Andy Stanley’s Catalyst “Leadership” Now in SoCal with Rick Warren

As if Andy Stanley’s big Catalyst Leadership shindig a few weeks ago in Atlanta, featuring speakers Cornell West, Mark Driscoll, et al was not enough, Andy has expanded his CatalystOneDay Leadership Conference to Orange County, California. meeting with Rick Warren in Rick’s Saddleback Church.

Another Andy Stanley Catalyst Meeting: Now with Rick Warren

After this, they move to South Barrington, IL in November then from one venue to another monthly – My dear friends, this is simply indicative of Creeping “fundamental” Ecumenism.

Here’s our Article On the Catalyst Leadership Conference in Atlanta October 6, 2011. If you have not read it, please do.

Beware: Catalyst Conference 2011, Chan, Driscoll, et al.

With this latest bash being held at Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church, we see “fundamental Christian” ecumenism at its worst. If you are unaware of the Rick Warren problem,” we have written extensively about him and his jaunts into various errors.

Here are just a few articles — but Warren’s errors are too many to mention here:

Rick Warren, Tony Blair, John Piper – Togetherness?

Beware Rick Warren’s New Age Daniel Plan. It sounds so good, but… POISON

Rick Warren Speaks to Islam Muslims – No Gospel

This is terribly sad — so many are falling for the Emergent ecumenical error. Where have the proponents of Biblical Discernment gone?

The True Biblical Free Grace Gospel << Click

55 responses to “Andy Stanley’s Catalyst “Leadership” Now in SoCal with Rick Warren

  1. But it “feeeeeeels” good, Jack!

  2. Pearl,

    Yep, but I fear too many “feeeeeel good” religions are preparing the way to hell for poor, unsuspecting, misled souls.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  3. Oh what a surprise!
    It always goes back to Rick Warren.

  4. Jack, the proponents of biblical discernment are right here, gathered on your blog. Undiscerning people flock to meetings such as Stanley’s because they think there’s some exciting thing they are going to here or that they will get some personal prophesy that will help them get out of their rut.

    The false teachers travel from place to place with their poison, attracting a lot of unsuspecting victims.

    Someone posted a video advertisement on your blog here, Jack. I don’t think that belongs on here.

    Pearl, yep! It’s all about feelings! People want excitement and experiences, not a dull, boring relationship with God. I know because I got roped into it when I was in the cult. A lady told me that we could feel the presence of God and taught me how to “soak in His presence.” Very creepy! I cannot believe I actually got involved in that weird stuff, and I give God so much thanks and praise for getting me out of there!

  5. Thanks Marcella,

    I do not see the video ad you mentioned..Is it on THIS page? Please be specific so I may check it out.

    Often folks try to put ads by “pingbacks” so I appreciate your help.

    In Christ eternally, Jack

  6. Jack, the video is gone now, but it was a You Tube video that appeared just below your blog posting. If it shows up again, I’ll let you know. It was a commercial for something. I thought it was part of your blog posting, so I watched it, but it meant nothing to me.

  7. So true, Faith! All religious roads may be travelled with Rick Warren which lead to Rome.

    You’ve come a long way, Marcella. Your past experiences will be a great help when reaching out.

    Jack, I saw the advertisement, too. But, having researched this on WordPress just last week, I learned there’s nuthin’ you can do about it unless you get your own domain (for a small fee, that is). It’s harmless enough, just an occasional “blot” on the screen.

  8. Thanks Marcella,
    We are not supposed to have any advertising at all.. I opted out of that.. but WordPress has begun some kind of stuff with the corrupt Google company — so maybe they have sneaked in some videos. I’m sure they will pay me for it….Not!!

    Pearl,
    We now have our own domain, Bruce sprung for it yesterday. It is now just ExPreacherman.com (without the WordPress) and it links back to everything we have been doing all along at WordPress. Kinda neat if I can figure it out.

    Look at the bar at the top of your browser and it should simply read expreacherman.com/blah_blah

    New to me so I am trying to figure what we have now. Bear with us. Thanks.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  9. Yeh Pearl:

    Rick Warren with John Piper
    Rick Warren with Chuck Smith
    Rick Warren with Andy Stanley
    Rick Warren with Dr. Oz (New Age Doctor)
    Rick Warren with CAIR
    Rick Warren with Robert Schuller

    Who have I missed?

  10. Faith,

    Could we sum them all up with one name?
    Mr. A.Postate

    In Christ eternally, Jack

  11. My mom watches Dr. Oz and talks about things on his show all of the time. She’s into holistic health practices. I’ve told her to be careful about the stuff on Dr. Oz’s show because he’s not a medical doctor. I also warned Mom about Oprah Winfrey years ago, but she said Oprah is a good person and does all kinds of good things for people. Maybe so, but she believes in the New Age god.

    Jack, your sense of humor is wonderful!

  12. Hmm. I was just going to write “redefining Christianity” and realized that is the title of a book that has already been written about Rick Warren. I happen to have that book, in fact. I don’t think at the time that I realized how prophetic that book title would be. That really is exactly what is happening with all of this. Christianity is being intentionally redefined into something that can be plugged into the one world religion. Warren has been a major catalyst for this from the beginning. Very slow but very discernible for those who are paying attention.

    A while ago someone said Warren’s star had faded and he was no longer on the radar. Not so. He is very much still in the loop of all this. It seems to be happening in phases. I’m not sure what phase 1 could really be called, but since I came in on all this with Rick Warren I’ll call him phase 1. So Warren/Purpose Driven was phase 1. Phase 2 was Emergent. But that went too far and had to be pulled back so phase 3 is the New Calvinism: everything everybody wanted from Emergent, but with the nasty parts left out.

    So the Purpose Driven porridge was too hot, while the Emergent porridge was too cold. But the New Calvinism porridge is just right.

    Or something like that.

    JanH

  13. I just did an internet search on “Rick Warren – false teacher,” and it came up with 2,090,000 results. That should be telling people something!!

    Here’s what USA Today printed about Andy Stanley on 10/10/2007, “Andy Stanley, senior pastor of North Point Ministries in Atlanta, suggested that churches should not focus solely on converting people, as has been the emphasis for generations.
    “If we were able to rewrite the script for the reputation of Christianity, I think we would put the emphasis on developing relationships with non-believers, serving them, loving them, and making them feel accepted,” he wrote. “Only then would we earn the right to share the gospel.”

    What?! “Rewrite the script for the reputation of Christianity”? Since when do Christians have to “earn the right to share the gospel”???

  14. Jack, your humorous comments are great!

  15. Jan,

    Your analysis is spectacular, humorous and unfortunately true. People are buying one version or the other of Rick Warren like Cotton Candy at a carnival.. with just as much substance.

    Thanks Marcella,

    I plan to be a comedian when I grow up some day. 8-)

    In Christ eternally, Jack

  16. Marcella,

    You are right , Christians never have to “earn the right” share the Gospel, we are given the Privilege and the tools the moment we trust Jesus as our Savior. Of course those tools need some honing and perfecting along the way but that should not stop any believer from sharing their Savior with the lost.

    In Christ, Jack

  17. Is that an LS heresy – that Christians have to earn the right to share the gospel, just as they have to earn their way into Heaven?

  18. Hi all,

    Just home from work (West Coast time) and I discovered this wonderful conversation going on with so many wonderful brothers and sisters in Christ. Is this what heaven will be like?

    Marcella,

    Nice to hear from you; great comments!

    Jan,

    Your summation comment was very profound:

    “So the Purpose Driven porridge was too hot, while the Emergent porridge was too cold. But the New Calvinism porridge is just right.
    Or something like that.”

    You reminded me anew of how vaaaaast and troublesome are these new movements. You also reminded me of why it is so crucial for me and other Christians to research and study about what’s going on in the Christian world, always, of course, to analyze everything that is being taught and promoted in light of WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. New Calvinism has been particularly troublesome to me in recent months as I have witnessed the movement, under the name of “The Revolution Church,” literally SWALLOW UP a sixty-year old Evangelical Christian church through a hostile takeover. The movement is currently working on taking over another large established church in my region, as we speak. I have tried to get more information on “Revolution,” but it must be a tightly-lipped movement, because I haven’t been able to find out much about them. I and another person have also tried to warn some folks who have connection to the current takeovers going on in our area, but our warnings seem to have all fallen on deaf ears.

  19. Marcella, you asked a great question:

    “Is that an LS heresy – that Christians have to earn the right to share the gospel, just as they have to earn their way into Heaven?”

    I think that you are correct in your assessment, Marcella. Since LS (Lordship Salvation) teaches that only the most faithful, on-fire, devoted Christians are probably truly saved (although they can’t really BE SURE until they make it to heaven one day), then it follows logically that only the truly devoted ones (whatever that means) would have earned the right to share the gospel. But what “gospel??” LS is no gospel at all; it is certainly no gospel of hope and joy, as is the grace gospel of Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3:16 and Acts 16:30-31.

    As this discussion site has well-chronicled over the years, most LS advocates are also Five Point (TULIP) Calvinists, although JanH has recently pointed out that there are some Arminian LS in existence. So I will broaden out your question even farther, Marcella. If LS is primarily a Calvinist “gospel,” then why would someone who holds to such an heretical teaching even bother giving out the gospel at all? If God’s got it all slated out who’s going to heaven and who’s going to hell and he basically forces salvation upon the individual, and the person herself has absolutely no say in the matter, no decision to make to believe in Christ for salvation, then why give out any gospel at all? Wouldn’t the LS evangelists just be heaping more condemnation upon all of those people whom God has not slated out for salvation?

  20. Bruce, thanks for your feedback to my question. LS/Calvinism sure is a twisted up mess!

    You talked about The Revolution Church. We have some similar churches here where I live under the names of embrace church (iamembrace) and The Ransom. I have a co-worker, who goes to The Ransom and loves it. She invited me, but I will not go. I’ve been able to witness to her warn her about some things. She listens to a heap of false teachers and talks highly of them.

    When you talked about The Revolution Church taking over churches in your area, the first thing that came to me was Pharoah’s dream in Genesis 41 – the lean kine ate up the fat kine and the thin ears of corn devoured the full ears. I think my logic is that something comes along that’s weak and it takes over that which is fully established and destroys it. The interpretation to Pharoah’s dreams was that there would be seven years of plenty and seven years of famine. When the false churches come along and take over the established biblical churches, there’s a righteous famine that takes place as people turn from biblical teaching unto false teaching. I hope I’m not taking this scripture out of context or speaking falsely, but am just trying to make a point.

    There are alot of false churches where I live, and several more have popped up this year. They seem to be everwhere, and growing in popularity with those, who are biblically undiscerning.

  21. Hi Marcella,

    I think that your citation of the fat and lean cows is a pretty good analogy of what is going on in Christian churches today. The old established churches have probably been ripe for the takeover for a long time through decades of shallow teaching of the Bible (if the Bible is even being used any more) and a focus upon things like relationships, psychology, self-help, community service, poverty abatement, on and on. I once heard one of the Crouchs’ sons on TBN say something like, “Doctrine isn’t all that important.” That is quite an indictment on the state of much of Christianity today. It has been my goal and passion for several years of teaching the Bible to impart the deeper truths of Scripture, such as the nature of God, what is sin, salvation and assurance, heaven, hell, and eschatology. I have found that Christians are truly hungry for the deeper truths of the Bible.

  22. Good to see you Marcella and appreciate your discerning comments.
    And Jack love the humor. :)
    Bruce I agree that there are many Christians that are hungry for the Word, but are in churches that are not feeding them. These are cotton candy churches- it tastes sweet but full of air- no substance to nourish in the faith.
    It is true that these churches have taken over existing churches and literally kick out those who may object- “You are either with us or against us mentality”. Boy, this is a image of Christs church- right?!! :( When I see the contrast of Paul and the preachers today there is a major difference- humility. Paul was humble in his love for Christ and the church. He was a protector of the sheep, not fleecing them.
    I recently have left a church because of the organization it was under- it uses the “Moses” model and more and more allegations of abuse (all kinds) are coming out on this organization and various churches that are under this organization. The church I was going to did not abuse but we could not be under the organization. This is the problem I see, that more and more are put under these “Christian” organizations that have become so big and so powerful that it is almost impossible to change that church back to its original purpose and that is to serve Christ only. So then false teaching and abuse (and this is becoming more prevalent) continues.

  23. Bruce-

    I wasn’t able to find anything on Revolution Church either. I couldn’t find a beginning source or person it was attached to.

    It seems like a new way of packaging the Christian/church experience in order to “coolify” it for the youth: making God relevant to them and the church relevant to society, etc. The whole movement, including Revolution Church, is definitely youth oriented, that’s for sure. Congdon pointed that out in his talk at Middletown Bible a few years ago (he didn’t mention Revolution Church then but the whole New Calvinism thing, of which I suspect Revolution Church is a part). This whole movement is geared toward youth. I’m not really sure what they think they are going to accomplish with that, nor what they think older people are for. It’s weird.

    I know some church called Revolution Church out of Phoenix, I think, has ties with Driscoll’s Acts 29 deal. But that is by no means the only Revolution Church there is. They’re like, all independent but with the exact same idea and tone, and name. It obviously came from somewhere but no one is owning up to it so it has an appearance of being organic, but is really no more organic than a million different restaurants all getting the exact same idea for burgers and fries and all just happening to chose the name McDonald’s.

    And in general with these groups, for all their Lordship talk, I haven’t figured out how they are any different from the world. They look like the world, dress like the world, talk like the world, think like the world, have music like the world, are raunchy like the world, are all about the world in seeking to change the world, engage the world, bring God’s kingdom to the world (and I can’t tell how God’s kingdom is any different than Karl Marx’s with these folks)….Not sure where Christ’s lordship actually comes into play here.

    It is truly a very creepy thing to watch.

    JanH

  24. Hi Faith,

    Thanks for your insightful comments. I especially liked your analogy:

    “These are cotton candy churches- it tastes sweet but full of air- no substance to nourish in the faith.” I may quote you some time!

    Years ago I was asked to resign from a teaching ministry because my approach was too deep, meaning that I actually taught the Bible verse by verse along with the theology revealed in the Bible. “We would rather focus upon friendship and fellowship,” was the people’s cry . . . “It’s the pastor’s job to teach the Bible,” one or two people said. . . . I left that ministry and began another. The second group was older and more mature in the faith. They were hungry for the Word and have welcomed the deeper teaching. Most of them study the Scriptures each week on their own; they ask the tough questions and they bring insightful comments. Sounds a lot like the ExPreacherman folks, eh?

  25. Bruce it is a sad thing that you were asked to resign over teaching GOD’S WORD! What then is the use of being a church if the church will not teach His Word? Why call oneself a Christian? What is the purpose? This is what always got to me! Obviously, when that Christian continues in a church like this they either end up leaving the church, becoming more of the worldly “church”, or left confused and disoriented about their faith.
    There are more and more people leaving churches then ever because – Yes! When you do not feed you end up with malnourished believers and non- believers never receiving the true Gospel- such a tragedy!

  26. Jan I have heard of the Revolution Church- I think we have one in our neck of the woods.
    These little non-denominational churches like the Revolution Church are popping up all over the place- where do they get the money? Makes you wonder. The churches I use to grow up with never had the money to do all these fandangled conferences and concerts.

  27. Hi Jan,

    Your comment was right on the money:

    “And in general with these groups, for all their Lordship talk, I haven’t figured out how they are any different from the world. They look like the world, dress like the world, talk like the world, think like the world, have music like the world, are raunchy like the world, are all about the world in seeking to change the world, engage the world, bring God’s kingdom to the world (and I can’t tell how God’s kingdom is any different than Karl Marx’s with these folks)….Not sure where Christ’s lordship actually comes into play here.” It is indeed, “creepy,” as you said. I am in contact with someone who used to be on staff at one of the churches that was taken over, so I have been able to find out a bit about its history. Here’s a snapshot:

    The Revolution Church apparently began in Long Beach, CA (my region) about 8-9 years ago. It started as the brainchild of an individual from the Reformed Church (RFIA). Its approach has been, under the guise or nomenclature of “church planting” (they love to call themselves “missional,” basically a made-up word, but you get the idea), they sidle up to established churches which are struggling with low numbers and offer to join them to “help them”. Pretty soon their numbers swell (“Where did all of these new people come from?” was one comment that I heard) and within a year or two they simply take over, replacing existing staff and ministries. I have a friend who was ousted from leadership in one of these takeovers.

    You are correct that the movement has morphed over the past eight years. And it now goes by a number of different names, such as “El Dorado,” “Park Church,” “Impact,” and the like. I think that Marcella might have discovered a couple of other names, “Embrace,” and “The Ransom.” The movement seems to be loosely knit but their approach looks about the same.

  28. Wow.

    Not too different in approach from Purpose Driven, which is also a hostile take over to implement church growth.

    Faith-

    I guess that’s where they get the money.

    JanH

  29. I think a lot of this has to do with skipping the step of trusting in Christ as Savior, before beginning to follow and serve Him.

    LS folks, no matter what the stripe, do not understand Grace. They always introduce an element of human merit. The forms this takes are varied. They are either overt, or subtle and can be front-loaded, concurrent or back-loaded. Overt forms include baptismal regeneration, public confession of Christ as an essential element of salvation, turn from sins for salvation, and commitment salvation. Subtle forms include the notion that if someone is saved, his behavior will automatically change (think “a faith that works”), that someone must desire a relationship with Christ, not just trust Him for salvation (think “commitment”).

    If you hear any of these concepts come from a professing Christian, you either have an evangelism opportunity or a chance to bring someone back to the Faith. In either case, these people are usually very “churched” and often hold leadership positions. They will feel VERY threatened when you talk to them.

    I talked to a guy from my Bible study (he is the leader and formed the group) yesterday about the plan of salvation (I used the Northland Bible Church outline). He said that the plan was just an intellectual assent and not heart faith. He told me a few interesting things.
    1. That someone had to want to have a relationship with Jesus before they could be saved (I think this is LS code for commitment).
    2. He said that he couldn’t see how someone could be saved and continue to look at porn, commit adultery, etc.
    3. He said works were not part of faith, but faith is a faith that works (he pointed out to me that a pastor had told him that)

    On these points, no one can have “a relationship with Christ” until he has trusted Him as Savior. I told the guy I was talking to that he didn’t get to add any rules to God’s plan of salvation. That God’s word is God’s word. I reminded him that everyone still sins. I reminded him of the prodigal son. I reminded him how the prodigal son had a brother who sulked when their Father welcomed the prodigal son home. I reminded him of soils two and three from the parable of the four soils.

    On the matter of “a faith that works”, I asked him if saving faith is a faith that works, what would he have someone do with that information? Would he have them work more to feel more assured? Would he have them use it to evaluate (judge) other people? Would he use it to determine whether or not he was in the faith? I asked him if the answer to any of these questions was yes, what would his quantification standards be?

    I gave him my testimony, much of which I have written about on this website.

    After about a two-hour discussion, he told me “maybe this Bible study group is not for you”. I asked him why – what was I telling him that wasn’t true? He said it was the way I go about it. He mentioned our study on James and taming the tongue. Now, I will admit that I am very direct and sometimes have trouble being gracious about Grace. However, there would have been no way to tell this guy that he was in error, without it being very threatening to him. By the way, he was able to tell me (with my tame tongue planted firmly in my cheek) that he did not believe John 3:16 (see above).

    Deeply imbedded in all of this is the idolatry. This guy thinks his merit-based view of fairness trumps God’s word. He thinks that he is more deserving of Grace than other people. He is judgmental. He does not hold out the possibility that he will fall into serious sin at some point. He confuses following Christ with being a Christian. He is very busy. He talks about his works (how much he prays, how much his behavior has changed since he was “saved”, how humble his house is, etc.).

  30. Faith,

    We could almost write a book about the mental, physical and spiritual abuses and carnal Christians in churches today.

    Oh, that’s right, our friend and mentor the Apostle Paul has already done that in his first letter to the Corinthians. There’s not room enough here for a complete verse by verse study but let’s hit a couple of high points. In Chapter one, verses 1-9, he kindly praises them as believers, addresses them as “Saints” and “sanctified [set apart] in Christ.” Yet starting in verse 10, he “lays the wood” to them because there were many contentions among them. Fights about who were the leaders? Contentions about who baptized whom, so Paul says he thanked God that he baptized none of them (but a couple).
    And then in verses 17-18 he states emphatically:
    For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

    Verse 18 is interesting.. How often do we share the simple Free Grace Gospel of the cross and are told it is foolish? We see that occasionally here on our web site.
    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    And I recall on occasion folks would complain to me that they heard the Gospel too often.. Yet we see here that the preaching of the cross is the power of God to those believers at Corinth just as it is for us today.
    Then in Chapter 2 verses 4-5 God’s Word says Paul came not with enticing words of man’s wisdom but That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. [The preaching of the Cross, the Gospel -- the Power of God].

    In Chapter 3, we see Paul speaking to them as carnal, as immature children:
    1 Corinthians 3:1
    And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    Paul was upset… In the Corinthian church there was envy, strife and divisions, fornication, brother suing brother before unbelievers. The church at Corinth was a mess yet Paul, though he questioned whether he should “bring a rod,” loved them with tough love; they were brothers, fellow saints and believers in Jesus Christ.

    It is too bad we don’t have a Paul today to go around and straighten out the churches.. Yet we do have Paul in the words the Lord gave him as he wrote to the Corinthians by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
    But sorrowfully, we know, God’s Word is neither used nor welcome in too many of the post-modern small and large “churches.”

    In Paul’s second letter to the Corinthians we see the church had returned to its Biblical and doctrinal roots. They were praised by the Apostle for their spirituality – no longer carnal.
    So we see the Lord can reverse a church’s direction but it requires pure Grace Gospel teaching and adherence to the Word of God; NOT in man’s wisdom.

    Thanks Faith — your words inspired a too-short sermonette. 8-)

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  31. That inspiration produce good words from Scripture and the message of grace- thanks Jack. :)

  32. I think a lot of this has to do with skipping the step of trusting in Christ as Savior, before beginning to follow and serve Him.

    John, I think you have a gift. Are you doing any other writing except commenting here, like a blog of your own? Because I really think you were called for such a time as this.

    I asked him if saving faith is a faith that works, what would he have someone do with that information? Would he have them work more to feel more assured? Would he have them use it to evaluate (judge) other people? Would he use it to determine whether or not he was in the faith? I asked him if the answer to any of these questions was yes, what would his quantification standards be?

    These are excellent questions. What were his answers?

    By the way, he was able to tell me (with my tame tongue planted firmly in my cheek) that he did not believe John 3:16 (see above).

    Did he actually say in so many words that he didn’t believe in John 3:16?

    That someone had to want to have a relationship with Jesus before they could be saved (I think this is LS code for commitment).

    I think you are right about that and that is very unfortunate because it co opts an otherwise valid concept. But then, they do that a lot. I have noticed, unless it’s just me, that a lot of the time they use the same terminology we use but redefine it to mean what they want it to mean. And this commitment-as-relationship really bothers me a lot because my testimony is that I wanted to have a relationship with God before I was saved, but it had nothing to do with commitment on my end. I was only 11 years old and “commitment” was not part of my vocabulary. But I did want God to be a personal friend to me, and that is what I asked Him to do and what He responded to by sending someone to share the gospel with me. Now, how am I supposed to say to an LSer that I wanted to have a relationship with God without them translating that into LSese and hearing I wanted to bow the knee and commit my life to serving King Jesus as my Lord and Master? I certainly did want a relationship with God, but a relationship of a different nature than master/slave. That idea just somehow sucks all the life and joy out of the whole thing. He didn’t give a spirit of slavery but of sonship.

    JanH

  33. :shock: Whoa, I don’t even know where to begin on your bible study leader, John, but only to say that he is definitly a poster child for LS theology. I do, however, agree with him on one point: GET OUT and start your own bible study!

  34. Jan, a couple of comments. Regarding answers to my questions, he did not give my any.

    Regarding John 3:16, he did not say that he did not believe it, per se. What he said was that only believing was just an intellectual acknowledgement. I told him that knowledge that Jesus died for the sins of the world was intellectuual acknowledgement, and that accepting it for myself (that is – I am a whosoever) was saving faith. He then asked me if I thought that someone had to have a desire to have a relationship with Jesus to be saved. I told him that the only requirement was belief. The reason I used this term was that the church he attends (UMC) defines faith in an extremely broad fashion. I told him that John 3:16 did not say “whosever believith in Him and desireth a relationship” and that Ephesians 2:8 did not say “by Grace you are saved through faith and the desire for a relationship.”

    I am not saying that the desire for a relationship would preclude a saving faith. What I am saying is that saving faith does not have to include a desire for a relationship, other than to accept Jesus as Savior. The initial step of the relationship is to trust God at His word. He is not going to accept one into a relationship until one has trusted Him for the gift of eternal life. By adding any condition to belief, including one’s motive in trusting Jesus as Savior, one is introducing a subtle form of merit into the equation.

  35. Jan asked,

    John, I think you have a gift. Are you doing any other writing except commenting here, like a blog of your own? Because I really think you were called for such a time as this.

    I agree (remember my mentioning that to you, Jack, earlier this week?).

    As we’ve all noted, LS is so subtle and misleading, and it’s everywhere I look. Witnesses for the true, saving, simple gospel are desperately needed.

    John, your ability to analyze and challenge on the seemingly blurry points is, indeed, a gift of discernment which would be most helpful for those of us easily persuaded by a clever argument.

  36. Jan,

    You said:

    “I think you are right about that and that is very unfortunate because it co opts an otherwise valid concept. But then, they [Lordship Salvation teachers/advocates] do that a lot. I have noticed, unless it’s just me, that a lot of the time they use the same terminology we use but redefine it to mean what they want it to mean.”

    Jan, isn’t this exactly what every cult does with Christian terminology or Biblical terminology?

  37. Interesting..John- Was it not one LSer that stated that unless one had outward emotions (like crying) with their salvation experience that they may not be saved? That did not happen to me as a child. I am not saying that crying is not something that can occur, but it is not a prerequisite. A good guidepost is the Word- look at the certain men of Faith in Scripture. Some were very emotional and had strong desire yet some (like Jacob) were rough and struggled with desire. Peter had a strong desire to serve Christ, but yet denied Him. You are right, desire is not a prerequisite. I did this to my husband when he was struggling- I thought because his desire was not there he may not be saved. I am ashamed of this – judging his personal relationship with the Lord. All the while, the Lord was majorly working on him and refining him. Thank goodness Christ takes us with warts and all if we make that decision to put our belief and trust in Him.

  38. Wow, just a few hours at the Cardio office and I come back to a mailbox full of well thought out, enlightening and encouraging comments. Thankfully they stayed put in the computer and didn’t spill out all over the floor. Thanks to all of you.

    Bruce did post a new article as he mentioned above, “Lordship Salvation: Christian or Cult”, Here is the Link:
    http://www.expreacherman.com/2011/10/21/lordship-salvation-christian-or-cult/

    Jan and Pearl, about John’s writing and discernment: Hard to believe he trusted Christ as his Savior less than a year ago. John its amazing how you have grown, analyze error and speak God’s Word with boldness.
    Please, if you do get your own Blog, promise you won’t abandon us — we appreciate you so very much.. (Now was that too selfish of me to ask?)

    Faith,

    If the Lord didn’t take us, “warts and all” I would be a goner, lost forever. Thank the Lord for His Grace and you for your comment.

    All of you dear friends, thanks again for your testimonies, for such insightful analysis of error in light of Scripture, your truthful analysis of Scripture and the condemnation of those who preach the LS lie (and others) by perverting God’s Word.

    What an amazing bunch of friends!!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  39. Thanks, everyone, for the great discussion here. Whew! So many apostate churches out there! The heresy is like a virus out of control and science doesn’t have a vaccine to stop it! The only cure is walking with Jesus Christ daily, reading the Bible and fellowshipping with other believers.

    A co-worker has his own music CD. I listened to part of it today, and it’s the contemplative, love for Jesus kind of music, which I do not care for. One song was called, “Light me on fire.” The cult I was in had people, who said we had to be hot for God, not lukewarm, so they often prayed for the fire of God to burn in their hearts. From what I know, the Bible speaks of fire as being a form of judgment. I wouldn’t pray or sing for God to light me on fire! I prayed for my co-worker. He belongs to a charismatic Pentecostal church.

    Thanks for the encouragement, Pearl! Faith, good to see you, too, and thanks for your kindness, as well!

  40. Jan, you made a strong point in comparing these new churches to the world. It is creepy! You cannot expect people to become saved by conforming to the world to entertain the world. It’s vain philosophy and worldly deceit!

    Romans 12:2 (KJV) “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”

    When I was involved in the cult, it had all kinds of programs to attract the youth. The cult was also affiliated with the International House of Prayer cult, which is located in Kansas City. They target and attract youth, too. It makes me sick that these cult leaders are dangling tempting bait in front of teens and young people and they are going after it. Prey on the most vulnerable and deceive them. Shameful! Absolutely shameful!

  41. Marcella,

    I think that you are onto something important with your comment about “on fire” versus “lukewarm.” Of course we have discussed many times on this site about the prominent Lordship Faith teacher, Francis Chan. In his book Crazy Love, he makes a copious list of what are the traits of the “lukewarm.” Pretty much every Christian I know, including myself, fits onto his list somewhere. Then, in one heartless fell swoop, he chops them all down like matchsticks, assigning them all a place in hell! Even, the Apostle Paul, himself, would probably not pass the Chan salvation test. Only the obsessed, on-fire (as you put it) over-the-edge superchristians, according to Chan’s list, will make it. A family member of mine recently asked me, “Does Francis Chan and his book Crazy Love have anything to do with this recent radical Neo-Calvinist movement (he specifically mentioned “The Revolution Church”) within the Churches today?” I replied to him, “Yes, best-selling books like Crazy Love by Francis Chan and Radical, by David Platt, are the GASOLINE ON THE FIRE which flames up and fuels the movement.”

    So, Marcella, your comment about the “on-fire” trend is very apropos.

    Thanks, as always for your comments.

  42. Jack, I’m sure your appt. with the cardiologist went well. Afterall, you have a heart of gold!

    Bruce, Chan and others have invented pretty steep expectations pertaining to what they think qualifies a person to be a Christian. Praise God for the FREE gift of salvation, which cannot be earned, bought or acquired by anything we do. Which would you choose – a salvation that requires hard works and the uncertainty of whether or not you are saved, or a salvation that is a gift of God, offered to all who believe on the name of the Lord, JESUS CHRIST?

  43. Marcella, I’ll take the latter. Thank you very much.

  44. Marcella,

    You are too kind — the Cardio report was — not much worse than before.. not to worry.. Thanks for asking.
    You know gold and lead look the same under an echogram.

    In Christ eternally, Jack

  45. Bruce, don’t thank me! Thank God for sending His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, as Savior of the world! = )

    Jack, gold is more valuable than lead, worth over $1,000 per ounce.

  46. Woke up early this morning and saw more posts- wow! you guys are busy bloggers.: )

    Jack I am glad there was no drastic change in your cardio report (and that your heart is made of gold :) )- praying for you.

    Marcella, I am so sorry you had to experience this certain cult- IHOP.
    The SBC that I went to four years ago had infiltrators from this cult. And yes, I call this one a cult. They are very aggressive and have damaged many a family. Young people are very attracted to IHOP and Mike Bickle IS an apostate.

  47. Faith, it seems like some cults or cult like behavior infiltrates alot of venues and churches. I visited a Free Lutheran Church last summer, and some people from there went to IHOP. I was never directly involved with IHOP, but I did watch some of their seminars on the internet and attended a few at IHOP. I realized their “prophecy” and teaching from the Bible was not accurate, and something just didn’t feel right about that place. During a couple of seminars at IHOP, Mike Bickle led a small group information meeting about IHOP. I went to that and stepped closer to him. I discerned that something wasn’t right, and my thought was that he is a false prophet. I was so uncomfortable around him. Praise the Lord for discernment! I’ve read some reports on the internet about the abuse and terrible things people experienced while on staff at IHOP – required fasts, required prayer times at certain hours of the day and night, resulting in very little sleep, et al. The name of that game is manipulation, control and oppression. No one should ever have to experience that, and when it comes from a leader of an organization, group or church, it’s not good!

    The leader of the cult I was in seemed very kind and compassionate. He wasn’t controlling. There were strange things that went on at that place – meetings with false teachers and false prophets, small groups that discussed things that weren’t biblical, and other things. I was only there for three years, but it was long enough to get me involved in every form of false religion I know of – Mormonism, Calvinism, etc., as well as the Latter Rain movement. When I realized I had been involved in all of these things, it scared me so badly because I didn’t know how far I had strayed from the narrow road. I repented and wept alot over the course of several months as things I had been involved with came to the surface. Praise God for opening my eyes to the truth! At the time I left the cult, alot of other people had also left. One Sunday morning, the Pastor announced that someone asked him why so many people were leaving. He said, “They were never one of us,” then he went on to say that they are the only true church. Well, that sent off alarm bells for me, and I knew that I had to get out of there. I was glad so many people had left, but I don’t know where they went or if they got involved in other cults.

  48. I found myself growing hungry for fellowship with believer people with the intentions of simply sharing the free Grace Gospel with others. I found myself in my ancestors church with family names on the wall. I despise my ancestors religion which is a works based gospel and there is no way I can be in agreement with their doctrinal statement.they do however appear to be coming out of their legalistic tradition’s. to make this shorter they started small group ministry using Andy Stanley Guardrails study DVD’s . I listen to Andy Stanley and did a lot of digging on him but i just cant put my finger on it but my spirit does not witness with Andy Stanley it just seems like another twist to a sin focused lifestyle as in LS. what happened that there is so much focus on sin management vs who we are in Christ ? Well i posted here to test my spirit if these things are so and found this post after searching this blog for Andy Stanley. If you could post some follow up to Andy Stanley please do .
    Thank You
    Curtis

  49. Curtis,

    Welcome back..

    Apparently Andy Stanley goes the way of so many Baptists — into Lordship “salvation” with a big leap in his Catalyst Campaign.

    Here is another link to an article we did on Stanley and his program, Catalyst, with Warren, Chan, Driscoll, et al. That bad company alone should tell the tale.

    http://expreacherman.com/2011/10/06/beware-catalyst-conference-2011-chan-driscoll-et-al/

    You may use the search bar (right column) at ExP to find all references to “Andy Stanley” and/or his program, “Catalyst.”

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  50. Hi Curtis. I confess I am very wary of any mega churches and Stanley I believe is up to five. He was listed on Rick Warren ‘s top 100 pastors. Hangs out with Bill Hybels, emergent and contemplative. He speaks at his global leadership summit.

    Stanley also says, ” the foundation of our faith is not Scripture nor the infallibility of the Word”. He also said he doesn’t believe the Adam and Eve account because of Genesis but because Jesus brought it up.

    He further said, “The Scripture is ‘simply’ a collection of ancient documents that tells us that story. (I would refer him to Heb. 4:12 & 2 Tim. 3:16-17).

    He has spoken at the national prayer breakfast and in a sermon referred to Obama as pastor-in-chief. Lots more error with even his ambiguity on homosexuals not being disciplined if part of the church, but one time preached at a Christmas service with a board showing two men in blue at the left, a woman in Orange at the right. A little girl in a dress in the middle as an example of a model of forgiveness (as the subjects in question were present. The ex wife and the two male lovers and the daughter sitting in his pew. They were church leaders.)

  51. Thanks Holy and Jack for the links and input , you just confirmed the witness I was getting in my spirit while listening to Andy Stanley. . Not sure what I am going to do for fellowship I have been in almost complete isolation for passed 2 years . I am thankful that I was led and found expreacherman blog with like minded believers.
    Thank You
    Curtis

  52. After doing my homework and reading this blog and talking to a brother in Christ, my conscience started bothering me of promises I made to myself several months ago after all Jesus has brought me through the past several years.
    1. I will not attend an assembly of believers who’s doctrinal statement on salvation does not line up with free Grace.
    I can look the other way on a lot of doctrinal differences but I shall not back down from free Grace assurance of eternal Life.
    2. I will not sit under a pastor’s or lay person’s teaching or preaching that does not understand the word “repent” (change mind).
    I thought I could share eternal life with this assembly but the leaders purposely and thoughtfully put down a doctrinal statement that has no eternal security and the pastor confirmed in front of the whole congregation that repent = turn from sin.

    So at this point my time at this assembly, the short time I was there is done.

    Thank you for your time and input,
    Curtis

  53. Curtis, good for you! I won’t have anything to do with a church that is unclear on the gospel. I am particularly wary of the “back-door” Lordship “salvationists” – those who believe that good works are inevitable in the life of a believer.

  54. been chewing on the verse of scripture today , It just found me this morning.

    Pro 19:27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

  55. Curtis,

    GOOD one — which we should all obey!!!

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

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