Lordship “Salvation” — Willful Naiveté ?

By Jack Weaver and our fellow Administrator, John

We will borrow some ideas from a Conservative friend’s web site. He applied the thought to politics, but we see some parallels between the politically naïve and the theologically naïve.  In both cases, otherwise intelligent people seem to park their brains at the door and believe astonishingly stupid propositions.  For lack of a better term, we will call it “willful naiveté.”

In politics, willful naiveté can be seen in people who hold advanced degrees in economics that have convinced themselves that 1+1 = 3, because it fits their political narrative. In the theological realm, there are scores of prominent “educated” theologians who are teaching their theological narrative, the lie of Lordship “salvation”, to vulnerable non-believers and believers alike.

Lordship “salvation” (LS) is the unsupportable belief that the PERFORMANCE of good works, the PROMISE of good works, or the EVIDENCE of good works MUST accompany faith in Christ in order to make that faith result in eternal life.

LS arrived on the scene just after the start of the church.  It was first manifested in false teachers who claimed one must be circumcised – in addition to trusting in Christ as Savior – in order to have eternal life.

Acts 15:1:  “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved”

LS has shown up in various forms ever since, and has dominated popular Christendom through the centuries.  And, the raging wave of LS continues to invade and overtake our Grace Faith communities.

We see stunning examples of “willful naiveté” in those who advocate LS.  The Bible has more than 150 verses that state that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.  See article linked for more information: Believers Justification << Link

However, this overwhelming biblical evidence does not daunt LS advocates.  Instead, they lean on their own understanding of certain biblical “proof texts”, always taken out of context to support their false teaching.  Or worse, their misinterpretation of scripture leads them to believe there are biblical “paradoxes”.  For example, many LS advocates say things like “salvation is free, but it will cost you everything.”  This is non-biblical nonsense.  The fact of the matter is that there are no paradoxes in God’s Word.

LS destroys everything it touches.  It impedes the advance of the gospel, thereby keeping lost people lost; for believers who are bewitched by LS, it undermines their faith and assurance, it robs them of the power to live the Christian life, and it keeps them from a sound spiritual understanding of scripture.

LS has only two potentially “attractive” features that both appeal to the flesh.  First, it appeals to man’s pride.   One may internalize feelings of having contributed to (or merited) his salvation in some way.  He may feel like he has somehow “purified” himself.  There are side benefits, including a sense of comfort in “group think” and a sense of belonging in the ecumenical mainstream. Second, it appeals to the tribal need for an external, common enemy.  So, LS advocates make bogeymen out of proponents of salvation by Grace through faith in Christ alone.  Accordingly, they malign believers, using all sorts of pejorative language. Lordship “salvation” is very much a separate “religion,” a cult in the worst sense of those words.

LS advocates will continue to be deceived and to deceive others until the Millennium. They have successfully “converted” many into a works-based religion, false salvation and probation — which result in no salvation at all. By selling books, designing seductive web sites, producing slick YouTube videos, by infiltrating and taking over churches, religious schools, Bible colleges and seminaries, LSers have raised yet another generation of “Christians” who will continue to refuse, or fall from, God’s true Grace. They abhor the freedom and individual liberty we are to have in Christ Jesus as is so clearly delineated in God’s Word, the Bible. (John 3:16-17, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5)

Is their deception a willful naiveté or deliberate?

Our suggestion: We waste our time using secular logic on these folks, so let us use God’s Powerful Word!!! (Hebrews 4:12)  Scripture says, “Let us reason together.” However, we often find LS advocates very unreceptive to either reason or scriptural proof.  They find it virtually impossible to accept Biblical, contextual “reason.” We must continue to “earnestly contend for the Faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude 1:3) and do it Biblically. That is the goal of our ministry here at ExPreacherMan.com which, by God’s Grace, we will continue! We thank the Lord for our many friends who support this ministry by commenting here in support of God’s Biblical Grace.

Please click here >> Wiki-Index of False Teachers for our compilation of a partial index of false teachers.

The Truth of FREE Eternal Life << Click

53 responses to “Lordship “Salvation” — Willful Naiveté ?

  1. John, Jack:

    Do you have any good resources, specifically with regard to 1 John 2 – 3 (commonly cited as a proof text for Lordship Salvation)? I have some of my own observations (namely that 1) the verses in question do not directly reference justification, salvation, or eternal life, and that 2) other verses in the same letter indicate that a believer can be identified by a correct testimony concerning Christ – so it would seem that the passages in question might be referring either to specific sins, such as the denial of Christ’s bodily incarnation and resurrection, or that they are describing fruits by which we can identify and avoid false teachers), but I am interested to know if you have any stronger arguments or at least some resources that would confirm my initial evaluation.

  2. i am most troubled by those who adamantly proclaim that they do not preach works salvation and/or works to maintain salvation, while at the same time contradicting themselves, many times in subtle ways.

  3. Or are 1 John 3:9 and 3:10 speaking of imputation, as the KJV/NKJV reading might seem to indicate (since the KJV does not have the “clarifying” words “continue in”)?

  4. Excellent article brothers. Btw, i will be doing a documentary soon on Works Salvation, and i would love to use some of the information compiled in your articles– do i have your permission to do so? full credit will be given at the end of the project. One of the sisters who regularly comment on this site, has agreed to help me in this area, and i am most grateful– this is a big subject, and these articles will prove invaluable. God bless you for the work that you have done.

  5. Duane, my understanding of 1 John 3:9 is that the new man (the regenerated man, born of the Spirit) is incapable of sin, even though the old man is still sinful.

    I think the following explanation from Clear Gospel Campaign is instructive:

    Regeneration

    We believe that, upon saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, therein begetting a new man (John 3:3-6; 2nd Corinthians 5:17) which, having been begotten of God’s own “sperma” (1st John 3:9), is endowed with some of the divine characteristics of God’s own nature, including, at the very least, a holy nature incapable of sin (Ephesians 4:24; 1st John 3:9), and eternal life possessing the same incorruptible nature as the life that God himself possesses (John 3:16, 1st Peter 1:23), thereby giving those who are regenerate in Christ the right to be called the children of God (John 1:12) in a most real and literal sense.

    We believe that faith is not the product of regeneration, but rather, that faith precedes regeneration (John 1:12).

    The Two Natures

    We believe that, through the power of the Holy Spirit, the regenerate man is able to overcome his sin nature in this lifetime (Romans 6:5-19), but that the old nature of sinful man remains after regeneration, that it is at war within the members of the regenerate man, and that this battle will continue until death or rapture separates the regenerate nature from the fallen nature (Romans 7:15-25). Because of this, we believe that no man, other than Jesus Christ, has achieved, or will achieve “sinless perfection” in this lifetime, and that any man who claims to achieve sinless perfection is self-deceived (1st John 1:8). We believe that every motive and every action of all men remains tainted by sin, even after salvation through Christ (Romans 7:17). However, we believe that, because sin, both inherent and realized, is resident only in the old man (Romans 7:17) and because the regenerate man is holy and incapable of sin (1st John 3:9) that regenerate man may present works of righteousness to God that are untainted by sin in God’s sight, and therefore worthy of reward(1st Corinthians 3:11-15).

  6. Jenelle, welcome and thanks for your comment.

    We agree! We see many statements of faith that claim belief in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, then deny that claim with belief in other requirements for obtaining, keeping, or proving that one has eternal life.

  7. Duane, I don’t have any specific resources that I can recommend. However, it seems clear that 1 John 2-3 are not “tests of life” (that is, whether or not someone has eternal life), but are tests of fellowship and encouragement to deeper fellowship with Christ.

    Let’s look at a couple of examples:

    1 John 2:9: He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

    1 John 3:14-15:

    [14] We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
    [15] Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

    Yet, we see elsewhere in scripture that believers are capable of hatred and murder (as well as all other manner of sin) when they are in their flesh vs. in the Spirit:

    Galatians 5:16:25:

    [16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
    [17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    [18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    [19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
    [24] And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
    [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

    and James 4:1-4:

    [1] From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
    [2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
    [3] Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
    [4] Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

  8. Thanks John,

    This explanation makes sense to me. After referring back to the KJV / NKJV readings and the Greek, it seems to me that this could also be rendered “He who abides in Him IS NOT sinning” as the Greek simply contains the negated imperfective verb form (expressed in a single word). Explanations and translations to the effect that the meaning conveyed here is “does not persist / continue in sin” seem like potentially incorrect amplifications to me, now that I look at it.

  9. “there are scores of prominent “educated” theologians who are teaching their theological narrative, the lie of Lordship “salvation”, to vulnerable non-believers and believers alike.”

    Yes, and, also teaching it to THEMSELVES.

    The largest “church” in the world is David Yonggi Cho’s place in Seoul, South Korea. The church claims to have one million attendees, though a pastor that visited there says the number is probably actually about 400,000. That is still a heap load of tons of people of course.

    David Yonggi Cho was indicted for tax evasion, to the tune of $12 million.

    And what did David Yonggi Cho say about the matter in terms of his spiritual status?

    See this: http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/february/founder-of-worlds-largest-megachurch-convicted-cho-yoido.html

    The first statement that comes out of Cho’s mouth is, “God forbid, if God calls me back today, I will still be able to go to the Kingdom of God,”

    That’s right, folks. Cho might be going to hell. It remains to be seen.

    This is the “pastor” of the world’s biggest “church”, and he thinks he might sin his way into hell.

    The “jesus” of Cho, might be casting him into hell.

    LS strikes again.

  10. well done, loved the article, its flooding the churches and we have no choice to come out of them

  11. Thanks Mark,

    Yes we will be happy to cooperate — and have sent our note under separate cover email.

    Keep us in the loop.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  12. Reblogged this on Redeemingmoments and commented:
    Friends. Loadship has been around since the beginning. Always try to put burdens on top of the people too heavy to bear. No, I did not misspell, and Lordship does not mean that you submit to His Lordship, or any such thing. But read on…

  13. All I know is this: Either salvation is a free gift as stated in the Bible or it is not. There is no middle ground. Either simple faith in Christ is enough or it is not. There is no middle ground. Either we have eternal life in Chist that is eternal and can’t be lost or it is not and we have to maintain it. There is no middle ground. I am sick of LS teachers and their false gospel of probation salvation. Theirs is not the true Gospel that saves and those of us who believe in salvation as a free gift through faith in Christ must stand firm for the truth. I do not know if these teachers are just mistaken or are deliberate. In the end the result is the same. I thank God for a man in a church I used to attend who helped me discover the free grace gospel. Don’t be discouraged. Be faithful in season and out of season.

  14. Re-worded hopefully a little better.

    Friends. Loadship has been around since the beginning. They always try to put burdens on top of the people too heavy to bear. No, I did not misspell Loadship. We do not deny Jesus as our Lord, as the Lordship purveyors will say. But read on…

  15. Russell,

    Welcome and thanks for your encouraging comment. Most of our regulars will agree with you wholeheartedly.

    Eternal life/Salvation by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone IS the Gift of God, without question. (Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8-9)

    Our goal, by God’s Grace, Never give in, Never give up. We appreciate your helping us in this endeavor.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  16. Russell, welcome to ExP!

    I agree with your comment completely. Much of the false doctrine that we see is a denial of the doctrine of grace that the Bible so clearly teaches.

  17. All the best Mark, on your endevour to put this out, we need it badly, all the Ray Comforts and Kirk Cameron’s put out the expensive dvd’s out there, but there is no one exposing Calvanism and Lordship. Praying for you, that it gets out there. 96%of churches are this way.

  18. Russell:

    Simplicity…. You said:

    “All I know is this: Either salvation is a free gift as stated in the Bible or it is not. There is no middle ground.”

    “Either simple faith in Christ is enough or it is not. There is no middle ground.”

    “Either we have eternal life in Christ that is eternal and can’t be lost or it is not and we have to maintain it. There is no middle ground.”

    Yes, I too am ill when I see these condemning men (and women) and their probation salvation (another gospel)

    I agree, we must stand firm for the truth. When I said that very thing the other day (to a wishy washy administrator who was playing both sides of the fence in order to allow freedom of thought), her response back was to say “I don’t think any of us wakes up and thinks, I’m not going to stand firm for the truth today”… I shook my head sadly as I watched her daily compromise the truth, lukewarm in all, allowing SDA, and Jehovah’s witnesses, and W.O.F. signs and wonders teachers to give their opinion without answering firmly regarding the error from His Word. I watched her participate in a conversation about the Word and Pharisees and saw one very sound woman get taunted once again by that name-calling.

    You don’t be discouraged either! Keep coming around!

    Thank You Lord for those who do truly stand firm in love for the truth of Your Word.

  19. Sorry for not ending the italics correctly above.

  20. Mary – Mark S just did a very good expose’ on the ecumenical movement and how bad it is getting. The social gospel, unity, Lordship and reformed are the buzz words…

  21. Welcome Russel , you found an Oasis here

    Mar 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
    Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

    Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

  22. Hi Jack, John, Holly, et. al.:
    Hope you are well. Still praying for you Jack. I’m still busy with teaching my “flock” of seniors on Sundays. I just completed a series on the Rapture of the Church—went well. I also play the cello in the church orchestra and I had an article published recently in Grace in Focus magazine.

    I like your article. You said,
    “LS arrived on the scene just after the start of the church. It was first manifested in false teachers who claimed one must be circumcised – in addition to trusting in Christ as Savior – in order to have eternal life.” Very insightful observation! I think most people think that LS is a recent phenomenon but, as you rightly point out, it’s been around a long long time.

    Take care all.

  23. Bruce,

    Thanks for dropping in. All of us here at ExP do miss you and appreciate your comment. We also thank you for your past contribution to the success of ExP. Glad things are going well for you in your ministry.

    Thanks for your prayers for me — I am gradually recovering from the trauma and praying no more will be necessary. However we have been told what was done is only temporary. We live by God’s Grace!!

    Drop back by again soon.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  24. Bruce, it’s great to hear from you!

    I have continued to pray for you, your family, and your ministry.

    Please don’t be a stranger.

  25. Good to hear from you Bruce ,
    Happy to see you posting Jack and you are healing will continue to keep you in Prayer as prompted.

    LS salvation started from before the foundation of the world the spirit of it manifested in mans attempt to reach fellowship with God in his own strength.ow way Like Cain . Cain knew what was required yet done it his own way and or with the wrong attitude . The spirit of Cain is alive and well in my own personal experience’s since the Good news of Eph 2:8-9 revived my spirit.

    remember the sower of the seed parable

    Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

    Take heed friends how you hear

    Curtis

  26. I say before the foundation of the World because Jesus is not plan B , God knew mankind would need a saving redeemer for fellowship with Him .in the beloved fellowship of Father Son.

    1Jn_1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    Also see Ephesians chapter 1

    Curtis

  27. Jack, one of the more pernicious side-effects of LS is what passes in many LS churches as a “Christian testimony.”

    Rather than being focused on how one came to saving faith in Christ, the LS testimony is generally focused on how Jesus changed one’s life. They often include catch phrases like “I used to” and “I don’t anymore” and “now I.”

    These “testimonies” implicitly teach salvation by works.

    There is a great discussion of this subject in Clear Gospel’s doctrinal statement. See below:

    The Testimony

    We believe that the “Christian testimony” as practiced today has become a cancer on the church. We observe, from Scripture, the “testimony” of Paul before the multitude (Acts 21:40-22:21), before the Sanhedrin (Acts 23:1-10), before Felix (Acts 24:10-21), before Festus (Acts 25:10-11 & 19), and before Agrippa (Acts 26:1-29) included the following elements:

    a) Paul describes his religious beliefs before coming to faith in Christ, including being a Jew, a Pharisee, and one who hoped in the resurrection (Acts 22:3, Acts 26:4-5, 26:25).

    b) Paul describes his attitude and understanding of Jesus Christ before his conversion to Christianity, in that he was hostile to Christ, and a persecutor of Christians (Acts 22:4-5; Acts 26:9-12).

    c) Paul recounts the events on the Damascus Road that lead to his conversion to faith in Christ (Acts 22:6-16, Acts 26:13-16).

    d) Paul proclaims the atoning death of Jesus Christ (Acts 26:23).

    e) Paul proclaims the resurrection of Jesus Christ (Acts 25:19; 26:8-9; 26:23).

    f) Paul proclaims the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ (Acts 26:18) and

    g) Paul proclaims his hope of the resurrection through Jesus Christ (Acts 24:14-15, 24:21, 26:23).

    h) Paul tactfully and humbly invites Agrippa to believe (Acts 26:26-29).

    We note that nowhere in any of the five times that Paul gave his “testimony” did he ever discuss how “Jesus Christ changed his life.”

    In contrast to the testimony of Paul, we note that the predominant “testimony” in the church today is that “Jesus Christ changed my life.” We acknowledge that there are many truths of the Christian faith to which a believer can bear witness, including the deliverance from trials, temptations, sin and despair, and the deliverance unto hope, meaning, and purpose. However, we believe that, when these matters become the focus of a “conversion” testimony, such a testimony is misleading, and therefore counter productive in pointing men and women to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. It implies that salvation is allowing Jesus to change one’s life, with the consequence of observing a change. We believe that this teaches, by implication, the doctrines of Lordship salvation and justification by works, wherein justification is a process by which our lives are transformed. This is, by definition, the doctrine of Justification by works. We believe that such “testimonies” have become a cancer on the church.

    We believe that a testimony of one’s conversion and salvation through Jesus Christ should include, as a general guideline:

    i) what one understood about man, God, and Jesus Christ before coming to saving faith in Jesus Christ;

    ii) what impediments there were in one’s former life to understanding or believing the gospel;

    iii) what events and circumstances of one’s former life prepared one to receive the gospel or to perceive in their life a need for a Savior;

    iv) how one came to hear the gospel; and

    v) how one came to believe the gospel, including motivations that drew one to consider the gospel, and how any impediments to faith were overcome.

    We believe that a clear presentation of the gospel message should be woven into a conversion testimony, both for the salvation of unbelievers, and the edification of believers.

    We believe that, in any presentation of the gospel, great care should be taken to ensure that the hearer does not misconstrue works as being a necessity for salvation or assurance of salvation. The Christian “testimony” is no exception.

    We believe that an invitation to faith is a reasonable conclusion to the presentation of one’s testimony.

  28. Thanks John,

    Excellent!!!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  29. Bruce, so great to hear from you. Would sure love to hear your rapture series, you didn’t tape it or have pdf’s of it do you?

    I am going to go see if I can find your article in the magazine too, continuing to pray also for you and your family.

  30. John, I was just speaking about that several days ago, the ‘testimony’ and how it’s many times about their works or changes, one used the ‘I was formerly an insolent man’ as some proof of Paul’s change. I’m going to copy and paste and reference this article. I agree with Jack, Excellent.

  31. Ive heard lots of testimonys and it always is about how they cleaned up their life, very little about trusting Christ.It seems to me that most people think thats why they got saved in the first place.Their is usually a statement of I asked Jesus to come into my heart.included.I was always worried I would be asked to stand up and give my testimony because I didn’t know what to say.I see now I would of been just trying to please people and wanting them to think Im a good person.It just saddens me to think thats how were taught in most churches.I feel bad for the people that give this type of testimony as there probably always worried somebody from their church might see them not exactly living up to the standards they set for themselves

    My testimony;I once was blind but now I see..Thank you Lord for setting me free.And thanks to all on this site that help to keep me that way.

  32. Sam,

    Thanks. You are right.

    It is obvious that a “salvation testimony” of an experience, a changed life or behavioral changes do not tell us anything about a person’s reason for or guarantee (Hope) of eternal life.

    The questions would be: Have they ever trusted in Jesus’ death and resurrection alone to pay for their sins for eternal life? Or are they trusting in their “changed” life to gain God’s justification or favor?

    The “changed life” salvation testimony, whether on purpose or not, is the very essence of the teaching that morphs into the lie of Lordship “salvation.” John very eloquently illustrated that point here:

    http://expreacherman.com/2013/12/14/title-true-or-false-a-person-who-believes-in-jesus-for-salvation-will-have-a-change-of-behavior/#comment-25950

    We appreciate your comments and urge you to continue studying here at ExP, yet proving all things by God’s Word!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  33. Sam, you made me smile and tear up at the same time. Yes! I relate to John 9, (and maybe a tiny bit of that ex-blind man’s humor and naughtiness to the Pharisees) :) ….

  34. Hi Holly,
    just wondering about Mark S, you said he has done some teaching on the ecumenical movement. Just wondering if you can direct me to a site to see what he has done on it. Everywhere I go the ecumenical movment is moving in fast. Was listening to Mike Gendron (unfortunately a Calvanist, with a false gospel, himself) was saying how the Charasmatic Movemnt, mainly false teacher, Kenneth Copeland, Word of Faith, was joining hands with the Catholic Church, its the false evangelicals joining in with “Rome”
    We know its here , we know its getting worse, but its so painful to watch,
    as people I know who have been willfully naive, are now being seduced into the Catholic Church.I guess this is the result of being willfuly ignorant.

  35. Hollygarcia Thanks, sometimes you just have to smile at all the stuff these false teachers come up with or you’ll go nuts.Im rereading Tom Cruzzas book secure forever and was wondering how these Lordship Salvation guys can refute this if they match his book with what the Bible says.( I guess Im just going to have to learn to think outside the box maybe then I can see it)

  36. Mary, as long as it’s o.k. to share with Jack and John, would be happy to.

  37. Holly,

    Don’t know “Mark S” or anything about him. Send me his link privately and we’ll check it out.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  38. I believe you know who he is Jack, it is the initial that is throwing you, I sent you his youtube channel. Because of being an ex MacArthur church, and also speaking against Lordship, Calvinism and Catholicism, he gets quite a bit of hate mail as I know you do also.

  39. Sam, I really appreciated Tom Cucuzza’s book, “Secure Forever! God’s promise or our perseverance”. Hope I got the title right, but an excellent treatise on Perseverance of the Saints, simple, Biblical, organized, and lay person friendly.

  40. Following is a quote from a March 6 Associated Press Article about Pope Francis, spiritual leader of 1.2 billion people worldwide:

    `’This man forgave the sins of all the priests of Buenos Aires, but not a single flower …?” Francis recalled. So he went out and bought a bouquet of roses, and when he returned to arrange them around the casket, he saw the rosary the priest still held in his hand.

    (Note: Francis was referring to a fellow priest, as someone who had the power to forgive sins).

    Catholicism spawned reformed theology. See the following from Clear Gospel Campaign:

    “Bilateral contract salvation” and the “Perseverance of the Saints” are two separate but interrelated doctrines within a complex theological system of salvation by works, which relies, at its core, on redefining the word “grace” as some sort of mystical empowering substance. This theological system is set forth in Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, Part 1 of the Second Part, Questions 109-114, “Treatise of Grace,” a 12th century manifesto of Roman Catholic Theology. In Protestantism, it is known as “Reformed Theology” or “Calvinism”.

  41. Mary, here is Mark S. youtube site for more info:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/ProclaimHisWord

  42. Thanks John,

    Interesting… Calvinism has its roots in Catholicism and requires similar visible fruits from its adherents, (Perseverance).

    In the 60′s, shortly after I trusted Jesus Christ as my Savior, I was witnessing to a gentleman and he asked, “Are you a Protestant”?

    I answered, “No, I am not protesting, I’m proclaiming the Good News, the Gospel of Jesus Christ so I could be called a Proclaimant.”

    Of course as I started to grow in Grace I realized that we believers must mark, call out and correct those folks who pervert the Gospel by insisting that visible works are necessary for salvation. These folks include Calvinists and Lordship “salvationists” of all stripes — too numerous to name.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  43. Interesting John, I was watching Bishop Tony Palmer and Pope Francis a few days ago. They had a gathering at Kenneth Copeland ministries for a message of Christian Unity to Evangelicals.

    He used all the right words through-out, (the ones he wanted), born-again, spirit-filled, brothers, sisters, unity, catholic, reformed….

    At one point he said he was going to get a little ‘cheeky’ with his Protestant friends, asking how can they be protestant if they were’t protesting something. And then he says, ‘but we are reformed’ and he keeps referring to how they’re ‘catholic’ because it’s a ‘universal church’.

    He THEN said “The protest has been over for 15 years, if there is no more protest, how can there be a protestant church? (To the crowd) WE are ALL catholics again, we are REFORMED. We NOW preach the SAME gospel. The protest is over, the protest is over.” (I’m assuming he meant the WARC or WTRC they all signed-can be seen on the Vatican site.)

    He also says they are all coming in the ‘spirit of Elijah’, suggesting they (this unity) are a double fulfillment come to reconcile everyone.

    The Pope then spoke and says he “speaks the language of the heart…” (can’t help but think of the truth here of Jer. 17, his heart is deceitful and desperately wicked).

    He says his ‘language is simple grammar”. And there are two rules,(which he twists).

    “Love God above all, and love the Other (neighbor) BECAUSE he IS your brother and sister….” (Is that what the Word says?) He continues, “We have to encounter one another as ‘brothers’” …”We all have different rich traditions”….”I am speaking to you today as a brother”.

    He brings up the only Lord of ‘history’ (He IS the Lord of Glory and was around before ‘history’ and is the King of Glory now, just not in the past. That word was interesting to me…)

    Pope continues again, “Let’s pray the Lord unites us all. The miracle of unity has begun.”

  44. Then Copeland begins to speak, and the camera cuts to the bishop who raises his hands and is obviously speaking in tongues.

    (Copeland) We agree with him in his ‘quest’. We come together in the unity of our faith, hallelujah.

    Copeland then speaks in tongues out loud with no interpretation for about 17:00 on. At the end of his ‘tongues’ he sits there licking his lips, licking his lips, couldn’t help but think of the serpent.

    Copeland, I believe like many false prophets, repeats himself in almost everything… Just as MacArthur does frequently.

    Thank you father is said multiple times and then thank you Lord Jesus multiple times. (But very repetitively). He gets on his phone and he blesses the pope. Copeland says, “Tens of thousands of leaders are there with him that love him (the pope) and believe god with him and did so in the spirit. He cited Mark 11:24. (sorry, not capitalizing god or spirit here)

    Brings up Eph 4 and unity of the faith.

    Copeland: We bless you and receive your blessing. He Blesses the POPE with all of his heart, and all of his soul, and all of his might… (suggestive of course that the pope is god, and also uses another passage that I forgot to note, but couldn’t listen any more…)

  45. Holly, these guys seem to have a lot in common.

  46. John, Holly,

    A lot in common, yes. Mr. Pope wants Mr Copeland’s followers and Mr. Copeland wants access to Mr. Pope’s money pit.

    Further evidence of the last days “Ecumenical World Church” where apostasy meets apostasy!! Who will win that internal, infernal encounter? APOSTASY!!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  47. I listened to the manipulative language of the ‘heart’. The ‘phrases’ they were throwing around from born-again to spirit-filled. They used reformed on several occasions, so they understand, the reformed is probably one of the fastest growing movements in the ‘evangelical’ circles. There are ‘reformed’ Pentecostals even. There was a really concerning post, (which we are not unaware of what the end will be for real believers who come to faith in the tribulation, but I’ll go get it and post in a separate post.

  48. yes its disheartening to watch, feel so grieved, everywhere I look theres apostasy and we live in such a bad news world. Watching the malaysian airline disaster, I have such a heavy heart for the loved ones families.
    I don’t know how much longer the lord will let us go on for, if he tarries any longer we have such a rough ride ahead of us.
    Discernment doesn’t exist anymore, so the devil has free reign in the churches, boy what a mess and there unfortuntely r so many messed up people in the churches who just believe everything they are listening to, is of god, how tragic.

  49. Mary, I believe the Bible answers why people are lacking discernment, at least concerning those who are saved and not the wolves.

    For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Heb 5:12-14

  50. Mary,

    Don’t give up… Keep contending for the Faith. Enjoy the fellowship of believers here at ExPreacherMan.

    Time is growing short for Jesus to return in the Rapture. We see False teacher/Charismatic “preacher” Kenneth Copeland recently meet with the pope, agreeing on their “mutual” doctrine. And we see the leader of the US House of Representatives invite him to speak before a joint session of Congress. Antichrists in our midst. Maybe not in Australia yet but certainly in the USA.

    The One World Religion and One World Government is coming together as the world will suddenly see after the Rapture.

    Stay STRONG in Jesus and His Word!!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  51. Thanks lets all keep each other in prayer for god to sustain us in these difficult times we are experiencing when everything around us is falling apart. Peoples lives, marriages, health and relationship breakdowns and especially the high level of mental illness we are experiencing now. In Australia, a family has finally got justice for a paedophile that should have never been released and killed a young lad of 13 at a bus stop who had gone to buy presents for christmas for his family. This all happened 11 years ago but it took this long to get justice. Story after story of heartbreak, lord sustain us in it all. COME LORD JESUS COME.

  52. Mary and all,

    Pray for each other.. Great idea!!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  53. Hear my cry, O God; attend unto my prayer.
    From the end of the earth will I cry unto thee, when my heart is overwhelmed: lead me to the rock that is higher than I.
    For thou hast been a shelter for me, and a strong tower from the enemy.
    I will abide in thy tabernacle for ever:
    I will trust in the covert of thy wings. Selah. Psalm 61:1-4

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