Lordship Salvation: Looking for Evidence While Denying Proof

By johninnc

John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The Bible teaches that anyone who believes in Jesus as Savior receives, at the moment of belief, eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.

The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The Bible does not teach that there is any evidence of salvation, other than whether one has trusted in Christ alone for eternal life.

Lordship “salvation”, on the other hand, involves the endless search for evidence of salvation – even while explaining away the proof of salvation.

Let’s first review what Lordship “salvation” (LS) is:

LS is the unsupportable belief that the PERFORMANCE of works, the PROMISE of works, or the EVIDENCE of works must accompany faith in Christ in order to establish, or provide evidence, that such faith has resulted in eternal life.

Now, let’s evaluate three examples in which the Bible says someone believes, and yet LSers will deny that the people in question have  eternal life.

Soil number 2 in the parable of the Sower

Luke 8:13: They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The Bible CLEARLY and unambiguously says these people believed. As such, they have passed from death unto life (John 5:24).

This is is not good enough for the unflinching LSer. No. The lack of perseverance of people represented by soil number 2 convinces the LSer that such people were never saved.

Consider the following quote from J.D. Greear, pastor of the multi-campus Summit Church in Raleigh, North Carolina:

They remain in the church for a period of time. But, they do not endure when the sun of persecution comes out and will not in the end be saved. 

Believers who do not confess Christ

John 12:42:  Nevertheless among the chief rulers many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

The Bible says these people believed. What other evidence should we need?

But, that’s not good enough for the intrepid LSers.  For example, another huge North Carolina church – Calvary Church in Charlotte – has something contradictory to what the Bible says.

Calvary says that one  must confess Christ in order to be saved.  From their “Articles of Faith”:

We believe that all who receive by faith alone, Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and who confess Him before their fellow men, are born again of the Holy Spirit and thereby become children of God. 

Demas

Philemon 1:24: Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers. 

2 Timothy 4:10: For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Paul describes Demas as a fellow laborer, but later says Demas has forsaken him for the world. Demas is a Christian who did not persevere.  According to the Bible, anyone who believes in Christ has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited – no matter what happens in their life down the road.

What would the Southern Baptist Convention – a group of 50,000 cooperating churches – have to say? Following is an excerpt from”The Baptist Faith and Message”:

All true believers endure to the end. 

What does “endure to the end” even mean? Did Demas “endure to the end”? Was Demas a “true believer”?

Jack Weaver sums it up this way:

LSers insist on evidence by works to scare their followers – by promising them a false sense of security based on the evangelist’s idea of a sufficient (but indeterminate and never defined or enumerated) quality and quantity of works as proof to the evangelist or his cohorts. 

In other words, LSers are so hung up on works providing evidence of salvation that they will deny irrefutable PROOF from scripture that someone is saved.

 Does your church teach that you should look for evidence of salvation (other than whom one is trusting to get to heaven) and deny, or explain away, proof from the Bible that someone was saved?

If you don’t know, find out.  And, if the answer is yes, get out.

For what God’s Word says about how to receive eternal life, click here:  The Real Story

125 responses to “Lordship Salvation: Looking for Evidence While Denying Proof

  1. Mary, don’t get me wrong, if we know, we should reject it. Paul said the idols were nothing, unless the conscience of another was affected (speaking to food offered to idols), and so eating the foods didn’t make the one it didn’t bother, no better or no worse.

    But if it does trouble one’s conscience, or one knows there is occult practices involved, we know we’re to have no part with the unfruitful deeds of darkness. Also on the other hand in Acts it tells us to abstain from things offered to idols, so I think it’s best to always avoid where we know. I don’t spend much time on those things, but I try to stay informed, and prove all things when they come up in my life. If they don’t, I might know absolutely nothing about it.

  2. sorry I meant SELWYN STEVENS

  3. Funny as i was thinking that this morning, but then you think, if a true christian started practicising yoga or got convinced that the toronto thing was okay, as we have it here in small pockets in Australia. Then surely spirits can affect us, not possess us but oppress us.

    I went to an old book in my library from Selwyn Hughes and its called the New Age, the old lie in a new package. He said christians shouldn’t be practicing Martial arts, acupuncture, visualisation/guided imagery, colour therapy, homeopathy, iridology and all these health therapies as they are of the occult, even Dave Hunt wrote against these practices..

    I know Holly what your saying, but based on what I have researched over t he years, I can only base my decisions on the knowledge I have learnt over the years. Also there is a passage in Dueteronomy of i think it was Achan who bought an idol in the tent. That, I so don’t worry about anymore, some say we shouldn’t bring home little trinckets from Asia as they can bring a curse into your home and make u sick, that I don’t buy anymore as i think that has to do with the whole generational curses, as Alice and I were saying we wouldn’t have a Buddah in our backyard as that is all very in now.

    Surely Auras and crystals and Reiki healing and reflexlogy and dowsing., surely christians shouldn’t practice these things? Would we hang up a yin and yang chime in our backyard under our pergolas.

    I just wonder have we been misinformed about these topics.Unfortunately i have gone to Selwyns statement of faith, at the end of the book of how to be saved, and as always repent and be willing to turn away from sin and submit to God. Luke 13.5. Ask jesus to be yr lord and take first place in your life Romans 12.1.2

    Sorry to be bringing this all up, but i now question everything, as I have been so deceived about the gospel, now I wonder have I been deceived in this area too of (Health and Healing therapies). Its an area of real discernment, but our discernment must be based on our knowledge.

    The bible isn’t going to say don’t practice Reiki Healing or iridology. I thought the chinese methods of healing all had yin and yang and ki and energies, as we know satan has his counterfeit healing methods.

    Thanks Holly and John for your responses, truly appreciate your input.

  4. Mary, I don’t think that evil spirits can enter Christians.

    Having said that, I think believers should be wary of non-biblical practices that claim spiritual enhancement as one of their properties, if for no other reason than those claims are false.

  5. Hi Bryan,
    I couldn’t get either of those links to work.

  6. Mary – you can trust the Lord to lead you on things you should or should not do, your part is to choose the good part, the needed thing (Luke 10:38-42). Don’t worry about small things unless you see clear prohibition in His Word or your conscience bothers you. We all can be guided by our own conscience. Some cannot drink at all. I have a friend who still just wears dresses. I know some that get judged by habits by others. It’s not our place to do more than point people to clear Scripture and trust the power of God’s Word in one’s life to clear it up.

    Btw, if you are afraid of the statins, my doctor suggested Red Rice yeast and said it is very effective in lowering cholesterol (in any vitamin or drug store). Start slow, I hear it’s powerful. Love in Him ❤

  7. Mary, what I found interesting about Romans 10:9 is the differing views, the homologeo some say is just agreeing with Him who He is, and that the rulers who did not confess Him publicly were identified as the Holy Spirit as believers. Since we do not see anywhere confession with our mouth being identified with eternal life, others say this speaks to a different salvation, i.e., what kind of deliverance. It’s by believing that one is made righteous, (which includes the free gift of eternal life) so that the salvation is physical, as in being saved from consequences, loss of rewards, loss of fellowship, chastening, etc. I’m inclined towards that direction.

    Another interesting one is when you look at chapters 9-11, you start identifying who is being spoken TO or ABOUT, almost the entire portion is Israel (as a nation – not individuals) that is spoken TO or ABOUT. If you look to the passages that are referred back to, again passages regarding things Israel must do concerning their promised Messiah, it’s interesting to note that they were supposed to be the ones that publicly proclaimed (as a nation) who the Messiah was. And in an ‘off’ sort of a manner, Caiaphas did prophesy that He would die for the nation. But they will one day (national remnant of Israel) confess who He is and they will mourn and He will refine them and bring 1/3 of them through the fire, and they will then call on His name and say that He is Lord (Zech 12:10 – the end of 13). I think that is also a possibility. But where I see a preponderance of verses that use believe alone as the condition for receiving eternal life, and I do not see one other verse that links up with Rom 10:9 as a witness to it speaking to being a condition of receiving eternal life, I feel that we can safely use the other Scriptures to tell people about the Lord, what He has done, and what they must do. ❤

  8. Maybe you could just copy/paste it Bryan.

  9. Bryan Roach

    At my former church, the Pastor would use Romans 10:9 every time, but he would usually take it a step further, by misusing Matthew 10:32-33, “32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven” It was a tactic to test new believers by pressuring them to come forward and stand in front of the church as a sign of “public confession”. It gave the impression that if you didn’t come forward, you wasn’t really save, a far cry from just trusting in the Gospel of Christ.

    I have been accused of over thinking or being too picky when it comes to the gospel. But when you give Satan an inch, he’ll take a mile.

    A while back I emailed Pastor Tom Cacuzza on this subject and he gave me this, I hoped this link works.

    God Bless,

    Bryan R.

    https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&view=btop&ver=1p72xu94p9jau#attid%253Datt_14b18811320e1aa0_0.1

  10. Mary, I pray that you can get your cholesterol lowered with the right medication. I believe God will help you.

    I think people latch onto to Rom 10:9 because it’s easy to remember, it doesn’t involve any big words like justification or reconciliation. But I think they like it most because it puts the “me” factor in. They can activate it just by professing what it says in Rom 10:9. They seem to be more into what they can do about salvation rather than what Christ has already done to saved them. If they did just accept all the He has done, they would just rest in joy of the good news of the gospel and not be concerned about what they confessed or professed. Instead they would simply be certain of their eternal life.

  11. I have a question, I hope you can help me with. In the whole of my christian life, I know I was under a false gospel, and was a psuedo-christian. All the books I read, I was told that christians shouldn’t have acuptuncture and get into homeopathic, or do martial arts or have a massage when you go to places like Bali and Asia, when I could of done with one. I believe that the chinese medicine and practices have energies involved with them and so have avoided them. I was told this morning byy a christian women that I am being too paranoid. Can someone clear me on practices that christians shouldn’t be involved in. Can spirits enter us if you practice martial arts or engage in acupuncture, if say one is experiencing bad migraines, if it brings relief, where the doctors can only ever give you drugs, what are we to do.

    As I am in my early 50’s, I am facing health issues, very high cholesterol of 9, could have a heart attack, I didn’t want to take the statins to lower cholesterol, because they say, its all false that high cholesterol is a myth invented by drug companies to sell drugs, if you get on the internet, the other half of doctors say we don’t need them.

    I find when it comes to the whole health arena, doctors say one thing and naturopaths say another. Its hard to know who to listen to.

  12. Mary, I’ve struggled with this too.

    I think it comes down to whether one has believed in Jesus as his Savior. In other words, ask the question the other way around:

    How picky is God? Would He withhold eternal life if you had failed to publicly confess Christ?

    If the person says yes, then they think God is picky, and that He contradicts myriad other scriptural passages that say that whoever believes in the Lord Jesus Christ is saved.

    The same would be true for water baptism, sacraments, or any other works.

  13. Hi Guys,
    Just wanting your opinion, I heard a sermon the other day and at the end of the sermon the gospel was given, The whole Romans 10.9 if you confess with your mouth. I know you guys have covered this in your difficult passages articles. I was talking to a friend today and we were wondering, how picky is god.

    If we add one thing to the gospel, like Romans 10.9 will god disqualify someone from entering heaven because of one requirement. Its like the glass of water (being the clear gospel of grace) one drop of ink, and it changes the whole gospel. I think I know the answer as I type this, but there is a part of me that says surely god wouldn’t send someone to hell because of one addition like (surrender your life) Oh, but they say we are on the same page as you are, meaning the clear gospel of Eph. 2.8 9, there are now 2 gospels here, is one false and one true.

    These people are just repeating what their pastor told them, or they heard it in a sermon somewhere, they thought this was the gospel. These people will be shocked to hear, from the lords mouth, I never knew you.

    God Bless

  14. Even the turning around and going in a different direction… what about the simple truth, come to Him? I want to just say STOP with all the ‘examples’, just point people to Christ…What about Cornelius who was seeking Him? Should he have ‘turned around and gone in the opposite direction?

  15. Holly, yeah – “lays down arms” makes salvation a trade, not a gift.

  16. John – this article reminded me of David Cloud. He ‘says’ he is not loadship as JMac ‘says’ he believes in grace alone. Yet in his article regarding ‘repentance and lordship revisited’, he has quite an interesting first point. And I wonder what he’d have to say to the beloved disciple John for leaving out ‘repent’ from his entire gospel, yet he says the purpose it is written so that we might believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that in believing we will have life (eternal) through His name (from Jn 20:31).

    Cloud also says you don’t have to repent from ‘all your sins’….
    DAVID CLOUD:
    This is the first ‘point’ on his article:

    1. The error that repentance is wrapped up in faith and does not have to be preached.

    This is exactly what I believe about repentance, nothing more or less. It is not a change of life; it is a change of mind SO RADICAL that it results in a change of life. It means to turn around and go in a different direction. It means to lay down your arms and to surrender to God, to stop being at enmity against Him.

    MY QUESTION: How does a nonbeliever stop being at enmity with God? Is it really by ‘laying down your arms and surrendering’?

  17. Nathan Paul – That is also a great comparison, I must have missed this last time, sorry. Perfect actually to compare us to husband and wife as Ephesians 5 does the same. Hope you are well, haven’t seen you around.

    In Christ, Holly

  18. Love the insight on that Curtis. I think on that very thing. People somehow imagine something and it’s not even true. Reminds me of the people in Romans 1 with their vain imaginations and lack of thankfulness. We are to judge with a righteous judgment and not according the appearance, so strange to think on people judging by feelings, for one thinks sorrow is the key, but they should also look to the happiness and joy of those who believed in Acts, so should they judge themselves by always being happy?

    What about the eunuch? He was pretty staid, so if we aren’t sober-minded enough, then maybe we’re not saved? Feelings are varied among even genders and personalities, some are more sensitive, so what then?”

    I love the Prodigal Son, and that was a good analogy. God bless you and yours Curtis.

  19. Nathan and JR, I’m ‘guessing’ the man is alluding to 1 Pet 2:11-12, which has nothing to do with proving your are saved, but everything to do with exhorting us what to do so we will NOT have that struggle 🙂

    Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
    Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

  20. Feelings have destroyed many a marriage and peoples lives and is one of the main tools the enemy of our souls uses against us . I am simply saved because God said so and it is His will that all believe in his son Jesus who is the Christ that paid our sin debt for eternal life by his shed blood his death burial for three days and rose again according to the scriptures

    1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
    1Jn 2:17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

    I could type many many words on the older son chapter , but better for you to read and study for yourself

    Luk 15:11 Then He said: “A certain man had two sons.

    Luk 15:28 “But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him.

    The older brother had his feelings hurt , one reason he FELT entitled to something because he was a “good boy”

  21. JR –

    I cannot find anywhere in the Bible that we are to experience a “feeling” related to a struggle of the flesh and the Spirit as an assurance of salvation. One analogy that comes to mind for me is within my earthly marriage. Do I need to have certain feelings in my marriage to assure me that I am truly married to my wife. No, I just know that I am married because we are in a covenant relationship that began at a point in time. Honestly, if my marriage was based on “feelings” to hold it together then I would have no assurance that my wife and I are married because feelings ALWAYS come and go. Feelings are rooted in the flesh and can be deceiving. Feelings a very bad way to look for assurance of not only salvation but anything else in life and can psychologically lead a person to deep despair if good feelings are not there.

    **The assurance I read about in the Bible comes from “knowing” that I am saved based on the PROMISES of God.**

    1 John 5:13
    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    The one proof that you are saved is NOT that you feel a battle waging inside you but that you BELIEVE in Jesus Christ alone and “KNOW” you already have salvation!

  22. JR – sure you should mention the name, if the quote is sound Biblically he should have no problem. As John says, the fact that this happens doesn’t mean the flesh does not win out, nor does it mean we even recognize it when our soul is not being nourished, but our fleshly desires are being fed. I think men like to have their quotes and clever statements, rather than just deliver the Word of God, trusting in it’s power.

  23. JR, I think it is LS. The feeling of a battle waging inside of you does not prove that you are saved. Many lost people have battles with their consciences all of the time. I did.

    This teaching would tend to make people feign struggle with sin in order to concoct, or bolster, assurance of salvation.

    In addition, a new believer could not have assurance of salvation UNTIL this tell-tale sign of a feeling of struggle shows up. As in “no struggle, no salvation.”

    This is just a subtle substitute for “no works, no salvation.”

  24. Hello everyone, does this sound LS to you? It is from a supposedly “free grace” preacher’s post on Facebook (Should I mention his name?):

    “One proof that you are saved is that you feel this battle waging inside you. “The flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh” (Gal. 5:17). Lost people don’t have this battle because they are slaves to the flesh and do not have the Holy Spirit.”

  25. See what you think.

  26. Alex, the Word of God is true, and although there seems to be some difficult passages, we have verses like 1 John 5:13, and John 20:31 that tell us why the book of John was written, or in the former verse, that we can KNOW we have eternal life as well. So, go over the verses that tell us we hath (echo) eternal life when we believe, and remember that God is not a man that He should lie. The gift is eternal life (Rom 6:23) which of course is accompanied by the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is God’s will that Jesus will lose none (John 6:39-40, John 10:28-30) that He has given to Him. When we believe, we are given to the Son as a gift. Translated into the Kingdom of His dear Son. Passed from death unto life. I wrote this blog, forgive the bad formatting, it’s mostly Bible verses asking questions like, how do you get un-born again. Or passed back into death, etc. Look up the passages each one, and pray as you read them. God’s Word strengthens our faith (Ps 119:28, Rom 10:17). It’s treasure.

    Eternal Security is God’s Promise to us. The contract He made which included the blessing was a one sided promise, with no conditions except belief. Unconditional. Unilateral. Here it is if you would like to read.

    http://redeemingmoments.com/2014/04/25/1610/

  27. Alex,

    I have a paper on eternal security if you would like it. here are some good verses to ponder.

    John 6:39 – 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day

    John 10:28–29 – And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand

    Eph 1:13-14 – 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise,
    14 Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTILTHEREDEMPTION of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory
    – EARNEST – means “deposit” until we are redeemed

    Jude 1:1 – Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ, and called

    Hebrews 10:14 – 14 For by one offering he hath perfected FOREVER them that are sanctified
    – REMEMBER – the carnal church at Corinth were sanctified – 1 Cor 6:11

    God bless,

  28. Alex, one more thing…

    When “there’s nothing to hang onto but the Word of God”, you are hanging onto the ONLY thing that can give you assurance.

  29. Alex, I don’t know what the term “relational” faith means. I want to make sure that nobody misinterprets that to means that one must desire to have a relationship with Jesus in order to be saved.

    One must believe in Jesus in order to be saved. One can believe facts about Jesus, but still not believe in Him as their only way to have eternal life. This is often a faith versus works issue. It boils down to someone thinking that Jesus is necessary for salvation, but not enough.

    We had an article a while back called “Lordship Salvation’s Demon Belief That Does Not Save.” Following are pertinent excerpts (except for content in parentheses, which was added for clarification).

    Is it possible for a human being to believe that Jesus died, was buried, and rose from the dead and still not have eternal life? The answer to the above questions is a resounding YES. There is a belief that doesn’t save. In fact, there are all kinds of beliefs that don’t save, but not for the reasons that Lordship “salvationists” espouse.

    The Lordship “Salvationist” does not believe that Christ paid the FULL PRICE for our sins, leaving us nothing to pay. He believes that Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection were necessary, but not sufficient. He believes that he must add to Christ’s finished work with his repentance from sin, commitment, or perseverance. In other words, the Lordship “Salvationist” has accepted Jesus as Lord and Helper, not Lord and Savior.

    So, there is belief that does not save. It is belief in a false gospel of Christ plus works for salvation, more commonly known as Lordship “salvation.”

    Can a person believe in Christ alone (for salvation) and not be saved? The answer to this one needs less explanation. The answer is NO.

  30. I think the correct use of “relational” faith is that one must believe in Jesus Christ the Person Himself, not just some facts about Him (Jesus rebuked people for trying to find eternal life from the Bible without coming to Him). One must believe Jesus would save him, not just “Jesus saves sinners”. “Relational” faith is hard for Calvinists because their version of limited atonement don’t allow statements like “Jesus died for your sins”, or “Jesus wants to save you” to be personalized.

    And thanks johnnic for responding to my comment. The possibility of losing salvation is one that I personally struggle, especially when my faith is weak. It is hard sometimes when there seems to be nothing to hang on to beyond the Word of God.

  31. Corinna, no apology necesary!

    I just didn’t have time to go through it in detail.

    Regarding “relational”, I would be wary of anything that suggests one must either desire a “relationship with Christ” or to be a “Christ follower” in order to be saved. Neither is true.

    In order to be saved, one must simply believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as his/her Savior. This means to believe that He is God in the flesh, that He paid the full price for one’s sins, and offers eternal life to anyone who believes that He made that payment for their sins.

  32. John,

    Sorry for not reading the goals. I just feel a bit wary of one of the vision values “Relational” and whether that might be hint of lordship, but I didn’t see anything glaringly false in the doctrinal statement. the relational aspect of the vision seems to sound like compromising or emphasizing on how one lives. I’m not sure either, which is why I ask to see if you have any comments

  33. BeholdaSon, I believe the thing that one should always remember is that the corruptible shall not inherit the incorruptible. Sometimes these warnings are there to remind the incorruptible (believers with a new nature) of their behavior around the corruptible (unbelievers with only a sin nature).

    Col 4:5-6 tells us to walk in wisdom towards them, redeeming the time. We are told how our speech should be seasoned with grace and salt. Titus 3:8 tells us to be careful to maintain works which are beneficial to all. The James 2 warning regards believers and their atrocious behavior towards their own brethren their preference for the rich and prominent and their lip service to those who are hungry and in need.

    The 1 Cor 6 chapter is speaking to those believers who have put up with this sexually immoral character and in fact must not have really cared, because they had not mourned about it. They were defrauding each other, going to court against one another, and instead of judging themselves so that this would not be going on, they took their cases to the world to judge. Paul’s reminder is that the unrighteous will not inherit heaven. Christ is the end of righteousness for those of us who have believed (Rom 10:4 abbr) I believe all these warnings are to tell the believers, you need to straighten up and fly right. This is a matter of life and death. Don’t you know that they aren’t going to see heaven if they watch your example, what is different?

    When we were born again, it was by the incorruptible seed which is the Word of God. Our inheritance is reserved in heaven for us. However, flesh like the flowers and the grass is corruptible. It will pass away. His Word will not. We are a done deal, but our behavior affects the eternal outcome of others…. May it not be so…

  34. Preston, I agree. Anyone teaching the gospel will face opposition.

  35. Again, IF that is true (what I had heard) then YES. exactly the same thing.

    who is to say that a born again sodomite cant be used by God to go into a homosexual church and preach the gospel (or any place else for that matter). With what I have “dealt” with, the “sodomite” preaching the gospel will probably take a beating for preaching the simple message.

    In fact, God gave me the opportunity to preach the gospel to a homosexual a week or so ago. Hope he believed/trusted it.
    – I never ask the person if they have believed it after talking to them because I think it puts pressure on them to agree with me. I usually end with “so the choice is yours, it is your decision to trust in the gospel or not”. “I really hope that you will and join me in heaven one day”.

  36. Preston, interesting commentary on homosexual LS. Isn’t that the nature of LS in general – excuse your own sins and insist that others give up their sins to become saved, stay saved, or show evidence of salvation?

  37. Preston, thanks for your detailed analysis of the Gatians passage.

    We also often see Jesus using the law to convince people that they are disqualified from heaven on their own merits/demerits.

  38. As for sodomites –
    1. James says when we commit one sin; we have committed them all.
    2. That were are saved by grace so that no man can boast (Eph 2:8-9 and Romans 3:24-28) (see God, I am not a sodomite like that guy over there)
    3. that ALL sins are forgiven (Acts 13:39 and col 2:13-14)

    Are there consequences for the sinfulness of the born again believer? YES but hell is never one of them. IF we say someone has to keep “one law” to go to heaven; we have mistakenly preached “another gospel”

    As Paul said to the carnal but saved church at Corinth – (he preached to them the gospel earlier in Acts – then “later” wrote the letter)
    – 1 Cor 2:2 For I determined NOT to know ANYTHING among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified

    He didnt care to know anything about them but the gospel. LATER he wrote to them what they “should” be doing.

    NOTE – as for “gay” churches, I have ONLY heard (cant confirm). They deny homosexuality is a sin (it is a sin), BUT many add something to the gospel in those churches as well—
    – being gay is not a sin BUT you cant “do” these list of sins—–which is rubbish.

  39. Good day,

    yes 1 Cor 6 is a bit easier to see.

    Galations 5 is much harder.

    First, what was the purpose of the book? It was to convey the message that the law is not required for salvation, it fact, it frustrates grace (frustrate means to set aside; to nullify). Gal 2:21.

    When you look at these 5 verses alone, it tells you that one must “not do” these things. That would bring the law into salvation; which contradicts the WHOLE book of Galations.

    So whats being said by Paul here. its about context.

    Paul is a bit “fired up”. He writes a letter to the saved church at Galatia. What had happened? Someone “bewitched” them by telling them they must keep the law to be saved. Someone came in and preached “another gospel”. They were believing it (the other gospel).
    – this is key – his audience are SAVED people going back under the law
    – he writes the entire book telling them “no law” for salvation

    He then tells them the list. look at the word “strife”. Who “strifes”??? EVERYONE
    – got kids??? got a spouse??? got a boss??? an annoying co-worker???

    Basically saying – if people who do these things do not go to heaven, why are you trusting in the law, you do these things (he was convicting them because everyone does “something” on that list to some degree or another).
    – and not just strife BUT things “such the like”.

    THEN after the list he tells them that “they” (those that bewitched them with another gospel) cant keep the law either. Gal 6:13 – For NEITHER THEY themselves who are circumcised KEEP THE LAW; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh

    Was the church at Corinth saved? were they “strife-ing”?(striving??) YES – 1 Cor 3:3 – For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and STRIFE, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
    – HMMM – strife BUT saved.

    When you talk to an unsaved person, one should bring up the law to show them they are sinners. Paul did that “remember I told you these things”. When you are talking to a “law keeper” for salvation, one should do the same thing -use the law to convict them no matter how hard they try; the CANT keep it perfectly. – I believe this is what Paul was doing in this letter to galatia. Convicting those who were going back under the law that the law cant save them—because those that do these things cannot inherit the kingdom of God (meaning – you better be “under grace)

    1 COR 6 (SIMPLY PUT)

    And such were some of you: BUT…..(stop here). BUT tells us there is something different about them. It does NOT read…
    1. BUT ye stopped doing these things
    2. BUT ye dont do these things as much.

    it DOES read…but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God
    – see, this is what was different about them (but).

    next verse – All things are lawful unto me….
    – this would be “contradictory” to “the list”.

    hope this helped and hope I wasnt all over the place.

  40. Beholdason, see the reference to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 under our “Difficult Verses” section. I think this will help with your question on Galatians 5:19-21.

    Regarding other people’s sinful behavior – I think you answered your own question. We are all sinners. Church discipline is necessary in certain cases.

  41. Can someone shed some light on the “If you’re practising sin you’re not saved”.

    In Galatians 5:19-21 it’s quite scary.

    In particular the “as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

    Who is this referring to?

    Also, I’m noticing quite a sodomy movement emerging within contemporary evangelicalism. People who practice such things calling themselves Christians yet denying that their behaviour is sinful. Any thoughts on that?

    I am struggling to be fair towards all Christians who sin (myself included as we’re all in the same pot) but then I’m confused when I meet Christians who are sodomites proclaiming God’s goodness.

    Can someone help me out here?

  42. Corinna, see “Goals” at the top of our website. Do you have specific concerns about this church’s statement of beliefs?

  43. Hi Admins,

    What do you think about this church’s teaching? Any input would be highly appreciated.

    (Link removed by administrator)

    Thank you and God bless

  44. Genevieve,

    The email address we have on file for you is failing with a permanent error as if you had cancelled it.

    Please advise us of your new email address – using our private ExP email facility.

    We continue to pray for you in your distress.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  45. Genevieve, I am continuing to pray for you and your family. I have prayed that the Lord would give you wisdom and courage in witnessing to your family, and that He would deliver you through whatever trials you may be undergoing today.

  46. John John,

    Thanks and we appreciate your participation in ExPreacherMan.com.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  47. Curtis M,

    Love that Psalm, especially in its declaration of who God IS…steadfast Love!

  48. Johninnc and Jack,

    I agree with your comments re: BELIEVE. Thank you for this forum!

  49. BeholdASon,

    We have removed your email address for your own security and privacy.

    We do not reveal email addresses of our friends because there are thousands of crooked folks who scan web sites (including ExP) trying to find email addresses. Unscrupulous folks will use your email address to intimidate, frighten and threaten you. You do not want to advertise to the whole world your email address; and ExP covers the whole world.

    We are not sure how handle this for you without incurring some possible liability and potential trouble for you, your friends and ExP.

    We will discuss it and get back to you. Thanks for your understanding.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  50. psalm 107 over and over saved from distress

    the redeemed of the LORD
    Let the redeemed of the LORD say so
    Psa 107:1 O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    Psa 107:2 Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;

    Then they cried unto the LORD
    delivered them out of their distresses.
    Psa 107:5 Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them.
    Psa 107:6 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses.
    Psa 107:7 And he led them forth by the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation.

    Lord Notice capital L then lower case . If would be all capital letters then that would mean Jehovah. This is why we should study for growth from the KJV the NKJV , NASB missed that most all other translations have it right I dint check them all

    Lord
    Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

  51. {{Email address removed by Admin}}
    🙂

  52. Thank you Johnnic for re-directing me to the links which explained Luke 3 regarding John the Baptist’s statements. Yes you are right, I do need to be careful who I listen to in the future, which pastors and teachers. Most of my Christian life I had been listening to LS preachers without knowing it and I am having to un-learn much of the doctrine I had learnt previously with LS glasses, and now I have to take off the LS glasses and put on free-grace glasses to understand so much of the Bible including the parable of the Sower, the vine/branches in John 15 and many other things. The LORD is teaching me the correct Biblical doctrine and right interpretation of Scriptures through ministries such as Expreacherman, Tom Cucuzza and Ralph Arnold etc. We thank God for your instruction and correction.

    I also agree with Jack regarding ‘call upon the Lord and be saved’ as he explains above. I have had Christian friends who have concluded that their un-saved dying family member ‘cried out to God in his death bed’ so they must have gone to heaven. I am not so sure about that: what did they cry about? Did they understand that Jesus took their punishment upon Himself and went to cross to shed His precious blood to cleanse them from their sin? Did they put their faith in the finished work of Christ ALONE abandoning all notions of self-merit and self-righteousness? Anything less than understanding the full content of the Gospel will just be ‘cross-less gospel’ that can NOT save.
    If this sounds like ‘splitting theological hairs’ then so be it, it is a matter of heaven and hell, of eternal life and death. God cares about DOCTRINE AND IS A STICKLER FOR TRUTH.

  53. can i have yr email, Rina Mary, coming to Melbourne today will try and contact by email or phone at this stage.

  54. John John,

    Thanks for your impassioned testimonial comment.

    It is important that we understand that the calling upon the name of the Lord in Romans 10:13, in context, is clearly not a verse instructing us in how to obtain the gift of eternal life:

    “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    Why? Because in this context, only those who already believe in Christ can “call upon the name of the Lord.”

    Let us examine the next verse, Romans 10:14:

    How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

    As Johninnc said, and we affirm over and over, Belief in Jesus is the only way to eternal life.. It is our understanding that calling upon Him for deliverance (save) from day to day perils and problems is a privilege reserved only for believers in Jesus Christ — not for unbelievers. We look carefully and note that verse 14 speaks in reverse order; ** There is one who preaches to them the gospel, ** They hear and then ** They believe — which enables them now to “call upon the name of the Lord.”

    We pray this helps.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  55. Thank You for the reminder John John
    I know what you mean from getting to know you on the blog . Just everything needs clarification these days when it comes to the Gospel

  56. John John, Christ is the only name under heaven whereby we may be saved.

    And salvation is by grace through faith in Christ.

    Some people may cry out/call upon His name. But, it is belief in Christ through which we receive eternal life.

  57. Thanks be to God that His salvation in Christ is durable and true and resilient! We come to Him—not innocent, but clueless—and He daringly saves us right in the midst of this nightmare world of sin. It seems we are all progressively “unlearning” all manner of false teaching that came to us in the form of “plausible arguments” (see: Colossians).

    I contend that none of this stops His saving work, provided we cried out to/called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the only Name under heaven whereby we may be saved! “Does He who planted the ear not hear?”

    Full understanding is impossible for the helpless sinner. Thus the simplicity of the Good News!

    Bless you all today,
    John John

  58. Hi Mary,

    My husband and I walked away from institutional Christianity about 6 months ago. We continue to meet with Christian friends regularly in our home as they did in the first century. (Philemon 1:2) 🙂

    I am thankful for this website too. 🙂

    It has reminded me that I am absolutely unable to contribute anything to my salvation (O wretched man that I am! – LOVE Paul) and to put down the books written by wolves and pick up the only book worth all my energy.

    You are not alone. Those with discernment walk away as they hear His voice leading them along the narrow path.

    God is awesome.

  59. Good day,

    the “key” to the Matt 3 is in verse 9.

    And THINK NOT to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

    We clearly see that they were “thinking” the wrong thing. They thought, that just because they were jewish (from Abrahams seed) that they were ok. They needed to think differently, they needed to “repent”.

    the key in Luke 3 is in verse 8.

    Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin NOT TO SAY WITHIN YOURSELVES, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham

    again, we see the same problem. their THINKING (saying WITHIN themselves) was WRONG (same Abraham was their father so they were ok-same account as Matt). They needed to think DIFFERENTLY (or change their minds). They needed to repent.

    REPENT in the context of those 2 passages means “to think differently; to change your mind”. The verses around that passages tells us that these people were thinking the wrong thing (think not; don’t say within yourselves).

    hope this helped clear up those passages.

    God bless,

  60. Hi Beholdason,
    Alice and i were just wondering are you churchless as we are. Its so hard to find the like minded christians, we feel like the Elijahs of the day, who didn’t bow the knee. We are so grateful to expreacherman site, where we can connect with others here.

  61. Genevieve Jenks

    & also you Jack, thanks

  62. Genevieve Jenks

    Thanks Behoaldsson & John for your prayers

  63. Alice, be careful what you listen to. Most pastors out there do not understand repentance or the gospel.

  64. ALice, great questions. John the Baptist asked the Pharisees to bring forth fruit worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:7-9). In Luke 3, each of the groups you mentioned were asking John the Baptist for instruction in righteousness. That’s why they asked “what shall we do then?” If good works automatically follow salvation, they wouldn’t have needed to ask John what to do. If good works are required for salvation (such as giving away clothing and food), then the Bible contradicts itself and cannot be the Word of God. Notice that being content with one’s wages is impossible to observe.

    See link below for a discussion of this topic:

    https://expreacherman.com/2014/01/17/questions-from-the-mailbag-on-grace-vs-lordship-salvation-part-iii/#comment-23851

    We also have a discussion of Luke 3:8 under our “Difficult Verses” section.

  65. I recently heard a sermon that has put a spanner in my understanding of LS: having to give ‘evidence’ of my salvation by my ‘works’. In Matthew:3:8 John the Baptist tells the Pharisees and Sadducees: ‘Bring forth fruit worthy of repentance……God us able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham’. Tom Cucuzza explains that the word ‘REPENTANCE’ means to change one’s mind (not turn from your sin). So the Jews had to change their minds about Jesus of Nazareth being the Messiah (not just any ordinary man), that He is the promised Saviour Who will pay for our sins and save us from our sin, the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world. They shouldn’t rely on the Jewish heritage as children of Abraham to get them to heaven.
    Well, in Luke’s passage in Luke:3: 7-14 John the Baptist addresses 3 groups of people:
    1).The People (3:10) and when they ask him ‘what shall we do then?’, he tells them to give clothing and food to those in need.
    2). The Publicans: (3:12) he tells the tax collectors not to exact more than that is appointed unto them.
    3). The Soldiers: (3:14) he tells them not to do violence, or accuse falsely and be content with their wages.
    The pastor went on to say that ‘bearing fruit worthy of repentance’ means we have to ‘give evidence’ by our works. In the context of the entire passage in Luke 3: 7-14 it appears that ‘turning from sin’ and doing ‘good works’ are a necessary part of ‘repentance’ and the pastor preached that ‘repentance means turning from sin, (not just changing mind).
    Can someone explain the context to me as Luke adds ‘works’ for repentance but Matthew doesn’t in Matt: 3:8-10.

  66. Genevieve,

    Rest assured, we will be praying for you and all your family.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  67. “What’s ironic in that case is that it is precisely the false belief in LS “perseverance” that kills the person’s faith.”

    Couldn’t agree more Alex.

    To God be the glory.

    Genevieve, praying for your husband and daughter.

  68. Genevieve, I will definitely continue to pray for you and your family.

  69. Genevieve, I have prayed for you and your family.

  70. Could everyone please pray for my husband & daughters.For believers to be sent to them & also for my daughters to be interested in His Word & for my husbands eyes to be opened when he is reading His Word.Also pray for circumstances to intervene so they will seek God.Also pray for my husband to be led away from lordship teachings & my daughters to be protected from it.I’ll be praying for wisdom & love for all of you.Thanks

  71. Nice Alex
    Yep its real easy to FEEL like need to earn salvation , living by Grace Through Faith is a tad bit uncomfortable being outside the open prison door unfettered

  72. Alex, very well said.

  73. I would even say that it is only possible to truly persevere (believe on Christ till the end) no matter what happen when we truly believe that Christ does all the saving and there is nothing we may contribute to our salvation. See. If we even believe there is one bit that we must contribute, we will always fear that life may take that one bit from us so that we would lose salvation (or prove that we were not saved to begin with). There is much fear in LS and much rest in trusting in Christ alone.

  74. Alex, I think scripture says that soil 2 believers have believed unto eternal life (they believe and sprout), so I think they are eternally secure Christians.

    However, I do think that soil 2 believers include people who have trusted in Christ as Savior, who then fall for LS.

  75. I don’t completely disagree with your interpretation of the parable of the soil. I believe the shallow soil can also represent people who believed wrong (not a “wrong kind” of faith as LS says but have the content of the gospel wrong): A person can lose heart and stop believing when temptations hit hard if he believes some kind of “perseverance” in works (include not sinning) is required for salvation. What’s ironic in that case is that it is precisely the false belief in LS “perseverance” that kills the person’s faith.

  76. Hi Mary,

    Jack/John were given the email in my previous comment. I asked them to forward it on to you. 🙂 (thanks guys)

    Let me know your Melb details, it would be great to meet up if time permits!

  77. Hi Beholdason, Coming to Melbourne this week. Can u forward me yr email. Thanks.

  78. Hi Mary

    “Hi Beholdason,
    I see you live in Melbourne, Australia, good to see another here in Aussie land, if you are happy to, can u give jack or john my email. I am from Adelaide.”

    Absolutely! 🙂

    The other day I actually wondered if it was possible to get your email (and Alice’s). I’m glad you were thinking the same thing. 🙂

    I also see you guys have dealings with Herald of Hope. I’m having similar issues with an IB publisher in QLD and their warped Gospel on their John Romans booklets. So so sad.

    I know of a Mary in Adelaide. I’m wondering if you’re the same one! haha.

  79. Curtis, I am in much agreement about the importance of speaking to the Lord before and during the time we approach His Word. Trusting in Him with all our heart, and leaning not unto our own understanding, well, it has a lot of ‘un-learning’ involved as the churches, so many out there have twisted the truth.

    They have added works to the gospel, no matter how they try to explain it away, it is an accursed gospel, and will produce bad fruit….

    God bless and help us all, to always acknowledge Him in everything, and to study with His approval always at the forefront of what we are doing. To meditate (I like one of the meanings of that word, roar, as a lion roars over it’s prey), makes me think of guarding what we understand to be our necessary food. Anyways, God bless you all this week.

  80. Good explanation John, and as you said it is their doctrine of works that they justify themselves by.

    Right Preston, good notation too, the other passage as well identifies the doctrine they speak. Many take that to mean they speak things that makes them easy to identify, lewdness, etc. People take perverted to mean the way we see it as perversion vs. speaking something that is not right, nor true.

    These wolves in sheep’s clothing turn people from the truth, they are subtle and corrupt minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    Thank you all for your Biblical explanations 🙂

  81. Alice – thanks for bringing that up about Yankee and the pen. Yes, that is exactly what they want, ‘hard-believism’. He has a book that states it, and on my site, I examined just one of his gospel sermons in part, and that is ALL he teaches, and I can state unequivocally, if he says he’s done even a portion of what he states is NECESSARY in order to be saved, he is just like satan and wants to make himself a god. Men cannot save themselves. They keep trying to mimic other religions and get to heaven by works.

  82. from studying the Truth of The Gospel .
    what is NOT said about the Gospel is as important as what is said .

    It is so very important to study The Gospel asking God for Wisdom and understanding

    any other gospel
    any other gospel
    Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    If any man shall add unto these things
    if any man shall take away from the words
    Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

  83. Might I add –

    Luke 6:43-45 – 43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

    45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart HIS MOUTH SPEAKETH

    They are only 2 ways to discern a false prophet (teacher).
    1. If he prophecies and says something will come to pass and it does NOT (Duet).
    2. The words that comes out of His mouth.

    FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT – love, joy peace, patience, kindness longsuffering, etc

    Can a false prophet; teacher show THESE fruits? YES
    1. Matt 15 – false prophets are OUTWARDLY sheep…
    2. 2Cor 11 – false apostles transforming themselves into the ministers of righteousness
    3. 2 cor 11 – satan transforms himself into an angel of light.

    ALL showing fruits of the spirit. IF that’s they case, then false prophets are fruit bearers???????

    FRUIT in that passage is doctrine producing converts (fruit) False prophets will produce NONE because their message is wrong (what comes out of their mouths – luke 6)

  84. Welcome JP , good thoughtful question

  85. Princess, welcome and thanks for your question.

    The fruits mentioned in Matthew 7:16-18 are not the same as the fruit of the Spirt mentioned in Galatians 5.

    Following is an excerpt from our “Difficult Verses” section that addresses this issue:

    [16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    Question: Does Matthew 7:16 mean that you can tell real Christians by the way they act?

    Answer: No. Matthew 7:16 refers to false prophets. Their “fruits” are not their behavior. Their fruits are their words, and the words of their “converts.”

    Matthew 23:15: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

    If you read on to Matthew 7:18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    This is absolute. A good tree (the new man, born of God) CANNOT bring forth evil fruit. Similarly, 1 John 3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Again, the new man does not commit ANY sin.

    But, a Christian’s behavior is both good and bad (being short of perfect). Therefore, “fruit” in Matthew 7:16 cannot possibly refer to behavior.

  86. Jesus' Princess

    I’m sorry if someone has mentioned this already. I have a reading disability and don’t see everything. What do you think of these verses for looking for evidence? “Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” Matthew 7:16-18 Shouldn’t we be looking for good fruit such as fruit of the spirit to know who are our brothers and sister in Christ?

  87. Hi Beholdason,
    I see you live in Melbourne, Australia, good to see another here in Aussie land, if you are happy to, can u give jack or john my email. I am from Adelaide.

  88. Holly, as you know John MacArthur says mere ‘intellectual assent’ to the facts of the Gospel is EASY BELIEVISM and any thing other than TOTAL UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER TO CHRIST is NOT QUALIFIED AS SAVING FAITH.
    Ralph Arnold in his youtube video,pulls out a pen from his pocket and asks ‘is it easy to believe this is a pen? what do you want? Hard-believism?’.

  89. I am so curious with men like Mr. “J”, who we know that the false prophets had plenty of good works, so they would be fooled into believing they were saved. They called Him Lord, Lord also…. The demons have also Jesus as their Lord, He is Lord over all, even His enemies. However He is not their Saviour. Intellectual assent…. that drives me crazy too, what other kind of assent would they prefer?

    If you have intellectual assent to the gospel, this is what the statement means to me (vs. what Loadshipper John MacArthur or Paul Washer REALLY mean with that statement.

    Intellectual assent to the gospel: The truth has engaged our intellect, vs. being guided or relying on emotions or feelings. We agree, we have believed, and we concur with the truth of the gospel on our behalf.

    These men have not intellectually assented to the truth of God’s Word. They have not believed that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, but they have not intellectually assented to the truth and therefore THEY are relying on men’s wisdom of words, their own feelings, and guided by emotion rather than rational thinking. The Scriptures have not made them wise unto salvation. That’s my take on it….

    No one can mentally or intellectually ‘assent’ to the facts of the gospel which includes the ‘whole world’ without being saved. You either believe it all, or you believe part, and are not saved. They have believed part, and padded the rest with their own declarations of what one must do.

    They are not as intellectual as they purport to be.

  90. Curtis, sure. It is within the doctrinal statement of Clear Gospel, section 3 d:
    http://old.cleargospel.org/statement.php?label=doctrinal&c_id=347

  91. Johninc could you post the link to the Ron Shea quote I’m not able to find it and would like to read the whole context or email me the link

    Thanks
    Curtis

  92. Such a great post. I spend a good hour yesterday with an elder at our old church discussing LS. He was unable to give me any assurance that I have enough good works to validate my simple belief in Jesus. I told him that it didn’t matter as what Jesus did for me was sufficient. I told him that LS is heresy and he needs to pray that God will open his eyes to its error.

    I love this website. God is good

  93. I hear you Frying pan what they are doing with “intellectual assent” is attempting to define what it means to believe and that simple child like faith is not enough.
    they are loading the language and trying to hook a soul on their doctrine of belief apart from biblical belief trying to be to smart for simple.

    denying child like faith should get on ones nerves

  94. Amen, Curtis.

    Run, Forrest, Run!

    That whole “intellectual assent” things gets on my nerves like nobody’s business . . .

  95. very good thought provoking post Alice and the follow up quote from Johninc causes me to think on these things

    Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
    Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

  96. “the question for Mr. J is this: can someone who believes in Jesus as his Savior get into heaven without doing a single good work or changing his behavior in any way?

    If Mr. J says yes, then he needs to quit telling people otherwise.

    If he says no, then he doesn’t “simply believe” the gospel at all.”

    warning this IS NOT the gospel but another gospel to trouble you
    “HOW CAN I BE SAVED?
    First God convicts me of my sin.
    Second there must be repentance toward God.
    Then there must be simple faith in Jesus Christ. The Bible says:”

    According to the presentation of the gospel from that publication website Mr. J will probably say NO or he will say Yes and then say works are evidence of salvation or a faith that works so Run forest Run and stop reading that publication of course the demons believe and tremble they have been judged and the lake of fire awaits their eternal judgement and they know it and their is NO escape from it.

    This is THE Gospel here https://expreacherman.com/eternal-life-for-you/

  97. Alice, the question for Mr. J is this: can someone who believes in Jesus as his Savior get into heaven without doing a single good work or changing his behavior in any way?

    If Mr. J says yes, then he needs to quit telling people otherwise.

    If he says no, then he doesn’t “simply believe” the gospel at all.

    Mr. J’s. false teaching is likely to confuse unsaved people with the insistence that works WILL accompany faith in Christ. He is giving the impression that salvation is about allowing Jesus to change one’s life, with the consequence of being able to observe a change. This teaches, by implication, that one is justified BY WORKS, in which justification is a process by which our lives our transformed. This is, by definition, the doctrine of justification by works. (note: I borrowed heavily from the below quote from Ron Shea on the “Christian Testimony”):

    In contrast to the testimony of Paul, we note that the predominant “testimony” in the church today is that “Jesus Christ changed my life.” We acknowledge that there are many truths of the Christian faith to which a believer can bear witness, including the deliverance from trials, temptations, sin and despair, and the deliverance unto hope, meaning, and purpose. However, we believe that, when these matters become the focus of a “conversion” testimony, such a testimony is misleading, and therefore counter productive in pointing men and women to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. It implies that salvation is allowing Jesus to change one’s life, with the consequence of observing a change. We believe that this teaches, by implication, the doctrines of Lordship salvation and justification by works, wherein justification is a process by which our lives are transformed. This is, by definition, the doctrine of Justification by works. We believe that such “testimonies” have become a cancer on the church.

  98. Holly, Johninnc, Curtis, Jack and others,
    Thank you all for your encouraging comments which are thought-provoking.
    I am afraid Mr.J in his newsletter ‘The Herald of Hope’ (an Australian Bible Prophecy bi-monthly magazine widely circulated in Baptist churches in Australia) says concerning James 2:19 that simply believing the ‘facts’ of the Gospel without having a saving trust in the Lord Jesus is only an ‘intellectual’ belief just like the demons (even the demons believe).
    I agree that there are people who know and understand the ‘facts’ about Jesus without actually putting their trust IN HIM FOR THEIR SALVATION, so I would conclude that they are NOT SAVED. But Mr.J goes on to say that ‘if there are NO GOOD WORKS, then it is NOT SAVING FAITH’. Mr. J fails to understand that it is possible to have trusting faith in the facts of the Gospel (the 3 P’s) ie the PERSON, the PROVISION OF SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT, AND THE PROMISE OF LORD JESUS (John 5:24) for my salvation without actually having to prove or give evidence of my faith by my ‘GOOD WORKS’.
    Mr.J then elaborates his argument saying that both Abraham and Rahab did ‘good works’ to prove their salvation, (not as Tom Cucuzza says that they were putting their faith in to action, ie justification before MEN, NOT GOD). My question is: do you think God is ‘very picky and specific, dotting the ‘i’s and crossing the ‘t’s, concerning this matter? This seems so close to the truth but still a counterfeit gospel that damns people to hell.

  99. Alice, Mr. J. must not have read the whole book, where these people who are being chastised for their behavior, bad works, wrath, showing preference, etc., are also identified by the author who is inspired by the Holy Spirit as knowing all things, as beloved brethren a couple times, as having been ‘begat by the word of truth, a firstfruits of his creatures (born-again), brothers, my brethren etc.

    These are believers who are being chastised for not being a good witness before men, and their faith is useless because they are not being careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), nor are they loving others as themselves (2nd greatest commandment) or even loving God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength (because they are not feeding His sheep), 1st greatest commandment. Yet they are believers with works that are worthless, or bad.

    This is not about whether they are justified before God as so many lordship people teach, (whether they are saved or not) because God saw fit to already identify them as His. So this is about their justification before men. Abraham was not justified (as in eternal life) when he offered up Isaac, he had already been preached the gospel in 12:3 (see also Gal 3:8), and he believed God, for he did what God said. And in Gen 15:6 (his belief is noted as being counted to him for righteousness), so offering up Isaac in Gen 22 had nothing to do with proving whether or not he was a believer.

    Men need to learn to rightly divide God’s Word and really spend time to see if what they themselves are teaching is true. Have they no fear? No trembling? No love for God’s Word…?

    Thank you for standing for the truth! In Christ’s love to you.

  100. Mary Alice and All
    God is drawing a people unto himself to stand up for The Truth of THE Gospel and is granting soul’s the privilege to be a part of it by prayer and precipitation. It is all His work working through us together.
    I hope to be around as well to continue to see soul’s set free and grasp a hold of their assurance of eternal life through the finished work of Christ Jesus.

    I know my way around the internet and can obsess over something with the best of them. There is very very few places like expreacherman and on blog roll of expreacherman on the internet BUT God is able to do above what we ask or think.

  101. You are on it William
    what I have done is drop the calvanist /LS and just lump it all into works for salvation or evidence of salvation (eternal life)
    I myself caught a back door works for evidence ministry I was sitting under.

    I found when I bring up LS or calvanism the walls go up , so I focus on Jesus and His Finished work .

    also when you got to a website were they want to sell you a book so you can understand the gospel , that’s a big flag right there.

  102. sam”
    I appreciate how you and others just clear up the garbage”

    Amen Sam Nothing so impressive as simplicity

    that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom
    2Co_1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

    simplicity that is in Christ.
    2Co_11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

  103. I wanted to comment on:

    “Soil number 2 in the parable of the Sower

    Luke 8:13: They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

    The Bible CLEARLY and unambiguously says these people believed. As such, they have passed from death unto life (John 5:24).

    This is is not good enough for the unflinching LSer. No. The lack of perseverance of people represented by soil number 2 convinces the LSer that such people were never saved.

    Consider the following quote from J.D. Greear, pastor of the multi-campus Summit Church in Raleigh, North Carolina:

    They remain in the church for a period of time. But, they do not endure when the sun of persecution comes out and will not in the end be saved.”

    Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists only see Luke 8:8 and Luke 8:15 as the “truly saved” and in their minds Luke 8:8 and 8:15 are the “chosen elect few”. They are quick to dismiss and write off Luke 8:6-7 and Luke 8:13-14 as “unsaved false professors”. They believe that “regeneration precedes faith” and that God infuses the gift of “faith” on an unregenerate person enabling him/her to believe. This is based upon a faulty interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9 where the Calvinist reads his faulty theology into the text. According to Calvinism, the “faith” that God infuses is “perfect” in nature and it then logically follows that that faith will not fail to result in commitment, obedience, and perseverance in the person. If these qualities are not seen in a Christian, then this person is deemed “unsaved” according to Calvinism. The problem with the Calvinist “gift of faith” view is that it nullifies man’s free will and man’s responsibility to BELIEVE the gospel.

  104. Kenneth

    Good to see you again.. we appreciate your discerning comments.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  105. Kenneth Groenewald

    Yes John, I was just saying to Jack that I was not aware of the magnitude and the extent of this heresy when I first was made aware of this heresy three years ago. That is why Jesus said “for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction” Matt 7:13. Then in verse 14 Jesus says “strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT. (Caps mine)

  106. William, I am a little perplexed by this part of the quote:

    Now, I do not mean normal self-examination (2 Cor. 13:5). I mean the sort that goes too far.

    This verse is not about looking to your works, attitudes, etc. to confirm that you are a believer. The context is as follows:

    The Corinthians are seeking proof that Christ is speaking in Paul (verse 3). Paul tells them that the proof is that they are in Christ. In other words, they became Christians through believing the gospel that Paul taught. Therefore, the proof that Christ was speaking through Paul is that these people were Christians.

    In verse 6, Paul says “But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.”

    Notice that Paul includes himself.

    So, this self-examination was in the context of defending Paul’s authority.

    There is not such thing as “normal” self-examination outside of this context.

    See further comment under “Difficult Verses.”

  107. Many Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists are so stuck on looking for evidence while denying proof from the Bible that they have little or no assurance of “their” salvation. Many are just plagued with chronic self-introspection. John Piper and RC Sproul are among the biggest names in Calvinism/Lordship Salvation who have frequently expressed concern over whether or not they are among the “chosen elect few”.
    That is, they have to wait until the very end AFTER they die to find out whether or not “they made it into the Kingdom” based upon how well they “persevered” in this life. “Their” assurance is in a constant state of fluctuation. True Biblical doctrine teaches that a person has the assurance that they are eternally saved before they die – John 5:24, 6:47, 10:28-29, Romans 8:38-39, 2 Timothy 2:13.
    A person does not wait until AFTER they die to find out whether or not they are saved which is what Calvinism/Lordship ridiculously teaches.

    Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists are often so plagued with self-introspection that they themselves even warn about it. In the book, “The Five Points of Calvinism” by by Steele, Thomas, and Quinn they state on page 195:

    ” Another odd pitfall that characterizes some Calvinists is chronic introspection. Now, I do not mean normal self-examination (2Cor. 13:5). I mean the sort that goes too far. This sort seems to glory in introspection with the proper results. What do I mean? True self-examination should lead to renewed faith and love and obedience. False introspection leads to more introspection, and actually less faith. It produces more doubt, not faith. For example, some worry that they might not be among the elect. But this does not lead them to put faith in Christ. If that is the result, then it is not true self-examination.”

  108. Preston theologians make the simple complicated.I appreciate how you and others just clear up the garbage that the works salvationist add on.I guess they just cant accept grace for what it is.They might as well just join up with catholic church and quit pretending they believe in Grace thru Faith.

  109. Mary and Alice,

    Thanks for your prayers for my health..

    Don’t worry, when the Lord decides to take me home ExP will be OK — and, happily, I will be granted a new incorruptible body. The Lord, looking forward, raised up John, our co-Administrator who is now doing most of the work at ExP. The Lord has also brought many other discerning friends who comment here regularly. And now you two from Australia are here to continue building this Oasis of Grace Fellowship.

    We appreciate you and all of our ExP friends who have decided to, “earnestly contend for the Faith which was once delivered unto the Saints…” (Jude 1:3).

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  110. Mary, LS goes way back – probably to the Judaizers insisting that one must be circumcised in order to be saved.

    More recently, Calvinism/LS seem to draw from Catholicism. See the quote below from Clear Gospel Campaign:

    “Bilateral contract salvation” and the “Perseverance of the Saints” are two separate but interrelated doctrines within a complex theological system of salvation by works, which relies, at its core, on redefining the word “grace” as some sort of mystical empowering substance. This theological system is set forth in Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, Part 1 of the Second Part, Questions 109-114, “Treatise of Grace,” a 12th century manifesto of Roman Catholic Theology. In Protestantism, it is known as “Reformed Theology” or “Calvinism”.

  111. Religion’s ,ism’s, ist’s, ite’s, works for salvation (eternal life)
    “when thinking you are better than everyone else just isn’t enough.”

  112. Mary wrote :
    “when the whole Lordship Salvation?”

    we could say one of the first symptoms a LS or works for salvation’s was in the garden of Eden when “they” sewed fig leaves together to cover up knowing they done wrong it was a work trying to take care of their own sin because of what they did . The cause of works for salvation is rooted in Pride.

    they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

    Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

    works for salvation has roots in pride and still looking for respect

    his offering he had not respect
    Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

    Cain knew to do what was right and didn’t do it.
    what was Cains motivation?
    to be accepted before God on his terms

    If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
    Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

    results of spiritual pride
    how many souls we have seen tormented and spiritually slain over this ?
    walking dead souls toward God and yet they think they are ok because of what they DO to be accepted before God

    that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
    Gen_4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

    thought to ponder
    what did Abel do and how did he know what was right for acceptance before God ?

  113. Mary,

    This might be too simple of an answer but…..it started immediately. see Galations and Acts 15. Heck, the author of Galations persecuted the church (Paul; Saul)

    Paul wrote in 2 Cor 11:3-4 – …..he that preaches another Jesus or another gospel…ye might bear with him.

    it started as soon as the gospel was preached. IMHO

  114. Dear Jack,
    Thank you so much for your encouragement and instruction in the FREE GRACE GOSPEL. You have been such a blessing to us here in Australia where we can’t find a Grace church anywhere close to where we live. So we have been visiting your website to get fellowship, doctrine and wonderful teaching from you and all the other contributors. We thank our Heavenly Father for raising you up for such a time as this, to re-direct our focus on the finished work of Christ alone for salvation instead of looking at our own performance/evidence/ perseverance in order to be ‘assured of salvation’ which is never really reassuring at all.

    We pray for your health and plead with the LORD to keep you going until He comes to take us home as we desperately need your teaching and instruction in the Word of God, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. We have had to ‘unlearn’ much of the Bible that has been taught to us previously under LS and now have come to the correct understanding of the Scripture. May the LORD bless you for all that you are doing to alert us to the false plans of salvation.
    Kind regards, Alice.

  115. Thanks for your responses guys, we are trying to make a difference down under here in Australia. We are challenging pastors and church goers. I have come to the conclusion just about all of the denominations are under a works salvation. FRIGHTENING.
    Just wondering if anyone, knows the history of and when the whole Lordship Salvation started and whom with.How did it manage to make such large inroads into the whole of the evangelical churches. I know Calvanists are mainly LS.

    Thanks Jack and John for your prompt responses to our email. We pray for your health Jack, we do need yr input. Satan knows this site is needed for encouragement. I pray that god will raise many more to come on site.

  116. Eric,

    Welcome and glad to have you aboard.

    Galatians 5:22
    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,”

    The fruit spoken of here, love, joy, peace, longsuffering [pattience], gentleness, goodness, may be considered symptoms of salvation in a believer but could never be considered “proof”, anymore than a headache, bleary eyes and a red nose could be considered proof of an alcoholic hangover.

    How many Catholics, Jehovah witnesses, Mormons have you seen who show symptoms of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness? And yet they are not saved if they believe the doctrine they preach?

    Before I trusted Christ I knew many Catholics who exhibited some of those fruits and I thought that would be a great way to be… But they were victims of Rome and fooling themselves. I am thankful I was not taken by that false religion.

    The Scripture does not judge anyone’s salvation by their fruit, symptoms, outward behavior, actions or works.

    I pray this helps

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  117. Eric, welcome, and thanks for your comment.

    Fruit of the Spirit is manifested in the life of a believer to the extent that he walks in the Spirit and abides in Christ. It is not automatic, and in no way proves whether or not someone is a Christian.

    It is possible for the Christian to be unfruitful, as both soils 2 and 3 in the parable of the Sower affirm. Also, 2 Peter 1:5-8.

    The only evidence of salvation is whom a person is trusting (Jesus Christ) to get him to heaven.

  118. Alice, welcome! Like Jack said, your and Mary’s e-mail correspondence was a big part of the inspiration for this article.

    I will repeat, for the benefit of our readers, some of my earlier comments regarding your reply from Mr. J.:

    Even if someone appears to be bearing fruit expressed by
    works, one cannot conclude anything about whether or not he is saved.

    The Bible does not tell us that we can see peoples’ faith in Christ. It
    tells us we can see their works (Matthew 5:16)

    The Bible also tells us that many great works done in Christ’s name are
    done by unbelievers (Matthew 7:22-23).

    The only evidence of salvation is whom a person is trusting to
    get him to heaven. Any other form of “evidence” is unreliable and
    fleeting.

  119. Alice,

    Welcome to you — Down Under – or Up and Over as you might prefer. We love you folks!!

    I would like to take credit for this excellent article but it was written by John, our ExP co-Administrator, maybe inspired somewhat by your and Mary’s email correspondence.

    I will ask John to comment on your comment.

    I will say however, it seems you “get it” while your evangelist “friend” is still hopelessly stuck in the miry clay of LS despite his protestations.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  120. Excellent post, John.

    It reads:

    “Believers who do not confess Christ

    John 9:23: Nevertheless among the chief rulers many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

    The Bible says these people believed. What other evidence should we need?”

    And therein lies the crux of the matter. There IS no other evidence of the validity of these chief rulers being saved to be found in scripture. But the unrepentant LSr will seek it in vain. And because they don’t believe the Bible’s plan of salvation, they’ll never be satisfied, and no one who falls for this infernal system of unbelief will be freed by the truth that sets one free until the scales are removed from their eyes and they are able to finally really hear the truth, understand it, accept, it and believe, either unto salvation or unto liberty depending on whether or not they’ve ever trusted in Christ alone for their salvation.

  121. Thank you Jack for a timely article as I have been corresponding by email with an Australian Christian leader regarding James 2:14-20 when he said ‘good works are evidence of faith’ so I emailed him saying:
    “Dear Mr. J, I am still grappling with ‘having to show evidence of my salvation by my works’. Simply trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross of Calvary for my salvation APART FROM ANY WORKS AT ANY TIME is labelled ‘mere intellectual belief’. I believe Christ died and paid my past, present and future sin in total, therefore I can rest eternally secure, in total assurance of my salvation”.
    Mr. J’s reply:
    “No one is saying that you have to show evidence of your salvation by works. The point is that if your salvation does not produce in the life of a believer fruit expressed by works you either have two conclusions that you can reach. 1/ The declaration of faith was not a true repentance.
    2/ You are saved but it is a dead faith that is unfruitful and will bring no joy to your own faith or to the lives of others.
    Faith and eternal life is apart from works. But a heart that is truly the Lords will want to share that joy with others but if they do not it is their loss but will not affect their salvation. I am not saying works are essential, only that they are an evidence of salvation”.
    Please let me know what you think about his reply. Alice

  122. What about the fruits of the spirit ? Isn’t that proof or is that more what changes in a person after belief for salvation ?

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