Lordship Salvation’s Demon Belief That Does Not Save

By Our Dear Friend, John

James 2:19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James 2:19 is one of the favorite verses that Lordship “Salvationists” quote to try to convince themselves and others that one has to do more than trust in Christ to receive eternal life. Incidentally, you will usually hear them say “demons” instead of “devils”, because that is how the NIV and other LS Bibles have translated this verse.

When you hear someone raise James 2:19 as an objection to God’s free gift of eternal life through faith in Christ, you are hearing the voice of confusion and disbelief. You are a witness to the bad fruit of the LS tree. While it is true that demons believe and tremble, it is not true that this means that simple belief in Christ is not sufficient to save a human believer. Demons are beyond redemption, so the content of their faith is irrelevant. For a more compete discussion of this topic, click the attached link:

A Lordship “Salvationist’s” Prayer To His Prodigal Son

But, besides a demon’s belief, is there a belief that doesn’t save? Is it possible for a human being to believe that Jesus died, was buried, and rose from the dead and still not have eternal life? The answer to the above questions is a resounding YES. There is a belief that doesn’t save. In fact, there are all kinds of beliefs that don’t save, but not for the reasons that Lordship “salvationists” espouse.

Lordship “salvationists” believe that the performance of works, the promise of works, or the evidence of works MUST accompany faith in Christ in order to make that faith result in eternal life. Some of the more common adages that indicate that someone might have been “bitten by the LS bug” include:

  • “There’s head faith and heart faith, and only heart faith saves.”
  • “There’s no ‘fire insurance’. You have to want to follow Christ to be saved.”
  • “A believer won’t be sinless. But, he will sin less.”
  • “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is not alone.”
  • “We’re not saved by faith plus works, but we are saved by a faith that works.”
  • “A true Christian may backslide, but he will always return to the faith.”
  • “A Christian’s behavior will change once he is saved.”
  • “It is disciples who are saved.”
  • “Believing in Christ isn’t a ‘Get out of Jail Free’ card.”
  • “He can’t be your Savior if He’s not your Lord.”

Each of the above, and other similar expressions, indicate that someone is not quite comfortable with Grace. These types of statements expose an underlying misunderstanding of, or disbelief in, the part of the Gospel that says “Christ died FOR OUR SINS.”

The Lordship “Salvationist” does not believe that Christ paid the FULL PRICE for our sins, leaving us nothing to pay. He believes that Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection were necessary, but not sufficient. He believes that he must add to Christ’s finished work with his repentance from sin, commitment, or perseverance. In other words, the Lordship “Salvationist” seems to view Jesus as Lord and Helper, not Lord and Savior.

So, there is belief that does not save. It is belief in a false gospel of Christ plus works for salvation, more commonly known as Lordship “salvation.”

Can a person believe in Christ alone and not be saved? The answer to this one needs less explanation. The answer is NO.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Eternal Life — No Strings Attached!<< Click

114 responses to “Lordship Salvation’s Demon Belief That Does Not Save

  1. I re-formatted Ron Shea’s Repentance series, you can see the book of Luke in this one.


  2. I agree that repentance means “a change of mind”, or “to rethink something and come to a different conclusion”. The proper object of repentance for the unbeliever is what I would call self-justification, or the innate tendency of the natural man to do something to cover or suppress the guilt of his sin. If you view the events which were recorded in the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2 and 3 as literal historical events, which I do (since both Jesus and Paul affirmed it), the first act of self-justification in human history is recorded in Gen. 3:7. After they ate the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve clothed themselves with sewn fig leaves to cover their physical nakedness, and by broader implication, the guilt of their sin. This same tendency to self-justification was passed down to all of their descendants as part of the sin nature which we all have inherited.

    Self-justification takes many forms, whether it is the radical Muslim who thinks that God will let him into paradise for blowing himself up and killing infidels, the Calvinist who thinks that his perseverance in faithfulness to the end will somehow “prove” that he is worthy of eternal life, or the LSer who thinks that God will give him eternal life if he pledges to turn from his sin and offers up the rest of his life in service. Since Christ has already paid the total sin debt of all people, the biggest problem facing humanity is actually not sin but self-justification, which keeps a person in unbelief and under the penalty and power of sin unless and until he repents of it (self-justification) and believes the gospel.

    For the believer who already has eternal life, the proper object of repentance is sin since it disrupts his fellowship with God and, if not repented of, may cause him to prematurely lose his physical life (Simon the sorcerer was in danger of this in Acts 8:20, 24) and will result in loss of eternal rewards at the Bema seat. Improperly making sin the object of repentance for the unbeliever reinforces self-justification in his thinking and often renders him more resistant to the gospel message and to those who preach it than he was before. I think this was what Christ was teaching the disciples in Matt. 7:6, where he says, “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and rend you”.

    In other words, training and instruction in practical righteousness (that which is holy, or “pearls”), as taught in James, 1 John and the other epistles, involves putting off the sinful deeds of the flesh nature and doing good works and is for those who have properly repented and believed the gospel. Teaching practical righteousness to unbelievers, who have not properly repented (those who are still unclean, or “dogs” and “swine”), fuels the thinking of self-justification and makes them reject teachings on the proper application of practical righteousness (“trample them under their feet”) and, particularly when institutionalized, makes them resistant and hostile to the Biblical gospel and to those who teach it (“turn and rend you”). History has repeatedly borne witness to this truth, such as during the Inquisition when many Bible-believing Christians were massacred at the hands of the Roman pontiff because they refused to submit to Rome’s system of salvation by works.

  3. I changed my mind about going to the movies. The consequence: I didn’t have to cope with the inclement weather.

  4. William,

    Yeah repentance is commonly misunderstood. I always try to remind people to look at the context to see exactly what it is people are to change their minds about and for what results. As you mention s, there are times when the result is a deliverance from earthly consequences of sin. Ron Shea does have some good material on it as John mentioned.

    From time to time is get comments on my site as well that try to argue for repentance being something more than a change of mind for salvation. Usually a total sorrowful resolve to change ones life is the idea put forward. But wow what way to confuse grace and disregard contexts. It is a result of failing to diligently compare scriptures with scriptures. Especially failing to let the more clear verses clarify and that are less clear.

    Jim Floyd

  5. William, repentance means a change of mind. There is no intrinsic object or consequence of repentance.

    When sin is the object, eternal life is never the consequence.

    When eternal life is the consequence, sin is never the object.

    Ron Shea has a nice discussion of this at the old Clear Gospel. Please find it linked below, along with a discussion of repentance in Luke 13. There are some formatting issues, so if you wish to read the material in the links, you might want to select the text and paste it into a Word document.



  6. Keith, The word “repent” has caused so much confusion within mainstream Christianity that it is utterly astounding. Many fail to realize that “repent” in regards to God’s free gift of eternal life means a “change of mind”, but “repent” in regards to what a Christian SHOULD DO after salvation is turn from sins to avoid God’s chastisement. Many also fail to realize that God brings disaster, calamity, evil, and PHYSICAL DEATH upon unsaved people as well as His saved people if they indulge in sin and wickedness. God CHANGES HIS MIND and refrains from bringing chastisement when we CHANGE OUR MIND and turn from sin. Jeremiah 18:6-10, Jonah 3:9-10, and Luke 13:1-5 explains this well. Many fail to realize that when God brings chastisement upon the saved as a wake up call, they are still eternally saved.

    1) Jeremiah 18:6-10 – 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

    8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, TURN FROM THEIR EVIL, I will REPENT OF THE EVIL that I thought to do unto them.

    9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

    10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT OF THE GOOD, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

    2) Jonah 3:9-10 – 9 Who can tell if God will TURN AND REPENT, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

    10 And God saw their works, that they TURNED FROM THEIR EVIL WAY; and God REPENTED OF THE EVIL, that he had said that he would do unto them; and HE DID IT NOT.

    3) Luke 13:1-5 – There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

    2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

    3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye REPENT, ye shall all likewise PERISH.

    4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

    5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye REPENT, ye shall all likewise PERISH.

    Of course, “repent” in the context of Luke 13:1-5 means to TURN FROM SIN tto avoid PHYSICAL DEATH.

  7. John, Ron Shea describes it quite well.

  8. That’s what it felt like to me when I was under Lordship. I discerned some obvious false teachers and fell for others. The church fathers taught it, the reformers refined it, the martyrs gave it divine authority. Classical education reinforced it. The interpretations satisfied the rationalists. The spiritual light thickened. When a bright light is turned on, everything that was white is now black. The bright star is revealed to be an abyss.

  9. Keith, reinforcement of false messages is something Ron Shea discusses in his doctrinal statement. See excerpt below:

    We believe that the more ardently and regularly a pastor or teacher holds forth any of the above perversions of the gospel of grace as a necessity for salvation, the more firmly a pre-existing grid of salvation-by-works is fabricated in the hearts and minds of the congregants, progressively shackling the lost sinner more hopelessly behind a veil of deception, making it less and less likely that any forthcoming profession of faith has meaningfully grasped the message of salvation.

  10. Unfortunately, Travis is among the multitudes within Christendom who think that “repent” means “turn from sin”. A wrong understanding of repentance prevents an unbeliever from believing, and also determines his understanding of the rest of scripture. Christ spoke of this in Matt. 6:22 and 23:

    “The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light; but if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!”

    So instead of rightly dividing the Word of Truth, those with the erroneous view of repentance use passages like James 2 and 1 John to reinforce their self- righteous thinking. Consequently, what they think is spiritual light is actually spiritual darkness that gets thicker and thicker the more they progress into their study of scripture.

  11. Jim, it’s goood to hear from you.

    I join you in praying that people, including Travis, would be delivered from this deception.

  12. Greetings all, sad to see Travis’s little display. I feel bad for him. It is one of the hardest deceptions to get out of… this idea that christian performance is automatic. John correctly pointed out that the NT need not have been written if such a thing were true and Matt 7 that many LS’ers try to use actually condemns them. Because as John mentioned, those people were pointing to their “performance” not their faith.

    Sure it is one thing to live a proper testimony for the lost world but doing so is a day by day moment by moment choice to obey. Some just flat out do not understand that the result of faith in Christ is the creation of the new man. But the new man is in competition with the old until the old man of the flesh finally is gone. So then performance is not a result of the original faith that a person was saved with but rather and act of faith in obedience to the Holy Spirit in an ongoing walk with Him. Obedience is a result of faithfulness not original faith itself.

    Part of the deception on that is the misconception that believers only have one new nature, that faith is the gift of God, and that God makes people believe (and progressively behave). Those three things are some of the biggest lies of Calvinism.

    I pray that people are delivered from the stench of it this Christmas season and experience the true grace in Christ who by the way paid it all on the cross for us. Period. Thankfully His performance mattered instead of ours.

    Jim F

  13. I wonder why I didn’t notice Martin’s double-mindedness before. When I was recovering from Armstrong, I borrowed the Kingdom of the Cults from a church library. I didn’t notice it then. Why is it so glaringly obvious to me now? lol

  14. I think I’ll be able to get by without reading any of Martin’s books.

  15. Martin actually did cover Catholicism in another book, but never LS. He viewed eternal security as a nonessential.

    On a recording on Youtube, I heard this inept comment: “for 19 centuries the church (Catholic and Protestant) taught that the antichrist will enter the temple of God in Jerusalem before the second coming of Jesus Christ, and the church will anticipate persecution of unbelievable proportion” (not exact quote).

    Amillennialism dominated for the majority of this period and taught no such thing. Seeing Martin show worse competence than Hanegraaff is hilarious.

    I disliked a slew of these recordings.

  16. jasonc65 I agree. I’m disappointed in Walter Martin’s book, “The Kingdom of the Cults” because he never covered Calvinism, Arminianism, and Roman Catholicism. His book is not that comprehensive and is missing a lot of information.

  17. It is even more tragic that cult experts like Walter Martin did not warn about him.

  18. William, thanks for letting us know.

    It is tragic that he was not only deceived, but a deceiver of so many.

  19. I heard that R.C. Sproul died 2 days ago. It’s very unfortunate and tragic that he died believing in the wrong gospel.

  20. Travis spoke in circles although I believe he thought he was clear. Clearly mistaken though. Those neat, lined thoughts will begin to choke the life out of him as he falls into any fleshly lusts and has to doubt whether or not he is ‘really saved’. The bondage of the law is a perpetual mire of quicksand, the more you struggle, the deeper you sink into it. They believe what they say, they just have a hard time believing what the Bible says and so they bend it to make it say what they believe it does… sadly.

  21. Of course there is a relationship between one’s regeneration (spiritual birth) and one’s walk (ability to sow to the Spirit). The spiritually dead can only sow to the flesh while believers can sow to either the flesh or the Spirit. The cause/effect of the walk is in sowing, growing and remaining in fellowship with God through Christ. There is more than one hammer. One is regeneration, which comes by faith alone in Christ alone based on His work, the other hammer is sanctification which requires adding to faith (2Pet 1:5-11) abiding (John 15) walking in the Spirit (Gal 5:16). Try as you might you can’t believe harder. Works don’t make you believe. You can believe more content by learning and this is what the Epistles are about; they not about questioning if God has justified us through faith alone in Christ alone.

    The effect of the hammer in justification happens before the throne of God and is instantaneous, permanent and no man can see that effect. Just as Abraham believed and was counted as righteous (no works in this justification before God) he was also justified before men (by works) when he offered up Isaac. No conflation: Two justifications. By making the only hammer to be justification Travis is seeing the cause/effect relationship in a way that belies his claim that he believes in faith alone. In typical LS fashion he has made works necessary to faith i.e. that without works there is no “real” faith and like all others he cannot quantify how many works proves “real” faith but they are necessarily necessary.

    The double mindedness of conflating justification (receiving eternal life) with sanctification (manifesting the life we were given freely) is the essence of LS and will be read into every contested passage. Stop the double think and the simplicity of the Gospel becomes clear.

  22. “There is no love in your teaching”. John, I absolutely agree with that statement.

  23. Travis, thank you for your gracious offer to leave us. Your most recent comment would have been the last that we would have allowed anyway.

    This is an oasis of grace. We welcome deceived people, who are searching for the truth. We do not welcome deceivers, such as you, who are intent on spreading lies.

    You mentioned Matthew 7 several times. I notice, when reading those addressed in Matthew 7:22, that Jesus NEVER refutes their claims of good works. Why would that be? Because these are people who looked to their own works(in whole, or on part) to justify them. They had never trusted in Christ alone, without works, to justify them. That is why Jesus says He NEVER knew them.

    The broad path that leads to destruction is preached by much of professing churchianity. That broad path is trusting in Christ plus works.

    The narrow way is trust in Christ alone.

    You said: “There is a relationship. It’s a cause and effect relationship. It’s consistent, perceptible, predictable and constant.”

    My comment: We do not refute the transformative power of Christ in the lives of believers. However, it is not automatic. Romans 12:2 makes that abundantly clear.

    If this transformation were consistent, perceptible, predictable and constant, the epistles need never to have been written.

    Travis, the one thing I have noticed that is predictable and constant is Lordship “salvationists” who try to convince people that faith in Christ does not result in eternal life, unless accompanied by some nebulous, non-quantifiable life change.

    Travis, you even hypothesized about how the thief on the cross might have lived had he been physically rescued from the cross.

    Do you now get to add to scripture? Despite all of your scriptural references, used out of context and misinterpreted through your works for salvation lens, you have demonstrated that you don’t really need scripture to make your points. If it’s not there, you’ll simply make it up!

    There is no good news in your message, Travis. It is the same warmed over Calvinist tenet of “perseverance of the saints” that is preached by millions today, and was preached by millions of your forbearers.

    I appreciate your perceived love for me, but many people who need the truth of the gospel are at risk of being misled by you. There is no love in your teaching.

    I have prayed for you Travis. If you would like to know the truth, please click the link below and read it.

    Click to access English-Display-Pkg-2014.pdf

  24. On second thought, I will have to exit the conversation as your website already answers my question:

    “The Bible does not teach that there is any evidence of salvation, other than whether one has trusted in Christ alone for eternal life.”

    This is false and we have nothing else to discuss.

    Please realize I love you, but I am concerned for you and all those influenced by your false teaching. The Bible does teach and I also believe what you claim about faith alone, grace alone, Christ alone. That saves and anyone who believes it will see eternity with God. AND the Bible does teach that salvation produces evidence (1 John 3:9) These ideas are not opposed. They exist in perfect harmony, to the glory of God for every transformed life and as an explanation for why many will be shocked on judgment day. If the profession is real, and faith is placed in Christ by grace, the believer will walk in newness of life. The thief on the cross next to Christ believed and was saved. Praise God, it is enough. For anyone. Had he been rescued from that death, his life would reflect what he believed. To claim otherwise or to claim the Bible does not address this is heretical. The Bible absolutely does address this. James 2:26

    Not all professions of faith are real, and the Bible does not need me to defend it on that point. Those described in a Matthew 7 and in Jude will lean on your position on the day of judgment and they will not be justified by their false professions.

    I leave this to your conscience and pray you’ll submit to scripture in this area so that God may be further glorified by receiving His due credit for the glorious ways he transforms those who place their faith in Christ. Examine works does not turn our eyes away from God and ontonself, but rather it honors God to give him praise for his transforming power. Praise God for every wicked way he HAS called me and HAS led me out of, and praise God for every wicked way he WILL continue to reveal to me as there are many! Psalm 139/Romans 7.

  25. Brother, you err. Jesus was not speaking to two different groups. There is nothing in the text of John 8 to support that claim. Likewise Peter says to Simon “May your silver perish with you” (those saved by grace do not perish), and “you have neither part nor lot in this matter [giving or receiving the Holy Spirit] because your heart is not right before God. Repent.”

    Simon is most certainly NOT in the fellowship of Grace – he has no part in it. Peter tells him he was “in the bond of iniquity” and no one saved by Grace is in bondage to iniquity.

    To say he was saved is to discredit the Bible as the word of God. To teach people that all professions are genuine is to contribute to the long line of very shocked false believers in Matthew 7. It it is to condemn them by false teaching.

    A detailed study of Romans 5-8 might help you believe what the Bible says about belief and lifelong battle with the flesh who, though it is DETHRONED AND DEFEATED (praise God!) still exercises influences in our unglorified bodies.

    I maintain, scripture does NOT claim that works in any way earns a person salvation. Nor does scripture claim anyone must “prove” their salvation to anyone else. The ministry of salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. It is eternally secure. And when it happens, it manifests itself, TO THE GLORY OF GOD, in a new creature. We agree on all points except the last one.

    As I first stated, those who oppose the idea that salvation and fruit/the walk/deeds/works are RELATED at all misunderstand what scripture teaches about the relationship.

    You are opposing a relationship I’m NOT claiming exists. You argue a point neither I nor scripture are making.

    If the thief example I used was interesting but not pertinent, let me try another.

    If you whack your thumb with a hammer on the first of the month, every month from now till you die. EVERY TIME you do this, every month, it WILL hurt. The hurt did not cause the hammer impact. The hurt indicates the impact took place. And the whack’s results are predictable, perceptible, consistent and constant. It WILL hurt. EVERY TIME.

    So a pointed question: Are you saying the Bible teaches there is NO relationship AT ALL between salvation and ones’s walk? Life? Deeds? Works? Please answer this with a yes or no as you do in your links. Is there any relationship or not? If you agree that there is, please explain the relationship. If not, please just say so.

    I ask this pointedly because you oppose a claim I’m not making which is why it’s tough to engage the topic.

    Let me be clear on my position: there is a relationship. It’s a cause and effect relationship. It’s consistent, perceptible, predictable and constant. Believe the Bible!

    The folly you and I BOTH oppose is that the works in ANY way contribute to or earn grace. They do not! All glory to God so that NO ONE MAY BOAST! (Eph. 2:8-9) Amen and hallelujah!

    AND YET, this is why it’s dangerous to ignore the right understanding of the relationship: not every pain I feel in my thumb means a hammer caused it! A multitude of others things can cause that pain (slamming it in a door, dropping a brick on it, having it stepped on, etc.) Do Not put your faith in the pain (result) but for goodness sakes, ask yourself if your hand even hurts! If it does not, there was never a hammer strike. It didn’t happen!

    Understand the relationship! Whacking your thumb with a hammer WILL cause pain! Every time! There is a cause, and an effect. It’s real! And the Bible often exhorts is to examine ourselves for this reason. Not because we owe it to anyone else or have to prove ourselves to others but because we can and should know where we stand with God. That matters. John! James! Jude!

    To say one is saved and yet there is NO impact on their life is antithetical to scripture and incredibly dangerous to those with false faith. This thread claims my position is dangerous to someone struggling with a period of sin. It is not dangerous to that person unless every epistle is likewise. Why on Earth would Paul write the Corinthians his warning letter and then measure their fruits (2 Cor. 7) if that was dangerous to them? It is helpful and we are called to admonish one another as long as it is called today (Hebrews 3:13) We will all struggle with sin till the day we die. (Romans 7) We will, however be conformed to the image of the son. (Romans 8:29-30) Progressively, sometimes very slowly, sometimes with long periods of failure in many areas. But if that is not happening, you should question your own salvation. Not that you can lose it if it’s real, but so that you can know it is real.

    The ministry of SALVATION and the ministry of ASSURANCE are not the same. And PRAISE GOD that our assurance DOES suffer when we are walking in a manner opposed to God. Praise God the Holy Spirit is grieved within us when we sin. Any truly saved person is SEALED. Amen! Any truly saved person will also bear fruit, abide in the vine, walk in the newness of life. It’s not a “anti-grace” position conjoined with a “but” clause. It’s a “praise God for Grace!” position conjoined by and “and” clause. Faking it does not make it real (Read Jude!!)

    Per your advice for my behoovement, Scripture teachers that saving faith, BELIEF, has an impact, and the impact is real and POWERFUL. (Eph. 1:18–19). It casts out, rather than dismisses, doubt. (John 20:27) It’s object is TRUTH (Heb. 11:1) that one RECEIVES and ACCEPTS for what it really is (2 Thes. 2:13).

    Matthew 7 WARNS that “MANY” will arrrive in eternity FULLY CONVINCED that they had a relationship with God when, in fact, the did not! They did many works in His name, and yet he will tell them “Depart from me, you evildoers, for I never knew you.”

    Please, brother, don’t tell me this is a different group from those who said to Him “Didn’t I? Didn’t I?” They are the same. They were lost. The fully thought and were convinced that they believed yet they did not. Simon the magician will be among them. They are deceived. And they will spend eternity separated from God in hell for their unbelief.

    Who are these people in Matthew 7 if not false believers?

    If we cannot agree that a relationship even exists, I will take the advice listed on your website:

    “If someone is bound and determined to persist in error, or in their associations with apostate organizations, you should know when to move on.”

  26. Travis, please see our discussion of John 8:30-32 in the link below.


    The people who believed and the people whom Jesus refers to as the children of the devil are different groups. You might be interested in an article on the concept of believing, linked below:


    It might behoove you to believe what the Bible says regarding belief.

    You will also find explanations of what Jesus meant by “fruit” explained in the first link (Matthew 7:16).

    There is an article, linked below, that will provide additional discussion:


    Regarding Simon the sorcerer, the Bible says he was a believer. To think otherwise is to discredit the Bible as the word of God.

    Your analogy about the thief is interesting, but not really pertinent.

    The person who changes his mind from not trusting in Christ for eternal life to trusting in Christ for eternal life will not necessarily turn from sinful behavior.

    If someone has to show works to prove he has eternal life, then a believer could never really have assurance of eternal life. After all, even if he has started seeing his life change, what guarantee does he have that his life will not take a turn for the worse?

    And, how much sin proves a person was never saved? How many good works prove a person is saved?

    Since perfection is required to get into Heaven, if you still sin – EVER- you couldn’t possibly make it based on the way you live your life.

    That is why we need Christ’s righteousness, which is imputed to us the moment we believe in Him as Savior.

    If I had a nickel for every time I have heard a works salvationist insist that he really believes in grace, BUT, then I would be happily retired.

  27. Is anyone concerned by John 8? Particularly verses 30-31 and the rest of the chapter? Jesus was clearly speaking to “the Jews who had believed in him” yet he pointedly tells them they are, in fact, children of the devil (44). Not just by nature but at literally at that moment. I’ve read the primary texts that spark this debate, and it seems to me that those who oppose the idea that works and true saving faith are related at all simply misunderstand the relationship. I’ve not heard anyone on the so-called “LS” side ever claims works contribute in any way to salvation but rather a truly saved person will always bear fruit. This is what Jesus taught and what he himself called all men to with the first recorded words of his ministry. Ample scriptures draw the accurate relationship between a regenerated heart and the fruit it bears. Most of the epistles even call for churches receiving them to “examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.” The whole books of James and 1 John likewise draw this relationship, and Matthew 7 and the whole book of Jude are nothing but a warning that many who think they believe actually don’t. The reason these scriptural warnings exist is to illustrate that not all “belief” is real, and you can evaluate fruit to see if salvation has actually occurred. I’ve never heard someone on the “LS” side claim works earn salvation (or that you should do good works to earn it) but rather good trees bear good fruit. I don’t understand how corroborating that fact is somehow a denunciation of grace. I also don’t understand why anyone would think you can “change your mind” about something yet not see a corresponding change in behavior. If a former thief claims to have “changed his mind” about stealing yet continues to do it, his mind has not changed. He may have to WORK at breaking the habit, but if his mind has changed, he will stop stealing. It’s a natural response. No one is claiming that the act of stopping his theft is what changes his mind. They are saying that if his mind has changed, you’ll be able to see that proven by his actions. It will happen. If it doesn’t, his mind wasn’t changed. If his mind IS changed, it’s changed by grace a mind he responds to that with obedience borne of love. How many times did Jesus say, “He who loves me keeps my commandments.” He’s not saying if you keep the commandments you’ll love him. He’s saying your love is evidenced by your obedience. Read Acts 8 and see how Peter responds to Simon who “believed” well enough outwardly to be baptized by Philip. It was a good show, but it was false. Not real. The LOVING warning of Jude is that these “intruders” need to be told the truth. They are self deceived and they are the ones spoken of in Matthew 7. It’s not ungracious or unloving to ask a truly lost person if their life indicates they really believe what they claim to believe.

  28. Jason, I agree. As the late Jack Weaver used to say (regarding false teachers): “The woods is full of ’em”

  29. Brad, as we renew our minds (Rom 12:2, Jn 17:17; Eph 5:26) may we be helped to turn from sin but it is not in order to be saved (Titus 3:4-7). It might be a ‘good work’ (Jonah 3:9-10) however, we know it is not by works of the law (Numbers 5:6-7; Gal 2:16) we can ever be justified. Thank the good Lord for that… for if so, no one would ever be saved.

  30. So many sites are bad news. So many books, too. So many great men, mystics, falsely so-called fathers, princes of preachers. Testimonies to the true good news are far and few between.

  31. Brad, that site is bad news. I agree with your assessment.

  32. I found this interesting statement about repentance on the calvinist website “gotquestions.org” that reads,

    “Many understand the term repentance (from the Greek word metanoia) to mean “turning from sin.” This is not the biblical definition of repentance. In the Bible, the word repent means “to change one’s mind.” The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions (Luke 3:8-14; Acts 3:19). Acts 26:20 declares, “I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.” The full biblical definition of repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action.”

    Notice they start off by defining repentance properly, but then start tagging works onto the definition and then they conclude with a different definition than they started with.

    I have noticed in other places when people try to make the case for biblical repentance meaning “turning from sin”, they will say something like, “the biblical context for repent means a turn from sin”.

    I wonder what it is they mean by “biblical context”? The biblical context is that we do not earn our salvation, nor can we ever deserve it by any amount of works. Turning from sin is the absolute definition of law-keeping, or working.

  33. There is a good sermon from the Revelation series by Tom Cucuzza linked below. It deals, in passing, with the false belief that good works and life change must accompany faith in Christ:


  34. If we only had the new creation/creature, then it would be that God gave us a new creation that is corrupted.

    But in Peter we see we are born again of the incorruptible seed (1 Pet 1:23), which is the only part of us that is sinless. We understand in 1 Cor 15 that our flesh is still corrupt, and until the day we die will not be incorruptible. But our new man is, this is the two natures. Which is why we need to take heed to His Word, saves us from so much error, in turn saving others from the same, if they will be willing to look into those same Scriptures with diligence.

  35. They love to tell us it’s not an “option”.

  36. Jason, if we don’t walk in the Spirit, we will be fruitless. It is a choice, which seems to escape the LS contingent.

  37. Bryan, agree completely.

  38. If we did not have the old nature, we would be sinless. Because of the old nature, it is possible to be fruitless. Because of the new nature, it is possible to be fruitful.

  39. If change of behavior was automatic, why would God stop at anything less than 100 percent? All Christians would be sinless immediately after salvation. But we all know that’s not true. Just as we had to chose to believe the Gospel, we must also chose to serve.

    Bryan R.

  40. Preston, I agree.

    Focus on change turns our eyes on ourselves and not on Jesus.

    It is not God who wants people to look to themselves and their change for evidence of eternal life.

  41. There so many examples of the potential for no change in Gods Word. Another is the parable of the Sower. Soils 2-4 are saved.
    – some lose faith (still sealed)
    – others live unfruitful lives
    – some bear fruit with patience.

    IF change were automatic, wouldnt every christian bear fruit? But they dont.

    it might be worth noting – that everyone that regularly posts here (been a while for me) is ALL FOR a believer changing….ALL FOR believers bearing fruit. In fact, there are still some things i would like to change about myself. The issue becomes not all saved people change. and “change” is not evidence of salvation as JW’s. Mormons, RC, Judaism all get their converts to “change”. It gets REALLY dangerous when one puts faith in change FOR their salvation.

  42. Vicki Frazier

    I’m posting only to correct something, that’s all. I don’t deny the two natures of the believer. The new nature and the sin nature.

  43. Think about a person who trusts Christ as their Savior, lives for Christ successfully for two years, but then falls into a persistent grievous sin for lets say, 6 months.

    Lets say that this person then goes onto a Calvinist website that tells him he needs to work in order to prove that he is saved (perseverance of the saints). He then turns from that grievous sin and starts living morally well again.

    What has gone wrong here? Well, now he is trusting in his morally sound lifestyle to be saved, so even though he is in fact truly saved, he is now living properly out of a fear of going to hell, rather than a love for Christ.

    He is now trusting in his works, he is now living a defeated life no matter how well he lives, because his motivations for living such a way are self-righteous.

  44. Vicki – one thing we don’t want to do is be wrong according to His Word. I don’t want to be. Which means I have had to unlearn over time what His Word says. No one here wants to bring you over to our thinking if it is not in alignment with His Word.

    You say you don’t believe we have two sin natures but really couldn’t elucidate why. May I suggest that sometimes we can’t because it’s something we learned or heard elsewhere, but we don’t have the Holy Spirit bringing Scripture to our remembrance? Why would we need to put off the old man if the new man is all we have?

    If you want to hear more, Pastor Cucuzza is kind and uses plenty of His Word so you can search the Scriptures to see if these things are so. Please consider listening to ‘Understanding the Two Natures’. He uses Scripture, you can stop the tape and look up context and see if it is right. In His love to you.


  45. Preston, I dropped out of a “Bible Study” a few years ago for the same reason. One of the leaders was a member of “The James Gang,” who insisted on the inevitability of behavioral change for the better in believers.

    I had a private discussion with him, in which I read him the gospel and asked if he believed it. He said that intellectual assent wasn’t enough to have eternal life, but that one must desire a relationship with Jesus in order to have eternal life.

    So, insistence on life change (backdoor LS) is often attended by ye olde “head faith/heart faith” canard.

  46. Preston, it does help.

    But, when people insist on reading scripture with their “works hats” on, they will continue to be confused by trying to insinuate works into the gospel.

  47. John,

    you too.

    Sorry to bother. But lets go to the OTHER side of “change”..

    Eph 1:13 – In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Eph 4:30 – and grieve not the Holy Spirit whereby ye are SEALED unto the day of redemption.

    2 Cor 1:22 – 22 Who hath also SEALED us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts

    Now to the ever popular 2 Tim 2:17-19 KJV

    17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

    18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and OVERTHROW THE FAITH of some.

    19 NEVER THE LESS the foundation of God standeth sure, having THIS SEAL, The Lord knoweth them that ARE HIS. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

    So here, we clearly see the some had their faith overthrown, in spite of this (never the less); they were still SEALED (or still saved).

    Where’s the change from these still saved people? What change would there be from these “sealed” people who had no more faith?? The only change here from these saved people is “bad” change? But; in spite of this, the Lord KNOWS who are His (for they were sealed upon belief in the gospel- Eph 1:13).

    NOTE – if change were automatic; why would Paul tell the already saved to depart from iniquity in verse 19….so they wouldn’t be a saved vessel of dishonor (vs 20)? IF change were automatic, he wouldn’t need to.

    Hope this helps a little too.

  48. Preston, it is great to hear from you again.

    This is a very helpful comment.

  49. Hey Guys,

    Its been a while.

    Something I posted on facebook not too long ago about this subject. Hope it helps a little.

    The Gospel: Jesus; Him crucified and “change”????

    To many, the gospel is that Christ died for their sins; rose again and that there will be change as evidence of salvation.

    I used to attend a bible study at a very nice; older couples home. I do not attend it any more. But the disagreement we had was this. They said, “Absolutley, salvation is by grace, through faith in the gospel (no works) BUT no change in the individual; no salvation. For IF there is no change; there is no Holy Spirit.”

    The number one verse they used to “support” this was 2 Cor 5:17 – Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    “See, one would change some because old things are gone, and all things are become new!!!” So THEIR gospel was:believe Christ died for our sins; rose again……plus (+)…some sort of change to prove salvation.

    I gotta tell ya. I have a BIG problem with this thinking and applying “that” interpretation to this verse.

    First, it says “old things are passed away”. Name one christian who ever stopped sinning? Did old things really pass away? If a christians stills sins (and they do); did ALL THINGS become new??
    – it literally makes no sense.

    Second i want to look at the first part of the verse…..If any man be IN CHRIST…..he is a new creature. See that???? IF one is IN CHRIST…he is a new creature.

    I am immediately drawn to the church at Corinth. Now, were these people saved???

    1 Cor 1:2,4,6.

    2 – 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that ARE sanctified in Christ.

    4 – I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is GIVEN YOU by Jesus Christ.

    6 – Even as the testimony of Christ was CONFIRMED IN YOU

    I think it reasonable to conclude that these were saved poeple. Actually its obvious.

    Now, lets take a look at what these saved people were doing.
    They were sinning all over the place. Some of their sins were
    envying, strife, and divisions (3:3). A believer has relations with his stepmother (1 Cor 5:5), there were lawsuits among the believers (1 Cor 6:7) there was fornication (1 Cor 7:2), there was drunkenness at the Lord’s Supper (1 Cor 11:21).

    So we see that these saved people where sinning badly. Paul does let them “have it” a bit BUT we are talking about the new creature in Christ. Since the 2 Cor 5:17 passage stated…If ANY man be IN CHRIST he is a new creature…….well were these saved people doing these bad things IN CHRIST????

    YUP. 1 Cor 3:3 – For ye are yet carnal, babes IN CHRIST.

    Since they were clearly IN CHRIST….. they were “NEW CREATURES”. But look at that..no change in their behavior. In fact, Paul had to write to these SAVED people telling them what they should be doing and why. (NOTE – if change is automatic, no need for Paul to write telling them why they should change their behavior–it would be automatic)

    IF you are still a bit confused, then lets take YOU as a example. When you were conceived by your parents—you became “NEW CREATURE” in the flesh. Same with God’s children. When one is born again, they are “born of God” in the Spirit. That spirit birth IS a “new creature”. – See?????
    – John 3 – what is born of flesh is flesh; what is born of Spirit it Spirit.

    So the gospel is NOT…Christ; him crucified and some change.

    The gospel is Christ and Him crucified (period)!!!!!

    That Christ (Gods only Son; GOD in the flesh) died for your sins and rose again. That when one believes this gospel, they become “born again” or “born of the Sprit” and are now…a new creature….IN CHRIST…..no matter what their behavior.

    Phil 3:3 – For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have NO CONFIDENCE in the flesh. – For salvation—no confidence in “change”.

  50. Vicki Frazier,

    I think I can help explain. You said, “The Bible says to examine yourselves whether you be in the faith.”

    But this does not means to examine your own works as proof. This means to consider upon whom you have believed. Paul was speaking there to the Corinthian believers who he had already called out for their sin.

    2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
    2Co 13:2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:
    2Co 13:3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
    2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
    2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
    2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

    They sought proof Christ speaking in Paul, but Paul turns it back on them and says test / prove yourself. How? In that same verse it says basically don’t you know that Christ is in you? (Compare with I John 5)

    The bottom line is that yes there is a change at the moment of salvation. We are born again. That is the new man is created. However the old is not fully gone because we still live in this flesh. The apostle Paul himself did struggle with sin as seen in Romans 7. When the new man is created we then have theability to walk through the new man in obedience to the Spirit of God and the Word. We still as Paul did, also have the ability to walk in the flesh. Repeatedly Paul instructs us to put off the old man and put on the new man. The flip side would be to walk in the old man and our flesh and neglect the new man and the things of the Lord. Believers can do either. The Bible also illustrates how one never is currently sinning and obeying the Spirit at the same time. We make moment by moment choices.

    What were many in Hebrews guilty of as believers? Read chapter 10 and ask yourself why would they as believers face God’s wrath in temporal earthly judgement? What were they perpetually doing that displeased Him so much?

    Or try the book of James. You can read through it an count all of the ways in which those believers were sinning. It is quite the list. And these things weren’t brought to their attention because the once in a while kinds of things.

    The believers in Corinth as well were full of problems and sins. Many of them did repent and get those things right but it wasn’t because of some mystical automatic principle that God makes believers live a changed lifestyle but that God used instruction through the Spirit and the apostle Paul.

    So yes we can say one is changed. But once you have your new nature, what will you do with it? Will you obey and build on that foundation? Or disobey and displease the Lord that bought you?

    Jim F

  51. Vicki, I am encouraged that you may continue to read the articles and comments at ExPreacherman.

    This site is a needle in the haystack, and I believe that you found it for a good reason.

  52. Posted this in the wrong place:

    Thanks for your allowances, I don’t plan to post anymore. Might visit the site but will refrain from posting. God bless.

  53. Vicki, I would encourage you to rethink what examining oneself to see if he is in the faith really means.

    See our “Pet Passages” section for our interpretation of 2 Corinthians 13:5.

    You are right that many Christians have profound changes in their behavior and transformations in their lives. We do not deny that.

    The problem is, that these changes are neither guaranteed, nor automatic in the lives of believers. If they were, then the Epistles need not to have been written.

    I would ask you to reflect on Romans 6:13 and Romans 12:2. If it were not possible for Christians to let sin reign in their lives, and if it were not possible for Christians to be conformed to the world, why were these written?

    Vicki, what is the quantification standard for life transformation? How much is enough? How could a new believer know he had eternal life before any life transformation?

    I have prayed for you. I think your insistence on life transformation to confirm whether or not someone has eternal life is a direct assault on the gospel.

    We have allowed you to register your comments and beliefs here, but categorically reject that one must show evidence of eternal life through behavioral changes.

    We will not be publishing further comments from you that espouse that view.

    Expreacherman is an oasis of grace. The desert of works is available at millions of other sites on the internet.

  54. p.s. I don’t deny the believer still has a sin nature and can and does sin. Sorry if I’m unable to explain my position in an understandable way. I’m not wanting to get into a big, pointless discussion, I’m just wanting to state my position as I see it in my present level of understanding.

  55. I feel the need or am compelled to make one more post at this site. I’m glad I came across this site and certainly do believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone…but….this seeming idea from some that becoming saved by faith in Christ doesn’t produce a change in people or their behavior is wrong imho. Paul changed when he met Christ. He went from persecuting Christians to becoming one. There’s something just a little not quite right here….at least that’s what I perceive at my present level of understanding. Paul certainly was telling people about those who would not enter the kingdom of heaven and that his listeners used to be those things but weren’t any longer. I disagree with the novel interpretation of that Scripture that I’ve heard here. To me it’s a manipulation of Scripture to get it to support your belief that these folks were still fully operating in those sins with no outward change whatsoever. If I tell you that you used to be a fireman that implies you no longer are. If I say you used to cheat on your spouse, that implies you no longer cheat on your spouse. The people were changed by knowing Christ. They didn’t continue committing adultery, fornication, thievery, or whatever on a continuing non stop basis. You can say that I’m promoting “Lordship salvation” all you want but I am not. The Bible says to examine yourselves whether you be in the faith. What’s to examine since you deny the usage of any outward evidence or what you call “fruit inspection?” I decided to believe in Jesus at a revival service? I raised my hand and signed a card? And I disagree that there isn’t a difference between mental or intellectual assent and true faith. That’s what Wilkin and his crowd promote. There most certainly is a difference and I’m sorry if you don’t know it. I know if from personal experience. Anyway, I have to go. Pray for me if you think I’m wrong but I can’t shake the feeling that something here just isn’t quite right so I guess we can pray for each other. I have to go.

  56. Donald and Evelyn Haaning

    I agree completely.Its too bad most churches preach some form of LS.LS is a cancer invading the church today.

  57. Thanking Jesus for the growth seen in the testimonies above since they were posted 2 years ago and the differences in the souls who post and learn here from one another on this blog .

    for me it sure is something and sad to see a soul struggle with a simple question “our sins paid for” ” our my sins paid for” , even have pastors stumble over that question

  58. I think that if your friend is a believer Cody, the answer is the Word, but what I’d be sure is that he understands the gospel and that we ALL are sinners as Bobbie Jo also said. So all sin brings with it death, and that is what Christ came to save us from. If you really believe that he has believed and understood, the way to help him become sanctified is through God’s truth (Jn 7:17; Eph 5:26). We need to be saved from the power of sin in our lives, all of us. So spending time in His Word is the best thing to point him to do. The Word has a way of pointing out our sin.

    Pray for your friend, don’t compromise, but don’t put the emphasis on it vs. other sins. If he insists it is not a sin, I would simply say, we have all sinned, Romans 1 is a good one to read, even being without understanding is a sin in God’s sight (along with homosexuality). It is a difficult stronghold, but keep speaking the Word if you are sure he has understood the gospel. If he says he is saved, ask him what one must do to be saved, and see if he can cover the terms of God come in the flesh, His death on the cross for our sin, His burial and resurrection (what it means – His deity – His power over sin and death). If he seems to know and believe, then move on to the sanctification part. I know someone who has deactivated his sexual life, and I hope it stays that way. And it has been through prayer, and God’s Word being spoken to Him. Praying for your friend.

  59. Cody I would simply preach the gospel to him. It seems there are actually a lot of individuals like to point to sins they feel are “worse” than others. This puts people in the defensive in a major way and causes them to shut their ears. Approach with love and understanding. Besides we are ALL sinners so let’s not focus sooooo much attention on the sin until we are sure they are saved then help them with living for God.
    Good luck!

  60. Cody, if you are not sure whether or not your friend believes the gospel, I would try to find that out. That is way more important than whether he knows every sin he commits is a sin.

    Even if homosexuals were not homosexuals, they would still be sinners in need of a Savior.

    Homosexual behavior, along with lust, fornication, etc. are all sins. See Romans 1:26-27 and 1 Corinthians 6:9.

  61. Hello, I had a quick question.
    I have a friend who is a homosexual and I have tried to share where he is wrong. Anyway he says he is saved, and I realize one can be saved and gay, but he says that being gay is not a sin. I told him otherwise. Anyway he tried to say that the bible dosent teach homosexuality as being something God opposes. Can yall help and show me some verses that would say contrary and that would expose his view of trying to justify his sin? Like I said I think he might be saved. Although I’m not sure what he believes concerning the gosple wether lordship salvation or what not. I hope he believes in salvation by grace alone through faith alone.

  62. Exactly Nathan. Jesus is LORD of ALL. But some do not seem to understnd the words ‘ALL’ or ‘EVERY MAN’ or “THE WHOLE WORLD”, etc.

    Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, He allows the demons some free reign now, and when the restrainer is taken away, there will be more freedom for them in the end, but He is still their Lord, although never will be their Saviour.

  63. Welcome Nathan

    Thanks for the reminder

  64. Nathan, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    Yes, Jesus is Lord!

  65. Thank you!! Jesus IS Lord! He is Lord whether a person acknowledges Him or not. That’s why it says that EVERY knee will bow and confess Jesus is Lord! So if you are saying Jesus is Lord now, then only the Holy Spirit can say that in this fallen world. Thank God He is Lord!! I wouldn’t want it any other way!

  66. Allie, welcome!

    Please find below an excerpt from Clear Gospel Campaign:

    In the time of Christ, the term Kurios (Lord) could variously mean “God,” “master,” or “Sir” depending on the context of usage. Within “salvation formulas” within Scripture (passages that declare, prima facie, what one must do or believe to be saved), the divinity of Jesus is repeatedly presented as an essential element of saving faith. (John 8:25-27, 8:23-24, 11:25-27, 20:31; Acts 9:20, 16:30-31; and 1st John 5:13).

    The fundamental goal of a physicist is to generate generalizations which remain true under diverse circumstances. If they can do so, they are called “laws of nature.” The fundamental goal of the theologian is to generate generalizations which are consistent across a spectrum of teachings within Scripture. If they stand up to that test, the are called “doctrines.”

    The fact that the divinity of Jesus is explicitly identified as an element of saving faith throughout Scripture should inform a theologian as to a logical interpretation of the term “Lord” in conjunction with eternal salvation. And the existence of over 160 verses of Scripture that declare salvation is by faith alone, and countless verses that further declare that salvation is not by the works of the law, should further inform even the most callow theologian that the call to obedience is expressly not a demand placed on man in exchange for eternal life. To interpret the word “Kurios” (Lord) as a call to obedience in exchange for the promise of eternal life is therefore to utterly fail as a theologian! To The use of the term Kurios in conjunction with man’s salvation is plainly a call to man to honor Christ as his Creator.

  67. Allie, I remember wondering what people were trying to say back before I knew what their definition of “accepting Him as Lord and Savior” meant. Of course He is my Lord and my Savior. He has many titles, and LORD, one title means, God, the Messiah. (kyrios)

    Correct me here somebody if I am wrong, but some try to go deeper, like the King of Lordship Salvation, John MacArthur. He goes to the root word, then to the root word etymology and comes up with kuros. He then says the opposite of supreme, or Master is slave. Again, He is our Lord and Master, but their definition means that IF He REALLY is our Lord and Master, we will have made Him “Lord of all” (sort of like Satan telling Jesus, go ahead you can have all these kingdoms).

    Jesus is who the Word says He is, and I believe it. Hope that helped a little bit.

  68. Allie,

    Thanks for visiting and your question.

    Yes, Jesus Christ IS the Lord God Almighty and one must understand that and believe it in order to trust Him as Savior. We believe Jesus IS the Lord.

    Jesus is The Son of God, The Messiah, The Christ, The Savior, The Word and many more descriptions of His Person.

    Jesus is the Lord by His own words after Satan tried to tempt Him:

    Matthew 4:7
    ” Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.”

    The problem with Lordship “salvation” (LS) is that the proponents, followers and leaders of the LS movement attach “following Jesus by their works” or active discipleship as a requirement for being saved or staying saved, neither of which is Biblical. Such a teaching is totally contrary to the Biblical teaching of Grace. One verse, among many, clearly teaches that:

    Romans 11:6
    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”

    After a person has trusted Christ as Savior, our fellowship with Him and other believers is dependent upon our obedience to the Lord Jesus through His Scriptures.

    Please study our Statement of Faith above or at this link. It will be helpful for you to understand and not be confused:

    Allie, we pray this will be helpful to you as you study God’s Word in Light of His Grace.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  69. Welcome Allie. Thanks for your question.

    Yes, Jesus is Lord God of Creation, Redemption, the Universe, the second person of the Trinity. We don’t make him Lord. He IS Lord. He is Lord of all, in spite of any puny declaration that any individual may or may not choose to make.

  70. So now, I’m confused, is Jesus Lord or not?

  71. I never have seen the show, but have seen them advertised around, but it’s good to know as so many laud their praises, I suspected something was up.

  72. Curtis,

    Duck Dynasty is presenting a false gospel of works that leads to hell, you are correct. They are ‘church of Christ’, which is not a Christian group (despite their name), because they say you must be water baptized and do commitment works as part of the Gospel, and they say you can lose salvation. They are false teachers and another ecumenical bridge to Rome.

  73. Curtis, you said: “..just because it is popular don’t make it right”

    My comment: The more popular it is, the less likely it is to be right. Matthew 7:14: “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

  74. Duck Dynasty is the most popular show going right now. Good down home wholesome TV show. with a twisted Gospel message , Yes even quoting 1 cor 15:1-4 , That Jesus died was buried and rose again for our sins . now after saying that if Mr Robertson would simply stop there but no he goes on to add “Repent of Sins” “make Jesus Lord of your life ” and “water baptism” then you are saved . If you go to White’s ferry Road Church website and listen to 9-1-2013 Mr Robertson gives the Galatians 1:6 Another gospel message at the end at 1 hour time stamp . I trust I am not judging this man’s soul , but I am judging the message presented and It is not THE Gospel it is A gospel and just because it is popular don’t make it right
    Curtis M

  75. Thank you, Jack and Bruce, for the kind words. And I, too, enjoyed reading your testimonies, Jim and Holly. (Sorry for the extraneous stuff at the top of mine. Oops!). Blessings to you all!

  76. Really enjoyed reading your sharing here Jim, as well as Kims and others, what a blessing. May you all have a wonderful week in Him.

  77. Preston,

    I can say a few things about my own testimony that may help. I was saved at a young age – about 5. I trusted Jesus Christ as Savior because I knew that I had sinned and I knew who He was and that He died on the cross for my sins. My mother shared with me how He is Risen and that I could believe in Him to save me.

    Over the years I kept coming back to the scripture that I had learned. Growing up in church there were many things offered that were designed to encourage children to memorize scripture like at VBS or Awana clubs. One of the first verses that we learned was John 3:16. Years later that would pay off for me. A preacher came to our church one time just after I was out of Bible college and tried to promote Calvinism. There were many at the Christian college that I attended that were Calvinists but I did not really know much about it having not been in a church where the pastor was pushing it. Anyway, I looked through the 5 points of Calvinism as outlined by the material that that guy was promoting and I rejected it right away because I knew that the points were intertwined and that the middle point (Limited atonement) was obviously false based on John 3:16. Therefore the rest were off at least a bit. I only came find out later exactly how far off.

    About 7 to 8 years later I was helping a friend at a church plant and the friend started going in a Lordship Salvation trajectory. At one point he recommended that book The Gospel According to Jesus to me and I began reading. I only got through about the first ten pages and had marked the book already with so many red flags that I decided that my friend was on a path that I was not on. That discovery along with having to deal with competing gospels, LS vs free grace. caused me to seek answers. I first found the blog In Defense of the Gospel then this blog Expreacherman. Together they motivated me by showing me the need to stand fast for the faith because the gospel is being taken away from us in most of our churches. It is being subtly replaced with a works oriented gospel that save no one. This all prompted me to start my own blog to be another voice in the wilderness so to speak.

    Those you witness to will have trouble accepting the truth usually because their salvation in their minds is hinging on deception and is many times accompanied by an experience. Point them to plain statements in scripture that clear bring forth the truth of the free gift of salvation. The Spirit can do the convincing and it will often take time.

  78. Thank you, Kim, for your most encouraging letter!



  79. Thank You for your Testimonies , They made my day

  80. I didn’t begin in Lordship salvation, but I began to first hear the teaching at my Christian High School from some who felt you could either lose your salvation or you weren’t a Christian based on certain behavior. I remember back then, being thought of as a “bad girl” although I was actually very innocent. I did argue against these two teacher’s daughters and I suspect that was part of the issue. Both years it got me non-invited back unless I had a ‘conference’ with my parents. I wasn’t spiritually mature enough to combat the errors with His Word, I just knew it was wrong. I left to finish high school my third year in a public school.

    This condemnation continued in my later teens in a Charismatic church (yes both Arminians and Calvinists teach it). Funny, the hyper-religious there probably had the most immoral hidden lives, eventually much of it came to light. The pastor’s wife left him multiple times evidently for affairs until she finally divorced him I heard later. (I had not stayed there long)

    My ex-husband of many years ago, started to listen to Jimmy Swaggart, and I could not stand to stay in the room as this pastor bragged on his lips never touching alcohol and his eyes never having seen a movie, or he cried what seemed to be crocodile tears and preached on “repentance”. Eventually my ex-husband abandoned me and our 4 year old son, moved in with his two-year affair and married her. I do not want you to think I did not forgive either of them, she is gone now, died several years back and I certainly did and do. Anyways, that superiority continued in their relationship as they seemed to condemn me when they spoke to my son.

    I spiraled for quite some years as I ‘tried’ to do what was right, and seemed to do worse all the time. The church people made me uncomfortable and I stopped going to any church after awhile. Since I didn’t think I could go to Him, because of my performance (or lack thereof), It made me hide from God. I couldn’t confess my sins, for now I was convinced that even though He was faithful, it was that I was not sincere, or sincere enough… for surely if I was, I wouldn’t keep repeating my sins. I was in a terrible place. Talk about dust on a Bible…

    I could do nothing anymore except finally just say “Help me Lord” and I told Him if He would, with His help I would try to read His Word more faithfully (I didn’t set parameters or times, I was afraid I would fail). I told Him if He would help me, I would try to pray for more things. I had to even ask Him, to please help me WANT to WANT to do the right things, as my desires I knew were not good.

    And I read through John and Romans again, and again, it hit me each time, something else about His grace, God’s grace, the FREE gift. It took a long time to scrape out the barnacles of false doctrine, that had grown inside of me and often I was afraid I was wrong in my thinking. But His Word continued to assure me, it was just preachers and authors who didn’t.

    I didn’t seem to get much better very quickly, but you know… I begin to feel better. Closer to Him, comforted by Him, shown how to do things a little better, given some Christian friends, directed to one Bible study, then another. It seemed like I moved slower than a snail in growth, but I believe the Lord had a lot to fix and He is a gentle and lowly at heart, that is for sure. But in my disappointment at my growth I believe He did show me, that He was doing the work, and a better way than I had tried to do it and failed. I was learning how to lean on Him, how to trust in Him and not myself.

    I completely believe that Lordship doctrine is the most pervasive evil of professing “Christianity” today and is alive and well in so many churches, the supposed emergent churches, the Pentecostal, Baptist, SDA, Calvinist, and even Word of Faith and Signs and Wonders churches. It is a Roman Catholic teaching that stayed with “protestantism”. It is a false gospel that keeps people from knowing the Lord, or that Satan uses to render believers ineffective in continual self-condemnation. It also spoils the harvest as the seed we plant is infected with the ‘turn/repent from sin’ works message, or
    the seed has died with the Lord, Lordship message of mans works.

    There is only one way we live, and it is by His grace, and if we try to live by our performance/works, it is no longer grace. It just does not work, because it is not of God, but of man, it is not the Father’s will, but theirs.

    I cannot believe the slimy tentacles of this doctrine, as I watch it entwine itself around people’s minds so they are blinded from ‘hearing’ His Word even as they speak other Scriptures out of context to prove their own false doctrine. It’s terribly sad, we can pray, and use the Word rightly divided, and speak with sound speech, and grace and salt seasoning our speech for the non-believer. And when they curse us, we can bless them and pray they will be set free from the bondage of Hagar *or worse, Satan) that they do not realize they are under.

    And some will be set free, and maybe later some will turn, maybe not even remembering something you have shared with them, but it will be part of the watering. God bless you all, sure appreciated your testimonies.

  81. Kim,

    We thank the Lord for you and that encouraging, clear testimony. We pray that the Gospel of God’s Grace will reach many more folks through ExP. Ours is a ministry of love for our Savior and concern for the lost and confused.

    We are happy to have you here.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  82. Sent from my iPhone

    Begin forwarded message:

    From: Kim Seaman
    Date: September 9, 2013, 2:10:41 PM CDT

    In my case, my husband and I began to experience very strong and condemning fruit inspection by devoted LSers in our family. Being the victim of such opened my eyes to the problems of the LS mindset, which we ourselves had mildly held to, also. Simultaneously I began to find Calvinism, which we had also held to, impossible to reconcile with what I knew about God’s love. I began to pray for wisdom and understanding and asked God to show me His Truth, to allow me to see things, salvation, the world, people, etc, as He sees all of those. He answered that prayer by bringing me to this website. So, it was all the things that Jack, Bruce and John specifically said that showed me the Truth of Free Grace. I recognized it as the Truth as soon as I read it because God had been preparing me for it. My husband and I have had almost no success talking to others, either. But we continue to try, praying in advance that God would open their ears. There is strong devotion on the part of some we talk to, to a works based system because of their family members who are in that system, especially some who have passed on. There’s also a long history of great sacrifice that has brought much notoriety and self-satisfaction to some of these folks. I suspect that it is hard for them to swallow that those who have not worked will enjoy Heaven with God along side them. I currently can’t imagine them accepting that their works for salvation have been worthless. For me, I was very clear on the fact that my only hope was the shed blood of Christ for my sins. I was fortunate, I suppose, to have struggles that made it oh so clear to me that I could bring nothing to the table in the salvation transaction agreement. If God’s Grace is not free, I have no hope! Therefore I am so very thankful for the ministry of this wonderful website. Thank you Jack, Bruce, and John! God bless you richly and always.

  83. I am responsible for my own salvation FIRST to work it out, I would be careful trying to convert someone into your salvation. To defend THE Gospel proclaim The Gospel AS God Holy Spirit grants you opportunity to share. For me it’s sharing my testimony. sometimes a word spoken at opportune time, God is not a system and even grace can turn into another system of thought. It’s not about words, BUT the person of Christ Jesus. Now I do not care who walks through a church assembly doors, BUT I will not sit under preaching or teaching of someone who does not understand a simple word “repent”. At this point now I am real sharp in my discernment and simply get up and walk out when a teacher or preacher starts trying to indoctrinate me. Please don’t frustrate yourself, allow God to lead you. Guard yourself in the Love of God.

  84. Preston, don’t get too discouraged when you seem to be “failing” to change any minds when it comes to helping others know the true gospel and to understand and believe true doctrine. I just listened to a sermon by Tom Cucuzza from earlier this summer about the parable of the soil (usually referred to as the “parable of the SOWER”). In it he makes the salient point that so long as we’re presenting the gospel clearly it’s not a failure on the Christian’s part [to not] win souls. The person who hears the truth still has to be willing to hear it, accept it, and let it change their mind.

    As far as Bruce’s suggestion that perhaps hearing how others broke free from the bondage of LS, I don’t think I can add much more than the point John just made, but I too simply got tired of wondering if I was saved. I’m not sure when it happened, but I think some time around late 2002 or early 2003 is when I first started confiding in fellow believers about my doubts. (I got saved in 1992.) The fact that these folks never seemed able to point me to the truth and deliver me from my confusion is beside the point, though I’m tempted to go off on that tangent. I mention that only to show how epidemic the scourge of LS is in America, especially here in the “Bible Belt” which, (and again I think it was John) who more aptly called it the “Lordship Salvation Belt.” (I live in the mid South.)

    Anyway, I finally couldn’t take it any more and my research into the issue of understanding the gospel and the eternal security of the believer, and all the issues pertaining to that lead me to realize one side was right and the other was wrong. That was the beginning of the end of my being shackled to the confusion, frustration (and ultimately despair) brought about by my believing false doctrine. I stumbled upon some blogs here and there (the names of which I no longer remember) that taught about eternal security. But I also ran into a lot of stuff on YouTube that in retrospect was LS and taught false doctrine, specifically Paul Washer and Francis Chan. But the granddaddy of them all (for me anyway) was Ray Comfort. I found a blog that talked about how the gospel Ray teaches is a false one, and that got me to thinking. A number of weeks or months later I found myself looking for that blog again but instead stumbled upon this blog because Jack had posted about how a once trusted ministry was now promoting Ray Comfort.

    It wasn’t till I discovered the Expreacherman.com blog that I really began to be delivered. It wasn’t just the posts, but the encouraging comments from many people here. That and checking out Tom Cucuzza’s work as well as Ron Shea’s Clear Gospel Campaign.

    I hope this hadn’t all been unduly long winded . . .

  85. The short answer August 9 th 2010 I had a road to Damascus type experience , The Calvinistic LS road I was on took me to a very dark place and God showed up and knocked me off my high horse and gave me a talking to one on one. Nope I don’t have no divine revelations for you and you don’t want to go down the road I was on. I am thankful that I did find other like minded souls on this Journey for a long time I thought i was the only one who saw this. It was God all along only letting me see a little at a time, how deep the error of my way was, and what I am coming out of. I do still haunt my old chains of familiar doctrinal bondage but the uneasy freedom in Christ is beyond words, After all those Years i am truly free and know I am Loved with an everlasting Love .


  86. Hello Friends , Neighbor, acquaintance
    I hope this letter finds you and your family well.
    Religions and people make eternal life and Heaven a real task, something for which we must work and toil. I myself played a part in that and I am sorry and ask for your forgiveness. I feel it necessary for me to try in some way to correct.
    For many years as a believer in Christ I practiced a form of christian legalism called lordship salvation and didn’t even know it and became self righteous. lordship salvation says’ you need to demonstrate evidence of salvation or you’re not saved. August 9th 2010 my world came crashing down as I found this out the hard way and then went through a time of deep depression. About a year later Fall 2011 I witnessed a church assembly that I attended for many years prior split right in two bitterly over this teaching. I ended up in hospital over it. I no longer attend that assembly on either side and have been at home learning how to think for myself In Christ alone and through it all Amazing Grace found me this letter to you is the result of that and I hope you find it helpful.
    The gospel means good news and the good news is it is absolutely free, you can not earn a free gift and or be required to show some kind of evidence, remorse or turn from your way’s to receive this free gift of freedom neither do you have to walk an aisle of a church, give money, raise your hand, make a public confession, you can trust Christ were you are as you are right now no matter what. How? by Believing (trusting, relying, depending) that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: that is The Gospel 1 Cor. 15:1-4.
    I would like you to Know God is Love and not only does God love you He likes you and longs for you to recognize that He is the one who sticks to you closer to you than a Brother. All of creation was created BUT God Formed us that we would respond to His Love toward us demonstrated in Christ Jesus Rom. 5:8.
    If you are currently attending a church assembly every leader should be held accountable to deliver to you a very simple and clear gospel message. However you really need to know it for yourself, ask God to show you and He will. Ask for, seek for a firm grip on grace not doctrines of grace or doctrines of men. Jesus calls people to follow him, but he does not indoctrinate any of them. The freedom to seek our own understanding, so when we have it, we will know it really is what we believe and not just what others have told us we must blindly believe.
    A true follower of Jesus is a servant to all and is not a seeker of position or power over others in a church assembly. Jesus is the only true Head of His Body and the only Leader we should be following in this life and in The church.
    The salvation error starts with a very simple word “repent” the bible definition of repent is to change mind.
    Webster dictionary defines repent as “turn from sin.” This is were the rub and confusion is who is right?
    You can repent “turn from sin” and never believe the gospel but you can not believe the gospel with out repenting “changing your mind ” that Jesus paid for our sins, Rom. 5:8 also John 19:30 Jesus said “It is finished” from the cross. How you or your assembly views the word “repent” determines if you are living under Law or Grace. Lordship salvation is very powerful error and it breaks my heart for me to see leaders of churches with all kinds of degrees after their names and or can quote bible chapter and verse and yet not understand a simple word repent. Yet I know I was deceived by it as well.
    Enclosed gospel booklet I hope you will find helpful as it did for me. It took the gentleman 5 years to put together amazing what it takes to uncomplicated a simple salvation message.

    If you have any coments or questions please email CRM5096@gmail.com

    Curtis Ray Marburger

    freegraceallience.com why we teach Grace

    “The subtle – or not-so-subtle – problem with any kind of performance based “Christianity” is that it is counterproductive. Instead of producing joy or producing “abundant” life, it produces guilt or unreasonable introspection. Instead of producing power for living, it knocks us down. Instead of producing hope, it produces despair. It doesn’t produce freedom, it produces bondage.I know not everyone under this type of teaching ends up in the dumps. But it is far too common.
    Don’t misunderstand; grace does not take sin lightly. It realizes the consequences of sin might be severe, but that sin does not mean I have lost my salvation or that I never “really” had it. Grace doesn’t minimize sin, it maximizes God’s love. Grace realizes that God loves us, when we sin and when we don’t. It is not an “excuse” for sin, but it helps us deal with sin the right way.When we live under the grace of God, we experience freedom and life unlike anything else. Live it, teach it, and help others understand it.”

  87. Curtis, I just got tired of not knowing if I was saved. I finally read a couple of gospel presentations that didn’t include anything about repenting from my sins, or committing my life to Christ. I kept asking myself: “Is that it? Where is the rest of it?” It finally dawned on me that there wasn’t any “rest of it.” It was then that I realized that salvation was God’s gift, not a trade – and trusted in Christ alone.

    It is very difficult for people to realize that something to which they have devoted much time, talent, and treasure may be based on lies – particularly if they have taught the lies to their children, have departed loved ones who taught the LS lies, etc. It is also scary to know that the overwhelming majority of churches, ministries, books, songs, and maybe even people that go by the name of “Christian” are part of the false religion of works for salvation.

    Clear Gospel Campaign puts it this way, in reference to the false gospel of water baptismal regeneration. But, it can be extended to any false gospel of works, including LS:

    “Every man must face this controversy honestly, without an agenda of defending a cherished doctrine of salvation-by-works in which they have already invested their tithe, their time, their intellectual labor, their emotion, or which they have believed from their youth. For if a man is unwilling to do so, and the teaching of grace is indeed the message of Scripture, they will stand self condemned before the great white throne on judgment day.”

  88. Thanks for posting Preston. I believe that Curtis is one of our regular readers so he should see your comments. Also, others have told us of how they have broken free from the grips of LS. Perhaps some of them could share their testimonies as well.

  89. Good morning,
    Can someone get this to Curtis please?

    Curtis, I debate/discuss the bible all the time with LS’ers. I have even had pastors stop talking to me (they can’t answer my questions so they get a little frustrated and stop emailing). Although the word of God always wins the discussion, I feel like I have had little results in changing a mind.

    What caused you to change your mind? Was there something specific that was said to you? I am curious because sometimes I get discouraged. My discussions seem to produce nothing (although I can’t say that they didn’t – it just seems that way).

    Thanks Curtis,


  90. Reblogged this on Redeemingmoments and commented:
    Both Pentecostals and Calvinists and some in-between teach this Lordship salvation doctrine. Including WOF heretics…

  91. Curtis, funny, my fear and trembling has changed the more I have come to understand His grace and simplicity too. I want others to know Him, and so I know how important it is to study with His approval and to rightly divide His Word of truth…

  92. Nothing so Impressive as Simplicity , The simplicity That is In Christ .
    as a X Pharisee recovering In Grace , I have a fear for the word of God i have not known. I find it amazing how I used the above phrases around my cliques and even used James 2:19 , in front of the whole congregation in testimony. Honestly I never knew i was practicing LS. Amazing how these statements and twist’s on scripture find a soul.

  93. Sam what I think many people misunderstand now, is that the sin issue was taken care of on the cross when Christ said it is finished. That is it, done and over, the sin that separated humanity from God was taken away. Now the only thing that keeps a person from God is whether they believe or not. When a person is judged as a believer or unbeliever they are judged not to decide do they go to heaven or hell but for a believer rewards or loss of rewards and for the unbeliever the level of degree of their place in the lake of fire.

  94. Kenneth, I like the KJV, but I know that it’s not good enough for most of the LS folks.

  95. Fryingpan, I am saddened that you had to move on, but overjoyed that you had the courage and wisdom to do so.

  96. Kenneth, speaking just for myself I enjoy reading about the Bible translation versions info. For many years I just thought I’d was “fine” if I avoided Eugene Peterson’s THE MESSAGE and The Living Bible or whatever. Okay, I’ll move on if this is off topic.

  97. John, the same pastor who fed me that “heart faith vs head faith” nonsense in 2006 also drew the line in the sand with the whole, “Well they can’t be saved if they’re not prepared to repent of their homosexual lifestyle.” That 2nd declaration came almost 7 years later, after about my 4th attempt to explain what Lordship “Salvation” is to him in a series of monthly meetings we had. I knew at that point, in spite of the progress I made, it was time to move on. Unfortunately their church web site is in error over “repentance” as it can possibly be. I thought maybe they’d change a little for the better, but apparently not.

  98. Kenneth Groenewald

    Jon I liked your quote “because that is how the NIV and other LS Bibles have translated this verse.”I’m glad you see the hand of Satan in the multiple version$ of so called Bible$ flooding our market$ today.I call them Vatican Bibles because THEY are behind the “New Versions”. One can look on the Internet as there are vast resources available concerning this matter.
    However, I will stop here as I know that this is a discussion about Lordship Salvation. Let us be like the Bereans.


  99. Holly,

    I am constantly amazed at how many LSers find no Truth in some of the most simple and easily understood passages in Scripture.

    But I must admit I learned by rote, John 3:16 at age 7 (in a Presbyterian church). Did not understand it; no one explained it. At 16 I became an atheist. At age 35, 28 years later, I finally understood the verse, as well as many more when the Gospel simplicity was explained in context by the man who led me to Jesus Christ.

    So I pray for patience as we contend for the Faith once delivered to the Saints. The Gospel of God’s Grace salvation, by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ ALONE!

    In Jesus Christ eternally and thankfully, Jack

  100. I agree John ; Romans 5;10 says we are saved by his life Thank God for Grace it really is amazing

  101. Sam, you are right. And, if a gay or lesbian can’t be saved without changing their lifestyle, then no one else can be either.

    So, if someone thinks that a person has to turn from one sin, or another, in order to be saved, and then honestly assesses his own life, he would have to conclude that he hasn’t turned from all of his sin either. This realization should soon bring him to the point of realizing that he is trusting in himself, not Christ.

    This is my story. And about three years ago, I realized that eternal life was the gift of God, not a trade for my promise of good behavior or commitment. And I accepted Christ as my Savior.

  102. to D Taylor ;As to the statement Ever try asking a lordship person: can a smoker or alcoholic be saved. Try asking if a gay or lesbian can be saved if their a believer. I don’t think to many would agree they could be saved if they didn’t change their lifestyle.

  103. Holly, the gentleman that shared vehemently that John 3:16 and 1 Cor. 15 did not contain the whole gospel forgot to mention the entire book of John.

  104. Kenneth,

    Thanks, your testimony encourages us!! We are thrilled every time we see someone understand the reality of God’s Grace!!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  105. Jim, agree. The “faith as the gift of God” lie of Calvinism leads to the works salvation of LS. That’s why groups such as the Southern Baptist Convention are home to people of both stripes.

  106. Tonight Jack on a thread, a gentleman shared vehemently that John 3:16 and 1 Cor 15 did not contain the whole gospel, for it was missing repentance. And of course his definition of repentance was turning from sin in general.

    It’s my prayer that others will see and repent of their dead works in being any help towards their salvation 🙂

  107. John,

    Also one of the tricky lies of the devil is that God supposedly makes people be regenerated, “repent of their sin”, have saving faith, persevere to the end etc all the while they are actually trying to be their own savior. If you point out the fact that they are working for salvation they think you are nuts because they think the “grace” of God means He will make people be saved.

  108. d taylor, I agree with your assessment. Let’s pray that the Holy Spirit would cause those trusting in their works to realize that they are not trustworthy as their own saviors.

  109. Thanks John, I’ve heard many of those saying in churches over the and some of them still male me cringe remembering the Spirit squelching damage that they evoke.

    These stand out to me because they are two of the worst in that they are very deceptive.

    “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is not alone.”
    “We’re not saved by faith plus works, but we are saved by a faith that works.”

    Jim F

  110. FryingPan, you bring up some great points. There is no alternative. And, we should pray for people who believe the Gospel to stand strong, and for everyone else to understand the Gospel and believe!

  111. Ever try asking a lordship person: can a smoker or alcoholic be saved. You will really get the run around with that question. If they are truthful to what they believe they will say, no not until they repent of their smoking or alcoholism. And if that is their answer they just can not deny that then they are teaching a works salvation. I am sure they, will very rarely admit they are teaching a works salvation if that is the case.

  112. Thanks, John.

    In spite of my past struggles to free my mind from the confusing heresy of LS (in my case is was only confusing–for others tragically, it is also deadly) I was at least able to wrap my brain around this idea: What alternative do those who reject “mere” belief alone suggest? There can be no alternative. You either accept the gift of salvation by faith or you don’t. Anything beyond hearing the gospel and believing it is a form of works salvation. Pray that those of us who know that will never forget it. Pray for the rest to understand it and believe it.

  113. Kenneth Groenewald

    Jack, you know I’ve been saved for just over 30 years. But for the first time only about a year ago by coming across this website did I pick up something untoward about us needing to repent-from our sins to be saved as being a work. I never thought it was works or a work. I just thought of it as “obedience”. So thank you so much Lord for this website.

    All my love to all.

    Kenneth. G.