Lordship Salvation: Not Out of The Woods

By johninnc

Matthew 7:20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 The late Jack Weaver, the founder of the Expreacherman ministry, used to say regarding people who corrupt the gospel: The woods is full of ‘em.

We have a mega-church in our community whose senior pastor is the “go to guy” for all matters of faith. He is a frequent guest on our biggest AM radio station, and he has been called upon for everything from commenting on tragedies that befall us, to providing testimonials for the quality of the ribs at a local restaurant.

I participated in a Bible study a few years back with some men from work. Several of the people in the group seemed to have some confusion about grace, and a couple of them were actively involved with this same mega-church.

In doing some research into their church, I found a startling disconnect between the church’s stated beliefs and what the senior pastor was actually teaching (please note that both the statement of faith and the senior pastor’s blog are on the church’s website, so his inconsistencies are in plain sight).

From “Core Beliefs:

Those who put their faith alone in Christ for Salvation are children of God and heirs of eternal life.

From the Senior Pastor’s blog:

Through my obedience, my Father has given me the final authority to execute judgment over all humanity. One day, everyone will hear my voice and appear before me in final judgment. Don’t marvel at this saying. It is true. This judgment will solely depend on those who have believed in me. John’s gospel repeatedly states this truth (3:16;5:24,25; 14:6). However, good and bad deeds will prove an individual’s faith. If good deeds aren’t there, it proves faith isn’t present. These people face eternal judgment. If good deeds are there, it proves faith is present and they are granted eternal resurrection life.

The senior pastor of this mega-church contradicts the gospel by insisting that works are necessary to prove that one has eternal life. The Bible does not teach this! In fact, the Bible is clear that one can have assurance of eternal life without waiting around to see if good works manifest themselves.

John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Further, from the church’s website:

Forest Hill Church has transitioned from its Presbyterian roots, off of Woodlawn Road in the 1950’s, to a non-denominational, multi-campus church emphasizing spiritual transformation and service to the least and lost in our neighborhoods and around the world. 

If they mean that the church has transitioned from its Calvinist (Presbyterian) roots, it appears to me that they really haven’t. No one can be spiritually transformed unless and until they have received eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Moreover, the Bible does not teach that spiritual transformation is inevitable for believers (see Romans 12:1-2).

Last, teaching a false gospel and getting people plugged into a doctrinally aberrant church, led by a doctrinally aberrant pastor is not doing them a service.

Ron Shea had this to say regarding doctrine that churches teach:

If you want to know the doctrine that a church teaches, don’t ask to read the doctrinal statement.  It may be gathering dust!  Meet several members of the congregation who have been there for at least three years.  Ask them what they believe about certain topics of theology.  These men and women are the real fruit of the pastor’s labors!

Following are excerpts from some reviews of this mega-church that I found online. Please notice that NONE OF THEM provides the gospel message, nor includes any critical evaluation of what this church really teaches:

David is an engaging speaker and preaches the word without pulling any punches. If you want to see him preach live in person, visit the South Park location. This church and all of its locations believe and preach God’s word 100% of the time. 

My comment: Without pulling any punches is a phrase that is common in the world of professing Christendom for someone who insinuates works into the gospel, thus corrupting it and creating a false gospel.

A church that teaches the true gospel of Christ, not for pretenders. So glad I found this place. Most churches today cater to the people with a feel good message of what people want to here and water the gospel down. Not here

 My comment: What Lordship “salvationists” often mean by water the gospel down is to teach the gospel in its purity. In other words, water down falsely implies that the real gospel inherently includes works for eternal life. Likewise, pretenders is often used to deride those who correctly believe that works are not necessary to receive, keep, or provide evidence of eternal life.

Great job with the kids, just watched a very entertaining play from the 3 & 4 year olds!

My comment: These children are being indoctrinated into a church that corrupts the gospel.

If you are a true Believer in Christ or really want to know your purpose in life, this is the place you need to be.

My comment: The phrase true believer cannot by found in the Bible. There are believers in the gospel and believers in false gospels. And, there are people who falsely profess belief in the gospel, often parroting the false views of their pastors. I am pretty sure that God’s purpose for my life does not include participating in the evil deeds of a doctrinally aberrant church.

I am afraid that the members and attendees of Forest Hill church can’t see the forest for the trees.

Eternal life is not received from Life Groups, service projects, pastor-authored study materials, children’s programs, music ministers, discipleship training, or other missions. Eternal life is not received by believing false gospels of works.

Eternal life is received by believing in the Lord Jesus as Savior.

If you would like to know how to have eternal life, please click here: John 3:16

82 responses to “Lordship Salvation: Not Out of The Woods

  1. Phil, I think you are right that knowing the underlying beliefs of the author would warrant caution.

  2. JohnWI, when I look up someone I usually check Amazon reviews, and the 5 star and 1 star will sometimes give insight to where they are coming from. Nothing…so I looked him up with the word Calvinism. About the 4th or 5th one there is a Robert J Morgan with a website called vertical living ministries, and he is writing on several reformed people. He is the pastor of Donelson fellowship because it says he is also the author of Red Sea Rules.

    He also has a website with just his name, which says he collaberates with David Jeremiah, Billy Graham evangelistic assoc, and links back to his blog. One of the articles on his blog is about John Calvin’s ‘mentor’. Just some more things to know. Who knows what his book is like, but he relates the Exodus to life suffering supposedly. Not sure if he brings in their 40 years of rebellion or not.

  3. Brad, agree. That’s why it is so hard for people to believe that eternal life really is a free gift to the recipient.

  4. Also Proverbs 14:12

    “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”

  5. When I think about all the false doctrines out there that reject God and His Truth, I always end up remembering Isaiah 55:8.

    “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.”

    The ways of men and women are not God’s ways. So it really is only natural for humanity to veer so far from God’s will at so many junctures, especially salvation.

  6. Hi John WI, I looked at a site on this book, and the book sounds ok. But what bothers me is the church Robt. J. Morgan is a pastor of, Donal Fellowship in Nashville, TN. (Unless I have the wrong person).. I found their “articles of faith of the Free Will Baptists” that this church believes. Reading them, they follow the LS, legalist road to salvation to a tee, “repent of your sins, turn over a new leaf” to be saved…and so on. If Morgan is a pastor of this church, then he no doubt affirms their salvation by works beliefs. I also saw that he was associated with Billy Graham ministries at one time.
    I’m not saying his book is not a good thing for a mens’ group, but, caution, I would consider the source–the person this comes from and what he believes.

  7. JohnWI, I haven’t heard of him.

  8. Is anyone familiar with the Bible Study material, “The Red Sea Rules” by Robert J. Morgan? Our church is doing a men’s bible study using this material and I am always cautious about any study using mans material.

  9. Holly, you don’t have to be a Greek scholar to know that the versions derived from the Critical Text manuscripts are in error. The best evidence in favor of versions based on the Received Text (King James, New King James, Modern English Version, Geneva Bible, World English Bible, etc.) is other scripture, particularly the surrounding verses. For example, in Luke 2:10 the angels proclaim good tidings (that is the Gospel) to all people, but the NIV version of Luke 2:14 is clearly intended to limit the scope of the Gospel. As a result, they have created a contradiction. The Calvinists who developed the NIV replaced the good will of God with one of their favorite buzzwords: “favor”. By the way, in Genesis 6:8, where it states that “Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD”, the NIV replaced the word grace with “favor”. What problem did they have with the word grace!

    in addition, Luke 2:13 points out that the angels were praising God. Their praise was intended to focus on the lovingkindness of the Lord extended to all, and not on some supposed slight of those who are “non-elect”. In Psalm 107:21 the Psalmist exclaimed: “Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!”

  10. Alan, seems a head shaker that Jeffress would go to the NIV if he didn’t like KJV translation, why not go to the concordance? I’ve seen plenty of Calvinists say something similar. Frustrating twisters of God’s Word.

    Jason – seems like the Francis Chan person may be double-minded and unstable. I think some people don’t like confrontation, so the best we can do is give them the information and keep contending earnestly for the faith once delivered. Hopefully redeeming the time wisely, using sound speech that cannot be condemned, having grace and salt seasoning our speech, etc. (Kind of paraphrasing from Eph 5:15; Col 4:5-6; Titus 2:6-9)

  11. And sometimes they block me without warning. Mary Ballard Bernstein had some interesting tweets, about Atiku’s Boko Haram recruitment activity in the USA. She liked my political tweets. We followed each other. I started some satirical tweets against lordship. My latest compared the experience of some believers at Masters College (kicking shins) with the experience of a journalist (now candidate) at the Mountain of Fire and Miracles compound in Nigeria (held hostage and abused). I also called Voice of the Martyrs “part of the alphabet soup”, referring to the political acronyms. I added, “Isaac for Prison”, referring to VOM’s Nigeria branch director, indicted for rape, acquitted by a corrupt court. I don’t know which tweet offended her, but I did not troll her. Sad. I guess she likes VOM.

  12. Jason, it’s interesting that someone would agree with you about Francis Chan’s errors, but then put Chan’s quotes on his page.

  13. Elitist, social club gospel? Even Martin Luther King hated that. No, I am not recommending King. This is just a reference point.

    I have caught Francis Chan saying that church leaders are not appointed to minister to us. But what about Luke 22:26?

    So many leaders modeling the church after boot camp. Thieme comes to mind.

    When I expose Chan, a tweeter likes the tweet. But I go to his page, and it is full of Chan’s worst. The gospel is conspicuous by its absence.

    I have also caught Chan disciples quoting heretic Hinn.

    Chan gave up his megachurch but continues with the megachurch false gospel.

    Gospel singer Dinu Zeno recommends retreating from church. So far, I have not spotted LS in his posts (at least not in English). But would that ministers never cease to mention the gospel and that they get it right.

    A certain tweeter describes his mission as: “making disciples of Jesus who make disciples that make disciples”. They make Judases.

  14. Alan, thanks for sharing this passage.

    Robert Jeffress was one of the endorsers of Greg Laurie’s unfortunate SoCal Harvest event.

  15. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord (Luke 2:10-11). Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men (Luke 2:14). Notice that the angels wanted to impart to the shepherds (who were regarded as wicked, sinful outcasts) the comfort and assurance of the gospel. This is totally contrary to the approach of those who preach the lordship salvation/commitment “gospel”. They boast about not “watering down the gospel”. Isn’t it ironic that Jesus spoke of giving us Living Water (John 4:10). They speak of not wanting to “sugar coat the gospel”, while the message proclaimed in this beloved Christmas passage is a gospel that is “sweeter than honey from the rock” (Psalm 81:16).
    You may think that no one could find fault with this beautiful passage, but alas, you would be wrong! Robert Jeffress of First Baptist Church of Dallas referred to the King James Version wording of Luke 2:14 as “an unfortunate translation”. He prefers the corrupt wording found in the NIV that takes away the good will of God toward men, and replaces it with a gospel that is more attuned to his Calvinist/lordship salvation mindset. The phrase “those on whom His favor rests” found in the NIV stimulates uncertainty rather than assurance. It presents a gospel that is not for everyone; it is an elitist, spiritual country club kind of gospel. They could not leave it alone, for it contradicts everything they stand for.

  16. Hobbs, I know the Bible tells us it’s unwise to compare ourselves to others, I believe that’s 2 Cor 10:12. But I realize one thing is that I believe He makes it simpler than we even realize. The world is hard, but His yoke is easy, His burden light. We just have to take His yoke upon us and learn. Continue in His Word so we will become disciples and be set free by His truth. To abide in Him so we can bear fruit. How easy is that really if we won’t get distracted like Martha whether good things or not. Spending time with Jesus, hearing His Word. We need to take heed to it, and apply our hearts to His wisdom. It’s just time in His Word and prayer. That’s my ‘endurance’ in my walk. I know why I’m not doing well, and it’s too many ‘other’ things, not necessarily anything bad at all, I’ve just neglected to choose the good part, the needed thing (Lk 10:38-42).

    Whatever is good in our lives, we may not be aware of. I believe it’s likely also so we are not elevated or somehow prideful. I just keep trying to do my part to cooperate in walking with Him. He’ll help us.

    Unless the Lord builds the house, They labor in vain who build it…

  17. William, I remember when my husband was my friend. He had been friends with my husband who passed away 9 years ago. He used to make jokes about hell only having Coors-light and at least most of his friends would be there. On the other hand, he didn’t believe. I remember shortly after my husband died, I was sharing with him to some degree. I had given the gospel at the funeral. And so I don’t remember how shortly after this was but he kind of snapped at me and said, I JUST DON’T BELIEVE, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO???

    It came to me instantly and I answered him strongly and boldly and told him, Faith comes by hearing the Word, You won’t hear, you won’t seek God, you don’t even check out or listen to anything that’s said or examine it for yourself. That’s why you don’t believe, not because you can’t, but because you don’t look into His Word.

    He was like a deer in the headlight, just speechless. I used the Word a lot with him and my other friends, they just didn’t know it until they asked me, ‘where did that saying come from’? And I would say, ‘It comes from the Psalms’, or ‘I got it from one of my favorites, the book of Job’, etc. I knew I didn’t have to source the truth, just to speak it because I know it comes with power. The gospel is power, His Word is power, so I figure it won’t return void. Don’t give up! I wrote my friend a letter a couple of years later when he underwent a serious surgery. The letter is on my website (dear John). Anyways, shortly thereafter he began examining the claims of the Bible and he came to believe a few months later.

    Several years later he asked if he could start seeing me, and he is now my husband.

  18. Jason, you are right – people will boast about almost anything.

  19. Even for the poor and afflicted, how much affliction you can take can become a cause of boasting. The idea that even if you lost your mind, you are saved, seems to be hard to swallow.

  20. John, yes the comparison thing is a real killer. When one is going through trials but God is apparently doing great things for another, you can’t help but wonder where you’re going wrong…
    And then you stumble on a damnable chart devised by the RCC listing the degrees by which you can ‘know’ you’ve lost your salvation. Jealousy about God’s provision for a brother or sister being one of the degrees.

    Thank God we’re saved by grace alone is all I can say.

  21. Hobbs, there is also the tendency that people have to compare themselves to others to gauge relative virtue. This leads to a lot of conflict and a whole lot of self-righteousness.

  22. Strange though, how we’re thrown out into life and forced to fight on some level to keep life and soul together, but just when we’re getting the hang of that we have to give up any notions of our own resourcefulness to get eternal life. Explains why wealth and success are such obstacles to salvation.

  23. William, you are right that many reject eternal life because they do not believe it is a gift.

    LS fits may peoples’ preconceived notion of how to have eternal life, so it is very alluring. As you pointed out, having to earn our own way is so deeply ingrained that people tragically use that mindset to override God’s word regarding how to have eternal life.

  24. John, Many in this world reject the free gift of eternal life by faith alone in Christ alone apart from our works because they see it as “too easy” and “too good to be true”.

    I remember I mentioned this before that we are all born and raised in a society that forever teaches that nothing in life is free, but that everything must be earned by our WORKS. This is only true when it comes to academic degrees, money, and possessions, but not true when it comes the free gift of eternal life.

    It’s brainwash where this mentality gets so deep seated and ingrained in many people’s minds that they get blinded by it. It’s also because of man’s innate pride where he feels that he can only attain eternal life based on being a “good boy” and “doing good”. He wants to do things his way.

  25. William, it is tragic that anyone would reject the free gift of eternal life that is available to everyone on the same terms – by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    It is so good to hear someone acknowledge that they have come to faith in Christ, especially if they seem to understand the gospel clearly.

  26. John, Yes, if only people would wake up to reality. Yesterday, my father in law’s attitude was one of nonchalant indifference to the gospel, but my mother in law was serious as me, my wife, and my son prayed with her. I asked her if she believes that Jesus is the Savior and that He offers eternal life freely to those who simply believes on Him and she said “YES”.

    My wife told her a week earlier about the reality of heaven and hell which are 2 imminent places that people on this earth go to when they die. My wife told her that if she believes on Christ and His finished work that she will be instantly saved and not go to hell. That woke her up finally after many years of trying to tell her about Jesus and she finally comes to the realization that heaven and hell are indeed real places. My mother in law is in her 80’s. Praise God!

    My mother in law even asked my father in law to believe, but he was indifferent and said “NO”. I just hope and pray that he will wake up to the reality of heaven and hell and sometimes it will take a life threatening event to wake people up.

    My wife’s uncle died of cancer on his deathbed rejecting the gospel and his son dies of the exact same disease years later. My father died rejecting the gospel despite my mother’s attempts in sharing the gospel with him. In fact, my father used to openly mock John 6:55-56.

    I can still remember as a young man decades ago that my mother’s church friends would come over for Bible study and fellowship with my mother, but my father would chase them away and yell at them and threaten to shoot them. My mother’s church friends would only come over when my father was not at home.

    It was tragic of him to be that way and then die rejecting the gospel. : (

  27. I am also like, be careful what you ask for because you might get it. I am thankful God has me where he wants me.

  28. William, you are right that Judas’ repentance did not result in eternal life.

    Judas never trusted in Jesus as his Savior and he could have done that at any time.

  29. John, Judas was more interested in $$money$$ than anything else. We all know that he woke up and “repented” knowing what he did, but he went to the wrong people to do that. Had Judas personally went to the cross where Jesus was and repented before Jesus, that would have been a different story.

    Again, of course, Calvinists will no doubt argue that Judas was “predestined” to be damned as he is referred to as the son of perdition.

  30. William, good point.

    And, then there was Judas. He was a disciple, had a relationship with Jesus, and so on, but he did not have eternal life.

  31. jasonc65, We SHOULD be Christ’s disciples, but it is not imperative for the free gift of eternal life. Many devout Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Calvinists, and Arminians from beginning to end all claim to be Christ’s disciples, but are not saved.

    The thief on the cross was not a disciple, but he just believed and was saved instantly for all eternity. Of course, Lordshippers will no doubt argue that if the thief was acquitted that he would be Christ’s disciple.

  32. Jason, I agree that Jesus doesnt require anyone to follow him in discipleship as a condition for receiving eternal life.

    He does desire that all believers continue in His word (John 8:31). But, as you said, and as William pointed out, He did not seem to want everyone to literally follow Him during his earthly ministry.

  33. This proves that Jesus doesn’t want everyone to be his disciples. When I was a kid, I always assumed that disciple was a special calling, like missionary or pastor. Then at some point the LS poison deepened to the point that I was persuaded that the calling was universal.

  34. Great article, John!

  35. William, we did an article a while back about people incorrectly conflating discipleship/works with eternal life. Please see below:


  36. The account of the demon possessed man in Mark 5:18-20 who was healed and SAVED by Jesus debunks Lordship Salvation’s false teaching that one cannot be saved unless one makes Jesus as “Lord” and “follow Him.”

    Mark 5:18-20 – 18 And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil PRAYED HIM THAT HE MIGHT BE WITH HIM.

    19 HOWBEIT JESUS SUFFERED HIM NOT, but saith unto him, GO HOME to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.

    20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

    The man who was demon possessed and healed by Jesus obviously wanted to follow Jesus as Lord as the context of verse 18 clearly indicates, BUT Jesus told him “NO”, but that he should go home and tell his family and friends how God has been gracious to him.

    This same account is recorded in Luke 8:38-39:

    38 Now the man out of whom the devils were departed BESOUGHT HIM THAT HE MIGHT BE WITH HIM, BUT JESUS SENT HIM AWAY, saying,

    39 RETURN TO THINE OWN HOUSE, and shew how great things God hath done unto thee. And he went his way, and published throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done unto him.

    From these 2 accounts, it is obvious that this healed man who is no doubt SAVED WANTED TO FOLLOW JESUS AND BE HIS DISCIPLE AND MAKE HIM LORD, BUT Jesus said “NO”, thus debunking Lordship Salvation.

    Lordship Salvation people will no doubt despise those who believe in faith alone apart from works by attacking and calling us names, “easy believism”, “cheap grace”, “intellectual assenters”, etc.

    I have encountered some Lordship Salvation heretics who went so far as saying that the demon possessed man was healed by Jesus, but not saved by Jesus. However, common sense dictates that if a person was possessed by many demons which would no doubt make the person’s life an utter living hell, but then one day the person encounters Jesus, the Son of God who has mercy on him by casting out all those demons freeing him from bondage that the person will no doubt believe in Jesus and be saved. I know I would.

  37. PhilR, You are so right. The gospel IS easy believism. The thief on the cross believed and was saved right then and there and the woman in Luke 7:50. There are currently 19 false denominations (maybe more) within mainstream Christianity perverting the gospel by denying eternal security/once saved always saved. We’re talking about 19 bogus “Jesus”.

    They all have one thing in common, that is, they will either front load or back load the gospel with works. I told my mother in law that she does not have to go to “church” as we are in the end times where the majority of all so called “churches” are in a great state of apostasy.

    I have not been to “church” in 8 years, but I have no regrets about it as they all teach works for salvation and the congregation is just full of self-righteous Pharisees.

  38. I’m happy for her believing the gospel William. The gospel is easy to believe; the hard part is discerning the false gospels that the evil one tries to trap up with using these modern day LS pharasees.

  39. William, thanks for letting us know.

    I am very happy to hear that she believes and have prayed again for both of them.

  40. John, Thank you for your prayers for my mother in law. We visited with her today and she believed the gospel and got saved today. Praise God!! She was indeed receptive to the simple gospel of John 3:16. Easy believism is the gospel.

    However, my father in law would not believe and I guess we’ll just have to give him a little bit more time.

  41. William, I have prayed for both your mother in law and father in law. I have also prayed that you would be able to answer any questions your mother in law, or father in law might have, and that you will help them to better understand the gospel message.

  42. Dear Brothers and Sisters in the faith,

    It’s been a while since I posted any comments here, but please pray for my mother in law as she has expressed that she is willing to pray with us tomorrow to receive God’s free gift of eternal life. She’s getting old as she is in her 80’s and we’re going over to see her and my father in law tomorrow. She is not terminally ill. We hope that she will not change her mind, but that she believe and be saved before she dies some day.

    Please also pray that my father in law be receptive to the simple gospel of John 3:16 as well. God made the gospel so plain and simple that a little child could believe and be eternally saved right then and there.

  43. Jason, he defnately sounds like someone to mark and avoid.

  44. I was keeping tabs on my former friend Paul Weringa to see how his doctrine was evolving. Just now, I observed fruit inspection. He claims that he knows what false prophet Owuor thinks in his heart, and says he will never have forgiveness for adding to God’s word. This is reprobation, just like Andirtson. He is subscribed to Andirtson and names his own church Faithful Word. He is starting to say that Christians who live a sinful lifestyle are not truly saved. He is definitely mark and avoid.

    I have noticed something about the way some ministers use the Word. If there is any part that you don’t accept, believe, or obey, they consign you to hell. The whole Bible is the gospel with them. But reading a book is a work. Once again, the simplicity is gone. The book is weaponized against the believer.

    I am finding out more how full of LS missionaries were. I know more about grassroots movements in Africa and little about free grace movements. This is sad.

  45. Dan, yep, that’s what these false teachers imply. It really is sad how prevalent it is.

  46. Great article. This senior pastor “go to guy” has no clue what he’s talking about and is backloading the Gospel with works. What these false preachers imply is that you “must” do good works, or your faith isn’t genuine. Hogwash! There is a big difference between “should” and “must.” And no where in the Scripture does it ever say that one “must” perform good works to obtain Salvation. James Chapter 2 is written to already saved people (they already possessed Everlasting Life) exhorting them not to be unfruitful believers. “Faith without works is dead” simply means that the believer isn’t producing any good fruit. They’re an unfruitful Christian, not a “no longer saved/wasn’t saved to begin with” person like these damnable heresies teach. Lots of these people are just plain lost and have not believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and will sadly be among the “many” in Matthew Chapter 7 trying to Justify themselves before The Lord by their “many wonderful works,” but sadly will go straight to Hell because they never believed on Christ.

  47. That’s the thing about LS teaching; it lingers under the surface with people who might otherwise appear to be “right on”. From what I’ve seen of him, Franklin Graham is definitely much less ecumenical than his father, but he’s every bit as much LS. There are many ministries that are like that; very uncompromising about things like ecumenism, RC-ism, contemplative “spirituality”, etc., but still blatantly holding to “repent of sins to be saved” LS doctrine. Berean Call is a good example. It’s very frustrating trying to get some of these “discernment” ministries to see the damage LS poison is doing to evangelicalism (and to their own ministries). They’re rightly concerned about New Age infiltration of the church, but blind to the LS false gospel that’s been there for centuries. So close, but yet so far.

  48. I am not saying he is ok. I am only saying I am surprised he didn’t teash LS in that instance.

  49. Mary, he is a mark and avoid for sure. I think they ‘vary’ their gospels so they reach more people several different ways.

  50. Mary, I think that is a good decision.

  51. Its gettting so hard out there to know who can be trusted, Franklin Graham in this video is definitely lordship and now Jason you are saying he is okay, what is one meant to think when they are walking contradictions. i think i will still mark and avoid Franklin.

  52. Yikes, went to link. Findantruth loves Andirtson.

  53. jason, I think it is double-mindedness at best. It can be kind of like the box of chocolates in “Forrest Gump.”

  54. I saw Franklin post something recently on Facebook that was consistent with grace. It included the death, burial, resurrection, second coming, and the Trinity. It was clear about hell, and the ecumenicalism of Billy was gone. The usual LS monkey business (repent of sin) was absent. It could have been a bit clearer about eternal life. It was an explanation of what it means to be an evangelical. Unfortunately, it may be more double-mindedness.

  55. Mary, I agree. He is bad news.


  57. Mary, Franklin Graham is LS “turn from sins” for eternal life.

    He also wrote the forward for one of the editions of MacArthur’s “The Gospel According to Jesus.”

  58. Hi Guys, can’t find too much on Franklin Graham, he is coming to Australia next year to do a crusade all over our country in all the different states, is he a Lordshipper like his dad Billy, is he one who should be marked and avoided.

    I think satan is holding all these various crusades that are all ecumenical for starters to capture people to make them think their saved when they may not, as they will receive a false Christ. I’m sure some people got saved all those years ago from Billy’s crusades not because of his preaching but in spite of.

    I really do believe that if someone is genuinely seeking god, god will send someone with the truth…….

  59. Jason, there are a lot of political tags being thrown around these days.

    And, I think it is fair to say that God transcends politics.

  60. I have been seeing the word “cuckservative” thrown around a lot. I find it very confusing, distracting, and disturbing. I guess that’s what I get for saying the gospel trumps politics.

  61. Luke, agree. I saw part of a special on Jim Jones last night. He appealed to people on social justice issues. It is really sad how so many people are misled by false teachers.

  62. These churches like Forest Hill focus so much on ‘social issues’ and being seen as diverse and multiracial — this is the big thing now — rather than preaching the correct Gospel.

  63. In some parts of the world, it’s always LS on top of pentecostal, prosperity, fake miracles, false prophets, cult leadership, and corruption in church and state. It’s depressing.

  64. Luke, yeah, it is fairly “standard issue” LS.

  65. I’m familiar with Forest Hills and their mixed-up gospel message is typical of every church I’ve attended in the Charlotte area. There is no one consistent on the simple salvation message.

  66. Holly, I also find it frightening who some people choose to teach them. A serious comparison of what this guy teaches would quickly reveal that it doesn’t line up with the gospel found in the Bible.

  67. Johninnc – I find it frightening the people that the masses pick to teach them. Not many are Bereans, and unwilling to have you question their favorite teachers (their anointed). But what a sad thing for them, for their loved ones, for the lost.

  68. Holly, it is not only creepy, but scary. Like I said earlier, this guy is trotted out by the local media as the standard-bearer of the Christian faith in Charlotte – almost as if he is the “Town Preacher.”

  69. Johninnc and Jason. It was ‘creepy’ as he was speaking as if he were Jesus. As I read it, I was thinking that it almost sounded like the Mess-age (new age, occult-like paraphrase) because it made no sense, or at least as truth.

  70. Jason, I agree. I think writing as if He is Jesus talking in the first person, and then adding in his false doctrine is particularly creepy.

  71. Another valuable post, johninnc.

    Thank you for your heart and hard work for this ministry.

  72. Their pastor sounds full of himself. Like a baal prophet or a pope.

  73. Holly, it’s really sad. This place has no more “transitioned from its Presbyterian roots” than the RC church has transitioned from its false doctrine.

  74. Jason, they have also donated a wing to our local YMCA, which they use primarily for their Calvin-fests, but which also includes an indoor running track.

  75. So many wolves, and so few sheep. We truly are living in the last days, where wolves are ‘true believers’ and Red Riding Hood’s grandmother isn’t a ‘pretender’.

  76. Sounds like SJWs. LS always had that effect on me.

  77. Chas, I hadn’t seen that. Thanks for pointing it out.

  78. Yi! Here’s something strange from their website under “Needs”:

    “We believe that justice and compassion should be at the forefront of how we live outside the church building. Through partnerships with great local non-profits and global organizations, we work to meet the physical and spiritual needs of at-risk, marginalized and hurting communities and people.”

    Bold, mine.

    “Justice”? “Partnerships” with “global organizations”? That’s the kind of “service” they want to involve their members in? That place is scary.

  79. Chas, yes, I have mentioned him several times in the past.

    He could have been influenced by Rick Warren, but I suspect he’s more of an “old Charlotte” Calvinist/Lordship “salvationist.”

    He played basketball for Dean Smith at UNC Chapel Hill and officiated Dean Smith’s funeral.

    Like I said in the article, he is the local Charlotte luminary for matters of faith.

  80. johninnc,

    So this is the guy/place you quoted in the previous thread. I’m glad you went into more detail about the place.

    Looking over their site it appears that they are much more concerned with “service” than with the Gospel itself. Of course, keeping people busy–or at least, keeping them feeling guilty for not being “busy” enough–is a good way to keep people in line with the pastor’s “vision”. The flavor of their outlook is a lot like Saddleback Church here in SoCal. I suspect that the senior pastor has been greatly influenced by Rick Warren.

  81. Kate, we are glad you’re here!

    And, like you, I much prefer the good news of the gospel to the fear and condemnation of LS!

  82. Katmazdobelieve

    This comment stood out to me because I heard similar things my entire youth,
    “A church that teaches the true gospel of Christ, not for pretenders. So glad I found this place. Most churches today cater to the people with a feel-good message of what people want to here and water the gospel down. Not here.”

    A feel-good message would be the good news of The Gospel of Christ.
    The only thing I ever felt when living under the yoke of law-keeping was anxiety, fear, and condemnation.

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