While searching for something else, I happened upon a web site, “Her Church” an Evangelical Lutheran church in San Francisco. (ELCA) “Ebenezer Lutheran Church.”
Often we Bible believing Christians don’t fully realize the degradation that is taking place in American mainline churches.
Quoting their blasphemy:
- They do not worship the Savior, Jesus Christ but their own invention, “Goddess-Sophia.” Their church, “the Mother of Us All..“
- They hold a “mass” for their Goddess-Sophia.
- They recommend their members buy and use a “Goddess Rosary.”
- They recommend and practice Kundalini Yoga (sexual energy) — Quote: “Kundalini Yoga is an ancient practice that utilizes physical postures …. and meditation to balance the energies of the body, focus the mind and awaken the Kundalini energy that lies coiled, like a wise, sleeping serpent, deep within us.” Their teacher proclaims, “Through this practice, I experience the Goddess within myself …”
- They are overtly feminist in teaching. Quote: “Our Christian/Lutheran feminist prayers and liturgy reach back into the storehouse of tradition to bring forth names as Mother, Shaddai, Sophia, Womb, Midwife, Shekinah, She Who Is. They do so out of renewed insights into the nature of the Gospel empowered by the risen Christ-Sophia.”
- They see no problem with homosexuals as participating members of their church. Quote: “ [1] that people of all sexual orientations share with all others the worth that comes from being unique individuals created by God/dess; [2] that GLBT people are welcome within the membership of this congregation (organization or synod;” — and they vow to work to: “chang[e] policies that deny full acceptance and human dignity to all peoples especially GLBT persons” [in total violation of God’s Word.]
- Their guiding principle is to proclaim a gospel “empowered by the risen Christ-Sophia.“
I always hesitate to leave links above to blasphemy — but feared you would not believe this wholly blasphemous acceptance of lies by a church in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.
So now to cleanse one’s mind from this garbage, we recommend the Truth:
Eternal Life Guaranteed by Our Savior, Jesus Christ. << Click
Notes From A Retired Preacher 
To all:
I have just posted a new article which might interest you:
Questions from the Mailbag on Grace vs. Lordship Salvation (Part II)
https://expreacherman.com/2014/01/09/questions-from-the-mailbag-on-grace-vs-lordship-salvation-part-ii/
Yes exactly and well put. Just as I explained as when I was saved years ago….. I did not do much of anything even though I should have but was still 100% saved thanks to Grace through Faith. Later as I decided to get closer to God the Holy Spirit made things in my heart work a little different and I began to want to do things pleasing to God. Not “works” at all but just a part of being saved and receiving the Holy Spirit. Some people tend to call that “good works” and throw others off in their terminology – as some define the phrasing as “conditional efforts”… I now belong to God and Im subject to His will and as an effect of the Holy Spirit things are manifested in my doings but not because I am good but because of His spirit. No person can do ANYTHING without GOD! That includes works! Without the Holy Spirit we are lost dogs. I understand what the writer meant when he said : we “should” and I agree. I was just adding that just as we “should” do good works, if we fervently / passionately try to seek God in truth and in our hearts then those things will start to become a “byproduct” of our walk in Christ because of the Holy Spirit who is far greater than our flesh and earthly mind. Like learning to ride a bicycle… lots of effort at first but after a while it becomes just a normal everyday deal. Except, the Holy Spirit knows what we dont know and does some things for us…etc. I think that made scents. LOL!
ROMANS:3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one……….. read on to 27
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith..
There are NO WORKS anyone can do for salvation. There is NOTHING anyone can do on there own. There is only one GOSPEL, one SALVATION, and one GOD.
(Administrator’s note: comment has been edited for content)
Chad, thanks for your comment.
Just to be crystal clear: Christians who are walking with Christ, fervently trying to please Him, obey Him, etc., will be likely to do good works. But, there are many Christians who do not fit the above category. They are still eternally secure believers.
This excerpt from the first installment of Tom Cucuzza’s sermon series on the book of James says it very well:
Grace. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Not “must” – that would be works. Not “will” – that would be Calvinism. No, it’s should. We should.
johninnc, Yes you are correct. What I was saying is those who are teaching true salvation, then are getting into unprofitable things after the fact… I wrote “(please understand, I am only talking about the “tit for tat” stuff that is still with in the belief of grace by faith alone & not a new teaching or sacraments, or works to get to salvation…etc. Those are not Gospel and are of the Devil designed to weaken the efforts of the church & make some believe the lie.)”
Let me say it in another way. One of the biggest and most effective ways the devil has turned the truth and created divisions in the Body of Christ is through “INTERPRETATION” of words / terms. This is used in Law practice today and is a dirty trick. Our current administration in Washington are using these tactics as we speak and you can see the damage being done.
So where interpretation tricks used in the church are concerned:
*One man says “WORKS” and defines it: Accomplishments / Tasks one must do in order to maintain, keep, or gain their salvation.
*Another man with proper understanding of the Written Word and Grace would define “WORKS” as: Efforts a Christian (who has already excepted salvation by Grace) does for Christ and / or in the Name of Jesus without expectation of reward or gain.
As you can see above, the two men may discuss salvation and or other areas of scripture but walk away with two complete different ideas of what was being said.
So, back to what I was trying to articulate was simply that with the understanding that the preacher or person teaching has a “correct” understanding of salvation by Grace on the front end but then gets into talking about “works” and things after one is saved…etc, many times it isn’t what we may think by definition is being said by the person. When this happens we as Christians spend decades arguing facts here and there and find that we get no place trying to talk them into understanding. Instead, we are building a rift between each other. This is a division that will not allow us to be one. It keeps us too busy arguing to see the enemy working around us.
Luke 9:52
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Mathew 18:20
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
And Yes Eph 2:10 tells us: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” This is absolutely true!
The definition of ORDAINED is: “To prearrange unalterably; predestine:” showing that we that walk in Christ have been predestined to bring forth the “good works” that have been made manifest through the Holy Spirit that God placed inside of us who are in Christ.
Where I spoke of “You just cant help doing those good works”…..
I should have been more clear on my meaning in the way I wrote it.
I can put it as in my own life example & maybe it will make sense.
When I became a Christian years ago, I knew I was saved without any doubt by Gods Grace only and not because I deserved it or did anything except believe (have faith) in Jesus and what He did for me on the cross to make the payment in full for my sin. However, I still did many things that I did before in life and many things I did I didn’t even see as wrong. When I began to search fervently for truth and to be closer with God later in life, I began to see God opening my eyes to things differently (not because of a new understanding). I began to react to people and things in life in a new way. I had a desire to help people and to do things without wanting reward or payment just for the sake of helping someone…etc. I did not do these things with a conscious effort or cognitive decision. They just became ME. LOL! Not saying it is of me because it is not… It is God and ONLY God effecting my doings. The Holy Spirit radiates inside of us more and more as we call on the Lord with all our heart and as we call on God and try to move closer to God in life (Walk In Christ). His voice gets clearer and louder as we truly attempt to talk with Him. If we are walking in Christ then yes we should have good works. But these works are not the other type of “works” that are defined as conditional acts. When we move one step closer to God then God moves toward us. He guides us and pulls our heart to do things pleasing to Him. We surrender ourselves to Him as vessels… As God’s temple. If we surrender to Him then He guides us from inside of us. Have you ever after being saved tried to go some place or do something you knew was wrong? Even if you do go there or do that thing you will know that it was wrong and felt God’s Spirit inside letting you know that He knows and then your conscience wont shut up. LOL! The same thing happens in daily life as we walk in Christ…. We are led to do good things (good works). When I first got saved, I felt God telling me when I was doing wrong things. When I began to try and walk truly in Christ, my mind and desires just kinda faded away and changed. I did not want them to but they did. If you remove the definitions of “WORKS” then we are saying basically the same thing I believe.
I can do NOTHING on my own. But, I can do all things THROUGH Christ who STRENGTHENS me. .
(Administrator’s note: comment has been edited for length and content)
Chad, welcome and thanks for your comments.
You said quite a few things, and I would like to address just three of them:
You said: “If ANY believe on Jesus as the only begotten Son of God who was sent to die and was risen from the dead for our sins THEY ARE SAVED. If that person after the fact gets into works means this or that, and this church or that understanding of grace then that is simply (WEAK FAITH) & doesn’t change their salvation.”
My comment: If someone believes that Christ died “for his sins” he is saved. If one believes he must “do his part” by turning from sin, committing to Christ, etc. in order to have eternal life, then he really doesn’t believe that Christ paid the FULL price for his sins. That is, he is not trusting in Christ alone.
You said: “The same as what many mistake as “works” are simply byproducts of walking in faith / believing in Christ. You just cant help doing them once born again because they are a part of you after salvation.”
My comment: If a believer is walking with Christ, he should have good works. And, they are not mistaken as works. They are works. Please see Ephesians 2:10. I disagree completely that “you just can’t help doing them once born again because they are a part of you after salvation.” They are not automatic. Notice that Ephesians 2:10 says “SHOULD.” It does not say “WILL”.
You said: “The Illuminati, Freemasons, Charismatics, Evangelicals, New Age church, Zionism, Catholicism, Jesuits, Mormonism, leaders in high places, who are all practicing the arts of satan…..etc. They are all working together (some do not know it) to bring a lie upon this earth.”
My comment: Anyone who is teaching a false gospel is doing the work of Satan. But, to lump all evangelicals into this category would be a colossal mistake. We are supposed to evangelize.
If you follow a denomination (a 501c3 business) then you are (weather you like it or not) partaking in the “doctrine of men”. John 3:16 lays it out then places a period. The gospel is Mathew, Mark, Luke, John. After these books are historical records of the church’s beginning, struggles, growth (letters to the churches)… then you get into prophecies concerning the last days. Our enemy is NOT other Christian people teaching about Jesus and the cross… Our enemy is powers, principalities, and rulers of darkness. If another preacher teaches Christ is the only begotten Son of God and Grace by Faith for salvation (Grace by belief in the blood shed by Jesus for payment of our sin then His resurrection).. then the rest isn’t a huge deal to focus on. If ANY believe on Jesus as the only begotten Son of God who was sent to die and was risen from the dead for our sins THEY ARE SAVED. If that person after the fact gets into works means this or that, and this church or that understanding of grace then that is simply (WEAK FAITH) & doesn’t change their salvation. We shouldn’t make a big deal about it. It is for Jesus to address and deal with that. God excepts all who believe in His son and the cross. For those who search for truth the Holy Spirit will bring them to truth. (please understand, I am only talking about the “tit for tat” stuff that is still with in the belief of grace by faith alone & not a new teaching or sacraments, or works to get to salvation…etc. Those are not Gospel and are of the Devil designed to weaken the efforts of the church & make some believe the lie.). We as Christians are under no law (law was nailed to the cross) and as we have freedom we have only 2 commandments (not laws) “1.love the Lord God with all thy heart 2.love thy neighbor as thy self. These we cant even do in our own flesh on our own. However, as we seek God fervently all these things are made manifest through the spirit that we receive due to the abundant grace of God. The same as what many mistake as “works” are simply byproducts of walking in faith / believing in Christ. You just cant help doing them once born again because they are a part of you after salvation. We HAVE to focus on the true enemy as Christians. We are at war with the evil things practiced from the beginning before the flood and after in Babylon. The Illuminati, Freemasons, Charismatics, Evangelicals, New Age church, Zionism, Catholicism, Jesuits, Mormonism, leaders in high places, who are all practicing the arts of satan…..etc. They are all working together (some do not know it) to bring a lie upon this earth. They are each a part of Mystery Babylon and are exercising the powers to evoke and invoke familiar spirits and are about to unveil their false messiah (the dragon, anti-christ, and the false prophet). This is the season that Jesus told us would come. These are those days and now more than ever we need to come together in our SIMPLE shared understanding of scripture and be ONE. The Saints, The Bride of Christ, The Elect….. Its those who belong to the King of Kings – Jesus Christ that must stand up to the enemy (not with force but with the armor of God) and tell the world that the Kingdom of God is at hand! His RETURN is IMMINENT! And tell them all that God’s temple is INSIDE your body NOT inside a building. We Christians have Jesus…..Now, what are we gonna do with Him? We are t be a light to the world! If we do not stop focusing on each others faults (which the devil has done a good job at keeping us fusing among each other) then we will NEVER be able to spot the coming deception, and those who are creeping in unawares….. Anyway, just throwing that out there! lol! Jesus is KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS and my friends, He is ON HIS WAY to pick up His BRIDE! Sound the alarms and get your houses in order. May God be with you all.
To all:
I have just posted a new article which might interest you:
Why a Good-Boy Bad-Boy Lordship “Salvation” is a Lie
https://expreacherman.com/2011/11/28/why-a-good-boy-bad-boy-lordship-salvation-is-a-lie/
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Jack and John,
Thank you for your opinions.
God’s blessings…
Jack, notice how little scriptural reference there is in either of the long quotes from Spurgeon. For someone who is reputed to have known scripture so well, Spurgeon seemed to rely on yarns and other extra-Biblical material to promote a false gospel.
Chris,
You amaze me.. you praise the idea of a peacemaker (whom I love as a Sister in Christ) and then you rub salt into the wound for a dozen paragraphs.
Mr. Spurgeon himself gives me the greatest reason, the greatest lie not to ever recommend him, regardless of other “beautiful” words:
From his TURN OR BURN SERMON:
In the next place, repentance to be sure must be entire. How many will say, “Sir, I will renounce this sin and the other; but there are certain darling lusts which I must keep and hold.” O sirs, In God’s name let me tell you, it is not the giving up of one sin, nor fifty sins, which is true repentance; it is the solemn renunciation of every sin. If thou dost harbour one of those accursed vipers in thy heart, thy repentance is but a sham. If thou dost indulge in but one lust, and dost give up every other, that one lust, like one leak in a ship, will sink thy soul. Think it not sufficient to give up thy outward vices; fancy it not enough to cut off the more corrupt sins of thy life; it is all or none which God demands. “Repent,” says he; and when he bids you repent, he means repent for all thy sins, otherwise he never can accept thy repentance as being real and genuine. The true penitent hates sin in the race, not in the individual—in the mass, not in the particular. He says, “Gild thee as thou wilt, O sin, I abhor thee! Ay, cover thyself with pleasure, make thyself guady, like the snake with its azure scales—I hate thee still, for I know thy venom, and I flee from thee, even when thou comest to me in the most specious garb.” All sin must be given up, or else you shall never have Christ: all transgression must be renounced, or else the gates of heaven must be barred against you. Let us remember, then, that for repentance to be sincere it must be entire repentance.
A beautiful use of the English language but totally false teaching on “repentance.” For Ole Spurg to tell the lost that they must turn from their sins “or else the gates of heaven must be barred against you. is simply a lie. Spurgeon’s message here is not salvation by Grace through Faith but preaching/teaching a WORKS “salvation,” is condemned in the Bible as accursed.
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
There is no place in God’s Word that tells us to turn from sin or the gates of Heaven must be barred against you.
I will NEVER recommend Spurgeon to anyone, despite his “mastery of the English language.” Too bad he does not have the same mastery of God’s Word.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Chris, thanks for your comments. But, Spurgeon taught “turn from sins for salvation, as is clearly seen in the below excerpt from “The Soul Winner”. If you believe one must turn from sins for salvation, then you will agree with Spurgeon. Like I said before, I don’t.
“Together with undivided faith in Jesus Christ there must also be unfeigned repentance of sin. Repentance is an old-fashioned word, not much used by modern revivalists. “Oh!” said a minister to me, one day, “it only means a change of mind.” This was thought to be a profound observation. “Only a change of mind”; but what a change! A change of mind with regard to everything! Instead of saying, “It is only a change of mind,” it seems to me more truthful to say it is a great and deep change—even a change of the mind itself. But whatever the literal Greek word may mean, repentance is no trifle. You will not find a better definition of it than the one given in the children’s hymn:—
“Repentance is to leave
The sins we loved before
And show that we in earnest grieve,
By doing so no more.”
True conversion is in all men attended by a sense of sin, which we have spoken of under the head of conviction; by a sorrow for sin, or holy grief at having committed it; by a hatred of sin, which proves that its dominion is ended; and by a practical turning from sin, which shows that the life within the soul is operating upon the life without. True belief and true repentance are twins: it would be idle to attempt to say which is born first. All the spokes of a wheel move at once when the wheel moves, and so all the graces commence action when regeneration is wrought by the Holy Ghost. Repentance, however, there must be. No sinner looks to the Saviour with a dry eye or a hard heart. Aim, therefore, at heart-breaking, at bringing home condemnation to the conscience, and weaning the mind from sin, and be not content till the whole mind is deeply and vitally changed in reference to sin.
Another proof of the conquest of a soul for Christ will be found in a real change of life. If the man does not live differently from what he did before, both at home and abroad, his repentance needs to be repented of; and his conversion is a fiction. Not only action and language, but spirit and temper must be changed. “But,” says someone, “grace is often grafted on a crab-stock.” I know it is; but what is the fruit of the grafting? The fruit will be like the graft, and not after the nature of the original stem. “But,” says another, “I have an awful temper, and all of a sudden it overcomes me. My anger is soon over, and I feel very penitent. Though I cannot control myself; I am quite sure I am a Christian.” Not so fast, my friend, or I may answer that I am quite as sure the other way. What is the use of your soon cooling if in two or three moments you scald all around you? If a man stabs me in a fury, it will not heal my wound to see him grieving over his madness. Hasty temper must be conquered, and the whole man must be renewed, or conversion will be questionable. We are not to hold up a modified holiness before our people, and say, You will be all right if you reach that standard. The Scripture says, “He that committeth sin is of the devil.” Abiding under the power of any known sin is a mark of our being the servants of sin, for “his servants ye are to whom ye obey.” Idle are the boasts of a man who harbours within himself the love of any transgression. He may feel what he likes, and believe what he likes, he is still in the gall of bitterness and the bonds of iniquity while a single sin rules his heart and life. True regeneration implants a hatred of all evil; and where one sin is delighted in, the evidence is fatal to a sound hope. A man need not take a dozen poisons to destroy his life, one is quite sufficient.”
Pearl,
What else can be said but:
“Blessed are the peacemakers; for they shall be called the children of God.”
Jack,
As far as I understand the Lordship Salvation issue, I agree with you. It does nothing but muddy the water. And on the topic of Calvinism, the last time I read over the popular TULIP acronym I found I could not line up with even one position.
I consider myself neither a Bible scholar nor an expert on Mr. Spurgeon.
Having stated that…
You wrote:
“One of the reasons I do not promote Spurgeon is because he is all over the map in doctrine. Agreed, he has written/spoken some great sermons but he has also messed up the pure Grace Gospel on many occasions.
“Therefore if I recommend him, some undiscerning folks will want to go read his stuff and the more one reads — the more he is swept into the trap of Calvinism and his other errors. Best to simply stay away from recommending such.”
I would never try and convince you to recommend someone you thought messed up the Gospel. However, I beg to differ on both paragraphs. I have read more than most have of Mr. Spurgeon and I have not been swept into Calvinism. His words have had no effect on me in that regard. I have found Mr. Spurgeon’s messages to be gracious and representative of a loving God that wishes all to come to Him.
You call Spurgeon “all over the map” in doctrine. I find him to be quite consistent although I could understand how he could be taken otherwise. I have found no preacher to be perfectly consistent. In fact, I have heard no perfect sermon, except for those which are found in the Bible.
You would not want to promote Mr. Spurgeon because he might mess up some young Christian’s thinking. I think this is admirable, but at the same time one might say that reading the Bible might mess up one’s thinking. I am not equating Spurgeon with scripture. I am only aware that he was so familiar with it.
Yes, Mr. Spurgeon deals with some difficult subjects; subjects one might not want a young Christian to have as their first bone to chew on.
I usually recommend the Gospels to those just learning about Jesus.
At the same time, those young Christians are going to eventually run across the terms “predestinate,” “elect,” and “chosen,” if they are reading the KJV (as opposed to Mr. Eugene “God of green hope” Peterson’ s message). I think Mr. Spurgeon deals with these subjects in a fair way for the most part. Most of what I have read on his treatment of such subjects is brilliantly done.
Since many preachers (every one that I’ve been around) won’t preach on these texts, I have found Mr. Spurgeon to be of great value. I just finished reading one of his “election” sermons and found it to be a great message of grace and hope. The text was Matthew 15:24, 25. It is the verse where Jesus tells the woman from Canaan, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” I could only wish to have Jesus speak of me as he did that woman.
The Sermon is titled: “How to Meet the Doctrine of Election” and was delivered on a Thursday evening, July 31st, 1884. (In case you wish to look it up.)
Of the close to 200 (I certainly haven’t read them all) sermons I have from Mr. Spurgeon, only 12 of them deal with the subject of election and half of those are in a small paperback containing sermons on the subject spanning 40 years (1855-1895).
Mr. Spurgeon is no different than the rest of us. He was a work being molded as he progressed in knowledge and wisdom. I’m not saying that some of his early works aren’t great, but as he ages his message (on the topic of being “chosen”) becomes even better.
One of his favorite verses dealing with this difficult subject (the elect) was, I think, John 6:37:
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.” (Check out the NLT translation of this verse…ouch.) Mr. Spurgeon could preach to both sides of the verse and in my experience he quoted the last half more than the first.
When the TULIP definition of Calvinism was invented, I believe Mr. Spurgeon had left this world. From what I’ve read, I don’t think Mr. Spurgeon would line up with the five point Calvinists as nicely as some think. If he had, I would disagree with him.
As a much greater scholar than I, I’m sure Mr. Spurgeon was well aware of the Arminian/Calvinist argument.
(The 5 mains points of doctrine in dispute at Dordt were in this order–ULTIP–though of course with different terminology.)
I try and read my Bible daily. Mr. Spurgeon is relegated to the little time where I can fit him. Most of those whom I talk about the Lord to have no idea who Mr. Spurgeon is, what the Calvinistic “TULIP” is, or that the Bible uses the terminology election and pre-destination, or that their works will not be getting them to heaven.
I assure you that I hand out Bibles and not the works of Mr. Spurgeon. I know that would be unwise, particularly with most of the folks I get to talk to. I use Eph. 2:8-9 as a main verse on a daily basis.
In the little time I have left on this planet, I may come to view my friend less favorably. At the same time, I understand why so many people listened to him week in and week out in an era when there was much less free time to give.
I understand your position on Mr. Spurgeon and I will not mention him here again.
John,
We all have a history that affects the way we think. I know I am still on the learning curve, feeling I have just scratched the surface of God’s Word.
I was a young man who left a ministry job because of misbehavior by the leaders in the church where I worked. I wandered for several years. One day I was in a Christian bookstore and picked up what must have been the oldest book in the place. It was a book of Mr. Spurgeon’s sermons. From the first word until now, I have believed the man to be brilliant. I felt uplifted each time I read one of his sermons. He spoke on difficult topics that I had never heard preached on elsewhere. They were Biblical topics. His tone made him never seem to have all the answers, as far as I can tell, but He was certain that God did. In cases where he believed the Word to be clear, he wasn’t afraid to speak out no matter who might be offended. I find him to be humble, honest, and he must have been very hard working even though I’ve never found him to preach salvation by works, something I’m sure I would have noticed since I was raised in what I thought was a very “by grace alone” setting.
In a way, Mr. Spurgeon has been a mentor to me. He has not forced me to be a Calvinist. I have questioned certain things about the man, but I wish I had his knowledge and I wish I had known him. I guess I feel like I do know him. In fact, I would consider him a friend as far as it is possible. I believe I will meet him someday when all the hard questions evaporate.
I’ve had a completely different Christian experience than you have had (Thanks for the info Pearl).
I was raised in a church where I never heard the word Calvinism and I never understood it to be the controversial subject it is until a decade or so ago. I’m old enough that the “Lordship Salvation” issue wasn’t around yet. The LCMS church my family attended was a strong proponent of “sola gratia.” Salvation is by grace alone. I am no longer a member of an LCMS church (As Z has mentioned, it is not nearly as liberal as the ELCA church highlighted here), but I believe the message that I heard over and over for many years, that we are saved by grace alone, is the truth.
If Mr. Spurgeon or anyone else confuses you, I would recommend not reading their materials.
Obviously, I am not as hard on Mr. Spurgeon as you are. He may have been talking to those whom he considered “saved” in the last quote you shared. Any unwise, harsh words that Mr. Spurgeon spoke were easily multiplied many times over by the kindness of a flock’s shepherd. At least, that is my reading experience.
Also, here is an interesting opinion that I found while checking around. I think it is a quote from the same sermon you noted.
{{ Link removed by Admin.. because of Confusing doctrine }}
Although I think Mr. McArthur threw a huge wrench into the cogs with this “Lordship” thing, I don’t know if Mr. Stewart has all of the facts straight.
I will not make excuses for Mr. Spurgeon if I believe him to be in error. At the same time, I need to see his sermons in their entirety to give a good, personal assessment.
God’s blessings to you all…
Hi Z,
Have a blessed Thanksgiving today..
Bruce is right — no one accused all Lutheran churches of being carbon copies of San Fran’s “HerChurch.”
Now, unless I misunderstood, you made one statement about which not “all Christians would agree.”
You stated, “Faith ONLY from God.” Faith is not a gift from God. That is a teaching derived from Reformed/Calvinist teaching and is not accurate. I don’t know if Luther proclaimed that but regardless, it is not correct.
Grace and Salvation are Gifts from God but in order to possess God’s Salvation, we must receive Christ by faith (believe) in Jesus Christ. To say otherwise would mean that God “gives faith” to some and leaves the rest to an eternity in hell.
(Ephesians 2:8-9, John 1:12 and John 3:18 refute those false teachings) It is our individual choice to believe in Jesus Christ — it is not automatic. Did I misunderstand you?
Think of you often.
In Jesus Christ eternally (by my choice and His keeping), Jack
Z . . . .
I don’t remember anyone in the discussion calling the San Francisco church “mainline” or that all Lutheran churches were like it in their beliefs and practices. I thought that it was obvious that this was an aberrant false “church” under discussion.
I think it’s dishonest that there is no mention here of the fact that this couldn’t be further from the Lutheran Missouri or Wisconsin Synod church. ELCA also welcomes gay pastors….Missouri and Wisconsin Synod DO NOT. NO WAY. ..they’re as true to Scripture as possible, whether people here agree or not! That’s not really important.
For Luther, everything (EVERYTHING) was God…grace from GOD, Scripture from GOD, Faith ONLY from God.
I’m surprised at the conversation because I believe most Christians know what I’ve said above is true…this is ‘mainline’ thinking like Punch and Judy reading the Epistles at church is ‘mainline’!
Happy Thanksgiving………z
Faith,
Thanks for your wonderful comment.
Your church experience is so similar to many others we hear about. Confusion, generated by mixed up teaching combined with a leader who is unable to clearly discern Scriptural Liberty in Christ. That IS Calvinism and Lordship “salvation.”
What a terrible thing it must be — pulled back and forth — not knowing whether to settle on Free Will faith in Jesus Christ or Calvinism/Lordship “salvation.” The Bible is so clear on Free Will.
Isn’t it wonderful to simply rest on the promises of Eternal Life in Jesus Christ by God’s Free Grace?
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
What gracious responses!
I, too, see the error in Spurgeon, but this is like what I heard when I went to the Lordship Salvation/Calvinist church. There were many contradictions. It was almost like they could not decide between Free Will and Five point Calvinism. This is why I began to look at it more closely and found it sorely lacking. I would literally hear in my conversation five point and free will in the same breath! It was very confusing to say the least. Spurgeon, I feel, probaly was struggling with both and that is why you have the contradictions- He should, however, not have picked up a pen and confused more.
I do know though that many of the people I went to church with were believers and loved the Lord, but I equate the church with what Paul was trying to get the Galations to understand about legalism and its many trappings.
Galatians 5:1-6
Christian Liberty
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,[a] and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love
I am relieved and blessed by both your gracious responses. I believe I know your heart, Jack, given what you have shared with us growing up in a Calvinist family and still having most family members caught up therein. Same goes for you, John, as I stated above. Your testimony is dynamic.
It is plain to me you both have a passion for the lost and those blindsided by Calvinism/LS. And I wholly agree it is painful, let alone frustrating, to witness folks willfully choosing the false over the purity and simplicity of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
All the more we understand Paul’s pleading with the Corinthian church,
“For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.” 2 Corinthians 11:2-4
Pearl, thanks for the advice – I know I err on the side of being too direct. Let me see if I can explain myself in a more gracious way.
As I was becoming enlightened to God’s Grace, I was continually confused (and set back) by Free Grace advocates who would quote Spurgeon favorably. I did a lot of reading, and could never reconcile Spurgeon’s overall body of work with Free Grace. I couldn’t understand the inconsistencies and knew that I would never have assurance of salvation if I believed Spurgeon’s preaching. In order to trust Christ for eternal security, I had to repudiate all of the false LS teaching, irrespective of source.
I know Spurgeon is revered by many, but I am not one of them. I have a heart for the Gospel of our living Lord, and I believe the perversion of that Gospel through the additon of works, however subtle, is the ultimate abuuse of the Cross.
Thanks Pearl,
Point well taken..
Error is error — and when addressing error with such a friend as Chris, I may have been a bit unintentionally abrupt.. But you, John and I like most of us have all been fooled by error at some time in our life.. therefore I am passionate about revealing the Truth of Jesus Christ and exposing error against Him where it exists.
For years I heard no Gospel and then a message that a person must “repent and turn from sin” to be saved.. That message was wrong then and it is wrong today. And I am more passionate about the error today than back then..
Pearl, pray with me that I will be more compassionate in my passion for the clarity of the Gospel but no less passionate. 😎
The pure Grace Gospel of my Savior Jesus Christ is too precious and valuable to accommodate or encourage error about it. I can’t imagine my Savior condoning such error.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Morning all,
It is a sad conclusion the discussion with Chris has taken.
Chris,
As a bystander to this conversation and knowing Jack personally, I understood the quote in question to mean preachers citing questionable teachers/books such as Piper/The Message from the pulpit was a ptiful thing, though I did wince as I read it because I knew it may not be received as such.
As for John, he has spent a great many years agonizing beneath the heavy weight of Lordship Salvation and is just recently liberated from its shackles. He is very keen to LS errors, and, rightly so, takes great offence to its very subtle yet poisonous doctrine, not you personally.
Jack and John,
I get no pleasure in asserting myself here, but the old adage you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar applies here. Extreme sensitivity, patience and grace toward those unfamiliar and perhaps blinded by LS must be present when attempting to nail down this slippery, aberrant theology. By inadvertantly offending those who may be considering your message, there is a very real danger of solidifying their opposing stance.
Knowing and being fond of each of you as my brothers in Christ, I hope you will receive my words as they are intended: with love and concern.
Chris,
Our problem is not with you but with the teachers who preach a false message. And we, as discerning believers, should hesitate to advertise such teachers.
May I presume you do not approve of Spurgeon’s false messages? What do you say to a babe in Christ who picks up false doctrine after you recommend that he read Spurgeon?
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Chris, my comments were not targeted to you alone. Nor did I call you ignorant.
If one believes in Lordship “salvation” and reformed/Calvinist theology, it would be wholly consistent for him to recommend Spurgeon.
If one believes in salvation by Grace through faith alone in Christ alone, Spurgeon’s teachings would be inconsistent with those beliefs.
I believe in salvation by Grace through faith alone in Christ alone. I believe that “turning from sins” for salvation is a perversion of Grace, because the unsaved person could be led to believe he was trading the promise of good works for salvation. I believe this, because it happened to me.
So, Chris, I am not trying to be unkind, just to point out that Spurgeon’ s teachings are not consistent with belief that salvation is by Grace through faith alone in Christ alone.
Thanks. John
Jack,
You wrote:
Pitiful for anyone to recommend a teacher who preaches false messages — even though they may mix them up with some good messages.
John,
You wrote:
How anyone who has a good fundamental understanding of God’s Grace could, in good conscience, recommend Spurgeon, is beyond me.
Thus, I am pitiful and ignorant. It is true, but I’ve been treated nicer on blogs that were very liberal in their theology.
I’m not saying that ya’ll don’t have it down pat.
God’s blessings…
Like all people who drift into false doctrine, Spurgeon sometimes told the truth. But, consider this quote from his sermon entitled “Turn or Burn”:
“IF THE SINNER turn not, God will whet his sword….. Do you say you are sorry, and repent, and yet go on from day to day, just as you always went? Will your now bow your heads, and say, “Lord, I repent,” and in a little while commit the same deeds again? If ye do, your repentance is worse than nothing, and shall but make your destruction yet more sure; for he that voweth to his Maker, and doth not pay, hath committed another sin, in that he hath attempted to deceive the Almighty, and lie against the God that made him. Repentance to be true, to be evangelical, must be a repentance which really affects our outward conduct.”
Spurgeon was a Lordship “salvationist” through and through. He sounds just like MacArthur and the rest.
Spurgeon must have thought he was a pretty righteous dude, based on his own conduct, to be that dogmatic about how everyone else had to live to be saved.
How anyone who has a good fundamental understanding of God’s Grace could, in good conscience, recommend Spurgeon, is beyond me.
Chris,
One of the reasons I do not promote Spurgeon is because he is all over the map in doctrine. Agreed, he has written/spoken some great sermons but he has also messed up the pure Grace Gospel on many occasions.
Therefore if I recommend him, some undiscerning folks will want to go read his stuff and the more one reads — the more he is swept into the trap of Calvinism and his other errors. Best to simply stay away from recommending such.
Example. a preacher whom we listen to occasionally quoted the abomination, “The Message” and then John Piper. Naturally my first thought is that his baby Christian audience will pick up on that, go out immediately and buy their junk.
Pitiful for anyone to recommend a teacher who preaches false messages — even though they may mix them up with some good messages.
Naturally, Chris, that is your choice to recommend whom you choose and it is your Blog so if you can do so with a clear conscience, be sure it is what you know the Lord wants you to do. We can’t dictate, only recommend. 😎
God bless you too Chris.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Did I forget to mention that I admire Mr. Spurgeon’s knowledge of scripture?
John,
I have to agree with you on Spurgeon’s purversion of God’s Free Grace. I just don’t understand why some of the free grace baptist churches still recommending Spurgeon.
John,
I’ve got another Spurgeon quote for you.
It comes from his commentary on Ephesians 2.
“And that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
“Not of yourselves. What do these people mean who keep crying up the power of the human will, the wonderful dignity of the human nature, and all that kind of foolish talk? Salvation is not in ourselves: “it is the gift of God;’ not a reward which we have earned but a free gift which God bestows according to the riches of his grace.
“Not of works, lest any man should boast.
God will not have a boaster in heaven. He will not have the creature exalting himself in his presence. The command, ‘Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth,’ is backed up by this reason; ‘for I am God, and there is none else.’ Therefore unto God himself must be the praise and glory for all who are saved.
“For we are his workmanship,
Salvation cannot be of works, for if we have any good works, it is because we are God’s workmanship.”
Are you so sure Mr. Spurgeon required works and evidence of works for salvation?
God’s blessings…
Honestly, I am not a Calvinist but Mr. Spurgeon’s “Treasury of David” is in my top ten.
Chris, I don’t want to draw to much attention to Spurgeon, but I reject much of his teaching outright. Consider the following quotes from Spurgeon’s “The Soul Winner”:
“Together with undivided faith in Jesus Christ there must also be unfeigned repentance of sin. Repentance is an old-fashioned word, not much used by modern revivalists. “Oh!” said a minister to me one day, “it only means a change of mind.” This was thought to be a profound observation. “Only a change of mind”; but what a change!
Another proof of the conquest of a soul for Christ will be found in a real change of life. If the man does not live differently from what he did before, both at home and abroad, his repentance needs to be repented of, and his conversion is a fiction. Not only action and language, but spirit and temper must be changed. True regeneration implants a hatred of all evil; and where one sin is delighted in, the evidence is fatal to a sound hope. There must also be a willingness to obey the Lord in all His commandments.”
Chris, this is not something I am a fan of. It is a perversion of God’s Free Grace. It requires works and evidence of works for salvation.
Jack,
Sorry I questioned your memory. They say as you get older…
nevermind. I must be getting older.
John,
I found what you saw and agree that it would probably not line up with Free Grace thinking. Thanks for following up.
I have to admit to being a Spurgeon fan even though, I think, he called himself a Calvinist. At the same time he spoke against “hyper-Calvinists” which makes me think he may have been a one or two-pointer. I am not a Calvinist, but I respect the man’s usage of the English language.
God’s blessings…
Also, asking God to save you is not an appropriate response to the Gospel We are called to believe. Please see the quotes below from “Preaching the Gospel in its Accuracy” by Lewis S. Chafer:
“Since God is propitious, it is wholly out of order to ask Him to save, as though He must be persuaded to do what He, at infinite cost, has prepared to do.”
“To ask for propitiation is to discard what Christ has done and ask that something more by provided. Men are not saved by getting God to do something, they are saved when they dare to believe that God has done something.”
Dear Jack and Chris,
Michael Hoggard gave talkes at the highly questionable ministry: The Prophecy Club. I would be very careful with anyone associated with The Prophecy Club or even god.tv . Chuck Missler is on god.tv , some of his teachings are not biblical. I mention Chuck Missler because I found his youtube video being featured on Chris’s web site. If one wants to know more on Chuck Missler’s issues, one could do a search on him using the search engine on thebereancall.org web site.
Correction – the above quote was from the “About Us” tab, not the “Home” tab.
The site also includes a Spurgeon Daily Devotional I have read Spurgeon extensively He was a reformed Calvinist who wrote volumes of material that would be considered anything but Free Grace
Chris, you didn’t look very hard Following is a quote from the Bethel Church Home Page:
“We also believe the true church of Jesus Christ consists of those who have truly repented of their sins and by faith have put their trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins.”
Hi Jack,
I’m not trying to be a pain. I’m only trying to be fair to Pastor Hoggard.
I’m certainly not trying to influence you to put the link back up.
However, after checking his church web site (Bethel Church, Festus MO) this is what comes up when you “click here” under “How to be Saved:”
Do you know without a doubt that you are saved?
Have you accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior?
DO YOU KNOW?
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have
everlasting life. (John 3:16)
WHO IS GOOD?
As it is written, There is none righteous, not not one. (Romans 3:10)
WHO HAS SINNED?
For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)
WHERE SIN CAME FROM
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin:
and so death passed upon ALL men, for that
ALL have sinned. (Romans 5:12)
GOD’S PRICE ON SIN
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through
Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
GOD’S WAY OUT!
But God commendeth His love toward us in that, while we were yet
sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe
in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead thou
shalt be saved. (Romans 10:9)
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)
Will you please call upon the Lord Jesus
now and ask Him to Save you?
That’s all that I found.
I see nothing there that says we must “repent of our sins” to believe in Jesus Christ.
…or did I miss something.
God’s blessings…
Chris,
Thanks for your understanding. Some of what I read is OK but the repentance quote alone is enough.
I think I will remove that link until we find what Hoggard really believes. His repentance error is enough. There is simply no place in scripture where the lost are told to “repent of your sins” to be saved.
We pray the Lord will bless you and yours.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Jack,
I figured you would do a little research into Mr. Hoggard. It is to your credit that you question as you do. I would be the least bit upset if you found that his teaching didn’t line up with yours and removed my link.
Honestly, I don’t know much about him either. I have seen him a few times and haven’t heard anything way off base.
At the same time, in this video he focuses on the same Sophia that you have mentioned in this post and he gives her the same blasphemous treatment that you or I would give her.
I am not always as lenient as I have been with Mr. Hoggard. I recently spent 200 minutes watching “Dr.” Carl Sanders before checking his credentials. I had to go back to the Christian friends who recommended Mr. Sanders to me and share my findings. The man is a habitual liar.
As my friends appreciated my findings, I’m appreciative of the “red flags” you have shared with me.
You wrote:
“I notice the web site speaks of demons as being extraterrestrials and a few other terms that are foreign to my basic Bible theology. “
I don’t know of the “few other items” of which you write, but I believe that, if E.T.s are real, they are spiritual in nature. And I would lean heavily on the demonic side.
God’s blessings…
Chris,
Thanks, I followed the link.
I don’t know this fellow Michael Hoggard.. What can you tell us about his basic theology. I have to say I’ve not found an hour to listen to his video sermon.
I notice the web site speaks of demons as being extraterrestrials and a few other terms that are foreign to my basic Bible theology. Hoggard’s church web site also says we must “repent of our sins” to believe in Jesus Christ, without describing exactly what that often-misrepresented word “repent” means.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Thanks Jack.
I’ll give it another try.
{{ Link removed with comment author’s permission}}
God’s blessings…
Chris,
Without fancy coding, it won’t post as a link. Just insert the copy of the link itself.
In Christ eternally, Jack
Sorry…
I thought THE SACRED FEMININE would post as a link.
Hi Jack, Bruce, and all,
I saw this story and couldn’t believe my eyes. I’m almost sure I was in that “church” building in the early ‘80s. I was teaching at a LCMS school in San Francisco at the time and we would go to this “church” for basketball games. It wasn’t purple then.
It is amazing how far we have fallen so quickly.
And speaking of Sophia, my latest blog post is of a pastor speaking on this very subject.
THE SACRED FEMININE
God’s blessings…
AOW,
Yep, Rick Warren is one of many. Likewise John MacArthur, Francis Chan and John Piper are a few of the more prominent. Those four head the list.
They have spawned an octopus-like “discipleship” from their false doctrine, which is spreading throughout “evangelical” churches..
You’ll notice several articles here on our web site exposing their false Lordship teaching.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Jack,
In your comment to me above, might you be referring to Rick Warren (for one)?
Marcella,
I am saddened by your apparent change of stance regarding the Free Grace vs. Lordship Salvation debate. May the Lord keep you and be your guide as you search for the truth of Scripture.
It’s just like the preachers, who stand on their false doctrine and won’t back down. They try to convince you that their teachings are right and what you believe is wrong. Of course, they are going to try to cover up the truth. Afterall, they don’t want people to know that they are being deceived. Despicable. Absolutely despicable.
Hi Marcella,
I think that you accidentally linked to a pro-LS/anti-Free Grace site. We prefer that such sites not be promoted here.
This explains everything.
[Link removed by administrator]
Marcella,
Glad you are out of the Lutheran church. Kinda nice to breathe the clean clear air of the Free Grace Gospel, isn’t it?
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Sorry I’m posting so much. What really troubles me is when people do crazy stuff in the name of Christianity. When unbelievers see it, they think that’s what Christianity is, and they poke fun at us, and they don’t want to have anything to do with Christianity. Afterall, they label all of us “hypocrites!”
As I mentioned in a previous post, I visited a MO Lutheran Church this summer and met with the Pastor. We discussed Luther’s Small Cathecism, and I was shocked to realized it’s riddled with so much error! I never knew and I grew up Lutheran.
It’s no surprise to me that the LCMS or any other Lutheran church for that matter has LS in its beliefs and statement of faith. They teach that infant baptism offers salvation because a person “automatically becomes a member of God’s family” when they get baptized. That’s what I was taught, that’s what I heard from preachers, who baptized infants, and that’s what I believed most of my life. Also, the LCMS teaches that Christ comes to us in communion, that He is present in the elements, and that communion offers salvation. I’m sorry, but the Bible clearly does not state any of this. It’s maddening that I was deceived, and it’s maddening that so many other people are deceived by the false doctrine/teaching.
Faith, I think that alot of false churches use the word “Christian” to deceive. It’s their way of proclaiming, “Yes, we are Christian, so come one, come all.” Under the facade, there are wolves deceiving, wounding and devouring unsuspecting people. I used to believe that everything labeled “Christian” really was Christian, so I’m sure there are alot of people, who also think that. It’s arsenal that the devil uses to twist, pervert and corrupt the truth of what it really means to be Christian.
Bruce, good for you to write to the ELCA. That denomination has bishops. If something happens in a church, the bishop is called upon to intervene. At my hometown church, the Pastor was gay. The Bishop was called, and the Pastor was asked to leave.
There was a strict ELCA bishop, who was excommunicating Pastors, who were taking a stand against gay clergy. The bishop supported it, so when Pastors, who opposed it, were leaving the ELCA, the bishop got pretty mean spirited towards them. One Pastor was standing on the Word and not backing down. The bishop treated that Pastor pretty harshly. Sad! There’s a different bishop in the ELCA here now, I think. Boy, these religious folks are fierce, and they won’t tolerate the truth or back down on supporting unbiblical matters. Whew!
“Gender changing of Bible text is certainly a form of blasphemy.” That’s so right, Jack! It’s upsetting to me and to you all, I know. When someone mocks God, Whom I love so dearly, it makes me angry and sometimes I cry.
Yes, we definitely suffered- it was awful!
One thing I noticed is that all the focus was on one thing:
worship of self.
Their whole premise was on the female persona- (boy, what male would want to enter the doors of this “church” is beyond me). There was no focus on what Christ did on the cross, no Scripture (unless it was there to serve THEIR purposes), no glory to God. The thing that is so sad that they do not realize is that when we give glory to God it legitmizes our purpose for even being here- it gives reason for our very existence. We were created to give glory and praise to God and in return we are able to have fellowship with Him forever. What could be better than that!!?
Thanks Faith, Good the “see” you.
Wow! You suffered through a “mass” from that church? Ugggg. What a learning experience for your daughter.
You quoted the right Scripture — the Cross IS foolishness to them that perish:
“Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”
1 Corinthians 1:25
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Hey Jack, Bruce, and others and the Lords blessings to you,
Wow! what can I say? My daughter and I watched a clip of their mass.
It was chaotic and a mess- the poor children that have to be subjected to such nonsense. The thing I noticed is when people turn away from God is that they go from reason to non-reason. Look at what liberalism has done to every aspect of our society today- foolishness.
I am so grateful of Gods Word and the “foolishness” of the cross- what I mean by that is that the world calls Christ’s death foolishness, but for those who want the truth it makes all the sense in the world- IT IS THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES SENSE!
I cannot understand for the life of me (even though this has been happening for centuries) if a church will not follow the Word, why in the world would they call themselves Christian? Keep a few tenets of the truth and forsake all other tenets of the truth? I am an all or nothing kind of gal- keep it or leave it- be hot or cold. This is the lukewarm church- bathe in some parts of truth (like have a Bible on display, be kind and compassionate towards one another, be good stewards, tithe) but don’t make it too hot (sin, Christs atoning death, hell, true grace from Christ, resurrection, diety of Christ, the Christian life) .
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Marcella,
Sorry you suffered a computer virus.. Yes, you are familiar with the LC error. One wonders what the Bible “gender changers” do with the constant Bible references to Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Gender changing of Bible text is certainly a form of blasphemy.
AOW,
Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts.. This particular church is so blatantly apostate that we who know the Truth — Jesus Christ as our Savior — are less likely to be fooled.. A far greater danger to Truth are the more subtle errors of “popular” works/Lordship “salvation” writers and teachers who are being readily accepted and welcomed into main-line Christianity.
Give our love to your husband — still praying for him!!
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Jack,
I’m speechless.
Angry.
This perversion of a church will face God’s judgment.
What troubles me most is how many are being led astray by this perversion of Christianity.
Hi Eddy,
Thanks for dropping by and thanks for your comments.
I went to the site that you mentioned and I looked up their statement on salvation. You are correct, that they are preaching a form of LS, and not so subtle at that. Listen to this statement on salvation from the site you gave:
“In the moment of death the souls of the believers enter the joy of heaven. Jesus said to the malefactor: “Today shalt thou be with Me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Stephen said in the hour of death: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” (Acts 7:59). Whoever dies in the Lord is blessed “from henceforth” (Rev. 14:13). Paul desires “to be with Christ,” and adds that this is “far
better” for him than to continue in the flesh (Phil. 1:23. 24).”
Good scripture so far, but it is their following statement of conclusion that I find most troublesome. It clearly demonstrates the hard-core Calvinist/LS mindset that assurance of salvation is simply not possible this side of heaven. Listen to their sad sad conclusion characterized by doubt and fear:
“For this reason we pray that finally, when our last hour has come, God would grant us a blessed end, and graciously take us from this vale of tears to Himself in heaven.”
This is certainly NOT the life of joy and confidence in the Lord by His grace that God would have us to live.
After examining the three PDF files titled: Baptism, Forgiveness, and Salvation on the LCMS web site, I do not think anyone here will agree with them on the Doctrine of Salvation. Here is how to access to the files:
Google “LCMS FAQ”, the first link returned by Google should be the link to their FAQ page. The PDF files are under the Doctrine tab of that page.
They are clearly preaching a subtle form of LS.
Hi Marcella,
Great to hear from you. I trust you are well.
Thanks for the added information on the “Her” church and the ELCA. I am much encouraged by what you said about the Missouri Lutheran pastor speaking out boldly against this weird “church.” After Jack placed this post, I sent a letter to the headquarters of ELCA to ask them if they have denounced the church that Jack described above. I’ll let you know if I get any response. I won’t hold my breath awaiting their response.
Wow. This church was exposed on TV this summer by a MO Lutheran Pastor, I think. I don’t remember who he was, though, but he was just as appauled by Her Church. That Pastor had a website, and I sent him an e-mail, to which he responded to me. I saved it, but unfortunately, a virus deleted everything on my computer a month ago, so I’m starting over from scratch. I grew up in the ELCA, so I know what it’s like with its feminist leanings, words to hymns being rewritten to gender friendly, teaching from gender friendly Bibles, etc. It’s gotten worse over the years. Similarly, a Church of God that I visited last year has changed their songs and teaching to gender friendly, as well. People, who follow this stuff, are in a dangerous place. People need to read their Bible and know what it says or become deceived by such churches as Her Church. What’s obviously errorneous to us is wonderful to someone, who is undiscerning and not grounded in God’s Word. Pray for these people!
Eddy,
Counterfeit Christianity is the correct way to describe it. And I recall the name Wayfarers Chapel,, but this is the first time to hear the details.
Bruce, it is pitiful that folks choose an apostate church for their wedding.. but folks want ambiance rather than Truth.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Thanks for that info, Eddy. You brought back memories for me today. Yes, Wayfarers Chapel is every bit the cult. I remember as a child when our family would go to Marineland. We would always stop on the way at Wayfarers to see the beautiful setting and view of the ocean—a favorite place for celebrity weddings. Too bad that a Christ-centered grace-preaching Christian church couldn’t be located in that gorgeous spot.
Dear Jack,
Many people are being deceived by the counterfeit christianity. Your post reminded me of the Wayfarers Chapel in L.A. If you do a google search on “Wayfarers Chapel”, you will find their web site. Both the Wayfarers Chapel and “Her Church” are using God’s name in vain. They both place the cross at the top of their church buildings.
Bruce and John,
After all, it IS San Francisco..
I know very little about the Lutheran oversight of their member churches.. but this group claims they are following the deeper traditions of the Lutheran faith. Maybe they feel obligated to be swallowed up into the prevailing culture of the area.
John brought up a great point to me which I overlooked in my haste to write the article. All of these people need to understand God’s Free Grace — and regardless of lifestyle or preconceived ideas, they are not beyond His Saving Grace. They need to understand that they, like we, are by nature condemned sinners (short of God’s perfection), that the deserved penalty is separation from God in hell for eternity. That God in the Flesh (Jesus Christ) came to earth, gave Himself to die on the Cross to pay that sin penalty and rose from the Grave, proving He is God and capable of saving anyone completely and eternally.
1 (Corinthians 15: 1-5)
There is no one so lost that Christ cannot save them. It is everyone’s choice to believe in Christ or reject Him. Pretending Christ is someone else or does not exist is a deadly choice.
I would love to find some way to share this Good News with that entire group.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Fascinating post, Jack!
Does the ELCA oversight committee (if that even exists) ever step in to stop such blasphemy? Or does anything pretty much go in their churches?
Sorry, I meant I agreee with Jack’s comment.
I agree with Lou regarding worship of good works. This is one of the more obvious counterfeits out there. Their GLBT friends need to hear the true Gospel, which makes salvation available to all people on equal terms – faith alone in Christ alone.
Lou,
Nor had I. But they, like other false churches, worship their good works.. Their site is full of them and a person is not “complete” until she fulfills their idea for her in accord with their risen “Christ-Sophia.” Horribly perverse.
I could not find a reference to a statement of faith nor salvation, only their attempt to re-write God’s Holy Word.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Have to admit, I never heard of this one.