Well, just received a note from a friend who is attending the Catalyst Conference Atlanta 2011 with the comment, “WOW, Fantastic!” Shocking!!!
This conference was apparently started in 1999 by Pastor Andy Stanley, Reggie Joiner and other young ministers, presumably to reach and teach leaders under the age of 40. They opined that church leadership was stuck in a forty to sixty year old mindset and medium. This team was convinced that this needed to change.
The Conference is meeting in Atlanta as I write this.
To get an idea of the direction of this conference we need only look at the speakers list — of which I will name a few:
Mark Driscoll, Pastor of Mars Hill Church, Washgton State. AKA “The Sexpert Pastor,” New Age and Contemplative advocate whose sermons and videos sport the warning, “Mature Content.”
Francis Chan, Author of “Crazy Love” (of which much has been written on this web site), Lordship Salvationist, former associate of John MacArthur, terrible “theology” etc, etc.
Cornell West, Princeton Professor, Radical Black Activist, former confidant and friend of President Obama, now leading an effort to replace Obama with a more “Progressive” (read Socialist) candidate in 2012. Author of “Race Matters” and prominent member of the Democratic Socialists of America. West has described himself as a “non-Marxist socialist” (partly due to Marx’s opposition to “religion,” via Wikipedia). One wonders why there would be a Christian Leadership conference with West as a Speaker. West worked with such public figures as Louis Farrakhan(Nation of Islam head) and Al Sharpton,(Race Hustler) whose 2004 presidential campaign West advised. (*plus so much more*)
Dave Ramsey, OK guy and promoter of personal financial responsibility (not sure why he would go to this affair, much less speak)
And other assorted speakers. The event is sponsored by a plethora of organizations, ecumenical in that some sponsor members are Assemblies of God, Indiana Wesleyan University (Methodist), Monvee Advisers (recommended by John Ortberg, Contemplative Author) and others some of whom are OK but others questionable.
Seems Andy Stanley has no discernment for Biblical Christian principles – at least in this big event.
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Notes From A Retired Preacher 
Thanks, Abe.
I’m reminded of some (useless) advice given to me by my (then) pastor over half a decade ago when I was confused and having doubts about my own salvation and he said, “Only you and God know if you’re really saved.”
Right. Anyone given the charge of leading a flock who can’t walk someone through the Bible and show them how they can know beyond any shadow of a doubt that they’re saved ought to go back to . . . well, I’m not going to denigrate other ways of making a buck. But it irritates me!
Oh, and this was the same conversation where he told me that belief in Christ couldn’t just be “a head knowledge,” and then said some nonsense about it having to do with my heart. UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
Abe,
Thanks…
Right on target again.. Mark Driscoll, in addition to his false doctrine, is also known as “The Sex Pastor.”
His claim to fame must be leading folks to hell. One wonders why folks listen to him.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Driscoll tells us his “5 ways to know if you’re really a Christian”, and none of the ways are believing in Jesus: http://theresurgence.com/2010/07/21/5-ways-to-know-if-youre-really-a-christian
He really of course gives the credit for this false gospel, to Johnathan Edwards, who was the LS originator of this concept.
Of course, it fits reformed/calvinistic lies perfectly, since they aren’t trying to be saved by faith in Jesus. They are only hoping to be part of the “elect” and looking for “evidence” to satisfy the fear in their hearts that perhaps they were chosen for the lake of fire and can’t do anything to change it.
Driscoll is clearly a false teacher who isn’t preaching the true Jesus.
Hello FryingPan9,
Thanks for the heads-up about Dave Ramsey. Yes, one of the regular contributors at Expreacherman who is a good friend to many of us here, Pearl, warned us about Dave Ramsey months ago. She told of how his “gospel” CD had a standard Calvinist/LS “turn from your sins” and “commit your life to Jesus” message. Pearl also warned us of Ramsey’s connection to the Contemplative/Emergent “Christianity” movement and how his co-speaker at a seminar endorsed Francis Chan’s “Crazy Love” LS book.
As for Dave Ramsey (and I’m sorry if someone addressed this already, but this is LONG thread) I will take a stab in the dark and guess he attended because he teaches managing money “from a Christian perspective.” I like Dave and have met him and talked to him several times but the first time I visited his web site I was shocked to see he promoted Napolean Hill’s blatantly occult book THINK AND GROW RICH.
Gary,
Thanks for visiting and giving us an idea of what you believe.
FYI, we “sort ourselves out” for the Gospel’s sake.
We don’t condemn numbers in churches as long as the Gospel of God’s Grace in Christ alone is preached. If you read this article and others at ExPreacherMan.com about those “three” you will find that their message and words do not match the True Grace Gospel of Jesus Christ in 1 Corinthians 15:3-6.
You wrote, “By saying they are not preaching ‘the gospel’ because it doesn’t fit in your narrow understanding of it, is a disgraceful thing to say.”
The Gospel is indeed narrow, as we see Jesus Himself speaking in John 3:18 “He that believeth on him [Jesus Christ] is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Very narrow, very simple.
Please advise us of your broad interpretation of the Gospel. We would be interested.
I am concerned that you may be looking at the Gospel through a Lordship “Salvation” lens (which cannot save) rather than a Biblical one.
Please search our web site for Andy Stanley, Rick Warren and Francis Chan and read their own outlandish quotes. You may be surprised. Here is a link to a recent Francis Chan post: http://www.tinyurl.com/9ymygo4
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Roberdorf,
Yep, that is a good observation.. for all today who have trusted Christ as Savior, God’s word, the 2,000 and the 4,000 year old mindset is recorded in the KJV.. and available to all. Great point.
We pray you will subscribe and come back again.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
“They opined that church leadership was stuck in a forty to sixty year old mindset and medium.”
Personally I opine that a 2,000 to 4,000 year old mindset would be the ideal for those who follow God.
Dear Readers,
Andy Stanley’s Ecumenical Catalyst Leadership Conference has spread from Atlanta to California. Please read the newest bash, featuring Rick Warren:
http://www.expreacherman.com/2011/10/20/andy-stanleys-catalyst-leadership-now-in-socal-with-rick-warren/
In Christ, Jack
Pingback: Andy Stanley’s Catalyst “Leadership” Now in SoCal with Rick Warren | Notes From A Retired Preacher
Marcella,
I have not received it — sorry, I can’t do much from my end. I sent myself a test email and it went through in seconds.
Maybe you should re-boot your computer or complain to your provider.
In Christ eternally, Jack
Jack, I’m having e-mail problems. I have tried to reply to your last e-mail, but I have gotten an error message and the e-mail didn’t get sent. I tried three times, but it didn’t work.
Thanks for your clarification Bruce 🙂
Faith,
Insightful comments! Thanks. One clarification that I would make about Francis Chan’s false teaching is that he declares in his book “Crazy Love” that there is no such thing as a “lukewarm Christian.” He calls the term “an oxymoron.” To Chan, ALL of the lukewarm are unsaved, damned eternally to hell. According to his artificially-concocted list of what it means to be lukewarm, I and just about every Christian I know would fail the “Chan” test.
Only the superchristians like himself, I suppose, are good enough [having enough meritorious good works], in his thinking, to make it.
David Platt’s book, “Radical,” is very similar to “Crazy Love” in its approach and theology, but at least it is not as condemning as Chan’s book.
Thanks for your comments,
Bruce
You are right Kathy I was not there, but one thing I do know is that Mark Driscoll believes that it is of Christ to be involved with contemplative prayer.
Cornel West blasted poor Herman Cain for speaking the truth when he said “I don’t believe there is racism in this country today that holds anybody back in a big way. Is there some… are there some elements of racism? Yes. It gets back to, if we don’t grow this economy, that is a ripple effect for every economic level, and because blacks are more disproportionately unemployed, they get hit the worst when economic policies don’t work. That’s where it starts. Grow this economy and it’s going to help everybody get jobs and to get back in the workforce.”
Cornel West said this in response to Herman Cain “Get off the symbolic crack pipe and acknowledge the evidence is overwhelming.”
Francis Chan and David Platt even though there is alot to glean that is good, but preaches a gospel of if you are not doing these things for the poor like I do you are a lukewarm Christian and may not be saved.
The thing I see coming in is a social gospel (a liberal gospel). You will have very good teaching and then they subtly bring in liberal theology. This is happening to churches all over. This syncretism at its finest. Make it sound biblical but mix in a little Cornel West. Cornel West is a liberal by the way and was a huge supporter of Obama (not now because Obama has not done enough for the poor).
I am sure Jack, Bruce, and the others could explain this better than I could.
Kathy,
Thanks for dropping in and commenting. I love as a Sister in Christ and also for our many years of friendship.
BTW, my statement in the first paragraph was quoting you “WOW, Fantastic!” (and that is in quotes).. and my comment Shocking!!! was not in quotes — not quoting you.. but I was surprised that you found Catalyst’s list of false teachers Fantastic. (We also note that there were some good ones — but why they will associate with the false is beyond me).
Kathy FYI, I would NEVER recommend a meeting where Driscoll, Chan and Cornell West were speaking.. They did their job very successfully — speaking sweet words and thereby fooling enough people that they will want to investigate them, their theology and buy their books. Nowhere does the Bible tell us to “eat the meat and spit out the bones” but to avoid error and be ye separate from it.. Even Satan speaks sweet words.
Andy Stanley and friends did indeed start Catalyst according to their own records. In the very first sentence of Catalyst “History” is this quote: “Catalyst was conceived as a Next Generation Leaders Conference in 1999 by Andy Stanley, Reggie Joiner, John Maxwell, Lanny Donoho and several young leaders.” Check it out here:
http://www.catalystconference.com/history
Kathy, I have written many articles on this web site about the extreme errors of Driscoll and especially Francis Chan. He is a product of John MacArthur and his Lordship “Salvation” errors, a Calvinist and dangerous to the uninformed and baby Christians, regardless of sweet words he may have spoken. You may use the search box to search for Chan and read for yourself our documentation of his anti-Biblical teachings.
Here is one among many articles:
http://www.expreacherman.wordpress.com/2011/01/23/lordship-salvation-teaches-confusion-francis-chan/
Thanks again for dropping by.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Jack, it appears you are referring to my FB comment about Catalyst since, after attending the first day I posted “Wow, Fantastic” without the word “Shocking.”
I have read through the 71 comments to your blog and find it interesting that it appears no one who commented actually attended the meetings. Since I was actually there, I would be happy to answer questions from anyone regarding what I heard and saw.
My comment “Wow, fantastic” was in response to seeing 13,000 ministry people in one room and listening to speakers exalt Christ and challenge me.
My husband and I have had an interest in and love for teenagers and young adults since before we were married. In the past 46 years, there has not been one period of time that we have not been involved with them, attempting to minister in their lives. Why did we go to Catalyst? To see where the Church is headed and observe what our kids are being exposed to.
We felt very comfortable attending since Andy Stanley was involved (and by the way, he did not begin the movement.) Including books written by profs in our Bible College, Jack, I don’t think I have ever read a more clear presentation of the Gospel than his book “How Good is Good Enough?”
To be honest, I’m very glad I didn’t know anything about the speakers before I went. Because I didn’t, the Holy Spirit ministered to me mightily though their messages. I had no preconceived ideas.
Did I know Mark Driscoll was a “sexpot pastor?” Nope. Did his message on “Fear” speak to me? You bet!!
Did I know Francis Chan was Lordship salvation? No and I never would have by listening to him. Was I blown away with his vision and strategy for reaching the inner city for Christ? Yes! If he gives those folks a false message, that will have to be between him and the Lord but I certainly got some great ideas on reaching those folks in our city.
Did I know Cornel West was a black activist? I did after they introduced the film clip of an interview with him. Did he sound radical to me? Not unless you consider this statement radical…and I guess it is. “What sets us apart is the blood of Jesus Christ. I’m not talkin’ about that watered down Kool-aid blood; I’m talkin’ about that thick red blood that Jesus shed on the cross for us.” It brought tears to my eyes.
Another thing I didn’t know until I got there was the mind-boggling things these folks are doing to reach the poor, the widows, the homeless, the hungry…A part of Jesus’ command that the fundamental Church has tragically lost sight of.
A 22 year old came to challenge us. She is living in Africa as a single woman whom God has allowed to adopt 14 children and raise them as her own.
They’re collecting used soap from hotels, melting it down and reconstituting it to be sent to third world countries where disease has dramatically dropped because of such efforts.
Another saw orphans who had no shoes in Argentina while on a missions trip there. He was so burdened about this that he came home, designed high price shoes and uses the profit on each one to put a pair of shoes on one of those orphans.
Talk about ministry opportunities!
It was very interesting to hear Andy Stanley close the conference by thanking the speakers and telling the audience that even though some of the speakers were not in total agreement with our philosophy of ministry and one or two may not even hold to our core beliefs, we have been able to learn from each of them.
Jack, we were taught in Bible college to eat the meat and spit out the bones. That is exactly what we did at Catalyst (although in reality we didn’t find all that many bones to spit out.).
We of the free grace persuasion are often accused of being narrow minded. About the Gospel, absolutely. About learning from others, using discernment, may it never be.
Yeh we do have fun in this class- lots of discussion! 🙂
Too much credit Jack- I feel really inadequate at times believe me.
But I do have to rely on the Lord, and I know this I have learned alot from
my kids- patience for one (and still in learning process).
I do believe homeschooling is as much for the parents as it is for the kids.
Thanks for your comments:)
Faith,
Teaching Logic in home-schooling??? Wonderful!!! I’d like to be in that class!
We know that is a real job but it pays eternal dividends in the end. My wife’s daughter is home-schooling all 7 of her kids – three are out of college, one is attending and the others are still at home. Having your “hands-full” is an understatement, right??
You are indeed a brave Christian lady and to be commended.. That is even more reason for all of us to pray for you and your husband (he must have enormous God given patience). What a pleasure know y’all.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Oh yes- that is a lesson for us all.
I have been teaching my kids logic for homeschooling and we have been going through the fallacies that human beings make everyday (red herrings, ad hominems, tu quoques, etc..) I was amazed at what fallacies I did with my children, husband and others- please Lord forgive me of my mouth and what harm it can do and please tie my tongue when I need to be quiet.
The Lord bless you guys too. 🙂
Hi Friends,
The best thing that the three “friends” of Job did for him was to sit by his side at the city dump in the ash heap for the first seven days, NOT SAYING ONE WORD TO HIM. We can learn a lesson about comforting others from that inaction. A former professor of mine told us about an incident in his early career as a pastor. He went to a hospital room to comfort the family of a man in his church who was dying. The pastor was so young and nervous that after saying hello he was absolutely tongue-tied for the rest of the lengthy time that he stayed in the room with the man and his family. Eventually, the pastor said goodbye to the family and left. Weeks later the man in the hospital miraculously recovered. His son came up to the pastor at church and thanked the pastor on behalf of the whole family for the incredible comfort that he brought to all of them from his visit. The pastor said, “But I really didn’t do anything or say anything to help.” The son replied, “It didn’t matter; just by your being there with us, holding our hand and just staying there with us, we were all greatly comforted.” Upon reflecting years later on the incident, my professor was convinced that the Holy Spirit tied his tongue that day of the hospital visit. There’s a pretty good lesson in that story for all of us, I’m sure.
Would love that also!!
Jan you are so right on the legalistic viewpoint with Job- saw that right away with Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar. After seeing the responses from these two who needs friends if they are like these characters.
Bruce, I also would enjoy some of your teaching on Job. Thank you!
Saaaayyyyyy!!!
I like that idea! 😀
JanH
Jan, Faith and Bruce,
Since you, Faith, are studying Job and Bruce is teaching the book to his class, maybe Bruce would take some of his teaching notes and do a post summary of personal applications from the Book of Job. There are lots of good daily applications therein which all of us could use.
In Christ eternally, Jack
Faith-
The Job’s comforter issue is one of the outcomes of a legalistic/law mindset. Grace produces neither licentiousness nor legalism, but love and love would never do the Job’s comforter thing.
JanH
This is not intended to curtail comments here on this post — but my post today is A Side Trip Into Christian Awareness.
http://www.expreacherman.wordpress.com/2011/10/10/side-trip-into-christian-awareness/
I discuss several news items which are or will be, in some way, affecting Christians — especially those of us in the USA. We will appreciate your comments.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Hey Jan it is interesting the subject of Job has come up. My kids and I are studying Job and learning valuable lessons. I was amazed going back and studying this book how much I have missed- Yes you are so right about how we have to be careful in comforting those who have dealt with loss (any kind of loss). That is why (usually) Christians who have gone through the same loss can empathize with compassion and grace.
Christ knew perfectly how to empathize with those who had gone through pain and loss- this is what we should strive to emulate through the work of the Holy Spirit.
This is why the fruits of the Holy Spirit is something we should continually ask from the Lord because only through true love, patience, kindness would we be able to show true empathy.
Bruce-
I learned a long time ago about the importance of not being a Job’s comforter. I have a sick, housebound friend who has been accosted by such people, who have no idea what he goes through day by day. I know somewhat of what he goes through because I have a chronic illness too. But these people have no idea what it is like so they say stupid, hurtful things. One of the absolute worst things you can do is to kick someone when they’re down like that. It’s no wonder at all God was angry with them.
JanH
Thanks Jack for your prayers. Praying also for you too. 🙂
yard (city wise).
Sorry mess up there. Repeat.
Interesting you comments about COC. I went to a COC university called Harding University. Great school and some wonderful believers, although definitely wrong in their baptism and musical instrument beliefs. I think you will probably find a wide array of different viewpoints among the COCers- some very legalistic, some very liberal, and then some more balanced. the COCers are not under a organization, such as SBC or Reformed. They are more independent. I would never go back to a COC because they have got it wrong with baptism and eschatology, but I knew some that were
definitely believers. I did not know that went on with the Chapmans – too sad someone would say these things- they are pretty much living in my backyard (city wise).
I would have to say deception is hitting hard in all denominations and has caused many casualties. Time to get away from man centered philosophies- don’t ya think?
yard (city wise).
Jan,
Wow, that was a shocking story! That commenter about the Chapmans was unbelievably cruel in what he said. I’m currently teaching through the book of Job. That mean person reminds me of the three incredibly insensitive “comforters” who verbally rubbed salt in Job’s wounds.
I was at a Christian music festival several years ago, where Stephen Curtis Chapman was playing. He talked about his family of six children – three biological and three adopted, as well the story of the girl, who was run over. Very sad, and it’s even sadder when someone has the heartless gall to make a comment about God judging someone for using musical instruments in worship! My parents’ neighbor’s son backed over his little brother and killed him a few years ago, too. How awful!
What appalled me about the COC is that they think “the churches of Christ,” in the Bible actually means the Church of Christ. That’s similar to the Baptist Brider thinking that John the Baptist justifies that the Baptist Church is the only true church. Ridiculous!!
The sophistry of the ICOC is shocking. I can’t believe anyone could possibly be taken in by that kind of reasoning. Yet, obviously they are.
One of the cruelest comments I ever saw online was made by one COCer about another one. CCM artist Stephen Curtis Chapman is apparently associated with the ICOC, though he apparently attends a more liberal church or else there is a discrepancy among COC churches or something, because he obviously uses instruments in his music. The Chapmans had, I think, 5 children. The youngest (I think it was the youngest, it might have been the second youngest) was a girl adopted from China. His oldest was a late teen, around 19, I think, when a tragedy happened in their family. This son had gotten in their SUV to drive somewhere, not realizing the young girl was behind the car because he couldn’t see her. He backed up out of the driveway and ran over her by accident, killing her. You can just imagine the incredible pain of this tragedy for all concerned.
This was in the news around a lot of places online when it happened. There was one site that might have been a COC site, I’m not sure, but there were a lot of COCers that commented in the comment thread of an article about it, mostly condolences and the like. But one of them actually said this was God’s judgment against Chapman for using musical instruments in worship. Yes. He really did actually say that. Can you imagine anything so cruel and utterly worthless and baseless??? How perverse!
JanH
Faith-
You make some good comments!
JanH
Yes, Church of Christ is a cult, too. I have a friend, who was Lutheran and started attending a Church of Christ this summer. She pressured me to come to her church, but I refused. Following is some questions I raised to someone from the Church of Christ, and his response. This is very lengthy, and if you don’t want to read it all, jump to the very last sentence!
My question: “Can you explain to me why they don’t use instruments in worship?”
Response: Jesus says in John 4:24, “God is spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” Singing has a very definite place in worshipping God “in spirit and in truth”. God has commanded each one of us to sing in worship. When people just sit through the worship service and never attempt to sing (unless they can’t sing) they are not obeying God. Or when people sit and listen to a choir sing they are not obeying God’s command to sing. There is no Biblical authority for a choir in worship. Congregational a cappella singing is the only kind of music divinely authorized by the Lord for Christian worship.
In Colossians 3:16-17 we read, “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus.” In verse 16 we are commanded to sing. In the very next verse we are told, “whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus.” Everything we do in religion is to be done “in the name of the Lord Jesus”, which means by His authority. We can certainly sing by the authority of the Lord. But where would we go in the New Testament for authority for instrumental music in the worship? It just isn’t there.
In 1 Corinthians 14:15 we read, “I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the understanding also.” Not only does an instrument not have a heart, but it also does not have a spirit with which to understand. God has spoken in the New Testament concerning the kind of music we must use if we expect to worship Him “in spirit and in truth.” Singing is the limit of God’s command. God nowhere in the New Testament authorized mechanical instruments of music to be used in worship of the church and to use it is a sin. A lifeless mechanical instrument of music cannot worship.
In Ephesians 5:19 we read, “Speaking to yourselves in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.” Also we read in Colossians 3:16, “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching, and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” Here we see in our singing, we are to speak, teach, and admonish one another. This is what God expects us to do when we sing.
But can a mechanical instrument of music speak, teach, or admonish as God wishes us to do when we sing? No. A mechanical instrument of music cannot accomplish anything God has commanded when we sing to Him in worship. Here we see that when we sing, we are “to sing with grace in your hearts” and “make melody in your heart.” The melody God wants is to come from the human heart and not from lifeless mechanical musical instruments.
Some people say, “I like instrumental music in worship”. It becomes: “I like it, I want it, and I am going to have it.” Their feelings take precedence over what God has authorized. They are trusting in themselves. In Proverbs 28:26 we read, “He who trusts in his own heart is a fool.”
We read in 2 John 9, “Whosoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.” We can not use instrumental music by the doctrine or authority of Christ, because Christ has nowhere authorized it. If we add mechanical instruments of music to the worship of God then we have added to God’s word. In the closing words of the New Testament we are warned not to add to His word. In Revelation 22:18, “If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book.”
If we follow only what God has authorized in our singing in worship, then the whole congregation will sing without mechanical instruments of music. Only then can we be pleasing to God so we can go to Heaven.
Since Christ never authorized mechanical instruments of music in the New Testament to be used in worship of the church, we might ask, when did man “take it upon himself” to start using them in trying to worship God? It is a historical fact according to early church history, no mechanical instruments of music were ever used in church worship until about the year 670 A.D. At this time the church at Rome introduced an organ which produced such disturbances that it was removed. It was not until about 775 A.D. that it was introduced again, but this time it was kept, even with many people objecting. For many years many churches did not accept the instrument.
Even in the 13th century Thomas Aquinas, a noted Catholic scholar, wrote against its use. This showed that even by the 13th century the instrument had not gained full acceptance. Men wanted to have it their way with no regard to what God had specified. This was a departure from the faith and practice of what God has authorized. Why was the use of mechanical instruments of music totally unknown in the worship of the church for the first six hundred years after the New Testament was written? The word “A Capella” means singing without instrumental accompaniment. It actually means, “as done in the chapel.” For the first 600 years of the church “as done in the chapel” meant singing in worship of the church without instrumental accompaniment. This is the way the early church worshipped. Why shouldn’t we also worship this way?
Singing in worship to God is for the purpose of honoring God and teaching one another. Singing is what pleases God. Singing without the instrument of music shows our respect of God and what He says in His word when He specifies our heart as the instrument where the melody is to be made. If we love and respect God we will do everything He says and in the way He says to do it. We will not change, substitute, or add to what He says. We must only sing if we want to worship God “in spirit and in truth.”
My Question: “Why don’t they use the Old Testament?”
Response: We are no longer under the Old Testament law. The Old Testament is still useful to us because without it we could not understand the New Testament. Romans 15:4 says, “For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.” The Old Testament law has been abolished (Ephesians 2:15), taken out of the way and was nailed to the cross of Christ (Colossians 2:14). Romans 7:6-7 tells us that we have been delivered from the Old Testament law. Since we have been delivered from it we are no longer under it.
In Psalms 66:15 we read, “I will offer you burnt sacrifices of fat animals, with the sweet aroma of rams, I will offer bulls with goats.” Are we today to offer the burnt animal sacrifices as is specified here in the book of Psalms? No. The Old Testament has been taken out of the way when Christ died on the cross. We read in Colossians 2:14, “Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” In speaking of the New Testament we read in Hebrews 9:16, “For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.” So after Christ died the Old Testament was taken out of the way and His testament, the New Testament, took effect for us today.
We are no longer under the Old Testament. The Old Testament was then replaced for us today with the New Testament. The Old Testament is still very useful for us today, because without the Old Testament the New Testament would be difficult to understand. But today we do not go to the Old Testament to learn what to do in worship to God.
In speaking of Christ and His New Testament we read in Hebrews 8:6-7, “But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for the second.” So we see here the New Testament is a better covenant with better promises. And then in Galatians 3:24-25, “Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor.” We are no longer under the Old Testament.
Then in speaking of the Old Testament law in Romans 7:6 we read, “But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.” Since we have been delivered from the Old Testament law we should not try to serve God by its regulations. Why?
In speaking of the Old Testament law we read in Galatians 5:4, “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.” If we try to justify ourselves by the Old Testament we will fall from grace and will be lost.
My comment: “The COC has alot of bad unbiblical doctrine. They claim that they are the only true church”.
Response: The Lord is to be glorified by the worship He receives in His church. In Ephesians 3:21 we read, “To Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus.” But how many churches does the Lord have? Jesus says in Matthew 16:18, “Upon this rock I will build My church.” The word “My” shows possession and that the church belongs to Jesus. How many churches did He say He was going to build? He said, “I will build My church”. The word church is singular not plural. The Lord only promised to build His one church.
In Ephesians 4:4-6 there are seven ones listed: “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” Just as there is only one God and only one Lord we also see there is only one body. The Bible says there is only one body; so what is this one body? In Ephesians 1:21-22 we find out what this one body is, “And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, which is His body.” Here we see that the Bible says the church is the body. So if there is only one body and the one body is the church, then there can only be one church that belongs to the Lord.
In Colossians 1:18 in speaking of Christ, we read, “And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He may have the preeminence.” Here again we see that the body (singular) is the church (singular). Again the Bible tells us that the Lord has only one church. We also see that in all things Christ is to have the preeminence. For Christ to have the preeminence in all things, we must follow Christ in all things and not follow man. If we follow men in some things then Christ does not have the preeminence in all things.
Since Christ only built His one church, we need to ask where did all these other churches come from? The only answer is they were built by men, so men could “attend the church of their choice”, and not God’s choice. We read in Ephesians 5:23, “Christ is the head of the church, and he is the savior of the body.” Christ is only the saviour of His one body, His one church. In the Lord’s scheme of redemption, He has only planned to have one church. He is going to only save His one church.
Since we have seen in the Bible that the one body is the one church which the Lord built, and that Christ has only promised to save His one body, His one church, then what is going to happen to the hundreds of different kinds of other churches we see in existence today? Again let us let God answer this question. In Matthew 15:13 Jesus said, “Every plant, which my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.” What will happen to all those churches that God did not plant? They will be rooted up. This is what God has said He will do. This is frightening. I want to make sure I am in the Lord’s church, the only one He is going to save.
In Psalms 127:1 we read, “Except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.” This is a sad but serious situation; one that concerns me greatly and causes me much grief and sorrow to see honest people, who are honestly mistaken, laboring in vain. This is a tragedy.
The one church that Christ purchased with His own blood belongs to Him and the name it wears must honor Him. We read in Romans 16:16, “The churches of Christ greet you.” This name glorifies and honors Christ, the one who built it. Other names honor and glorify John the Baptist, Martin Luther, the day of Pentecost, the apostles, Anglican, Rome, Antioch, Nazareth, the Greeks, the Russians, the methodical way of doing things, Christians, the free will, being primitive, southern, missionary, general, the seventh day, science, catholic which means universal, the advent, and the list goes on and on. Even by their names they do not claim to be Christ’s one church. Why can’t we give the glory and honor to God and Christ where the honor belongs?
Today we hear the sincere but mistaken plea to “attend the church of your choice.” Why not attend the church of God’s choice, the only one that Jesus “purchased with His own blood” (Acts 20:28). Christ did not shed His blood to purchase any denomination.
Hi friends,
Great conversation! Sound insights and warnings from everyone!
Jack, you said:
“Their teaching (among other things) is that one must be water baptized into that particular church to have that kind of fellowship.”
This sounds very much like a group that came to my doorstep once some years ago. They were from The Church of Christ. I spoke to them at first as if they were brothers and sisters, fellow Christians. I informed them that I was an actively-serving member of a good solidly evangelical Bible-believing Baptist church in the area. I expected them to say, “Praise the Lord and keep on serving him!” Instead, they kept pressing me and pressing me to come to their church, intimating that where I was attending was somehow flawed, not good enough, and that I really needed to come to THEIR church. I knew in my gut there there was something wrong. Some quick study informed me that they were part of a cult which preaches baptismal regeneration, among other false teachings. They teach that all churches and denominations [they consider themselves NOT to be a denomination, but THE true church of Christ Jesus] other than theirs are are wrong and of the devil; only those who have been baptized by a Church of Christ pastor can be truly saved. They also believe that people can get saved, lost, saved again, etc. Very cultic sounding eh??
Right on, Faith! I admit that I have become complacent. It’s difficult to be out of fellowship with a church, but I refuse to compromise even one ounce or attend a church that has any false doctrine or false teaching! I’m thankful for this online fellowship, for the iron that sharpens iron here, and for the encouragement, prayer support and challenge to learn and grow in my relationship with Jesus Christ! Thank you, Jack, Bruce, and everyone else! God bless you!
You are absolutely right, Jan and Jack! The Baptist Brider is a cult. I’ve seen it referred to as the Baptist Briber. The MO Lutheran Pastor, who I discussed Luther’s Small Cathecism with, also demonstrated some cult like behavior. I asked him if I could take communion at another church. He said that I could, but that I would be agreeing with that church’s doctrine, and if it’s not the same as the MO Lutheran, then I should not be taking communion at another church. That Pastor also had some qualms about fellowshipping with other churches, whose doctrine differed from the MO Lutheran. I know we are not to participate in ecumenical gatherings, but the MO Lutheran Pastor made it sound like fellowship with people outside of his church was inappropriate or risky. There was a very serious atmosphere at that church, and I could just picture it becoming oppressive if I had continued going to that church.
Faith,
I just want to let you know I pray for you daily — as well as all of our other faithful friends who frequent here. (And for myself that I will be and stay faithful to God’s Word and won’t be tempted by error).
Jan, Marcella,
My wife tells the story of a family years ago — father and son pastors in separate Brider Baptist churches.. who could not partake of the Lord’s Supper remembrance fellowship service in the others’ church because each considered their own church to be “The Bride of Christ.” Their teaching (among other things) is that one must be water baptized into that particular church to have that kind of fellowship.
Jan, it does sound cultist, I agree. The world is full of weird dissembling of God’s Word.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
“to be sure that they are WELL grounded in the Bible and in their faith and to pray every day for much discernment and protection in their studies.”
Bruce this is the single most important thing that is lacking in the church today. How many are well grounded in the Word and in their faith? How many pray for discernment and wisdom? When I do not study the Word or pray I can tell that I am out of communion with Jesus. It does affect what we do, say, and believe. When we are fed with heavy doses of mens works we are bound to get off course. Satan does not usually come after us
with nuclear warfare, but with attrition – he gradually wears down the believer to the point that the believer does not have a clue on what he or she believes in any more- hegelian dialectic. This tactic is used by those in the church to subvert the church of Jesus Christ. It is our job as discerning believers to study the Word more, pray more, and do the job of warning others. I just have a hard time having the courage and the know-how to do it – you can pray for me in that. 🙂
Thanks Jack, Bruce, Marcella, Jan, Pearl, and John for your exhortation to stick to Christ first and foremost and your correct theology of grace.
The Baptist Brider believes that their church is the Bride of Christ and that all other Christians just make up the family of God. The Pastor of the Fundamental Baptist church I visited said on the first Sunday I went, “If you are from another church or denomination, you might not really be saved.
Good grief! That is not just error. That is a cult. “No salvation outside of our church” is virtually the definition of a cult and is always a mark of one. There is no salvation in any other name but Christ, not “there is no salvation in any other church but ours.”
JanH
Thanks for the information, Marcella! You are becoming a very discerning believer in Christ Jesus. That is wonderful!
According to what I read on the internet, it would be difficult to find a preacher, who would admit to being a Baptist Brider, but it seems that the Fundamental Baptist preacher of the church I visited is very open about it.
Bruce, thank you for the information! The Baptist Brider believes that their church is the Bride of Christ and that all other Christians just make up the family of God. The Pastor of the Fundamental Baptist church I visited said on the first Sunday I went, “If you are from another church or denomination, you might not really be saved.” What?!? I was shocked to hear that because I know for a fact that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and that yes, I am saved! The Pastor went on to say that their church is the only true church, the Bride of Christ, and that Baptist is mentioned in the Bible. Then he talked about John the Baptist. The Pastor said that a person had to be baptized into his church in order to become a member and part of the Bride of Christ. From what I understand, the Baptist Brider preacher uses John the Baptist to try to justify that the Baptist Church is the Bride of Christ. The website of the church I visited lists many books written by the Pastor, and one is called “What Exactly is the Baptist Bride”? I had never heard of “Baptist Bride,”, so I researched on the internet, and what I read was exactly in line with what the Pastor said. I was shocked! I have a co-worker, who is a member of that church, and she and her husband moved here from another state because of that church. There are three Pastors, and they and their spouses have reserved seats in the congregation. They weren’t front row seats, but random places. They had a Thanksgiving dinner, and there was a table reserved for the Pastors right beside the food table. As I thought about this, I couldn’t help but think how sad it is that the Baptist Brider has reserved places here on earth for its Pastors. For us, who are believers, Jesus Christ is preparing a place in Heaven. John 14:1-3, “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. ”
The Fundamental Baptist Church I visited was very legalistic. They didn’t celebrate Christmas or Easter. I visited an Independent Baptist Church, too, and they also were legalistic. Their calendar didn’t list any Christmas worship services, yet they sang Christmas songs, had a Christmas tree in the sanctuary and other Christmas decorations up.
Hi Marcella:
One must be sooooo careful if he or she wishes to attend a Christian seminary these days. I graduated from a conservative Christian seminary in California in 1986; at that time it was mostly a solidly Evangelical Christian institution. It is still one of the better Christian seminaries in the sense that it has not gone “liberal,” like, say, Union Seminary of New York. But, being part of a liberal arts university, the leadership wants the students to be exposed to various theological approaches; I know of at least one of its main professors currently who teaches contemplative prayer and eastern meditation.
I’ll list a few institutions which are Conservative Christian and teach Free Grace Theology (I’m sure that there are others). One problem with some of these schools is that they are not fully accredited, so if a student intends to go on for a PhD or the like, he or she would not be able to transfer the units to an accredited school. For many, that is an important consideration.
Dayspring Bible College: http://www.dayspringbiblecollege.edu/?i=7841
Grace School of Theology
Free Grace Seminary
Marcella, what I would say to any young Christians considering attending a graduate theological institution is to be sure that they are WELL grounded in the Bible and in their faith and to pray every day for much discernment and protection in their studies.
Regarding some Fundamental or Independent Baptist colleges and seminaries, yes, you are correct, their teaching can be very narrow (in an elitist sense) and legalistic. Usually, they are non-accredited; so if a man who desires to become a pastor attends one of their seminaries, he will almost certainly have to seek employment within their “denomination,” if you want to call it that.
Regarding your comment about the “Baptist Brider” movement, I don’t know much about it although I understand that it is considered to be a fringe heretical movement.
Thank you, Jan and David, for the clarification.
Bruce, exactly what is being taught in seminary these days? I have heard about false teaching going on in the seminary where I live, and the students, who become preachers, teach it from the pulpit. I visited a Fundamental Baptist Church last year, which turned out to be a Baptist Brider. They have a seminary. I found out that the students have to learn and teach the church doctrine, and if they don’t agree with it, they get kicked out of seminary.
Marcella, I’d be happy to. Though Mormonism wasn’t mentioned by name obviously, the error was, in that Paul said even if an angel from heaven were to preach another gospel, he was to be accursed for it. Of course, J. Smith’s claim is just that, that he received it from an angel. God’s Word alone is authoritative! Also, good one about Catholic teaching.
Yeah, I didn’t understand the “Scott” comment either. Maybe he’ll come back and explain himself better.
Jack legalistic? NOT on your life!
Marcella, I think that you really hit on something important when you said, “It’s not just the SBC, who love to defend their false doctrine. . . . mainline denominational Pastors will defend their false doctrine, too, as well as other denominations.” Years ago, when I was in seminary, a professor warned the students about what to expect from many theologians who get published. He said something like this: “When a pastor or a professor of theology gets his viewpoints published widely in book form, it is practically impossible for anyone to dissuade him of any error involved in that position; to get him to ever repudiate his position is almost unheard of!” It sounds to me like this is an issue of pride on their part.
Pearl,
I guess it depends on the definition Scott gives for “legalism” and “Grace.”
In Christ eternally, Jack
Marcella,
Clever — and true.
In Christ eternally, Jack
It’s not just the SBC, who love to defend their false doctrine. Mainlie, errr mainline denominational Pastors will defend their false doctrine, too, as well as other demonations. Romans 1:18-25.
Yeah, I, too, was scratching my head on Scott’s comment.
Jack, legalistic?
Jan,
If Scott had simply read the article or searched our site he would have seen most of us have no love for the parts of the SBC statement of faith that are false doctrine. And SBC (Mohler included) love to defend their false doctrine.
Maybe Scott was just a hit-and-run kinda guy.. But he will be welcomed back.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
It sounds like Scott was saying that Southern Baptist Churches are legalistic and is complaining against them. That is the same thing that John was saying. John found the SB church he went to was LS, which is overwhelmingly the case, especially with men like Mohler in charge of their seminary. And I think Mark Dever’s church is SBC too (though I’m not sure about that. I know it’s Baptist but I’m not sure if it’s SB).
Perhaps Scott is accidentally thinking we are SBC because they were mentioned upstream.
JanH
Scott,
Thanks for dropping in and for your comment.
1) And just what is hypocritical about being a believer in God’s Free Grace Gospel?
2) Specifically, what is said here that is hypocritical?
3) Specifically, what do you believe that is so diametrically opposed to our Free Grace Gospel message?
4) Do you not agree with the statement in the Header above, Eternal Life For you? Link:
http://www.expreacherman.wordpress.com/eternal-life-for-you/
We await your kind detailed explanation.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
How is it that your SBC religion is so anti-Gospel.. It’s legalism and graceless.
That is not what the SBC is supposed to be about.. It’s supposed to be gospel centred, but you all are making it a dead, joy robbing religion.
It’s about Jesus.. He saves sinners you hypocrites!
Jan, how do the Catholics forbid marrying and the eating of certain foods? Are you referring to priests being required to remain single? My Catholic brother-in-law and his family eat shrimp and other shell fish by the truck loads! Do some Catholics refrain from eating these foods? That must mean they only eat certain fish during Lent.
Yep. That’s what I’m talking about.
JanH
Yeh you are right Marcella – Paul was continually warning Christians of the false teachings of legalism. I am always amazed at the contrast of how Christ deals with our sin and how man will deal with mans sin (whether his own or someone elses)- Christ convicts us of our sin (if we listen and obey we enjoy the fruits of that repentance) but His conviction is one that leads us to doing what He desires and we can enjoy fellowship with Him- joy, peace, etc. Mans conviction results in worldly guilt, coercion, control, shame, and eventually legalism produces the opposite effect- it will lead to more sin. How many times do you hear of a leader in the church blast their congregation against a sin that he himself is guilty of?
Now I am not saying that God uses godly men and women to exhort and rebuke, but it definitely has to be done in humility and love lest that man or woman rebuking gets tempted also.
I will stick with Jesus Christ – He knows exactly how I need to sanctified and conformed to be like Him. I have had to learn the hard way with my children- I would try in my own power to produce godly children and failed.
Letting go of my children (they are older) to the Lord I am learning how to respond in a different way to them and encourage them to have a walk with the Lord. This has been surprisingly better (not easier) for many times my children will ask for forgiveness without my coercing them to do so- they are convicted of the Holy Spirit to do it not because someone else has forced them to.
And also the Catholic thing about …
worshipping the “Queen of Heaven” (Jer. 7:18; Jer. 44:17,18,19 & 25; Luke 11:27-28; John 2:5)!
David, would you please explain what you mean by this: “Isn’t it interesting how God allowed Satan to give all his lies as the Word was being written so the Lord has refuted it all in eternally authoritative black & white! I love how, for example, He dealt with Mormonism in Galatians 1:6-9, & many others!” Where does Mormonism fit into that Galatians passage? I don’t see where the Bible specifically mentions Mormonism.
Jan, how do the Catholics forbid marrying and the eating of certain foods? Are you referring to priests being required to remain single? My Catholic brother-in-law and his family eat shrimp and other shell fish by the truck loads! Do some Catholics refrain from eating these foods? That must mean they only eat certain fish during Lent. When I was in the cult, there was a woman, who would not eat shell fish and other “forbidden” foods listed in the Old Testament. She obviously hadn’t read the New Testament, where the Lord declared cleansed that which was unclean under the Old Testament law. Acts 10. The woman in the cult was also single, but I don’t think it was because she believed in the forbidding of marriage.
Bruce, thanks for that list of biblical teachers. I listened to part of one of Dr. Chay’s messages this morning. It was good, but the audio was so poor that I only listened to about half of the message. The website, where Chay’s audio messages are, promotes other teachers and evangelists. I checked out one website, and they listed Ray Comfort’s Way of the Master on their resource list. Seems that the false teachers worm their way into alot of places.
Isn’t it interesting how God allowed Satan to give all his lies as the Word was being written so the Lord has refuted it all in eternally authoritative black & white! I love how, for example, He dealt with Mormonism in Galatians 1:6-9, & many others!
That’s true. And also the Catholic thing about forbidding marriage and the eating of certain foods. Nothing new under the sun, huh?
JanH
Well I almost fell for these lies so hopefully many other believers will see the truth. I do know that the Lord has all this that is happening in His Hands and will take care of His own- He did for me and my family. Funny thing is that with all this happening and not having a church I have been at peace. I know that the Lord Jesus Christ will set us on a firm foundation and provide a place for us to be with other believers. I will also be praying for you guys – it is a lonely place to be at times.
Bro. David,
Thanks for dropping in again.. good to hear from you. Yes, we are all susceptible – but with God’s Word and the fellowship of our wonderful friends here, I pray error will be less likely.
I have seen several fellow Bible College friends veer off into Calvinism, LS and Emergent teaching.. and one can only guess why.
We must continue to pray for each other because the Tempter is always plying his trade and lies.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Bro. Jack, Thank you for alerting us to this. One of the saddest statements I believe you made was that folks who attended the same grace-based Bible college as you did are falling for this type thing. I thought to myself, & now wanted to kind of “think out loud” that it seems often that this type thing catches steam to begin with off sheer excitement, & some are caught up in it before they can really ponder what it’s all about. I have to admit that I have done such in the past, & of course I’m never beyond falling again, though I’m thankful that the Lord has helped to build my faith to the point it doesn’t happen as easily. We have to be on guard, the Word of God alone has the truth! Isn’t it interesting how God allowed Satan to give all his lies as the Word was being written so the Lord has refuted it all in eternally authoritative black & white! I love how, for example, He dealt with Mormonism in Galatians 1:6-9, & many others! God bless & keep on keeping on!!
We need a Free Grace TEA party.
Great idea!
Hi Jan,
Thanks for your expressions of kindness. I, too, have pondered of late and prayed about the need to ratchet up the debate against false teaching in the churches and the need to declare the pure gospel of grace. I don’t know whether YouTube is the right vehicle, but I am with you 100% that more needs to be done. I have learned so much over the past few years about the issues mentioned above from you, Jan, and from Jack; I have also learned much and been challenged by others like Marcella, Chris, Pearl, Faith, John, Lou M., David W., and Tom C. I continue to study the issues on my own as well.
Just to encourage the folks, there are some solid Free Grace Gospel voices already out there like Lou Martuneac (In Defense of the Gospel), Dr. Tom Cucuzza (Voice of Assurance), Dr. Dave Anderson (Grace School of Theology), Dr. Charles Bing (GraceLife Ministries), Dr. Fred Chay (GraceLine Ministries), Dr. James Scudder (Quentin Road Bible Baptist Church), Dr. Michael Halsey (Free Grace Seminary) and Robert Congdon (Congdon Ministries).
Jan,
Your statement: “Though I can’t prove it, it seems to me that all of this is the result of a deliberate, intentional, MILITANT OPPOSITION to the Free Grace gospel. This did not happen by accident. It was done on purpose with intent (I think).
Shirley and I were talking about that at supper tonight (dinner to you Yankees). It seems in the older churches it creeps inside by deception and bubbles up into all facets and outreaches of the ministry. Then their brain-dirtied young folks go to liberal seminaries and start their own churches which are automatically inculcated with false doctrine from the get-go — and it grows exponentially from there.
What to do? I guess we are doing all we can do in our little niche.. with all of you helping.
YouTube is not an option for me.. What!! An 82 year old bald, almost blind, almost deaf ExPreacherMan whose voice has become so raspy my Docs have to say “Huh?” several times to find out what I am saying. Naaa that wouldn’t work except maybe for centenarians.
But if y’all want to try, we’ll advertise and promote it here. 😎
Maybe we could convince Bruce to do a once-a-month YouTube.
I suppose we just keep on Sharing the Bible’s Free Grace Gospel and warning others of the lies, not just LS but all sorts of errors — that are growing like Topsy!
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
If more true believers would stand up for their beliefs, we would have more churches that unabashadly teach the truth.
John-
The need for this cannot be overstated. And it’s because the seminaries have failed in this that we have this problem now. Plus, pastors must get themselves on the internet. Look at MacArthur’s people. Phil Johnson has at least two blogs (I think) and there are so many others. There is such a need for pastors and assistant pastors to get on the net like they do. (Thank you Jack and Bruce!!!) There are so few right now. Plus, we need blogs that are not so much about opposing the LS gospel as just plain sharing the FG gospel. We need them in droves. Even You Tube channels, though I can understand why someone would not want to go that route. But if you’re a glutton for punishment…
I don’t know what needs to happen. But something must happen. And it needs to happen at high levels. We have believers languishing everywhere for lack of sound churches. My husband and I are likely going to be joining the ranks of the dis-churched too. That is not certain at this point, but it seems a very real possibility.
But here is the thing. Though I can’t prove it, it seems to me that all of this is the result of a deliberate, intentional, MILITANT OPPOSITION to the Free Grace gospel. This did not happen by accident. It was done on purpose with intent (I think). John’s experience with his pastor only shows the militance behind it. It must be met, as John said, by believers standing up but it must also be met at higher levels by professors standing up and pastors standing up, and not just in their pulpits but online too. There is real potential for cost at these levels, especially the professors. I have no idea what would be required. But we have to ask if the gospel is worth it? Because if we don’t do it, they WILL take over. And we should know that Satan is all about opposing the grace of God, especially at the point of the gospel. Paul was persecuted for real over the gospel. If he still preached circumcision then why did he suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.
We need a Free Grace TEA party.
JanH
May the truth of God’s Word bring to light the deeds of darkness and may all false teaching and false doctrine be exposed. The Lord does expose the deeds of darkness, and He will destroy all that is in opposition to the truth of His Word. The Satanic foe’s days are very limited. Praise the LORD!
John, good for you to stand up for the truth! Yes, Pastors will become angry when they find out you don’t agree with them! I have found that out, myself, as well! I know there are some churches, whose Pastors won’t let me back in, but I don’t want back in! I sometimes see people from a church I used to be a member of. They glare at me and speak harshly to me. The religious people are like that. Wasn’t it the religious zealots, who threw accusations and criticism at Jesus, plotting how they could kill him? Seems that the religious people are no different today. They want to kill the Christians, and they are a big threat to Christianity.
Pastors, who have adhered to and taught false doctrine for years, will not budge when you tell them that you oppose their false teaching. They will do some fancy footwork and try to justify their side as being biblical by taking scriptures out of context. I tried to reason with a MO Lutheran Pastor last year in regards to infant baptism and communion, which they teach offers salvation, according to Martin Luther’s doctrine in his catechism. That’s a big LIE! The MO Pastor refused to discuss baptism and communion with me. Deception continues…
The one world church is making its mark right before our eyes. My workplace is aligning with some organizations and government entities which would lead to the one world government.
John and Faith, I’m right there with you in trying to find a biblical church to attend. Before I started visiting churches, I had no idea there was so much false doctrine and false gospels being taught in the churches. It’s astounding! I’ve been discouraged, but it’s a bad thing to fall into. Praise the Lord that we can still read His Bible, where absolute truth is!
Looks like to me that these conferences are a setup for a ecumenical unity of churches and a global OWC.
That’s what I think too.
JanH
Faith,
We feel badly that you and your husband cannot find a church — but that seems to be the story of so many of our friends who meet here. You know you are welcome even when/if you do find a church. And I just pray that since we have been tagged with that mighty word “paradigm” we will live up to your expectations. 😎
We will continue to preach God’s Word clearly and in context, our Savior Jesus Christ with Him and His offer of salvation as the object. Likewise we will attempt to expose the wolves in sheep’s clothing (about whom Pearl spoke above) that are taking over and twisting the Church and its message. We certainly appreciate your input.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
What I meant by solid are those who are mature and desire to study God’s Word and trust in Christ fully for His work in our lives.
As i have said before I am really blessed to find such a blog to be able to converse on these spiritual and cultural “paradigms” ( I just had to put that word in there because it is a favorite with the “new” church).
My husband and I do not have a church because everywhere we go we run into the same problem, so we are asking the Lord what to do. 😦
This is also becoming a problem with solid Christians- many are being ousted out of their church or have to leave because of false teaching. So it is refreshing to come here.
Bruce – that was a good connection you made with the economic and spiritual goals of the One World Order. My husband said the same thing the other day. Remember a while back Rick Warren called it the 3 legged stool- government, church, and business.
Pearl Thanks,
But think about it… wolves in sheep clothing DO have fangs.
Too sad we see this is so prevalent in so-called “main-line” churches.
Bruce,
Great detailed analysis of the last days, One World Church/government ecumenical order mentioned by Faith in her comment. Things are moving right along per the Book of Revelation, Daniel and Ezekiel.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Hi John:
I’m glad that you found a solid Bible study group. I pray that you will also find a good Bible teaching church. Blessings on you!
Faith:
Your comments were very insightful and helpful. You caused me to consider this conference in a new light. If you are correct that the Catalyst Conference is just another step toward the end-times one-world church (it looks as though you are correct in your assessment), then the business emphasis fits in completely. Revelation 13 and 18 speak of two interrelated, interconnected movements: The beast out of the sea—a political, economic movement and the beast out of the earth—a one-world religious movement. God will eventually destroy them both.
So now I see this conference in a new light. The “business” emphasis is no accident. It appears to be by design to bring together the economic and religious communities into joint discussion and working together. And the lure for Christians is that some of the speakers do say some helpful things, like Dave Ramsey who helps people to establish budgets and to live within their financial means.
Thanks, Faith, for your insights and thanks, Jack, for bringing up this important topic.
I don’t know about Jim Daly per se, but Focus on the Family, by way of association and promotion, has gone down the contemplative path. And the so-called “Truth Project” ought to be avoided as well for its ecumenical leanings.
John, I’m sorry to hear that the church you’d hoped to find refuge in turned out to be LS, but kudos to you for approaching the preacher with boldness. His defensive reaction boasted of works, didn’t they (“how dare you tell me!!”). Jack is right: when cornered, they can’t help but reveal their fangs (Huh!…I didn’t know sheep had fangs…).
Bruce,
Thanks for checking out the site.. There are other speakers and sponsors I thought to include who are questionable:
The movie “Blue Like Jazz” by questionable New Age author, Donald Miller.
The Focus on The Family group is becoming Contemplative (I’ve had a run-in with them on doctrinal issues).
And then, several years ago I was trying to help a relative find a church in Birmingham. She asked me to check out David Platt and his church. I emailed and then spoke to him in person. He is a well educated, smooth talker but I warned her about his false teaching (His church was Southern Baptist but changed their name to appeal to the younger, hip crowd).
John,
Even though Southern Baptist Churches (SBC) profess to be “independent” and self governing, they all seem to hold fast to the SBC statement of faith which includes those terrible (and recently confirmed) false doctrine statements you mention.
As you say, “if more believers would stand up for the Truth…..”
I fear too many don’t really know Bible Truth — they are mostly spoon fed their church teaching.
Faith,
Very discerning of you. Your statement, “ministries are hurting and have to keep up by joining other celebrity preachers and secular venues. This definitely compromises the gospel- yes they may be feeding the poor and helping the orphans, but they are leaving the reason why we do these things- Christ.”,
Yes, if they ever had it, they have “lost their First Love, (Jesus Christ).” (Revelation 2:4) That is the tragic reality!!! So we continue trying to expose the lies by sharing the truth of salvation by Grace alone through Faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
Thanks to all of our readers and friends for your help in our plea for Biblical Truth and discernment.. The insight and wisdom of our friends here make this effort for the Lord vitally interesting and helpful.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Looks like to me that these conferences are a setup for a ecumenical unity of churches and a global OWC.
I just recently saw one from Calvary Chapel that included Mark Driscoll, Rick Warren, Franklin Graham, etc. all praising Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel for being a movement that changed the world in the ’60s. Mark Driscoll was a surprise because he is Calvinist and Calvary has repeatedly been against Calvinism. Rick Warren also made me quite ill that he was included.
I may be wrong, but I think since the fallout in the economy more and more ministries are hurting and have to keep up by joining other celebrity preachers and secular venues. This definitely compromises the gospel- yes they may be feeding the poor and helping the orphans, but they are leaving the reason why we do these things- Christ. None of these works will save people, but this is the message that they are promoting. It is sad because I see that it is a social gospel that is being preached and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ who saves those who are lost in sin (death).
I am in a Bible study with a small group of men from work, all of whom profess to believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone, but belong to or attend churches with a strong LS bent.
I thought I had found a good Southern Baptist church, based on the statement of faith on its website. But, the pastor quoted Macarthur, had links to sites with LS content and said that he agreed with the Southern Baptist Convention statement of faith. The SBC statement of faith includes both “turn from sin” and “commitment of the entire personality to Christ as Lord and Savior” in their definitions of repentance and faith, respectively. I chose to leave this church after discussing my concerns with the pastor. He got really angry and told me how many people he had led to the Lord, etc.
If more true believers would stand up for their beliefs, we would have more churches that unabashadly teach the truth.
Hi Jack,
Timely post! I agree with you and Jan that the organizers of this conference had no business allowing a radical activist like West to speak.
I took a brief look at the conference site at some of the speakers. A few of them seemed to be okay, like Priscilla Shirer, a Dallas Seminary graduate who runs the “Going Beyond Ministries.” She speaks to Christian women’s groups; her statement of faith looks solid and she has spoken out strongly against “Oprah” theology. Jim Daly is probably alright; he’s president of Focus on the Family. Several of the speakers probably belonged at a business seminar, rather than a “Christian” conference, like Jim Collins and Dave Ramsey. Several of the younger speakers seemed to be of the Chan/Driscoll lordship faith ilk. One of them was David Platt who wrote the extreme lordship salvation book “Radical.” There was one touching story of one of the speakers, an African immigrant who recycles hotel soap for use in third-world nations. I really didn’t recognize most of the rest of the speakers. All in all, it looks like a mixed bag. I guess that the thrust of the conference has something to do with excellence in business and life. I didn’t sense any emphasis on the biblical gospel.
Jan,
I wish I could answer that question. Seems those “leaders” have not a clue who West is.. nor Chan nor Driscoll. Pitiful!!!!
Marcee, thanks for praying for my friends — probably more that I realize are there. These are folks who studied at the same Bible College as I. What happened, I do not know.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
The leader of the cult I used to be in held the Financial Peace University seminars at his “church.” I never went because Ramsey made me uncomfortable, but people in that cult were excited and professed some financial freedom and debt relief after going through Financial Peace.
The false prophets gather with their own kind. Yet some, who you would think would adhere to biblically sound doctrine, are compromising by teaming up with these wolves. It’s astounding! Francis Chan seems to be getting around. He was just here a month ago for Lifelight Festival, the largest “Christian” music festival in the US. Lifelight is ecumenical, and the founder brings in false teachers. Huge crowds of people flock to Lifelight each year, screaming music fans, people listening to heretics giving glory to themselves and pronouncing a false god and a false gospel. Thousands are led on a journey straight to hell.
Whatever this “catalyst” is in GA, I don’t want to know, and I’d never go near it. I used to attend meetings that were led by false teachers, and I always had the feeling something wasn’t right and that I should not be there. Praise God for getting me out of that mess and away from those wolves!
Philippians 3:2, “Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.”
2 Timothy 4:3-4, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
Jack, I will pray for your friends. May the Holy Spirit convict them, and may they come to know the truth!
Can somebody explain to me why these men are having a conference with Cornell West?????!!!!!!!!!
JanH