Rick Warren, Tony Blair, John Piper – Togetherness?

Apostate Ecumenism at its worst?  Peace at any price, without the Prince of Peace? How long will the followers of these men continue to swallow the lies. Look at the amazing combination of Catholic dogma, New Age, Reformed/Calvinist drivel emerging from Rick Warren’s Mega Church in California. Will the sheep at Warren’s Southern Baptist Saddleback Church ever wake up or have they been so brain dirtied and blinded that they will never see Truth?

Tony Blair

By Ingrid Schlueter – CrossTalk

Rick Warren believes the world can have peace without the Prince of Peace. He is awarding Tony Blair, a pro-abortion, Roman Catholic convert with a peace prize in a few days at Saddleback Church. Click here for Warren’s details. As we see Dr. John Piper’s open embrace of Warren at his Desiring God conferences, one of which will be held at Warren’s church in April, we are reminded of the emergence of a new spirituality that is without the cross of Jesus Christ (just ask Tony Blair about his plan to unite world religions), of “peace” without the author of peace, Jesus Christ, and of an apostate evangelicalism that has now linked arms with the United Nations to push Agenda 21 goals.

The followers of John Piper are in deep denial. They believe that because Piper has never written or spoken anything heterodox, that he must be trustworthy for all time. That is why I wrote my piece on evangelical bridgers. These are the most dangerous men of all. Blinded by pride and their own sense of importance in the scheme of things, (and ironically, often claiming newfound humility), they end up bridging the gap between false teachers like Rick Warren and biblical Christianity. John Piper has chosen to become a Bridger. My prayers are with those who will blindly cross that bridge while loyally carrying their Piper banners all the way.

The Truth, Heaven is FREE << Click

65 responses to “Rick Warren, Tony Blair, John Piper – Togetherness?

  1. chas, that is so sad. That kind of scenario has played out in lots of places.

  2. It’s happened in my own family already. A niece and her husband got the jab early since they’re public school teachers. My sister tried to warn them off, citing online evidence about the possible dangers of the vack-sez. My sister received a condescending reply about “how sad it is to see loved ones succumb to conspiracy theories” and other tripe, along with a notice that no one who is un-jabbed will be allowed anywhere near their daughter, effectively cutting my sister off from seeing her grandchild.

    Of course, in their minds they’re just “protecting” their daughter who has been through several surgical procedures, including a heart transplant (even though the kid’s not 2 years old yet). But it shows the tragic consequences of buying into propaganda, even with the best intentions.

  3. Holly, T.D. Jakes is in on it too. He has even appeared with Fauci.

    In many cases, these “spiritual leaders” will say its a personal decision, and then invoke something about loving your neighbor as a compelling reason to get it (as if failing to receive the shots means you don’t love your neighbor).

    In any event, the pastors pushing the vaccines are only going to empower the tyrants who want to exclude people who refuse the “vaccine” from everyday life. Unfortunately, some of these tyrants include neighbors, people who were our friends, and even family members in some cases.

  4. I started a response, unfortunately when I was almost done, it deleted the whole site, as per usual with this laptop and the funky keyboard.

    Several church leaders like Greg Laurie, Hagee, etc. have come out to either say they’re getting the shot or do figure out like Graham, WWJD (What would Jesus do) regarding shots, with little substance.

    What right do they have to give health advice and make it supposedly Biblical. It’s like the people who say you should not take any medicine or you’re involved with witchcraft. And then we have the confusion of those saying it’s the mark (vs. conditioning for the future). And these pastors giving health advice as supposedly spiritual advice, don’t answer the aborted baby issue or the change of DNA. Do they even know any of the side effects? Do they know whether it will or will not stop transmission? Whether it will change someone’s genetic markup? Whether it will alter them in another way? How is this even medicine actually with such little study?

    Look at who all is pushing this stuff, very indicative of what we are facing in our future.

  5. I read an article today quoting Tony Blair as advocating different freedoms for people who had gotten the COVID shots versus those who have not. Following are a couple of chilling quotes:

    The former prime minister has warned it “makes no sense at all to treat those who have had vaccination the same as those who haven’t” – and said relaxing measures for those who have had both jabs will provide a powerful incentive.

    “It is time to distinguish for the purposes of freedom from restriction between the vaccinated and unvaccinated, both for citizens here for domestic purposes; but also for our citizens and those from other countries in respect of travel on the basis that being vaccinated substantially reduces risk.”

    My comment: it will be interesting to see if any evangelists or megachurch leaders sign on to this concept. We know that Franklin Graham and J.D. Greear have been big advocates of the COVID shots.

    Combined with yesterday’s announcement of a global minimum corporate tax, it looks like things are really starting to gel for the authoritarian one world government and one world religion.

  6. Purpose Driven lifestyle salvation 🙂

  7. Shane Wrote “lifestyle salvation”
    good one Shane

  8. freegracer24

    I completely agree John. This kind of teaching and mentality is so prevalent and widespread that it’s scary. Either these people don’t understand the difference between justification and life transformation, or they don’t want to accept the fact that their salvation is solely based on what Jesus did and not on anything they do.

  9. freegracer, I think the confusion is that people have blurred justification with life transformation.

    One could never have assurance of eternal life by looking at his “transformed life.”

  10. freegracer24

    It definitely sounds like Rick Warren is pro-Lordship Salvation from what you’re describing. He, along with many others, are blurring the lines between sanctification and salvation. Now, sanctification and relationship with the Lord are blessings of being saved, but confusion arises when we confound these with the terms of salvation itself.

  11. freegracer24, I agree that he is a mixture of both. He seems to want to cover the bases with praying to accept Him, he also mentions something about it not being enough just to believe the facts (suggesting mental assent). Here is a prayer he suggests.

    How you can receive Christ right now by faith through prayer
    Prayer is just talking with God. He knows your heart, so don’t worry about getting your words just right. Here is a
    suggested prayer to guide you:
    Lord Jesus,
    I want to know you personally. Thank you for dying on the cross for my sins.
    I open the door of my life and receive you as my Savior and Lord.
    Thank you for forgiving me of my sins and giving me eternal life.
    Take control of my life. Make me the kind of person You want me to be.
    Does this prayer express the desire of your heart? If it does, pray this prayer right now, and Christ will come into your
    life as promised.

  12. I totally understand what you’re saying Holly. On one hand we have blatant Lordship Salvationists like Piper, Macarthur, and Washer who turn salvation into a survival of the fittest. And on the other end of the spectrum we have New Age “preachers” like Rick Warren who water the gospel down into oblivion by almost making it into a feel good, self-help sales product. Although to me Warren seems to be a mixture of both.

  13. Freegracer – Rick Warren says we must receive Christ as Savior and Lord ‘by invitation’ using Revelation 3:20. He is all over the place and doesn’t have a consistent gospel. Go to his page and search by the word gospel, you won’t find it that way. He has you ‘finding God’ or ‘knowing God’ by ‘visualizing’ several different things. In some ways he uses some of the right verses, but then turns around and uses NLT and terrible occult like ‘bibles’ like the Mess-Age which isn’t even a bad paraphrase but in my humble opinion, a truly demonic deception.

  14. freegracer24, you are right. Rick Warren diminishes the power of the cross, and replaces it with “lifestyle salvation”.

  15. freegracer24

    Shane, Rick Warren also talks more about having a relationship with Jesus and fulfilling His life purpose for you rather than our guilt of sin, inability to merit peace with God, our need for a Savior, and Christ’s redeeming work on Calvary. Now, I will acknowledge that union with Christ is part of salvation, and the ability to have a peaceful relationship with Him is a blessing of being saved. But Rick Warren makes living for God a necessity while omitting important parts of the Gospel.

  16. Freegracer, agree.

    Jesus said “if you love me feed my sheep.” He did not say “if you love me feed poison to my sheep.”

  17. Rick Warren is very lordship in his position on salvation. Warren preaches a false gospel. He will say that you have to turn around, and begin to live for the Lord. That is salvation, to him. In addition, he is a purveyor of the “social gospel”, which is a good-works focus where we are supposedly defined as “Christians” by doing good works and bringing their definition of “social justice” to the world.

  18. freegracer24

    Thank you for your insights John. I also went on Rick Warren’s website and watched his video on getting saved. I listened thoroughly to everything he said and at one point I heard him say something about making a commitment to Christ for salvation, implying the promise of a changed lifestyle. Now, I want to be very clear that there is NOTHING wrong with obedience of following Christ. However, confusion and doubts arise when we confound this with the terms of salvation.

  19. I ran into a couple of old work friends in Feb. and they invited me to a Bible study (in Genesis) that meet each Thurs. night. I went few times, but it didn’t take long to start getting turned off. Instead of just studying thru Genesis, the study leader each time would pass around these 3 and 4 page hand outs. (I thought; aren’t we here to study the Bible, not read hand outs?) One thing that concerned me was in one of the handouts there was an article written by Rick Warren. I suspect this group may be S.B.C leaning. There are some other things I heard that did not sound grace alone. I have stopped going, no regrets.

  20. freegracer, Rick Warren is a prominent Southern Baptist. At the very least, he is associated with an organization that frustrates grace.

    I found the following in an interview with Rick Warren:

    QUESTION: Why do you think people who call themselves Christians sometimes say the most hateful things about Muslims?

    WARREN: Well, some of those folks probably aren’t really Christians. 1 John 4:20 says, “If anyone says, ‘I love God,’ yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.” And 1 John 2:9 says “Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.”

    My comment: Neither 1 John 2:9, nor any other verse, can be interpreted to mean that a “true Christian” will always love his brothers and sisters in Christ, or anyone else. If 1 John 2:9 were interpreted that way, no one could have assurance of eternal life without examining their works. One need not examine his works to determine whether or not he has eternal life. Based on the answer to this interview question, Rick Warren seems to be confused on the gospel.

    You might also like this article:


  21. freegracer24

    I happened to see Rick Warren mentioned in this article, and in the title. There are those who accuse us free grace believers of believing in the same gospel message as Rick Warren (who is obviously an apostate). If this argument can be refuted, can you send me some Lordship Salvation-esque quotes from Rick Warren?

  22. Wow. This explains why a majority of professing Christendom and the rest of the world is in great turmoil. This Pope Francis is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, no doubt about it. I am convinced that he is one of Satan’s instruments used to pave the way for the Antichrist, with his politically correct philosophies and efforts to bring all world religions together. Rick Warren is doing the same thing, particularly trying to bring Christians and Muslims together. Islam is a lot like Lordship Salvation: they both require “total submission” to be saved, destroy the assurance of believers, and have myriads of advocates who claim they are “misrepresented.”

    Seeing John Piper yoke together with Rick Warren raises a huge red flag about him and Lordship Salvation as a whole. I even saw John Piper and Francis Chan practicing Lectio Divina with Beth Moore and Lecrae in front of a youth audience. You also have John Macarthur who denies the redemptive saving power in Jesus’ blood to take away sins, and then outrageously teaches that you an take the mark of the beast during the tribulation period, repent later, and still be saved and go to Heaven. So it seems like we not only have Pope Francis and Rick Warren, but also the Lordship Salvationists involved in the Antichrist agenda.

    We definitely have a lot of wolves in sheep’s clothing in our midst. :/

  23. John – good point by Jane. I believe they seriously make it clear where their heart is. It’s with their religion, with their Icons and Idols and Saints and religious practices. In the cases of the Popes, it must be the adoration of the masses, the power, the position.

  24. Ben – the Purpose driven life is a messed up piece of work… Have no idea if Warren has sincerity in it, but he has allowed so much compromise, he has no idea if he’s coming or going, and what on earth he believes. But the world loves him… Billy Graham, many are convinced because he used the Word of God and had some good singers and hymns that he HAD to be preaching the true gospel. It was never very consistent, and probably why he too is not sure if he will ‘make it’ to heaven. Deceivers, at the same time being deceived. I read some of the book (making notes) of his cohort who became an atheist. So much to share there if I am able and God is willing. But it is obvious to me that the doctrines of men continue to try to taint and corrupt minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.

  25. Phil – the Pharisees are a good comparison to the Pope. They might have the Scriptures, they might know them. But they would not come to Him that they might have life, and they did not believe upon Him for their salvation. I do not believe the Pope even knows the message of the gospel, for he is a deceiver and is being deceived. People like Mother Teresa didn’t know the message of the gospel, for they only knew what they were taught in their religion and they missed the simple gospel. Mother Teresa was afraid she hadn’t done enough to make it to heaven. I’m afraid she may have been right. I can only pray that sometime in her life she understood the gospel and became bewitched. The gospel the Roman Catholic church teaches we all know is faith plus works and even then, all will spend some more time in Purgatory (false)….

  26. Benchap, I remember having read part of that book and being really confused. I wasn’t saved at the time, and “The Purpose Driven Life” didn’t bring me any closer to understanding the gospel message.

  27. A friend of mine once said, upon reading “A purpose driven life”, that she said that her made her realise she can’t do it, it was too hard – referring to Christianity. That highlights, to me, that Warren’s book is full of religion that appeals to the flesh and our self will.

  28. Phil, Calvinism/LS is RC lite.

  29. Something that the Catholic Church used to tell people and may still, is that if a Catholic wears something called a brown scapular (which is a piece of cloth associated with Mary) and does so openly and unashamedly that person will be assured that he will never be sent to Hell. And Catholics are duped into believing this nonsense! They light candles and pray that their dead loved ones will be released from purgatory and the penalty still due for their venial sins so they can be allowed into Heaven….I could go on and on with some of these falsehoods…..

    Catholics are brainwashed by their clergy and popes. Catholics clearly believe that faith must be accompanied by good works in order to qualify for salvation. They believe the RCC’s teachings are the final word and final truths, not the Bible by itself. That’s the big reason they all flock to and “ooh and ahh” over this pope in his recent visit: they are coming to his feet for answers, not the Bible and not the scriptural gospel message.
    But isn’t this also similar to what Calvinists, Lordship Salvationists and others who rely on man-made creeds, catecisms, dogmas, confessions as the final word for those who let theologians interpret the Bible FOR them?

    The pope may know what 1 Corinthians 15 gospel message says, but to this pope and the RCC that is not the final word on salvation. Catholic church teaching, to them, is the final truth. (Sad)

  30. Keith, I think you’re right. There is also the flavor of works Salvationist who thinks that God requires that each person “respond to the gospel” with a single act of faith – like Abraham offering up Isaac. In this false gospel, God requires each person to give up something to receive eternal life, or to prove he has believed the gospel.

    I call this believing in the godfather, not the God of the Bible. Grace is reduced to a quid pro quo. “I’m gonna make him an offer he can’t refuse.”

  31. John, you said that the Pope said, “Caring for our neighbor, for those who are poor, who suffering body and soul, for those who are in need: this is the touchstone. Is it pauperism? No. It is the Gospel”.

    I have heard Calvinists say similar things, that everything from baptism to opposing homosexual marriage is ” the gospel”. Just like the Jew who makes animal sacrifices and the devout Catholic who puts his trust in the mass and the sacraments, the Calvinist is trying in vain to make his own offering for sin (Heb. 10:18; 26).

  32. Phil, maybe this pope knows what the message of the gospel of salvation is, maybe not. But, based on his public remarks, he does not know what the gospel is.

    Following is one of his quotes on the matter:

    Caring for our neighbor, for those who are poor, who suffer in body and soul, for those who are in need: this is the touchstone. Is it pauperism? No. It is the Gospel.

    My comment: these are all good things to do, but they are not the gospel. Knowing the gospel is an essential part of Christianity. Those who do not know and believe the gospel are lost (that is, they do not have eternal life).

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4:

    [3] But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
    [4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Also, the RC “Apostle’s Creed” changes the gospel. Following, from Wikipedia, is the full text:

    I believe in God,
    the Father almighty,
    Creator of heaven and earth,
    and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
    who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died and was buried;
    he descended into hell;
    on the third day he rose again from the dead;
    he ascended into heaven,
    and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
    from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic Church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and life everlasting. Amen.[25][26]

    My comment: Who is Jesus Christ? Hint: he is God our Savior. Why did Christ die? Hint: it was FOR OUR SINS. That is, in complete payment for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3).

  33. a fith of hard liquor at one sitting would be a step up for the pope in all the self righteousness of religion .

    one of the congressman swiped the popes water glass so his wife and children could drink the rest of the water and sprinkled grandchildren with it.
    something what religion does. the congressman in his deception actually cursed his family

    Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

  34. If this pope performed a mass he would have to have mentioned Jesus because it is in their litergy.

    I think this pope knows what the message of the gospel of salvation is, but like all the other religious institutions the RCC has so weighed the gospel down with their doctrines and dogmas of legalism and faith plus works, rituals, and smoke and ceremonies that it is unrecognizable from the pure simple gospel that Paul and the Apostles proclaimed to us. In the first place, they don’t even think that Christ died for all our sins: that’s why they believe in purgatory. I don’t know for sure if this is true, but once heard that their doctrine says that Christ only died to remove original sin.

    All I ever heard from the RCC was the gospel referred to as, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

  35. Holly, you said: The Pope did not mention Jesus even one time, nor the Bible, nor the true gospel, or how to be saved in his speech. Pretty easy to figure it out unfortunately. His treasure was all about the things of the world.

    My comment (actually my wife’s comment): I guess it wasn’t pertinent to his message, which is truly a sad commentary.

  36. Keith, the “big ones” draw big crowds (Pope Frances, Billy Graham, TIm Keller, Joel Osteen, etc.). People must think that the size of the following is correlated somehow with the truth. That’s why churchianity is such big business.

  37. Phil, it is true that all these false belief systems cling to a human leader to follow. The one common denominator of all of them is that they choose to walk by sight rather than by faith. They would rather follow the Pope with his pomp and pageantry, the charismatic Calvinist preachers with their apparent erudition or look to their own works, faithfulness and perseverance (self-effort) for assurance of where they will spend eternity. And yes, Holly, I haven’t heard him mention Jesus.

  38. The Pope did not mention Jesus even one time, nor the Bible, nor the true gospel, or how to be saved in his speech. Pretty easy to figure it out unfortunately. His treasure was all about the things of the world.

  39. Phil, I agree that people passively waiting for someone to spoon feed them leaves them vulnerable to believing false doctrine of men.

    Then, when they hear the real word of God, they disbelieve, because it conflicts with what they’ve always been spoon-fed.

  40. John and Keith: the RCC, Calvinists, Lordship Salvationists, Ariminians, SBC and a lot of the rest SHOULD understand, know, and believe the abundantly clear good news message of our salvation, the gospel from scripture. The trouble is that leaders now and in the past have so muddled and distorted this simple good news message with man-made doctrines and dogmas from everyone from Augustine to Calvin that is comes across, in one form or another, as a salvation based on faith in Christ plus mans works..This is the false gospel that the protestant hanger-oners flock to like Billy Graham and John MacArthur.

    Why do so many flock to this pope, yet the RCC is in such decline that their churches are closing in increasing numbers in the USA? Part of it is they want some holy man to tell them what to believe, think and obey. But isn’t that the same path that the Calvinists and Lordship Salvationists have taken their people? The Calvinists say they just believe what the Bible says, but in fact they believe what their leaders feed with their man made doctrines, confessions and creeds? They filter their salvation beliefs through these doctrines. They have taken the depravity of man and put it on steriods to the point that man is so utterly helpless that he cannot exercise even faith: God has to do it for him.
    My conclusion is that people and churches, whether Protestant, Evangelical, or Roman Catholic, just want some religious leader to spoon feed them and tell them what to believe and do.

  41. Keith, I think so too. And, it’s interesting to watch “leaders” from other denominations trying to get in on the act.

  42. It’s interesting to watch both conservatives and liberals swooning over the Pope. The RCC is forming a one-world religion before our eyes.

  43. I noticed that Rick Warren is speaking at the Pope’s “World Meeting of Families” this week.

    Following is a statement from Warren on his appearance:

    I’m not a Catholic, and we have many differences with Catholics, but they love the Lord and we have much in common with that; we believe in the Bible, and the Trinity, and in Jesus and the resurrection.

    My comment: do you agree with the Catholics on how one receives eternal life? If not, you are leading people away from the Lord. If so, you are leading people away from the Lord.

  44. Pingback: Andy Stanley’s Catalyst “Leadership” Now in SoCal with Rick Warren | Notes From A Retired Preacher

  45. ScarletLetterman,

    Yes, men tend to twist Scripture to suit their fancy. Be very careful that you do as the wonderful Christians did in Berea when Paul preached to them. They listened to Paul and then went back and checked Scripture to verify what they heard was true.
    It is a tragedy that most TV “religious” broadcasting stations are totally off the wall and contrary to God’s Word.

    Stay in touch — will be praying for you as you immerse yourself in Truth.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  46. Thankyou Jack, Jesus saved me from Hell and alcoholism 2 years ago almost. Life is a joy! Then the Holy spirit led me away from T.B.N and its horrible” teachers”. I have been listening to John Macarther since. Just so much to sort through.Your right maybe I will just relax and trust Jesus since all men are so Fall-able. also in Christ , 🙂

  47. Scarletletterman,

    No need to be frustrated. The simplicity of God’s Word is overwhelming, isn’t it? The message of the Bible is that God’s salvation is FREE with no strings attached. Christ Himself said: “….He (God) gave His only begotten Son (Christ) that whosoever believeth in Him (Christ) should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16) These verses are all from the King James Version of the Bible. So clear.

    Simply put, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9
    And:”Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” Titus 3:5

    And by all means: “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:3

    Simple and uncomplicated. Simply by your decision to trust or believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior
    Please, before your head pops off, read the Header page above entitled, “Eternal Life for You.”

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  48. Im confused… do we go to hell if we dont get every interpretation exactly correct? sheesh,I know the road is narrow but I think my head is going to pop off with frustration. 😦

  49. Thank you, Jack! 🙂

  50. Jan,

    Thanks for that info.. I edited your comment to correct the bolding error.

    It is surprising to me that these pastors who make recorded statements don’t see that such will come back to bite them.. but obviously they see no error or simply don’t care.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  51. I’m not sure why all that is bolded. I only wanted some of it bolded. I thought I put the code in the right place but I guess I didn’t. 😦 The bolding should have stopped after “the member’s parent.”

    And I should have said see the video for an explanation of sinning by questioning, not see below for an explanation.

    Sorry for the confusion.


  52. The You Tube channel from Really Sad is by someone who was a member at Mars Hill when Driscoll changed the by laws-which is a subject we could discuss by itself, except that would only land us in the “sinning through questioning” camp. See below for an explanation of that. I don’t know if Really Sad is still attending there or not. His/her purpose seems to be to expose what happened to these 2 pastors and some of the doings surrounding that event. Because Really Sad is/was a member of Mars Hill church I think Lisa would find the videos and accompanying notes to be of interest. The other site is by someone who attended Mars Hill for some time and her observations and concerns. Both are less about the doctrine and more about the practices at Mars Hill. A church can have a perfectly legitimate doctrinal statement but prove to be a very unsafe atmosphere for (usually) the member/person in the pew. (I don’t think Mars Hill’s doctrine is likely to be perfectly legitimate as Driscoll is 5 point Calvinist and, I suspect, Covenantal, but that is not the main point I am making right now.)

    The last video Really Sad posted is of Driscoll speaking from the pulpit about an overly inquisitive child who is like a “little lawyer” to his/her parents. He says:

    “How many of you were this kid for your parents? You were like this very little attorney who had lots of questions for your parents. And it wasn’t that you had questions, you were always questioning, ‘Why? How come? Johnny gets to do that. What do you think about this? What about the war in Iraq?’ They were like, ‘You’re 4! Shut up and drink your juice box.'”

    According to Really Sad, there was a real person behind those remarks. There was a lawyer in the membership who questioned the firing of 2 pastors and the change in the by laws. Really Sad says her membership was suspended and Driscoll suggested she listen to the sermon he was going to preach that day-which was the sermon in which this “illustration” was used.

    So, the lawyer member was cast as a child who asked lawyer-like questions of her parents, which would place the member in the position of a child and the church leadership, Driscoll in particular, in the position of the member’s parent. This is an inappropriate simile as, unless they actually are under the age of 18, church members are not as children to the leadership. And if the leadership sees them that way, or they are taught to see themselves that way, then there is something desperately wrong with the church’s understanding of the authority a church leader has. And since the member here is a practicing lawyer, it is highly unlikely she is a minor, let alone a 4 year old. All that and we are less than 20 seconds into that one video.

    That is enough for now, lest I be sinning by tempting others to ask too many questions. I must have a juice box around here somewhere I can occupy myself with….


  53. Good to know, Jack. You’re on top of it!

    My apologies, Lisa. Just lookin’ out for my friend, here.

  54. Thanks Pearl,

    I believe Lisa is the real thing.. Her email address tells me she is an artist and consultant with a web site near Seattle where she sells her art. I believe she is honestly searching for truth and answers. Her posted web URL should have left off the “art@” hence your security warning. Not a problem.

    I sincerely pray Lisa will investigate and heed the warning she sees on this Blog about Driscoll and his ilk.

    One thing I meant to mention is that Driscoll, like many doctrinaire Calvinists, pretend there only two possibilities for Christians:
    (1) Calvinists who they say are “chosen for salvation” or
    (2) Arminians who tend to believe one can lose their salvation.
    I am neither. Scripture says once a person makes the honest decision to trust Jesus Christ alone as his Savior, he can never lose it. Eternal life given by Jesus Christ is ETERNAL. John 3:16
    Contrary to Calvinists, people are not chosen for salvation, they must decide to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. (Whosoever believeth in Him).
    Question, why would anyone believe in a Calvinist god who would say to my friend Pete, “Hmmm.. I will choose you for Heaven but not your Mom — I’ll leave Mom to go to Hell, I’ll not even give her a chance to believe”?
    Years ago, Pete, a young man whom I led to Christ, told me he answered someone with that very statement. For years Pete and I prayed for his Mom and tried to lead her to Christ but she refused. She died without Christ. Some short time later a Calvinist came to Pete and tried to convince him to change his theology to Calvinism.. That sentence above was Pete’s answer plus, “How could anyone believe in a god like that”? His Mom refused, not God!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  55. I hope Lisa is the true thing. Last night, when I followed her link, my gadget warned me that it was a potential phishing site. Just though you oughta know. Even so, the info you put up will teach other sincere lookers.

  56. Lisa,

    Thanks for dropping by. I appreciate your desire to search for truth. You are in Driscoll’s church so you see what happens day to day better than we who are bystanders searching the Web for videos and writings by Driscoll. There are many from which to choose to prove our point.

    Mars Hill Church’s Statement of Faith is OK except for an occasional use of the Calvinist words “Total Depravity.” However we can search the Internet and see that he is a doctrinaire Calvinist and veers considerably from his rather Conservative Statement of Faith.

    Driscoll preached at Contemplative, inter-spiritualist, apostate Robert Schuller’s Crystal Cathedral church June 14, 2009. This is a wrong signal to send to and teach his followers.

    Driscoll is a 5 point Calvinist who welcomes all “Christian” religions to fellowship at Mars Hill Church. A Video from January ’08. Watch:

    In the above video he acknowledges Piper, MacArthur and others as fellow 5 point Calvinists.

    Driscoll was/is an Emergent Pastor – who may have come out but according to radical Matt Slick of Hyper-Calvinist CARM web site (which I DO NOT recommend) speaks of Driscoll as an Emergent leader and “he is a breath of fresh air.”

    Driscoll is quoted in an Archived Emergent web site for his “innovative ways” of preaching in a multi sensory environment – typical of mystical Emergent teaching: http://web.archive.org/web/19991008023909/www.youngleader.org/specialedition/pg3_8.html

    You no doubt know that Driscoll has mixed gender, open forum sexual teachings at Mars Hill. You may find it by putting “Mark Driscoll sex” (without the quotes) into your search engine and, (on my results), the first listing is on “Christian Sex (Mature Content)” from Driscoll and his wife at Mars Hill Church. You will also get videos of Driscoll supposedly describing different methods of sex. The title alone is disgusting, so I will take his word for it without visiting. Most Conservative Bible preachers believe that is a subject for private consultation, not public discussion with Q and A. I did not go to the site so I must take Mars Hill word for it, “Mature Content.” This is not the way of Biblical Christianity.

    Lisa, This is only a partial list of my disagreements with Driscoll. My study of God’s Word tells me that Mars Hill is not a church I could recommend. However, be a Berean and use Discernment.

    Thanks again and drop back by again soon.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  57. Go here:


    And here:


    Others talk about him too. You can google “spiritual abuse driscoll” for more info.


  58. My husband and I go to Mars Hill. We thought we really investigated what they believe and confirmed they do follow the Gospel. We are late 40’s and felt called because of the large # of young people and needing guidance from more experienced Christians. We haven’t found anything that would be considered as compromising Biblical truth. I know Mars Hill pastor Mark Driscoll hasn’t been perfect in his language, plus the music isn’t gospel or classical. But none of these things take away from Marks faithful, fundamental Bible teaching.
    What are we missing? We truly want to know if there is something as we agree that the one we follow isn’t the pastor, but our Savior Jesus Christ.

  59. Jan,

    Thanks for your note and link. I guess the more we dig the worse it gets. Hunt has been a great source for me on Calvinism.. but I was terribly disappointed to read his answer to my question about MacArthur.. And now your link to Miles Stanford simply confirms in my mind Hunt’s LS, MacArthur error that I found. What a shame but not too unexpected.

    Wouldn’t it be great if, like Tom, everyone put their doctrine full face on their books, blogs and web sites?

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  60. I have violated my own rules by promoting or quoting someone without checking them out fully.

    Oh. I thought you knew about her or I would have said something myself. To tell the truth I was kind of surprised to see something by her here. 🙂

    Tom is right. She is very pro LS. The fact that she and other LSers are exposing many wolves that need to be exposed is one thing that makes them so greatly appreciated among the regular Christians who don’t know much about LS/FG, but know something is wrong with the uber-heretics (Warren, McLaren, et al.) and therefore strongly appreciate people like Ingrid, MacArthur, Howse, et al.

    While they should be commended for their efforts as they are important, they do make things complicated because of their LS views. Unfortunately, there is very, very little of the kind of heresy exposure they do among the FGers so if people are going to get the information they need (and they do need it), they are going to end up getting it from LSers.

    On a related note, IMO, one of the reasons Dallas got kicked to the curb among believers is because they spent almost all their efforts on writing about prophecy almost to the exclusion of everything else. Prophecy is EXTREMELY important and entirely indispensable and we would be lost at sea without their contributions, but it is not all there is. Regular living and how the word Dispensationally divided applies to us and compares with heresy was not all that much of an issue with them. Nor are there many comparative works from them like there have been from the Calvinists against Emergent, Purpose Driven, etc. There are one or two things from the Dispensationalists, but the bulk of their work is prophecy, which most people do not know they need to be concerned about. And it is very difficult to persuade them otherwise as it seems so academic and removed from their lives. So the prophecy teachers got sidelined for more acute issues. On the other hand, much of what we are seeing today is (as Jimmy DeYoung likes to say) setting the stage for prophecy to be fulfilled, as the church would know if it had paid appropriate attention to these prophecy teachers. But because they did not, most people do not know how to interpret these uber-heresies nor do they see (or believe) how they abet the coming supra religion. A multi-factoral issue, I realize. But the terrible irony is that the prophecy teachers have been rendered irrelevant yet their message is what is most needed at this time, as would be clear if it were applied to the events we see today in the church and in the world. The only person I know for sure who is doing that is Dr. Rob Congdon, who tracks the developments in the E.U., and the coming supra religion. And possibly the guy who wrote “Epicenter,” whose name is escaping me at the moment. But he is of questionable quality too. Hopefully there are others, and if so, I would like to know who they are!

    Well, anyway, I suppose that is enough jabbering.

    As for Dave Hunt, Miles Stanford had an exchange with him regarding his pseudo Dispensationalism:


    Hunt stands in disagreement with MacArthur on his Calvinism, but he shares his pseudo Dispensational views on the application of the 3 synoptic gospels to the church, and at least to some degree, his LS.

    Hunt is another one whom I tend to appreciate, though intermittently/sporadically. He has some really good things on some important issues. I have a DVD with a great talk he gave on the charismatic witchcraft of the prosperity flock fleecers. I get the Berean Call news letter too. But I usually don’t read it anymore because in spite of his usefulness on some points, I have found him to be difficult to “digest.”


  61. Jan,

    Thanks for your note.. I have not followed Ingrid until lately and obviously not very carefully.. Hard to understand how one can have discernment in one area and neglect it in another.

    Thanks for your note and admonition.. I have violated my own rules by promoting or quoting someone without checking them out fully. It just goes to prove that folks who can be so clear and right on many points of doctrine can be so far off on others.
    Tom, thanks for your clarity and correction. I must heed my own words and be a Biblical Berean.
    Speaking of which, it reminds me of a note I sent last October to Dave Hunt of The Berean Call, questioning them about favorably quoting Calvinist Gresham Machen as a “great defender of the faith.” Hunt answered that while he disagreed with Machen’s Calvinism, the quote was sound and appropriate. That answer was disappointing. Yet I still subscribe to The Berean Call — but I now read it with caution and hopefully, discernment.
    I fear such as The Berean Call and their likes readily expose the Calvinism of some (MacArthur, Piper, Sproul, et al) and yet ignore the Lordship Salvation teaching of the MacArthurs, et al.
    What a mixed up world in which we live.. Just a passing through, thankfully!

    Thanks to both of you.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  62. Jan and friends,

    Ingrid and VCY America are strong supporters of the lordship salvation teachers. They are promoters of John MacArthur, hosting rallies for him and strongly promoting calvinistic and or lordship teachers, such as MacArthur, Paul Washer, John Piper, Ray Comfort, etc.

    But VCY America is also against the emergent church, purpose driven, etc. While I appreciate many of the Crosstalk programs, it has been my observation over the last 10 years that they see, with discernment, the issues of the new movements but don’t see the problems with lordship salvation and calvinism, IMHO.

    Tom Cucuzza

  63. Yeah. I have a lot of respect and appreciation for Ingrid Schlueter. She was very helpful to me when I was researching Warren. I am just wondering why Piper is only now getting this kind of attention from her? Is it just because it is more Warren? Why did she let Driscoll and Wilson go? Piper really HAS been a problem for a long time. This is not a new thing.

    I know she has done some good in exposing Ray Comfort when he appeared with one of the prosperity teachers (I think it was Creflo Dollar). For all that she appreciates Comfort (which I think is unwarranted) she was willing to call him out on it. But Piper has been given a pass all this time. She really doesn’t let anyone get away with anything, but Piper has not gotten attention from her before this. Perhaps she doesn’t know much about the Wilson thing, though that would surprise me. But everyone knows about Driscoll. Did she do something on that that I am just not aware of? It is very hard to understand how that would have gotten past her.

    Don’t get me wrong. I am glad she is exposing Piper. She is definitely doing the right thing and I don’t mean to detract from that. I am just a little disappointed that she didn’t do it sooner and perplexed as to why not.


  64. JanH Thanks,

    Right you are — Apostasy abounds.

    Still, I think it important to publicize.. Only a few folks feel it important enough to expose these folks.. especially Piper, the icon of modern day Calvinism.. but what can you expect — his theology is based on error to start with.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  65. It’s not like this is a first offense for Piper. Before Warren he had Driscoll, who needs no comment, and Doug Wilson, one of the architects of the Federal Vision heresy.

    Piper being a “Bridger” is nothing new.