(Following are excerpts of an e-mail we received at ExPreacherman (in bold), along with a summary of our response. We thought this discussion might be helpful to others who are facing this situation.)
Comment: I was hoping you might be able to offer me some advice and direct me to scripture for prayerful study.
I was saved a little over a year ago and have been attending one of two churches in my area. I helped lead my husband to the Lord in the summer.
Over time, it has become clear to me that the elders and Pastor of our church are “Lordship Salvationists”[1]. I can give many instances of where this has come up, including a conversation with the Pastor-who doesn’t believe one is saved if they aren’t a committed disciple or fall away or backslide.
An elder wanted to be sure if I was telling people that they had to changed their life in order to be saved. The same elder wanted to take my husband under his wing so that he could do good works to “grow unto salvation”
When I told the good news to another senior member of the church that my husband was saved, she replied with a smile “he made a commitment!?!”. I said with a smile “He believes!”
When I shared the good news with a neighbor who attends the church that another neighbor that I gave the gospel to the night before was now saved, he said “He gave his life to the Lord!?” I replied with a big smile, “He believes!”
I believe the scriptures tell me to separate from them. There may be saved people in this church, but the leadership is certainly teaching a false gospel that does not save (IMHO). I don’t want to forsake fellowship, but I’m not sure if this truly is fellowship with other true believers.
If you are able to offer me some guidance and show me in God’s word on what I should do, I would be ever so grateful.
It is awesome that you have a heart for the purity of the Gospel. Because of its unique power, the Gospel is Satan’s prime target. Based on what you have written in your e-mail, you are wise to be concerned about this church’s lack of commitment to the clarity of the Gospel. The pastor, elder, and confused church members each lend credence to your concern that this church is not clear on God’s plan of salvation, which is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Following are some excerpts on Biblical separation from Clear Gospel Campaign that I think are instructive:
Scripture teaches the unity of the church as one of the highest goals toward which the church should aspire (Ephesians 4:3). We believe, therefore, that not every theological dispute merits separation…
We believe, however, that any area of doctrine even remotely affecting the integrity of the gospel is inherently serious (Galatians 2:11-14), that Scripture calls us to draw the line at the earliest point, and to yield not one inch on matters that jeopardize the integrity of the gospel, a compromise that jeopardizes the eternal life of every man, woman and child on this planet who has not yet heard the gospel message (Galatians 1:6-9, 2:5).
For those individuals and groups that are receptive to learning the truth, we should seek to minister to them.
With any individual or group, I would go by whether they are receptive to what you are showing them from scripture, whether it is falling on deaf ears (going in one ear and out the other) or whether they are “dug in” and trying to get you to accept their compromise.
[1] For a concise definition of Lordship Salvation, please see the following link:
Notes From A Retired Preacher 
If anyone is aware of a good church in the Colorado Springs area, please reply in this thread or via email to Expreacherman.
Sean, let me know where you are from, or John can, and I’ll look to see if someone has mentioned that city (we’ve kind of been trying to keep a list of some that people have mentioned across the country.
Sean, Holly Garcia may also know if something in your city.
I have been attending cyber church
http://www.duluthbible.org/webcast–live!
http://www.biblelineministries.org/churchhdcam.html
eventually would like to be part of a small group that would get together and attend via live streaming
Sean, you might consider meeting with a small group at your home.
Pray that God would lead you to meet fellow grace believers with whom to meet.
I will pray for you as well.
Hi, I also live in an area where every church I have attended teaches Lordship Salvation. I am hungry for fellowship but I do not want to to compromise the gospel. What should I do? I currently do not have a church home.
2believeis2trust
Seems like people are indeed attacking the gospel, Satan knows his time is short. We are saved from (eternal) death unto (eternal) life (jn. 5:24), somehow they want to take that out of the equation. His resurrection was attacked back in the day, and it is so people’s faith will be overthrown, people will be led astray… The gospel will be in vain if Christ is not risen. His resurrection proves we too will rise to life.
Funny how eternal security/eternal life keeps coming up. Thanks John for linking Preston’s comment above.
https://expreacherman.com/2014/01/26/questions-on-separating-from-a-lordship-salvation-church/#comment-54129
Phil R. it’s why I appreciated Tom Cucuzza’s series on Understanding the two natures. Also Ralph Yankee Arnold’s video on 1 John 3:9 was helpful. People have trouble separating the New Creature from the flesh.
Here is part 1, Part 2 can be found here too.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=72141043258
“about the quality of your response instead of the completed work of Christ”
nice quote Phil
Thanks, Phil. Satan is def a master deceiver. Constantly attacking the gospel and if he cant do that he comes after the security you have in Christ. I need to remember to test all things and spend more time with Him. God willing Ill grown more and more each day.
Hi 2 believe, I’ll keep you in prayer that you may each day know the confidence of your eternal security, that it is all the work of Christ and that it must be or it would not perfect.
Just some advise; don’t listen to these TV preachers. They may be sincere, but they are also success oriented for their ministry and that means keep the money flowing. They can’t just tell you Christ did it all and it’s a done deal. No, that’s too easy, so they have to get you to jump through some hoops and follow a certain formula (repent of sins, ask Jesus into your heart). In other words, they make salvation about the quality of your response instead of the completed work of Christ. Remember, the devil wants to tear down your security in Christ any way he can using any teachers that are not proclaiming the pure free grace message. He will also whisper the lie that you sin too much, and that a person who is “truly saved” would never do this or that wrong. Don’t listen these lies of Satan and don’t listen to these faith/works= salvation false teachers whether they are Church of Christ or Lordship salvation.
Bobbi Jo, just so happened, it was the time to pray for you, and also believe the Lord spurs us in those areas for people, so I know He cares, and is going to help, get some ‘feet time’ with Him (Luke 10:38-42) ❤
Jon – and yet they still seem to think they can keep it. They know they cannot keep it perfectly, only One ever did that, but they insist on trying to put people under the law….
Awww, Holly. Thanks for the prayers. They are greatly appreciated. Lord knows we all need the extra comfort and support. In this day and age everywhere you go its a constant lordship salvation message. Repent of your sins, stop sinning, ask Jesus into your heart, etc. It becomes exhausting to me. It seems those who teach as well as believe this message are so condescending and hateful towards eternal security aka the TRUE Gospel. It breaks my heart to see as well as hear how others speak to each other. There is no love. Only condemnation.
Treating others with such maloce grieves me deeply. I never gave it much thought but now that I think about it one can see thos truly comes from satan. This way is so filled with hate. Its just terribly sad. I was abused by a man and I have forgiven him and I see him due to hes my youngest childs father. Then I see some so hateful towards someone over something insignificant. Im no one special and am upset there are so many out there who believe they are the best thing out there.
Sorry ya’ll. Rant over 🙂
Aww, Holly. Thank you for your prayers. The Lord knows we could use all the prayers we can get in this world of evil. Everywhere I go, everywhere I look, etc there is lordship salvation going strong. Its exhausting. Its an ongoing battle to keep our minds from wondering. Then, we go into His Word and gain peace once more.
I thank the Lord for all of you as there is no fellowship to be had where I am that I have found. Speaking to others I hear how you are to ask Jesus into your heart, turn from your sins, do the best you can, be a good person and so on. When you correct and show evidence in scripture they dont want to hear it and get angry.? This confuses me tremendously as this is great news but they keep wanting to “do” something to prove themselves??? Prove yourself to God? The very arrogance of such a statement. Bizarre.
My heart aches for all those still in bondage as I know exactly what it feels like. You continue to try to be good, you fall and doubt salvation. Then you “repent”, sin, “repent”, sin and repeat. Its unreal. Pure craziness. And for some reason others keep trying to convince me Im wrong. Im no longer worried about me I look towards Him and keep walking. No looking back. 🙂
Sad. My heart is incredibly grieved. “For God so loved the world…..” but then has man run in continuous circles trying to get to heaven? Pish posh! This is not the God I serve. My God so loved this world He came in the flesh in Jesus Christ and paid for all my sins cause He knew I could never do it by my own. What an incredible God!!!
:):):):):)
Bobbie Jo was prompted to pray for you early this am while driving truck .
remind yourself who you are in Christ Jesus
https://expreacherman.com/36-amazing-things/
check out the Grace conference teaching Dennis Rokser Interpreting
1John Should Unfaithful Christians be Afraid of Being Cast into Outer Darkness
http://standforthefaith.com/grace-sermon-audio-2014/
Awwww, Holly. Thanks for your prayers! I’m very appreciative for them. You are right about being sealed by our loving Father.
Ephesians 1:13 “In whom ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise”
Ephesians 4:30 “And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto day of redemption”
It takes reminding, that’s for sure. How powerful the evil one is against one not strong in the Word nor the faith. I’ll be the first to admit I’m much a babe in Christ which is entirely my fault. I take responsibility for such. I’ve become quite lazy. Some days are better than others.
Psalms 5:11 “But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee”
I am back strong once more to stand knowing the Lord loves me and the deceiver will not take that from me.
John 8:44 “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”
I pray we will recognize every attempt of him who seeks to take away our joy which is in Christ Jesus.
❤ right back atcha, Holly. 🙂
Curtis, “We are saved BY Grace THROUGH Faith eph 2:8-9”, I agree completely with this.
Holly, on the subject of the Gospel of John, this verse really stuck out to me the other day: John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?
Preston – great encouragement, love your openness to consider different wording even, as I see the Word used here, I am always encouraged too. As John said, it’s not the quality of our faith but Who our faith is in 🙂
Jon, one thing I’ve been noting as I teach through John is the amount of times after the disciples believed and were declared ‘clean’ that Jesus continues to exhort them or tell them things so that they will believe. So, He knows we are but dust, He knows our frame and pities us like a Father has compassion on His children. He gives us His Word to continue to build our faith, but the one thing we do is believe who He is and what He has done, and we are gifted with eternal life. And so I get you on the phrases which we can begin to ask ourselves, have we done this, but a good way to know, is to ask, do we believe there is another way than Jesus Christ? Did we believe in another way? Once we have believed, we’re sealed, and the enemy comes in to try to send fiery darts our way. So, the Word builds up our shield of faith, and as we put our armor on daily, we begin to realize how much of a wonderful work He has done, what an amazing gift we have been given, the enemy hates it, and doesn’t want others to know.
We sharpen iron together, it’s good as we share these things we ponder, and refine our speech together so that we might be reminded of the event, our adoption moment, when we became Sons that abide forever in His house. Love in Christ, thanks for honestly sharing.
Bobbie Jo – I prayed for you twice today. Funny, you came up on my calendar prayer list, and shortly thereafter, I was searching for something in my email, and saw your name. Don’t have fear, He doesn’t give us a spirit of fear. Abide in His Word, Abide in Him, just choose the better part. That is our endurance, to continue in His Word, and His truth will set us free. We are already saved because we have believed the truth of His gospel, and God has set His seal on us too. Trust in Him, lean on Him. Pray for more things. Get fellowship online if that’s the only place you can find it, and you are always in my prayers. In Christ’s love to you ❤
Preston no need for an apology! I truly meant it as a compliment! I needed to hear it. If we can’t humble ourselves to be rebuked in a stern manner we cannot grow spiritually. Our Lord certainly rebuked sternly and not always in a loving manner but only to drive the point home. Was it not our Lord who called His own apostle satan?
I’m sorry you took it the wrong way.
Most def, Jon. That was a great point!!! Lets keep remembering Jesus died for all our sins. 🙂
have no confidence in the flesh. have no confidence in the flesh.
Php 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
Php 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: ………………………….
and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
faith of Christ, faith of Christ, faith of Christ,
Christ Jesus is the object of my/our faith. I/We are not saved by Faith !
We are saved BY Grace THROUGH Faith eph 2:8-9
I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
there is also Living faith for reward that’s another post …
Thanks John, I appreciate your supportive comments. Hope I didn’t come across as nitpicking.
Jon,
Good point. Maybe i will change that line. hmmmmm??
Jesus said to His disciples many times “ye of little faith” and they were already saved.
The point with any paper is to get someone to put their confidence in Jesus and not themselves (works, the law, church affiliation, tithing, sacraments, etc) As a result, that is why I put it in there.
However, i can now see that it might cause a bit of concern to others.
thanks for the input!!!
Jon, I agree. It is the Object of our faith (Jesus), not the quality of our faith that is the issue.
Bobby Joe,
my sincere apologies. I read your comment and thought “disciplinarian”?
I re-read it and “oh my”; you were right!! I write many papers. This was a paper written “to prove” eternal security. Thus it does have a “argumentative/lawyer” type feel.
I honestly posted it for the comforting angle. To show the promises from the bible.
I do sincerely hope it helped, and my sincere apologies. This is to be a place for us to support, remind, comfort and share – not to “kick butt”.
blessings
For me the term “puts total confidence in” leaves room for doubt. Have I put TOTAL confidence in the gospel or partial? Is it 100% or only 75%? I don’t want it to be 75% because I assume that lands me in Hell again. Believing Jesus paid for my sins seems simple to me. ‘Putting total confidence in’ seems more difficult. It feels like the burden is on me and I am often not a confident person and in many ways a failure.
Thank you for your posts.
Matt, you reminded me to always be on guard against an attack on the simplicity that is in Christ would be the evil one so thanks for .
Preston you gave me a swift kick in the backside which was much needed. Especially where you ask how many times does the Bible have to say something before one will believe it. For these things I thank you.
Curtis, your post actually made me tear up. You showed me Gods love and compassion towards His children. Thank you for it. I needed it.
The Lord has used you 3 beautifully to speak to me through His Word. Much like a father all the specifics were there. Mark you played the part of the teacher reminding one of the constant temptations around. Preston you played the disciplinarian once I showed weakness and a lapse in faith therefore kicking my behind. 🙂 Curtis you showed the love and compassion of the Father.
Truly how amazingly He has used you 3 for His own glory and purpose. Praise the Lord.
More time in His Word is def where I need to be.
In Christ,
Bobbie Jo
Thank you, Matt. You reminded me of the evil ones tactics.
Preston you have given me the firm, grounded in the Word kick in the butt I needed. Thanks for that. 🙂
Curtis, you made me cry. In a good way though. It is truly hard to get someof that poison from lordship salvation out of your system. You showed me God’s love and kindness. Thank you.
The Lord has used you 3 in ways you cannot imagine. Only the Lord knows how much your posts have meant to me.
More time in His Word is def in order for me. Thanks guys!
It is not easy coming out of false teaching bobie jo it took me 4 years so far to get and learn to and learning to keep my footing. When I start to notice self condemning thoughts or get angry with out cause or depression . I start back tracking to see if there may have been a song or teaching that I listen to recently that may be causing it. first thing is turn off the music and make sure what you are listening to is biblically correct. don’t drive your car or were ever you are and just start listening to christian radio with out knowing who you are listening too.
myself personally I removed “christian” books out of my house that are not biblicaly correct took them to the dump personally and felt good.
ask for wisdom and understanding and go back over the plan of salvation.
as hard as it may seam to be I like to practice being thankful . be thankful for something in the morning and evening before going to sleep.
Thank God for salvation , God demonstrated His love toward us in while we were yet sinners Christ died for us .
you have come a long way already bobie jo , my heart rejoices to Jesus that you stepped up and ask for help you show a lot of courage and humility . God resists the proud but GIVES Grace to the Humble
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
self condemning thoughts are not from God you / I ,all have been loved with an everlasting Love from before the world began from before we took are first breath.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
no condemnation
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Keep yourselves in the love of God
Keep G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Bobby Joe,
Been there done that – I feel ya. a bit lengthy but maybe this can help.
ETERNAL SECURITY
Eternal Security is PREVELANT in the scriptures. Again, if one does not believe in eternal security, then they are saying that they have to DO something to obtain it or keep it. Resulting in NOT BELIEVING (putting total confidence in) the gospel and putting SOME amount of confidence in themselves.
Always remember, the bible CANNOT contradict itself.
REASONS WHY I BELIEVE IN ETERNAL SECURITY
1. Everlasting life MEANS everlasting life.
– In the book of John, Jesus uses the word believe with everlasting life OR not being condemned.
– John 6:47 – verily, verily (or truly, truly) I say unto thee, he that believeth in me HATH everlasting life.
– HATH is a present tense verb meaning HAS. This means one “CURRENTLY POSSESSES” everlasting life. IF one could lose it, then they never had everlasting life but “temporary life”.
– As a result, Jesus would then have lied. Which is impossible. Titus 1:2 – In hope of eternal life, which God, that CANNOT lie, promised before the world began
2. The bible states that when a person believes/trusts/ puts total confidence in the GOSPEL, that person is SEALED. One can never be unsealed.
– Eph 1:13-14 – In whom ye also TRUSTED, after that ye heard the word of truth, the GOSPEL of your salvation: in whom also after that ye BELIEVED, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
A. the bible CANNOT contradict itself. It CLEARLY states that the believer is SEALED.
B. Also see Eph 4:30 (sealed unto redemption) and 2 Cor 1:21-22.
C. verse 14 – the word “earnest” means “deposit”. The Holy Spirit is the “deposit” that guarantees us to HIS POSSESSION.
3. Jesus PROMISED to not lose one in the book of John. IF one had salvation THEN lost it, Jesus would have lost someone.
– John 6:38-40 – For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day
– ARE we to think that Jesus will actually lose one????
4. The bible states that ALL sins are forgiven to the believer. ALL in the greek is PAZ – it means total, all, 100%, always (which is a measure of time). If the bible says ALL my sins are forgiven (past, present, future) then I CANT lose my salvation.
– Acts 13:39 – And by him all that BELIEVE are justified from ALL THINGS, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
– Colossians 2:13-14 – And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, HAVING FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross
A. sooo, will we believe the bible when it says ALL???
5. In the book of Hebrews it states, “Those that are sanctified ARE perfected FOREVER. HMMMM. Does forever mean forever?
– Who then are sanctified? – We are told by Jesus himself in Acts 26:18 – To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which ARE SANCTIFIED BY FAITH that is in me
A. We CLEARLY see that we are sanctified by faith in Jesus (NOT faith in OURSELVES to earn salvation).
– Heb 10:14 – For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOREVER them that are sanctified
6. Salvation is a gift NOT A REWARD.
– Many verses state that salvation is a GIFT. A GIFT is free. We see this in Eph 2:8-9, Rom 6:23, Rom 3:24-27, and in Rom 5:15-20 which reads………
“But not as the offence, so also is the FREE GIFT. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the GIFT BY GRACE, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the GIFT: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the FREE GIFT is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be MADE RIGHTEOUS 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.
NOTE – salvation is not a GIFT if one has to DO something to earn it. IF one cannot earn it, how can one lose it? Also, how many times does the bible need to tell us that salvation is FREE before we will actually believe it?
7. I cannot lose my salvation because Jesus said that nothing will be plucked out of His hand or the Fathers hand. IF one could lose their salvation than someone/something “plucked us out of His hand”.
– John 10-28-29 – And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall ANY MAN pluck them out of my hand.29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and NO MAN is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
– Rom 8:38-39 – For I am persuaded, that NEITHER death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
A. NOTHING, not even ourselves, will be able to separate us from Him!!!!
8. I cannot lose my salvation because then, I would be able to boast.
– Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
– Romans 3:27 – 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
– This simply means that I can’t go to God and say “See God, I deserve to be here, I didn’t do that to lose my salvation”.
9. The bible says over and over that the believer is “declared righteous” by faith, belief, grace. There is NO verse that states once a believer is “declared righteous” they become unrighteous. JUSTIFIED means “declared righteous”
– Rom 3:24 Being JUSTIFIED FREELY by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
– Knowing that a man is NOT justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and NOT by the works of the law: for by the works of the law SHALL NO flesh be justified
10. The “born again” believer understands that “the flesh” cannot justify them AT ALL. If one could lose their salvation, then the flesh gets “partial” credit.
– For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have NO CONFIDENCE in the flesh (Phil 3:3)
– Gal 3:1-3 – O FOOLISH Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so FOOLISH? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the FLESH?
A. our flesh cannot please God at all. Are we to think that once we are sealed that we maintain our salvation through the flesh (works or works of the law that WE do)?
A BONUS——
1 Peter 1:4-5 – To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, RESERVED in heaven for you 5 Who are KEPT by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Jude 1:1 – Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that ARE SANCTIFIED by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ, and called
NOTICE – we are KEPT and PRESERVED by God.
A QUESTION
The bible is full of people who found salvation both as individuals and groups. The list includes: Saul, Cornelius, the Ethiopian, Simon the Sorcerer, the thief on the cross, the Philippian jailor, etc.
Can you find ONE example in the bible where someone lost their salvation in the New Testament? Here’s a hint. You won’t find one person named who lost their salvation.
The bible CANNOT contradict itself!!! It is God who keeps us, seals us, never losing us and not allowing anything to pluck us out of His hand. Believers ARE the body of Christ and nothing will ever separate us from the love of God. He sanctifies us by faith.
Heb 10:14 – For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOREVER them that are sanctified.
WOW – how great is this!! How great is grace!! How great is God!!
Bobbie Jo,
Condemnation thoughts are a lie playing on our carnal desire to earn our righteous standing (of which no human can measure up to).
We believers need to daily remind ourselves that, by God’s abundant free grace gift,IN CHRIST, every past, present and future sin of ours is forgiven, forgotten, cleansed, and the righteousness of God is imputed to us. We are greatly blessed, highly favored, and deeply loved by God. Now that’s good news indeed!
I havent commented on here for quite awhile. My apologies.
I have emailed John for some much needed advice and encouragement. I feel as though God hates me. And I know this to be a lie. I then have church of christ doctrine run through my head at times telling me I lost salvation. Most days Im so sure of myself and other days Im just kinda kicked down.
Thank yoi for your time.
Bobbie Jo
Thank you for all the comments I am pondering them.
BeholdaSon, I struggle with that myself, to a certain extent, I don’t want to be disobedient to Him not to have fellowship with someone who is in error, (not speaking to Preston who got up and left with error), but yes if we have a place to speak openly to the error (as I do), but I also have a sound teacher.
It’s hard, I wouldn’t want someone I knew to be misled, so everyone in my class now knows I do not attend the church. I wish I had let them know earlier, I ‘thought’ pretty much everyone knew, but one dear to me started going to a class where the guy was pushing TULIP and he and his wife were ‘taking her under their wing’ and eventually when she didn’t ‘get it’ were getting aggressive and about maybe a year and a half ago she asked me after class if I knew what this thing called TULIP was and told me where she was getting it. I invited her out after and explained, and we’ve had many conversations, she attends my online study or listens to the taping, and she ‘gets the truth’ for which I’m ever grateful, but I don’t immediately pounce on one who comes in new, but I do have to let them know at first opportunity, that we do not attend there (nor do any that I know of in that study now).
I am in groups that are not what I consider teaching a good gospel, but I keep Gal 2:4-5 and Jude 3 in mind ❤
Preston, I appreciate your comment.
I have an older friend who has a similar approach to you regarding establishments of heresy.
His approach is… if you’re strong in the faith and know the Word, you stay – and fight. He has friends in places you wouldn’t send a dead dog. Catholic, SDA etc.
He says it’s amazing how God can use these friends to share the truth with those caught up within the error.
EVENTUALLY, they get kicked out by those in ‘authority’. But not without dragging a few out of the fire first.
Certainly not for all of us, especially the weak in faith. And certainly not for the faint in heart.
Phil R., the church I attend Bible Study at, well, the ministry is separate, the room is ‘allowed’ for us to do the study, but anyone I invite, I make sure I let them know I do not attend the Mega church and why. Blend of emergent and Calvinist, along with Daniel Plan and John MacArthur, blending traditional services with contemporary, meaning they serve everyone, they want to be like McDonalds 🙂
I tell them so they don’t accidentally think I might be associated with the church. I am thankful for having the place to meet, but I suspect it won’t be for long.
Thanks john for your heads up about the ESV. It seems to be the latest trend in Bible versions. Saw a number of them in this Presbyterian church I visited about a year ago along with some Reformation Study Bibles (Sproul I think) and some JM Study Bibles). All of these are red flags to me of LS and perseverance Calvinism. My questions is, do we really need all these versions??
I have never actually heard the, “even the demons believe and tremble” legalistic misinterpretation used by the faith/works bunch actually in a church, but I have heard it on a radio or TV church show. Again, this also should be a red flag to find the exit door.
Thanks Preston, I’ll keep in prayer what you have said and best to you. I was in a United Methodist Church in the mid 1990’s; one of the wrong turns I made in choosing a church. They are notorious for being liberal. You never heard the gospel of grace proclaimed there from the pulpit or in Bible studies, by in large they were clueless about the gospel. Theologically all Methodist churches are Arminian (salvation can be lost and regained), as are their conservative cousins who broke away in the past: the Salvation Army and Church of the Nazarene. And if you brought up the good news that Christ has already provided salvation for us through his finished work with these Methodists as I did and was called a “Calvinist” by the one man. And I have a feeling that if I asked them what is the gospel of salvation their response would be Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
A short but sad story: During my brief stay at this Methodist church I was on this church growth commitee and during a meeting this one leader just started trashing and ridiculing people who proclaim they are saved–and I think it was aimed at me. And I was in shock! After that, I decided to leave this church that I was only a member for just over a year. The pastor called me and I told him exactly why I was leaving. No regrets.
Another thought.
will try to keep it short.
I go to a Methodist church. I heard some things i didnt like, but continued to listen.
I went to a bible study. it was not really a bible study but a watching of videos and discussion. I talked to God. I said i would go this bible study 2 or 3 more times but it wasnt for me. This small group was beginning to get comfortable with me and i heard statements and questions like this…
1. Preston, I hope I am in the good line
2. Preston, why do you have the faith you do (what they really meant was assurance).
3. Preston, my son was a believer, now he is not, is he still going to heaven.
ALL of these people are humble, God fearing, would do just about anything for the Lord, non self righteous people.
I said to God, “OK, now I see”. Today, they ALL know where they are going when they die. (NOT saying I lead them to the gospel, they could have easily fallen for galatianism). But at least their confidence in the gospel is up which means they can be confident and clear to others.
We are now “in the bible”—praise God
Once they were fine, THEN I could talk to the pastor. I wouldnt talk to him about doctrine UNTIL this small group understood the gospel; he might have kicked me out.
Anyway, we talked and of course I gave him the “big three” questions.
1. Where are you going when you die?
2. How do you know?
3. Can you lose it?
His responses
1. Yes
2. i am saved by grace
3. no you cant, although Heb 6 throws me for a loop.
The only issue was this, I asked him what the gospel was. He stated, “the first four books of the new testament”, (cross-less type gospel). I DONT, in anyway, think this is by design by him.
Also, the asst pastors have praised Billy G and the Pope. (yes i said the pope). I actually walked out of that sermon. complete lack of discernment probably
WHATS MY POINT – maybe there is a “reason” you are there. Paul went into the Synagoges and preached. Not saying you have to spout off and be “ousted” in 30 minutes. BUT maybe, there are some people there who are confused on the gospel. Maybe there are people there who have GREAT hearts (from a human perspective) who dont understand the gospel (See cornellius Acts 10–very God fearing but unsaved).
IF you are grounded and can answer questions that the “religious” can throw at you; maybe God would like you to “stick around” and see what opportunities can come your way to bear some kind of fruit. Paul unto a jew became like a jew to win them to the gospel.
I cant say for sure what you should do. BUT before you leave, pray for God to put the decision He wants into your heart.
For me, the church before this Methodist one, I wanted to beat the pastor up side the head with the bible and pray for osmosis. Obviously i left that one. 🙂
just a thought for you.
Phil, I would keep a heightened sense of awareness. The ESV is the Calvinist’s Bible, and they may be moving in that direction.
If you start hearing “even the demons believe and they tremble,” that’s a sign of back-door LS being taught.
I know it has been since Oct since I posted on this. There have been some things that concern me at this church that I sometimes attend. This is a large independent Bible church. I find nothing wrong with their doctrinal statement which states free grace by faith alone and that salvation cannot be lost. But there have been some things that concern me. They offer a number of on-line studies available with quite a few teachers available. But one of them is by Francis Chan and from what I have read he is very much LS. The have a church library and lots books, but it didn’t take me long to find one there by John MacArthur, also I have seen one man in a Bible study carrying a JM Study Bible. I rarely see someone use the KJV, but ESVs are becoming common. I am waiting to see if they drop the tithing bomb or the slogan, “if you are not tithing then you are robbing God” legalism. If I hear anything like that I won’t return. Already I heard an adult Bible study teacher mention it favorably.
Actually, this forum here, expreacherman, being free grace has become more of a church to me than I have found. And from reading this thread it sounds like some others here feel the same.way not finding a free grace church in a desert of legalism and Lordship Salvation.
for me personally I need to hear the gospel presented clearly and or woven into every sermon as demonstrated by Tom Cuccuza , Yankee Arnold and others.
I got excited many times about finding a church only to find the pulpit leader ad’s some elements of works to Grace (Free Gift) for eternal life.
It hurts I to long for genuine fellowship around the person of Jesus and the Joy of salvation only to find not one group assembly agree’s with the biblical gospel in my area.
I do know it is God’s will for me to be in fellowship somewhere but I choose not to compromise on the Gospel. If I walk through the threshold of a assembly that is not clear on the Gospel I feel I am vexing my soul and agreeing on their teaching.
Phil, you are right to be cautious, and I pray it works out for you ❤
Phil,
Congratulations!!!
If you have found a good Grace church that does not indulge in the front door or back door Lordship probation you are among the blessed. Not many of our regulars here have managed that.
Keep us posted on how things go with the church. We are interested and will be praying for you.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
i actually have not yet joined this church. I guess I have been understandably reluctant: I am just trying to be as careful as possible and not make the same mistake twice and end up joining a legalistic church again. I have been going there off and on for some time now and am going to attend a class for people thinking about joining–and they do want to hear any questions we have.
From attending adult Bible studies at this church on Sundays, I keep hearing from others during the Bible studies how Jesus did it all and paid it all for their sins and has saved them giving them eternal life. What a joy it is to hear this and share the same grace together with fellow pure grace believers! This is very encouraging and has kept me coming to this church.
Phil R. Happy to hear you found a church, some of us have not quite yet been so blessed, but some are attending Bible studies, some are teaching Bible studies, I am prayerfully attempting a women’s study weekly.
I did an article on testing the churches while one looks. Some was tongue in cheek, but it’s seriously difficult to find ones that understand the good news, such a blessing when one does.
Happy to have you with us, God bless! (I too call it Galationism at times) 🙂
Phil R,
Welcome to ExPreacherMan and thanks for your comment.
Yes we agree that Lordship “salvation” is the same probationary message Paul was condemning in his message to the church at Galatia, which we also call “Galatianism.”
We highly recommend that folks in search of a good Grace church carefully read their Statement of Faith and question the church leaders. If the leaders are uncomfortable with the questions, then one may rightly assume the message from the pulpit may be faulty.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
bahaha.
Phil said “Galatianism”. There’s a new one.
First off, I am a grace only believer who was saved once and forever the moment that i believed the gospel that Christ died to take away all my sins and reconcile me, and that he was buried, and was raised from the dead assuring that I am raised to new life.
In the mid ’90 I started attending a Bible church that I ended up, regretibly, joining. I started hearing about this John MacArthur and his Lordship salvation teachings. Over time I realized that they were teaching salvation by faith plus works. At first I thought it was only a few in this church who believed these Lordship Salvation teachings, but I found they had spread a lot. I finally told the pastor that I was fed up with this MacArthur legalism that was being promoted by members of this church and I told him I was leaving this church, which I did in 2000. I believe that this Lordhship Salvation is pure legalism or Galatianism and is what Paul is condemning with his anathema in Galatians chapter one.
I was later happy to find a church the taught the truth that we are saved by grace alone through faith in Christ alone: that we are saved simply believing the gospel of our salvation, and not by also requiring living the Christian life and works to our faith as Lordship salvationists require.
My advise is to read the doctrinal statements of prospective churches and talk with their leaders and find out whether they truly believe in being saved by simply trusting in Christ’s finished saving work alone.
Hope this helps. Phil
Preston, we received an e-mail yesterday from a gentleman that reminded me of your comment about the impossibility of “mutilating one’s way to heaven”. An excerpt is below:
Here’s a question I posed to a pastor friend – a man who rejects the Free-Grace position.
“What would you do if one of your most dedicated members came to you with his right eye, right hand, and right foot missing and said, “Pastor, I have done what you taught us last Sunday that Jesus required us to do to go to heaven.” He held up his bloody wrist and pointed at his bloody eye. “Is this enough? Has God finally forgiven my sins? Is God finished with being angry at me? Is this enough?”
My friend wrote back that he would not answer the question because no Christian would ever mutilate them self like that.
My old friend didn’t realize that Jesus was teaching LAW to JEWS – and there was not a single Christian at that famous sermon. Jesus was telling those Jews that if they really wanted to earn their way to heaven rather than look to the Lamb of God, then here are the nearly twenty requirements that must be followed perfectly – an impossible task.
Amen Bobbie Jo! I feel burdened for them… they are blind, and do not know. It’s easier trying when we know we need His help in all things.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Gal 4:30-31, 5:1
Thank you, Holly. I am very thankful that I fell into all the sin I did after I was baptized in the lordship salvation crowd. Had I not I wouldn’t have been knocked down as far down as I was. I believe it to be God who knocked me down. I absolutely suffered tremendously but had I not I wouldn’t have understood how sinful my nature really was and that I simply couldn’t rely on myself. I used to feel I was a good person. Now I see I’m not. Do I try? Absolutely!!! But even I miss the mark. I am nobody but yet within Christ I am all things! Righteous before my God simply from Christ! How great thou art indeed!
I feel sad for all the individuals stuck in this teaching. We are told we have freedom in Christ. Sorry I’m not sure the book or verse at the moment. How can one be free and at the same time have a law we are bound to. Should we still sin? Absolutely not! All things are available to us but not all things are good for us.
If God is for us who dare be against us? Amen
Preston – I hate self-righteous religious hypocrites, who are not truthful about the gospel by their gospel of works. Many are those clouds without water that Peter and Jude spoke about. The worse part is they create twice the son’s of hell at times, their followers more rabid then they started out as. I just pray for people to be delivered from the fire….
Bobbie Jo, I am sorry for what you’ve been through and can relate to much. But I thank the Lord He kept you and brought you out from among them.
Wow….been there; done that.
For a while, I was considering cutting off a hand or plucking out an eye to show how faithful I could be……I HATE religion!!!!!! (how many saved people in the bible cut off a hand or plucked out an eye……..NONE!!!!)
A person has been emailing me wondering about salvation. He has grasped it and believed it (amen). He asked about works; so I answered it and why I work for the gospel. It ended with this……
I all but panic’d 4 years ago as several passages got to me as well. What a horrible feeling!!!!! I will never forget that feeling!!!! Today, I WANT in the FIGHT!!!!! I have to remember – I dont wrestle with flesh and blood BUT against principalities—-I proclaim the gospel to “flesh and blood” in hopes they will REPENT (change their minds).
I think part of the reason, I want in the fight…..how religion made me feel!!!!!! for a while, I couldn’t work, concentrate, I was awful at life…..because of religion!!!
The gospel puts one under the “free woman; NOT the bondwoman”.
FYI -self righteousness (pride) is a sin just like any other.
God Bless,
was baptized into a Church of Christ 10 years or so ago and I’m still suffering from the ill effects. Before then I always believed in God. I believed in Jesus Christ being the only begotten Son of God, dying on the cross, buried and resurrected. I believed that all with my whole heart. Then I was told I needed to be baptized for the remission of sins. I did and went strong for probably 6 months attempting to do good and prove I was a believer and “good” enough. Then my life fell apart and I stopped going. The pastor and his wife came to my home and I ignored it. So much sinning started from there. Then I decided to go with my mother in law to her church. I spent a few minutes on the floor crying and begging God for forgiveness as it seemed He was trying to convict me of all I had done.
I understand it’s hard to give up friends and fellowship but I just wanted to give you how it makes one feel. I felt I couldn’t do anything right, I was somehow defective and wondered why I couldn’t keep from sinning. They convinced me from their doctrine that I had lost salvation and God was going to send me to hell when all I ever wanted to do was make God happy and get to heaven. I gave up…I would scream at God in prayer asking why He hated me and what I had ever done and what I did wrong….asked what I did to make Him abandon me. This lordship doctrine made me feel worthless to God even 10 years later and I’m still attempting to grow in the knowledge and security of faith alone. They have made me terrified of God to the point of panic attacks. This is no minor deal. They took my joy from me when I had childlike faith in Christ. They destroyed me and hopefully, God willing, I come out of this.
This is what this does to people who are simply searching for God. My church seemed nice to me too till I was still a sinner……
Curtis, I think you hit the nail on the head. There are different types of people in both groups, deceived and deceivers. I believe there are of course the unknowing deceived within the deceiver’s group. Of course there are those who don’t believe and they know it. They are there to fleece the sheep, of course they are still deceived, but like the one pastor who admitted to not believing, but where else could he receive $240k per year he asked?
Then within the deceived, there are those who are so used to the standard proof texts within their doctrinal corral, they do not realize they’ve been penned up, but they don’t want to leave the safety of the borders. There are those who are defensive but will hear if you take it one by one with them. And some surprise the daylights out of you when they fight you with intensity, and later come back having examined the truth because of something you said, or maybe even having treated the kindly when they were spitting nails at you 🙂
Those are the best moments of my life….
Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. Luke 15:10
“For those individuals and groups that are receptive to learning the truth, we should seek to minister to them.
With any individual or group, I would go by whether they are receptive to what you are showing them from scripture, whether it is falling on deaf ears (going in one ear and out the other) or whether they are “dug in” and trying to get you to accept their compromise.”
From my own personal experience when attempting to discern ” The Truth of The Gospel” from preachers and lay people most of the time they get defensive. I find myself defending sinners with Grace in receiving eternal life . They constantly try to get off track /deflect from the Truth of positional salvation eternal life by Grace through Faith and try to make sin the condition for or of eternal Life.
Yet Gods Word says :
Rom_5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
2Co_5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now what more to do think a soul is going to do about sin for eternal life that Jesus has not already done ?
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Curtis
Sam, believe it or not, I had someone use that passage on me when I exposed the false doctrine of a signs and wonders Word of Faith, fake healer. They do it in a name that means nothing to them, one they don’t know.
I never thought from Luke that these people were false, because the other guys who tried to imitate the disciples/apostles in Acts 19, the demons overpowered and sent them fleeing naked and wounded. And also prevailed against them as Jesus told Peter the gates of hell would never do against the church, so I saw a difference there in what was happening.
That’s basically why I was saying the difference between false and true, we speak when the message is false (as I know you know) :).
thanks you all, Johninnc that is a good answer, makes sense and keeps the scripture in harmony.Holly I agree with you the message is still false whether it is ignorance or not. Curtis don’t remind me (just kidding)
Sam, I am afraid whether they are just deceiving or they are also ‘being deceived’ as 2 Tim 3:13 says, they are still against Him, for they don’t speak the truth of His gospel. That’s they way I see it. If they are His, we call them out in public, they are to be blamed, for they are not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel (Gal 2:11-18). I’d say that’s definitely forbidding them and not just allowing them to go their way 🙂
I don’t go to the intent of their hearts, but I go straight to their words, and compare them with His, and let them determine their intent with God. Many times they will make their belief apparent, and you will know in short order, if they are there to hear God’s Word or not.
If you give them the benefit of the doubt, some will want to know more, and have just been in a place of being misled for a time, and need refreshed by the truth of God’s Word being patiently, aptly and meekly laid out. Some never knew the truth in the first place so were always in bondage and never have known liberty. If they don’t seem to have a clear understanding of the gospel, I try to preach the gospel, knowing that is what they need to hear first, they can understand nothing else.. Others, they went back into bondage, bewitched into thinking they could finish in the flesh.
The message is still false. So we hate the stench of the garment and pray that we pull some from the fire Lord willing.
2Co_5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Sam, I think Luke 9:49-50 relate to a less than fully-committed disciple, not to someone preaching a false gospel. Otherwise, I can’t harmonize that passage with Galatians 1:9.
I would appreciate some help here with Luke 9;49-50.My question is this how to look at this as we know Lordship salvation is adding works but at the same time most of them don’t even recognize their adding on to the Gospel .Would verse Luke 9;50 apply to a person like that as their not against the Gospel intentionally anyway,. [Luke 9;49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Jack, Steven Anderson doesn’t believe in a Tribulation period either. Too hard to keep up with all these guys I know…
Cheryl, I certainly would agree about not breaking fellowship over rapture timing, but Steven Anderson would not. He calls people false prophets who teach it is, or says it is a ‘fairy tale’, ‘fraud’ or a ‘lie’. Seems like more than sowing discord among the brethren I would think.
Also, to not pray for your leaders, but to call for your flock to pray for them to be murdered? Try taking a look at his ‘calling upon the name of the Lord sermon’ (youtube) to see his screaming at his people and railing and throwing a fit, and slamming the Bible, and what his church is turning into. I’m seeing as a railer that I wouldn’t want to associate with, and the office of bishop, he doesn’t quite fit the good behavior role, patient, not being a brawler, or being an ensample to the flock, or meek, etc. He also screamed at a guy in the church for taking issue with him calling Barack Obama the devil, and he screamed, “If you don’t like it, get the h#ll out of MY church.
You might check his film “After the Tribulation” which scandal news guy Alex Jones touts, and see if he is basing any of his beliefs on the Old Testament prophecy (I hear there is not one mention, not even of Daniel’s 70th week). Because he denies a tribulation at all….
This is beyond rapture timing I think, but you’ll have to decide, I just wanted to give you a warning. I agree, nobody has everything perfectly, so just wanted to do my part to warn. 🙂
Please do check his wife’s blog, and see what you think if anything seems off to you Biblically speaking. I warn so others will just ‘prove all things’ before taking teaching from one that seemingly has it right.
Thanks for your reply Jim.
I look forward to listening to the sermons/presentations you have posted on your website.
Hi Curtis,
I agree with your post. I don’t find that I’m a follower of any preacher, as I have said earlier I can find disagreements with anyone (with how I understand scripture at this point). God did raise up preachers and teachers to help the flock and I find it very helpful, convicting, edifying, encouraging to listen to various men of God. I test everything that I read/watch/listen to the scriptures and have the ultimate guide, being the Holy Ghost indwelling me 🙂
I also agree with marking and avoiding those who are teaching a false gospel, as you have done here (one of the first posts I read on this site).
Cheryl
the beauty with the simplicity of the clear gospel “The simplicity of Christ 2 cor 11:3 and loving Truth we can turn off 98% of the preaching and Teaching out there. I myself strive to be an Original Voice and not an echo of any teacher or preacher, I love good sound Preaching and Teaching to help keep myself sharp . I have enough to deal with just getting along with myself.
Curtis
I agree Jack. Biblically there can be no mid or post tribute rapture.
Cheryl,
You can also find some solid free grace preaching on my Grace audio page on my blog http://www.standforthefaith.wordpress.com. You’ll may also find some of my posts of interest if you like Expreacherman.
Jim F
Btw, sadly Anderson in my view is one to stay away from based on many issues that we have discussed here in the past. I won’t rehash that discussion though. God Bless.
Cheryl
Thanks for your comments.
It might be well to clear the air about what we mean by the phrase: “Timing of the Rapture.”
If we are talking about whether the rapture will occur today, tomorrow or next week, that is legitimate and Biblical thought (speculation). The Bible speaks of the imminent taking away of believers in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
That can happen at any moment, pre- tribulation.
If we are speaking of the Rapture timing as Pre, Mid or Post tribulation there is only one viable interpretation… The Rapture MUST occur prior to the 7 year Tribulation period as described in the above verses in order to square with all other end-times scripture and God’s protection from wrath of His people.
Thank you for your interest in a clear Gospel message.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Thanks John for your reply.
My husband has now removed that video that you have mentioned. Not because we necessarily disagree with much of the content of the video, but because that isn’t the main thrust of our purpose with the website.
I agree that it is off-putting to have someone state that something you hold to be true is of the devil. However, the Bible teaches us that Satan is the father of all lies and deceptions, so I do understand that as the context that various people invoke this. For example, we boldly declare that corruption of the gospel is of Satan, which may offend many who believe in a false gospel. (I also personally hold to Satan being ultimately the father of the corruptions of God’s word….”Yea, hath God said….?” I understand that many may be offended by that as well, but I see that Satan not only attacks the gospel, but God’s inspired and preserved word).
Are there times when it isn’t appropriate to declare that any false belief (in one’s current understanding of scripture) to be of the devil? Probably. It certainly isn’t very helpful if the goal is to dialogue with someone. Sometimes we are not aware of the beam in our own eye as well. I’m always praying to be humbled when I’m wrong in my understanding and am not aware of it yet. Each time I’ve been humbled, my joy has increased in the truth. I’m sure that there is so much that I have yet to understand, but am so grateful that I understand (and believe) the gospel.
However, our understanding of the timing of the rapture is secondary to desiring to provide another avenue for people to have a clear gospel presented. Hence we have removed the video.
As to the second part of your reply, I too have moved beyond the original sources of information that I was initially using. Not only were there some problems with the gospel, but many teachings that I don’t agree with. Since then, I have been able to discover Pastors who are correct (in my understanding) of the gospel and have been greatly helped with their sermons. I happy to now add Tom’s sermons to that list. While I may not (currently) agree with all that Tom may teach (outside of the gospel), it wouldn’t prevent me from listening to his sermons.
I came to the knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ by being willing to go beyond my information bubble and deliberately listening/reading/watching people who I felt before-hand that I didn’t agree with and thought were wrong. I discovered that I had been the fool all along on the most important matters. That is how I’ve been approaching a lot of my learning of the scriptures as well. I’m a para-legal by trade and am used to researching both/all sides of a matter thoroughly before making any decisions and when/where to ‘hang my hat’.
Again, thank you for your patience in reading my long posts! 🙂
Cheryl, first and foremost, I would not break fellowship over someone’s beliefs as to the timing of the rapture. Like you, I am a relatively new believer (3 years) and many have helped me
Pastor Anderson may be clear on the gospel, but I haven’t listened to him extensively.
That said, one of the small handful of sermons that you have posted on your site is a sermon that, if I read it correctly, says that Satan is deceiving the evangelical community into believing in the pre-tribulation rapture, so that believers will not be prepared to deal with the end times. This is nothing to break fellowship over, but to suggest that we are deceived by Satan is more than a little off-putting.
Early in my life as a believer, I had become enamored with a website that seemed to be Grace oriented. The site was pivotal in helping me understand and believe eternal security (OSAS). So, I became enamored with the site. But, there were still a couple of things that bothered me about the site. One was that the OSAS discussion said that the believer represented by soil number 2 in the parable of the sower never really believed. The site said that soil 2 had “head faith” instead of “heart faith.” As a new believer, struggling with assurance, I asked myself – what if I am soil 2?
Then, one day, I noticed that it said believing wasn’t enough – that one had to both believe and ask for salvation. I fell for that for one day, asked for salvation, and then realized that I had been duped.
Following is the excerpt from the site in question:
When Believing Isn’t Enough
Q. My question is this. If a person does not have a definite instance in their life where they declare that they are a sinner and accept Christ as Saviour by praying something similar to the Sinner’s prayer (i.e. a salvation experience) are they really a believer? It was a topic of conversation with a friend who has no such experience yet believes she will go to heaven and longs to see Christ.
A. Romans 10:9 states that there are two conditions necessary for salvation. 1) confess with your mouth and 2) believe in your heart. Verse 10 continues, “It is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.” Romans 10:13 says that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.
It sounds like your friend has believed in her heart. What prevents her from formally asking the Lord to save her? Does she understand that the word confess means to agree that she’s a sinner in need of a Savior, not to spout off a list of all her sins? The Lord already knows what all of her sins are. Now He’s waiting for her to ask Him to save her. She doesn’t need to do this publicly or even audibly, but she does need to do it.
So, even if someone has helped me to understand the gospel, or an important doctrine, I am always on guard for error.
Because error begets error.
Hi John,
I wrote my first rely without seeing your second post.
I’m aware that Pastor Arnold and Pastor Anderson have different views on the timing of the rapture. The purpose of our website isn’t to only post Pastors with whom we have 100% agreement on all matters. If that was the case, then we wouldn’t be able to post any. It is also possible that we aren’t yet aware of certain matters that we may disagree with someone since we haven’t listened to every sermon preached by any particular Pastor.
I had found a certain inconsistency with certain people and Pastors who would lead a brand new believer in prayer when hearing the gospel. In my understanding, when you believe you are saved.
Near the end of a sermon from Pastor Anderson about ‘why Christians may doubt their salvation’ he deals with ‘did I pray right’. He clarifies that what was prayed doesn’t matter. It is what you have believed. You are saved based on what you believe, not on what you have prayed and that the prayer isn’t what saves you. It is just a form of ‘calling upon the name of the Lord’.
Just as someone who can’t speak, either due to illness, injury etc. they are saved based on what they believe. If they confess their belief it is because they are saved. This is different than some ‘salvation’ messages that I’ve read online that states that one MUST pray to be saved, which I find to be inconsistent.
When I have given the gospel, I have finished with asking a series of questions about if they have believed 1…..2….3…4..etc. If they have said “yes” they believe the gospel, then I have told them the bible teaches that they are now saved. Then I have asked, would you like to pray to our Father in Heaven to confess your beliefs to Him and thank Him for His gift of everlasting life. I have always been met with a positive response to pray.
As to Pastor Arnold’s closing during one of his sermons, I don’t recall him closing in that way (either because I have forgotten or haven’t seen it). The good news is that God has made his plan of salvation so simple that it is what we believe and not how we may fumble in our words in expressing our beliefs. 🙂
Hi Holly and John,
Thanks for your replies. While I can’t say that I agree with everything that Pastor Anderson says, I can’t say that about anyone. I agree and respect Pastor Arnold too, but can’t say that I agree with everything he has said either. I’ve listened to several Pastors who have preached the true gospel of Jesus Christ and still find that there are matters that I would find that (at this point in my understanding) that I would disagree with.
Some of those things we may not agree with either among ourselves. I have also found that I have been persuaded to change my view when I have been taught from the bible that my initial understanding was incorrect.
For instance, since I was coming to faith via people on the internet, several that I ‘knew’ teach that the sons of God in Genesis 6 were fallen angels. In they way it was explained to me made sense and I could see how that fit in to the end of days that we appear to be approaching. It was during the first sermon of Pastor Anderson’s that I watched preaching (hard) against the Hebrew Roots movement that he declared it to be a false doctrine as we’ll. I disagreed with him at the time. Later, I was willing to hear him out on the matter and he showed from scripture that sons of God always referred to believers and that angels specifically were not called sons. Either way, it isn’t a disagreement that I would consider breaking fellowship over.
Much like the Pastor of the church I was attending preached from an amillennial view. I wouldn’t have considered separating over this and forsaking fellowship, even though I disagree (as I was learning about eschatology I leaned more in the amillennial view myself, but now ‘hang my hat’ on pre-millennialism. First and foremost I believe it is the gospel we need to fellowship around (I imagine that there may be other things that warrant separation, but to me clearly the gospel is key).
Pastor Anderson’s sermons on the false repentance doctrine were some that helped me and I had my husband listen to when he was coming to faith. At the time, he was the only YouTube preacher I knew who preached it so clearly.
I would be very happy to listen to your concerns where you think he deviates from the gospel. It is the gospel I want to defend, not any man.
Cheryl
here is a sermon from Yankee on 1 John 1:9 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAyBnekLKu4
Cheryl, It is interesting that you have both Yankee Arnold and Steve Anderson sermons on your site, since Yankee Arnold is a pre-tribulationist, and Steve Anderson is a staunch post-tribulationist.
The Statement of Faith from Yankee Arnold’s church contains the following:
“We believe that the Rapture consists of the coming of Christ from heaven and the saints on earth meeting Him in the air. We believe in the personal, premillenial, and pretribulational return of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ (I Thessalonians 5:9-11; 1:10; 4:13-18; Titus 2:13; I Corinthians 15:51-53).”
Yankee Arnold is generally clear on the gospel, although I have heard him conclude one of his online sermons with a gospel invitation that emphasizes the importance of talking to God to confess that one knows he is a sinner and is accepting Christ as Savior.
I also heard Yankee say that the unbeliever needs to confess he is a sinner, while the believer needs to confess individual sins – perhaps in reference to 1 John 1:9. This has led me to think that Yankee may believe that 1 John 1:9 is BOTH a salvation passage and a fellowship passage, depending on the spiritual position of the audience.
I am no Bible scholar, but I see lots of stories in the Bible in which someone has received Christ, with no mention of any attendant confession, or prayer. In fact, I can’t find any Biblical precedent for confession being necessary, or even relevant, in accepting Christ as Savior.
Rather, one needs to know he is a sinner, in need of a Savior, and trust in Christ alone in order to be saved.
Holly, I am also extremely uncomfortable with pastor Steven Anderson. Not only is he post-trib, but he is vitriolic and antagonistic in the way he attacks pre-trib teaching.
Cheryl, Since I am from Phoenix, I’d like to caution you on Steven Anderson which I notice you have on your website. He’s the one who made headlines praying for O-bama’s death. He is IFB and has a lot of strange ideas, as does his wife if you get time to peruse her site. A definite mark and avoid although briefly he seems to have the grace message, he does not. As well as teaching post trib I believe (definitely not pre). If you’d like more info, I’d have to look into my notes, but just wanted to give you a heads up on him. God bless your choices as He directs your path.
JOHNINNC, Thanks for your reply.
I wrote that just to clarify the Bible saying someone “believed” – in each instance, WHAT exactly did they believe (not to asume saving faith) because there is a difference between belief in Christ and other types of belief. In Baltimore the city had a slogan painted all over the place.. “Believe!” — Praise God we have an Object of faith!
CHERYL, great testimony. We care confident continue to lead you, faithful is He who called you— and HE will also do it!!! 1Th5.24.
Back on topic… you guys better be careful of standing for the truth so boldly & encouraging people to leave a false gospel church… Get ready for the accusation, slander & maligning attacks.. From our experience, if there’s one thing that gets false gospel preachers mad & willing to crusade against you, it’s that! (Not that we’re intimidated!)
God bless
Thanks John for the link to Pastor Cucuzza’s sermons. My husband and I are always interested in listening to sermons by good preachers. It seems there are so few out there. Since we are listening each to several sermons a day, it is wonderful to have another teacher of the word (of course the Holy Ghost is the best teacher :)).
I have had our older daughter listening to Pastor ‘Yankee’ Arnold and his sermons surrounding the gospel, false teaching and difficult passages. His sermons are so clear as well.
Cheryl
Cheryl,
You have a powerful testimony and may God bless you and your husband as you seek to spread the gospel. Church plant work is hard but infinitely well worth it. Maybe you will encourage others to follow your example.
Jim F
Cheryl, thanks for adding context!
You may want to check out Tom Cucuzza’s sermons from Northland Bible Baptist Church. See link below:
http://northlandchurch.com/2011/sermon-archives
Hello everyone. I’m the one who wrote asking the question(s) and asked for guidance. I’m so grateful for the quick reply and thoughtful consideration of my inquiry, it has been very helpful.
My husband and I considered what the scripture had to say on the matter and we decided that we would part from this “church”, but would do so at the end of February due to my husband volunteering to assist in cleaning the building during February.
Unfortunately, the Pastor ‘doubled-down’ on his LS gospel this past Sunday. I had been attending this church for the past 11 months with my 4 year old daughter. My husband got saved late this past summer and our 14 year old within two months after my husband. As most of the preaching was only dealing with a couple of verses each Sunday and wasn’t dealing with the gospel, it wasn’t until recently I was able to discern that the Pastor believes in a false LS gospel. (I do not know if he has always believed this and I’m not making any judgment if he is saved or not, but he currently believes this and has now clearly preached this during a sermon.)
Beginning in the summer, I had begun starting to assemble a cogent gospel presentation for myself using many verses from the Bible and have had wonderful joy seeing God’s word (being preached by me) bringing my family, a dear friend and her daughter, my niece and my neighbour to saving faith. I continue to share the gospel with other friends and family. I had been asked to share my experience at church the end of November with my neighbour coming to faith as inspiration to others to share the good news. This experience was the beginning of understanding that the Pastor and elders believed in a different gospel than the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. (There had been other signs before this, but not leading into the Pastor and myself having direct discussions over the content of the gospel.)
I spoke to an elder about it twice and I spoke to the Pastor about it and we also had an email exchange with myself including many scripture passages. So, there was definitely a background and context to his sermon this past Sunday. He preached from Matthew 4:12-25 and said that the gospel was to ‘repent’ – being loosely defined as asking for forgiveness of sins and turning and following Jesus. That we are to respond to the “Good News” by “turning around and following Jesus” (that is taken directly out of the weekly sermon in the bulletin).
The Pastor often opens up for questions and/or discussion after the sermon and he did again this Sunday. I’m happy to say that one fellow (who often leads the music) that ‘the Bible says that we must believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and we then have the Holy Spirit indwelling us’. There were other responses as well, which showed there was some resistance to this sermon and discernment that this wasn’t the gospel as many church-goers understood it. I couldn’t resist piping up – in defence of the gospel and contending for the faith – quoting Eph 2:8-9 and stressing that it is not of ourselves, it is what God promises us, not what we promise God.
After this past Sunday, I have resolved to immediately separate from this “church”. I continue to pray for those who assemble there for discernment for both those who are already saved and for those who may not be that they stand strong in the faith or coming to the knowledge of the true gospel.
We have already made a decision to move to Windsor Ontario. Over the internet, I’m not able to find a church preaching the true gospel. So, we will go door-to-door brining the gospel and will pray and look for guidance about planting a church there.
We have just started a website (link removed by administrator) and have uploaded a gospel message. Since the Bible teaches that faith comes by hearing and preaching (Romans 10:17 and 1 Cor. 1:21), we will also be recording the gospel message and adding it to the top of the page. I’m currently working on our “Statement of Faith”, which will be posted on the “About” page. I’ve read this website’s statement of faith and I can assure you that ours will be quite similar. That being said, I understand that you may not post a link to our new site and I appreciate your cautious discernment with your decisions on this area.
Thank you for your patience reading this lost post
Speedy, I think the people that you described (“emotional type of misplaced pseudo/false faith”) are all represented by soil number one. They have heard a false gospel, either before, during, or after hearing the real gospel. Satan takes the Word out of their hearts either preemptively or after these people hear the gospel.
Soils 2-4 all represent saved people. In fact, the word “believe” is only used in reference to soil two in the Luke 8:13-15 passage:
[13] They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
[14] And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
[15] But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
I hope this is not diverting, Johninnc, but your comment on
“soil number 2 in the parable of the sower” got me thinking.
I consider these to be 4 types of hearers, and I believe that we, as an eternally saved individuals, could & possibly do, fluctuate between the 4, often. Yet we can never lose our salvation (though we would lose the experience and fellowship of it!). So there’s no question about to salvation the way I read it.
But I would like love to hear your comment on the following:
“Emotional hearers”. (By APPLICATION, some unregenerate gospel hearers could believe, in a sort of an emotional way (1) the gospel preacher, (2) that what he’s preaching is true, yet (3) not believe the Person & finished Work of Christ is enough for them. By application, could we not class these as very similar to “soil 2” hearers. What exactly do emotional hearers believe?
In the same class, I suppose one could put the Samaritans who Phillip preached to. This is a good point. People have asked me about this group. By sight, they appeared to believe. They did believe… something! At least they believed (1) in Phillip, and (2) that his preaching, about Christ was true. And they were so excited about it! But they did not personally trust Christ for salvation.
Now, without compromising on the gospel of grace, & on the one requirement of simple faith in the Person and Work of Christ at Calvary (being enough for one personally) –which instantly gives them the gift of eternal life, absolutely free…
& Without (as Bing so nicely put on his site), making faith some hard thing to exercise, categorizing many types of faith which don’t save..
I would like to be balanced here.
-Do we recognize a phenomenon which could be called “emotional hearers”, who profess some sort of faith, yet don’t possess salvation.
-Do we recognize that one could, in their emotions, believe a preacher, excitedly, and believe that he is preaching the truth, yet, (through dullness of hearing), not believe the truth itself? I think there is a huge difference.
Practically, they may hear the finished work gospel of grace, and excitedly, believe that the preacher is preaching the truth, but not understand/hear/get/believe The Truth, personally. So they go off and claim to believe the gospel, yet they never really heard/got/understood/saw/perceived/believed the gospel, as evidenced by the fact that they will excitedly confess something along the lines of… they “have decided they will follow Jesus”, or to “become a Christian”, or “dedicate/give their life to Christ”, and therefore are probably not saved at all, yet are very excited and claim they are “believers”. And if you ask them what they believe, their confession would indicate that they are still trusting in self. They might agree in an intellectually dead theological way, or even in an excited emotional way, that they believe Jesus came to earth to die for their sins, and as the clear gospel campaign tract so nicely pointed out, they might believe that it was “necessary” –yet they don’t believe it’s was “enough”! So they do have, or would claim to have, some sort of a faith. But upon further examination, you find it is misplaced! It is not saving faith! When you enquire further, they clearly believe that they have to work on getting rid of their sins!!!! And they never have entered into the Heb4 “faith rest” of someone who has accepted Christ as their Savior/Substitute.
Does this emotional type of misplaced pseudo/false faith exist in some people, after a perfectly clear gospel presentation? I fear I have come across it sometimes.
I’m sorry this post was so long & hope it’s not too way off topic. Thanks
Tom, thanks for weighing in with sound advice!
Dear Friends,
May I suggest to you several ideas if you cannot find a good, Bible believing, salvation by grace alone, church:
1. Contact a sound Bible College such as Dayspring Bible College and Seminary. While I cannot speak for them, there is always the possibility that if there are enough people who want a sound church in an area, they may be able to supply someone to “pastor” it. Again, I am not speaking for them, this is only a possibility.
2. Start one yourselves. This is not as “far out” as one might think. There are many people, such as myself, who would help provide teaching and equipping through internet teaching and years of messages on CD, to where a person can learn the Word of God. There is also good Bible Study Software that can aid and educate the Pastor/teacher. Then, take what is learned and apply it to the growth of a local church that you have started in the way of outreach and ministry, all along continuing to learn the Word. If we look at the New Testament pattern for church planting you do not see decades of training in seminaries. You see saved, qualified people, (see 1 Tim 3:1-13, Titus 1:6-9; and 1 Peter 5:1-4) equipped with the truth and passionate about Christ and the gospel, starting and leading churches.
2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
3. Most importantly, pray for God’s direction on this.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Tom Cucuzza
It is true that the more we are in the strong meat of His Word, the more we will be able to discern between good and evil. Good men may not know how they have become unclear on the gospel by the myriad of messages and voices all over now, but we have to be clear so we can be ready with an answer. Many I believe may not know that reason of the hope that is within us at all.
thanks for the solid advice and answers.I can agree with you both as a lot of the things you have mentioned are in line with my own experience.Im starting to see that theres nothing new under the sun.
Curtis, I would add one:
Ask the pastor whether the person represented by soil number 2 in the parable of the sower is saved or is not saved. Any answer other than “saved” indicates that he is unclear on the gospel.
Tips to finding a Clear Gospel Church is
1. prayer and take a stand for yourself for the Truth of the Gospel and make declaration to stand for the Truth of the Gospel and make your request known to God and Thankful for knowing the Truth of the Gospel.
2. be firm on the biblical Gospel yourself and the definition of Repent
3. The Church doctrinal statement needs to be clear on how to receive salvation and repentance and NOT turning from sin to receive salvation.
4. you can repent of sin and never believe the gospel but you can not believe the gospel with out repenting
5. repent means to “change your mind” that Jesus is the only way to salvation you can not earn a free gift
6.there are some baptist in nature churches who are solid on the gospel and believe the KJV is the preserved word of God
Please I am not KJV only but the KJV is precious to me and if you find a KJV only church more than not they will be solid on the gospel but don’t let your guard down
7. church doctrinal statement must have Justification and Sanctification separate or the bible will contradict itself all Lordship Salvation churches I have seen mix them together or say they must not be separate.
8. there maybe more people than you know in your area who are out there hungry to hear the Clear Gospel many people were and are very happy for me that I have been set free from Legalism and on the Clear Gospel of Grace
9. Calvary Community Church of Tamap FL ” Ralph “Yankee” Arnold has live streaming church while you seek fellowship. The best live streaming I have seen.
10. email or call the lead pastor if they pass the doctrinal statement then ask what does biblical repentance mean to them. If they say well “I see you are aware of Lordship salvation” and want to debate you just move a long you are not looking for debate. Or they say “there is more to just simply believing” be careful a Lordship Salvation Pastor in a pulpit is not going to change they are bound by the churches doctrinal statement or constitution somewhere Few very Few come out of Indoctrination..
11. listen to recorded sermons after the questions and listen for a Clear Biblical Gospel Presentation , you should feel good after a sermon but yet challenged. You should be able to rest well after hearing from God’s Word.
these are some things I used that helped me find the assembly I now attend and I Prayerfully hope they spare you some pain looking for a place of fellowship of your own.
Curtis
Sam, I think that in Galatians 2:11-14 Paul was criticizing Peter for having separated from meeting with gentiles, out of Peter’s unwarranted fear of the false teachers (the judaizers who taught that one could not be saved without being circumcised). In this instance, Peter had inappropriately discontinued eating with the gentile believers out of fear of “them which were of the circumcision.”
Regarding Hebrews 10:25, I believe that this passage relates to Hebrew believers who were being persecuted and were at risk of returning to the Jewish sacrificial practices. Forsaking the assembly would have enhanced the risk that these believers would return to those practices, because they would have been isolated from other believers. In a like manner, when we are isolated from other believers, we are more at risk.
It is God’s will that we be in a church with other believers. Assembling with other believers should be a priority. However, I believe that many “churches” are simply clubs that teach false gospels.
Having been brought up in Southern Baptist churches that were not clear on the gospel, I err on the side of caution. If I can’t quickly determine that a church is clear on the gospel, I assume that it is not.
Since coming to faith in Christ about three years ago, we began attending an SBC church that had a grace-oriented statement of faith. I had some conversations with the pastor about the errors of the SBC. Deep down, i think he knew I was right, but he couldn’t bring himself to admit it. Ultimately, his refusal to acknowledge the false doctrine of the SBC, combined with ordaining deacons who worked for the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, convinced me that this particular church would never be a good fit for me. The pastor seemed happy for us to go away as well, even suggesting another church for us to attend (it was an EFCA church that didn’t pan out either).
I can generally tell the doctrine of a church by what their members tell me. For example, I was in a Bible study in which one of the group said that “a true Christian will always come back to the faith” if he drifts. I looked up the statement of faith for the church that he attends and it looked OK. But, I read their pastor’s blog and found strong Calvinist perseverance of the saints beliefs.
Another example is from a young man I work with who attends an SBC church. He told me yesterday that his daughter’s Sunday school teacher told the children that good works are not required for salvation, but that they WILL follow salvation.
This is a question I struggled with myself, as its hard to leave a church after you make friends and you have scripture saying Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.Heb 10;25 .Its hard to find a clear Gospel church, but I agree with Curtis statement above it sums up my own personal experiences. If anyone would like to respond on Heb 10;25 I would like to hear your advice on how to take this verse in context with Gal 2;11-14 .I did respectfully discuss these issues with the pastor and others but as Curtis said ( once you get a taste of the pure crystal clear Gospel of Grace of Ephesians 2:8,9 nothing else satisfies you will not be able to sit under a Lordship Salvation Pulpit and be satisfied.)In my case I was frustrated and needed to move on, but I don’t think I could I could done anything else. thanks Johinnc this is a good question that needs answering
“The teaching and preaching of Lordship Salvation can foster a tremendous state of anxiety and doubt for some believers because its precepts demand a high level of purity of thought and lifestyle under girded by the constant threat of not having been blameless enough or virtuous enough to merit salvation.”
from a paper called Driven by Bruce Bauer – free Grace Alliance
I am so happy for you to read your testimony and Yet I feel for you as a couple as you search for the Preaching of the Simple Clear Gospel. I am happy you see the Clarity of the Gospel now rather than years and years down the road. Few very Few come out from Lordship Salvation Indoctrination.
once you get a taste of the pure crystal clear Gospel of Grace of Ephesians 2:8,9 nothing else satisfies you will not be able to sit under a Lordship Salvation Pulpit and be satisfied.
Curtis
To our fellow discerning Believer and her husband,
What a wonderful testimony. We will pray for you and your husband.
John – excellent !!
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack