Discussing Lordship Salvation and Calvinism is Not Theater.

Please forgive my laxity in posting.. I have had some serious problems with my lungs and my last “good” eye.. but will continue to post as long as I am able, Lord willing.

~~~~~~~~

I have noted recently that some proponents of Lordship Salvation and
different shades of Calvinism seem to think opposition to their position is
simply theological theater, a lark, a passing fancy, a nuisance.

We must realize that what we discuss here is not theater but reality with dire consequences, especially for those who hold the theory that God’s Gift of Eternal life can, in any way, be gained or kept by behavior, good works or simply “because God chose me to be saved.” Such teaching is false and contrary to God’s Word. God says, “Whosoever believeth,” and it is a choice!

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth
in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
John 3:16

And likewise, I grieve for anyone who embraces the theory that God’s Gift of
Eternal life is merely a temporal probation (“salvation” — but not really) that can be removed, lost, thrown away or abandoned. There are some who contend that salvation can be lost by any person who at one time received God’s Free Gift of salvation by choice, made the honest, one-time, personal decision to simply trust exclusively in Jesus Christ alone for his salvation. The Biblical word for
Eternal Life is from the Greek aionios “perpetual (also used of past
time, or past and future as well) :- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world
(began)
.” Strong’s Greek 166

It is bordering on blasphemy for such famous proponents of Lordship Salvation, Calvinist John MacArthur to teach: “Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything.” (MacArthur, The Gospel According to Jesus, p. 78.)

Please, never allow anyone to convince you that your salvation, present or future depends on “forsaking everything … giving your all to Jesus .. following Him in service, Jesus is Lord of all or not Lord at all, etc.” These are lies, straight from the Great Deciever.

Trusting Jesus Christ alone as your Savior means you simply decide to believe and rely completely on His death and resurrection as being totally sufficient to have paid the death penalty price for the sin debt that you owe (we all do). That means you no longer rely upon any of your good works, nor your church, your
Pastor, your mentor — nothing or no one but Jesus Christ and Him crucified for you. That is God’s Grace.

As the Apostle Paul said to the carnal Christians, believers in Christ at
Corinth:

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” 1 Corinthians 2:1-2

Let us speak the Truth, words easy to be understood. We are talking about God’s irrevocable contract to every believer, sealed with the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ, testified by God’s Holy Spirit indwelling and sealing every believer eternally. This
contract is dependent completely upon God Himself keeping His promise, His Covenant. Christ Himself said:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
John 10:28

God will keep His promise and once you decide to trust Jesus Christ for your Eternity, it is out of your hands — and completely in His — eternally.

Aren’t you glad it depends upon Him and His faithfulness and not upon you?

The Lord is faithful, we rarely are.

How to be absolutely sure of
Heaven.

45 responses to “Discussing Lordship Salvation and Calvinism is Not Theater.

  1. EXCELLENT point JanH about being vs. doing!

  2. Thanks Jan,

    Welcome back — and y’all have a wonderful celebration of Christ’s Resurrection every day.. He IS Risen!!
    Also thanks for that additional analysis of Repentance. Well done. As I said above, agreeing with David, “Once we see the Truth of Salvation in Jesus alone it seems impossible anyone could believe the lie of LS teaching, doesn’t it?”
    Yet, sadly they do…

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  3. Hi Jack-

    We are back from a week away and I am just getting caught up with all my blogs. I am reading this thread (backwards!) and just got to this from you, on the 18th:

    The problem is that we are sinners by nature, inherited from Adam.. so whether we “sin a little or a lot” is not the question, we all qualify to be separated from God by our very sin nature. We need to understand that we cannot “turn from sin or sins” to solve the problem but to trust Jesus Christ who offered His life as the payment for our inherited (and daily) sin debt. That is so often misrepresented.

    This is an excellent explanation of why the “turn from sin” view of repentance does not work. You can only (theoretically and sometimes actually) turn from/stop doing what you DO. You cannot turn from/stop being what you ARE. This is why we need our salvation to be the extrinsic work of Another, Who IS what we need to be in order for God to be pleased. We are called to own our sinfulness and neediness before the thrice holy God-to take His view or agree with Him about our condition. Then we are called to accept His provision for our need-the work of His only begotten Son who died for us on the cross, paying that wage that is due our sin.

    These things are fundamentally, and essentially a change of mind. Not MERELY a change of mind, as so many LSers present it. It is an absolutely essential part of our salvation. We must understand what our problem is, at least to the degree that we realize we need a Savior and are hopeless without one. Otherwise, the gospel message has no relevance, since the gospel is God’s response to our need. But from the position of understanding ourselves to be in need, we are then free to accept the gift that God has given in His Son.

    But to say that repentance means turning from sin as in intending not to practice sin anymore, or shifting loyalties, or however it is similarly presented is impossible once one sees that what one IS is sinful, and not just that what one DOES is sinful.

    JanH

    Happy Resurrection Sunday, all! He is risen indeed! 🙂

  4. Bro. Jack,

    Thanks! Yes that’s an excellent link. I agree that it seems unbelievable anyone could fall for Commitment Salvation after seeing the real thing.
    SISTER Vee, I apologize, I feel stupid! You are a very good writer, & I do appreciate your faithfulness. God Bless.

  5. Vee,

    I had no doubt that you are a wonderful young Christian lady. Your writing reflects that.

    Steve,
    Spurgeon is Ok as long as his teaching is in context — but as I said above — he and I have disagreements.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  6. David, I’m a girl 🙂 I wonder why it is that most people on the internet think that I am a guy… too funny 😀

  7. Please excuse my typing, it should read, “I will post another quote from Spurgeon”

    Steve

  8. Hi Jack

    Thanks for your reply I found it informative & very useful. I will post another
    quote about Spurgeon.

    It has been my earnest endeavor ever since I have preached the Word, never to keep back a single doctrine that I believe to be taught of God. It is time that we had done with the old and rusty systems that have so long curbed the freeness of religious speech.
    The Arminian trembles to go an inch beyond Arminius or Wesley, and many a Calvinist refers to John Gill or John Calvin as an ultimate authority. It is time that the systems were broken up, and that there was sufficient grace in all our hearts to believe everything taught in God’s Word, whether it was taught by either of these men or not.
    If God teaches it, it is enough. If it is not in the Word, away with it! Away with it! But if it be in the Word, agreeable or disagreeable, systematic or disorderly, I believe it.
    — Charles Haddon Spurgeon, in a sermon delivered at Exeter Hall, London (March 1860)

  9. Bro. David,

    Thanks for the kind words.
    Once we see the Truth of Salvation in Jesus alone it seems impossible anyone could believe the lie of LS teaching, doesn’t it?

    BTW, I thought I had BBN on my sidebar all the time — but it was your personal web site instead. Thanks to Pearl, BBN is now there. Is that the best link?

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  10. Bro. Jack,

    Praying for you. I appreciate bro. Vee’s kind spirit in his discussions, & I am praying for him & his Dad as well. I can’t imagine how hard it must be to see his dad who seemed to be, & possibly was a believer all this brother’s life & then in the end to swerve away. But I must say that it is possible that he was “turned off” or away from genuine salvation through the false message of commitment salvation, & had the honesty to admit he couldn’t do it, as none can. How is this Good News? Fully submit, turn around & do right, then you may be saved? The Great News of the true Gospel is Jesus has DONE it asll & we trust Him alone! salvation is free & clear & the Greatest News on the planet! God Bless you dear brothers! BTW, thank you Pearl for the great encouraging words regarding the BBNBI!

  11. Absolutely genius illustration, Bruce! Clear as crystal.

    Thanks so much for posting it.

  12. Bruce,

    Thanks so much.
    Great illustration… and even quotes some of JMac’s philosophy.. Too bad more LS folks don’t get it. That illustration IS Lordship “Salvation.”

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  13. Hello Pastor Jack:
    I read a priceless satire of MacArthur’s book “The Gospel Acc. to Jesus” on Amazon reviews (under responses to Lou Martuneac’s one-star review). I trust that the writer will not mind my sharing his review as I think that he has really nailed the contradictory nature of LS teaching. (Perhaps you have seen this narrative already).

    “Saved by grace alone” says:

    Lou, I personally would like to extend an offer to every Lordship believer in here. I have a $1000.00 free gift that I would like to give to every Lordship believer in here right now. However, you must mow my lawn, wash my dishes, clean my car, shovel my snow in the winter, wash windows, clean my house and if there is any reserve in your obedience will only prove that you were never serious about receiving that free $1000.00 gift that I am offering. Unless you are willing to surrender all for me then don’t bother seeking the free $1000.00 gift. I have gone through much trouble to buy the best soap, the best lawnmower, the best cleaning products for you because I love you and given my all for you. Remember, my free gift is both free yet costly. I hope that one day I can give you the $1000.00 free gift only after I say, “you GOOD and FAITHFUL SERVANT!” I will not give you the free gift if you even cherish one thing contrary to my wishes. You must endure to the end to be paid or you will prove that you were never my true servant to begin with. It doesn’t matter how hard you have been working in the past but it is what you are doing today that counts. Are you faithfully serving me today? Then you can be sure that the free gift is yours but if tomorrow you fail in your service then that will prove that you never were part of my crew. Do you want that free $1000.00 gift?? Then get busy!! I do not have lazy and indifferent people in my crew. You might have “carnal ways” about you but you cannot simply be lazy as I would never offer my free gift to you.

    This is my view of Lordship salvation since I used to believe that damnable heresy years back. Praise God for saving me from that non-sense!!

  14. Faith,

    You mentioned a phrase which I appreciate and meant to quote speaking of salvation in Jesus Christ: “This is NOT a life-long salvation process as Lordship Salvation/Calvinism teaches or an Arminianist teaches (which I believe both teach works, but with different methods); this [our life in Jesus Christ] is a process of maturing in the FAITH.” [My note]

    Exactly right, salvation is not a process but choosing to accept God’s Gift of eternal life — and so true.. Thank you.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  15. Faith,

    Yes, the freedom of Christ and the freedom IN Christ!!

    In Jesus Christ happily and eternally, Jack

  16. Exactly.

    I understand this more each and everyday and enjoy the freedom
    of Christ! His gift of a free will allows us to know Him more intimately- without this free will we would only be mechanical beings without the capacity of love and intimate friendship with a Savior, our God who freely gave of Himself for us.

  17. Faith,

    Thanks for visiting.

    Yes, God’s Holy Spirit guides every believer in Christ 24/7 and we have the choice to follow and obey.
    John 16:13
    “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: …”
    He guides — we follow.

    You said the “Holy Spirit has and is changing me to be more like Him ( Praise the Lord!!).” The Scripture that so well illustrates this for believers in Christ is His plea through Peter:
    “But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.” 2 Peter 3:18

    We are asked (not commanded) to grow in Grace.. Amazingly He has given us the choice to grow and when we do we will grow in knowledge of our Savior!
    We voluntarily submit to Him and His Word that we may grow and mature.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  18. Jack
    Enjoyed reading this post. I was saved as a child of nine, even though I did not understand the full implications of sin (being not as mature) I did understand I DID need a Savior; I was a sinner; and Jesus was God and He died for me. Basically, I chose by faith to believe in Jesus Christ. Over the years, the Lord has shown me my sinful nature even more and THROUGH the HOLY SPIRIT ( I emphasize Holy Spirit) has and is changing me to be more like Him ( Praise the Lord!!). This is NOT a life-long salvation process as Lordship Salvation/Calvinism teaches or an Arminianist teaches (which I believe both teach works, but with different methods); this is a process of maturing in the FAITH. As did Abraham who was credited salvation by faith and Lot who was declared righteous by God even though his outward works were less to be desired.
    I am continually amazed at what the Lord does in my own life to cleanse my heart of my sinful nature THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT (again I emphasize the Holy Spirit) NOT by my own works, but by true repentance brought on by the Holy Spirit. This I know to be true because I am a witness of His working in my own life ALL for His glory and not of my own.

  19. Steve, thanks for dropping by — and thanks again to Vee for inviting,

    First, Spurgeon was a great preacher but I have found some disagreement with him. I have never seen this statement from him but such would deny the inerrant nature of Scripture. The Bible will not contradict itself — and God is not confused about His offer of Salvation. Contrary to Calvinists, salvation is free and eternal by choice to those who believe in Jesus Christ and cannot be lost as Armenians believe.

    Yes, “Repentance and faith” are needed — specifically a change of mind from trusting one’s “good” works, church, behavior, religion etc to, instead, trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. This is absolute. Jesus is the only Way of salvation — not by any works of righteousness we may do. (Titus 3:5)

    The philosophy of Arminianism is that one must believe in Jesus for salvation but they then say we are able in some way to lose what He has promised, Eternal Life. This is patently contrary to God’s Word; Jesus said He will give us Eternal Life and we shall NEVER perish. Christ Himself said,
    “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” John 10:28

    If we believed Arminius, we would have to conclude that Jesus Christ’s words were false. Impossible!

    You said Spurgeon was attacked for “preaching sovereign election.”

    First we must realize that the words “sovereign election” is a phrase concocted by Reformed folks, Calvinists and used by many. There is no such phrase in the oldest texts.. and certainly not in the KJV. True, some of the newer paraphrases or transmogrifications of the Bible have plugged in the word “sovereign” instead of “Lord” (“despotes” in the Greek = absolute ruler or despot). I believe the word sovereign has been adopted to imply that God is so “sovereign” that man has no choice in faith for his eternity, claiming instead that folks are “elected” for either Heaven or hell — a strict Calvinist teaching — and false.

    In most cases, “chosen” and “elect” are the same Greek word, “elektos” or a derivation thereof which, in context, does not mean chosen or elect to be saved but elected or chosen for a specific purpose or service, just as we elect or choose certain people to represent us in our government. God has chosen all believers (because we ARE believers) to be conformed to His image, to serve and represent Him in His Righteous government. Just like politicians who waver, some believers choose to serve Him and others choose not to. Either way we believers are still His elected representatives (not for salvation but to serve).

    Remember, Israel was/is called the “elect and chosen of God”.. but it was for His purpose — to bring through them the Messiah and His Word but they all still had the choice to believe in the Messiah or reject Him (which many did and still do today). Also Judas was “chosen” by Jesus to be a disciple (to learn and serve) but there is no evidence he ever believed in Jesus Christ as his Savior:
    “Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” John 6:70

    Steve, a change of mind for a child can be from a belief in no one to Someone, the Lord Jesus Christ. An adult can be the same but usually adults have preconceived ideas of faith.. so the adult might change his mind from nothing or “his own wonderful self, behavior, religion, church, etc” which he thinks will save him to the Truth which is believing in the Only One, Jesus Christ, who has paid the death penalty for him and will save him eternally.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  20. Is this a point of contention? What is faith, after all? All people have faith in someone or something, but what good does it do them if it’s not placed on the right Object?

    Most people have a conscience, but a conscience moved toward conviction and guilt without faith on the finished work of Jesus Christ is also useless.

    I guess I don’t understand the question.

  21. steve ascension

    One other thought
    When does the “change of mind” enter into the realm of faith for a child & adult?

    Steve..

  22. steve ascension

    Hi Jack

    Came across these quotes about Spurgeon

    Spurgeon was attacked by ‘hyper-Calvinists’ for preaching the necessity for repentance and faith, yet he was also attacked by Arminians for preaching sovereign election. Spurgeon said he preached both because the Bible taught both.

    Your thought appreciated

    Vee suggested I come here

    Steve

  23. Dear Vee,

    Your statement is a succinct explanation of the difference between free Grace and Lordship Salvation!!
    You said, ” ‘a should do’ and failing will not affect our salvation because of Once Saved Always Saved [YESSSS!!]. A ‘must do or else’ and failing will forever damn us.”

    Great point — I wish I could have been as succinct in my rambling above. Thanks again!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  24. Mr. Perry,

    Thanks for your encouraging note. We believe Chan is dangerous because his philosophy makes one wonder.. “am I doing enough — did I do enough — and when is enough, enough”? His is a “must serve salvation” which is no salvation at all.

    I am so happy you do understand God’s Grace.. and thanks for your testimony. It encourages all of us.
    Subscribe to the Blog and you will have opportunity to read all new posts. We pray God will bless you in your studies.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  25. Just reading my above comment, it was unclear. I was in the middle of chasing my Grandson around while trying to comment.

    What I meant to say is that ‘a should do’ and failing will not affect our salvation because of Once Saved Always Saved. A ‘must do or else’ and failing will forever damn us.

    Vee

  26. Mr. Stacy A. Perry

    I want to thank you. I have recently completed a study by Chan, and from the first few pages on I felt uncomfortable. I’m a new believer and wasn’t sure why I “felt” the way I did. After reading many of your articles I had a starting point to read further. I’m starting to understand why I believe what I believe.

  27. Okay… now I get it. ‘Lordship Salvation’ is a must do, not a should do according to those who endorse it. Now I understand that it is a works based salvation. But a ‘should do’ is not because of Once Saved Always Saved.

    I just wanted to be absolutely clear on this. 🙂

  28. Pingback: Godly Sorrow « Living Journey

  29. Vee,

    Interesting question — how is that different from Lordship Salvation?
    Titus 2: 12b: “….teaching us that, denying [renouncing, rejecting] ungodliness and worldly lusts, we SHOULD live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.”

    As we learn and are taught (growing in Grace) we certainly should live soberly, righteously and Godly.

    However, the LS folks differ is that they would insert MUST instead of SHOULD. They say you MUST or one of our higher teachers (MacArthur, Chan, et al) would deem you unsaved.
    As John MacArthur says in one of his many LS quotes: “Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything.” (MacArthur, The Gospel According to Jesus, p. 78.)
    A lie straight from the Deceiver himself. We don’t forsake everything — we simply trust Jesus as Savior. God’s Grace and His Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth — and we have a choice to follow that or reject. But once a believer, we will not be lost but as we reject His guidance He will chastise and discipline – guaranteed.

    So let us read and understand exactly what Bible verses say and then be Bereans as we study.. compare Scripture with Scripture against what someone preaches or writes.

    I cannot speak to your Dad’s drift away from Christianity — because I don’t know exactly in whom, what or why was his faith. I would like to sit down and talk to him and I may have abetter idea. 😉
    Will continue to pray for both of you.

    Vee, sure do appreciate your interest and thanks for honoring us with your questions. I just pray we will do them justice.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  30. Jack you say…

    “Godly sorrow worketh repentance” does not mean that a Godly sorrow IS repentance (a change of mind) — but I would say is one of many things can lead a person to a change of mind (repentance).

    I see your point. In that paper you asked me to read it says…

    “First, then, repentance is not to be confounded with penitence. . . penitence is simply sorrow for sin. . . Nowhere is man exhorted to feel a
    certain amount of sorrow for his sins in order to
    come to Christ.”

    I see that there is a clear difference between a Godly sorrow and a worldly one.

    Now I rejoice , not that ye were made sorry , but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2 Cor 7:9,10

    So, in regards to my Dad, he most likely never had “Godly sorrow” because of his statement to me saying that there is no such thing as sin in the way the Church has understood it. People should act in a way that social coherence is advanced to better a society. So, there may be two types of people. One type that understand “Godly sorrow” which is where they understand that they have sinned against God and He isn’t their Lord so therefore change their mind and start to live IN him. Then the second type who don’t have “Godly sorrow” but sorrow of the world which does not bring repentance/change of mind towards God and leads to eternal death.

    Vee

  31. Sorry, my last paragraph with my questions was not to be italicized.

  32. I read this…

    It is only after one has come to Christ by faith
    that he, as a member of God’s family, is commanded
    to change his life. Such changes undoubtedly involve turning from or leaving certain sinful habits.
    In fact, the Bible makes that very clear. For instance,
    Titus 2:11, 12: For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying
    [renouncing, rejecting] ungodliness and worldly lusts,
    we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the
    present age.

    Which is what I agree totally with. And just to be clear, this whole Lordship Salvation thing is different to the above how?

  33. I totally get what you are saying Jack. That repentance is changing ones mind about who Christ is. On that we agree.
    On other things… not so sure. But I do agree that you are my brother in Christ and I will continue to search out scriptures and take on what you have said, and others too.

    Thanks again

    Vee

  34. Thanks Pearl,

    I pray I have been kind and gentle with your (and now my) friend Vee. 😉 I appreciate her questions.

    I think Dr. Seymour’s PDF on Repentance (listed above) is one of the best short summaries ever. His book also listed above “All About Repentance” is one of the best and most complete I have ever seen.. and the book and PDF can be in hand and read any time.

    I will write Dick to see how to acquire his newest release.

    Thanks for your suggestions.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  35. Dear Vee,

    In a couple of words, Yes, one must know he has a need for the Savior. How much is probably not for us to wonder — since a child of 5, 6 or 7 can trust Jesus Christ as his Savior — and most at that age do not realize they are desperate sinners. The problem is that we are sinners by nature, inherited from Adam.. so whether we “sin a little or a lot” is not the question, we all qualify to be separated from God by our very sin nature. We need to understand that we cannot “turn from sin or sins” to solve the problem but to trust Jesus Christ who offered His life as the payment for our inherited (and daily) sin debt. That is so often misrepresented.

    Your statement, “repentance unto life” again simply means a change of mind about Who the Savior is thereby trusting Him alone for eternity and Life. Maybe your Dad never really understood and his mind was corrupted from the simplicity that is in Jesus Christ.
    “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:3 (The Gospel is so simple many folks miss it).

    “Godly sorrow worketh repentance” does not mean that a Godly sorrow IS repentance (a change of mind) — but I would say is one of many things can lead a person to a change of mind (repentance).

    We will be praying for you and your Dad that he can see the truth. Ask him if he will read the link on my Blog header if you print it out for him, Eternal Life For You to see if that simplicity is what he once believed. If he ever once believed it, he can never lose it!!

    I was turned off to false “Christianity” by folks who told me I had to change my life, quit sinning, etc to be saved or stay saved. I rebelled – and maybe your Dad did too. The Truth SHALL make you FREE. ETERNALLY!!!
    “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”John 8:32

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  36. Hi Jack, Vee (and others),

    I found this post of yours just beautiful. Thank you for writing from the bottom of your heart. I’ve been blessed.

    (Vee is my precious sister and friend whose blog is one of the more thoughtful and discerning ones I’ve encountered, and her genuine love for truth and respect for folks with opposing opinions remains consistent and is a good testimony to me and others.)

    Hard questions, Vee, and ones I’ve asked as well. During one of the previous (and very instructive & enlightening) discussions on this blog, David Wyatt offered to someone a sermon series on repentance available at BBN Bible Institute (it’s free). I listened to the first sermon and, already, it cleared up a lot of mis-information I’ve received over the years. I highly recommend checking that out. Speaking of which, I need to get back to the series myself!

    Here’s that link, for any who are interested in delving into a greater understanding of the various types of repentance:
    http://www.bbnradio.org/WCM4/BiblebrInstitute/BrowseCourses/AvailableDivisionsofStudy/tabid/1891/CourseID/491/Default.aspx

  37. The word “because” (or “since”) in Hebrew 6:6 can also be translated as “while,” which I think makes more sense in the context. The apostates could not repent while they continued slaughtering animals. The point was that real Christianity and first-century Judaism were inconsistent religious systems.

  38. Dear Jack,

    thanks for your taking the time to respond to my questions. Regarding “repenting of ones sins” I understand what you mean. Perhaps I should have worded it as recognising ones sins and how they separate us from God. Do we have to realize our sinful condition to be saved? Of course, yes!
    Every time Jesus forgave someone and healed them, it was AFTERWARDS that He said… go and sin no more. John 5:14, “Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.”
    I guess my dad has NEVER recognised that he is a sinner in the first place. If one doesn’t recognise sin in their life is it possible for them to understand ‘repentance unto life’? It does say that Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation.
    So, the way I see it my dad never had Godly sorrow, only worldly sorrow which is not the same thing.

    In Christ

    Vee

  39. Dear Jack,

    Keep looking at Him and not the waves, wind or circumstances. You will then walk on water.
    He is bigger than your lung issue. He is the Divine Healer.
    His Word as double edged sword, able to penetrate marrow and bone.
    He is made perfect in your weakness.
    Love in Jesus.
    Sue

  40. Hello Sue,

    Thanks for your prayers — we know part of the lung problem will remain as is.. and we’ll find about tests and biopsies in about two weeks. ,-)

    But all is well, In Christ Jesus eternally, Jack

  41. Hi Jack.

    Praying you are healing up. Hoping to hear some good news about those lungs.
    In Jesus,
    Sue

  42. Hello again Vee and others,

    I’ll discuss Repentance and a few Biblical reference points:

    In my searching the KJV Bible, I find there is no such statement or instruction to “repent of sins” for salvation. “Repent” in the original Greek is “Metanoeo” meaning a change of mind or think differently and if speaking about salvation — specifically Jesus Christ as The Savior.

    Perhaps one of the simplest illustrations of that word “repent” is when Peter was speaking before the multitudes:
    [My interlinear comments are bracketed ]
    Acts 2:36-38
    “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    “Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart,

    [My comment: the multitudes were shocked as they realized they had crucified the Lord Jesus Christ, their Messiah. In my mind I can imagine that awful, desperate shock.]
    “and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? [38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent,
    [The multitudes could not possibly have turned from the sin of crucifying Jesus Christ their Messiah.. they had already done it! They had to change their mind or way of thinking about WHO It was they crucified, believing He, Jesus, really is their Messiah]-[and the verse continues]
    “and be baptized
    [Baptizo – Greek = whelmed or cleansed in the NAME (not water) of Jesus Christ]
    “every one of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” [Every believer is given God’s Holy Spirit the moment we believe — my emphasis on Name].

    Acts 4:12 “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other NAME under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” [my emphasis on Name].

    Therefore we see no such phrase in the KJV New Testament – the dispensational age of Grace as “turn from sin” for salvation. Taken literally, such would entail works and be contrary to God’s Grace. (Ephesians 2:8-9 By Grace through faith) (Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done)

    There is no way an unbeliever can make himself worthy by turning from sin or changing his life to be saved. None of us are worthy nor can we make ourselves worthy of God’s salvation, Certainly, if we had what we deserve we would be consigned to hell for all eternity.

    Here is an interesting thought. Everyone MUST repent to be saved — in the true Biblical meaning of repent ie, change one’s mind – but certainly NOT Webster’s dictionary definition – turn from sin.

    You MUST repent Biblically (change your mind about Christ) to be saved.. whether we call it repentance or not. An unbeliever must change his mind from his own merits and works as qualifying him for eternal life — to trusting Jesus Christ alone (not by any works of righteousness before or after) for salvation). (Titus 3:5)

    Acts 20:21
    “Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance [a change of mind] toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    Might I recommend an excellent book on the truth of repentance titled, “All About Repentance.” The book’s author is my good personal friend, Dr. Richard Seymour, professor at Frontier School of the Bible in LaGrange, WY Unfortunately his web site does not have the book listed.
    The newer edition, “All About Repentance” is not yet listed on Amazon however the first edition is listed but unavailable (out of print).

    Dick has written an excellent short PDF file article on Repentance everyone should read, only two pages which may be downloaded free. Go to his web site and scroll down until you see, “Understanding Repentance” and then download it.
    You will really appreciate it.
    http://www.clarityministries.org/trumpet/

    Incidentally Dick has a dozen or so great two-page PDF files clarifying some of the great Bible doctrines on that same page. You can’t go wrong on his web site.

    I pray this will help give an understanding of that terribly misunderstood word, “repent.”

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  43. Hello Vee,
    Thanks for your question on Hebrews 6:4-6.
    I will quote the KJV Bible as that is the one I use for study..
    Hebrews 6:4-6
    “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. “

    This verse is a favorite of the Arminian camp.. saying that one can lose their salvation.. Not true or it would contradict all of the Scripture that speaks of Eternal life – Strongs Greek: aionios meaning “perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) :- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).”
    Eternal life is unequivocal, once possessed, lasts forever – without end. Guaranteed by God Himself, sealed with His Spirit, never to be broken.

    Charles Ryrie and I agree:
    This much-debated passage has been understood in several ways.

    [Not my position]
    (1) Arminians hold that the people described in these verses are Christians who actually lose their salvation.  If this be so, notice that the passage also teaches that it is impossible to be saved a second time. [My comment – Arminians think a person can be saved and lost and saved, ad infinitum]

    [Not my position]
    (2) Some hold that the passage refers not to genuine believers but to those who only profess to be believers.  Thus the phrases in verses 4-5 are understood to refer to experiences short of salvation (cf. v.9).  The “falling away” is from the knowledge of the truth, not personal possession of it. [My thought – All words in the referenced verses in Hebrews refer to a person who has believed in Christ]

    [Here Ryrie and I agree and this is basically my position]:
    (3)  Others understand the passage to be a warning to genuine believers to urge them on in Christian growth and maturity.  To “fall away” is impossible (since, according to this view, true believers are eternally secure), but the phrase is placed in the sentence to strengthen the warning.  It is similar to saying something like this to a class of students:  “It is impossible for a student, once enrolled in this course, if he turns the clock back [which cannot be done,] to start the course over.  Therefore let all students go on to deeper knowledge.”  In this view the phrases in verses 4-5 are understood to refer to the conversion experience.  Notice how the words “illuminated” (enlightened, 10:32), “tasted” (2:9, and “partakers” (12:10) are used elsewhere in Hebrews of genuine experiences.

    Actually my understanding of the verses is the assurance that a true believer can never fall away into Hell, but may fall aside (Gr. parapipito) into apostasy or error. We see lots of that these days, don’t we? The verses certainly encourage us to continue in our service to our Savior, not for fear of loss of salvation but for loss of favor with our Savior — serve not to be saved but because we are!

    The phrase “to renew them again unto repentance” means cannot restore them again to a change of mind (repentance) about Jesus Christ. (Follow-up on repent in my next comment here). Why? Because true believers have already changed their minds (repented) to understand and believe that Jesus IS the Savior. Once done that contract is sealed by God Himself and permanent:
    Ephesians 1:13
    “In whom (Jesus) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

    Ephesians 4:30
    “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

    When Almighty God seals believers, no one, no thing, no person (not even the believer) can break that seal of His promise. Here a quote from Jesus Christ Himself:
    John 10:28
    “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man [includes one’s self] pluck them out of My hand.”

    Vee, I pray this will help clear things up for you.. and others. If not — ask away and with the Lord’s help I will do my best.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  44. Hi Vee,

    Thanks so much for gracing our Blog with your visit. I really appreciate your study and sincere thirst for the Truth of God’s Word.

    It will take some time but I will answer your questions above, but between those and the questions you pose on your Blog, I am determined not to give you any “snap” answers. In fact I see about three or four sermon series in your questions. 😉

    Just as an introduction, I understand your concern for your Dad and Shirley and I will pray for him. I empathize with you, in that my Dad was raised in an Arminian /Wesleyan Methodist church. Later in life he became a Presbyterian/Calvinist and raised us in that philosophy (from which I rebelled and became an atheist). He became a Deacon then an Elder and started a satellite Presbyterian church where he was one of the top respected Elders.

    Yet, years later, after I trusted Christ as my Savior (age 35) my family would visit and I would try to talk to him about his salvation. He argued with me vehemently when I explained, by Scripture, that salvation is his simply by taking God’s Gift of eternal life, making the decision to trust/believe that Jesus, God in the Flesh died for his sins and rose again.. And by believing in Christ, he or anyone would possess forever, eternal life. He refused to agree, could not see it and argued red-faced.. but offered no counter arguments.

    On one occasion, he finally screamed (not his nature), “Well then, WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN”!! That gave me one more opportunity to explain the simplicity that is in Christ, the Gospel, that a Christian is not necessarily certified to man by his behavior but to God by his faith in Jesus Christ. He never did acknowledge to me, face to face, that he was trusting Jesus Christ as his Savior.

    Then one day, shortly before he passed away, I received a newsy letter from him (which was uncharacteristic) and tagged on at the end was the note, “I know you wanted to know this. I remember now that I trusted Jesus as my Savior as a child.. and that is all there is to it, Love, Dad”!

    That was so exciting for me but I never got a chance to talk to him again face to face before the Lord took him home to Heaven.. But now, thankfully I look forward to seeing Dad and Mom in Heaven.

    Vee, when anyone says that the Bible agrees with both Arminianism and Calvinism I would heartily disagree, since both are contrary to God’s Word. One of the first principles of Bible study is to understand that the Bible IS God’s infallible Inspired (God breathed) Word and will not contradict itself in any place or in any way. If we see “apparent contradictions,” it is our misunderstanding problem, not the Bible’s “oops” and certainly not God’s error.

    I will follow up with your other questions later. Thanks so much. It is thrilling to see someone so interested in studying and delving into the Truth of God’s Word. If you had only been living here in South Florida thirty years ago I would have loved having you in our congregation asking such sincere questions.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  45. Hi Jack,

    I thought I would pop on over to your blog seeing that you have been so kind in commenting on mine in such a gracious manner.

    I do have a question for you, and it’s kinda personal on my behalf.

    My dad was a Christian for over forty years and then just four years ago he has become an atheist. I am having trouble reconciling this with the once saved always saved issue. Perhaps dad was never saved to begin with is what I am leaning towards.

    What are your thoughts on this and I would love for you to post a little something on Hebrews 6…

    Hebrews 6:4-6 (English Standard Version)

    For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

    Reading the above I wonder if my dad really did share in the Holy Spirit. Yet his life was very much lived as a Christian man who seemed to understand things as one who was born again.

    When he decided to become an atheist he had a meeting with the pastor of the church he was attending for many years say to him that he believed that if dad died he would still be saved. I am sure you have had people in your life who have gone through something similar to this. What would you say?

    And just to add a little bit more to this equation. My dad now says that ‘sin’ is one of the most horrible concepts that the church has come up with. He now sees that there is no real sin concept but rather a culture or society should act and behave fitting for social cohesion for the common good. This leads me to believe that dad has never repented of sin.

    Also, I would love to know what your thoughts are on repenting.

    In Christ

    Vee

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