False Repentance, Perseverance and Lordship “salvation”
These are the Big Three of theological errors in the modern day church. (there are more).
- False Repentance, telling folks you must turn from sin to be saved or stay saved.
- Perseverance, the Calvinist idea that if you don’t persevere until the end, you are not among the “chosen” to be saved. Perseverance-ites say the same thing but in a fancier and more exotic language. Sometime you may even see them speak in Romanist Latin. (Sola, sola)
- Lordship “salvation,” the theory that you must live righteously and do good works in order to be “saved” and if you don’t continue living righteously according to their rules, you obviously made a false profession of your faith and never were saved.
As we briefly state those obvious lies, we see that all three of these false doctrines are reading from the same pages of the same authors and all have merged into a “works” salvation message..
“Lordship salvation”, “Turn From Sin for salvation” and “Persevere for salvation” seem to be a convergence of “theologies” into one ecumenical mishmash. This uniting of false “theology” is simply a propagation of Galatianism, adding works to be saved, stay saved or persevere long enough to maybe be saved (never sure). None offer any real assurance of an eternity in Heaven with our Savior.
As the Apostle Paul wrote to the Believing Church in Galatia:
“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:6-9
Paul’s message is to those believers in the church in Galatia who formerly understood God’s Grace but, still saved, had turned to “another gospel” of works which we understand clearly when we read further in the book of Galatians. This “another gospel” was “of man” not God. While these are addressed as believers, we see today, many unbelievers tricked into believing the Lie of one of the Big Three or maybe all three.
There we have an explanation of how the “Lordship Salvation,” “Turn From Sin for salvation” and “Calvinist perseverance” teachers have veered (or run headlong) into a false message of works to be saved and/or stay saved.
Let’s discuss it…
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Hi Jack!
Good article as usual. I just did a search of the word persevere in the KJV – which yielded no results – then perseverance with only one:
Eph 6:18 “…Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;…”
Clearly, as it is used therein, it does not pertain to keeping myself secure in the Hands of God. In this case the words overcome/overcomers have been used.
The following are hard verses in regards to perseverance salvation (which is not adhered to by Calvinists alone, but Arminians as well). Would you mind explaining them to me? As you know, I’m not Calvinist, nor Arminian, but I am stumped by these:
Rev 3:4 “Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
Jack:
On target in each of the three subjects. It’s really all three that need each other’s error. Break even one link in the LS chain and the whole thing crumbles. LS men force into or extract from the Bible whatever they must to keep their theology in tact. I am writing to you from Beijing, China. Visiting family. Back in July to join you again here then.
Lou
Jack: Your phrase, “Lordship salvation”, “Turn From Sin for salvation” and “Persevere for salvation” seem to be a convergence of “theologies” into one ecumenical mishmash: Interesting comment Jack; I agree with Lou that the three concepts are inextricably linked. In Tom Cucuzza’s book (see Jack’s link above right), Tom points out the strong link between Calvinist Perseverance and Lordship Salvation teaching. In fact, he even caught John MacArthur as admitting in one of his writings that Lordship Salvation and Perseverance are one in the same! I might add one thing to Lou’s astute comment: T.U.L.I.P.: Take one letter out and the whole flower withers. Yet I have met those who claim to be 3-point or 3 1/2 point Calvinists. Interesting.
I’ve been reading this site for few weeks and enjoying it. I certainly believe God’s grace is free, and I’ve witnessed first hand how Lordship/Calvinistic salvation actually DIScourages people from getting saved. I have a question regarding your definition of repentance. I agree that repentance doesn’t mean “turning from sin” as you stated in this article. Would you agree with a definition repentance as “a change of mind away from the world and towards God”? By that I don’t mean changing your mind and not sinning anymore (ie. works), but simply a change of mind towards faith in God.
Also, I’ve seen the repentance illustrated as follows, and I was wondering if you would agree with this:
An object (usually a Bible) is used to represent God and placed on one side of the room. Another inanimate object (like a hymn book) is used to represent the world and is placed on the other side of the room. When we are born we have a sin nature, and thus are facing the world, and headed in the world’s (ie. hymn book’s) direction. When we repent we turn and face God’s (ie. the Bible) direction. So, the illustration is that repentance is a change of mind about who’s direction you are going to go.
You may have dealt with this somewhere on this site, but perhaps I haven’t come across that article or post yet
. Thank you.
Hi Jess, welcome to you. I’m so glad that you stopped by. Please come back and join us again soon.
Regarding the issue of repentance, Jack spoke to that pretty thoroughly a couple of months back. Here’s the link:
http://expreacherman.wordpress.com/2011/03/24/paul-washer-lordship-salvation-and-repentance/
I don’t see the term “repentance” as a wrong or unbiblical word. But the Lordship Faith camp has misappropriated it to mean, as I understand it, that a person must have a change of attitude and lifestyle before believing in Christ for salvation. In other words, one must give up sinning as a precursor to becoming saved (getting pre-saved before you are saved). You might say, one must get cleaned up before he is allowed to get saved. And, according to LS, he must maintain this stance after becoming saved or he evidences a lack of true salvation to begin with. But the Bible never places any such obstacles in the way of coming to God. Acts 16:31 says in part, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved” (the gospel message of 1 Corinthians 15:1-8, John 3:16-18, Ephesians 2:8-9).
Now, I think that you were on the right track when you alluded to a proper biblical use of the term “repentance.” Read, for instance, 2 Peter 3:9 in which God declares that he wants ALL people to become saved (not merely a select or elected few, as the Calvinists declare): “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” Yes, at the point of one’s believing in Christ Jesus for salvation, there is a simultaneous transformation that takes place, a changing of the mind or heart, if you will—”Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17).
I do see another valid Scriptural application for the term “repent.” In Revelation 2 and 3, Jesus calls the churches (bodies of believers) to repent in the sense of forsaking wayward deeds and to live proper pure lives of holiness befitting the spiritual heritage that they already possessed in Christ.
Bruce
I’ve been thinking a bit about repentance myself. The basic Greek meaning is a change of mind. However, for some reason the LS camp has interpreted change of mind to be somehow superficial and because the word “mind” is used have assumed it to be something merely intellectual, like the matter has nothing to do with you. They oppose it on that ground, which, as usual, is a straw man. There is nothing superficial about the change of mind that is repentance, at least, not that I have experienced. I think the best way that I have come up with to explain it is repentance means to get on God’s page about it or coming into agreement with Him on it, in this case “it” is sin. It is effectively to discard one testimony about sin, which is whatever testimony you have accepted that is not in full agreement with God’s (sin isn’t really that bad, etc.) and come into agreement with Him: to change your way of thinking about sin to be in agreement with His thinking about it: it is wrong and deserves judgment. More pointedly my sin is wrong and deserves judgment, or even better, I am wrong and deserve judgment.
I often find it frustrating to listen to LS preachers try to talk about repentance, especially when they denigrate the change of mind definition. I just don’t understand how they think something as genuinely superficial as behavior modification can be sustained without the indispensable change of mind that must under lie that. Then they use the kind of illustration Jess mentioned with the physical turning in the opposite direction and all I can ever think when I see that is, what in the world does that mean???
I think getting on God’s page about sin is, at least for me, the best way of understanding what repentance really is. Fundamentally, it is a change of mind and there is nothing superficial about it.
JanH
Bruce and JanH,
Thank you both for the answers. I agree, there is nothing superficial about a change of mind. I also like the analogy of getting on the same page as God about our sin. Without a proper understanding of sin salvation is impossible, and with a proper understanding of sin comes repentance. It’s sad that LS has twisted the idea of repentance into works, because that often puts people off of using an otherwise completely biblical term. It also necessitates us defining over and over again what we actually mean by repentance.
I’m a firm believer in presenting salvation as faith in Christ (NO works), but also as repentance of sin (NO works). I believe this is biblical. One of my favourite verses about this is Mark 1:15 where Jesus said “And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” Repentance and faith (belief) are inseparable. To have faith in God is to repent (change your mind) about sin. To have faith in God is NOT to stop sinning. That is not what the Bible means when it talks about repentance.
Bruce: You mentioned the verse in revelation about believers repenting. That made me think of Job 42:6 when Job said after seeing God in the whirlwind “Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Repentance for salvation is a change of mind. Repentance AFTER salvation is to determine to put sin out of our lives. This is ONLY possible if we already are saved! One cannot put sin out of their lives if they don’t have the Holy Spirit to help them (ie. are saved). It’s also life long as the Scriptures speak much about our flesh (the old nature) that is still present with us.
Thank you for this site, and I look forward to reading further discussions.
God Bless
Hi Pearl,
You pose a good question on those verses, Revelation 3:4-5.. and you will find many honest “theologians” who give opinions.. I don’t consider myself a “theologian” so I will tell you what I derive from those two verses.
First, we know these have nothing to do with retaining or losing salvation because that fact is sealed for all eternity through our decision to trust Jesus Christ as Savior. Therefore we must always be sure we do not let someone else strain to convince us otherwise by making verses fit their preconceived theology. “Perseverance” is one of those teachings that strain.
These verses speak of the earthly church at Sardis.. where some were living carnal lives (garments defiled) inconsistent with being a believer and others who are living obedient lives. The phrase “Walk with Me..” is fellowship on earth.. “worthy” is the reward for service.
They “..that overcometh” are believers in Christ (1 John 5:4 and other verses)
“I will not blot out his name…” is reassurance that believers are secure in Christ’s (The Lamb’s) book of Life, and He will confess us (our Advocate, 1 John 2:1) before The Father.
So we see it is definitely not advocating “perseverance” for salvation, because Scripture confirms over and over that we are secure in Jesus Christ for all eternity when we trust Christ alone as our Savior.
I pray this helps — if not, please ask.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
I’m satisfied with the answer, but knowing my Arminian friend…
Thanks again, Jack.
Jess,
Glad you dropped in and happy that Bruce and JanH were helpful on your specific question. We really have a great bunch of folks here and glad you decided to join us.
Too often the word Repent is used by well meaning folks without an explanation.. Naturally, folks think in terms of the English dictionary.. “to turn from sin.” True repentance is not about sin but about the subject at hand.
Simply stated, repent means a change of mind — and does not mean a turn or change of action. A change of action MAY result or follow but that is the RESULT of repentance, not repentance itself. Folks who misunderstand will say “It means a change of mind that DOES affirmatively lead to a change of action/direction etc.” Not true. That is a misreading of the word’s meaning.
Someone might say “Repent and believe on Jesus Christ.” One could change his mind about the person of Jesus Christ, believing He is the Savior (that is history).. But in order to be saved, he must believe Jesus is HIS Savior, by deciding to put his faith in and relying solely upon the Person and work of The Savior, Jesus Christ. (That is Salvation).
Your illustration of the Bible and a book in a room struck me.. Repentance does not mean a turn from one to the another. Actually the book which you might favor could be side by side with the Bible.. and you make a mental decision for the Bible rather than the book. What you do or what actions you take about that decision afterwards is the result of that change of mind.
Of course one could change his mind again deciding on the book instead..
But we must realize that to change one’s mind (repent) about Jesus Christ and then deciding to trust Him as your Savior is an eternal decision, irreversibly sealed with God’s Holy Spirit. That is the wonder and beauty of God’s Eternal life — it IS Eternal.
We look forward to your visits and comments.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
But we must realize that to change one’s mind (repent) about Jesus Christ and then deciding to trust Him as your Savior is an eternal decision, irreversibly sealed with God’s Holy Spirit. That is the wonder and beauty of God’s Eternal life — it IS Eternal.
That is an excellent point, Jack.
JanH
Your illustration of the Bible and a book in a room struck me.. Repentance does not mean a turn from one to the another. Actually the book which you might favor could be side by side with the Bible.. and you make a mental decision for the Bible rather than the book. What you do or what actions you take about that decision afterwards is the result of that change of mind.
This is another excellent point.
JanH
JanH,
It is a shame that legalists, LS folks, etc have so perverted that wonderful word that it is almost impossible to use it without a long and detailed explanation.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Thanks Bruce..
Interesting note you make on the removal of one TULIP petal.. crash goes the theory.. Yet I too have spoken to and read folks who claim they are only 3 point or two point Calvinists.. How can it be???
Great comments.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Great comments all!
Sorry I’m usually so late in joining the conversation. I live on the West Coast and by the time I get home from work and finish dinner, everyone else is pretty much in bed, I guess.
Blessings on all the participants!
Bruce
Hi all,
I’m enjoying the discussion.
I apologize if this is not the correct location to ask a question.
I have a question about the word bondservant or slave of Jesus Christ. I was at church Sunday and our preacher kept pressing the fact that after we are saved, we are slaves or bondservants for Christ and we don’t have a will onced saved because we are now bought with a price. He used Philippians 1:1 as his main text. He mentioned “if we are not serving, you may be saved, but in a backsliding state”. He also mentioned that saved people “ought to be” serving Jesus which to me seems borderline LS, but not LS because he uses “ought to be” and says we can be saved but are backsliden if not serving.
Can someone point me in the right direction on what slaves, bondservants, servants of Jesus Christ means?
I am a bit confused on this issue.
–Brent
Brent, thanks for the question..
Please read Bruce’s review of John MacArthur’s terrible book, “Slave.” No doubt it will answer your question. We can see by your question how much damage a man like MacArthur can do to pastors and churches.
See:
https://www.expreacherman.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/john-macarthurs-new-apostate-book/
Bruce’s article is very comprehensive and should answer your question.. We will appreciate your discussion of the “slave” question.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Brent, just one quick note:
You quoted your Pastor: ” as bondservants for Christ and we don’t have a will once saved because we are now bought with a price.”
Your Pastor contradicts himself in that he says we have no will as believers and yet we have the will to “backslide.”
Believers who wish to serve the Lord are voluntary bondservants.. now FREE but willing to stay and serve. Illustration: The slave Onesimus in the very short book of Philemon is a good example.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Hi Brent, thanks for joining us.
Consider these thoughts that I posted under my Amazon 2-star review. It describes the difference between sons and slaves.
Have you considered the parable of the lost son (Luke 15:17-24)? The wayward son is unmistakeably a portrait of a true believer who has strayed for a time from God (portrayed by the father in the parable) yet has come back. He did not lose his salvation because John 10:27-30 promises that God will never allow that to happen to a true believer (a son). He never ceased to be a son; he was never demoted to a lesser position of slave. Listen to the parable: “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’ So he got up and went to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.” Note that the father made a clear distinction between the servants (or slaves) and the son. It was the son, not the servants who received all the blessings of restoration to his position in the family.
Bruce
I’m sure y’all have already mentioned it, but all these things, repentance, perseverance & Lordship, which really should be termed “commitment” salvation, all focus on US rather than the Savior. Faith sees its object, not itself. That’s why Jesus over & over said believe in ME, not your repentance, perseverance, etc. I remember a partial quote by a Calvinist of yesteryear, Horatius Bonar, who had a great insight into this when he said something like we should never be satisfied with our repentance, or even our faith, but only our Savior! All I can say to that is AMEN! Y’all are such a blessing to me!
Hi David, always good to hear from you. Yes, it is too bad that a good biblical word, “repentance,” has been hijacked by LS and misapplied to take on a meaning never intended in Scripture.
Tagging onto what you said I’ll give a brief quotation from Dr. Fred Lybrand on the Free Grace Alliance blog site (April 19, 2011) on the subject of repentance; in it he describes a false repentance:
“People can repent with great conviction and fervor, but it means nothing without faith alone in Christ alone. Otherwise, what could Hebrews 6:1 possibly mean when it denigrates “repentance from dead works?”
Try it this way: Just because you repent, why does that mean you have believed? If you can repent without belief, then you can’t be sure that you have believed just because you have repented. This really is the crux (pardon the allusion) of the problem! People are actually putting their faith in their repentance (so called), instead of in the Savior. The reason they do that is that they have wrongly co-mingled faith and repentance. Far better to keep the ideas separate just as the words are different.”
David, your comment nailed it! This is exactly right.
Here are a few more thoughts on repentance gleaned from the book “So Great Salvation,” by Charles Ryrie, Chicago: Moody, 1989, 1997, pp. 83-90:
Three types of repentance:
1. Nonsaving repentance: this involves a change of mind but it has nothing to do with salvation. It can involve resolutions to avoid wrongful or sinful practices. It may or may not result in positive changes in one’s life, yet it has nothing to do with salvation. It can involve remorse as in the case of Judas’
returning the thirty pieces of silver, yet this action did not save Judas.
2. Saving repentance (quoting Ryrie, p. 85): “there is a repentance that is unto eternal salvation. What kind of repentance saves? Not a sorrow for sins or even a sorrow that results in a cleaning up of one’s life. People who reform have repented; that is, they have changed their minds about their past lives, but that kind of repentance, albeit genuine, does not of itself save them. The only kind of repentance that saves is a change of mind about Jesus Christ. . . . The sense of sin and sorrow because of sin may stir up a person’s mind or conscience so that he or she realizes the need for a Savior, but if there is no change of mind about Jesus Christ there will be no salvation.” Ryrie also observes (p. 88) that the gospel of John does not even once use the word repent but instead uses the words “believe” or “faith” climaxing in John 20:31, “But these [things] are written so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
3. A third type of repentance involves a change of mind within the experience of Christian living. This is not a call to salvation. Paul’s admonitions to those he calls his brothers, the Corinthian church (1 and 2 Corinthians) apply here. The calls to the seven churches of Revelation 2 and 3 fit into this category. Jesus’ gracious call to them was not for salvation; rather it was a call to repent in the sense of forsaking unrighteous living, sinful lifestyles, lukewarmness of spirit, and returning to a Christian lifestyle befitting their spritual heritage in Christ.
Ryrie’s concluding “main point” (pp. 89-90): “Is repentance a condition for receiving eternal life? Yes, if it is a repentance or changing one’s mind about Jesus Christ. No, if it means to be sorry for sin or even to resolve to turn from sin, for these things WILL NOT SAVE. Is repentance of sin a precondition to faith? No, though a sense of sin and the desire to turn from it may be used by the Spirit to direct someone to the Savior and His salvation. Repentance may prepare the way for faith, but it is faith that saves, not repentance (unless repentance is understood as a synonymn for faith or changing one’s mind about Christ).
Bruce, thanks.. A couple of weeks ago I gave a copy of So Great Salvation (Ryrie) to one of my Docs to whom I have been witnessing. He is a new believer who has been swept into Calvinism by family and friends.
Ryrie’s book is a good one on proper Biblical doctrine.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Just found your site today – I just don’t see the difference between saying
A) “you need to repent” to be saved (meaning – give your life to God)
B) and saying “you need to live a certain life style to be saved?
My pastor told me he believed the difference was in “Attitude” i.e., He felt he was not teaching a works salvation because you did not have to perform any particluar act but you did need to be willing to live for God?
Am I being illogical? It sounds like salvation by works to me?
Thanks for your thoughts.
Ray.
Ray,
Thanks for finding us. You are a welcome visitor.
Congratulations for your discernment. Yes I agree, what your Pastor said sounds inaccurate and certainly bordering on Lordship Salvation. It is not the simple Gospel of Salvation in Jesus Christ alone.. Both A) and B) above do not reflect a teaching of Free Grace.
Stick around, read your Bible and compare with articles in this Blog and you will understand why what you heard is not true and you’ll be able to defend your understanding of the Bible.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
I’m new here, so if this has already been addressed sorry. Can anyone here explain how repented is used in the verses below? What do you think about the definition an inward resolve to turn from sin?
Here are the verses:
Rev. 9:20 And the rest of mankind, who were not killed with these plagues, repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood; which can neither see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev. 9:21 and they repented not of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Rev. 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat: and they blasphemed the name of God who hath the power over these plagues; and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev. 16:11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they repented not of their works.
Rev. 9:20 The people refusing to repent are those not killed by the plagues. They are refusing to repent from idolatry (the work of their hands). This is, in effect, the rejection of Jesus as Lord. Hence, these men would not repent unto saving faith.
Rev. 9:21 The same people referred to in verse 20, having rejected Christ, also refuse to repent from evil deeds.
It appears that these men fail to accept Christ. However, the consequence of their lack of repentence is not, in either case, clearly set forth in the passage. The only immediate consequence that can be gleaned from the context is God’s temporal judgement in continuuing the plagues.
Rev. 16:9 The subjects who refuse to repent are described as men who have the mark of the beast, men who had shed the blood of saints, and men who had blasphemed God. They are refusing to give God glory, suggesting that God is the object about whom they are refusing to repent. It appears that the specific sin of which they refuse to repent is to believe in in God and honor the Son.
This passage does not teach or suggest that one must “repent of his sins” to be eternally saved. The consequence of failing to repent in this section is temporal wrath.
Stone, if you are asking whether the internal resolve to turn from sin is a requirement for salvation, I believe the answer is no. If turning from sins is a work, then the inward resolve to turn from sin would be an IOU for a work – that is, the promise of future works.
Stone,
Good questions and John gave some good answers.
Just as a quick matter of doctrine. In virtually every case in the NT, the word “Repent” and its derivatives are translated from the Greek word, “metanoeo” meaning “a change of mind” or “to think differently.” In salvation, a change of mind to the belief that Jesus IS the only Savior and trusting Him.
In Rev. 16:11 “and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they repented not of their works.”
All “religions,” blasphemers, etc believe their works will give them eternal life or satisfaction before their gods — thus in Rev 16:11 they refused to change their minds of their works they were depending on.
You may take almost every NT verse that contains “repent” (depending on the syntax) and substitute “change of mind” and it will be complete and accurate Bible doctrine.. Note: It never means turning from sins, change of life, etc as so many churches and preachers teach today.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Jack, I found this 1998 journal article online. Here’s the last sentence proir to the conclusion:
“Yet if repentance is more than a “change of mind” but less than an observable turning from sins, what is it? We suggest this meaning: an internal resolve to turn from one’s sins. We think this meaning will make good sense in every NT use.”
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1998i/Anderson.html
John, thanks for the input. I found this online:
Repentance: The Most Misunderstood Word in the Bible by G. Michael Cocoris.
“The author of the book of Revelation certainly was not saying people had to turn from their sin in order to be saved, because if that is what he meant he would be repudiating everything he said in the Gospel of John and what he said at the end of this book. He concluded this volume with these words, “And the Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ And let him who hears say, ‘Come!’ And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely” (Rev 22:17). The Greek word translated “freely” means, “without cost.” John would not say that people had to do something in order to be saved and in the same book say that it is without cost. He would say, however, that people had to change their minds from believing in idols and the sins of idol worship to trusting Jesus Christ.”
Stone,
I disagree with the Anderson article at the Grace Evangelical Society.. as I disagree with so much that they stand for now (or don’t stand for).
Anderson is straining to make repentance fit a preconceived notion to “make it fit” his statement, “We suggest this meaning: an internal resolve to turn from one’s sins. We think this meaning will make good sense in every NT use.” fits John’s IOU explanation. Repent simply does not mean to turn from sin.
Cocoris’ statement, “change their minds from believing in idols and the sins of idol worship to trusting Jesus Christ.” is close — but believing in Christ comes and replaces the belief in idols. He implies we must, in effect, do the work of abandoning one to gain the other. Grace says eternal life/salvation is there and available, just take the Gift, no charge. But, maybe I am nit-picking and quibbling.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Jack, I like being able to examine doctrine together. Here’s Cocoris’ definition:
“In the New Testament, the Greek words “repent” and “repentance” mean, “to change one’s mind.” The object of what people are changing their minds about is determined by the context. The message of repentance is preached to unbelievers and believers.”
I’m cautious with GES given the Crossless “gospel” controversy.
I don’t think it is quibbling, It seems like one must, at some point, come to faith in Christ – alone. Belief in Christ does imply replacement of belief in idols, or anything else,
I would recommend “The Doctrine of Repentance in Relationship to Salvation” by Dr. Lewis S. Chafer
http://duluthbible.org/widgets/download.aspx?file=%2ffiles%2fResources%2fGrace_Family_Journal%2fGFJ_1999_PDF%2fGFJ_1999_06_NovDec%2fGFJ_1999_06_Repentance_00_Chafer.pdf
Hi Stone,
Thanks for the link and the statements about repentance. John and Jack gave some well thought out responses. I don’t need to add to their comments.
Regarding quotations from GES, yes, we are cautious about posting anything from their site. Some of their older articles might be acceptable.
To all regular viewers:
Disregard link back to the same post. Link made in error.
hi i have been reading your posts on repentance. I wondered if anyone
knew what paul was saying in acts 26 when it says repent turn to god
and bring fruit worthy of repentance. Charlie bing mentioned it in his
article on repentance as a inner change from sin which will produce an
outer change (fruit) But then that would still be an i.o.u. In other articles
he says the opposite that grace is free without any promises to turn from sin
or making an commitment. I know we certainly should turn from sin after we
are saved out of thankfulness for gods free gift of salvation, but not to earn
salvation. Does anyone know what paul was talking about in acts 26?
Jewel,
We sure appreciate you dropping by and commenting.
If you have studied our posts on repentance, you will understand that the word repent is “metanoeo” meaning to think differently or change one’s mind. It certainly applies here where Paul speaks in Acts 26:20:
“But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.”
There are three things they should do:
1) should Repent – change their minds.
2) should then Turn their minds to God. (infers believe in Jesus Christ)
3) should now do works suitable (meet) for that change of mind.
I have not read Bing’s article — but any future promise or IOU to do good works to secure salvation is incorrect teaching. Knowing of Charlie Bing and his Free Grace theology, I cannot believe that is what he believes.
We know that adding anything to the finished work of Jesus Christ for salvation is incorrect teaching.
We should do good works after trusting Christ as our Savior, not to be saved but because we are saved. Ephesians 2:10
I pray this helps. Maybe others will add to the thought.. or followup with a question if you wish.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Hi Jewel,
Thank you for joining us today and for your comments. You are always welcome.
Regarding Charlie Bing’s comments, I read his “GraceNotes # 22″ article on repentance and I did not see him make the statement “an inner change from sin which will produce an outer change (fruit).” He does, however, indicate that, as a general rule, a change of heart/mind will usually result in a change in conduct, although it does not necessitate such a change. Charlie says on page 2 of his article, “Linguistically, a change of heart [metanoia] does not demand a change in conduct, though that is what is normally expected from an inner change. The Bible distinguishes between the inner change of repentance and the outer conduct it motivates.” His final conclusion statement of his article is salient, “In general, a good translation of metanoia is to have a change of heart. But since this is awkward, we are probably left with the word repentance. Its exact meaning must be clarified by context. In any case, as an inner change, repentance is in no way a work that merits salvation. Inner repentance can always be distinguished from its outward acts, though one is the cause of the other. In preaching the gospel, believe is certainly the more normative, predominate, and specific word to use.”
To view Charlie Bing’s full article, see:
http://www.gracelife.org/resources/gracenotes/gracenotes22.pdf
Bruce
Below is the salient excerpt from Bing’s article:
“In relation to eternal salvation, repentance is not a second step or condition. Salvation is always through faith alone in Christ alone. But sometimes there appears to be an overlap between faith and repentance (cf. Mark 1:15; Luke 5:32; 24:47; Acts 11:18; 17:30, 34; 2 Peter 3:9). Since faith is being persuaded that something is true, when one is persuaded (believes), there is a change of mind and heart. Repentance is the more general concept, for a person can change his or her heart about something, even God or sin, but not be saved. When one believes the gospel, he is convinced of something he was not formerly convinced of, thus he has had a change of mind or heart about who Jesus is and what He has promised about eternal life, and his own condition relative to that (cf. Acts20:21). Faith involves repentance, but repentance does not always involve faith.”
Regarding Acts 26:20, the context in verses 21-23 is helpful:
21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
From Clear Gospel Campaign:
“In verses 22 and 23, Paul notes that the only thing he proclaimed was that Christ should suffer and should rise from the dead and show light unto the people, and unto the Gentiles. Once again, saving repentance is equivalent to believing the gospel message.”
Jewel, my personal testimony is that in order to come to faith in Christ, I had to repent. The thing I had to repent from was thinking that God required me to turn from my sins and commit my life to Him in order to be saved.
In other words, prior to being saved, I had inserted myself into the equation – thus rejecting salvation God’s way. I had viewed salvation as faith in Christ plus me “doing my part”. The trouble was, I could never “do my part” very well, particularly since I still had not trusted in Christ – alone.
Late last year, I realized that eternal life was God’s gift, and not part of a trade,
I meant to end the previous post with a period, not a comma. My point was that to accept Christ necessarily involves turning from any other confidence.
I read charlie bings thesis on lordship and the part on repentance.
He said that repent means a change of heart and moral attitude .
It’s an inner change that as a sinner can do . It’s not an action so does not see it as a work but a change on the inner which should show in actions . A sinner when realizing he is a sinner separated from god through
sin and recognizes his need for forgiveness which is free by beleving on jesus as saviour alone, he will have a change of heart about sin which usually results in a change of action. Also he said that when we trust jesus as saviour we automatically are changing our heart about sin. Thank you for your imput sorry to mention this again but it confuses me. I heard that a sinner can trust god for salvation and live how he wants and still go
to heaven as salvation is a free gift with no conditions. Not sure that is a true statement. Personally I received jesus as saviour at a young age . Not receiving much teaching as my parents were catholics I didn’t hear the gospel again for four years later. I started to grow at that age through
good bible studies. But came across this repentance issue and it caused me untold doubt. I felt I had to prove i had repented and when I heard that repenting wasn’t necessary for salvation just trust in jesus it set me free. Not to sin but to grow.
..
Jewel, you said:
“I heard that a sinner can trust god for salvation and live how he wants and still go to heaven as salvation is a free gift with no conditions. Not sure that is a true statement.”
Jewel, in order to have eternal life, someone needs to know that :
1. All people are lost, separated from God, due to sin, and in need of God’s salvation.
2. The penalty of sin is death (eternal separation from God)
3. One must be perfect to go to Heaven
4. Man can do nothing to obtain the perfection necessary to satisfy God.
5. God provided Jesus Christ as the sin bearer for man, in order that man might be reconciled to Him. Jesus Christ is the Eternal God who became a man, who died for the sins of mankind and who was raised from the dead.
5. Salvation is the gift of God, available to anyone who accepts God’s gift of salvation (eternal life) through belief in Jesus Christ alone as his personal Savior.
There are no conditions, other than belief. Please see John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8, among many other verses that make this explicitly clear!
Morning all,
I wanted to address Jewel’s question,
This is where I hold the firm conviction, Jewel, that only half the gospel is presented about 99% of the time. First, Romans 6 begins with this rhetorical question,
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” Romans 6:1-4
All throughout the gospels, Jesus tells us that without Him we can do nothing. We cannot save ourselves, nor can we live the Christian life (as a few preachers I’ve read have rightly noted, it is a sheer impossibility). The gospel has a twofold purpose: to reconcile us to God the Father through Jesus’ shed blood on the cross and to impart to us His Spirit wherein we continue on in faith by yielding our bodies to Him that His Life may be expressed through us.
The latter part is where all kinds of false teaching creeps in and heeps upon the redeemed soul needless guilt and self-examiniation. The best way I can advise one as to how to bear fruit (remember, HE is the vine, we are the branches – without Him we can do nothing) is to simply grow in grace and truth, attributes of Jesus Christ Himself. In other words, get to know Him! And by learning more about Him, one can’t help but to love Him. I am convinced that by drawing near to Him, He takes care of the rest, just as Moses spent much time on the mountain, he came down with a glow in his face, the reflected beauty of the Lord.
So what ought you read to get to know Jesus? The King James Bible. It is all about Him. Ask the Lord to show you and teach you more about Himself. He has given you all you need to grow in grace and truth and knowledge.
Pearl,
Thanks so much!! That is great advice for all of us.
Jewel,
Every believer should walk in newness of life bearing much fruit for our Savior. Christ Himself said:
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples[learners, pupils or followers]. John 15:8
Bearing fruit, being a Disciple to other believers, and service for our Savior is all voluntary — not a requirement before, during or after believing in Jesus for eternal life.. but is a wonderful and exciting privilege of being a Child of God by faith. This precious Bible doctrine of serving our Savior is terribly twisted by those who teach and advocate a false repentance and Lordship “salvation” message.
We Believers in Jesus Christ are complete in Him.
And as Pearl wrote, “He [The Lord] has given you all you need to grow in grace and truth and knowledge.”
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
All great comments. I think that, in presenting the Gospel to unbelievers, the focus needs to be on presenting the plan of salvation from the penalty of sin by the acceptance of God’s Grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Dr. Lewis S. Chafer, in his article entitiled “Preaching the Gospel in its Accuracy” had this to say:
“The practice of confusing the Gospel with the manner of life a person should live after he is saved, is calculated not only to distract the attention of the unsaved from the Gospel, but to defeat the very power and effect of it. I cannot too stongly urge that God is not calling on the unsaved to adopt a manner of life, but He is offering them His gift, which is eternal life. Nor should the truth be overlooked that the unsaved have no spiritual capacity by which they can face the problems of a Christian’s daily life. Those problems belong to a Spirit-guided mind and demand for their solution the presence of those new desires, which come with regeneration”
Hi John.
My emphasis was that being sealed by the Holy Spirit is not soley for securing the believer, but to convey to the the believer that the Holy Spirit is now the Source of the Christian life. This is not in additionto the gospel, but the “rest” of it.
No mention of expectations, no demands given: only the exhortation for the newborn babe to feast on the milk of the Word, wherein the Lord will take care of His own.
I agree with you that I would not attempt to communicate this to an unbeliever, but should I be honored enough to effectively share the gospel and witness a new birth, I would not neglect to leave this important truth unsaid.
I hope this clears up any confusion.
Thanks Pearl! I understand and agree with your points regarding the power of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, and with the exhortation for new believers to feast on the milk of the Word.
And, I have prayed that you will be effective in sharing the Gospel.
John
Amen.
Thank you, John.
Just a point,
Please, all of us pray for all of us — to be bold with the Gospel, being complete and accurate as we share it, whether here or in person.
Likewise that the Holy Spirit will bring appropriate Scripture to mind. (The Lord knows I need His prompting)!
We sure do appreciate you guys…
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
The word repentance is kind of tricky, since it has taken on so many meanings since it first meant a changing of mind or turning. Just turning to the Lord to be saved is repentance by that definition, but is sure isn’t by the definition of so many over the millenia. And turning to the Lord IS turning from sin, if we are turning to Him as He is, otherwise we might be turning to Molech or Diana instead. So an acknowledgement that we are sinners and that He is Holy that is inherent in turning to Him as He is. The problem comes in when they try to say that there is a certain level of recognition of your sin, or that there is a certain level of renouncing sin, or of even gaining victory over sin, that is required to even become saved. If we could do all that for ourselves, we wouldn’t need to be saved!
I sure thought of you all here when I had to answer a friend when she posted this guy’s “preaching” on Repentance.
HE SAID: (going to see if I can format)
DO WE EVERY HEAR THE WORD REPENT ANYMORE?
RE: Acts17:30 he said, “This is God’s direct clear command to all people ,’Now is the time to repent.’”
Then he defines REPENT.
>>>> People must face the ugliness of their sins ,
>>>> turn from their sins
>>>> run to the Cross .
HE THEN DEFINES WHAT IS NECESSARY TO BE SAVED.
>>>Repentance with godly sorrow for your sins against God is the 1st essential step toward the Lord in order to be saved.
>>>There is no true salvation without repentance .
>>>> You must be honest
>>>> humble yourself before God
>>>> depart from iniquity
>>>> and surrender to the Risen Savior.
HIS DEFINITION FOR CONFESSION:
>>> To acknowledge our sin to God means that we are ready to ABANDON our sin and turn to God for forgiveness .
>>>> To confess our sins is not a ‘half-hearted’ confession .
>>>> No, it is a confession based on a deep conviction of our sins (by the Holy Spirit he says)
>>>> be fully prepared to do whatever it takes to rid ourselves of them by the enabling grace of God !
HERE HE DETERMINES WHO IS NOT SAVED.
Careless sinners who are not under any conviction of sin, who come to an altar and mouth a sinners prayer are not converted and still are careless sinners.The must be awakened sinners! They must be ‘convicted sinners’ who realize they are under the wrath of God but in His love He sent Christ to die on the Cross so they could be saved from sin.
HE SAYS>>>>No repentance equals no true conversion!
HIS PROOF TEXTS…
1.Acts 3:19
2.Acts 20:21
3.2nd Tim .2:19′
4.Mark1:15
5.Mark 2:17
6.Luke 15:10
7.2nd Cor.7:10
I answered, but I need prayer as I know you all do in this battle, it is the enemy always trying to distort the truth of the gospel, to corrupt the simplicity that is in Christ, to accuse the brethren day and night… Thankful for you all…
1 and 2 do not support that view. 3 is not about conversion. 4, 5, 6 Does not support the view. Actually the free grace definition of repentance fits with 1 2 4 5 and 6. The idea is to think after or think again (change your mind). 7 is not about conversion. Most of your debate will center around 7. The key is the context and comparing scripture with scripture. Besides – how can a sinner have Godly sorrow anyway? In my experience, those seeing this as a salvation verse or salvation principle will not easily see their error. It will take much prayer.
Jim F
Holly,
The preacher obviously will never change his false messages.
No one can be saved with that message. Does your friend claim she is saved, yet she believes that teaching? Does she add up to his false requirements?
I think your friend should understand the simple “change one’s mind” definition of repentance and that will destroy that “pastor’s” fake arguments.
(Where do you find these folks?)
Praying for right now,.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Holly, I have prayed for you in your discussions with your friend. I know I have posted these a couple of times before, but following are some excerpts from one of my favorite Tom Cucuzza sermons:
Minutes 2:03-3:33
“You notice it says ‘if our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost.’ And you notice how they’re blind. Satan is blinding them. Now, how does Satan blind people to the truth of the Gospel? Can I tell you this? Unfortunately, friends, he does it through the pulpits of America and through the Word.
Because, for generations, for generations – really for all of history – most people have been saying that you go to Heaven through religion of one kind or another. You go to Heaven through rituals. You go to Heaven through ordinances, or sacraments, or good works of one kind or another. And what that does – see people automatically want to believe the authority and so what that does is it leads people astray, into something that’s false and they believe that.
And then, when someone comes along with the true Gospel of Grace, that says your sins have been bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ, once and for all, and that all you can do to be saved is to put your faith in Him, trust in Him as your Savior, they say this: ‘I can’t believe that. That’s too easy. That’s easy believism. That’s cheap grace.’ And all these kind of lines that they come up with. ‘You can’t tell me it’s a gift. You can’t tell me that you can put your faith in Christ as your Savior and, no matter what, you’re going to Heaven. You can’t tell me that’.
Why would a person say that? I’ll tell you why, because they have been blinded by Satan.
Minutes 21:38-23:34
This is why the Lord rejects any attempt at us earning our salvation through good works or reformation. This is why you hear these people say: ‘well, what Christ did is important, but you have to be willing to turn from all your sins.’ Okay. ‘Write that in the contract!’ Okay. ‘You got to put that in there – these are the things you’re agreeing to in your purchase agreement here.’
No dear friend! Paid in full. ‘Well Christ it is partner – you gotta be sorry. You gotta promise to change. You gotta promise this, you gotta promise that. You gotta get baptized. Well Christ it is partner. It’s a free gift, but if you don’t walk forward, you can’t be saved. Cause, cause you know, Billy Graham used to say ‘everybody Jesus called He called publically’.’
Well, you haven’t read your Bible lately. Sorry Mr. Graham. Nicodemus came to Jesus by night. The woman at the well – it was one-on-one with the woman at the well. No-one came till later. Those were personal, one-on-one things.
Let’s believe God. Okay. Listen, you don’t have to walk forward to be saved, you don’t have to raise your hand to be saved, you don’t have to do anything but believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you’ll be saved. That’s the condition. The sole condition- it’s simply to believe.
Again, this is why the Lord rejects any attempt at us earning our salvation through good works or reformation.
Salvation is not a bi-lateral contract. That’s why this so called ‘Lordship salvation’ being preached today by people like Piper, and MacArthur, and Sproul, and all these other people – that’s why it is a damning, false message. Because it is adding to the condition of salvation – which is Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It’s the only way you’re saved. It’s not a bi-lateral contract. It’s unilateral! It’s God saying: ‘I promise you this’.”
http://northlandchurch.com/2011/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/VOA-MP3-Message0266-Hebrews20.mp3
My friend thanked me, and deleted the post. I thank you all for your prayers, it was a precious moment for me. Another one thanked me for the clarity, and so I know people are praying.
Jack – I find them on the mission field
lol!
My old friends at the (FEEL FREE TO DELETE)>(p a t h o f t r u t h) “discernment ministries” sent me something on Francis Chan yesterday. I didn’t know I was on their “list”…
They were the ones right after my husband died, I was doing my “proving” on Francis Chan, and found their site. They were using the “message” so I didn’t read further, but did shoot them a short note and asked why.
I got a condescending note back with two people on the email, and when I responded back, I added several trusted friends. Thankfully. They had researched me on FB and saw that my husband had died and they told me that God had killed him. They read my parent’s mission journal and said God had given my mom cancer and my dad a stroke, because none of us had the Holy Spirit in us. Why do I tell you this?
I find them wherever I go. They hate us. It’s not always apparent, but it makes me love the body of Christ so much, the true fellowship you find…
I’ll spare you all the long message, but I did share Acts 16:30-31, and John 3:36; 5:24 and much of John 6 that I love, 28-29, 37, 40, 47 and told her at the end of my post;
….but I’ll tell you in love, this is not the gospel, and not the correct definition of repentance. God bless….
Jack, btw, we’ve all been deceived, so I try to show them mercy, so many YEARS I got Charles Spurgeon devotionals…
I thought something was seriously wrong with me, first I felt guilty for not liking them like everyone else just LOVED Spurgeon. Why didn’t I? Why didn’t I understand him, his points seemed to be all over the place, I don’t know how to describe it, but I can only assume it was the Lord’s tender mercy to protect me. All the church ladies loved it, and I couldn’t reconcile it in my mind. After awhile, I didn’t attempt to even read them, because they just seemed “off” or I was, and I couldn’t do it anymore, I finally couldn’t stand to see them come into my email so I stopped my subscription. This was before I knew even.
Now, I try to encourage people to get into His Word and dump the devotionals and words of men… I get beat up for some things but praise God someone usually hears at some point and if not, well hopefully I’m being refined.
I’m still going to make mistakes, sometimes I ask the Lord, do you still want me speaking, am I to do this?
I just want people to know Him, and they are not going to with that broad way of a laundry list of do’s and don’ts… And if I see someone taking a sip of something poisonous, I just can’t help but tell them STOP!!!
“I thought something was seriously wrong with me, first I felt guilty for not liking them like everyone else just LOVED Spurgeon. Why didn’t I?”
The same thing happened to me. I have never gotten anything from Spurgeon, he always annoyed me, and so it always perplexed me, I just thought I was the “unenlightened and simple-minded one”, and everyone else was infinitely more spiritual than me and could understand what I can’t understand.
The same thing happened again to me with CS Lewis. I’ve never seen the allure of him, the appeal of him, and it had initially bothered me, since everyone else had quoted him across the board. Until I read Lewis’ comments he made, things like “some people are slowly ceasing to be Christians”, and other comments that sounded like purgatory support and water baptism regeneration. Then I realized, like you did, that God was protecting me from Spurgeon and Lewis.
Hi Abe and Holly,
Thanks for your testimonies. I remember in seminary there was an entire set of Spurgeon Sermons in the library. I perused several of them and couldn’t make much sense of any of them. I just wrote the experience off as, “Oh well, he spoke a hundred years ago in another country using archaic verbiage;” so I just left the books alone after that. Maybe, as you say, God was protecting me too.
Bruce
Holly and Abe,
One wonders why anyone can adore Spurgeon and CS Lewis if they really analyze and understand what they have written/spoken.
It seems as if the “Religious Elite,” the “Black Robed Theologians Above Reproach,” the “High Order Church Calvinists” and most Lordship salvationists are the ones who vociferously promote them. Then others fall in line following blindly and religiously, just to be hip before religious hip was hip.
Obviously, we see a follow-the-leader mentality from folks who fall in line without comparing scripture with the totality of what Spurgeon, Lewis and their acolytes are really saying. .
Just so thankful the Lord guided both of you away from their influence.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Jim, I just now saw your post, I apologize, I don’t know how I missed it. I agree completely with you about #7 usually being the biggest hurdle to overcome with them, along with context, seems as if they will never address context, yet I will, and then I try to remember to be in prayer.
Another time, one used Acts 2:37 (being “pricked in their heart”, or in her version “cut to the heart”,) to prove the level of remorse they felt.
I thought of the similar examples in Acts 5 with the group with Gamaliel, and Acts 7 with Stephen. The difference is, when the truth cut them to the heart, were the responses. Or so that is how I see it. In Acts 2, they wanted to know what they should do once they realized their unbelief. After being told of their resistance to believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Prophet, after seeing all His miracles that testified that He was the Messiah. Having just seen the current miracle of Pentecost being the prophecy spoken of in Joel 2. Peter reiterating that Jesus was the prophet that David spoke about, that God raised up, that they all witnessed, the promise of the Holy Spirit poured out which they just saw.
And the final straw…that God made Jesus who they crucified, both Lord and Christ (tell that to the Loadshippers* > God made Him Lord) – *I call that that for the load too heavy to bear, and also for trying to front load and back load the gospel….
But the men in Acts 5 (after hearing the truth) still were hardened in unbelief and sought to kill them when the truth (The Word of God) cut them. The men in Acts 7 wouldn’t/couldn’t bear to hear any more truth, and stopped their ears and rushed Stephen and stoned him with Paul looking on.
The first group’s response was to believe because they “gladly received His Word”….
Abe – et tu?
I really tried to like C.S. Lewis, I bought the Screwtape letters back in the late 70′s and I also tried a few more books, and there was no assurance, yet a sense of being sure of himself, yet his words belied his seeming confidence.
I think I long since got rid of his books, though the ones I’ve run across, I’ve tried to keep and mark “false” for reference, but after a time… no room. Well meaning friends when my husband died, one gave me a book by C.S. Lewis on grief. When he was sick, TWO gave me the Purpose Drivel life…
Same response to that one. Opened it up, read a page or two, and thought, nope, later…
Later never came, I threw one away, and then I realized, find that other one, because it’s amazing the people who will tell you that you have taken something he said out of context, those SAME people who don’t care about context. 
John – please forgive me too, I was so positive I answered you yesterday, but thank you always for your prayers for me, for others as we contend for the truth, for the faith, defending the gospel and laboring together in the harvest. I sure appreciate you all, and thank God for you all.
Jack
You made me laugh and also think of a couple of things when you said this.
It seems as if the “Religious Elite,” the “Black Robed Theologians Above Reproach,” the “High Order Church Calvinists” and most Lordship salvationists are the ones who vociferously promote them. Then others fall in line following blindly and religiously, just to be hip before religious hip was hip.
Chuckling…the things that flew to my mind… blind leading the blind into a ditch, the emperor with no clothes, the pied piper… just so many things came to mind, they are afraid to say “wait a minute, you’re naked”, because if everyone else see’s clohes on the emperor, who are they to say the obvious? It takes a child…
It’s a false sense of security, they feel I guess more pious, more spiritual, and feel safer in the pack, but they may not realize it’s a wolf pack.
Seriously though, I surely thank the Lord for His goodness to me, to protect me from those false teachings, and to forgive me for my laziness to seek Him through other men’s writings (not that you can’t read a book), vs. spending time abiding in His Word.
But I talk to my daughters, and I give them this (along with other) examples. If you fall in love with a man, (my first is getting married Sept 7th) but he has to go away for awhile, and when he calls, don’t you want to pick up each time? But what if you don’t pick up, or when he writes, you allow someone else to read the letters and synopsize for you what he said? Are you really sure those were His Words even if you trust the person? What if they didn’t really tell you what he said, in fact, said some things that didn’t quite sound like him, but it’s been so long since you’ve heard his voice, you just don’t know. And what if these same people tell you how close they are to him, even closer than you, should you listen to them?
I told them, I’m answering the phone. I’m going to read, actually scour the letters myself, and more than once. When you love someone, you study them, you listen to them, you figure out what they like, and you figure out who they are, you get understanding of them. I tell them it’s your relationship with Him, and you should not trust someone else over His own Words. And if you don’t know what He’s said, you can be fooled….
If I had any Spurgeon books to toss out, I would want to write warnings inside, just in case someone went dumpster diving for them.
Jack wrote: “It seems as if the “Religious Elite,” the “Black Robed Theologians Above Reproach,” the “High Order Church Calvinists” and most Lordship salvationists are the ones who vociferously promote them.”
That is so true. There is some kind of “magisterium” that tries to force everyone to be in compliance with it. And it promotes its own. But thank the Lord, the veil was torn.
Loadshippers…a perfectly descriptive term, Holly!
This really brings it home. You’ll be hard-pressed to find a person who can’t relate to that one. Great analogy.
All I can say right now is Wow! Thank You Holy Spirit for opening my eyes as well as allowing me to understand 30 years later why I never wanted to read CS Lewis or lately any of Spurgeon Morning and Evening Devotions. Again like I said to Holly G. I just couldn’t point my finger on it! Also everytime I would get a CSLewis book I would give it away. Didn’t understand back then why. I just wanted to read the book of Revelation! 30 yrs ago I was a babe in Christ. But I have to say the screwtape letters were Interesting and kind of amusing (well at least the part (s) that came to mind at this moment:) Again Thank you guys for not wanting others to be ignorant of “Thus Said The Lord!”
My wife likes CS Lewis. I wonder why God didn’t see fit to ‘protect’ my wife from his influence? Are some people just more cherished and therefore protected by God? I can certainly think of many books I read in the past that I now wish I hadn’t. I struggle to see the point of bragging about not reading this author or that author. Warning people is one thing, but this seems like just a different kind of elitism to me.
Are you serious Jon? I don’t sense any spirit of bragging on anyone’s part. Just simple gratitude. And the charge of “elitism” is awfully harsh, don’t you think?
Jon, I will clarify that I liked some of many who have been in error, so I don’t dare to say that I have any better position than another, and I don’t even know what to say, for me personally, I really know I have nothing except that He gave it to me, just as He does to others, we all have differing gifts too, and need each other. Forgive me personally if I seemed that way, I mean that sincerely. God bless you and your wife.
Jon, I do not know much about CS Lewis, but as for Spurgeon, I am ecstatic that the Holy Spirit led me to recognize his blatant errors regarding the Gospel.
There have been errors from other sources that I either haven’t been aware of or haven’t recognized that have been lovingly pointed out to me by several of the contributors to this website.
I know that any spiritual discernment that I have did not come from me. However, sometimes I find myself amazed that other people cannot see what I see as blatant errors. I try to remind myself that it wasn’t until a couple of years ago that I understood that salvation was the Gift of God, apart from any commitments to reformation on my part. I also pray that I will witness, on ExPreacherman and elsewhere, without being strident or proud, but with the proper motive of concern for brothers and sisters in Christ and for the lost.
Jon,
Thanks for your note. Sorry you took the various statements by your friends here at ExP as anything other than helpful. It was certainly not the intent of anyone here to offend.
Though it is a false assumption, I understand your charge of “elitism.” You should understand that God does not cherish one believer over another. However, every believer in Jesus Christ is unique and, we pray, should be at increasing stages of growth in God’s Word and discernment. Everyone’s knowledge and application of Scripture differs – but the Lord, through His Holy Spirit guides every believer to Truth. However that guidance is ineffective if we don’t recognize it or if we ignore His leading.
No doubt some here read many books by a myriad of authors, some Christian, some secular and some pretending to be Christian.
The problem is when we consider books as Christian doctrine equal with or supplemental to God’s Word.
Our purpose here at ExP is to share the Truth of God’s Word in love and warn that there is error in the world of “Christianity.” Be prepared for it, recognize it and avoid it.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
John thank you for your comment . I agree with Califgracer & Holly.
If it seemed like I was bragging or being puffed up that was not my intent. Through experience many years ago I learned of God’s Grace without works! At first like some others I tried to please God by works , but missed the important lesson about his Grace! I would always hear Faith without works is dead( James 2:14-26) So when I fell & expected The Lord to punished me ( just like my earthly father would) The Lord showed me Grace! I was amazed ! That’s when the Holy Spirit revealed to me God’s love towards me in spite of my performance! Grace had nothing to do with me but Jesus ! When the Father looks at me He sees His Son Jesus! I know I’m saved by Grace & Grace alone! I work not to be saved but because I’m saved! What I’m trying to say is the discernment was there, I just couldn’t put what The Lord allowed to take place into words. I’m glad The Lord uses you & others to make it clear so that we can pass it on to others of like faith. Not puffed up, have elitism or bragging, just someone who Loves Jesus & does not want by the Grace of God to be ignorant of His Word!
Terry,
Welcome!! We are happy to have you here.
We likewise appreciate your growth, discernment and understanding of God’s Word. We pray you will continue to read and comment at ExP.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
My intent was not to be harsh to anyone. I thought of how discouraged my wife might feel if she read some of the previous posts and it upset me. I’m grateful for any amount of discernment the Lord has given me, even if it’s not much. I’m not a Lewis devotee by any stretch, but I don’t see any conclusive evidence put forth to condemn him either. One unsubstantiated quote is all I’ve seen here so far. I’m not familiar with all his work but I’ve never heard that quote before. I was however more concerned about my wife than Lewis.(granted no one here intentionally sought to hurt her feelings.)
John, I very much appreciate your continued determination to witness without being strident or proud. I hope I can do the same.I know I am not immune to pride any more than anyone else. I also appreciated Terry’s testimony very much. I too have experienced God’s beautiful Grace when i expected His punishment instead. I certainly have nothing against gratitude if that is all that people were trying to express. I also very much agree with Jack that books are not in any way equal to Scripture.
I am sorry Holly if I misjudged your intentions also. You are a very sincere and kind person and I appreciate your comments on this site.
Jon, my intentions, trust me, were not to be thinking anything other than gratefulness at having His Word to test these things, and answered prayer of people to go to for advice.
Many times I wish that I still had the benefit of a husband to go to for advice about things like this, or even my two clogged drains today and yesterday. But our lives all progress differently, people go to be with Him earlier than we wish, or maybe some get divorced when they didn’t want to, or some never had the blessing. Maybe the Lord has taken over in that area to help me.
One thing I think in living in an area with a great amount of deception in my town, I have no one to tell, but Him about my troubles in this area, at least not much locally. So, I started “proving all things”, just one at a time. For whatever reason our lives are different in other areas, all I can say is that again I have nothing except for what He chooses to give me and I desire His will, and when I don’t, I desire He helps me want to want to do the right thing.
I can only encourage you to check on your wive’s behalf too, you have a wonderful blessing, since there are two of you to be together, to pray together and to discuss these things, and to dig together.
I have been hurt deeply by error in my churches, and have had to move more than once, and have had to speak when others would not, when they stayed silent. More than once as a widow to the pastor, more than once to many a pastor, and more than once to a Bible teacher. I will tell you I was not well received, and I think if husband was still alive it would have been a different matter, but no matter, He is with me and He loves me and will take care of me.
So I guess for me, I have to try twice as hard to make sure I have the answer right before I speak not having the multitude of counsel (plus just all the distractions of kids, work, and being the one they rely on), and it’s not easy trust me.
I do not mean to make you feel badly, just know, it’s different for all of us in different areas, we’re going to miss, and I don’t know how I appeared to sound, but didn’t mean a thing by it. I wasn’t even to come back today, but felt maybe I should answer should I need to. God bless you all.
By the way, I meant to offer that if you, or anyone would like more info on C.S. Lewis’ errors, including his continuing in some of his Catholic practices and beliefs, even to the end. He, like Bonhoeffer, also believed some of the Bible was myth. I basically just do research and try now to keep it so I share with others should they want to know.
I’m very sorry for your loss Holly. I can only imagine how hard that must be. I’m very lucky to still have my spouse with me to face the challenges of this life.
I can relate to being hurt by different churches though. I was given a book to read from the pastor no less. Can’t remember the title but it was by John Bradshaw. From what I remember of it, it combined psychology and new age mysticism. I had an uneasy feeling about it but went along with it thinking it was going to help heal me.(it didn’t) One of the books I regret ever touching. Later on I added my voice to a group in the church voicing concerns over the pastor. In counseling he had advised me to drink alcohol to loosen up and get over my shyness. The church split over this and the pastor was basically paid off to leave. A church elder threatened me to show up to a meeting with the pastor to discuss things “or else”. The pastor never admitted to doing anything wrong to me or anyone else as far as I know. I didn’t go to church much after this.
Sorry to hear that Jon, and yes, you are blessed, but so was I, and so I very thankful what for what I had, what I have now, even the clogged drains:) and what I will have in the future.
Everything is for a reason, so I thank Him in the difficulties and even allowing me to see so many deceptions, it’s keeping me proving all things, although I fail and forget and have to humble myself as another in the body catches it for me (for which I’m grateful).
From yoga in one church, to Brennan Manning being the recommended book reading of the month, another place recommended Thomas Merton, to even this guy uses Henri Nouwen frequently (who denies Christ is the only way). Family members who have chastised me over Billy Graham, a niece defriended me, one of my sisters was very angry at me regarding Rick Warren years ago (I praise God she knows now), and one pastor has decided to use me as a “case study” regarding a conversation we had over Rick Warren. I went straight to the horse’s mouth and told him all the things missing from Warren’s site, yet all the things you could find. He told me that I was a false accuser and a slanderer, and was as a teaching pastor, a card carrying member in good standing at the Baptist church, was going to use me as an example to all of his students being raised up as pastors, to watch out for over-zealous women like me.
I went from church, to church, to my childhood church offshoot, and to a great Bible study until John Macarthur started being introduced, and now another good Bible study and yet not really having a church. Another person I went to my Christian High School with has a huge church he pastors in the valley, he is a dominionist and on the board of Jewish voice ministries, and I won’t bore you with the details, just more there…
My one friend who is an atheist finally attended after the death of my husband at the last church I have attended (within the church service itself), I won’t belabor here because others have heard it, it’s just that I had been praying for her for so long and she had no interest in coming, and I think came to be with me during my grief. So I was so thrilled, and yet, this new guy started speaking of “Pastor” Paul Yonggi Cho (of all people), and also Brennan Manning and Philip Yancey and the music minister had recommended a book by Eugene Peterson. I couldn’t hold back the tears, I was sick, it was such a long service it seemed and I know my friend saw me crying as tears were streaming down my face, but thankfully didn’t ask, assuming I am sure that it had to do with losing Gilbert.
I can’t count, don’t want to even all these incidents. Some in family consider me negative and think I should just concentrate on the gospel. (Which trust me I love, and love to share, through speaking, through my pictures, through whoever will hear). I don’t mind the hurt so much, or loneliness, or patronization, even downright insults, yet here’s the final line with me: If I offend another believer I respect, like you, then I am concerned that too much of me may be surfacing and/or that I am not being prayerful with my words (so forgive yet another long explanation from me).
That’s just one thing I don’t want to happen, so thank you for believing what I said about my intent.
What betrayal with your pastor after sharing your own weakness, so sorry. Anyways, we just keep pressing forward…