A very dear friend posted a link to an excerpt from a Paul Washer speech. She appreciated it but when I questioned Washer’s doctrine, she sincerely asked me for my understanding and explanation. This is an adaptation of my note to her.
I went to the link and listened to Washer. I found him to be a very appealing and charismatic speaker. But he confirmed my opinion from previous videos that he preaches a false repentance message and very obviously preaches Lordship Salvation. Here is the link: Paul Washer Video
I transcribed these few excerpts from the video, and since I’m 3/4 blind and deaf there may be some slight difference between this and what you hear. I listened to it twice, stopping and starting it, doing the best I could typing with two-fingers. (But I thank the Lord for one almost good eye and two fingers).
Washer started the video by saying: (In Bold Red)
It is impossible to be embraced [???] by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and not to be changed at the very core of your being and it not be manifest to those around you.
He starts out with an un-Scriptural statement. He apparently either ignores or does not understand the two natures (old and new) of the believer and the free will we have to be obedient to the Lord or not. A believer will not necessarily automatically “manifest” that he has been “changed at the very core of his being.”
However, he nailed Billy Graham (not by name though) with his analysis of a false “come down an aisle method” and with psychological manipulation; I agreed with that. But Washer neglected to condemn the Graham “turn from sin” repentance message, but as I listened further it became abundantly clear that he agreed with Graham’s false repentance message.
Washer:
Those who have professed Christ and are living in continuous state of carnality without the least evidence of Holy Spirit convicting them of sin – it is because they are not saved…
Again Washer sets himself up as the Lord and judge, determining whether or not he can see a person is a believer by their actions, even after the person has professed his faith in Jesus Christ. He completely ignores the clear teaching of the carnality of the Corinthian believers, contentious, etc.
“And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.” (1 Corinthians 3:1),
“What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness? 1 Corinthians 3:1
“It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.” 1 Corinthians 4:21-5:1
Washer’s message is essentially preaching the Lordship salvation message of John MacArthur (and others), which is, if a believer does not turn from sin before and after he trusts Christ and does not live the “Christian life,” according to their rules then he cannot be a believer.
Washer says:
The Gospel is to repent of your sins and believe the Gospel.
Not true – God’s Word never says we must “repent of our sins” for salvation. Repent means to change one’s mind — and then we believe/trust Jesus Christ as our Savior, that He died for our sins, paid our debt, rose from the grave and will give us the FREE gift of eternal life!. That is God’s Grace.
Washer says, speaking of becoming a believer:
Evangelists say, it takes only 5 minutes. Washer says, NO my friends, it will take your life.
This is simply the exact Lordship/commitment salvation message, and is absolutely contrary to the message of God’s Grace.
Washer is critical of evangelists who would “share the Gospel in 2 minutes and go for the sale.”
Well, if I only have 2 minutes to share the Gospel, that is exactly what I will do. The Bible does not put a time clock on presentation of the Gospel nor on how short or long a period of time it takes a person to understand the Gospel and trust Christ as Savior. Washer’s statement is ludicrous, ridiculous and wrong.
Washer on evidence of true conversion:
Profession will be continuing on.. Is God a reality in your life? It MUST be obvious (to others) that God is finishing a good work in you. If you have indeed repented of your sins [sic] and believed, the evidence is that you will continue repenting and believe.
What a mixed up Lordship Salvation statement! He is again setting himself up as the judge, by his standards, of who is a believer by demanding the “evidence” of having “repented of your sins.”
God is the only one Who can determine whether a person has trusted in Jesus Christ as their Savior. I must admit I could have heard this phrase incorrectly but I listened twice.. Again, “repenting of your sins” is not a Biblical salvation message.
Most discerning believers in Christ know the Christian life and Obedience is not automatic but are works which we as believers SHOULD do “walk,” “put on (clothe yourself )with the new man”., etc, not for salvation but because we ARE saved. (Ephesians 2:10) The Bible is full of instructions about how believers should behave. IF living the “Christian Life” were automatic, there would be no need for the plethora of Bible instructions detailing what we should do now that we are believers in Jesus Christ. We are told in:
Ephesians 5:15-16
“See then that ye WALK circumspectly (carefully), not as fools, but as wise, REDEEMING the time, because the days are evil.” [Not automatic but something we should do as believers]
Colossians 3:10
“And have PUT ON (clothe yourself) the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him (the new man):” [Not automatic but something we should do as believers]
Now, as believers in Jesus Christ, we accomplish this by Bible Study, fellowship with solid Bible believers and being instant in prayer to the Lord and sharing our faith. If we ignore these things we can easily slip into being carnal believers and as such may incur the Lord’s chastening and discipline. (Hebrews 12:6)
Thanks for indulging me in this… but I have seen so many friends falling for the new age, emergent, Lordship message that I have to shout it out.
Washer is preaching a message that can very easily make folks doubt their salvation. He says, in effect, “You do this and that or you are not saved.” Tragic!!!
//Washer’s message is essentially preaching the Lordship salvation message of John MacArthur (and others), which is, if a believer does not turn from sin before and after he trusts Christ and does not live the “Christian life,” according to their rules then he cannot be a believer.//
Heh, no, from what I’ve heard he’s way worse than MacArthur. MacArthur pretends about half the time that he believes in free salvation. In fact, MacArthur never can seem to figure out for sure which message he actually believes. But Paul Washer is just plain wrong 100% of the time. The man is truly severed from Christ.
Drew,
Great analysis.. as if anyone could be worse than MacArthur..
Mac vacillates between the lie and the truth while Washer apologetically preaches the lie consistently.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Hi Jack & Drew ~
I was wondering when/if someone would finally break the ice (not me…I’m still learning)!
Drew, you said:
Can you elaborate, please? As you may well know, Paul Washer is all over the place, especially held in very high regard by discernment blogs.
Washer’s comment above which says salvation will take your whole life is, at best, a confusing one. Reconciliation to the Father through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ is instantaneous, but sanctification is a life long process, which really boils down to the flesh warring against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. It’s a matter of walking in faith, moment by moment, which I suppose is being interpreted by Washer and LS folks as a continuous choosing “right” over “wrong” (?). But, the problem with this is that so many things appear “right” and yet, may not be the will of God. It takes His Spirit in me to discern “pretty good” from “excellent”. Perhaps many would just say this is a case of semantics.
I wish I had it all figured out, but I don’t.
It is true that salvation takes your whole life. The moment you place your faith in Jesus, Jesus becomes lord of your whole life. And in fact, he is still your lord whether you continue to obey him or not. If I choose to run around robbing people, stealing, fighting, driving drunk, and just generally breaking all the laws of Tennessee, that doesn’t stop Bill Haslam from being my governor. (And he will deal with me as my governor by sending the police to put me in jail.) Likewise, if I mess around morally that doesn’t stop Jesus from being my lord. In the parable of the talents, Jesus is the master of all the servants, not just of the ones who invest the money.
But Paul Washer teaches that you have to make Jesus your master by working yourself into an emotional frenzy and sincerely pledging to stop sinning, and that even then, you aren’t really saved unless you continue your cessation from sin for basically your whole life.
I could be wrong about MacArthur, but just from what I have heard, he isn’t as hardcore of a Lordshipper as Washer. I think he is more of a traditional Calvinist, but that every now and then he just starts preaching commitment-salvation. He did write a book about Lordship Salvation, but that was about 25 years ago and I think he has mellowed out since then.
Hi Pearl,
Great! You have pegged the LS folks and Washer pretty well. You said, “held in very high regard by discernment blogs.” True, but most “discernment” blogs and web sites are one dimensional, focusing on Emergent or Mysticism teachers. While good they seem to ignore and/or promote the LS and Calvinist folks. I will be posting a blog soon on the dilemma of recommending discernment sites or teachers. It is a problem and I am guilty of the error.
Yes, you are exactly right, “Reconciliation to the Father [salvation] through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ is instantaneous, but sanctification is a life long process, which really boils down to the flesh warring against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. It’s a matter of walking in faith, moment by moment,”
Yes, we must understand the two natures of the believer in Christ, the old sin, flesh nature and the new perfect nature given from God. This doctrine is so vital for Christians to grasp, yet ignored by too many teachers!
But herein is the problem with Washer, et al. You said:
which I suppose is being interpreted by Washer and LS folks as a continuous choosing “right” over “wrong” (?). ,
The LS folks imply that if you choose the “wrong” it is based on their opinion and interpretation of “wrong.” Their conclusion, then, is that doing so, you were never saved or you have “fallen from grace,” as they try to condemn others by their version of continuing in “the law” or else!
You accurately said that “It takes His Spirit in me to discern “pretty good” from “excellent”. Perhaps many would just say this is a case of semantics.”
Yes, God’s Holy Spirit guides believers into truth continually, 27/7. (John 16:13a) We read, study, learn and use His Word and grow in Grace to understand how to follow. We are not born into God’s family completely mature… but we should continually:
“… grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. ” 2 Peter 3:18
Pearl, believe me, your writings tell me you have figured out more that 95% of other Christians (that is anecdotal evidence).
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Drew,
MacArthur has not mellowed or changed his stripes. I have written several articles on this Blog about Mac and I and my friend Bruce Bauer have illustrated that fact. In Bruce’s review of Mac’s newest book, “Slave,” Mac digs his LS hole even deeper into declaring that for years Christians and translators of scripture have perpetrated a monstrous coverup. He now declares that every believer in Christ is a slave rather than a child of God. This post received an abundance of comments.. some disagreed but most agreed.
http://www.expreacherman.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/john-macarthurs-new-apostate-book/
Enjoy!
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Well, whether we’re slaves or children doesn’t have all that much to do with soteriology. I personally think we are servants of Christ (and technically also brothers of Christ), whereas we are children of the Father. The Bible seems to use both terms, but in those two different contexts.
“Slave” I think is probably a bad translation. I have noticed that MacArthur tends to support absolutist government (e.g., recently supporting Moumar Ghadaffi), and maybe that is why he likes the word “slave” over “servant.” But I don’t think the Bible condones “slavery,” as most would consider the term. The Old Testament does condone some form of indentured servitude as a punishment (as does our Thirteenth Amendment!), and the New Testament does tolerate slavery somewhat as an existing evil, but certainly does not condone it (see 1 Timothy 1:10).
I don’t like to listen to MacArthur so maybe is just as crazy about soteriology now as he always was. But my mom listens to him sometimes and she has told me that he seems to have backed off the Lordship routine a good bit. By contrast, every clip I ever hear from Washer sounds like a whiny-voiced, emotional plea to stop sinning in order to get to heaven. Paul Washer supports emotionalistic revival in the extreme.
He apparently either ignores or does not understand the two natures (old and new) of the believer and the free will we have to be obedient to the Lord or not.
Jack-
Washer spoke against the existence of carnal Christians and L.S.Chafer, though he didn’t mention Chafer by name, in a video he did a few years ago. It’s on You Tube somewhere under the title “Paul Washer’s Shocking Sermon” or something similar. I am not going to link to it because, well, it’s Washer, so anyone who wants to listen to it can google or search for it on You Tube. But in his talk he said something about 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 not meaning that a Christian can live an ungodly life (I think what he said was that carnal didn’t mean carnal and you have to read the whole book to see what Paul meant by carnal.) and some slights against Dallas Seminary and Chafer, though neither are mentioned by name, and then something about how we’re not supposed to get our theology from the back of Christian T-shirts. And no, I am not making that up.
Anyway, he does not believe the Christian has two natures.
JanH
Actually it’s not a video HE did, it’s a video of him giving a sermon. Technicality.
JanH
Thanks JanH,
Washer has sealed his own false
theologyphilosophy with his on-line messages.It is a shame that so many Christians follow and believe his every word — with no consideration for “thus saith the Lord.”
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
well I like Paul Washer but I have to admit he did make me question my poor husbands salvation because it wasnt radical and dramatic like mine and I was worried .I havn’t watched Mr Washer in a while because of his “YOUR Baby would KiLL you given the opportunity” (or something) message which I found reeeaally out there. Anyway, Im glad I found this site because you are gentle about correcting what you disagree with and put me at ease a bit.But I plan to keep an open mind,read for myself after prayer and check EVERYBODY out! appreciation to you
I am really enjoying your website, it is such a breath of fresh air. I want to share something I heard today. I have been listening to in my opinion, one of the greatest teachers on Grace I have ever heard. He said this today, we are about to see a revolution of the Teaching of the Grace of God in this world. He said he recently spoke at a conference in the far east,where pastors from all over the world where there. He was amazed at the Spirit of Grace these young and older pastors had. In my opinon I believe it is coming in spite of all the Lordship teaching. I have a dear pastor friend who is bound by the lordship teaching. Obey, Obey is his mantra, I pointed out to him the word says Ro 2:4 “it’s the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.”
Also our Lord Jesus used the word “obey” 1 time in all scripture, He used the words “Love, Loving, Loved” 72 times. When a person gets a revelation of the true Grace of God he will live Holier by accident than he ever could on purpose! I urge everyone to check out this 20 min teaching on the true Grace of God, go to the web site click on April 6 2011 teaching or April 5
Link Edited by Admin.
John,
Glad you enjoy our posts.
However the link you gave is to a Charismatic evangelist who believes multiple charismatic doctrines including the false gift of “tongues” and the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” as a second “work of Grace.”
These are false teachings therefore I have deleted the link to the video. We do not advertise Charismatic teaching/teachers on this Blog.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Hello Jack:
This morning Bruce posted a comment at my blog under the current article titled What is Lordship Salvation; And Why Does It Matter? He noted the good discussion you are having here on LS.
I am setting up a hyper-link from my blog to this article so that my readers can access it.
Kind regards,
LM
PS: Hi Jan! JanH is a regular at my blog and has contributed several articles as well.
“He apparently either ignores or does not understand the two natures (old and new) of the believer and the free will we have to be obedient to the Lord or not.”
Exactly right! Here is a sample from JMac
“I believe it is a serious misunderstanding to think of the believer as having both an old and new nature. Believers do not have dual personalities…there is no such thing as an old and new nature in the believer…. Salvation brings about a radical change in the nature of the believer…The old man has ceased to exist.” (Freedom from Sin, pp. 31-33.)
LM
Thanks Lou,
I appreciate your dropping by, commenting and linking to my Blog. I really appreciate our mutual friends Bruce and Jan — with their brilliant discernment. (I also appreciate all of my wonderful discerning friends who read and comment).
A couple of friends who formerly worked for me said they enjoyed meeting you at Jim Scudder Sr’s Grace Conference, Tom Cucuzza and Yankee Arnold. (All three are now Doctors but I knew them way back when they were just Jim, Tom and Yankee, all great men of God by and for His Grace).
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Yes, the books of Corinthians are a strong testimony against the claims of Lordship Salvation. Despite their problems such that Paul had to address them as “of the flesh” (1 Cor 3:1), not once did Paul call their salvation into question. We’re studying 2 Corinthians at church and last week finished chapter 12 last week — 2 Cor 12:21 in particular stands out as an especially blatant passage against the LS idea of saving repentance as requiring a turning from sin.
Hi Lou!
Hi Stephen!
Wow, the gang’s all here!
JanH
Stephen,
Thanks for stopping by. You are absolutely right about 1st Corinthians. One wonders if the LS folks have even read the book much less studied Paul’s exhortation to the Brothers in Christ at Corinth. The two books of Corinthians are excellent examples of the eternal standing we have in Jesus Christ and the disobedient wishy-washy state we can have in our daily lives (which is abhorrent and guaranteed to engender discipline and chastening from the Lord — yet not cancelling our wonderful eternity in Christ). God’s Amazing Grace!
Stephen, please subscribe then come back and visit with us again. Peruse other similar articles using our search bar on the upper right. Lots of posts on “lordship” philosophy.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Jack:
Thanks for the warm welcome and your stand for truth in the face of Lordship’s insidious spread. I think it was three years ago I met Tom and Yankee, good men. I may be at the conference this year for a visit with friends.
Kind regards,
Lou
Thanks Jan, the more the merrier.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
St. Matthew 19:16-30 The law is no longer in the flesh, but in the spirit. It is imprinted in our minds, and God in our heart. Jeremiah 31:31-34 It’s important to know that we’re no longer under the law, but Jesus didn’t come to make the law void, he came to fulfil it so that we can live our lives freely and holy in the law. The law establishes what to do and what not to do. Yes, we’re no longer bound by the law, but by grace…but don’t forget that it’s impossible to live a holy life outside of the law. Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are *not* under the *law*, but under *grace*? *God forbid*.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
The fact that Jesus paid the price imprinted the law in us so that we won’t have to force ourselves to follow it, we will be guided by the Holy Spirit to correction so that we may live a holy life. St. Matthew 5:17 The fact that Jesus paid the price re-connected our severed connection (from Adam and Eve) to the Father through him (Jesus Christ). Isaiah 53:1-12 1 Corin 15:20-22 & 45-49 Romans 6:5-11
I don’t see anything wrong with wanting to follow the scriptures as they have back in the day. Times change, but God never does. Malachi 3:6
Jesus preached the gospel of grace, yeah, we all know that…but Jesus also warned people about hell. Luke 12:4-5 Matthew 10:28
America is so lost in the loving part of God that it’s forgotten that God abhors things that proclaim everything that he’s about. If you love God, wouldn’t you follow his commandments? 2 John 1:6
America has forgotten who the true God is and that he HATES those who practice lawlessness. God does not love us for who we are, but who we are IN HIM. There are many scriptures which defend this statement and knowing what type of person I am, I’m going to want to dig up many if I even begin to describe the truth about this statement. God didn’t come down to let us keep living the way we were, he came to SAVE us. If God really loved sin, would he have destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Would he have killed so many people who practiced lawlessness, witchcraft, idolatry, etc? Has God ever outright killed any of his children unless they outright disobey something he’s spoken to them? God loves his children, and you are not his child if you do not accept Jesus Christ. Plain and simple. You cannot serve two masters. St. Matthew 6:24 If you’re a born again Christian and sin, is it okay to not to repent? God clearly says that there are those who will honor him with words, but their actions speak differently. Isaiah 29:13 Matthew 15:7-9 The bible says to test the spirit. 1 John 4:1-6
If you truly love someone, will you not warn them where they will end up if they do not repent? We all fall short of the glory of God, and if you sin, you repent. Even after you’ve given your life to Christ, if you continue to sin, you continue to repent…until you’re perfect as Jesus was, you continue to repent and pray for deliverance and that you learn from your mistakes. Nobody is made perfect overnight from giving your life to Christ. Whether it’s pride, envy, jealousy, anger, rage, etc. There’s nothing wrong with preaching about continual repentance until you’re made perfect.
I see nothing wrong with Paul’s message except for the fact that it may be too strong for watered down Christians who live in America this day in age. We must go back to the basics and honor the most high God in everything we do, living the life our heavenly Father wants for us. Again, being radical for Christ in the right way is good because he’s preaching the un-watered down truth to kids who NEED to hear the truth! The world is drawing away from God, ignoring the word and the bible states that we should LIVE in it! It’s gotten to the point that Christians are no different from the world and the bible says to be SEPARATE! I’d rather have someone correct me where I’m wrong rather than tell me what I’m doing is okay because THAT IS LOVE. Correction is love because you know where they’re going if they continue to practice sin. Instead of blogging about how we hate how honest some preachers/pastors/evangelists are, why don’t we all meditate on the word and live the life we’re supposed to in Christ? The life God wants for us, not the life we want for ourselves? Are we not only here for a season, to preach the gospel? This is not our home, we’re here for a short time so proclaim the kingdom of God while it’s at hand. Know the truth, and preach the truth and don’t spend so much time discrediting a man who only wants to further our heavenly Father’s kingdom. I’d understand where the animosity is coming from if he wasn’t quoting scriptures, but he is! He isn’t lying! Again, we all sin and make mistakes unless we’re made perfect in Christ. What matters is what you will do AFTER you’ve sinned and what you will do to stop it.
God bless you all and I went on rambling a little because it’s a bad habit lol. I hope maybe through the gospel I may have opened someone’s eyes, even a little. I’m no scholar and I’m not proclaiming to be roiling in the Holy Spirit yet, but I’m trying and that’s what God is looking for…those who want to further his kingdom and live a life for him, not for ourselves. Admitting you’re a sinner even after you’re saved when you sin is what God is looking for. We all fall short of the glory of God, but it’s by grace we are saved.
*America is so lost in the loving part of God that it’s forgotten that God abhors things that proclaim everything that -isn’t Holy-.* Sorry for that misinterpretation, it’s very late and I am tired. God bless
1 John 1:6-10 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another,
and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us
from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Malik:
Thanks for stopping by.
As you said at the end of your long entry, you were rambling quite a bit and pretty much all over the map theologically and topically. It all had a Calvinist/LS flavor to it. Perhaps you are not a full-blown Lordship Salvation guy, however.
Anyway, let’s just look at a brief quote from everything you said and deal with that. You said,
“We must go back to the basics and honor the most high God in everything we do, living the life our heavenly Father wants for us. Again, being radical for Christ in the right way is good because he’s preaching the un-watered down truth to kids who NEED to hear the truth! The world is drawing away from God, ignoring the word and the bible states that we should LIVE in it! It’s gotten to the point that Christians are no different from the world and the bible says to be SEPARATE!”
First, see any of Jack’s many blogs on Francis Chan and you will see how “radical” Lordship Salvation teaching has ruined many lives (see, in particular: http://expreacherman.wordpress.com/2011/01/05/grace-under-fire-the-fallout-of-lordship-faith-teaching/
Second, please focus on one word in your paragraph and then you may begin to understand what this blog site is all about. The word is, “SHOULD.”
Ephesians 2:10 says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Yes, we will all agree that true believers should serve the Lord faithfully—it is the right and biblical thing to do. But IF a believer does not live a life characterized by obedience and faithfulness to God, God will not kick him out of the kingdom. Lordship Faith teachers like Washer, MacArthur, Chan, Piper, et. al. would declare such a believer as, “never having been saved to begin with.” These men have no right to make such a judgmentally condemning proclamation. Only God truly knows the heart. Listen to a response that I gave on another discussion site to someone who wrote a similar treatise as yours:
Briefly, and I will operate under the assumption that your motives are honorable, here is a nutshell response:
Yes, of course there is an instaneous transformation of a person’s life when he comes to salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Eph. 2:8-9). 2 Cor. 5:17 says, “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” And, he now has the Spirit of Christ living right inside of him!
Now, if you are really asking, “Mustn’t there necessarily be an array of good works and other noticeably visible changes to PROVE one’s salvation?” the answer is NO. Are good works a good thing and pleasing to God? Absolutely! Are good works always an indication of true belief in Christ? Not necessarily. Here are four camps in which a person might be categorized:
1. A true believer in Christ who lives for the Lord and produces fruit (pleasing to God and the proper way for a Christian to live).
2. A true believer in Christ who produces little or no fruit—Rom. 4:5 (Lot; the saved thief on the cross; Samson; the Church at Corinth; the Church at Laodicea, for a few examples). [Don't try to use James 2 as a retort: James was unmistakably writing to believers, emphasizing the quality of true belief, not the reality of belief.]
3. An unbeliver who does “good” works. Do they save him? NO. Examples abound, particularly in the liberal Hollywood community. Typical “good” causes include: protecting the environment; feeding the hungry; rescuing the whales; drilling wells in Africa; animal rights advocacy; Habitat for Humanity. Some of these are fine causes, but none of them saves the soul.
4. An unbeliever who does no good works.
So we see that good works are not a good indicator of true belief in Christ.
Pastor Jack put it so well in his blog on MacArthur and Lordship Salvation (see: http://expreacherman.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/john-macarthur-lordship-salvation/ ): “MacArthur’s Lordship salvation is not Biblical. To be sure of our salvation we need not look at our fruit—we believe in Christ and then look at the verse, I John 5:13. Our proof of our salvation is in Scripture not in our behavior or our fruit.”
Bruce, thanks for a great detail answer to Malik.
Malik, I pray you will consider what Bruce wrote and trust Jesus Christ alone as your Savior, realizing that good works are desired in every believer but certainly are NOT an indicator or determining factor for salvation as the LS preachers proclaim.
Paul Washer, JMac, Chan, Piper, et al are preaching a false message and according to Scripture, not just their message but they are accursed.
Galatians 1:8-9
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”
This also answers your several comments on other posts.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
so do the words…(which I take it you subscribe to…”once saved…always saved”) show up in scripture.
Or is it an inference without any regard to the warnings which should serve to alert someone who has mouthed the “prayer”?
Alan,
Thanks for dropping in. I am not sure of your point but I will try to answer.
John 10:28 illustrates just one of many promises, Jesus said:
And I give unto them eternal life;
That is “once saved.”
and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
That is Jesus’ promise of “always saved.” There are many, many more.
Your last paragraph I do not understand.
What “inference, warnings, what alert and what “mouthed prayer”? Please clarify what you mean.
What do you think one must do to be eternally saved?
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Alan,
Regarding your question, search if you like, but you will not find one instance in which Jack or I stated that, in your words, “mouthing a prayer,” equalled salvation. The Bible declares the way of salvation quite clearly in Acts 16:31: “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” Other similarly perspicuous texts on salvation include, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3:16-18, John 6:28-29, 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 (the gospel) and Titus 3:4-7.
No, Alan, mouthing a formulaic prayer, walking an aisle, raising a hand, being baptized, joining a church, coming forward, making a public statement of commitment or promising to turn from sins have NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION. The Bible says that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). Now, once we are ALREADY SAVED eternally, then by all means, serve God wholeheartedly because it is the right, proper and Biblical response to God for his gracious gift of eternal life (Ephesians 2:10 says that it is what we “should” do). By the way, when God gives us eternal life it is by definition eternal, not temporal!
Bruce
Thank you for your excellent articles! I especially appreciated the article on Paul Washer.
Some time back, a friend emailed me one of his videos praising it highly. I was appalled. I couldn’t understand how anyone could buy into what he was saying.
After some research, I found someone saying he was preaching Lordship Salvation.
I’d never heard of it before so I started studying it. That led me into studying Calvinism. Wow, what a sad and depressing theology.
I was shocked at how many well known men believe in this. What a shame.
As for my friend, she bought into what Paul Washer was saying, hook, line and sinker. And she became extremely angry that I would question anything that he was saying, which really shocked me. I thought we were exploring truth. Guess not.
Sharon
Sharon,
Thanks for allowing me to post your email as a comment. We appreciate your discernment and pray you will visit with us again.
Yes, Washer is a purveyor of evil doctrine. We will pray for your friend to see the Truth.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
The more I have read of these comments, the more it has occurred to me how critical discernment is and how much the enemy delights in error. Errors need errors to sustain themselves.
Jan H said (regarding Washer)
“He apparently either ignores or does not understand the two natures (old and new) of the believer and the free will we have to be obedient to the Lord or not.”
If someone does not understand the two natures of the believer, he will make one or all of the following errors:
1. He will evaluate (judge) other professing believers by their behavior
2. He will evaluate (judge) himself based on his behavior
3. He will test himself to determine if he is in the faith based on his behavior
4. Any assurance he has of salvation will be based on his own quantification standards, rather than on the imputed perferction of Jesus Christ
5. He would have to change his requirements for salvation as his behavior changes, or he would have to drift in and out of assurance
6. He would have to change his opinion (judgements) as to the salvation status of others, based on their changes in behavior
7. He may not be able to effectively witness to someone, because his testimony would point to behavioral changes
8. He would have to disregard the encouragements, exhortations, rebukes and warnings in the Epistles as being unnecessary
9. He may not understand the differences between salvation and rewards
10. If he is disappointed in his behavior, he may become despondent
John,
Your analysis is on target.
Looking at your details and their beliefs, one would wonder if/when/how a Lordship “salvation” proponent could EVER have any assurance of their salvation since any “hope” they have is based on their works/behavior.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Hi John,
Excellent analysis of many of the harmful aspects/results of Lordship Faith teaching. Regarding the issue of assurance of salvation, I once made the comment to a pastor that Lordship Faith a.k.a. Lordship Salvation teaching literally destroys assurance of faith for many individuals. His reply was something along these lines, “Well, when someone comes to me having doubts of salvation, I counsel them to go into another quiet room, think about your life and standing, pray to God and basically iron it all out with him.” I think that this approach is not helpful [it may even cause more harm] because such an individual is already suffering from an unhealthy over-introspection. So the pastor is counseling her to heap more unhealthy inward focus on top of her existing introspection. I would, instead, counsel the person to think back in her life to a time when she trusted Christ Jesus alone by grace through faith for salvation. If she can confidently point to such a time or event, then I would counsel her to stand firm in her faith in Christ based, not upon her own feelings which may change like the wind, but rather upon the finished work of Christ on the cross and upon His promises in Scripture (John 10:27-30, et al.).
To read more about the deleterious fallout of Lordship Salvation teaching and about how it leads to unhealthy introspection, see the following article:
http://www.freegracealliance.com/pdf/DRIVEN_byB_Bauer.pdf
Bruce
Thanks Bruce! I think that doubt is the child of LS/Calvinism and other false doctrine. For those who are not saved, Satan wants them to think that something other than faith in Christ is required for salvation. He gets lots of help from the churches. For those who are saved, Satan wants to confuse them regarding the Gospel and the sole basis for their salvation. Again, he gets lots of help from the churches. Anytime one looks to himself and his lifestyle for assurance of salvation, he is looking in the wrong place.
Bruce, I just re-read your article “Driven”. I think it is right on target and points out how destructive LS is. I know, from personal experience, that LS distracts the unsaved from trusting in Christ.
Paul Washer said “The Gospel is to repent of your sins and believe the Gospel. ”
That doesn’t even make any sense. If we translate this into every day language that he implies, then the good news is to stop sinning and believe the good news.
He never actually says what the good news is… I haven’t heard the sermon for years and don’t really want to trigger flashbacks to my legalistic depression so I’m not going to go watch it again.
Isn’t the good news that Jesus died for sinners, forgave us our sin, that we died with Him, and that He lives in us and through us?
If I believe that good news, then obviously I have repented. Unbelievers don’t believe that. Believers do. Whether or not I prayed a prayer is inconsequential. Do I believe that Jesus died for me? Absolutely.
You got it, Luke. I would only add (and I’m sure you know, but for the sake of others reading who might not, I say this [just a couple of weeks ago, I also neglected to include essential truths]) that for a sinner to be saved, a complete understanding of who Jesus is (God in the flesh); what He did (laid down His life to take all my sins upon Himself, and that by His being sinless, He was able to satisfy the wrath of God by paying the entire world’s debt in full by shedding His blood and dying on that cross); and lastly, but most importantly, that He lives (God the Father raised Him from the dead on the third day) must all be believed for salvation.
I repeat your perfect response: Do I believe? Absolutely.
Luke,
Welcome
Yes you seem to have the Gospel of Free Grace correctly. I am sorry you had to endure the depression of thinking you had to change your behavior rather than simply changing your mind in order for you to make that decision to trust Jesus Christ as your Savior.
That IS freedom in Jesus Christ!!!
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Luke, good choice not to intentionally re-expose yourself to the LS lie by going back and watching it (the Washer sermon). I am exposed to enough of the LS nonsense day-to-day, without having to load up on it intentionally. That is why it is critical to stay away from churches that twist the Gospel or are vague about the meaning of words like repentance.
John:
That is the best advice to give any believer who may be getting interested in a false doctrine. Unfortunately many of these aberrant teachings like LS are couched in orthodox terms, but the twisted definition is not readily apparent.
The Word of God instructs the believer in how to protect himself from errors. Romans 16:17-18.
Lou
Pearl, thanks for your good advice. We are too often neglectful in our statement of the Gospel.
Thanks John and Lou,
Good advice for Luke.. We all need to be strengthened daily by God’s Word.
Lou’s Bible passage is a good one:
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple [unsuspecting]. Romans 16:17-18
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
For some reason, I’m getting 4 or 5 duplicates of new posts. I enjoy getting posts from you but 1 at a time is sufficient. I must have subscribed more than once by accident…?
Please remedy. Thanks, Sharon Nordstrom
Sharon,
Sorry you are having problems — I am not aware that we are able to un-subscribe you.. I will look into it. I believe you must do that yourself from the email comment you receive – for each email address you may have used.. and then re-subscribe just once under one email address.
Thanks for being a friend and subscriber.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Pingback: Accursed or Innocent? Lordship “Salvation” Teachers. | Notes From A Retired Preacher
This is Paul’s story of conversion:
Link removed by administrator
Note that he himself was saved by a “cheap grace” quickie Gospel presentation.
Greetings Intersectionvictoria!
Thank you very much for joining our discussion today. The site administrators have made the decision that there would be no more links allowed to Paul Washer videos, other than the initial link demonstrating Washer’s connection to Lordship Salvation teaching. Readers are certainly free to search out his materials through Google, if they wish.
Please join us again soon.
I am appalled by the person who compiled this page, not only does she not know what she is talking about, but she does not know Scripture; “ Nowhere does the Bible say we have to repent” ??? WHAT? There why more than 19 Scriptures on repentance!!! Same on all of you who says Judge not lest you be judge, but the whole page is about judging Paul Washer, be VERY CARFUL of COMMITNG the INPARDENOBOL SIN, by saying something is not of GOD WHEN IT IS!!!!
It took all of ten seconds to see that Washer is a man with serious problems of carnal anger and rage. He talks about fruit but cannot see his own, and because he is a legalist (that is what lordship salvation is) he will lie to himself and call his fleshly fury righteous anger. He speaks repentance but in ungodly rage. This misrepresents the character of God. It is clear that Washer never knew the Lord so is either not a Christian or is carnal – that he denies that a Christian can be carnal is even more dangerous, for he is trapped by this. It is clear he seeks to terrify people as he is terrified. but this drives people from Christ, thus he will pay a terrible price because despite his own rhetoric he refuses to repent, and even cannot.
Repentance is a gift of grace, and the Lord the Spirit, as my counsellor, is leading me thereupon. Knowing this I see that Washer is counterfeit, and this will only lead to a rejection of the proper repentance that is a gift of a loving and patient Father.
My own conversion was a Damascus road encounter, but I fell away from Christ into legalism, and madness and despair was my life for years thereafter. Washer was not around when this happened, but his kind of preaching is what caused it.
Washer is also of the will of the flesh. The only kind of response that can be engendered by his screaming and ranting is fearful frenzy. Repentance is never produced by this, neither obedience, faith nor discipleship. But Washer et al are deadly dangerous as he sets himself up as the antidote to the gross heresies of the emergent church or the charismatic abuses of a Benny Hinn. But in fact both are wrong, yet Washer is more dangerous for he distorts biblical doctrine at more crucial points, namely repentance.
Even if one agreed with his teaching, his methods are only counterfeit. Like the Pharisees, placing colossal burdens on people, making no genuine attempt to enter the Kingdom and stopping others from doing so, though I no longer fear him; I fear for him.
Elanie,
Thanks for commenting — but surely you did not read or understand the article. Note: the phrase “Repent of sins” for salvation is NOT in God’s Word (ref KJV Bible).
Repentance is NOT a turning, change of life but a simple mind change about the object in discussion. We have written several articles about Repentance, the false and true. Search our web site. (Right side-bar)
Please read the Washer article without prejudice and understand exactly what we have discovered about Washer. Praying for you.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Steve,
Welcome.
You have analyzed Washer quite well, whether he is honestly mistaken or deliberately preaching error, only he and the Lord know for sure. But we warn.
Nonetheless, error is error and we intend to expose it and preach salvation by Grace alone through faith alone in the Risen Savior, Jesus Christ alone. No good works needed to prove our faith to the Lord. However, as so many scriptures tell us, every believer SHOULD walk in good works — not to be or stay saved but because we ARE saved.
Ephesians 2:8-10
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Jack, Thanks for the welcome. I only heard of Paul Washer about a year ago, and on the net. But I myself have had an extremely long battle with total legalism; and I owe the fact that I have not died insane (that is how extreme it was) to the counsel of the Holy Spirit. He has been far kinder and more patient than any one else I have ever met and certainly vastly beyond what I could ever expect. I thank God that my freedom was sufficiently realised at that time that I was able to reject Washer on a first hearing, otherwise, had he been around in the public eye when I was converted (about the same time as he was for we are about the same age and were both converted at university) I would have surely despaired and died. I mean this literally. The agony was that total.
AS for Lordship Salvation, my awareness of sin is such that I can only say that I can submit to the Lordship of Christ ONLY by being saved from each instance of my rebellion by free grace, that is to say by the personal intervention of the Holy Spirit of Christ my Saviour, as I admit said rebellion to Him and be led to repent of it. But LS is not saying this. As such it is a doctrine of despair, and believe me, I have had many years of despair.
Hello Steve!
Thank you for sharing your testimony with us today. We rejoice with you that the Lord rescued you from the potential grips of Lordship Salvation teaching by his grace. And we rejoice that he has led you by his Spirit to live a life characterized by confident assurance, rather than living a life of doubt, dread and fear, the latter being so common to those who have fallen prey to Lordship Salvation teaching.
Please check out the many articles we have here. I think that you will find them enlightening.
Blessings,
Bruce
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
This seems pretty clear to me.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of REPENTANCE FROM DEAD WORKS and of faith toward
God,
This one is pretty clear too-
CLEAR AS WELL
GALATIANS 3:23-27 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. (24) Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (25) But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (26) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Hulon,
Welcome to our ministry on the web.
You are right — Scripture is clear in context — that is not always true with man.
Saved by Grace through Faith, live and be disciplined by Grace.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
My prayer is that people really get to know GOD, He is not some mongrel who beats newborn babes for messing up, babes in Christ are just like newborn humans, they need food and protection from their Parent to survive and they must be fed as they cannot feed themselves and generally baby Christians do as our babies do they eat and poop and all we do need to do is clean them up and love on them as they grow. They eventually learn to sit up, then crawl, then try to stand and more times than not they fall when they try to stand, do we beat our babies for trying to stand? Heavens no we encourage them to keep trying until one day they take their first steps and we rejoice when they do. Then while taking those first steps the always stumble and fall, do we then beat the snot our of them for trying to walk? No we pick them up, dust them off and say “lets try this again” and then in no time they are walking under sturdy legs and the next thing we know they are running. Our Father is the same way with us, where do we think we got that pattern from, everything is from HIM. 1 Corinthians 14:1 is meant for the church as a whole not just a few, we should be a people of encouragement, exhortation, and comfort as verse three says. Pursue love, which is GOD since HE is love, desire spiritual gifts especially that you may prophesy. Just think of going into a church that actually was like this when you walked in all they did was love you and encourage you to pursue Christ and never let the stumbles and struggles in life deter you from doing so, just keep going after HIM.
Deuteronomy 1:30-31 The LORD your God, who goes before you, He will fight for you, according to all He did for you in Egypt before your eyes, (31) and in the wilderness where you saw how the LORD your God carried you, as a man carries his son, in all the way that you went until you came to this place.’
Hulon,
Thanks. Yes — and my prayer is that the unsaved will understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ and make the decision to trust/believe in Jesus as Savior — so that they may grow in the knowledge of Christ and God the Father.
2 Peter 3:18
2 Peter 1:2
You are right, the Lord treats believers in Jesus Christ as His children — because we are.
Galatians 3:26
It is tragedy that some folks, ignorant believers and searching unbelievers strain to follow such false teachers as Washer, Francis Chan, John MacArthur, Rick Warren and too many more. The Christian life by God’s Grace is a blessing to all believers.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Yes always praying for the lost.
Numbers 6:24-26
I have read most of the comments on this page and I think I am in agreement with many, but are you saying that repentance is not needed for salvation? It seems very evident throughout Scripture that Godly repentance is needed (Acts 20:21; 26:20; Mk. 1:14-15; II Cor. 7:9-10; Mt. 9:13; Acts 11:18; etc.) not a turning from sin, per se, but a clinging to God & faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. I also saw the comments about those who were saved in Scripture, but did not exactly live “godly lives” [Samson, Lot, Corinthian church] but I see a God that punished or was at work in their sinful lives. I agree we cannot judge others, but there ought to be as Romans 6:22 says “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” Now that the Holy Spirit lives within you, shouldn’t you have new desires? Maybe I’m reading more into this than I should, but even Christ Himself, the apostles, & the early church were preaching repentance & faith Lk. 24:47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Thanks for your input!
Mike
Mike,
Welcome, we are happy you stopped by.
Yes, repentance is necessary for salvation but it must be explained properly.. It is a change of mind — not a change of actions or behavior. It is vitally important that we make that clear when we use the word “repent.”
We have a lot of discussions on our web site about the wrong and right interpretation of the word “repent.”
Here is a note from one our regular, astute commenters John, quoting Dr. Tom Cucuzza, one of my former assistant Pastors many years ago:
http://expreacherman.com/2012/05/25/the-terrible-legacy-of-lordship-salvation/#comment-13321
Excerpt: (Please read the entire comment):
Please feel free to comment further.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Greetings Pastor Mike! I appreciate your church’s commitment to getting the gospel to the lost.
Your question is a good one and it has been discussed at length on this site. Look back a couple of days (July 2) to the comments section on the far right of the screen and you will be able to see the complete listing of Jack’s apt citation of what commenter John wrote and quoted on the subject. What John said is so well stated and complete on the subject of repentance and eternal security, I won’t try to add anything myself. I do recommend, however, that you read Charles Ryrie’s “So Great Salvation,” (1989, 1997, Chicago: Moody Press), which has several pages devoted to the subject of repentance (pp. 85-91).
Blessings on your ministry,
Bruce
Hebrews 6:1 says a foundational doctrine of “repentance from dead works” in other words “us trying to make ourselves righteous by keeping the law” which in its base state is “PRIDE” or an attitude of not needing God or arrogance. He resists the proud and it is the first sin which got Lucifer/king of Tyre cast down. Pride is the root of all sin, satisfying what we want instead of what God wants and it is only by the blood of Jesus that we can have our mind cleansed of this evil mentality (Heb. 9:14). Repent of our prideful ways and humble ourselves and He will give us grace, refuse and we will be resisted (James 4:6). It is only by the blood of Jesus that we will ever be righteous. Pride is our tree and it’s fruit is sin, but by the blood of Jesus we become grafted into the tree of life that bears the fruit of the Spirit (Pro. 11:30). Without repenting and hating the pride in ourselves we can in no way have the fear of the Lord since that in itself is “to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.” (Pro. 8:13)
Jeremiah 13:15 Hear and give ear: Do not be proud, For the LORD has spoken.
Micah 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?
Hello Hulon; thanks for joining our discussion site today.
Thank you for the Scriptures which call for humble, non-prideful Christian living. All fine Bible texts. I am puzzled, however, at your citation of these verses in relation to this site and/or this particular discussion post. Are you simply giving a generalized warning to all Christians to live humble lives? If so, fine! Is your intent to speak out against the smugness and arrogance of many or most of the teachers of Lordship Salvation? Or are your comments directed at the administrators or commenters on this site? Something else?
Please clarify and thanks in advance.
In Christ,
Bruce
Was addressing the repentance part but it applies to all of mankind, even Paul was given his thorn in the flesh because an abundance of revelations. Hebrews 6:1 is clear on repentance being from dead works or turning toward God for salvation instead of trying to keep the law. Pride is the root of all sin, I believe that all sin is a symptom of our will over God’s will, the very same sin of pride that caused satan’s fall. Anyone is susceptible to pride just take Paul as an example one of the greatest generals for Christ of all time, we must continually examine ourselves with honesty and keep ourselves humble before the Lord as to not lose our witness and this can only be done by keeping our focus on Jesus and loving others as He loved, it is by this that all will know that we are His disciples if we have love for one another. Because it doesn’t matter how many articles we have written or how many degrees we have from seminary if we don’t have love we are nothing!
God Bless Numbers 6:24-26
Thanks for the blessing.
Dead works are certainly something that must be repented of in order to accept Christ. A more complete list includes:
1. A flawed view of God, such as “there is more than one God” (Acts 17:29-31; 1st Thessalonians 1:9)
2. A disbelief that Jesus is God (John 8:24; 11:25-27)
3. A belief that one is not under God’s judgment – my religion or relative good works will save me (Matthew 3:5-9; Luke 13:1-5)
4. A belief that Jesus’ sacrifice was not sufficient – that religious ritual will help me or that I can lose my salvation through sin (Hebrews 6:1; Hebrews 9:9-14)
5. A belief that salvation is not a free gift – I have to do some good work (baptism, public confession of Christ, ask for salvation), obligate myself to do some good work (repent from my sins, commit my life to Christ, put Christ on the throne of my life, submit to God’s will for my life, change allegiance to God’s team. give my heart to Jesus), or persevere in good works to be saved (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:4-5; Romans 4:14, Galatians 2:21; Galatians 3:10-14)
As far back as I can remember, I believed in one God, that Jesus was the Son of God, and that Jesus died for my sins and was raised from the dead.
But, I did not believe in Grace. I think that many people “come to Christ” or are “led to the Lord” under false pretenses that taint Grace with works. In my case it was “repent of my sins” and “commit my life to Christ” as part of the “salvation package.” Believing in Christ plus my good intentions was disbelieving in Christ.
I like this quote from Chafer:
“The unsaved who come under this divine influence are illuminated – given a clear understanding of but one sin, namely, ‘they believe not on Me.’”
Are you saying that Jesus isn’t God or that He is God?(John 10:30)
Also are you saying you don’t have to confess Jesus Christ as Lord?(Matt. 10:32, Romans 10:9) Because no one can do that except by the Holy Spirit
Confession and belief must happen in order to have the free gift you must receive it in faith by confessing and believing that He is true.YOU CAN’T EVEN DO THE ABOVE UNLESS YOU FIRST REPENT AND THIS IS ONLY BY THE DOING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Romans 10:9-10 (9) that IF YOU CONFESS with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED. (10) For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.(EMPHASIS ADDED)
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PROFESSING AND CONFESSING
pro·fess
[pruh-fes] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to lay claim to, OFTEN INSINCERELY; PRETEND TO: He professed extreme regret.
con·fess
[kuhn-fes] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to acknowledge or avow (a fault, crime, misdeed, weakness, etc.) by way of revelation.
2.
to own or admit as true: I must confess that I haven’t read the book.
3.
to declare or acknowledge (one’s sins), especially to God or a priest in order to obtain absolution.
4.
(of a priest) to hear the confession of (a person).
5.
to acknowledge one’s belief or faith in; declare adherence to.
EXPAND
verb (used without object)
7.
to make confession; plead guilty; own: to confess to a crime.
8.
to make confession of sins, especially to a priest.
9.
(of a priest) to hear confession.
Interesting that this was in my devotional for today
July 5
Knowing Our Need
If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well.
–Mark 5:28
Scripture reading: Mark 5:25-6:6 (25) Now a certain woman had a flow of blood for twelve years, (26) and had suffered many things from many physicians. She had spent all that she had and was no better, but rather grew worse. (27) When she heard about Jesus, she came behind Him in the crowd and touched His garment. (28) For she said, “If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well.” (29) Immediately the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the affliction. (30) And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, “Who touched My clothes?” (31) But His disciples said to Him, “You see the multitude thronging You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’ “(32) And He looked around to see her who had done this thing. (33) But the woman, fearing and trembling, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell down before Him and told Him the whole truth. (34) And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your affliction.” (35) While He was still speaking, some came from the ruler of the synagogue’s house who said, “Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the Teacher any further?” (36) As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, He said to the ruler of the synagogue, “Do not be afraid; only believe.” (37) And He permitted no one to follow Him except Peter, James, and John the brother of James. (38) Then He came to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and saw a tumult and those who wept and wailed loudly. (39) When He came in, He said to them, “Why make this commotion and weep? The child is not dead, but sleeping.” (40) And they ridiculed Him. But when He had put them all outside, He took the father and the mother of the child, and those who were with Him, and entered where the child was lying. (41) Then He took the child by the hand, and said to her, “Talitha, cumi,” which is translated, “Little girl, I say to you, arise.” (42) Immediately the girl arose and walked, for she was twelve years of age. And they were overcome with great amazement. (43) But He commanded them strictly that no one should know it, and said that something should be given her to eat. 6:1 Then He went out from there and came to His own country, and His disciples followed Him. (2) And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue. And many hearing Him were astonished, saying, “Where did this Man get these things? And what wisdom is this which is given to Him, that such mighty works are performed by His hands! (3) Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” So they were offended at Him. (4) But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house.” (5) Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. (6) And He marveled because of their unbelief. Then He went about the villages in a circuit, teaching.
What a privilege to care for the flock of God, to be used by God to encourage the people, to help stand against the many trials that affect the needy. What a holy calling! We each have our own work, and we must do it, so that boldness may be ours in the day of the Master’s appearing, and so that no man can take our crowns (Rev. 3:11). Since the Lord is always encouraging us, we have encouragement for others. We must have a willingness, a ready mind, a yielding to the mind of the Spirit. There is no place for the child of God in God’s great plan except in humility.
God can never do all He wants to do, all that He came to do through the Word, until He gets us to a place where He can trust us, and where we are in abiding fellowship with Him in His great plan for the world’s redemption. We have this truth illustrated in the life of Jacob. It took God twenty-one years to bring Jacob to the place of humility, contrition of heart, and brokenness of spirit. God even gave him power to wrestle with strength, and Jacob said, “I think I can manage after all,” until God touched his thigh, making him know that he was mortal and that he was dealing with immortality. As long as we think we can save ourselves, we will try to do it.
In Mark 5:25-34, we have the story of the woman who had suffered many things from many physicians and had spent all that she had. She was no better but rather grew worse. She said, “If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well.” She came to know her need. It is when we are empty and undone, when we come to God in our nothingness and helplessness, that He picks us up.
Thought for today: Our full cupboard is often our greatest hindrance.
P.S. Remember that the garment He gives us when we come to Him is His robe of righteousness, touch you some of that!
John wrote: “As far back as I can remember, I believed in one God, that Jesus was the Son of God, and that Jesus died for my sins and was raised from the dead. But, I did not believe in Grace. I think that many people “come to Christ” or are “led to the Lord” under false pretenses that taint Grace with works. In my case it was “repent of my sins” and “commit my life to Christ” as part of the “salvation package.” Believing in Christ plus my good intentions was disbelieving in Christ.”
This is such a good point. Because, all churches that claim to be Christian, believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose again. The problem is the disconnect between Him dying for our sins and resurrecting, and the acquisition of eternal life.
And that disconnect is filled in with “stuff” (living well enough, abiding well enough, avoiding sin well enough, doing works, etc., etc.).
So since you have to, according to them, go through the “stuff” to get to Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection, then Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection would do no good at all for you, if you didn’t succeed with the “stuff”.
And that was also my problem for some time. I was not realizing that Jesus is the Door. I, rather, had to get to the Door.
So I thank the Lord Jesus for showing me the true meaning of grace, that we believe in Jesus, and by His grace, we are saved.
Here’s a perfect example of the horrible “stuff” standing in the way of the cross of Jesus Christ:
Quoted from Greg Laurie on “A New Beginnning” radio:
Greg Laurie says: “What a heartbreak it would be to live an ‘almost’ Christian life, then ‘almost’ get into heaven.”
That’s the kind of stuff I’m talking about. What a horrible false gospel that is that Greg Laurie taught. It sounds like catholicism, not the Bible.
Salvation is a free gift of God’s grace, received by faith alone in Christ alone. As adopted children of God, we can never lose salvation (justification). But, we can gain and lose rewards based on Spirit-filled versus carnal living.
Paul was never concerned about losing his salvation, but was almost paranoid about being a “castaway” and not receiving the full inheritance of rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Hence, free grace believers do not make light of sin (or minimize the importance of godly living), but in my view correctly teach that the Bible distinguishes between entering the Kingdom (gift of eternal life) and inheriting the Kingdom (rewards based on faithful service).
Lordship salvation people (typically Calvinists and Arminians) generally muddy the water on these issues and thereby rob many followers of Christ of the assurance of entering the kingdom and being heaven bound.
Matt, you might be interested in the attached article from Dennis Rokser:
http://duluthbible.org/files/Publications/Grace%20Family%20Journal/GFJ%202009%20PDF/GFJ%202009%2004%20Winter/GFJ%202009%2004%20Inheriting%20The%20Kingdom%2000%20Rokser%20D.pdf
Hello again Hulon,
To answer your questions briefly,
No one here is saying that Jesus Christ is not God. Lordship means that he IS GOD! Where LS teaching goes astray is in calling for people to MAKE Jesus the Lord of their lives. We do not MAKE Jesus anything! He IS Lord, meaning God, of the universe, Lord of creation, Lord of redemption, Lord of ALL, in spite of any puny declaration that we might make. At the point that we trust in Christ Jesus alone by grace alone through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) we are confessing him, from that moment on, to be the Lord God of our lives.
Regarding the subject of repentance, I will defer to a quotation from one of our regular learned contributors to this site, John, who posted the following on another discussion:
1. From “What We Believe” (Northland Bible Baptist Church)
“Repent (metanoeo) means a change of mind. Repentance in salvation means a change of mind from any idea of religion that man may have and to accept God’s way of salvation. Repentance does not in any sense include a demand for a change of conduct before or after salvation. Matthew 21:32, Acts 20:21, 2 Corinthians 7:8-10, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:8, John 3:16-18, Gal 3:10-12, Acts 16:25-31, Rom 11:29.
One of the counterfeits Satan is using today is the misuse of the word “repent”. To insist upon repentance that in any sense includes a demand for a change of conduct either toward God or man is to add an element of works or human merit to faith. Penance is payment for sin. Penitence is sorrow for sin. Works add something of self in turning from sin. But repent (metanoeo) means a change of mind. Nowhere does Scripture use the phrase “repent of sin” to be saved.”
2. From Clear Gospel Campaign:
“WHAT SAVING REPENTANCE IS NOT:
1. Saving repentance is not being sorry for your sins.
2. Saving repentance is not turning from your sins or reforming your life.
3. Saving repentance is not the willingness to turn your life over to God so that He can direct your path.
Saving repentance has absolutely nothing to do with regretting your sins or resolving to turn from them. God is willing to save you just the way you are. The Bible says:
While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
WHAT SAVING REPENTANCE IS:
The principle word for “repentance” is from the Greek noun “metanoia,” and the Greek verb “metanoeo.” Metanoia simply means “a change of mind.” When used in the context of eternal salvation, repentance is a change of mind about Jesus Christ, and His eternal divinity, His atoning death, His victorious resurrection, and His offer of eternal salvation by faith alone, apart from the works of the law. On page 19 of The Gospel Booklet, the content of saving faith is summarized as follows:
I. Man’s Need:
i) Man is sinful, and his sins separate him from a Holy God.
II. Salvation:
i) God will declare a lost sinner “Not Guilty” of all his sins, past, present, and future; and
ii) God offers a perishing man the gift of eternal life.
III. The Requirement:
i) Faith
III (a) The Object of Saving Faith:
Jesus Christ.
III (b) (The content of Saving Faith):
i) That Jesus is the eternal creator God;
ii) That Jesus death paid in full for our sins;
iii) That Jesus rose again from the dead; and
iv) That Jesus offer of salvation is a gift apart from any work of man.
If someone denies, or does not understand his need for salvation, he must repent. He must recognize his lost condition before his Creator, and the salvation offered by his Creator.
If someone denies that Jesus is the one true God, he must repent. He must recognize that Jesus is not simply an exalted created being, or a god of a great pantheon of Gods, but the eternal Creator God.
If someone believes that his relationship with God can be restored through any work of man, he must repent, and recognize that Jesus has paid the sin debt through His death on the cross, and that it is through Jesus alone that salvation can be found.
It should come as no great surprise, therefore, that, in the context of salvation, we see the object of repentance directed to some of these very elements.
Q&A
1. Jesus is God!
2. No. You do not have to publically confess Jesus Christ as Lord as a condition of obtaining eternal life. Public confession is a work. Romans10:9 does not require confessing Christ before men as a requirement for eternal life, as the context clearly shows.
Romans 10:9-10 (NKJV) “that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
Once one believes unto righteousness, he has eternal life. If there were a requirement to make a public confession of Christ as a condition for obtaining eternal life, it would probably not have been inadvertently left out of the 150+ other passages in the Bible that condition salvation on faith in Christ alone.
3. Repentance – see my earlier comments
You wrote, “…in order to have the free gift you must receive it in faith by confessing and believing that He is true.YOU CAN’T EVEN DO THE ABOVE UNLESS YOU FIRST REPENT AND THIS IS ONLY BY THE DOING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.”
You are saying that a lost man must be and is regenerated ie, born again prior to and apart from personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. What you articulate in the statement is one of the dangerous extra-biblical positions that flows from Calvinistic presuppositions. That is an egregious error.
I would direct all readers to the article on this subject by George Zeller.
LM
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/danger03.htm
Last I checked these verses were in the Bible
Matthew 10:32-33
Confess Christ Before Men
32 “ Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
There is an excellent section on Regeneration at Clear Gospel Campaign. See link below:
http://www.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=25&c_id=256
A couple of salient quotes:
“Man’s nature is to sin. And the cross changed man’s legal standing before God. It did not deal with the intrinsic fallen nature of Adam’s race.
This essential and fundamental change in man’s fallen nature is effected by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, man would be eternally justified by the blood of Christ, but would remain eternally subject to his fallen nature. Even in eternity, we would continue to struggle against our sinful tendencies…
Just as a man and a woman came together to produce a new person, a third person separate and distinct from the first two, so God “regenerates” a person. The seed or “sperma” of the Holy Spirit comes together with a lost sinner to produce a new person! …
‘But as many as received Him, to them gave He the power to become the sons of God, to those who believe in His name. ‘ John 1:12
This is not simply an affectionate metaphor, it is one of the most incredible truths in the universe! The new man is an offspring or “hybrid” of the old man and God Himself!! He is in reality and in truth a child of God!
Just as a child draws its genetic traits from its two parents, the same is true with those who are begotten by God. Let’s look again at 1 John 3:9, translating “gennao” as “begotten” rather than “born”.
‘Whoever has been begotten of God does not sin, for His seed (“sperma” in Greek) abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God’
1 John 3:9
Note one of the traits which God has genetically passed on to those who are begotten of Him: They cannot sin! No sin I have ever committed has come from the new person inside me who has been begotten of God. Every sin I have ever committed has come from my old nature. (Fortunately, my sinful nature is one of the genetic traits I did not pass on to this new man! When my flesh dies, my sinful nature will die with it.)”
HB,
Regarding Matthew 10:32-33,
If you look at the context here, these are Jesus’ admonitions to his disciples as he was sending them out to evangelize. They were words of warning about persecution which they would face, but they were also Jesus’ words of encouragement to not fear because God would be with them. Verses 32-33 are in no way intended to speak of a denial or loss of salvation. But they do serve as a reminder that even believers will face a judgment one day, NOT for salvation or damnation, but for rewards. Paul explains this situation well in 2 Corinthians 5:10: “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
HB,
It is the long-standing policy of the Expreacherman site administration to disallow the ongoing promotion of views, such as Lordship Salvation, a.k.a., Lordship Faith or Lordship Probation, which are contrary to the stated Free Grace views of the administration and of the regular commenters. If one is making honest inquiry and seeking explanation of Bible texts, that is fine (perhaps your comments fit into this category). But the site is not designed to become a platform for the propagation of LS or other viewpoints which stand in opposition to the Free Grace Gospel (Ephesians 2:8-9; Acts 16:30-31; John 3:16-18; Romans 4:5; Titus 3:5, et. al.).
How in the world did you get I am for LS?
HB, I agree with you that Matthew 10:32-33 are in the Bible. Confessing Christ before men is an essential part of a Christian’s witness, but not a condition for eternal life. If it were, then Ephesians 2:8 and John 3:16 would be inaccurate.
Non confession is a sign of the spirit of the anti-christ
1 John 4:3
and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
Why confess if you’re not going to shout it from the rooftops?
There are still works, just not works of the law. Does no good to believe if you tepent your sins will be forgiven unless you actually do repent, does no good to believe in the laying of hands on the sick and never go out and actually do it. Acts is a whole book on working out our faith. Peter didn’t walk on water because He believed Him and stayed in the boat
HB,
As LM wrote, what you said earlier seemed to intimate a necessity of regeneration by the Holy Spirit prior to one’s placing her faith in Christ alone for salvation. Also, it seems that you are calling for public confession of faith as a requirement or proof of salvation. These factors, again, seem to point toward an LS understanding. If you are not for LS teaching, then I express my apologies.
If HB is not for LS, then (and I mean this kindly) he does not know what Lordship Salvation is.
LM
It’s more of a testing of the spirit for me. Which we are supposed to do
By the way,
Lou Martuneac wrote, in my opinion, THE definitive book on Lordship Salvation:
In Defense of the Gospel
You hate him because he knows the Truth.
And you will be hating me because I’m following the messenger of Truth.
You hate the Truth.
You are getting angry of the Truth because you don’t like the Truth, and you learned part of the Truth.
I don’t wanna make arguments with you all.
Who agrees with me and the Truth, of course you will be praying with me for these Dears.
And one, I found many of you even in other sites that most of the statements you are typing they are from books.And most of them are not from Bible.
Remember that I said most not all.
God bless you.
ZanHe,
Please understand, no one here “hates” Washer nor you. We dispute and despise his erroneous and false message. He is accursed by God’s Word:
We have used much Scripture to prove that Washer is preaching a false message. Have you read the article?? Or just the headline??
We will pray for you and Washer that you will understand the Truth of the Gospel of Salvation by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone.
Here is the Truth, backed up by Scripture. Please read and believe it:
http://expreacherman.wordpress.com/eternal-life-for-you/
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
I have a person just today that is debating this point with me, and they said “salvation is a lifelong process”. And so I looked up that “quote”, and I was shocked to see some Baptist places using it too.
Obviously salvation is instantaneous, not a “lifelong process”.
Right you are, Andy!
My 20 year-old niece is visiting us this week. She has gotten very engaged in a Bible study at church. They are reading “Not a Fan” by kyle idleman. Absolutely heartbreaking LS garbage. Please see link to review from Free Grace Alliance, below, and pray that my niece would be delivered from the throes of LS and its poisonous influence.
http://www.freegracealliance.com/pdf/Not%20A%20Fan_bookreview_Hosler.pdf
John,
Will certainly pray for your niece.. so sorry to hear that she is falling for the lie. But it seems so easy to fool folks into an LS “belief.”
In Christ eternally, Jack
Thanks Jack. I have a heavy heart regarding my niece, because it reminds me of how Satan is deceiving the world with the false LS lie that works can help save you.
Hosler’s review includes this salient excerpt:
“Rat poison works because it tastes good to rats. It is mostly made of good nutritious meal and a little bit of poison. Satan wants me to take something that is good and wholesome of which every Christian should be engaged and then say: “This will save you.” This is poison. There is a story of a man trying to escape an insane asylum but his window was too high from the ground. There was a closet of sheets in his room so he tied them all together into a rope. He tied one end to his bed post and lowered the rope. It was too short. If he dropped from the end of it he would break his legs. Suddenly he remembered his old lucky pajama bottoms that were thread bare. He tied one leg to his bed and the other leg to his strong rope, grabbed the rope and jumped out the window. You can guess the rest. This is what will happen if you read this book as a lost person and attempt to tie the filthy rags of your own righteousness to the perfect righteousness of God and conclude that this will save you. If you are already saved and read this book and convert to preaching this kind of a gospel, you will spend the rest of your life preaching a gospel that will save no one and there will be no reward for this at the Judgment Seat of Christ.”
That was powerful and sobering, John! Thanks. I hadn’t heard the rat poison illustration used in that way before. Very strong warning!
A note to all:
We are excited and pleased to offer anyone and everyone two new FREE booklets by our dear friend Dr. Tom Cucuzza. These are: (1) Faith Without Works is Dead – What does it Mean? A detailed study of one of the most controversial passages in the Bible, and (2) The Permanence of Salvation. – Twelve Reasons why Once Saved, Always Saved is True.
The links are in the header of this web site “2 Free Booklets By Dr. Tom Cucuzza.“
Enjoy!!!
In Christ eternally, Jack
Note:
Just in case some of you may not have subscribed to our posts, see our new one by our friend John:
You May Be A Lordship Salvationist — IF..
http://www.expreacherman.com/2012/08/14/you-might-be-a-lordship-salvationist-if/
A great article,
In Christ eternally, Jack
Hi!!
Can you explain to me how this fits in for you?
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matthew 7:21-23)
I look forward to your comments!!
Thanks!
Welcome Ishiwoman, thanks for joining the conversation today.
Regarding Matthew 7:21-23:
Referring to Matthew 7:21-23: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
This is a favorite text of Lordship Faith, a.k.a. Lordship Salvation or Lordship Probation, advocates, but they characteristically take the passage out of its proper context. As one of my Bible professors was fond of saying, “A text without a context is just a pretext.”
Look at verses 15-16a: “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them [recognize them] by their fruits.” The context is clearly a warning to watch out for false prophets [we certainly have a lot of those around in our present day]. It is not, as so many LS teachers declare, a warning to churchgoers to make sure that they are doing good works and thus are evidencing that they are really part of the body of Christ (with LS teaching a person never has any genuine assurance of salvation).
“That day” (Matthew 7:22) undoubtedly refers to the final judgment day, the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20. Please note, no Christian will be at that judgment. It is a judgment limited to unbelievers for final punishment (the lake of fire). Believers will face the Bema (judgment seat of Christ) of 2 Corinthians 5:10. There will be NO loss of salvation for true believers. Their’s is a judgment for determination of rewards in eternity. See also, for example, 1 Corinthians 3:9-15.
Another important verse in the text that you cite is Matthew 7:21, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
The pertinent question, then, is, “What is the will of the Father?” For the answer to that question we turn to John 6:28-29 and 40:
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent.” 40: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Combine these texts with Acts 16:30-31, John 3:16-18 and Romans 4:5; the message is crystal clear, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”.
For a more in-depth look at Matthew 7:21-23, see Dr. Charlie Bing’s article:
http://www.gracelife.org/resources/gracenotes.asp?id=28
Thanks for responding!! And for your comments!!
What do you mean by Paul Washer being ‘accursed’ do you mean because of his incorrect theology he will not enter heaven? I understand and know the passages you mention – I’m just curious if you believe that believing false doctrine can nullify him being saved – if he truly believes IN Jesus Christ.
Meaning, if a person is a deceived teacher – and yet truly believes in Jesus Christ (and you are saying that’s all that is required as repentance – to change one’s mind about who Jesus really is) then that deceived teacher would still be saved?
Thanks again!
Hello again, Ishiwoman,
[Your posts were combined for ease of response]
There is a misunderstanding in the Christian community about Galatians 1:8 and the meaning of the term anathema. The term is mistranslated in some modern Bible versions as “condemned” or “eternally condemned.” The Greek does not say that. The term means “accursed.” So, the mistranslation makes people think that person who teaches a false gospel must by definition be an unbeliever who, by implication, has absolutely no chance whatsoever of being saved or of becoming saved. Galatians 1:8 does not say that!
Let me give to you a brief scenario which will hopefully clear things up for you:
Suppose that a young man became a true believer by trusting in Christ Jesus alone by grace alone through faith alone. Some time later, due to his lack of solid grounding in the Bible, the young man fell prey to some false, heretical preaching. Then, the young man began to promote that same false gospel message; he even became a preacher himself, proclaiming that same false teaching. Now, would these actions cause the man to forfeit his salvation? Not at all, because eternal life is by definition ETERNAL; it can never be lost (John 10:27-30; Romans 8:38-39). So how would the curse of Galatians 1:8 affect him? It wouldn’t remove his saved standing with God, but it sure could bring down a curse upon his life, his ministry, and upon anyone else whom he has led astray. And, his false teaching would remove potential rewards at the future judgment for believers (2 Corinthians 5:10—this is a judgment for believers for rewards, NOT for salvation). So, I would say that Paul’s warning in Galatians 1:8 is strong and clear, nothing with which to trifle.
There is another post on this subject at Expreacherman.com:
http://expreacherman.com/2012/02/11/accursed-or-innocent-lordship-salvation-teachers/
Thanks again! I do appreciate you taking the time to explain and respond. It’s not so much to “clear things up” for me as it is that I’m trying to understand what your theology really is.
I understand what you are saying, but in an earlier comment, you listed what it specifically means to “believe”, my question is, does a person really believe and is therefore ‘saved’ and headed for heaven if they are in a homosexual church? That believes it’s ok to be gay and Christian, or it’s ok to be Christian and have an abortion or have sex outside of marriage.
I know you are not saying that sinning is ok – but those people I listed above, you believe are saved, and going to heaven if they continue to live that way, if they really believe Jesus is the Son of God and accept Him?
I ask because I live in a big city that is morally depraved and I’m surrounded by many churches that teach corrupted things.
I’m not saying you approve or condone those things, but you believe that those people are ‘saved’ and have eternal life?
Thanks again.
Hi again, Ishiwoman,
To answer your questions briefly, I would first say that there is no such thing as “a homosexual church.” “Church” means, “a body of believers in Christ Jesus.” So if a group of individuals, as you describe, promotes or condones homosexuality, and/or abortion and sex outside of marriage, I would declare that the group in question is NOT a church, i.e., it is not a body of believers. Could a true Christian attend one of those groups? Yes, but the Holy Spirit will work on their hearts and they will be miserable if they stay put.
Now, I appreciate your statement, “I know you are not saying that sinning is ok” because many in the Lordship Salvation camp do indeed accuse Free Grace Christians of antinomianism, a fancy word meaning, “promoting and/or openly condoning lawlessness or sinful behavior among believers.” Their argument is preposterous; of course neither side of the debate would promote such behavior. One of the many flaws of Lordship Salvation teaching is that its proponents set up ARBITRARY lofty standards of Christian morality, behavior and “proofs” of acceptable service to God. LS makes no allowances for age, varying levels of Christian maturity, struggles with past addictions or temptations to sin. Pity the poor believer who fails to meet these contrived standards; he will likely be declared an unbeliever. Who sets the standards? How long must one live in an “on-fire” state for God? What happens if one strays from the Lord? What if that occurs for an extended period? Is the person still (or ever) saved? What about biblical examples of true believers who lived in a backslidden state for long periods of time? Lot, Jacob, Jonah, Samson, King Solomon, King David, all come quickly to mind [Peter, a believer, openly denied the Lord], yet the Scripture declares them all to be true believers in the Lord God.
I wrote an article which goes into more detail on some of these issues. Here is the link:
http://www.freegracealliance.com/pdf/Free_Grace_Theology_is_NOT_Easy_Believism1.pdf
ishiwoman, sinning is never OK. But salvation is in no way dependent on a person forsaking, endeavoring to forsake, vowing to forsake, or even being willing to forsake sin. This would include the sins of homosexuality, abortion, or sex outside of marriage.
From Northland Bible Baptist Church “What We Believe”:
“Repentance in salvation means a change of mind from any idea of religion that man may have and to accept God’s way of salvation. Repentance does not in any sense include a demand for a change of conduct before or after salvation.”
From Clear Gospel Campaign:
“WHAT SAVING REPENTANCE IS NOT:
1. Saving repentance is not being sorry for your sins.
2. Saving repentance is not turning from your sins or reforming your life.
3. Saving repentance is not the willingness to turn your life over to God so that He can direct your path.
Saving repentance has absolutely nothing to do with regretting your sins or resolving to turn from them. God is willing to save you just the way you are. The Bible says:
While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
WHAT SAVING REPENTANCE IS:
The principle word for “repentance” is from the Greek noun “metanoia,” and the Greek verb “metanoeo.” Metanoia simply means “a change of mind.” When used in the context of eternal salvation, repentance is a change of mind about Jesus Christ, and His eternal divinity, His atoning death, His victorious resurrection, and His offer of eternal salvation by faith alone, apart from the works of the law. On page 19 of The Gospel Booklet, the content of saving faith is summarized as follows:
I. Man’s Need:
i) Man is sinful, and his sins separate him from a Holy God.
II. Salvation:
i) God will declare a lost sinner “Not Guilty” of all his sins, past, present, and future; and
ii) God offers a perishing man the gift of eternal life.
III. The Requirement:
i) Faith
III (a) The Object of Saving Faith:
Jesus Christ.
III (b) (The content of Saving Faith):
i) That Jesus is the eternal creator God;
ii) That Jesus death paid in full for our sins;
iii) That Jesus rose again from the dead; and
iv) That Jesus offer of salvation is a gift apart from any work of man.
If someone denies, or does not understand his need for salvation, he must repent. He must recognize his lost condition before his Creator, and the salvation offered by his Creator.
If someone denies that Jesus is the one true God, he must repent. He must recognize that Jesus is not simply an exalted created being, or a god of a great pantheon of Gods, but the eternal Creator God.
If someone believes that his relationship with God can be restored through any work of man, he must repent, and recognize that Jesus has paid the sin debt through His death on the cross, and that it is through Jesus alone that salvation can be found.”
Thanks again! I appreciate all of your comments and answers! I am not in any “camp”, I am only interested in the Truth and understanding the Bible better.
I understand everything you’re saying and thanks again for taking time to explain what you believe.
God Bless!
How is Accepting Christ – who is the bearer of our sins..not forsaking sin?
What Jesus are you speaking of?
Are we reading the same Bible?
Ishiwoman,
What verses are you reading that tell you that accepting Christ is synonymous with forsaking sin? By “accepting Christ” do you mean putting faith in Him for salvation?
ishiswoman, accepting Christ means believing in Him alone for eternal salvation. Please see excerpt below from Clear Gospel Campaign:
“Section 1 The Object and Content of Saving Faith
We believe that the object of saving faith is our Lord Jesus Christ. We note, however, that a name is simply an emblem of the truths associated with a person’s character, and that it is a person’s character that sanctifies, or sullies his name, not the name that sanctifies or sullies a person’s character. We believe that this is why God has “magnified His Word above His name” (Psalm 138:2). It is the eternal truths of God’s divine nature, as revealed in His word, that give meaning and awe to His name. Accordingly, we believe that the name “Jesus” and the word “gospel” are not magic words, and that to simply speak of “Jesus” or the “gospel” when divorced from the essential truths of Jesus Christ and His glorious gospel is to preach “another Jesus” (2nd Corinthians 11:3-4) and “another gospel” (Galatians 1:6-7) in whom and in which there is no salvation. Accordingly, we believe that a saving profession of faith in Jesus Christ must include as its content, at the very least:
1. An understanding and belief that one has sinned and fallen short of the standard required by God, and therefore, in need of a Savior (Matthew 9:12; 1st Corinthians 15:1-4).
2. An understanding and belief that Jesus Christ is the Eternal God who became a man; (Matthew 16:16-18; John 8:23-24 & 58; 11:25-27; 20:31; Acts 9:20; 16:30-31; 1st John 5:13).
3. An understanding and belief that the violent and bloody death suffered by Jesus Christ was sufficient to cover, pay for, or take away the sins of the one who believes in Him (1st Corinthians 15:1-4, John 19:39).
4. An understanding and belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ; (1st Corinthians 15:1-4); and
5. An understanding and belief that Salvation is the gift of God, bestowed only on those who honor the Son by believing in Him alone for their salvation, and renouncing all confidence in the works of the law to contribute to their salvation (John 4:10; Romans 4:4; 11:6; Galatians 2:21; 3:10-14; 5:1-4; Ephesians 2:8-9).
IsHisWoman,
Just FYI, most of us here use the KJV or the NKJV and here is a Bible quote from Jesus Christ Himself you apparently don’t understand. Please read carefully, understand and believe it.. Christ is speaking to you if you have indeed trusted Him as your Savior.
One who puts his trust/faith in the SAVIOR HAS eternal life, which is life without end, regardless of her behavior.
Do you honestly believe that your or anyone’s behavior or lifestyle can contribute to the keeping of your salvation? That is what you are saying. If so, you are depending on the wrong person, not the Person of Jesus Christ.
I would ask you to trust Jesus alone as your Savior (not your life or behavior) — Such trust is not a probationary bi-lateral contract. It is His singular guarantee to you if you take Him at His Word and trust Him alone as your only Hope for your ETERNAL LIFE.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Thanks, but I am not confused about my salvation status nor do I need you to help me understand Jesus’ words of assurance of my eternal life.
My questions were to try and understand your theology – I’m sure you get attacked a lot by people who disagree with you and you seem to have a hostile focus and need to label people who don’t believe your version of grace.
You can put together as many pulled biblical quotes as you like, to support your arguements, but so can anyone else who is wrong!
But I was not attacking you – I was trying to understand your reasoning. Please don’t condescend by mistaking that as my lacking biblical understanding!
Ishiwoman,
How about my earlier question? Before coming on here and shouting at Jack that he is wrong, why don’t you state what you think is the correct view of grace? I am willing to have at least a cordial discussion if you will relax just a bit. No one is here to attack anyone. I’m sure some of us here are equally attempting to understand your reasoning.
ishiwoman, I will not put words in Jack’s mouth, but my reasoning in interpreting the Bible is centered on three doctrines:
1. Salvation by Grace through faith in Christ alone
2. Eternal security for the believer
3. Assurance of eternal security for the believer
If any interpretation of any Biblical passage violates any or all of these doctrines, it has to be wrong.
I am glad that you are here. It might be instructive for all of us if you would tell us what your version of Grace is.
Thanks. John
Who is shouting? And I am fully relaxed! I’m not easily manipulated by comments like these that you’re making now – so stop it!
I appreciate your responses and your kind words John! I don’t think we’re far off from each other on what we believe either – but I’m just not 100% convinced of the theology presented here – and frankly, I just wanted some answers on the terminology you guys use like LS etc.
But in any case – according to you guys…in the end it won’t matter anyway if you think I’m right or wrong about my ‘version’ of Grace, in that we’ll all be seeing each other in heaven – since we all believe and have faith in Christ!
Ishiwoman,
Please understand – No one is trying to manipulate you, especially not me. (Your exclamation points make you seem like you are shouting btw. All caps would do the same.)
My question is actually quite sincere. Do you have a passage in mind that indicates what you are trying say about grace or conversion? I am actually interested in what you have to say about grace. I am not looking for a debate, but just for some more light on your point of view. Thanks.
I have been reading and reading and have yet to see the Holy Gost involvement in the theology that is being discuss here. Secondly what about sanctification, concerning the Holy Gost in the life of the believer. Please don’t shout me out again, we all are trying to see God at work in you all thinking. Look forward to a response, thanks
Hi Quincy,
The Holy Ghost is at work convincing the world of sin. He also specifically works in drawing unbelievers to Christ through the Word of God and especially the gospel. The Holy Spirit however does not just arbitrarily regenerate people. Rather, the Spririt (God) leaves it up to a sinner to put their faith in Christ. The Spirit is indeed at work in many ways in a believer’s life such as comforting, sealing, convicting, illuminating God’s truth. The Bible says, walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. This ties in to walking according to the Word of God. It should also be noted that the Spirit can be grieved and we as believers can go against Him though we should not.
IshiWoman,
I appreciate John’s answer about Grace — he and I agree. However there are many religious “versions” of Grace, the Catholic, the Calvinist, the LS (Lordship Salvationist, to answer your question), most Baptists and almost every mainline denomination have their own version.
But God’s Word has only one meaning of Grace in the context of salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9). The Greek word is Charis, in context, meaning Gift (undeserved or unmerited). If we attach or imply any merit or behavior on our part before, during or after to gain or keep our salvation we contradict the meaning of God’s Gift (Grace).
I have noticed that the traditions of Christmas have confused millions, such as, “If you are a good girl, Santa will bring you some gifts.” This attaches behavior to the word “gift” and makes it a reward. God’s Gift of salvation in not a reward for behavior.
IsiWoman, we do not intend to be contentious here but too often we see folks who simply have their own version of Grace, thus their own version of the Gospel of Grace.
Please, it would be beneficial if you could spell out for us where we differ from you in our proclamation of God’s Grace. Thanks.
I pray we will see you in Heaven, that you are not adding any behavior or works to your assurance of eternity in Jesus Christ.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
I’m just confused about what you are saying exactly – as CalifGracer is saying that (using my example) a homosexual church would not be possible – because in his words “To answer your questions briefly, I would first say that there is no such thing as “a homosexual church.” “Church” means, “a body of believers in Christ Jesus.” So if a group of individuals, as you describe, promotes or condones homosexuality, and/or abortion and sex outside of marriage, I would declare that the group in question is NOT a church, i.e., it is not a body of believers. Could a true Christian attend one of those groups? Yes, but the Holy Spirit will work on their hearts and they will be miserable if they stay put.”
But then another commentator says that it is judgemental of us to say that anyone is or isn’t a “true” Christian.
Then John answers me and says “…sinning is never OK. But salvation is in no way dependent on a person forsaking, endeavoring to forsake, vowing to forsake, or even being willing to forsake sin. This would include the sins of homosexuality, abortion, or sex outside of marriage.”
Do you see how the above 2 answers are different?
So – you’re saying that a person can actually “have an understanding and belief that one has sinned and fallen short of the standard required by God, and therefore, in need of a Savior” then accept Christ alone for Salvation, be saved and then spend the rest of their entire life never being willing to “forsake sin”?
One of you is saying that a “gay” church is simply not a church of believers in Christ – but according to your theology, why not?
What if someone is not sorry at all that they murder people, or rape children -but they have a general conviction that they are lost and accept Jesus as their Savior – with absolutely no willingness to ever forsake “sin” – they are heaven bound?
Those “churches” actually exist in my city!! They have not forsaken, nor are endeavoring to forsake, or vowing to forsake or are even willing to forsake their sin – but they have accepted Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation!!
Maybe it’s just me – but I see a disconnect!
It isn’t examples of “good works” that convince me that people are genuinly saved – or some kind of emotional and dramatic reaction against sin – but I definately do wonder if they have ever truly “believed” in the first place in the original and true sense of the word.
…and please don’t say…it isn’t up to us to judge whether or not someone is saved..or if they are good enough to keep their salvation. I agree with you! But for the point of this thread – that’s just a cop out!
I understand what you are trying to say and agree with you – even in my own personal experience that matches up with the whole of Scripture – that I did not make a list of “sins” to repent of or even know that most of what I was doing and believing was actually sin – and yet Christ saved me the moment I changed my mind about him and accepted Him. But part of changing my mind about Him – was to understand who He really is and why I was so lost – there was a deep (not legalistic) understanding that I was fallen and that He is the ONLY way by which I am now saved.
Just from reading this thread of comments – I happen to see some inconsistency in what makes a “True” Christian!
But maybe you think that CalifGracer and John are saying the same thing – but I don’t.
I know it’s a crazy example – yet a very real one in my town! What do think about that?
Thanks!
And..one more question!!! What if a person has mixed up ideas about Salvation at the time they accept Christ – and so accepting “Salvation by Grace through faith in Christ alone” is mixed in with the “package” idea that they will not be truly saved without works or baptism etc. You and I both know that’s not true – but what if the man being converted doesn’t know that, so he is in fact not accepting salvation through faith in Christ alone..there are attachments for him? Has he actually repented?
Greetings IshiWoman,
For an excellent, concise summary in chart form regarding salvation (which should help you better understand a number of your questions regarding God’s free grace), see:
http://duluthbible.org/files/Publications/Grace%20Family%20Journal/GFJ%201998%20PDF/GFJ%201998%2002%20Mar%20Apr/GFJ%201998%2002%203%20Tenses%20Of%20Salvation%2000%20Rokser.pdf
Ishiwoman, turning from sin is not a requirement for becoming saved or staying saved.
You said:
“So – you’re saying that a person can actually “have an understanding and belief that one has sinned and fallen short of the standard required by God, and therefore, in need of a Savior” then accept Christ alone for Salvation, be saved and then spend the rest of their entire life never being willing to “forsake sin”?”
My answer is yes. If the answer is anything other than yes, what would be the quantification standard? We all still sin. So, how could the sins we have forsaken cancel out the sins we haven’t forsaken?
If anyone thinks that his willingness to forsake sin has anything to do with his eternal security, he is trusting in himself and not in Christ alone.
Regarding your question, in which you said:
“What if a person has mixed up ideas about Salvation at the time they accept Christ – and so accepting “Salvation by Grace through faith in Christ alone” is mixed in with the “package” idea that they will not be truly saved without works or baptism etc. You and I both know that’s not true – but what if the man being converted doesn’t know that, so he is in fact not accepting salvation through faith in Christ alone..there are attachments for him? Has he actually repented?”
I would say that he has believed a false gospel. He has not believed in salvation by Grace through faith in Christ alone. That is what happened to me. I finally understood the real Gospel a couple of years ago and became a believer.
Ishiwoman,
I do thank you for your questions. As far as the “homosexual church” goes I’d be surprised if they did not believe some form of false gospel. To the question of never being willing to forsake sin I’ll say that a believer “should” be willing to forsake sin and to walk in the Spirit. I don’t find it likely that a believer would live perpetually with never any response to conviction of the Holy Spirit. However, I am not saying that we are to test people with tests of behavior to see if they are in the faith. As a counselor I would seek to understand what the person really believes that would lead him to think that homosexuality is ok. That would likely reveal any untruth believed about the gospel or Christ.
I believe John is right in how he answered your other question about believing a counterfeit gospel. I also commend you for this statement: “But part of changing my mind about Him – was to understand who He really is and why I was so lost – there was a deep (not legalistic) understanding that I was fallen and that He is the ONLY way by which I am now saved.” I believe that is true repentance unto salvation. Also, not every poster on here will always be saying the same thing but the discussions are helpful.
On the subject of believers and sin, I agree with the following from Clear Gospel Campaign:
“I BELIEVE that God calls every believer to holiness in this lifetime, and strives to bring every believer to Christ likeness in this lifetime. Nevertheless, I BELIEVE that Christians can, and oftentimes do sin grievously, and that some genuinely saved persons abide in a lifestyle of sin.”
I think this is consistent with all of my previous statements.
Following is an excerpt from the series “Must Faith Endure for Salvation to Be Sure” by Tom Stegall. Number 6 seems to address the question of whether a believer can be saved and spend the rest of their entire life never being willing to forsake sin.
“The Bible actually teaches that it is possible for one who has been genuinely saved to …
1) …commit idolatry and apostasy. (1 Kgs. 11:1-10)
2) …believe only for a while. (Luke 8:13)
3) …not continue in the Word of Christ. (Jn. 8:31)
4) …not abide in Christ. (John 15:1-8)
5) …become disqualified in the race of the Christian life. (1 Cor. 9:27)
6) …resist God’s chastening & correction unto thepoint of physical death. (1 Cor. 11:30-32)
7) …stray from the faith. (1 Timothy 1:3-7)
8) …shipwreck faith. (1 Timothy 1:18-20)
9) …fall away from the faith. (1 Timothy 4:1-3)
10) …deny the faith. (1 Timothy 5:8)
11) …cast off initial faith and follow Satan. (1 Timothy 5:12-15)
12) …stray from the faith by loving money. (1 Timothy 6:9-10)”
So what is the fate of a Christian with an addiction? They believe the Gospel and are saved but can’t seem to give up a certain sin. They know it is a sin, they try repeatedly to stop commiting it but never seem to have any lasting success. They walk free of it for certain periods of time but then fall back into the pit and feel like a miserable hypocrite(again). The Calvinist/LS proponent tells them they were probably never saved to begin with. That sounds like the ‘bad news’ gospel to me because you have to somehow make yourself holy enough to get to Heaven(which is impossible). So then is it just a matter of time before God loses patience with your failure to live a holy life and chastens you to death?
Jon,
The eternal destiny of any Christian is heaven. Regardless of any addiction. The scenario you describe is actually true for many Christians because we all still have the flesh that will always in some way be addicted to the which is evil. There is no litmus test for how much of our Christian life must be spent being actually filled (controlled by the Spirit). Plus, when people start talking about God’s judgment on believers who sin, they often greatly underestimate His infinite love, grace, and mercy. Our sin as believers might can grieve the Holy Spirit but it never nullifies our faith.
A couple of quotes from J.O. Hosler’s “Attaching Personal Righteousness to the Back-side of the Gospel’s Requirements” would seem to apply to this discussion:
On turning from sin for salvation:
“Salvation repentance is not turning from sin to Christ, but rather a turning to Christ with one’s sins…It is not what one does with his sins, but rather what Christ does with his sins, that saves him.
We do know from Scripture that assurance of salvation is possible, and we also know that no one completely ceases from sin. This brings us to the question of quantification. …When do we quit sinning enough to know that we are saved? No one would know, and assurance of salvation would be impossible.
Even after we have practiced godliness for extended periods of our lives, what is our guarantee that we will not fall into sin again and suspect that we were never saved in the first place? If we have no such guarantee, then we have no logical basis for assurance even after years of consistent godliness.”
On believers failing to distinguish themselves from the lost world:
“Why then does Paul beseech them to not be conformed to this world (Rom. 12:2)? Why did Paul say that the Corinthians were walking as men (I Cor. 3:3)? Why does Paul admit that married men and women in the church care for the things of this world (I Cor. 7:33, 34)? Why does Paul warn the Colossians to beware of being spoiled after the rudiments of the world (Col. 2:8)? Why does Paul ask the Colossians why, if they are dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, are they subject to ordinances as though they were living in the world (Col. 2:20)? Why does James tell believers that friendship of the world is enmity with God (James 4:4)? Why? Because there are such persons as worldly Christians.”
On believers having sinful habits and addictions:
“Some will hold that there cannot exist a born again alcoholic nor a born again nicotine addict. Then why did Samson practice vindictiveness all the way through the moment of his death? Virtually every one of his supernatural demonstrations were acts of personal retribution. All he wanted from his final suicide was reprisal for his eyes. Why did some Corinthians persist in sin until God put them to death (I Cor. 11:30)? Does salvation mean that the flesh is incapable of addiction and that there can be no such an one as a regenerated over-eater—or that at least a saint will not die over-eating? Why do Christians have to let not sin reign in their mortal bodies (Rom. 6:12)? Why must they be told to mortify the deeds of the body (Rom. 8:13)? Why must they be told to cleanse themselves from all filthiness of the flesh (II Cor. 7:1)? Why must they be told to not use their liberty as an occasion to the flesh (Gal. 5:13)? Why must they be told to walk in the Spirit in order not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, if true saints cannot fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Gal. 5:16)? Why do Christians need to know that they reap corruption when they sew to the flesh (Gal. 6:7, 8)? Why must they be told not to live the rest of their time in the flesh to the lusts of men, if it is impossible for a Christian to do this for the rest of his time (I Pet. 4:2)? Why must Peter beseech the saints to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul (I Pet. 2:11)? Why? Because Christians can have sinful problems that persist until their sin brings about the judgment of God in their death.”
On believers who fail to mortify the flesh:
“But we think of the example of justified Lot in Sodom (II Pet. 2:7, 8). If a contemporary saint offered his two virgin daughters to a band of homosexuals, became drunk, and later impregnated both daughters, he would be judged to have failed to mortify his flesh.14 Why must Christians be reminded to mortify their bodies in order to live (Rom. 8:13; Col. 3:5)? Why must Christians be beseeched to present their bodies to Christ for service (Rom. 12:1, 2)? Why must Christians be told not to make provision for the flesh (Rom. 13:14)? Why must they be told not to lust after evil things and to not be idolaters (I Cor. 10:6, 7)? Why must they be instructed on how not to fulfill the lust of the flesh (Gal. 5:16)? Why must they be told not to live in the lust of concupiscence as the Gentiles do (I Thess. 4:3-5)? Why was it necessary to tell Timothy to flee youthful lusts (II Tim. 2:22)? Why must Peter beseech the beloved to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul (I Pet. 2:11)? Why? Because believers can fail to mortify the flesh.”
http://www.napierchurch.org/pdf/br_bbd/chap10.pdf
No “homosexual church” teaches free grace theology. I have actually looked into this, since it is occasionally used as an attack against free grace theology (not saying that ishiwoman is attacking, since I believe she is being sincere in questions).
The “homosexual churches” that I have looked into to see their doctrine, have either taught lordship salvation (while asserting that homosexuality is not a sin), or they denied basic things like salvation and heaven and hell, and taught a form of universalism.
So the “homosexual church” thing will always point to other wrong doctrines, and none of them that I have ever found, taught free grace theology. So they’re off obviously on the homosexual sin issue, but also on everything else too.
Thank you Jim and John for your responses, I appreciate them. I will read the link you posted this weekend John, thanks.
Andy, that makes sense. If someone thinks that their sin will keep them out of heaven, then they have to pretend the sin away – rather than trusting in Christ’s atonement.
So the Good News Jon – is to struggle with addiction until you die, having absolutely no real power to overcome sin…but hey, we’re saved and going to heaven, so chin up while you rot in the flesh and destroy the lives of your children and community…but hey…we’re saved!!! That is definitely not my idea of good news and thankfully that is not THE Good News. Do you actually have any experience with struggling addicts? I have spent more than a decade helping hopeless, doomed, written off junkies recover and totally overcome their addictions, after being delivered myself from alcoholism and drug addiction and all kinds of disorders and dysfunctions over 12 years ago!
I am NOT saying that just because a Christian continues to struggle with sin means they are no longer saved – or that I would ever dream of being unkind or harsh with a chronic relapser! Absolutely not!! But the truth is, in my experience of literally hundreds and hundreds of people who either never stop struggling or recover to the point of cure, the sad irony is that it’s Christians with the mindset of “I’m saved in Christ no matter what” who never truly recover – I found that odd! I too believe that those who are truly saved in Christ are saved no matter what – but faith in Christ ALONE for salvation is very very different than faith in your salvation.
The irony is that simple faith in Christ ALONE and small biblical groups and a REAL relationship with God have helped these people overcome almost instantly and permanently (these people have never relapsed again) whereas the “progress not perfection” mentality of their previous churches/pastors/counsellors was the kiss of death. The sad fact is – most addicted Christians I know are not resting on Christ as their only salvation, they are using it as an excuse to avoid radical humility (confessing all your sins and lies, making direct amends to people you’ve harmed and sacrificing your time and energy to help others free of charge or profit). It doesn’t mean that we’re “working for our salvation,” or “working for our recovery” – it’s the opposite, only those I have met and pesonally worked with who truly believe in Christ alone for salvation are the ones who seem willing and able to destroy the power of all the evil desires in their life and who’s nature becomes more like Christ the more they learn about Him. Colossians 3:8-11
I don’t believe that just because someone had a passing fancy in Christ before they continued on in their worship of Satan or themselves means that they “believe” in Christ or have put their faith in Him as their only means for salvation. There is ALWAYS evidence of true conversion. Whether or not that is perceptable by me or other Christians is impossible to know – hence, I would never deem someone “not saved”. A good friend of mine who was saved as a teenager – later went on to become a serious practicing satanist – evil to the core – yet years later when He turned to Christ (with all his sins) God delivered him. Again.
My problem is that I do not trust the motives of people who focus only on “you are saved no matter how much you continue to sin” – that doesn’t seem to be the focus of any writing in the New testament either.
I believe it, it’s the Truth – but I don’t trust the motives of most who promote it! Simply because I believe in the entire message of the Gospel and all the things that that the apostles wrote about – in whole!
As for John and Jim – I sincerely appreciate your answers and comments, you’ve put together alot of things and I really love you for that – one Christian to another!
I have a long flight ahead of me and will look up and read through all the verses you mentioned in my study of the original languages of the Bible as that seems to be really helping me understand things better about the Bible!
xoxo
Hi Ishi. You said “So the Good News Jon – is to struggle with addiction until you die, having absolutely no real power to overcome sin…” but that’s a strawman for no one here has claimed that Free Grace means “no real power” to overcome sin. The good news is, however, that because of the supreme-sufficiency of Christ’s atonement you no longer have to wonder if your salvation is conditioned upon it.
Contrary to your claim, much of scripture IS about believers who perpetually struggled with sin, some even to the point of death. Just read 1 and 2 Corinthians — they as a church were a mess, either engaged-in or endorsing sin such as not even known among the gentiles — yet not once in either letter does the Apostle question their salvation because of it. In fact, Paul repeatedly affirms their salvation and even uses it as a proof of his own apostleship. (2 Cor 13:5.. often badly misunderstood to be an open-ended question of valid faith when in fact the Greek syntax marks it clearly as a first class condition which means the author, for sake of argument, is assuming the answer to be “yes”).
Finally, you say “I would never deem someone “not saved”” yet you also appear perfectly willing to make judgments about who has “truly” believed when you say “…only those I have met and pesonally [sic] worked with who truly believe in Christ alone for salvation are the ones who seem willing and able to destroy the power of all the evil desires in their life…”. What external condition satisfied you that these had “truly believed”? (Implying of course that you think at least some of the those who continued to struggle had not “truly believed”).
I’m not trying to be contentious, honest, but I find your latest explanation of “grace” to be meaningfully inconsistent and I hope you’ll reconsider.
Kind Regards.
Stephen
Ishiwoman, I don’t even know where to start.
First of all, lots of people beat addictions. Some do it with the help of Christ, others without the help of Christ. Beating an addiction is in no way synonymous with becoming saved.
From Hosler:
“A lost person can change his mind about sin and reform from some forms of wickedness, but he will be neither saved nor eternally rewarded for this. He may, however, reap some earthly benefits from living a prudent life.”
You said:
“But the truth is, in my experience of literally hundreds and hundreds of people who either never stop struggling or recover to the point of cure, the sad irony is that it’s Christians with the mindset of “I’m saved in Christ no matter what” who never truly recover – I found that odd!’
Your experience is not the truth! The Bible is the truth. How absurd to say that “Christians with the mindset of “I’m saved no matter what” are the ones who never truly recover. That literally means that those who have assurance of their salvation are less likely to recover than those that do not have assurance of their salvation.
Please tell me “in your experience” how we would use this to promote assurance. Are you saying that promoting lack of assurance helps with recovery?
You also said “There is ALWAYS evidence of true conversion.” What is your Biblical evidence of this? Not the “truth of your experience”, but the truth.
Finally, you said:
“I believe it, it’s the Truth – but I don’t trust the motives of most who promote it!”
Why would you ever distrust the motives of people who proclaim the truth?
Odd – how you keep taking what I say out of context of my whole comment- exactly like what you are doing to the Bible.
Good luck with that!
This will be my final comment as to be honest I find it really strange how many comments and threads on this site I find so many contradictions to the Bible! It keeps reminding me of those things that Satan was bringing up to Jesus in the desert – he was saying all the right things – right out of scripture – yet it wasn’t the whole truth.
I understand if you are even unwilling to post my comment – or would like to lump me into LS BS VS or double tongue or whatever else label you have..LOL!!
But the truth is – biblical discernment has taught me well when I see men who’s mind’s take something whether written by a poster or the Bible and literally read what they want from it. That is scary to me!
God Bless you, and bye!
Jon, despite ishiwoman’s sarcasm, I do not think Christians are powerless to overcome sin. In fact, I believe what the Bible says: For example, Galatians 5:16 (NKJV):
“I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.”
But, becoming saved and living a Christian life are entirely different things. I am trying to keep them from becoming confused.
Satan loves to tell an unsaved person that doing things that all Christians should do is essential to becoming saved. The reason Satan loves this, is because if he can get the unsaved to believe that , they will remain unsaved.
Ishiwoman, I missed one. You said:
“A good friend of mine who was saved as a teenager – later went on to become a serious practicing satanist – evil to the core – yet years later when He turned to Christ (with all his sins) God delivered him. Again.”
How did he turn to Christ again? What did God deliver him from? If he was saved as a teenager, was he still saved when he was “evil to the core”? What if he hadn’t turned to Christ again years later? Would he have been one of those who “had a passing fancy in Christ”?
Ishiwoman, let’s try it this way:
So the Good News Jon – is to struggle with addiction until you die, having absolutely no real power to overcome sin…but hey, we’re saved and going to heaven, so chin up while you rot in the flesh and destroy the lives of your children and community…but hey…we’re saved!!! That is definitely not my idea of good news and thankfully that is not THE Good News. Do you actually have any experience with struggling addicts? I have spent more than a decade helping hopeless, doomed, written off junkies recover and totally overcome their addictions, after being delivered myself from alcoholism and drug addiction and all kinds of disorders and dysfunctions over 12 years ago!
(my comment: this is a sarcastic misrepresentation of my posts. I never said that a Christian is powerless to overcome addictions, and I don’t believe that.)
I am NOT saying that just because a Christian continues to struggle with sin means they are no longer saved – or that I would ever dream of being unkind or harsh with a chronic relapser! Absolutely not!! But the truth is, in my experience of literally hundreds and hundreds of people who either never stop struggling or recover to the point of cure, the sad irony is that it’s Christians with the mindset of “I’m saved in Christ no matter what” who never truly recover – I found that odd! I too believe that those who are truly saved in Christ are saved no matter what – but faith in Christ ALONE for salvation is very very different than faith in your salvation.
(my comment: Your experience is not the truth! The Bible is the truth. How absurd to say that “Christians with the mindset of “I’m saved no matter what” are the ones who never truly recover. That literally means that those who have assurance of their salvation are less likely to recover than those that do not have assurance of their salvation.
Please tell me “in your experience” how we would use this to promote assurance. Are you saying that promoting lack of assurance helps with recovery?)
The irony is that simple faith in Christ ALONE and small biblical groups and a REAL relationship with God have helped these people overcome almost instantly and permanently (these people have never relapsed again) whereas the “progress not perfection” mentality of their previous churches/pastors/counsellors was the kiss of death. The sad fact is – most addicted Christians I know are not resting on Christ as their only salvation, they are using it as an excuse to avoid radical humility (confessing all your sins and lies, making direct amends to people you’ve harmed and sacrificing your time and energy to help others free of charge or profit). It doesn’t mean that we’re “working for our salvation,” or “working for our recovery” – it’s the opposite, only those I have met and pesonally worked with who truly believe in Christ alone for salvation are the ones who seem willing and able to destroy the power of all the evil desires in their life and who’s nature becomes more like Christ the more they learn about Him. Colossians 3:8-11
(my comment: Jesus has the power to change lives. Those who accept Jesus as Savior will spend eternity with Him in Heaven. Those who accept Him as Shepherd will become more Christlike in this lifetime.)
I don’t believe that just because someone had a passing fancy in Christ before they continued on in their worship of Satan or themselves means that they “believe” in Christ or have put their faith in Him as their only means for salvation. There is ALWAYS evidence of true conversion. Whether or not that is perceptable by me or other Christians is impossible to know – hence, I would never deem someone “not saved”. A good friend of mine who was saved as a teenager – later went on to become a serious practicing satanist – evil to the core – yet years later when He turned to Christ (with all his sins) God delivered him. Again.
(my comment: How did he turn to Christ again? What did God deliver him from? If he was saved as a teenager, was he still saved when he was “evil to the core”? What if he hadn’t turned to Christ again years later? Would he have been one of those who “had a passing fancy in Christ”?)
My problem is that I do not trust the motives of people who focus only on “you are saved no matter how much you continue to sin” – that doesn’t seem to be the focus of any writing in the New testament either.
I believe it, it’s the Truth – but I don’t trust the motives of most who promote it! Simply because I believe in the entire message of the Gospel and all the things that that the apostles wrote about – in whole!
(my comment: Why would you ever distrust the motives of people who proclaim the truth?)
As for John and Jim – I sincerely appreciate your answers and comments, you’ve put together alot of things and I really love you for that – one Christian to another!
I have a long flight ahead of me and will look up and read through all the verses you mentioned in my study of the original languages of the Bible as that seems to be really helping me understand things better about the Bible!
(my comment: enjoy your flight! If you sincerely appreciate my comments, why would you later say that I keep taking you out of context. When was the prior occasion? In what way do you think I take the Bible out of context?)
xoxo
John, Jon, Stephen and all others,
We thank you for your patience and Truthful Biblical answers to Ishi, trying to get her to see the TRUTH of God’s Amazing Free Grace.
Yours was a valiant and sufficient effort for the Lord, expressing and explaining the Bible doctrine of Grace — wherein folks must make decisions. Because, God’s Grace does not force decisions or behavior upon anyone.
We pray Ishi may someday realize that what she is teaching is contrary to God’s Grace. Grace does not remove the responsibility or decisions:
(1) for the unsaved to Trust Christ as Savior or
(2) for a believer to decide to be obedient to God’s Word, through the power of God’s Holy Spirit.
We cannot thank you enough for all of your wonderful Biblical answers to Ishi.
Stephen Stark we certainly welcome you to ExPreacherMan.com. I pray your (and everyone else’s) words of Biblical Wisdom will sink in to Ishi.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
JimF, Matthew for Grace, Andy — and probably a few more I may have neglected,
I regret that I started naming names of those I thank because I noticed I neglected you.. Your comments were valuable to a lady (Ishi) who refused to listen and learn the best News man has ever had the privilege to hear, the Gospel of God’s Grace. Your comments were valuable to the discussion and we must pray that IshiWoman will contemplate and believe the simple message of Salvation through God’s Grace alone by Faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
You are appreciated.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Ishiwoman, you don’t know me in the least but have no problem judging me and my relationship with God and my salvation. You say I’m rotting in the flesh and destroying my children and community! Yet later you say you would never “dream of being unkind or harsh with a chronic relapser”. That felt pretty harsh and unkind to me actually. I hope you have been kinder and more loving to the people you have worked with than you were with me. I would quote 1Corinthians 13:1-3 for you but hey even the Devil can quote scripture right? Don’t worry too much about my children because they don’t exist, and my community seems to be growing and thriving despite my presence. I never said i was hooked on drugs or alcohol by the way.
Jon, thanks for your reference to 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. I sometimes need to be reminded to be more loving and less strident.
In his sermon of August 26, 2012, pastor Tom Cucuzza mentioned a number of things that should give us comfort and joy as Christians. Among them were references to Romans 8:31: “What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?” He also read a poem/song by Phillip P. Bliss.
“Free from the law. Oh happy condition
Jesus hath bled and there is remission.
Cursed by the law and bruised by the fall
Grace hath redeemed us, once for all.
Now are we free. There’s no condemnation.
Jesus provides a perfect salvation.
Come unto Me. Oh hear His sweet call.
Come and He saves us, once for all.
Once for all, oh sinner receive it
Once for all, oh brother, believe it.
Cling to the cross. The burden will fall
Christ hath redeemed us once for all.”
See link below:
http://northlandchurch.com/2011/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/VOA-MP3-Message0265-Hebrews19.mp3
I posted some excerpts from another of Tom Cucuzza’s sermons on another thread. See link, below:
http://expreacherman.com/2012/08/14/you-might-be-a-lordship-salvationist-if/#comment-14017
I will repeat the final paragraph here:
“Salvation is not a bi-lateral contract. That’s why this so called “Lordship salvation” being preached today by people like Piper, and MacArthur, and Sprawl, and all these other people – that’s why it is a damning, false message. Because it is adding to the condition of salvation – which is Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It’s the only way you’re saved. It’s not a bi-lateral contract. It’s unilateral! It’s God saying: ‘I promise you this’.”
Thank you also John for all of the verses and the beautiful poem you posted. I have been listening to some of Cucuzza’s sermons from the Hebrews series as well. I’m so thankful and blessed to have access to them, and they are also challenging to me. I really don’t want to miss out on God’s blessings for this life and the rewards for eternity either. And as Tom mentioned the things that people like myself turn to, like drugs and pornography etc, DON’T satisfy. I am thankful that my salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone and that I am eternally secure in spite of my failures to be obedient to God. And the verses from 1 Corinthians about love are a good reminder for myself also. Thanks very much for your encouragement! I don’t know how bi-lateral contracts or fear of losing salvation because of sin can be encouraging or appealing to anyone.
Jon, even though we know that it is Christ alone who can satisfy us, we all continue to struggle in this life.
Like you said, I am thankful that salvation is not dependent on our performance. Otherwise, we would all be lost.
Regarding God’s blessings in this life, remember that we have confident access to God because of Christ’s faithfulness – not ours. (Romans 3:12).
Also, remember that God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing (Ephesians 1:3).
Sorry, I meant Ephesians 3:12, not Romans 3:12
Hello all,
Our friend John has written another insightful article which you will find very interesting:
Lordship Salvation: Blinded From The Light; Satan’s Devious Campaign Tricks
http://www.expreacherman.com/2012/09/11/blinded-from-the-light-satans-devious-campaign-tricks/
In Christ, Jack
Pingback: Paul Washer Again, Lordship “Salvation” Message and Worse. | Notes From A Retired Preacher
if you could lose eternal life then it has the wrong name
Mike,
Welcome to ExPreacherMan.
You are absolutely right — Why one such as Washer can say “eternal” life and then claim it can be removed, lost, unsure or only temporary. Eternal Life IS Eternal.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
hi i have been reading some of yos ur posts on faith alone by grace alone in
christ alone for salvation I don,nt have any problem beleiving once saved always saved as it is obvious by untold scriptures. I am having a struggle with the condition for salvation. when you
are faced with the fact that you are a sinner by nature and by choice and
need personal forgiveness for all the sins you have commited aren,nt you in a sense repenting of those sins by receiving his forgiveness. Why would
you ask for forgiveneness if you are not willing to forsake those sins. Its
sort of double dutch to me. to ask for forgiveness but are still wanting to
not forsake them. I have been trying to think it through and the only thing
i can think is to see forgiveness as a gift as only jesus blood takes away
those sins but you arent saying to god i want my sins forgiven but i aren,nt
willing to give them up sounds crazy. Unless god is forgiving you unconditionally whether you are willing to forsake those sins or not
I finished listening to a sermon by Washer the other day on Propitation and he said, quote, “salvation is a gift gift gift gift gift gift gift. It is a free free free free gift gift gift gift.” It’s really hard to surmise a man’s entire theology from listening to a few sermons.
Cody,
Thanks for dropping by and commenting.
You have just summarized the problem with Washer. It matters not that you hear him shout “free gift” a hundred times — but he also says one must turn from his sins to be saved a hundred times. The two statements are contradictory. One is Truth, the other a lie.
His first hundred proclamations of “free gift” is then cancelled out completely by his false teaching that one must “turn from sin” to be saved. The lie or false statement on purpose negates the true doctrine of salvation by Grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone without one’s works.
Romans 11:6
“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
In Christ, Jack
Hello Cody,
Paul Washer’s lordship salvation stance (also known as lordship probation or lordship faith) is well chronicled at this site and at many other sites. Every lordship salvation teacher that I have heard or read CLAIMS that salvation is a free gift. Then, without exception, every single one of them quickly and vociferously (as well as hypocritically) denies that salvation is a free gift by adding unbiblical qualifications and demands to become saved, to prove one’s salvation to the LS fruit inspectors, and to remain saved. There is absolutely NO ASSURANCE of salvation in Paul Washer’s unbiblical thelogy.
Hi Alana,
Glad to have you aboard and thanks for your interesting question/comment.
John, one of our regular commenters here tried to answer you but his computer failed to respond. So, here is his comment:
“For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (KJV)
Thanks John.
=======
I might add for Alana that God’s Gift of Eternal Life is already provided by God for the taking. We do not ASK or beg for His Gift, simply, by faith, TAKE IT.
Alana, Jesus Christ indeed shed His precious blood for you. That is His all sufficient Gift for you to take. No need to ask, no prayer needed, no weeping, wailing or gnashing of teeth. Simply believe He has already done that for you.
John 3:18
“He that believeth on him [Jesus] is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God [Jesus].”
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
We as humans tend to be sorry over and over again, but then keep on committing the same offenses in spite of our regret. What good is our sorrow to God? As long as people go on believing that the word repent means “turn from sin”, then I don’t see how they’ll be able to believe the gospel. When God, through Jesus Christ’s blood, invites “whosoever” to drink freely from His fountain of Living Water, where in that invitation do we see a trade? There is nothing we can do but receive/believe it!
Alana,
You said,
“Unless god is forgiving you unconditionally whether you are willing to forsake those sins or not.”
Willingness to forsake sin is not a requirement for salvation. Try to think of conversion not as asking God for forgiveness but rather as turning from unbelief and placing your faith in Christ alone for salvation. Believers then are imputed Christ’s righteousness based on His sinless life, shed blood and resurrection. It is under Christ’s blood that our sins are pardoned. Sorrow and begging for forgiveness is not salvation but it may be part of a person’s experience before or after coming to faith as described above. The problem comes in when people try to make the sorrow and asking for forgiveness a part of the condition to receive eternal life. Some would describe this as repenting of your sins. However, how can an unregenerate person be willing enough to turn from sin before they are saved? They can’t and it doesn’t matter anyway.
Some also make the mistake of seeing conversion the same as repentance that can be from sin in the Christian life. For example, say I offend my brother and then repent going to him to ask forgiveness with the attitude that I will do my best to not offend him that way again in the future. As a believer that would be a good response to the Holy Spirit. The difference is though that the unbeliever’s only response to the gospel and the Holy Spirit must first be faith in Christ. Some Lordship proponents place Christian abilities on the lost coming to Christ because of their erroneous notion that God regenerated them just prior thus enabling them to believe/repent like a Christian would. Of course I think it is double talk to say a person needs to be granted new life before Christ’s salvation can be appropriated. Kind of like be saved to get saved…
I’m new to this blog. I joined because I liked the great posts that I found on the topic of Calvinism. There is a great one on the word “sovereignty”
I will be brief on the topic of repentance. I am NOT a LS believer, but I do believe in biblical repentance. It is a “change of mind”…but I believe that this “change of mind” will result in a “change of life”…and I don’t believe this “change of life” will be instantaneous. There is a process of “spiritual growth”/sanctification. We are all being “conformed to the image of Christ” and our “works” are the RESULT/FRUIT of our salvation, not the CAUSE of it. We are new creatures in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17).
Jesus died for my SINS not my UNBELIEF. He saves me FROM my sins, not IN my sins. Why would one “continue in sin” after “so great a salvation”? (Hebrews 12:1-2)
“Repentance is largely a change of mind in relation to God Himself, to the role He has in life and in one’s own life in particular” (David Cloud, “Repentance and Lordship Salvation”).
I guess I will just have to repost what I posted about 20 minutes ago…if I can remember what I said.
This is my first post in this blog. I am not a LS believer, but I do believe in biblical repentance. Yes, biblical repentance is a “change of mind”, however that “change of mind” should result in a “change of life”. We are new creatures in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17). “I’m not what I used to be, I’m not what I’m gonna be, but thank God, I’m NOT what I WAS”. Does salvation make a difference in how we live? Do we have a desire for the things of God? I realize that our sin nature has not been eradicated when we got saved and we will still sin…but is this our lifestyle as a Christian?
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
We don’t become “sinless”, but we will “sin less”.
Hello again, Lindar,
Regarding 1 John, it is clearly written to BELIEVERS, as is the book of James. Both of these epistles speak about the QUALITY of one’s faith, NOT the reality. See, in more detail:
http://www.gracelife.org/resources/gracenotes.asp?id=36
I’ll have to let others answer your other points for now. If you do a site search, all of your points and verses have been explained in depth on various discussions.
Did I accidentally double post? I thought my original post just disappeared.
In reference to 1 John 1:8-10, I know that was written to believers. Sin continues to be present in the believer’s life, and it is dealt with by confession and the advocacy of Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
The question I would ask is this: Are you all saying that one can get saved by grace alone through faith and then continue to live like we did before we got saved? The apostle Paul says “God forbid”!
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Isn’t the newborn Christian supposed to “desire the pure milk of the Word, that ye may grow thereby”? (1 Peter 2:2)
You say the 1 John and James speak of the QUALITY of one’s faith, NOT the reality. I would think that the QUALITY of one’s faith would be a good indicator of the REALITY of one’s faith, through the changed lifestyle of the believer. If nothing changes in the life of the new believer…and I don’t mean some drastic change (although that sometimes happens)…then your faith is “dead”, as James 2:20, 26 state. If there is no QUALITY of faith, then there is NO REALITY either…and that faith is dead!
Again, let me state that I am definitely NOT an LS believer. I do not believe that you must repent of ALL your sin in order to be saved….that is works salvation or Lordship Salvation. Neither do I believe that we need to do works in order to keep our salvation. It is God working IN US…we “work out” that which He has already worked in.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
The power of the Christian life is the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Christian is to walk after the Spirit (Romans 8:4; Galatians 5:16-18).
Linda,
Glad to have you here. I will make a couple of observations and maybe later Bruce and others may answer in more detail.
The first principles of God’s Grace Salvation is that Eternal Life is indeed ETERNAL.. which is Life in Christ without end, sealed by God’s Holy Spirit the moment we believe in Christ, 2 Corinthians 1:22 and John 3:16. Then in John 10:28, Jesus says:
So that being settled in scripture, your question is, “Are you all saying that one can get saved by grace alone through faith and then continue to live like we did before we got saved?”
The word Grace implies undeserved mercy. We can do nothing to qualify us to have or keep salvation. Since we, as mere mortals, cannot look into the mind of other mortals — we cannot say one is a believer and another is not. We must go by their words, not their life, actions or behavior. God knows the mind, and he determines our destination based on whether we have ever made the one time decision to trust/believe in Jesus alone for our salvation. He knows.
God also promises to chasten and scourge every believing son (or daughter). Hebrews 12:6-7. You nor I may necessarily know when a believer is being chastened. But God guarantees He will do so. In short, a believer may try to live a life of disobedience but he will suffer in doing so.. but such suffering is never a loss of salvation. That is God’s Grace. Nor is such suffering or a lack thereof a sign that one is a believer — or not.
The verse you quote Ephesians 2:10 is key. It states we SHOULD walk in good works. It does NOT say we “must” nor that we “will.”
If you will study the book of 1st Corinthians you will see a vile and corrupt group of believers, yet called by the Apostle Paul, “saints” (sanctified ones) in v2 and then “brethren” or brothers in Christ in v10. These are a terrible bunch of Heaven bound believers whom Paul berates throughout 1st Corinthians. They finally do understand Paul’s Grace discipline message and in 2nd Corinthians, they are a different behaving group, by their choice.
We must understand that it is our choice to believe in Jesus Christ and likewise our choice to be obedient to Him. The choice to be disobedient results in a temporary chastening and is “not joyous but grievous.” Hebrews 12:11.
However, when one chooses not to trust/believe in Jesus Christ alone as Savior, he/she is condemned already. John 3:18.
These are two big choices in life; one
to not believe insures eternal condemnation. The other once a believer, be disobedient with temporary chastening problems.
Trust to have eternal Life — and then as a believer, Obey to have a proper loving, sweet fellowship with the Lord and other believers.
I pray this helps.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Linda, good to have you here!
You said: “I would think that the QUALITY of one’s faith would be a good indicator of the REALITY of one’s faith, through the changed lifestyle of the believer.”
The good news is that our thoughts are not God’s thoughts.
If I were to agree with you that the quality of one’s faith would be an indicator or the reality of one’s faith, then I would need to think about the following questions:
1. What is the quality of my faith?
2. What standard should I use to assess the quality of my faith?
3. If the quality of my faith is deficient, according to whatever standard I devise, what should I do? Should I work on the quality of my faith or should I ask myself whether I have ever trusted in Christ alone for salvation?
4. If the quality of my faith is OK, according to whatever standard I devise, will I be able to maintain that quality? What would happen if I don’t?
Do you notice how much I needed to use the words “I” and “My” in the above analysis?
The Bible says we can be assured of salvation the moment we believe.
Following are questions on the basis of assurance from Clear Gospel Campaign:
“Most assuredly I say unto you: He that hears My Word and believes on Him that sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death into life.”
John 5:24
“According to this verse, how can you be sure that you have truly been saved?
-You can be sure that you have truly been saved if your life begins to change, showing that God has really come into your life.
-You can be sure that you have truly been saved if you bear the fruit of good works.
-You can be sure that you have truly been saved if many years from now you are still walking with Christ.
-You can be sure that you have truly been saved if you heard the gospel and believed it.”
I think there is only one right answer.
Lindar68,
You said,
“If there is no QUALITY of faith, then there is NO REALITY either…and that faith is dead!”
That is not true. The faith is there still but it is ineffective as in useless. If a believer wants their faith to be useful again then 1 John 1:9 comes to mind along with walking in the Spirit like you mentioned. People that have a dead faith have a poor and useless testimony – not a non-existent faith or a faith that was lost.. They will also not be effective like they could in the Lord’s work.
“It is God working IN US…we “work out” that which He has already worked in.”
There is an aspect of God working in a believer through the Word and the Spirit but God does not work through us as in making us do good works. It is better, I think, to see it as what you alluded to before as far as desiring the milk of the Word. Believers should desire to grow in knowledge of the scripture, in grace, in the Lord etc. We should also remember that more can be worked out if we take more in as far as the Word. Think of a person who is saved and has no Bible to read. How much more could a person “live out” with the knowledge of God’s full revelation. We must be making sure that there is fuel for the Spirit to work with. It is our responsibility to study the Word. That is exactly part of walking in the Spirit as the two go hand in hand and each encourage the other. Likewise a believer can spiral the opposite way neglecting the Word and the Spirit and live a lifestyle of ineffectiveness. It will bring problems to be sure but never loss of salvation or God is a liar and the Bible is full of falsehood. John 3:16 spells it out in simple enough terms.
Its true that salvation is a free gift but yet its not a license to sin because we supposed to be a new creature after we become born-again. Those that so called christians and yet still living the same old life style your just trying to justify your self but i do know God does not lower HIS standard to met yours.Jesus said “Be thou perfect as I’am perfect”.
Hello Meme,
I’m glad to hear that you believe that salvation is a free gift! Now, simply rest in that hope.
To the best of my knowledge, NOT ONE of the founders, administrators, regular contributors, or even occasional contributors of this site, for that matter, has ever advocated that the free gift of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone should ever be used as a justification or license to sin. This is a specious argument. Free Grace believers teach that true believers in Christ ought to live godly lives; they ought to serve God faithfully; it is the right and proper thing to do—it is what believers SHOULD DO (Ephesians 2:10). However, good works or sin-free lifestyles are never to be used as “proofs” of salvation. True believers can and do sin, sometimes even for extended periods of time. Biblical examples abound: Samson, Solomon, Lot, David and the Church at Corinth, are all declared in Scripture to be believers, yet they all lived some pretty ungodly lifestyles for long periods of their lives.
Meme, you advocate a high standard of Christian living, as you said, “Be thou perfect as I am perfect.” How are you, personally, doing at fulfilling that lofty goal?
Hi all,
Here is a good link on repentance from Charlie Bing. I feel that it sums up and answers most of the questions I see on here concerning the role of repentance in conversion and letter in the Christian life.
http://www.gracelife.org/resources/dissertation.asp?id=chp3
Just wondering and maybe you can explain to me, but you say nowhere in the gospels is repentance for salvation taught by Jesus but in Luke 24:46-47 says exactly that.
Ciaran, repentance is required for salvation. Repentance from sin is not required for salvation. The verses read:
“And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
The consequence of repentance in this passage is clearly related to salvation. The object of repentance in this passage must be inferred, since it is not directly state. Since the consequence of repenting is salvation, the object of repentance must be Jesus Christ, His atoning death for the sins of the whole world and His resurrection.
Check out this link from Clear Gospel Campaign:
http://www.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=27&c_id=227
I wonder, to what extent have the mainstream churches, their heroes, and sometimes even ourselves, become the people we were warned about in Colossians 2? Do the “rudiments of the world” include the following concepts:
1. That there is no such thing as Grace? That God would require that we exchange gifts when we receive His gift of Grace through Christ Jesus?
2. That fruit inspection is the job of Christians?
3. That we should superimpose man’s religion on God’s Grace?
4. That we should indulge our flesh (pride, false humility) through “Christian” rule making, rule following and rule giving?
Verses 8-10:
“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power”
Verses 20-23:
“Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.”
If John the Baptist (Matt 3:2), Jesus (Matt 4:17), the disciples (Mark 6:12) and Paul (Acts 17:30) preached that men should repent then why is it wrong for Paul Washer? Seeing as how the Bible talks of repentance often shouldn’t repentance be a part of our message. Peter also seems to preach lordship salvation. It was Peter (not Paul Washer) that originally said God had made Jesus both Lord and Christ. I know in our seeker friendly church culture it is easier to stay away from preaching against sin and expecting people to allow God to change them yet the Bible plainly shows that a real encounter with Christ changes you.
Derl,
Welcome to our discussion.
Repentance, properly defined and taught, is correct Bible preaching — but it seems you may have commented before you read or understood from our article the severe problem with Washer.
Washer preaches repentance as turn from sin FOR salvation and then turning from sin to keep your salvation.
There is no other way to put it than to say Paul Washer is a liar and the truth is not in him — Washer is preaching a false “gospel” message with flair but poorly disguised as the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him [PAUL WASHER] be accursed.” Galatians 1:8
Derl, I pray you are trusting Jesus Christ alone to save you completely — and not your “turning from sin.” You can never turn from enough sin to save yourself. Salvation is ONLY by Grace alone through Faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:9-9
Praying for you, Derl
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
“You can never turn from enough sin to save yourself”
Just had this conversation with someone the other day. They had to admit, they still sin. So if the ‘amount’ of sin is the basis of salvation (or at least the basis of security), then I ask the person, do you have salvation or security of salvation based on your life? They have to concede if they are honest, that they might feel saved one day, but not the next day when they have a bad day (which happens sooner or later).
So at that point, their eyes are completely off of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and they are living as if Jesus died for nothing. Their understanding of salvation is overwhelmed by their trying to avoid sin ‘enough’, and that’s the essence of Paul Washer’s message basically. It is a miserable false gospel that he will give an account for one day.
Derl, as J.O. Hosler said: “Salvation repentance is not turning from sin to Christ, but rather a turning to Christ with one’s sins.”
Ron Shea of Clear Gospel Campaign put it like this: “If faith is the hand that accepts salvation through Jesus Christ, repentance is the hand that rejects salvation by any other means.”
And
“Saving repentance has absolutely nothing to do with regretting your sins or resolving to turn from them. God is willing to save you just the way you are. The Bible says:
‘While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.’ Romans 5:8″
You might like “The Gospel” booklet, linked below. I have prayed for you!
http://www.cleargospel.org/booklet.php?b_id=3
I agree that salvation is in Christ alone. Only through Jesus can one be saved. I did read your post and it seems to me as though you present the idea that a person can live carnally and still be a Christian which is obviously not true. As Christians we have sin and temptations but we should struggling to overcome them through Christ and His blood. You need to be careful about making sound like you can be a believer but live like the world. I have listened to many of Paul Washer’s sermons and I’ve never heard him promote the idea that you can be saved without Jesus. With the false teachers that dominate mainstream media such as Joel Osteen and Rick Warren I fail to understand why, as Christians, which I am sure you are, we would take Washer to task for preaching repentance.
Derl:
Paul Washer’s Calvinist/Lordship “Salvation” preaching absolutely decimates assurance of salvation. As with every LS preacher (Chan, Piper, Platt, Keller, Stearns, et. al.), Washer’s teaching places the burden of maintaining one’s salvation upon the individual, not upon God, where it should remain (John 10:27-30).
See the article:
http://expreacherman.com/2012/08/08/paul-washer-redefines-the-plan-of-salvation-obliterating-assurance-of-salvation/
{{sigh}}
Derl, Washer does teach that Jesus is essential to salvation. He also teaches that Jesus isn’t enough.
Please read “The Gospel” booklet that I linked above. That is truth.
Derl: “As Christians we have sin and temptations but we should be struggling to overcome them through Christ and His blood.”
What if you haven’t struggled “enough”? Then you are not saved? Is that how it works for you? That won’t work at all with the Lord (Romans 4:5).
Here’s how it works in the Bible: I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, who died for our sins, resurrected from death, and I know that I’m forgiven all sins (Acts 10:43) and going to heaven (1 John 5:13).
Derl,
The problem you would run into with your logic is:How many sins could a believer commit before he is considered carnal? One, two, three or more? Many believers were told in the Bible that they were carnal. The fact is that the believer can choose to walk in the flesh or the Spirit at anytime. A believer never has a good reason to walk in the flesh and but there is nothing that says that he can’t ever. To say so would be to advocate that one can be practically sinless this side of heaven. In reality we are position-ally sinless as believers due to the blood of Christ covering all (past, present, or future) of our sin.
The problem with Washer’s version of repentance during conversion is that he advocates that that repentance means turning from one’s sins. However repentance needed during conversion is a change of mind relating to the gospel and believing Christ alone as Savior. It is basically a change from unbelief to belief. To add in costs for discipleship, repentance from sin, sorrow for sins, submitting to Christ’s Lordship, swearing allegiance to Christ, etc., is to pervert the gospel with man’s additions.
I am in a real confusion. I am almost going crazy in search of salvation. I have been seeking for ten years but no difference.
Minlal, (From Europe)
Welcome. Sorry you are confused about the security of salvation. You said, on your Gravitar signature, the following: We are born for Christ; we are to live for Christ; and we are to die for Christ. Because the universe is made by Him and for Him.
Apparently you know about Jesus Christ but refuse to believe in Jesus Christ ALONE for your salvation. We suggest you read and believe the Scripture on our page, Eternal Life For You:
http://www.expreacherman.com/eternal-life-for-you/
We pray you will trust Jesus alone as your Savior.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Minlal, I am sorry to hear that. May I ask what you are doing to seek for salvation? Jack’s link above is one of the best on salvation.
Romans 6:23 says: For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Also see Eph. 2:8-9 and John 3:16. Salvation is yours if you decide to put your faith in Christ for it.
Im sorry but you are saying false things, not Paul Washer. Matthew 4:17 says: From that time Jesus began to preach and to say “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”. Revelation 3:19 says: “As many as i love, i rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.” True salvation calls for repentance, it is all through the bible, i only picked out two verses from many that mention repentance. We are saved by God’s grace but we also need to repent from our sins. Jesus says so in the bible. And He also says in 1 john 2:5 “but whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.”
Emily,
Welcome, we are happy you found ExPreacherMan.com
You have quoted verses in the Bible using the words “repent” and “Repentance” but apparently you misunderstand the meaning of the word. “Repent” (“Metanoeo” in the Greek) means to “Change one’s mind or think differently” about the subject at hand (in salvation, that subject is Jesus Christ). Deceitful, unknowing or ignorant men have changed the meaning of the word to the Dictionary definition, the vile idea that one must “turn from sin” to be saved or stay saved. That is NOT God’s Grace but man’s works (which cannot save). It is NOT the Gospel and is accursed.
The phrase “repent of or turn from sin” to be saved in nowhere in the KJV Bible. Yes, that phrase is in the more liberal, perverted “modern” versions of the Bible — but again, man has tried to push his own preconceived ideas — not Biblical doctrine.
We plead with you to think carefully about what you wrote: “We are saved by God’s grace (YES, TRUE) but we also need to repent from our sins (WORKS - False).
We as Believers are pleaded with and encouraged throughout the Bible that we SHOULD walk in righteousness but never to gain or keep our salvation (which is secured by God’s Grace alone). Ephesians 2:10
I suggest you use this search link to the word “Repent” on our web site — Read the articles and see if you understand.
http://www.expreacherman.com/?s=repentance
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
On becoming a Christian, Paul Washer says,
Anyone that thinks they need to repent of all their sins to be saved, will always (coincidentally?) have a standard of repenting of all sins that puts them in the positive category, and everyone else in the negative. How convenient.
Haven’t yet met a person that believes that persuasion, that has the guts to declare themselves unsaved due to the fact that they still sin and haven’t (and never will) reach sinless perfection.
True, bro. Abe, just like it is rare indeed to find a Calvinist that believes he or she is not one of the elect.
Biblical GRACE is God’s undeserved, unmerited, and unearned favor. I am saved by God’s FREE GRACE GIFT gift alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. (Romans 6:23; Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:8-9).
Negatively, Jesus paid in full our debt of ALL past, present and future sins. Positively, Jesus clothes us with HIS righteousness. Thus, in Christ, we are judicially perfect in God’s eyes.
“Turning from sin” and “surrender to God” as a CONDITION of salvation implies reformation or penance as a condition of salvation, thereby ADDING more than what God requires, that is, simply receiving the undeserved free GIFT of eternal life by faith.
Repentance from sin and good works should follow AFTER eternal life salvation.
Emily, welcome. Please read the link below on the Biblical meaning of repentance. I used to believe what you do, and that is what most of the churches teach. But, a couple of years ago, I trusted in Christ alone.
Salvation is not a trade for promising to be good. It is a gift.
http://www.cleargospel.org/booklet.php?b_id=3&i_id=38&s=2
It’s hard for me to imagine John having once believed, and even defending, the oft mis-taught definition of repentance, reminding me that unless someone is graciously shown how this most common error has dominated most people’s mindset, how then can one be expected to know otherwise?
Emily, I’m sorry for assuming you were here to pick a fight, and throwing at you my callous remark.
I hope you will look into the links provided within Jack and John’s comments, and accept the freeing, good news contained within them.
Pearl, I once believed the LS lie, but all it did was make me think that I somehow wasn’t cut out to be a Christian, because I could never “stick with it” for very long.
It was such a relief to finally understand the Gospel, unfettered by any of the LS garbage, and trust in Christ’s faithfulness, rather than mine.
Maybe Paul Washer teachings are wrong and he is not preaching the True Gospel but can someone please explain to me what the True Gospel is?
And I don’t want answers like ‘If you receive Jesus as your Saviour then you are saved and now you can live the plan God had for your life and that’s what is all about’ because I’ve been going to church for the past 6 years and all I’ve been hearing it’s that kind of language but I still don’t see God in it. When I was desperately praying to God for an answer I have no idea how I ended up in one of Paul Washer’s sermons. That night I cried out asking God if what this man was saying was true and for the first time in a long time I felt God so close and after that, I was so hungry for Him, I loved studying the bible cuz it made sense now. Praying became so much easier and I can now finally fear the Lord. God used this man to open my eyes because it is not through man that men get saved, it’s through God’s power and love. God bless you all!
Welcome Aguillitos!
Thanks for commenting today.
Jack Weaver, the founder of this site, has written a clear and succinct presentation of the true gospel. Please click on the following:
http://expreacherman.com/eternal-life-for-you/
We also have more articles of expose’ on Paul Washer at this site (go to the search bar). He preaches a type of message that will leave the listener ever in anguish, never having the assurance of salvation in Jesus Christ that God wants Christians to possess (true salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is eternal—Ephesians 2:8-9; Acts 16:30-31; John 3:16-18; 1 John 5:11-13—God does the keeping: John 10:27-30; Romans 8:38-39).
Thanks again for writing,
Bruce
Read here: {Link removed by Administrator}
Adrian,
Welcome— FYI we do not include links to folks who supposedly explain Lordship Salvation who, themselves, are preachers of Lordship Salvation.
We have many articles on LS which we have been publishing for years. We understand completely.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
General comment regarding Calvinist and/or LS “sermons”:
Recently there have been several individuals who have attempted to post at Expreacherman.com who have written lengthy diatribes preaching Calvinism and Lordship “Salvation” as well as the teachings of promoters of these false teachings. These individuals have had no desire for honest discussion or debate; therefore, their comments were not posted. Expreacherman.com does not exist for the purpose of being a open blackboard for the promotion of views contrary to the clear, straightforward Free Grace Gospel of the Bible (Ephesians 2:8-9; Acts 16:30-31; John 3:16-18; John 6:29, 40; John 11:25-26; 1 Cor. 15:1-8; 1 John 5: 10-13). However, if someone has an honest question or a brief point to make, for the purpose of a genuine inquiry or discussion, that is acceptable.
SEE COMMENT RULES
Thanks for your vigilance Bruce!
It amazes me that the Calvinist/LS crowd is not content with the thousands of websites that promote their false gospels, and that they feel compelled to crash Expreacherman.com.
For anyone honestly seeking the truth, here it is:
http://expreacherman.com/eternal-life-for-you/
Eternal life must be received as a gift, or not at all:
Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Ephesians 2:8-9: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
We can do nothing to add to the finished work of Christ. We cannot help Jesus save us by our good intentions, resolutions, “turning over a new leaf”, resolving to turn from our sins, obeying the Ten Commandments, being sorry for our sins, confessing our sins, putting Christ on the “throne of our lives”, following Christ, serving Christ, giving money to the church, going to church, becoming a member of a church, getting baptized, participating in the Lord’s supper, walking an aisle, saying a prayer, publicly confessing Christ, etc.
If you believe that ANY of the above are necessary conditions for (or the automatic result of) receiving eternal life, than you are not trusting in Christ alone.
Thanks John, well said!
Together for souls,
Bruce
excellent article …. thank you
Steve H,
Welcome.. glad to have you visit.
We especially appreciate your ability to discern false teachers.
Comeback often!!
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Eternal Life for you FREE
http://expreacherman.com/eternal-life-for-you/