Lordship Salvation: Wile, Style, and Guile

By: johninnc

Revelation 14:5: And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

All Christians in the church age will by taken in the rapture, which the Bible teaches will occur before the Great Tribulation.

But, there are many people in professing Christendom (aka “churchianity”) who will be left behind by the rapture, because they have believed false gospels and have never believed in Christ alone as Savior.

Among the false gospels that keep lost people lost are the various forms of works salvation prevalent in religions that claim the name of Christ. One of the more insidious of these is Lordship “salvation.”

Lordship “salvation, “ or bilateral contract “salvation” is a perversion that adds works to the front end, or back end of the gospel. It has been taught by some of the most well known “evangelists” and theologians in recorded history, and is almost ubiquitous today among those claiming to preach the gospel. As Jack Weaver, the late founder of the ExPreacherman ministry used to say: “The woods is full of ‘em.”

Some of the more prominent people who taught, or teach false gospels, or who undermine their own stated beliefs in grace, have been highlighted, or mentioned in previous articles here. They include:

  • John Calvin
  • Ray Comfort
  • Joseph Dillow
  • Andrew Farley
  • Billy and Franklin Graham
  • J.D. Greear
  • John MacArthur
  • John Piper
  • Charles Stanley
  • Charles Spurgeon
  • Paul Washer
  • George Zeller
  • Roy Zuck

The devices used by false teachers vary, but include:

Wile – devious, cunning strategies, such as changing the meanings of words like “faith” and “grace” to include works.

Style – emotional appeals, social contagion, ceremony, works-oriented testimonials, and stupid analogies that pervert the gospel message.

Guile – subtle deception, such as conflating eternal salvation and discipleship, proof texting Bible verses out of context, or changing the timing of required works from the front end of the salvation equation to the back end of the salvation equation.

In his excellent sermon entitled “The Most Fervent Evangelists Who Ever Lived,” pastor Tom Cucuzza discusses the 144,000 tribulation age messengers who will become believers after the rapture, and will preach the gospel to those left behind by the rapture.

Revelation 7 describes who the 144,000 messengers are, and Revelation 14 describes some of their attributes, including the purity of the message that they will preach. In contrast to the wile, style, and guile used by false teachers, the 144,000 messengers will have no guile in their mouths.

Since the gospel is the only saving message, it is clear that the 144,000 will preach the gospel, without any of the perversions that are pervasive among the so-called evangelists in the present age.

Tom’s message emphasizes the following points:

  • Salvation has never, nor will it ever, involve works. This includes people saved before Christ, those who are saved in the church age, and those who will become saved during the Great Tribulation.
  • The Great Tribulation will have a one-world religion that Tom calls “mystical religious humanism.” All religion today is moving in that direction. It will be accommodating by nature. There will be a common thread.
  • The problem with being accommodating, or ecumenical, is the failure to understand the significance of those things we disagree on.

Following is a quote from Tom’s sermon that underscores the primary thing we cannot accommodate – attacks on the gospel message:

Yes we believe people should live good lives. Yes we believe people should be kind to others, and all these kind of things. Surely be concerned about others, treat people in the right way. Yes, we can all agree on that.

But, you know what? When you say “those things are part of what it means to getting to heaven,” or if you say “every true believer will live a life of dedication towards that, “ I say to you: “Wait a minute! You have just violated the only way to salvation. Because it’s only through the blood of Christ that you’re saved. “

And when we come along and we say “if you add ANYTHING to what Jesus Christ did on the cross, you are preaching a false gospel that cannot save.” ANYTHING except faith in Christ.

People say “you’re crazy” or they’ll say “you think you’re the only ones who have the truth.” Listen folks, the truth is to be had by anyone. We don’t have a corner on the market. But, we do know this. We believe what Jesus said. He said: “I am the way, the truth and the life, and no man comes to the Father, but by Me.”

He didn’t say “Me and you!” He didn’t say “Me and your good intentions.”

Now, should Christians live good, Godly lives? Yes. Absolutely. But, does that have anything to do with us getting into heaven? Absolutely not!.

Please click here if you would like to hear Tom’s sermon in its entirety:

Tom’s Sermon

Now, one may rightly ask: “What do the tribulation age witnesses have to do with me?

There are two answers:

First, if you know how to have eternal life, and how to escape the coming Great Tribulation, it is incumbent upon you to tell others. Some may believe now and die before the rapture, thus receiving eternal life and avoiding an eternity in hell. Others may believe now, receive eternal life,  and avoid the horrors of the coming Great Tribulation. And, still others may hear now, and not believe until after the rapture, and become tribulation age saints.

Second, the gospel message is the same now as it will be after the rapture. The only way that anyone can get to heaven is to rely totally on Christ’s provision for our salvation.

If you have never believed in Jesus as your Savior, today is the best time to do that. We are not promised tomorrow. Please click here for more information:

THE GOSPEL

145 responses to “Lordship Salvation: Wile, Style, and Guile

  1. Thank you for this article John. We do need to be aware of their wiles. One thing I have noticed regarding the ‘guile’ is that there is no doubt they are full of it. I have met very few who are reformed who are straightforward and willing to have a calm and open discussion with His Word. Style… well, they have a lot of money. They are leading the pack in growth and popularity and church attendance. Writing books and hosting all the discernment sites and blogs. Thanking the Lord for Jack’s decision to start this blog and for your faithfulness to stick with it. In Christ, Holly

  2. Thanks for article John and all those who post here. Not only does false keep lost souls lost , weak to false Gospel’s are lethal to a believer soul. they stunt growth and have souls striving and struggling for God’s approval when they already have a 100% perfect position in Christ Jesus .
    Growth comes from our position in Christ Jesus . God is not in the remodeling business God starts over brand new

  3. Curtis, agree completely.

    Ephesians 1:3-6.

  4. Holly, we have a local mega church that is more like a personality cult, based on the pastor.

    Lots of style. But, our friend asked her neighbor, who leads a “small group” at the megachurch how she could know she had eternal life. The response was very confused, and not indicative of someone who was hearing the gospel preached clearly and faithfully.

  5. I recently did some research and reading and here is what I found regarding Calvinism’s false teaching of the “gift of faith”.

    Calvinism’s false teaching of the “gift of faith” does not come from the Bible, but from the following sources based upon an eisegesis of Ephesians 2:8-9 taken out of context.

    1) Augustine – City of God, “On the predestination of the saints and on the gift of perseverance”, Book 1, Chapter 12. Augustine states, “And he says that a man is justified by faith and not by works, because FAITH itself is first given, from which may be obtained other things which are specially characterized as works, in which a man may live righteously. For he himself also says, “By grace ye are saved through faith; and this not of yourselves; but it is the gift of God,” — that is to say, “And in saying “through faith”, even FAITH itself is not of yourselves, but is God’s gift.”

    2) Augustine – City of God, “On the predestination of the saints and on the gift of perseverance”, Book 1, Chapter 16. Augustine states, “Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is GOD’S GIFT; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to SOME, while to some it is not given.”

    3) The Counter-Remonstrance, Section 3. “That God in his election has not looked to the faith or conversion of his elect, nor to the right use of his gifts, as the grounds of election; but that on the contrary He in his eternal and immutable counsel has purposed and DECREED TO BESTOW FAITH and perseverance in godliness and thus to save those whom He according to his good pleasure has chosen to salvation.”

    4) The Canons of Dort, I. Of Divine Predestination, section 6, “That some receive the GIFT OF FAITH from God, and others do not receive it proceeds from God’s eternal decree, “For known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world,” Acts 15:18.”Who worketh all things after the counsel of His will,” Eph.1:11.”

    5) The Canons of Dort, III.,IV. Of the corruption of man, his conversion to God, and the manner thereof, Section 14, “Faith is therefore to be considered as the GIFT OF GOD, not on account of its being offered by God to man, to be accepted or rejected at his pleasure; but because it is in reality conferred, breathed, and infused into him; or even because God bestows the power or ability to believe, and then expects that man should by the exercise of his own free will, consent to the terms of salvation, and actuallly believe in Christ; but because he who in man both to will and to do, and indeed all things in all, produces both the will to believe, and the act of believing also.

    6) The Westminster Confession of Faith, XI, Of Justification, Section 1, “Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ’s sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness, by faith; WHICH FAITH THEY HAVE NOT OF THEMSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD.

    7) The Five Points of Calvinism by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas, page 7, “The GIFT OF FAITH is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.”

    8) John Calvin in his, “the institutes of the Christian religion”, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9. Calvin states, “….although the voice of the gospel addresses all in general, yet the GIFT OF FAITH is rare.”

    UTTER HERESY!

  6. William, yes, teaching that faith is a gift, or that God overrules man’s will in whether or not one believes in Jesus as Savior, are heresies that go way back.

    Those heresies are prevalent throughout much of churchianity today.

  7. KJV Womens Bible Studies

    thank you for this post, I was under this false gospel “lordship salvation”for a while until you and a couple other preachers help me find the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Lordship salvation is dangerous because its very sneaky in most cases. it put works in with salvation and distorts repentance. Thanks for the download of the booklet The Gospel, I have found the true Gospel and it feels so assuring. Thank you again.

  8. KJV, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    We are grateful that you are no longer under the false gospel of Lorship “salvation.”

    I have prayed that you will grow in grace, and that you will remember to put on the full armor of God.

  9. You may have done this in the past and I missed it; do you have a list of some more well known preachers, writers, etc that hold to the grace alone position. The late Jack Kinsella seemed to be a grace alone advocate.

  10. KJV Welcome , Thank you for posting , your comments remind me of
    enjoy our salvation in Christ Jesus . How ? by mental occupation with the bible and the Holy Spirit will take care of all the rest .

    the truth of the gospel;
    the grace of God in truth:
    Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
    Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
    Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

  11. Joel, we don’t have a list of grace alone teachers, but we often quote from a few, such as pastor Tom Cucuzza, with whom we are comfortable.

  12. Jack Kinsella spent a vast majority of his career with his friend and mentor Hal Lindsey. .Hal Lindsey, author of The Late Great Planet Earth.

    Welcome Joel as John Suggested Tom Cucuzza is a solid Truth of Grace preacher/Teacher , sadly there are few preaching a clear gospel. I didn’t know of Jack Kinsella until you mentioned him here. but have heard of Hal Lindsey his mentor I would recommended turning away from .

    aski for wisdom and understanding from God in this matter studying the word of God for the Truth of The Gospel. allowing yourself time
    rejoicing in knowing you are saved as outlined here at Exprecheman

  13. The Woman In Christ

    Thank you for your prayers. You are in my prayers also, that your blog may bless as many as possible and lead people to Christ through the True Gospel. God Bless you!

  14. John, great article as always.

    When it comes right down to it, those who embrace LS, Calvinism, Arminianism and other false gospels insist on using their senses to validate their standing before God (verify whether they have eternal life). The works salvationist perceives his own good works, turning from sin, faithfulness, perseverance, etc. through the senses by examining his life and comparing it to what he sees in the lives of others, and concludes that he must be in right standing with God. The mystic perceives his experiences, impressions, love of the law, etc. through the senses and likewise concludes that he is right with God. These groups of people simply refuse to believe the simple truth that eternal life can only be received by taking God at His word that whoever believes that Christ paid his penalty for sin in full has everlasting life at that very moment according to God’s promise (John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47), and that confirmation of whether he has received it through the senses is neither necessary nor possible.

    Those who rely on their senses in any way to validate or assure themselves of their standing before God are attempting to do what the law requires since they are walking by sight and the law is contrary to faith (Gal. 3:12), and are under the law and walking after the flesh (Galatians 5:16-18). If an unbeliever does this, he himself remains under the curse of the law (Gal. 3:13) and under condemnation (John 3:18). If a believer receives eternal life by believing the Gospel, he himself is forever redeemed from the curse of the law (Gal. 3:13). If the believer subsequently fails to abide by falling back under the curse of the law (falling from grace, Gal. 5:4), he himself remains eternally secure (saved from Hell and the lake of fire), but loses fellowship with God (experiences “death” within the meaning of Romans 8:13 and 2 Cor. 3:6, where the “letter” refers to attempts to validate one’s standing before God according to the law). Consequently, he is separated from God’s life-giving spiritual power that would otherwise enable him to be productive and fruitful in God’s estimation (John 15:4, 5). As long as he remains in this state of unbelief, he “soweth to his flesh” and of the flesh will “reap corruption” (Gal. 6:8). His works are under the curse of the law and, at the Judgment Seat of Christ, will be “wood, hay and stubble” which will be burned (John 15:6; Hebrews 6:8), although he himself will be saved (John 15:3; 1 Cor. 3:15).

    In verse 19, I think that Jude must have had in mind the false teachers who taught that some form of law keeping or spiritual experience (verification through the senses) was required in order to know whether one possessed eternal life. There, these false teachers are described as “sensual, having not the Spirit”. The Holy Spirit assures those who have understood and believed the Gospel that they have eternal life in the present (Romans 8:16; 1 John 2:27, 3:24, 4:4, 4:13, 5:10). Those believers who continue in this Spirit-given assurance and seek to serve the Lord will enjoy or experience and reap the fruits of the eternal life which they already possess (“the spirit giveth life”, 2 Cor. 3:6). Consequently, they will produce “gold, silver and precious stones” which will remain after they are tried by fire at the Judgement Seat (1 Cor. 3:12, 14), and will receive a reward.

    On the other hand, “assurance” which is not wrought by the Spirit but is instead verified through the senses characterizes those who are walking after the flesh and under the curse of the law. Thus, Jude exhorts believers to “earnestly contend for the faith” (v.3) and save some believers in their fellowship “with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (v. 23) so that they would not fall prey to those false teachers and that their works would not be burned at the Judgement Seat.

  15. Keith, I agree that anyone who has ever believed in Jesus as Savior has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited – even if he falls from grace.

    And, when a person seeks assurance of eternal life from any source other than the promise of God’s word – including his senses, or feelings – he will not find it.

  16. Keith, as always, I really found your comment to be thoughtful and thorough.

    In particular, that to the extent Christians attempt to rely on their senses, or feelings, for assurance, they will suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

  17. “Keith, as always, I really found your comment to be thoughtful and thorough.”
    Amen

  18. Joel – I spoke to Jack Kinsella personally a couple of times. The problem with a lot of the prophecy sites is the tremendous amount of compromise and ecumenism in order to get an audience for their writings. I spoke to him about his appearances with Jonathan Bernis and the affiliations with the Kingdom Now people and their ‘gospel’. They don’t seem to see the problem with the company they keep. 2 John 1:7-11, Romans 16:17-18, Gal 2:4-5, Gal 1:6-10, etc., tell us differently. I was introduced to him via a Bible study teacher years ago, and he seemed to be grace alone, however, once I saw his compromises, it was a mark and avoid for me, as much of a nice man that he seemed to be.

  19. Keith, I took time to read your comment to, and appreciated the time you took to put into it. In Christ, Holly

  20. Just a thought about Jude, which includes both believers and non-believers (those who believe not, the ungodly, those who don’t have the Spirit, those who creep in unaware – which I believe speaks to false brethren like we see in Gal 2:4-5). It also speaks of false prophets and demons. Since we see believers and non-believers contrasted, it seems to me the fire speaks also to hell as well as the burning up of hay and stubble at the judgment seat of Christ for those led astray. Fire is judgment, so I ‘think’ it can apply to both believers and non believers there.

  21. John, Curtis and Holly, thanks for your kind remarks.

    Holly, I agree that the fire in Jude is a warning to both believers and unbelievers. For those who have never believed the Gospel and follow the teachings of the false teachers, the danger is hellfire. Those who have believed the Gospel and fall into the error of the false teachers are no longer in danger of the fire of God’s wrath, but their works will be burned up at the Judgment Seat if they don’t repent (change their minds about the law and return their confidence to the sufficiency of the atonement and Christ’s promise of eternal life).

  22. Keith, I think it is super important for people to understand that a desire for a changed life is not a requirement for receiving eternal life. Further, that one need not examine himself or others for signs of a changed life to confirm, or even to provide corroborative evidence of eternal life. Accordingly, I think that using a changed life as part of a conversion testimony is misleading.

    The Holy Spirit, through God’s Word, testifies to us that if we have believed the gospel we have eternal life (John 5:24).

  23. Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

    Please pray for my son. He’s been having suicidal thoughts and is currently going through a divorce. We’re worried about him. Also, please pray for a lady who is demon possessed. Her husband and her mother in law are both involved in a pagan religion (not sure what the religion is). I don’t know them personally, but a friend of the woman who is demon possessed is asking for prayer. Please pray that the woman who is demon possessed believe in the gospel and be freed from this demonic possession. Thank you.

  24. William, I have prayed for your son and daughter in law, in particular that God would heal their marriage and that your son would turn from his auicidal thoughts and focus on Jesus.

    I have also prayed for the girl that you mentioned, as well as her parents.

  25. John, Thank you. Our son’s marriage is not going to be healed. Our so called “daugher in law” is a blatant LIAR and a con-artist. Please pray that the divorce will go smoothly.

  26. John, I agree completely. If I implied that a changed life or a desire for a changed life is a requirement for receiving eternal life in anything I’ve written, it certainly wasn’t intentional.

    William, I praying for your son and daughter-in-law and for the demon possessed lady whom you mentioned.

  27. Keith, not at all.

    I wanted to add the point about testimonies, because so many focus on how God has changed their lives.

    And, reiterate that the Biblical assurance of eternal life for believers should rest soley on God’s promise that whoever has believed in Jesus as Savior has (present tense) eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.

  28. I appreciate all the comments here about grace, law, salvation, faith, etc.

    William, I’ve prayed for your son and the people you mentioned.

    I’ve posted in another thread about an online controversy I’ve been having with a staunch Roman Catholic. As an ex-Catholic myself (departed RC-ism in 1975) that was a eye-opener, seeing how deeply the person was deceived. Ironically, this Friday I’ll be attending the funeral of my brother-in-law who died a couple of weeks ago. He was a devout Catholic, as is his wife (my sister). This will be difficult, since the funeral is a Mass, and I have very mixed thoughts about attending. I don’t want to add to my sister’s grief by not showing up (she could very well take it personally), but neither do I want to offer any false comfort. Though she knows where I stand, my sister has been closed to any discussion with me about RC-ism vs. the Bible for years, me being the “dumb little brother” of the family.

    I’m sure the eulogy and conversation will be full of stories about how my B-in-L is certainly heaven-bound (probably after a short stint in Purgatory) because he was such a good person, good Catholic, did so much good, and on and on. Well he was a very good person, but as we all know, our righteousness is as filthy rags. I don’t know precisely what he was trusting in for his salvation: his faithfulness in keeping RC requirements or the blood of Christ.

    I’m in huge need of wisdom on this. My biggest concern is that the Gospel be known among my still-Catholic family members. Prayers are appreciated.

  29. Chas, I have prayed for you as you go through this situation, particularly that you will be gentle and wise and have an opportunity to share the gospel.

    Without reference to your deceased brother-in-law, you may affirm that anyone who trusts in Christ alone as Savior has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited. This could give rise to questions about eternal security, which could lead to opportunities to share the gospel.

    In any case, I think it would be a kind gesture to be there on behalf of your sister.

  30. John, you’ve clarified the central issue nicely. I had been going back-and-forth on the issue of attendance, moving more toward the view you’ve stated. I think you nailed it. I had pretty much decided to go (it’s this Friday), but confirmation from another Christian always helps. “An abundance of counselors”… etc.

    Many thanks.

  31. Chas
    I would go but not participate in ceremony.
    we don’t know if a soul has trusted Christ Jesus as their personal saviour. for the new birth can not be seen it is super natural. There are souls who trust Christ Jesus as their personal saviour and get mixed up and confused or fall under the bewitching spell of another gospel..
    that being said.. you dont know me other than post here at expreacherman.com but you sure can make much boast of the Lord Jesus whom i have trusted in that paid my sin debt.
    even if i never posted here you wouldn’t know me. but yet you can make much boast of The Lord Jesus who paid our sin debt.
    Just rest and allow the Holy Spirit to set up a wittnessing opertunity. Just relax and faith rest enjoying The Lord Jesus in salvation knowing you are saved. that eternal life is a free gift.. we spill what we are filled with.

    Curtis

  32. Another name for your heretic list > Michael Chriswell, although I hate to give him any recognition. A friend sent me a link to his blog which was a message on divorce. Never heard of him but after listening to his ‘sermon’ or speech he states that if a married person remains married to an unbeliever they can lose their salvation. So looked up his website & here’s what he says about salvation: “The person who professes faith in Christ but does not put His words into practice will be found to have false faith at the Judgment seat of Christ.”
    I am SO ANGRY at this man who is preaching to those who are suffering in tormented marriages and piles on their misery by telling them they will lose their salvation. This heretic needs to have his breeches run up the town square flagpole . . . with him in them!

  33. Joy, wow! What an accursed message and messenger!

    Thanks for the warning.

  34. Thanks Joy.
    I went to his blog to browse—jaw droppingly bad. I hesitate to quote him but …for demonstration purposes only here goes:

    “Note: You are not saved by your obedience. You are saved by faith just as if you were the thief on the cross and there were no time left to obey or do any good works. However, if you are not one who dies immediately after coming to faith in Christ, your faith is only proven to be true saving faith if you are obeying the words of Christ. “

    “The Bible says God restricts the length of man’s life on earth to a max of 120 years (Gen 6:3).”

    “After we die, we will face God’s righteous judgment (Heb 9:27) for how we lived in the body (Rev 20:12). This judgment determines if we will spend eternity in heaven (a glorious paradise made by God for the supreme happiness of Himself and His children), or hell.”

    “Unless something changes, that means the majority of people that think they are “saved” are going to be in for a complete shock at the Judgment Seat of Christ.”

    Not good news at all: Truly sad indeed.

  35. Chas, Thank you. I’m praying for your family members that one day they will come out of the false doctrine of Roman Catholicism. Decades ago my father claimed to be a Catholic and even claimed to have seen a vision of “Jesus” holding a little baby girl and telling my father that the little baby girl was his “imminent wife to be” in the future, but we all know that the “Jesus” and “God” of Roman Catholicism is not the same Jesus and God of the Bible.

  36. One of the latest (not newest…nothing new under the sun) tactics is to cast doubt on the certainty of anything, including what words mean. I don’t mean redefinition; I mean multi-definitions and boastful pride in not being 100% sure of anything including the promises of God—postmodernism has crept in through the seminaries to the pulpits to the pews. The Gospel (scripture) believed objectively brings assurance, subjectivity will bring doubt.

    Sheep, we believers are sheep. And doubt sounds so sure sometimes and surety sounds like it should be doubted.

    Praying for you and yours William, praying for all sheep.

  37. Does anyone know how Shirley Weaver and her family are doing?

  38. William, I was just wondering that the other night. I know she had moved to be close to one of her children.

  39. John, We should all pray for her and her family. I still remember Jack and he was a blessing to many.

  40. William, agree.

    Thanks for the reminder. I am grateful for the life of Jack Weaver, and the opportunity to know him.

  41. Yes Chas, I would certainly go to the funeral, but not participate in the ceremony, being an ex-roman catholic myself. I just sit there and grieve for them and pray for the lord to open their eyes, the priest on the weekend was cracking jokes at the catholic wedding I attended, the people just love this young Mexican priest, because he is a lovely warm and
    friendly person. I’m sure he is a nice man just deceived.

    But what does he believe I say, he can’t show his congregation the way to salvation as he is blind himself. So sad and so grievious. I notice when I go to these catholic services be it funerals or weddings, they do watch me that I dont do the sign of the cross or kneel up and down, when its Eucharist time, so that may get their attention, that not everyone is catholic out there.

    I have been asked by some staunch catholic friends of mine, why I am not
    Catttorlic anymore in their italian accent. I told them because I read the bible and its contrary to what the Roman Catholics teach.. They don’t know what to do with it, but its gods job to save them, thankfully its not mine.

    Just got back from Italy and Spain, soooooo catholic, they have just beatified in September, 2 Roman Catholic dead priests, its seems they beatify anything that moves in Europe. The Jehovah Witnesses dominate all the streets in Europe, they have a new tactic of standing on the streets all day long with billboards.. People are no longer opening the doors so they have had to come up with a new tactic…

    Chas I am so sorry to hear of your loss, and for we that are Christians the loss is greater as Catholics have no salvation and are probably not in a good place, the priest will tell you they are in Paradise. Yet we know that its an anatheama to say that you can know you have eternal life. So how can they say they are in heaven, when god has to weigh up their good works.

    Hopefully your brother in law had salvation, but its in gods hands now. Take courage and I pray through this death that god will give you an opportunity to witness to someone there.

    God Bless.

  42. Many thanks for you encouragement, Mary.

    It’s been a tough decision. I never had any doubts about avoiding the Eucharist–“taking communion”–as they say. But, to a certain extent, in the RCC view mere Mass attendance is a level of participation. I’ll just have to leave that with the Lord.

    I intend to occupy a pew that will make it easy for me to “step outside” when the Eucharist is being served, then wait outside for the service to end. Dunno if I’ll be able to get a good spot for that. We’ll see.

  43. William
    praying for your son , I have been through that The answer is Jesus , Thinking towards Him Jesus was tempted in all points.
    It is in our thinking these things take root
    No one wins in a divorce

  44. Chas, can you speak at the funeral? If so, do it! Give the gospel. I have done it at a couple funerals that were secular funerals. I didn’t tell them what I was going to do but it’s an opportunity. Or it may already be past, either way, being there is an opportunity to witness without participating.

  45. Holly…
    No, there was no opportunity for me to speak. Like any Catholic Mass, this was a tightly-scripted event. The only non-cleric delivering a message was my nephew (the deceased’s son), who spoke about what a wonderful person his Dad was. Can’t blame him for that, his Dad was a very good person, and from an RCC standpoint a good Catholic. Such was the whole thrust of the service, in fact. Great mention was made of his “faith”, how his faith inspired him to do this or that, how his faith sustained him at the end, etc. No mention was made of what “his faith” entailed, what was its object. Some mention was made of the Lord’s death and resurrection, but a clear connection of those to any “faith” involved wasn’t made. I suppose it’s assumed. That’s consistent with my experience as a Catholic; the cross and resurrection are spoken of, but “faith” is not directly connected to them. Instead the “church”– that is, the Mother Church (Rome)–is always up front and in the way. Any personal reliance on the shed blood of Christ as the sole basis for receiving eternal life is avoided.

    Strangely, there was no mention in the sermon about Purgatory. On the one hand, it seemed to be assumed that the deceased would be with the Lord, but there would be some form of discomfort involved at first. The sermon likened death and supposedly appearing in the Lord’s presence to natural childbirth; how a baby is uncomfortable being out of his/her mother’s womb until the baby gets used to not being wrapped up tight. It was a clever but unbiblical comparison which would appeal to the natural mind, I’m sure.

    On the other hand, that’s not to say Purgatory was left out of the proceedings entirely. After the sermon (which seemed to imply that My B-in-L was already in Heaven), the Eucharist and my nephew’s eulogy, there was a prayer for “departed souls” in–you guessed it–Purgatory. It’s amazing to me how the whole service seemed to try to be “non-Catholic”–even with an Evangelical flavor–while remaining thoroughly Catholic. There was a “Rome/Lite” feel to the whole thing. It was a further eye-opener to how subtle and subversive RCC ecumenism has become.

    One interesting thing: due to certain circumstances we were about 15 minutes late getting to the service. That made it necessary for us (me, my wife and her mother) to sit at the back of the church, which made it easy for me to “step outside” when the Eucharistic part of the service began. Had we gotten there on time, we’d have been corralled in the “reserved for family” pews up front. My wife is certain that our late arrival was the Lord’s doing. Maybe she’s right.

    Afterward there was a get-together at my sister’s house; what amounted to a wake, I suppose. My sister was busy with food and drink, avoiding any prolonged conversation with me. I didn’t push it. The only times she would talk about anything remotely “spiritual” with the others was when I was out of the room. As I’ve already said, she knows something of my stand regarding the Bible and RC-ism. The problem is she thinks I know only “grade school” Catholicism, as if I’ve learned nothing about it since, and as if there were any real difference doctrinally between what a grade school catechism teaches compared to an adult catechism. The wall is high and thick, I’m afraid.

  46. One difference between Catholic view and teaching of the dead and evangelicals is that Catholics believe in prayer for dead, ie, “prayers for the poor souls in purgatory.” Whereas, evangelicals pray for the family of the deceased, not for God to take departed to heaven. I would take it that usually means that it is assumed that the dead persons fate has already been decided when he was still alive. I would assume that most Protestants, like Catholics, as in some sort of theological haze about whether they are going to heaven after they die.

    Being an ex catholic, this was my understanding.

  47. Phil, I think a lot of religions have prayers for the dead, including many who go by the name of Christian.

    I know someone at work, who is a member of the Bahá’í Faith, who said she would pray for my dad after he had died.

  48. Yes when I lost a member of my family a few years ago, another member of my family being Roman Catholic told me that he had prayed at least a 1000 prayers for my deceased family member. Well intentioned, and when I was leaving the cemetery, they had said my mother and sister are buried here, they will look after them.

    It all boils down to what is your belief, when coping with a loved one. So sad to see people so ignorant of the scriptures.

  49. Chas, I think I agree with your wife, I’ve been there in Catholic funerals. Pray for other laborers to enter the harvest with your sister. Often they seem to strongly resist family or close friends. I will pray now for your sister. Our prayers matter.

  50. I watch old Bishop Sheen shows with my Catholic neighbor sometimes. I always call/text before I head out and say “Two things: Coffee and Sheen, STAT!”

    Sheen, of course, completely avoided CCC doctrine on his show (other than the “JMJ” insignia he wrote at the top of his chalkboard), but rather spoke on issues everyone could relate to. He seemed so level-headed that I often wondered “Surely he doesn’t believe all that invented stuff?!?” But I think he did.

    My neighbor and I have been friends for 17 years, helping each other out along the way. I have EXPLICITLY presented FREE GIFT! FREE GIFT! SECURITY! GRACE! to him.

    HIGHLY resistant. He is now dealing with some type of Parkinson’s and I hope God opens his mind and heart to the Good News! I intend to continue our occasional visits and holding out the free gift of God in Christ ALONE!

  51. John John, I have prayed for your friend.

  52. Thank you, John. Thanks for keeping this site going. I really enjoy reading the comments.

  53. I would like prayer for my friends nephew who was in a car accident today. He has head trauma and is not expected to survive short of divine intervention.

  54. Brian, I have prayed for your friend’s nephew and his family.

  55. Praying with understanding for you friend’s nephew, love in Him.

  56. Thank you so much for praying. His name is Zach. The next few days are important with brain swelling concerns. He has less brain swelling than expected for his injuries.

  57. Brian, thanks for the update. Still praying!

  58. I have a question about what is biblical, in Australia, they have a church who has left its denomination, I don’t know who they are but will ring them soon. Who have accepted gays and lesbians in their church. They are called Activate, non-denominational.

    I know the lordship salvationists hinder the gays from coming to christ as they have to turn from their sin, am I right in saying that gays are welcome in the church if they are seeking god, and not welcome if they have no
    desire to come to the lord Jesus and have no desire to give up their lifestyle.

    Isn’t it all about giving them the gospel. About getting them born again first then, letting the holy spirit deal with their lifestyle..

  59. Mary, I think you are right that it is about giving them the gospel if they are not believers. And, if they become believers, teaching the truth from God’s word and allowing the holy spirit deal with their lifestyle.

    There are a couple of comments from the past that address this issue. See below:

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/04/28/sorry-lordship-salvationists-and-charles-ryrie-the-terms-of-eternal-life-are-neither-debatable-nor-negotiable/#comment-56403

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/04/28/sorry-lordship-salvationists-and-charles-ryrie-the-terms-of-eternal-life-are-neither-debatable-nor-negotiable/#comment-56404

    Like I said at the end of my linked comment, I would prefer that we not use ExPreacherMan as a forum for church discipline issues.

  60. Brian JH,

    I will continue to pray for him. Thanks for the update.

    Jim F

  61. I just found this website about an hour ago and I am so thankful I did. I have been taking deep, peaceful breaths as I become more and more relieved to know I have been under “Lordship Salvation” preaching and that I was right! It is totally false. Four years ago my family and I began attending a church that was started at the Creation Museum by one of John MacArthur’s leading men, D** Gr**n. D** Gr**n was a pastor at John MacArthur’s church and he was the head “Grace to You” ministries. Ken Ham attended for a few months, but strangely disappeared after it became obvious D*n Gr**n was preaching the Calvinist doctrine. Ken Ham continued to allow us to use his facility until we found a permanent site. We did. And once we did, the gloves came off. D*n Gr**n never says the words “Calvinism” or “Reformed Theology” or “Lordship Salvation.” He has been stealth and slow. Now, the yelling and condemnation from the pulpit is downright abusive. Many good people left including almost all the Creation Museum and Answers in Genesis employees and volunteers. Many, many families have been asked to leave or run off because they didn’t agree with Calvinism. We are under “Elder Rule” and you must agree to and sign a lengthy, multi-page application for membership that requires you to read and understand the “London Baptist Confession of 1689” and submit to elder rule to be “approved.” In that confession, it states that babies, born or unborn, who are not the elect, are destined for Hell. Many left just based on that. My children have not been allowed to be baptized and aren’t believed to be saved by D*n Gr**n until they “prove” that they are. He told me to watch if they have been reading their Bibles and if they act “regenerate.” As an adult, even I have doubted my salvation on more than one occasion. The beatdown we get from the pulpit each week has worn us down. D*n Gr**n is angry, he pounds on the pulpit, he yells, and he accuses us all of all kinds of sins and “stupid, wrong thinking” (exact words) during his HOUR AND HALF long sermon. (That’s sermon only, not music.) My husband and I knew we didn’t agree with Calvinism entirely, but never dared tell anyone because we would be disciplined. I couldn’t put my finger on the “Lordship Salvation” business. I didn’t know what it was called until now. It has brought great confusion to our entire family. We are told each week to question our salvation based on how we behave. Each week! We have been planning our escape for some time now. I kept thinking I was being too negative. This website is the final nail in the coffin. We will no longer be part of the cult of D*n Gr**n. Thank you for the peace you have given me and soon, my family. I cannot tell you how good it feels to have that burden of works off of my shoulders. Grace is what we knew to be true. I don’t know how we got suckered in.

  62. Candy, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    I am so thankful that you have escaped from your church that was teaching works salvation.

    I have said a prayer of thanks for God delivering you from that teaching.

  63. Candy
    Many people get suckered into Lordship Salvation. Man’s default position is not oriented to grace so truths like being saved by grace through faith alone get turned into slogans like “the faith that saves is never alone”. Pastors and theologians with PHDs and M-Divs can make plausible arguments through proof texting and text twisting and filtering. It’s good to hear that you weren’t fully taken in and have come out.

    I am just an occasional commenter here at ExPreacherMan (I have no affiliation with the site other than Free Grace) and like you I am thankful that I found this site. I encourage you to take a look around, read the articles, comments and join the conversation. It was good to hear your story.

  64. Candy Burman,

    I’m so glad you have come across this site and are now able to see more clearly just what type of spiritual oppression you have been under. You are correct in that it (lordship salvation) is totally false. All it can do is block people from salvation by adding to faith and frustrate people in their growth who are already believers.

    You will find a treasure trove of information here. I also have my own blog called standforthefaith.com

    There is an article there that you might enjoy. https://standforthefaith.com/2013/09/07/the-foundation-of-eternal-security-a-breath-of-fresh-air/

    Also try redeemingmoments.com

    For solid grace preaching and teaching that can help clear up a lot of things please consider pastor Dennis Rokser, Dr Tom Cucuzza, and Dr Ralph “Yankee” Arnold. They can be found on sermon audio and YouTube.

    God bless

    Jim F

  65. Thanks for contending for grace everyone. Thanks for praying for Zach too. They would like to operate to relieve brain swelling, but he is too frail right now. So please keep praying.

    Brian

  66. Brian, I’m praying for Zach – for God to strengthen him and reduce his swelling.

  67. Has anyone here checked out the website that has 13 parts exposing how John MacArthur is currently mainstreaming paganism in the church which targets especially young people? I won’t post the link here as that would be a violation of expreacherman’s policy.

  68. William, I haven’t seen it. MacArthur is accursed so long as he continues preaching a false gospel.

  69. Candy Burman – Good to meet another person who is seeing the bondage these people want to put us under. Stick around, we’ll be happy to fellowship with you.

  70. Praying for wisdom for the doctors Brian for Zach, and for decision making by the family. Praying for God’s comfort and help for them during this difficult time.

  71. Hi Candy,
    Welcome, you have made my day, everytime I hear someone delivered from Lordship thats a victory for us. We are all victims of Lordship Salvation, 99.9 % of churches have it in some form.

    I tried to tell a lady last night that it was in her church, that I used to attend, she defended the pastor and attacked me. So be it, I pray the lord will open her eyes, they don’t want it to cost their church, their children are in all the programmes, I know how hard and costly it is to leave and stand for the truth. Most people I talk to have to overlook so much to stay in most of the churches out there, we are so sick of hearing that there is no such thing as a perfect church, we are not after a perfect church, but sound doctrine.

    So welcome Candy, hang around, you are in an oasis of truth, read all the previous posts and comments it will enlighten you. We must defend and proclaim the simplicity of the gospel……

  72. Hey all,on Tuesday, I am meeting with some friends that I met from a ministry at the college I attend. We are going to be talking about what God has been doing in our lives recently, and in my walk for the past few months all I have been studying is the gospel. I am specifically going to be talking about how turning from sins is a false gospel. Being able to share the true gospel is why I continued going to the ministry, even after I heard “repent of sins to be saved”. I am just asking for prayers that they would be open to what I have to say, and that I will not deviate from the truth. Also I will definitely be praying for Zach.

  73. Ryan, I am praying for you to be gentle, wise, and courageous in your discussions with your group. Also, that if there are those in the group who have never trusted in Christ alone as Savior, that they would soften their hearts to God’s Word.

  74. William, the problem with John MacArthur is that he is so “over the top” in his works for salvation message that he makes others, such as the Southern Baptist Convention, Presbyterian Church USA, and Billy Graham, among so many others, sound reasonable by comparison.

    The closer a false gospel is to the real thing, the more deceptive it is. MacArthur is nowhere close to the real thing. There are many out there who decry the message of John MacArthur, but excuse, or even embrace the false messages of other more subtle deceivers.

    MacArthur is a non-subtle deceiver, who contradicts the gospel and even himself. Following is one of his quotes, which I will comment on in bold:

    In a Bible conference several years ago, a well-known speaker brought a message on salvation. He argued that to tell unsaved people they must surrender to Christ is the same as preaching salvation by works. He defined salvation as the “unconditional gift of everlasting life given to people who believe the facts about Christ, whether or not they choose to obey Him.”

    (My comment: choosing to obey Christ is not required for eternal life. If one thinks he must obey Jesus in order to receive eternal life, he is trusting in his works for eternal life.)

    And one of his main points was that salvation may or may not alter a person’s behavior. “Transformed character,” he said, “is desirable, but even if no change in lifestyle occurs, the one who has believed the facts of the gospel and received Christ can rest in the certainty of forgiveness and heaven.”

    (My comment: “altered behavior” and “transformed character” are not necessary conditions, nor consequences, of receiving, or proving that one has received, eternal life.)

    That’s pervasive in our society, preaching today; multitudes approach Christ on those very terms.

    (My comment: NO IT’S NOT. It is exceedingly rare, and MacArthur should know that. If multitudes approached Christ on those very terms, there would be more believers, more grace-oriented churches, and less prevalence of false works for salvation gospels. And, MacArthur wouldn’t sell so many books. The sad reality is, that few approach Christ on those terms.)

    They think there’s no real price to pay. They respond eagerly when offered forgiveness. They respond eagerly when offered the prospect of heaven, victory over death. They have no sense of the severity of their guilt before God. They have no desire to be freed, particularly from sin’s bondage, and they certainly have no overwhelming desire to obey Christ.

    (My comment: If there were a price for us to pay to receive the free gift of eternal life, it would not longer be a free gift. It would be a trade. One does not have to desire to be freed from sin’s bondage in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. One may want to continue to sin, and receive eternal life. Nor does one need to have an overwhelming desire to obey Christ in order to receive the free gift of eternal life.)

    And I’m convinced that such people are deceived by a corrupt gospel. The faith they are receiving and the faith they are relying on is only intellectual acquiescence, or maybe emotional grasping of something or someone to solve their problems, and it will not save.

    (My comment: Which is it? Intellectual acquiescence (“head faith”) or emotional grasping (“heart faith”)? MacArthur seems to rule out both. There is no difference between intellectual acquiescence and belief. And, earlier, MacArthur said such people don’t want to change, or have their problems solved, and here he is saying they do. Which is it?)

    Yet this is the most common form of evangelism. And many are preaching this kind of weak deceptive message.

    (My comment: This is the only form of evangelism, yet it is not very common. It is exceedingly rare. And, it is neither weak, nor deceptive.)

  75. John, Great post! I also visited a website that shows John MacArthur’s obvious roots and connection to freemasonry. His son in law, Kory Welch is heavily involved in freemasonry. That website sure exposed some real scary stuff about MacArthur. SCARY!

  76. John, At the main website that has 13 parts exposing MacArthur’s mainstreaming paganism in his church and other affiliated churches, there is a part which reveals how every summer MacArthur and his church host a youth camp and “church revival” where many high school youths from all over the U.S. attend and indulge in PAGAN REVELRY – wallowing in mud, dancing around a severed pig’s head, face painting, making grotesque facial expressions, Satanic hand signs, Wiccan hand signs, and the website also revealed that MacArthur and his church sponsors a “wicker man” carnival.

    The website has many color photos of high school youths from his church as well other churches that are affiliated with MacArthur who indulge in these activities.

    1 Corinthians 10:7 – Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

  77. William, it sounds like bad news. But, even if MacArthur were above reproach in his conduct, he still teaches an accursed gospel.

    I am not familiar with the website you are referencing, and would prefer to not promote it here.

  78. John, It is never my intention to promote it here on Expreacherman, please don’t read me wrong. I just want to expose other aspects of MacArthur and his false ministry. For him it’s not just Calvinism/Lordship Salvation, but also his family ties to freemasonry, paganism, and an obvious involvement in the New World Order. After going through those 13 parts that expose MacArthur, it is obvious that the man and his ministry has turned from bad to worse.

  79. I’ve been going through Ron Shea’s article on his website dealing with James 2. Shea makes note of the extensive use of irony in James.

    That stuck with me, and moving from there to this site, what do I find? Posts about John MacArthur and his LS teachings. What’s the connection? Blatant examples of irony!

    The irony with J-Mac is that–despite all his talk about “submitting to the Lord”–he is quite blind to his own failure to submit to the Lord’s way of salvation: simple, unadorned faith in Christ’s sacrifice. J-Mac is setting himself up to be a vivid example of those described in Matt. 7:21-23. He has rejected true submission to the Lord for “lordship salvation”. Talk about a need for repentance!

    I sure hope that dawns on him soon, before it’s too late.

  80. Chas, yeah – it kind of reminds me of Romans 10:3.

  81. Chas, you may have already come across this quote on Ron’s site (obviously, Ron is intending to be sarcastic):

    Eventually, that resourceful twentieth century expositor, John MacArthur, would go on to divine roughly 48 different varieties of faith in the passages of Holy Scripture, all from the single Greek root “pisteuo,” such as dead faith, living faith, professing faith, possessing faith, saving faith, faith that works, faith that claims to be authentic but does not have works, etc. etc.

  82. I think John Mac is one of the biggest deceptive teachers we have in our day, most Baptists especially don’t see through his accursed gospel, we lose many friendships due to this man bringing in this false message…..he is causing the division not us.

    He comes across so intelligent and articulate, very good at exposing the charasmatic movement, he gets alot of the hyper-charasmatics in his church, because he is very conservative. DON’T BE FOOLED……

  83. Sorry some sad news. Zach suffered strokes today and is considered dead now. They are donating his organs as he is only 21 years old.
    Grace for the family.

    Brian

  84. Brian, thanks for letting us know. Praying for Zach’s family.

  85. Brian, I’m praying for Zach’s family too.

  86. Hi all. Its been awhile since I have commented. I need some advise. I have stated before that I view my church as a mission field. I am blessed to teach a Bible study during the week and an adult class on Sundays. I finally was able to convince the leadership to let me teach right out of a book of the Bible instead of using some prepared study book. (Imagine actually going to the Bible and studying a book verse by verse. What a strange idea) The pastor recently asked me to preach on Nov. 13th. So the Lord continues to open up doors. But the issues in this church just go on and on and on and its wearing me down. Here are some recent things that have come up:

    1. The church just hired an assistant pastor. During a open question and answer time I asked him, “What must I do to be saved?” He gave some convoluted answer that made no sense. When he was finished, after about a two minute response, I asked, with some frustration, “I am a 15 year old and I don’t want to go to hell. What do I have to do?” He was a little flustered and did finally say that a person had to believe in Christ to be saved. The questions asked by the others were completely non-spiritual. The lead pastor went on and on how this guy was great because he had a masters in divinity or something like that. When it came to vote he was called unanimously. (I am not an official member so I don’t have a vote)

    2. As I stated before I just got the ok to teach through a book of the Bible. That is the first time since I started attending over 4 years ago that this has ever been done in that church. The first Sunday I was to start I pulled into the parking lot and there were a lot of cars. Usually during this early class there might be just 8 or 9 cars. This time there were over 20. When I went inside I discovered that there was a “new” and “exciting” class starting in another part of the church. I felt like I was punched in the gut. Then I thought maybe its a good thing. After church I got the promotional material for this new and exciting study. I almost puked. I read things like “we need a new way to study the Bible”. “Don’t think of this as a Bible study think of it as a book club where you discuss what you read”. The new way is to remove verses and chapters – I’m not kidding that’s it. You read a passage during the week and then you come on Sunday and discuss it with others. No leader – no teacher. This is even touted as a good thing since no one has to prepare a lesson. I lost people from my class who are babes in Christ and have never been taught from Gods word to that garbage. The pastor thinks this is great.

    3. During his sermons the pastor likes to throw out questions to the congregation. I think he does this to keep them engaged and he usually gets an answer shouted out right away. That’s no big deal to me but about a month ago he asked this question “Does it really matter if you have been good or bad on whether or not a person goes to heaven? There was complete silence – I mean silence. I finally yelled out no it does not matter if a person is “good” or “not”. The pastor agreed. This was one of the times that he presented salvation as a gift. I swear he has a split personality on salvation as I will proceed to explain.

    4. Yesterday during his sermon he was preaching on Jesus last utterance “It is finished” He was doing a good job and then he said this, “We here a lot about free grace but we seem to want to ignore the hard verses. Jesus said that if you don’t take up your cross…you don’t have eternal life”. I was so saddened. The assistant pastor sits in on my class and he hears me teach on free grace so its no mystery where this came from.

    Here is what I need advise on. I have already stopped tithing to this church. I will not give money to a church that is so off base. I contradict the pastor almost every time I teach. Going to church is a painful experience and I am sick of it. My wife will follow my lead on this. Do I stay and teach? Do I confront the pastor? Do I quit? Or do I just keep teaching until the pastor finally confronts me? I love the people on this site and it has been such a blessing so I value your thoughts and prayers.

  87. Russell, I will pray for your wisdom in navigating this difficult situation.

    One thought might be to take some of your pastor’s comments and show him from scripture why they are wrong. For example, does the pastor really believe that someone who fails to take up his cross is excluded from grace? If so, why?

  88. Russell, read your post last night and have prayed for you and pondered .
    you already answered your own question it should be a joy to teach but i do understand the frustration.
    as long as they allow you a voice to teach and even preach , I would hammer away at the Truth of The Gospel at every opportunity We should all strive to be an Original voice and put down the books books books
    I witnessed a gentleman who just received his PHD degree and when given opportunity to preach he quoted Francis Chan and from Pilgrims Progress book.
    Why a soul would spend all that time and resource to get a phd and then quote someone else ? I hope to never understand that.

    every church assembly that i have experienced whether live or on internet that have some grace teaching also preach law and are in error on the filling of the Holy Spirit .for a soul filled with the Holy Spirit and Yielded to the Spirit does not go wondering off into false doctrine but the potential is there to do so . For if a pulpit is not clear on The Gospel of Grace the pulpit CAN NOT present a Clear Gospel and will waiver in other areas. Jude warns us that when Truth is rejected you can not , will not to see Truth .
    im convinced false doctrine has the same affect on a soul as alcohol causing souls to be spiritually drunk and ineffective. The affects of the false doctrine left unchecked its like handing out shots of moonshine that have permanent spiritual consequences.

    praying for you and your wife to be protected from spiritual error .

    The frustration you are experiencing maybe from being exposed to weak or false doctrine that has been my experience it can drive a soul out of their minds

    Now below is my own personal opinion and experience in these matters . This is my Walk and remember we are all at different levels of growth . I personally can not tolerate false to weak doctrine i say weak because it is what is left unsaid that can do as much if not more damage than what is said.
    False doctrine makes me angry but i am learning to yield to the Holy Spirit in this area more quickly .

    1. I do not attend assemblies unless they have a clear Gospel of Grace doctrinal statement (a bonus would also be a positional statement )

    2 False to weak doctrine will affect you and can infect you

    3 Words to me are a big deal especially word structures for it is in ” The loaded language” that ensnares a soul and torments a soul so when i hear false doctrine the affects can linger until i process the loop thinking out of my being .

    below i would like to leave you a message that has impacted me and pray you may find it helpful to you Russell in your walk and in your current situation.

    Pastor Leonard Radtke
    Be Filled with the Spirit
    Description: #15 – Galatians 5:16
    Date: 6/15/1980
    http://www.gracebiblestudies.org/Message.aspx?MessageID=104

  89. Johninnc and Curtis, thanks for the good words. I will continue to teach the true gospel of grace as God opens up the door and will let the chips fall where they may. I am going to talk to the pastor about his statement about taking up the cross and try and explain to him from the Bible his error. I think I needed to vent because after typing out my long vent I felt a whole lot better. I love the people at this church and for their sake I will not quit until forced to by leadership. I also keep reminding myself that for the majority of my own Christian life I was trapped in the same false teachings. It was a older man who took the time to lovingly start correcting and teaching me that the Lord used to open my eyes that salvation is a free gift – a real gift. That was 5 years ago now. Isn’t amazing how understanding the free gift of salvation changes everything. I want everyone to find the same truth. So by Gods grace I will keep the faith and finish the course He has set before me at this church.

  90. Russell,

    My feeling on the matter is that you will eventually want to leave. I know because I’ve been in a similar situation. The difference was that I was a member. At my former church it became increasingly clear to me over time that the leadership favored LS in some fashion. The gospel seemed to be slightly different depending on who was teaching. They allowed me to teach and would have continued to beut I knew that if any issues arose that the leadership was not going to side with me. I knew that if I had stayed I would have made far to many waves and would have been cast as the problem causer. I would have also run the risk of causing division. It is not wise to do that when you can just respectfully depart.

    Here are some reasons why I ended up choosing to leave.

    1) The leadership was not teachable. Even if one might have been convinced, the rest would not.

    2) There was a dissonance of message.

    3) There was not close fellowship.

    4) I was not being fed by the preaching. It took all my awareness just to catch error because sometimes they were subtle.

    5) I could not anymore in good conscience invite people to church for fear of what error someone might give. For example, if they came to my class and heard the clear gospel then went forward later after the service invitation and got counseled in LS. Or to have the pastor preach contrary to me in the next session. Picture one of the regulars on here teaching on the errors of LS to be followed up directly by a MacArthur style lordshipper.

    6) I had to realize that their church was not a mission field. Not while in their building during their service because technically I was going against their LS leaning doctrinal statement. It would be better to reach them in the community with my messahe and invite them to my Bible study or the like.

    7) There is a biblical separation issue because we are to come out from among the false teachers. By me being there I was giving credibility to them and their message. I could not tell people with any power to not believe the pastors error because in their mind it couldn’t be that bad because after all I was going there. My message carried more weight once I left.

    8) We should not share the stage with false teachers. It tarnishes us.

    9) We should not give them money or even bid them God speed.

    10) There is internal frustration and vexation of Spirit

    I finally left and told the Pastor my reason. Because I was respectful and handled it before it got to a fight it was a peaceable thing. I’ve heard horror stories of the “I’ll go down swinging scenario. Bottom was that I didn’t want to put my own reputation in jeopardy for future witness.

    It was one of the better decisions that I have ever made. God has since provided me a grace church to attend. I am a deacon and the board and Pastor is in agreement. It took two years but was worth the wait.

    Jim F

  91. Russell I feel your frustration.Your post is close to my heart as I was trying to help the church I was attending.I was very respectful talking with leadership and had three meetings with the pastor and thought I was going to be able to open their eyes to grace.After three years of trying and leaving frustrated I thank God Im free now.Been out of any organised church for quite some time now.Hope your able to handle the frustration better than I could. I always enjoy reading the articles and post on here as you all are very helpful to me thanks

  92. saw a sighn today thats a good example of ” loaded language”
    “Church is God’s gift but assembly is required ”
    now that sounds good to the natural, carnal moral belivers or unbelivers who are looking for god.
    the church is not God’s gift.. Eternal life is.
    we assemble to stir one another up in Christ Jesus. not to be a Church. Assembly is the working of Holy Spirit
    also Believer souls are God’s gift to Jesus the Bride of Christ.

    so when a soul would nibble on the loaded language they assembl for wrong reason’s or attitude.
    the preach devotion first before blessing is solid Law.. Works

  93. Curtis, that is very clever, diabolical deception!

  94. “Church is God’s gift but assembly required”
    another thing wrong with that quote. its not a gift if a soul must do something to receive or maintain.

  95. Curtis, I agree.

    If it costs the recipient, it’s not a gift.

  96. “Church is God’s gift but assembly required”

    Curtis…
    That sounds like something the RCC would put on a sign.

  97. Curtis, my wife just saw where a Southern Baptist pastor had “shared” on Facebook a picture with a quote from the old “Mama’s Family” show:

    “Now mama, you don’t have to go to church to go to heaven.”

    Mama responds, “well, you don’t have to wear a parachute to jump out of an airplane either, but it certainly helps.”

    My comment: This is a tacit denial of the gospel. Why a pastor would post this, without pointing out that it is in error, is really scary. The pastor needed to have pointed out that going to church does not “certainly help” in whether or not someone gets into heaven.

  98. “You need to go to church” is something I think many of us have drummed into our heads since little. I hear people talking about their wayward kids; “If only they would go to church…” . And I reflect on how ‘going to church’ caused so much of a problem in my walk with Him. Now I really desire to have that place to go to, for my children to go to. We are thankful for those we can meet with and feel sad about the Mega church by our new house that is totally a loadship church, but we can try to do our part.

  99. Does anybody know anything about Torchbearers International and Major Ian Thomas? Our bible study group as started a devotional of Major Ian Thomas and Stuart Briscoe’s name came up as someone who endorses Thomas, so a red flag went up with me.

  100. (Contents removed by administrator).

  101. JohnWI, there was considerable discussion in our comments several years ago about Ian Thomas.

    I believe he was associated with the Keswick movement. I am not well-versed in Keswick theology, but some Keswick teachers hold that good works are necessary to verify that one has eternal life.

  102. Jason, I understand your concern about the suitability of one of the presidential candidates.

    But, the mission of this site is to promote and defend the gospel.

    I would recommend that you read the following articles that touch on your concerns:

    https://standforthefaith.com/2016/10/27/voting-and-faith/

    https://expreacherman.com/2013/10/04/the-full-armor-of-god-versus-the-contemporary-christian-costume/

  103. I apologize for any distractions. Thank you for the links. Back on topic.

    This year, I came to Remeeding Moments and came back to this site. Since then, thoughts about Calvinism have weighed on my mind. All the names on the list of gospel perverters have shocked me at some time or another. Stanley in particular. Having read his book on eternal security, which reads like a page straight out of FG theology, I would have never guessed he would be up there. I have been through denial, anger, and admission over Billy Graham, John Macarthur, and the whole reformation. My world is a confusing place.

    I used to listen to Hank Hanegraaf. Apologetics was about the essentials of the historic Christian faith, and they did not include eternal security and whosoever will. Calvinism and Wesleyanism were “within the pale of orthodoxy”. Dispensationalism was considered aberrant theology. There was no such thing as a lone ranger Christian, yet I quit going to church anyway. I was starved. Macarthur was a frequent guest on the show. I hoped we could all get along in the essentials. Loadship prevented that. Now I hope we get along in free grace, but the crossless gospel is threatening that as well.

    I keep wondering what else I have been deceived about. Did Christianity result in the rise of science, or did Calvinism? Was my country founded on Christianity or loadship? If Baptists are not Protestants, then why was Spurgeon a Calvinist? Did Irenaeus and Polycarp teach Lordship heresy? Are conspiracy theories really true? Is the earth flat? (No, I won’t go there) I try to keep my sanity, but it is really hard. I feel like I’m in the Matrix.

    I have longed to talk to someone. I have been without a church for so long.

  104. Jason, I understand your confusion.

    I don’t know the answers to all of your questions, but I also wonder to what extent this was ever really a “Christian” nation. My guess is that there has been a lot of lordship/churchianity since the beginning.

    As for conspiracy theories, I try not to get too wrapped up in them. Having said that, we know there is spiritual wickedness in high places.

    Ephesians 6:12: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

  105. Welcome Jason
    you will find many if not all of us here at expreacherman.com who have come out from the bewitching spell of another gospel. while attending bible churches.
    and yes the tendency is when a soul comes out from the ditch of legalism to go right over in the other ditch of licenses. both ditches are in error and distract from our perfect postion in Christ Jesus.
    The Gospel of Grace . the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodlyness.
    how?
    by enjoying Christ Jesus through his word by repeated responses to grace through faith. the only response to Grace is Faith. allowing the Holy Spirit by the Law of the Spirit to fulfill all on our behalf in spite of ourselves.
    dont go back let the passed be the passed. it has been paid for by the blood of Jesus. I remind myself as i stumbled all over being religious for many years.
    now enjoying the Faith rest Life.

  106. Jason, I’m glad you found this site and can also understand your confusion about the various brands of Christianity which permeate contemporary evangelicalism. Along with studying scripture, I would encourage you to spend time reading the articles and comments here at Expreacherman, as well as at the Redeeming Moments and Stand for the Faith blogs. They will clarify and solidify your understanding of the biblical Gospel and help sharpen your discernment probably as much as or more than any other sites on the Internet.

    I also concur with John’s questioning of America as ever having been a “Christian” nation in the way many understand it. This nation was founded on the principle of religious freedom, which provides a climate in which the biblical Gospel can go forth unhindered to be freely accepted or rejected by its citizens as well as exported to other nations. Some groups with a dominionist mindset like to call America a Christian nation because of their worldly and misguided ambition to establish the kingdom of God on earth by surreptitiously merging church with state, rather than believing that Christ will establish His kingdom at the Second Coming. However, they are unwittingly helping to establish the kingdom of the antichrist rather than Christ’s kingdom, which is not of this world (John 18:36).

    As for the earth being flat, I assure you it’s an oblate spheroid.

  107. I don’t know if this response will be of any help but you are not the “lone ranger” when it comes to being confused. Macarthur is particularly confusing with his mixed hermeneutics and Hanegraaff is an angry man who has made up his own interpretation scheme. When I considered that there were various theologies within “Christendom” that fall within the pale of “orthodoxy” I too was puzzled. So I searched for answers starting with: What is Calvinism, Wesleyanism, Dispensationalism, etc? How do Calvinist, Wesleyans, Dispensationalist, etc reach their conclusions? For me hermeneutics— interpretation that is consistent, coherent and congruent is the key to sorting things out.

    A plain reading of the Bible in a consistent, coherent and congruent way is the hemeneutical lens of Free Grace Theology (Dispensationalism too). The gift is not the prize; believer does not equal disciple, justification does not automatically result in experiential sanctification, faith is not the same as faithfulness, not all judgment deals with hell fire and eternal life manifesting in us is not the same as having eternal life being given to us. Most isms have theological imposed lenses such as the NT reinterprets the OT or all biblical covenants are ONE covenant or Jesus saved us to be good so if we are not good Jesus must not have saved us (Lordship).

    When you open up a can of corn you expect to see corn regardless of the name on the label. The same is true with Bible teachers; I expect to hear Christ crucified as satisfaction to the Father for all sin and Christ as substitute for sinners and Christ’s righteousness imputed to the believer as a gift with no work required on the sinners part. We are saved by grace through faith not by works of righteousness. That is biblical soteriology. I believe the other ologies are important to growth and sanctification and I love discussing them but the Gospel is bedrock.

    PS-It’s a shame we have to use the term “free” in front of grace (if it isn’t free it isn’t grace) just as it is a shame we have to use the word “inerrant” in front of word of God (if it’s the word of God it is without error) but this is what it has come to.

  108. All answers have been helpful. Lordship salvation sums up pretty well most of the things that have confused me throughout my life. I recall a moment when I was having doubts about my salvation, and someone from InterVarsity addressed my concerns by asking me if I had a change of life. I was dealing with college at the same time, and I was totally devastated. I repented in tears, asked Jesus into my heart yet again, resolved to give my all to Jesus, the whole nine yards. When asked if I went to church, I answered that I attended several churches, and that answer did not satisfy him. He urged me to go to councilors, but I had no time for that. My personality needs time to rest after a long day of school or a job.

    I have had Calvinistic influences in my life, Armstrongism, Wurmbrand and his mystical literature, the reformed Worldwide Church of God (that did not go far enough either), liberal and Marxist influences from college, guilt trips about racism, functionally non-Free Grace churches, charismatics, and inner voices of doubt.

    Loadship salvation can easily form spontaneously in a doubting Christian. When I was merely 12 and had not heard of Macarthur, I doubted that I truly believed and was beating myself up with guilt without outside help.

    It is simply amazing how much flat earth tripe is on Youtube.

  109. Katmazdobelieve

    Jason65,
    No worries. You are not alone. It seems as I read the experiences of others I am reading my own history.
    I was Arminian, unbeknownst, until I came into contact with Calvinism through MacArthur!
    My immaturity and the lack of proper understanding regarding Salvation had had me in a serious guilt- ridden mess of uncertainty. I would constantly “repent”. I even slipped into literal lawkeeping within the HRM.
    What made it worse? I would see the con men on TBN, or the latest greatest “teacher”, or Apostle, or Phophet/messianic rabbi at the local assembly with there perfect lives (only on the outside where the Pharisees clean!) filled with the blessing of God according to their personal testimonies. I, naturally, compare lives. I all ways felt that I wouldn’t be able to get it together. I was right about that. I would never be good enough no matter what I did nor would it matter if I continued to give it my all. I was a broken sin-laden human with no hope. I tried so hard to be that good little Pharisee. 2009 was the catalyst that lead me here six years later but know that I was a bundle of anxiety and depression for those 6 long years. I no longer have that anxiety or uncertainty. I believe the Gospel of Christ. That’s all I have to do. I literally have rest now. My burden isn’t a burden anymore because I don’t have to carry it. I rest in what he has done.
    This site, along with a couple of others, has been a blessing. Stay here, read the articles, and if you start having those nagging feelings again, come back here…..

    I also want to add that all of you have helped me tremendously. I don’t comment often and when I do I often avoid the language of the modern church. The terminology is just tainted and I don’t want my words misunderstood, but
    I believe that this was meant to be the last place I landed in those dark times of fear. I look back now, I reflect on my spiritual walk and I see how all those experiences have shaped me. I loathed it when I had to walk through it but I am grateful for it now.
    So thank you and
    God bless you,
    Kate

  110. Well said Kate and so simple.. We have received our eternal rest through the gospel of Christ alone. This wonderful news is so easy to see, yet the legalistic world won’t or can’t see it. They can’t or won’t see the forest for the trees.

  111. Friends, please pray for me. I am preaching tomorrow. I have a nasty cold. Pray for physical strength and boldness to proclaim God’s Word. Thanks.

  112. Russell, I have prayed for you and your listeners.

  113. Prayed for you here, Russell!

    As I look around at the condition of the church at large, it seems as though the Lord is raising this issue of lordship salvation as the last, great, heretical clump of dung to be expelled from the body of Christ. Every “denomination” has been infected by it. It’s foundational for every quasi-Christian cult or movement new and old–which should tell us something.

    Shouldn’t it?

  114. Russell,

    I prayed for you and your listeners as well.

  115. Chas, yes it should!

  116. Praying for you Russel

  117. below is a defintion of “Assimulation” until a denmonation would yeild to know what the gospel is not there is no clarity of the gospel.. the ist ism ites (churchanity / loadship, lordship for a free gift) and will strive to slop up every kind of doctrine / teaching that comes along and attempt to mix into or assimulate in to their collective Thinking.
    hence when a soul would raise an objection or question they are troublemakers.
    how do we defend the gospel. ?
    As Paul did proclaim the Gospel.

    “Assimilation is a term referring to another part of the adaptation process initially proposed by Jean Piaget. Through assimilation, we take in new information or experiences and incorporate them into our existing ideas. The process is somewhat subjective because we tend to modify experience or information somewhat to fit in with our pre-existing beliefs.

    Assimilation plays an important role in how we learn about the world around us.”

  118. Thanks for the prayers. The message went very well. God bless you all.

  119. Johninnc,

    I just found this on the Blue letter bible under their frequently asked questions section. It doesn’t say who wrote it. Again I have to shake my head and ask, What kind of love is this? God is no respecter of persons! This sounds like the god of the muslims, not the God of the bible.

    If God works equally in the lives of all people and one accepts His invitation to salvation and another doesn’t, where is the difference? Does the one who accepts have greater intelligence or a greater affinity for spiritual things? Is it prideful or wrong to think the difference lies within the person who is saved?

    Part of the source of this quandary lies within the initial premise: that God works equally in each individual’s life. By this, I assume it is meant that God used the same degree of effort in calling and wooing the Apostle Paul to a belief in Christ as He did with John F. Kennedy and Adolf Hitler.

    Unfortunately — or fortunately, depending on your point of view — this is not the case. First of all, God is what we term “omnipotent”; that is, He is all-powerful (Matthew 19:26). Not only can God do all things, but the things He does are neither difficult nor easy for Him. Yoda from Star Wars fame, once said to his pupil Luke, “There is no try…only do or do not.” While this would be an impossibility for a human like Luke to ever attain, God (being infinitely powerful) can never be thwarted in His desires, and so accurately reflects Yoda’s statement. God does not “try” to do anything; He either does it or does not do it. What occurs in our salvation is a direct reflection of this principle.

    All men live at enmity with God and our wills are bent toward only evil (Romans 3). There is nothing within us that would or could ever desire God. But God has something else in store for some of us. What God does in the act of Salvation is alter our will to desire Him. He takes something that could never desire Him and causes it to desire nothing but Him and His glory (Ephesians 2:1; Titus 3:4-7). So the Holy Spirit does more than enable us to choose God, the Holy Spirit works in us to such a fashion that our desire to choose God is unquenchable and in fact, we can do nothing to resist Him.

    Now He does not do this for everyone; it is entirely dependant on whom He chooses or elects (Ephesians 1:4-6). So God may choose one and not another. He does not “try” to save — He either saves or does not save. We may never know why He choose one man and not another, but we can be sure that it comes from nothing of our own merit (Romans 3; Ephesians 2:8-9). If God sees a use for any of us, it is a use He Himself created in us and it is a use for which He purposefully created us.

    And this is to mean simply that we can have no hand in our salvation — though we bear the responsibility to trust in Christ to be saved, we can by no means come to that trust on our own. So, while to say that because of the fact that one is now saved, he must have exhibited less love for the world or a stronger will or a greater understanding of the Gospel is not necessarily prideful, it is just wrong. So, yes, it would be wrong to say the difference would be within the person.

    Another point that might guide us to a better understanding is that it is not the love of God that determines who will be saved, rather it is the will (or decision-making faculty) of God. His love is what demands our well-being after the His will has chosen us to be God’s children.

  120. John Tully, yes, this is classic Calvinism, with an attendant dose of LS.

    One does not receive eternal life by having more, or less love for the world.

    One receives eternal life when he believes the gospel. And, one must have a basic understanding of the gospel in order to believe it.

    God draws everyone, but does not irresistibly draw anyone.

  121. Ai yi yi John Tully. There are a number of Calvinists, but Chuck Smith being basically Arminian had a son-in-law, Brian Broderson who is Calvinist and much of Calvary Chapel has gone into a little of both errors. Yoda? They have to quote from Star Wars to make their commentary relevant? Makes me think of the song from Mary Poppins, just a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down… deadly medicine.

  122. This is an excellent video on Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron, have a listen to how Comfort denies once saved always saved which Calvanists and Lordshippers don’t normally do.

    Type in Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron Works Salvation Repackaged. On you tube.

  123. Mary, it is unusual for Calvinists/LSers to deny eternal security. They usually think that a lifetime of persevering in some unspecified level of holiness and good works proves that someone is saved. And, if those things aren’t there – again at some unspecified level – it proves a person was never saved in the first place.

    Either way – denying eternal security or insisting on perseverance of the saints – changes the gospel of grace into a false gospel of works.

  124. Sometimes the style in MacArthur’s circles includes physical abuse and death threats.

    http://johnmacarthur.forumchitchat.com/post/education-system-abuse-and-deaths-at-the-masters-college-and-ibex-7227055?pid=1294121233 (not promoting the site)

    (Administrator’s note: we will allow this link this time, but we also do not endorse the site)

    The poster “bjw” reports incidents at Masters College that include kicking shins, throwing rocks, and body slamming.

    What we are dealing with in MacArthur is not just a false teacher but a destructive cult.

    MacArthur also came up in CultEducation, a site dealing with cults in general, and similar reports were being made.

  125. my wife and I witnessed first hand a IFCA church assembly of 40 some year’s. bitterly split in 2 over the doctrine of John Mac.. calvanism.
    the behavior I saw is consistent with the behavior in the above thread link.

    were you have law keeping (legalism) for justification and or sanctification there will be immorality.
    It was said to congregation “if you question the elders you are of satan the devil” . elder rule was to be followed with out question..

  126. John Tully, your quote from the Blue letter Bible site says:
    “And this is to mean simply that we can have no hand in our salvation — though we bear the responsibility to trust in Christ to be saved, we can by no means come to that trust on our own”

    I am trying to make sense of the above sentence. How can God hold us responsible to trust in Christ to be saved, and at the same time, “we can by no means come to that trust on our own”?
    Am I missing something or is something wrong with my intellect and understanding?
    Do they (the Calvinists) not see the contradiction in that statement?
    If God has to give me that “trust/faith” to be saved and I can’t come to that trust myself, how can I be held responsible?
    Doesn’t John 16:8 teach that the Holy Spirit convicts the “world” of sin, righteousness and judgement, and it is each individual’s responsibility to respond to that conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit by trusting in Christ as our Saviour Who died and paid our entire sin-debt on the cross?
    Sounds to me like this is: double-talk or talking out of both sides of the mouth. Who is the author of confusion? Not the God of the Bible!

  127. Alice, I agree. It sounds like Calvinist doublespeak.

  128. from blue letter website gospel presentation
    warning fasle gospel of self effort and double talk. .
    now with a false gospel presentation what could blue letter teach you?
    before you start reading at websites check their statement of faith and gospel presentation.
    blue letter statement of fait they don’t take a position on the Gospel of Grace.
    then works are automatic.

    “It is not just enough that you know these truths. We must individually place our trust in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. This means repenting of our sins and believing in Jesus Christ as God’s Son who came to earth as a human to die for our sins so that we might have everlasting life with Him. Placing our trust in Jesus requires faith, which is a hope-filled belief in Jesus even though we don’t see Him face to face (John 20:29; Hebrews 11:1). And salvation is by faith alone, not by any works we could do to please God (John 6:28-29).”

  129. Hi guys,

    Was the church of laodocea in Revelation 3, saved but carnal, as we know the Calvanists would have a different take on it.

  130. Mary, the church at Loadocea was comprised of eternally secure, lukewarm believers.

    Some will say otherwise, but I don’t think so.

  131. Mary – either they are the ‘church’ or they aren’t and I’m with John, I believe it’s believers. Any non-believer can walk into an assembly but I don’t believe that’s who He is addressing (any more anyways). Tom Cucuzza also has a recent series on Revelation. Great to ‘see’ you again by the way!

  132. Thanks Holly, just revisiting that series, on the church that made god sick. Just reading Rev. 3 sounds like they were not saved, they were wretched, and miserable and poor and blind and naked, that doesn’t really sound like believers maybe carnal but its a bit hard to swallow. It just seems satan has more scriptures to back his arguments up than we have. We have to work really hard to find out what the context is….Just glancing at these passages doesn’t help.

  133. Mary, the context never says they are carnal – some people infer that – but, it says they are lukewarm.

    Revelation 3:15 tells me that it is their works with which Jesus is dissatisfied.

    I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

    Since it is focused on works, and since we are not saved by works, this should be an important clue that this is dealing with saved people. Talking to unsaved people about their works would really not accomplish much.

    It may seem hard to swallow that these people were saved by looking at their works. But, fruit inspection is never a reliable basis by which to judge whether or not someone has eternal life. In fact, it would make our own assurance of eternal life impossible.

    You are right that context is critical, as Satan loves to use scripture out of context.

    But, Satan does not have more scriptures to back up his arguments than we have.

  134. 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

    we have same principle here in Luke 11:23 The Lord Christ Jesus would have us take a postion.
    either you love me or you hate me. please pick one. it makes Him sick that we not take a position.
    We see that going on in “churchanity” pulpit people will not take a postion but bounce around the fences being fence hound. because the clarity of The Gospel offends and divides. Error sells books with hooks.

    a personalnal comment.. im pursudaded when a soul is under the influence of another gospel as they reveal their error in revalation looking for salvation. its like wrestling a drink away from a drunkard. I would focus on The Gospel of Grace and keep pointing them to “it is finished” “as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord so walk yea in Him” “while we were yet sinners Christ Died for the ungodly” the religious soul hates that their works are not acceptable before God that are not wrought by Holy Spirit.
    an apostate takes the Truth of Gods word and Turns it to their own advantage. We have clear warnings in Jude about false teachers and warnings about turning from Truth.
    Just keep pointing souls to Jesus and The Gospel of Grace to those who would hear.

  135. John or anyone, Is the book of Enoch a reputable source to read in regards to Genesis 6:4 and Jude 6? Would you consider the book canon even though it is not included in God’s Word? There are numerous videos on YouTube that talk about Satanic demonic/human hybrid breeding and Satanic demonic/animal hybrid breeding which is obviously talking about Genesis 6:4 and Jude 6 and its implications and how it relates to the great UFO and “alien” deception deceiving the masses.

  136. William, I don’t want to get too far afield with this discussion, because I think it would detract from the mission of this website, which is primarily to promote and defend the gospel message.

    I have not personally looked into the book of Enoch, and don’t intend to. I do not consider anything not in God’s word to be canon.

  137. William,

    I agree with John. There are reasons why the book of Enoch is not canonical. I’d treat is as a work of fiction.

  138. I agree with what John and Jim said

    also would like to add you-tube not a good place to learn bible doctrine from unless they have a clear doctrinal statement and clear gospel of grace Gospel presentation. a pulpit with board of elders better yet

    Yes there is a Satanic conspiracy afoot, UFO’s apart of it

    Here below is a link to bible study you may find helpful

    Pastor Leonard Radtke
    Description: #11 – Jude 7 & Gen 13,19
    Date: 9/17/1978
    http://www.gracebiblestudies.org/Message.aspx?MessageID=379

  139. God is all knowing; God is judge. He didn’t gives us the right to judge . Life is short. Focus on your own shortcoming.

  140. Annette, you are correct in that we cannot judge whether or not someone has eternal life. But, we can judge whether someone’s purported gospel does or does not line up with scripture.

  141. Curtis, I find that Youtube is not a good place to learn anything. It is a breeding ground for flat earthers, truthers, and other nutters. The number of likes they get is really sad.

  142. Annette
    Welcome thanks for the comment .
    if i may let us keep sin sin and say what bible calls sin . To define sin as Shortcoming is not Loving the Truth .
    We are also as believers in Christ Jesus to Look unto Jesus and count up what Gods word says to be True . Taking Gods side against ourselves

    Rom_6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Heb_12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Jud_1:21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

    1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

  143. Flat earthers yeah I had interesting conversation with a flat earther he kept trying to tell me how he knows the earth is flat I kept sharing the gospel in between. That was something how people try to disprove science and actually believe that junk. The common denominator among flat earthers is they don’t have a clear gospel message and or no gospel.
    The gentleman seamed to be a confused believer who see’s ” religious churchianity ” all around him and could not make sense of it all. Thought he was going to hell because of his bad behavior and he smoked cigarettes.
    what a privileged to see a soul’s countenance light up when Oriented to The Truth of The Gospel . The Gospel of Grace.
    I didn’t know about flat earthers until meeting this gentleman

  144. Annette, good to see you here. Paul chastised believers for not judging among each other (1 Cor 5), and Jesus told us to judge, but with a righteous judgment, not according to the appearance. Jesus said we would know false prophets by their fruits (doctrine) so it would require us to judge their doctrine. Paul warned Timothy to ‘take heed’ to the doctrine, saving both himself and his hearers. We are also told in Rom 16:17, we are to mark and avoid those who bring a doctrine contrary to the one we learned, and this requires ‘judging’. I believe the basis of not judging until we remove the beam out of our own eye, might be what you are referring to, but we still have to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered. We see Paul warning (requiring judgment), John, Peter, James, etc., and they were not in the wrong, and considered themselves no better then those they served. God bless you as you search the Scriptures even to check to see if what you are saying lines up with what He tells us.

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