Calvinists believe that God chose certain individuals to be saved, consigning all others to a hopeless eternity in hell, before they were ever born.
The prospect of a god that would create precious human beings expressly for the purpose of eternal destruction is abhorrent. The God of the Bible provided a means of salvation to any and everyone who will trust in Jesus Christ as Savior.
One of the often-overlooked verses in refuting the unbiblical notion that people are predestined to either heaven or hell is John 3:18:
“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but, he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
How could someone who has not believed be condemned already if God has pre-ordained that he will go to heaven? We know that Jesus cannot lie, so we must accept what He says here at face value.
Believers were condemned before they believed in Jesus as Savior. Non-believers are still condemned.
Non-believers are condemned BECAUSE they are non-believers.
How much more clear can it be?
Eternal life is available for everyone – including you. Check here: Eternal Life For You
Excellent insight. A complete misunderstanding of God’s will. They cannot comprehend that He might will something to be one way, yet allow free will from another, which is also exactly why they have to then assign God willing for people to be raped, murdered, etc.
Phil, agree completely. Calvinists mistakenly assume that God’s will always happens.
It is God’s will that all men be saved. However, not all men will be saved.
I learned in the past that there is a root problem in Calvinist/ Reformed thinking: It is in their basic presumptions about God’s will and it guides all their interpretations of salvation in the Bible.
i watched a TV show where a panel was discussing free will vs. election. I soon found out they were all reformed thinking. They used John 3:16 and others that clearly show us that salvation is offered to ALL; but these Calvinists tried to show that these passages were “really” meant to be understood as limited atonement for the elect. In other words, it was like they were reading like “God so loved the elect he that he gave his only Son so that the whosoever (of the elect) who believes would receive eternal life.” To us here at Exp this is a complete twisting of the meaning of John 3:16.
The root of Calvinist thinking is that they just assume that Christ could not possibly have died for people who he knew would never accept Him as Savior.
This is the false assumption that limited atonement, perseverance…and the other five points rest upon. It’s false doctrines based on false assumptions about the extent of God’s grace.
I’ve got news for them; Nothing can stop or stand in the way of the saving grace of God. It is offered freely to anyone and everyone who will accept it.
Penelope, except we know there is only one false god, and that is a god that blinds people from believing the glorious gospel. That is exactly what the Calvinist god does. He blinds many minds of the Calvinist non-elect, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
They say it’s all about God’s glory… Hmmmm…verse 6 continues, For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
So their god who is all about glory, blinds minds, tells people in the Word He desires none should perish, that He wants us to pray for ALL men because He desires all to be saved, yet their god is the very same god that keeps a multitude of men from being saved for his glory? Yes, makes perfect sense… (not!)
John – the law of sowing and reaping, interesting Calvinist take… I have been readying for Isaiah, it’s interesting just how many words would be false. How can someone rebel if God didn’t make them rebel, and in that case, it’s not rebellion. Makes absolutely no sense. How come someone refuse if God made them refuse, they are not really refusing but doing what God made them do. This Emperor’s New clothes teaching is tiresome.
Penelope, that is ironic. Anyone making that comment must feel pretty good about always doing God’s will.
Ironically, the youth pastor told me if we accept God’s saving power from His wrath and yet don’t accept His ongoing work in our lives, then we create a false god.
Penelope, that is why Calvinists are guilty of ongoing idolatry – creating a false god.
Going back to an earlier comment…. Many places, if not all, in the NT, the word for “disobedient” is a word that means “withholding or refusing to believe.” Therefore, unbelievers are disobedient to God for REFUSING to believe. It’s a choice. Since no one is without excuse based on creation’s witness to us, then being an unbeliever is simply disobeying God. “You had one job! ONE JOB!”
Calvinism is not a thinking-man’s religion. It’s a regurgitated theology (pre-chewed food spit into the waiting mouths of people who don’t want to chew their own food) devoid of logic and sound Biblical interpretation. Since our youth pastor is textbook LS, I am on a quest to teach my junior high SS kids the attributes of God and basic interpretation – i.e. the Bible does not contradict itself, context, context, context, using CLEAR passages to interpret obscure ones (not vice versa), take it literally unless clearly not meant literally. I figure they are going to the lion’s den next year (unless he is fired, as he should be) and need a good dose of Biblical literacy and logic to withstand his heresy.
God’s attritibutes – all of them, in perfect balance of 100% each, never more of one at the expense of another (like sovereignty over, say, just and righteous, as Calvinists would have you believe) – PROVE eternal security and free grace without quoting a single verse. VERSES backing that up are icing on the cake, sealing the deal. God can never be less than what He is at any given time. God is always 100% soveriegn, just, faithful/true, righteous/holy/good, eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, love, and immutable and always perfectly balanced, satisfying each at any given time. We see this perfectly shown at the cross where ALL attritibutes were perfectly on display.
Predestination CAN’T be true based on God’s character alone. Oh, and then He made promises and clearly stated it wasn’t, so there’s that. 🙂
Another verse that prove Calvinism false:
Galatians 6:7: Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
The Calvinist version would read “…for whatsoever god soweth into a man, that shall the man also reap.”
I’d like to say here that if someone is off on their gospel, we absolutely cannot take any teaching from them elsewhere, or we can be deceived, and worse, others can be lost.
Never mind… it read them anyhow…. So it took out the spaces for me….sorry…
That is so demonic. It’s the lie of Satan (as I know you know), I am just sitting here shaking my head at how wicked of a statement. How calloused and hard hearted those who call themselves ‘the elect’ are. It reminds me of what may be a very sad reality for many of them. I think on how many of them say the church IS Israel. They think they are now the Jews. Whatever they think, it is so tragic to see their line of wicked reasoning attributed to God. I think of this spoken to the church of Philadelphia in Rev 3.
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
By the way when you want something bold, put (take out the spaces) before the word, and when you want it to end, put a forward slash in front of the /b with the same brackets on either side I don’t think you’ll see it if I show you, but same goes with italics. Just take out the spaces from the examples below.
This line is bold. (bold has been ended)
This line is italics. (italics has been ended)
Hope that is understandable.
I recently saw something posted on a social media site that, in my opinion, shows the illogical thinking and sick mindset behind the Calvinist tenet of predestination. So I decided this is as good a place as any on this blog to share it.
I’m going to refrain from giving details about how I found it, and which social networking site it was taken from. But I can tell you the context and intent behind it are unmistakeably from someone who believes in eternal security, but not the the way those of us who post here regularly (in a supportive manner of course) understand it. I can also tell you that the person who shared this stuff had a LOT of things devoted to the teaching of John MacArthur.
Here’s the quote:
Eternal Security: Once Saved, Always Saved.
Either you is and always was, or you ain’t and never will be. You in?
I have offset the above in rows comprised of asterisks because I don’t know how to format text here.
Now, the first line is basically the “title” of the content that follows, and then there’s the “cute little” description below it, bad English obviously being tongue-in-cheek.
A lot of scriptures come to mind, but for me the one that jumps out the most is “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:” – Gal. 1:6 (KJV)
And the key word here for me is “marvel.” I don’t even know where to begin with this one.
The first part, “Either you is and always was” seems to point to the Calvinist’s understanding of faith being a “gift” from God (rather than faith being our volitional response to God’s gift of grace). This gives insight into the Calvinist’s embrace of the “mystical” aspect of the plan of salvation as they understand it. In other words, this statement is so self-contradictory and illogical that it’s no surprise the Calvinist has to rely on words like, “mystery” and “paradox.” I once had a Calvinist tell me, “Yes, it’s a paradox, but paradoxes bounce off God.” And of course this also sheds light on how the Calvinist thinks everyone who makes it to heaven was always predestined to get there because God chose them out of the unsaved masses of sinful humanity to be saved while NOT choosing all the other untold billions of unlucky so-and-so’s who somehow are responsible for their own salvation (or lack thereof) even though (according to the Calvinist’s understanding) God never gave them a way of being able to have saving faith.
But the more insidious part is the second half of the sentence: “or you ain’t and never will be.”
Oh, really? Then why even try to be saved then? Obviously it’s on the surface just the flip side of the first half of the sentence. But the last part, “and never will be,” really speaks volumes about what the Calvinist is willing to swallow whole (as in a camel) without thinking it through. Think about it. NEVER will be? Whether saved in the past and now deceived, or as unsaved deceivers, folks that believe, preach and propagate this lie will have nobody to blame but themselves regardless of which judgement they face, for accepting this idea that, so far as I can tell is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN SCRIPTURE.
As is usually the case with me, this is rather long, so I’ll stop now . . .
Holly and John,
I also disagree with the Pickering quote every time I see it. I think he was giving MacArthur WAY too much credit and Pickering has written some things against LS but I don’t agree with everything thing he says either. Same goes for Rob Congdon. He was at the Grace conference last year and had a couple good sessions but is not going to be exactly with us on every single point. I remember a few things in some of his books that I disagreed with though the books do have good content as well. It really depends what those things are. I’d have to go back and look. I don’t like the quote for the statement of faith that John quoted for obvious reasons. It bugs me and I may even ask him about it if I see him at the conference this year.
Holly, Lou also links “Congdon Ministries International.” Following is an excerpt from CMI’s statement of faith:
Further, we believe the Scriptures teach that regeneration, or the new birth, is that change wrought in the soul by the Holy Spirit at salvation by which a new nature and a new spiritual life, not before possessed, are imparted, and the person becomes a new creation in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17,18). The mind is given a holy disposition, the will subdued, the dominion of sin broken, and the affections changed from a love of sin and self to a love of holiness and God. The change is instantaneous, effected solely by the power of God at the time one trust in Christ as their Savior. The evidence of salvation is found in a changed disposition of mind, the fruits of righteousness, and a newness of life (John 3:1-18, 14:6; Acts 4:12; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:1-10; Heb. 9:22; 1 Peter1:18,19).
I think this is unbiblical on at least two levels:
1. “The affections changed from a love of sin and self to a love of holiness and God.”
My comment: That’s odd. Someone forgot to tell Peter, Paul, or James. They wrote (to believers):
James 1:21: Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
1 Peter 2:11: Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
Romans 6:12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
2. “The evidence of salvation is found in a changed disposition of mind, the fruits of righteousness, and a newness of life”
Evidence to whom? The only evidence of whether or not someone is a believer is if they are trusting in Christ alone to get them to heaven.
Holly, in addition to the sentiments regarding MacArthur, the suggested links on the website (In Defense of the Gospel) include two links to articles from Middletown Bible Church (George Zeller). Zeller is “back-door” LS all day long.
One of the articles from Middletown is: “The Teachings of Zane Hodges, Dillow, Wilkin (the GES)”. I am very much opposed to the cross-less gospel taught by Hodges and Wilkin. However, much of the content of Middletown’s article demonstrates a strong “perseverance of the saints” bent from Zeller. This was the source of the article I wrote a couple of years ago called “The Truth Lies Somewhere in Between.”
If you go to the Middletown link from Lou’s website (I wouldn’t), Middletown teaches:
1. That 1 John is a “signs of life” book (versus signs of fellowship)
2. That it is wrong to give the following people assurance of salvation.
Should we encourage a person to have assurance of salvation who persists in the sin of prostitution or homosexuality?
Should we encourage a person to have assurance of salvation even though he has no desire for God’s Word, he refuses to assemble together with God’s people, he has no prayer life, he never tells anyone about the Lord and his life manifests nothing but the works of the flesh?
3. That good works are the necessary outcome of saving faith.
4. That belief in free grace is a “ridiculous extreme.”
There are extreme and erroneous positions in either direction, reminding us of an old saying, “The pendulum swings, ridiculous extreme, bypassing truth which lieth between.” On the one extreme is the Lordship salvation position which teaches that submission, obedience, surrender, and the fulfillment of the conditions of discipleship are requirements for salvation. On the other extreme is the “free grace” position which teaches that it is possible for a true believer to follow a consistent pattern of disobedience and rebellion, even to the point of denying the faith, rejecting Christ and becoming a total apostate. The correct Biblical teaching lies somewhere between these two extreme positions.
5. That a person who intends to continue to sin is not saved. (My comment: this is the same thing as saying one must be willing to turn from sin to be saved). Following is a quote:
If we are honest and face reality we must admit that there are times when every true believer rebels against Christ’s authority and is disobedient to His Word. Total submission to His Lordship requires total obedience to all His commands, and we all have fallen short of this. Consider the following two statements from professing believer A and from professing believer B:
Professing believer A: “I have received Christ as my Saviour but I refuse to submit to Him as Lord! I reject His authority over my life and I refuse to obey Him. I’m glad to have Him as my Saviour from hell, but He is not going to tell me what to do.”
Professing believer B: “I want to obey my Lord, the One who died for me, but there are many times when I fail. My heart is deeply grieved when I fail to obey Him and I’m convicted and bothered and often miserable. I have dishonored my Lord and brought shame to His Name.” We are reminded of Peter who, after he had sinned, “went out and wept bitterly” (Luke 22:62) or of Lot whose righteous soul was vexed (2 Peter 2:7-8).
Professing believer A, by his words and attitude, does not give much evidence of having a real, personal, saving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Professing believer B seems to be a true possessor of Christ, because although he has sinned and rebelled against his Lord, he was bothered and broken about it. The Spirit of God who indwells a sinning believer is grieved, and He makes His grieved presence felt. As R.Gene Reynolds has written, “A person who is living sinfully, who knows he is living sinfully, who enjoys living in such a manner, who intends to continue that sinful way of living—that person does not have the Holy Spirit living within him. The very fact that he is ‘comfortable’ about his sin is proof of the Spirit’s absence. His spiritual vital sign registers, ‘no life.’ ” [R. Gene Reynolds, Assurance (Tyndale House), page 73]
I think Lou means well, but I don’t think he is very discerning.
Jim, as I was catching up with the comments here, ironically, before the link to the other site, you said, “the trick of the devil really is to call good evil and make evil appear to be good”.
Speaking of which, Dave Wyatt, I used to take teaching from Arnold Fructenbaum, praise God I was stopped several times and got ‘hung up’ if you will over certain things. I pray you think again, without at least warning, to provide a link to a known Calvinist. Jesus warned of just a little leaven.
Can we chew the leavened meat and spit out the bones?
I wonder sometimes if Paul wept day and night for those three years out of some frustration somewhat at getting the elders to listen at how important it was to take heed to the flock….
Jim, I was with you, when in doubt, give them the gospel. But as for any teacher, an elder, or a pastor, they are not of good report, they do not have sound speech that cannot be condemned, their doctrine is not good, their gospel is another, their Jesus is another, they have to be called a false prophet, a false teacher, a ravening wolf, and not be wished God Speed by another seemingly sound teacher like Pickering. Somehow he cannot simply say, they do not abide in His doctrine, they preach another gospel, they are accursed…This is what the Word instructs Pickering, never to judge a wolf to have good motives.
To judge their motives to be “sincere” to call him a “servant of the Lord” is unrighteous judgment. And to even think he knows what MacArthur “desperately desires”, or that somehow that MacArthur has somehow remedied this by changing the terms of the gospel? I’m sorry, but Pickering shares in his evil deeds, and I pray Lou will see this, for he’s passing it along as somehow a good way to think of MacArthur.
MacArthur is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He preaches another gospel, and as per the gift offered to ALL men in Romans 5, MacArthur preaches another gospel, and as per the Lordship portion, MacArthur is the same as the Judaizers and is accursed. Probably they’d all think I’m too strong and going overboard. Maybe some here might also think I’m harsh….
But you know what? I’m SO tired of men not standing up and calling a wolf a wolf and making sheep stumble through compromise, or worse, the unsaved stay lost. These wishy washy comments are damaging, and they need to see this and remember they are to take heed to the doctrine saving themselves and their hearers.
Thank you John for speaking clearly, I started reading yesterday and came to back to finish on Jim’s link. I was pretty upset by that comment, and had not read your comment, but answered on the blog, don’t know how immediately they are moderated, but I am very appreciative you spoke up about what was said about MacArthur. How does Pickering address MacArthur as sincere? Or even know what he “desperately desires”? Here is what I said.
I’m reminded of John 7:24 in the statement by Pickering above,“John MacArthur is a sincere servant of the Lord, of that we have no doubt…..He desperately desires to see holiness, lasting fruit, and continuing faithfulness in the lives of Christian people. This reviewer and we believe all sincere church leaders desire the same…. But the remedy for this condition is not found in changing the terms of the gospel.”
Lou, has Pickering judged with a righteous judgment or according to appearance? Has he really proven all things? MacArthur is not just off in the gospel, which by itself is enough for us to be told to mark and avoid, not share in their evil deeds, that they are accursed, but even believers (Peter and Barnabas) were called hypocrites, and told they were to be blamed for they were not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel.
Just as much as we’d be wrong to say we know for sure they are a servant of evil, I believe it’s wrong to call them sincere servants of the Lord. How does he know this? By his fruits? John MacArthur is a false prophet according to his own proof text in Matt 7:15-23. Aren’t we to shun them? Paul says nothing redeeming about their motives in 2 Cor 11:13-15. He says they are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
I know in myself, I’d like to think the men have good motives. Is holiness truly in his mind? I don’t know… I’d say by the fruits of “Triple Fist Kiss” and the Master Chorale and the “JMac Rap”, I don’t see it. He might consider listening to those, or I’d be happy to share the lyrics, and John MacArthur’s people idolization of him, to the point of swooning and fainting when he enters the room.
I pray he’ll turn and stop blaspheming the way of truth, but until then, his gospel is another, and the Judaizers were given no submission for even an hour, neither should we attribute good motives to false teaching should we? Isn’t that sort of like commending him? Attributing good motives to MacArthur I believe to be judging according to his appearance. So young ones go listen to his teachings figuring they already have the gospel down? Haven’t we made them stumble?
Just some of my thoughts on what the Word says about people who pervert the gospel. Please call a false prophet a false prophet and don’t soften the blow. In Christ.
For me personally as a believer in Christ person I got caught up in the Teachings of LS Calvinism and it was doctrine that became more Important than a Clear Simple Gospel message. Buying another book to read about what someone else says instead of reading studying scripture for myself and or sitting down and listening to someone’s lecture about the latest book they read who rarely quoted scripture. Then hammering away at souls trying to rope them into what I believed. No wonder Apostle Paul got so upset.
Jesus warns us
Mat 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Yes a picture of sin in this chapter But also in reference to the Teaching’s of the Pharisee’s . I have personally witnessed the teachings of LS Calvinism spread ripping apart family and friends .
The judgement seat of Christ for loss and reward not going to go well for me. I am happy now that I am not going there all twisted up in bad doctrine. I hope to finish well from this point forward .
Valid point — when in doubt about a person’s salvation — share with them the Gospel clearly.
Back in the 60s, I was involved in politics with a group of Christians, no one ever shared the Gospel with me. After I trusted Christ as my Savior, I asked, “Why?” The answer was — “We thought you were already a Christian.” Thankfully a lady, one of that group, was the one who took my wife and me to a Christmas Concert where I trusted Christ as my Savior. The lady was was shocked when I told her..
Absolutely, Give the Gospel!!!
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
I left a comment to Lou about that. We’ll see if he posts it and responds to my statement and question on it.
Yeah, I don’t know. Some men are slow to say anything about the salvation of others. I have read MacArthur’s testimony and I was unconvinced that he ever believed the gospel. My point with the link was the passage itself in I Thess and how FG and LS advocates claim both claim the other side is reading things into the text.
For me I’d give a person teach a false gospel the benefit of the doubt that they are not saved and give them the true gospel.
Jim, I read the link that you provided. The responses are kind of odd.
Lou writes: I often hear men suggest that John MacArthur, Lordship Salvation (LS) teachers, could not be saved men because he/they teach, what I also agree, is a false gospel. I tend to give benefit of the doubt and believe that these men have simply gone horribly wrong.
I think this is goofy! I agree with Lou that MacArthur and some of these others MIGHT BE saved. However, MacArthur’s implicit testimony is that he is trusting in faith plus works. His life’s work is to corrupt the gospel. Why would any discerning person “give benefit of the doubt” to MacArthur and other LS teachers? If Lou is correct, his website, and this one, are a waste of time.
There is also at lest one group of LSers claiming that a person must believe in the second coming of Christ in order to be saved. This was in response to Lou Martuneac’s recent post:
Usually the accusation is of reading our free grace meaning into the text.Of course we know that Calvinists and LSers are the ones that do this. There is also a big fight over the definition of terms.
Very true Jim F, another thing I see often, is accusations of the very thing they are guilty of. It’s as if the enemy gets a double reward, accuse the brethren, and mock the puppet he has blinded. God loves them both, and so the enemy rejoices for now, I pray we are able to show wisdom in the battle, and remember it for the battle it is.
Holly, the trick of the devil really is to call good evil and make evil appear to be good.
I was listening to a link by Tom Cucuzza a couple days ago on Daniel, included spiritual warfare, and Tom, (of all people, gentle, meek, patient, kind), they accused of hate speech and teaching people to hate.
They just don’t realize they are being loved or they are being guilted, or they are working, all the way straight to hell.
True love warns.
I think some just chalk it up to the idea that they are told to go in to all the world and preach the gospel. But talk about undermining the importance. And when they do preach the gospel it isn’t really the gospel anyway if they have added in works LS style. The other problem is that Calvinists tend to end up with a god lower case that is not the One described in the Bible. So even if they believed on that god without works they would still not be saved. Sad.
Another thing, if Calvinism is true, then why the need for missions/evangelism? That would be a total waste of time. I mean according to Calvinism, people are going to be saved anyway by God’s choosing via “irresistible grace”.
Kim, Praise God! Glad to hear that your eyes are opened to the Truth of Scripture and that you are no longer a part of Calvinism. When I was a new believer in my early 20’s, literally a babe in Christ, I was for a short period of time deceived by the false teachings of Calvinism/Lordship Salvation coming from MacArthur.
I lacked spiritual discernment and experience, but now I know better. I’ve learned a lot since visiting this website which has been a real blessing to me.
Holly, Calvinists put the cart before the horse by teaching that regeneration precedes faith. Like you said, “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word” – Romans 10:17. God’s Word teaches that we are saved synergistically,( human will and divine grace) whereas Calvinism falsely teaches that people are saved monergistically (without cooperation from the person).
I once heard MacArthur say years ago that when a person gets saved that God will “personally” confirm that with the person. The Bible says that eternal life is CONFIRMED at the moment of BELIEF – John 5:24, 6:47, Acts 16:30-31, Luke 23:42-43
William, it is truly a false gospel. Because if they just think on the reality, did Paul leave out part of the gospel when he declared the one they all believed, received, were saved by and stood in. Were all the other apostles who were preaching the same exact gospel he declared not bold enough to speak up and say, “Wait a minute Paul, where is the part about faith being the gift? About regeneration happening first? Don’t you think you should add that too?”
So truly, they have to “wait for it”….
Curtis, my sweet and funny ex-Calvinist friend, who has begun attending the Bible study I go to on Tues nights, was sitting next to me, as we were studying Galatians, but thumbing back through the story of Sarai/Sarah, Hagar, Abram/Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, and she leaned over when we were in Deuteronomy 18 and pointed to an underlined section in her Bible, and said, this was one of the first things that made me realize, Calvinism was not true. And she pointed to, Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Such a blessing…. She just started reading His Word and finding things…. she is in the process of unlearning some things, but she is doing so great…
Abe, a lot of things they see to miss the irony of, one is, how do they know they are saved? They really can’t. It would have to rely on a feeling, because nowhere in Scripture does it say that you can know you are saved their way. I saw an ex teacher of mine who has been relying heavily on the MacArthur Bible. The saddest thing to me was to see her tell an old man (via her blog) who had asked her about salvation, “to pray for faith”…
She believes faith is the gift spoken of in Eph 2:8-9, but at least she walked it out in honesty, she doesn’t tell him Faith comes BY hearing and hearing BY the Word. She doesn’t tell him the Scriptures are able to make him ‘wise unto salvation’. She doesn’t continue sharing the gospel. She tells him to pray for faith. I wanted to weep and weep.
So well-said Duane & Kim, and everyone!
Kim, that is such great news, I bet a burden has lifted. I see so many things with different Calvinists, some not understanding even what they profess, but if they were saved, and grow in understanding, the natural thing is for them to lose assurance in their salvation. I’m sure it probably happened to you. But the worst part is those they keep from coming to know the Lord as they hear all these other caveats added to the gospel of grace.
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Matt 23:4,13
One of their favorite tactics is if they cannot get you to agree, they attack grace itself, and use terms like cheap grace, greasy grace (hate that one) and other things I hate to repeat.
So glad you are here with us, thankful you did get out of that ‘dead end horror’. So terribly sad for those still in it.
Here is another Text of scripture would like to include with John 3:18
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
William, Holly, Abe,
Hi. I am one of the mostly silent readers at this wonderful oasis, and a former Calvinist, thanks also to this site. You all have nailed it so well in these past few comments. Basically the Calvinists are saying that the Good News is actually not quite as good as it would appear by how it reads – in fact not even close! And in doing so they are making God guilty of intentional, cruel, misleading doublespeak! Truly astonishing. I’m so glad to have my eyes opened to the Truth and to be out of that dead end horror.
Abe, Calvinists are in a fantasy dreamland world and have lost touch with reality. They are on another channel.
Holly, Many Calvinists don’t read the Bible with a good conscience because they keep reading “their” theology into the text. I’ve debated quite a few Calvinists up on YouTube just reeking with pride thinking that they’re saved and that they’re a part of an exclusively special elite club. They have shut the world out and made the free gift of salvation inaccessible to many by preaching their bogus gospel.
“I wonder how they don’t think this is all an illusion since they do not have any will to respond to God, nor any way to reject Him, maybe this is all a dream?”
They should think about this. They claim to be such intellectual deep thinkers. But somehow this one gets a pass by them.
William… I don’t know how they can actually read the Bible with a good conscience, knowing they do not believe it means ‘world’. Why don’t they clarify right then? Just say, “now just so you know, world, does not mean everyone. Actually it means, a few are chosen, so likely you are not one of them. You cannot really do anything to be saved, unless God regenerates you first, so you could pray for faith if you want to? But I cannot tell you it will help.
Here is how Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists read John 3:16-17: For God so loved the chosen few elect, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever was unconditionally elected before the foundations of the world and among the chosen elect few believeth, and persevereth to the end, shall not perish, but have everlasting life,
For God sent his son into the world TO condemn the world and in order that the elect chosen few might be saved through him” .
They respond with the answer that we ask foolish questions and they do it because the Bible tells them to (spread the gospel, and answer ‘error’). I wonder how they don’t think this is all an illusion since they do not have any will to respond to God, nor any way to reject Him, maybe this is all a dream?…
“I mean after all, according to Calvinism man is a predestined puppet”
That’s the point I’ve been using with them lately.
What if God predestined me to hate calvinism and say that it is rubbish? Aren’t they then wasting time arguing with someone predestined to say that?
They can’t seem to answer that.
Also, one wonders how God can hold man accountable for sin if man has no free will. I mean after all, according to Calvinism man is a predestined puppet. I’ve encountered many Calvinists on YouTube who insist that man has no free will, but I refute that by saying that all people have free will to decide what they’re going to have for dinner tonight, or is that predetermined by God as well?
Mark, they make a living explaining away the clarity in His Word, by speaking at conferences, crusades or revivals. Writing book after book after book, naming a Bible after themselves, perhaps a seminary or even a library. Even hosting their own ‘discernment sites’ which you can almost be guaranteed won’t mention another Calvinist, unless they can no longer be avoided as marking. (Such as a Mark Driscoll)
But in the end I do believe they wrest the Scriptures to their destruction.
Reblogged this on Redeemingmoments.
Johninnc, the entire Bible disproves Calvinism. Holly, give them time, Calvinists will always find a way to explain away the clear and unambiguous words of Scripture– their entire system is built upon doing just that.
Mark, lots of good passages, the reason they don’t know them and are unable to answer them, unfortunately (I believe) is because their favorite Calvinist teacher hasn’t yet explained away the plain meaning of His Word. They do not understand great plainness of speech…
Mark, thanks for these additional passages that prove that Calvinism is false doctrine.
Calvinist’s the world over tries to tell us that man has no free will, that God has predestined most people to hell, and that irresistible grace is true—well let’s see.
And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the LORD, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, BUT ye heard not; and I called you, BUT ye answered not. Jeremiah 7:13
Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them: YET they hearkened not unto me, NOR inclined their ear, BUT hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers. Jeremiah 7:25-26
For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice. YET they obeyed not, NOR inclined their ear, BUT walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do: BUT they did them not. Jeremiah 11:7-8
From the thirteenth year of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, even unto this day, that is the three and twentieth year, the word of the LORD hath come unto me, and I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; BUT ye have not hearkened. And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; BUT ye have not hearkened, NOR inclined your ear to hear. Jeremiah 25:3-4
To hearken to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I sent unto you, both rising up early, and sending them, BUT ye have not hearkened. Jeremiah 26:5
Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; BUT ye would not hear, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 29:19
And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, YET they have not hearkened to receive instruction. Jeremiah 32:33
The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, that he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are performed; for unto this day they drink none, but obey their father’s commandment: notwithstanding I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; BUT ye hearkened not unto me. I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: BUT ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me. Jeremiah 35:14-15
Howbeit I sent unto you all my servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, Oh, do not this abominable thing that I hate. BUT they hearkened not, NOR inclined their ear to turn from their wickedness, to burn no incense unto other gods. Jeremiah 44:4-5
These verses make no sense whatsoever, if bondage of the will, reprobation and irresistible grace are true. Calvinism IS Heresy!
Duane – true, they see that as some chosen for heaven or hell, and will not usually even address they idea of ‘corporate’. They do not understand the corporate grafting in of the Gentiles either, and they cannot seem to explain how Israel was the elect, but not all of Israel was saved obviously. Or how Judas was chosen but was the son of perdition. It’s understandable in light of the possibility they have not come to know Him at all…or, they have stayed in the milk or worse, only in their proof texts wrongly handled, I don’t know.
Jim Floyd… that is just one example, he is a ‘teacher’ with a website, and a following on FB of course. You know it is apparent when they don’t understand the gospel, and it’s becoming more and more like that out there, a real confusion, really reminds me of the tower of babel.
Jack, so true, I mentioned it to the friends who brought it to my attention, that they always leave out John 12:32 and even John 3:14-15. It’s why MacArthur had to change the story of Moses and the brazen serpent to people had to ‘drag themselves over’ to look.
What? That steps outside of his God drawing only some thinking, if someone is able to actually drag themselves over to look… They contradict themselves because their words are not truth.
God drew all men when Christ was lifted up on the cross… He calls us by His gospel. I thank God for His Word….and for pastors like you Jack.
“Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated.”
Paul was quoting Malachi 1:3 and, as Anthony Badger and others have explained (and as is evident from the context), this refers corporately and positionally to Israel (Jacob) and Edom (Esau); not to salvation of individuals, but to positions of service and commensurate authority.
Amazing how ignorant that man is — but he is typical of so many. All men are drawn to Christ.
Christ Himself speaking in John 12:32
Some will believe — many will not, including that “pastor.”
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Wow, it is mind boggling to see what ignorance can flow from wrongly used scripture. This guy didn’t understand Romans 9 at all.
It reminds me of when unsaved people try to explain the Word.
I’m sorry for such a long post, but his ramblings detail very well, the progression of error and Lordship logic.
He says, “God does not love EVERYBODY as is commonly supposed!
So we just ‘suppose’ that God says in His Word that He loved the world?
He didn’t die for sinners, just ‘some’ sinners? He didn’t lay down His life because of such great a love?
He doesn’t want ANY to perish, but that ALL should come to a change of mind. If we are told to love our enemies, could it be because God loves them and wants them to come to Him?
He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:2
FALSE TEACHINGS FOLLOW
The man posts a picture which says:
Men are saved because God ‘DRAWS’ them!
But He does not draw all men… Why? Because He does not love ALL!
Jacob have I loved…Esau have I hated! Rom 9:13
WHY GOD DOES NOT DRAW ALL MEN
“No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day”! [John 6:44]
The word ‘DRAW’ in the Greek literally means to DRAG! The same word is used when Peter after fishing DRAGGED the nets ashore and again when he ‘DREW’ his sword in the garden. [John 18:10; 21:6-11]
Hence from its usage in the New Testament we are therefore obliged to understand that fallen man if he is to ‘come to God’ at all, he MUST BE DRAWN OR DRAGGED BY THE POWER OF OMNIPOTENCE!
And yet the plain truth is – God does not so DRAG ALL MEN! Why is this so?! In other words why does He not save ALL?
(Don’t you love how they segue from one thing to another, to another? Reminds me of John MacArthur’s way of making his argument for the book Slave)
Mankind, just like the devils are a fallen race. This is something we need to understand before we understand anything else.
The first requirement to understand the plan of salvation is to understand the ENORMITY of the Fall and the consequences thereof. ‘Election’ or ‘Predestination’ always appears ‘unfair’ to many because they do not see the dreadful consequences of Adams’ transgression.
“IN ADAM ALL DIE” [1Cor 15:22]
“And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth”! [Gen 5:3] Not in the image and likeness of God, but in his fallen image and likeness! Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. How can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm”? [Job 25:4-6]
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned”![Rom 5:12]
Please read that very carefully, ‘Death passed on ALL men because ALL HAVE SINNED’!
The whole human race has already been judged and condemned in Adam. Unless people grasp this awful truth, they will never understand anything else that follows. The reason that babies are sometimes born deformed and some die in infancy is because they are guilty of the original sin?! If according to the delusion of many, they were born ‘righteous’ and are not sinners till the so called ‘age of accountability’ then they should not die in infancy as some do! Only the wages of sin is death, but death hath no power over the ‘sinless’!
It is out of THIS sinful, condemned race that God has chosen to have mercy on SOME and chosen not to have mercy on the REST.
The real question to be asked is not “why does God have mercy on only SOME”?, but “why does He have mercy on ANY”?!
Please bear in mind that God has provided redemption ONLY for man, but ALL the angels that sinned have been condemned to an eternal hell. God could have dealt in the same manner with fallen man as he did with the devils, but he has CHOSEN to save SOME men and women!
As to WHY God ‘CHOSE’ to set His love on these FEW and save them, only ONE answer is given in Scripture; and that is – “Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in Thy sight”! [Matt 11:26]
Why is it that ALL are not saved, particularly all who hear the Gospel? Do you still answer, Because the majority refuse to believe? Well, that is true, but it is only ONE part of the truth. It is the truth FROM THE HUMAN SIDE. But there is a DIVINE SIDE too, and this side of the truth needs to be stressed or God will be robbed of His glory.
The unsaved are lost because they refuse to believe; the others are saved because they believe. But WHY do these others believe? WHAT is it that causes them to put their trust in Christ? Is it because they are more intelligent than their fellows, and quicker to discern their NEED of salvation? Perish the thought—
“WHO MAKETH THEE TO DIFFER FROM ANOTHER? And what hast thou that thou didst not RECEIVE? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?” (1 Corinthians 4:7).
It is GOD HIMSELF WHO MAKETH THE DIFFERENCE between the elect and the non-elect, for of His own people it is written,
“And we know that the Son of God is come, AND HATH GIVEN US AN UNDERSTANDING, that we may know Him that is true” (1 John 5:20).
God does not love EVERYBODY as is commonly supposed!
Those whom He ‘loves’, He ‘DRAWS’!
“The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: THEREFORE with lovingkindness have I DRAWN thee”. [Jer 31:3]
WHY did He ‘draw’ the ones whom He did? He ‘DREW’ them because HE LOVED THEM with an everlasting love!
And He does not ‘DRAW’ all men, because He does not ‘LOVE’ ALL MEN!
END FALSE TEACHING.
Thanks — great to hear from you again!
Powerful words “Ye WOULD NOT”!! A choice, a decision to accept or refuse Jesus’ offer.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
I hope it’s o.k. to post this man’s false teachings, I’ll preface it, or delete it if you prefer not. I just found his ‘arguments’ and ‘conclusions’ interesting in that we see the way these men work.
Exactly right, simple, to the point John. I have a comment I will share in a minute from a rabid Calvinist, but I always think on this passage (as well as the one that Max Taylor shared), these people not only resisted God, but they persecuted the prophets God sent to speak His Word, killed them, betrayed and murdered Jesus, and the law they didn’t keep… Each and every word speaks of RESISTING God. Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit when he spoke this and we know that God’s Word is truth, so we CAN resist God.
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. Acts 7:51-53
Max, yet another great verse to disprove Calvinism!
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! ” These words were spoken by our Savior. Notice he did not say, “I wanted to gather you, but it was foreordained and predetermined by God that He would not let you make a decision.” God allows mankind to rebel and sin and reject Him. In His Grace, He allows us to accept Jesus Christ as the payment for our sins.
Good thoughts John,
“Non-believers are condemned BECAUSE they are non-believers.”
This is the point that people really need to understand. God does not predetermine who will believe and who won’t.
Excellent as usual, Biblically accurate, logical and this article is simplicity at its best.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:3
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
This is a great verse. It also helps to explain why the doctrine of irresistible grace is unfounded. Calvinists reason that the blood of Christ cannot be ineffective at rescuing the elect, and they mistakenly connect this with the idea that if Christ paid for the sins of the lost and they are somehow still condemned, then God is demanding a “double payment.” for sin. Thus, they falsely reason that rejecting limited atonement must lead to universalism.
The problem is, the Scriptures teach us that unbelievers are not condemned for their SINS under the Law, for which Christ died, but are condemned instead for rejecting Christ – that is, for UNBELIEF. We see the idea reiterated in Hebrews 3:19, where we find that the real reason the generation that left Egypt did not enter the promised land was because of unbelief – foreshadowing the cost of unbelief in Christ.