I recently had a very interesting and distressing back-and-forth commenting session with a “friend” and others on Facebook. The subject was “Are we under The Law”?
Most of the spelling, that my tired eyes could find, were corrected and I will use synonyms to protect my friends. I pray this format of reporting and what was said is clear.. And I apologize for the extreme verbosity, but I have cut some of the less pertinent statements out.
== Begin the post and comments ==
“Charlie” the original poster wrote the following:
(Christ said) Matt.5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Apostle Paul says) Roman 7:15-16 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
(Paul says) 1 Timothy1:8 We know that the law is good,if a man use it lawfully.
So “Charlie” then concludes: Hmmmm. ……… Sounds like we are still under the Laws.
A reader then said: No, but many people act like they are above it…
I, Jack then quoted the following verses:
“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17
“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” Romans 3:20
“And by Him [Jesus Christ] all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” Acts 13:39
“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” Galatians 3:24-25
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” Romans 3:28
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” Romans 10:4
And many more!! Believers in Jesus Christ are not under the Law but Grace for salvation.
Then “Charlie” wrote: Jack, if you knowingly BREAK the commandments and are unrepentant, are you telling me you will be saved anyway? While you can do nothing to be saved, you can do a lot of things to NOT be saved, would be my poor understanding.
“Charlie” continued: To put a point on it, a friend of mine up north was a drinker and womanizer, as in he would go out partying and wake up the next morning with a new “friend”. When I suggested it was the wrong way to be he gave me understanding that he believed in JC so didn’t have to worry about the small stuff. So how does that work Jack??
Then I wrote: “Charlie”, we never know a person’s mind.. only what Jesus Christ says – that He gives us ETERNAL LIFE (without end) when we trust Him – and he guarantees discipline – not hell for disobedient believers. It is called eternally secure in Jesus Christ.
Then “Charlie” answered: Jack, any references for this??
Than I said in answer to “Charlie”: All the references above speak to that. What specifically do you mean, other than the verses I have quoted above? Jesus says in John 10:28″And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.“
Then a lady reader “Clara” wrote: To have eternal life you have to be saved and live a Christian life.
“Ginny” shouted: AMEN “Clara”!!
Then “Charlie” wrote: Jack, that doesn’t say that you can’t jump out of his hand. People apparently are getting the idea that the ten commandments and the Noaide [sic] laws are meaningless and they can do whatever they want once they have given themselves to Christ. What they don’t understand is that accepting these Laws IS part of giving themselves to Christ as that is accepting his teachings along with believing in him. How can you believe in someone and not accept their teachings?? I don’t know, but, some of this new wave [stuff] seems to teach that and my friend seemed to believe it.
Then I wrote: Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.“
Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”
I continued: The very meaning of Grace is “undeserved.” If, as “Clara” says, “To have eternal life you have to be saved and live a Christian life” then we are depending on our works (Christian life) to be justified before God.
I continued: “Charlie” there is no scripture that says we can “jump out” of God’s hand. That statement would mean God would be lying when He said we have eternal life when we trust Jesus Christ as Savior.
Ephesians 2:10 says we should do good works — because we are saved — not to be saved.
We don’t give our life or anything else to God in exchange for eternal life.. it IS FREE! (Ephesians 2:8-9 above). We simply and honestly believe/trust in Jesus to be our Savior and then entrust our eternity to His care and then He does the keeping for all eternity. (1 Peter 1:5)
I am glad the Lord does not judge anyone’s salvation based on their Christian life, but only on their faith in the SAVIOR, Jesus Christ. HE alone saves — and we can never save ourselves (or even help save ourselves).
With your philosophy could a person ever say, “I have eternal life”? No. Because this person would be depending on their good works which will never suffice and never save.
I continued: Read my Blog from yesterday, “Am I Presumptuous?”:
Then “Julia” chimed in: I was saved at the tender age of 6 yrs. old. I was raised as a Baptist. All my life I believed, “Once saved always saved”. I do not believe that any more. So many times I saw and I joined in to a re-dedication of my life, at our church. What’s the difference in that and being saved again? I could never figure that one out. John 17:1-5 Says that Salvation includes gaining a relationship with GOD. and Acts 2:37-38 Is saying receiving salvation means, WE MUST TURN FROM OUR SINS [sic]. Also, there is a difference in believing there is a God and believing in God…Asking Jesus to forgive us of our sins and asking HIM into our hearts to be our “Personal” savior is believing IN God… From my own experience, I can not be saved and live in the world, or hang with people that do live in the world. Our salvation was obtained by Jesus’ blood. He rescued us from Satan’s dominion, which is the world. As Christians, we are suppose to serve HIM. Please HIM worship HIM.. If we can’t give up the thing of this world, we can’t do what God wants us to do. We are to be a witness for HIM. Living in the world, is a stumbling block. Our walk and talk lets others see what we really are. If we live for the Lord and do the Lords work, they shall know us by our fruits. If we live in the world and do as the world does, we are not gratifying our Lord and Savior, we are gratifying ourselves and Satan. BTW, the Old Testament Law was done away with when Jesus died on the cross for our sins. We are no longer under the old law. We are under the blood bought grace of Jesus Christ our Lord!
[Jack - I did not answer this because of so many doctrinal errors that it would require pages to explain].
Then “Charlie” retorted: Jack, you are confusing the idea of qualifying and disqualifying. I can’t qualify. There is nothing I can do that could save myself. I can still disqualify myself by ignoring his words. What you are stating, taken to an extreme, says that every individual no matter how much he rejects the Lord will be saved anyway. What then of the scripture telling us of those who will not be saved??
The I answer “Charlie”: “He that believeth on Him [Jesus Christ] is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:18 When we trust Jesus Christ, He saves us — not we ourselves. Everyone has the choice to believe in Jesus Christ or — reject Him. The difference between Heaven and Hell is whether or not we have put our trust in Him to SAVE us and thankfully it never depends upon our life or works.
If it were not for the Lord giving us the opportunity to trust The Savior to eternally SAVE us and give us His righteousness, we would all go to hell. A believer is one who has become a Child of God by faith, imbued with His righteousness. God will never send His child to hell or He would be sending his own indwelling Holy Spirit to hell.. A disobedient child of God may be chastened or taken home to the Lord because of disobedience, but never hell. If our performance or obedience to the law could get us to Heaven, then Christ died in vain. Galatians 2:21 “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”
“Willie” says: “Clara” It sounds like you mean limited Grace and perhaps that our righteousness before God is worth something as long as we live up to an unknowable standard. How do you reconcile “under the blood bought grace” with losing salvation. At what point is the” blood bought grace” worthless?
“Charlie” then says: Willie, you and everyone else are more than welcome to put in your beliefs or opinions,. This is an area that I am very confused about. I may argue this way or that but I do not know.
“Dinny” chimes in: In that case… I agree with “Charlie” here. I am confused by the once saved method. What about the possibility of being blotted out of the “lambs book of life”. It seems in order to be blotted out our name would have to be written in. Paul says to be vigilant, what reason would there be if our salvation can’t be stolen from us? Good thread, sorry to dissent, “Willie.”
“Clara” says: A former employer of mine said she was saved, however made it a routine to go out drinking, and living in the world. She believed in God and said she was saved. Jesus said,” IF YOU LOVE ME, FEED MY SHEEP” keep my commandments…How can we be saved and NOT serve HIM? I will reiterate, we are to restrain from the world and thing of the world. We can not serve God and man. If we are truly Saved, we will not go out into the world and do worldly things. Matt.7:21 (true disciples). Not all people who sound religious are really godly. They may refer to me as Lord, but they still won’t enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The decisive issue is whether they obey my Father in heaven. Colossians 3:5-8 So, put to death the sinful earthly things lurking within you. Have NOTHING to do with sexual sin, impurity, lust and shameful desires, Don’t be greedy for the good things of this life, for that is idolatry. 6. God’s terrible anger will come upon those who do such things. 7. You used to do them when your life was still part of this world, 8 But now is the time to get rid of anger, rage, malicious behavior, slander and dirty language. Vs. 16..Let the words of Christ, in all their richness, live in your hearts and make you wise, Use HIS words to teach and counsel each other. Sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs TO GOD with thankful hearets. 17..AND, whatever you do or say, let it be as a representative of the LORD JESUS, all the while giving thanks through HIM to GOD THE FATHER! If we say we are saved and live in the world, we will not see the kingdom of heaven. Not everyone that says Lord Lord, will enter the Kingdom of heaven. If we are truly saved, we will want to serve the Lord and HIM only will we serve! you cannot walk with the world and with God.. therefore, maybe you can lose your salvation, or perhaps, there was no real commitment to God to begin with…..????????????
==== End of discussion ====
At this point, sadly, I gave up, seeing I was approaching a dead end where most of these folks paid no attention to Scripture but their own preconceived ideas of their religion.
It is such a shame that so much of the “Christian” world believes that good works, etc will qualify them to have or keep eternal life. Obviously we need more Biblical, doctrinally sound missionaries to “Christian” churches here in the US.
Do you have an opinion??