The Emerging Emergent Church

From The Berean Call newsletter, September 2007 issue is an article on “Weaning Evangelicals Off the Word – Part 3” It is interesting in that it names names and organizations who are involved in the “Emerging Church Movement” and enumerates the errors that are “emerging.” This is almost the article in its entirety however there is a link at the end so you may go and check out the full content and footnotes. I highly recommend that, while you are visiting The Berean Call, you will subscribe to their excellent, accurate and informative email Newsletter for the discerning Christian.

I apologize for the length of this article but it is well worth the read. My emphasis is in bold text.

UPDATE: The more I contemplate these errors of the Emergent Church, the more it appears that the ECM’s progression into liberal theology will translate into a liberal political mindset. This, in turn, has or will impact the foundation of our wonderful America, which was formed on the Judeo-Christian ethic of an all powerful God Who has spoken..

The previous two parts of th[e] series made some observations that should be of great concern to those who consider themselves Bible-believing Christians. Paul warned that there would come a time when “sound doctrine” (2 Timothy 4:3,4) would give way to what “seemeth right unto a man” (Proverbs 14:12) in determining what is true. There will be apostate “teachers” who advance an experiential mode that panders to the lusts of the flesh, promoting self-serving “fables” or myths. Furthermore, these “deceitful workers” and lying “ministers of righteousness” (2 Corinthians 11:13,15) would draw upon the teachings of “seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.” (1 Timothy 4:1) Paul certainly had such teachers in mind as he warned the Ephesian elders that after his departing “grievous wolves” would enter among them and teach “perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.” (Acts 20: 29,30) There is no doubt that these verses are being fulfilled in our day.

Although there are far too many examples of apostasy influencing the church today to cite in this brief series of articles, there is one spurious trend that encompasses nearly all of what the above verses address. It’s called the Emerging Church Movement (ECM). The ECM is a development among evangelicals that appears to have some worthwhile goals: 1) It professes to speak to today’s culture about the relevancy of Christianity and the value of the gospel of Jesus Christ; and 2) It desires to keep young evangelicals continuing in the faith. The movement involves a number of churches (mostly non-denominational), some supportive ministries and parachurch organizations, and the support of a number of prominent evangelical leaders and authors.

The ECM has no official organization or leadership, although some of its adherents have “emerged” as recognized leaders and spokesmen. For many of those helping to promote the movement, their motivation to “try something different” grew out of the frustration of their own very limited success in evangelizing and discipling young people. Some of the leaders were in seeker-sensitive and purpose-driven churches, and they saw firsthand that their church-growth marketing schemes were not effective for drawing those in their late teens, 20s, and early 30s. The main fare of most consumer-driven churches features contemporary music with shallow, repetitive choruses, topical 30-minutes-or-less sermons (mostly psychology-based), a host of social programs to attract the lost (and the fleshly nature of Christians), and “Bible studies” that address everything but the Bible (see “Consumer Christianity I & II”, TBC, 2/05 , 3/05 ). For a surprising number of young adults, that was a spiritual turnoff.

In his book The Emergent Church (with contributions and endorsement by Rick Warren), Dan Kimball relates his own breakthrough in overcoming the frustrating experiences in trying to motivate the young people in the evangelical church where he was youth pastor. He tells about watching a concert on the youth-oriented MTV network late one night that was a candlelit, all-acoustic performance. Recognizing that MTV certainly knows its audience and the youth culture, he refashioned his church’s youth room into a subdued, “catacombish,” candlelit environment and had the worship band use acoustic guitars, forgoing their usual flashing light show and loud electric music. He was delighted by the reaction of one usually unresponsive teen who said, “I like this. This was really spiritual.”

That was an epiphany for Kimball. As he expanded the service with what he considered more “authentic Christian” elements and liturgy, it attracted hundreds, young and old alike. He is convinced he’s found what the church of today needs: “As the emerging church returns to a rawer and more vintage form of Christianity, we may see explosive growth much like the early church did.”

On the contrary, the “explosive growth” in the early church came from an approach that is almost nonexistent in the ECM. Peter’s confrontational address to the crowd on Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 is directly at odds with the modus operandi of the emergent leaders. In the power of the Holy Spirit, Peter’s preaching brought conviction of sin, repentance, and belief; 3,000 came to Christ that day. Kimball’s “vintage form of Christianity,” featuring rituals, ceremony, candles, incense, prayer stations, and images to create a spiritually experiential atmosphere for evangelicals is “vintage” only in the sense that it is an imitation of the later unbiblical Eastern Orthodox and medieval Roman Catholic liturgies. The early New Testament church knew nothing of this idolatrous and sense-oriented worship.

Ironically, emergent churches around the world, in their attempt to “reconstruct” the church, are passing each other like ships in the night. Kimball’s efforts at spiritual stimulation by introducing to young evangelicals the liturgical bells and smells of Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, and high-church Episcopal and Presbyterian rituals, stands in contradiction to some European cathedrals and churches going emergent. Europeans are trying to revive their congregations, deadened by centuries of imagery and ritual, by covering their gothic interiors with decorated drapery, exchanging the organ and traditional hymns for electric guitars and contemporary choruses, and adding throw pillows for comfortable seating to create a seeker-friendly environment. These churches are abandoning the very things that are “spiritually” alluring to American emergent evangelicals. Regarding both sensual approaches, Scripture tells us, “the flesh profiteth nothing.”

In reading the works of the ECM leaders, we would agree with many of their criticisms of current Christianity. There is plenty to oppose as apostasy and the abandonment of the Word increases in Christendom. The ECM’s corrections, however, rather than having restorative value for the church, are just as contrary to the Scriptures. Even worse, they go far beyond subtly “weaning evangelicals off the Word” to rendering the Bible and its doctrines as the enemy when it comes to drawing the world in general and, specifically, our postmodern culture, to the love of Jesus.

The Emergent Church Movement claims to desire—above all things—to show the love and life of Christ to a culture that is distrustful of the Christianity it perceives as oppressive and absolutist. We’re assured by ECM writers that “numbers of postmoderns are attracted to Jesus but detest His church” and can therefore be reached by the emerging church approach. It professes to be more amenable to the culture, more viable in its practice of Christianity, and truer to what Jesus had in mind for His church on earth.

Admirable—but let’s see how true it is to the Scriptures. As Isaiah exhorted, “To the law and to the testimony [i.e., God’s Word]: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20).

First of all, one has to wonder what a postmodern—a person characterized chiefly by his or her general disdain for authority and absolutes, particularly those dealing with moral issues and religion—thinks about this “Jesus” to whom he or she is supposedly drawn. The critical question is “Jesus who?” Is it the biblical Jesus they like, the one who declared absolutely, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me” (John 14:6)? What about the authoritarian Jesus, who announced, “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love” (John 15:10)? His words weren’t referring only to the Ten Commandments but rather to every instruction He gave. Is that the Jesus a postmodern desires? What about the Jesus who gave mankind an ultimatum: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him” (John 3:36)?

The biblical Jesus certainly does not accommodate postmodernism, which is one more example of humanity’s rebellion against its Creator. The good news is that Jesus offers deliverance from the delusion of postmodernism, as well as all the other man-centered isms: “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31,32). The bad news is that the emerging church approach attempts to accommodate Jesus and the Scriptures (actually “another Jesus” and a corrupted and emasculated Word) to our postmodern culture.

Although some regard the Emerging Church Movement as nothing more than a passing spiritual fad among young evangelicals, its potential for shipwrecking the faith of our next generation (should the Lord not yet return for His saints) is staggering. Here are just a few of the faith-destroying beliefs as espoused in the writings of the emergent leaders. First of all, foundational to the ECM is the subversion of the Bible. It’s akin to Satan’s scheme to destabilize Eve’s trust in what God commanded: “Yea, hath God said…?” (Genesis 3:1). They give lip service to the importance of God’s Word while undermining its inerrancy, authority, and sufficiency.

Rob Bell writes in Velvet Elvis, following 22 pages of weakening the authority of the Bible (making statements such as “It is possible to make the Bible say whatever we want it to, isn’t it?” and “With God being so massive and awe-inspiring and full of truth, why is his book capable of so much confusion?”): “[L]et’s make a group decision to drop once and for all the Bible-as-owner’s-manual metaphor [i.e., God’s specific instructions for mankind]. It’s terrible. It really is….We have to embrace the Bible as the wild, uncensored, passionate account it is of experiencing the living God.”1 No! “Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Peter 1:21).

His view, common to most emergent writers, is that the key to the authority of Scripture is one’s interpretation, and that is most authoritative when the interpretation takes place in a community and validated by a “group decision”: “Community, community, community. Together with others, wrestling and searching and engaging the Bible as a group of people hungry to know God in order to follow God.”2

Although we find thousands of times throughout the Bible clear, direct, and absolute commands prefaced by phrases such as “Thus saith the Lord” and “The word of the Lord came to me,” we’re now told that understanding and obedience to what God said are subject to a community’s interpretation. Consequently, ECM churches disdain preaching and authoritative teaching, yet they delight in discussion, causing some to dump the pulpit in favor of a dialogue-led Starbucks environment. As the goals of the community change, we’re told the interpretation may also change.

The claim that the ECM approach has not jettisoned sound doctrine is either a delusion or an outright deception. This becomes clear when one asks for a biblical position on an issue. Kristen Bell acknowledges in a Christianity Today emerging church article, “I grew up thinking that we figured out the Bible…that we knew what it means. Now I have no idea what most of it means, and yet I feel like life is big again—like life used to be black and white, and now it’s in color.”3 Brian McLaren, the most prominent of the emergent leaders, echoes Bell’s “doctrine” of avoidance regarding what the Bible says about homosexuality:

Perhaps we need a five-year moratorium on making [doctrinal] pronouncements. In the meantime, we’ll practice prayerful Christian dialogue, listening respectfully, disagreeing agreeably. When decisions need to be made, they’ll be admittedly provisional. We’ll keep our ears attuned to scholars in biblical studies, theology, ethics, psychology, genetics, sociology, and related fields. Then in five years, if we have clarity, we’ll speak; if not, we’ll set another five years for ongoing reflection.4

TBC has received numerous letters from parents and evangelical pastors who find their young people seeking out emergent churches for the “new” experiences, which they offer in abundance: religious art (primarily impressionistic images of “Jesus”), “biblical” films, rituals based upon Catholic/Orthodox liturgy, community, personal relationships, contemplative spirituality and mysticism (some include yoga), Bible dialogues, ecumenical interaction with “people of faith,” a social gospel, plans to save the planet, restore the kingdom, and so forth.

Regarding the seductive nature of such things, few evangelicals, young or old, have a defense. Too many function as biblical illiterates, meaning they know some things about the Bible and are capable of reading it but simply haven’t made any effort, outside of following along with their pastor’s teaching on Sundays. They are the spiritual con man’s delight.

Satan’s seduction of Eve began subtly, “Yea hath God said?” It was a confusion tactic, setting her up to believe his lie and reject what God had said: “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.” That was his punch line to destroy the human race. Eve fell for it; Adam went along.
One finds a strikingly similar approach in the writings of the ECM leaders in regard to destroying faith in the gospel: Brian McLaren leads with doubts about what God had said:

The church latched on to that old doctrine of original sin like a dog to a stick, and before you knew it, the whole gospel got twisted around it. Instead of being God’s big message of saving love for the whole world, the gospel became a little bit of secret information on how to solve the pesky legal problem of original sin.5

He says elsewhere, “I don’t think we’ve got the gospel right yet. What does it mean to be saved?…None of us have arrived at orthodoxy.”

British emergent leader and Zondervan author Steve Chalke delivers the punch line that unabashedly rejects the essential gospel belief that Christ paid the full penalty for the sins of mankind necessary to satisfy divine justice. Incredibly, he condemns that doctrine as a form of “cosmic child abuse” and a “twisted version of events morally dubious and a huge barrier to faith.”6 This is where these emergent pied pipers, wittingly or unwittingly, are seductively leading our youth.

Hopefully, the above will move you to prayer and action regarding the biblical strengthening of your own children and the youth in your fellowship. If you need more motivation (this brief article allowed me to give you only the tip of the “emerging” iceberg), see our TBC Extra page (page eight) with multiple emergent leaders’ quotes helpfully compiled in Roger Oakland’s latest book Faith Undone: The emerging church…a new reformation or an end-time deception?

[The Berean Call, — Weaning Evangelicals Off The Word]

Click here if you want to know God’s way to eternal life.

21 responses to “The Emerging Emergent Church

  1. Sandi,

    Thanks for dropping by.. I am glad you agree.

    I like your Blog and have put it on my feed notifier.

    In Christ eternally,


  2. LOVED this! (((((HUGS))))) sandi

  3. Sweet Leilani,

    Your story breaks my heart. However, it is encouraging to see you trying to find a good, Gospel preaching, Biblical church with a ministry to your age group. A good Bible church should have ministries directed to Young Adults.

    Your Pastor’s furtively looking around “for the next person/family” is a “Pastor problem” and may not be the church’s. This happens. I have even caught myself doing the same as folks were leaving the service. But there is no excuse. However, if you have issues that need discussion and the Pastor refuses, perhaps you could discuss these with the Pastor’s wife or the wife of an Elder. They might bring it up to the Pastor.

    I am convinced, and here I sound like a broken DVD (record for you oldies), the solution is for any church to develop a sound, urgent and passionate love for the lost and a yearning to share the clear Gospel with them. Our every action, message and thought should be in that direction. Such a devotion drives believers to God’s Word. Without that love and passion, a church becomes dead, the people lifeless and it is no wonder young people want nothing to do with it.

    You quoted in your previous comment, Philippians 1:18 “…… whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.” Your quote is true and we all understand that “in pretense” is not the prescribed method of Gospel preaching. We are to strive legitimately, according to God’s Word. [2 Timothy 2:5]

    Yes, there may be some good in ECM churches but one wonders why we must take the bad with the good.

    I praise the Lord for every soul that honestly comes to Christ under any circumstance.. but often the method becomes the message and the glory of the Savior is diminished.

    We will certainly pray for you. Please stay in touch.


  4. Hello again ExP,

    Thank you for your words. I agree with you that sensory and emotionally focused worship cannot be used as a substitue for sound doctinal teaching. That seems to be your (and other posters) major problem with the EC, and I would agree entirely. Like I said, I’m very new to my understanding of the EC. I know my two days of research cannot compare with years of study, but from what little I’ve seen it seems like any other denomination – it gets some things really right, and some things really wrong.

    What I’m trying to do is figure out the parts it seems to be getting right, namely attracting my age group, and figuring out how that can be translated to the church as a whole. It is one of my biggest frustrations and deepest griefs that my generation is almost entirely absent from the church. Moreso, that the church seems to be okay with that.

    Many people my age don’t feel comfortable or welcome in a traditional church. Church is for families. Young, single people just don’t have a place. I remember one time trying to talk to my pastor about an issue while he constantly looked around for the next person/family to talk to. It was as if I wasn’t important enough to him. Like most people my age, he probably assumed that I wouldn’t be back the next week anyway, so why give me any of his time. I’m still at that church three years later and i still can’t get him to give me good eye contact. But I love so many other things about the church that keep me there. And I wonder, if I have issues like that at a church where I’m an active member, what chance is there for a young single visitor to feel welcome? Someone who doesn’t have quite the foundation or passion, but perhaps just an inkling that they need God in their lives, where are they to go and feel welcomed and loved? That’s what the EC has provided. If traditional churches could do the same, and I wish they would, then maybe my generation wouldn’t need the EC.


  5. Just a Mom,

    You, as bro. Jack & TMW, are a blessing to me. My heart goes out to you & your family, but remember the Words of Jesus (Mt.5:10-12)!! I distinctly remember a time my church let me go, can you believe this, because I used too much Scripture in my sermons? Yes, that is what they told me. But, after that time, when my sweet wife & I were out of work & with no church, the LORD provided so wonderfully. I could go on forever about His wonderful grace! But, the greatest thing of all is that when it all happened, in the midst of that hard time, the Lord gave me a peace like I’ve hardly ever known. The rebellious Israelites in Psalm 78:19 ask a very impudent and sarcastic question of the Lord: “Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?” My answer: YES!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bro. Jack, you asked if I could name names about free gracers falling for this EC stuff, I will email you with that. Still praying for you bro!

  6. Just a Mom,

    Yes, your comment makes a lot of sense! You are so right — and so brave in the Lord for taking a stand in your church based on your right understanding of the Scripture. So much for the ECM wanting to “get along.” Their idea of “getting along” is good for them as long as everyone goes along with ECM!

    However, being on the sidewalk in the Sunshine of our Savior is better than wallowing in the spiritual darkness of a church in the gutter. Congratulations!

    Isn’t it wonderful and exciting to know your children “walk in the truth?” I pray they will grow in the spiritual legacy you and your husband have given them.

    My readers (including Dan Kimball) needed to hear your story.

    Thank for the exhortation to “speak the truth in love.” Often it is difficult when we see spiritual charlatans who would do damage to my Savior and “the faith once delivered to the Saints.”

    In Christ eternally,


  7. Hello there Jack,

    I found your blog by doing a blog search for Dan Kimball. I am just a mom…. a normal Christian mom of 3 and grandmother of 1 that became alarmed and concerned about programs being promoted at my conservative Bible Church of 12 years….. When I brought these concerns to the elders of my church home… We found ourselves “dismembered” …. ouch!… that’s right… out on the side walk!

    This movement is not a fad. It is a cancer and most Christians are asleep…. Yaaaawnnnn…

    I believe we are in the last days before Christ’s return. I still can not believe what happened… but, I am also excited because I have never read my Bible so much. When I read passages before… never in my lifetime have I read the Bible with such enthusiasm and found it’s pages like reading the daily newspaper. I also keep my eye on Israel.

    For the last year and a half I have been researching this whole mess…. Emergent or emerging leaders do not tell the truth…. deception abounds.

    There have always been false religions, kooky people, ministries that are more about them-selves than for God….. but, what concerns me about this
    movement I suppose is that every good Christian kid that I know ( including Sunday school kids and children of Christian parents we know) are being sucked ( I don’t like this work… but it works the best!) into this garbage… and most disturbing is that their own parents are buying the books.. Velvet Elvis, etc. ( my own children are 18, 25, and 28 and praise the Lord, they see this deception)

    I get physically sick reading about the Emerging/Emergent church…. this is an offense to my Savior, Jesus Christ.

    Roger Oakland’s book, Faith Undone, is the best so far. I found The Berean Call to be truthful. I think Dan Kimball just does not want to be found out.

    So I encourage you to speak the truth in love and expose this darkness.

    I apologize for my incomplete sentences and hope that some of the above made sense.

    Thank you for loving Jesus,

    Just a Mom

  8. Yes Dr. Kathy,

    I appreciate your prayers. I have read the scripture on healing and fully understand that physical healing is not in the Atonement.

    There are times when the Lord gives believers a “thorn in the side” as an opportunity to share with others our faith that is in Jesus Christ alone for our salvation.

    In Christ happily and eternally,


  9. SL,

    Thanks fore dropping by.. I sincerely appreciate your thoughts. Please drop by again.

    You said, “The ‘spiritually experiential atmosphere’ and ‘sense-oriented worship’ reaches my generation (the college to 30’s group) in a way that traditional teachings no longer do. It brings people into the church who would otherwise never go.”

    Maybe the younger generation should consider this; the Biblical method of soulwinning is to personally lead a person to Christ and THEN bring them into the church. Or, if the church is a clear Gospel preaching, soulwinning-emphasis church at every service, then invite them to come to church with you. Either way, let God’s Word and His Holy Spirit convince them of their need for the Savior in church or out. A true believer is then more amenable to learning from God’s Word without the need for bells and whistles.

    God’s Word is powerful in itself. The “spiritually experiential atmosphere” and “sense-oriented worship” is a modern method which is a turning away from sound Biblical teaching and doctrine. Salvation is not a “feel good” method of group therapy, but one’s personal faith or belief in the Savior, understanding from God’s Word that Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection is all sufficient.

    You also said, “I believe as long as they are sincere in their search for God that He will be faithful in leading them towards His truth.”

    Let me observe, God is ALWAYS leading unbelievers and believers towards His Truth. Our goal is be sure we don’t distract or be distracted from the choice we must make to either believe His truth or not. Sincerity is no substitute for the Truth in Christ.

    Proverbs 16:25
    “There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”

    John 14:6
    “Jesus saith unto him, I am THE WAY, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.”

    In Christ eternally,


  10. Dr. Kathy Joyce Abbott and Stella Pacific

    Hello sweet one —

    Jesus is still alive and healing everyone who comes to him in faith. The failure is not his, it is ours. “He healed all who came to him.”

    Have you studied, in depth, the scriptures on healing and faith? Print them all out and read them.

    I have been healed many times, often daily, by the love of my Jesus connected to the faith without which I cannot please God.

    I stand with you in absolute faith that God’s healing of your lungs and eyes is for you. See yourself healed and praise him. My gratitude goes to him for you now.

    Your loving sister,

    Dr. Kathy

  11. And SL, there are billions headed for Hell who are very sincere!
    Do you love them enough to point toward Christ?


  12. SL-I have in my archives a Youtube video, about 11 minutes long, the intent may be good on your part, but the video showed the downward slide, cussing, people so lost in feel-good ‘religion’ that they were incoherent. One man spoke for a couple of minutes and never did make sense!
    They were leaving Jesus Christ outside the door, Revelations 3:14-22. One of the men that spoke looked like a satanist priest, and frankly, I got spiritual shivers from him.
    We are to love one another as HE loves us, but love does not preclude calling to account!
    See if you can find D. A. Carson’s book, ‘Becoming Conversant With The Emerging Church…Understanding a movement and it’s implications”
    Then go back and read Revelations and realize that there is a movement afoot to bring every religion on the planet under 1 roof, i.e. the twaddle that mohammadism is ‘Abrahamic’, it’s not, it is rooted in Babylon and moon worship.
    We are in the Great Falling Away as indicated by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 7.
    Please do not be deceived by ‘feelings’ and easy-believism. They can become quicksand under your feet! Emotions color our world, they should not be the basis of Eternally significant decisions!
    Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!


  13. Hello expreacherman,

    I greatly appreciate you posting this article. I have just recently discovered the term “emergent church” through Rob Bell’s works and other various blogs, and now I can’t seem to get away from it. I was a little confused as to what exactly it was and I think this provided me with a good stepping stone.

    I may be one of those youths the author fears for, though I would consider myself to be more Biblically literate than the author assumes my age group to be. I see the emergent church (as described above) as serving a purpose. The “spiritually experiential atmosphere” and “sense-oriented worship” reaches my generation (the college to 30’s group) in a way that traditional teachings no longer do. It brings people into the church who would otherwise never go. The hope is that once they are in the church they will gradually mature from these more superficial forms of worship to deeper, more intellectual forms. I believe as long as they are sincere in their search for God that He will be faithful in leading them towards His truth.

    The function of the emergent church is that it gets my generation to a point where they want to search for God in the first place. Like Paul says, “wheter in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice” (phil 1:18 NKJ).


  14. Hello Dan,

    Thanks for your note.

    You certainly may call your movement whatever you wish. My article was not necessarily directed toward you or your book but as one among many who are promoting the EC Movement.

    My problem with emergent, emerging (whatever you wish) is the ecumenism, non-separation, doctrinal fluidity and mysticism rampant in the movement. I have seen such trends develop in friends and family who have been tempted in the way of ECM, Rick Warren, Brian McLaren and others.

    The links you included were not convincing and did not change my mind about your position.

    It troubles me when you write on your web site that you consider as non-core doctrines:

    *A Dispensational teaching of the Bible – which I see as a prime method and only way of teaching and understanding Scripture, past and future events.

    *You seem not to care whether a person is a Calvinist (God chose me, but you have no choice if He didn’t choose you. It is hell for you) or Armenian (lose your salvation). I believe one who truly believes the Bible would be neither a Calvinist, (one to five points), nor an Armenian.

    Proper doctrine matters!

    In Christ eternally by God’s Grace and His allowing me to make Him my choice,

    ExP(Jack) Weaver

  15. Incidentally, Dan Kimball saw my Blog and wrote to me personally (Comment 2 above – delayed) what he claimed to be corrections about TBC’s articles.

    None of his “corrections” seemed relevant to me except where TBC called his book, “The Emergent Church.” He said his book is named the Emerging Church.”

    The ECM folks try diligently to keep their altar shiny bright and new.


  16. Hi David,

    I am surprised to hear that some Free Gracers are falling for the ECM. But after all, it is seductive, to dangle the concept of a larger and more “active” church.

    Can you name names?

    in Christ eternally,


  17. You know bro. Jack,

    One of the things that bothers me most is that there are some in “Free Grace” that seem to be falling for this movement. Thank you for keeping the light of truth on the issue. Praying for you both.

  18. It’s a good way to see if I’m still in the world! LOL! Wave that old emergent conversation carrot around…
    Glad Shirley is doing well! Now you on the other hand…you better get better, or I’ll come looking for you with my smallest cast iron skillet! And fry your grits for you…and green tomatoes…
    G*D does seem to be getting HIS point across in Central America and Mexico this year. Not much of anybody is paying attention, though. Wonder if the War of Gog and Magog will ring any bells…exciting times for sure!


  19. Hello TMW,

    I thought this article, even though lengthy, would elicit a response from you.

    We are OK. Sweet Wife is healthy but I’m trying to recover from several health setbacks of late (lungs and eyes). Appreciate your prayers.

    In Christ, ExP(Jack)

  20. (This is a comment by Dan Kimball the man mentioned in the article above. Regretfully, because of so many links, his comment was trapped by my Spam Catcher and delayed. Here is the full text of his comment/email. I answered his note with an email to him — which I will post below.)

    I read the posting of the article on the emergent/emerging church. I appreciate your concern for historic orthodox doctrines. I did want to let you know that your article did have several things incorrect you may want to be aware of. I did email the author of the article to let him know as well.

    here are some postings I would encourage you to read.

    this is about the difference of “emerging” and “emergent” (and by the way, the author of the article had the title of the book wrong, which does make a difference as “emerging” and “emergent” have different meanings and origins.)

    and also written by someone on John Piper’s staff:

    You also may find these postings helpful which address some of the very errors that were made in the generalizations of what the emerging church is and about doctrine.

    If you have any questions, please feel free to let me know.

    Hope this helps!

    Peace in Jesus,


  21. It is an abomination, isn’t it? I have ended up not listening to many Christian teachers and apologists anymore BECAUSE of this doctrine of demons!
    And sadly, so many children of great Christian men have gone this route, and their father’s say NOTHING!
    Franklin Graham, Ryan Dobson, so many…
    And rick warren is right in the thick of it with his, Purposeless Drivel Lies! It’s the same old satanic trick of getting the focus off of G*D and onto ANYTHING ELSE! Ugh!
    Well rick warren and all the rest can’t save you, but Jesus Christ has been manifesting HIMSELF in many out of the way places, even in Saudi Arabia!
    We may have become degenerate, but HIS Church is still marching on!

    BTW-How are you and Shirley doing?