By johninnc
We recently received an e-mail from one of our readers alerting us of a full-throated denial of the gospel, in favor of the false gospel of Lordship “salvation,” issued by Ray Comfort.
Comfort’s article was entitled THE DAMNABLE HERESY OF RAY COMFORT, By Ray Comfort.
The article’s main thrust is that repentance, in the form of turning from sin, is a requirement for someone to receive eternal life.
I have selected some key excerpts from Comfort’s article. Comfort’s words are in non-bold italics, and my comments are in bold.
Following are his thesis, and his conclusion:
Thesis:
Note the Order
Sinners are to both repent and believe: “Repent, and believe in the gospel” (Mark 1:15). The Apostle Paul preached “Repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 20:21). Note the order of repentance in both of these cases BEFORE faith.
My comment: Repentance is required for salvation, but not in the way that Ray Comfort defines it. In an eternal salvation context, repent means “a change of mind” – from any idea of religion that man may have, to an acceptance of God’s way of salvation in Jesus Christ alone. It does not mean to “turn from sin.”
Conclusion:
Our churches are filled with workers of iniquity (hypocrites) who were told that they merely have to believe in Jesus. For most, there’s never any repentance because they have been given assurance that they are saved without it.
On Judgment Day they will understand the sobering words of Jesus when He said, “…unless you repent you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3).
My comment: The “hypocrites” who were told that they merely have to believe in Jesus were told that by Jesus himself.
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
In addition to scriptural references, Comfort provided extensive quotes from such “luminaries” as Charles Spurgeon and John Wesley to support his false claims – even though they had radically different theologies. They have one thing in common – SALVATION BY WORKS!
Examples:
One catalyst for the teaching that repentance is unnecessary for salvation is the belief that repentance is merely “a change of mind.” This erroneous teaching is nothing new. Spurgeon had to deal with it in his day:
“Apparently they interpret repentance to be a somewhat slighter thing than we usually conceive it to be, a mere change of mind, in fact. Now, allow me to suggest to those dear brethren, that the Holy Ghost never preaches repentance as a trifle; and the change of mind or understanding of which the gospel speaks is a very deep and solemn work, and must not on any account be depreciated. Moreover, there is another word which is also used in the original Greek for repentance, not so often I admit, but still is used, which signifies ‘an after-care,’ a word which has in it something more of sorrow and anxiety, than that which signifies changing one’s mind. There must be sorrow for sin and hatred of it in true repentance, or else I have read my Bible to little purpose.”
My comment: Spurgeon had to “deal with it in his day,” because it is true. We are not saved by hating sin, or being sorry for sin. And, regarding Spurgeon having “read my Bible to little purpose”: If the shoe fits…
John Wesley believed that there is no justification without repentance:
“God does undoubtedly command us both to repent, and to bring forth fruits meet for repentance; which if we willingly neglect, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all: therefore both repentance, and fruits meet for repentance, are, in some sense, necessary to justification.”
My comment: This is works for salvation. If we willingly neglect producing fruits, Wesley says we can’t expect to be justified. The Bible says we are justified by grace, through faith in Christ.
The scriptures that Ray Comfort did use were mostly misused.
Examples:
Repentance is a turning away from sin:
“Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, IN TURNING AWAY EVERY ONE OF YOU FROM HIS INIQUITIES” (Acts 3:26).
My comment: the context of Acts 3:26 is not that “repentance is a turning away from sin.” This verse has to do with the order of the gospel being preached first to the Jewish people (a concept we also see in Romans 1:16).
Note that it is Jesus turning people away from their iniquities (i.e. taking away their sins) – not the people doing it themselves.
If repentance means “turning away from sin,” AND it precedes faith in Christ, THEN there would be NO ROLE for Jesus in turning people away from their iniquities.
This is the crux of why Lordship “salvation” is a false gospel. It is trying to be saved by keeping the law (turning from sins means to stop breaking the law).
Galatians 2:21: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
The unsaved must to be sorry for their sins because “…godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation…” (2 Corinthians 7:10). Repentance leads to salvation.
My comment: this passage was written to Christians. It has NOTHING to do with repentance unto eternal life.
On Judgment Day they will understand the sobering words of Jesus when He said, “…unless you repent you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3).
My comment: this passage means that people who think they will escape hell because they are relatively better than others need to repent (change their mind) about that false notion and trust in Christ alone.
In case there was ever any doubt, Ray Comfort is wrong on the doctrine of repentance. He is a doctrinaire Lordship “salvationist” who should be marked and avoided.
If you would like some good information on repentance, click here: Repentance
Notes From A Retired Preacher 
I recently encountered a street preacher who had a big sign saying “Repent (turn from sin)” displayed prominently in the largest font. I heard him say “the wages of sin is death” numerous times, but didn’t hear the rest of the verse. He also said that God hates everyone until they become a believer.
I know Ray Comfort has a how-to book on street preaching, but I’m not sure if this guy was one of his adherents or not. In any case, this guy’s false gospel, and Ray Comfort’s false gospel are deadly spiritual street drugs.
Holly, thanks for your extensive documentation of Jacob Prasch’s errors.
I’m sorry that you had to put up with his abuse.
Dennis Klopper:
I have had personal interaction with Jacob Prasch/Moriel many years back. We had a Bible Berean group on FB, and I guess some of his website admins were in there. We were discussing two things. His stance on rapture (he is prewrath) and a Youtube link that was provided where he said Christ comes in the character of Satan and used the word rape for the base Latin word of rapture etc., it was really disturbing.
In addition, I had been researching his ‘midrash’ teachings for the prior six months. It’s extremely divisive and brings in extrabiblical teachings all based on a couple words that depending on translation may be seen as the word midrash. Trouble with midrash (story telling) is that it is not the Word of God. He thinks if Gentiles can’t understand midrash, they can’t understand more than the basics of Scripture, totally negating the work of the Spirit and His Word. And so in my research, I took lots of screen shots etc., and started discussing some of the things he said. At that point, his people started defending him (very vehemently) and many comments were posted (in the hundreds and hundreds), his website was taken down for a couple of weeks, and they continued arguing (too long in my estimation) in our group.
I was called a liar by Prasch, and he called down ‘Christ’s swift judgment on the liar, whoever that may be’. (Presumably that would have been me).
Long story short, he is a railer, and I’ve seen it so many times. He is definitely loadship (lordship) in his teachings (likely from his Pentecostal background), and thinks he will be heard for his many words. He also leans on the Jewish part, and exalts himself as having more understanding than Gentiles. He is a definite mark and avoid.
Dennis, I have reviewed our complete comment history for references to Jacob Prasch and we do not recommend him.
Among other things, he has reportedly condemned “cheap grace” and insisted on “evidence of salvation,” which we think undermines the gospel.
We are glad that you find our ministry to be helpful.
What do you have to say about. Jacob Prasch of Moriel ministries.
He talks a lot about midrash, and an interseal, not pre-trib rapture?
I find his messages somewhat confusing.
Thank you for this invaluable ministry.
God bless.
Dennis Klopper.
Hobbs, we are glad you are here! And, I agree that knowing we are eternally secure in Him is wonderful.
Johninnc, yes it’s right to maintain a firm stand over these errors. I’d still be having regular torments if it wasn’t for the relief I found here. We can always claim Christ as our Saviour; at any time, in any condition. That’s the wonderful news!
Hobbs, I hope that Billy Graham believed in Jesus as Savior (not just helper) at some point during his life. That is certainly a possibility. However, I respectfully disagree that Billy Graham was “as clear as mud.” That implies some murkiness, or lack of clarity. NO! Billy Graham CLEARLY taught a false gospel at many junctures, including in his books.
Further, what the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association teaches NOW is a false gospel, as does Franklin Graham. I would challenge the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association to tell us if Billy Graham believed and consistently taught a different gospel than what they now proclaim through their ministry. And, if so, which one is correct? Until that time comes, I will continue to say, unabashedly, that Billy Graham taught a false gospel.
From the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association: (bold emphasis mine)
To receive Christ you need to do four things:
1. ADMIT your spiritual need. “I am a sinner.”
2. REPENT and be willing to turn from your sin.
3. BELIEVE that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross.
4. RECEIVE, through prayer, Jesus Christ into your heart and life.
From Calvary Community Church, Tampa (pastor Ralph “Yankee” Arnold): (bold emphasis mine)
Many teach repentance for salvation incorrectly by including some form of human effort or righteousness, such as willingness to turn from sin, or turning from sin. This is heresy and has confused many people because it adds works to salvation.
Shortly after BG died I heard Yankee Arnold say that he had known to BG to be ‘crystal clear on the gospel’, but at other times he was ‘as clear as mud’. So perhaps he had believed at some point and then become confused later on, like a lot of us? Just a thought.
PhilR – you hit the nail on the head.
Billy Graham’s own teaching is what condemned him in the end. I remember him saying that Mother Teresa would make it into the pearly gates (mentioning ‘St. Peter) before him. Obviously his knowledge of his salvation was based on what he had or had not done. Very sad.
Jay according to your salvation formula one must surrender and turn from all his sins. Have you honestly done that, completely and perfectly? To really forsake and “repent’ of ALL your sins means ALL of them from the day you turned over your new leaf. And according to your gospel of salvation you must be perfect from the moment you accepted Christ till you die. When you start calling us hypocrites maybe you had better looking the mirror. Maybe you have not done enough repenting and you better get on your endless repenting and works treadmill to prove yourself to God and maybe, maybe if you can keep yourself squeaky and pristine clean of sins from now on, maybe God will let you slip into heaven some day.
Or, as John said, you can simply accept the free gift of salvation Christ offers you thru His death for all your sins, his burial, and his resurrection. (Eph 1:13-14)
Jay, you know that Peter was called a hypocrite for acting like the rest of the Jews when they were in town (keeping the law).
Repenting does not = turning from sin. All of us think turning from sin in our lives is part of walking in the Spirit vs. the lust of the flesh.
Be careful with accusing falsely, the enemy has a way of accusing the brethren by using others to do so. In a way you are condemning yourself. Have you surrendered all? What sins do you not admit? Maybe ask your wife if you are married.
As far as the ‘false convert’? I’d also be concerned about maybe calling one of His a ‘false convert’. I never saw the disciples do that with those they thought were very carnal even.
So I too would like to know, do you know whether or not you will go to be with Him when you die?
How will you justify yourself before Him?
Jay, there is nothing at this site that should have led you to believe that we are “offended” by the idea of turning from sins. However, whether one turns from his sins, or not, has no bearing as to whether or not he has eternal life.
We are trying to make clear that no one mistakenly believes that turning from sin is required in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. You see, if it did, then eternal life wouldn’t really be a gift. It would be a trade.
What exactly do I plan on doing for all eternity? Being with the Lord, along with everyone else who has believed in Jesus as Savior.
I hope you are among us, but your comment indicates that you don’t believe the gospel.
Jay, whether you love your sin or hate it, if you have never believed in Jesus as your Savior, I hope that you will. I have prayed for you.
You do not seem to understand the gospel message. I invite you to read the booklet linked below so that you may gain a better understanding of how to have eternal life:
Click to access English-Display-Pkg-2014.pdf
all you lousy hypocrites so offended by the idea of repenting and turning from your filthy sins, what exactly do you plan on doing for all eternity? if you claim to be christian then you surrendered your old ways and now live for christ!! if you still love your sins then you were never saved, you’re a false convert.
Great comment Phil!!
Phil, you make a great point. What led us to believe is not the issue, but whether or not we believe.
Ray Comfort, erroneously, insists on what I call “process conversion” or “cause of conversion” . I other words, it is the process or cause of conversion as well as faith in the gospel. Something caused all of us to believe or have faith; but it’s not what caused us to believe and receive salvation or saying the right words in the right order that saves us; it is only our faith in the gospel that saves us.
RC falsely insists that faith is just too simple; that personal redemption must have faith accompanied by a whole process of sorrow and forsaking sins, commitment to a godly life to be worthy of salvation. They call this by their reinvented false theological term “repentance” which they have twisted around from the original Greek meaning used in Scripture. They have over the centuries, made a word simply meaning, “a change of mind” into their invented process to shame, to scare,and beat people over the head to get on their endless salvation treadmill–Lordship Salvation, aka loadship salvation.
Johninnc/Keith
Yes, Ray Comfort and other loadshippers such as Washer, use that passage spoken to believers in 2 Cor 7, and as they do with so many passages, they twist it to speak to eternal salvation, vs. the salvation/deliverance of these believers addressed there.
Their sorrow or regret falls flat reading in Acts, we see multiple types of responses. Stoic, joy, covetousness (Simon) and also sorrow that did not reproduce any salvation. Acts 2, 5 and 7 speaks to the truth cutting or piercing their hearts but only in chapter 2 did they respond by believing. In chapter 5 they sought to kill them after hearing the truth, in chapter 7, they also sought to kill Stephen and stopped their ears from hearing any more.
Keith, that seems like a reasonable interpretation.
I think that the idea that one must be sorry for one’s sins to receive, possess or have assurance of eternal life is what Paul called “sorrow of the world” which “worketh death” in 2 Cor. 7:10.
FYI, we received an email today warning of a Ray Comfort article at a creation web page in which Ray Comfort insists that one must have regret and sorrow for sin and manifest a changed life in order to be saved/show evidence of eternal life.
It is a great warning to continue to avoid Ray Comfort’s false gospel teaching and any websites that promote it.
I just linked this article, this is one that people need to read. Comfort is less under cover and more blatant with his additions to the gospel. He also has terrible associations himself. He is open to anyone and everyone who will promote him.
Comfort-less….
Bobbie Jo, true, one said, “I feel honored that He chose me”…
So the other one should feel dishonored, that no matter what, they cannot come to Him….
Funny, I came to read this by Ray Comfort again, have seen some stronger comments by Ray as time goes past regarding stopping sinning. I guess it’s why he has no problem doing a t.v. show with Joyce Meyer (she too thinks she’s sinless) and Reinhard Bonnke.
Interesting to look back on Heidi’s comments, and sad in that as she’s out there on FB as a ‘Christian’ she has a similar style to the STOP SINNING street preachers, and there is no good news preached. Ray Comfort has no good news either, for although he doesn’t come out as a Calvinist, and also quotes Arminians, he believes faith is the gift in Eph 2:8-9 and that repentance is as well. Funny they don’t even make eternal life the gift as they have to ‘persevere’ even there they have their own works.
They preach condemnation, so people think they are not false teachers because they don’t ‘tickle people’s ears’. Ah, but they do. It is in man to be proud, to think they are good, to think they are above others. This tickles the itching ears of the religious Pharisees, who have God’s testimony of His Son right in front of them, but they will not come to Him that they might have life. They shut up the kingdom of heaven to others with their mini-accuser of the brethren speeches and their fingers pointed at the audience in judgment (some of them I believe have atrophied fingers)…
May we somehow show people a different way, and let others know that this is not the good news they are preaching. They are preaching a filthy rag, man-centered, self-righteous false gospel… May God have mercy on them if He is willing.
How one can get Calvinism out of studying the scriptures is beyond me. What doesn’t make sense, as John pointed out, the followers of this false doctrine continue to come at others as though it’s our fault. Plus why even witness to others the gospel of Jesus Christ at all? We don’t have a choice in the matter. His Word even states He is NO respecter of persons. In my opinion this is the most prideful false doctrine as people feel somehow ‘special’ that God has chosen them. This creates a major puffing up of themselves which brings out the most arrogant speech I have seen. Thus the posting of Heidi. Now, I don’t know her personally but the doctrine she carries is NOT of God so anything spoken by her in views of scripture is flawed. I will continue to pray as only He can open up hearts and ears. Nothing is impossible for Him.
And Curtis you are absolutely right. I have never known Holly to speak so forcefully towards one but it is easily seen to be out of love and His Truth. The only truth that matters. Holly I thank you for your discernment in bringing this to all oir attention.
Love in Christ
Bobbie Jo
amen johninc
for me i discovered that groaning of faith they call it. turned out to be me trying to earn God’s favor . freedom came when i discovered by God’s word that Jesus desires to live His life through me. and finally entered the faith rest life. all them years i was tormenting myself. the enemy of our souls was working the ends against the middle.
Curtis, this woman denies that man has free will, among other errors.
As our friend Jim Floyd recently said: For me it appears that any church that thinks that mankind cannot believe the gospel without God making them (granting faith as a gift to a pre-selected few) will inevitably end up with a false gospel and Galatianism at best for sanctification should any actually saved people attend and hear the messages.
It never ceases to amaze me that people who think we have no free will argue with us. We are just doing what their god has decided we should do. Why don’t they take it up with him?
Heidi Carico
don’t know who you are Heidi but can tell by your post something is wrong.
I have been witnessing Holly on expreacherman and Her blog redeemingmoments.com deliver sound bi biblical doctrine that she gleaned from studying the scriptures for herself . She also gives sound biblical exortation’s and encourages soul’s in Christ Jesus.
Now for Holly to bring you to the throne of Grace with very strong rebuke . Hedi You have some serious spiritual issues I pray you would seek Jesus for healing and restoration in the fellowship of the beloved.
most of us here have escaped the madness of weak to false gospel’s I pray the same for you . I do know the administartors will not tolorate at all false doctrine . Myself and thankful for people like Holly and johninc with very sharp discernment to catch souls like you with false doctrine.
1Jn_1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Oh my! I see what you are referring to, Holly. Unfortunately. I now wish I had no idea.
I pray we will all strive to please Him. It’s better to hold the tongue than say something in a heated state. We will all stand in front of our Creator and have to give account for our actions as well as our words.
Thanks for the heads up, Holly. I had no idea of this individual. How sad!
Holly, not at all. I know that you follow the Biblical pattern of marking and avoiding false teachers.
Heidi’s doctrine is not really any different from any other works for salvation doctrinaire – she is just more ardent than most in proclaiming it.
You are right – she is all over the internet, sharing her false doctrine with anyone who will give her the time of day.
Galatians 2:4-5:
[4] And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
[5] To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
I suppose you are all surprised to see me speak so sharply to someone I have watched decimate people with her false teaching. May the Lord rebuke her. With God all things are possible.
Heidi Carico – I have seen you all over facebook sinning with your mouth, so have you continued to sin? I have watched these foolish arguments you have had with people, and so I would suggest by what 1 John 1 says, you are still sinning.
4 Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. 5 Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things. See how great a forest a little fire kindles! 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. 7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. 8 But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. James 3:4-8
You have not stopped sinning Heidi, and if you say you have, you have lied, and break one law, you break them all. But knowing Jack, he would have us pray for you. But the Word would also. And it would also have us mark and avoid your teaching, and strongly rebuke you in public for your lawkeeping and your accursed gospel.
i have a paper on this but will post a link to the #1 sermon of all time (in my mind).
Heidi, I’m entirely with John on this. Jack was a dear brother to us in Christ and has spent his life dedicated to bringing others to a clear understanding of the gospel. Please be careful speaking so harshly against someone when not resting on His Word properly.
Please understand 1 John 3:9 you are using to show one doesn’t sin? It states “Whosoever is born of God doth NOT commit sin; for his seed REMAINETH in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God.”
Just reread this verse to yourself without any preconceived notions from man. This verse states once they are born of God they CANNOT sin nothing about willful…..this is cause of Christ. We recieve His Spirit which does not sin, ever, not ONE time. Then read CANNOT sin. No sin….willful or otherwise. Besides ever sin is willful on our part. As John stated please don’t be deceived.
Romans 6:15 is simply stating a believer should not live in a sinful way. Nothing more, nothing less. Don’t add what’s simply not there. Besides, as you state one doesn’t sin after becoming a believer…..then ask yourself why would this verse state SHALL we sin? If it were not possible why would that be there? Cause it can and does happen. We are all sinners by nature. When one becomes a believer our flesh nature does not go away. His Spirit and our flesh battle so its an inside battle. We need to determine which we listen to. Not to be saved or stay saved.
I’m terribly worried that you may be relying too much on man and not enough independent study on your own with God. These “preachers” out there are very confused and confusing the masses along with them. I pray you will remain here and read. There are many articles that will help. Grab your bible and look into EVERYTHING for yourself.
Please, Heidi…I beg you not to get involved with what “religion” is. Salvation doesn’t come by religion but by our Savior Jesus Christ.
Jack was a wonderful teacher of His Word and would love to be able to help you but he has gone to be with the Lord. We all miss him but trust we will see him again one day. Believers in Him KNOW they will be in heaven cause they are putting their trust where it belongs…….with Him. Examine your doctrine. It’s not of God. It’s of man. And trust me, I know it’s horrifying realizing how all are telling you that you need to not sin. You are losing your footing and foundation and it scares you and shakes you to your core which causes the hostile nature you seemed to have in your comment. My sincerest apologies if that is not the case. I’m sorry but you have no foundation cause yoi don’t understand the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I’ll be praying for you.
Heidi, I generally like to welcome new commenters to our site, but I can readily detect quite a bit of animosity on your part to what we teach.
Jack passed away in January, but he spent his life preaching the gospel.
Your choice of verses is interesting, but your interpretation is flawed.
John 3:9 does not say that believers don’t continue to sin. It says that the regenerated (new man) cannot sin. Please see our “Difficult Verses” section for an interpretation of this verse that is consistent with grace.
If you think that you only sin “accidentally,” you are deceiving yourself.
Romans 6:15 is an admonition to Christians to not sin. If Christians never “willingly” or “willfully” sinned, then NONE of the verses telling us not to would make any sense.
For example, Hebrews 12:1 would say “…and the sin which doth so easily ACCIDENTALLY beset us…”
AND Romans 6:12 would read “Let not sin therefore ACCIDENTALLY rein in your mortal body…”
The point of Hebrews 10:26-27 is that Jesus’ once for all sacrifice covers all sins – willful or not. If it didn’t, none of us would be saved – not even you, Heidi!
It is not God’s will that Christians continue to sin, or that they be conformed to the world. Rather, it is His will that we be transformed by a renewing of our minds.
Heidi, could it be that while reading and studying scripture, you have never had anyone explain the gospel to you?
Please consider reading the booklet linked below:
Click to access the-gospel.pdf
Please note that we are available to help you with God’s Word. But, you will not be given the opportunity to promote doctrine on this site that is contrary to the gospel or the associated doctrine of grace.
I’m glad this “preacher” is retired. But I suspect he did much damage to his congregations before he retired. Jesus didn’t die so we could continue to sin…especially since we were already sinning before we even acknowledged him! Scripture is VERY clear that born again Christians don’t continue to sin BECAUSE God’s seed is in us as 1 Jn 3:9, Heb. 10:26-27, Rom. 6;15 and many other verses say. It’s GOD who MAKES us holy and keeps us from willful sinning. That’s the process of sanctification and it’s done by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT, not the human will.
Amen Holly
would also like to ad is we are told in scriptures to have
humbleness of mind
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
to have humbleness of mind , I myself have not arrived anywhere BUT I know I have a firm foundation I am standing on. I myself can easily get off center of the TRUTH of the Gospel that is were the enemy of our souls is focused on and need to remind myself daily what the Truth of The Gospel Is . That is what I love about expreacherman I am challenged here to study scripture for myself no other ist, ism, or ite, does that but they desire for you to learn their system of thought.
when I hear “Open my mind” my guard goes up and I am ready to fight to defend the Truth of the Gospel
Holly, Paul also spoke of the wrath of God throughout Romans.
BeholdaSon – in 2 Pet 2, Peter most certainly did speak of hell, and the day of judgment, and why hell was originally made. When we cross reference, we can see which hell that is that is spoken of, it is reserved for the demons, the devil, and those who are ungodly and that is the judgment reserved for them. Jesus is none of the above.
I too am really disappointed that you would suggest a false gospel from us. I will tell you that Paulline dispensationalism leads to wrong dividing of Scripture. The New Testament (new Covenant) went into effect at the cross, at the death of the Testator, Jesus Christ (Heb 9:15-28). There will also see Christ entered the Holy Place to sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat, that He entered into Heaven itself (vs. 24).
Remember, Peter first was appointed by God to bring the good news to the Gentiles at the first.
Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Peter also said a couple verses later, that we were saved in the same manner as the Jews.
Paul was chosen to bring the gospel to Gentiles, Kings and Jews.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel.
And in 1 Cor 15:11, we see that all the apostles preached the same gospel.
In Eph 3, Paul said the dispensation of grace, the revelation of the mystery was made known and given to him, however, he also says, it was revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel, and what Paul should also do, is preach among the Gentiles, and to make things known to the church.
The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, so judgment is the Great White Throne judgment, and we see the answer there, and again in Matt 25.
We need to be careful with our words about others, especially any accusations against brethren, for our desire is to uphold the truth, and to be examined by Scriptures, not by others assumptions about us.
Grace and peace to you ❤
beholdason
Is it wrong to ask why we preach a different Gospel that Paul and Peter never preached in Acts??
Does this bother you at all?
Yes this bothers me ALOT that you are suggesting this AND discern that you got that line of Thought process from Pauline dispensationalism.
This is were I miss Jack Weaver He was a master at speaking the TRUTH in Love . I do like his tag line “Not balanced but Honest”
praying for you beholdason that you find THE TRUTH of the gospel and hope like me you don’t get tossed around by all the waves of doctrine out there on the internet . I feel i have been down all the rabbit holes out there until landing on The TRUTH of The Gospel
beholdason, I’m sorry if I have errantly concluded that your mind is made up on the matter of whether or not there is an eternal hell. I had closed this discussion previously (March 19), and you have reopened it. Consider it re-closed.
I don’t know why you persist in discussing this issue, after you had agreed to discontinue discussing it here three weeks ago.
You said: Is it wrong to ask why we preach a different Gospel that Paul and Peter never preached in Acts??
Does this bother you at all?
My comment: NO! The fact that you think we are preaching a different Gospel that Peter and Paul never preached in Acts is what bothers me. WE DO NOT TEACH A DIFFERENT GOSPEL THAN THAT TAUGHT BY PETER AND PAUL IN ACTS. IF YOU THINK WE DO, YOU SHOULD HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH US.
Proverbs 3:5: Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
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Following are excerpts from some of your previous comments on this matter:
Due diligence about this issue of eternity (not saints but unbelievers) is AS important as Lordship Salvation, if not more important because God’s very nature is at stake. How we and others view God changes our understanding of the Gospel.
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I don’t see Paul preaching hellfire in his sermons. If anyone finds hell fire in Paul’s messages please let me know where as most of Christianity preaches hellfire as the “Good News”.
It ain’t good news.
The Good News is:
For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son that whosever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
The issue here is what does ‘perish’ mean.
My guess is it doesn’t mean everlasting life.
Does it really mean everlasting perish?
Like you, I question these things.
I think it’s called being an honest Christian, instead of just swallowing everything you’re told.
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I understand all you mention as that’s what I was told to believe. But I’m still reading the Bible and checking these things as to me, I cannot understand how Jesus paid the price for all mankind’s sins… He took the wrath of God upon Himself for ALL mankind. But later on mankind who disbelieve this fact will have to take their own sins (despite Jesus already paying for them once), but this time instead of only spending 3 days in the grave… they have the added benefit of burning for all time. Does this add up to you?
As much as I dislike ISIS and child molesters and chai tea drinkers, I struggle to understand how they will have to go to everlasting torment when Jesus suffered death ONCE for ALL at the Cross.
Oh John John, I sure hope not. I hope those memories are wiped away, but it does propel me to remember with soberness, what people face who reject the living God, and His Son who He sent to die for them.
Hi John,
“We respect your position on this matter, and you are welcome to try to convince others – but you will have to find a forum other than ExPreacherMan to do that.”
I don’t have any position on this matter, nor am I trying to convince anyone of anything. I haven’t formed any conclusion and am simply asking questions.
As I’m currently reading through the book of Acts, I am yet to find Paul or Peter warning unbelievers about Hell fire in their Gospel sermons.
Is it reasonable for me as a sincere Christian to wonder and ask why this is so?
Do you not wonder this same thing?
Is it wrong to ask why we preach a different Gospel that Paul and Peter never preached in Acts??
Does this bother you at all?
Hi Curtis,
“may I ask you a question the path of questions you are asking here did you learn this of yourself or did you learn from another?”
What have I learned?
I’m simply asking questions.
I don’t claim to know anything, I’m simply questioning things and trying to be open minded and allow God to guide me in His truth. I believe the Scriptures are trustworthy. I’m not so gracious with the teachings of men.
Is everything you believe now a result of your own study of the Scriptures? Or have you been learning from men?
If you were a JW or Mormon, you’d want to be open minded enough to question ALL things.
Why do we as Evangelicals assume we don’t have to do the same with ALL doctrines?
– I’m simply asking questions honestly.
I trust you’re doing the same and not adopting doctrinal systems from men who SEEM trustworthy and honest.
Holly, no offense was meant with my comment. I wasn’t finger pointing at you or John specifically. Just saying that we need to apply the meanings of words consistently and I was seeking to find out whether Hades means Grave in all ten instances in the NT, or not.
I truly did not many any offense. Please forgive me if I have upset you.
I think my time here has come to a close. Thanks.
I remember an old preacher saying “Do I believe in an eternal Hell? Yes I do, with a sob and a shudder.” A painful reality to face up to, if not for ourselves (we’ve all wrestled with that) but for others we know and love. I wonder if some of the tears God will wipe away are those of our grief at the eternal loss of others…
Sorry Johninnc – I am to your comment and will discontinue discussing it. God bless everyone to continue to seek the truth in His Word….
BeholdaSon “It is not playing fair with the Scriptures (in my opinion), to say Hell in Acts 2 means ‘grave’ but then in every other reference where Hades is translated as Hell, to interpret it as ‘eternal torment’. It either means Grave, or it means Hell (wherever that is, and whether or not it’s eternal torment is another issue).”
Dear friend — I hope you would understand that I would never ever play with Scriptures. I tremble at His Word, and I don’t take it lightly.
It might help to mention that in the Old Testament, Sheol translated both hell and grave is about half and half, 31 to 31, and so if you look at the actual meaning of the word itself, it’s kind of like the difficulty with the word ‘repent’, it wasn’t translated as it should have been, but I suggest once you see the meanings, you might understand how ‘getting’ the realm of the dead, and then we know the righteous will not be abandoned to the burning fire, look into the meaning of the words in the Strong’s concordance, I think that also might help a little.
Before those who were in the grave (conscious), abode of the dead, Sheol, before the cross, they were waiting to be washed in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 1:5), that is when Jesus took those spirits to heaven with Him.
BeholdaSon, I think you may have misunderstood. I said ‘sometimes’ Hades was translated for Grave, or the abode of the dead (I believe) and never suggested we do anything except take each meaning and think of it as the realm of the dead and determine if it is spoken of as the lake of fire or as Paradise or as ‘present with the Lord’ (we know He is now in heaven).
Where we see before the cross, there was one destination for believers and one for nonbelievers, just as with Lazarus and Abraham, in Paradise, we have a picture of the beloved disciple reclining on Jesus, leaning on Him at the Passover supper.
Sheol or Hades or Gehenna is where people go as they await the resurrection. Resurrection to what?
We know believers go to heaven to be with the Lord — absent from the body, present with the Lord. So our bodies come later at the rapture.
But at the Great White Throne Judgment (for non-believers) we know whoever does not have his/her name written in the Lamb’s book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. That WAS prepared for the devil and his angels, but we also see in Matt 25, at the end of the 7 year tribulation, BEFORE the millennium, that those who are accursed will also be thrown into the eternal fire. Revelation tells us that so will the devil and the beast and the false prophet, and it says they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
I don’t know if that helps, but it took me a little while to get it, I remember David Reagan teaching annihilationism as many of the Pentecostal branches prefer that since they are afraid they can walk away from their salvation, and they don’t think it fair justice to be in a lake of fire eternally, if one’s soul wasn’t eternal, they’d die instantly upon hitting a lake of fire. Whether parable or truth, it wouldn’t be honest to suggest that man was conscious in the flames talking across the divide.
Hope that helped a little.
I love your soul beholdason and enjoy your fellowship on this blog
I have been following your comments and to me it is good to struggle for Truth.
may I ask you a question the path of questions you are asking here did you learn this of yourself or did you learn from another ?
Joh 18:34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
beholdason, I have no idea whether the comma in Luke 23:43 was in the original greek text. What you are asking is did Jesus say “I tell you today…”, as in “today I am telling you.”
That way, the verse could mean that the thief went to be with Jesus in paradise, but not necessarily on that day. That would help to dismiss the teaching that there were two sides of Hades, which would help in constructing the argument that there is no eternal hell for non-believers.
There is a website where I have read this argument before, and all the supporting arguments about the Luke 16 account being a parable, etc., all in support of the argument that there is no eternal hell for non-believers.
beholdason, I think you are trying to find a way to reopen the discussion of whether there is an eternal hell for nonbelievers. You expressed your doubts about an eternal hell some time back, and we entertained the discussion.
But, we stated the position of this site that non-believers go to an eternal hell, after having explained why, and we asked to discontinue discussion of it.
We respect your position on this matter, and you are welcome to try to convince others – but you will have to find a forum other than ExPreacherMan to do that.
Luke 23:43 says this:
“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise”.
John, is the comma between the words THEE and TODAY in Luke 23:43 in the original Greek text?
Is Luke 23:43 and Luke 16 the only two passages which are used to justify the doctrine of the ‘two compartments of Hades’? (asking honestly)
Has anyone here ever questioned WHY we all assume the soul of man is immortal?
Any Bible verses which are clear on this?
Romans 2:7 says:
“To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:”
-notice anything in the above verse? Who is immortality AND eternal life for?
– Why mention immortality if all souls are immortal, regardless of belief in Jesus?
(honest questions).
Preston, I’m not disagreeing with you that when Jesus said, “it is finished” then it truly was completed and His blood paid that price. I don’t for a second think that Jesus needed to be tortured beyond losing His precious BLOOD for our sakes.
That has nothing to do with where he spent his 3 days prior to his body being raised from the dead.
The Gospel is good news about the resurrection and what it means for sinners whose wages are death. The Book of Acts throughout is all about Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection AND the hope of the resurrection of the dead. Undeniable that OUR resurrection is THE HOPE.
Eternal life.
The assumption is that unbelievers have an immortal soul.
Where does the Bible teach this clearly, without reading assumptions into the text.
Anyone have any verses?
a thought to consider…
also might add that Jesus last words on the cross were “it is finished”. The sin debt had been paid.
If the sin debt had been paid THEN why would Jesus have to go to hell (torment) to pay for sin again (or some more). it would not have been finished.
beholdason, we must ALL strive to not adhere to teachings from men that do not line up with God’s word. Like Curtis said, context is key.
I don’t know how someone could read Luke 23:43 and conclude that Jesus went anywhere bad.
Paradise was promised to the thief on the cross THAT DAY. Jesus was there with him. Jesus was raised from the dead on the third day.
If Paradise were the same as hell (no separation), then both thieves on the cross would have gone to the same place. There would be nothing special about Paradise, and no need for Jesus to have told the believing thief that he would go there THAT DAY.
and to be fair to RB and our friend Joyce Meyer…
I can understand how they can conclude Jesus went to hell. (their understanding of hell).
If any person simply reads the text about Jesus going to Hell (and believes/teaches it)… instead of interpreting Hades as a two compartment place for the dead you can’t blame them for being wrong, but rather for not understanding the two compartments of Hades teaching.
The issue is… is that correct?
Most Christians wouldn’t know how to check what the different words for Hell are in the original text.
My guess is that if they were equipped with this knowledge, they’d wonder why they’re paying someone else to find out for them.
Thanks for explaining your perspective John. I wasn’t making an accusation against you. Simply stating that there needs to be consistency with applying Greek words to their English equivalents. If Repent means Change of mind in one place. It cannot mean ‘Turn from sin’ elsewhere. Same with Hades. Whatever it is, it cannot be multiple things. (in my mind, anyway).
It seems that there are many within IFB circles who see Hades as having ‘two compartments’. Torment and Paradise.
To be honest, I have no idea how anyone would come to this conclusion from simply reading the Bible but I’m open that if it’s true… God will show me this through my Bible reading, without having to trust works of men and traditions.
So in light of the above, Jesus DID go to Hell (Hades), but the ‘Paradise’ compartment, and NOT the ‘Torment’ compartment.
Am I understanding your perspective correctly?
Also, what texts are used to support the two compartments of Hades theory?
Sincerely asking.
Because I’ve just been reading something from Max Younce which suggests Luke 16 (the Lazarus/rich man account) is the ‘go to text’ to support the two compartments of Hades teaching.
I’m sincerely hoping there are more texts (if not proof texts) instead of people using just this one portion of Scripture to support their Hell has two compartments belief.
“In your opinion, is it safe to cross out the 10 or so words translated as Hell in the English KJV (from the Greek word Hades) and write Grave next to it for clarity when reading?”
maybe If you speak fluent Greek , reading verses above and below or so and grasp the Context and Content surrounding the word Hell and grave. other than that myself would stick to scriptures and read verses above and below or so to grasp the context and content and continue to seek God for wisdom and understanding.
Curtis
beholdason, let me try again. I cannot speak for others, but let me assure you that I am not “playing” with scripture. Like everyone else here, I am in good conscience trying my best to understand it.
I do not know Greek, or any other languages besides English. But, I looked up the Greek for Acts 2:27;31. It is “adhn” (hades). In Revelation 20:13-14, the Greek word used is “adhv” (hades).
Following is my understanding:
For believers:
The souls of those who died prior to Christ’s resurrection were in a holding place – Paradise. The use of the term “hell” (hades), in connection with Jesus or any believer, refers to Paradise. Once Jesus was raised from the dead, the souls of those in Paradise were taken into Heaven with Jesus. As such, Paradise no longer exists.
The souls of those who have died after Christ’s resurrection go into his presence immediately. You will not find the use of the term hell (hades) used in connection with anyone who dies in Christ after the resurrection.
For nonbelievers:
The souls of those who died prior to Christ’s resurrection, and after Christ’s resurrection are on the bad (and only remaining) side of Hades, awaiting their final destination in the Lake of Fire, which will come after the Great White Throne Judgment. The use of the term “hell” (hades) used in connection with unbelievers, refers to the place where unbelievers souls are imprisoned prior to their final judgment and destiny in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:13-15:
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There are no believers in hell (hades) at this time. Only unbelievers. So, it is clear to me that the part of hell (hades) that was populated by the righteous prior to Christ’s resurrection is empty by this time.
The lake of fire, into which non-believers are cast, is eternal conscious punishment, as we can see by looking at just a couple more verses:
Revelation 13:8: And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 14:9-11:
[9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
John, I believe you have misread my comment.
I wrote this:
“In your opinion, is it safe to cross out the 10 or so words translated as Hell in the English KJV (from the Greek word Hades) and write Grave next to it for clarity when reading?”
I’m not suggesting changing every single word as Hell in the KJV into Grave. As Holly has expressed, she sees the Greek word for Hades as the English word for Grave. That’s how she sees the verse in Acts 2 (if I understand her comment correctly).
Either Jesus went to Hell, or He went to the Grave.
It is not playing fair with the Scriptures (in my opinion), to say Hell in Acts 2 means ‘grave’ but then in every other reference where Hades is translated as Hell, to interpret it as ‘eternal torment’. It either means Grave, or it means Hell (wherever that is, and whether or not it’s eternal torment is another issue).
Hope that clears up my question.
One has to wonder why the KJV translators saw fit to translate several different greek words into the one word Hell.
Then again, they added ‘office of a bishop’ when such a pompous and important title is foreign to the Greek text and the nature of the priesthood of every believer.
Just saying.
beholdason, the word “hell” appears in the KJV 64 times. I don’t think “grave” would be an appropriate translation for all of them, because some of the uses include the concept of fire that is never quenched (for example, Mark 9:43).
I had thought Gehenna was used as a figure for the lake of fire.
Thanks guys.
In your opinion, is it safe to cross out the 10 or so words translated as Hell in the English KJV (from the Greek word Hades) and write Grave next to it for clarity when reading?
The Greek word ‘Genna’ (which I assume is what people refer to as ‘Gehenna’). Do you both understand this to refer to the Lake of Fire or does it refer to something else?
I’ve found it really interesting looking up these words.
You could spend a lifetime in the Bible and still have a million unanswered questions. Appreciate your thoughts and your grace in answering my questions. Truly.
Thank you Johniinc – yes it is unfortunately….
Holly, and the ultimate destiny for non-believers is the lake of fire.
BeholdaSon – Hades could refer to either side, and was sometimes translated as the grave, as you’ll see in 1 Cor 15:55.
O death where is thy sting, O grave where is thy victory?
The rich man and Lazarus and Abraham were all in the grave, but one side was for the wicked, one side for the righteous, both awaiting their final destiny. The righteous were waiting for the future Messiah who would pay the price, and bring them up to heaven with Him.
Holly, I didn’t post it on your site. I don’t think he is interested in learning anything.
BeholdaSon, no, not at all. The confusion is in the translations of Sheol, Hades, into Hell, which would have been better translated the grave.
Where did Jesus tell the thief He would be that day? In Paradise. That is the side we see Abraham and Lazarus in, across the great divide from the rich man who was in torment. They were in a holding place, until Jesus could conquer death, and He ascended into heaven and brought them with Him. Remember He also entered into the Holy of Holies. But the confusion comes in with not understanding the division of the side for believers and for sinners. “with me” in Paradise. That is mentioned as being in the belly of the earth as was Jonah in the belly of the whale.
But Jim’s article (which I need to read) likely will cover this all in better detail, so I’ll defer until I read it ❤
John great answer, did you post it on my page? I didn’t have any pending comments.
beholdason, I will let Holly answer, but I thought you might find this article from Jim Floyd to be helpful, in part:
Holly, this part of your comment stood out to me as I’ve been considering lately where Jesus went right after His death at Calvary, prior to being resurrected. Your comment said the following:
“Aside from that, he was selling books with this Word of Faith “Jesus was the first born-again man in hell” heretic, along with false word of faith healer Reinhard Bonnke.”
I’m not sure what RB or JM teach about where Jesus went, but reading this I got the impression that you don’t believe that Jesus went to Hell for 3 days. That is, the same Hell that unbelievers go to for all eternity.
I’m reading through Acts again and this passage stood out to me:
“Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.”
– Acts 2:27-32
The Greek word for hell in these verses is Hades. The same Greek word for the hell that the rich man went to in Luke 16:23:
“And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”
I’m wondering how you (and others reading this) interpret the Greek word Hades in Acts 2 in light of your beliefs regarding the place of Hell in Luke 16:23.
How do you interpret Acts 2 “his soul was not left in hell” (meaning Jesus).
Appreciate your thoughts.
Holly, I read the comments on your site from billionsx4, and noticed the following:
He said this:
Look, if faith must be granted (Phil. 1:29) and repentance must be granted (Acts 11:18), where’s the problem? It all comes from God in the end.
And, in another comment, he said this:
So I wouldn’t be so quick to try to separate “repentance from unbelief” from “repentance from sin,” because unbelief is just one more manifestation of sin… in line with the idolatry on the lists of unrepentant and practicing sinners who will end up in hell one day (c.f., 1 Cor. 6:9-10; Rev. 21:8).
My comment:
First, what is a “practicing sinner”? I think that could for just about anyone.
Second, if faith and repentance must be granted, than any unbelief would be God’s responsibility – not man’s responsibility. And, if unbelief is just one more manifestation of sin, then God would be responsible for sin.
Think of it this way: if some are predestined to go to hell because of unbelief, than God is the author of their unbelief.
The achilles heel of the false Calvinist religion is that God is responsible for sin. They won’t come right out and say it, but there is no way around it.
John John, it was a good thing I wasn’t drinking milk when you said this,
“Walk the aisle and get ZAPPED. No more sin! Wait, what? You have sinned AGAIN? Even after the zap? “PAGING RAY COMFORT. POTENTIAL FALSE CONVERT AISLE 3.””
I had to laugh out loud! He would be kept quite busy. It is hard living in this body of sin. Sometimes I know we all wish to go home and be with Him. Will be so wonderful. But the accuser of the brethren stands daily accusing us, the sad part is, he uses people. And they are the lost ones, or in bondage, brought into a snare by the enemy. So we mark and avoid these false teachers to save others from some of the pain we have undergone ourselves.
Paul warned Timothy to take heed to the doctrine so he could save both himself and his hearers. Certainly Timothy was saved eternally, so that could not speak to eternal life. Taking heed to the doctrine is very important to save us from untold miseries the enemy tries to inflict on us, and on our gospel, and on the harvest.
Penelope, I’m reminded of a friend who came out of the Anglican church and asked me, “Do you think I’m a believer, do I sound like one to you?” (They had her up and confessing her sins each week to everyone in the church). Needless to say one of the heavy Calvinistic preachers there was out sinning and not confessing, and he was murdered by his homosexual affair.
Anyways, sorry for the sordid details, but this closet homosexual pastor and his teacher wife are strong 5 point Calvinists (or he was). And they were constantly accusing her every time they saw her.
I told her that yes, I did think she was in my conversation with her, but not because she was some great person, but because when I asked her about the gospel, and made sure she believed the correct gospel, I went one step further (like Ironside did one time) and asked her if she believed there was another way, or some other things to add. And asked her if she was very sure that Buddhism or even Lordship couldn’t save her. Quite assuredly she said, “NO!” However, I told her it didn’t matter one whit what I thought, but it matters what God’s Word says, and if she has believed the testimony God gave of His Son that she can KNOW she is saved, because He says so, and He is not a liar.
Bobbie Jo – Although it had nothing to do with Ray Comfort, a reformed person came to comment on my newest post, which is part 7 by Ron Shea, repentance in salvation, and it’s pretty typical, they use the verses where we are ‘granted grace’ or ‘granted repentance’ and then demand evidence that we are saved by our works. Exactly what Ray Comfort does with his sinless perfection and what is the point? If they are waiting for that ‘fairy dust infused grace’ (somewhat like Ron Shea puts it), then there is not one darn thing they can do about their ‘repentance’ or their ‘faith’ so why spend so much time preaching on it, it’s just an enigma to me.
Since we can’t have encyclopedic knowledge of God’s Word in a zap, we’re open to the winds of doctrine until we are established.
Time!
I don’t believe shortcuts exist to spiritual maturity, but just as in the world with all the get-rich-quick-schemers there are spiritual hucksters offering them.
Walk the aisle and get ZAPPED. No more sin! Wait, what? You have sinned AGAIN? Even after the zap? “PAGING RAY COMFORT. POTENTIAL FALSE CONVERT AISLE 3.” This stupidity knows no bounds, but it has an effect because we know we have sinned against God and that for all our efforts it’s the SAME OLD SINS. Where is our changed life? “How could someone like ME be saved? Ray says he doesn’t sin and he must not be lying—though it seems there was something about that in the Bible—so what’s wrong with ME?”
God has ALL of our life covered, from when we knew nothing to the very end. Satan’s counter ministry has done so much to foul up simple salvation by grace through faith that it is hard to get to the “adjustment” phase of freely chosen deliberate action and maturity…to “working hard in the Lord” in the positive sense vs. the “how am I doing???” constant neurosis and “are my motives REALLY right?” navel gazing.
Apart from the free gift of God—Simplicity!—we see a bunch of spiritual fakery pulled off with smoke, mirrors and sticky tape. Because of Jesus we can finally be HONEST with God, about all of our life and the hidden stuff. Perverters of the Gospel send us back into the shadows because their way is NOT The Way.
I really am blessed by everyone’s comments here. Thanks!
Hi Penelope, the only “test” of salvation is this: that you have received the perfect saving righteousness of Jesus Christ when you believed the gospel of your salvation.
Bobbie Jo, as Holly so aptly pointed out the other day – “repentance from dead works.”
Ray Comfort, and most other LSers, are trying to persuade people to repent TO what God is trying to persuade them to repent FROM!
The issue seems to always revolve around the word ‘repentance’. To quote Ray Comfort “If belief is all that is necessary for salvation, then the logical conclusion is that one need never repent.” You can read this at living waters site. Wrong use of the repent altogether. Repentance is very MUCH needed.
What is everyone’s needing of ‘repentance’ to mean to turn from sin? Say something enough times it is easily believed. Nothing more than self righteousness. Attempting to show God how “good” they are. Yeah….He’s not impressed. Stop frustrating His grace and love for you. grrrr
And $23,000 for a toilet, Holly? Yikes! What an incredible waste of money!
Johniinc – I’m not sure, when you ask people things like that, they just don’t seem to have an answer. Does he willingly sin when he gets mad at someone who gets under his skin? Does he accidentally sin while he preaches a false gospel? Either way it doesn’t matter, if he hasn’t believed at one time the true gospel, he is lost. And if people believe the gospel he preaches, they will be lost.
Penelope – very astute. It is strange how some don’t and won’t consider his words of ‘stop sinning’, ‘turn from sin’ and if you haven’t, you are ‘workers of lawlessness’. Jesus is rarely mentioned, I’m not sure, maybe he does say Jesus is our righteousness, but is He just our temporary righteousness?
Ray doesn’t care where he goes, or who he is with, to get out ‘his gospel’. He was on Joyce Meyer’s show (female pastor who also says she does not sin) — I don’t know about you all, but I kind of think a 23,000 commode is a little bit reeking of the love of money.
Aside from that, he was selling books with this Word of Faith “Jesus was the first born-again man in hell” heretic, along with false word of faith healer Reinhard Bonnke. But his excuse again? Doesn’t matter, associations don’t matter as long as you get the gospel out. Getting the gospel out is mingling your book with their books as a tri-book package?
Penelope, welcome and thanks for your comment.
I agree with you about “tests” of salvation (based on one’s works).
Anyone who advocates such tests had no real understanding of grace or the gospel.
Newbie here. Stumbled onto your site looking up our youth pastor’s contradictory ‘gospel’ message that never sat rang true, even when asked point blank, and realized he is textbook LS.
Ah, yes, Ray Comfort. I like his use of the 10 commandments in evangelizing so people realize their need for a Savior – especially the unchurched – , but despise his brand of ‘repentance’ and apparent perfection one must have/will have when truly saved. I find so many errors and inconsistencies in his teaching. I used to follow him on Facebook, but soon realized every time someone stood up for true grace, he would direct them to a ‘test’ they needed to take to see if they were truly saved. And he’d usually slam dunk it with, “you must just love your sexual sins too much.” …when sex was hardly ever mentioned prior to his blanket judgment. I could go on and on.
Holly, so, if Ray Comfort were to ever sin on purpose, he would think it meant he wasn’t saved?
That sounds like trusting in oneself for eternal life.
Johninnc – I believe Comfort believes if you willingly sin then you are not really saved. He continually uses the lawless argument, and doesn’t seem to care about context, or even the fact that believers are not under the law…
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom 10:4
Fryingpan9. I first heard him with Joyce Meyer several years back, ‘agreeing’ on what the gospel was. It was ‘Christians’ like these who turned me off from becoming a disciple. I didn’t realize not being in the strong meat of His Word, what the problem was.
I love your wife’s reaction… so true (and funny — she made me laugh).
Fryingpan, I know what you mean. These LS guys are either deceived deceivers, or just deceivers. Either way, they are poison.
I know I’m supposed to have love for everyone but I’m really sick of Ray Comfort. The guy practically makes my flesh crawl. I think I mentioned this on a different thread, but I told my wife about one of the videos I saw of him on YouTube (it may even have been posted on this blog) where he tells this woman to “Stop sinning”.
My wife’s only reaction was, “I will when he does.”
Great article. I can be pretty gullible. For a split second I thought this was going to be about Ray Comfort repenting. (Change of mind.)
If Ray Comfort thinks he only accidentally sins, he is deceived.
A good question for him would be: what if you were to sin intentionally? Would Christ’s atonement still be sufficient to take away your intentional sin?
If his answer is “yes”,then he needs to stop teaching his false “turn from sins” for eternal life gospel.
If his answer is no, then he doesn’t even believe the gospel.
Johninnc –
Yes, Comfort is a closet Calvinist, I caught that too on the two gifts being faith and repentance which is completely Calvinism. He wants to keep the funds rolling in though evidently by being noncommittal. A friend called this past week and asked at livingwaters, and they had no comment on that.
Ray Comfort says he only ‘accidentally’ sins.
Thank you for providing the link to Vince’s web page. – Jerry
Hi Jerry,
Have been busy will paste link on for you. Michael Bowen, so lovely to have you back on board.
http://heraldofhope.org.au/index.php/publications/.
Absolutely Johninc. Too bad for comfort the Bible knows nothing of either of those works based positions. Once again, we again see a gross mis-exegesis and application of Scripture committed by comfort in support of his perverted lordship doctrine.
Adam, either Ray Comfort thinks he no longer sins, or he gets special dispensation for trying not to sin.
Trying is a work.
Evidently Mr. Ray Comfort has convinced and deceived himself into thinking he doesn’t sin any more…
I tried to input exactly as you wrote, Holly. Even tried variations to no avail. Still can’t get to Vince’s PDF. Could you provide an exact web address?
Holly, there was another Spurgeon quote in Ray Comfort’s article that I originally included, but removed in order to keep my post at a manageable length.
Spurgeon called repentance a “grace”. This means that Spurgeon taught that both faith and repentance are the gifts of God. We know this is false, as the Bible teaches that eternal life, not faith, is the gift of God (Romans 6:23).
So, even though Ray Comfort teaches that Jesus commands one must turn from sin (“repent”) to receive eternal life, he uses a quote from Spurgeon that calls repentance a “grace” (gift).
Ray Comfort is not concerned with keeping his false gospel consistent. He is concerned solely with advancing the false argument that one who simply believes in Jesus as Savior does not have eternal life.
The works for salvation crowd, no matter their stripe, seem to be able to put aside their differences in corrupting the gospel.
Exactly Johninnc (regarding Spurgeon). All one has to do is look at his “turn or burn” sermon to see that no one could live up to his Calvinist/Lordship standards. And Spurgeon most certainly said TULIP was the gospel.
Michael Patrick Bowen, good to see you again, was just thinking about you the other day and your book on the Great White Throne Judgment, was sharing about it with someone.
Jerry – if you just put a comma between the title and the author, and then put in ‘pdf’, it will be about the 2nd link down.
Holly, Spurgeon was every bit the false teacher that Ray Comfort is. Anyone who defends Spurgeon is either ignorant of what he taught, or agrees with him.
Thanks Michael!
I’m so sorry to hear that, John. I would like to be a pal to you, if I may. I’m sorry I’ve been away for so long. I’d just like to be a blessing to you in any way that I can be. I’m really proud of you for how you handled the Comfort piece. You’re being prayed for–a lot. Many blessings to you–and strength.
Michael, it’s good to hear from you.
I am doing well, although there has been a lot of change with losing Jack Weaver, my father, and mother in law so far this year.
John in NC, well done. How are you doing?
It truly boggles my mind how so many claim they are trusting in Christ alone as their only way to heaven and, in the same breath mind you, turn around and say you must stop sinning. How does that make any sense whatsoever? It’s very confusing to say the least. We all know our Father is not the author of confusion so we know where this false doctrine comes from. I heard Ray Comfort is buddies with Kirk Cameron. Im not sure if I heard correctly though.
I feel saddened that this doctrine is seemingly overtaking the entire world. Whats especially alarming is when you show scripture after scripture they get mad. When all else fails they start attacking you personally.
Thanks for the article, John.
Ray comfort says were workers of iniquity (hypocrites) so not only has he judged our view of the scriptures he has also judged us. He also says God does undoubtedly command us both to repent, and to bring forth fruits meet for repentance; which if we willingly neglect, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all: therefore both repentance, and fruits meet for repentance, are, in some sense, necessary to justification.”He needs to read Rom 5;1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: He should explain what verses like this really mean also John 3;16 Eph 2;8-9 Good article Johninnc
Derick, it’s great to hear from you and to know that another soul has been freed from The grip of LS.
Great article, been doing a bible study with one of my friends about salvation who was hooked on lordship salvation that has a powerful stronghold in Rwanda, but she has now believed the gospel and we are currently going through a series on the passover.
Mary – Would you provide a direct link to the Vince Wall PDF? For some odd reason, I can’t seem to pull it up. Perhaps others are having the same difficultly. Thanks.
Thanks guys well done Johnnic and Holly, we do tire correcting these doctrines of demons, we do have to combat them until the lord comes. The enemy is relentless and he will do everything he can to take people to hell or confuse the gospel so it doesn’t save anyone.
When speaking to people in most churches, they cannot articulate the simple gospel of grace, now that is truly AMAZING. They say we do not want a theological debate, neither do we, we just want to know what gospel you preach so we can attend your church, or avoid it, or use the opportunity to give the clear gospel to them. Boy its hard work, just trying to get them to understand it.
I have to keep remembering our labour in not in vain.
If you know people who are stuck in catholicism, we have a wonderful pastor here in Australia who has the correct gospel. He has written a good booklet on his testimony of coming out of catholicism
Its called TRADITION OR TRUTH BY VINCE WALL. It is currently being translated into Italian and Spanish. We do not endorse Herald of Hope in Australia, but the booklet is good. It can be obtained on line as a free pdf.
On another video, Ray Comfort says, “You’ve got to repent, turn from your sins, and put your trust in Jesus Christ… You’ve got to trust in him and stop sinning.”
I’m going to link your article here to mine.
Comfort says, “Merely being sorry for your sins, or confessing them to God won’t help you. You must turn from sin (he says that = repent), and your faith must be in Jesus Christ alone. He is the only “grounds” for God to grant mercy towards you. If you’re not sure of your salvation, make Psalm 51 your own prayer.”
In one of the videos I have on this link:
In this video, between time stamps 6:10 to 6:30, Comfort tells an agnostic young man that what he “must do is obey the command of God to repent, turn from your sins, let them go, trust the love of Jesus Christ.”
http://redeemingmoments.com/2014/07/11/ray-comfort-whats-wrong-with-his-gospel/
Good article, this article by Ray, recounting the article written against him by David Stewart (who has some of his own issues in defending Spurgeon), has been flooding Facebook with his lordship turn from sins teaching. In one of my articles on Comfort there is a video where he says STOP SINNING.
Wonder how that’s working for him?…