He has washed us in His blood, and He sees us white as snow. So of course we should want to try to do better with His help because of His great love for us.” Then you could maybe point them to it’s good to be renewed and transformed (Rom 12:2), or to add to our faith (2 Pet 1:5-9) and washed in the water by His Word (Eph 5:26) that this is how we are ‘practically’ sanctified and more able to walk in the Spirit vs. walking in the flesh. Just some thoughts, but I want you to know, ‘oh how I relate’…
Thanks for saying that, Holly. Cringing over unbiblical phrases is exactly what this site is about: repent of sin, ask Jesus into your heart, truly saved, etc. Sounding like the world and not the Word.
Brad, by saying we possess ‘God’s very life in us’, you are saying what they say in Rhema and WOF teachings (people like Kenneth Hagin, Copeland and others) or television personalities like Marian Williamson or Oprah…who attribute it to us being divine, instead of Christ living in us, instead of His power, His nature, His being, they twist it to mean that it is “God imparting His very nature, substance, and being to our human spirits” (Hagin). We become the divine.
Like Jason I squirm a little when phraseology is used that we don’t see in Scripture, but we do see in aberrant teachings. I’d like to caution you as a sister in Christ just about reading too much from man. Learn from His Word, do ask the multitude of counsel. Be cautious with those like Ryrie who taught backdoor loadship (although a lot of us didn’t know). Be careful with too many teachers. God bless you in your studies.
Curtis, your story of chasing the church people away made me smile. I tend to be too long-suffering and I don’t mean that in a good way. I mean for it to be good, but I lack the ability (getting better) to know when to cut off these people. I want to be patient, gentle, want to recover people from error, but at the same time, (as in the story of the woman above), I can tend to let people linger too long, and I suffer in that I wonder about my culpability in giving them place for too long. I pray for any that I caused to stumble via letting certain people into other’s lives. God bless you for letting them know why they weren’t give place for an hour, because they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel. 🙂
I write pastors, and I let them know (when I run across them) why I feel that something doesn’t line up with the truth of the gospel. I use the Word to do it. The majority, (high majority) there is no response. I have had a couple respond with condescension. And I have had worse (name called, told to blow it out your nose Jezebel, shut my trap, etc.) by pastors. One is bbfohio. I marvel at how fast these ‘men of God’ can show their fangs by just using His Word. I thank God for the sharpness of His Word, because I don’t need to say or do one thing, just use His Word and you will watch them grow angry. I realize pastors are extremely busy, but think on the few sound ones we know and how they are willing to answer. May God bless them and keep them strong, replenished, refreshed and revived by His Word.
Jason, catching up and reading way above, I had this friend who was reading this “wonderful little book” she wanted to share with me. Of course it was Practicing the Presence”. When I tried to warn her about brother Lawrence’s contemplative and mystic ways, she mocked me and found it “nitpicky and ridiculous” that I would find this sweet little old monk to be anything to be afraid of (as if I were afraid). She then assured me he was just trying to get closer to God.
This was the same one that was sure all her RC friends were saved because she prayed with them during the 40 days for life marches and she could tell by how sincere their prayers were (I’m sure they were as much as humanly possible, I have met some of them, very nice people)… But how loving is it to now share the truth with them? How loving is it to not point out error?
This is the same one who got very angry when I spoke on Billy Graham’s errors, and years ago found Jack Weaver to be a heretic (because he preached that repent did not = repent from sin, and turning from sin was a work) and warned me I needed to stay away from him. What a wonderful blessing that I had to be able to talk with Jack, fellowship with him, to know him, this side of heaven…
She was very unhappy about me speaking about the Duck Dynasty’s errors (church of Christ), or the 18 and counting people not preaching the correct gospel. Time and time again she slid right into error, and she defended this loadship or contemplative error and ironically used her ‘discernment’ of Benny Hinn while carnal as ‘proof’ she was ‘really saved’. But as she seemed to come out of all this error she was in over the years, she evidently started to get a sense of pride of things she ‘never’ did, or things she ‘always’ did when she was ‘steeped in sin’. Trouble is, the common denominator was still there — law. She was in bondage, being bewitched and bewitching others. We can think we’re living by grace, but even if so, we’ll be fortunate if somehow we haven’t subverted the truth of the gospel by our backdoor loadship perseverance of the saints thinking.
In the end this woman warned others that I (and others of ‘my group’) ‘took grace too far’ (because the Bible clearly shows there are carnal believers who are even not remorseful for heinous sins). Yet she related her experience of being carnal as different because there were things she ‘always’ or ‘never’ did as proof she was saved. This is where anyone can get in trouble, when we relate experience or feelings to somehow be the same as the truth of God’s Word.
Not relating any of this to you, but your mention of Brother Lawrence brought it to the forefront. Made me think of the many years of this woman being in error and bondage, only to continue as recently as a year ago, to point to her behavior as proof of ‘being saved’. She is no longer a friend, as she was causing others to fall into doubt with her behind the scenes emails and phone calls of POS. She is older and I pray she will be set free from this thinking. But until then, this kind of thinking causes young ones to stumble, and costs countless others their souls.
Sound just like lordship. Keeps telling us that whatever we are doing is sin, regardless of whether the deed is right or wrong. And if we believe the gospel, lordship tells us we are turning grace into a license.
This was a good discussion. Thanks.
I have a family member that keeps telling my children that when ever they use language they feel is inappropriate, regardless of what the language is or isn’t, they tell my children that it “makes Jesus cry”. This really bothers me.
as believers in Christ Jesus.. the old sin (notice called old sin nature) nature has been made inoperative.
we don’t Have to serve the sin nature. We have been set free to serve God Freely.
There is no middle ground. We either serve christ or self.
we either have fellowship or out of fellowship.
no middle ground.
Spirituality and Growth seperate
belivers are either spiritual or carnal.
carnal moral or carnal immoral
Brad, the quote from Ryrie is a decent one, although we would prefer that you not quote him here.
Being a slave to sin means The unregenerate man has not been freed from the penalty of sin, or the resultant consequences. He can do nothing of himself to escape them. He also has no power over sin, because everything he does – no matter how noble it may seem to himself or others – is done in the flesh. Accordingly, all of his works are filthy rags – no matter how kind, virtuous, or well intentioned.
Some people are worse than others, but all unsaved people are equally bad off.
The new man is sinless. The believer who is walking in the Spirit will not simultaneously fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Oh no, I just caught that audio from Jason Cooley saying repent of sin. It was good up to that point.
Thanks for the replies. What does it mean then to be a slave to sin? Wouldn’t that imply that an unregenerate sinner has only the capacity to sin? Is it the fact that when an unregenerate person does a good deed outwardly, their motivation for that deed is still sinful inwardly (i.e. self glorification or self righteousness)?
From the “Secure Forever!” book (Charles Ryrie quote): “Conversion brings with it a new capacity with which we may now serve God and righteousness. Before salvation we were servants of sin, but now we may be servants of righteousness (Romans 6:18-20). The unsaved man has only one capacity, but the Christian has two. This means that the unsaved person has only one course of action-to serve sin and self, or to leave God out of his life-while the believer has an option. He may serve God, and as long as he is in a human body he may also choose to leave God out and live according to the old nature”.
I was just now listening to a podcast from Old Paths about the occult history of Artificial Intelligence. I never saw the wisdom in letting computers drive our cars.
Too true. I’ve seen enough good works in the world.
anything an unbeliever can do that a believer does is not spirituality.
Spirituality is vertical and invisible for spirituality is in our thinking.
Brad, there are many unsaved people who exhibit self-control, patience, etc. That is why fruit inspection is such a fruitless pursuit. However, only someone who is saved is able to walk in the Spirit and subdue the flesh in a spiritual way.
Check out the link below:
Is it fair to say that it is impossible for the unsaved person to subdue the flesh? Seeing as self-control (temperance) is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
Being made in God”s image also implies sharing some attributes and not others, so I agree.
I have become hypersensitive to both theosis lingo and lordship lingo, because I have labored under both teachings. Sorry if I have overreacted.
jason, when we are regenerated, we receive some attributes of God (eternal life, and sinlessness in our new man (see 1 John 3:9)), yet we do not receive other attributes of God (such as omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence).
I don’t think anyone is trying to teach theosis here.
“Repent of sins” does not occur in scripture. I don’t see “very life of God” occurring , either. It does occur in Eastern Orthodox teaching and Catholic encyclicals. This is theosis. I’m not doing a Hanegraaff. I reject.
“Obey the bishops” is second century teaching, alive and well today.
God cannot be in the presence of sin. So before the Holy Spirit can come to dwell in a person, the separation between that person and God must be removed. That separation is inherited sin from Adam. Once sin has been fully dealt with, through faith in Christ’s attoning sacrifice alone, that person has been reconciled to God. God can now see that person as fully righteous in Christ and can therefore dwell in that person in the Person of the Holy Spirit. The presence of the Holy Spirit in that person gives him the capability and desire to subdue the flesh, for he now is made a partaker of God’s Divine nature, but the subduing of the flesh is not automatic – it requires that the person choose to walk in His Spirit and thus not in the flesh. The “new nature” is only new to the person who now posseses it, but in reality it is a nature that has always existed, as it is God’s Divine nature. In the same way, the spiritual life that person now posseses is God’s very life in them. Without the life and strength provided by God, the person can do nothing.
Most of my beliefs were formed in that community I grew up with. They used to go to a church called Bethel Baptist. As far as my memory can reconstruct, they had been free grace, but some subtle lingo had crept in, invite Jesus and all that. Strangely, repent of sins wasn’t one of them. I drifted away from them and chased after some hardcore lordship teachings. I looked at church history too much, which was really tradition. Meanwhile, Bethel was taken over by MacArthurites, and the flock started changing churches. Most of them ended up at the megachurch they are at. When I finally made a U-turn, I find that the community has joined the zombie friendly movement. I don’t want zombies on my lawn. “Bethel” is now associated in my mind with the mother of abominable movements. I wake up one day and find I am better off playing video games than going to a church, what a world.
yeah that’s something to hand over to the Lord. Growing up in my area as well and comming to realize all the people i know and grew up around and looked up to are /were simply being religious (carnal moral) . They dont drink smoke or chew but sure can pound a hammer and nail to make up for it. They will straighten out a nails out too.
The small country church in my area i was told im lower than low for questioning the pastor on the Gospel and saying thats not the Gospel.
I guess chasing the church vistors off my property didn’t help either. but sure did feel good when they couldn’t simply tell me my sins are paid for.
And for hating megacurches because they are the world, Andy calls us selfish. I call him worldly. I can’t stand megachurches. I was going to a Baptist church 3 years ago, too many programs. They were overhauling the sanctuary, they called it Pillar of Fire, they raised funds. My heart wasn’t in it, I left. It became a megachurch.
Last year, I read posts on this site about how to mark and avoid a lordship church. I applied it to that church, found their statement, saw repent of sins. Much of the Christian community I had grown up with was there. I called a friend from the church I had not met for a year, tried to point him to this site. His response? He pointed me to Brother Lawrence. I tried to warn him about contemplative prayer. He assured me it wasn’t. I looked up Practicing the Presence, saw the worst. I haven’t called him since. So much to mark and avoid, it drives me nanners.
I’m better than you because I don’t say I’m better than you, lol.
the bottom line for me with Andy Stanley is there is no bottom line. Its what Andy Stanley does Not say is the problem.
anyone not filled with the Spirit and serving the Lord is filled with all kinds of nonsense of thoughts.. Mega Churches like Andy Stanley pray on that by focusing on sin management rather than Christ Jesus. They make no distinction between saved and lost and treat all people like an unsaved psychologist and the people love it that way.
If it is popular 95 % its not the Gospel
at anytime we turn away from the Truth of The Gospel we start looking at ourselves, our externals and or atmosphere..
atmosphere as in candels, crosses, bumper stickers ect…
I’m better than you because i don’t
oh yeah well i better than you because im not bound by your dont’s
The very title of the book How Saved are We is very creepy. Brown and Wurmbrand were two lordship influences on my life during my time of confusion. Shock and awe aimed at one’s assurance was their M.O.
I was unfortunate enough to find one of Andy Stanley’s books in the midst of the junk in my car accumulated from six months of my sister’s borrowing: “How Good is Good Enough?”. One would not know from the content of the book that Andy associates himself with those who answer that they are.
jason, if they mean that there are “signs” that someone has eternal life, that is simply heretical.
We have had several comments about Michael Brown in the past. He should be marked and avoided. Please see links below:
“Jesus and movies don’t mix”. Accurate if they mean you can’t serve two masters. But if they mean that things of this world can seperate you from his love, that is lordship. Or if they presume to be your conscience, they are going to far.
“Anyone who can’t die to video games for a season has no right to call Jesus Lord”. Said by Michael Brown in How Saved are We, which Voice of the Martyrs promoted. Both ministries are very heavy on lordship. They think pleasure indulgence is a bad sign of the state of your soul. On the contrary, this statement tells me they don’t trust Jesus.
Chas, I’m not sure to whom Huckleberry was responding.
Already done that, johninnc!
I wonder whom Huckleberry2012 is referring to?
Excellent ! Amen! Great post! God bless you!
Jason and Chas, you have both had an opportunity to express your views in this subject.
I would respectfully request that we move on.
I am not making assumptions about anything you believe. I am just saying that the tripartite view adds an unnecessary complication. So often I hear it offered as an analogy to the Trinity. Three persons in one being is fine, I guess the hymn Holy, Holy, Holy influnces my articulation.
I agree that humans and angels are both spirits. I just don’t see a substance distinction between the spirit of man and the soul of man or why it matters. Spirit and flesh, spiritual and carnal, spiritual and soulish are ways Paul uses to distinguish the two natures of the Christian, and Jesus makes such distinction in his conversation with Nicodemus, so when I read Hebrews, such a distinction is what I expect. Hebrews was written to baby Christians who have trouble grasping elementary things such as what the cross accomplished, so I see no issue with the context.
I don’t know what version you are using, but I Cor 3:15 KJV does say, as by fire. I probably shouldn’t have said, “through”. I agree with you that the fire is not purgatory.
No, I am not relying on a Roman Catholics. I am expressing my disappointment that when I do a search, the only source that brings any clarity to the issue at all is an unsaved Catholic, unless I count a CRI article or CS Lewis, and they too have huge issues.
The tripartite view is a doctrine I never knew. The bipartite view was one I could form as a child, independently of outside sources, before I ever heard of the three Greek morons. No Catholics were needed. The tripartite view is one I would never have known without the influence of the likes of TD Jakes, which influence I do not trust. Then I got on BlackVoices.com (extinct), a forum I had no business being on, where unbelievers were worshiping the sun, while the fake Christians were spouting this trinity in man view, along with other wild nonsense such as throwing oily grapes around, and word of faith blasphemy dominated. And after leaving, I wake up I find that 99% of evangelicals believe this thing that I never knew.
The spirit or soul of man, or whatever you call it, before it is saved, is dead in sin and needs to be quickened. If only the spirit of man (and of course God) knows what is in the man, and the soul doesn’t, you have just made nonsense of the whole notion. I’m pretty sure my soul knows what is in me. I have never once heard this view articulated and not seen confusion follow it, and this example of yours is a case in point.
When I said that the simple view denies neither the body nor the soul, I mean that it avoids the twin heresies of materialism and gnosticism, yet you have a fine way of interpreting my words as being at you. The complicated view sounds gnostic to me, and I reject it, because it draws my mind to esoteric knowledge and away from my first love. I have come to abhor it more than Calvinism.
In my sincere attempt to prove all things, I am convinced that the tripartite idea corrupts from the simplicity of Christ. On the other hand, the dual nature of the Christian has proven absolutely vital to dealing with the confusion of lordship damnation and understanding my position in Christ, and it illuminates many verses.
jasonc65, I’m afraid you’re making several erroneous assumptions that are leading you to disregard key scriptures about the nature of man, such as the clear reference to man’s “spirit” in the passage I mentioned.
Let me address a few things point by point (which is my way of saying,”I’m about to get long-winded.”)
Man does have all three parts when born, but in no way does that idea lead to a denial of the second birth, which involves the indwelling of the Spirit of God and the “quickening” of the believer’s spirit.
That “if” involves an incorrect assumption. I’ve made no such identification. The old nature and the soul are two different concepts. As for the “fire” mentioned, 1st Cor. 3:15 refers to the fire that burns up a person’s corrupt works. Souls are not saved through fire, but through faith in Christ. The fire doesn’t burn the soul, which is sanctified in Christ.
Mmm, that brings in a bit of a straw man. The human spirit is not a “godlike part”, it is the spiritual component of the complete human being. God has created beings that are spirits, but are not God by nature. (They’re known as angels.) God has also created spirits that posses souls and indwell physical bodies. Such are humans.
Forgive me if this seems like quibbling, but actually, God is three Persons in one Being, not vice-versa. Scripture indicates that man is one being with three essential elements to his nature; body, soul and spirit. If that suggests an analogy of the Trinity, so be it. But the doctrine of the tripartite nature of man comes from Scripture, not from analogy.
Well, the law also mentions hands, feet, heads, etc. With that logic we’d have umpteen dozen parts, wouldn’t we? But just because an “attribute” or aspect or part of man is mentioned in Scripture, doesn’t mean it’s relevant to this discussion. The issue here is: Does man have a spirit, is there such a thing as a human spirit? I maintain that there is. Scripture refers to man’s spirit numerous times in both testaments. Here are just a few:
OT: “The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord.” Prov. 20:27
“To him who is humble and of contrite spirit…” Isa. 66:2
NT: “For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit…” Ro. 1:9
“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?” 1Cor. 2:11
There are many more.
Why would you suppose that an adherent of the false gospel of Roman Catholicism would think clearly about anything biblical? (I suppose he told you he knows what’s what?) As an EX-Catholic myself, I can tell you that relying on a Roman Catholic’s interpretation of just about anything in Scripture is a good way to fall into error. The RC understanding of the soul is wrapped up in self-sanctification through rituals. Their interpretation of 1st Cor. 3:13-15 is skewed toward an effort to support the doctrine of Purgatory. I beg you, avoid RC explanations of Scripture, even if they sound good. Especially if they sound good.
“Simpler” does not equal “true”. Besides, most of the complications you’re having trouble with are caused by false assumptions (not to mention RC input). A proper understanding of the existence of the human spirit does not deny the soul or the body nor does it muddle the second birth. As for “philosophical speculation”, that can happen with any doctrine, true or false.
Um, no, it couldn’t, not if words and context have any meaning. The text says clearly “soul and spirit”, not “old nature and new nature”.
Fine, but that says nothing about the spirit of man, which I’m not confusing with the Holy Spirit. You seem to be reading your own assumptions into my statements and Scripture.
I commend your aversion to New Age nonsense, but you’re handicapping yourself severely in your fight against it when you allow yourself to be influenced by RC sources and make unwarranted assumptions based on the conflating of terms. Let Scripture interpret itself, stay away from RC nonsense, and you’ll have a much easier time rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
If that is the definition of man, then man has all three parts when he is born. That could lead to a denial of the second birth if the spirit is the new nature.
If the soul is identified with the old nature, it would not make sense to say that Jesus saves souls. Yet souls are saved as through fire at the bema.
The idea that man by nature has a godlike part in him can lead to mysticism, new age, word of faith, theosis, and other dangerous areas.
God is one being in three persons. Man is nothing like this. This is yet another poor attempt at analogy. The persons of the Godhead are in agreement, but redeemed man’s two natures are at war.
The law mentions heart, mind, soul, and strength. Add body, and we’d have five parts. It seems these terms are referring to attributes rather than parts.
I noticed a Catholic blogger (shock!) who thinks more clearly about this than most evangelicals.
I think a bipartite view is simpler, does not deny the soul or the body, does not muddle the second birth, and does not lead to philosophical speculation. That verse in Hebrews could be referring to the two natures. Being in the Word reminds us of the war raging within.
I notice that the KJV refers to the new nature as the inward man, which makes it clear that the new nature is human and not to be confused with the Holy Spirit. The 1984 NIV had “inner self” in at least one instance, and that is new age lingo.
jasonc65, by “tripartite view” of man, do you mean the doctrine that man’s nature consists of body, soul and spirit?
That’s the definition I’m familiar with. Hebrews 4:12 tells us that the Word of God is “quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,”
That would indicate that the soul and spirit of man are two different things. Added to the body, ya got three. I don’t see how such a view could lead to “damning views”, but maybe you were referring to something else?
Or one who tiptoes through five doctrines of a god of robots. If I don’t hear that works are never enough and that believing the gospel is sufficient, I think that is a false teacher. That video mentioned above blocked comments, lest the truth be heard.
Contending earnestly for the faith once delivered although it might seem futile at times, is never futile, someone is hearing. It is the foolish arguments that some get sidetracked into answering, vs. just trusting the power of God’s Word and answering ‘It is written’. It is so good to find one has come out of error years later because of a conversation with a loadshipper or one who tiptoes through the tulips 🙂
Hey guys thanks for the answers and the advice. Johninnc that was what I was thinking that saying good works will happen after can destroy assurance for believers and also give false assurance for unbelievers who are living the Christian life, Phil, you are definitely right about it being futile to debate with lordshippers. I just need to keep preaching the Gospel.That is also a great analogy with the Helenistic world of the time of Christ. I think I have heard that in that time when one was adopted they could never be disowned.
One video was about false believers. It discussed how it was possible to think you are saved and yet drop into hell. Both believing the gospel and doing good works with the right motivations did not seem to be enough. After five minutes of failing to get to the point, he said that inappropriate words from one’s mouth are evidence of a false believer. Clearly a sign of lordship. Emphasis on self examination was present.
I don’t know how I missed this altogether… thank you for doing this. It highlights some of the many nauseating and condemning effects of unbiblical statements.
I was thinking of how people wonder how they are not growing. One is by not taking heed to His Word. If we are not in His Word we are not going to become disciples, thereby having the truth set us free. But, what about the MANY who think they are in the Word?
They listen to a man week after week. Maybe several times a week. They admire this man, he is likable, they eat with him, they laugh with him, they might even do missions with him. But they don’t realize that the reason they aren’t growing, or are even condemned, is because this man’s gospel is non-existent and his doctrine is flawed. Paul told Timothy to take heed to the doctrine so he could save both himself and his hearers (1 Tim 4:16). He warned all the elders day and night in tears for 3 years and even so, from among them were going to come some wolves (Acts 20:25-32).
Tainted water, contaminated food, whether a little or a lot is still bad. You may take a little longer to pinpoint it if it is only a little contaminated, you may not know why. If the water has a little arsenic in it, might take awhile to make you really sick and it may be hard to figure it out. And the trouble is, once they are of the ones that are blown about by every wind of doctrine, you find some are looking for the next teacher to heap up to tell them what the Bible really says, (and that without again being Bereans or trying to prove all things first)…
Ryan, here’s how I see it to prove that salvation is ALL of Christ and NOT of us at all, ever. It’s in the words “redeemed” and “ransomed.” When He died on the cross he bought us out of the doom and death of the slavery and captivity of our sins. He paid the price for our sins and bought us out of the slave market of doomed sinners, and took us home to have eternal life with his Father. All we are ever required to do, now and forever, is to receive by faith this eternal redemption God offers us. People who want to add to what Christ has done show their own pride and want to add to what Christ has done as though it’s not enough. This is the argument I use with legalists as well as those who have never trusted in Christ for salvation.
I have found that dueling Scripture verses with legalists and LS’ers can be futile. But i think the picture of our salvation as redemption from the slave market where all the redeeming work is of Christ and none from us. In the Helenistic world of Christ’s time when a person was made a son it was permanent: one could not loose being a son even through sin. (example, Luke 15 and the prodigal son.)
One doctrine I find to be confusing is the trinity in man or tripartite view. While not a damning doctrine per se, it seems to me that it could easily lead to other damning views. It is very common among word of faith, but plain evangelicals buy into it too. I noticed that Tony Evans holds that view. I think it is simpler that man is born with a body and soul and a sinful nature and does not have the new nature until he is born again.
unless a soul knows they have eternal life as a present possession that can never be lost. Because it does not depend on the recipient of the Free Gift of eternal life.
Growth does not happen and end up in romans 7 deafted christian faith rest life..
my self personally I keep it simple and just keep proclaiming The Gospel of Grace.
Ryan, teaching that good works are inevitable in the lives of believers inevitably leads to fruit inspection. If we look to ourselves for evidence of eternal life, we have our focus in the wrong place.
The inevitability of good works in the lives of believers would undermine the Biblical doctrine of assurance. We know that we have eternal life based on what we have believed, not based on when the fruits start to show up.
For an interpretation of scripture to be correct, one must be able to answer “yes” to ALL of the following questions:
1. Is it consistent with eternal life by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone?
2. Is it consistent with eternal security?
3. Is it consistent with assurance of eternal life, based on God’s promises alone (i.e., it is not internally-focused on changes in attitudes, behavior, etc.)?
There are many who teach 1 and 2, but stumble on 3.
I have a question and please don’t think I am going into or advocating lordship “salvation”. I know why it is unscriptural for one to say good works are the fruit of salvation. The question is how do I connect it back to the gospel, and letting people know that it is a works based gospel? When people who preach very similar gospels, (true repentance, OSAS), yet one preaches that a Christian will bear at least some fruit after salvation while another preaches that a Christian might not not bear any fruit after salvation, I am having a hard time being able to prove that works coming after salvation is actually works salvation and damnable. Is it because it can cause unsaved people to look at their “fruit” and think if they are working that they are saved? Any answers or any resources will be helpful.Thanks.
I myself don’t like the way that modern versions are under copyright and subject to planned obsolescence. The 2011 NIV is truly a new age perversion.
Thanks for commenting Alan..
I like to use the term King James preferred
to side step King James onlyism.
I don’t mind looking at other versions but I always refer back to King James.
Alan, very interesting points. Some of us here are very skeptical of some of the translations that you mentioned.
Greetings, everyone. At the risk of sounding like a King James Only fanatic, (and it might seem like a trivial point), but I really appreciate the way in which the King James Bible uses the definite article “the” in front of Lord when referring to Jesus. In Matthew 28:6, for example, the angel invites the women,saying “Come, see the place where the Lord lay” (translations based on the Critical Text use the pronoun he). In 1 Corinthians 12:3 the King James Bible states: “. . . no man can say Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost”. When the NIV, ESV, NASB, etc. read “Jesus is Lord” they are not saying the same thing. Here in this verse the King James Bible stresses the importance of the doctrine of the divinity of Christ, and it reminds me of 1 John 4:15: “Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God”.
I could belabor the point and site many other verses, such as Romans 10:9, 1 Peter 3:15, and 1 Corinthians 15:47, but I want to get to the heart of the matter. Lordship Salvation advocates use corrupted texts to advance a false gospel. They gravitate toward versions of the Bible that treat the word Lord as a descriptive noun rather than a proper noun. When they state that you must “make” Jesus Lord in order to be saved what they are really saying is that you are saved by works. How else could a lost sinner supposedly transform Jesus into Lord except by the superiority of their performance relative to other lost sinners?
That’s so true Phil. The theological demands of the so called “Covenant of Grace” (Reformed) forces a unity even where scripture demands division. The “Covenant of Grace” itself subsumes all biblical covenants including the Law thereby eradicating the Israel/Church distinction.
This past month, due to a conversation I was having concerning faith as a gift, I spent quite a lot of time reading and listening to Calvinists apologist (again) to try to follow their logic and interpretation. It was not a great deal of fun and only further convinced me that for Calvinists all text proves what is assumed.
One rock star apologist I listened to took me to Romans 8:7 where he sees “carnally minded” as synonymous with unbelievers only and “spiritually minded” as all believers who have been given faith (gifted faith to be subject to God’s law to please Him). Since carnally minded unbelievers are at enmity with God and unable to please God, unable to attain righteousness on their own (we agree) they are therefore unable to recognize their need for righteousness before God and unable to place trust in Christ for that righteousness (we disagree). He went full straw man asking “can a leopard change his spots…can we do our own heart surgery?”
To him faith pleases God, faith is subject to the law of God, which the flesh (meaning unbeliever only) cannot do. He informed me that I was either with him or I was with Pelagius but I am with neither.
Romans 3:21-24 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
John I had trouble logging in so if this duplicates please delete one, thanks
Indeed. The latter gives me a much better clue where they stand. But then again, many who are lordship think they know grace.
Jason, I don’t know why you think that, but maybe it’s because lots of unsaved people recognize Jesus’ Lordship. See Matthew 7:21.
Today I saw a marquee that said “Jesus is Lord” and if I recall cited Philippians 2:10-11. This is fine, but I would much prefer to see “Jesus saves” and John 3:16. Now, why am I thinking this?
John, I think Scofield may have been saying that under the Law of Moses in the OT there was no great commission as compared to the NT.
Scofield was pretty much pure grace alone. There are exceptions where he slips: he did use the Romans 10 confessing passage as part of saving faith, which is incorrect. But Scofield has been great influence in my life showing the distinction of what is taught in the Bible to those under the Law and to those under Grace, the church. And this is the problem with today’s legalists (Galatianists), LS’ers, Calvinists, Arminians……that is, they co-mingle Scripture teaching with Law and Grace and package it up in
false “faith/works” gospels.
a common pattern i am seeing with false gospels above . They can not say Free Gift of Eternal Life . its always missing in the doctrinal statements and presentation’s
Phil, great correction to a terrible marquee saying.
I wish I could agree with Scofield that “law never had a missionary.” Those fulfilling the Great Commission do not preach law. However, there have been lots of “missionaries” who have taught salvation by grace plus law keeping. Even today, many of the more prominent ministers/evangelists/authors are hucksters selling false gospels of salvation by grace plus law keeping.
I was reading quote #13 above: Law says, “Do and you will live”, Grace says “Live, and you will do” No, grace says, BELIEVE AND YOU WILL LIVE.
Here is a passage from of “Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth, by CI Scofield, Chapter 6.
“Law is God prohibiting and requiring; grace is God beseeching and bestowing. Law is a ministry of condemnation; grace, of forgiveness. Law curses; grace redeems from that curse. Law kills; grace makes alive. Law shuts every mouth before God; grace opens every mouth to praise Him. Law puts a great and guilty distance between man and God; grace makes guilty man nigh to God. Law says, ‘Hate thine enemy’; grace, ‘Love your enemies, bless them that despitefully use you.’ Law says, DO AND LIVE; GRACE, BELIEVE AND LIVE. Law never had a missionary; grace is to be preached to every creature. Law utterly condemns the best man; grace freely justifies to worst. Law is a system of probation; grace, of favor. Law stones an adulteress; grace says, ‘Neither do I condemn three.’ Under law the sheep dies for the shepherd; under grace the Shepherd dies for the sheep.”
fryingpan, it’s great to hear from you.
The interesting thing about the church marquee sayings was that there were a lot of good ones, mixed in with the bad ones, on the same sites. It was as if the purveyors of the sites were oblivious to the contradictory messages.
Great post but I did get rather nauseous reading some of those. I guess that’s better than thinking, “Gee, I don’t see what the big DEAL is!”
Thanks for highlighting that comment. I forgot that I had read it. I left them as politely as possible. They worried I had gone to the devil but did not shun me. They are nice people, but no one is nice enough for God. I can only hope and pray that they are or get saved.
That NBC statement of faith is effectively their creed. They recite it sometimes and study it superficially. There are Calvinistic things in it, including the perseverance of the saints, but they are functionally Arminian. In the SBC, these things would no doubt be discussed and sometimes debated, but there they would just be read without understanding.
Jason, you might be interested in the comment linked below:
I remember being fed in Black Baptist churches “keep on keeping on” and “gotta be 100, 99 won’t do”, implying that eternal life was a reward for persevering and being perfect. I eventually judged them by the content of their doctrine and left them. I was not hearing enough grace. It wasn’t enough assurance that they were singing “At the Cross” and “Nothing but the Blood”. There was no clear distinction between salvation and rewards. I knew one deacon who understood the distinction but never mentioned it. Doctrinal confusion had become a barrier to reconciliation.
This was at the time I was listening to HH and other voices of doubt. I was caught up in race and politics and other things I should have left well enough alone. Even in all this confusion, I knew that rewards are distinct from salvation.
Yep , that’s is a double bind mind control tactic That’s how souls get enslaved into false doctrines
Brian, excellent point and excellent example.
Things that sound “good” can be very dangerous. Especially if they follow something true. Like the phrase “we are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone”. The first part is true, but the second is not.