Rick Warren’s Ecumenism. “Chrislam” and Lordship Salvation?

Is there a connection?

Most folks don’t necessarily think of Rick Warren as a big supporter of Lordship Salvation — but we have written and documented it here and here.

Think about this idea I propose that Warren may be at the forefront of a world wide ecumenical movement that attempts to incorporate Warren’s idea of New Age Mysticism and Evangelicalism in his humanistic world-wide “PEACE” movement. He is now reaching out to Muslims, not to win them to Jesus Christ but to explore the similarities between their god and the God of the Bible. That is called Chrislam.  An article in the 2009 Orange County Register (CA) shows Warren in full fellowship speaking to 8,000 Muslims at INSA, the Islamic Society of North America’s annual convention in Washington D.C. (Side note, reports are that Warren did not share the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ.. Picture below.)

Article Tab: Sami M. Angawi, left, talks with Evangelical pastor Rick Warren, right, at the Islamic Society of North America�s 46th annual convention in Washington, July 4, 2009. Evangelical megachurch pastor Rick Warren says America's largest Islamic organization showed courage when it invited him to speak at its annual convention.

Sami M. Angawi, left, talks with Evangelical pastor Rick Warren, right, at the Islamic Society of North America�s 46th annual convention in Washington, July 4, 2009. Evangelical megachurch pastor Rick Warren says America’s largest Islamic organization showed courage when it invited him to speak at its annual convention.

Luis M. Alvarez, (OCR)

There is NO similarity between Islam and the Christianity proclaimed in God’s Word, the Bible. Rick Warren is severely misguided, deluded or intentionally giving in to Islam thus aiding the Muslim push for an international Muslim Caliphate (rulership).

This quote below is from a Muslim “ecumenical” web site [submission.nu] — is an attempt to marginalize the cruelty of Islam by comparing it to Christianity and is an effort to merge the two. The word Islam means “Submission.” In the excerpt below, is an effort to make Islam acceptable to “Christian religions.” They carefully substitute the word “God” in place of their god Allah.

The time has come to purify and consolidate all the messages delivered by God’s prophets into one message, and to proclaim that henceforth, there is only one religion acceptable to God, [Allah] “Submission”  [Islam] (3:19, 85). “Submission” [Islam] is the religion whereby we recognize God’s [Allah's] absolute authority, and reach an unshakeable conviction that God [Allah] ALONE possesses all power; no other entity possesses any power that is independent of Him [Allah]. The natural result of such a realization is to devote our lives and our worship absolutely to God [Allah] ALONE. This is the First Commandment in all the scriptures, including the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Final Testament. [Quran] [Brackets my emphasis]

How many of these dictates sound like the rules set by men for Lordship “salvation” (LS) and/or how many are the basis of LS, Calvinism? Without total submission to Allah the god of Islam, there is no hope for the adherents of Islam (or anyone else they say). And then, there is no eternal hope for adherents of Lordship “salvation” without total submission to the Lordship of Christ (contrary to God’s Word). It is odd how similar these two philosophies seem to be.

And further, to put it in a more personal perspective, why are we as American Christian citizens spending millions of our US tax dollars to save Muslim mosques in the middle east? Watch this short video from Atlanta news. WSBTV Atlanta

Islam does not desire coexistence with Rick Warren or any other religion — they want total Submission – Islam. Wonder what Rick Warren is thinking with his PEACE plan reaching out to Muslims, who ultimately want him to submit to Islam — either now or later? Can he have it both ways with Chrislam?

Do you see this coming to a church near you?

Is this push softening Americans to accept Muslim Shariah Law into our own courts? It is happening today – Shariah Law Cases by State. << Go here and find cases in your own state’s courts.

True Faith — From God’s Word. << Click

90 responses to “Rick Warren’s Ecumenism. “Chrislam” and Lordship Salvation?

  1. Jack, I was given a copy of Warren’s “The Purpose Driven Life” back when I still thought the LS concepts were true. I have since sent the book to recycling heaven.

    I think that LS and many of the other false religions are compatible in that they each have a works component to salvation.

    It would not surprise me to see anyone who has turned the Gospel into a false gospel of works fall into further error.

  2. John,

    Glad you recycled the PDL book. My daughter’s church tried to bring that teaching in but it was rejected by the members.

    I was sorta surprised when I started thinking of the similarities between the two errors and wondering how easy it would be to fall for the false teachings of “moderated” submission in Islam and submission in LS.

    Interesting thoughts…

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  3. Jack, I was not helped by the PDL book at all. It was a self-help book, and had a lot of opaque references to SBC LS dogma. I think someone would do just as well watching Oprah as studying the PDL book.

  4. Hi Jack,

    Good topic. I agree with John’s comment about the PDL book. I remember some of the small groups at church studied the book years ago. I saw a video clip yesterday of Rick Warren speaking at an ecumenical conference of Rabbis, Imams, RCC priests and Protestant pastors. It was headed up by Tony Blair. In the clip, Warren boasted that his book was the best selling book of all time; then he paused and said something like, Oh, but of course it comes in second to the Bible.

  5. Interesting topic, Jack, ending with excellent questions. I agree with John’s conclusion that religion is always about working one’s way toward appeasing a god, essentially and easily falling into the category of LS.

    Never having read any of Warren’s material, but have read plenty about it, I know he’s merely the religious arm of bridge building, working toward uniting the world as one productive machine. But yes, knowing Islam is quite unwilling to compromise with other religions, I haven’t a clue what Warren and the Pope expect. Not believing the scriptures, could they simply be spiritually blinded to the final outcome? There will never be peace until Jesus Christ returns. And I don’t see those trapped in Calvinist/Arminian LS compromising with Allah either, as we have noted in the past that most discernment ministries are LS. The only thing I see forcibly uniting the world is the mark of the beast. Addiction to technology and an “uninterrupted” way of life/survival is enough reason for most to cross over.

    “And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.” Daniel 2:43

  6. Pearl,

    Good points.. but since LS, Arminianism, Calvinism and Pope-ism are all based on works-submission, one might assume that same delusion may be accepted as the norm in the world of the near future. That web site article I quoted on Islamic Submission was syrupy sweet, never mentioning Allah but “God” as the universal substitute word. That will appeal to those who know not Scripture nor the dangers of Islam — so they will go along to get along. I was reading recently of some more liberal churches holding joint services for Muslims and “Christians.” They seem to see enough similarity to merge their services.

    I found a web site which lists churches who, on June 26, 2011, combined “Christian”/Islam services for their congregation:
    http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=5441

    I was amazed in checking that web site list, seeing one such church is on the campus of the University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa (my secular Alma Mater), This church, The University Presbyterian Church, was helped and supported by my Dad and in its early days was Pastored by my extreme liberal brother-in-law, Rev. Ed Payne Miller from 1953 to 1963. Ed never shared salvation in Jesus Christ with me from the time I first met him (before he married my sister) until he died.

    So you can see why I have such an aversion to Calvinism and liberalism in so-called theological circles. I almost became physically sick reading the “Mission and History” of that church on their web page. Brings back some terrible memories — but so thankful that in spite of that family history, I later trusted Jesus Christ as my Savior. God’s Grace is amazing!!

    And yes, I agree that the mark of the beast will force lots of folks in directions they never dreamed, some willingly, others unwillingly.. Thankfully, we as believers will be gone from earth and in Heaven at that time.

    Even so come Lord Jesus.

    In Jesus Christ eternally,Jack

  7. “Christian”/Islam services?! Now I’ve heard it all.

  8. But Pearl, Chrislam is but one part of the problem.

    The worst part for me is realizing that my own Dad, Bro-in-law and Sister were all involved in getting that liberal, ecumenical, apostate ball rolling way back then.

    Reading further in their Mission statement I see that the “church” proclaims that they voted to affiliate with “More Light Presbyterians,” an organization working and “Seeking the full participation of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people of faith in the life, ministry, and witness of the Presbyterian Church.”

    They welcome LGBT into their fellowship, no concern for their souls, no mention about leading them to Christ or help them with their addiction but … together they march, you n us, so to speak.
    Sick!!

    Of course they don’t realize that Islam forbids homosexuality and their church would be the first to be slain in the name of their “god,” Allah. Oxymorons.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  9. Jack, politics and ecumenism make strange bedfellows. One of my friends told me he saw a “Coexist” bumper sticker on a car at his church one Sunday morning.

  10. Both political and religious liberalism defy logic (and we’ve got a few illogicals in our own family).

    Speaking of Islam’s answer to homosexuality being honor killings and those perfectly stupid coexist bumper stickers, I applaud the informed mind which came up with the “Co-exist?” illustration a few years back. I believe I’ve referred to it before, but the current conversation demands it.

    http://treadinggrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/coexist.png

  11. Jack, I have an interesting question.

    Just how ecumenical are these guys? That is, would their ecumenism allow for the inclusion of Biblical Chrisianity?

    Would the following organizations allow the teaching of Free Grace theology:

    1. Saddleback Church?
    2. The Southern Baptist Convention?
    3. The United Methodist Church?
    4. The Roman Catholic Church?
    5. More Light Presbyterians?
    6. Islam?
    7. Presbyterian Church USA?
    8. John Macarthur’s Grace to You Ministries
    9. Latter Day Saints?
    10. Jehovah’s Witnesses?

    With limited exceptions (such as certain churches loosely affiliated with the SBC), I think the answer to the above is no.

    So, what is it that they have in common?

  12. Pearl,
    Great expose’ of the Coexist sticker mantra.. Coexisters are not ignorant — they know exactly what they are doing.

    John,

    Interesting questions. What do they have in common? ERROR !!! But ecumenism to them would mean bringing everyone over to their erroneous doctrine.

    That church in Tuscaloosa would toss me out on my ear if I ever got an opportunity to preach there. They are ecumenical as long as it fits a liberal mold because they want everyone else to be pressed into their same form factor.

    I could rant on about that church, my Bro-in-law, my Dad etc but it would serve no purpose. It is obvious they are not Biblical now and sad to say, I know first hand — they never were.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  13. Another thing those organizations have in common is a lust for power.

    I realize the co-exist thing is a true organization, but I’ve not spent time going over their manifesto. Since you say they know exactly what they’re doing, how can they then be party to it, basically signing their own death warrants should their plan go smoothly? You don’t believe it’s a case of wearing super thick rose-colored glasses? (My question is sincere, not argumentative: I know you’ve spent some years in politics.)

  14. Pearl,

    One thing I learned after years in politics… POLITICS IS ROTTEN!!! So happy I am not there any more..

    Ecumenical, religious, liberal politics is even more rotten. Each group thinks they will “win.” Rose colored glasses may be needed and distributed to the masses but the honchos in each of John’s list above “know” they will win over all obstacles. Islam and Shariah law is creeping into American courts as valid established law. (Islam is winning). Republicans are just about to nominate a Mormon. (Mormons are winning). The Pope is cozy-ing up to Islam (and winning minds in the world [Newt??]), just as is Rick Warren and Saddleback Church (winning world-wide). Egotistically, they all think they will win.

    And then Islam knows if they do not win with their new sweetness and light campaign, they will not hesitate to do so through violent Jihad.

    Interesting times in which we live. However, the Gospel is still the Power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  15. Pearl,

    One more quick note that may be of interest.. Shortly after trusting Christ as my Savior, I was just beginning to understand God’s Word, even though I was still involved with politics. My church was studying the End Times through Daniel, Ezekiel and the Revelation. The concept of ecumenism meant the Satanic effort to resolve all the world’s problems into one big “happy” One World Religion and Government — the future rule and reign of the Antichrist – and it was in progress even then.

    Right in the middle of that study series my wife and I received an expensive, handsome engraved envelope from my Sister and Bro-in-law, Ed Miller. It was a notice that they had paid for a membership for my wife and me in the radical world wide Ecumenical Institute. http://tinyurl.com/6qz7u2h

    I was livid and returned it to them with a scorching letter refusing any membership. I don’t recall any future correspondence with them while he was alive.

    Not surprisingly, the Ecumenical Institute is an arm of the World Council of Churches and still thrives on liberal churches who know not God’s Word.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  16. It’s interesting to see this development. Prior to 9/11, there was a movement of Muslims and Conservative Christians coming together on certain issues such as homosexuality, abortion and traditional moral values. That of course ended after the attacks, for the most part.

    Now we see the Leftists aligning more with Islam while the Right appears to be slightly more attached with the Zionist/ Neoconservative movement at the moment.

    I used to attend a left-leaning Baptist church many years ago and recently heard that the pastor there has been teaching out of the Koran. I can’t say I’m surprised. Also nowadays, it’s not uncommon to find un-saved rabbi’s preaching in Conservative-leaning churches today. To me, these are both consequences of the modern LS era.

  17. Wow. Talk about it coming too close to home, huh?

    Before my learning of LS, I read a lot of articles over at Kjos Ministries. They have a ton of lengthy, detailed articles on the many faces of the new world order via the UN, Rick Warren, and of course, our own government. I had to back away from reading there because the info is just so disturbing. But one of the things which I recall was how even Winston Churchill was in favor of a one world government. Even though his motivation was an understandable effort to prevent another world war, we know who the spirit whispering in his ear was. It’s a satanic-inspired plan, conspiring with simple human rebellion, against God going all the way back to the Tower of Babel, no wait, the Garden of Eden!

    Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

  18. LukeNC,

    Welcome – thanks for stopping by — we appreciate your analysis of the ecumenism in your “:neighborhood.” Obviously it has spread worldwide and into every religious crevice it can find — sorta like cockroaches..

    Subscribe and come by often. You will find many here who concur with your observations.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  19. Pearl,

    Yep, I’ve been in too many close encounters. You are right — The Garden of Eden and then Babylon, both great precursors of what is coming today at breakneck speed in our direction. But we continue to share the Grace of Jesus Christ and His salvation.

    And we agree — even so Come Lord Jesus!! Maybe Tonight??

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  20. Dear Pearl,
    It is very sad that although Kjos Ministries is able to expose various conspiracies of the world, yet still preaching the Lordship Salvation Gospel. Here is the except from their site:

    “How you, too, may receive His gift of abundant life:

    Acknowledge the Bible uses the word “confess” who Christ is:

    Confess your sins: Admit in prayer that you have sinned against Him. The words King David prayed may help you:
    ….
    Repent (based on genuine Spirit-given conviction of sin — not simply your human choice): Express your willingness and desire to turn from all wrong ways and follow Jesus, then trust Him — now and each coming day — to accomplish it by His Spirit in you.”

    Dear Jack,
    Thanks for your article on Rick Warren and thanks for sharing your insights on the formation of the one world religion. After examining various facts and reading Psalm 2, I do believe the princes of this world are conspiring together to lead the whole world into the kingdom of the antichrist. The World Council of Churches is definitely used by Satan to his advantage. If one wants to know more about World Council of Churches, here is a video that is worth watching.

    Google: “An overview of the WCC Assemblies since 1948″

  21. Eddy,

    Thanks for that information — the WCC could be called the Wicked Counter Culture.

    In Christ eternally, Jack

  22. So true, Eddy. Now that I know how to recognize LS (admitedly, some of its more subtle wording has managed to slip beneath my radar) and its common occurrence in practically every single ministry, it’s getting so that there’s very little to read on the entire web!

  23. Dear Jack and Pearl,
    WCC is very wicked indeed. I have a feeling that Satan no longer is trying to hide his various acts anymore. That is the way that the globalists are openly promoting the formation of the one world government and the leaders of almost every religion are actively promoting the idea that Christ is manifested to different religions in different names. Even the Dalai Lama has a high praise for this counterfeit Christ. Here is what he said:

    “Jesus Christ also lived previous lives, So, you see, he reached a high state, either as a Bodhisattva, or an enlightened person, through Buddhist practice or something like that. Then, at a certain period, certain era, he appeared as a new master, and then because of circumstances, he taught certain views different from Buddhism, but he also taught the same religious values as I mentioned earlier: Be patient, tolerant, compassionate. This is, you see, the real message in order to become a better human being.”

    Dalai Lama was suggesting that Jesus Christ is a Bodhisattva. Buddhists also believe that the Maitreya Buddha is a Bodhisattva, and they expect Maitreya will come back to enlighten the world. It is not a far-fetched speculation that antichrist will appear to them as Maitreya. Here is an description of Maitreya:

    “MAITREYA represents the Supreme Being on Earth, God incarnate in the flesh. The Encyclopedia Britannica lists Maitreya as the name of the bodhisattva who is to be the next future Buddha. In accordance with the Hindu theory of recurrent cycles of the Universe, Buddhism held that its truths have been repeatedly taught by Buddhas who arise in succession so that the doctrine after its decay and disappearance will be again realized and taught by other Buddhas in the future. A cycle in which no Buddha appears is called empty, but in this cycle there are to be five. Four have appeared, and the fifth is to be the world saviour, MAITREYA.”

    Hindus also are waiting for the coming of Kalki. Here is a description of him:

    “In Hinduism, Kalki is the tenth and final Maha Avatar (great incarnation) of Vishnu who will bring to the end the present age of darkness and destruction known as Kali Yuga. He will establish a new era based on truth, righteousness, humanism and goodness, called Satya Yuga.”

    Of course, whenever the worldwide false religions use Christ’s name, they actually are pointing people to the soon-to-come antichrist. The Lordship Salvation proponents are doing that unknowingly. It is not hard to imagine what the world will be like immediately after the Rapture, when possibly tens of millions of born-again Christians just suddenly disappear from the surface of this earth. Everyone, despite of their religious beliefs, will be actively searching for an explanation and they will believe in whatsoever the big mouth antichrist is going to tell them. There will be a very sudden change in people’s attitudes, and almost everyone, even the atheists, at that time will believe this man is indeed that universal Christ. Almost all the people will listen to whatsoever this man told them to do, even allowing the Jews to build the temple on the Temple Mount. Satan has already laid down enough groundwork in the recent past that he is pretty much well prepared for the Rapture to come. WCC was founded in the same year as Israel became a nation in 1948. Satan certainly understood that the start of the seventieth week of Daniel is imminent.

    “I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.” John 5:43

    “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12

  24. Eddy, interesting comments regarding Kjos. I am interested in your thoughts on people who have fallen for the false LS gospel at the outset and never put their faith in Christ alone – that is, they are trusting in Christ plus their works.

    If such people are left behind by the rapture, do you think it will dawn on most of them what their error was, and they will then trust in Christ alone, or do you think most will be further blinded to the truth and follow the anti-christ?

  25. John, I too am interested in Eddy’s take on that. For me, I believe that sadly most who are not raptured will not come to faith. I don’t believe the Holy Spirit will be operating in the same way then. His ministry of restraint, for one, will be changed because the church will have been removed. Mankind will be brought under a strong delusion. I believe 2 Thess 2:1-12 addresses this. I do believe some will be saved as a result of the 2 witnesses and the 144,000 but they will suffer great persecution and will most likely die for their faith and opposition to the Anti-Christ.

  26. Hi John, Jim and Eddy,

    I have a bit of a different take on the seven-year tribulation period. I believe that the rapture event itself will cause millions to wake up and realize that their Christian family members and friends were right in what they had been saying for so many years. I believe that millions will come to faith in Christ alone very quickly. And yes, Jim, you are right in saying that they will face tremendous persecution and many many will suffer martyrdom. But there will have to be a sizable population of Christians who, by the grace and protection of God, somehow survive the tribulation. Otherwise, who will be left to populate the millennial kingdom?

    Blessings on all of you,

    Bruce

  27. Bruce, my wife and I talked about the same thing this morning – that maybe someone who turned the Gospel into a false gospel of works would realize, when they don’t see you after the rapture, that you were right.

  28. But, by the same token, they may also believe that they were left behind because they hadn’t done enough, and continue to be deluded.

  29. To all of our regular commentors,

    We have had a couple of recent guest comments on some older threads that some of you may wish to respond to.

    See,

    http://expreacherman.com/2011/02/21/lordship-salvation-calvanism-and-one-naturism/

    and

    http://expreacherman.com/2011/01/23/lordship-salvation-teaches-confusion-francis-chan/

  30. About the Rapture, etc:

    Of course I have done lots of speculation about who will be saved after the Rapture, during the Tribulation and then the Millennial rule of Christ.

    I continue to believe that the Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11) and will continue unabated — and is the same, unchanging Grace throughout all Biblical dispensations.. But as Jim F says God’s restraining Holy Spirit indwelling all believers is taken away with believers at the Rapture, therefore it seems utter chaos will reign on earth.

    Jim F also rightfully says that folks will be sent a strong delusion which will deter some from believing.
    “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:” 2 Thessalonians 2:11 (As Eddy so eloquently points out, that delusion is already happening today.)

    John, I also wonder whether LS folks will wake up or be more entrenched in their false doctrine. They have a better chance now than they will during the Tribulation because delusions will be stronger then than now.

    Bruce, I would like to think there will be lots of folks saved during the Tribulation to go into the Millennial Kingdom but believers will be hunted, persecuted and killed during the Tribulation. Obviously it will be a difficult time for them. We can only imagine — it could be similar to Christians in the newly “liberated,” now hard core Muslim Brotherhood dominated Islamic countries in the Middle East and Africa. (Egypt, Libya, Afghanistan, Pakistan, et al).

    There will be one thousand years of re-population during the Millennium plus all the believers and their young children who make it through the Tribulation.. We can only guess at the numbers.

    Most of this is “educated” speculation on my part I know, but it illustrates the need to warn and preach the Gospel of Christ by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone just in case the Rapture is tonight which means the Tribulation would start tomorrow. Think about that!!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  31. Hi Jack,

    Thanks for your thoughts; your final statement was especially sobering:

    “. . . it illustrates the need to warn and preach the Gospel of Christ by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone just in case the Rapture is tonight which means the Tribulation would start tomorrow. Think about that!!”

  32. Bruce, your review of the book “The Hole in Our Gospel” fits right into this thread on ecumenism. The Gospel can be twisted and maligned into something that fits almost any agenda, whether it is social activism, Lordship “salvation”, or any other aberration.

    Once the Gospel is changed, it is no longer the Gospel. That is why Satan has always had a target on it.

    As Christians, we should aspire toward unity. But, as Clear Gospel Campaign puts it:

    “We believe, however, that any area of doctrine even remotely affecting the integrity of the gospel is inherently serious (Galatians 2:11-14), that Scripture calls us to draw the line at the earliest point, and to yield not one inch on matters that jeopardize the integrity of the gospel, a compromise that jeopardizes the eternal life of every man, woman and child on this planet who has not yet heard the gospel message (Galatians 1:6-9, 2:5).”

  33. Hi John,

    Yes, you are so right about how authors and preachers can twist the simple Biblical gospel to fit their own agendas. If anyone wishes to read the review of Stearn’s book that you mentioned, they can go to:
    http://www.freegracealliance.com/pdf/A%20Gospel%20With%20a%20Hole%20or%20a%20WHOLE%20Gospel%20review%20by%20Bauer.pdf

    By the way, I had a nice online chat with Ron Shea, Founder of Clear Gospel Ministries—great man of grace!

    Blessings friend,

    Bruce

  34. I have a question – and it may be a dumb one – but it’s one I often wonder about..

    Early on in my Christian experience, I came into contact with Dave Hunt’s ministry which was foundational in directing my view toward a pre-trib rapture. I never questioned it, and still have many books supporting it, over which I have spent many years pouring over.

    Then, late 2010, a friend directed me to some compelling pre-wrath articles analyzing and debating issues like imminency, Satan’s wrath against the saints followed by the Day of the Lord, and other positions.

    So here’s my question: am I correct in observing that dispensationalism is tightly knotted with free grace, and why must this be so? I have read that LSers (and/or Calvinists) are anti-dispensational and free gracers are rigidly dispensational, but I’m not seeing it that plainly. Rather, I’m seeing that no matter what ministries teach about the unfolding of the endtimes, the vast majority are all LSers.

  35. Pearl, I am also interested in why LSers are even focused on the end times. Since they are trusting – at least in part – on their own works, how can they look forward to the end with confidence?

  36. Pearl, regarding the connection between dispensationalism and free Grace, I would offer the following:

    Free Grace Positions
    1. There is a Bema judgment, in which all church age believers will be judged according to their works – all are saved. See 1 Corinthians 3:15.
    2. The judgment of sheep and goats – post-church age judgment, in which sheep (saved people who were faithful and survived the tribulation) and goats (non-believers) are judged – see Matthew 25:31-46.
    3. More generally, non-dispensationalists often do not distinguish between salvation from sin’s penalty and rewards.

    A non-dispensationalist would use number 2 to prove that one had to do good works to be saved.

  37. That’s it? It’s all about the Bema seat judgment? So then, what does the Bema judgment, covenant theology (aka “progressive dispensationalism”?) and lots of other terms have to do with the timing of the rapture?

    I’m beginning to feel like I need to go all the way back to square one.

  38. Bruce, I really do hope that would be the case. I just think that it would be more likely that people, even if they realize they made an error, may just as likely turn to some other false way than to have faith. I also think that there will be some explanation given that will explain things away. Many will even believe that the Anti-Christ is God. Of course as Jack said some of these things are educated speculation. The emphasis should be put on spreading the true gospel now.

  39. Pearl,

    I’d probably put it that free grace is tightly knotted with dispensationalism. To me, if you understand dispensationalism and approach the scriptures seeking to understand its meaning in the proper contexts (plain, consistent, literal, and historical contexts while recognizing differences in literary styles),then you will be more likely to not only be “free grace” but be more likely to develop sound overall theology. This allows a person to have a better foundation to stand against errors. There are some who hold to a basically dispensational (pre-trib)view of the end times who are Calvinistic or LS. However, you will also find most pushing LS to be what you would call a “leaky” dispensationalist (JMac) on down to out and out covenant in theology. There can be so many divisions that it can make your head spin. I’ve always thought though that if a person is off on the gospel then it might indicate that they are weak in the way they interpret the Bible and that they may be departing from dispensational principles. Likewise, more recently, I am starting to be more wary of those who have different endtimes views because it may point back to a flawed overall hermenuetic that lead them to that point. Flawed hermenuetics can lead quickly to any version of works based salvation.

    For example. I had a friend who considered himself to be a calvinist, lordship advocate, and basically covenant in theology. He may have been more new covenant but it gets confusing trying to differentiate the two. Anyway, he would tell me things like there is no rapture, there is not a real big difference between the church and Israel, that I need to be brought to life spiritually just like Lazarus was raised from the dead, and that man is dead in trespasses and sins and cannot believe unless God regenerates them. He would equate passages in Jeremiah and other Old Testament texts to support those ideas. The problem came clear to me that he despised dispensationalism and accused the system of taking things away from scripture. He was trying to use certain passages about the end times relating to the millenial kingdom to support the idea of regeneration before faith. Jer 31:33 is an example. He was using a more allegorical method than a true dispensational method. The truth is that many that write books promoting Lordship also use these type of methodologies to support their views. This particular friend was also most probably post-trib in his view of the tribulation. He believed that the church would go through the tribulation and that what we are really looking to do is bring in the kingdom and look to Christ’s second coming. He was a big fan of guys like Mark Dever and Paul Washer. I just went on Dever’s 9 marks site the other day and under marks 3 (gospel) and 4 (conversion)I looked up the verses used to support what he was saying and found that they were really not supporting it very much at all. That has been a great problem that I have seen with LS advocates. They need to be called out on using texts to support their views that don’t actually support them. Their error is best combated by the text itself.

    I’ll try to answer your other question on the rapture timing in a later post.

  40. Thanks for shedding further light, Jim. I very much look forward to your next post.

    Btw, the friend which introduced me to the pre-wrath teaching is Arminian, (the other extreme, works-based twin). And so goes another layer of the proverbial onion.

  41. Jim, I think you have made some very good points. You said:

    “I’ve always thought though that if a person is off on the gospel then it might indicate that they are weak in the way they interpret the Bible and that they may be departing from dispensational principles.”

    I think that people’s errant views of scripture are aided and abetted by bad teaching and hermeneutics. However, I think the root of it is that they do not believe the Gospel in its purity and simplicity.

  42. Pearl,

    One of the biggest problems is not understanding the differences between God’s plan for Israel and God’s plan for the church. Any failure here can lead to error in the view of the end times events. I believe that the pre-trib rapture is the most biblically consistent view. There are those who hold to a mid-trib view (pre-wrath rapture) which says that the church will be taken away just before the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation. You can find info on that error here:

    http://bible-truth.org/mid-trib.html

    As far as Arminianism, I’ve not studied why it would be that they would possibly favor the mid-trib view but I feel that you are well aware of the dangers of their teaching/doctrine.

    Some favor the view that the rapture is really just a “resurrection” and that there really is not rapture at all. They say this takes place just at the end of the tribulation period before the millenial kingdom. It is an error of covenant theology. Covenant theology also a real danger. Covenant theology will lead one to a lordship position amongst other things. Their view is advocated at sites like this one below.

    http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2006/11/does-bible-teach-pre-trib-rapture.html

    Jack,

    I have included the above link for the purpose of illustration only though I know it contains much error.

  43. John,

    Yes, that illustrates the problem of not interpreting the Bible correctly. Believers should be concerned by how they handle the Word of God.

    I agree that most engaged in false teaching are not saved because they did not ever truly understand the gospel. However, I do believe that Christians can be fooled for a time and teach some of these things.

    You would think that people who have been saved would/should know how to explain it to others.

  44. Pearl,

    Jim F, John and Bruce have given some great answers to your questions.. You do not need to go back to square one — but build upon the Grace you know.

    When I was studying in Bible college, (Late ’60s) I never recall hearing anyone say or having to place “Free” before Grace… because by its very nature, Grace IS free and unearned. But I suppose we do it in an effort to clarify the Truth from those who would preach another “close but no cigar” gospel

    The question about who is likely to get the Rapture wrong (or not at all) — just about everyone except those who truly espouse Free Grace (not the Calvinist version), You may occasionally read where even one of those Free Grace folks mess it up. Jim F’s explanation is good. A rejection of Israel as still being God’s chosen people (Replacement Theology) is one of the worst — and mostly by Calvinists and some Arminians. (Catholics too but that doesn’t even need to be said). I have never noticed LS folks consistently getting the Rapture right.. They mess up so much it is hard to keep track.

    Naturally, all things in the Bible, studied dispensationally become clearer when salvation is clearly understood as being Eternal — by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone. That IS the key to study.

    Y’all have come up with some really great comments. Thanks to all of you.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  45. Dear John, Jim F, Bruce and Jack,
    If the Lordship Salvation believers knowingly reject the free grace Gospel before the rapture, I don’t think there is any chance for them to not be deceived after the rapture. I really doubt the rapture will be serving as a sign to them to soften their hearts. Rather, I think their hearts will be even further hardened by the rapture event.

    “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9

    “A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.” Matthew 16:4

    I agree with John, Jim F, and Jack on the likely outcome of those who heard the Gospel before the Rapture, but outright reject the Gospel. I also agree with Jack that even on the second half of the tribulation, Ephesians 2:8-9 still stands.

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

    Will there be those who believe in Christ but without the courage to publicly refuse to taking the Mark of the Beast? I think so. However, I think there is almost no hope for them to successfully hide their Christian faith from being known before they are qualified to accept the mark of the beast. Antichrist will be using the most advanced surveillance technologies and mind reading technologies to identify every believer. The best hope for those believers in the middle of the tribulation is try to run for their lives rather than entertain the idea that they may be able to pass the lie detectors. Even nowadays, the lie detector technologies and the various kinds of surveillance technologies are so advanced that anyone could hardly escape. If the rapture is not happening soon, I am not surprised if they will use these kinds of technology to root out every Christian and destroy the church. Satan wants to make God a liar by trying to destroy the church.

    “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mattew 16:18

    Here is just one example of the surveillance technologies available today.

    Google: “watch?v=cTxRkmHkrBs”

    In the last three and a half years of tribulation, not only the CCTV cameras will be used to track every Christian down, but also every non-believer’s camera equipped smart phones as well. I also speculate the mark of the beast will be implemented as an implantable RFID chip. Antichrist will force everyone to be implanted with such a chip under one’s arm or one’s forehead. Any NFC capable smartphone will be able to read the chip and authenticate the individual. RFID technology is already being embedded in school uniforms. What will be the logical next step? Under the skin.

    Google: “Brazilian city uses computer chips embedded in school uniforms to keep track of students”

    In the coming years, the install base of NFC capable smartphones will be growing very rapidly. It is widely expected that the coming iPhone 5 will be NFC capable. Every NFC smartphone is also capable to serve as an electronic wallet. In the second half of the tribulation, the only way to be able to buy and sell is through the use of an NFC equipped phone. Everyone’s exact location will be monitored by the global police using the GPS capability in every phone. It is indeed a very grim situation for those tribulation Christians. They would not even be able to keep their mobile phones. They will be lacking food and they will be constantly on the run. They cannot stay together in a large group without risking being found. They need to even avoid being detected by spy satellites and drones. However, God will make sure a certain number of them will survive through the great tribulation.

    “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.” Matthew 24:22

    I am not against technology. However, knowing the pace of the various technological advances and the way they are being used, I have to question what is the implication and how technology will play a role in Satan’s plan.

  46. Dear Pearl,
    Please also be careful of those who hold a solid dispensational pre-trib view yet still support Lordship Salvation. Here are some examples:

    Chuck Missler
    Rod Hambree
    Many Lighthouse authors
    Roger Oakland

    As jack indicated, I don’t think you need to go back to square one. I think your previous exposure to Dave Hunt’s books should already given you a very solid foundation to build on. I still very much enjoy of reading his books.

  47. Correction:
    Rod Hembree instead of Rod Hambree

  48. It sounds like most everyone commenting is of a similar opinion that the rapture of the church is near, perhaps one could say “imminent.”

    On another front, it seems, also, that the world (unbelievers) are also talking about some impending event (s), possibly cataclysmic in nature. There have been several shows on television (like “2012″) that emphasize this theme. The latest one that I’ve heard of is called “Preppers.” The show focuses on individuals, families and fringe groups who are building bunkers and storing large amounts of food to prepare for some coming disaster. Some of these groups are quite well organized and well funded.

    I make nothing of all of this except to say that as a Christian who believes in a pretribulational rapture, this all seems to be a waste of time and money.

  49. Dear John,

    You said:
    “Since they are trusting – at least in part – on their own works, how can they look forward to the end with confidence?”

    I have the impression that they are so confident in their own work that they are very sure they will enter the gate of heaven. The list of names I gave in my last post are likely falling into such a category. I forgot to mention that, as far as I know, Caryl Productions, Chuck Smith, Billy Graham, and John Hagee are also holding the pre-trib dispensational view but believing in the Lordship Salvation gospel.

    “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:22-23

  50. Eddy,

    I have had some doubts about recommending Dave Hunt since I noticed he frequently quotes Calvinists and Spurgeon favorably. I challenged him about that and McMahon answered saying the quotes they use are applicable for their use — completely ignoring my point that recommending them would encourage their readers to look further into their authors whose quotes he used. They seem deaf or blind to some things..

    I thoroughly enjoyed Hunt’s book, “What Love Is This?”. I have used it for much research and still would if I could read the print.. but I now know to beware their attitude on some recommendations. I just wonder if McMahon has sorta taken the helm at The Berean Call.

    Thanks for your list of pre-trib LS folks. I recognize the names of most. I don’t rely on or study any of them.
    ~~~~~~~~
    Bruce, .

    Thanks for your comments on the imminent Rapture..

    I know of some folks who might be considered “Preppers” but these are usually Conservatives who know and study politics more than the Bible. And then of course there are the Mormons — who are required by their church to have a large stock of preps for an imminent disaster. The world IS waiting for a cataclysmic event !!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  51. Bruce, I agree that it is quite ridiculous to think that one could prepare to survive the tribulation. That is, short of coming to faith in Christ. There is also no better time than now for people to become believers.

    I remember that even in the days of the early church they thought that Christ’s return was imminent. Today for sure all things are possible for the rapture to take place. To be sure we should live like time is precious.

    Eddy,

    Thanks for you thoughts. Many good points there. It was always my understanding that once the church is taken up that things would basically revert in some ways back to how things were in Old Testament times. God’s focus will be more so again on the nation of Israel and the end times events leading up to his coming to earth. It would seem to me then that most believers to survive the tribulation would be of the nation of Israel. Eph 2-8-9 may still be in effect but how many gentiles (if not killed by then) will believe at that time – probably not many.

    Pearl,

    I hope that you are able to take all this in but give it time. Many people have a hard time with this stuff even though they have Bible degrees. Just take one step at a time. Much of this would have been very hard for me to understand were it not for faithful teachers who contributed to my understanding over the last 25 years or so.

  52. Dear Jack,
    Thanks for giving out the warning on Dave Hunt’s ministry. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I should have given out the warning every time I mention Dave Hunt, McMahon, or their ministries. It looks like to me McMahon has pretty much taken the helm. By the way, I sent to both Dave Hunt and McMahon emails warning them of Mark Cahill’s Lordship Salvation stand and I am still waiting for their replies.

  53. I appreciate everyone’s contributions. Sorry to be getting back so late: last night was pizza night with an old Sherlock Holmes flick.

    I can say with (almost) certainty that my Arminian friend does not subscribe to the church replacing Israel, and know that he has a great love and concern for them as a people and nation. I do recall his giving me an article expressing his understanding of the relationship between the church and Israel, claiming a third option. I’ll have to dig that up and review it again.

    But of the pre-wrath ministries whose websites I am acquainted, all are pro-Israel. Really, the only difference in theology I see at face value (minus reading the fine print and the fact that nearly all ministries are LS) is the timing of the rapture and a preoccupation with the identity of the antichrist (as they believe we’re currently in the book of Revelation, after the letters to the churches, somewhere during the breaking of the seal judgments, I think). As you can probably tell, I’ve not spent nearly as much time studying this view, which did pique my interest at my first initial exposure back in late 2010. However, I had other simultaneous concerns going on in my own life (with some Keswick teachers as I expressed here many weeks ago) and followed Jack’s gravatar link here from another blog which he and I used to frequent. Looking back, I see God’s gracious hand directing me to much greener pastures that I may get other, more gravely important things straightened out. I don’t regret a day!

    Thanks for the links, Jim. I will follow up with them as soon as I’m done here.

    I’m glad, Jack, to know that I don’t have to go all the way back to square one. Your advice to pick up right where I am, knowing and possessing God’s grace, is comforting to me. He’s never in a hurry, is He?

    Thank you, Eddy, for your encouraging notes as well. I’m so glad my cell phone is a relic of the technological dark ages (no internet connection). I’ve had the same one since 2005 and pray it lasts! I don’t want to be tempted by those fancy-schmancy smart phones (and they are tempting). God forbid I become like those whose heads are perpetually bent down, scrutinizing the tiny screen while in the company of others. (Don’t get me started…;-) )

    Ya’ll are a great crowd, and I’m thankful for each of you.

  54. Dear Pearl,
    Even your 7 years old cell phone has GPS. They already know your every move. As I said before, I am not against technology. The purpose of my posting is to point out how close we are to the fulfilment of the prophecies mentioned in the Bible. I am pretty sure you will not be able to resist the temptation of upgrading your phone for long. Here are some of the things you would be able to do with the current generation of smart phones:

    Have the KJV with you all the time
    Blog with others on this site
    Listen to Tom’s sermon
    Don’t need to say sorry to others here of being late :-)
    Easily exchange contact informations with strangers interested in knowing more about the gospel.

    By the way, according to Tom, he is using the iPhone which is the smartest of all smart phones. More power to him.

  55. I just got this piece of news. I would say the writing is on the wall what they are going to do in the second half of tribulation.

    Google: “Global manhunt will leverage social media to find ‘suspects’”

  56. Pearl,

    We are happy you are an integral part and early member of this “great crowd.” We appreciate you.

    I just traded in my 10 year old cell phone for a new basic flip phone — no Internet, texting, email and such junk.. only because my old one was dropping calls, I could no longer read the screen, etc.

    Pearl don’t let Eddy talk you out of being a fellow Troglodyte. We must stick together.

    BTW, Dr. Tom and Sue are coming for a short visit tonight, spend the night and then leaving tomorrow PM.. so we are looking for a great time of catching up on our face-to-face fellowship.

    I will try to wrest his iPhone from him and surreptitiously substitute my ten year old cell flip-phone.. He’ll never notice the difference. 8-)

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  57. Social media: scary stuff, and I don’t believe I’ll be tempted enough to venture beyond blogging toward FB et al. Oh, and about those RFID chips: they’re in everyyyyyyyything! Also, have you heard the phrase “internet of things”? I learned about it here:

    http://www.omegaletter.com/articles/articles.asp?ArticleID=7193 (my including the link is for technological information only; not an endorsement of the ministry)

    At the risk of sounding hokey, it’s like we’re being absorbed/desensitized into a more “comfortable”, “controllable” virtual reality. Addiction indeed! (Boiled frogs, anyone?)

    Btw, I do have the first generation i-pad. And yeah, it’s cool.

  58. You got it, Jack. What’s all the fuss about, anyway? I’m perfectly happy with my existing cell phone:

    http://blu.stb.s-msn.com/i/1E/5F643AEED327A16198C884B3273D3D.jpg

  59. Dear Pearl,

    Just in case you’ve not already known, Jack Kinsella, the Omega Letter Editor, is clearly teaching Lordship Salvation in one of his articles.

    Google: “License To Sin, August 07, 2008-The Omega Letter”

  60. Eddy,

    Thanks. You are right about Kinsella — and that is why Pearl put the disclaimer, “my including the link is for technological information only; not an endorsement of the ministry)

    It really is disheartening to see so much bad mixed with the good. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Pearl,
    An iPad???? Hmmmm you risk getting kicked out of the Troglodyters.

    And that pic?? You have white hair and a goatee? Interesting. But you do have a nice smile. 8-)

    In Christ eternally, Jack

  61. Dear Jack,
    Thanks for pointing out Pearl’s disclaimer. For some strange reason, I just missed that part.

  62. The LS guys are not worth reading or listening to on any spiritual matters. They will only lead the unsaved to double down on works. They will not lead anyone to the Lord.

    The fact that they know that the end is near does not distinguish them from any other false teachers.

  63. Hi Pearl and Jack, et. al.,

    Can you believe that I still have never owned a cell phone? I admit that I have borrowed my wife’s cell when taking a long trip. Good thing because it saved me when I broke down once.

    Bruce

  64. Dear Jack and Bruce,
    If possible, please replace the the line in my previous post

    Google: “License To Sin?? – The Omega Letter”

    with the following line

    Google: “License To Sin August 07, 2008 The Omega Letter”

    I just found out that he wrote two different articles with identical titles.

    DONE

  65. Thanks.

  66. Thanks John,

    You have opened one more window into the corrupt mind of Warren. This is additional evidence of how wild is the spread of the mega pastor/church apostates.

    For our new reader friends, some time back we wrote a couple of articles on Warren’s Daniel Plan and now see how much further and faster it is progressing:
    http://expreacherman.com/2011/02/14/beware-rick-warrens-new-age-daniel-plan-it-sounds-so-good-but-poison/

    And:
    http://expreacherman.com/2011/01/11/rick-warren-and-his-latest-apostate-health-efforts/

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  67. Thanks for the warning anyway, Eddy. A year ago this time I would have required it since I wasn’t aware that the majority of ministries are not only ignorant of LS, but that they themselves present a false gospel message in spite of appearing quite discerning. Nor did I recognize how terms like “repent” and “discipleship” are misused. I’ve learned a lot since you, John, JimF, Jimmy (and others) came along.

    Thanks for noticing, Jack. My goatee is my pride and joy!

    Bruce…you’ve got to be the only guy in California without a cellphone :shock: ! Jack, I nominate Bruce to be our club president ;-) !

  68. Pearl,

    Bruce would not qualify as Pres by your “no cell” standards…. He has his own special agent in residence as his Cell Bearer. That is cheating. So he is disqualified but we need not be leaderless.

    The Lord, however, qualifies as our Leader!! (No need for a cell phone but a direct line).

    Incidentally, Tom and Sue Cucuzza left this afternoon after a glorious and encouraging overnight stay with Shirley and me. Sue still looks as young as she did when she came to our youth meeting and trusted Christ as her Savior.. Tom has aged maybe 5 years (and they have been in MN for 30 years).. They have a passel of great looking grandkids!! What special encouragement and inspiration they are to me — still standing unflinchingly for God’s wonderful Grace. We were blessed beyond measure.
    Incidentally, Eddy I was not able to wrest his iPhone away and give him my old junker..

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  69. Hi Pearl and Jack,

    Funny comments about being “cellphless,” ha ha ha. How did you like that double entendre?

    Blessings friends!

    Bruce

  70. Dear Pearl and Jack,
    Thanks for your soothing comments to calm me down after I read Francis Chan’s article pointed out by Bruce in another thread. I am very happy that God is still using Jack to glorify His name. Tom and his household are the fruits. Praise the Lord for He is good.

    “I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.” John 15:5

  71. Celphless – Genius, Bruce!

    I’m so happy to hear you all had a great visit, Jack, and echo Eddy’s thoughts.

  72. James Sunduist

    Having written two books exposing and demolishing RIck Warren’s PDL/Global Peace Purpose-Driven Principalties, I invite you to be apprised of:

    MAKING MERCHANDISE OF MEN’S SOULS film documentary trailer can be viewed at [link removed by administration]

    On an update, Rick Warren has now joined forces with Joel Osteen to speak at Hillsong 2013 Conference in Australia:
    [link removed]

    Rick Warren endorses two New Age authors:
    [link removed]

    In this regard, I invite you to be alerted to the following revelations on Rick Warren.

    Rick Warren clamored for his Global Peace Plan and touted it to included Muslims. He even changed the P from Plant Churches to Promote Reconciliation in order diffuse any chance of offending Muslims. Even tried to invoked Scripture to justify it including Muslims…long before the recent uproar in the OC Register. What does he take us all for…fools? Who does he think he is kidding? And as you both point out he signed the Christian Response long before the OC uproars. This is beyond the pale!

    BOTTOM LINE:

    THERE IS NO WAY THAT THE PRINCE OF PEACE IS GOING TO FORGE HIS GLOBAL PEACE PLAN WITH THE PRINCE OF DARKNESS (RICK WARREN’S GLOBAL PEACE PLAN HE IS FORGING WITH MUSLIMS)

  73. Welcome to Expreacherman, James!

    Thank you for giving to us the stern warnings about Rick Warren’s aberrant theology and his ecumenical collaborations with non-Christian groups and teaching.

    It is the site policy to generally limit links to one or two. Also, the administrators don’t give blanket endorsements to sites with which we are not familiar. Nothing negative was noticed and the readers are certainly welcome to check out your web site as well as your prolific authorship listed at Amazon.

    http://www.theperfectpeaceplan.com

    Thanks again for writing and blessings on your ministry.

  74. James wrote: “On an update, Rick Warren has now joined forces with Joel Osteen to speak at Hillsong 2013 Conference in Australia”

    I do appreciate the ministries of those that expose how crazy it’s getting out there. Warren and Osteen threw doctrine in the garbage long ago.

    I think what is a bit disappointing to me is, there are so many people that don’t see the writing on the wall with these guys.

    But then I remember, there are also plenty of people that do see the truth, and don’t follow these guys.

  75. So when do you all feel it is appropriate to say someone is doing evil when they join hands with these people?

    I used 2 John 1:9-11 concerning Rick Warren on a note I posted on my FB page today about contending without being contentious. First, the gentleman, who is a Bible teacher at a Baptist church took offense to me marking Warren.

    HE SAID: “The passage is talking about those who “do not abide in the doctrine of Christ” not about born again believers who are caught up in lesser error. To not have the doctrine of Christ is directly related to His atoning death and subsequent resurrection, not every other teaching in the Bible. Rick Warren should never be lumped in with Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney is unsaved. Rick Warren is a believer in Jesus Christ whether one likes or rejects his other teachings.”

    He said more, but I couldn’t pin him down on when to mark and avoid someone. I guess if you hold to the apostles creed you are good. I guess associations don’t matter.

    He then used the prophecy concerning Jesus from Isaiah 42 (bruised reed”) to tell me I would do well to remember it, for he said, “A person’s faith in Christ does not have to be terribly strong or crystal clear in order to receive salvation which is a free gift. We want to oppose bad teaching, but encourage even very weak true faith.”

    He then went on to other things, won’t go into it. So what is your take here, all of you, when is the appropriate time to say someone is not abiding in the doctrine of Christ? Or bringing divisions contrary to the doctrine we learned? What doctrine do we take heed to? When is someone “sharing in their evil deeds”?

  76. Forgot to mark myself for follow up comments, and would really like to hear your input. Speaking to regeneration before faith, I asked, “Isn’t that denying the gospel”? And his answer was that no, it was simply not understanding the gospel… sigh…

    Looking forward to hearing your clear lines. I know where I believe they go, but would like to hear from you without my own input.

  77. Holly, I believe any of the following constitute a denial of the Gospel (note: I paraphrased Clear Gospel Campaign – see link, below):

    1. Denial of the Deity of Christ – this could include belief in polytheism, a radical evolutionary view of man or the universe, and pantheism.
    2. Denial of the sufficiency of the atonement of Christ – this could include belief in observation of the Lord’s supper as a vicarious sacrifice capable of contributing to the atonement for sins, belief that our sins must be further paid for in purgatory, and the belief that one can lose salvation through sin.
    3. Denial of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ
    4. Denial of the doctrine of Grace – this could include belief that works such as Baptism or public confession of Christ are required for salvation, or that promises of future works such as “repenting of one’s sins” or “committing one’s life to Christ” are required for salvation, or the belief that one must persevere in good works to confirm they are saved.

    In addition to the above, the following false doctrines are likely to result in corruption of the Gospel:

    1. Infused, Sovereign or Irresistible Grace
    2. Faith as a “work”
    3. Popular gospel substitutes (such as “turn your life over to Christ”, “Give your heart to God”, etc.)
    4. Conversion testimonies that focus on changed lives

    http://www.cleargospel.org/statement.php?label=doctrinal&c_id=347

    I would mark and avoid anyone that taught any of the above.

  78. Thanks for your input. I know Rick’s book, via the Mess-AGE version new age bible imitation, uses panentheism when Eph 4:6 is quoted I believe. I know the reasons to mark and avoid someone, basically this man is stating that Warren and even Calvin did not deny Jesus, therefore we should not say they are not abiding in the doctrine of Christ.

    HE SAID: (C/P-although I fixed his spelling, couldn’t help myself:) )
    “I believe that anyone who claims Christ as the Son of God as their Savior is truly saved. That includes Calvin, who I personally believe has done more harm to the church than a 100 Rick Warren’s.”

  79. Hi Holly,

    Jack, I and many others here, I’m sure, have appreciated your strong stand against false teaching in the church and your upholding of the Free Grace Gospel of the Bible.

    Re. your open question, I will just relate some things that happened to me in my teaching of the Bible at my local church (I teach a group of fifty adults on Sunday mornings). Last year, I taught a series of expose’ on some of the leading teachers of false doctrine on the Christian scene today. I quoted some of these men in their own self-condemning words. I exposed their apostate teachings (LS, ecumenicism, Eastern mysticism, etc.). Reactions: mixed but mostly supportive. One man and his wife left the class for good because I dared speak out against his beloved Rick Warren (I detailed Warren’s embrace of Islam). “He’s a good Christian man,” this person said, “You shouldn’t be putting him down.” Several people thanked me for bringing the information to light (most had no idea what these men have truly taught). Several more asked questions and wanted more information. One man warned me not to speak against Calvinism any more or I might get in trouble with some in church leadership. I have ignored that warning.

  80. No man is sacred. We have our example in the scriptures, all we require now is boldness and faithfulness.

    Paul said,

    For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
    In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?” 1Cor.5:3-6

    But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
    For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
    And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
    But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?” Gal.2:11-14

    “This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
    Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.” 1Tim1:18-20

    “For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica;…only Luke is with me.” 2Tim4:10,11

    “Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.” 2Tim4:14-16

    John said,

    “I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.” 3John1:9,10

  81. Thank you for all your good words, Pearl, Bruce, John :)

    Funny, I think it’s harder for an older generation than most to accept speaking against their beloved icons. He came back and although I did not question anyone’s salvation, (as he accused of twice), he then said, “Perhaps a little history will give some much needed perspective in this matter of condemning someone to Hell because their teaching is off or they have compromised where they shouldn’t.”

    I didn’t read the rest of his comment at that point, as no one had condemned anyone to hell, nor had anyone suggested such a thing, but I have seen this more than once.

    In one of my classes, as the conversation went to Billy Graham, and some speculated some things that I could not really know (the masonry subject), I was called on and mentioned that I liked to stick more with things I’d heard from the man’s mouth, such as saying some would be saved without even knowing who Jesus was, and the teachings over the years.

    The teacher called me later and told me several had threatened to quit because of me. It’s funny because there were others more animated about conspiracy type things (not saying they are or are not true), but I stuck with doctrinal issues, mentioned a few, and some quit and were not going to come back if I mentioned anything else.

    It’s heart breaking to me, that people don’t love God’s Word more than these mens. Thank you all for your sharing of His Word, your thoughts (which I agree with) and just a little infusion of exhortation by His Word (which I needed). A lot under the weather, I respect older people and do not want to offend, I want to choose my words carefully, but there does come a time where we have to speak about the errors of doctrine.

  82. Holly, much of the persecution that is discussed in the Bible comes in the form of persecution from religious people, as many of us have discovered.

    Following are some pertinent scriptural passages to provide us comfort and perspective:

    James 1:2-4:

    “James My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.”

    1 Peter 1:6-7:

    “Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ”

  83. Holly,

    There are truly times when we need to point out doctrinal error and warn against those false teaching. It is the loving thing to do. The hard part comes in when we communicate. I’ve learned to at times phrase things in the form of a question. It gets people to think about the issue at hand rather than getting their guard up. One teacher of mine in college always said “Accusations harden the will but questions convict the soul.” I have found truth in that.

    Sometimes it takes a good amount of time in prayer to ask God to help you season your speech with salt and to help you receive and negative reaction with grace, love, and forbearance. My philosophy is to take personal attacks in stride and, with love, keep the eternal focus in mind knowing that my stand for the truth and warning against error may just have an eternal payoff. That benefit would not necessarily be for me but for those who hear the truth. For me I take nothing personal and I know that they really are in rebellion against God and his truth.

    Here are some verses that I use to help my focus from the book of Colossians. I highly recommend reading through this book.

    Col 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
    Col 3:12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
    Col 3:13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
    Col 3:14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.
    Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.
    Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
    Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

    Col 4:3 At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison–
    Col 4:4 that I may make it clear, which is how I ought to speak.
    Col 4:5 Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time.
    Col 4:6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

    Proverbs 15 is another must read chapter.

    Pro 15:1 A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
    Pro 15:12 A scoffer does not like to be reproved; he will not go to the wise.
    Pro 15:18 A hot-tempered man stirs up strife, but he who is slow to anger quiets contention.
    Pro 15:28 The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things.
    Pro 15:31 The ear that listens to life-giving reproof will dwell among the wise.

    I Peter 3 is also one that has help me very much along the same lines.

    1Pe 3:8 Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.
    1Pe 3:9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.
    1Pe 3:10 For “Whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit;
    1Pe 3:11 let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it.
    1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”
    1Pe 3:13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good?
    1Pe 3:14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,
    1Pe 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,
    1Pe 3:16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.
    1Pe 3:17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil.

    It my prayer in life in working with others to have a forbearing mindset yet stand for the faith. Hope this helps.

    Jim F

  84. John, thank you for those verses, I am ever grateful for the trying of my faith, and I do rejoice for His work in me! I will save those to look at during these times. I didn’t share with you all, but Jack knows more about some of the things that transpire at times, he sees a little through my FB public page, but we have a Berean Group, a women’s Bible study, Prayer group and some fellow groups that I started and this week has been very intense.

    Posting Washer’s comment about us applauding people to hell, brought a blocking from an older woman who wanted to know “which preacher I was going to attack next”.

    A little stronger response from the man who blocked me next, who said I was the type that would approve of “murder and adultery” before he blocked me.

    One woman on that same thread got so angry, she took it to her own page and her friends took it further to say I had “fallen away from the faith”. All these things keep me in prayer and digging into His Word to make sure I am rightly dividing in each situation. I appreciate the encouragement, God bless you all today.

  85. Jim, thank you, I agree completely that I’ve found that asking questions is much more useful. One of my standards is 2 Tim 2:23-26 and Col 4:5-6 of course in thinking of who may be hearing, and possibly if they are not saved. Tit 2:7-8, although I know it’s directed to young men, I still find it helpful to remember these things, particularly the sound speech that cannot be condemned.
    In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
    Sometimes I guess someone will not hear, actually quite often they will not, but I’m so blessed when someone does, and comes out of false teaching, or sees and stops sharing false teaching.

    I asked this man several questions, I guess he was just too upset or too intent on getting his own point across to hear. One was about overcomers. He said that not all who were saved were overcomers. I asked about I John 5:4-5, he said it wasn’t the same thing, but about a “victorious life” vs. a definition of who an overcomer is.

    Later he brought a video in that Rick Warren had spoken about preaching. He was given much good information by many, but right now sadly, he is not willing to hear.

    It is hard at times when other professing believers, even pastors, or like this gentleman, a Bible Study teacher, attack with their words. All I can say is the old Holly used to be quite good at that, and I pray I will recognize it when I use the flesh myself and pray before I speak.

    I try generally to do doctrine held up to the light of His Word. I understand completely the battle it is and do not take it personally, although many times it does hurt.

    This week another called me a Jezebel, Whore of Babylon, spirit of control, spirit of witchcraft, and many other things, both in one group and also after I personally blocked him, on other people’s pages.

    The advice of some of the men?
    “Don’t you think you should take this private?”

    I’m just thankful I’m never alone. And I try to keep balanced with being in the strong meat of His Word and spending plenty of time with Him. Thank you for all the good advice, I take heed, and I agree, and I appreciate always counsel from His Word, which I will also save and savor :).

    In His love to you all.

  86. Holly,

    I think I am in agreement with you on the overcomer position. It think some take it to mean something that it is not.

    Yes, the responses from others can hurt at times. I guess it is just part of the cross that we must bear if we are going to stand for the truth. Of course the world will hate us if we are His because the reject and hate Him. Just look at how the “religious” Jews of Jesus day treated Him and His disciples.

    “This week another called me a Jezebel, Whore of Babylon, spirit of control, spirit of witchcraft, and many other things, both in one group and also after I personally blocked him, on other people’s pages.”

    You can usually easily tell which people you can have serious and productive conversation with and which should probably be blocked. Most people I think have given up trying to debate me too much on my facebook page. I usually just get the silent treatment if they don’t like something. Thankfully I have a blog now and I can already tell that it has great potential. I may even start a men’s Bible study one of these days but I need to plan the time for it.

    I’ll be praying that you keep up the good fight. You have support from some of us regulars here at Expreacherman.

    Jim F

  87. Jim, you know we tried to start a Men’s Bible study on FB, there were men looking and we opened a group for one who didn’t know quite how to do it. It did not work because he maybe wasn’t able to give the time to know others, and so it just didn’t work at that time.

    Those names were actually kind of surreal although it’s not been the first such attack, and won’t be the last. I agree on seeing who will hear, who might hear, who is closed to hearing :)

    I’ll look for you on FB, God bless you too, do I know your blog?

  88. Holly,

    Jack links to my blog at the main page on Expreacherman. It is http://www.standforthefaith.wordpress.com. Also, I have selected to follow your posts on facebook.

    A men’s bible study on facebook might be difficult if people are not motivated. It also does require a decent time committment.

  89. Thanks Jim, I found it last night, and there are some great articles, I will be sharing some, thank you.

    We’re still working the kinks out on the women’s Bible study, we’re maybe going to try Skype and also there is a free conference call, so I’m going to try to add that to the written portion. Thanks so much, God bless your day.

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