One of my readers who signs his comments “Stickin’ to the Bible” wrote a couple of comments which deserve more than just a cursory look.
He compared the doctrine of Francis Chan, author of a new book, “Crazy Love,” to John MacArthur.
I have never read the book but did look up Chan and his ministries and find him to proclaim Calvinist doctrine (as does MacArthur).
My friend, Stickin’ then proceeded to offer another comment with details from pages of Chan’s book. I will quote some below — so you may be forewarned about Francis Chan.
Stickin’ To The Bible said:
I have also heard that Chan is a graduate of Master’s College and Seminary, both schools founded and presided over by John MacArthur. In Chan’s book, Crazy Love, David Cook Pub., 2008, pp. 68-78, he creates a list of what he describes as his “profile of the lukewarm.” His descriptions are along these lines:
1. people who say they love Jesus but only include him as a part of their lives; 2. people who are moved by stories about those who do what he calls, “radical things for Christ,” but they themselves do not do such things; 3. people who rarely share their faith with others for fear of rejection; 4. on page 78 he says, “Lukewarm People feel secure because they attend church, made a profession of faith at age twelve, were baptized, come from a Christian family, vote Republican, or live in America.” After making his list of what he calls “Lukewarm People,” he then discards them like matchsticks all in one fell swoop on pp. 83-84. Chan says, “As I see it, a lukewarm Christian is an oxymoron; there’s no such thing. To put it plainly, churchgoers who are “lukewarm” are not Christians. We will not see them in heaven.”
Clearly, Stickin’ has pegged Francis Chan as a MacArthur type “Lordship Salvationist.” Chan’s statements above imply that one cannot be a Christian without good works — in direct opposition to multiple scriptures which state that salvation is free and complete apart from good works. Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 11:6.
Obviously Francis Chan has interpreted Scripture to suit himself or has never read the Book of First Corinthians about the carnal believers in Corinth.
Thanks to my reader Stickin’;… he has done a great job of research and reporting.
Notes From A Retired Preacher 
To answer Patty’s message:
Because a believer is not growing in the Lord as others think they should, they are still believers in Christ — do not condemn them, teach them.
If a believer forsakes Christ, Our Savior will never forsake them.. Bring them along by teaching them. Even all the disciples forsook Jesus.
Matthew 26:56
“But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.”
Yet Christ will never forsake believers — regardless. That IS eternal security.
Hebrews 13:5
“Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.”
Romans 4:5
“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
Romans 11:6
“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
Thankfully, our salvation is completely and solely by Grace through our faith — our decision to trust the Risen Savior, Jesus Christ.
Thankfully our service is likewise by God’s Grace through our decision to serve Him.
Comments on this topic are closed.
Thanks for your discussion,
In Jesus Christ happily, contented and securely — by God’s Grace.
ExP(Jack)
For sure I understand.
Patty brought up some great questions that really add to my original questions regarding texts like John 15, Luke 9, the rich young ruler, etc. If the space here is too limited to respond would you recommend an author, website, book …
Thanks.
Pastor Unleashed,
I pray you will see many souls saved in your ministry.
I cannot suggest or recommend to my readers the book you mention — especially in light of your prior statements on this Blog. I am sure you understand.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Well said Patty.
Expreacherman – if I have said anything that has upset you I am sorry … My intent was not to stir up anger in you but get deeper into an understanding our walk with Christ. Which is why I was eager to hear your response to some of the passages of Scripture I had brought up. Forgive me if I have upset you.
Patty, I too feel as though this Lordship/No Lordship debate is arguing two different sides of the same coin … It’s all grace and that grace will result in living a new life.
This discussion has given me a lot to think about and I will continue to read and study more about how it all fits together. Expreacherman, God bless you as you seek a closer walk with Christ and to help guide others to Him.
A great book I have really enjoyed that puts grace and living in grace into a great perspective is a book called “Truefaced” … Such a great read and it was instrumental in shaping the last ministry I was a part of (a one year discipleship school) to become known as a place of grace. And my prayer is that now that I have moved out of that parachurch ministry and planted a church that the same truth of grace will transform a church as well (and by God’s grace it is so amazing to see that happening now in lives being transformed).
In the firm grip of God’s grace,
Kaj
I’ve been watching this thread intently, wondering when you guys were going to start the name-calling and inflammatory language. Why do we always have to vilify those who disagree with us? I hear both sides saying the same thing at times — but when the other side says the same thing in different words, you basically label each other heretics.
I see both sides saying that we should live as close to Christ as possible. Both sides saying salvation is by grace through faith. Both sides saying that our works in no way save us.
There is more that unites us than divides us! We’re all Christians. Can’t we have a civil discussion?
For the record, I see both sides of this argument, but I think sometimes Scripture is distorted to make a point. For instance, I’ve seen John’s statement “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life,” used to assert that belief is the only requirement for eternal life. And yet the verse is simply saying that John is writing to those who believe — and he has written THESE THINGS so they would have assurance of their salvation – so they would KNOW. All you have to do is look through the rest of 1 John to see what things he was writing (which grace unleased quoted in a previous post). He said there was a way to recognize the spirit of truth and error. He said if someone does such and such, then he doesn’t know Christ. John wrote to those being influenced by Cerinthianism, which taught licensious behavior was acceptable because what was done in the body had no effect on the spirit. They also taught that ordinary Christians were deficient in their faith because they didn’t have the special enlightenment or knowledge the followers of Cerinthus (gnostics) had. John writes that there are some very specific things you will see in your life if you are truly a Christian — things his readers (believers) could use to examine themselves as well as the false teachers who were vexing them.
Doesn’t it come down to James’ observation that “faith without works is dead”? Not that works are needed to obtain salvation, but real faith affects our lives. Jesus said if we love Him, we’ll obey His commands. And, as grace unleased pointed out, the great commission is to make disciples, “teaching them to obey.” I don’t really see in Scripture where being a disciple (one “taught”) is optional for a believer. I would probably say it’s inevitable. Who could have his heart changed by belief in the Truth, experience God’s grace and forgiveness and His presence in their hearts without living for Him? That doesn’t even seem possible. And I think that’s what James was trying to say — faith is a double-sided coin. Belief and obedience go hand in hand.
But I would never say that because someone is immature and is struggling in their Christian walk that they are not saved. But I do think one of Jesus’ parables might speak to that issue. In Luke 13 Jesus tells a parable about a tree that had no fruit. It didn’t bear fruit for 3 years so the man was prepared to cut it down. But the caretaker said to wait one more year and to fertilize it and then, if it still didn’t bear fruit, then it should be cut down. Didn’t Jesus say that we were to bear fruit (John 15) and every branch that didn’t bear fruit would be cut off and burned? Isn’t there some application in all this for Christians? That eventually we should bear fruit (not WORKS, but the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in our lives)? Shouldn’t people see love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control in us? It’s not that we have to DO SOMETHING, but we do BECOME SOMETHING. We look more and more like Jesus every day — and it happens naturally because of our relationship with Him. It’s not about imposing rules or regulations, but the admission that you can’t come into the presence of our glorious Lord without being radically changed. I don’t consider that LS or works salvation! And sometimes I hear ALL of you saying this.
I really believe we agree, but whenever we try to discuss it, we get all hung up on the terms, and then we make everyone else out to be the heretic. Isn’t there some way that we can understand each other and even agree with each other without thinking that we have somehow lost the argument because there is merit to the other person’s observations? I see everyone quoting Scripture here… and it’s all God’s Word. On both sides — when we ignore the verses that don’t support our position, we do it to our peril. I think we’re looking at different ends of the elephant — and there is a sense that both are right!
“Pastor” Unleashed
You said:
“You have asked me to point where you fall into this thinking … it comes when you constantly claim that all ones needs to do is accept the gift … and the actually following and trusting Christ with your life is a total option.”
[…] and
“The thought of someone calling them self a Christian without being a devoted follower of Christ is absurd.”
[You hesitated to say your quote is from LS Proponent Francis Chan]
Therefore this settles it — you are saying that God’s Grace is not sufficient — you must add the works of following to secure/keep/show salvation. You have mangled God’s precious Grace.
Your flippant denigration of God’s Grace is a travesty — and to think that you preach such to your flock saddens me. If you are so proud of your doctrine, place your church/denomination and your name here for all to see.
God is Holy, Christ is Holy and believers should strive to be holy… by God’s sufficient Grace.
2 Corinthians 3:5
” Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;”
2 Corinthians 12:9
“And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. ”
In Jesus Christ eternally, infirm, not perfect but strengthened and growing daily by God’s sufficient Grace,
ExP(Jack)
ExPreacher,
Sorry to have confused you with the idea of easy believism … it is a point where you have once again chosen one side of the full story (“just believe is all it says”) without giving any thought to the full weight of Scripture on the subject of soteriology and discipleship (a very amateurish and dangerous way to handle Scripture). In fact I challenge you to find one major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior. You have asked me to point where you fall into this thinking … it comes when you constantly claim that all ones needs to do is accept the gift … and the actually following and trusting Christ with your life is a total option.
Something I just read really sums up my thoughts as I have waded through this discussion …
“The thought of someone calling them self a Christian without being a devoted follower of Christ is absurd.
Some people claim that we can be Christians without necessarily becoming disciples. I wonder, then, why the last thing Jesus told us was to go into the world, making disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey all that He commanded. You’ll notice that he didn’t add, “But hey if that’s too much to ask, tell them to just become Christians – you know, the people who get to heaven without having to commit to anything.”” Christ’s call in Luke 9:23 was not a call to believers! Why do you think many walked away … were they believers who just took your “Jesus wasn’t really serious about this stuff” option?
I appreciate your desire to make sure that everyone understands that it is all about grace but you have done so at the expense of remaining true to the entire Scriptures and the whole story … you need to do too much mental gymnastics to get around the very simple teaching of God’s Word.
It is interesting that in Scripture we see Jesus and Paul being accused of both being too hard and too soft … I am happy to be in the same boat as those guys! Some one like yourself will always feel the pressure of what you see as legalism in my call to radical discipleship (to call me out as falling into a Galatian type legalism is a lazy mishandling of Scripture) … and my “fundy” friends will continue to say that I have sold out and become weak on the holiness of God.
I love standing in the tension … and I love to have found others also not willing to release the tension by going to either extreme (Tozer, Chan, Bonhoeffer, etc.).
You have asked me to bullet point my concerns with a no-lordship Christianity and I believe I have done so … I have hoped to see your response to various passages of Scripture (Matt 7, 12, John 15, James 2, 1 John, etc., etc.) with no real response. I realize that this is just a blog and there is not much room for a full discussion … but if you even had a link to where you wrestle with this tension I would love to check it out.
My hope too is not to come here and pick a fight but this is just such a crucial issue that I want to really challenge you to fully think through what your are teaching. If you wish to end the discussion I am ok with moving on 🙂
Grace and Peace
Royce,
You do not speak for me. You misrepresent what we have written here and what we believe.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
I don’t have the option of ignoring the plain teaching of the Bible, and you don’t either.
I completely agree with you about how one is saved. Where we disagree is how one lives after he is saved. I agree with Jesus and John and Paul you don’t. You are not alone in your view and I am not alone in mine.
It is dangerous to treat the plain truth of God’s word lightly. This is my final statement on this thread. Your mind is made up and thats that. I wish you and your readers well.
for Christ,
Royce
Royce, you need a good course in studying the book of 1st John in context.
All good verses but do not prove in context that good works will always follow salvation.
Just read 1st John 5:13 in a real Bible — which you quoted above and concentrate on it.
1 John 5:13
“These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, …”
Royce, do you believe on the Name of the Son of God, Jesus Christ? If so you may KNOW you have eternal life. No works — no exemplary behavior, just believe.
The condition, BELIEVE, the result, you may KNOW.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Pastor Unleashed,
I do not believe nor is there anything in my words or the words of any other Free Grace believers who write here indicating one is saved by raising a hand or simply “saying the prayer.” I challenge you to point out any such statement.
Likewise I challenge you to bullet point specifically what one of us has said, any statement with which you specifically disagree — and why.
You said:
Trusting in Christ is different than just believing in him (even Satan and his demons do that).
As a Pastor you should know there is no verse in the Bible that says Satan and his demons “believe in him.” (Christ — I assume you mean by your sentence). The Bible says the devils believe there is one God — and tremble. They certainly do not “believe in him” as Christ pleads with unbelievers to do. Yet here you seem to show some disdain for the many, many verses that say simply and only, just “Believe on,” “Believe in” Jesus Christ for salvation — no strings attached. Surely you don’t mean what you wrote!
Salvation (Soteriology) and discipleship are entirely separate Bible doctrines. You as a Pastor should know that. In illustrating the “full story” you quoted “If you want to be my disciple you must deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow me.” This verse is not a mandatory demand for discipleship… Notice Christ says “If you WANT to be my disciple…” He gives us a choice. The right choice is to want to be a disciple. However, some believers want to and others not.. but to place them under Galatianism is a travesty. We all should encourage believers to be disciples, but not as a means to prove their salvation.
Preacher, keep preaching salvation by God’s Grace through faith for salvation. We should never even hint at an admixture of works..
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
By this we may know that we are in him: 6whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness.
But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
f you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?
Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him.
We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Don’t you see a pattern here? Is is sinful and unbiblical to try to separate faith from works. They always go together. This is what you are railing against. Why not just attack John the author of 1 John?
Making excuses for sinful behavior is against God and anyone who does it needs to repent.
Royce
I read the article … here is his conclusion:
“The issue boils down to this: True
believers should be recognized by their attitudes, their words, their works, their lifestyles. This is God’s ideal. But to insist that unless one’s behavior is above reproach and consistently Christlike, that one is not saved, would be going to an unwarranted and unbiblical extreme—something I’m sure none of us want to do.”
I have been doing a bit more reading on the LS issue and it seems that over and over again these types of statements are used. Statements that are really nothing more than a “strawman fallacy”. I am sure there are some hardcore self-righteous religious folk who would make that statement, but it is not what anyone like MacArthur or Piper or Chan would ever teach.
It is just wrong. And is a misrepresentation of what Lordship is all about. It is not an issue of what brings about salvation but what salvation will bring about.
What I mean by easy believism is this North American (and something that is also quite foreign in the greater Christian history) idea of raise your hand and you’re in. Don’t worry about anything else … if your said “the prayer” nothing else matters you have the fire insurance; the ticket to heaven.
I hope this is not what you believe … I would suspect that this is something you would also be concerned about. The issue is then what to do about it. I do not think we need to make salvation more difficult rather we need to do what Jesus did … make it all about grace while also giving the full story. “If you want to be my disciple you must deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow me”
Sounds like Jesus taught that Lordship was kinda important. I can’t get my head around Jesus saying, “Just say you believe me … and don’t worry about really following me … go ahead and live the same way, bury your dead, say good-bye to your family, don’t worry about that whole deny yourself stuff … it would be nice if you did, but totally not necessary”. What a wimpy Jesus. What a waste of His sacrifice and a waste of my life to even call myself a Christian.
Trusting in Christ is different than just believing in him (even Satan and his demons do that).
I will continue to preach grace AND call people in my church to follow Christ … I do not add anything to God’s grace but only do what Scripture teaches which is to call all believers to surrender it all to Christ. If someone doesn’t I am not instantly calling out their salvation as we may never know until heaven.
But it is crazy that God would sacrifice His Son to purchase heaven for sinners and then just leave them to fend for themselves against the power of sin in this life (cf. Romans 8:32).
One author sums it up by saying:
“If one were to suggest that the time would come when a group of evangelical Christians would be arguing for a salvation without repentance, without a change of behavior or lifestyle, without a real avowal of the lordship and authority of Christ, without discipleship, and a salvation that does not necessarily result in obedience and works, and with a regeneration that does not necessarily change one’s life, most believer’s of several decades ago would have felt such would be an absolute impossibility. But believe it or not the hour has come”
Sad.
People in my church know they are loved and accepted no matter what … and that their salvation relies completely on the finished work of Christ … they also know that they are called to live in a different way than the world. It is not an option for those who bear the name of Christ.
Pastor Grace Unleashed
In our zeal to see believers follow Jesus Christ we must be ever so careful NEVER to imply that if a believer does not perform works, they are not saved or that a believer must check his salvation by looking at his own works. That is the LS message and a lie.
Please explain your statement “easy believism” which you seem to use as a pejorative… or better still explain the opposite, “hard believism.” Believing is easy and does not require following. Following SHOULD follow believing but such is not a component or indicator of salvation.
Here is a great short two page PDF dissertation on Identifying True Believers, written by my dear friend, Dr. Richard Seymour, teacher at Frontier School of the Bible in LaGrange Wyoming. This is a must read that may help clarify this issue. Download it here:
Click to access true_believers.pdf
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Royce,
In two words, Absolutely not!
You apparently do not understand the two natures of every believer and the inevitable conflict between them.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Was the author of 1 John a LS teacher?
Hi Guys … thanks for your responses!
Just a quick point of clarification: by saying that grace is awesome and “confusing” I mean that it is outside of my ability to fully comprehend it … I mean more from a personal point of view of how great a sinner and how great a Savior … if grace doesn’t cause me to shake my head in disbelief and fall to my knees in worship I am not sure I have fully embraced the truth of it!
I will most definitely pick up Cucuzza’s book and give it a read.
My only concern with the unbiblical stance of an easy believism gospel that seems to disregard all scripture that calls us to discipleship.
I am not saying you guys are following that stance but I think the discussion here quickly turns into a round and round argument where someone who believes in lordship salvation are automatically thrown into the “Salvation by Works Camp” … even when one says they don’t belief in works salvation but in Jesus statements that we are known by our fruits.
So we come to the point where we need to decide if by saying that a believer SHOULD show fruit that that automatically means that one is espousing works theology (which I don’t believe any more than I believe you are espousing antinomianism).
As a way to better understand where you are coming from I would love to hear your take on:
Matthew 7:15-20
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
or …
Matthew 12:33-37
Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Sounds like Jesus was a bit of a LS guy 🙂
I have long been a man who strives to not jump too far to either side of a biblical paradox … it quickly becomes silly and we throw away both of the extremes and end up with nothing. By being true to Scripture we sometimes need to live in the tension that Scripture sets up and be O.K. with that. I AM sanctified positionally (1 Cor 1:2, 30) and yet I am also BEING sanctified (2 Cor 7:1, Heb 10:14). My position in Christ is secure and eternal and yet He is also constantly pruning and perfecting me.
I do not believe that my fruit is any sort of payment for my salvation (which was a free gift to one who deserves the exact opposite) … but I do believe that Jesus is my Lord and I will want to struggle and strive to remain close to Him and follow the narrow path (careful not to fall off on the side of legalism or license … it is a narrow path). It is important to keep an understanding that there is a tension between my responsibility to live holy and my total lack of ability to do it outside of God’s grace.
Great discussion … one that pushes me to never let go of the unbelievable truth of God’s grace and his call to holiness … what a great Savior we serve!
Blessings
Great clear systematic responses Pastor Jack! Thank you for starting and maintaining this discussion site.
May I reiterate your book recommendation to Pastor Grace Unleashed of Dr. Tom Cucuzza’s fine book on grace reponding to MacArthur and other extreme Calvinist/LS teachers: “Secure Forever: God’s Promise or Our Perseverance” (see Jack’s link at the top of this page).
Another recent straightforward work on the subject is “Simply by Grace,” by Dr. Charles C. Bing, Kregel Pub., 2009 (available through gracelife.org).
Pastor Grace Unleashed,
Thanks for joining us and contributing to the discussion.
You said:
“I am not sure what you call yourself :)”
With all humility, I consider myself a Biblicist, one who believes, studies and preaches God’s Word clearly. Maybe I would call myself a Berean, one who receives “the word with all readiness of mind, and searches the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” Acts 17:11
You asked:
“sanctification … does it happen? Is it all God? Is it all me? Is it both?”
Sanctification means to make holy – which happens by God immediately upon anyone believing in Christ. (This confirms our standing in Jesus Christ).
1 Corinthians 6:11
“And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”
Washed, justified and sanctified — Yet we are still sinners. Therefore our daily life sanctification “for the Master’s use” (see verse below) is maintained through obedience, and does not affect our salvation.
2 Timothy 2:19, 21
“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” […]
“If a man therefore purge [cleanse thoroughly] himself from these [iniquities], he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.”
So our daily sanctification (or state) is determined through God’s Grace giving us strength and desire for our actions (i.e. depart from iniquity). Yet our eternal sanctification (or standing) is forever complete and accomplished when we made the decision to trust Jesus Christ as our Savior. That cannot be changed, sealed by God’s Holy Spirit.
You said:
“2. There seems to be confusion over works based salvation (what I think you really mean by Lordship Salvation??) and discipleship (a life that displays salvation).”
LS proponents insist that one who professes Christ as Savior and does not meet their expectations of commitment to the Lord’s service is unsaved or never was saved because they may not be doing what they deem “good works.” That teaching could be called Commitment Salvation or LS, an egregious doctrinal error.
You said:
“all grace and yet not cheap grace … as a follower of Jesus Christ there has been an inner change that is resulting in outward actions.”
There is no “cheap grace.” It was very costly to God by the death of Jesus Christ, yet free to everyone through God’s providence. Grace is God’s free gift or favor provided to mankind with no expectation of return.
You know Ephesians 2:8-9 – For by Grace are ye saved…” and then comes
Ephesians. 2:10
“ For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we SHOULD walk in them.”
Had the word “must” been inserted there instead of “should” then we might have reason to doubt our eternal salvation – because no believer always walks in good works. Praise the Lord He gave us the choice – we “should.”
Yes, these “works” actions do NOT determine my standing with God. You said: “..grace is so awesome and confusing!” Awesome Yes! Confusing – Absolutely not. God loves us and gives us multiplied grace every day.
You said:
“but my actions DO show an indication of what is going on inside”
Yes, perhaps my disobedience, sin, etc indicate my attitude but is not an indicator of my eternal destination. Nor is a person’s outward “perfect life” any sign of his salvation.
You asked:
“What do you see as the difference between this and what you call LS?”
LS attempts to put a legalistic yoke upon every believer, expecting each to measure up to their lofty standards of how a believer should perform before the Lord. LS proponent John Macarthur wrote “….. no one can be saved who counts the cost and is unwilling to pay it.” Wrong!!! There is NO cost for salvation by His Free Grace.. yet there may well be a cost for discipleship as we serve our Savior
You said:
“I get the impression that you don’t have a very high view of a call to abandon your life to follow.”
It has been my prayer for years that every believer I meet and with whom I talk — and everyone whom I lead to Christ would get a burden for the lost – would dedicate his/her life to study God’s Word and be diligent as a follower of Jesus Christ – a witness – a soulwinner, a worker that need not be ashamed. (2 Timothy 2:15). Some do – some don’t. We can only encourage but should never force or intimidate.
Trusting Christ as Savior and determining to live for Him are both separate choices we must make. The first determines our eternity and the second determines our fellowship and happiness with the Lord (and other believers).
Conclusion, our works SHOULD reflect our faith in Christ and our salvation. If not, it does not affect our eternal life in Christ.. but we will be miserable and guaranteed to be disciplined by the Lord.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Wow, what a discussion! I am new here … came by way of googling Francis Chan.
I am also new to this debate over Lordship Salvation and … what ever the other option is … I am not sure what you call yourself 🙂
As I process this all, I have 2 things I hope you can clarify:
1. Give me your quick rundown on sanctification … does it happen? Is it all God? Is it all me? Is it both?
2. There seems to be confusion over works based salvation (what I think you really mean by Lordship Salvation??) and discipleship (a life that displays salvation).
I guess my view is that it is all grace and yet not cheap grace … as a follower of Jesus Christ there has been an inner change that is resulting in outward actions.
These actions do NOT determine my standing with God (there is nothing I can do to make him love me more or love me less … grace is so awesome and confusing!) but my actions DO show an indication of what is going on inside (Matt 7:15-20; 12:33-37; John 15) …
What do you see as the difference between this and what you call LS?
I get the impression that you don’t have a very high view of a call to abandon your life to follow Jesus (but this could be me misunderstanding you). I also consider myself and the church I pastor to be grace-filled, full of joy and laughter and fullness of life and authenticity AND striving hard to surrender it all on the journey of living a life worthy of our calling.
And if you are living your life constantly on the wrong path … no evidence of sanctification I will graciously call you back and let you know that God’s grace is great enough for even the worst of sin and the worst of sinners (like me!) … and I will continue to call them to righteousness … We value honesty about our struggles in our church and live it out because of our understanding of grace.
But my discipleship will take a different turn if there is never evidence of fruit … I will have to question whether they are wheat or tares, sheep or goats … not my call (only God ultimately knows) but I will check the fruit to determine the roots.
Sorry for the rambling! Just looking for clarification on works based salvation (works bring about salvation) and Jesus hard call to discipleship (works that display salvation).
Blessings
David Hardy,
Thanks for the conversation.
Yes there may many things of real value that remain unsaid. These should be said, but not at the expense of the Gospel.
Thanks again for stopping by,
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Jack…
I believe that we agree, more than we disagree….
Of course we should counsel with our family members regarding salvation…
I am not implying that we are to just live a mute testimony with our lives..
With the breakdown of the nuclear family and with it the dispersal of extended family, many things of real value remain unsaid…
David Hardy,
You have some good points from your experience and they are typical of many Christians.
I was raised around “believers” who refused, were afraid or embarrassed to share Christ with me. At age 35, I trusted Christ and was happy and content with my salvation, yet never told a soul how to have eternal life. A couple of years later my thoughts turned to a wonderful man, my father-in-law who died without Christ two years before I trusted Christ. I wept bitterly, realizing he was surrounded by many supposed Christians, Pastors and even his wife, yet no one attempted to lead him to Christ.
Sure, we all should realize that the Holy Spirit convicts us to be witnesses — but some respond others do not.
After that father-in-law awakening, I was strongly convicted to share Christ. I began to study to show myself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
The greatest thing we experience as believers, aside from our own salvation, is to see a lost soul pass from death to life in Christ through our sharing God’s Word. And be able to say, “I’ll see you in Heaven some day”!
A witness is not necessarily a shepherd. And I know very few, certainly not myself, that I would consider Super Apostles. We are simply witnesses for our Savior.
David, I would presume you do share the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ with your children — trying to convince them they should trust Jesus the Savior for eternal life — not just depending upon your exemplary Christian life to convince them. God’s Word is essential.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek [Gentile].
The Gospel IS the power of God unto salvation.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Jack,
With all due respect…
I agree that we are charged with spreading the gospel of Christ…
However, I can personally attest to the fact that as as a young man I was constantly ill at ease because I felt that I was ouside of the will of God by not being actively engaged in church sanctioned, preaching, evangelism or active missionary work…
In retrospect, I know that I wold have made no more of a shepherd, at that time in my life, than a blind man…
I have come to believe that we do not require the stamp of approval of churchmen, to be actively engaged in proclaiming the gospel of Christ through our lives, By being godly examples to our children, spouses, family, friends and co-workers, rather than being obsessed by telescopic philanthropy and burying the talent that God has given us because we are not Super Apostles….
David Hardy,
Yes, God may not “need” believers but by His Grace He uses us to spread the Gospel of salvation in Christ. How shall the lost hear without those of us who know Christ — sharing Christ. By His plan, the true church of Christ is built by God using individuals who proclaim God’s Word, preachers, teachers and just plain ole’ folks.
Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher [a proclaimer of Divine Truth]?
As for the propagation of believers and building the church:
2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Thankfully when we trust Christ as our Savior, we have the power, privilege and obligation to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ — not to be saved or keep our salvation but to show our love of and worship for our Savior Jesus Christ. How much sweeter the fellowship when we are obedient to Him. How could one ever claim close fellowship with Christ but hesitate to boldly share His Gospel of saving faith with others?
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Jack…
As has already been said… God does not need us… He desires fellowship with us…. We must remember this…
2Corinthians 9:7 You must each make up your own mind as to how much you should give. Don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. For God loves the person who gives cheerfully.
God desires our love… Not our stuff… and like Paul said…
1Corinthians 13:1 If I could speak in any language in heaven or on earth but didn’t love others, I would only be making meaningless noise like a loud gong or a clanging cymbal.
If we do not render service to God out of love and appreciation for Him… It is meaningless to Him…
1Samuel 15:22 But Samuel replied, “What is more pleasing to the LORD: your burnt offerings and sacrifices or your obedience to his voice? Obedience is far better than sacrifice. Listening to him is much better than offering the fat of rams.
Matthew 9:13 Then he added, “Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: `I want you to be merciful; I don’t want your sacrifices.’ For I have come to call sinners, not those who think they are already good enough.”
It has been said that you cannot see the trees for the forest… Did you know that at times you cannot see the forest for the trees?
At times the focus on too big of a picture causes us to overlook the singular aspects…And at times the big picture evades us for concentrating on the singular aspects…
So in effect there are three ways to look at our Personal obligations to God… Too big…. Too small… And just right…
1Corinthians 7:20 You should continue on as you were when God called you….
It is my sincere belief that many individual talents are buried because they are invalidated by overzealous leaders….
David Hardy,
Excellent analysis.. the truth that seems so evasive to some.
Salvation is truly free — no strings attached.
Thanks,
In Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
The key elements to our relationship with God can be found here…
1Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, “Don’t judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The LORD doesn’t make decisions the way you do! People judge by outward appearance, but the LORD looks at a person’s thoughts and intentions.”
And here…
Romans 12:2 Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will know what God wants you to do, and you will know how good and pleasing and perfect his will really is.
And here…
Galatians 5:22 But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Gal 5:23 gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.
And here…
Ephesians 2:8 God saved you by his special favor when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Eph 2:9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
And here…
2Timothy 1:12 And that is why I am suffering here in prison. But I am not ashamed of it, for I know the one in whom I trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him [fn] until the day of his return.
And this…
2Timothy 2:19 But God’s truth stands firm like a foundation stone with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,”
God looks at the heart… We are transformed by the renewing of our minds, the fruits of the Spirit are not external, like clusters of grapes to be seen by men…. Besides…..
Matthew 6:3 But when you give to someone, don’t tell your left hand what your right hand is doing. Mat 6:4 Give your gifts in secret, and your Father, who knows all secrets, will reward you.
Overemphasis on external works, only produces this…
Matthew 23:25 “How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! You are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside you are filthy–full of greed and self-indulgence! Mat 23:26 Blind Pharisees! First wash the inside of the cup, and then the outside will become clean, too.
Bro. David,
Ready to go out o here NOW!! Maranatha !! Even so come Lord Jesus.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Bro. Dave,
You are far too kind. I must be the most wimpy excuse for a witness in the whole Family of God. But I do know that my Savior’s love & grace is out of this world! Brothers & sisters such as you & Jack & this dear granny Sue are what keeps us motivated (the Lord number ONE of course!) to keep up the fight til He takes us out o’ here! God Bless you!
Thanks Dave,
Great points — concisely put.
We need more like you too. One person or group cannot get the message to everyone. LS is hogging all “evangelical” media such that we who preach True Free Grace have little voice.
Grandma Sue is truly an inspiration.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
I enjoyed reading that. She said:
“I thought England was the worst apostate in the world, now I know it is worldwide.”
Lordship salvation is much like the H1N1 virus as it spreads so quickly and easily. The only protection against its lethal consequences is a vaccination of pure grace but it is in such short supply. We need people to be aware of the symptoms of the Lordship salvation virus as they are:
1. Loss of assurance of salvation
2. Loss of joy
3. Sense of condemnation and guilt
4. Sense of distance from God
5. Works and law oriented
6. Judgmental and critical spirit
7. Legalism
8. Always searching but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
That list is not exhaustive but it does cover some of the symptoms they give.
We need more people like ExP Jack, David Wyatt, Stickin and this grandmother to get the remedy out to a dying world.
The following direct email from a dear Christian Sister in the UK. Thanks so much for her visit and comment.
—————
Dear Sir, I have spoken out against Mr MacArthur and LS on the ‘Rapture Ready’ Bulletin Board. I am too tired to faff about appeasing and fawning over peoples over sensitivities; so easily offended. Although I wasn’t personally offensive in anyway; they claimed I was as I said it straight to the point. Their attitude was that I had never encountered Jesus, that I was aggressive toward them and, and, and, – I am BANNED forever, much to my relief because that was what I wanted. Struck off so I couln’t be tempted to try yet again to help them see this formidable error.
Nearly sixty years with Jesus, I only learned of these heretical goings on by ‘chance’ this summer of 2009. WHAT and eyeopener. I found you while trying to get understanding through my traumatic experience with these dear folk; so sincere, yet unwilling to recognize the errors and the false gospel of LS.
I am a poor excuse for a witness; a bit of a Balaams
Ass really; but I did try, and was so glad to have found your faithful witness here online. I thought England was the worst apostate in the world, now I know it is worldwide.
Praise The Lord anyway!
God bless you dear twosome.
Maranatha! From a saddened and troubled Grandma.
(Thanks Grandma Sue — we will pray for you. I tried to contact you directly but your email bounced).
Thank you David and God bless you too!
By the way, I just read last night that the “Crazy Love” book has now sold over a half million copies in only a few months over a year! That is considered an ENORMOUS number of sales for any book published by a Christian publishing house. I guess we have our work cut out for us in the warning department.
Pastor Jack: Still praying for your health—God bless.
Stickin’, you said, “For all Free Grace friends: please continue to get the warning out about the Chan Book, “Crazy Love.” It is currently #2 on the Evangelical Christian Booksellers bestsellers list! It is being pushed by a lot of pastors nationwide to their congregations to try to stimulate more activity for God (I guess?). It has the potential to do a lot of harm in the Christian community, pushing a false works-oriented “gospel.” Thank you for the alert, & we will attempt to do so. I had seen it in the local Bookstore, but had not checked it out. God Bless.
Amen, me too! Thank you! The same to your dear wife. God bless.
Thanks David,
Please — let us rejoice in the name of our Savior Jesus Christ — not any man. “Jack” is just another poor sinner saved by God’s Grace.
Our love to you and your wonderful wife,
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Bro. Dave, That post as excellent! So true to life & Scripture! Pointing a genuine believer to who we are in Christ just sdets our redeemed hearts on fire with Holy Spirit-induced love for our Savior! I so resonated with Patty’s desire to be like Jesus! I have so woefully far to go, but as long as I look at my pitiful self I’ll go backward rather than forward.
Bro. Jack, just seeing your name just gives me joy! You’re such a blessing to me. God Bless!
AsiaRep,
I hate to do this to any individual commenter but please be advised, I am removing you from further commenting. You have put forward your less-than Biblical points multiple times, in some cases with disrespect. I have read them all and most of them have been refuted by me and others using God’s Word.
I just pray your presumed decision to trust Christ as your Savior was real. Only you and the Lord know for sure. If so, I will see you in Heaven some day.
In Jesus Christ, absolutely and eternally, without any doubt.
ExP(Jack)
p.s. I said:
“I was certainly one of those very legalistic types back then.”
I meant that as what you were describing that you know of some in the Wesleyan faith that are very legalistic. I was a complete bull head back then where I listened to nobody. I believed that if you were about to be hit by a car head on and by accident you used a four letter word then you would die and go to hell. I was extreme.
Hi Patty,
I actually did not know you were Wesleyan but that was my background years back. I was certainly one of those very legalistic types back then.
I’m glad that my last comment did help. When comments are made in here that someone is “continually condoning sin” as one person made then you can see who is truly being misrepresented. Brother Jack is extremely patient and kind hearted in dealing with such people as I lack his gift. I only give LS 2 to 3 chances to make their point and I am threw with them at my blog. I admonish once, twice and then reject as a heretic on the third attempt.
My email is open to you at any time. Please make GRACE the subject heading so I do not think you are SPAM and delete your message by mistake. If your husband is against the emailing me then I understand. I just didn’t want to use up ExP Jack’s site for discussions. I will be going home for the day so I probably will not respond again until tomorrow if you do respond. Thanks for the nice friendly chat!! It is refreshing to have those now and then.
Take care,
Dave
p.s. Hello ExP Jack!! Didn’t mean to ignore you each time.
Patty, thanks for your sane and honest inquiries. I appreciate your interest in Truth.
Dave, thanks for helping clear the air for Patty.
Patty, we must remember that Jesus holds every believer, securely sealed by His Holy Spirit, never to be changed, never to be lost. If a true believer in Christ ever went to hell, then Christ would have to either send His Holy Spirit to hell or break His absolute promise of His Holy Spirit Seal. Neither will EVER happen.
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,”
Ephesians 1:13
John 10:28
” And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand.”
Patty, you said, “He doesn’t want to let go of us, either. ” We must remember he GIVES us eternal and we will NEVER perish. Likewise, He will NEVER let go of us!!! If Christ says, “NEVER” I believe Him. God is neither a liar nor a probation officer who casts out disobedient believers, but a Loving, Benevolent Father who disciplines and keeps His children forever.
What a wonderful, loving, compassionate Savior we have.
That is the reason for our Joy in Christ!!! Secure forever in Jesus!!
“And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”
Philippians 3:9
Patty, we pray God will continue to bless you with the assurance of His wonderful Grace.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Dave, I agree with your last post 100%! That helps me so much to see that we really do believe the same thing. I think that sometimes it’s just hard to get past terms (and fightin’ words) and assumptions about what others are saying. I will stay in touch.
Thanks, Dave! I’m curious… how did you know I was Wesleyan?
I have such a deep joy in my relationship with Christ and truly trust in His grace alone for salvation. But I do know there are a lot of Wesleyans who can be quite legalistic, so I do understand that I don’t speak for all of them. I want to grow as close to the Lord as I possibly can and I want to be like Jesus more than anything.
I had to smile, though, when you lumped Arminians in with Calvinists, because most of us would see us as complete opposites.
I think God is so much more gracious than many Arminians would like to admit, and sometimes more stern than Calvinists would like to admit. If we love Him, we will want to cling to Him — and if we’ve experienced His love, we won’t want to let go and we’ll realize that He loves us so much that He doesn’t want to let go of us, either.
I appreciate the open dialog here.
Patty,
What is your definition of “easy-believism”? If your definition is “Walk an aisle…pray a prayer…get baptized…join a church” then ExP Jack, Stickin and I would back you 100%.
Easy-believism as defined by Lordship salvation is what ExP Jack, Stickin and I are accused of believing. It is my honest opinion that it is the LS believers that teach an easy-believism doctrine. It is so easy to believe that you must first turn from ALL of your sins. It is so easy to believe that Jesus must be made Lord of your life. It is so easy to believe that living in any sin must either prove that you are not saved or have lost your salvation as some Arminians do teach.
I think if you and I were to approach people on the streets and ask them if a person can be saved by the free grace teaching that ExP Jack believes then I honestly believe that many would say, ((((((NO WAY!!!!!!)))))))) I had a so-called atheist (I think they are simply lying) criticize my gospel because it was so free.
I think that if you were to see my many emails and debates I had over the years that so many have accused my teaching as a “license to sin” doctrine. Ask any LS believer if he is ever accused of teaching “license to sin” and you will find that it is virtually absent. How was Paul accused of such a belief in Romans?? If I were to stand up and say, “You must turn from ALL your sins. If you cherish even the slightest sin then you are undone. Jesus must be Lord of all or He ain’t Lord at all. You must endure to the end to be saved. If there is any reserve in your obedience then you are undone. You must make Christ your prophet, priest and King to be saved. You must lament your many sins and vow to never do it again.” Patty, those were many actual LS quotes. If I were preaching that then would you call me a “license to sin” preacher?
So many LS believers today and others still stumble at the “simplicity that is in Christ” that Paul once stated to the Corinthians. It is they that preach easy-believism because it is the religion that majority of the unsaved believe anyways. Personally, I am thrilled when someone accuses me of preaching “license to sin” because it tells me that my teaching is in line with Paul’s. I would only be teaching a license to sin doctrine if I am telling people to go and sin it up because all is well with your soul and that is something nobody here is doing.
Let me share two illustrations with you Patty and how grace teaches a person to deny all manners of ungodliness when the threat of judgment has been removed.
Imagine your husband (I assume that you are married) came to you and said, “Patty, even if you were to cheat on me with another man I would still forgive you. I love you that much.” Now would you say, “Thanks Honey!! You know, there was this cute guy at work that I wanted to hook up with but didn’t fearing that you would get angry and divorce me. Since I now know that you love me so much where you would simply forgive me I think I will give him a call right now”??? Do you see how love is more powerful than threats?
Now forgive me for this illustration but it is for illustration purposes only. Pretend that you are a prostitute in some land centuries ago. The king of the land approaches you and tells you that he has abolished the law of prostitution making it legal. (Any gospel that stops here has preached serious error). I’m sure that your original thought would be “Whew!! I can now earn a living without fearing the authorities.” But the king doesn’t stop there. He looks at you and says, “I love you and want you to be my queen. All that is mine is yours.” Now Patty, would you seek to have the best of both worlds after marrying him?? Would you take all the riches and still sell your body for money as well?? It wouldn’t make much sense. Even the people of the land would be looking at you questioning your intelligence for still practicing prostitution. I’m sure your attitude wouldn’t be, “I can now work a part time job and make money with my body and still have my blessed riches as queen.”
Would it make sense for a homeless man being invited to eat at a buffet to want to take a plate from that buffet table and go outside to the nearest dumpster for some food?
The only reason grace alone doesn’t make much sense is because the veil still covers the hearts of many until this day. They can’t see. They think that if the law is removed entirely then there would be chaos. This is what causes many to believe that free grace will promote sin. It is sad that they say this because it reveals how pitiful their condition actually is. They are basically admitting that if they didn’t have some law or threats hanging over them then they would run head first in a sin dung pile.
Christ was a friend to sinners. If Christ was preaching death and damnation to those drunks then why would the Pharisees be accusing Him of being a friend?? That is what free grace is accused of as well. We don’t condone sin, but we do invite people to a Savior that has done something about our sin condition. We are told to come as we are. The Savior has His arms open wide to receive sinners. A glimpse of that love can melt the hardest of hearts. God giving me the best shoes, a new ring, a new robe and killing a fatted calf throwing a party for me when I deserved only wrath is the cause for me to not want to cheat on Him with sin.
Do believers sin?? Yes and some do terribly. Why? Is it because they believe grace alone? NO!! Often it is because they failed somewhere in their thinking and it doesn’t take much to spoil grace. How did Paul handle the Corinthians? Threats?? No, he pointed them to who they are in Christ. It would be like me saying, “Why are you living in prostitution when you are a queen?” This is what Paul does many times when admonishing believers. You were a child of darkness but NOW you are a child of light SO WALK AS A CHILD OF LIGHT (Eph. 5:8).
Preach threats and you will see people unhappy and bound. Threats produce slavery and never real love. Love begets love.
I believe ExP Jack will be stopping this topic shortly.
Hope I cleared up some confusion Patty,
Dave
Hi Patty,
What I said was true concerning Arminians. I think you could have said that not all Arminians believe that. I admit that there are differences in the Arminian position out there. Some believe that a single sin will cause you to lose your salvation immediately (Dan Corner) while others believe it is a process. Others believe that only if you stop believing will cause you to lose your salvation. My comment I left was a simple quick comparison between Calvinism and Arminianism. The Calvinist would say that a person that has “fallen away” into sin was never saved. The Arminian would say that a person that has “fallen away” into sin lost his/her salvation. I wasn’t arguing for every Calvinist out there or every Arminian either. I just needed a quick statement to sum up both positions. I was simply trying to show the Calvinist position not being that much different from the Arminians. I only wanted to stress that the wording has changed slightly. My comments were not an attack on the Arminians out there nor defining every Wesleyan church in the USA.
Thanks,
Dave
“Arminians will say that if you fall away into sin then you have lost your salvation.” Not exactly true. But an Arminian would concede that it COULD be lost if a person chose of his own free will to forsake his relationship with Christ and to walk away. It would be a deliberate, purposeful decision on the part of the person, not God taking away a person’s salvation because they didn’t “perform” perfectly.
I actually agree with much that you write, Dave.
I find it hard to imagine that a true Christian would not want to be in fellowship His Lord.
If you define the sin nature as a “thing” then you can say you have two “things” in you at one time — to which Paul says to take off the old and put on the new… and we are new creatures in Christ – the old is gone and the new has come.
But if you define the old nature as alienation from God (that spirit of rebellion that chooses to disobey), then is it really possible to be aleinated from God and reconciled at the same time?
I do believe that sometimes Christians get in a habit of sin. But isn’t the solution to lovingly tell them Christ Jesus sets us free from the law of sin and death? That He gives us the power to live a life controlled by the Spirit? I’d be hesitant to teach something that would purposely rob a person of the true freedom they have in Christ — the freedom to be righteous and holy in actuality and free from sin’s dominion.
Again, why would any Christian want to sin (willfully transgress a known law of God)? Most Christians I know really want to be conformed to the likeness of the Son and fully surrendered to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
For the record — I’m not a Calvinist, and MacArthur specifically condemns my denomination in his book. I do not believe in works salvation. But I also don’t believe in easy-believism or a sinning religion.
Royce said:
“trying to decide if the misrepresentations laid out here are born of ignorance of purposeful deceit?”
His answer is so typical of the games LS and Calvinists play. Lou Martuneac challenged recently ALL Lordship believers to quote one opposing author that fairly represents what the Lordship advocates believe and teach, and none would come forward as usual. They all cry “misrepresentations.” I believed in Lordship salvation very strongly for over 10 years and now I am told that I never believed it by them?????
Ex-preacherman, have you ever seen the movie Pink Panther with Peter Sellers??? If you have then do you recall how Chief Inspector Dreyfuss eye would always twitch whenever Inspector Clouseau would start talking due to the non-sense coming out of his mouth?? That is me with Lordship salvation. My eye starts twitching every time I hear “misrepresentations” as well as some of their arguments. Here are a few eye twitchers:
“I can’t believe that you continually condone sin. ”
Who does that comment represent here??? That’s some smoke being blown into the air.
“And those who are saved WILL AS A RESULT DO GOOD ”
Hmmm, I only know of ONE verse that implies the word “will” when it comes to our works. It is found in Galatians 5:16 where the believer himself chooses to walk after the Spirit that will keep him/her from the sins of the flesh.
Faith + Works = salvation (Romanism)
Faith + Nothing = Works = Salvation (LS) You can’t claim you are saved without works according to the LS position.
You can play all your word games but your system requires works. It is just a slight change from how Romanism words it. Romanism is honest by saying that Faith and works saves. LS says that we are saved by faith alone but if it is real faith then it will not be alone (my eye is twitching). No wonder the Catholic Apologist Robert Sungenis said that John MacArthurs teachings (TGAJC) is what the Catholics always have maintained.
It makes for an interesting study when you compare much of Calvinistic Lordship position to that of Arminians that teach you can lose your salvation. Arminians will say that if you fall away into sin then you have lost your salvation. Calvinists will say that if you fall away into sin then you were never saved to begin with. Both equally stress works and holiness unto the very end.
One said:
“I think we all agree that our fruit doesn’t save us, but neither does simply saying a prayer or going to church.”
Now who in here said that??? State the facts. I guarantee you that anyone here would deal with a person that places their faith in a prayer or church attendance. That was an empty argument.
So, did Paul seek repentance out of the Corinthians? Of course he did and so would we if we had people living as such in our churches. However, Paul did not bash them for it questioning their salvation but simply pointed out their blessed standing and how it ought to motivate right living. Paul was not harsh with these carnal believes as you find him with the Galatians who were trying to live right. Paul spoke grace and peace to the Corinthians and all the blessings they received in the beginning, but Paul with the Galatians spoke very harsh language. It seemed that Paul was more concerned with wrong doctrine than he was with wrong behavior when you study the two books. It is clear that the Corinthians didn’t fall from grace as the Galatians did but into it. Corinthians needed to see their position in Christ and how it should affect behavior.
Romans 6 does teach that we have become slaves to righteousness and that is due to belonging to Him who is righteous. We no longer have to obey sin. The passage deals much with positional truths about how we are no longer under law but under grace. It is sad that so many LS believers do not see that. They are so law and performance centered that they fail to see that it is those that are “under grace” that do not live under the dominion of sin. LS doesn’t recognize that because they either have fallen from grace or were never in it to begin with. You can’t mix law and grace and expect to be living under grace. Yes I know, I am misrepresenting you even though most LS believes that we are no longer under the ceremonial law but the moral law.
Grace does teach a person to deny all manners of ungodliness. This is why it is important to teach grace that isn’t mixed with anything. LS quotes many things backwards. They will tell a person essentially to deny all manners of ungodliness to experience grace (backwards). LS essentially will tell a person to go and sin no more so as not to be condemned when Scripture states that He does not condemn you to go and sin no more. It is backwards theology.
ByGraceAlone, Royce, are you guys happy in the Lord?? I have counseled enough LS believers and former LS believers to know that most of them are miserable. I even pointed some to Christ because their understanding of grace had been so perverted through faulty doctrine. I am currently counseling two men that are hurting spiritually and one of them even received direct counseling from John MacArthur himself. Are you both 100% assured that eternal life is yours? Does knowing that no works of yours can ever make you closer to God or even distance Himself from you? Does the fact that knowing that NO CONDEMNATION and NO SEPARATION absolutely bless your heart to know that no sin, no nothing can come between you and your God? Doesn’t the fact of knowing that this absolute and free pardon cause you to love God the more? Knowing that you can sin and still be pardoned make sin all the more ugly to you by knowing that? I have two emails and one message at my blog from pastors that just recently turned from their LS beliefs expressing the misery they had. I would love to approach both of you and stand within 12 inches from you and ask you if you are truly happy. I probably only met a couple that couldn’t flinch under such a question. Some try to get around the question, but many were honest and admitted that they were not happy. Many of them believed that this was the normal part of the Christian life. No, it is a part of wrong doctrine being taught and believed. That is why Paul said to the Galatians who added some law to their walk, “What has happened to your joy?” Have you two ever known joy? Joy is not found in your daily performance but in a relationship.
“I have been under the weather the last few days.”
ExP – Hopefully you did not have that stinking Swine Flu. My family and I just got over it and it nearly killed us. No kidding…
Thanks Stickin’ for standing in the gap while I have been under the weather the last few days.
MacArthurites and Calvinists always revert to ridiculous analogies and contradictory, anti-Biblical rhetoric.
As Stickin’ has so well said, all the specious arguments presented by those who would try to excise God’s salvation from anyone who has truly, personally made the decision to trust Christ alone as Savior are meant to render doubt and fear in a believer and take away the Grace that God gives so freely — undeserved..
As anyone can see, by reading these two complete posts on MacArthur and Chan, MacArthur’s quotes contradict themselves frequently, depending upon to whom he speaks and the slant of whichever book of the day one may choose — and Chan is no different.
Thanks Stickin’ and others who have defended true Grace — Salvation, free by individual, personal choice with no strings attached, Salvation that does not depend on whether one sins once — twice — or however many times.
It must be a terrible thing as a MacArthurite or a Calvinist, living a lie and not knowing for sure if you are heaven bound — simply because you think you may have sinned too much.
We do not condone sin of any kind, we abhor it — but believers in Christ still have the old sin nature. If we become servants to the old nature, we are sinning — being disobedient to our Savior — but disobedience does not affect our salvation since we are eternally secure in Jesus Christ. Sin never affects our standing in Christ, only our fellowship — the state of our life in Christ and with other believers.
And if anyone claims they do not sin — they lie.
See 1 John 1:10
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Stickin’ One other question…
How many of those Corinthians does the Bible explicitly say were saved? Paul was correcting a very, very sinful church. And every church consists of both saved and unsaved, only God knows which is which. But are we told that the entire group received salvation? Where? Was Paul not seeking repentence!? Did they live out the remainder of their lives in rampant sin? You make many assumptions!
Why are you not striving for righteousness! Do you seek to comfort those who mock God by claiming to be Christian yet living like the Devil?
Patty, if you go back to the very beginning of this site you will find that Pastor Jack has already answered all of your questions very clearly. See especially his link: https://expreacherman.wordpress.com/eternal-life-for-you/
So, would I be correct in assuming that you would consider “a life lived for Christ” to be optional for the Christian?
Is it really correct to say we are saved by faith? Aren’t we saved by GRACE through faith? And is faith really faith if it isn’t accompanied by action? Can we abide in Christ without obeying His commands (John 15)?
I’m not trying to be argumentative. I’m just trying to get a handle on what you are saying.
Neither I, nor Pastor Jack, nor anyone else that I have read on this site condones, desires or encourages sin or an ungodly lifestyle in any way! To suggest that would be a complete misunderstanding of what this site is about. The point is simply this: A true believer is saved by faith in Christ alone (the gospel message of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, 1 Cor. 15:1-5; “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,” Acts 16:31). That’s it. Of course, we all should agree that a life lived for Christ is what God wants for us and such a lifestyle is what will bring the greatest joy and fulfillment.
For a list of questions designed to encourage L.S. adherents to take an honest look at their beliefs, see: http://www.gracelife.org/resources/gracenotes.asp?id=11
Stickin’ –
I have been studying the Bible for many years and must say that I would have never thought of taking the scriptures, for instance, the letter to the Corinthians, as a license for sin to be allowed in the body of Christ. I have never heard that argument until I read this blog! I can’t believe that you continually condone sin. Shouldn’t we be crying out in repentance? Shouldn’t we do everything we can to help those “carnal believers” you mention to see that they need to grow? They will never see it if those who are supposed to be mature condone it.
Although my question may be a bit exaggerated, it is not ridiculous… and so you eloquently avoided the question. It is, and has been happening in various parts of the world, since the days of the early church.
Asiarep
You wrote: “To be sure of our salvation we need not look at our fruit — we believe in Christ and then look at the verse, I John 5:13.”
1 John 5:13 says that John writes “these things” so they would know that they had eternal life. What are the things he wrote?
1 John 3:6 “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seenhim or known him.”
1 John 3:9 “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.”
Wouldn’t it be safe to say that not sinning is a fruit of being a Christian, and that the radical change in your life is somehow an evidence and assurance that you are indeed saved?
I tend to think what Chan was saying was that you can’t think that just because you go to church or said a prayer 25 years ago that you’re automatically saved. If Christ is IN you and you have a relationship with Him, then there should be some obvious differences in your life. Doesn’t every branch that is in Him bear fruit? (John 15).
I think we all agree that our fruit doesn’t save us, but neither does simply saying a prayer or going to church. Our salvation is by God’s grace, and when we come into a relationship with Him and sense His Spirit within us and find ourselves wanting to follow Him more than doing our own thing (a miracle in itself), it does reassure our hearts that He has indeed done a work in our hearts.
Otherwise, what’s the difference between a Christian and a non-Christian other than destination?
BGATF: Your arguments were answered strongly and clearly by Pastor Jack, by Dave and by me on Pastor Jack’s first blog site on the subject. Take some time to go back and review them. I do not wish to regurgitate all of that here. See: https://expreacherman.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/john-macarthur-lordship-salvation/
Stickin’ …
On one level I completely agree, it is entirely possible for an outwardly “lukewarm Christian” to be saved. No argument.
But what concerns me is the misrepresentation of your “Calvinist” sources. Being Calvinist (as I am) does not make one a believer in “salvation by works”. You are confused!! You are “Free Will” folks, we are “Sovereignty” folks. No person can take away my salvation because it was predetermined and is maintained by God. Ironically, your salvation, “chosen” by your “Free Will”, seems secure to you. The irony is amazing. You trust in yourself. What does the Bible say about the heart?
And yet again… not one of us… Chan, Macarthur included, say you are saved by works. You create a windmill to joust with my brother. A straw man to light on fire. You argue with yourself!
Your defense of “lukewarm” Christianity” is highly suspect. Would you fight so hard for God’s glory! Does the offense of sin put you into a state of extreme sorrow. Do you mourn God’s Son hanging on a tree for the things you and I have done. Why did Paul write to the Corinthians in the first place, if not to right the wrong or rampant sin.
Did Old Testament Saints have Jesus words, and the Holy Spirit dwelling within, to guide them?
Asiarep:
Your scenario appears to be a ridiculous hypothetical designed to inflame passions and to obfuscate the simple straightforward biblical teaching of salvation by faith in Christ alone apart from works. Furthermore, in your script you make absolutely no allowance for the keeping power of God in the life of a true believer. John 10:27-30 assures the believer that he or she will be kept safe and secure by the Father and by the Son: “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all [certainly greater than any Muslim radical]; NO ONE can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” Of course, works “should” follow, but they are an outward evidence of the salvation that has already been secured eternally by faith in Christ alone—See, for example, Titus 3:5, John 3:16, Eph. 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31 and Rom. 4:5.
Biblical cases abound of true believers who might be labeled “lukewarm”: Lot was a backslider his entire adult life, yet Peter calls him a righteous man in 2 Peter 2:7. Samson was a womanizer, David was a murderer, yet both are listed in the Hebrews 11 Hall of Faith. The Corinthian church was filled with worldly spiritual babes, much like the Laodicean church of Revelation 3, yet Paul refers to them often as “brothers!”
I would like to pose a hypothetical question… Suppose the US was taken over by radical muslims who forced all churches to be used for the worship of allah… They implemented their own laws and said that all must fall to their knees at set times of the day in worship of allah, lest they be killed . Furthermore, anyone found calling on the name of Jesus would be tortured as an example to others. Seems it would be easy to see who the lukewarm people are. They would be falling to their knees as instructed to save their own skins and of course they would not be caught with the name of Jesus on their lips. According to you, these people are all going to heaven with eternal salvation because they believed in Jesus, regardless of what they do. I should hope you would not say that those who reject the Lord to save themselves have eternal salvation. What do you say? Is what people do in this situation important?
Asiarep
Awwww Royce,
You aren’t very kind with your comments.
The least you could do is itemize the “outrageous lies” of which you speak. That is expected from a man like you who proclaims he speaks the truth.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
….trying to decide if the misrepresentations laid out here are born of ignorance of purposeful deceit? Taken at face value there are some outrageous lies being bantered about here.
One encouraging thing is that expreacherman is an “ex” preacher.
I am still troubled by the fact that many of the previous comments seem to be an effort to condone sin. Any teaching on Grace that makes one feel comfortable in sin is not Biblical. The Scriptures are clear that we are to be holy as He is holy. Paul declares in Titus 2:11-15:
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
If people feel comfortable in their sin because “all sin,” then there is an issue. Aren’t ministers those appointed by God to exhort and correct? Let us be about this business. Teach people to know Jesus for He WILL transform their lives… not SHOULD… as if Jesus is powerless to save. When their lives are transformed, what will be the result?
Asiarep
For all Free Grace friends: please continue to get the warning out about the Chan Book, “Crazy Love.” It is currently #2 on the Evangelical Christian Booksellers bestsellers list! It is being pushed by a lot of pastors nationwide to their congregations to try to stimulate more activity for God (I guess?). It has the potential to do a lot of harm in the Christian community, pushing a false works-oriented “gospel.”
Bro. Jack,
Thank you! I didn’t feel ignored at all, especially by you my dear brother.
Bro. David,
Didn’t mean to ignore you. Glad to see you back with us.
Our Victory is always IN Christ.. Praying for you.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
BGATF
You asked: “I suspect you believe that God could prepare, and we could ignore? True?”
Absolutely — God prepared our Salvation in Jesus Christ by faith in Him alone — and millions ignore His Great Gift of Salvation — among other methods, by looking for ways (Perseverance, etc) to justify themselves before Him.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Meant to say… “And to be honest ExP…” in prior comment.
I really don’t intend to bother you. And to be ExP, all of our “works” are filthy rags and COULD NEVER SAVE US, I get it. People inspect each others fruit just to justify themselves. Understood.
But sticking with Ephesians 2:10, if God prepared “works” beforehand, then how is it that we would not do them. Herein lies our difference. I believe that God is sovereign, and it is impossible to do anything “outside His will”.
We can have the Greek scholars debate this one…”should/would”. I suspect you believe that God could prepare, and we could ignore? True?
BGATF,
You make a “works” salvation sound so enticing.. but what you say is a lie.
You said:
“And those who are saved WILL AS A RESULT DO GOOD (albiet totally insufficient)WORKS!! Why…because they love God ;-)”
Wrong. Had you looked at Scripture and said “SHOULD” do good works (Eph 2:10) instead of “WILL” you would be closer to truth.
How many good works must you do to prove to God we love him? One? ten? Thousands? None? How much must I love God?
And if we trust Christ as our Savior but never do a good work, you imply (as does MacArthur) we were “not willing to pay the price” thus never saved?
Terrible doctrine counter to God’s FREE Grace.
John 3:16 “…He (God) gave His only begotten Son (Jesus), that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
When we trust Jesus Christ (believe in Him) as our Savior, we do not need to prove anything more to God to secure or keep our salvation. Because we are then IN CHRIST JESUS eternally, with or without good works.
“And be found in Him (Christ), not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”
Phil 3:9 (KJV)
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Again Dave!
You misunderstand, or worse, misrespresent what Macarthur is teaching brother!!
We are saved by grace!! Period!! No more to add. Selah! Praise God!!
And those who are saved WILL AS A RESULT DO GOOD (albiet totally insufficient)WORKS!! Why…because they love God 😉
Is this really that difficult to understand?
Thanks bro. Dave! It’s a joy to hear from you. As it is also from you my dear bro. Jack. Been away awhile, kinda fighting a spiritual battle, appreciate prayers. The Lord Jesus Christ is faithful, though & I am in Him forever! God Bless you my dear brothers in Christ!
Great points again, Dave,
LS is absolutely a “feelgood” counterfeit — invoking the law rather than Grace.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Hello ExPreacherman Jack,
I’m a little late in joining this discussion but was reading one of the comments that 1st John must be about works to prove salvation and that a believer cannot habitually sin. I have to say that I am sorely disappointed with how people handle the word of God. The word “habitual” is not there in the Greek but they insert it anyways because the present tense was used. This amazes me as no qualifiers are needed by such people to know whether habitual was implied or not. The devil sinneth “from the beginning” was a qualifier to let us know that it meant habitual. It never says that a believer can’t sin from the beginning but that he or she cannot SIN. 1st John 5:16 says that there is “A SIN” singular but they still play present tense games and will claim that “A SIN” singular refers to the habitual practice???? I feel sorry for young teenage boys because of their raging hormones as their lust is a huge problem. However, LS covers that one by saying that since they are fighting against it doesn’t make it habitual. Preacher Jack, can you imagine standing before a judge after killing a bunch of people telling him that you are not a present tense murderer because you didn’t like what you were doing and tried to stop yourself????? You just might win the insanity plea with such a belief.
The present tense is the second most used tense next to the aorist in the NT but RARELY does it ever mean continual. The Greek has words for “continual” such as “continue in prayer” but it never states that a believer cannot “continue in sin.” In fact, to “continue in sin” is what Paul warned us believers against. Paul NEVER expressed that it was impossible for the believer to “continue in sin” but that it was illogical.
I love the NIV and the NASV and how they contradict each other. According to 1st John 3:6, the NIV tells us that a believer cannot continue to sin. However, in the NASV, 1st Timothy 5:20 says that we are to rebuke believers that “continue in sin” before all. How can we rebuke such a person when according to our LS and NIV Bible that such a believer CAN’T continue in sin???? This is what happens when someone reads their theology into Scripture as they end up being contradicted.
Preacher Jack, don’t you find it amusing that even LS advocates have their own exception clause to believers that fall into continual sin??? Even the Westminster Confession of Faith says that a believer can fall into gross sins for a season. Even John Calvin admitted this in his commentary on 1st John. To claim that a believer can fall into sin for months or even years but will not be considered a habitual sinner as long as he/she comes back to the faith before death is a LAUGHABLE CONTRADICTION. These self righteous legalist are only fooling themselves.
Their position on 1st John is laughable as well. If you compare many of 1st John’s comments to the gospel of John then you can see that faith is in focus. I have LS advocates that preach 3rd John 11 to me also claiming that one isn’t saved by good works but that one must be good if he is saved?????????????????????????? I have to show him the parallel verse in John 5 that the “good” and the “bad” will one day be raised unto eternal life or damnation but “good” and “bad” is referring to those that either believes or rejected the message and not their behavior (start at verse 24).
They quote 1st John 2:3 as proof that a believer will keep the commands of God to be saved. These goofs miss that John defined what those commands are in 1st John 3:23. The commands are to believe and love. The command was not “Make Jesus lord of your life” or “you better do these following rules or else.” 1st John even defines who it is that loves God and the brethren in 1st John 5:1-2. Jesus said to the Pharisees that refused to believe that they did not have the “love of God in them.” Those that do not love God or the brethren are those that do not believe. Jesus more than once said that if a person loves Him then they will receive His message. This is also why John distinguished between this love and the love that “ought” (1st John 3:16) to lay his life down for the brethren. That type of love that doesn’t shut up its bowel of compassion. They type of love that loves in deed and in truth. Two loves were clearly being distinguished just as sons of light should walk as sons of light (eph. 5:8). Only those that hate will reject the light but those that embrace the light loves is what Scripture teaches. And those that love “ought” to demonstrate it and not that we automatically will.
We must remember too that the disciples in John 17 were said to have “kept thy word” but within hours of that prayer ALL of them fled as this had nothing to do with habitual obedience as LS defines it. They have kept thy word because they have believed in His name and this is what 1st John is about (see John 6:39-40). John was pointing out the false teachers among them that rejected the apostles doctrine. These false teachers stuck out like a sore thumb. If you reject the apostles message then you cannot claim to love anyone that is a believer. A believer can clearly hate and for LS to deny that is to encounter a huge problem in Scripture. This is why they have to run to the “habitual” argument theory because their system crumbles in the light of Scripture. Rejection of truth is to hate God. To reject the Son is to hate God and those that believe His message. This is what I believe LS is truly guilty of themselves.
1st John reveals what the commands are and so does the gospel of John in chapter 6. I get tired of the game playing.
It is amazing that Scripture teaches that it is grace that teaches us to deny all manners of ungodliness. However, our LS heretics teach that “YOU WILL” (Law) if you are saved when the Scripture doesn’t address us in such a way. The only verse that says that a believer shall not do something is in Galatians 5 that is conditioned upon whether we walk in the Spirit or not. Instead, they prefer to rely on verses that they add words nowhere stated to it. They have perverted grace and it is my honest opinion that I have no hope for the salvation of any LS believer that has never embraced free grace.
Dear Mr. Jack,
Its been awhile since our last discussion and I hope you are well.
I have read the previous comments with some amazement. I am unable to relate to your statement that those who believe in Jesus “should” change, but that no change is required. I can not come to a place in my mind or heart where I can see that position working in the context of the Lord’s body.
Let’s suppose that we are working among a tribal group which practices various forms of witchcraft and of course are head-hunters. We would consider our mission successful if… not only the tribesmen believe in Jesus, but also forsake their canabalism and witchcraft. This would be the “evidence” that the gospel has taken effect. We would never report that brother “so and so” is saved but is still contending with a small habit… that he eats people… but its better, instead of eating one person per month he only kills and eats one every six months! We would of course believe, and rightly so, that the power of God is capable of setting him free if he will believe. Knowing that when they believe His power can work in them and make them free… that they can’t call themselves Christians while murdering others and eating them for dinner.
How can we condone such vulgar sins among believers, such as has been mentioned in previous comments? Would our Lord be pleased with such as this? I don’t want to be the one to stand before the Lord and explain the “carnality.” Heb 13:17 comes to mind, “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who MUST GIVE ACCOUNT. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”
The more we magnify God and speak of His greatness, majesty and holiness, the more people can relate to His love and grace. The more they will be unhappy and displeased with faults in their lives. However if we tell them simply believe, go your way but fail to say “sin no more” aren’t we denying the power of the Gospel?
Also, I recently read a story about a classmate of mine in high school years ago who seemed to be the “model” christian among her peers. She came from a family who loved God. However years later she has admitted to having struggled with her sexuality and has “come out of the closet.” She still says that she believes in Jesus and goes to a “gay church.” We can not tell such a person that they are ok since they believe in Jesus… as the scriptures are clear on this point. I hope that you would agree that such a person is deceived and doesn’t believe in the same Jesus.
I simply want to please the Lord unto whom I have been called.
Asiarep
Diana,
Thanks for entering this conversation.
We do not hold to Calvinism, Reformation theology, the Roman Catholicism represented by Augustine or Wesleyan Arminianism
We hear the Gospel, we make a decision to believe in Jesus Christ to be our Savior and then we are guaranteed everlasting life. That is God’s Grace. No one ever deserves to have or keep eternal life,
The “another gospel”: of which Paul spoke was and is a false gospel of works for — and to keep one’s salvation. It is a lie,
Thanks for the thoughts.
In Jesus Christ externally,
ExP(Jack)
Just to add I hold to the sola’ scripture alone, meaning, its the finished work of Christ, predestined- I do not hold to Lordship Salvation teaching which again are variants of pelagism,amaldyrism, and views of later new presbyterians. Explore church history apart from a superficial level, and you will be amazed at how the same struggles that Paul referred to as another gospel appear.
Grace
Think Amayldarism, or pre-venient grace. This cancer has eaten away at church doctrine since its birth. Please I am not setting my self up as an example for I had to be re-taught by God’s grace. (this just may be the works that God prepared beforehand in Christ Jesus, his teaching me through painful trials right doctrine, and that my friends is his will to produce fruit) now that is a work given in His pre ordained grace, all by Him alone. Thankfully.
Royce,
Your last comment indicates you have not read my article or my comments carefully.
God’s Word (via the Apostle Paul) says that every believer is the possessor of two natures, the old sin nature and the new divine nature from Jesus Christ the moment we believe in Him.
And as Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, writes in:
Romans 7:20-25
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
A new creation (a new nature from God) exists for the believer… but we still have the old flesh nature as well which we must deal with until we go to Heaven to be with our Savior. We nourish the new nature (walk in [be obedient to] the Spirit and we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.) Galatians 5:16.
The outcome I desire is that people will make a decision to trust Jesus Christ only — for their eternity — let them rest in that assurance and understand clearly that they are Heaven bound, and nothing or no one can separate them from their Savior !!! He is The Savior, the One who SAVES.
After that is totally clear to them, I want them to study God’s Word and realize that they have the privilege of sharing that extremely Good News with everyone they meet, and that their behavior will affect their testimony as they share the Gospel.
Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation [behavior or manner of life] be as it becometh [enhances] the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Salvation is a voluntary decision to trust Christ …then after that to serve our Savior is likewise a voluntary decision. Neither is coerced, forced or mandatory. That is Grace.
I am never satisfied with my own life nor of those I lead to Christ or shepherd. We will never be as perfect as our Savior as hard as we strive.. but we should strive to be. But likewise we must never infer to the believer that because he is not living up to our behavioral standard, he is not really a believer. He knows and God knows and therefore we should encourage him, not threaten him.
That is why we should always preach a clear Gospel of the simplicity that is in Christ at every meeting, every service and in every conversation. Thereby giving anyone who is trusting in their behavior to give them eternal life — the Truth that faith in Jesus Christ alone is the ONLY way to eternal life, never behavior.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Royce,
There you go again… putting the believer under legalism and works to be or stay saved.
In I Corinthians chapter 1, Paul speaks to the people in the church at Corinth as Brothers in Christ..
These Corinthians were living in an abhorrent a lifestyle as one could imagine. But Paul says they were still saved. There is a difference between the state and standing of a believer as represented by Paul’s letters to the Corinthians. Our state is terrible but our standing is perfect and eternal IN Jesus Christ. You MUST read and study your Bible in context.
No sane believer has suggested or would suggest that we should live in sin and disobedience. A large part of the Bible is written to tell BELIEVERS how they SHOULD live… because they/we aren’t doing it.
Ephesians 2:10 still says and will always will say that we “SHOULD” walk in good works, NOT must!!! Can you not read that and all corresponding verses and understand God’s Grace?
Every believer should be obedient — but even you admit you are a sinner. But whether habitual, continual, sometimes or occasionally, sin is missing the mark of God’s absolute perfection. That is why we have an eternal Savior and Advocate in Jesus Christ.
Romans 7:18-21
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. [19] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. [20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
We can thank our Savior Jesus Christ, that when we are in Him, God does not see our sin but the righteousness that is Christ Jesus. How else could we EVER KNOW we have eternal life (I John 5:13) except for the saving Grace of Jesus Christ. If Heaven depended upon our behavior, we would all be lost eternally. Heaven depends on our one time decision to put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ to do what He claims — to SAVE us eternally. He is not a probation officer but The Savior!!
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Just for clarification, what in your view is the difference in the life of a person who has been born again and a person who is dead in their sins? It seems from what your write the answer is nothing. I don’t really believe that is what you think but could you clear it up for me?
I hope we both want the same outcome. Don’t we share the hope that Christ’s own family will live lives of holiness and make him known to others? Are you satisfied with so called believer whose lives do not reflect the Christ? I don’t think you are.
Royce
Amen Royce!!!!!
I never said a Christian never sins, that is NOT what 1 John teaches. All of us sin at times but not one of us who sins as a lifestyle, habitually doing so is saved. Why else would 1 John make all the statements it does?
Eph 2:10 does say: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”
“Created for good works”, “which God prepared feforehand”, “that we should walk in them”. It seems clear to me what the intention of God is regarding the life of a believer. A person who does the opposite of good works is not one who is born from above.
The idea that a person is saved who lives like hell is fiction.
Royce
Royce,
Then you are trying to tell us you never sin and are always obedient to the Lord? Never happen!
IF I John 5:13 -21 proves that Christians never sin, why does John exhort the believers not to sin:
1 John 5:21
“Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen”.
If you would study the doctrine of the two natures of a believer, you will see that is specifically what John is teaching.
Royce, aren’t you happy that Ephesians 2:10 does NOT say we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we MUST walk in them or we are not saved or may lose our salvation?.
Eternal life for a person who trusts Christ for his salvation is saved ETERNALLY regaredless of his works. God does not need to see our works to know we are saved!! Our Advocate is Jesus Christ.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
correction: either “absense” or “void” should have been left out.
You mentioned 1 John 5 and you are correct, only those who have Christ have eternal life. However, the rest of 1 John tells us what a Christian looks like. The passages are crystal clear. those who do not conform to what 1 John teaches are not “in Christ” or have Christ “in them”.
Ephesians 2 teaches salvation by grace through faith, a point upon which we all agree. It also teaches that we are created by God (new birth) specifically to do good works. The clearest evidence one is not in the faith is the absense of a life void of works that fit repentance.
I am not a Calvinist, not a Lordship salvation teacher, but don’t make the mistake of picking and choosing what to believe that fits your brand of theology.
If you read ALL of what Jesus taught (the words in red) how could you reach any other conclusion than that Christ demands our all? The answer is you can’t. Chan might be wrong on some things but not what you mentioned.
Royce
Dawn,
Thanks for dropping by to comment..
The entire argument is about correct Bible Doctrine.
LS teaching is contrary to correct Bible doctrine of Salvation in Christ totally apart from any works — to gain or keep Salvation..
If I read extensive quotes from an author that contradicts clear Bible teaching, I do not need to read the entire tome to get the gist of his philosophy.
I trust the observations and quotes from Chan by my good friend “Stickin’ to The Bible” enough to know that Chan is not recommended reading for a serious believer in the Purity and simplicity of the Bible and Salvation in Jesus Christ.
Dawn, do you agree with the above quotes from Chan?
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
I read all these comments,
I read Francis Chan’s book, and didn’t find it all that repulsive, or unbiblical, I guess that makes me an “LS”
It doesn’t bother me, people will disagree forever about theology, and interpretation of the scriptures. It’s been 500 years since we started being able to read them ourselves, clearly it’s not all sorted out yet.
I do take issue tho, to people commenting on things they haven’t read, we wouldn’t want people pulling verses out of the bible and commenting on them, without understanding the context, or reading them fully. And i think this should be treated the same way. If you don’t like it, and don’t want to read it, fine, but you shouldn’t blog about something you haven’t read.
CJ,
You might try reading my blog more carefully. You make an error in your comment.
I stated specifically that I never read Chan’s book.
You say “Tim Keller is loosely associated with Rick Warren.” I learned a long time ago — “associated” is associated whether loosely or tightly. Knowing Warren’s theology is is enough for me to avoid Keller.
You say Keller is “ordained in the PCA [Presbyterian Church in America] and (used to) professor at Westminster Theological Seminary.” I am personally very familiar with the PCA and that is an absolute non-recommendation for me.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Thanks Ashley and Stickin’
Ashley, I could not get the file to download… but knowing the discernment of Stickin; to The Bible, I will accept his evaluation.
We MUST use discernment when we read or listen to preachers. A presentation may seem Biblical but one or two thoughts in a presentation that contradict Scripture must be rejected. The whole is the sum of its parts. Just a tad of leaven leavens the whole lump.
Mr Chan’s words, quoted by Stickin’; are sufficient for me to know that Chan’s teachings are not scriptural.
I pray we take God’s Word and believe it rather than man’s. Lost souls are at stake.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Wow!
You jumped to multiple conclusions quicker than I give you credit for.
Your blog implies you read Chan’s book, yet you won’t even bother reading Tim Keller? Just b/c he’s loosely associated with Rick Warren??
I tell you this much: Tim Keller is one of the most prominent theologians and pastors, ordained in the PCA and (used to) professor at Westminster Theological Seminary.
Rick Warren?? Jack, please. They’re not on the same plane nor associated as closely as you assume. It’s like saying Rick Warren is a disciple of Bob Jones because they’re both Baptists!
Ashley:
Thanks for writing. I appreciate your honest thoughts.
I will always take content over delivery or sincerity. Yes, I have watched and listened to several of Chan’s sermons, including the one that you cited, and I have read carefully Chan’s book, Crazy Love. Chapters 4 and 5 of the book spell out clearly his theology which has been cited fairly above. I don’t doubt that his intention or goal is to stimulate committed Christian living. But at what price? If the goal is accomplished by promoting a works-oriented “gospel” which destroys many Christians’ assurance of salvation, has it all been worth the price?
How about we all have a listen to the delivery instead of inaccurately summarizing the extensiveness of the complexity of layers when it comes to Francis Chan’s teachings on lukewarmness. I encourage it:
http://www.URLRemovedByAdministrator
scroll down to 10/15/06 teaching titled: “Lukewarm and Lovin’ it!”
When it comes down to it, he’s “on point” about how we are to live our lives as disciples and followers of the character of Christ.
Blessings.
Ashley
CJ,
Thanks for dropping by and taking time to comment.
I must admit I have not read Keller. However, I will not be tempted since he has been listed as a writer for Reader’s Digest’s “Rick Warren Magazine.” This tells me he agrees with Warren and other of those magazine authors who espouse the Purpose driven, Emergent/Contemplative Spirituality movement such as Max Lucado, Bill Hybels, Kay Warren and Lee Strobel.
In exactly what way does Keller address Costly Grace? And do I assume you are drawing a parallel between “Costly Grace” and “Free Grace”?
And how do you and/or Keller define “Lordship Salvation”, “Faith-only” and the difference between them?
Without specifically addressing these points in detail, it appears you are pushing the book with a teaser comment, just as Keller teased with his title, “The Prodigal God.”
The word “Prodigal” is not in the Bible and, in the context of the referenced verses in Luke 15:11-32, and especially the common usage of the word “prodigal,” it means wasteful or reckless squanderer. There is no resemblance to those commonly accepted definitions of the word and my God, my Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack
Stickin’
Thanks for the update on Chan.
Yes it is sad to see so many people being misled by a pastor and his books.
We must continue in the Truth, salvation in Jesus Christ alone — nothing more and nothing less.
In Jesus Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Dear Pastor Jack:
Here is a final footnote on Francis Chan:
I viewed several of his sermons on YouTube video, to see if his preaching is as harsh and mean-spirited as his writing. In a sermon preached to his own Cornerstone Church of Simi Valley, CA, given in October of 2006, entitled, “Lukewarm and Loving It,” he compares his own congregation to the rich young ruler of Luke 18. He tells them that they are rich, rich, rich, one hundred times richer than half of the world. Then he quotes Luke 18:24-25, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” He then ties this text in with Rev. 3:14-20. Using poor exegesis he teaches that the entire church at Laodicea was lost and bound for hell [clearly, verses 19 and 20 in particular indicate that Jesus was addressing backslidden believers but believers to be sure—“Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline.”] Then he compares his own congregation to the Laodicean church, intimating that he believes the majority of them to be lukewarm and bound for hell. Many, many of you are going to hell!, Chan said to his own people.
I was curious to see how Chan’s church reacted to his unloving words of condemnation. In his follow-up sermon, two weeks later, he said that there was an abundance of positive response to his message; there was also much negative feedback. And the pastoral staff was flooded with church goers who asked, “What should we do? What should we do?”
How sad to see a group of Christians living in such bondage.
Stickin;,
Piper is first and foremost known as one of the idols of Calvinism and Reformed theology. I do not read his writings for that reason — thus I am not sure of his LS position.
Most Reformed teachers are also LS.
Understood about your comments re: Cucuzza and Piper.
In Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Hello again: Just to be clear for your readers, of course I was referring to John Piper in reference to LS/Strong Calvinist teaching. Dr. Cucuzza writes clearly in oppostion to LS/Calvinist theology.
Hi Pastor Jack:
I trust that you are feeling better. Dr. Cucuzza’s book, as I recall, cites a few quotations from John Piper. I know that he is a very popular writer and conference speaker. Would you categorize his teachings and his theology as being largely the same as John MacArthur’s in the area lordship salvation? Is he an ardent proponent of LS/Strong Calvinist theology, as is MacArthur?
Bro. Jack,
The main thing about Shane Claiborne seems to be that they stress bringing in the Kingdom of God now rather than pointing lost sinners to Christ. Certainly there is some good & truth in what is said, but what is missing is deadly, mainly that only through faith in Christ can we be saved, & then only can good works come from us through God’s power as we submit to Him. A clear Gospel is missing, as I see it. The gravest danger seems to be that it sounds so good, but leaves out the main thing. May the Lord bless you bro. Jack. BTW, I believe that there is a close resemblance between Chan & Claiborne.
Stickin’,
Thanks for your update on Chan. I know that my humble Blog is not enough to change the minds of millions, but every little drop of truth we can share helps.
In Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
I had deleted this comment because it was so inane.. but decided that it should be posted just to show the mind of LS and Calvinist folks.
What a pity that so many folks just don’t understand simple Scripture.
ExP(Jack)
From “SolaTheSola’s” posted on Thursday, 2 Apr 2009 13:47:36
Bro. David,
Thanks for your comment.
Would you share what you know about Claiborne? Don’t recall him in the growing cast of nefarious Lordship Salvation characters.
A works salvation message is always accursed regardless of who preaches it.
In Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Bro. Dave,
Wonderful insights!
Bro. Jack, glad you are batter & we pray you will continue to improve.
STTB,
Thanks for alerting us to Chan’s books. I noticed “Crazy Love” on the shelf at a Lifeway Bookstore yesterday. Another one much like him is Shane Claiborne. Have you heard of him? Same old same old errors. The danger of these to so many is that there is enough truth mixed in with deadly error as to attract many.
Updates on Francis Chan:
Chan appeared nationwide (and worldwide) to millions on television in February on the Hour of Power program. There are thousands of websites which speak about his church and his book. Chan also recently signed a muliple-book deal with David C. Cook Publications of Colorado Springs, so you can expect that his influence will be felt far and wide for many years to come.
Dave and Stickin’,
A plethora of wonderful comments and observations. These are great additions to my Blog, and I appreciate your research and efforts.
It is a shame to see Brothers in Christ so blind to the error permeating our churches.
Thanks for asking about my health. I am feeling some better these days and pray I will be blogging again soon.
In Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Thanks, Dave, for your most insightful comments! The reason that I bring up these quotations from Francis Chan is because his book “Crazy Love” is on the Christian bestsellers list. In addition, he has a popular website and DVD set to accompany the book. So, sadly, his teachings are very pervasive and influential in the Christian community right now!
I am always amazed as to how Lordship salvation will argue their reasoning into Scripture. I do not know who this Francis Chan is but he sounds a little dingy.
It is my opinion that the reason many people ask whether they can divorce and still go to heaven and so on is all due to a works oriented gospel out there. Instead of grace teaching a person to deny all manner of unrighteous, the church uses fear and hell instead and then their version of grace to add the cherry on top.
The reasons for those type of questions has to do with the confusion that is out there today. Francis Chan should note that most Lordship people I know ask such questions as they live under the weight of guilt and not those that are free grace and have a KNOW SO assurance. Even those that have been exposed to LS heresy but never fully joined into their teaching will tend to ask such questions too. Such questions come from a person that does not truly understand grace but views God only as an angry judge and not a heavenly Father. They are under law in many cases.
My son would never think to ask me, “Would you disown me if I were to do drugs?” My son would never think to ask me, “Can I still be loved by you even if I were to live as horrible as possible?” If my son were ever to ask me that then I must sit down and ask myself as to how I have been raising him. I obviously failed to reveal that I am a loving father that accepts him as he is. It is good loving parenting that should keep him from such horrid acts. It is very difficult to treat a person that expresses such love to us back with anything but love. Love begets love. We love Him because He first loved us.
To me it is obvious that the god of LS is nothing more than a god that expects A’s instead of B’s. Their god is nothing more than a god that walks about with a frown on his brow. Their god is nothing more than a god of conditional love based on good behavior. It should be no wonder that these law bound, guilt suffering people will be asking such questions as what Francis Chan shared.
It’s sad but if you read books by LS authors on salvation then they have always have to give a chapter on ‘How one can know they are saved.’ They always have a list of external actions that you must pass. Example: Do you love the brethren? Do you have answered prayer? Do you strive to obey? Do you try to refrain from every sin? I have yet to find exact same tests in LS books as some have more or less in there as tests and that is because it was invented by man. This list can go on and on. Most of these lists I have read never once asked, “Did you believe the right gospel?” Their books always centered on emotions and the externals.
Francis Chan should stop and evaluate his teaching and how it is ruining people. It shouldn’t take a rocket scientist to discover that such questions are the product of a works oriented gospel. Their teaching might cause some outward beauty where people don’t drink, smoke, do drugs and so on but are inwardly full of dead bones. Grace is what will change the heart and never fear. Fear might change the outward but it will never change the inward. They only will go through the motions but never will experience it personally.
Hope you are feeling better Jack!!
Dear Pastor Jack:
In case any of your readers still has any doubts about Francis Chan’s position in regard to lordship salvation theology, here are a few more telling quotations from his book, Crazy Love:
1. Referring to his [Chan’s] understanding of the discipleship passages of the Gospels, he comments (on page 85), “My conclusion? Jesus’ call to commitment is clear: He wants all or nothing. The thought of a person calling himself a “Christian” without being a devoted follower of Christ is absurd.”
2. On page 86, Chan makes a list of questions of the type which he says he hears most often: “Can I divorce my wife and still go to heaven? Do I have to be baptized to be saved? . . . . If I commit suicide, can I still go to heaven?” Following his list of questions he cites Jesus’ words in John 14:15, ‘If you love me, you will obey what I command.’ Then he remarks (page 86), “And our question quickly becomes even more unthinkable: Can I go to heaven without truly and faithfully loving Jesus? I don’t see anywhere in Scripture how the answer to that question could be yes.”
3. Now listen to these words of Chan (from page 87 of Crazy Love): “Some people claim that we can be Christians without necessarily becoming disciples. I wonder, then, why the last thing Jesus told us was to go into the world, making disciples of all the nations, teaching them to obey all that He commanded? You’ll notice that He didn’t add, ‘But hey, if that’s too much to ask, tell them to just become Christians—you know, the people who get to go to heaven without having to commit to anything.’ “
Stickin;,
Thanks — I will pass your note of thanks to Tom.. He will appreciate it.
You might want to write a Review on Amazon — your statements may encourage others to read it.
In Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Hello Pastor Jack:
Thank you for your recommendation of Dr. Thomas Cucuzza’s book, Secure Forever! It’s an outstanding work, straightforward, easy to read and completely biblical in every way! Dr. Cucuzza systematically and incontrovertibly dismantles the extreme Calvinist false teaching of perseverance. He even quotes John MacArthur himself (on page 89) in the candid admission, “lordship salvation is nothing other than the doctrine of perseverance!”
Richard,
So sorry to hear about your church. Keep preaching the Word center on the Simplicity that is in Christ.
Don’t blame yourself, A charismatic. silver tongued preacher can fool lots of folks with his lies..
We are praying for your strength — and that your church will return to Biblical principles.
In Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
I work in a small church in Lake City, Fl. I Have recently learned a big lesson in discernment. After two years of teaching about the grace of God, and that salvation is a free gift from God to those who will by faith simply accept it I was devistated by a recent set back. Out Pastor, who is clear in his teachings concerning salvation by faith, without works went on vacation for a week. He invited a guest speaker for last Sunday’s service (His son in law).
While listening to his message, it became increasingly clear that he did not understand, or believe in the Gospel of Grace. This Guest seaker stated that “The Bible tells us over and over again that we need to repent of our sins in order to make it into Heaven. ” Unfortunatly, to the suprise of many, there is not one place in the Bible, anywhere, that says we are to repent of our sins, for any reason.
This speaker also stated that we must completly surrender our lives over to the authority of the Lord. He Furter stated that our heart was live a big vaccume and we are to turn on the switch and suck Jesus right in.
I do not find this anyplace in the Bible. It is a false gospel and falls under the curse of God. Galations 1:8-9.
What troubled me the most though was the fact that many people, whom I have been working with and teaching the scriptures to sang praises to his name and talked about what a wonderful preacher he is.
I have failed to teach those in my church about discernment, or the ability to recognize a false message when they hear it.
Please pray for us, and for me that God would use me to do a better job in teaching those here the importance of , and how to discern what truly comes from the Bible and what are man made docterines.
Stickin’;
Your statement is absolutely true “..obedience to the Lord flows out of my love for him, not because I’m driven by a fear that I might not do enough!”
Safe and secure forever because the Lord promised. — No need to ever doubt His Word.
In Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Thanks Pastor Jack and Dave for your great comments. Thanks, too, Pastor Jack for providing this forum and other sites for discussion. It seems that many of the commenters on the LS side are so blinded, so arrogant, not even willing to look at the multitude of Scriptures which strongly refute their position. I have been a believer in Christ Jesus (since age 8) and I can honestly say that since that time I have never had a moment of doubt of my salvation because I’m not trusting in my own works but in Christ’s finished work on my behalf (Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, John 3:16, 18). What joy and confidence to live under complete assurance of salvation in Christ Jesus. And obedience to the Lord flows out of my love for him, not because I’m driven by a fear that I might not do enough!
Thanks Dave,
Great Biblical points.
Several are still commenting on my older post about MacArthurism at —
https://expreacherman.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/john-macarthur-lordship-salvation/#comments
Go over there and check out the latest comments.
Thanks for dropping by again.
In Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
I am always amazed as to how LS comes up with their own list of who is and who isn’t saved. Here again is the list you gave:
1. people who say they love Jesus but only include him as a part of their lives
2. people who are moved by stories about those who do what he calls, “radical things for Christ,” but they themselves do not do such things
3. people who rarely share their faith with others for fear of rejection
4. “Lukewarm People feel secure because they attend church, made a profession of faith at age twelve, were baptized, come from a Christian family, vote Republican, or live in America.”
And then say:
“As I see it, a lukewarm Christian is an oxymoron; there’s no such thing. To put it plainly, churchgoers who are “lukewarm” are not Christians. We will not see them in heaven.”
The only thing I agree with that list is number 4. There are people that have a misplaced faith in church, works, baptism or even upbringing. However, to say that people that do not do certain things or act a certain way are not saved is completely unfounded by Scripture.
Every time I hear that a Christian cannot be carnal then I ask for a specific verse that says that. If a believer can never fall away then where is the verse to prove that? If a believer can’t be carnal then where is the verse to prove that? It is sad that religion has decided how they will perceive God and then they approach Scripture to filter every verse that contradicts them through only what their feelings and reasoning tells them is right.
I had a debate with a LS advocate long ago that told me that Demas was never saved to begin with. I simply handed him my Bible and asked for any Bible verse that said that. He said that a believer cannot fall back into the world and die in such a condition. With my Bible still held out I asked him for such a verse. I again was told that a believer WILL bear fruit and I again asked for one verse that said that a believer WILL bear fruit. I only know of one verse that uses the word “will” and it is only to those that decide (not by force) to walk in the Spirit and such WILL not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
In Acts 19, we have believers that have been saved for 2 years that were messing around with sorcery. We clearly have the book of Corinthians that has Lordshipper’s claiming that they were not carnal but only had carnal ways about them……THEY WERE CARNAL AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DENY!!! I doubt any church behaving the way the church of Corinth was would be called ‘a church that has carnal ways about them.’
If Lot were alive today then would he be considered a Christian by LS standards? How about Solomon?? How about Samson? Would a man found sleeping with his step-mom be consider saved (1st Cor. 5) by LS standards? This list could go on and on.
LS makes up their own heresy. They teach that you can fall away into wanton sin but if you are truly saved then you will come back before dying. However, if you do not come back then you prove that you were never saved to begin with??????????? No Scriptural support at all for such a belief. Here is the amusing part, if you fall into the world and remain that way for 10 years but return to faith before death then you prove that you were saved before. BUT!!! If you were to fall into the sins of the flesh and die one week later still in that condition then it proves that you were never saved to begin with????
What garbage and foolish teaching. I can’t believe that I once strongly promoted Lordship salvation. Thank God that He was gracious enough to open my blind eyes and save me from that heresy.
Doug,
Thanks for your comment. We do not misunderstand, we see exactly what MacArthur writes and says. See my Blog on MacArthur at:
https://expreacherman.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/john-macarthur-lordship-salvation/
MacArthur’s Lordship salvation is not Biblical.
To be sure of our salvation we need not look at our fruit — we believe in Christ and then look at the verse, I John 5:13.
Our proof of our salvation is in Scripture not in our behavior or our fruit.
In Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
I think a lot of people misunderstand people like MacArthur, Piper, etc. They teach that we are saved by grace alone. The evidence of our salvation is our fruit. If we claim to be saved and there is no fruit in our lives, then we need to examine ourselves to see if we are truly saved. That is what MacArthur and Piper truly teach, which is biblical.
Lynda,
Great analysis… As believers we are His and he teaches and disciplines perfectly as a good Father His child.
A great verse for believers wanting to serve properly.
Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation {behavior] be as it becometh {enhances} the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
In Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Basically, when you are adopted into a family, you are expected to eventually learn the values of that family and conduct your behavior according to the accepted practices of that family. You are generally expected to work to the benefit of the family, at least once you are old enough.
God’s family is no different. He does not expect you to conform while you are learning, but He does expect you to learn. He won’t, however, kick you out if you don’t. He’ll just keep working on you!
He’s the Father. It’s His job to raise you right.
AOW,
Thanks… great observations.
Good works SHOULD be the evidence of one’s salvation (Ephesians 2:10) — but may not always be the case. (Example: carnal believers in Corinth).
The Lord does not need us but does desire that we, as believers, serve Him. Not to be saved but because we are.
That is His way of spreading the Gospel — People reaching People with the Gospel of Jesus Christ — voluntarily.
We have a choice to trust Christ as our Savior — likewise we have a choice as believers to serve Him.
In Christ eternally,
ExP(Jack)
Chan: “… To put it plainly, churchgoers who are “lukewarm” are not Christians. We will not see them in heaven.”
Works are the evidence of faith (and salvation). Chan’s statement is a give-away and contrary to the Gospel.
Yet, constantly works-based salvation draws followers. Why? In my view, it’s because man constantly seeks to elevate his own significance.
Fact is, God doesn’t need us!